台積電 ADR (TSM) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

(foreign language) Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TSMC's Third Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. This is Jeff Su, TSMC's Director of Investor Relations and your host for today.

（外文）大家下午好，歡迎參加台積電2023年第三季財報電話會議。我是台積電投資者關係總監 Jeff Su，也是今天的主持人。

TSMC is hosting our earnings conference call via live audio webcast through the company's website at www.tsmc.com, where you can also download the earnings release materials. (Operator Instructions)

台積電將透過公司網站 www.tsmc.com 透過現場音訊網路直播舉辦我們的財報電話會議，您也可以在該網站下載財報發布資料。 （操作員說明）

The format for today's event will be as follows. First, TSMC's Vice President and CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, will summarize our operations in the third quarter 2023, followed by our guidance for the fourth quarter 2023. Afterwards, Mr. Huang and TSMC CEO, Dr. C. C. Wei, will jointly provide the company's key messages. Then we will open the line for the Q&A.

今天活動的形式如下。首先，台積電副總裁兼財務長黃文德爾先生將總結我們2023年第三季的營運情況，然後是我們對2023年第四季的指導。隨後，黃先生和台積電執行長魏志強博士將共同提供公司的關鍵資訊。然後我們將開通問答熱線。

As usual, I would like to remind everybody that today's discussions may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to differ materially from those contained in the forward-looking statements. Please refer to the safe harbor notice that appears in our press release.

像往常一樣，我想提醒大家，今天的討論可能包含前瞻性陳述，這些陳述存在重大風險和不確定性，這可能導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述中包含的結果有重大差異。請參閱我們新聞稿中的安全港通知。

And now, I would like to turn the call over to TSMC's CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, for the summary of operations and the current quarter guidance.

現在，我想將電話轉給台積電財務長黃文德爾先生，以獲取營運摘要和當前季度指引。

Thank you, Jeff. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. My presentation will start with financial highlights for the third quarter 2023. After that, I will provide the guidance for the fourth quarter 2023.

謝謝你，傑夫。大家下午好。感謝您今天加入我們。我的演講將從 2023 年第三季的財務亮點開始。之後，我將提供 2023 年第四季的指導。

Third quarter revenue increased 13.7% sequentially in NT dollars or 10.2% in U.S. dollars as our third quarter business was supported by the strong ramp of our industry-leading 3-nanometer technology and higher demand for 5-nanometer technologies, partially offset customers' ongoing inventory adjustment. Gross margin increased 0.2 percentage points sequentially to 54.3%, mainly reflecting higher capacity utilization, partially offset by the margin dilution from N3 ramp.

第三季營收以新台幣計算環比成長13.7%，以美元計算環比成長10.2%，因為我們第三季的業務受到業界領先的3 奈米技術的強勁成長和對5 奈米技術的更高需求的支持，部分抵銷了客戶持續成長的影響庫存調整。毛利率較上季成長 0.2 個百分點，達到 54.3%，主要反映了產能利用率的提高，但部分被 N3 產能擴張帶來的利潤稀釋所抵銷。

Total operating expenses accounted for 12.6% of net revenue as compared to 12.1% in the second quarter mainly due to higher R&D expenses to support our 3-nanometer and 2-nanometer development. Operating margin was 41.7%, down 0.3 percentage point from the previous quarter.

總營運費用佔淨收入的 12.6%，而第二季為 12.1%，主要是由於支持我們 3 奈米和 2 奈米開發的研發費用增加。營業利益率為41.7%，較上季下降0.3個百分點。

Overall, our third quarter EPS was TWD 8.14 and ROE was 25.8%.

整體而言，我們第三季 EPS 為新台幣 8.14，ROE 為 25.8%。

Now let's move on to the revenue by technology. 3-nanometer process technology contributed 6% of wafer revenue in the third quarter while 5-nanometer and 7-nanometer accounted for 37% and 16%, respectively. Advanced technologies, defined as 7-nanometer and below, accounted for 59% of wafer revenue.

現在讓我們繼續討論技術收入。 3奈米製程技術佔第三季晶圓收入的6％，而5奈米和7奈米製程技術分別佔37％和16％。 7 奈米及以下的先進技術佔晶圓收入的 59%。

Moving on to revenue contribution by platform. HPC increased 6% quarter-over-quarter to account for 42% of our third quarter revenue. Smartphone increased 33% to account for 39%. IoT increased 24% to account for 9%. Automotive decreased 24% to account for 5%. And DCE decreased 1% to account for 2%.

接下來是平台的營收貢獻。 HPC 環比成長 6%，占我們第三季營收的 42%。智慧型手機成長了 33%，達到 39%。物聯網成長了 24%，佔 9%。汽車產業下降 24%，至 5%。大商所佔比下降1%至2%。

Moving on to the balance sheet. We ended the third quarter with cash and marketable securities of TWD 1.55 trillion or USD 48 billion.

繼續看資產負債表。截至第三季末，我們的現金和有價證券為新台幣 1.55 兆，即 480 億美元。

On the liabilities side, current liabilities increased by TWD 159 billion, mainly due to the increase of TWD 95 billion in accounts payable and the increase of TWD 59 billion in accrued liabilities and others. Long-term interest-bearing debt increased by TWD 30 billion, of which TWD 10 billion from new issuance and TWD 20 billion from foreign exchange rate movement.

負債方面，流動負債增加1,590億元新台幣，主要是應付帳款增加950億元新台幣、應計負債及其他增加590億元新台幣所致。長期有息負債增加300億元，其中新增100億元，匯率變動增加200億元。

On financial ratio, accounts receivable turnover days increased 3 days to 35 days while days of inventory decreased 3 days to 96 days.

財務比率方面，應收帳款週轉天數增加3天至35天，存貨天數減少3天至96天。

Regarding cash flow and CapEx. During the third quarter, we generated about TWD 295 billion in cash from operations, spent TWD 227 billion in CapEx and distributed TWD 71 billion for fourth quarter '22 cash dividend. Overall, our cash balance increased TWD 35 billion to TWD 1.31 trillion at the end of the quarter. In U.S. dollar terms, our third quarter capital expenditures totaled $7.1 billion.

關於現金流和資本支出。第三季度，我們從營運中產生了約 2,950 億新台幣的現金，資本支出為 2,270 億新台幣，並為 22 年第四季度分配了 710 億新台幣的現金股息。總體而言，本季末我們的現金餘額增加了 350 億新台幣，達到 1.31 兆新台幣。以美元計算，我們第三季的資本支出總計 71 億美元。

I have finished my financial summary. Now let's turn to our current quarter guidance. Based on current business outlook, we expect our fourth quarter revenue to be between USD 18.8 billion and USD 19.6 billion, which represents a 11.1% sequential increase at the midpoint. Based on the exchange rate assumption of USD 1 to TWD 32, gross margin is expected to be between 51.5% and 53.5%, operating margin between 39.5% and 41.5%. This concludes my financial presentation.

