艾司摩爾 (ASML) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Thank you for standing by. Welcome to the ASML 2025 second-quarter financial results conference call on July 16, 2025. (Operator Instructions) Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.

感謝您的支持。歡迎參加2025年7月16日ASML 2025年第二季財務業績電話會議。（操作員指示）請注意，今天的會議正在錄音。

I would now like to have the conference call over to Mr. Jim Kavanagh. Please go ahead.

現在我想將電話會議轉給吉姆·卡瓦納先生。請繼續。

Thank you, operator. Welcome, everyone. This is Jim Kavanagh, Vice President of Investor Relations at ASML. Joining me today on the call are ASML's CEO, Christophe Fouquet; and our CFO, Roger Dassen.

謝謝您，接線生。歡迎大家。我是 ASML 投資者關係副總裁 Jim Kavanagh。今天參加電話會議的還有 ASML 的執行長 Christophe Fouquet 和我們的財務長 Roger Dassen。

The subject of today's call is ASML's 2025 second-quarter results. The length of this call will be 60 minutes, and questions will be taken in the order that they are received. This call is also being broadcast live over the Internet at www.asml.com. A transcript of management's opening remarks and a replay of the call will be available on our website shortly following the conclusion of this call.

今天電話會議的主題是ASML 2025年第二季業績。此次通話時間為 60 分鐘，問題將依照收到的順序進行解答。本次電話會議也將透過網路 www.asml.com 進行現場直播。管理層的開場白及會議重播將在電話會議結束後不久在我們的網站發布。

Before we begin, I would like to caution listeners that comments made by management during this conference call will include forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Federal Securities Laws. These forward-looking statements involve material risks and uncertainties.

在我們開始之前，我想提醒聽眾，管理階層在本次電話會議中發表的評論將包括聯邦證券法所定義的前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述涉及重大風險和不確定性。

For a discussion of risk factors, I encourage you to review the Safe Harbor statements contained in today's press release and presentation found on our website at www.asml.com, and in ASML's annual report on Form 20-F and other documents as filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

對於風險因素的討論，我建議您查看今天的新聞稿和我們網站 www.asml.com 上的簡報中包含的安全港聲明，以及 ASML 提交給美國證券交易委員會的 20-F 表年度報告和其他文件中包含的安全港聲明。

With that, I would like to turn the call over to Christophe Fouquet for a brief introduction.

接下來，我想將電話轉給 Christophe Fouquet 進行簡短介紹。

Thank you, Jim. Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our second-quarter 2025 results conference call. Before we begin the Q&A session, Roger and I would like to provide an overview and some commentary on the second quarter results as well as provide some additional comments on the current business environment and on our future business outlook. Roger?

謝謝你，吉姆。歡迎大家，感謝您參加我們的 2025 年第二季業績電話會議。在我們開始問答環節之前，羅傑和我想對第二季的業績進行概述和評論，並對當前的商業環境和我們未來的業務前景提供一些額外的評論。羅傑？

Thank you, Christophe, and welcome, everyone. Let me start with our second quarter accomplishments. In the second quarter of 2025, total net sales were EUR7.7 billion, which is at the upper end of our guidance, primarily due to revenue recognition of one High NA system and additional upgrade business. Net system sales were at EUR5.6 billion, which includes EUR2.7 billion from EUV sales and EUR2.9 billion from non-EUV sales. Net system sales was driven by Logic at 69% and the remaining 31% coming from Memory.

謝謝你，克里斯托夫，歡迎大家。讓我先介紹一下我們第二季的成就。2025 年第二季度，總淨銷售額為 77 億歐元，處於我們預期的上限，主要歸功於一項高 NA 系統的收入確認和額外的升級業務。淨系統銷售額為 56 億歐元，其中包括 EUV 銷售額 27 億歐元和非 EUV 銷售額 29 億歐元。淨系統銷售額由邏輯驅動，佔 69%，其餘 31% 來自記憶體。

Installed Base Management sales for the quarter came in above the guidance at EUR2.1 billion. Gross margin for the quarter was above guidance at 53.7%, driven by an increase in upgrade business, one-off items resulting in lower cost and lower-than-expected impact from tariffs, which was partially offset by the dilutive effect from the High NA system revenue recognition.

本季安裝基礎管理銷售額高於預期，達 21 億歐元。本季毛利率高於預期，達到 53.7%，這得益於升級業務的成長、一次性項目導致成本降低以及關稅影響低於預期，但高 NA 系統收入確認的稀釋效應部分抵消了這一影響。

Operating expenses came in as guided with R&D expenses at EUR1.2 billion and SG&A expenses at EUR299 million. The effective tax rate for Q2 was 18.1%. For the full year 2025, we still expect an annualized effective tax rate of around 17%. Net income in Q2 was EUR2.3 billion, representing 29.8% of total net sales and resulting in an earnings per share of EUR5.90.

營運費用符合預期，其中研發費用為 12 億歐元，銷售、一般及行政費用為 2.99 億歐元。第二季有效稅率為18.1%。對於 2025 年全年，我們仍預期年化有效稅率將在 17% 左右。第二季淨收入為 23 億歐元，佔總淨銷售額的 29.8%，每股收益為 5.90 歐元。

Turning to the balance sheet. We ended the second quarter with cash, cash equivalents and short-term investments at a level of EUR7.2 billion. Moving to the order book. Q2 net system bookings came in at EUR5.5 billion, which is made up of EUR2.3 billion of EUV and EUR3.2 billion of non-EUV. Net system bookings in the quarter were weighted towards Logic at 84% of the bookings, while Memory accounted for the remaining 16%.

轉向資產負債表。截至第二季末，我們的現金、現金等價物和短期投資總額為 72 億歐元。移至訂單簿。第二季淨系統預訂金額為 55 億歐元，其中 EUV 預訂額為 23 億歐元，非 EUV 預訂額為 32 億歐元。本季淨系統預訂量主要集中在邏輯系統，佔預訂量的 84%，而記憶體則佔剩餘的 16%。

Regarding our backlog, we ended Q2 at around EUR33 billion. In addition to the regular changes from system sales and bookings, this reflects an adjustment of EUR1.4 billion in Q2 related to customers' response to 2024. In Q2, ASML paid a final dividend of EUR1.84 per ordinary share. Together with the interim dividend paid in 2024 and 2025, this resulted in a total dividend for 2024 of EUR6.40 per ordinary share.

關於我們的積壓訂單，第二季末我們的積壓訂單約為 330 億歐元。除了系統銷售和預訂的常規變化外，這還反映了第二季與客戶對 2024 年的反應相關的 14 億歐元的調整。第二季度，ASML 支付了每股普通股 1.84 歐元的末期股息。加上 2024 年和 2025 年支付的中期股息，2024 年每股普通股的總股息為 6.40 歐元。

The first quarterly interim dividend over 2025 will be EUR1.60 per ordinary share and will be made payable on August 6, 2025. In Q2 2025, we purchased shares for a total amount of around EUR1.4 billion, bringing the total share buyback of our 2022-2025 program to EUR5.8 billion at the end of Q2 2025.

2025 年第一季中期股利為每股普通股 1.60 歐元，將於 2025 年 8 月 6 日支付。2025 年第二季度，我們回購了總計約 14 億歐元的股票，使我們 2022-2025 年計劃的股票回購總額在 2025 年第二季末達到 58 億歐元。

With that, I would like to turn the call back over to Christophe.

說完這些，我想把電話轉回給克里斯托夫。

Thank you, Roger. As Roger has highlighted, we finished the second quarter with good financial results. Turning to the market. As we have said in recent quarters, artificial intelligence is the key driver of growth in Memory and Logic at this point. For Logic, we expect system revenue to increase in 2025 compared to 2024 as customers add capacity on leading-edge nodes.

謝謝你，羅傑。正如羅傑所強調的，我們第二季的財務表現良好。轉向市場。正如我們最近幾季所說，人工智慧是目前記憶體和邏輯成長的關鍵驅動力。對於 Logic，我們預計隨著客戶在前沿節點上增加容量，2025 年的系統收入將比 2024 年增加。

In Memory, we expect system revenue to remain strong in 2025 as our customers transition to their next nodes in support of the latest generation HBM and DDR5 products. With respect to our China business, revenue is expected to account for over 25% of total revenue this year, as it moderates to more closely represent its proportion of the backlog.

在記憶體方面，隨著我們的客戶轉向支援最新一代 HBM 和 DDR5 產品的下一個節點，我們預計系統收入在 2025 年將保持強勁。就我們的中國業務而言，預計今年其收入將佔總收入的 25% 以上，因為其收入將逐漸減少，以更接近代表其積壓訂單的比例。

Turning to our EUV business. Customers continue to add capacity on the leading edge to support AI demand, in which EUV plays an increased role. For example, our DRAM customers have recently mentioned an increase in the number of EUV layers on their latest and future nodes. In 2025, we expect our advanced customers to add about 30% more EUV capacity compared to 2024. The higher productivity of the NXE:3800E means that we can address that capacity increase with about the same number of systems as in 2024, but with higher ASP and improved gross margin.

轉向我們的 EUV 業務。客戶持續增加前沿產能以支援人工智慧需求，其中 EUV 發揮越來越重要的作用。例如，我們的 DRAM 客戶最近提到他們最新和未來節點上的 EUV 層數量有所增加。到 2025 年，我們預計我們的先進客戶的 EUV 產能將比 2024 年增加約 30%。NXE:3800E 更高的生產力意味著我們可以用與 2024 年大致相同數量的系統來解決產能成長問題，但平均售價更高，毛利率也更高。

This low NA EUV capacity increase together with the planned revenue from High NA system is expected to lead to overall EUV revenue growth of around 30% in 2025 versus 2024. The combined revenue of Deep UV and our metrology and inspection systems in 2025 is expected to be similar to 2024. With respect to installed base management, the upgrade business has been strong in the first half of the year as we completed most of the productivity upgrades on the NXE:3800E systems in the field to bring them to full specification.

