台積電 ADR (TSM) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

(spoken in foreign language)

（用外語說）

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TSMC's third quarter 2025 earnings conference call. This is Jeff Su, TSMC's Director of Investor Relations and your host for today. TSMC is hosting our earnings conference call via live audio webcast through the company's website at www.tsmc.com, where you can also download the earnings release materials. If you are joining us through the conference call, your dial-in lines are in listen-only mode.

大家下午好，歡迎參加台積電2025年第三季財報電話會議。我是台積電投資者關係總監 Jeff Su，也是今天的主持人。台積電將透過公司網站 www.tsmc.com 以現場音訊網路直播的方式舉辦我們的收益電話會議，您也可以在該網站上下載收益發布資料。如果您透過電話會議加入我們，您的撥入線路將處於只聽模式。

The format for today's event will be as follows: first, TSMC's Senior Vice President and CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, will summarize our operations in the third quarter 2025, followed by our guidance for the fourth quarter 2025. Afterwards, Mr. Huang and TSMC's Chairman and CEO, Dr. C.C. Wei, will jointly provide the company's key messages. Then we will open the line for Q&A.

今天活動的形式如下：首先，台積電資深副總裁兼財務長黃溫德爾先生將總結我們在 2025 年第三季的營運情況，然後介紹我們對 2025 年第四季的指導。隨後，黃先生將與台積電董事長兼執行長魏哲家博士共同傳遞公司重要訊息。然後我們將開通問答熱線。

As usual, I would like to remind everybody that today's discussions may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to significant risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results to differ materially from those contained in the forward-looking statements. Please refer to the safe harbor notice that appears in our press release.

像往常一樣，我想提醒大家，今天的討論可能包含前瞻性陳述，這些陳述受重大風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述中的結果有重大差異。請參閱我們新聞稿中的安全港通知。

And now I would like to turn the call over to TSMC's CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, for the summary of operations and the current quarter guidance.

現在，我想將電話轉給台積電財務長黃文德先生，請他介紹營運狀況和本季業績指引。

Thank you, Jeff. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. My presentation will start with financial highlights for the third quarter 2025. After that, I will provide the guidance for the fourth quarter 2025.

謝謝你，傑夫。大家下午好。感謝您今天加入我們。我的演講將從 2025 年第三季的財務亮點開始。之後，我將提供2025年第四季的指導。

Third quarter revenue increased 6% sequentially in NT as our business was supported by strong demand for our leading-edge process technologies. In US dollar terms, revenue increased 10.1% sequentially to USD33.1 billion, slightly ahead of our third quarter guidance.

由於我們的業務受到市場對我們尖端製程技術的強勁需求的支持，第三季北領地營收季增 6%。以美元計算，營收季增 10.1%，達到 331 億美元，略高於我們第三季的預期。

Gross margin increased 0.9 percentage points sequentially to 59.5%, primarily due to cost improvement efforts and a higher capacity utilization rate, partially offset by an unfavorable foreign exchange rate and dilution from our overseas fabs. Accordingly, operating margin increased 1.0 percentage points sequentially to 50.6%. Overall, our third quarter EPS was TWD17.44, up 39% year-over-year, and ROE was 37.8%.

毛利率環比增長 0.9 個百分點至 59.5%，主要由於成本改進努力和產能利用率提高，但不利的外匯匯率和海外晶圓廠的稀釋部分抵消了這一增長。因此，營業利益率較上季成長1.0個百分點，達到50.6%。整體而言，我們第三季的每股盈餘為新台幣17.44元，較去年同期成長39%，股本回報率為37.8%。

Now let's move on to revenue by technology. 3-nanometer process technology contributed 23% of wafer revenue in the third quarter, while 5-nanometer and 7-nanometer accounted for 37% and 14%, respectively. Advanced technologies, defined as 7-nanometer and below, accounted for 74% of wafer revenue.

現在讓我們來看看按技術劃分的收入。 3 奈米製程技術在第三季貢獻了 23​​% 的晶圓收入，而 5 奈米和 7 奈米分別佔 37% 和 14%。先進技術（定義為 7 奈米及以下）佔晶圓收入的 74%。

Moving on to revenue contribution by platform. HPC remained flat quarter-over-quarter to account for 57% of our third quarter revenue. Smartphone increased 19% to account for 30%. IoT increased 20% to account for 5%. Automotive increased 18% to account for 5%. And DCE decreased 20% to account for 1%.

接下來討論平台的所得貢獻。HPC 與上一季持平，占我們第三季營收的 57%。智慧型手機成長19%，佔30%。物聯網成長20%，佔5%。汽車產業成長18%，佔5%。其中大商所下跌20%，佔1%。

Moving on to the balance sheet. We ended the third quarter with cash and marketable securities of TWD2.8 trillion or USD90 billion. On the liability side, current liability decreased by TWD101 billion quarter-over-quarter, mainly due to the decrease of TWD112 billion in accrued liabilities and others as we paid out 2025 provisional tax of TWD136 billion.

繼續討論資產負債表。截至第三季末，我們的現金和有價證券總額為 2.8 兆新台幣或 900 億美元。負債方面，流動負債較上一季減少1,010億新台幣，主要由於支付2025年預繳稅1,360億新台幣，應計負債及其他減少1,120億新台幣。

In terms of financial ratios, accounts receivable turnover days increased 2 days to 25 days. Days of inventory decreased 2 days to 74 days due to strong shipment in N3 and N5.

財務比率方面，應收帳款週轉天數增加2天至25天。由於 N3 和 N5 出貨強勁，庫存天數減少 2 天至 74 天。

Regarding cash flow and CapEx, during the third quarter, we generated about TWD427 billion in cash from operations, spent TWD287 billion in CapEx and distributed TWD117 billion for fourth quarter '24 cash dividend. Overall, our cash balance increased TWD106 billion to TWD2.5 trillion at the end of the quarter. In US dollar terms, our third quarter capital expenditures totaled USD9.7 billion.

關於現金流和資本支出，第三季度，我們從經營中產生了約 4270 億新台幣的現金，資本支出為 2870 億新台幣，並派發了 1170 億新台幣的 24 年第四季度現金股息。整體而言，本季末我們的現金餘額增加了1,060億新台幣，達到2.5兆新台幣。以美元計算，我們第三季的資本支出總計97億美元。

I have finished my financial summary. Now let's turn to our current quarter guidance. Based on the current business outlook, we expect our fourth quarter revenue to be between USD32.2 billion and USD33.4 billion, which represents a 1% sequential decrease or a 22% year-over-year increase at the midpoint. Based on the exchange rate assumption of USD1 to TWD30.6, gross margin is expected to be between 59% and 61%, operating margin between 49% and 51%. This concludes my financial presentation.

我已經完成了我的財務總結。現在讓我們來看看本季的指導。根據目前的業務前景，我們預計第四季營收將在322億美元至334億美元之間，季減1%，年減22%。以1美元兌30.6新台幣的匯率假設計算，毛利率預計在59%至61%之間，營業利潤率預計在49%至51%之間。我的財務報告到此結束。

Now let me turn to our key messages. I will start by talking about our third quarter '25 and fourth quarter '25 profitability. Compared to second quarter, our third quarter gross margin increased by 90 basis points sequentially to 59.5%, primarily due to cost improvement efforts and a higher overall capacity utilization rate, partially offset by margin dilution from our overseas fabs and an unfavorable foreign exchange rate.

現在讓我談談我們的關鍵訊息。我將首先談談我們 2025 年第三季和第四季的獲利能力。與第二季相比，我們第三季的毛利率環比增長了 90 個基點，達到 59.5%，這主要歸功於成本改進工作和更高的整體產能利用率，但部分被我們海外晶圓廠的利潤率稀釋和不利的外匯匯率所抵消。

Compared to our third quarter guidance, our actual gross margin exceeded the high end of the range provided three months ago by 200 basis points, mainly as the actual third quarter exchange rate was $1 to TWD29.91 compared to our guidance of $1 to TWD29.

與我們的第三季預期相比，我們的實際毛利率超出了三個月前提供的範圍的高端 200 個基點，主要是因為第三季的實際匯率為 1 美元兌 29.91 新台幣，而我們的預期匯率為 1 美元兌 29 新台幣。

In addition, we also delivered better-than-expected cost improvement efforts. We have just guided our fourth quarter gross margin to increase by 50 basis points to 60% at the midpoint, primarily driven by a more favorable foreign exchange rate, partially offset by continued dilution from our overseas fabs.

