艾司摩爾 (ASML) 2025 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, everyone, good afternoon, depending on where you are, maybe even good night. Welcome to the Q4 full-year 2025 financial results press conference.

各位早安，下午好，或者，如果您身處異地，也許您已經道了晚安。歡迎參加2025財年第四季全年財務業績記者會。

You may not see that when you're dialing in online and you're watching us online, but we are actually in a different location than we were last year. Today, we host the press conference in our training center in the ASML Academy, and that is located at the Brainport Industries campus in Eindhoven. And this is actually the place where we plan our expansion in the Netherlands. So we thought it would be a good idea to invite everyone here in the room to see what our new location is going to look like. There's nothing there to see yet, but this is where we are planning our expansion. And Christophe will talk more about that later in the presentation.

您可能在線上撥入或觀看直播時看不到這一點，但實際上我們今天的地點與去年不同。今天，我們在位於埃因霍溫 Brainport Industries 園區的 ASML 學院培訓中心舉辦新聞發布會。這裡也是我們計畫在荷蘭擴張的地點。因此，我們覺得邀請在座各位參觀我們未來的新地點是個好主意。目前那裡還沒有實際的設施，但這裡是我們規劃擴張的所在地。克里斯托夫稍後會在演講中詳細介紹。

My name is Monique Mols, I'm Head of Media Relations. So welcome to you all. I'm really happy to see that there are people in the room and people online. For those online, if you have a question later on, you can fill out the form on the website, and we will take your question from here. If you're in the room, my colleague, Mark, will walk around with a microphone and pick up your question.

我是媒體關係主管莫妮克·莫爾斯，歡迎各位。很高興看到現場和線上都有朋友。線上的朋友，如果之後有任何問題，可以填寫網站上的表格，我們會在這裡收集您的問題。現場的朋友，我的同事馬克會拿著麥克風在現場走動，回答您的問題。

Sorry. So this is our annual results. Forward-looking statements for those who like it. So again, we are here at the Academy. We have several of those training centers all around the world. Here, we have quite a big center where, on average, 400 employees come here every day to get a training. So they actually work on the machines that our customers have in their fabs.

抱歉。這是我們的年度業績報告。以下內容包含前瞻性陳述，供有興趣的讀者參考。我們現在在學院。我們在世界各地設有多個培訓中心。這裡是我們規模較大的中心，平均每天有 400 名員工來這裡接受訓練。他們實際操作的機器正是我們客戶工廠裡使用的機器。

And every year, we have about 26,500 people coming here to train. So this is a very important location for us. And we're very happy that we can host a press conference here today.

每年大約有26500人來這裡訓練。所以這裡對我們來說是一個非常重要的地點。我們非常高興今天能在這裡舉行記者會。

With that, I'm not the only one who's going to talk to you today. Of course, I have Christophe Fouquet; and our CFO, Roger Dassen, and they will talk you through the numbers, through the developments, and everything that's happening at ASML.

因此，今天向大家講話的並非只有我一人。當然，還有克里斯托夫·福凱（Christophe Fouquet）和我們的財務長羅傑·達森（Roger Dassen），他們將為大家詳細介紹ASML的各項數據、發展動態以及正在發生的一切。

So I would like to invite on stage Christophe Fouquet.

所以我想邀請克里斯托夫·富凱上台。

Thank you very much, Monique. So Roger will be the one doing the good numbers later on. As you have noticed, we finished the year very, very, very strong with a record quarter, record year, record booking. And this is basically a sign of the direction this industry is taking. We are very happy, of course, with the walk the ASML team has done being able to execute on such a big quarter in Q4 and also prepare us basically for 2026.

非常感謝，莫妮克。羅傑之後會負責公佈亮眼的數據。正如你所看到的，我們以創紀錄的季度業績、全年業績和訂單量，在年底取得了非常非常強勁的成績。這基本上預示著整個產業的發展方向。當然，我們對ASML團隊在第四季度取得如此佳績，並為2026年做好充分準備感到非常滿意。

So a lot of good news today. And again, Roger will get into the number.

今天有很多好消息。羅傑還會再詳細介紹一下具體數字。

I'd like to say that we welcome also that clarification. In the course of 2025, you have seen that sometimes the business was still a bit uncertain. The last three months have really clarified basically at least the horizon for 2026 and most probably a bit beyond that.

我想說，我們也歡迎這種澄清。在2025年期間，大家也看到了，業務有時仍存在一些不確定性。但過去三個月的情況確實讓2026年乃至更遠的未來前景更加明朗。

So before we go into the numbers, I'd like to provide you some context about what's happening in the industry, what is driving basically this type of news today. And of course, the very first thing is AI. You have been hearing about AI already for a couple of years. You have heard major, major announcement about AI infrastructure.

所以在深入探討具體數字之前，我想先跟大家介紹一下產業現狀，以及推動這類新聞發展的根本原因。當然，首先要提到的就是人工智慧。過去幾年裡，大家可能已經聽過人工智慧，也聽過很多關於人工智慧基礎設施的重大消息。

I think from the very beginning in ASML, we have been a believer that AI will be a big thing. And this is true because as [we assumed] before, any major application moving forward will not only use semiconductor, but it will also use AI. And I put a few examples of those applications on this slide. It's pretty much everything you can think about when it comes to technology, when it comes to the future of society. This will all rely on AI.

我認為從ASML成立之初，我們就堅信人工智慧將發揮巨大作用。事實也的確如此，正如我們之前所設想的，未來任何重要的應用不僅會用到半導體，還會用到人工智慧。我在這張投影片上列舉了一些應用程式實例。它幾乎涵蓋了你能想到的所有技術應用，以及社會未來發展方向。而這一切都離不開人工智慧。

If you look at the opportunity, this has been said also before, this will drive basically advanced technology, advanced logic, advanced DRAM. This will also basically drive the entire data infrastructure. And the effect AI can have on the overall GDP is pretty big. In fact, if you look at the US, even in 2025, AI was counting for a very large part of the growth, and we expect that basically to be applied to the entire worldwide GDP.

如果你檢視一下其中的機會（這一點之前也提到過），它將從根本上推動先進技術、先進邏輯和先進DRAM的發展。它也將從根本上推動整個數據基礎設施的建設。人工智慧對整體GDP的影響非常巨大。事實上，以美國為例，即使到了2025年，人工智慧也將在經濟成長中佔據相當大的份額，我們預計這種情況將普遍存在於全球GDP。

So the opportunity is there. What was a bit, I would say, frustrating for us for a while is that where we heard all those news, we heard about all those investments, but basically, this was not yet translating into capacity addition at our customer.

所以機會是存在的。但有一段時間，讓我們感到有些沮喪的是，我們聽到了很多關於投資的消息，但基本上，這些投資並沒有轉化為我們客戶的實際產能成長。

I think what the last three months have done is change that. We have seen our customer basically moving forward. They start to really believe in the sustainability of the AI demand. That's true for memory, that's true for logic. And as a result, they started to invest. They started to plan for capacity. And of course, this will drive demand for our product at ASML.

我認為過去三個月改變了這一切。我們看到客戶基本上都在向前邁進。他們開始真正相信人工智慧需求的可持續性。無論是記憶體還是邏輯，都是如此。因此，他們開始投資，開始規劃產能。當然，這將推動對ASML產品的需求。

And when you look at the demand for our product, what's interesting with AI is that this basically touch on all products. Of course, AI is going to require very advanced chips, and this is going to drive EUV, for example. So this year will be a big year for EUV. Roger will talk about that. It's going to drive advanced inspection tool. But at the same time, AI needs a lot of data generation, a lot of sensor, and this will be still created by the use of more mature technology such as Deep UV.

當你觀察我們產品的需求時，人工智慧的有趣之處在於它幾乎影響到所有產品。當然，人工智慧需要非常先進的晶片，例如，這將推動極紫外光刻（EUV）技術的發展。因此，今年將是極紫外光刻技術蓬勃發展的一年。羅傑會談到這一點。它將推動先進檢測工具的發展。但同時，人工智慧需要大量的數據生成和感測器，而這些數據仍需要透過更成熟的技術（例如深紫外光刻）來產生。

So AI will have also this effect basically to really drive our entire product portfolio in the coming years.

因此，人工智慧也將在未來幾年對我們的整個產品組合產生這樣的影響。

This is a bit of a summary of what our customers have told us. So I talked already about the fact that they are more confident that AI is here to last, and therefore, they are going to invest. I think, in fact, for a lot of our customers in 2026, capacity will mean market share. So we will see them very eager to get the capacity as quickly as possible.

這是對我們客戶回饋的簡要總結。正如我之前提到的，他們越來越相信人工智慧將長期存在，因此他們會增加投資。事實上，我認為對我們許多客戶而言，到2026年，產能將意味著市場佔有率。所以我們會看到他們非常渴望盡快獲得所需的產能。

There's a few more good news when it comes to AI. AI also drive very advanced technology. This drive an increased use of EUV. And one of the things we've been talking in 2025 quite a bit is the fact basically that we have seen the number of layers of EUV increasing basically at our key customer. And this means practically that the overall litho intensity is going up, which means basically more use of our advanced lithography tool.

關於人工智慧還有一些好消息。人工智慧也推動了非常先進的技術發展，例如極紫外光微影（EUV）技術的廣泛應用。我們在2025年經常談到的一點是，我們發現主要客戶的EUV光刻層數正在增加。這意味著整體光刻強度正在提高，也就是我們先進的光刻設備將得到更廣泛的應用。

2026, we expect, as you understand, as the number will show, an improvement of the business, a significant growth especially on the advanced tool, EUV as said before, will be a big year. And again, on the midterm, we expect that to continue.

正如您所理解的，從數據上看，我們預計2026年業務將有所改善，尤其是在先進工具EUV方面將實現顯著增長，正如之前提到的，這將是重要的一年。此外，我們預計中期來看，這種成長動能將持續下去。

Long term, we stick basically to what we have told the market already several times, which is what we share basically at our Capital Market Day in November 2024. We still expect for 2030 revenue between EUR44 billion and EUR60 billion with a gross margin of 56% to 60%.