我已經完成了財務摘要。現在讓我們轉向當前季度的指導。根據目前的業務前景，我們預計第四季營收將在 188 億美元至 196 億美元之間，中位數將較上季成長 11.1%。根據1美元兌32新台幣的匯率假設，毛利率預計在51.5%至53.5%之間，營業利益率在39.5%至41.5%之間。我的財務報告到此結束。

Now let me turn to our key messages. I will start by making some comments on our third quarter '23 and fourth quarter '23 profitability. Compared to second quarter, our third quarter gross margin increased by 20 basis points sequentially to 54.3%, primarily due to a higher capacity utilization rate and a more favorable foreign exchange rate, partially offset by the margin dilution from the initial ramp-up of our 3-nanometer technology.

現在讓我談談我們的關鍵訊息。我將首先對我們 23 年第三季和 23 年第四季的獲利能力發表一些評論。與第二季相比，我們第三季的毛利率環比成長了20 個基點，達到54.3%，這主要是由於更高的產能利用率和更有利的匯率，但部分被我們最初的成長帶來的利潤稀釋所抵消。3 奈米技術。

Compared to our third quarter guidance, our actual gross margin exceeded the high end of the range provided 3 months ago by 80 basis points, mainly due to a more favorable foreign exchange rate. We have just guided our fourth quarter gross margin to decline by 1.8 percentage points to 52.5% at the midpoint, primarily due to the continued margin dilution from the steep ramp of our 3-nanometer technology.

與我們第三季的指導相比，我們的實際毛利率超出了三個月前提供的範圍上限80個基點，這主要是由於更有利的外匯匯率。我們剛剛指導第四季度毛利率中位數下降 1.8 個百分點，至 52.5%，這主要是由於 3 奈米技術的急劇增長導致利潤率持續稀釋。

As a reminder, 6 factors determine TSMC's profitability: leadership technology development and ramp-up, pricing, cost reduction, capacity utilization, technology mix and foreign exchange rate. To manage our profitability in the next several years, we will work diligently on our internal cost improvement while continuing to strategically sell our value. Excluding the impact of foreign exchange rate, of which we have no control over, we continue to forecast a long-term gross margin of 53% and higher is achievable.

提醒一下，台積電的獲利能力有6個因素決定：領先的技術開發和提升、定價、成本降低、產能利用率、技術組合和外匯匯率。為了管理未來幾年的獲利能力，我們將努力改善內部成本，同時繼續策略性地銷售我們的價值。排除我們無法控制的匯率影響，我們繼續預測長期毛利率可以達到53%以上。

Next, let me talk about our 2023 CapEx and depreciation. Every year, our CapEx is spent in anticipation of the growth that will follow in future years. Given the near-term uncertainties, we continue to manage our business prudently and have tightened up our capital spending throughout the year where appropriate. We now expect our 2023 CapEx to be approximately USD 32 billion. Out of the approximately $32 billion CapEx for 2023, about 70% of the capital budget will be allocated for advanced process technologies; about 20% will be spent for specialty technologies; and about 10% will be spent for advanced packaging, testing, mask-making and others.

接下來，讓我談談我們 2023 年的資本支出和折舊。每年，我們的資本支出都用於預測未來幾年的成長。鑑於近期的不確定性，我們繼續審慎管理業務，並在全年酌情收緊資本支出。我們現在預計 2023 年的資本支出約為 320 億美元。 2023 年約 320 億美元的資本支出中，約 70% 的資本預算將分配給先進製程技術；約20%將用於專業技術；約10%用於先進封裝、測試、光罩製作等。

Our depreciation expense is now expected to increase by low 20s percentage year-over-year in 2023 as compared to our January forecast of approximately 30% year-over-year increase.

與我們 1 月預測的年增約 30% 相比，我們目前預計 2023 年折舊費用將年增 20% 左右。

Despite the near-term inventory cycle, our commitment to support customers' growth remains unchanged, and our disciplined CapEx and capacity planning remains based on the long-term structure market demand profile. We will continue to work closely with our customers to plan our long-term capacity and invest in leading-edge specialty and advanced packaging technologies to support their growth while delivering profitable growth to our shareholders.

儘管存在近期庫存週期，但我們支持客戶成長的承諾保持不變，我們嚴格的資本支出和產能規劃仍基於長期結構市場需求狀況。我們將繼續與客戶密切合作，規劃我們的長期產能，並投資於領先的專業和先進封裝技術，以支持他們的成長，同時為我們的股東帶來利潤成長。

Now let me turn the microphone over to C. C.

現在讓我把麥克風交給 C. C.

Thank you, Wendell. Good afternoon, everyone. First, let me start with our near-term demand and inventory. We concluded our third quarter with revenue of USD 17.3 billion, in line with our guidance in U.S. dollar terms. Our business in the third quarter was supported by the strong ramp of our industry-leading 3-nanometer technology and higher demand for 5-nanometer technologies, partially offset by customers' ongoing inventory adjustment.

謝謝你，溫德爾。大家下午好。首先，讓我從我們的近期需求和庫存開始。我們第三季的營收為 173 億美元，符合我們以美元計算的指引。我們第三季的業務受到業界領先的 3 奈米技術強勁成長和對 5 奈米技術更高需求的支持，但部分被客戶持續的庫存調整所抵消。

Moving into fourth quarter 2023. While AI-related demand continues to be strong, it is not enough to offset the overall cyclicality of our business. We expect our business in the fourth quarter to be supported by the continued strong ramp of our 3-nanometer technology, partially offset by customers' continued inventory adjustment.

進入 2023 年第四季。雖然人工智慧相關需求持續強勁，但不足以抵消我們業務的整體週期性。我們預計第四季度的業務將受到 3 奈米技術持續強勁成長的支持，部分被客戶持續的庫存調整所抵消。

On the inventory side, we expect the fabless semiconductor inventory to have continuously reduced in the third quarter. However, due to the persistent weaker overall macroeconomic conditions and slow demand recovery in China, customers remain cautious in their inventory control. Thus, we expect the inventory digestion to continue in the fourth quarter.