此外，我們也取得了超乎預期的成本改進成果。我們剛剛預計第四季度毛利率將成長 50 個基點，達到 60%，這主要得益於更有利的外匯匯率，但部分抵消了海外晶圓廠持續稀釋的影響。

While the cost of overseas fabs remain higher, thanks to the company's overall larger scale, we now expect the gross margin dilution from the ramp-up of our overseas fabs to be closer to 2% in the second half of 2025. For the full year 2025, we now expect it to be between 1% to 2% as compared to 2% to 3% previously.

雖然海外晶圓廠的成本仍然較高，但由於公司整體規模較大，我們現在預計，到 2025 年下半年，海外晶圓廠產能提升帶來的毛利率稀釋將接近 2%。對於 2025 年全年，我們預計成長率將在 1% 至 2% 之間，而先前的預期為 2% 至 3%。

Looking ahead, we continue to forecast the gross margin dilution from the ramp-up of our overseas fabs in the next several years to be 2% to 3% in the early stages and widen to 3% to 4% in the latter stages. We will leverage our increasing size in Arizona and work on our operations to improve the cost structure. We will also continue to work closely with our customers and suppliers to manage the impact.

展望未來，我們繼續預測未來幾年海外晶圓廠產能提升將導致毛利率稀釋，初期為 2% 至 3%，後期將擴大至 3% 至 4%。我們將利用我們在亞利桑那州不斷擴大的規模，並致力於改善我們的營運成本結構。我們也將繼續與客戶和供應商密切合作，以控制影響。

Overall, with our fundamental competitive advantages of manufacturing technology leadership and large-scale production base, we expect TSMC to be the most efficient and cost-effective manufacturer in every region that we operate.

總體而言，憑藉製造技術領先地位和大規模生產基地的根本競爭優勢，我們預計台積電將成為我們營運的每個地區最高效、最具成本效益的製造商。

Now let me make some comments on our 2025 CapEx. As the structural AI-related demand continues to be very strong, we continue to invest to support our customers' growth. We are narrowing the range of our 2025 CapEx to be between USD40 billion and USD42 billion as compared to USD38 billion to USD42 billion previously. About 70% of the capital budget will be allocated for advanced process technologies, about 10% to 20% will be spent for specialty technologies, and about 10% to 20% will be spent for advanced packaging, testing, mask making and others.

現在，讓我對我們的 2025 年資本支出發表一些評論。由於結構性人工智慧相關需求持續強勁，我們將繼續投資以支援客戶的成長。我們將 2025 年資本支出範圍縮小至 400 億美元至 420 億美元之間，而先前的目標是 380 億美元至 420 億美元。約70%的資本預算將用於先進製程技術，約10%至20%將用於特殊技術，約10%至20%將用於先進封裝、測試、掩模製造等。

At TSMC, a higher level of capital expenditures is always correlated with higher growth opportunities in the following years. Even as we invest for the future growth with this higher level of CapEx spending in 2025, we remain committed to delivering profitable growth to our shareholders. We also remain committed to a sustainable and steadily increasing cash dividend per share on both an annual and quarterly basis.

在台積電，較高的資本支出水準總是與未來幾年更高的成長機會有關。即使我們在 2025 年以更高的資本支出水準投資於未來的成長，我們仍然致力於為股東帶來獲利成長。我們也將繼續致力於實現年度和季度每股現金股利的可持續和穩定成長。

Now let me turn the microphone over to C.C.

現在讓我把麥克風交給 C.C.

Thank you, Wendell. Good afternoon, everyone. First, let me start with our near-term demand outlook. We concluded our third quarter with revenue of USD33.1 billion, slightly above our guidance in US dollar terms, mainly due to the strong demand for our leading edge process technologies.

謝謝你，溫德爾。大家下午好。首先，讓我先談談我們近期的需求前景。我們第三季的營收為 331 億美元，以美元計算略高於我們的預期，這主要歸功於市場對我們尖端製程技術的強勁需求。

Moving into fourth quarter 2025, we expect our business to be supported by continued strong demand for our leading-edge process technologies. We continue to observe robust AI-related demand throughout 2025, while non-AI end market segments have bottomed out and are seeing a mild recovery.

進入 2025 年第四季度，我們預計我們的業務將受到對我們前沿製程技術的持續強勁需求的支持。我們將繼續觀察到 2025 年全年人工智慧相關需求的強勁成長，而非人工智慧終端市場領域已觸底並正在溫和復甦。

Supported by our strong technology differentiation and broad customer base, we now expect our full year 2025 revenue to increase by close to mid-30s percent year-over-year in US dollar term.

憑藉強大的技術差異化和廣泛的客戶群，我們預計 2025 年全年營收將以美元計算年增近 30%。

While we have not observed any change in our customers' behavior so far, we understand there are uncertainties and risk from the potential impact of tariff policies, especially in consumer-related and price-sensitive market segments.

雖然到目前為止我們還沒有觀察到客戶行為的任何變化，但我們了解到關稅政策的潛在影響存在不確定性和風險，特別是在與消費者相關和價格敏感的細分市場。

As such, we will remain mindful of the potential impact and be prudent in our business planning going into 2026, while continuing to invest for the future mega trend. Amidst the uncertainties, we will also continue to focus on the fundamentals of our business, that is technology leadership, manufacturing excellence and customer trust, to further strengthen our competitive position.

因此，我們將繼續關注潛在的影響，並謹慎地制定 2026 年的業務規劃，同時繼續為未來的大趨勢進行投資。面對不確定性，我們也將繼續專注於業務的基本面，即技術領先、製造卓越和客戶信任，以進一步加強我們的競爭地位。

Next, let me talk about the AI demand outlook and TSMC's capacity planning process disciplines. Recent developments in AI market continue to be very positive. The explosive growth in token volume demonstrated increasing consumer AI model adoption, which means more and more computation is needed, leading to more leading-edge silicon demand. Companies such as TSMC are leveraging AI internally to drive greater productivity and efficiency to create more value. As such, enterprise AI is another source of demand. In addition, we continue to observe the rising emergence of sovereign AI.

接下來我來講AI需求展望和台積電的產能規劃流程紀律。人工智慧市場近期的發展持續非常積極。代幣數量的爆炸性增長表明消費者對人工智慧模型的採用率不斷提高，這意味著需要越來越多的計算，從而導致對尖端矽片的需求增加。台積電等公司正在內部利用人工智慧來提高生產力和效率，從而創造更多價值。因此，企業人工智慧是另一個需求來源。此外，我們繼續觀察主權人工智慧的興起。

We are also happy to see continued strong outlook from our customers. In addition, we directly receive very strong signals from our customers' customers, requesting the capacity to support their business. Thus, our conversion in the AI megatrend is strengthening, and we believe the demand for semiconductor will continue to be very fundamental.

我們也很高興看到客戶繼續保持強勁的前景。此外，我們直接從客戶的客戶收到非常強烈的訊號，要求有能力支持他們的業務。因此，我們在人工智慧大趨勢中的轉變正在加強，我們相信對半導體的需求將繼續非常重要。

As a key enabler of AI applications, TSMC's biggest responsibility is to prepare the most advanced technologies and necessary capacity to support our customers' growth. To address the structural increase in the long-term market demand profile, TSMC employs a disciplined and thorough capacity planning system. Externally, we work closely with our customers and our customers' customers to plan our capacity. We have more than 500 different customers across all the end market segments. In addition, as process technology complexity increases, the engagement lead time with customer is now at least two to three years in advance. Therefore, we probably get the deepest and widest look possible in the industry.

作為AI應用的關鍵推動者，台積電最大的責任是準備好最先進的技術和必要的產能來支持客戶的成長。為了因應長期市場需求的結構性成長，台積電採用了嚴謹而周密的產能規劃系統。在外部，我們與我們的客戶以及客戶的客戶密切合作，以規劃我們的產能。我們在所有終端市場領域擁有超過 500 個不同的客戶。此外，隨著製程技術複雜性的增加，與客戶的合作交付週期現在至少提前了兩到三年。因此，我們可能對該行業有了最深入、最廣泛的了解。

Internally, our planning system involves multiple teams across several functions to assess and evaluate the market demand from both top-down and bottom-up approach to determine the appropriate capacity to build. This is especially important when we have such high forecasted demand from AI-related business.

在內部，我們的規劃系統涉及多個職能部門的多個團隊，以自上而下和自下而上的方式評估和評估市場需求，以確定適當的建設能力。當我們預測人工智慧相關業務的需求如此之高時，這一點尤其重要。

As the world’s most reliable and effective capacity provider, we will continue to work closely with our customers to invest in leading edge, specialty and advanced packaging technologies to support their growth. We will also remain disciplined and thorough in our capacity planning approach to ensure we deliver profitable growth for our shareholders.