從長遠來看，我們基本上堅持我們已經多次向市場傳達的訊息，這些訊息也將在2024年11月的資本市場日上分享。我們仍預期2030年的營收將在440億歐元至600億歐元之間，毛利率為56%至60%。

Going a bit now to the effect of AI in the market. So this graph is showing a bit what AI will do. What you see here basically is the growth of the different segment of semiconductor. At the bottom, you see the historical growth of memory logic, which is about 6%, 7% year on year. 6%, 7% year on year is pretty great already.

現在我們來談談人工智慧對市場的影響。這張圖表大致展示了人工智慧將帶來哪些影響。圖中主要顯示的是半導體不同細分市場的成長情況。底部是儲存邏輯的歷史成長率，約為每年 6% 到 7%。 6% 到 7% 的年增長率已經相當不錯了。

There are many, many industries that will wish to see this kind of number. But what you see with AI is that when we look at advanced logic, when we looked at advanced memory, the growth on those segments is going to be more than 20% year on year for the foreseeable future. And this is really what is going to drive basically more demand on lithography.

許多行業都希望看到這樣的成長。但就人工智慧而言，當我們審視高階邏輯和高階記憶體時，會發現這些領域的成長率在可預見的未來將超過20%。而這正是推動光刻技術需求成長的根本原因。

Why is that? So we've talked in the past a lot about Moore's Law, of course. And Moore's Law is a law that say that every couple of years, we need to double the number of transistor per chips. And that law has been true for many, many years for PC for mobile application.

為什麼會這樣呢？我們之前當然多次討論過摩爾定律。摩爾定律指出，每隔幾年，我們就需要將晶片上的電晶體數量增加一倍。這條定律在PC和行動應用領域已經適用很多年了。

Now when you look at AI, and this started to happen in 2010, the curve is far more aggressive. When you look at the most advanced AI product today, NVIDIA products, for example, the request is not to grow 2 times every two years, but in the last few years, to grow 16 times every two years. So you see a major acceleration basically of the need for silicon.

現在，當我們審視人工智慧領域時（這種情況始於2010年），其發展曲線要迅速得多。以現今最先進的人工智慧產品為例，例如英偉達的產品，其需求不再是每兩年成長兩倍，而是在過去幾年裡，每兩年成長十六倍。因此，我們看到對晶片的需求出現了顯著的加速成長。

And of course, we provide that in two different ways. We provide that with scaling by making transistors smaller, we can put more transistor per chips. And this has been a good way basically to provide more transistor and follow Moore's Law for many, many years, but that's not enough anymore.

當然，我們透過兩種不同的方式來實現這一點。一種是透過縮小晶體管尺寸來實現，這樣每個晶片上就可以容納更多的晶體管。多年來，這基本上一直是提供更多晶體管並遵循摩爾定律的有效方法，但現在已經不夠了。

And if you cannot put enough transistor per unit of area per chips, then the only option will be to make more wafers. And that's a bit what we see happening with AI. So the most advanced AI application are going to drive up volume. And this is why when we look at DRAM customer today, when we look at logic customer today, they are building mega fabs. Some of them are talking about hyper-cycle because they have to be able basically to also provide this volume to the market.

如果晶片單位面積上的電晶體數量不足，那麼唯一的選擇就是製造更多晶圓。人工智慧領域的情況也大致如此。最先進的人工智慧應用將會推動產量成長。這就是為什麼我們今天看到的DRAM客戶和邏輯晶片客戶都在建造巨型晶圓廠。有些客戶甚至在討論超高速生產，因為他們必須能夠向市場提供如此龐大的產量。

So just to illustrate that, I pick one example, and I picked it from NVIDIA because all of you are, of course, very much aware of what's happening there. Today, on the black wall system, you need about 2.5 wafers to create the product. If you look at 2027 on the revenue product, this number will go up to 10 wafers. So to provide the same product to their customer, NVIDIA will need 4 times more wafer than today. And this is one of the reason why, again, we will see capacity extension driven again by this type of application.

為了說明這一點，我舉一個例子，我選擇英偉達的例子，因為你們當然都非常清楚他們正在發生的事情。目前，在黑牆系統中，製造一個產品大約需要2.5片晶圓。如果展望2027年的營收產品，這個數字將增加到10片晶圓。也就是說，為了提供客戶相同的產品，英偉達所需的晶圓數量將是現在的4倍。這也是為什麼我們將再次看到產能擴張是由這類應用驅動的原因之一。

That's what you see here. And this is again, I would say, a bit of a new dynamic we have in our market AI by this acceleration of the need for performance of power reduction is going to drive both volume and technology a lot harder than any technology before.

這就是你在這裡看到的。而且，我認為，這再次體現了我們市場人工智慧領域一種新的動態：對效能和功耗降低的需求加速成長，這將比以往任何技術都更能推動銷量和技術的發展。

So what does it mean for technology? EUV is key. 2026 is going to be a good year for EUV. We are looking at more shipments. And this, despite the fact that we have increased the productivity of our tool by more than 40%. So we're going to ship a lot of capacity for EUV this year.

那麼這對科技意味著什麼？ EUV是關鍵。 2026年將是EUV的豐收年。我們預計出貨量將大幅成長。即便我們已經將設備的產能提高了40%以上，依然如此。因此，今年我們將大幅提升EUV設備的出貨量。

If you look at it historically, we have already been having quite a bit of capacity. So the capacity headed of EUV in the last few years have been in average 25% year on year growth, which is quite significant. So we have seen all our customers basically alreay adopting this, which was logic first, then DRAM, but we expect basically to see that even more moving forward.

從歷史數據來看，我們已經擁有相當可觀的產能。過去幾年，EUV微影技術的產能平均每年成長25%，這相當可觀。我們看到，幾乎所有客戶都已經開始採用這項技術，最初是邏輯晶片，然後是DRAM，但我們預計未來這一趨勢還會進一步擴大。

Then we have High NA. And High NA, of course, is not going to be the tool that provide the capacity of EUV in 2026, '27, but that's the tool that will enable our customers to shift to even more advanced technology around '28, '29. That's important for DRAM. That's important for logic. And that's important for AI because as I said before, AI is going to be looking for more advanced chips with low power consumption, and High NA is going to play into that very strongly.

接下來是高數值孔徑 (High NA) 技術。當然，高數值孔徑技術在 2026 年或 2027 年還無法提供與 EUV 微影技術相同的產能，但它將使我們的客戶在 2028 年或 2029 年左右過渡到更先進的技術。這對 DRAM、邏輯電路以及人工智慧 (AI) 都至關重要，因為正如我之前所說，人工智慧需要更先進、低功耗的晶片，而高數值孔徑技術將在這方面發揮重要作用。

So good progress on High NA in the last few months. Our customers are still qualifying the tools. This takes a bit of time. The results are good. This year is going to be used to prepare a bit for insertion. And again, if we look at 2027, '28, we are going to see the first product being manufactured using some High NA system.

過去幾個月，高數值孔徑晶片（High NA）技術取得了良好進展。我們的客戶仍在對工具進行驗證，這需要一些時間。結果令人滿意。今年我們將主要為晶片插入做準備。展望2027年和2028年，我們將看到首批採用高數值孔徑晶片系統製造的產品問世。

Deep UV remains very important. As I said, it's not all about advanced semiconductor. As you know, a lot of technology still require Deep UV. So we continue to drive the roadmap both on immersion, where we have launched our 2150, which basically give us sub-nanometer accuracy and more than 300 wafer per hour.

深紫外光刻仍然非常重要。正如我所說，它不僅僅是關於先進的半導體技術。您也知道，許多技術仍然需要深紫外光刻。因此，我們繼續推進浸沒式光刻技術的發展路線圖，我們推出了 2150 型號，它基本上可以實現亞奈米級的精度，並且每小時可以處理超過 300 片晶圓。

Productivity is important. Productivity is, of course, a way to get capacity. So we continue to drive that on immersion. I think the example of the NXT:870B, which is a KrF system, is even more spectacular because there we have been capable to achieve more than 400 wafer per hour. And that tool today is creating a lot of interest at our customer because productivity, again, is capacity.

生產效率至關重要。當然，生產效率是提升產能的途徑。因此，我們持續推進浸沒式製程的生產。我認為NXT:870B（KrF系統）的例子更加令人矚目，因為我們已經實現了每小時超過400片晶圓的生產速度。如今，這款設備引起了我們客戶的極大興趣，因為生產效率，歸根究底，就是產能。

We talked also last quarter about us starting to help our customer with what we call 3D integration. So I told you, when you cannot put all the transistor in one chip, you just make more chips and bring them together with 3D integration. We have our first system, the TWINSCAN XT:260, that was shipped last quarter, lot of interest from our customer. For us, this is the first product looking at this new market opportunity. And we will continue to work with our customers basically to define more product moving forward to support them also on that segment.

上個季度我們也談到了我們將開始幫助客戶進行所謂的3D整合。正如我之前所說，當無法將所有電晶體整合到單一晶片上時，我們可以製造更多晶片，然後透過3D整合將它們連接起來。我們的首款系統——TWINSCAN XT:260——已於上個季度交付，並受到了客戶的廣泛關注。對我們來說，這是我們針對這項全新市場機會推出的首款產品。我們將繼續與客戶合作，開發更多產品，以支持他們在這一領域的發展。

A few words on metrology and inspection. So we don't talk always about metrology inspection. But when you drive technology, yield become very, very important, and yield can be improved by doing more maturity and more inspection. So in 2025, we have seen our metrology inspection business growing up by almost 30%, which is a major growth number. It has to with need for more metrology in spectrum. It has also do with the quality of our product in optical metrology for overlay, but also in e-beam.

關於計量和檢測，我想簡單談談。我們並非總是談論計量檢測，但隨著技術的進步，良率變得至關重要，而提高成熟度和加強檢測可以提升良率。因此，我們預計到2025年，我們的計量檢測業務將成長近30%，這是一個顯著的成長。這與光譜計量領域的需求增加有關，也與我們光學計量（用於套刻）和電子束計量產品的產品品質密切相關。

And one of the products where we have seen quite some progress in 2025 is multi-beam. Multi-beam is going to provide e-beam inspection at higher speed. And most probably in the next, I would say, a couple of years really enable our customer to move this technology to high-volume manufacturing. So a lot of good progress there as well.

