艾司摩爾 (ASML) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good day, and thank you for standing by.

您好，感謝您的支持。

Welcome to the ASML 2024 fourth-quarter and full-year financial results conference call on January 29, 2025.

歡迎參加 2025 年 1 月 29 日 ASML 2024 年第四季及全年財務業績電話會議。

(Operator Instructions) Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.

（操作員指示）請注意，今天的會議正在錄音。

I would now like to hand the conference call over to Mr. Jim Kavanagh.

現在，我想將電話會議交給吉姆·卡瓦納先生。

Please go ahead.

請繼續。

Thank you, operator.

謝謝您，接線生。

Welcome, everyone.

歡迎大家。

This is Jim Kavanagh, Vice President of Investor Relations at ASML.

這是 ASML 投資者關係副總裁 Jim Kavanagh。

Joining me today on the call are ASML's CEO, Christophe Fouquet; and our CFO, Roger Dassen.

今天與我一起參加電話會議的還有 ASML 的執行長 Christophe Fouquet；以及我們的財務長 Roger Dassen。

The subject of today's call is ASML's fourth quarter and full year results 2024.

今天電話會議的主題是 ASML 2024 年第四季和全年業績。

The length of this call will be 60 minutes, and questions will be taken in the order that they are received.

此次通話時間為 60 分鐘，問題將依照收到的順序回答。

This call is also being broadcast live over the Internet on www.asml.com. A transcript of management's opening remarks and a replay of the call will be available on our website shortly following the conclusion of this call.

本次電話會議也將透過網路（www.asml.com）進行現場直播。本次電話會議結束後不久，我們將在我們的網站上提供管理層開場白的記錄和電話會議的重播。

Before we begin, I would like to caution listeners that comments made by management during this conference call will include forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws.

在我們開始之前，我想提醒聽眾，管理階層在本次電話會議中發表的評論將包括聯邦證券法所定義的前瞻性陳述。

These forward-looking statements involve material risks and uncertainties.

這些前瞻性陳述涉及重大風險和不確定性。

For a discussion of risk factors, I encourage you to review the Safe Harbor statements contained in today's press release and presentation found on our website at www.asml.com and at ASML's annual report on Form 20-F and other documents as filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

有關風險因素的討論，我鼓勵您查看今天的新聞稿和簡報中包含的安全港聲明，這些聲明可在我們的網站www.asml.com 上找到，也可以在ASML 的20-F 表格年度報告中找到，以及向ASML 提交的其他文件中找到。

With that, I would like to turn the call over to Christophe Fouquet for a brief introduction.

接下來，我想將電話轉給 Christophe Fouquet 進行簡短介紹。

Thank you, Jim.

謝謝你，吉姆。

Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our fourth-quarter and full-year 2024 results conference call.

歡迎大家，感謝您參加我們的 2024 年第四季和全年業績電話會議。

Before we begin the Q&A session, Roger and I would like to provide an overview and some commentary on the fourth-quarter and full-year 2024 results, as well as provide some additional comments on the current business environment and on our future business outlook.

在我們開始問答環節之前，羅傑和我想對 2024 年第四季和全年業績進行概述和評論，並對當前的商業環境和我們未來的業務前景提供一些額外的評論。

Roger?

羅傑？

Thank you, Christophe, and welcome, everyone.

謝謝你，克里斯托夫，歡迎大家。

I will first review the fourth-quarter and full-year 2024 financial accomplishments and then provide guidance on the first quarter of 2025.

我將首先回顧 2024 年第四季和全年的財務業績，然後對 2025 年第一季提供指導。

Let me start with our fourth-quarter accomplishments.

讓我先介紹一下我們第四季的業績。

In the fourth quarter of 2024, total net sales were EUR9.3 billion, which is above the high end of our guidance primarily due to installed base revenue.

2024 年第四季度，總淨銷售額為 93 億歐元，高於我們預期的高端，這主要歸功於安裝基數收入。

As expected, it also included revenue recognition on two High NA systems.

正如預期的那樣，它還包括兩個高 NA 系統的收入確認。

Net system sales were at EUR7.1 billion, which includes EUR2.9 billion from EUV sales and EUR4.2 billion from non-EUV sales.

淨系統銷售額為 71 億歐元，其中包括 EUV 銷售額 29 億歐元和非 EUV 銷售額 42 億歐元。

Net system sales was driven by Logic at 61%, with the remaining 39% coming from Memory.

淨系統銷售額的 61% 由邏輯產品推動，其餘 39% 來自記憶體。

Installed Base Management sales for the quarter were above guidance at EUR2.1 billion, primarily driven by additional upgrade business.

本季安裝基礎管理銷售額高於預期，達到 21 億歐元，主要受到額外升級業務的推動。

Gross margin for the quarter was above guidance at 51.7%, due to a combination of additional upgrade business and lower than planned costs associated with the new product introduction of High NA systems in the field.

本季毛利率高於預期，達到 51.7%，這得益於額外的升級業務，以及在現場推出高 NA 系統新產品的成本低於計劃。

On operating expenses, R&D expenses came at EUR1.116 billion, in line with guidance, while SG&A expenses came in above guidance at EUR318 million, due to year-end payroll adjustments and a pull-in of IT costs.

在營運費用方面，研發費用為 11.16 億歐元，符合預期，而銷售、一般及行政開支高於預期，為 3.18 億歐元，原因是年終工資調整和 IT 成本的拉動。

The effective tax rate for Q4 was 21.5% as a result of a one-off tax expense related to a historic tax position, bringing the full-year ETR to 18.6%.

由於與歷史稅務狀況相關的一次性稅費，第四季度的有效稅率為 21.5%，使全年實際稅率達到 18.6%。

For 2025, we expect an annualized effective tax rate of around 17%.

到 2025 年，我們預計年化有效稅率約為 17%。

Net income in Q4 was EUR2.7 billion, representing 29.1% of total net sales and resulting in an EPS of EUR6.85.

第四季淨收入為 27 億歐元，佔總淨銷售額的 29.1%，每股收益為 6.85 歐元。

Turning to the balance sheet.

轉向資產負債表。

We ended the fourth quarter with cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments at a level of EUR12.7 billion.

截至第四季度，我們的現金、現金等價物和短期投資總額為 127 億歐元。

We ended Q4 with a free cash flow of EUR8.839 billion, which is significantly higher relative to last quarters, with the majority of the cash coming in at the very end of the quarter.

我們第四季的自由現金流為 88.39 億歐元，較上一季大幅增加，其中大部分現金是在本季末流入的。

Moving to the order book, Q4 net system bookings came in at EUR7.1 billion, which is made up of EUR3 billion of EUV and EUR4.1 billion of non-EUV.

從訂單量來看，第四季淨系統訂單金額為 71 億歐元，其中 EUV 訂單額為 30 億歐元，非 EUV 訂單金額為 41 億歐元。

Net system bookings in the quarter were driven by Logic, with 61% of the bookings, with Memory accounting for the remaining 39%.

本季的淨系統預訂量由邏輯驅動，佔預訂量的 61%，而記憶體佔剩餘的 39%。

At this point, I would like to briefly comment on the reporting of our bookings going forward.

此時，我想簡要地評論一下我們未來的預訂報告。

As we have said in the past, our order flow on a quarterly basis can be lumpy and does not necessarily reflect our business momentum accurately.

正如我們過去所說，我們的季度訂單流可能不穩定，並不一定準確反映我們的業務發展動能。

Our sales guidance is primarily based on regular reviews with all our customers as part of our planning cycle.

我們的銷售指導主要基於我們規劃週期內對所有客戶的定期審查。

With this in mind, we will continue to report bookings on a quarterly basis through 2025, but will no longer report on bookings thereafter.

考慮到這一點，我們將繼續按季度報告預訂情況，直至 2025 年，但此後將不再報告預訂情況。

As of 2026, we will report the total systems backlog on an annual basis.

自 2026 年起，我們將按年報告系統積壓總量。

Looking at the full year, net sales came in at EUR28.3 billion, with a gross margin of 51.3%.

縱觀全年，淨銷售額為283億歐元，毛利率為51.3%。

EUV system sales realized from 44 systems including High NA were EUR8.3 billion, 9% lower compared to 2023.

包括 High NA 在內的 44 個系統實現的 EUV 系統銷售額為 83 億歐元，與 2023 年相比下降 9%。

DUV system sales grew 4% to EUR12.8 billion.

DUV 系統銷售額成長 4% 至 128 億歐元。

Our Metrology and Inspection system sales increased 20% to EUR646 million.

我們的計量和檢測系統銷售額成長了 20%，達到 6.46 億歐元。

Looking at the market segments for 2024, Logic system revenue was EUR13.2 billion, 17% lower than 2023.

放眼2024年的細分市場，邏輯系統收入為132億歐元，比2023年低17%。

Memory system revenue was EUR8.6 billion, 44% higher than 2023.

記憶體系統收入為86億歐元，比2023年高出44%。

And Installed Base Management sales were EUR6.5 billion, 16% higher than 2023.

安裝基礎管理銷售額為 65 億歐元，比 2023 年高出 16%。

We concluded 2024 with a net systems backlog of around EUR36 billion.

截至 2024 年，我們的淨系統積壓訂單約為 360 億歐元。

In 2024, we continued to invest in innovation across our full product portfolio, increasing R&D spending to EUR4.3 billion in 2024 or about 15% of sales.

2024 年，我們將繼續對全產品組合的創新進行投資，將研發支出增加到 43 億歐元，約佔銷售額的 15%。

SG&A increased to EUR1.2 billion in 2024, which was about 4% of sales.

2024 年銷售、一般及行政費用增加至 12 億歐元，約佔銷售額的 4%。

Net income for the full year was EUR7.6 billion, 26.8% of net sales, resulting in an earnings per share of EUR19.25.

全年淨收入為76億歐元，佔淨銷售額的26.8%，每股收益為19.25歐元。

In 2024, we generated free cash flow of EUR9.1 billion.