低 NA EUV 產能的增加，加上高 NA 系統的計劃收入，預計將使 2025 年 EUV 整體收入較 2024 年增長約 30%。預計 2025 年 Deep UV 和我們的計量與檢測系統的綜合收入將與 2024 年相似。就已安裝基礎管理而言，升級業務在上半年表現強勁，因為我們完成了現場 NXE:3800E 系統的大部分生產力升級，使其達到完整規格。

We expect continued strength in installed base management for the second half of the year, driven by increasing service revenue as our installed base grows with a growing contribution from EUV services. With this, we expect installed base management revenue to grow more than 20% over last year.

我們預計，隨著 EUV 服務貢獻的不斷增加，我們的安裝基數不斷增長，服務收入也將隨之增加，這推動了下半年安裝基數管理繼續保持強勁勢頭。因此，我們預計安裝基礎管理收入將比去年成長 20% 以上。

We now guide the full 2025 revenue to increase by around 15% with gross margin of around 52%. We expect demand to be more skewed towards the second half of the year. As we look ahead to 2026, we continue to see strong demand related to AI for both Logic and Memory, and we see the positive impact of a growing number of EUV layers.

我們現在預計 2025 年全年營收將成長 15% 左右，毛利率將達到 52% 左右。我們預計下半年的需求將更加偏頗。展望 2026 年，我們將繼續看到與 AI 相關的邏輯和記憶體的強勁需求，並且我們看到 EUV 層數量不斷增加的正面影響。

On the other hand, as we said before, customers are facing increasing uncertainties based on macroeconomic and geopolitical developments. Further, some customers are navigating specific challenges that might affect the timing of their capital expenditure. Against this backdrop, while we are still paying for growth in 2026, we cannot confirm it at this stage. We will continue monitoring developments over the coming months.

另一方面，正如我們之前所說，客戶正面臨著基於宏觀經濟和地緣政治發展的越來越大的不確定性。此外，一些客戶正在應對可能影響其資本支出時機的特定挑戰。在此背景下，雖然我們仍在為2026年的成長付出代價，但現階段我們還無法確認。我們將在未來幾個月繼續關注事態發展。

With that, I ask Roger to provide an update about how we are currently looking at tariffs and their potential effects. Roger?

因此，我請羅傑提供有關我們目前如何看待關稅及其潛在影響的最新情況。羅傑？

Thank you, Christophe. As Christophe highlighted, we are currently facing an increasing level of uncertainty surrounding macroeconomic and geopolitical developments, which may have both direct and indirect implications for our business.

謝謝你，克里斯托夫。正如克里斯托夫所強調的，我們目前面臨的宏觀經濟和地緣政治發展的不確定性日益增加，這可能對我們的業務產生直接和間接的影響。

With regard to tariffs, the direct impact results from tariffs related to system sales to our customers in the United States, the import of materials for our US manufacturing facilities, the import of parts and tools for our US field operations and the export of parts from the US into other countries to the extent tariffs were to apply to those parts.

關於關稅，直接影響來自於與向我們在美國的客戶銷售系統、為我們在美國的製造工廠進口材料、為我們在美國的現場運營進口零件和工具以及從美國向其他國家出口零件（如果這些零件適用關稅）有關的關稅。

We continue working with our customers and suppliers to try to achieve that any direct impact of tariffs on our results will be limited. The indirect impact is more complex and very difficult to determine as it is related to the potential impact of tariffs on GDP and the resulting overall market demand.

我們將繼續與客戶和供應商合作，努力將關稅對我們業績的直接影響降至最低。間接影響更為複雜，很難確定，因為它與關稅對GDP的潛在影響以及由此產生的整體市場需求有關。

With that, I would like to turn to our expectations for the third quarter of 2025. We expect Q3 total net sales to be between EUR7.4 billion and EUR7.9 billion. We expect our Q3 installed base management sales to be around EUR2 billion. Gross margin for Q3 is expected to be between 50% and 52%. The expected R&D expenses for Q3 are around EUR1.2 billion and SG&A is expected to be around EUR310 million.

接下來，我想談談我們對 2025 年第三季的預期。我們預計第三季總淨銷售額將在 74 億歐元至 79 億歐元之間。我們預計第三季安裝基礎管理銷售額約為 20 億歐元。預計第三季的毛利率在50%至52%之間。第三季預計研發費用約12億歐元，銷售、一般及行政費用預計約3.1億歐元。

The gross margin in the second half of the year is expected to be lower than the first half, primarily due to margin dilutive effect of the revenue recognition of a greater number of High NA systems in the second half of the year. Lower upgrade revenue and a number of one-offs that contributed positively to the gross margin in the first half that we do not expect in the second half of this year.

預計下半年毛利率將低於上半年，主要由於下半年更多高NA系統的收入確認對利潤率產生稀釋作用。較低的升級收入和一些一次性支出對上半年的毛利率產生了積極貢獻，但我們預計今年下半年不會發生這種情況。

For full year, we continue to expect a gross margin of around 52%, of course, with the caveat of the uncertainties around tariffs as we just discussed.

對於全年而言，我們繼續預計毛利率將在 52% 左右，當然，正如我們剛才討論的那樣，關稅存在不確定性。

With that, I would like to again turn it back over to Christophe.

說到這裡，我想再次把發言權交還給克里斯托夫。

Thank you, Roger. Turning to technology. We continue to make good progress on both our Low NA and High NA EUV products, and we are building a comprehensive EUV portfolio that gives customers the flexibility to meet their advanced technology road map goals and optimize their cost of technology.

謝謝你，羅傑。轉向技術。我們在低 NA 和高 NA EUV 產品方面繼續取得良好進展，並且我們正在建立全面的 EUV 產品組合，使客戶能夠靈活地滿足其先進技術路線圖目標並優化其技術成本。

On the NXE:3800E, we made strong progress this quarter, completing a large number of field upgrades to the final 220 wafers per hour configuration. We are on track to finish holding out these upgrades across the installed base through 2025. New NXE:3800E systems are now all shipping at full specification.

在 NXE:3800E 上，我們本季取得了長足的進步，完成了大量現場升級，最終達到每小時 220 片晶圓的配置。我們預計在 2025 年之前完成已安裝基礎的升級。全新 NXE:3800E 系統現已全部以完整規格出貨。

As mentioned earlier, the NXE:3800E is helping customers expand their use of EUV. On the latest DRAM nodes, they can now replace more complex multi-patterning Deep UV steps with single EUV exposures, which brings benefits like lower cost, faster cycle time and better yield.

如前所述，NXE:3800E 正在幫助客戶擴大 EUV 的使用範圍。在最新的 DRAM 節點上，他們現在可以用單次 EUV 曝光取代更複雜的多重圖案化深紫外線步驟，從而帶來更低的成本、更快的週期時間和更好的產量等好處。

On High NA, we continue to work with our customer teams to mature the technology using our EXE:5000. This quarter, we also shipped and commenced the install of the first EXE:5200B system, which is intended to support the High NA technology insertion into high-volume manufacturing. As a reminder, the system is capable of achieving at least 175 wafers per hour, which is approximately a 60% productivity improvement compared to the EXE:5000.

在 High NA 方面，我們繼續與客戶團隊合作，使用我們的 EXE:5000 來完善技術。本季度，我們也出貨並開始安裝第一台 EXE:5200B 系統，旨在支援將高 NA 技術引入大量生產。需要提醒的是，該系統每小時至少能夠生產 175 片晶圓，與 EXE:5000 相比，生產率提高了約 60%。

As we shared during our 2024 Capital Market Day, the High NA platform will enable customer road map and lower their cost of technology by moving from multi-patterning Low-NA EUV to single-exposed High-NA EUV. For Deep UV, the transition of customers to the Advanced nodes also requires more advanced system. This is due to the increasing critical litho requirements driving the adoption of both the NXT:2100 and the NXT:2150 systems as well as the latest generation carrier system, the NXT:870.

正如我們在 2024 年資本市場日所分享的那樣，高 NA 平台將透過從多圖案低 NA EUV 轉向單曝光高 NA EUV 來實現客戶路線圖並降低他們的技術成本。對於Deep UV來說，客戶向Advanced節點的過渡也需要更先進的系統。這是由於日益增長的關鍵光刻要求推動了 NXT:2100 和 NXT:2150 系統以及最新一代載體系統 NXT:870 的採用。

So overall, continued good momentum as our customers work closely with us to further adopt our EUV and Deep UV technology. As mentioned earlier, there is increasing uncertainty in the short term, driven by geopolitical developments impacting macroeconomic condition. However, looking long term, we expect the semiconductor market to remain strong with artificial intelligence continuing to drive growth.

總體而言，隨著我們的客戶與我們密切合作以進一步採用我們的 EUV 和 Deep UV 技術，我們繼續保持良好的發展勢頭。如前所述，短期內地緣政治發展影響宏觀經濟狀況，不確定性增加。然而，從長遠來看，我們預計半導體市場將保持強勁，人工智慧將繼續推動成長。

As discussed in our Capital Market Day, we expect that the end market dynamics will lead to a product mix shift more towards Advanced Logic and DRAM and require a more intensive use of advanced lithography system. The combination of the strong productivity road map on Low NA EUV and the introduction of High NA will support the cost of technology reduction and the conversion of more multi-patterning layers to single EUV exposure increasing the number of EUV layers.

正如我們在資本市場日所討論的那樣，我們預計終端市場動態將導致產品組合更多地轉向先進邏輯和 DRAM，並需要更密集地使用先進的光刻系統。低 NA EUV 的強大生產力路線圖與高 NA 的引入相結合，將支援降低技術成本，並將更多多圖案層轉換為單一 EUV 曝光，從而增加 EUV 層的數量。

In line with our 2024 Capital Market Day, we expect a 2030 revenue opportunity between EUR44 billion and EUR60 billion with gross margin expected between 56% and 60%.