作為全球最可靠、最有效的產能供應商，我們將繼續與客戶密切合作，投資前沿、專業和先進的封裝技術，以支持他們的成長。我們也將持續嚴格、徹底地進行產能規劃，以確保為股東帶來獲利成長。

Now let me talk about TSMC's global manufacturing footprint update. All our overseas decisions are based on our customers' needs, as they value some geographic flexibility and a necessary level of government support. This is also to maximize the value for our shareholders. With the strong collaboration and support from our leading US customers and the US federal, state, and city government, we continue to speed up our capacity expansion in Arizona. We are making tangible progress and executing well to our plan.

現在我來談談台積電全球製造佈局的更新。我們所有的海外決策都是基於客戶的需求，因為他們重視一定的地理彈性和必要的政府支援。這也是為了實現股東價值的最大化。在美國主要客戶以及美國聯邦、州和市政府的大力配合和支持下，我們持續加快亞利桑那州的產能擴張。我們正在取得切實進展並順利執行我們的計劃。

In addition, we are preparing to upgrade our technologies faster to N2 and more advanced process technologies in Arizona, given the strong AI-related demand from our customers. Furthermore, we are close to securing a second large piece of land nearby to support our current expansion plans and provide more flexibility in response to the very strong multi-year AI-related demand. Our plan will enable TSMC to scale up to an independent GIGAFAB cluster in Arizona to support the needs of our leading-edge customers in smartphone, AI and HPC applications.

此外，鑑於客戶對人工智慧相關的強勁需求，我們正準備在亞利桑那州將我們的技術更快地升級到 N2 和更先進的製程技術。此外，我們即將在附近獲得第二塊大片土地，以支持我們目前的擴張計劃，並提供更大的靈活性，以應對多年來非常強勁的人工智慧相關需求。我們的計劃將使台積電能夠擴展到亞利桑那州的獨立 GIGAFAB 集群，以支援我們在智慧型手機、人工智慧和 HPC 應用領域的前沿客戶的需求。

Next, in Japan, thanks to the strong support from the Japan Central, Prefectural, and local government, our first specialty fab in Kumamoto has already started volume production in late 2024 with very good yield. The construction of our second fab has begun, and the ramp schedule will be based on our customers' needs and market conditions.

其次，在日本，由於日本中央、縣和地方政府的大力支持，我們位於熊本的第一家專業工廠已於 2024 年底開始批量生產，並且產量非常好。我們第二家工廠的建設已經開始，產能提升計畫將根據客戶需求和市場情況而定。

In Europe, we have received strong commitment from European Commission and the German federal, state, and city governments. Construction of our specialty fab in Dresden, Germany has also started, and we are progressing smoothly with our plans. The ramp schedule will be based on our customers' need and conditions.

在歐洲，我們得到了歐盟委員會以及德國聯邦、州和市政府的堅定承諾。我們位於德國德勒斯登的專業工廠的建設也已開始，我們的計畫進展順利。坡道時間表將根據我們客戶的需求和條件而定。

In Taiwan, with support from the Taiwan government, we are preparing for multiple phases of 2-nanometer fab in both Hsinchu and Kaohsiung Science Parks. We will continue to invest in leading edge and advanced packaging facilities in Taiwan over the next several years. By expanding our global footprint while continuing to invest in Taiwan, TSMC can continue to be the trusted technology and capacity provider of the global logic IC industry for years to come.

在台灣，在台灣政府的支持下，我們正在新竹和高雄科學園區籌備多期2奈米晶圓廠。未來幾年，我們將繼續投資台灣尖端和先進的封裝設施。透過擴大我們的全球影響力並繼續在台灣投資，台積電可以在未來幾年繼續成為全球邏輯積體電路產業值得信賴的技術和產能供應商。

Finally, let me talk about our N2 and A16 status. Our 2-nanometer and A16 technologies is addressing the insatiable demand for energy-efficient computing, and almost all innovators are working with TSMC. N2 is well on track for volume production later this quarter, with good yield. We expect a faster ramp in 2026, fueled by both smartphone and HPC AI applications.

最後說一下我們的N2和A16的情況。我們的 2 奈米和 A16 技術正在滿足對節能運算的無限需求，幾乎所有創新者都在與台積電合作。N2 的量產進度良好，本季末產量可望達到預期。我們預計，在智慧型手機和 HPC AI 應用程式的推動下，2026 年 AI 成長將更快。

With our strategy of continuous enhancements, we'll also introduce N2P as an extension of our N2 family. N2P features further performance and power benefits on top of N2 and volume production scheduled for second half '26.

透過持續改進的策略，我們也將推出 N2P 作為 N2 系列的擴充。N2P 在 N2 的基礎上進一步提升了性能和功率優勢，並計劃於 2026 年下半年實現量產。

We also introduced A16 featuring our best-in-class Super Power Rail, or SPR. A16 is best suited for specific HPC products with complex signal routes and dense power delivery networks. Volume production is on track for second half '26. We believe N2, N2P, A16 and its derivatives will propel our N2 family to build another large and long-lasting node for TSMC.

我們還推出了採用我們一流的超級動力軌 (SPR) 的 A16。A16 最適合具有複雜訊號路由和密集電力傳輸網路的特定 HPC 產品。2026 年下半年將大量生產。我們相信 N2、N2P、A16 及其衍生產品將推動我們的 N2 系列為台積電建造另一個大型且持久的節點。

This concludes our key message, and thank you for your attention.

這就是我們的主要訊息，感謝您的關注。

Thank you, C.C. This concludes our prepared statements. (Operator Instructions) Should you wish to raise your question in Chinese, I will translate it to English before our management answers your question. (Operator Instructions) Now let's begin the Q&A session. Operator, can we please proceed with the first caller on the line. Thank you.

謝謝，C.C。我們的準備好的聲明到此結束。（操作員指示）如果您想用中文提出問題，我會將其翻譯成英文，然後我們的管理層才會回答您的問題。（操作員指示）現在讓我們開始問答環節。接線生，我們可以繼續接聽線路上的第一個來電嗎？謝謝。

First one, Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan.

第一個是摩根大通的 Gokul Hariharan。

So on the AI front, I think you have met with pretty much everybody who is driving the Gen AI revolution over the last couple of months. And as you said, everybody seems to be a lot more positive. I think we gave a guidance of mid-40s data center AI growth CAGR earlier this year until 2029. Anything that you see which should kind of change that number? Definitely feels like the growth today seems to be much stronger.

因此，在人工智慧方面，我想您已經會見了過去幾個月來推動人工智慧革命的幾乎所有人。正如你所說，每個人似乎都變得更加積極了。我認為我們今年稍早給出了資料中心 AI 成長複合年增長率為 40% 左右的預測，直到 2029 年。您看到什麼可以改變這個數字嗎？確實感覺今天的成長似乎更加強勁。

And related to that, you did talk about the very detailed capacity expansion planning that TSMC does. In past technology cycle, TSMC CapEx has gone up significantly to prepare for the next upgrade or next leading-edge node.

與此相關，您確實談到了台積電非常詳細的產能擴張計劃。在過去的技術週期中，台積電資本支出大幅增加，為下一次升級或下一個前沿節點做準備。

But in this cycle, TSMC revenues have grown 50% from the previous peak in '22, CapEx has only grown about 10%. So how should we think about the CapEx over the next couple of years? I know that you're not giving new guidance yet, but I just wanted to understand like there are we looking at much higher CapEx in the next couple of years, given all these conversations you've had? And I have a follow up after that. Thank you.

但在此週期中，台積電的收入較 2022 年的峰值增加了 50%，而資本支出僅增加了 10% 左右。那我們該如何考慮未來幾年的資本支出呢？我知道您還沒有給出新的指導，但我只是想知道，考慮到您剛才的這些對話，我們是否在未來幾年內會看到更高的資本支出？之後我會跟進。謝謝。

Okay. So Gokul's first question -- sorry, Gokul, let me summarize for everyone's benefit. So again, he wants to know, firstly, related to the AI-related demand that TSMC works with many, if not everyone, who is doing AI. And many of the customers seem to be even more positive today. So I guess you would like to ask C.C. sort of what are we seeing or hearing from our customers. And then we had previously said that the next five years from 2024 to '29, we expect AI accelerator to grow at a mid-40s CAGR. Is there any update to this? I think this is the first part, then I'll get to the second part on CapEx.