2024年，我們產生了91億歐元的自由現金流。

We returned EUR3 billion to shareholders through a combination of dividends and share buybacks in 2024.

2024年，我們透過股利和股票回購的方式向股東返還了30億歐元。

With that, I would like to turn to our expectations for the first quarter of 2025.

因此，我想談談我們對 2025 年第一季的期望。

We expect Q1 total net sales to be between EUR7.5 billion and EUR8 billion euros.

我們預計第一季總淨銷售額將在 75 億歐元至 80 億歐元之間。

We expect our Q1 Installed Base Management sales to be around EUR2.1 billion.

我們預計第一季安裝基礎管理銷售額約為 21 億歐元。

Gross margin for Q1 is expected to be between 52% and 53%.

預計第一季的毛利率在52%至53%之間。

This is primarily driven by a positive effect from no High NA revenue recognition in the quarter, partly offset by lower immersion volume.

這主要得益於本季沒有高 NA 收入確認的正面影響，但沉浸式播放量的降低部分抵消了這一影響。

The expected R&D expenses for Q1 are around EUR1.14 billion euros, and SG&A is expected to be around EUR290 million euros.

Q1預計研發費用約11.4億歐元，SG&A費用預計約2.9億歐元。

In Q4, ASML paid the second quarterly interim dividend over 2024 of EUR1.52 per ordinary share.

第四季度，ASML 支付了 2024 年第二季中期股息，每股普通股 1.52 歐元。

ASML intends to declare a total dividend for the year 2024 of EUR6.4 euros per ordinary share.

ASML 打算宣布 2024 年每股普通股的總股息為 6.4 歐元。

The third interim dividend of EUR1.52 per ordinary share will be made payable on February 19, 2025.

第三次中期股利每股普通股 1.52 歐元，將於 2025 年 2 月 19 日支付。

Recognizing this third interim dividend and the two interim dividends of EUR1.52 per ordinary share paid in 2024, this leads to a final dividend proposal to the general meeting of EUR1.84 per ordinary share.

考慮到本次第三次中期股息以及 2024 年支付的兩次每股普通股 1.52 歐元的中期股息，向股東大會提出的最終股息建議為每股普通股 1.84 歐元。

In Q4 2024, no shares were purchased.

2024 年第四季度，沒有買任何股票。

With that, I would like to turn the call back over to Christophe.

說完這些，我想把電話轉回給克里斯托夫。

Thank you, Roger.

謝謝你，羅傑。

As Roger has highlighted, we finished 2024 with a strong quarter.

正如羅傑所強調的那樣，我們以強勁的勢頭結束了 2024 年。

We are extremely thankful to the whole ASML team that worked very hard to realize these results.

我們非常感謝整個 ASML 團隊為實現這些成果所付出的努力。

In 2024, we have also successfully achieved a number of technology milestones, including the release of a number of new products critical for our customers technology roadmaps.

2024年，我們也成功實現了多項技術里程碑，包括發布了多款對客戶技術路線圖至關重要的新產品。

On our Low NA EUV technology, the NXE:3800E, we demonstrated the full system specification in our factory with 220 wafers per hour throughput at a new record overlay.

在我們的低NA EUV 技術 NXE:3800E 上，我們在工廠展示了完整的系統規格，每小時可生產 220 片晶圓，創下了新的覆蓋記錄。

We are on track to deliver new systems at full specification and start upgrades for the systems already at our customers during the first half of 2025.

我們預計在 2025 年上半年交付完全符合規格的新系統，並開始對客戶現有的系統進行升級。

We continue to work with our customers to drive the maturation of the system to support their ramp to high volume manufacturing.

我們將繼續與客戶合作，推動系統的成熟，以支持他們實現大量生產。

On High NA EUV, we completed the installation and customer acceptance on two systems in Q4.

對於高NA EUV，我們在第四季度完成了兩個系統的安裝和客戶驗收。

Customers have now run over 10,000 wafers on High NA systems, and their feedback has been very positive.

客戶目前已在高 NA 系統上運行了超過 10,000 個晶圓，並且他們的反饋非常積極。

They are seeing major performance benefits in imaging, overlay, and contrast which also provide significant cost reduction opportunities for both Logic and DRAM processes.

他們在成像、覆蓋和對比度方面看到了巨大的性能優勢，這也為邏輯和 DRAM 製程提供了顯著的成本降低機會。

We continue to work with our customers to define the exact insertion point for High NA in their processes.

我們將繼續與客戶合作，在他們的流程中確定高 NA 的準確插入點。

We also shipped a third system in Q4 that is now undergoing install and qualification.

我們還在第四季度交付了第三個系統，目前正在進行安裝和鑑定。

On DUV, we shipped the first NXT:870B, the latest generation KrF system capable of throughput of over 400 wafers per hour; and the NXT:2150i, the latest generation immersion DUV system capable of achieving throughput over 310 wafers per hour and overlay performance of equal or less than 1 nanometer.

在 DUV 方面，我們交付了第一台 NXT:870B，這是最新一代 KrF 系統，每小時的產量能夠超過 400 片晶圓；以及最新一代浸沒式 DUV 系統 N​​XT:2150i，其每小時的產量可達 310 片以上晶圓，疊加性能等於或小於 1 奈米。

And finally, in Applications, after close collaboration with multiple customers, we have successfully completed the evaluations and recognized first revenue from a number of eScan 1100 Multi-beam Inspection systems.

最後，在應用方面，經過與多個客戶的密切合作，我們成功完成了評估，並從多個 eScan 1100 多光束檢測系統中獲得了第一筆收入。

All in all, our product pipeline remains strong, supporting the roadmap requirements of our customers and driving our overall competitiveness.

總而言之，我們的產品線仍然強勁，支持客戶的路線圖要求並推動我們的整體競爭力。

We will share more performance data at the SPIE Lithography conference in February.

我們將在二月的 SPIE 光刻會議上分享更多效能數據。

Looking to 2025, we see full-year revenue between EUR30 billion and EUR35 billion and gross margin between 51% and 53%.

展望 2025 年，我們預計全年營收在 300 億歐元至 350 億歐元之間，毛利率在 51% 至 53% 之間。

Consistent with our view from last quarter, artificial intelligence has become the key driver for growth in our industry at this moment.

與我們上個季度的觀點一致，人工智慧目前已成為我們行業成長的主要驅動力。

As we have witnessed in 2024, AI has created a shift in the market dynamics that is not benefiting all customers equally in the short term.

正如我們在 2024 年所見證的那樣，人工智慧已經引起了市場動態的變化，但短期內並不會為所有客戶帶來同等的利益。

If AI demand continues to be strong and customers are successful in bringing on additional capacity online to support that demand, there is potential opportunity towards the upper end of our range.

如果人工智慧需求持續強勁，而客戶成功在線上引入額外產能來滿足這一需求，那麼就有潛在的機會達到我們範圍的上限。

On the other hand, there are also risks related to customers and geopolitics that could drive results towards the lower end of the range.

另一方面，與客戶和地緣政治相關的風險也可能導致業績跌至區間的低端。

Looking at market segments, we currently expect Logic to be up versus 2024 with the ramp of leading-edge nodes, while we expect Memory to remain strong, similar to 2024.

從細分市場來看，我們目前預計，隨著尖端節點的崛起，邏輯市場將在 2024 年有所上漲，而我們預計，記憶體市場將保持強勁，與 2024 年類似。

With respect to our Installed Base business, we expect revenue to grow versus 2024 driven by both service and upgrades as part of a growing install base to which EUV's contribution is continuing to grow.

就我們的安裝基數業務而言，我們預計收入將在服務和升級的推動下較 2024 年有所增長，這是安裝基數不斷增長的一部分，而 EUV 的貢獻也將繼續增長。

Our China business in 2023 and 2024 was relatively high because of our ability to execute on a backlog that was created after low order fill rates in previous years.

由於我們有能力處理前幾年訂單滿足率低後產生的積壓訂單，我們在 2023 年和 2024 年的中國業務相對較高。

For 2025 and beyond, we expect our China business to go back to a more normalized percentage of our sales.

我們預計，到 2025 年及以後，中國業務的銷售額佔比將恢復到更正常的水平。

Looking longer term, overall, the semiconductor market remains strong with artificial intelligence creating growth, but also a shift in market dynamics as I highlighted earlier.

從長期來看，總體而言，半導體市場仍然保持強勁，人工智慧創造成長，但正如我之前強調的那樣，市場動態也發生了轉變。

These dynamics will lead to a shift in the mix of end market products towards more HPC and HBM which requires more advanced logic and DRAM.

這些動態將導致終端市場產品組合轉向更多 HPC 和 HBM 轉變，而這需要更先進的邏輯和 DRAM。

For ASML, we anticipate that an increased number of critical lithography exposures for these advanced Logic and Memory processes will drive increasing demand for ASML products and services.

對於 ASML，我們預計這些先進邏輯和記憶體製程的關鍵光刻曝光數量的增加將推動對 ASML 產品和服務的需求不斷增長。

As a result, we see a 2030 revenue opportunity between EUR44 billion and EUR60 billion, with gross margins expected between 56% and 66% (sic - see slide 26, "60%"), as we presented in Investor Day 2024.

因此，我們預計2030 年的收入機會在440 億歐元至600 億歐元之間，毛利率預計在56% 至66% 之間（原文如此- 參見幻燈片26，“60%”），正如我們在2024年投資者日所介紹的那樣。

With that, we would be happy to take your questions.

我們很樂意回答您的問題。

Thank you, Roger and Christoph.

謝謝你，羅傑和克里斯托夫。

The operator will now instruct you all momentarily on the protocol for the Q&A session.

接線生現在將暫時向大家介紹問答環節的規程。

Before, I would like to ask you kindly limit yourself to one question with one short follow-up, if necessary.

在此之前，我希望您將問題限制在一個範圍內，如果有必要的話，可以做一次簡短的跟進。

This will allow us to get through as many callers as possible.