2025年，我們看到多束電子束偵測技術取得了相當大的進展。多束電子束檢測技術將以更高的速度進行電子束檢測。而且很可能在未來幾年內，這項技術將真正幫助我們的客戶將其應用於大規模生產。因此，該領域也取得了許多令人欣喜的進展。

You all heard about Mistral, I say back in the end of the summer when we announced our collaboration but also our investment in Mistral. The rationale there was to get AI in ASML and to get the very best people, the very best competence in ASML in order to be able to first strengthen our core competencies, read putting AI in our product, support the connected market to offer some of those capability to our customers, and also create new opportunity basically moving forward. That's a project we are going to talk more about in '26, in '27. We are making great progress with Mistral, our partner. Our teams are working very, very closely together to basically execute on each one of those points.

大家應該都聽過Mistral，我記得是在夏末我們宣布與Mistral合作並進行投資的時候。當時的目的是將人工智慧引入ASML，並吸引最優秀的人才和最頂尖的技術，從而首先強化我們的核心競爭力，也就是將人工智慧融入我們的產品，支援互聯市場，為我們的客戶提供這些功能，並創造新的發展機會。我們將在2026年和2027年更詳細地討論這個計畫。我們與合作夥伴Mistral的合作進展順利。我們的團隊正緊密合作，努力落實上述各項計畫。

Going a bit into some of the other things we are very, very proud of at ASML. This is our engagement in the community. We have been spending, I would say, both the time, talent, money in order to work together with the community on a few very important topics.

接下來，我想談談ASML其他一些讓我們非常引以為傲的成就。例如我們對社區的積極參與。可以說，我們投入了大量的時間、精力和資金，與社區攜手合作，共同探討一些非常重要的議題。

The first one is mobility. Well, we are here today. As you know, this is also close to our next campus, which I will explain in a minute. We plan to have a groundbreaking this year in a few months. We want to continue basically to work with the Brainport community to improve the infrastructure because we are very much aware also that as we grow, we can sometimes create more headache and it's very important to address that. So we have major investment there also, of course, through the Beethoven Program.

首先是交通出遊。我們今天就在這裡。如您所知，這裡離我們的下一個校區也很近，我稍後會詳細介紹。我們計劃在今年幾個月後舉行奠基儀式。我們希望繼續與布雷恩波特社區合作，改善基礎設施，因為我們也深知，隨著我們的發展，有時帶來更多問題，而解決這些問題至關重要。因此，我們當然也透過貝多芬計劃在那裡投入了大量資金。

Affordable housing, there's been quite some press in 2025 about some of the progress we have done there. This is ongoing now for a few years. This remains very, very important, and we will continue to invest. You see the number there. I don't need to stress it to basically create more housing. We also understand that this is a broader challenge across the Netherlands, and we definitely want to do our part helping the community here.

在經濟適用房方面，2025年有許多媒體通報了我們在這一領域的進展。這項工作已經持續好幾年了。這仍然非常重要，我們將繼續投資。你們也看到了相關的數據。我無需贅述，我們一直在努力建造更多住房。我們也意識到，這在荷蘭是一個更廣泛的挑戰，我們當然希望盡我們所能幫助當地社區。

Culture. So we are very proud to be one of the, I would say, initial partner for the future Rijksmuseum here in Eindhoven. We love the city of Eindhoven. We love this place. But sometimes we feel that if we can bring a bit more culture, a bit more activity, I think this will help people to enjoy it even more, to attract even more people moving forward. That's why we stay very committed to the PSV Football Club, as you know. But this we thought was a very, very nice initiative from the city of Eindhoven, and we really wanted to be there.

文化。因此，我們非常自豪能成為埃因霍溫未來國立博物館的首批合作夥伴之一。我們熱愛埃因霍溫這座城市，熱愛這片土地。但我們有時覺得，如果能帶來更多文化元素和活動，我相信這將有助於人們更享受這裡的生活，吸引更多人來。如你所知，這也是我們始終支持埃因霍溫足球俱樂部的原因。我們認為這是埃因霍溫市政府一項非常棒的倡議，我們真心希望能夠參與其中。

Finally, education. You know that we have a long-standing relationship with the TU University here in Eindhoven that could extend up to many other university across the Netherlands. This is key. We want to develop tenant that will be able to work in semiconductor moving forward, and we will continue to do that, of course, very strongly.

最後，談談教育。您知道我們與埃因霍溫理工大學有著長期的合作關係，這種合作關係還可以擴展到荷蘭的許多其他大學。這一點至關重要。我們希望培養能夠在未來從事半導體行業的租戶，當然，我們將繼續大力推動這項工作。

One last word. We need to continue to grow. I will come back to some of the other announcement we had today about our focus on innovation and engineering. At the same time, we see more demand for our product. And therefore, our footprint needs to continue to grow because we need to invest in customer service. We need to invest in manufacturing. We need to invest in space.

最後再說一句。我們需要繼續發展。稍後我會再談到今天我們宣布的其他一些關於創新和工程的重點措施。同時，我們看到市場對我們產品的需求不斷成長。因此，我們的業務規模需要繼續擴大，因為我們需要投資客戶服務、生產製造和空間利用。

So last year, we opened two major sites, one in Korea, one in the US, and that intends to support basically our activity here. The big event in 2026 will be the groundbreaking of the big campus, which is our second big campus in the community. We'll do that mostly in May, June, and I'm sure you will be invited to join us with the idea that we can already start moving people as early as in 2028.

所以去年，我們開設了兩個主要辦公地點，一個在韓國，一個在美國，主要是為了支持我們在本地的業務。 2026年的重頭戲是大型園區的奠基儀式，這將是我們在這個社區的第二個大型園區。我們計劃在五月六月舉行奠基儀式，屆時一定會邀請您參加，因為我們預計最早在2028年就可以開始人員搬遷。

So this will be very good for our people. It will be very good also to debottleneck a bit the campus in Eindhoven, of course. And this is a project, as you know, that is very, very important for ASML.

所以這對我們的員工來說非常有利。當然，這也有助於緩解埃因霍溫園區的擁擠狀況。而且，如您所知，這個專案對ASML至關重要。

This is my update. I will come back in a bit to talk a bit about again the action we are taking on our engineering team to strengthen our innovation.

這是我的最新消息。稍後我會再詳細談談我們為加強工程團隊創新能力所採取的措施。

In the meantime, I'll give a chance to Roger to give us those very nice numbers. Thank you.

同時，我會給羅傑一個機會，讓他提供那些非常棒的數據給我們。謝謝。

Thank you, Christophe. And good morning, good afternoon, everyone. So indeed, I will present the financials for '25 and the outlook.

謝謝你，克里斯托夫。大家早安，下午好。那麼，我將為大家介紹2025年的財務數據和展望。

Christophe said it, clearly, Q4 2025, a record quarter by any standard. It was a record quarter in terms of sales. It was a record quarter in terms of order intake. It was a record quarter in terms of cash flow generation, on the back of all the good developments that Christophe just shared with you. So I won't call them out here, but just looking at the quarter, it's pretty clear that it was indeed a very strong quarter.

克里斯托夫說得很清楚，2025年第四季度，無論從哪個角度來看，都是創紀錄的季度。銷售額、訂單量和現金流都創下了新高，這都得益於克里斯托夫剛才分享的那些利多消息。所以我就不一一贅述了，但僅從這個季度來看，很明顯，這確實是一個非常強勁的季度。

If we look at 2025, and if we look at the total business for ASML, we ended the year with EUR32.7 billion in net revenue, 52.8% gross margin. And you see the key elements in here, a net income of EUR9.6 billion and an EPS earnings per share of close to EUR25 per ordinary share. All in all, very, very strong year in which we also paid back and returned quite some money to our shareholders. And also, we're able to do the participation in Mistral that Christophe just alluded to.

如果我們展望2025年，並縱觀ASML的整體業務，我們以327億歐元的淨收入和52.8%的毛利率結束了這一年。您可以看到其中的關鍵要素：淨利96億歐元，每股盈餘接近25歐元。總而言之，這是非常強勁的一年，我們也向股東返還了相當可觀的資金。此外，我們還能參與克里斯托夫剛才提到的Mistral計畫。

Very clearly, EUV was the main driver behind it. And you will see it in the pie chart that I will share with you in a moment. It will clarify that it is particularly the leading technology that really contributed to the growth. So both immersion, but first and foremost, also EUV.

很明顯，EUV是背後的主要驅動力。稍後我會分享一張圓餅圖，您就能看到這一點。這張餅圖會清晰地表明，正是這項領先技術真正推動了成長。所以，浸沒式微影固然重要，但最重要的是EUV。

So EUV grew 39% in comparison to last year to 2024, a mix of both more tools, significantly higher sales price of the tools because most of the tools that we sold, most of the low-NA tools that we sold in 2025 were 3,800 tools, which, as you know, saw an increase in productivity from 160 wafers per hour to 220 wafers per hour and of course, a commensurate increase in the sales price.

因此，到 2024 年，EUV 的銷量比去年增長了 39%，這既得益於更多設備的投入，也得益於設備售價的大幅上漲。因為我們銷售的大部分設備，尤其是 2025 年銷售的大部分低 NA 設備，都是 3,800 台。如您所知，這些設備的產能從每小時 160 片晶圓提高到每小時 220 片晶圓，當然，售價也相應上漲。

And obviously, we also had the recognition of a number of EXE tools, High NA tools. So it's in that combination that really EUV was the big driver of growth for us this year.

顯然，我們也獲得了眾多EXE工具和高NA工具的認可。正是這些因素的結合，使得EUV成為我們今年成長的主要驅動力。

Big moment indeed, and Christophe showed it as well, the revenue recognition of the first 5200B really big moment for us because that is the high-volume manufacturing tool on High NA and the fact that we were able to not just chip it but also get it installed and get accepted by the customer and the customer and really looking at putting that tool into high-volume manufacturing for its leading nodes is a very significant moment for the company.