好的。所以 Gokul 的第一個問題——抱歉，Gokul，讓我總結一下，以便大家受益。所以，他再次想知道，首先，與人工智慧相關的需求是台積電與許多（如果不是全部）從事人工智慧的人合作。如今，許多顧客似乎都變得更加積極了。所以我想你會想​​問 C.C. 我們從客戶那裡看到或聽到了什麼。我們之前曾說過，從 2024 年到 2029 年的未來五年，我們預計人工智慧加速器的複合年增長率將達到 40% 左右。有更新資訊嗎？我認為這是第一部分，然後我將討論有關資本支出的第二部分。

Well, that's a long question, isn't it. But Gokul, the AI demand actually continue to be very strong and more stronger than we thought three months ago, okay? So in today's situation, we have talked to customers and then we talk to customers' customers. So the CAGR previously we announced is about mid-40s, but it still is a little bit better than that. We will update you probably in beginning of next year. So we have a more clear picture. Today, the number are insane.

嗯，這是一個很長的問題，不是嗎。但 Gokul，人工智慧的需求其實持續非常強勁，比我們三個月前想像的還要強勁，好嗎？因此，在今天的情況下，我們已經與客戶進行了交談，然後我們與客戶的客戶進行了交談。因此，我們先前宣布的複合年增長率約為 40% 左右，但仍然比這要好一點。我們大概會在明年年初向您更新消息。因此，我們對情況有了更清晰的認識。如今，這個數字已經非常驚人。

Then the second part of Gokul's question related to CapEx. He notes that in the past, when TSMC sees opportunities for higher growth, past cycles or past instances, we would step up the CapEx significantly to prepare to drive the future growth. But he notes, this cycle, actually, though, while CapEx is increasing, the revenue is increasing even faster. So his question really, I think, how do we see this playing out over the next few years, both in terms of the CapEx spend and the growth relative to the revenue growth?

然後，Gokul 問題的第二部分與資本支出有關。他指出，過去，當台積電看到更高成長的機會時，無論是過去的周期還是過去的案例，我們都會大幅增加資本支出，為推動未來的成長做好準備。但他指出，實際上，在這個週期中，雖然資本支出正在增加，但收入成長得更快。所以我認為，他的問題實際上是，我們如何看待未來幾年這種情況的發展，無論是在資本支出方面，還是在相對於收入成長的成長方面？

Okay. Gokul, every year, we spend the CapEx based on the business opportunity in the following few years. As well as we believe there are business opportunities, we will not hesitate to invest. And if we do our job right, the growth of our business, of our revenue should outpace the growth of the CapEx. And that's what we have been delivering in the past few years.

好的。Gokul，每年我們都會根據未來幾年的商業機會來支出資本支出。只要我們相信有商機，我們就會毫不猶豫地投資。如果我們做得正確，我們的業務和收入的成長應該會超過資本支出的成長。這正是我們過去幾年來一直在努力實現的目標。

Now going forward, assuming we're doing -- still doing a very good job, then we will continue to see that happening again. So a company of our size, the CapEx number, it's unlikely to suddenly grow up significantly in any given year. When we continue to invest and our growth is outpacing our CapEx growth, then you see the growth like what we have done in the past few years.

現在展望未來，假設我們仍然做得很好，那麼我們將繼續看到這種情況再次發生。因此，對於我們這種規模的公司來說，資本支出數字不太可能在任何一年突然大幅成長。當我們繼續投資並且我們的成長超過我們的資本支出成長時，你會看到像我們過去幾年所做的那樣的成長。

Understood. I know that it is unlikely to drop, but it is also likely to grow quite a bit given what C.C. mentioned in terms of every customer asking you and every customers' customer requesting you for capacity addition?

明白了。我知道它不太可能下降，但考慮到 C.C. 提到的每個客戶都向您詢問，每個客戶的客戶都要求您增加容量，它也可能會增長很多，對嗎？

Yeah. As I said, a higher level of CapEx is always going to be correlated with a higher growth opportunity. So as C.C. said, next year looks to be a healthy year, and we are confident on the mega trend that we'll continue to invest.

是的。正如我所說，更高水準的資本支出總是與更高的成長機會有關。因此，正如 C.C. 所說，明年看起來將是健康的一年，我們對大趨勢充滿信心，我們將繼續投資。

Maybe one more follow-up question from me. C.C., I think last year also, you gave us an indication of how much CoWoS capacity you would be building. I think you talked about 2x or doubling the CoWoS capacity. It clearly feels like even that is not enough. Could you give us some idea about how much capacity would you be building next year just to get some idea about what you are seeing in terms of AI demand.

我可能還想問一個後續問題。C.C.，我想去年您也向我們透露了您將要建造多少 CoWoS 容量。我認為您談論的是將 CoWoS 容量增加 2 倍或兩倍。顯然，即使這樣也感覺不夠。您能否告訴我們您明年將建造多少產能，以便了解您對人工智慧需求的看法。

And also just to get some understanding of TSMC's data under AI exposure, I think last year, we talked about mid-teens revenues. Where do we end up this year? Do we end up close to like 30% of revenues coming from AI?

另外，為了了解台積電在人工智慧影響下的數據，我想去年我們討論過十幾歲的收入。今年我們最終會走向何方？我們最終會有接近 30% 的收入來自人工智慧嗎？

Okay. So Gokul, your second question, really, he wants to understand can we provide any detail or colors on the CoWoS capacity plan for 2026 in terms of year-on-year increase? And also in terms of our definition of AI accelerated revenue, the narrow definition, how much will it contribute for 2025 revenue? Is it 30%?

好的。那麼 Gokul，你的第二個問題，實際上，他想了解我們能否提供有關 2026 年 CoWoS 產能計劃同比增長的任何細節或說明？另外，就我們對人工智慧加速收入的定義而言，狹義的定義，它對 2025 年的收入貢獻有多大？是30%嗎？

Well, Gokul, this is C.C. Wei again. Talking about the CoWoS capacity, all I can say is continue the three months ago, we are working very hard to narrow the gap between the demand and supply. We are still working to increase the capacity in 2026. The real number, we probably update you next year.

好的，Gokul，我又是 C.C. Wei。談到 CoWoS 產能，我只能說，延續三個月前的做法，我們正在努力縮小供需之間的差距。我們仍在努力提高 2026 年的產能。真實的數字，我們可能會在明年更新。

Today, all I want to say about the AI, everything related, like frontend and backend capacity is very tight. We are working very hard to make sure that the gap will be narrower, but what I can say is we are working very hard.

今天我想說的都是關於人工智慧的，所有相關的東西，像是前端和後端的容量都非常緊張。我們正在非常努力地確保差距縮小，但我可以說的是，我們正在非常努力地工作。

Okay. Thank you, Gokul. I think we need to move on in the interest of time. So operator, can we move to the next participant, please.

好的。謝謝你，Gokul。我認為為了節省時間我們需要繼續前進。接線生，請問我們可以轉到下一位參與者嗎？

Yeah. Next one, Charlie Chan, Morgan Stanley.

是的。下一個是摩根士丹利的陳查理。

And again, congratulations for a very strong results, C.C., Wendell and Jeff. So my first question is really about your business demand. As C.C. just mentioned, your front-end demand is also very strong into next year. But one of your major customers said that Moore’s Law is dead. I think his point is that doing maybe a system-level innovation in thermal, et cetera, can boost up more kind of performance.

再次恭喜 C.C.、Wendell 和 Jeff 取得優異的成績。所以我的第一個問題實際上是關於您的業務需求。正如 C.C. 剛才所提到的，你們明年的前端需求也非常強勁。但你們的一位主要客戶說摩爾定律已經失效了。我認為他的觀點是，在熱能等方面進行系統級創新或許可以提升更多類型的效能。

So just a kind of a dumb question, how do we reconcile your very, very strong leading-edge demand and the customers continue to migrate to your most advanced nodes, and also you continue to reflect value, whereas the customer continue to think that Moore’s Law is dead? Can we get some clarification from TSMC?

所以這只是一個愚蠢的問題，我們如何調和您非常非常強勁的前沿需求和客戶繼續遷移到您最先進的節點，並且您繼續反映價值，而客戶繼續認為摩爾定律已經失效？我們可以從台積電得到一些澄清嗎？

So Charlie's question is very specific, although he wants us to comment on a customer saying Moore's Law is dead. But how do we reconcile this with a very strong leading edge demand into 2026 and also with system-level innovations?

因此，查理的問題非常具體，儘管他希望我們對一位客戶所說的摩爾定律已死的說法發表評論。但是，我們如何將其與 2026 年非常強勁的前沿需求以及系統級創新相協調呢？

Okay. Charlie, this is C.C. Wei. Yeah, I know my customers, very important customers, say, Moore's Law is dead. But what he means is, it's not only we rely on the chip technology anymore. Now we have to focus on that whole system’s performance. So he wants to emphasize the whole system performance rather than just talking about the Moore's Law, which is not enough to meet his requirement.