這將使我們能夠接通盡可能多的來電者。

Now, operator, could we have your final instructions and then the first question, please?

現在，接線員，您能給我們最後的指示，然後問第一個問題嗎？

(Operator Instructions) Joe Quatrochi, Wells Fargo.

（操作員指示）喬·夸特羅奇（Joe Quatrochi），富國銀行。

I had a question on your 2025 outlook.

我對您的 2025 年展望有一個疑問。

You mentioned that if customers are able to build capacity for AI, then you think you can hit the high end of your revenue guide.

您提到，如果客戶能夠建立 AI 能力，那麼您認為您可以達到收入指南的高端。

How do we think about that relative to your lead times?

相對於您的交貨時間，我們如何看待這一點？

I know you've prebuilt some EUV tools.

我知道您已經預先建造了一些 EUV 工具。

Shouldn't we have a pretty decent idea in the first half of this year if that high end of the target guide is possible?

如果目標指南的高端是可以實現的，那麼我們在今年上半年不是應該有一個相當不錯的想法嗎？

I think as we go into the year, I think that we'll have indeed more visibility on what the final expectation is going to be.

我認為，隨著進入新的一年，我們將對最終的預期有更清晰的認識。

I think right now, we are in our supply plan taking into account some of the upside we see.

我認為現在，我們的供應計劃已經考慮到了我們看到的一些好處。

So we are preparing for that.

所以我們正在為此做準備。

And I think you're getting it right.

我認為你說的對。

As time goes and this opportunity becomes more concrete or less concrete, we will decide to build or not build those tools.

隨著時間的推移，這個機會變得更加具體或不那麼具體，我們將決定是否要建構這些工具。

And then in terms of the gross margin dynamics, the cost of High NA installs this past quarter was a bit lower than expected.

從毛利率動態來看，上個季度高 NA 安裝成本略低於預期。

As we look in the second half and you talk about gross margin maybe a little bit higher in the first half, how do we think about the expectations of just the cost of installing those tools in the first half relative to the outperformance that you saw this past quarter?

當我們展望下半年時，您說上半年的毛利率可能會高一點，那麼我們如何看待上半年安裝這些工具的成本預期，相對於您今年看到的優異表現？

Is there any update there?

那裡有更新嗎？

Yeah, Joe. So indeed, the costs were a little bit lower in the last quarter.

是的，喬。因此，上個季度的成本確實略低一些。

Coming up with our projections for 2025, I would say that those learnings are also embedded in there.

在製定 2025 年預測時，我想說這些經驗也已融入其中。

So we are recognizing in 2025 that we have lower costs.

因此我們認識到 2025 年我們的成本將會降低。

So I would still see that as a one-off benefit to the quarter.

因此我仍然認為這是本季的一次性福利。

I wouldn't necessarily read into that that were going to have a significant savings that were not recognized when we provided the 51% to 53% guidance.

我不一定會認為當我們提供 51% 至 53% 的指導時，會有顯著的節省未被認識到。

But you are right.

但你是對的。

In the second half, we did say that we expect the gross margin to be a little bit lower because the revenue recognition on High NA is skewed towards the second half.

在下半年，我們確實說過，我們預期毛利率會稍微低一些，因為高 NA 的收入確認傾向於下半年。

Tammy Qiu, Berenberg Bank.

貝倫貝格銀行的 Tammy Qiu。

So firstly, on High NA. since CMD, you have been mentioning that the progress at customers has been ahead of where you were expecting.

首先，關於高 NA。自 CMD 以來，您一直提到客戶的進展已經超出了您的預期。

So currently, of course, you are negotiating with them the time frame, et cetera.

因此目前你當然正在跟他們協商時間框架等等。

But can you comment if there is any potential for them to use it quicker because that helps them saving the cost of manufacturing?

但是您能否評論一下他們是否有可能更快地使用它，因為這有助於他們節省製造成本？

Tammy, this is Christophe.

塔米，這是克里斯托夫。

So I think that there's a few conditions for customers to use a new tool like High NA.

所以我認為客戶使用像 High NA 這樣的新工具需要滿足一些條件。

The first one is the one you repeated, which is the performance have to be attractive, have to be good.

第一點是你剛才重複提到的，那就是表演必須要有吸引力，必須要出色。

I think that's most probably one requirement we check at this point of time.

我認為這很可能是我們此時檢查的一項要求。

The second one is going to be the maturity of the platform.

第二個是平台的成熟度。

And there, as you know, we typically try to ship a few early tools.

如您所知，我們通常會嘗試發布一些早期工具。

These are our 5000 so that we can start more aggressively on maturity.

這些就是我們的 5000 個，以便我們可以更積極地開始成熟。

We are going to start shipping the 5200, which is a tool more fit to high-volume manufacturing.

我們將開始發售 5200，這是一種更適合大量生產的工具。

And then we'll have to spend a bit of time to demonstrate that the maturity of the tool is such that customers are comfortable to use it in production.

然後我們需要花一些時間來證明該工具的成熟度，以便客戶可以輕鬆地在生產中使用它。

So that process typically takes 12, 18 months.

所以這個過程通常要12到18個月。

It depends a bit on where we start with the tool.

這有點取決於我們從哪裡開始使用該工具。

And the discussion is a discussion we have, I will say, on a regular basis.

我想說的是，我們常常會進行這樣的討論。

Because again, depending on the progress, of course, the appetite to move faster or slower is going to be adjusted.

因為同樣，根據進度，加快或放慢速度的意願當然會進行調整。

Okay, okay.

好的，好的。

I guess I will circle back in 12 months' time.

我想我會在 12 個月後回來。

And also, just in terms of China.

而且，僅就中國而言。

So China, I noticed that we have been pulling in some of the orders maybe because of the pending US restriction, which is supposed to be implemented quite soon -- I mean, a new wave.

所以，我注意到，中國我們已經撤回了一些訂單，這可能是因為美國即將實施的限制措施，這項限制措施應該很快就會實施——我的意思是，將出現新一波疫情。

Do you actually see your customer pulling in their order?

您是否確實看到您的客戶下達了他們的訂單？

As a result, do you see China order decline quicker in the coming months because of everything has been pulled in?

因此，您是否認為，由於所有訂單都被撤回，未來幾個月中國訂單下降的速度會更快？

And also, I know that you mentioned in the pre-recorded video that China was -- China expectations on US bank has to fall into expectations.

而且，我知道您在預先錄製的影片中提到中國——中國對美國銀行的預期必須落入預期。

So do you think there is potential for China to have some downside or upside in this year as you have everything clearer to you versus three months ago?

那麼，您是否認為今年中國經濟有可能出現下滑還是上漲，因為與三個月前相比，您對所有事情都更加清楚了？

I think to be honest, our view on China hasn't really changed in comparison to when we last spoke, right?

我想說實話，我們對中國的看法與我們上次談話時相比並沒有改變，對嗎？

So when we last spoke, we said the key dynamic on China is that -- and why China was so very strong in 2023 and 2024 now, as well as for a number of years, we have been building up a very significant backlog because all the fill rates for China was so low.

因此，當我們上次談話時，我們說中國的關鍵動態是——為什麼中國在 2023 年和 2024 年如此強大，以及多年來，我們一直在積累大量積壓訂單，因為所有中國的填充率都非常低。

That is the reason why the China sales in 2023 and 2024 was so high.

這就是 2023 年和 2024 年中國銷量如此之高的原因。

And that is also the reason now that -- around this point in time, where we have eaten significantly into that backlog, we say that backlog is being normalized.

這也是現在的原因——在這個時候，我們已經大大減少了積壓訂單，我們說積壓訂單正在正常化。

And that also means that we believe that the sales to China will be a more normalized percentage.

這也意味著我們相信對中國的銷售額將達到更正常化的百分比。

And as we said, we think that is a low 20% number that China will represent in 2025 in our total sales numbers.

正如我們所說，我們認為到 2025 年中國在我們的總銷售額中所佔的比例將低於 20%。

That is what is going on.

這就是正在發生的事情。

The order intake that we received from China in the fourth quarter, I would quote as healthy.

我認為，我們第四季從中國收到的訂單量是健康的。

But it's not an order intake that is, in any way, dramatic or skewed or whatever.

但無論如何，這並不是戲劇性的、扭曲的或諸如此類的訂單量。

That's not the case.

事實並非如此。

It is, again, a relatively normal order intake for China.

對中國來說，這又是一次相對正常的訂單量。

And therefore, I think the expectation that we articulated last time, China to be a more normalized percentage of our sales, I think that's what you will see in '25, and, frankly, beyond.

因此，我認為我們上次表達的預期是，中國市場在我們的銷售額中所佔的比例將更加正常化，我認為這就是你在2025年，甚至更久以後將會看到的情況。

Sara Russo, Bernstein.

薩拉魯索、伯恩斯坦。

So we've had quite a few conversations around your decision to phase out bookings information.

因此，我們就您逐步淘汰預訂資訊的決定進行了多次討論。

And as we understand, it only provide a backlog of you annually.

據我們了解，它每年僅提供少量積壓。

Can you talk us through the decision to do that?

您能和我們講講為什麼做出這個決定嗎？

And I guess, what are you expecting to be the reaction from investors?

我想，您預期投資人會有什麼反應？

And is this a response to the increased focus you've been seeing on bookings that seems to be taking place over the last 12 to 18 months?

這是對過去 12 到 18 個月來預訂量日益受關注的回應嗎？

I think we explained it in the video.

我想我們已經在視頻中解釋過了。

And just to recap where we are, the way we come up with our annual guidance is really based on the review process that we have with our customers.

回顧我們目前的情況，我們制定年度指導的方式實際上是基於我們與客戶的審查流程。

We have ongoing dialogues with our customers.

我們與客戶保持持續的對話。

And based on that, that gives us the insight into their business, and that gives us the basis to then articulate at the start of the year where we think the total sales level for the year is going to be.