根據我們 2024 年資本市場日的預測，我們預計 2030 年的收入機會將在 440 億歐元至 600 億歐元之間，毛利率預計在 56% 至 60% 之間。

With that, we will be happy to take your questions.

我們將很樂意回答您的問題。

Thank you, Roger, and thank you, Christophe. The operator will instruct you momentarily on the protocol for the Q&A session. (Event Instructions)

謝謝你，羅傑，謝謝你，克里斯托夫。操作員將立即指導您在問答環節的協議。（活動須知）

Now operator, can we have your final instructions and then the first question, please.

接線員，請問您最後的指示和第一個問題。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Francois Bouvignies, UBS.

瑞銀集團的 Francois Bouvignies。

Thank you. Great, thank you. So my first question would be for the mix of this year. It seems that China is a bit a stronger than expected and even though you said that EUV capacity is up 30% and your revenues is up 30%. It seems consensus was at 49% and flat units still like much lower units than maybe we expected in the beginning of the year when we said below 50%. So we thought it would be closer to 50% rather than 40%.

謝謝。太好了，謝謝。所以我的第一個問題是關於今年的組合。儘管您說 EUV 產能成長了 30%，營收也成長了 30%，但中國似乎比預期要強勁一些。看來共識是 49%，而持平單位仍然比我們年初預期的 50% 以下的單位要低得多。所以我們認為它會更接近 50% 而不是 40%。

So I was just wondering if you had any change in EUV underlying, although still strong, but is there any change? Why is it coming a bit lower than maybe people expected? That's my first question.

所以我只是想知道 EUV 基礎是否有任何變化，雖然仍然強勁，但有任何變化嗎？為什麼它的價格比人們預期的要低一些呢？這是我的第一個問題。

Thank you, Francois. So let's start indeed with EUV and then I'll go to Deep UV. But in the EUV mix, I think what you see indeed is that we expect growth on EUV this year to be about 30%. At the beginning of the year, that percentage was a little bit higher. And there was a bit of confusion maybe on our side, so I apologize for that, but the big delta is actually with installed base business. And what you have there is, as you probably know, we shipped quite some tools last year, but also this year to customers at a lower configuration.

謝謝你，弗朗索瓦。那麼讓我們先從 EUV 開始，然後再講 Deep UV。但在 EUV 組合中，我認為您確實看到的是，我們預計今年 EUV 的成長率將達到 30% 左右。今年年初，這一比例略高一些。我們這邊可能有點混亂，對此我深表歉意，但實際上最大的差異在於已安裝的基礎業務。正如您可能知道的，我們去年發布了不少工具，但今年也向客戶發布了配置較低的工具。

So they did not have the full 220 wafers per hour configuration. And the revenue that is associated with bringing those tools to the 220 wafers per hour level is not in system sales, but is in the upgrade business and therefore, is in the installed base business. So the delta that you would see, so this 10% delta, if you like, so 30% growth rather than 40% growth, the delta of that number sits in the installed base business.

因此他們沒有每小時 220 個晶圓的完整配置。將這些工具提升到每小時 220 個晶圓的水平所帶來的收入並非來自系統銷售，而是來自升級業務，因此也來自已安裝基礎業務。因此，您會看到增量，即這個 10% 的增量，如果您願意的話，那麼是 30% 的增長而不是 40% 的增長，這個數字的增量在於已安裝的基礎業務。

So the installed base business is actually growing faster than we anticipated and you might have in your models at the beginning of the year. So it's a wash. It's a wash between the EUV business and the upgrade business associated with bringing the 3,800 up to the 220 level. So that's really what it is.

因此，安裝基礎業務實際上的成長速度比我們預期的要快，您可能在年初的模型中就已經預料到了這一點。所以這只是一次洗滌。這是 EUV 業務和將 3,800 提升至 220 水平的升級業務之間的對比。事實確實如此。

In terms of unit numbers for EUV. This is just by virtue of the configuration that customers have chosen. As you would have seen this year is particularly rich in terms of the ratio between 3800 and 3600. You also would have seen that in the very high ASP for EUV that you see this year. And that is because the lion's share of the tools this year and actually all of the tools in the second half of this year, all the Low NA tools are 3800.

就 EUV 的單位數量而言。這只是憑藉客戶選擇的配置。如您所見，今年 3800 和 3600 之間的比例尤其豐富。您還會看到，今年 EUV 的平均售價非常高。這是因為今年的大部分工具以及實際上今年下半年的所有工具，所有低 NA 工具都是 3800。

So as a result of that, the capacity needs that our customers have can be fulfilled with a lower number of tools. Revenue-wise, it doesn't matter because of the higher ASP of the 3800 and gross margin-wise, it's actually a positive, I would argue. But they can get the same capacity that they were looking for at a lower number of units.

因此，我們可以使用較少數量的工具來滿足客戶的容量需求。從收入角度來看，這並不重要，因為 3800 的平均售價較高，而從毛利率角度來看，我認為這實際上是一個積極的方面。但他們可以用較少的單位數量獲得所需的相同容量。

So finally on Deep UV. So Deep UV in our current model ends where we expect the Deep UV to be at the beginning of this year. But you are right, there is a bit of a shift there where actually China is a bit higher than we expected. You might recall that last year, we said we expected to be a little over 20%. Right now, we're looking at over 25%. So there is a bit of a shift in the Deep UV business from the non-China business to the China business. That's the only moving part I would say that is in Deep UV.

最後談談深層紫外線。因此，我們目前模型中的深紫外線結束於我們預計今年年初深紫外線出現的位置。但您說得對，確實存在一些變化，實際上中國的比例比我們預期的要高一些。您可能還記得，去年我們曾表示，我們預計這一數字將略高於 20%。目前，我們看到的比例超過 25%。因此，深紫外線業務從非中國業務向中國業務發生了一些轉變。我想說，這是 Deep UV 中唯一可移動的部分。

Makes sense. Thank you very much, Roger.

有道理。非常感謝，羅傑。

And the second question is, I believe you said in the past that you price your tools in terms of value to the customers. So the litho spend increase as the value to the customer is increasing. So for example, this year, the throughput is increasing. So ISP is increasing for the 3800. And I guess it's the same dynamic if you think about the overlay or metal pitch improvement. If you manage to improve that, you can price higher, I would imagine.

第二個問題是，我相信您過去曾說過，您的工具的定價是基於對客戶的價值。因此，隨著顧客價值的增加，光刻支出也會增加。例如，今年的吞吐量正在增加。因此 3800 的 ISP 正在增加。我想，如果您考慮覆蓋層或金屬間距的改進，您會發現其動態是相同的。我想，如果你能設法改善這一點，你的價格就能更高。

Now there is an argument that if a customer does not adopt High NA, it's neutral for you because you have multi-patterning Low NA. But I was thinking that the value to your customer would be much higher with High NA versus multi-patterning Low NA. I mean, especially on the metal pitch side, they can be much more aggressive with High NA, I would imagine, and obviously saving a lot of non-litho spend. So the value to the customer is much higher. Therefore, you can price higher.

現在有一種觀點認為，如果客戶不採用高 NA，那麼這對您來說就是中性的，因為您擁有多重圖案低 NA。但我認為，對於您的客戶來說，高 NA 比多重圖案低 NA 的價值要高得多。我的意思是，特別是在金屬間距方面，我可以想像他們可以更積極地採用高NA，並且顯然可以節省大量非光刻支出。因此對客戶的價值要高得多。因此，你可以定價更高。

So is it truly neutral for ASML, the multi-patterning Low NA versus single High NA? Just I've been talking a lot to investors on that, and I wanted to ask you.

那麼，對於 ASML 來說，多重圖案化低 NA 與單一高 NA 相比真的是中性的嗎？我一直在和投資者談論這個問題，我想問你一下。

Well, Francois, this is Christophe. So you have a lot of questions in your question. But on the first part, I think you summarize what we are doing very well. So I'd just like to confirm what you said about the ability we have to increase the value, therefore, the price of our product, if we get more productivity, if we get more overlay and imaging performance. So that's still correct.

嗯，弗朗索瓦，這是克里斯托夫。所以你的問題裡有很多疑問。但關於第一部分，我認為你對我們所做的事情總結得很好。因此，我只是想確認您所說的，如果我們獲得更高的生產力，如果我們獲得更高的覆蓋和成像性能，我們就有能力提高產品的價值，從而提高產品的價格。所以這仍然是正確的。

That's also correct, of course, for High NA. And I think what you have to add with High NA when you simplified basically the process of the customer, reduce the lead time. I think what you see then is the ability also for our customer to keep going to the next node. And I think one of the reasons we have been driving those tool historically is because as customer goes to the next node, then practically they will shrink further and the litho intensity will increase.

當然，對高 NA 來說這也是正確的。我認為，當您簡化客戶流程時，您必須添加高 NA，以減少交貨時間。我認為您看到的是我們的客戶也能夠繼續前往下一個節點。我認為我們一直以來推動這些工具的原因之一是，隨著客戶進入下一個節點，它們實際上會進一步縮小，而光刻強度會增加。

And High NA fits exactly that, I would say, strategy like EUV did in the past or immersion did in the past. So the benefit of a tool like High NA is also being captured by an increase in litho intensity basically moving to the next node. And I think we have seen that happening strongly with EUV in the past. And as High NA mature, as the customer validates the value you have described, I think we will see the exact same dynamic.

我想說，高 NA 完全符合這一策略，就像過去的 EUV 或浸入式技術一樣。因此，像高 NA 這樣的工具的好處也被光刻強度的增加所體現，基本上轉移到了下一個節點。我認為我們過去已經看到 EUV 的強勁發展。隨著 High NA 的成熟，隨著客戶驗證您所描述的價值，我認為我們將看到完全相同的動態。

Makes sense. Thank you, Christophe.

有道理。謝謝你，克里斯托夫。

You're welcome.

不客氣。

Didier Scemama, Bank of America.