好的。查理，我是 C.C. Wei。是的，我知道我的客戶，非常重要的客戶，說摩爾定律已經失效了。但他的意思是，我們不再只依賴晶片技術。現在我們必須關注整個系統的效能。所以他想強調整個系統的性能，而不是只談論摩爾定律，這不足以滿足他的要求。

So again, we work very closely with his people and to design our technology both in frontend and backend and also all the packaging to meet his requirement. That's all I can say.

因此，我們再次與他的員工密切合作，設計前端和後端的技術以及所有包裝以滿足他的要求。我只能說這麼多。

Okay. Thank you, C.C. Do you have a second question, Charlie?

好的。謝謝你，C.C。你還有第二個問題嗎，查理？

Yeah, I do, Jeff. Yeah. So I would interpret that as Moore's Law 2.0 that your co-COO, Mr. Cliff Hou, also kind of shared during the SEMICON Taiwan. Anyways, thanks, C.C., for your commentary.

是的，我知道，傑夫。是的。因此，我將其解讀為摩爾定律 2.0，貴公司的聯合營運長 Cliff Hou 先生也在 SEMICON Taiwan 期間分享過這一定律。無論如何，感謝 C.C. 的評論。

My second question is actually a follow-up from last quarter's same question. Back then, I consult you about China AI GPU demand, right, whether you can seize the market opportunity because China says NVIDIA is also extending their AI infrastructure very rapidly. But given the recent kind of back and forth between US and China, whether China can really import NVIDIA GPU, would that kind of discount your potential long-term growth of the AI CAGR? Is that something that TSMC would worry about?

我的第二個問題其實是上個季度同一問題的後續。當時我向您諮詢了中國對AI GPU的需求，對嗎，您是否可以抓住市場機會，因為中國表示NVIDIA也在非常迅速地擴展他們的AI基礎設施。但考慮到最近中美之間的反复，中國是否真的可以進口 NVIDIA GPU，這是否會對 AI CAGR 的潛在長期成長產生影響？這是台積電擔心的事嗎？

Okay. So Charlie's second question is related around AI demand and specific to China with the sort of the export control and restriction. His question is, does that impact our ability to address the market opportunity? And will this impact our AI CAGR growth if we are not allowed to fully serve China?

好的。因此，查理的第二個問題與人工智慧需求有關，具體涉及中國的出口管制和限制。他的問題是，這是否會影響我們抓住市場機會的能力？如果我們不被允許全面服務中國，這會影響我們的人工智慧複合年增長率嗎？

Yeah. I think there's both sides. I mean, in restriction from the US, but also China government kind of discouragement to procure US chips. Sorry for the interruption.

是的。我認為雙方都有。我的意思是，除了美國的限制之外，中國政府也阻止採購美國晶片。抱歉打擾了。

Well, Charlie, to speak the truth, I have confidence on my customers, both in graphics or in ASIC, they are all performing well. And so if the China market is not available, but I still think the AI's growth will be very dramatical and as I said, very positive, and I have confidence that our customers' performance, and they will continue to grow, and we will support them.

嗯，查理，說實話，我對我的客戶有信心，無論是在圖形方面還是在 ASIC 方面，他們都表現得很好。因此，如果中國市場不可用，但我仍然認為人工智慧的成長將非常顯著，正如我所說的那樣，非常積極，我相信我們的客戶的表現，他們將繼續成長，我們將支持他們。

So even with a limited opportunity from China for the time being, you are still confident that a 40% CAGR or even higher can be achieved in the coming years?

那麼，即使目前來自中國的機會有限，您仍然有信心在未來幾年實現 40% 甚至更高的複合年增長率嗎？

You are right.

你是對的。

Operator, can we move on to the next participant, please.

接線生，請問我們可以接聽下一位參與者嗎？

Yeah. Sunny Lin, UBS.

是的。瑞銀的 Sunny Lin。

Congrats on the very strong gross margin. So my first question is how should we think about 2026. I understand we should get better color maybe into January. But just want to get some directional major puts and takes for gross margin trending going to 2026. Especially, how should we think about the gross margin impact from 2-nanometer ramp for 2026?

恭喜您獲得如此強勁的毛利率。所以我的第一個問題是我們應該如何看待 2026 年。我知道到一月我們應該可以得到更好的顏色。但只是想獲得一些關於 2026 年毛利率趨勢的方向性主要看跌和看漲資訊。特別是，我們應該如何看待 2026 年 2 奈米製程的推出對毛利率的影響？

Okay. So Sunny's first question is regarding gross margin. She would like to know directionally, how do we see the gross margin for next year 2026 in terms of certain puts and takes. And also, if Wendell is able to comment specifically, Sunny, sorry if I heard you right, on the N2 dilution impact, correct?

好的。因此，Sunny 的第一個問題是關於毛利率的。她想從方向上了解，就某些投入和產出而言，我們如何看待明年 2026 年的毛利率。另外，如果 Wendell 能夠具體評論一下，Sunny，如果我沒聽錯的話，請見諒，關於 N2 稀釋的影響，對嗎？

Yeah, that's right.

是的，沒錯。

Okay. That's her first question.

好的。這是她的第一個問題。

Okay. Sunny. Yeah, it's too early to talk about 2026. But you already mentioned about the N2 dilution. And as all the new node, when they just come out, the N2 will have dilution in our gross margin in 2026. But at the same time, the N3 dilution is gradually coming down, and we expect the N3 to catch up to the corporate average sometimes in 2026.

好的。陽光明媚。是的，現在談論 2026 年還為時過早。但是您已經提到了 N2 稀釋。正如所有新節點一樣，當它們剛剛推出時，N2 將在 2026 年稀釋我們的毛利率。但與此同時，N3 稀釋度正在逐漸下降，我們預計 N3 將在 2026 年左右趕上企業平均值。

The other factors include like overseas fabs dilution, which will continue and which we said that it will be about 2% to 3% dilution in the early stage of the next several years. That will also be there. And also, we all saw the dramatic foreign exchange rate movement in the earlier part of this year. There's no control. We don't know when that will be. But every percentage move of dollar against NT will affect our gross margin by 50 -- 40 basis points. So that just gives you some rough idea.

其他因素包括海外晶圓廠的稀釋，這種情況將會持續下去，我們說過，在未來幾年的初期，稀釋率將在 2% 到 3% 左右。那也將在那裡。而且，我們都看到了今年早些時候外匯匯率的劇烈波動。沒有控制。我們不知道那會是什麼時候。但美元兌新台幣的匯率每變動一個百分點，就會影響我們的毛利率 50-40 個基點。這只是給你一些粗略的想法。

Sorry, if I may. Yeah, a very quick follow-up. And so on 2-nanometer, over the typical 2% to 3% dilution by new node for the first seven to eight quarters of mass production, being a good reference for 2-nanometer as well for 2026.

抱歉，如果可以的話。是的，非常快速的跟進。2 奈米也是如此，在量產的前七到八個季度中，新節點的稀釋率通常為 2% 到 3%，這對於 2026 年的 2 奈米也是一個很好的參考。

Okay. So Sunny, a quick follow-up. She wants to know for the 2-nanometer dilution, if we're able to provide any detail? And can she still think about it in terms of seven to eight quarters or six to eight quarters dilution to reach the -- time, sorry, to reach the corporate average?

好的。所以 Sunny，快速跟進一下。她想知道 2 奈米稀釋度的情況，我們能否提供任何細節？她是否還能考慮用七到八個季度或六到八個季度的稀釋來達到——抱歉，是達到公司平均水平的時間？

Yeah. Sunny, let me share with you. N2's structure profitability is better than N3, okay? Secondly, it's less meaningful nowadays to talk about how long it will take for a new node to reach the corporate average in terms of profitability. And that's because the corporate profitability, the corporate gross margin moves, and generally, it has been moving upwards. So less meaningful to talk about that, okay?

是的。Sunny，讓我跟你分享一下。N2的結構獲利能力比N3好一點好嗎？其次，現在談論一個新節點需要多長時間才能達到企業獲利水準的意義已經不大了。這是因為企業獲利能力、企業毛利率正在變化，整體而言，一直在上升。所以談論這件事就沒什麼意義了，好嗎？

Got it. No problem, very helpful. My second question, maybe for C.C. Thanks a lot for sharing with us the details on how you think about the capacity expansions and planning. And so my question is now cloud AI is working a lot faster than the prior opportunities like smartphones and PCs.