庫存方面，我們預計第三季無晶圓廠半導體庫存將持續減少。然而，由於中國整體宏觀經濟狀況持續疲軟，且需求復甦緩慢，客戶對庫存控制仍持謹慎態度。因此，我們預計第四季度庫存消化將持續。

Having said that, we are observing some early sign of demand stabilization in the PC and smartphone end market. Together with such level of inventory control, we forecast the fabless semiconductor inventory to further reduce and exit 4Q '23 at a healthier level.

話雖如此，我們觀察到個人電腦和智慧型手機終端市場需求穩定的一些早期跡象。加上這樣的庫存控制水平，我們預測無晶圓廠半導體庫存將進一步減少，並在 23 年第 4 季以更健康的水平退出。

Next, let me talk about our global manufacturing footprint update. TSMC's mission is to be the trusted technology and capacity provider of the global logic IC industry for years to come. As we have said before, our strategy is to expand our global manufacturing footprint to increase customer trust, expand our future growth potential and reach for more global talents. Our overseas decisions are based on our customers' need and the necessary level of government support. This is to maximize the value for our shareholders.

接下來，讓我來談談我們的全球製造足跡更新。台積電的使命是在未來幾年成為全球邏輯 IC 產業值得信賴的技術和產能提供者。正如我們之前所說，我們的策略是擴大我們的全球製造足跡，以增加客戶信任，擴大我們未來的成長潛力並吸引更多的全球人才。我們的海外決策是基於客戶的需求和必要的政府支援程度。這是為了我們股東的價值最大化。

In Europe, after conducting extensive due diligence, we announced our plan to build a specialty technology fab in Dresden, Germany focusing on automotive and industrial applications. We have received a strong commitment to support this project from our JV partners; the European Commission government; and German federal state and city governments. This fab will utilize 22- and 28-nanometer and 12/16-nanometer technologies for semiconductor wafer fabrication. Fab construction is scheduled to begin in second half 2024 and production is targeted to begin in late 2027.

在歐洲，經過廣泛的盡職調查，我們宣布計劃在德國德勒斯登建立專業技術工廠，專注於汽車和工業應用。我們得到了合資夥伴對支持該計畫的堅定承諾；歐盟委員會政府；以及德國聯邦州和市政府。該工廠將利用 22 奈米、28 奈米和 12/16 奈米技術進行半導體晶圓製造。工廠建設計劃於 2024 年下半年開始，生產預計於 2027 年底開始。

In Arizona, we are receiving strong support from the city of Phoenix, State of Arizona and U.S. federal government and continue to develop positive relationship. We work closely with our local trade and union partners. We are making good progress on the fab infrastructure, utilities and equipment installation issues in our first fab and the situation is improving. We have also begun early preparation for our Arizona fab operations and hired close to 1,100 local TSMC employees so far. Many of them has been brought to Taiwan for extensive hands-on experience in our fab, so that they can further their technical skills while being immersed in TSMC operation environment and culture.

在亞利桑那州，我們得到了亞利桑那州菲尼克斯市和美國聯邦政府的大力支持，並繼續發展積極的關係。我們與當地的工會夥伴密切合作。我們在第一座晶圓廠的晶圓廠基礎設施、公用事業和設備安裝問題上取得了良好進展，情況正在改善。我們也開始為亞利桑那州晶圓廠營運進行早期準備，迄今已僱用了近 1,100 名當地台積電員工。他們中的許多人被帶到台灣，在我們的晶圓廠獲得豐富的實踐經驗，以便他們在沉浸於台積電運營環境和文化的同時，進一步提高他們的技術技能。

We continue to target volume production of N4 process technology in first half 2025 and are confident that once we begin operations, we will be able to deliver the same level of manufacturing, quality and reliability in Arizona as from our fabs in Taiwan.

我們繼續以 2025 年上半年實現 N4 製程技術的量產為目標，並有信心一旦開始運營，我們將能夠在亞利桑那州提供與台灣工廠相同水準的製造、品質和可靠性。

In Japan, we built a specialty technology fab, which will utilized 12- and 16-nanometer and 22- and 28-nanometer process technologies. We have hired approximately 800 local TSMC employees so far with the majority having similarly been brought to Taiwan for hands-on experience. Equipment moving has begun this month and volume production is on track for late 2024.

在日本，我們建立了一家專業技術工廠，將採用 12 和 16 奈米以及 22 和 28 奈米製程技術。到目前為止，我們已經僱用了大約 800 名台積電當地員工，其中大多數人同樣被帶到台灣進行實務經驗。設備移動已於本月開始，預計 2024 年底實現量產。

In China, we have recently received an extension from the U.S. Bureau of Industry and Security to continue our operation in Nanjing. We are currently in the process of applying for validated end user authorization and expect to receive permanent authorization in the near future.

在中國，我們最近收到美國工業和安全局的延期，以繼續我們在南京的業務。我們目前正在申請經過驗證的最終用戶授權，並期望在不久的將來獲得永久授權。

From a cost perspective, the initial costs of overseas fabs are higher than TSMC fab in Taiwan due to, first, smaller fab scale; second, higher costs throughout the supply chain; and third, the early stage of semiconductor ecosystem overseas as compared to a matured ecosystem in Taiwan. TSMC's responsibility is to manage and minimize the cost gap to maximize the return for our shareholders. Our pricing will also remain strategic to reflect our value, which include the value of geographic flexibility. We will also work closely with government to secure their support.

從成本角度來看，海外晶圓廠的初始成本高於台積電台灣晶圓廠，一是晶圓廠規模較小；其次，整個供應鏈的成本更高；第三，與台灣的成熟生態系相比，海外半導體生態系仍處於早期階段。台積電的責任是管理並最小化成本差距，以最大化股東的回報。我們的定價也將保持策略性，以反映我們的價值，其中包括地理彈性的價值。我們也將與政府密切合作，以獲得他們的支持。

At the same time, we are leveraging our fundamental competitive advantage of manufacturing technology leadership, large volume, economies of scale to continuously drive our costs down. By taking such actions, TSMC will have the ability to absorb the higher cost of overseas fabs and still deliver the long-term gross margin of 53% and higher and sustainable ROE of greater than 25%. We remain firm in our commitment to maximize the value for our shareholders.

同時，我們正在利用製造技術領先、產量大、規模經濟等基本競爭優勢來持續降低成本。透過這些行動，台積電將有能力消化海外晶圓廠的較高成本，並仍能實現53%的長期毛利率和高於25%的更高且可持續的ROE。我們仍然堅定地致力於為股東實現價值最大化。

Now let me talk about N3 and N3E ramp-up and progress, our 3-nanometer technology, the most advanced semiconductor technology in both PPA and transistor technology. N3 is already in volume production with good yield and we are seeing a strong ramp in the second half of this year, supported by both HPC and smartphone applications. We reaffirm N3 will contribute mid-single-digit percentage of our total wafer revenue in 2023, and we expect a much higher percentage in 2024 supported by robust demand from multiple customers.