基於此，我們可以深入了解他們的業務，並為我們在年初明確全年總銷售水準提供基礎。

As you have seen in previous quarters and as we have highlighted multiple times, order intake can be very lumpy.

正如您在前幾個季度所看到的以及我們多次強調的那樣，訂單量可能非常不穩定。

And that is because the total size of the orders per customer's operating significance, given the tool prices for High-NA tools, for Low-NA tools, which, as you know, are pretty substantive.

這是因為，考慮到高NA工具和低NA工具的工具價格，每個客戶的訂單總量對營運意義重大，正如你所知，這些工具的價格相當可觀。

If orders -- if customers take a number of tools, which they typically do, you get to very, very high numbers.

如果訂單——如果客戶拿走一些工具，他們通常會這樣做，那麼你就會得到非常非常高的數量。

And that means that if you have a few large customers that place an order in one quarter, they typically wouldn't do it in one quarter and then get another massive order intake in the quarter thereafter.

這意味著，如果您有幾個大客戶在一個季度內下了訂單，他們通常不會在一個季度內完成訂單，然後在隨後的季度再獲得大量訂單。

So as a result of that, you see (technical difficulty) sometimes very high order intake in one quarter and then a lower order intake in other quarters.

因此，您會看到（技術難度）有時某個季度的訂單量非常高，而其他季度的訂單量卻較低。

That does not necessarily reflect the business momentum that we enjoy.

這並不一定反映我們所享有的業務動能。

And that's why we think that the market is better off with us having a robust discussion and a robustly underpinned guidance that we provided at the beginning of the year.

這就是為什麼我們認為，如果我們在年初進行了熱烈的討論並給出了強有力的指導，市場將會變得更好。

We think that is more meaningful than the swings in the order pattern that you've seen before.

我們認為這比您之前看到的訂單模式波動更有意義。

If you look at past quarters, you do see that the market looks at these orders.

如果你回顧過去幾個季度，你確實會發現市場正在關注這些訂單。

And sometimes, the reactions, both in terms of positive and in terms of negative order intake, reactions can be quite significant.

有時，無論是正面的還是負面的訂單量，反應都可能非常顯著。

And that has been the reason that we say -- we have been telling the market that order intake is lumpy.

這就是我們所說的原因——我們一直在告訴市場訂單量不穩定。

We have been saying that it doesn't necessarily reflect the business momentum accurately.

我們一直在說它不一定準確反映業務動能。

But we do see very significant market response to it.

但我們確實看到市場對此反應非常強烈。

And as a result of that, we have reached a conclusion that maybe the market is better off with what I just gave you, including an annual update of the backlog.

因此，我們得出的結論是，也許我剛才提供的資訊（包括每年對積壓訂單的更新）對市場更有利。

So from that regard, we came to the conclusion that less is actually more.

因此從這個角度來看，我們得出結論：少即是多。

This is something that we discussed with quite a few of you.

這是我們與你們中的許多人討論過的事情。

When we had the Investor Day, we discussed this quite extensively with many investors.

當我們舉辦投資者日時，我們與許多投資者進行了廣泛的討論。

And the conversations that we had there gave the confidence to Christophe, myself, and the full team that the decision that we just took is the right decision for the company for its stakeholders.

我們在那裡進行的對話使克里斯托夫、我本人以及整個團隊相信，我們剛剛做出的決定對公司及其利益相關者來說都是正確的決定。

Great.

偉大的。

Really appreciate the additional context there.

真的很感謝那裡的補充背景。

And then maybe just a quick follow-up.

然後可能只是一個快速的跟進。

One of the pieces of guidance that you were talking about in the last quarter results was you were probably at the bottom end for EUV bookings to see the low end of guidance.

您在上個季度的業績中談到的指導意見之一是，您可能處於 EUV 預訂量的底端，從而看到了指導意見的低端。

And since you've had a very strong quarter of bookings now, EUR3 billion of EUV, are you more confident in the midpoint of guidance?

由於您目前這個季度的訂單量非常強勁，EUV 訂單量達到 30 億歐元，您是否對預期中位數更有信心？

Or are you starting to see 2026 EUV orders come through as well given the typical 18-month lead times?

或者，考慮到典型的 18 個月的交貨時間，您是否也開始看到 2026 年 EUV 訂單的到來？

Yeah.

是的。

What we said last time is indeed that we needed about EUR2 billion of EUV orders to get cover for EUV on the midpoint of 2025.

我們上次確實說過，我們需要大約 20 億歐元的 EUV 訂單才能在 2025 年中期獲得 EUV 覆蓋。

So with the EUR3 billion that we have in there, we've reached that point.

所以，憑藉我們投入的 30 億歐元，我們已經達到了這個水準。

So it's clear that we're either starting to build on '26 or we're starting to build into the higher end of the guidance, but that really is the timing -- is really that timing question that is dependent on it.

因此很明顯，我們要么開始在 26 年的基礎上繼續發展，要么開始達到指導值的更高水平，但這確實是時機問題——實際上是取決於它的時機問題。

But you are right.

但你是對的。

We said we need to get a EUR2 billion order intake for EUV, and the fact that we have been recording EUR3 billion gives us, I would say, a good confidence on (technical difficulty) at least for the EUV part on the midpoint.

我們說過，我們需要獲得 20 億歐元的 EUV 訂單量，而事實上我們已經獲得了 30 億歐元的訂單量，這讓我們對中期 EUV 部分的技術難度充滿信心。

On [deep UV], we're not yet fully covered.

對於[深紫外線]，我們尚未完全覆蓋。

But I think the coverage there is quite high for the midpoint of the guidance as well.

但我認為，對於指導的中點來說，那裡的覆蓋率也相當高。

But as also Christophe mentioned, of course, there are always timing issues.

但正如克里斯托夫所提到的那樣，當然總是存在時間問題。

And customers always have the ability during the year to either pull in or push out from the last quarter.

並且客戶在一年中始終有能力從最後一個季度開始增加或減少訂單。

Francois Bouvignies, UBS.

瑞銀的 Francois Bouvignies。

My first question is you see a strong demand for EUV Logic driven by AI, Christophe, you mentioned in your video, presumably mainly from one large customer.

我的第一個問題是，Christophe，您在影片中提到，您是否看到由人工智慧推動的對 EUV Logic 的強勁需求，大概主要來自一個大客戶。

How do you think about the capacity of 2 nano given it's going to be potentially a very significant node?

鑑於 2 奈米可能是一個非常重要的節點，您如何看待 2 奈米的容量？

Could we see a front-loaded capacity build in a way that '25 will be a big build to prepare for '26?

我們是否會看到前期產能建設，以便 2025 年大規模建設，為 2026 年做好準備？

So in other words, I mean, how do you think about the phasing of this strong node as first year could be bigger and then you add on a bit less in 2027?

換句話說，我的意思是，您如何看待這個強節點的分階段發展，因為第一年可能會更大，然後在 2027 年增加得少一點？

Or is it going to be really a granular buildup?

還是它真的會變成顆粒狀的堆積物？

Well, I think, Francois, as you know, we don't have the details of our customer ramp fully.

嗯，弗朗索瓦，正如你所知，我認為我們並不完全了解客戶的成長細節。

I think we don't see any strange pattern in the ramps.

我認為我們沒有在坡道上看到任何奇怪的圖案。

I think we shared in the past, the ramp is definitely starting in '25.

我想我們過去曾分享過，坡道肯定是從'25年開始的。

We'll extend into '26, most probably into 2027, in fact, with potentially a mix of 2-nanometer and some node.

我們將延續到2026年，事實上，最有可能是2027年，可能混合使用2奈米和一些節點。

That's what we see, so no abnormal pattern.

這就是我們所看到的，因此沒有異常模式。

The other thing we mentioned in our commentary is we see that maybe there is an opportunity to ramp a bit faster if the demand remains strong.

我們在評論中提到的另一件事是，我們認為，如果需求保持強勁，也許有機會加快速度。

So I think that's another discussion we're having with the advanced Logic customer.

所以我認為這是我們與高級邏輯客戶進行的另一場討論。

But I think we don't see any pattern that you described.

但我認為我們沒有看到您所描述的任何模式。

And Francois, this was actually also confirmed by CCA on the call that they had.

弗朗索瓦，CCA 在電話中也證實了這一點。

So he made specific comments on the ramp profile of that, too.

因此他也對該坡道輪廓提出了具體的評論。

So you might want to refer to that as well.

因此您可能也想參考一下。

Yeah, what Christophe just said.

是的，克里斯托夫剛才說了。

I was wondering on the litho maybe, given the lead times.

考慮到交貨時間，我可能對平版印刷術感到疑惑。

But I mean, as I've said, that's totally fair.

但我的意思是，正如我所說的，這是完全公平的。

The second question is, I mean, AI is very strong; although, I mean, the market might have some doubts in the recent days.

第二個問題是，我的意思是，人工智慧非常強大；儘管，我的意思是，最近幾天市場可能會有一些疑慮。

I'm not going to ask you the impact on DeepSeek on the demand for AI.

我不會問你DeepSeek對AI需求的影響。

But you described some upside on the AI potential if we get the capacity in the second half or if the demand still remains strong.

但是，如果我們在下半年獲得產能或需求仍然強勁，您描述了人工智慧的一些上升潛力。

But similarly, I mean, if you look at the iPhone, which -- or Apple or iPhone, which supposedly is a very significant part of your demand on the leading-edge nodes, do you think it's -- AI is big enough to offset some downside in the -- if we see downside on the iPhone, at least in the short term?

但同樣，我的意思是，如果你看看 iPhone，或者蘋果或 iPhone，這應該是你對前沿節點需求的一個非常重要的部分，你認為人工智慧是否足以抵消那麼，如果我們看到iPhone 存在一些缺點，至少在短期內是如此嗎？

Because in the long term, you discussed at your CMD that it's neutralizing.

因為從長遠來看，您在 CMD 中討論過它具有中和作用。

But I was more wondering in the short term, so '25, '26, dynamic of high AI and hence, slower smartphones?