知道了。沒問題，非常有幫助。我的第二個問題可能是針對 C.C. 的。非常感謝您與我們分享您對產能擴張和規劃的看法的細節。所以我的問題是，現在雲端 AI 的運行速度比之前的智慧型手機和個人電腦等技術快得多。

Yet, I think the demand for cloud AI is also may be harder to forecast. So just wanted to maybe get a bit more color from you that now to the prior rounds of capacity expansions, what is TSMC doing differently versus before? And how do you ensure that while you are ramping up the capacity more quickly, we’re still having a good risk control?

然而，我認為對雲端 AI 的需求也可能更難預測。所以我想請您更詳細地介紹一下，與前幾輪產能擴張相比，台積電的做法與以前有何不同？您如何確保在更快地提高產能的同時，我們仍然能夠很好地控制風險？

Okay. Thank you, Sunny. So Sunny's second question is regarding capacity planning and expansion. In a capital-intensive business, she notes this is very important. But in the past, smartphone and PC megatrends. Today, it's AI and cloud AI. She is wondering, does that make this planning process more difficult to forecast? And what are we doing differently or how do we forecast this to make sure that we are investing appropriately?

好的。謝謝你，Sunny。因此，Sunny 的第二個問題是關於產能規劃和擴張。她指出，在資本密集型企業中，這一點非常重要。但在過去，智慧型手機和個人電腦是大趨勢。今天是人工智慧和雲端人工智慧。她想知道，這是否會讓這個規劃過程變得更難預測？我們做了哪些不同的事情或我們如何預測這一點以確保我們進行適當的投資？

Sunny, indeed, right now because of -- I believe we are just in the early stage of the AI application. So very hard to make right forecast at this moment. What do we do differently? There's a big difference because right now, we pay a lot of attention to our customers' customers. We talk to and then discuss with them and look at their applications, be it in the search engine or in social media's application.

Sunny，確實，現在因為——我相信我們正處於人工智慧應用的早期階段。因此目前很難做出正確的預測。我們做了哪些不同的事情？這是一個很大的區別，因為現在我們非常關注客戶的客戶。我們與他們交談、討論並查看他們的應用程序，無論是在搜尋引擎還是在社交媒體的應用程式。

We talk with them and see how they view the AI application to those functions. And then we make a judgment about what AI going to grow. And so this is quite the difference. As compared with before, we only talk to our customers and have an internal study. This is different.

我們與他們交談，了解他們如何看待人工智慧在這些功能上的應用。然後我們對人工智慧將會發展成什麼樣子做出判斷。所以這有很大差別。與以前相比，我們只與客戶溝通並進行內部研究。這是不同的。

Did I answer your question?

我回答你的問題了嗎？

Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and looking forward to the CapEx guide in January.

知道了。是的，是的，是的。期待一月份的資本支出指南。

You're welcome.

不客氣。

All right. Thank you, Sunny. Operator, can we move on to the next participant, please.

好的。謝謝你，Sunny。接線生，請問我們可以接聽下一位參與者嗎？

Next one, Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

下一位是高盛的 Bruce Lu。

I think Jensen talked about like 3 to 4 trillion AI infrastructure opportunity by 2030, right? This compared to like $600 billion CapEx recently for this year implies for about 40% CAGR. This is similar to TSMC’s guidance for the AI growth, right? But for me, first of all, what I want to know is what is TSMC's view for AI infrastructure growth for the next five years? And what is TSMC's forecast for the token growth rate in the next few years?

我認為詹森談到了到 2030 年將有 300 到 4 兆美元的人工智慧基礎設施機會，對嗎？相較之下，今年的資本支出約為 6,000 億美元，複合年增長率約為 40%。這與台積電對人工智慧成長的指導類似，對嗎？但對我來說，首先我想知道的是台積電對於未來五年AI基礎設施成長的看法是什麼？而台積電對於未來幾年代幣成長率的預測又是多少呢？

TSMC used to provide the semi industry growth, foundry growth and how much TSMC can outperform the industry, right? Given the context, can we assume like TSMC AI-related revenue can track or will track with the CapEx growth of AI or the major cloud service provider? Or should we expect even higher growth rate for TSMC considering you're potentially getting more value out of it?

台積電曾經為半導體產業、代工產業帶來成長，而台積電現在能跑贏產業多少呢？考慮到這種情況，我們是否可以假設台積電的人工智慧相關收入可以追蹤或將追蹤人工智慧或主要雲端服務供應商的資本支出成長？或者，考慮到台積電可能從中獲得更多價值，我們是否應該預期其成長率會更高？

Okay. Let me try to summarize your question, Bruce. He notes that one of our customers has highlighted a 3 trillion to 4 trillion infrastructure opportunity over the next few years compared to $600 billion current CapEx, implying a 40%-something CAGR growth rate, which is similar to ours. Bruce's question is, he wants to know what is TSMC's forecast or view for AI infrastructure growth. He would also like to know what is TSMC's forecast or view for the token growth.

好的。讓我試著總結一下你的問題，布魯斯。他指出，我們的一位客戶強調，未來幾年基礎設施建設機會將達到 3 兆至 4 兆美元，而目前的資本支出為 6,000 億美元，這意味著 40% 左右的複合年增長率，與我們的情況相似。Bruce的問題是，他想知道台積電對於AI基礎設施成長的預測或看法是什麼。他還想知道台積電對代幣成長的預測或看法是什麼。

And then what is TSMC's AI-related revenue growth? Can it track that of the cloud service providers? And his question is, should it be even higher -- shouldn't it be even higher given the value that we capture? That's actually several questions, but is that correct, Bruce?

那麼台積電AI相關營收成長如何呢？它能追蹤雲端服務提供者嗎？他的問題是，它應該更高嗎——考慮到我們捕獲的價值，它不應該更高嗎？這實際上是幾個問題，但正確嗎，布魯斯？

That's right.

這是正確的。

Well, Bruce essentially, just want to know how accurate that we can predict the AI's demand. We give you a number, roughly 40 -- the mid-40s CAGR, not including all the infrastructures built up and also aligned with our major customers' forecast for their view.

嗯，布魯斯本質上只是想知道我們能夠多準確地預測人工智慧的需求。我們給你一個數字，大約是 40 - 40 年代中期的複合年增長率，不包括所有已建成的基礎設施，也與我們主要客戶的預測一致。

More than that, I think if we are talking about the tokens, the number of tokens that increased is exponential. And I believe that almost every three months, it will be exponentially increased. And that's why we are still very comfortable that the demand on leading edge semiconductor is real.

不僅如此，我認為如果我們談論代幣，那麼代幣數量的增加是指數級的。而且我相信幾乎每三個月就會呈指數級增長。這就是為什麼我們仍然非常放心，對尖端半導體的需求是真實的。

And as I continue to say that we look at all the demand and look at our capacity expansion, we need -- TSMC needs to work very hard to narrow the gap. That's what we are doing right now. Exact number that we probably will share with you in next year when we have a clear picture.

正如我繼續說的那樣，我們會考慮所有需求並考慮我們的產能擴張，我們需要——台積電需要非常努力地縮小差距。這就是我們現在正在做的事情。當我們對確切數字有清晰的了解後，我們可能會在明年與您分享。

I just had a quick follow-up. I'll use that as my second question anyway. I think the question is that the token growth seems to be substantially higher than the AI-related revenue guidance on TSMC, right? So the gap is actually enlarging if you compound in the outer years, right? That's why -- that's the differences between the -- what we see for the current TSMC outlook and the potential token consumptions, right? So the gap is -- continue to see it enlarging. How do we solve this? And do we really see that as a major issue?

我只是進行了快速的跟進。無論如何，我會將其作為我的第二個問題。我認為問題在於代幣成長似乎大大高於台積電的人工智慧相關收入指引，對嗎？因此，如果在後面幾年進行複合，差距實際上會擴大，對嗎？這就是為什麼——這就是我們所看到的當前台積電前景與潛在代幣消耗之間的差異，對嗎？因此差距正在不斷擴大。我們該如何解決這個問題？我們真的認為這是一個重大問題嗎？

Okay. So Bruce's second question, which is a follow-on from his first, is that the token growth is growing at a much higher rate or exponentially than TSMC's AI revenue growth, and this gap will only enlarge or widen in the next few years. So he wants to know -- sorry, Bruce, basically, what's the implication to TSMC or how do we see this? Is that correct?

好的。因此，Bruce 的第二個問題是第一個問題的延續，即代幣成長的速度或指數成長遠高於台積電的 AI 收入成長，而這種差距在未來幾年只會擴大或擴大。所以他想知道——抱歉，布魯斯，基本上，這對台積電意味著什麼，或者我們如何看待這一點？對嗎？

Correct.

正確的。

Okay, Bruce. You are right. You are right. The tokens and the number of tokens have increased exponentially, it's much, much higher than TSMC's CAGR as we forecasted. And let me tell you that, first, our technology continues to improve.