現在讓我談談 N3 和 N3E 的提升和進展，我們的 3 奈米技術，PPA 和電晶體技術中最先進的半導體技術。 N3 已經投入量產，良率良好，在 HPC 和智慧型手機應用的支援下，我們預計今年下半年將出現強勁成長。我們重申，到 2023 年，N3 將占我們晶圓總收入的中個位數百分比，並且在多個客戶強勁需求的支持下，我們預計 2024 年的百分比會更高。

N3E will leverage the strong foundation of N3 to further extend our N3 family with enhanced performance, power and yield and provide complete platform support for both HPC and smartphone applications. N3E has passed qualification and achieved performance and yield targets and will start volume production in fourth quarter of this year. We also continue to provide further enhancement of N3 technology, including N3P and N3X.

N3E 將利用 N3 的堅實基礎，進一步擴展我們的 N3 系列，增強效能、功耗和產量，並為 HPC 和智慧型手機應用提供完整的平台支援。 N3E已通過資質認證並達到績效和良率目標，並將於今年第四季開始量產。我們也持續提供 N3 技術的進一步增強，包括 N3P 和 N3X。

With our strategy of continuous enhancement of our 3-nanometer process technologies, we expect strong multi-yield demand from our customers and we are confident that our 3-nanometer family will be another large and long-lasting node for TSMC.

隨著我們不斷增強 3 奈米製程技術的策略，我們預期客戶將產生強勁的多良率需求，並且我們相信我們的 3 奈米系列將成為台積電的另一個大型且持久的節點。

Finally, I will talk about the N2 stages. The recent surge in AI-related demand supports our already strong conviction that demand for energy-efficient computing will accelerate in an intelligent and connected world. The value of our technology platform is expanding beyond the scope of geometry shrink alone and increasing toward greater power efficiency.

最後說一下N2階段。最近人工智慧相關需求的激增支持了我們本已堅定的信念，即在智慧互聯的世界中，對節能運算的需求將會加速。我們技術平台的價值正在超越單純的幾何尺寸縮小的範圍，並朝著更高的能源效率方向發展。

In addition, as process technology complexity increases, the lead time and engagement with customers also start much earlier. As a result, we are observing a strong level of customer interest and engagement at our N2 similar to or higher than N3 at a similar stage from both HPC and smartphone applications.

此外，隨著製程技術複雜性的增加，交貨時間和與客戶的接觸也開始得更早。因此，我們在 HPC 和智慧型手機應用程式的類似階段觀察到，客戶對 N2 的興趣和參與度與 N3 相似或更高。

Our 2-nanometer technology will be the most advanced semiconductor technology in the industry in both density and energy efficiency when it is introduced in 2025. Our N2 technology development is progressing well and on track for volume production in 2025. Our N2 will adopt nanosheet transistor structure, which has demonstrated excellent power efficiency. N2 will deliver full node performance and power benefits to address the increasing need for energy-efficient computing.

我們的2奈米技術將於2025年推出，無論是密度還是能源效率，都將成為業界最先進的半導體技術。我們的N2技術開發進展順利，預計在2025年實現量產。我們的N2將採用奈米片電晶體結構，表現出優異的功率效率。 N2 將提供完整的節點效能和功耗優勢，以滿足對節能運算日益增長的需求。

As part of N2 technology platform, we also developed N2 with backside power rail solution, which is best suited for HPC applications. We are targeting backside power rail to be available in the second half of 2025 to customers with production in 2026. With our strategy of continuous enhancement, N2 and its derivative will further extend our technology leadership well into the future.

作為N2技術平台的一部分，我們還開發了具有背面電源軌解決方案的N2，該解決方案最適合HPC應用。我們的目標是在 2025 年下半年向客戶提供背面電源軌，並在 2026 年量產。隨著我們不斷增強的策略，N2 及其衍生性商品將進一步將我們的技術領先地位延伸到未來。

This concludes our key message, and thank you for your attention.

我們的關鍵訊息到此結束，感謝您的關注。

Thank you, C. C. This concludes our prepared statements. (Operator Instructions) Now let's begin the Q&A session.

謝謝 C.C。我們準備好的發言到此結束。 （操作員說明） 現在讓我們開始問答環節。

The first one to ask questions, Gokul Hariharan from JPMorgan.

第一個提問的是來自摩根大通的 Gokul Hariharan。

Congratulations on a great result, and thanks for the details on N3 and N2. My first question is on the technology leadership. Given we are hearing a lot of competitive messaging from your U.S. IDM competitor/customer in the last few months, Intel seems to think that they will be getting into technology -- or process technology leadership in 2025.

恭喜您取得優異成績，並感謝您提供有關 N3 和 N2 的詳細資訊。我的第一個問題是關於技術領先地位。鑑於我們在過去幾個月中聽到了來自美國 IDM 競爭對手/客戶的大量競爭信息，英特爾似乎認為他們將在 2025 年進入技術或工藝技術領先地位。

Just wanted to hear what does TSMC think of Intel's claim. And when TSMC thinks about customer engagement, do you feel you will lose a little bit of market share to Intel when it comes to the N2 or the first generation of nanosheet transistors? Or you think your very high market share in N3 will continue into N2? That's my first question.

只是想聽聽台積電如何看待英特爾的說法。當台積電考慮客戶參與度時，您是否認為在 N2 或第一代奈米片電晶體方面您會失去一點市場份額給英特爾？或者您認為您在 N3 中的高市佔率會持續到 N2 嗎？這是我的第一個問題。

Okay. Thank you, Gokul. Please allow me to summarize your first question. So Gokul's first question is about technology leadership and competition with, I think, particularly IDM. He notes this IDM is very -- messaging about taking over process technology leadership from TSMC. And so Gokul's question is, how do we see this? Are we concerned that we will lose market share at nanosheet or N2 to this IDM given their claims of process -- regaining process technology leadership. Is that correct, Gokul?

好的。謝謝你，戈庫爾。請容許我總結一下你的第一個問題。因此，Gokul 的第一個問題是關於技術領先地位以及與 IDM 的競爭，我認為尤其如此。他指出，這次 IDM 傳達的訊息是關於從台積電手中奪取製程技術領導地位。所以戈庫爾的問題是，我們要如何看待這一點？鑑於他們的製程主張——重新獲得製程技術領先地位，我們是否擔心我們會失去奈米片或 N2 的市場份額給這個 IDM。這是正確的嗎，戈庫爾？

Yes, that's right.