但我更想知道短期內，25、26 年高人工智慧的動態會如何，因此智慧型手機速度會更慢嗎？

Well, I think in the short term, I think that we tried to explain also with the upside.

嗯，我認為在短期內，我們也試著用好的方面來解釋。

So I think that the demand is strong to really drive, I would say, the utilization of whatever capacity will be built initially on advanced Logic.

所以我認為，需求非常強勁，真正推動了先進邏輯上最初建立的任何容量的利用。

I think, by the way, this will not be fully or so mostly dedicated to AI.

順便說一句，我認為這不會完全或主要致力於人工智慧。

So I think, yes, the rest of the market is not doing spectacular, but it's still there.

所以我認為，是的，其餘市場的表現並不出色，但它仍然存在。

I think that I will also refer to the TSMC call, where they were pointing also for the first time to some recovery on mobile.

我想我也會參考台積電的電話會議，他們在電話中也首次指出行動業務將會出現一些復甦。

So I think nothing is spectacular there.

所以我認為那裡沒有什麼特別的。

But as you go through the ramp and you know that the ramp will build up capacity over time, so you don't get the peak capacity before quite a bit, I think -- we think this part is solid at this point of time.

但是當你通過坡道時，你知道坡道會隨著時間的推移而增加容量，所以你不會在相當長一段時間之前達到峰值容量，我想 - 我們認為這個部分在此時是穩固的。

So we see more upside than risk, at least with all the elements we have at hand.

因此，至少從我們掌握的所有因素來看，我們認為上行空間大於風險。

Krish Sankar, TD Cowen.

克里什·桑卡爾（Krish Sankar），TD Cowen。

Christophe or Roger, the first question on the decline in China sales from [47%] in September to 27% in December.

Christophe 或 Roger，第一個問題是關於中國銷售額從 9 月的 [47%] 下降到 12 月的 27% 。

Is that all a function of digestion by Chinese customers?

這都是中國顧客的消化功能嗎？

Since I'm assuming that the incremental export control rules did not impact your last quarter, so I'm curious, when do you expect this digestion to probably meet a steady state or like bottom out?

因為我假設增量出口管制規則不會影響您上個季度的表現，所以我很好奇，您預計這種消化什麼時候會達到穩定狀態或觸底？

Yeah.

是的。

I think, Krish, we were already signaling in Q3, I think, that this trend might happen.

我認為，克里什，我們在第三季就已經發出訊號，表明這種趨勢可能會發生。

And I repeat what I just said on China.

我重複一下剛才關於中國所說的話。

I think this is -- the main reason why we're looking at a normalized percentage for China is the reason that I gave before.

我認為這就是——我們關注中國標準化百分比的主要原因，我之前已經給出過原因。

So yes, export controls are a part of that, but the lion's share of the reason for the normalization of the demand is what I have said earlier, which is that the eating into the backlog that was built up all the way through '22 is now coming to an end.

所以是的，出口管制是其中的一部分，但需求正常化的主要原因是我之前說過的，也就是在 2022 年之前累積的積壓訂單被蠶食。

And now, we're really seeing a normalize pattern.

現在，我們確實看到了正常化模式。

Got it.

知道了。

And then there's a question on Memory.

然後有一個關於記憶的問題。

You said that this year, Logic could be up, but Memory flattish.

您說今年邏輯可能會上漲，但記憶體可能會持平。

On the Memory front, you're more exposed to DRAM than NAND and you keep hearing on HBM capacity increase, but it seems like you're not seeing better DRAM dynamics this year.

在記憶體方面，您對 DRAM 的了解比 NAND 更多，並且您不斷聽到有關 HBM 容量增加的消息，但似乎今年您沒有看到更好的 DRAM 動態。

Can you just tell us a little bit about what you're seeing in the Memory ecosystem?

您能否向我們簡單介紹一下您在記憶體生態系統中看到的情況？

Well, I think you almost summarized it in your question.

嗯，我認為你的問題幾乎已經總結了這一點。

I think that high-bandwidth memory is driving, today, I would say also, an aggressive capacity addition, at least for some of the customer.

我認為，今天高頻寬記憶體正在推動大規模的容量增加，至少對於部分客戶而言是如此。

I think on the normal DRAM, I would say my comment is similar to the one on mobile photology before.

我認為，關於普通 DRAM，我的評論與之前關於移動光學的評論類似。

I think they're also nothing spectacular, but there is some recovery which also called for more capacity.

我認為它們也沒有什麼特別之處，但有些復甦也需要更多的產能。

So that's why we still DRAM pretty strong in 2025.

這就是為什麼我們在 2025 年 DRAM 仍然相當強勁。

Chris Caso, Wolfe Research.

克里斯‧卡索（Chris Caso），沃爾夫研究公司。

I guess -- and as I listen to you this morning, it sounds like a situation perhaps similar to how you started out last year, and correct me if I'm wrong, with some pretty good backlog coverage to start the year.

我想——當我今天早上聽你說話時，聽起來情況可能與你去年年初的情況類似，如果我錯了，請糾正我，今年年初有一些相當不錯的積壓工作覆蓋。

And last year, there were some changes in that backlog [middle year], so I understand your prudence.

去年，積壓訂單發生了一些變化，因此我理解你的謹慎。

I guess, one, is that an accurate depiction of what we're seeing here?

我想，首先，這是我們在這裡看到的情況的準確描述嗎？

And then secondly, what are the plausible things that we should be watching for and concerned about that would justify the lower end of guidance?

其次，我們應該關注和擔心哪些合理的事情，以證明指引下限是合理的？

Is it export control restrictions?

是出口管制限制嗎？

Is it China?

是中國嗎？

Is it perhaps some of the concerns about AI?

這或許是人們對人工智慧的一些擔憂？

What are some of the scenarios which would point you to the lower end?

哪些情景會讓你走向更低端？

Let me take the first part, and then Christophe can look at the second part.

讓我先看第一部分，然後克里斯托夫可以看第二部分。

I'm not entirely sure I follow your logic on that we are today where we were a year ago.

我不能完全確定我是否理解你的邏輯，即我們今天的處境與一年前相同。

And also, I would point out that a year ago, we gave a guidance that I think we pretty much nailed during the year, right?

而且，我想指出的是，一年前，我們給了一個指導方針，我認為我們在當年基本上已經確定了這個指導方針，對嗎？

So I think we delivered last year on -- exactly on the guidance that we provided in the year.

所以我認為，我們去年的業績完全符合我們當年提供的指導方針。

The reason why I think the situation is also not comparable is because last year, we started the year saying we think this year will be comparable to 2023.

我之所以認為情況無法比較，是因為去年年初我們說過，我們認為今年的情況將與 2023 年相當。

I think this year, we started the year with a clear growth perspective at the midpoint, somewhere around 15%.

我認為，今年我們以明確的成長前景開始新的一年，中點成長約為 15%。

So I don't think the situation is similar.

所以我不認為情況類似。

Yes, we have a strong backlog.

是的，我們有大量積壓訂單。

Yes, we had a strong order intake in the last -- quarter last.

是的，我們上個季度的訂單量很大。

But I think Christophe discussed it on the call, and he will provide the color and context now.

但我認為克里斯托夫在電話中討論過這個問題，他現在將提供具體情況和背景。

We see a clear path within that guidance.

我們在該指導中看到了一條清晰的道路。

Maybe you can provide the color.

也許您可以提供顏色。

Yeah.

是的。

And I think on the low end, I think even Roger mentioned it already.

我認為在低端，我認為甚至羅傑已經提到了這一點。

I mean, we have seen last year -- this was one of the highlight of Q3.

我的意思是，我們已經看到去年——這是第三季的亮點之一。

We've seen major push out of some of the capacity for some of the customers.

我們看到部分客戶的產能大幅下降。

I think through our guidance this year, we see that this risk is a lot lower in terms of volume.

我認為，透過我們今年的指導，我們發現從數量上看，這種風險要低得多。

But I think Roger said it, that's always possible.

但我認為羅傑說過，這總是有可能的。

So I think we are very transparent that -- we share with you the fact that if we look at the total dynamic that some of those pushout may not be completely excluded, that's for the final range.

因此，我認為我們非常透明——我們與你們分享這樣一個事實，如果我們看一下總體動態，其中一些推出可能不會被完全排除，這是最終的範圍。

So I think that's not more than that, I would say.

所以我認為，不會超過這個程度。

Geopolitics, we also mentioned that.

地緣政治，我們也提到了這一點。

There, it's even more difficult, of course, to quantify because we just had new export control being released.

當然，要量化這一點更加困難，因為我們剛剛發布了新的出口管制措施。

So there's no expectation of anything on our side, but this is also -- out of experience, this call a bit for prudence on our side.

因此，我們對此不抱持任何期望，但這也是──根據經驗，我們需要謹慎一點。

So that's a bit what we try to reflect in the lower hand of the guidance, not more than that.

所以這就是我們試圖在指導的下半部分反映的內容，僅此而已。

Sure.

當然。

That's very helpful context.

這是非常有用的信息。

The inevitable follow-on to that is how that affects the view for '26.

不可避免的是，這將如何影響 26 年的觀點。

And given the lead times and the customer forecast, I imagine you have some degree of visibility now, although it's very early.

考慮到交貨時間和客戶預測，我想您現在已經有了一定程度的了解，儘管現在還為時過早。

At this point, would expect '26 to be a growth year?

現在，您是否預計 26 年將成為成長之年？

And what are the variables that you're thinking about with regard to '26?

關於‘26’，您考慮的變數是什麼？

Yeah, Chris, that's as much as we said.

是的，克里斯，我們說的就這麼多。

We are looking at '26 as a potential growth year for ASML.

我們認為 26 年將是 ASML 具有潛在成長的一年。

That's how we look at it, but it is exactly as we said.

我們就是這樣看待它的，但它確實正如我們所說的那樣。

It's way too early to provide any direction or magnitude on that.

現在對此給出任何方向或幅度都還為時過早。

Didier Scemama, Bank of America.