美國銀行的迪迪埃‧斯凱瑪瑪 (Didier Scemama)。

Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. Just have a couple of quick ones. Maybe it's a question for Roger from I think the press conference this morning. I was a bit surprised to hear or read that you would see the removal of the export ban on AI chips to China as a positive. Maybe, can you elaborate a little bit on that? I would have thought that the lethal revenues associated with the AI chips in China would not be that material, or are you suggesting or hoping that there would be some form of relaxation of restrictions on emergence for China as well? Thank you.

午安.感謝您回答我的問題。只需快速吃幾個即可。我想這也許是今天早上記者會上向羅傑提出的問題。當我聽到或讀到你會將取消對中國的人工智慧晶片出口禁令視為一件好事時，我感到有點驚訝。也許，您能詳細說明一下嗎？我原以為中國與人工智慧晶片相關的致命收入不會那麼大，或者您是否建議或希望中國也能以某種形式放寬新興限制？謝謝。

Well, I think it is a positive because I think it is a positive for the entire ecosystem. Now are we going to sell 20 more tools as a result of that? Probably not. But I think it is still a positive development that the wider ecosystem is being deployed, and that restrictions are being lifted, I think in and by itself is a positive.

嗯，我認為這是積極的，因為我認為這對整個生態系統都是正面的。現在我們是否會因此再銷售 20 套工具？可能不是。但我認為，更廣泛的生態系統正在部署，限制正在被取消，這仍然是一個積極的發展，我認為這本身就是正面的。

This is not the only lifting of restrictions that has happened in the past couple of weeks. As you also know, there was a lifting of restrictions when it comes to chip design software. In and by itself, I think that's happening, I think, strengthens the global reach of the ecosystem, which I think is a positive. So it's based on that, that I think this is a positive development for the entire ecosystem and hopefully also for us.

這並不是過去幾週內唯一一次解除限制的舉措。如您所知，晶片設計軟體方面的限制已經取消。就其本身而言，我認為這增強了生態系統的全球影響力，我認為這是正面的。因此，基於此，我認為這對整個生態系統來說是一個積極的發展，希望對我們也是如此。

Okay. Got it. The second question is on just going back to the DUV sort of outlook for the second half. I know you had said at the time of Q1 that China group revenues would be a bit better than 25% versus 20% prior. But it does feel like it's further strengthened. How much of that do you think is potentially related to pulling ahead of further restrictions on certain of your Foundry, Logic or Memory customers into next year?

好的。知道了。第二個問題是回顧下半年的 DUV 展望。我知道您在第一季曾說過，中國集團的營收將比之前的 20% 成長 25% 以上。但確實感覺它得到了進一步加強。您認為這在多大程度上可能與明年提前對某些代工、邏輯或記憶體客戶實施進一步限制有關？

I don't think that dynamic has materially changed, right? So the 25% that we have been talking about now for the second quarter in a row is what we expect for the year. I think that's still the -- over 25% is still what we expect for the year. I don't think that dynamic has necessarily changed in the past quarters. That's still there. And exactly what is driven by considerations by customers, it's very hard to tell.

我認為這種動態並沒有實質的改變，對嗎？因此，我們連續第二季談論的 25% 就是我們對今年的預期。我認為這仍然是——超過 25% 仍然是我們對今年的預期。我認為過去幾季這種動態並不一定會改變。它仍然在那裡。但究竟是什麼因素推動了客戶的考慮，很難說。

I think there is a customer need that customer need continues to be strong as we see it. I mean there have been discussions in the past is China falling off the cliff? Well, it is not. And it's also not what we see. We still see China demand strong and China demand more and more being brought in line with the percentage that it represents at our backlog, which is, again, at the level that we were just talking about, this slightly around 25%.

我認為，正如我們所見，客戶需求持續強勁。我的意思是過去曾有人討論過中國是否正在走向崩潰？嗯，事實並非如此。這也不是我們所看到的。我們仍然看到中國的需求強勁，而且中國的需求越來越符合其在我們的積壓訂單中所佔的百分比，也就是我們剛才談到的水平，大約為 25%。

Thank you. Can I have a quick follow-up, a tiny one, just on High NA. I'm surprised you don't talk so much about the booking you had in the quarter. So just wondering maybe Christophe, whether that strengthened your view that High NA could be inserted at the 1.4 nanometer node?

謝謝。我能否快速跟進一下，一個小問題，只關於高 NA。我很驚訝您沒有過多談論本季度的預訂情況。所以只是想知道 Christophe，這是否加強了您的觀點，即可以在 1.4 奈米節點插入高 NA？

Well, our view, I think, has been very consistent. And the question come back every time and I always give the same answer, which is the phase we are in today is a phase where the customers are just qualifying the tool, and they qualify the tool having in mind to insert it in high-volume manufacturing in 2026, '27. And the exact format they will use for the insertion is depending basically on the progress we are making with them in the next few months. But the progress has been good. I think we talked a lot about the initial data back at the end of last year, early this year.

嗯，我認為我們的觀點是非常一致的。這個問題每次都會出現，而我總是給出相同的答案，那就是我們今天所處的階段是客戶只是在對工具進行鑑定的階段，他們考慮在 2026 年或 2027 年將其投入大批量生產。他們將採用的具體插入格式基本上取決於我們在接下來的幾個月與他們取得的進展。但進展還是不錯的。我想我們在去年年底和今年年初討論了很多關於初始數據的問題。

The data are still good. The more customers use the tool, I would say, the more they like it. And this means also that the opportunity for insertion is, of course, growing over time because there's more and more data confirming that. But there, at the same time, we still need a few more months. As I mentioned in my introduction, there's still a lot of work happening with our customer with the 5000. The shipment of the 5200 is important milestone because that's the tool for high-volume manufacturing.

數據還是不錯的。我想說，客戶使用該工具的次數越多，他們就越喜歡它。這也意味著插入的機會當然會隨著時間的推移而增加，因為越來越多的數據證實了這一點。但同時，我們仍然需要幾個月的時間。正如我在介紹中提到的那樣，我們與 5000 客戶之間還有很多工作要做。5200 的出貨是一個重要的里程碑，因為這是實現大批量生產的工具。

So this also means that this tool will be available on time. But there also we need to qualify it. So I think the progress is good. We feel good about the way the customer look at the system and I think we'll continue to share with you the progress in the coming months. But we are happy with the progress, and I think so are our customers.

所以這也意味著該工具將會準時推出。但我們也需要對其進行限定。所以我認為進展是好的。我們對客戶對系統的看法感到滿意，我想我們將在接下來的幾個月中繼續與您分享進展。但我們對進展感到滿意，我想我們的客戶也是如此。

Didier, indeed confirming that the EUV order intake was a mix of Low NA and High NA but we also mentioned before that customers have asked us to not be specific about the High NA order intake. That's the reason why we might not make as much music around that as some people might like.

Didier，確實確認 EUV 訂單量是低 NA 和高 NA 的混合，但我們之前也提到過，客戶要求我們不要具體說明高 NA 訂單量。這就是為什麼我們可能不會像有些人喜歡的那樣創作那麼多音樂的原因。

Understood. Thank you so much.

明白了。太感謝了。

Joe Quatrochi, Wells Fargo.

富國銀行的喬‧夸特羅奇 (Joe Quatrochi)。

I wanted to ask one on 2026, your commentary. I guess I wanted to try to better understand what has changed over the last 90 days just in your customer conversations. It sounds like -- you kind of mentioned customers navigating specific challenges that might impact their CapEx. But can you just help us understand what's changed since 90 days ago?

我想問一個關於 2026 的問題，你的評論。我想嘗試更了解過去 90 天在與客戶的對話中發生了哪些變化。聽起來—您提到了客戶正在應對可能影響其資本支出的特定挑戰。但是您能幫助我們了解自 90 天前以來發生了什麼變化嗎？

I will start and I think Roger can add. But I think when we talked 90 days ago, I think this was a couple of weeks after -- post Liberation Day, but also the announcement that the tariff we have put on hold for 90 days.

我先開始，我想羅傑可以補充。但我認為，當我們在 90 天前進行談話時，我認為這是在解放日之後的幾週，同時也宣布我們將暫停徵收關稅 90 天。

And I think we said back then that we were not at the end of discussion, we are most probably at the beginning of it. And I think today, we are still not at the end of it, three months have passed. And I think those discussions are in all our customer minds and they are trying basically to understand what it means for them in the short term.

我想我們當時就說過，我們的討論還沒結束，很可能才剛開始。我認為今天我們還沒結束，三個月已經過去了。我認為所有客戶都在考慮這些討論，他們基本上都在試圖了解這對他們短期內意味著什麼。

So I think what has happened in the last 90 days is, I would say, the impact of the announcement is there. There's a lot of discussion. No one knows even today, what's the end state. Some people are getting more optimistic. Some people are getting more pessimistic.

所以我認為過去 90 天發生的事情就是該聲明的影響。有很多討論。直到今天也沒有人知道最終的狀態是怎樣的。有些人變得更加樂觀。有些人變得更加悲觀。

And I think when we talk about uncertainties, we mean both basically. So I think our visibility because of discussion has a bit reduced, and therefore, we are being more cautious.

我認為，當我們談論不確定性時，我們基本上指的是兩者。所以我認為由於討論，我們的知名度有所降低，因此我們更加謹慎。

I think Roger was mentioning the H20 chips, in the course of the last three months, they were both restricted and then allowed again yesterday. So a lot of this is still happening. And as you know, this type of uncertainty usually invites people who make investment to be more cautious. And I think what we report is the results of the discussion we are having basically with those people. Roger?

我認為羅傑提到的是 H20 晶片，在過去三個月中，它們都受到限制，然後昨天又被允許了。很多這樣的事情仍在發生。如你所知，這種不確定性通常會讓投資人更加謹慎。我認為我們所報告的基本上是我們與這些人討論的結果。羅傑？

Yes. I think, Christophe, that's the story, right? So there is the direct impact, if you're considering expanding in the United States, you still don't know today exactly what tariffs are going to apply to you because on the one hand, you have the tariffs, the generic tariffs. But on the other hand, there is also the 232 review that at this stage, we don't know what the outcome of that is going to be.