恩，那就對了。

Well, Gokul, this is C. C. Wei. Let me answer your question with a very simple answer is that no, but what I will state a little bit long. Actually, we do not underestimate any of our competitors or take them lightly. Having said that, our internal assessment shows that our N3P, now I repeat again, N3P technology, demonstrated comparable PPA to 18A, my competitor's technology, but with an earlier time to market, better technology, maturity and much better cost.

好吧，Gokul，我是 C.C. Wei。讓我用一個非常簡單的答案來回答你的問題：不，但我會說得有點長。事實上，我們並沒有低估任何競爭對手，也沒有掉以輕心。話雖如此，我們的內部評估表明，我們的N3P，現在我再說一遍，N3P 技術，表現出與我競爭對手的技術18A 相當的PPA，但上市時間更早，技術更好，成熟度更高，成本也更好。

In fact, let me repeat again, our 2-nanometer technology without backside power is more advanced than both N3P and 18A and will be semiconductor industry's most advanced technology when it is introduced in 2025. Does that answer your question, Gokul?

事實上，讓我再說一遍，我們的無背面電源 2 奈米技術比 N3P 和 18A 都更先進，並且在 2025 年推出時將成為半導體行業最先進的技術。這能回答你的問題嗎，Gokul？

Okay. That's quite clear. Could you talk -- also talk about -- my second question is, could we talk a little bit about the AI-related demand. You've seen a pretty strong demand on the data center side and you talked about AI being about 6% of revenues this year, mostly on the data center side.

好的。這很清楚。你能談談──也談談──我的第二個問題是，我們可以談談人工智慧相關的需求嗎？您已經看到資料中心的需求相當強勁，並且您談到今年人工智慧約佔收入的 6%，主要是在資料中心方面。

Are we starting to see more engagement on AI demand on edge devices? Based on TSMC's expectations, is this going to be a big growth driver in the next 1 to 2 years for TSMC's leading-edge AI devices -- sorry, AI on edge devices? Do you think that, that is a bigger driver for you?

我們是否開始看到邊緣設備上人工智慧需求的更多參與？根據台積電的預期，這是否會成為台積電尖端AI設備未來1到2年的一大成長動力－抱歉，是邊緣設備上的AI？您認為這對您來說是更大的驅動力嗎？

Okay. Thank you, Gokul. So Gokul's second question is on AI-related demand. He notes, of course, that we have talked last time also about our AI-related demand outlook and particularly focused on what we call server AI processors or Gokul referring to data centers.

好的。謝謝你，戈庫爾。所以Gokul的第二個問題是關於AI相關的需求。當然，他指出，我們上次也討論了與人工智慧相關的需求前景，特別關注我們所謂的伺服器人工智慧處理器或 Gokul 指的資料中心。

So his question is really more about on-the-edge devices. Are we starting to see AI-related demand for edge devices? Do we expect this to be a big growth driver in the next 1 to 2 years for our leading-edge technologies as well?

所以他的問題實際上更多是關於邊緣設備。我們是否開始看到與人工智慧相關的邊緣設備需求？我們是否預計這也會成為我們領先技術未來 1 到 2 年內的一大成長動力？

Well, the answer is also very simple, yes. We do see some activities from customers who add AI capability in end devices such as smartphone and PCs, [so new growth] engine and AI and PC, whatever. And we certainly hope that this one will add to the course, help TSMC more strengthen under our AI's business.

嗯，答案也很簡單，是的。我們確實看到一些客戶在智慧型手機和個人電腦、[新增長]引擎以及人工智慧和個人電腦等終端設備中添加人工智慧功能的活動。我們當然希望這門課程能加入課程中，幫助台積電在我們的AI業務下更加強大。

So do you see that happen in the next 1 year? Or is it something that will happen in a more lower term horizon? Just wanted to understand when to think about the cadence of this growth.

那麼您認為未來一年會發生這種情況嗎？或者這會在更短期內發生嗎？只是想了解何時考慮這種成長的節奏。

Okay. Let me answer briefly. It started right now, and we will expect that the more and more customer will put that AI's capability into the end devices, into their product.

好的。我來簡單回答一下。現在它就開始了，我們預計將越來越多的客戶將人工智慧的功能融入終端設備和他們的產品中。

Next one to ask question, Charlie Chan from Morgan Stanley.

下一位提問者是摩根士丹利的陳查理。

So my first question is about the cycle recovery. So much appreciate about your comments about end demand. So my question is about when do you expect that there will be an uptick of the fab utilization, assuming demand is stabilizing and also inventory get back to the healthy level? Because it's just very hard to believe your fab utilization outside of leading edge will stay at only 70%, 80%. So first question is about, do you see that overall fab utilization to pick up anytime soon?

所以我的第一個問題是關於週期恢復的。非常感謝您對最終需求的評論。所以我的問題是，假設需求穩定且庫存恢復到健康水平，您預期晶圓廠利用率何時會上升？因為很難相信您的晶圓廠在領先優勢之外的利用率將保持在 70%、80%。所以第一個問題是，您認為整體晶圓廠利用率會很快回升嗎？

Okay. So Charlie, I think your first question is sort of, if I'm correct, around the cycle and in terms of -- how do we see the cycle and the recovery? When -- do we see the fab utilization picking up, which really is a function of, I guess, do we see the cycle bottoming out and when do we expect a recovery. Is that correct?

好的。所以查理，我認為你的第一個問題是，如果我是正確的，圍繞週期以及我們如何看待週期和復甦？我們何時會看到晶圓廠利用率回升，我想，這實際上是我們是否會看到週期觸底以及我們何時預計會復甦的函數。那是對的嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Well, Charlie, this is C. C. Wei again. Let me answer your question. As I said, we do observe some early signs of demand stabilization in PC and smartphone end markets. Those 2 segments are the biggest segment for TSMC's business. We want to say that 2024 will be a very healthy growth. But right now, did we see the bottom? Very close, very close.

好吧，查理，我又是 C.C. Wei。讓我回答你的問題。正如我所說，我們確實觀察到個人電腦和智慧型手機終端市場需求穩定的一些早期跡象。這兩個部門是台積電業務最大的部門。我們想說，2024 年將會是一個非常健康的成長。但現在，我們看到底部了嗎？非常接近，非常接近。

We want to -- I cannot give you a number, but -- because it's too early to call it a sharp rebound. But even with the macro environment remain uncertain, we're [waiting] customers' inventory control in first half of 2024, having said that, we already said that we are strong technology leadership and a broad customer base. And those two are unique and specific to TSMC, enable our customers to win business in their end market and TSMC continues to deliver healthy growth. And that's why we can do better than overall industry. And that's why we have confidence that we will have healthier growth next year.