好的，布魯斯。你是對的。你是對的。代幣和代幣數量呈指數級增長，遠高於我們預測的台積電的複合年增長率。我告訴你們，首先，我們的技術不斷在進步。

And so our customer moving from one node to the next node so that they can handle much more tokens in their basic fundamental calculation. So that's one thing. We progressed very well from one node into the other node. And our customers are working with TSMC to continuously -- to improve their performance. And that's why when we say that we have about 40, 45 CAGR, but then the token number are exponentially increased because of our customer and TSMC's technology combined that can handle much more or much efficient than before.

因此，我們的客戶從一個節點移動到下一個節點，以便他們可以在基本運算中處理更多的令牌。這是一回事。我們從一個節點到另一個節點進展非常順利。我們的客戶正在與台積電合作，不斷提高他們的業績。這就是為什麼當我們說我們有大約 40、45 的複合年增長率時，由於我們的客戶和台積電的技術相結合，令牌數量呈指數級增長，可以比以前處理更多或更高效。

Did I answer your question?

我回答你的問題了嗎？

So you believe your node migration plus your customer design change can fulfill or can meet the exponential growth for the token consumption?

所以你認為你的節點遷移加上你的客戶設計變化可以實現或可以滿足代幣消耗的指數增長？

Exactly.

確切地。

Is that the conclusion?

這就是結論嗎？

Yeah. (multiple speakers)

是的。（多位發言者）

Bruce, that was your second question. Operator, we need to move on. Thank you, Bruce.

布魯斯，這是你的第二個問題。接線員，我們需要繼續前進。謝謝你，布魯斯。

Next on, Laura Chen.

接下來是 Laura Chen。

Appreciate, C.C., sharing your view on TSMC strategy on the AI capacity planning. I think along with the very strong advanced node demand, I believe that advanced packaging like CoWoS is also one of the focus for your AI clients they are now looking for. I recall that TSMC previously also planned to expand advanced packaging in Arizona.

感謝 C.C. 分享您對台積電 AI 產能規劃策略的看法。我認為，隨著對先進節點的強勁需求，我相信像 CoWoS 這樣的先進封裝也是您的 AI 客戶現在正在尋找的重點之一。我記得台積電之前也計劃在亞利桑那州擴建先進封裝。

So can you give us updates here? And also, I mean, for the time being, the very stretched demand at the moment. So would TSMC work more closely with your OSAT partner to fulfill the strong demand at the same time? That's my first question.

那麼您可以在這裡向我們提供最新消息嗎？而且，我的意思是，就目前而言，需求非常緊張。那麼台積電是否會與您的 OSAT 合作夥伴更緊密地合作以同時滿足強勁的需求？這是我的第一個問題。

Okay. Thank you, Laura. So her first question is on capacity planning. We have talked earlier on the call about the planning for leading node. She wants to understand also on the CoWoS capacity and specifically, I guess, advanced packaging in Arizona and how do we work with our OSAT partners.

好的。謝謝你，勞拉。所以她的第一個問題是關於產能規劃。我們之前在電話會議上討論過領先節點的規劃。她還想了解 CoWoS 的產能，特別是亞利桑那州的先進封裝，以及我們如何與 OSAT 合作夥伴合作。

Okay. We have announced our plan to build two advanced packaging fabs in Arizona and to support our customers. But at the same time, actually, right now, we are working with the one OSAT, a big company and our good partner, and they are going to build their fab in Arizona, and we are working with them because they're already breaking ground. And the schedule is earlier than TSMC's two advanced packaging fabs. And we are working with them. And our main purpose is to support our customers so we can made in the US.

好的。我們已經宣布了在亞利桑那州建造兩座先進封裝工廠的計劃，以支持我們的客戶。但同時，實際上，目前我們正在與一家 OSAT 合作，這是一家大公司，也是我們的好夥伴，他們將在亞利桑那州建造他們的工廠，我們正在與他們合作，因為他們已經開始破土動工。且進度比台積電兩座先進封裝廠的投產時間都要早。我們正在與他們合作。我們的主要目的是支持我們的客戶，以便我們能夠在美國製造。

Laura, do you have a second question?

蘿拉，你還有第二個問題嗎？

Yeah. Certainly, we see that the advanced node, advanced packaging are quite strong. And also at the same time, we are also seeing that the migration is also happening for N2 and N3. So just wondering that from the revenue growth perspective, I know it's still early to predict next year based on your guidance, but I'm just wondering, will it be more driven by the ASP increase because of the technology migration? TSMC will be able to sell in your value or more that will be driven by the capacity or volume growth on both N2 ramp-up?

是的。當然，我們看到先進節點、先進封裝非常強大。同時，我們也看到 N2 和 N3 也在發生遷移。所以我只是想知道，從收入成長的角度來看，我知道根據您的指導來預測明年的收入還為時過早，但我只是想知道，由於技術遷移，它是否會更多地受到 ASP 成長的推動？台積電將能夠以您的價值或更多的價格出售，這將受到 N2 產能或銷售成長的推動？

And also, C.C., you mentioned some of the mild cyclical recovery. So that may also drive some of the volume growth into next year. So just wondering, like if you look at the growth outlook, it will be more driven by the technology upgrade ASP increase or also more like a volume? That's my second question.

另外，C.C.，您提到了一些溫和的周期性復甦。因此這也可能會推動明年銷量的成長。所以我只是想知道，如果你看一下成長前景，它將更多地受到技術升級 ASP 成長的推動還是更多地受到數量的推動？這是我的第二個問題。

Okay. So Laura's, again, second question is looking at 2026. She would like to understand what will be the key drivers of the growth? Is it more from the technology mix migration, things like N2? Is it more from ASP upgrade? Or is it more from just pure wafer volume growth?

好的。因此，勞拉的第二個問題再次是關於 2026 年。她想了解成長的主要驅動力是什麼？它是否更多地來自技術混合遷移，例如 N2？是不是更多來自 ASP 升級？還是僅僅是來自晶圓產量的成長？

Laura, all the above. All right? You knew it, right?

勞拉，以上皆是。好的？你知道，對吧？

There also a follow up because we see that actually N3 is very tight. And at the same time, we are also kind of expanding on N2. And C.C., you previously mentioned that you will migrate some of the even N7, N6, and also N5, like -- but specifically on N3, do we also need to add more capacity into next year on newly added capacity?

還有一個後續行動，因為我們發現實際上 N3 非常緊張。同時，我們也在擴展 N2。C.C.，您之前提到過，您將遷移部分 N7、N6 和 N5，但具體到 N3，我們是否還需要在明年增加更多新增容量？

Sorry, Laura is saying that will -- next year, will we continue -- sorry, Laura, if I understand correctly, will we need to add new capacity? Will we continue to do conversion? What will we do to support the very strong trend we see at leading edge next year.

抱歉，勞拉的意思是——明年，我們會繼續嗎——抱歉，勞拉，如果我理解正確的話，我們需要增加新的產能嗎？我們會繼續進行轉換嗎？我們將採取什麼措施來支持明年我們所看到的非常強勁的前沿趨勢？

Right. Yeah.

正確的。是的。

Well, let me answer that question. We continue to optimize the N5, N3 capacity to support our customers. For the new building for the N3 capacity to expand, we put the new building for the N2 technology. That's today's plan. Okay.

好吧，讓我來回答這個問題。我們不斷優化N5、N3容量以支援我們的客戶。對於用於 N3 產能擴展的新大樓，我們投入了用於 N2 技術的新大樓。這就是今天的計劃。好的。

Thank you, Laura. Operator, in the interest of time, we'll take the questions from the last two participants, please. Thank you.

謝謝你，勞拉。接線員，為了節省時間，請我們回答最後兩位參與者的問題。謝謝。

Yeah. Next one, Krish Sankar, TD Cowen.

是的。下一位是 TD Cowen 的 Krish Sankar。

My first one is, C.C., about 10 years ago, back in the smartphone days, TSM talked about the revenue opportunity for TSM per phone. I was wondering in today's world, can you talk about how much 1 gigawatt of AI data center capacity could translate in terms of wafer demand or revenue for TSMC? And then I have a follow-up.

我的第一個問題是，C.C.，大約 10 年前，在智慧型手機時代，TSM 談到了每部手機的 TSM 收入機會。我想知道，在當今世界，您能否談談 1 千兆瓦的 AI 資料中心容量對台積電的晶圓需求或收入能產生多大的影響？然後我有一個後續問題。

Okay. So Krish's first question, he noted in the past in the smartphone megatrend, we talked about the content per phone opportunity for TSMC. So now with AI, is there a way to frame or quantify 1 gigawatt of data center capacity, what is the revenue opportunity for TSMC?