是的。我想，克里斯托夫，這就是故事，對吧？因此，如果你考慮在美國擴張，那麼就會產生直接影響，你今天仍然不知道具體哪些關稅將適用於你，因為一方面，你有關稅，通用關稅。但另一方面，還有 232 審查，現階段我們還不知道結果會是什麼。

So if you have investment plans in the United States, and obviously, this -- the uncertainty around the tariff discussion is a pretty significant component in your business case. And how much are you going to invest in the United States and in what time frame?

因此，如果您在美國有投資計劃，那麼顯然，關稅討論的不確定性是您商業案例中非常重要的組成部分。您打算在美國投資多少以及投資期間是多久？

But that's a direct implication. And then to Christophe's point, there is the indirect impact. We still don't know today, the noise levels are pretty high on tariffs. The potential implications that could have for GDP growth are pretty significant.

但這是一個直接的暗示。然後回到克里斯托夫的觀點，還有間接影響。我們今天仍然不知道，關於關稅的噪音水平相當高。這對 GDP 成長可能產生的潛在影響相當重大。

So therefore, our customers are cautious and are waiting with their investment decisions up until the point and they're maximizing the waiting time they have for their investment decisions. And that's what Christophe is signaling.

因此，我們的客戶非常謹慎，在做出投資決策之前會一直等待，並且會最大限度地延長等待投資決策的時間。這就是克里斯托夫所傳遞的訊號。

The clarity from the customers, the uncertainty that they have to navigate is quite substantial, and that leads to them holding the cards a little bit closer to the chest than they typically would do in this time frame. And that could be a positive. Christophe just gave you one example, but there is also risk involved there. As a result of that, we have become -- we have made the statement that we made.

客戶給予的明確訊息以及他們必須應對的不確定性相當大，這導致他們比通常情況下在這段時間內更謹慎地對待事情。這可能是件好事。克里斯托夫剛才給了你一個例子，但這裡面也存在風險。因此，我們已經成為——我們已經發表了我們所發表的聲明。

I appreciate it. And as a follow-up, on the gross margin side, I think if you kind of look at the implied December quarter guide, any sort of help on just like what's kind of driving the -- I think gross margin will take a bit of a step down sequentially. Is that just mix as you look to -- it looks like you're implying maybe three High NA tools being rev rec in that quarter. Is that the right way to think about it? Is there anything else we should be thinking about?

我很感激。接下來，就毛利率方面而言，我認為如果你看一下隱含的 12 月季度指南，你會發現它似乎提供了一些幫助，例如是什麼推動了毛利率的上升——我認為毛利率將環比下降。正如您所看到的，這只是混合嗎？看起來您暗示該季度可能有三種高 NA 工具正在進行轉速記錄。這是正確的思考方式嗎？還有什麼我們應該考慮的嗎？

Yes, Joe, that is an important one, right? So the High NA one is an important one. So that will have an impact because the second half, we will have more High NA tools rev rec than in the first half. So that's the driver.

是的，喬，這很重要，對吧？因此高NA非常重要。所以這將產生影響，因為下半年我們將擁有比上半年更多的高 NA 工具轉速記錄。這就是驅動因素。

The second driver is that we -- as I mentioned before, we had quite some upgrade business in the first half. I would expect that upgrade business to be a little lower in the second half. And so that's the driver. And then we also had some one-off cost benefits in the first half that we cannot count on in the second half. So it's a bit of a mix of those as a result of which we do believe that the second half is going to be slightly weaker.

第二個驅動因素是──正如我之前提到的，我們在上半年有相當多的升級業務。我預計下半年升級業務會稍微低一點。這就是驅動因素。而我們在上半年也獲得了一些一次性的成本效益，但下半年卻無法依賴這些效益。因此，這些因素有些混合，因此我們確實相信下半年經濟會略微疲軟。

Krish Sankar, TD Cowen.

Krish Sankar，TD Cowen。

I have two of them. Roger, first one on calendar '26. I understand that it's hard for you to confirm at this stage. But I'm just curious, when you look at the bookings you had in Q2, what kind of a bookings run rate should we assume you need to get in Q3 to get some conviction on calendar '26 as a growth year or not?

我有兩個。羅傑，這是 26 年曆上的第一個。我理解您現階段很難確認。但我很好奇，當您查看第二季度的預訂情況時，我們應該假設您需要在第三季度獲得什麼樣的預訂運行率才能確信 26 年是增長年嗎？

Yes, Krish, very nice try. I think some tried this before. We're not going there, right? So we've made a comment that we've made on bookings. We believe bookings are lumpy, because we believe bookings are not necessarily a good reflection of the business momentum. So I don't think it would be wise to entertain that.

是的，Krish，非常好的嘗試。我認為有些人以前嘗試過這個。我們不會去那裡，對吧？因此，我們對預訂做出了評論。我們認為預訂量不穩定，因為我們認為預訂量不一定能很好地反映業務動能。所以我認為考慮這個並不是明智之舉。

So we move away from giving guidance on '26 and I don't think it would be appropriate to indirectly give guidance on '26. So I'm going to pass on this one.

因此，我們不再對 26 給予指導，而且我認為間接對 26 給予指導是不合適的。所以我要放棄這個。

Got you. No worries. I have a two-part question again on bookings. So sorry to be annoying. On the Q2 bookings, can you tell us a little bit of how much of the EUR2.3 billion in EUV, how was it split between Logic and DRAM for EUV bookings?

明白了。不用擔心。關於預訂，我又有兩個問題。很抱歉打擾您。關於第二季的訂單，您能否告訴我們，在 23 億歐元的 EUV 訂單中，邏輯和 DRAM 的 EUV 訂單是如何分配的？

And on the EUR3 billion or so in Deep UV bookings, how much will ship this year versus next year on Deep UV?

在價值約 30 億歐元的 Deep UV 訂單中，今年和明年的 Deep UV 出貨量分別是多少？

On the first question on EUV, it's multiple customers and it's also -- it's both Logic and Memory, although I would say it is skewed towards Logic. So Logic is the better half of the number.

關於 EUV 的第一個問題，它有多個客戶，而且它既有邏輯也有內存，儘管我想說它偏向邏輯。因此，邏輯是數字中較好的那一半。

On Deep UV, it's a bit of a mixed bag. All I would say is, last time we told you that we were getting closer and closer to being fully booked for this year also on Deep UV. I think by now, we can say that we're virtually covered for the full year. And that means that some of the orders that came in on Deep UV help bridge the gap that we still needed to be fully covered or virtually fully covered for this year. And then the balance is there to -- for '26.

對於 Deep UV 來說，情況有點複雜。我只想說，上次我們告訴你們，今年 Deep UV 的預訂也越來越滿了。我想現在我們可以說我們實際上已經涵蓋了全年。這意味著 Deep UV 的部分訂單有助於彌補我們今年仍需要全覆蓋或幾乎全覆蓋的缺口。然後餘額就到了——26年。

C.J. Muse, Cantor Fitzgerald.

C.J. Muse，領唱費茲傑拉。

I wanted to revisit the first question, Roger, where you guys have kind of reduced your outlook for EUV revenues from 50% to 30%. That's roughly EUR1.7 billion. I don't think you're suggesting that your service business grew by that much. So curious what changed on the tool front? And was it simply further derisking of Logic to much more kind of de minimis type unit levels? Or is there something else going on there?

羅傑，我想重新討論第一個問題，你們將 EUV 收入的預期從 50% 降低到了 30%。這大約是17億歐元。我認為您並不是說您的服務業務成長了那麼多。那麼好奇工具方面發生了什麼變化呢？這是否只是進一步將邏輯風險降低到更多類型的最低限度單位等級？還是那裡還有其他事情發生？

I'm a bit confused, C.J., where you got the 50% from because I think what we've been talking about was 40% at the start of the year. That's the number that we've given. And if you add it all up, right, at the midpoint, at the current levels of installed base business and keeping the Deep UV/application business constant, then we were looking at 40% increase at the beginning of the year.

我有點困惑，C.J.，你這個 50% 是從哪裡得出的，因為我認為我們談論的是年初的 40%。這就是我們給的數字。如果你把所有這些加起來，那麼，在中間點，在當前安裝基礎業務的水平上，並保持深紫外線/應用業務不變，那麼我們在年初就看到了 40% 的增長。

So -- and this delta from 40% growth to 30% growth, that delta is explained by what I just gave you in terms of a shift from the system business to the upgrade business that's included in the installed base. So the 50% is a number that I honestly don't recognize, the 50% growth.

所以 — — 從 40% 的成長到 30% 的成長，這個增量可以透過我剛才給出的從系統業務到包含在安裝基數中的升級業務的轉變來解釋。所以 50% 這個數字，50% 的成長，我真的不認識。

Well, it's tied to roughly 50 tools.

嗯，它與大約 50 種工具相關。

Okay. Now we're to the 50 tools. So 50 tools. Well, an important explanation of the 50 tools versus the lower number of tools, the low 40-ish tools that we were just talking about. That is explained by the mix of tools in this year.

好的。現在讓我們來談談 50 種工具。所以有 50 種工具。好吧，對於 50 種工具與較少數量的工具（我們剛才討論的 40 種左右的工具）有一個重要的解釋。這是透過今年的工具組合來解釋的。

So this year is completely dominated by the 3800, only a handful of 3600 tools. And that's the reason why the tool number is lower simply because people get a much higher productivity on a per-tool-basis and that still gives them the 30% capacity increase that they were looking for, albeit with a lower number of tools. So it's the tool mix that has led to a lower number of unit numbers.