美國銀行的迪迪埃·斯凱瑪（Didier Scemama）。

I wanted to go back to the order intake in EUV and DUV, so maybe first on DUV.

我想回到 EUV 和 DUV 的訂單情況，所以也許首先是 DUV。

Can you maybe just help us understand how much of the DUV orders was related to the EUV capacity build for the non-critical layers, e.g., non-China, or any color you can give us?

您能否幫助我們了解有多少 DUV 訂單與非關鍵層（例如非中國）的 EUV 產能建設有關，或者您可以給我們任何具體資訊？

And I have a follow-up on the EUV order breakout.

我對 EUV 訂單進度進行了追蹤。

Yeah.

是的。

We typically don't disclose that, Didier.

我們通常不會透露這一點，迪迪埃。

No, we don't break down between customers or between regions.

不，我們不會根據客戶或地區進行細分。

But a significant part of the Deep UV order intake for the quarter was indeed related to larger customers and for larger customers for the non-critical layers, as you mentioned it.

但正如您所說，本季 Deep UV 訂單量的很大一部分確實與較大的客戶以及非關鍵層的較大客戶有關。

But I'm not -- we're not putting a percentage on that.

但我沒有--我們沒有對此進行百分比計算。

Perfect.

完美的。

That's good to hear that it's confirmed.

很高興聽到這個消息得到證實。

On the EUV order intake, obviously, largely driven by foundry logic or I think you said 50-50 perhaps earlier on.

對於 EUV 訂單量來說，顯然很大程度上是由代工廠邏輯驅動的，或者我認為你之前說過可能是 50-50。

On the DRAM side and on the foundry side, any color you can give?

在 DRAM 方面和代工方面，您能提供什麼資訊嗎？

So obviously, on the foundry side, you've got three major customers.

顯然，在代工方面，你有三個主要客戶。

On the DRAM side, you've got three major customers.

在 DRAM 方面，您有三個主要客戶。

Can you just -- obviously, you can't discuss the various customers' health.

你能不能——顯然，你不能討論不同顧客的健康狀況。

But is there any change with regards to the trajectory of the various buckets, e.g., is there any bucket looking a bit better?

但是，各個桶的軌跡是否有任何變化，例如，是否有哪個桶看起來更好？

It looks like DRAM is looking a bit better, given the diversity of the customers in there.

考慮到客戶的多樣性，DRAM 的情況似乎要好一些。

Maybe foundry not changing very much, but would be much more interesting to hear in your views.

也許鑄造廠不會發生太大的變化，但聽聽您的意見會更有趣。

Well, I think -- we're looking at each other because I don't know which one of us have to tell you first that -- well, these aren't the type of detail we share because we would be even adding speculation on some of the market situation.

嗯，我想——我們面面相覷，因為我不知道我們中的誰應該先告訴你——嗯，這些不是我們分享的細節，因為我們甚至會增加猜測關於一些市場的情況。

So the only thing we say is, again, no major change compared to what we have discussed in the previous quarter.

因此，我們唯一要說的是，與上一季討論的內容相比，沒有重大變化。

That will be my input to that question.

這就是我對這個問題的回答。

Okay.

好的。

Well, I'll allow myself to a follow-up then.

好吧，那我就允許自己進行後續跟進。

Fair enough.

很公平。

I don't blame you for trying, right?

我不會責怪你的嘗試，對吧？

You know French people.

你認識法國人。

No, on High NA, just maybe give us a little bit of insight into that third shipment.

不，關於 High NA，您能不能提供我們一些關於第三批貨物的資訊？

Is that for a North American customer or is that also for maybe a Taiwanese or Korean customer?

這是針對北美客戶還是也針對台灣或韓國客戶？

That would be helpful.

那將會很有幫助。

I think we said it's not for the North American customer, but we have not said and will not say where it went.

我想我們說過它不適合北美客戶，但我們沒有說也不會說它會去哪裡。

But (inaudible) the first two.

但（聽不清楚）前兩個。

I've tried.

我試過了。

You did.

你做到了。

C.J. Muse, Cantor Fitzgerald.

C.J. Muse、領唱者費茲傑拉。

I guess first question, in the video, when you discussed your 2025 outlook, you talked about, obviously, AI supporting the high-end; other markets, low end.

我想第一個問題是，在影片中，當您討論 2025 年的展望時，您顯然談到了 AI 支援高端；其他市場，低端。

I would have thought you would have completely derisked other markets.

我原本以為你會完全降低其他市場的風險。

So can you touch on the level of derisking embedded in your assumptions for those customers where you've seen pushouts to '26?

那麼，您能否談談您對那些已經推遲到26年的客戶的假設中所包含的風險降低程度？

And for the high end, is there sufficient clean room space at those foundry and HBM customers to actually take tools by the Q4 time frame?

對於高端產品，這些代工廠和 HBM 客戶是否有足夠的無塵室空間來在第四季度之前實際接收工具？

Yeah.

是的。

I think -- on the first part, I think Roger indicated.

我認為——關於第一部分，我認為羅傑已經指出了。

When it comes to booking, I think that mostly, we have derisked the large part of EUV.

當談到預訂時，我認為基本上我們已經降低了 EUV 的大部分風險。

So the risk -- I think I'm going to repeat myself on this one, but the risk is just on some potential pushout.

因此風險——我想我要重複一遍，但風險只是一些潛在的延遲。

I think that's what it is.

我認為事實就是這樣。

So we're just a bit cautious based again on some of the experience we all went through last year.

因此，根據去年我們經歷的一些經驗，我們再次顯得有些謹慎。

That's the first part to your question.

這是你問題的第一部分。

The second part, I think that's the right question.

第二部分，我認為這是正確的問題。

I think -- most probably, today, we're looking at opportunity to get more clean room space.

我認為——最有可能的是，今天我們正在尋找獲得更多潔淨室空間的機會。

I think that's what we mean by building up additional capacity.

我想這就是我們所說的建立額外產能。

And if this is possible and if this happened, then we can most probably put some of our tools there.

如果這是可能的並且如果發生了，那麼我們很可能就會把一些工具放在那裡。

But that's exactly what we're looking at with our customers.

但這正是我們為客戶所關注的。

Very helpful.

非常有幫助。

And I guess as a follow-up, you talked about the ongoing shift led by AI across HPC and HBM.

我想作為後續，您談到了 AI 在 HPC 和 HBM 領域所引領的持續轉變。

I'm curious, in your discussions with your customers across both those fronts, can you comment on what you're seeing in terms of EUV layer counts, whether it's A16 or whether it's going HBM3, 4, et cetera?

我很好奇，在您與這兩個方面的客戶的討論中，您能否評論一下您在 EUV 層數方面看到的情況，無論是 A16 還是 HBM3、4 等等？

I would love to hear your thoughts on the trajectory there.

我很想聽聽你對那裡軌跡的看法。

Let me try to explain that in November.

讓我在十一月份嘗試解釋這一點。

So the need for high-power computer, the need for high-bandwidth memory, so basically the AI-driven chips, are more demanding when it comes to advanced phase.

因此，對高功率電腦、高頻寬記憶體的需求，以及基本上人工智慧驅動的晶片的需求，在高階階段的要求更高。

And I think what we said is we see those new products most recalling for a bit of an acceleration of Moore's Law and therefore, a customer being more aggressive when it comes to technology transition.

我認為我們所說的是，我們看到這些新產品最能反映摩爾定律的加速，因此，客戶在技術轉型方面會更積極。

I think in some extent, you see a bit of that already with 2-nanometer and most probably what will come after that.

我認為，在某種程度上，你在 2 奈米技術中已經看到了一些這樣的情況，並且很可能看到了 2 奈米技術之後會出現的情況。

And I think we also said in November that historically, this has always driven more demand for advanced litho.

我認為我們在 11 月也說過，從歷史上看，這始終會推動對先進光刻技術的更多需求。

That's, of course, part of the discussion we are having as we speak with our customers.

當然，這是我們與客戶交談時討論的內容的一部分。

So part of the shift we see, I think that's one that we describe as a positive one for us back in November.

因此，我們看到的轉變的一部分，我認為這是我們在 11 月描述的對我們來說是積極的轉變。

And I think when it comes to the trend, the trend is there.

我認為，當談到趨勢時，趨勢就是存在的。

And well, you're asking a very detailed question on future node.

嗯，您問了一個關於未來節點的非常詳細的問題。

We don't have the detailed answer yet, but the trend is definitely there.

目前我們還沒有詳細的答案，但這種趨勢肯定存在。

Andrew Gardiner, Citi.

花旗銀行的安德魯‧加德納 (Andrew Gardiner)。

I had another one on the customer visibility side of things.

我還有另外一個關於客戶視覺性方面的事情。

It's encouraging, obviously, to see that you finished 2024 strongly in terms of orders.

顯然，看到您在 2024 年的訂單方面取得強勁成績是令人鼓舞的。

But if I look at 2024 overall, you've had a fairly low level of orders from the Logic community, lowest since 2020.

但如果我整體看 2024 年，來自 Logic 社群的訂單水準相當低，是 2020 年以來最低的。

Now I understand the multiple reasons why it's been weak in recent quarters.

現在我了解了最近幾季表現疲軟的多種原因。

So really, I'm interested in a more forward-looking view.

所以實際上我對更具前瞻性的觀點感興趣。

You've already explained that 2025 is essentially fully booked.

您已經解釋過，2025 年基本上已經預訂滿了。

But as I look to 2026, assuming growth, as you've described loosely, Roger, it's something like 30% to 40% booked for next year, depending on one's assumptions.

但是當我展望 2026 年時，假設出現增長，正如羅傑您所大致描述的那樣，明年的預訂量大約為 30% 到 40%，具體取決於個人的假設。

So then if I think of your lead times and the points you were making about the stated customer plans for their CapEx, the 2-nanometer migration, and in particular, the high-volume ramp in the first part of next year, don't you need to see order commitments come in for EUV over the first half of this year in order to be able to meet those customer needs on time?