這確實是一個重要的時刻，克里斯托夫也證明了這一點。首台 5200B 晶片的營收確認對我們來說是一個非常重要的時刻，因為這是高 NA 的大規模生產工具。我們不僅能夠為其製造晶片，還能安裝並得到客戶的認可。客戶正在考慮將該工具投入到領先節點的大規模生產中，這對公司來說是一個非常重要的時刻。

Deep UV went down a bit, decreased 6%. If you look at the geographies, you would see that most of the decline would actually come from China. So that's where most of the decline on Deep UV was. Immersion is still quite strong, but particularly on the dry side, it was lower than it was in 2024. But there, the step into the 3D integration market with the introduction of the 260, obviously was another big moment.

深紫外光刻的銷量略有下降，降幅達6%。從地域上看，大部分降幅其實來自中國。因此，深紫外光刻銷量的下降主要集中在中國。浸沒式光刻依然強勁，但尤其是在乾式光刻方面，其銷量低於2024年的水平。不過，隨著260型光刻機的推出，進軍3D整合市場無疑是另一個重要的里程碑。

Application, very strong. Christophe alluded to it, a 20% increase right there with the need for more process control for our customers at the leading nodes. And finally, very, very strong 26% increase in our installed base business, both on the back of service, our installed base and EUV is obviously growing. Therefore, you see a continuous step up of our service revenue from EUV, but also increased appetite in EUV in upgrades. I'll come back to that later.

應用方面表現非常強勁。克里斯托夫也提到了這一點，由於客戶在關鍵節點上對流程控制的需求增加，應用程式業務成長了20%。最後，我們的裝機量業務也實現了非常強勁的26%成長，這主要得益於服務業務的成長，我們的裝機量和EUV業務都在顯著成長。因此，您可以看到我們來自EUV的服務收入持續成長，同時客戶對EUV升級的需求也在增加。稍後我會詳細討論這一點。

This gives you some breakdowns, and I won't call them out at all. But I think if you look at technology, it's interesting to see that the leading technologies, so both EUV and immersion combined, give you 90% of our systems revenue. And I think that really talks volumes, I think, about the shift that Christophe is also talking about, the shift to more and more leading nodes, clearly represented here in the share of technology.

這提供了一些細分數據，我就不一一列舉了。但如果你仔細分析技術，你會發現，領先的技術，例如極紫外光刻和浸沒式光刻，加起來就貢獻了我們系統收入的90%。我認為這充分說明了克里斯托夫所說的轉變，即向更多領先節點的轉變，這一點在技術佔比上體現得淋漓盡致。

In terms of end use, we see memory at 34%, logic at 66%. You see memory actually declining a little bit in terms of percentage. We actually see that flip in 2026. So in 2026, you will see that memory becomes more and more important.

就最終用途而言，記憶體佔比 34%，邏輯電路佔比 66%。實際上，記憶體的佔比略有下降。我們預計這種情況將在 2026 年發生轉變。因此，到 2026 年，記憶體的重要性將日益凸顯。

In terms of regions, a lot to be said there, but I think China is still very, very big, but smaller than it was last time, both in terms of percentage of system sales and also in absolute numbers, you see a bit of a decline in the China market. We expect that decline to continue. As we said, we expect the China business for this year to be around 20% of our total sales. So here it was 33% of total -- of system sales was 29% in terms of total sales, we expect the 29-percentage number to go down to approximately 20% this year.

就區域市場而言，有很多值得探討的地方，但我認為中國市場仍然非常龐大，不過與上次相比有所萎縮，無論是系統銷售額佔比還是絕對數量都略有下降。我們預計這種下滑趨勢將會持續。正如我們之前所說，我們預計今年中國業務將占我們總銷售額的20%左右。此前，中國市場佔總銷售額的33%，而係統銷售額佔比為29%。我們預計今年這一比例將下降至20%左右。

This gives you the net sales by end use over the years. I won't spend too much time on it. Just one fun fact. If you look at the installed base business at EUR8.2 billion, that comes pretty close to the total revenue for ASML in 2017. That just tells you how unbelievably rapidly the company grew.

這顯示了歷年按最終用途劃分的淨銷售額。我不會花太多時間在這上面。這裡分享一個有趣的事實。如果看一下82億歐元的裝機量，這幾乎相當於ASML 2017年的總收入。這足以說明這家公司成長速度有多驚人。

And the fact that we have such a big number in terms of installed base business, obviously, also provides a lot of resilience for the company. So therefore, it's an important number for us to focus on and to continue to increase. This gives you the business over the years.

而且，我們擁有如此龐大的用戶基數，這無疑也為公司提供了強大的韌性。因此，用戶基數是我們重點關注並持續提升的重要指標。這才能確保公司在未來幾年持續發展。

So if you just -- if you take the four year -- so the four-year increase from 2021 to 2025, you would see that the company has grown 75% at the top line. You also see that R&D increases from 2.5 to 4.7, which, of course, was absolutely critical in getting us prepared for all the beautiful products that we're currently shipping to our customers. But I think it's also fair to acknowledge that this huge increase in R&D number has also driven some organizational complexity that Christophe will talk about after my contribution.

所以，如果你只看這四年——也就是從2021年到2025年這四年的成長——你會發現公司營收成長了75%。你還會看到研發投入從2.5成長到4.7，這當然對我們準備向客戶交付所有精美產品至關重要。但我認為，研發投入的大幅成長也帶來了一些組織架構上的複雜性，克里斯托夫將在我發言之後談到這一點。

So this gives you the overview. And as you see, earnings per share, an interesting number, round it 25, 25 by 25 is something that you might easily recall on a go-forward basis.

以上就是概覽。正如你所看到的，每股盈餘是一個很有趣的數字，我們把它四捨五入到25，25乘以25，這樣你以後就很容易記住了。

In terms of return to shareholders, if we look at dividend, the total dividend that we proposed to the AGM for the year is EUR7.50. This quarter, we'll do EUR1.60 per ordinary share as an interim dividend in Q1. And therefore, if the AGM accepts our proposal, we would have a final dividend of EUR2.70, and that's a significant increase over last year.

就股東回報而言，如果我們看一下股息，我們向股東大會提議的年度股息總額為每股7.50歐元。本季度，我們將派發每股1.60歐元的普通股中期股利（第一季）。因此，如果股東大會接受我們的提議，我們將派發每股2.70歐元的末期股息，比去年同期有顯著成長。

In terms of share buyback, we did not complete the full program of share buyback. As you see here, EUR7.6 billion out of the total program of EUR12 billion. We did announce a new program, EUR12 billion over a three-year period.

就股份回購而言，我們並未完成全部回購計畫。如您所見，我們僅完成了76億歐元，遠低於120億歐元的總額。我們已宣布一項新的計劃，將在三年內回購120億歐元。

In terms of outlook for the quarter, we expect net revenue between EUR8.2 billion and EUR8.9 billion with a gross margin between 51% and 53%. Look again at the installed base management sales, 2.4. So last quarter, 2.1 goes up to 2.4. What it really tells you is that the appetite from customers when it comes to upgrades is very, very high, because in the client that Christophe was describing, where customers really have a lot of appetite to increase their capacity as quickly as they can. Of course, on the one hand, they will try and complete their fab billing as soon as they can, such that they can new tools in.

展望本季度，我們預期淨收入在82億歐元至89億歐元之間，毛利率在51%至53%之間。再來看看已安裝基礎管理銷售額，2.4。上季為2.1，本季成長至2.4。這充分錶明客戶對升級的需求非常旺盛，正如Christophe所描述的那樣，客戶迫切希望盡快提升產能。當然，一方面，他們會盡快完成晶圓廠的結算，以便盡快投入使用新設備。

But in the meantime, once these fabs are still in construction, the fastest way to get extra capacity is really to make sure that the tools are squeezed to the maximum, therefore, to put as much upgrades on the tool as possible. And that's what you see here, and that really contributes to very, very strong installed base sales going up again this quarter.

但同時，在這些晶圓廠仍在建造期間，快速提升產能的真正途徑是確保現有設備得到最大限度的利用，也就是盡可能進行設備升級。而這正是我們目前所看到的，也正是本季強勁的裝機量銷售額再次成長的重要原因。

So the gross margin, 51% to 53% R&D and SG&A costs nicely under troll.

因此，毛利率為 51% 至 53%，研發和銷售、管理及行政成本低於預期。

For the full year, EUR34 billion to EUR39 billion, really on the back of all the developments that Christophe talked about. So the real steam engine behind this growth is once again EUV. So we once again expect the EUV business to go up significantly this year.

全年營收預計在340億歐元至390億歐元之間，主要得益於克里斯托夫提到的所有進展。因此，推動這一成長的真正引擎依然是EUV光刻技術。所以我們再次預計，EUV光刻業務今年將大幅成長。

We also expect the installed base business to go up this year, and it will go a little bit at the detriment of the non-EUV business. We expect that to be about flattish. So non-EUV business is expected to flattish from '25 to '26. With us moving parts for the leading nodes, so for the big customers, both in memory and advanced logic, we actually expect the Deep UV business to go up a bit. As I mentioned, in China, we expect the China business will go down.

我們也預期今年的裝機量業務將會成長，但這會略微影響非EUV業務。我們預計非EUV業務將基本持平。因此，我們預計非EUV業務在2025年至2026年期間將保持穩定。由於我們為領先的製程節點（即大型客戶，包括記憶體和先進邏輯元件）提供零件，我們預計深紫外光刻業務實際上會略有成長。正如我之前提到的，我們預計中國市場的業務將會下降。

Metrology and inspection, we expect to be quite strong. So those are more or less the moving parts within the non-EUV business.

計量和檢測業務預計會非常強勁。以上大致就是非極紫外光刻業務的主要組成部分。

Again, for the full year, EUR34 billion to EUR39 billion, which at the midpoint after a growth of 16% in '25. At the midpoint, you would be looking at a 12% increase in this year with good potential as the bandwidth also suggests. Gross margin 51% to 53% and annualized effective tax rate of 17%.

全年營收預計在340億歐元至390億歐元之間，這是2025年成長16%後的中間值。以中間值計算，今年預計成長12%，且成長潛力良好，頻寬也印證了這一點。毛利率預計在51%至53%之間，年化有效稅率為17%。

And that concludes my presentation. And as I mentioned, Christophe still has a part for you on the streamlining of our engineering and innovation function.