所以今年完全是3800的天下，3600的工具只有少數。這就是工具數量較低的原因，因為人們在每個工具上獲得了更高的生產率，儘管工具數量較少，但仍然可以獲得他們所期望的 30% 的產能成長。因此，工具組合導致了單位數量的減少。

Prefect. And then to follow up on your '26 outlook, where 90 days ago, you talked about growth and now greater uncertainty. I would think on the tariff front, there would be more certainty. And so curious why that has gotten worse, I guess, in your minds?

長官。然後繼續討論您對 26 年的展望，90 天前您談到了成長，現在又談到了更大的不確定性。我認為在關稅方面會更確定。所以我很好奇為什麼在你們看來情況會變得更糟？

And then from a bottoms-up perspective, has anything changed in terms of the build plans that you're seeing from your customers whether it's domestic China, immersion, High NA ramp or Low NA demand, that is causing you to kind of retract that outlook? Or is it simply just a top-down kind of macro view that's driving that?

然後從自下而上的角度來看，您從客戶那裡看到的建設計劃是否發生了任何變化，無論是中國國內、沉浸式、高 NA 坡道還是低 NA 需求，這導致您收回這種觀點？或者這僅僅是一種自上而下的宏觀視角在推動這一進程？

I would say on your first question, C.J., it's interesting that we have such a different perspective on what the world looked like three months ago versus today. I would say three months ago, I think versus today, I can tell you that our customers are more concerned about the tariffs discussion today than they were three months ago.

關於你的第一個問題，C.J.，我想說，有趣的是，我們對三個月前和現在的世界有著如此不同的看法。我想說的是，三個月前，與今天相比，我可以告訴你，我們的客戶今天比三個月前更專注於關稅討論。

Three months ago, there was the indication of a pause in the tariffs. Right now, I think we're -- it seems like the countries are in full battle mode again when it comes to tariffs. Every single day, there is a new percentage. The 232 review, which, of course, is very meaningful in our industry, there is no line of sight there.

三個月前，就有跡象顯示關稅將暫停。現在，我認為我們——似乎各國在關稅問題上再次陷入全面戰鬥。每天都會有一個新的百分比。232 審查當然對我們這個產業意義重大，但目前還沒有任何進展。

So when we have conversations with our customers, we do sense that they're uncertain as to what the tariff discussion where it might land and what the implications are for GDP growth. And as a result of that, what that means for the demand of their customers.

因此，當我們與客戶交談時，我們確實感覺到他們不確定關稅討論的結果以及對 GDP 成長的影響。因此，這對客戶的需求意味著什麼。

So we sense in all conversations with customers a higher level of uncertainty than three months ago. And that's the reason why, as I mentioned before, they keep the cards closer to the chest and wait with confirming their demand up to the point in time that they can do that. That's what we observe.

因此，我們在與客戶的所有對話中都感覺到不確定性比三個月前更高。這就是為什麼，正如我之前提到的，他們會保密，等待確認他們的需求，直到他們可以這樣做的時候。這就是我們觀察到的。

Christophe, anything on customer dynamics as you see it.

克里斯托夫，如您所見，有關客戶動態的任何資訊。

Yes. No, I think you summarized it well, again. And as I said before, we also appreciate that there is a different view and different level of optimism or pessimism. I think what we tried to do is to reflect basically the nature of the discussion we are having. And of course, to your question, is it top-down, bottoms-up, it's first top-down, but the interrogation on the business is, of course, also a more detailed discussion we're having.

是的。不，我認為你再次總結得很好。正如我之前所說，我們也理解存在著不同的觀點和不同程度的樂觀或悲觀。我認為我們試圖做的基本上是反映我們正在進行的討論的性質。當然，對於你的問題，它是自上而下，還是自下而上，首先是自上而下，但對業務的詢問當然也是我們正在進行的更詳細的討論。

So that's a bit where we are. Well, we will continue to have those discussions, by the way, because every day bring new news. Yesterday was a good news, as we discussed, and we'll see what's happened in the next few months. But that's really where our customers are today.

這就是我們現在的情況。順便說一句，我們會繼續進行這些討論，因為每天都會有新的消息。正如我們所討論的，昨天是一個好消息，我們將看看接下來幾個月會發生什麼。但這正是我們今天的客戶所處的位置。

Tammy Qiu, Berenberg.

塔米邱，貝倫貝格。

So the first one is regarding your comment on that 30% efficiency helped addressing customers' requirement of expanding capacity by 30%. So is it right to say going forward, you need customers to expand capacity aggressively for you to sell more tools to your customers versus previously that the demand for litho tool is actually a function of how much capacity the customer will be willing to add?

因此，第一個問題是關於您的評論，即 30% 的效率有助於滿足客戶擴大 30% 容量的要求。那麼，是否可以這樣說，展望未來，你需要客戶積極擴大產能，以便你向客戶銷售更多的工具，而以前對光刻工具的需求實際上取決於客戶願意增加多少產能？

Well, I think we usually define the EUV capacity need by the total need for wafer output. So I think this is the number we monitor. I think you have seen that in the Capital Market Day also where we look at the total wafer stock per month and how this evolve over time. So I think this defines our market. And we try always to serve that market by shipping the most effective tool, the most productive tool.

嗯，我認為我們通常根據晶圓產量的總需求來定義 EUV 產能需求。所以我認為這是我們監測的數字。我想您已經在資本市場日看到了這一點，我們查看了每月的晶圓總庫存以及其隨時間的變化。所以我認為這定義了我們的市場。我們始終致力於透過提供最有效、最高效的工具來服務該市場。

The reason for that is that a tool with higher productivity will allow us to deliver the highest value to our customer with a lower cost on our side and therefore a better gross margin. So I think we are more sensitive to the total capacity need of our customer than to how many tools we are going to need to fulfill it.

原因在於，生產力更高的工具可以讓我們以更低的成本為客戶提供最高的價值，從而獲得更好的毛利率。因此，我認為我們對客戶的總容量需求比我們需要多少工具來滿足這項需求更為敏感。

And I will say the less number of tools we need to fulfill it, usually the better our margin and profitability will be. And for our customers, also the value is better because they have more space basically to run more capacity. So if you -- to give you an idea, when we ship the first EUV system and the 3400B, we were at about half the productivity of the tool we are shipping today.

我想說的是，我們實現目標所需的工具越少，我們的利潤率和獲利能力通常就越好。對於我們的客戶來說，價值也更高，因為他們擁有更多的空間來運行更多容量。因此，如果您 - 給您一個想法，當我們運送第一個 EUV 系統和 3400B 時，我們的生產率大約是今天運送的工具的一半。

So of course, this has an effect on the total number of tools. So if we are still shipping the 3400B today, the number of units will be at least twice as much. But what we look at, what's really important, what you should look at is really the total capacity added by our customer on EUV year-on-year.

因此，這當然會對工具的總數產生影響。因此，如果我們今天仍在運送 3400B，那麼數量將至少是現在的兩倍。但我們關注的真正重要的事情是，您應該關注的是我們客戶在 EUV 上逐年增加的總產能。

Okay. And a follow-up would be on 2026. So you mentioned that you can't really confirm 2026 to be a growth year, but also at the same time, you are preparing for a growth year for 2026, I guess, from your capacity perspective. So is it right to say that it's just uncertainty for the time being, but based on your conversation with your customers, they are still leaning towards adding, just that they're not sure about what is the discussion of tariffs. So we're probably still leaning towards positive side in sort of a cloudy picture that we may actually see the whole industry pulling back from investment?

好的。後續活動將於 2026 年舉行。所以您提到，您無法真正確認 2026 年是增長年，但同時，我想，從產能角度來看，您正在為 2026 年的增長年做準備。所以說暫時還只是不確定性，但是根據您與客戶的談話，他們仍然傾向於增加，只是他們不確定關稅的討論是什麼。因此，在這種陰雲密布的情況下，我們可能仍然傾向於積極的一面，我們實際上可能會看到整個行業撤出投資？

Well, I think we also say that today, I think that the fundamentals of our customers are still strong. I think AI is still very strong. I think you also get a sign of that in many news in the last few months. So the fundamentals are strong. And I think that the discussion around tariff, around geopolitics is just inviting some time customer to be a bit more careful.

嗯，我想我們今天也說過，我認為我們客戶的基本面仍然很強勁。我認為人工智慧仍然非常強大。我想你也會在過去幾個月的許多新聞中看到這一點。因此基本面是強勁的。我認為圍繞關稅和地緣政治的討論只是讓一些客戶更加謹慎。

So if this discussion was not there, I think the fundamentals are there, and we would be pretty much on the line we had a few months ago. So I think the way this will get solved in the next few months is very, very important to bring back both stability, confidence, et cetera, et cetera, to our customers. So hopefully, this is a short-term discussion.

因此，如果沒有這次討論，我認為基本面仍然存在，我們基本上會處於幾個月前的水平。因此，我認為在未來幾個月內解決這個問題的方法對於為我們的客戶恢復穩定性、信心等等非常非常重要。所以希望這是一個短期討論。

Just to confirm, is it right to say potentially, it's the delay of decision instead of a change of decision? Of course, I know it's depending on what's the result of the tariff discussion.

只是想確認一下，說這可能是決策的延遲而不是決策的改變，這樣說對嗎？當然，我知道這取決於關稅討論的結果。

I think we are looking more at, I would say, some question on the decision. So it doesn't have to be either a delay or a change, but there's more interrogation about the decisions that have to be made.

我想，我們正在更多地關注有關該決定的一些問題。因此，這不一定是延遲或改變，而是對必須做出的決定進行更多的質疑。

Alexander Duval, Goldman Sachs.

亞歷山大杜瓦爾，高盛。

You talked about how lithography intensity can benefit from leading-edge Memory specifically. I wondered if you could elaborate this and how that's helping litho intensity? And to what extent do you see that as a sustainable trend into next year?

您談到了光刻強度如何從尖端記憶體中受益。我想知道您是否可以詳細說明這一點以及它如何幫助提高光刻強度？您認為這種趨勢在多大程度上會持續到明年？

And then as a quick follow-up, you talked in the past about the focus at ASML on moving towards leveraging common platforms. I wondered if you could give the latest update on progress there and how you're thinking about the timeline to that helping customers and helping ASML.