我們想要——我無法給你一個數字，但是——因為現在稱其為急劇反彈還為時過早。但即使宏觀環境仍然不確定，我們仍在等待客戶在 2024 年上半年的庫存控制，話雖如此，我們已經說過我們擁有強大的技術領先地位和廣泛的客戶基礎。這兩個是台積電獨有且特定的，使我們的客戶能夠在其終端市場贏得業務，並且台積電繼續實現健康成長。這就是為什麼我們可以比整個產業做得更好。這就是為什麼我們有信心明年會有更健康的成長。

Okay. Okay. Yes. So just want to kind of verify because we do see some green shoots and some rush orders to wafer foundry sector.

好的。好的。是的。所以只是想驗證一下，因為我們確實看到了一些萌芽和一些晶圓代工行業的緊急訂單。

But second question is also about AI. My question is that over the past 3 months, do you see any upward revision of the forecast maybe from the GPU or just the custom chip?

但第二個問題也與人工智慧有關。我的問題是，在過去 3 個月中，您是否看到預測有向上修正，可能來自 GPU 還是僅來自定制晶片？

And I know it's a very, very recent, right, just 2 days ago, U.S. put some additional export control on the AI shipment to China. Do you think that, that is going to have any kind of near-term or long-term impact to your AI [semi] revenue growth assumption?

我知道這是最近的事情，就在兩天前，美國對出口到中國的人工智慧實施了一些額外的出口管制。您認為這會對您的人工智慧[半]收入成長假設產生任何短期或長期影響嗎？

Okay. Thank you, Charlie. So Charlie's second question is related to AI, two-parter. First, do we see over the last 3 months, I think his words were an upward revision in the demand from AI in the last 3 months. And then he wants to know, given the recent additional regulations announced, what would the impact to the AI demand be to TSMC, both for the short term and the long term?

好的。謝謝你，查理。所以查理的第二個問題與人工智慧有關，雙方。首先，我們是否看到過去三個月的情況，我認為他的話是對過去三個月人工智慧需求的向上修正。然後他想知道，鑑於最近宣布的額外法規，人工智慧需求對台積電的短期和長期影響是什麼？

Charlie, the AI demand continues to grow stronger and stronger. So from TSMC's point of view, now we have about -- we have a capacity limitation to support them -- to support the demand. We are working hard to increase the capacity to meet their demand, that's for one thing.

查理，人工智慧的需求持續成長。因此，從台積電的角度來看，現在我們有大約 - 我們有能力限制來支持他們 - 來支持需求。我們正在努力提高產能以滿足他們的需求，這是一方面。

Now U.S. government put a new regulation and to -- for some of the product cannot be shipped to Mainland China. However, it is just for a couple of days, we are still evaluating the -- we are still doing our assessment. But so far, we can tell you that the impact to TSMC is limited and manageable, at least for the short term. For the long term, we are still evaluating what is the consequence.

現在美國政府推出了一項新規定──部分產品不能運往中國大陸。然而，這只是幾天，我們仍在評估——我們仍在進行評估。但到目前為止，我們可以告訴大家，至少在短期內，對台積電的影響是有限且可控制的。從長遠來看，我們仍在評估後果是什麼。

Got it. So actually, there was one embedded question about the custom chip. So may I know your perspective about this custom chip, long-term may kind of gain share or outgrow the GPU products. So what was your assumption for this custom chip in terms of the real contribution within AI or to TSMC, may I ask as a follow-up?

知道了。所以實際上，有一個關於定制晶片的內在問題。所以我想知道您對這款客製化晶片的看法，從長遠來看，它可能會獲得份額或超過 GPU 產品。那麼，作為後續問題，您對這款客製化晶片對人工智慧或台積電的真正貢獻有何假設？

Okay. Let me answer. Whether customer developed the CPU, GPU, AI accelerator or ASIC for all the type for AI applications, the commonality is that they all require usage of leading-edge technology with stable yield delivery to support larger die size and a strong foundry design ecosystem. All of those are TSMC's strengths. So we are able to address and capture a major portion of the market in terms of a semiconductor component in AI.

好的。讓我來回答一下。無論客戶為所有類型的人工智慧應用開發CPU、GPU、AI加速器或ASIC，其共同點是它們都需要使用領先的技術和穩定的良率交付，以支援更大的晶片尺寸和強大的代工設計生態系。這些都是台積電的優點。因此，我們能夠在人工智慧半導體組件方面佔據並佔領大部分市場。

Next one to ask questions, Bruce Lu from Goldman Sachs.

下一位提問者是來自高盛的 Bruce Lu。

I think the question is try to ask about the outlook for next 2 years. I think -- I do recall that management mentioned about like 15% to 20% revenue CAGR from '21 to '26. The smartphone business is supposed to be in line or slightly below the corporate average in terms of the growth rate, but the smartphone business was down meaningfully in 2023. Do we expect to see a sharp rebound for the smartphone business to get back to the corporate average in terms of growth rate?

我認為這個問題是嘗試詢問未來兩年的前景。我想——我確實記得管理層提到過從 21 年到 26 年收入複合年增長率約為 15% 到 20%。智慧型手機業務的成長率本應符合或略低於企業平均水平，但智慧型手機業務在 2023 年大幅下滑。我們是否預期智慧型手機業務會出現大幅反彈，從而重回企業平均水平？平均成長率？

Also, the management also mentioned that the backend business will grow in line with the corporate average. Will we see a much stronger growth from the backend business in the coming 2 years?

此外，管理層也提到後端業務將按照公司平均水準成長。未來兩年我們會看到後端業務有更強勁的成長嗎？

Okay. So Bruce's question really is looking at we have -- indeed, you're right, Bruce we have said we will grow between 15% to 20% revenue CAGR in U.S. dollar terms from 2021 to 2026. So Bruce's question wants to break down the components here to look at smartphone, in particular. Given that it has been a slower-growing market these last few years, how do we see the growth of the smartphone market the next 1 to 2 years in the context of this CAGR.

好的。所以布魯斯的問題實際上是著眼於我們——事實上，你是對的，布魯斯，我們說過，從2021 年到2026 年，以美元計算，我們的收入複合年增長率將增長15% 到20 %。所以布魯斯的問題想要分解這裡特別關注智慧型手機的組件。鑑於過去幾年市場成長緩慢，在這種複合年增長率的背景下，我們如何看待智慧型手機市場未來一到兩年的成長。

And then also, I think Bruce is also asking about the backend growth. We have said previously it will grow slightly faster than the corporate average. What is the current expectation now also for the next 1 to 2 years. Is that correct, Bruce?