那麼，如果我考慮到你的交貨時間和你提到的客戶資本支出計劃、2 納米遷移，特別是明年上半年的大批量生產，你不會您是否需要在今年上半年看到EUV 的訂單承諾，以便能夠準時滿足客戶的需求？

Yeah, Andrew, I think that's fair.

是的，安德魯，我認為這很公平。

So we should be seeing order intake in the first two quarters, particularly when it comes to EUV.

因此我們應該會在前兩個季度看到訂單量，特別是 EUV 方面的訂單量。

I think that would be logical.

我認為這是合乎邏輯的。

As Christophe described, we do have flexibility obviously in our -- in the way we approach 2026.

正如克里斯托夫所描述的，我們在應對 2026 年挑戰的方式上顯然具有靈活性。

So we do have flexibility in our supply chain and also manufacturing capability.

因此，我們的供應鏈和製造能力確實具有彈性。

So it's not like at a certain point in time, that's where the music stops.

所以，這並不意味著在某個時間點音樂就停止了。

But definitely, we should continue to see good order intake in the first two quarters.

但可以肯定的是，我們應該繼續看到前兩個季度的良好訂單量。

I think that's a fair assumption.

我認為這是一個合理的假設。

I mean, related to your answer there, Roger, the strategy of prebuilding, is that continuing?

我的意思是，羅傑，與你的回答相關，預先建立的策略還在繼續嗎？

Have you changed that at all given the shift in customer dynamics we've seen over the last six to nine months?

鑑於過去六到九個月我們看到的客戶動態變化，你們對此有何改變？

So we're doing this also, Andrew, to make sure that we have a level loading of our factory, right -- and that's one -- and second, in order to create sufficient flexibility for us.

因此，安德魯，我們也這樣做，以確保我們工廠的負荷水平，對吧——這是第一個——其次，為了給我們創造足夠的靈活性。

So we're reviewing that.

因此我們正在審查這一點。

We're obviously reviewing that based on the latest insights that we get from customers.

我們顯然會根據從客戶那裡獲得的最新見解來審查這一點。

I reiterate that the ongoing discussions that we have with customers rather than just appeals.

我重申我們與客戶正在進行的討論而不僅僅是上訴。

And based on what we get there and based on the insights that we get there for this year and for next year, that also determines what our prebuild strategy is.

根據我們在那裡取得的成果以及對今年和明年的洞察，我們也決定了我們的預建策略。

But we -- that is an option that we continue to have and that we continue to use in order to better optimize the loading of the factory.

但是我們——這是我們繼續擁有的選擇，我們會繼續使用這個選擇，以便更好地優化工廠的負載。

Mehdi Hosseini, SIG.

Mehdi Hosseini，SIG。

Two follow-ups.

兩次後續行動。

Roger, can you give me an update where we are with the throughput for NXE:3800E, where is it today, and how are you going to close the year?

羅傑，您能否更新一下 NXE:3800E 的產量狀況，目前產量如何，您打算如何結束這一年？

And then for the team, I want to better understand how you're planning internal capacity, especially looking beyond the 2025.

對於團隊來說，我想更了解您如何規劃內部容量，尤其是展望 2025 年以後。

When we had a strong cycle a couple of years ago, your backlog was in the $40 billion range.

幾年前，當我們處於強勁的周期時，您的積壓訂單量約為 400 億美元。

Do you see more flexibility with your capacity to bringing the lead times down, especially with higher EUV mix and concentration of customers?

您是否認為您在縮短交貨時間方面具有更大的靈活性，尤其是在 EUV 組合和客戶集中度更高的情況下？

Or would you be more prudent and try to build a longer backlog?

或者你會更加謹慎並嘗試建立更長的積壓時間？

I'm just trying to understand and balance your internal planning for the next couple of years versus your ability to get customers committed, especially given there's more concentration of customers for EUV.

我只是試著了解並平衡您未來幾年的內部規劃與獲得客戶承諾的能力，特別是考慮到 EUV 的客戶集中度更高。

Yeah, Mehdi.

是的，梅赫迪。

So on the throughput, the systems that we shipped in last year were all on a -- were on a better throughput than the throughput of the 3600 but not yet at the maximum throughput.

因此，就吞吐量而言，我們去年交付的系統的吞吐量都比 3600 的吞吐量要好，但尚未達到最大吞吐量。

That maximum throughput has been demonstrated, and we're now in the process of rolling that out.

最大吞吐量已得到證明，我們現在正在推廣這項功能。

So the newer tools that we're now shipping to customers will gradually meet that specification.

因此，我們現在向客戶運送的新工具將逐步滿足該規格。

For the tools that have been installed with the customers, we're going to make sure that in the course of this year that those tools also meet at higher expectations.

對於已經為客戶安裝的工具，我們將確保今年這些工具也能滿足更高的期望。

So therefore, you will continue to see also us reporting on the improvement and also the revenue that we recognize from the fact that we get those higher throughputs achieved with customers and also get recognized for that.

因此，您將繼續看到我們報告改進情況以及我們透過與客戶一起實現更高的產量並獲得認可而實現的收入。

So that's the status.

這就是現狀。

So the [220] has been demonstrated now in the process of rolling that out for the new tools and also exporting that to the 3800s that are currently in the field.

因此，[220] 現在已經在為新工具推出的過程中進行了演示，並將其匯出到目前在現場的 3800 中。

In terms of capacity beyond 2025, the key thing that we're doing is to make sure that we -- what we call is the long lead time items, that they are in place, i.e., that we have the flexibility to respond to higher demands and that we have the long lead time items that we have those in place.

就 2025 年以後的產能而言，我們所做的關鍵事情是確保我們所謂的長期交付專案到位，也就是說，我們能夠靈活地應對更高的需求，並且我們已準備好這些長期交付的專案。

If you look at what we're projecting in terms of growth for the second half of this decade, including what we're projecting for 2030, it's clear that capacity needs to be built, so the infrastructure we have already built, and continue to do that so that the long -- that the infrastructure is in place and that then, with supply chain and with our head count, we can respond once we get the very clear signals from our customers that demand is recovering.

如果你看看我們對本世紀下半葉增長的預測，包括我們對 2030 年的增長預測，很明顯需要建設產能，所以我們已經建成並將繼續建設的基礎設施這樣做的目的是，長期來看，基礎設施已經到位，然後透過供應鏈和員工人數，一旦我們從客戶那裡得到需求正在恢復的明確訊號，我們就可以做出反應。

That's the way we approach it.

這就是我們處理這個問題的方式。

So does that mean that the backlog would be in the 18-month range?

那麼這是否意味著積壓時間將在 18 個月左右？

Or would you be -- are we going to go back to like '22, '23 when backlog was extended due to supply constraints?

還是你會 — — 我們會回到 22、23 年那樣，當時由於供應限製而導致積壓延長？

No, that would not be -- I think a normal backlog is ultimately what we want to be able to offer to our customers.

不，那不會——我認為正常的積壓訂單最終是我們想要提供給客戶的。

We want to be able to offer to our customers a normal backlog because that will also help them respond to their business.

我們希望能夠為客戶提供正常的積壓訂單，因為這也有助於他們回應業務。

I mean, that's ultimately what you want to get, that customers have a backlog that is and a order lead time that is manageable for them and that allows them to respond in a good and flexible way to their demand fluctuations.

我的意思是，這最終就是你想要得到的，即客戶擁有一定的積壓訂單和可管理的訂單交付週期，並允許他們以良好而靈活的方式應對需求波動。

And that's our ultimate goal.

這就是我們的最終目標。

And that's why we want to be as flexible as we can, and that's why we put in the infrastructure such that we are able to give our customers a normal order lead time.

這就是為什麼我們希望盡可能地靈活，這就是為什麼我們投入了基礎設施，以便能夠為我們的客戶提供正常的訂單交付週期。

That's the objective that we are driving.

這就是我們追求的目標。

Stephane Houri, ODDO BHF.

Stephane Houri，ODDO BHF。

I would like to come back on the guidance for 2025.

我想重新討論一下 2025 年的指導方針。

Last quarter, I think you gave us some elements to rationalize how you could get to the middle of the range.

上個季度，我認為您給了我們一些要素來合理化如何達到中間範圍。

And you gave notably two elements.

您特別提到了兩個元素。

One was on the non-EUV, non-China that was supposed to grow largely by the double digit, let's say, 50%.

一個是非EUV、非中國市場，預期成長幅度將達到兩位數，比方說 50%。

So can you maybe come back on that and confirm if that's still what you expect?

那麼您能否再回過頭來確認一下這是否仍然是您所期望的？

And the second element was about the Installed Base Management revenue that you said could be at about EUR7.5 billion.

第二個要素是關於安裝基礎管理收入，您說這個收入可能達到約 75 億歐元。

But if you take the first quarter where you guide for EUR2.1 billion, it gives a run rate, if you multiply it by four, of much bigger than EUR7.5 billion, EUR8.4 billion or EUR8.5 billion, so EUR1 billion above.

但如果你以第一季預計的 21 億歐元計算，那麼如果將其乘以四，其運行率將遠高於 75 億歐元、84 億歐元或 85 億歐元，因此 1十億以上。

So is there any seasonality we should have in mind about Installed Base Management?

那麼，在考慮安裝基礎管理時我們是否應該考慮季節性？

So let's take the last one first.

我們先討論最後一個。

So the EUR7.5 billion, that's the number that we still include in our guidance.

因此，75 億歐元是我們仍包含在指導範圍內的數字。

And of course, over the quarters, you've also seen that last year, there can be some fluctuation.

當然，您也已經看到，在去年的各個季度中，可能會出現一些波動。

To a very large extent, that's dependent on upgrades.

在很大程度上，這取決於升級。

So that fluctuates from one quarter to the other.

因此，不同季度之間的波動是不同的。

I would also say you know that our visibility into the upgrade is, of course, less than the service business.