好的。因此，Krish 的第一個問題是，他指出，在過去的智慧型手機大趨勢中，我們討論了台積電的每部手機內容機會。那麼現在有了人工智慧，有沒有辦法建構或量化1千兆瓦的資料中心容量，台積電的收入機會又是什麼？

We -- recently, as I said, AI demand continue to increase. And then when customers say that 1 gigawatt, they need about -- invest about $50 billion. How much of TSMC's wafer inside? We are not ready to share with you yet because of different from different approaches.

我們——最近，正如我所說，人工智慧的需求持續增加。然後，當客戶說 1 千兆瓦時，他們需要投資約 500 億美元。裡面有多少台積電的晶圓？由於方法不同，我們尚未準備好與您分享。

And then a quick follow-up.

然後進行快速跟進。

Yeah, excuse me, I just want to say that right now, it's not only one chip. Actually, it's many chips together to form a system, right?

是的，對不起，我現在只想說，它不僅僅是一個晶片。其實就是很多晶片組合在一起形成一個系統，對吧？

Got it. Very helpful for that. Then a quick follow-up. Obviously, you first forecast long-term trends and then build capacity towards that. I'm kind of curious, when you look at the AI demand over the next several years, from a TSMC angle, does it matter whether it's -- that demand is coming through a GPU or an ASIC? Does it have an impact on your revenue or gross margin mix?

知道了。對此非常有幫助。然後快速跟進。顯然，您首先要預測長期趨勢，然後為此建立能力。我有點好奇，當你從台積電的角度來看未來幾年的人工智慧需求時，這種需求是透過 GPU 還是 ASIC 產生的，這很重要嗎？它對您的收入或毛利率組合有影響嗎？

Okay. Thank you, Krish. So his second question is, again, with our business outlook. Again, we forecast the long-term trends. We plan our capacity, as C.C. said, in a thorough and disciplined manner. His question is, what are the implications, for example, of -- I believe you said GPU versus ASIC in terms of the AI market? Do we have a preference or what? Is there a difference for TSMC? Is that correct, Krish?

好的。謝謝你，克里什。所以他的第二個問題還是關於我們的業務前景。再次，我們預測長期趨勢。正如 C.C. 所說，我們以全面而嚴謹的方式規劃我們的能力。他的問題是，例如，我相信您說的是 GPU 與 ASIC 在人工智慧市場方面有何區別？我們有什麼偏好嗎？對於台積電有什麼不同嗎？對嗎，克里什？

That's right. The impact to revenue and gross margin, whether it's a GPU or an ASIC.

這是正確的。無論是 GPU 還是 ASIC，都會對收入和毛利率產生影響。

Right. Okay.

正確的。好的。

Well, Krish, whether with it's GPU or it's an ASIC, it's all using our leading-edge technologies. And from our perspective, we are working with our customers, and we all know that they are going to grow strongly in the next several years. So no differentiation in front of TSMC. We support all kind of types.

嗯，Krish，無論是 GPU 還是 ASIC，都使用了我們領先的技術。從我們的角度來看，我們正在與客戶合作，我們都知道他們在未來幾年將會強勁成長。因此在台積電面前沒有差別。我們支援所有類型。

Operator, can we take -- thank you, Krish. So we'll take the question from the final participant, please.

接線員，我們可以接通嗎－謝謝你，克里什。那麼，請我們回答最後一位參與者的問題。

Last one, Arthur Lai, Macquarie.

最後一位是麥格理銀行的 Arthur Lai。

Congrats on a strong outlook. I'm Arthur Lai from Macquarie. So my question is about competition. So C.C., you define the Foundry 2.0 market. And I wonder what's a strategic initiative that TSMC's undertaking to further strengthening your competitive landscape and also in this broader ecosystem. So some context, I got the question from the US investor as your clients have announced they invest in Intel.

恭喜您擁有強勁的前景。我是來自麥格理的 Arthur Lai。我的問題是關於競爭的。所以 C.C.，你定義了 Foundry 2.0 市場。我想知道台積電採取了什麼策略措施來進一步加強你們的競爭格局以及更廣泛的生態系統。因此，一些背景信息，我從美國投資者那裡得到了這個問題，因為您的客戶已經宣布他們投資英特爾。

Okay. So Arthur's question is around competition. In the Foundry 2.0 landscape, what strategic initiatives, what things are TSMC focusing on to further strengthen our competitive advantage? I think the last part, Arthur, you're asking in the environment where one of our competitors in the US, how do we focus on the competition? Is that correct?

好的。所以亞瑟的問題是關於競爭的。在Foundry 2.0格局下，台積電有哪些策略性措施、重點關注哪些方面，以進一步增強我們的競爭優勢？我認為最後一部分，亞瑟，你問的是，在我們在美國有競爭對手的環境下，我們如何專注於競爭？對嗎？

Yeah.

是的。

Okay. Let me answer that one. When we introduced our Foundry 2.0, we set the purpose that -- as I said, one of my customers said that system performance is very important in these days, not only a single chip. And also, let me share with you that our advanced packaging revenue is slightly over (corrected by company after the call) 10% and is significant in our revenue, and it's important for our customers. So that's why we introduced Foundry 2.0 to capitalize this foundry business. Not as usual, previously, we only look at it the frontend portion. Now it's the whole thing, the frontend, the backend and also important for our customer. That's why we introduced 2.0.

好的。讓我來回答這個問題。當我們推出 Foundry 2.0 時，我們設定的目標是——正如我所說，我的一位客戶說，如今系統性能非常重要，而不僅僅是單一晶片。另外，讓我告訴大家，我們的先進封裝收入略高於（電話會議後公司進行了更正）10％，這在我們的收入中佔有重要地位，對我們的客戶也很重要。這就是我們推出 Foundry 2.0 來資本化這項代工業務的原因。與往常不同，以前我們只專注於前端部分。現在它是整個東西，前端，後端，對我們的客戶也很重要。這就是我們推出 2.0 的原因。

Talking about our competition in the U.S. Well, the competitor happened to be our customer, very good customer. So in fact, we are working with them to -- for their most advanced product. Other than that, I don't want to make any more comment.

談到我們在美國的競爭，嗯，競爭對手剛好是我們的客戶，非常好的客戶。事實上，我們正​​在與他們合作，以開發他們最先進的產品。除此之外，我不想再發表任何評論。

Can I ask one more question?

我可以再問一個問題嗎？

Yeah, you have two. So your second question. Sure.

是的，你有兩個。所以你的第二個問題是。當然。

Yeah. My second question is very quick on the end demand. So I recall, C.C., you, last time, mentioned that we should also monitor and worry about a prebuild, especially in the consumer electronics. And then this quarter, our number suggests that there's a QoQ 19% growth in the smartphone. So my question is, do you still worry about the prebuild?

是的。我的第二個問題是關於最終的需求。所以我記得，C.C.，你上次提到，我們也應該監控和關注預建，特別是在消費性電子產品領域。本季度，我們的數據顯示智慧型手機銷量較上季成長了 19%。所以我的問題是，您還擔心預建嗎？

All right. So Arthur's second question is on smartphone. Do we -- are we concerned about prebuild or sort of, I guess, pulli-in prebuild from customers in that regard?

好的。所以亞瑟的第二個問題是關於智慧型手機的。我們是否 - 我們是否關心預建，或者我猜，在這方面從客戶那裡拉入預建？

No. We don't worry about the prebuild because of -- when you have a prebuild, you have inventory. And in this stage, the inventory already go to the very seasonal level and very healthy. So no prebuild.

不。我們不必擔心預建，因為—當您有預建時，您就有庫存。在這個階段，庫存已經達到了季節性水平，非常健康。因此沒有預建。

Okay. Thank you, C.C. Thank you, Arthur. Thank you, everyone. So this concludes our Q&A session.

好的。謝謝你，C.C。謝謝你，Arthur。謝謝大家。我們的問答環節到此結束。

Before we conclude today's conference, please be advised that the replay of the conference will be accessible within 30 minutes from now. The transcript will become available 24 hours from now, and both are going to be available through TSMC's website at www.tsmc.com.

在我們結束今天的會議之前，請注意，會議的重播將在 30 分鐘後提供。會議記錄將於 24 小時後公佈，屆時可透過台積電網站 www.tsmc.com 取得。

So thank you, everyone, for joining us today. We hope you'll continue to stay well, and we hope you will join us again next quarter and early 2026. Thank you, and have a good day.

感謝大家今天加入我們。我們希望您能繼續保持健康，並希望您能在下個季度和 2026 年初再次加入我們。謝謝，祝您有美好的一天。