另外，我認為 Bruce 也在詢問後端的成長。我們之前曾說過，其成長速度將略高於企業平均。目前對未來 1 到 2 年的預期是什麼？這是正確的嗎，布魯斯？

Yes.

是的。

Bruce, this is Wendell. Yes, in the next 2 to 3 years, backing up to '21 to '26, we still expect that the smartphone, as a whole, will grow slightly slower than the corporate average. We still think that HPC will be the strongest one and will be the major growth contributor to our multiyear growth. This is your first question.

布魯斯，這是溫德爾。是的，在未來 2 到 3 年內，從 21 世紀到 26 世紀，我們仍然預期智慧型手機整體的成長速度將略低於企業平均值。我們仍然認為 HPC 將是最強大的，並將成為我們多年成長的主要成長貢獻者。這是你的第一個問題。

As to the growth of backend business, we still expect that the backend business, as a whole, will grow slightly faster than the corporate average in the 5-year time period.

對於後端業務的成長，我們仍預期5年時間內後端業務整體成長率將略快於企業平均。

I see. So the next question is for the technology cadence. I mean, for TSMC, for revenue contribution for 5-nanometer, we start to see the meaningful revenue contribution for 5-nanometer starting in the third quarter 2020 and 3-nanometer is third quarter 2023. So the cadence, it looks like, is longer for 3 nanometers versus 5-nanometer and 7 nanometers.

我懂了。所以下一個問題是技術節奏。我的意思是，對於台積電來說，就5 奈米的收入貢獻而言，我們從2020 年第三季開始看到5 奈米的有意義的收入貢獻，而3 奈米則是2023 年第三季。因此，節奏看起來是3 奈米比 5 奈米和 7 奈米更長。

What is the technology cadence moving forward? Are we able to see a meaningful revenue contribution of 2-nanometer in 2-year time frame or 3 years' time frame? I think the technology migration cadence is an important indicator still.

前進的技術節奏是什麼？我們是否能夠在 2 年或 3 年的時間範圍內看到 2 奈米技術對收入的有意義的貢獻？我認為技術遷移節奏仍然是重要指標。

Okay. Thank you, Bruce. So Bruce's second question, again, as he said, is around the technology cadence. He notes that 5-nanometer started contributing revenue in 3Q '20, but I think you're saying 3-nanometer's revenue contribution in 3Q '23. So the cadence is growing longer to kind of 3 years between 5 and 3.

好的。謝謝你，布魯斯。因此，正如布魯斯所說，他的第二個問題是圍繞著技術節奏的。他指出，5 奈米在 20 年第三季開始貢獻收入，但我認為您是說 3 奈米在 23 年第三季貢獻收入。因此，節奏在 5 到 3 之間變得更長，達到 3 年。

So what will be the technology cadence in the future? And thus, for 2-nanometer, when should we expect meaningful revenue as well. Is that correct, Bruce?

那麼未來的技術節奏會是怎麼樣呢？因此，對於 2 奈米，我們什麼時候也應該期待有意義的收入。這是正確的嗎，布魯斯？

That's correct.

這是正確的。

Okay. Bruce, let me answer the question. I think that we developed the technology to meet the customers' demand. That's the first priority to us. But then different customers may have different product schedule consideration. And as time goes by, the technology complexity actually become more and more complicated and our customer will design their product and react to the market situation.

好的。布魯斯，讓我來回答這個問題。我認為我們開發技術是為了滿足客戶的需求。這是我們的首要任務。但不同的客戶可能有不同的產品進度考量。隨著時間的推移，技術的複雜性實際上變得越來越複雜，我們的客戶將設計他們的產品並對市場情況做出反應。

So let me answer the question that's -- in a very simple way: TSMC's technology cadence remain constant and to support our customers' growth. But whether we got the same amount or same percentage of the revenue, it will depend on customers' product schedule.

因此，讓我以非常簡單的方式回答這個問題：台積電的技術節奏保持不變，並支持我們客戶的成長。但我們是否獲得相同數量或相同百分比的收入，這將取決於客戶的產品進度。

But the follow-up question is that if the customer doesn't really need the advanced technology as fast as before, maybe we slow it down a bit, which will make better returns, right?

但隨之而來的問題是，如果客戶確實不像以前那麼快需要先進的技術，也許我們放慢一點，這樣會獲得更好的回報，對吧？

So Bruce's follow-up is, so if the customers do not need the leading node as fast or as soon as before, then slow down the cadence, does that mean we will see better returns?

所以Bruce的後續是，如果客戶不需要像以前那麼快或那麼快的主導節點，那麼放慢節奏，是否代表我們會看到更好的回報？

Well, we don't slow down our technology development per se. We might slow down our capacity expansion according to customer's demand. Did I answer your question, Bruce? That's what we are doing right now.

好吧，我們本身並沒有放慢科技發展的速度。我們可能會根據客戶的需求放慢產能擴張的速度。我回答你的問題了嗎，布魯斯？這就是我們現在正在做的事情。

I see. Understand.

我懂了。理解。

The next one, we have Laura Chen from Citi.

下一位是花旗銀行的 Laura Chen。

I think my question is also similar to what Bruce mentioned about the capacity expansion plan. As we see that healthier inventory situation right now and at the same time the most advanced process now depends on customers' demand, so just want to get your feeling about the overall CapEx outlook or capacity outlook into the next 2 years. Do you feel that we'll be better to resume the year-on-year CapEx next year or later, considering there's still quite strong demand on N3, N2 ramp-up? At the same time, the most advanced node seems you will see maybe 2x more expensive on N2 versus N3. So my question is just about the future capacity expansion. Yes.

我想我的問題也跟Bruce提到的產能擴張計畫類似。我們看到現在的庫存狀況更加健康，同時最先進的流程現在取決於客戶的需求，因此只想了解您對未來兩年的整體資本支出前景或產能前景的感受。考慮到 N3、N2 產能成長的需求仍然相當強勁，您認為我們明年或更晚恢復同比資本支出是否會更好？同時，最先進的節點似乎 N2 比 N3 貴 2 倍。所以我的問題只是關於未來的產能擴張。是的。

Okay. So Laura's first question again is on the capacity expansion plan. She notes that, of course, the inventory, as we said, is becoming healthier but also with N3 and N2. So she really wants to know what is the CapEx and capacity outlook planned for the next 1 to 2 years.