我的演講到此結束。正如我之前提到的，克里斯托夫還有一部分內容要和大家分享，內容是關於如何精簡我們的工程和創新職能。

Thank you, Roger. So I'm losing my mic. Yeah, we don't have AI everywhere as you can see.

謝謝你，羅傑。我的麥克風好像壞了。是啊，如你所見，人工智慧並沒有無所不在。

Good. Yeah, I have one slide I want to share with you on the action we are taking basically to strengthen our innovation and engineering team. So I think that the net results of that, which is 1,700 people leaving the company, I think, has been picked up pretty clearly already this morning.

好的。是的，我還有一張投影片想和大家分享，主要內容是我們為了加強創新和工程團隊所採取的措施。我認為，這些措施的最終結果——也就是大約1700人離開公司——今天早上已經很明顯地顯現出來了。

What I want to do is to give you some background. And of course, you understand listening to our outlook, listening to the numbers. We are not doing that in any case because we are in trouble because we need to save money, et cetera, et cetera.

我想先跟你們介紹一下背景。當然，你們也明白，聽我們談談看法、聽我們分析數據是很重要的。我們這樣做並不是因為我們遇到了麻煩，也不是因為我們需要省錢等等原因。

Now the reason we are doing that is that we have been growing very fast. And this is also true for a technology team or innovation engine. And as you know, the technology team, the innovation engine of ASML has been the reason for our success. It's been true for many, many years, and this is still going to be true for many, many years to come.

我們之所以這樣做，是因為我們發展得非常迅速。技術團隊或創新引擎也是如此。如您所知，ASML 的技術團隊和創新引擎一直是我們成功的關鍵。多年來一直如此，未來很多年也將繼續如此。

And as we have said in 2025, we want to continue to innovate more. This is why we engage in AI. This is why we engage in 3D integration. This is why we have a long roadmap on EUV, and we believe that innovation will for many, many years to come, define our success.

正如我們在2025年所言，我們希望繼續加強創新。這就是我們投身人工智慧的原因，也是我們致力於3D整合的原因。也因為如此，我們制定了EUV技術的長期發展路線圖。我們相信，在未來的許多年裡，創新將決定我們的成功。

But when we listen to the feedback of many of our stakeholders, they have told us in the last few years that we're not very agile in fact. And we are not, I would say, responsive enough. So our customer are pointing to the need for us on technology to be able to respond much faster to work on quality, to work on new product.

但過去幾年，我們聽取了許多利害關係人的回饋，他們告訴我們，實際上我們的反應不夠敏捷。而且，我認為，我們的反應速度也不夠快。因此，我們的客戶指出，我們需要在技術方面做出更快的回應，以提高產品質量，並加快新產品的研發。

A very important feedback we got is from our whole engineers who told us, well, a lot of the time we spend in ASML is not anymore on innovation, right? Because the organization has become so complex. We have so many people steering us in different direction that we have to spend a bigger part of our time just dealing with that. And this has been a very, very strong, and I would say, loud message from our people, and we felt the need basically to address that. Our supplier, if you talk to them, they also tell us the same, and therefore, we felt the need to move.

我們收到的一條非常重要的回饋來自我們所有的工程師，他們告訴我們，在ASML，我們現在花在創新上的時間太多了，對吧？因為組織架構變得非常複雜。太多的人在各自為政，導致我們不得不把更多的時間花在應對這些瑣事上。這是我們員工發出的一個非常強烈、甚至可以說非常響亮的呼聲，我們覺得有必要解決這個問題。我們的供應商也表達了同樣的看法，因此，我們覺得有必要做出改變。

So you heard about the number, 1,700. I'd like to give you a bit more color to this number. If you look at our technology organization today, we have about 4,500 leaders, which is quite a bit. When we look at a future organization where we simplify our processes, where we reduce the number of steering access towards our engineers, we believe basically that we need about 1,500 leader to run this organization. So it's a 3,000 less leaders needed if we are successful in simplifying.

你們都聽到了1700這個數字。我想再詳細解釋一下。我們目前的技術部門大約有4500名領導，人數相當多。展望未來，如果我們簡化流程，減少工程師的決策權限，我們認為只需要大約1500名領導者就能維持部門運作。也就是說，如果我們成功簡化流程，就能減少3,000名領導。

So out of the 3,000 people that we don't need basically to lead the team, we are going to create 1,400 engineering positions. So we're going to add, in fact, some engineering bandwidth to work on existing product, to work on future products. We want to, in fact, have out of this action more engineers and less, I will say, leadership, so that engineers can be fully enable to do their job.

因此，在原本不需要領導團隊的3000人中，我們將創造1400個工程師職位。實際上，我們將增加一些工程資源，用於現有產品和未來產品的開發。我們希望透過這項舉措，增加工程師的數量，減少領導層，從而讓工程師能夠充分發揮他們的才能。

And as a result of that, if you do the math, we have 1,600 people out of the technology team that will not have a job in ASML anymore. Now the difference between the 1,600 and 1,700 is 100 people coming out of IT when we have a similar situation, similar feedback and where there we believe that about 100 leading position are not needed.

因此，如果你仔細計算一下，你會發現ASML技術團隊將有1,600人失業。而1600人和1700人之間的區別在於，在類似的情況下，IT部門有100人離職，我們收到了類似的回饋，並且我們認為大約100個領導職位是不必要的。

So this is a bit the math. We want to really boost again our engineering capability, our innovation engine. We want to improve, I would say, the satisfaction of our engineers, our customer, our supplier. And of course, this come at the cost of a very difficult decision we had to make. We explained our employees this morning, this is most probably the most difficult decision the management team ever had to make in ASML. But we do it because we truly believe that this is the right thing to do for the company, for our stakeholders, starting with our employees, and to basically continue to be this great company moving forward.

所以，這其中牽涉到一些實際問題。我們希望再次大幅提升我們的工程能力和創新引擎。我們希望提高工程師、客戶和供應商的滿意度。當然，這需要我們做出一個非常艱難的決定。今天早上我們已經向員工解釋過，這很可能是ASML管理團隊有史以來做出的最艱難的決定。但我們之所以這樣做，是因為我們真心相信，這對公司、對所有利害關係人（首先是我們的員工）來說都是正確的選擇，也是為了讓我們能夠繼續保持這家偉大公司的地位。

So that's a bit more background. And with that, I think we'd like to take some questions from you. Thank you very much.

以上是一些背景資訊。接下來，我們想聽聽大家的問題。非常感謝。

Okay. Thank you. So we have some questions online, and we have some people here in the room. And because you all came here, I think you should go first. So let's ask some questions in the room first.

好的，謝謝。我們收到了一些線上問題，房間裡也有一些人。既然你們都來了，我想應該由你們先來提問。那麼，我們先請房間裡的各位提問吧。

Please state your name and your publication first, so everyone knows.

請先說明您的姓名和所屬刊物，以便大家都能了解。

I'm Sarah Jacob. I'm from Bloomberg News. Regarding the job cuts that you announced today, what kind of restructuring costs or charges can we expect from this?

我是薩拉·雅各布，來自彭博新聞社。關於您今天宣布的裁員計劃，我們可以預期會產生哪些重組成本或費用？

That's obviously subject to the discussions that we're having with the Work Council and first and foremost, union. So cannot talk about that, but these costs in the grand scheme of ASML would not be considered material. Well, the finalization of number is very much subject to discussion, but not materially in our numbers.

這顯然取決於我們正在與職工委員會以及最重要的工會進行的討論。所以現在還不能談論這個問題，但就ASML的整體營運而言，這些成本並不算重大。最終的數字還有待商榷，但就我們的預算而言，這些成本並不算實質的。

Bert van Dijk, Financieele Dagblad. I got a question about -- there's a lot of talk about capacity expansion from your customers. We've seen a lot of announcements. But how much of those announcements is related to real capacity expansion? And what part is CapEx inflation, so to speak, because the cost of a wafer is increasing. How sustainable is that? Can you elaborate a little bit on that?

《金融日報》的伯特‧範‧迪克問：最近客戶都在討論產能擴張的問題，我們也看到了許多相關的公告。但這些公告中有多少是真正意義上的產能擴張？又有多少是資本支出通膨導致的，畢竟晶圓成本正在上漲。這種擴張模式的可持續性如何？能否詳細解釋一下？

Well, I think so, I talked about short and midterm. So I think that visibility we get from our customers is mostly for the next couple of years. And when we talk about capacity expansion, we talk about new systems. So that's why we said that if we look at 2026, we expect to ship quite a few more EUV tool. It's also true with metrology with inspection. I think Roger was rightfully stressing the progress of our installed base business, which also include upgrades, and we will see also a lot of that.

嗯，我認為是這樣，我剛才談到了短期和中期規劃。所以我覺得我們從客戶那裡了解到的情況主要集中在未來幾年。當我們談到產能擴張時，我們指的是新系統。因此，我們說如果展望2026年，我們預計會出貨相當數量的EUV光刻機。計量檢測領域也是如此。我認為羅傑強調我們現有設備業務的進展是正確的，這其中也包括升級，我們也會看到這方面的成長。

So I would say when you hear our customer talking about capacity expansion, this translate directly into need for more tools. And for a long time, we heard our customer's customer, sometimes our customer's customer's customer talking about expansion, and this was still a bit far away from us.

所以，我想說，當我們的客戶談論產能擴張時，這直接意味著他們需要更多的工具。很長一段時間以來，我們聽到的都是我們客戶的客戶，有時甚至是客戶的客戶的客戶在談論擴張，但這離我們來說仍然有點遙遠。

In the last three months, if you have listened to TSMC, Samsung, Micron. Micron has been announcing groundbreaking almost every week for the last few weeks. There, you have a direct translation basically into shipment for us. And we have not said that in our talk, but also build up of capacity. So of course, a lot of that will affect positively not only ASML, but the entire supply chain here in the region.