然後作為一個快速的後續問題，您過去談到 ASML 的重點是利用通用平台。我想知道您是否可以提供那裡的最新進展，以及您如何考慮幫助客戶和 ASML 的時間表。

Yes. So on the first question, I think we talked quite a bit about litho intensity at the Capital Market Day. I think what is very positive about the last few months is we see basically this increased adoption of EUV happening, I think, especially with DRAM customer. The trend, I think, will be sustained. That's what our customers tell us. So we see on the latest node quite a jump on EUV layer for some of the customer.

是的。因此，關於第一個問題，我認為我們在資本市場日上討論了很多有關光刻強度的問題。我認為過去幾個月非常積極的一點是，我們看到 EUV 的採用率基本上在增加，尤其是 DRAM 客戶。我認為這種趨勢將會持續下去。這就是我們的客戶告訴我們的。因此，我們看到，在最新節點上，一些客戶的 EUV 層有了巨大的飛躍。

And the DRAM road map, the technology road map is so complex that EUV more and more is seen basically as a way to simplify a bit of process flow and to get to the performance needed faster. So if we look at, I would say, the next 3-, 4-, 5 nodes, that includes for a square by the way, we see a very positive trend with our DRAM customer. And I think we were foreseeing that last year, and we now have many confirmation point of that. So that's a bit where we are on this.

DRAM 路線圖、技術路線圖非常複雜，EUV 越來越多地被視為一種簡化流程和更快達到所需效能的方法。因此，如果我們看一下接下來的 3、4、5 個節點（順便說一下，包括一個正方形），我們會看到 DRAM 客戶的趨勢非常積極。我認為我們去年就預見了這一點，現在我們有很多證實點。這就是我們現在的處境。

On the next platform. So I think what we explained last year is that we want to continue to improve the performance of EUV. We want to continue to scale productivity. We're going to do that as far as we can on this platform, most probably all the way to the end of this decade, we can continue to improve the performance of the tool on the current platform basically in terms of productivity and overlay.

在下一個平台上。所以我認為我們去年解釋的是，我們希望繼續提高 EUV 的性能。我們希望繼續擴大生產力。我們將在這個平台上盡可能地做到這一點，很可能一直到本世紀末，我們可以繼續在當前平台上改進該工具的性能，基本上是在生產力和覆蓋範圍方面。

And when we see that this become more difficult, then the next platform, which is pretty much the same as the High NA platform, we'll also become available for Low NA so that we can continue this journey for another 10-, 15 years.

當我們發現這變得更加困難時，下一個平台（與高 NA 平台幾乎相同）也將適用於低 NA，以便我們可以繼續這趟旅程 10 到 15 年。

So this will happen most probably, I would say, at the beginning of the next decade. That's at least our current estimation.

所以我想說，這很可能會在下一個十年初發生。這至少是我們目前的估計。

Chris Caso, Wolfe Research.

克里斯·卡索（Chris Caso），沃爾夫研究公司。

I guess the first question is with regard to Memory. And it looks like the revenue and bookings were down a bit in the quarter. Could you talk a little bit about the trends that you're seeing in Memory? And then earlier in the call, you talked about some of the trends with regard to HBM driven by AI. What and when do you expect to see some of those benefits coming into the order book for Memory?

我想第一個問題是關於記憶的。看起來本季的收入和預訂量略有下降。您能否稍微談談您在記憶體中看到的趨勢？在通話早些時候，您談到了一些由 AI 驅動的 HBM 趨勢。您預計這些好處會在何時、什麼時間出現在 Memory 的訂單中？

I think what we say today is, if we look at the Memory revenue, so this is still strong in 2025. So basically about the same level as '24. So the demand on advanced Memory is still strong. That's driven, as you mentioned it, by HBM. So what really happened this year is, I would say, Logic has increased again. So this is, I would say, the biggest change.

我認為我們今天所說的是，如果我們看一下記憶體收入，那麼到 2025 年這一數字仍然很強勁。所以基本上與 24 年的水準大致相同。因此對高級記憶體的需求仍然強勁。正如您所說，這是由 HBM 推動的。所以我想說，今年真正發生的事情是，邏輯性又增強了。所以我想說這是最大的改變。

But if we look forward, AI is both about Logic and HBM. So capacity has to be built on both. I talked about AI fundamentals before that cover both Logic and Memory. So I think Logic was behind last year because the investments were not happening. That's now happening. And I think if we look at the next -- mostly a couple of years, we should still see strong demand on both basically.

但如果我們展望未來，AI 既與邏輯有關，也與 HBM 有關。因此，必須在兩方面都加強能力建構。我之前談到人工智慧基礎知識，涵蓋邏輯和記憶。所以我認為 Logic 去年落後是因為沒有進行投資。現在這種情況正在發生。我認為，如果我們展望未來幾年，我們仍然會看到對這兩種產品的基本需求強勁。

And I guess what you saw in the material was that the bookings from Memory were rather low in the quarter, I think at 16%. But to be honest, that was on the back of a few quarters where actually the order intake for Memory was very high. So last quarter, so in Q1, it was 40%. So there, I think for a number of quarters, Memory order intake was very, very strong. This quarter, it was lower.

我想您在材料中看到的是，本季度來自 Memory 的預訂量相當低，我認為只有 16%。但老實說，這是在幾個季度之後，記憶體的訂單量實際上非常高。上個季度，也就是第一季度，這一比例是 40%。因此，我認為在多個季度中，記憶體訂單量都非常非常強勁。本季度，這一數字有所下降。

But you know what we say about order intake. And I think that also pertains to the composition of the order intake for Memory versus Logic. It's lumpy.

但您知道我們對訂單量的看法。我認為這也與記憶與邏輯的訂單組成有關。它很粗糙。

Yes. Understood. As a follow-up question with regard to China, given that China, it does seem to be above what you had expected at the start of the year. Do you feel that has any implications for China revenue as you're going into next year? There's always concerns about pull-forwards with regard to China. Obviously, the restrictions there are changing.

是的。明白了。關於中國的後續問題，考慮到中國，它確實似乎超出了您年初的預期。您認為這會對明年的中國收入產生什麼影響嗎？人們總是擔心與中國的關係會提早。顯然，那裡的限制正在改變。

What -- because of the upside you're seeing to China this year, does that have any effect on your expectations for China going into next year?

由於您看到今年中國經濟的良好表現，這對您對中國明年經濟的預期有何影響？

Of course, not going to give any projection on 2026, and that would include China. But frankly, for quite a while now, we're seeing there is healthy demand in China. The demand is not falling off a cliff. And I think we see that confirmed year after year, right, that the demand in China remains quite strong. So we don't see a pattern of extreme pulling-in and as a result of that demand falling off a cliff.

當然，我們不會對 2026 年做出任何預測，其中包括中國。但坦白說，相當長一段時間以來，我們看到中國存在著健康的需求。需求並未急劇下降。我認為我們年復一年地看到這一點得到證實，中國的需求仍然非常強勁。因此，我們並沒有看到極端拉動的模式，也沒有看到需求急劇下降的結果。

That's not a dynamic that we see. We believe there is a healthy business in China, in mainstream Logic and in Memory, and we're ready to serve that continued development of that market.

這不是我們所看到的動態。我們相信，中國主流邏輯和記憶體市場的業務發展十分健康，我們已準備好為該市場的持續發展提供服務。

Adithya Metuku, HSBC.

Adithya Metuku，匯豐銀行。

So Roger, just a clarification first. I think you said at the beginning of the call that you had order adjustments in the backlog. Can you explain a bit around what proportion of this order adjustment was EUV-related? And what proportion was DUV and whether this was the across multiple customers or whether this was just one or two customers? Any color around that adjustment would be helpful. And I've got a follow-up.

羅傑，首先澄清一下。我想您在通話開始時說過，您對積壓訂單進行了調整。您能否解釋一下此次訂單調整中有多少比例與 EUV 相關？DUV 的比例是多少？這是針對多個客戶還是僅僅針對一兩個客戶？圍繞該調整的任何顏色都會有幫助。我還有後續行動。

No, the adjustment I specifically talked about was related to China. So there is a EUR1.4 billion adjustment in the backlog that you need to understand, and that is related to customers. Now, in light of the export restrictions of last year, customers have now made up their mind what they want to do and that has led to the debooking or the cancellation of orders for about EUR1.4 billion. That's the comment that I made. And that's a data point you need in order to understand the EUR33 billion backlog that we ended the quarter with.

不，我具體講的調整是跟中國有關的。因此，您需要了解積壓訂單中有 14 億歐元的調整，這與客戶有關。現在，鑑於去年的出口限制，客戶已經做出了決定，這導致約 14 億歐元的訂單被取消。這就是我所發表的評論。這是您需要的數據點，以便了解我們本季末的 330 億歐元積壓訂單。

So this is all Deep UV and a bit of application business, but in essence, most of this is Deep UV.

所以這都是深紫外線和一些應用業務，但本質上，其中大部分是深紫外線。

Understood. And just following on from that. Look, I get the uncertainty around tariffs. But putting that aside, my calculation suggested if you get another EUR6 billion in orders in the second half of this year, that should be enough for you to give -- to deliver flattish growth in 2026. And anything on top of this will drive revenue growth in 2026.

明白了。就這樣繼續下去。瞧，我了解關稅的不確定性。但撇開這一點不談，我的計算表明，如果你在今年下半年再獲得 60 億歐元的訂單，那麼這應該足以讓你在 2026 年實現平穩增長。除此之外，任何因素都將推動 2026 年的營收成長。

Now when I look at the EUR6 billion number, it doesn't seem demanding given you've had almost EUR5 billion in average quarterly order intake over the last four quarters. So if tariffs were to turn out to be benign, would you agree with my math that roughly EUR6 billion in order intake cumulatively over the next two quarters will set you up for flattish growth and anything on top of this will help drive revenue growth in '26?