我還想說，你知道我們對升級的了解當然低於服務業務。

But I think for now, I would encourage you to still use the EUR7.5 billion as the right number.

但我認為就目前而言，我鼓勵您仍然使用 75 億歐元作為正確數字。

When it comes to the non-China, non-EUV business, I think you mentioned 50%.

當談到非中國、非 EUV 業務時，我認為您提到了 50%。

I think that's on the higher end.

我認為這已經是較高水準了。

I think that's a little higher than what I had in my model when we were having the conversation.

我認為這比我們談話時我的模型中的數字要高一點。

So 50% is a little too high, I think.

所以我認為 50% 有點太高了。

I think you probably want to -- I think we said it's on par with what you would see in the EUV business, and that would get you to approximately 40% increase.

我想你可能想 - 我認為我們說過它與你在 EUV 業務中看到的水平相當，並且會給你帶來大約 40％ 的增長。

And that's where I think you're going to land.

我認為你就將到達那裡。

It did not change, right?

沒有變化吧？

What was that?

那是什麼？

No, it's not a change.

不，這不是改變。

That's

這就是

--

--

It has not changed?

沒有變化嗎？

Okay.

好的。

No, that has not changed.

不，這一點沒有改變。

That is still consistent with the analysis that we provided after Q3.

這與我們第三季後提供的分析仍然一致。

Michael Roeg, Degroof Petercam.

麥可‧羅格 (Michael Roeg)，Degroof Petercam。

Can I ask a question about one of your slides from the Investor Day 2024?

我可以就 2024 年投資者日的一張投影片問一個問題嗎？

We'll do our best.

我們會盡力。

Okay.

好的。

Well, now you're still laughing.

嗯，現在你還在笑。

It's the presentation by Mr. Harchandani, slide number 13; and that is the slide with the seven end markets and the total semiconductor sales.

這是 Harchandani 先生的演示文稿，幻燈片編號為 13；這是七個終端市場和半導體總銷售額的幻燈片。

I'm sure you'll be able to visualize that one, correct?

我確信你能夠想像這一點，對嗎？

I have it in mind.

我記住了。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Okay, good.

好的，很好。

Well, first of all, it's a pity that you no longer show the historical data, which you did in the past.

嗯，首先，很遺憾您不再顯示歷史數據，而過去您曾顯示過歷史數據。

So now, my whole model is missing a few years.

所以現在，我的整個模型缺少了幾年。

But now my question is the following.

但現在我的問題如下。

Do you believe that your customers will be able to generate EUR1 trillion in sales in 2030?

您是否相信您的客戶到 2030 年將能夠創造 1 兆歐元的銷售額？

It's not our customers, right?

這不是我們的客戶，對吧？

When you talk about the semiconductor industry, there's (inaudible) for customers.

當您談到半導體行業時，對於客戶來說，（聽不清楚）。

And that is precisely the answer I want to hear.

這正是我想要聽到的答案。

Because the Gartner market definition doesn't represent your customers.

因為 Gartner 市場定義並不代表您的客戶。

It represents your customers, the IDMs; and the fabless companies that are customers of your foundry customers.

它代表您的客戶，即 IDM；以及作為您的代工客戶的客戶的無晶圓廠公司。

However, if I look at the seven end markets, then my perception is that the difference between vendor sales and manufacturer sales, which is a huge gap for the total market -- that the difference is biggest for smartphone and data center because that's where the IDNs have the smallest positions.

然而，如果我看一下這七個終端市場，那麼我的看法是，供應商銷售額和製造商銷售額之間的差異，對於整個市場來說是一個巨大的差距——智慧型手機和資料中心的差異最大，因為這是IDN 的位置最小。

So you've changed all your scenarios with data center scenarios going up, most other markets scenarios going down, which obviously looks great.

因此，您改變了所有場景，資料中心場景上升，大多數其他市場場景下降，這顯然看起來很棒。

But from a manufacturer perspective, I don't know if anything has changed, actually.

但從製造商的角度來看，我實際上不知道是否有什麼變化。

To be honest, I think you're losing a bit of the audience here.

說實話，我覺得你正在失去一些觀眾。

And you're looking at a slide that no one else is looking at.

而你正在看的幻燈片別人都沒有看。

So I would suggest that we have a follow-on conversation on this topic.

因此我建議我們就此主題進行後續討論。

Perfect, perfect.

完美，完美。

However, you know what I'm talking about.

但是，你知道我在說什麼。

I'm surprised that everybody keeps showing the Gartner data, which are not a reflection of the equipment customers.

我很驚訝每個人都在展示 Gartner 數據，但這些數據並不能反映設備客戶的情況。

Yeah.

是的。

I appreciate it, but I think we have the right follow-up actually.

我對此表示感謝，但我認為我們實際上採取了正確的後續行動。

Let's take it offline.

讓我們將其離線。

Then two -- one tiny follow-up then, a whole different topic.

接下來是兩個小小的後續問題，一個完全不同的主題。

That's on the -- you will no longer show the quarterly bookings is perhaps a 12-month rolling booking figure, something that would be smoothing out all those lumpy intakes.

這是因為——您將不再顯示季度預訂量，而是顯示 12 個月的滾動預訂量，這可以平滑所有這些不均勻的攝入量。

To be honest, I think a backlog per annum gets you awfully close to that, right?

老實說，我認為每年的積壓訂單已經非常接近這個數字了，對嗎？

Because if you have the backlog and you have the sales numbers for the quarter, I think it doesn't take you too much to recalculate that.

因為如果您有積壓訂單，並且有該季度的銷售數據，我認為重新計算並不需要花費太多時間。

So I think by

所以我認為

(inaudible)

（聽不清楚）

We will only see it once a year, don't we?

我們每年只能看到一次，不是嗎？

Yes, you do.

是的，你需要。

And I think as I explained before, we believe that's an important data point for you, and it's good enough.

我認為正如我之前解釋的那樣，我們相信這對您來說是一個重要的數據點，而且它足夠好。

We'll take it offline.

我們將使其下線。

And then more questions about these slides will be in the next quarter and the one after because I've got many more questions.

關於這些投影片的更多問題將在下個季度和下個季度出現，因為我還有更多問題。

Okay.

好的。

We've got time for one last question.

我們還有時間回答最後一個問題。

If you've been unable to get through on this call and still have questions, please feel free to contact ASML Investor Relations with your questions.

如果您無法接通本次電話且仍有疑問，請隨時聯絡 ASML 投資者關係部諮詢您的問題。

Now operator, can we have the last caller, please?

接線生，請問我們可以接聽最後一位來電嗎？

Sandeep Deshpande, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的 Sandeep Deshpande。

I have a quick question as a follow-up on High NA.

我有一個簡單的問題作為 High NA 的後續問題。

Christophe, you talked to a response to earlier question that you will know in 12 to 18 months the timing of the insertion of High NA.

克里斯托夫，您在回答先前的問題時說過，您將在 12 到 18 個月內知道插入高 NA 的時間。

But in terms of your backlog, I believe you already do have High NA tools in your backlog for shipment in 2026.

但就您的積壓訂單而言，我相信您已經積壓了高 NA 工具，並將於 2026 年發貨。

So how do you put the two and two together that you will know whether the customer is going to use these tools in high-volume manufacturing, only later in the year or next year, but you're already possibly building these tools for the customer?

那麼你如何將兩者結合起來，你才能知道客戶是否會在大批量生產中使用這些工具，只是在今年晚些時候或明年，但你可能已經為客戶製造了這些工具？

So is there a risk to the customer (inaudible) at the end of the year that, well, actually, we're not going to implement the tools into production next year, and then that these orders don't happen in 2026 which are there in the backlog today?

那麼，到年底，客戶是否會面臨風險（聽不清楚），實際上，我們明年不會將這些工具投入生產，而且這些訂單在 2026 年也不會發生，今天還有哪些積壓工作？

Well, I think -- so you mentioned the backlog.

嗯，我想——所以你提到了積壓問題。

And I think you know that indeed, in our backlog, we have quite a few tools that are not NXE:5000, which was a tool basically planned for R&D.

我想您確實知道，在我們的積壓工作中，有不少工具不是 NXE:5000，NXE:5000 基本上是為研發而設計的工具。

So indeed, our customers have upfront already ordered some 5200, which are tools intended to be used in high-volume manufacturing.

事實上，我們的客戶已經預先訂購了約 5200 台，這些工具旨在用於大量生產。

So it means that the logic of insertion has been there for quite a while.

所以這意味著插入的邏輯已經存在了很長一段時間。

You start with R&D, then you plan for, I would say, a reasonable insertion.

你從研發開始，然後規劃一個合理的插入。

So those tools in the backlog are indeed going to support that.

因此，積壓的那些工具確實會支持這一點。

And I think we look at a few tools per customer, which are sufficient basically to start going.

我認為我們會為每個客戶提供一些工具，這些工具基本上足以開始工作。

And that's what we call usually the first node insertion.

這就是我們通常所說的第一個節點插入。

And after that, of course, when we look at new booking on High NA, we'll be most probably looking at the bigger insertion in the node after that, which is a bit later.

當然，在此之後，當我們查看 High NA 上的新預訂時，我們很可能會在此之後的節點中查看更大的插入，這會稍晚一些。

But the logic you describe is the logic customer put in place together with us already, in fact, a couple of years ago.

但您所描述的邏輯實際上是客戶幾年前就與我們一起制定的邏輯。

And I think they are sticking to that logic today.

我認為他們今天仍然堅持這一邏輯。

All right.

好的。

So now on behalf of ASML, I would like to thank you all for joining us today.

現在，我謹代表 ASML 感謝大家今天的出席。

Operator, if you could formally close the call, that would be much appreciated.

接線員，如果您能正式結束通話，我們將非常感激。

Thank you.

謝謝。

This concludes the ASML 2020 fourth-quarter and full-year financial results conference call.

ASML 2020 年第四季及全年財務業績電話會議到此結束。

Thank you for participating.

感謝您的參與。