過去三個月，如果你有關注台積電、三星和美光，你會發現美光最近幾週幾乎每週都在宣布突破性進展。這些進展基本上直接轉化為出貨量。雖然我們在演講中沒有提到，但產能的提升也至關重要。因此，這些進展不僅會對ASML產生正面影響，也會對整個地區的供應鏈產生正面影響。

Okay. Let's turn to an online question and get back to you then. So a question from Financial Times. Please can you talk a bit more about how the AI memory shortage is driving your business? And to what extent those customers are being more aggressive in their capacity expansion than logic?

好的。我們先來看一個來自《金融時報》的線上提問，稍後再回答。請問您能否詳細談談人工智慧記憶體短缺是如何影響貴公司業務的？而這些客戶在擴展記憶體容量方面比邏輯運算方面更加積極主動的程度如何？

I will start. I think that it's difficult to say if logic or DRAM is the bottleneck for AI today. I will still pick mostly memory at this point of time. And the reason for that is that it comes to memory, the demand for high bandwidth memory, which is the AI memory is extremely high. But the demand for DDR memory, which is for mobile PC, is also very high. And as a result, we have seen basically the price of DRAM going up significantly in the last few weeks.

我先來說說。我認為現在很難說邏輯電路還是DRAM才是人工智慧的瓶頸。目前我仍然主要看好記憶體。原因在於，高頻寬記憶體（也就是人工智慧所需的記憶體）的需求非常高，而DDR記憶體（也就是行動PC所需的記憶體）的需求也很高。因此，我們看到DRAM的價格在過去幾週大幅上漲。

Therefore, there's a need for capacity. And our memory customers are moving very aggressively. I mentioned a few examples. And the reason for that is when you have such a demand for capacity, capacity is also market share. And if we look at 2026, we know that the memory demand will be very, very tight because our customers are saying that publicly. So there is a huge appetite and it started most probably end of last year for our DRAM customer to really build up capacity as quickly as possible. And that's the dynamic we are in which, of course, has a major positive benefit for ASML.

因此，產能需求旺盛。我們的記憶體客戶正在積極擴張，我剛才舉了幾個例子。原因在於，當產能需求如此強勁時，產能本身就意味著市場佔有率。展望2026年，我們知道記憶體需求將會非常緊張，因為我們的客戶已經公開表達了這個觀點。所以市場需求龐大，而且很可能從去年底開始，我們的DRAM客戶就開始盡快提升產能。這就是我們目前所處的市場動態，當然，這對ASML來說是一個重要的利多因素。

Okay. Thank you. Mark, in the room, I see some hands.

好的，謝謝。馬克，我看到房間裡有幾隻手。

Sylvester Klaasman, [Studio 140]. How does the stabilizing AI market influence the perspective of the amount of jobs you're about growing in Eindhoven?

Sylvester Klaasman，[Studio 140]。人工智慧市場的穩定將如何影響您在埃因霍溫預計創造的就業數量？

Well, so if you look at the big picture, so I mentioned again our long-term forecast as we establish it in November 2024, where we still see us going towards EUR44 billion to EUR60 billion revenue, which means that we see still need for more capacity. Even as we speak, this year, we will be adding jobs in manufacturing and customer service in order to support basically that need.

好的，從宏觀角度來看，正如我之前提到的，我們所製定的長期預測（截至2024年11月）仍然認為，我們的營收將達到440億歐元至600億歐元，這意味著我們仍然需要更大的產能。事實上，就在今年，我們將在製造和客戶服務領域增加就業崗位，以滿足這一需求。

So I will say the long-term trajectory is still a trajectory of growth. We take today a very specific action on a very, very focused part of the organization, which is the technology team and in fact, even focused specifically on the leadership of the technology team. But it doesn't change fundamentally our growth trajectory and therefore, our commitment to people, but also as I've shown to footprint, et cetera, et cetera, the supply chain I could add to that.

所以我認為，長期發展軌跡依然是成長軌跡。今天，我們針對組織中一個非常具體的部門——技術團隊，甚至具體到技術團隊的領導層——採取了非常具體的行動。但這並不會從根本上改變我們的成長軌跡，也不會改變我們對員工的承諾。此外，正如我之前在足跡分析等方面所展示的，供應鏈也同樣如此。

And I think it's very important to understand that even as a company grow and is very successful, there's still a need once a while to make sure that some of the key elements of the company and for us, that's the technology. Technology is really our heart. We have to make sure that we keep the heart in the best possible shape. And the action we are taking today is difficult, is painful. But the intention is to make sure that that innovation engine keeps going so that as the market grow, we keep our very strong leadership position in the market.

我認為非常重要的一點是，即使公司成長並取得巨大成功，也仍然需要不時確保公司的一些關鍵要素——對我們而言就是技術——保持最佳狀態。科技才是我們真正的命脈。我們必須確保這顆命脈始終處於最佳狀態。我們今天採取的行動艱難而痛苦，但我們的目標是確保創新引擎持續運轉，從而在市場不斷增長的同時，保持我們在市場上的領先地位。

Hi. Marc Hijink, NRC. I have two questions. One relating to the reorganization and the other one is to being prepared to this huge demand in new machines. First of all, the reorganization we refer to the technology team. Does it mean that something changes within the internal structure as well regarding D&E or R&D?

您好，我是加拿大國家研究委員會的 Marc Hijink。我有兩個問題。一個是關於重組的，另一個是關於如何應對新設備的巨大需求。首先，我們所說的重組是指技術團隊的重組。這是否意味著研發部門的內部結構也會有所變動？

And the other question is when it comes to being prepared for this new up cycle, is your supply chain also prepared? So did you do some stockpiling there? Or does everybody have to expand?

另一個問題是，為了因應這輪新的上漲週期，你們的供應鏈是否也準備好了？你們是否進行了庫存儲備？還是大家都需要擴大規模？

I'll take the first one and leave you the second one. So I think the short answer to your first question is yes. I think that the transformation, the change in the organization will be mostly around D&E, not only, but mostly around D&E. The leadership I was referring to is mostly within D&E. That's also why Marco, our CTO, together with Jose are taking the lead also on that activity.

我先回答第一個問題，第二個問題留給你。所以，我認為你對第一個問題的簡短答案是肯定的。我認為組織架構的轉型和變革主要會圍繞著設計與工程（D&E）展開，不僅限於此，但主要圍繞著D&E。我提到的領導力也主要來自D&E部門。這也是為什麼我們的技術長Marco和Jose會共同領導這項工作的原因。

But since innovation is the heart of the company, everything else is connected to that. And by improving the organization, the D&E organization, we also improve the interfaces with operation. We improve the interfaces with our customer, and we improve the interfaces with our supplier, right? So all the people who told us basically, you've got to do something better, should benefit from that.

但創新是公司的核心，其他一切都與之息息相關。透過改善組織架構，特別是研發部門的架構，我們也改善了與營運部門的溝通，改善了與客戶的溝通，也改善了與供應商的溝通，對吧？所以，所有那些曾經告訴我們「你們需要做得更好」的人，最終都會從中受益。

So a lot of the work will be focused on D&E. In fact, what we talk about today, I would say, practically doesn't concern the very large majority of the team ASML, but the impact, I think, will go beyond D&E.

因此，大部分工作將集中在設計與工程（D&E）方面。事實上，我們今天討論的內容，我認為，實際上與ASML團隊的絕大多數成員關係不大，但其影響我認為將超越設計與工程的範疇。

Mark, on the capacity, what we've done, as you know, in the past couple of years is to put in what we call the long lead-time items, which means that everything that takes, let's say, longer than 12, 18 months to realize is in place in order to get to a much higher volume. So that means factory space, et cetera, et cetera. We've done that, and we've worked with our supply chain for them to do that as well.

馬克，關於產能，如你所知，過去幾年我們一直在推進所謂的「長週期產品」的生產，這意味著所有需要超過12到18個月才能完成的項目都已到位，以便實現更高的產量。這包括廠房空間等等。我們已經完成了這些工作，並與我們的供應鏈合作夥伴共同努力，確保他們也能做到這一點。

So what we're doing now based on the very strong signals that we're getting from our customers and also them indicating that they believe this development is sustainable, we're now making sure that every quarter, we increase our move rate. Because as you will appreciate, you cannot move from 44 units in 2025 to 80 units in 2026, doesn't work that way.

所以，基於我們從客戶那裡收到的強烈回饋，以及他們表示相信這種發展模式是可持續的，我們現在正在確保每個季度都提高搬遷速度。因為您應該明白，你不可能從2025年的44套搬遷到2026年的80套，這樣做行不通。

So you gradually need to crank up your move rate, and that's exactly what we're doing right now. We're doing that. We have a very solid understanding also with our supply chain. They're doing the same thing. And that will lead to a very, very meaningful increase in our capacity this year, but also moving forward.

所以，我們需要逐步提高出貨速度，而這正是我們目前正在做的。我們正在這樣做。我們與供應鏈方面也有著非常穩固的共識。他們也在做同樣的事情。這將使我們今年的產能以及未來的產能都顯著提升。

I'm going to go to one online and then get back to you. Could you share how ASML's R&D spending is currently divided between EUV-related development and non-EUV technologies? This is a question from the Chemical Daily in Tokyo and we have a lot of people from Japan online watching us. So that's really nice.

我打算上網查一下，然後再回覆你。可以分享一下ASML目前的研發經費是如何分配在EUV相關技術和非EUV技術上的嗎？這是東京《化學日報》提出的問題，有很多日本讀者在網路上關注我們，這真是太好了。

The lion's share of the R&D expense really is an EUV, right? Because on EUV, we have both High NA, we have the low-NA platform that where we still see a lot of potential to develop that. And we're also working on what we call the high perform platform.

研發費用的大頭確實都花在了極紫外光刻（EUV）上，對吧？因為在極紫外光刻方面，我們既有高數值孔徑（NA）平台，也有低數值孔徑（NA）平台，我們認為低數值孔徑平台還有很大的發展潛力。此外，我們也正在研發所謂的高效能平台。

So we have three very significant work streams in the D&E organization to focus on EUV. So without a doubt, EUV is the lion's share of the development. But that said, we do have road maps for the other products as well. You heard us talk about the 260. You might have heard about the 870, which is a platform that really significantly increases the output capability in the drive business. So we're working there as well. Lion's share is really focused on EUV.