現在，當我看到 60 億歐元這個數字時，我覺得這並不算高，因為過去四個季度的平均季度訂單量接近 50 億歐元。因此，如果關稅最終變得溫和，您是否同意我的計算，即未來兩個季度累計約 60 億歐元的訂單量將為您帶來平穩的增長，而在此基礎上的任何增長都將有助於推動 26 年的收入增長？

I'm not going to give you a grade on your math, Adithya. So I'm not going to do that for obvious reasons, as I just shared with Krish. We're not going to go into that. There are heavy assumptions in your math on exactly the composition of the order book, what pertains to which year. And in light of what we said at the beginning, we're not going there.

我不會給你的數學打分，Adithya。因此，出於顯而易見的原因，我不會這樣做，正如我剛剛與 Krish 分享的那樣。我們不會深入討論這個。您的數學計算中對訂單簿的具體組成、與哪一年相關的內容做出了大量的假設。鑑於我們一開始所說的，我們不會去那裡。

Okay. No worries. Can I just ask another question then, if that's okay?

好的。不用擔心。如果可以的話，我可以再問一個問題嗎？

So your interpretation is, if I get a lousy answer, I'm entitled to another question. That's okay. Go ahead.

所以你的理解是，如果我得到一個糟糕的答案，我就有權利提出另一個問題。沒關係。前進。

Okay. Just a slightly different topic. But recently, there's been this thesis going around that within the Logic end market, there won't be a rise in litho intensity now until 2030 when your largest customer is expected to adopt High NA EUV.

好的。只是話題稍微不同。但最近有這樣一種觀點：在邏輯終端市場中，直到 2030 年，光刻強度才會上升，屆時預計最大的客戶將採用高 NA EUV。

I just -- this seems a bit pessimistic to me, but I just wondered how you see -- if you would agree with the statement? Or do you think there will be Logic node transitions before 2030 that will lead to a rise in litho intensity potentially at the 14-angstrom node. Any color you can give around this would be helpful.

我只是——這對我來說似乎有點悲觀，但我只是想知道您是如何看待的——您是否同意這個說法？或者您認為 2030 年之前將會出現邏輯節點轉換，這可能會導致 14 埃節點的光刻強度上升。您提供的任何顏色都會有所幫助。

I think this statement should we start with the fact that 2 nanometer, we discussed that many times, is a node basically where we don't see an increase of EUV layers. Now of course, what's happened after that is that gate-all-around is the new architecture and customers are going to go back to drive more density. Many ways to do that.

我認為我們應該從這樣一個事實開始：2 奈米，我們討論過很多次，基本上是一個我們看不到 EUV 層增加的節點。當然，現在發生的事情是，環柵是一種新的架構，客戶將會回頭追求更高的密度。有很多方法可以做到這一點。

One way is to use, of course, more litho intensity. So I think that after the 1.4 nanometer node, we will see again some litho intensity increase some more EUV layers. If you look at the long term also there, the Logic customers are extremely bullish about the need for more EUV layers. So yes, there is one node as it happened before with FinFET, where there's a bit of a pause.

當然，一種方法是使用更高的光刻強度。因此我認為在 1.4 奈米節點之後，我們將再次看到光刻強度增加和更多 EUV 層。如果從長遠來看，Logic 客戶對更多 EUV 層的需求非常樂觀。是的，有一個節點，就像之前在 FinFET 中發生的那樣，那裡有一點停頓。

But I always explain the only reason for that pause is to enable more shrink moving forward. So for every node where you pause basically to change your transistor architecture, usually, you will see 3-, 4-, 5 nodes where you continue basically to shrink and there drive more litho intensity. Timing detail, this is still a very competitive market. AI is driving innovation. So our customers are not standing still. And I think we will see more opportunity in the next few years for sure.

但我總是解釋說，暫停的唯一原因是為了能夠進一步縮小差距。因此，對於每個節點，基本上暫停以改變電晶體架構，通常，您會看到 3、4、5 個節點，這些節點基本上繼續縮小，從而提高光刻強度。時間細節，這仍然是一個競爭非常激烈的市場。人工智慧正在推動創新。所以我們的客戶不會停滯不前。我認為未來幾年我們肯定會看到更多的機會。

Okay. We have time for one very last, very quick question. If you were unable to get through on this call and still have questions, please feel free to contact ASML Investor Relations with your question. And operator, can we have that last quick question, please?

好的。我們還有時間回答最後一個非常簡短的問題。如果您無法接通本次電話並且仍有疑問，請隨時聯絡 ASML 投資者關係部提出您的問題。接線員，我們可以問最後一個快速問題嗎？

Timm Schulze-Melander, Rothschild & Co, Redburn today.

今天，蒂姆·舒爾茨-梅蘭德 (Timm Schulze-Melander)，羅斯柴爾德公司 (Rothschild & Co)，雷德本 (Redburn)。

Maybe I'll ask them both right at the get-go. So the first one was just some clarification, please, from Roger, about installed base management. If I look at the 3Q guide, the full year guide, looks like there's about a EUR400 million decline sequentially in the fourth quarter.

也許我一開始就問他們兩個。因此，首先請羅傑就已安裝基礎管理做出一些澄清。如果我看第三季指南和全年指南，我會發現第四季環比下降了約 4 億歐元。

Is that the scale of the sort of the 3800E contribution to installed base management because I was thinking we'd have quite a lot of argon fluoride shipments from '23 and '24 starting to contribute. So just maybe some color about sequentially what's happening in the fourth quarter in your guide?

這是 3800E 對安裝基礎管理的貢獻規模嗎？因為我認為從 23 年和 24 年開始我們會有相當多的氟化氬出貨量開始做出貢獻。那麼，您的指南中能否依序介紹一下第四季發生的事情呢？

And then a question for Christophe just on High NA adoption. 175 wafers an hour, an impressive achievement. Clearly, you're shipping qualifying a lot. Maybe just in sort of layman's terms, could you share what are the milestones that are still needed for your customers to cross before we can be more confident about when volume manufacturing begins and just the dilution on High NA? Is it -- is the program already above breakeven?

然後我想問一下 Christophe 關於高 NA 採用率的問題。每小時 175 個晶圓，這是一個令人印象深刻的成就。顯然，您運送了大量合格貨物。也許只是用外行人能理解的語言，您能否分享一下您的客戶還需要跨越哪些里程碑，然後我們才能更有信心地確定何時開始批量生產以及高 NA 的稀釋？是嗎－該計劃已經達到損益平衡了嗎？

On the first one, very quickly, what I gave, the 20%, obviously, is a rounded number, right? And then if 20% were 23% or 24%, I think you would already have made up for the big delta that you have there. I think the installed base, particularly the upgrade business, as we mentioned before, was particularly high in the first half. So we do expect that to decline a little bit. But we also do expect a continued increase in the service revenue, not necessarily from ArFi, but definitely from EUV, right?

關於第一個問題，很快，我給的 20% 顯然是一個整數，對嗎？如果 20% 是 23% 或 24%，我想你已經彌補了那裡的巨大差距。我認為安裝基數，特別是升級業務，正如我們之前提到的，在上半年特別高。所以我們確實預計這一數字會略有下降。但我們也確實預期服務收入會持續成長，不一定是來自 ArFi，但肯定是來自 EUV，對嗎？

So on EUV, you see more and more tools getting out of warranty. So that contributes to an increase in the service business. So upgrade business going down a bit, service business continuing to grow up. And I don't think you should expect a draconian movement between the third quarter and the fourth quarter. There's a bit of rounding there that might confuse the analysis.

因此，對於 EUV，您會看到越來越多的工具超出保固期。這有助於服務業務的成長。因此升級業務略有下降，服務業務則持續成長。我認為你不應該預期第三季和第四季之間會出現劇烈波動。那裡有一點四捨五入，可能會使分析變得混亂。

Yes. On High NA, so I think we talked about the three phases in the past. So I think we're still in what I call Phase I, which is basically R&D customer really qualifying the technology with the 5000. There, I think, the good news is the imaging is doing great, overlay is good. So performance of High NA has been validated.

是的。關於高 NA，我認為我們過去討論過三個階段。所以我認為我們仍處於所謂的第一階段，這基本上是研發客戶真正利用 5000 來驗證該技術。我認為，好消息是成像效果很好，疊加效果也很好。因此，高 NA 的性能已得到驗證。

So some of the data shared a few months ago. The shipment of the first 5200 means that we are heading towards Phase II, which will be the qualification of the tool for high-volume manufacturing insertion. And there, the key word is maturity, right? Can the tool run without major interruptions so that the customer not only like the performance but can trust the performance to basically be repeatable in high-volume manufacturing. So I think the next key milestone is about the maturity of the tool. And this will be a lot of work this year, next year.

這是幾個月前分享的一些數據。首批 5200 台設備的出貨意味著我們正邁向第二階段，該階段將對工具進行大批量製造插入的資格認證。這裡的關鍵字是成熟，對嗎？該工具能否無重大中斷地運行，以便客戶不僅喜歡其性能，而且可以相信其性能在大批量生產中基本上是可重複的。所以我認為下一個關鍵里程碑是關於工具的成熟度。今年和明年都會有很多工作要做。

And when this is validated, this is where customers start to really count on the system to do some good work in manufacturing. So that's a bit the sequence of the milestone.

當這一點得到驗證時，客戶就會開始真正依賴系統在製造過程中發揮良好的作用。這就是里程碑的順序。

So now on behalf of ASML, I'd like to thank you all for joining us today. And I'll ask the operator, if you could formally conclude the call, I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

現在，我謹代表 ASML 感謝大家今天的參加。我會問接線員，您是否可以正式結束通話，我將非常感激。謝謝。

Thank you. This concludes the ASML 2025 second quarter financial results conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

謝謝。ASML 2025 年第二季財務業績電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。