因此，我們在研發部門有三個非常重要的工作流程專注於極紫外光微影（EUV）技術。毫無疑問，EUV佔據了研發工作的絕大部分。但即便如此，我們也制定了其他產品的路線圖。您可能聽過我們之前提到的260，也可能聽過870，這是一個能夠顯著提升驅動業務輸出能力的平台。所以我們也在積極研發這個平台。總之，大部分精力仍集中在EUV技術上。

iels Waarlo, VoxCant. I had a question about the China business, which is going down quite dramatically. I was wondering whether it's also going down in absolute numbers. And if that's the case, what's driving that? Where it just still a backlog thing or whether something else is going on as well?

iels Waarlo，VoxCant。我有個關於中國業務的問題，這個業務下滑得相當厲害。我想知道它的絕對數量是否也在下降。如果是這樣，是什麼原因造成的？只是訂單積壓的問題，還是還有其他因素？

Well, it is going down in absolute numbers as well, right? So if you do the math on the system sales, if you take the chart, you take the percentage and you apply it to the total system sales, you would see that actually it goes down in system sales, I think, something like EUR850 million. But you can do the math yourself and verify whether my memory serves me well here. But it's clearly going down from 24 to 25 and also at the 20% number that we indicated for this year, it will go down further.

嗯，絕對數量也在下降，對吧？如果你計算系統銷售額，看看圖表，把百分比應用到系統總銷售額上，你會發現系統銷售額實際上下降了，我記得大概下降了8.5億歐元。你可以自己算一下，看看我的記憶是否準確。但很明顯，它從24到25%下降了，而且按照我們之前預測的20%的降幅，今年還會進一步下降。

What's going on there? Well, first of all, it's normalizing, right? Because I think the reality is we should ask ourselves a question what was going on in previous years. What was going on in previous years is that over the COVID period, we build up a huge backlog because we -- and in fact, we underserve the Chinese market during the COVID days. As a result of that, a huge backlog has been built, and we have been executing on that backlog in the past couple of years.

那裡發生了什麼事？首先，情況正在恢復正常，對吧？因為我認為我們應該捫心自問，過去幾年發生了什麼事。過去幾年，在新冠疫情期間，我們積壓了大量訂單，因為——事實上，在疫情期間，我們對中國市場的服務不足。結果，積壓訂單激增，而過去幾年我們一直在努力處理這些訂單。

So at a certain point in time, we already expected China to normalize. Frankly, the very strong China sales still in 2025 surprised us a bit. But given all the dynamics that we're looking at right now, we think 20% is probably the right number, which, by the way, still gives you at the midpoint close to EUR7.5 billion of sales. So it's not in any way falling off a cliff, right? But it is reduced in comparison to what it was last year.

所以，在某個時間點，我們已經預期中國市場會恢復正常。坦白說，2025年中國市場的強勁銷售表現確實讓我們有些意外。但考慮到我們目前觀察到的所有動態因素，我們認為20%可能是比較合理的數字，順便一提，這個數字的中間值仍然接近75億歐元。所以，銷售額並沒有斷崖式下跌，對吧？但與去年相比確實有所下降。

So it's more normalization than that anything very spectacular is going on there.

所以這更多的是一種正常化現象，而不是有什麼特別引人注目的事情發生。

So a lot of interest in the room. So let's go back to the room. Dan?

看來大家對這個房間很有興趣。那我們回房間吧。丹？

Dan from [Show Tweakers]. I have two questions. The first one is you mentioned that the EUV business will grow quite rapidly this year. I was wondering what share of that will be High NA. I think you mentioned this is really a preparation year for the coming years for insertion. Just wondering how many machines do you plan to ship this year.

來自 Show Tweakers 的 Dan，我有兩個問題。第一個問題是，您提到 EUV 業務今年會快速成長。我想知道其中 High NA 會佔多大？您好像說過今年主要是為未來幾年的插件業務做準備。我想問一下，您今年的出貨量計畫是多少台機器？

And the second one is, do you have a progress update on Hyper NA since the year you'll make a firm decision on it? And maybe the common platform as well.

第二個問題是，自從你們決定最終決定以來，Hyper NA計畫是否有任何進展更新？或許通用平台方面也有相關資訊。

I'll take the first one, you take the second one. So on the -- the other way around. So the vast share of the growth will clearly be in low-NA, right? So because it all goes into high-volume manufacturing because there is such a big need for customers to grow there.

我拿第一個，你拿第二個。反過來就是這樣。所以，大部分成長顯然會在北美低端市場，對吧？因為所有成長都將用於大批量生產，因為客戶在這些地區有著巨大的成長需求。

So that's where the lion's share goes High-NA will just continue to go along the lines of what Christophe has described earlier on, which is the three phases, and we're not yet in the high-volume manufacturing phase. Although as we did point out, the fact that one customer has accepted, signed off on the 5200B, our first high-volume manufacturing tool, of course, is an important step in that direction. But the lion's share of the growth this year will be low-NA.

所以，大部分成長將來自高流量（High-NA）領域，並將繼續按照克里斯托夫先前描述的三個階段進行，我們目前尚未進入大批量生產階段。當然，正如我們之前提到的，一位客戶已經驗收並簽署了我們的首款大批量生產設備5200B，這無疑是朝著這個方向邁出的重要一步。但今年成長的大部分將來自低流量（Low-NA）領域。

Yeah. On the Hyper NA, so before I go there, I need to take a bit of a step back. So we talk about low-NA, we talk about High NA. I think we talked about Hyper NA because we see that in the future, there may be a need for even a more advanced litho system. And we could end up in a war. I'm talking 10 years from now where the customer use basically each one of those three systems.

是的。關於超高精準度光刻（Hyper NA），在深入探討之前，我需要先回顧一下。我們討論過低精度光刻（Low-NA），也討論過高精度光刻（High NA）。我認為我們之所以討論超高精度光刻，是因為我們看到未來可能需要更先進的光刻系統。我們甚至可能因此陷入一場競爭。我指的是十年後，客戶基本上會同時使用這三種系統。

Now this being said, when you look 10 years ahead, it's very difficult to know exactly when this will happen. And in order to not have to answer that question today, what we did is developed a program, which we call high-productivity platform. So Roger mentioned it as one of the key program in EUV, and that program basically consists in defining an EUV platform that will come to the market early next decade, and that will be able to support low-NA, this major productivity improvement. We look at more than 400 wafer per hour. High NA, also with major improvement, and potentially Hyper NA.

話雖如此，展望未來十年，很難準確預測何時會發生這種情況。為了避免現在就面臨這個問題，我們開發了一個名為「高產能平台」的計畫。羅傑曾提到，這是EUV技術的關鍵項目之一。此計畫的核心是打造一個EUV平台，預計在下一個十年初推向市場，並支援低數值孔徑（NA）技術，從而大幅提升產能。我們預計每小時可處理超過400片晶圓。高數值孔徑（NA）技術也將顯著提升，並有可能支援超高數值孔徑（Hyper NA）技術。

So we're designing a platform basically that we'll be able to receive ultimately low-NA optic, High NA optic, Hyper NA optic. This give us basically the full flexibility over time to decide exactly when and how we should introduce Hyper NA.

所以我們正在設計一個平台，最終能夠接收低數值孔徑（NA）、高數值孔徑（NA）和超高數值孔徑（Hyper NA）的光學元件。這讓我們能夠隨著時間的推移，靈活地決定何時以及如何引入超高數值孔徑（Hyper NA）光學元件。

So the team has done a lot of work. So if you talk to our engineers, they tell you we could do it more, but there's no need for it tomorrow. So what we will do is, again, just continue to prepare for it. If you follow our technical conference, there will be a presentation on that a SPA in a few weeks from now, so you get a bit more. But the key is to be prepared basically to serve the whole market with EUV and the high-productivity platform program we have put in place, and we're executing on allow us to do that exactly.

所以團隊已經做了很多工作。如果你和我們的工程師交流，他們會告訴你我們還可以做得更多，但明天沒必要這麼做。因此，我們接下來要做的，仍然是繼續為此做好準備。如果你有在關注我們的技術會議，幾週後我們會有一個關於SPA的演示，屆時你會了解更多資訊。但關鍵在於，我們要做好準備，利用我們已經建立並正在執行的高產能平台計劃，為整個市場提供EUV服務。

I have a question from online, and then I'll get back to you, Toby. Maybe we can do this quickly, but I think it's a question that a lot of people ask themselves. This is from [Lusine Nouvel] in France.

托比，我收到網路提問，稍後會回覆你。或許我們可以快速解答，但我認為很多人都會問自己這個問題。這個問題來自法國的盧西娜·努維爾。

You're going to cut 1,700 jobs, but you say you want more engineers. Are you planning to hire in 2026 and beyond? And if so, do you have a figure? Will this offset the 1,700 job cuts? Or will ASML's workforce ultimately decrease?

你們要裁員1700人，但又說想要更多工程師。你們打算在2026年及以後繼續招募嗎？如果計劃招聘，具體數字是多少？這些新增招募能否抵銷裁員1700人的影響力？還是說ASML的員工總數最終會減少？

Yeah. So I think two steps. So first, as I explained, we free practically about 3,000 people out of the action we take on the leadership in the technology team. And out of those 3,000 people, we already create 1,400 position. So that's the first thing.

是的。我認為可以分兩步驟走。首先，正如我剛才解釋的，我們透過對技術團隊領導層採取的行動，實際上釋放了大約3000人的工作。在這3000人中，我們已經創造了1400個新的職位。這是第一步。

The second thing I've said is that a lot of that is done to enable, I would say, the full potential of engineers. So our engineers tell us today, well, maybe we spend 20%, 30% of our time not doing engineering, but doing meetings, talking to many different managers, et cetera, et cetera. Well, if we take that away from them, we give them also more bandwidth for development.

我剛才說的第二點是，這樣做很大程度是為了充分發揮工程師的潛力。我們的工程師現在告訴我們，他們可能有 20% 到 30% 的時間不是在做工程，而是在開會、和各種經理溝通等等。如果我們能幫他們減少這些時間，就能讓他們有更多精力投入開發工作。

So we also expect basically that our engineering workforce will be able to create more moving forward for the same amount of people. So it means that as we go through this transformation, we get 1,400 more people and we get a lot more of everyone else in the organization.

因此，我們預計，在人員數量不變的情況下，我們的工程團隊能夠創造更多價值。這意味著，隨著轉型推進，我們將新增1,400名員工，組織內其他所有部門的員工人數也將大幅增加。

How this will really play out, we don't know, but we believe that this could fuel quite a few of our programs basically moving forward. So we will continue to hire people based on our need, and we do that today on operation. We'll do that if we need to -- on D&E because we can afford it or so, let's be honest. But we also expect that at least the next couple of years, the gain we could make by enabling our engineers to the full extent will create a lot more bandwidth for us to develop.

最終結果如何，我們尚不得而知，但我們相信這能極大地推動我們許多項目的發展。因此，我們將繼續根據實際需求招募人員，目前我們在營運部門就是這麼做的。如果需要，我們也會這樣做──例如在研發部門，因為我們負擔得起，坦白說就是這樣。但我們也預計，至少在未來幾年內，充分發揮工程師的潛力將為我們提供更多的研發資源。

Okay, that's clear. Thank you. Toby?

好的，明白了。謝謝。托比？

Hi. This is Toby from Reuters, Toby Sterling. Ballpark question. The only thing that did better than ASML's price in the past year is gold and silver. So I'm wondering if you guys can maybe say maybe not so much ASML, but how is this going to affect your industry? The rise in price for gold and precious metals?

您好，我是路透社的托比史特林。我有個問題想請教一下。過去一年裡，唯一表現優於ASML股價的只有黃金和白銀。所以我想問各位，或許ASML股價本身受到的影響不大，但黃金和貴金屬價格上漲會對貴產業產生怎樣的影響？

Gold and silver, I would say, our industry overall, I think it's very small. I think it's very, very small. I think from all the things we worry about -- I tell you something, we worry a lot more about energy cost than gold or silver, because energy is, as we've discussed in the past, most probably, we love AI, we love the opportunity. I think Elon Musk say that also last week in Denver, but energy is most probably the one thing to watch to make sure that this industry keeps going.

就我們整個行業而言，我認為黃金和白銀的規模非常小。真的非常非常小。我們擔心的事情那麼多——我必須說，我們更擔心的是能源成本，而不是黃金或白銀，因為正如我們之前討論過的，能源很可能……我們熱愛人工智慧，我們熱愛它帶來的機會。我想馬斯克上週在丹佛也說過類似的話，但能源很可能是確保這個產業能持續發展的關鍵。

And now the good news for us is one way to reduce energy consumption is to move to more advanced chips because they reduce basically power consumption. So that's also an opportunity. But I think if there's one thing this industry has to worry about as a whole is energy, cost, and I would even say availability. Gold, silver, I think were okay.

現在對我們來說的好消息是，降低能耗的方法之一是採用更先進的晶片，因為它們能顯著降低功耗。所以這也是一個機會。但我認為，如果說整個產業有什麼需要關注的，那就是能源、成本，甚至還有供應。黃金和白銀，我認為目前還可以。

Hi. Paul van Gerven from Bits&Chips. Do you expect to max out on capacity this year? And if so, what will be the bottleneck?

您好。我是Bits&Chips公司的Paul van Gerven。您預計今年產能會達到極限嗎？如果會，瓶頸會是什麼？

I think the question is not necessarily just for us whether we're going to be maxed out. I mean, it will be a very busy year, that's for sure. But I think in everyone trying to drive up capability, we also need to look at our customers. So I think everyone will be scrambling to get more capacity. It starts with our customers because we can ship tools, but our customers also need to be in a position to receive them, and therefore, they need the fabs to be done.

我認為問題不只在於我們是否會達到產能極限。我的意思是，今年肯定會非常忙碌，這是肯定的。但我認為，在大家都在努力提升產能的同時，我們也需要關注我們的客戶。所以我認為大家都會爭先恐後地增加產能。這首先要從我們的客戶開始，因為我們可以交付模具，但我們的客戶也需要做好接收的準備，因此，他們需要晶圓廠按時完成。

So I think that's what's going on. We will work extremely hard to get as much out as we can and as our customers are asking for it. But I think an important factor will be when will our customers have their fabs ready to really receive those tools.

所以我覺得情況就是這樣。我們會竭盡全力，盡可能滿足客戶的需求。但我認為一個重要的因素是，客戶的晶圓廠何時才能真正準備好接收這些工具。

Okay. We have 4 minutes left. So let's go back to the room again.

好的，我們還剩4分鐘，那我們再回房間吧。

Hi. [Stan Hilsen] of Dutch Public Broadcaster NOS. About the reorganization, I was wondering if you could share some insight on how did you end up in the situation in the first place. Why did you create so many leadership roles in the past months or years? And can you give us a timeframe on when the reorganization will be executed?

您好，我是荷蘭公共廣播公司NOS的史丹‧希爾森先生。關於重組，我想請您分享一下您最初是如何走到今天這一步的。在過去幾個月或幾年裡，您為什麼設立了這麼多領導職位？您能否告知我們重組的預計完成時間？

Yeah. It's always a good question. And if you look at the growth of the company, I think at any point of time, you try to make the best decision for the company. And I think this has been down. But as any large company, you tend to have side job over time with the belief that they really help. And I think to some extent, they do at the beginning because you strengthen certain axis, right? You strengthen, I don't know, quality. You strengthen maybe the execution of part of the company.

是的，這始終是個好問題。如果你回顧公司的發展歷程，我認為在任何時候，你都會努力做出對公司最有利的決策。而我認為，目前的情況確實有所下滑。但任何一家大型公司都會隨著時間的推移而設立一些輔助部門，並認為這些部門確實能起到幫助作用。我認為在某種程度上，這些部門在初期確實有用，因為它們可以強化某些方面，對吧？比如說，提升質量，或增強公司某些部門的執行力。

But there is a point of time where you add -- if you had too many of different axes, then people get confused. And we started to get that signal, I would say, already for two, three years. We spent quite some time because the next question could be, how do you know now that the next things would be better than the previous one, which is another very good question. We didn't want to rush in that, and we spend more than 12 months designing not in the board of management but designing with the people that are working day after day in technology, but also in the sector because of the connection I talked about.

但凡事都有個度──如果維度太多，人們就會感到困惑。我想說，我們早在兩三年前就開始感受到這種趨勢了。我們花了相當長的時間，因為接下來可能會有人問：你怎麼知道下一步會比之前更好？這又是一個非常好的問題。我們不想操之過急，所以我們花了超過12個月的時間進行設計，不是在管理層內部，而是與那些每天在技術領域以及行業內工作的人一起設計，因為我之前提到過這種聯繫。

So we spent more than 12 months working with those people to try to drive an organization that they believe will fit better what they need. And I think we need to make sure over time that we keep on scanning the organization so that if we made maybe some non-optimized move in the past, we can correct it. So I think it's very normal in the company. What is not right is not to correct things if you feel they're not helping you anymore.

所以我們花了超過12個月的時間與這些人合作，努力打造一個他們認為更符合自身需求的組織架構。我認為我們需要持續不斷地審視組織架構，以便及時修正過去可能的不足之處。我認為這在公司裡是很正常的。真正不妥的是，如果感覺某些做法不再對你有幫助，就應該及時糾正。

I think if you look in any rapidly growing organization, where do organizations grow? They grow because the number of competencies grow or products become far more complex. As a result of that, also the competencies that are necessary to get it done become more complex.

我認為，如果你觀察任何快速發展的組織，你會發現它們是如何發展的？它們之所以發展壯大，是因為其具備的能力數量增加，或者產品變得更加複雜。因此，完成這些工作所需的能力也變得更加複雜。

15 years ago, software, for instance, was not as important as it is today, just to call out one. So you see an expansion of capability and you need to see an expansion of a roadmap, many, many more products on the roadmap than we ever had before. The answer to something like that, that any rapidly growing organization does is a matrix organization where the competencies and the products meet each other. So that's your answer. And that gives you scalability for a while.

例如，15年前，軟體的重要性遠不及今天。因此，我們會看到能力的擴展，也需要擴展產品路線圖，路線圖上的產品數量將遠遠超過以往。任何快速發展的組織都會採用矩陣式組織結構來因應這種情況，讓各項能力和產品相互連結。這就是答案。這種結構能在一段時間內提供可擴展性。

But there is a point in time where a matrix organization, any matrix organization becomes so complex that you got to act. And I think that's the journey that we've been on. That's the thing that we've now concluded and hence the action that Christophe calls out. And I think the worst thing you can do is not recognize the issue and just continue to go on as you did before.

但任何矩陣式組織，都會發展到某種程度，變得過於複雜，以至於必須採取行動。我認為我們一直在經歷這個過程，也正是我們最終得出的結論，因此才有了克里斯托夫所呼籲的行動。我認為最糟糕的做法就是無視問題，繼續沿用以往的做法。

In terms of timing, because that was your other question, I mean, that completely depends on the negotiations that are currently going on with the unions, with the workers' council, et cetera, but this will definitely be a number of months. From our vantage point, as soon as possible because we want to be able to provide clarity to everyone in the organization and get rid of the uncertainty at the personal level. So that's why we would like to push as soon as we can in the interest of the people that are affected.

至於時間安排，因為這是你的另一個問題，我的意思是，這完全取決於目前與工會、工人委員會等進行的談判，但這肯定會持續幾個月。從我們的角度來看，我們希望盡快完成，因為我們希望能夠讓組織中的每個人都清楚情況，並消除個人層面的不確定性。所以，為了受影響者的利益，我們希望能盡快推進。

Okay. Our time is up. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you, everyone, online for watching. You can still send us your question. The media team is available for you. And for those in the room, nice you're here. There's coffee, and we'll have some chats with some of you. And we look forward to seeing you next year. Thank you very much.

好了，時間到了。非常感謝各位的到來。感謝所有在線觀看的觀眾。你們仍然可以給我們提問。媒體團隊隨時為您服務。現場的各位，很高興你們能來。我們準備了咖啡，之後會和一些朋友聊天。期待明年再見。非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。