好的。所以勞拉的第一個問題又是關於產能擴張計畫。她指出，當然，正如我們所說，庫存正在變得更加健康，但 N3 和 N2 也變得更加健康。所以她真的很想知道未來 1 到 2 年計畫的資本支出和產能前景是多少。

Right. Laura, this is Wendell. C. C. is just mentioned our capacity plan will really depend on the customers' product plan.

正確的。蘿拉，這是溫德爾。 C.C.剛才提到我們的產能計畫其實取決於客戶的產品計畫。

Now in terms of CapEx, what we can see now is that we, in the past few years, have invested very heavily to capture the growth in the next few years. And as we begin to harvest those investments, we expect our -- the increase of our CapEx to be leveling off in the next few years. That doesn't mean the dollar amount is going to reduce. But the capital intensity is expected to decline in the next few years. That's what we can see at this moment.

現在就資本支出而言，我們現在可以看到的是，我們在過去幾年中進行了大量投資，以抓住未來幾年的成長。當我們開始收穫這些投資時，我們預計資本支出的成長將在未來幾年趨於穩定。這並不意味著美元金額將會減少。但預計未來幾年資本密集度將會下降。這就是我們此刻所看到的。

I recall that previously, we mentioned about like we target longer term to back to like mid-30s for our CapEx intensity. So is any possibility we see or we achieve that target next year?

我記得之前，我們提到過我們的資本支出強度的長期目標是回到 30 年代中期。那麼明年我們是否有可能看到或實現該目標？

It's -- first of all, it's not a target. It's a forecast based on the customers' demand. And secondly, it's like 3 or 5 years out. It's not the immediate next year.

首先，它不是一個目標。這是基於客戶需求的預測。其次，大概三、五年後。這不是明年。

Okay. Very clear. And also my second question is about N2 progress. Appreciate C. C.'s previous sharing on the progress and also the backside power time line. I'm just wondering that what would be the most challenging part if we migrate to like a backside power?

好的。非常清楚。我的第二個問題是關於 N2 的進展。感謝 C. C. 先前對進度以及背面電源時間線的分享。我只是想知道如果我們遷移到背面電源，最具挑戰性的部分是什麼？

And also since the transistor density will become totally different on nanosheet, so I'm just wondering the clients' migration or intention to adopt the most advanced nodes into next 2, 3 years? And what will be the most challenging in technology perspective?

而且由於奈米片上的電晶體密度將變得完全不同，所以我只是想知道客戶在未來 2、3 年內是否會遷移或打算採用最先進的節點？從技術角度來看，最具挑戰性的是什麼？

Okay. So Laura, let me make sure I got this right. So your second question is about N2 and you want to know with the adoption of backside power rail, what is the most challenging part from a technology perspective and then how do we see the customer adoption?

好的。所以勞拉，讓我確保我做對了。所以你的第二個問題是關於 N2 的，你想知道隨著背面電源軌的採用，從技術角度來看最具挑戰性的部分是什麼，然後我們如何看待客戶的採用？

Yes. Correct.

是的。正確的。

Laura, I'll answer that as technology moving into more and more advanced node, the challenge is always there. Technology complexity increase dramatically. But we can do it, no doubt about it. And we still remain the technology leadership in this industry.

勞拉，我會回答說，隨著技術進入越來越先進的節點，挑戰始終存在。技術複雜性急劇增加。但我們可以做到，這是毫無疑問的。我們仍然保持著該行業的技術領先地位。

If you ask me what is the most challenging part, I would say it's cost. I mean, that's -- you look at it today, inflation, everything, and the tool have become more and more expensive. Although we can do it on time to meet customer's requirement, our challenge right now actually, I would say, number one, cost. I want to reduce the cost so more customers can afford it. But even with that, actually, we have a lot of customer interested and engaged with TSMC today. Actually, it's probably higher than the N3 at a similar stage. Okay. Did I answer your question -- yes.

如果你問我最有挑戰性的部分是什麼，我會說是成本。我的意思是，你今天看看，通貨膨脹，一切，工具都變得越來越貴。雖然我們可以按時滿足客戶的要求，但我想說，我們現在面臨的挑戰實際上是第一，成本。我想降低成本，讓更多的客戶負擔得起。但即便如此，實際上，今天我們有許多客戶對台積電感興趣並與之合作。事實上，它可能比同階段的N3還要高。好的。我回答你的問題了嗎——是的。

Okay. Yes, very clear.

好的。是的，非常清楚。

Right now, we have Brett Simpson from Arete Research.

現在，我們有來自 Arete Research 的 Brett Simpson。

I had a question for C. C. regarding the hyperscalers. Major U.S. hyperscalers are hiring a lot of chip designers at the moment and looking to make their own AI silicon going direct to TSMC, much like Apple has done over the years. Are you -- is TSMC generally supportive of this trend or not? And can you give us your perspective as to whether hyperscalers have the in-house IP and skills to cut out the ASIC suppliers or not and go direct to TSMC?

我有一個關於超大規模的問題要問 C. C.。美國主要的超大規模企業目前正在僱用大量晶片設計師，並希望直接向台積電生產自己的人工智慧晶片，就像蘋果多年來所做的那樣。您－台積電總體上是否支持此趨勢？您能否告訴我們您對超大規模企業是否擁有內部 IP 和技能來排除 ASIC 供應商並直接轉向台積電的看法？

Okay. Brett, thank you. So Brett's first question is looking at his observation, U.S. hyperscale companies are hiring a lot of people to do AI custom chips, silicon and working directly or coming directly to work with TSMC. So his question is, is TSMC support such efforts? And how do we see such type of customers, I guess? Is that your question, Brett?

好的。布雷特，謝謝你。所以布雷特的第一個問題是看看他的觀察，美國超大規模公司正在僱用很多人來做人工智慧客製化晶片、矽片，並直接或直接與台積電合作。那麼他的問題是，台積電是否支持這樣的努力？我想我們如何看待這類客戶？這是你的問題嗎，布雷特？

Yes. And generally, just share your perspective on how you see this part of the business developing at TSMC.

是的。一般來說，只需分享您對台積電這部分業務發展的看法即可。

All right, Brett. Okay, those are hyperscalers. I don't comment on the specific customer. But all we know or our fundamental rule is whether customer develop the CPU, GPU, AI accelerator or ASIC for their own application or for any purpose in the AI area, we will support them, actually. And because of our technology leadership and our good manufacturing, so we are able to address and capture a major portion of the market. And so you are asking whether we support it or not, we support every customer all over the world.

好吧，布雷特。好吧，這些是超大規模的。我不會對特定客戶發表評論。但我們所知道的或我們的基本規則是，無論客戶是為自己的應用程式還是為人工智慧領域的任何目的開發 CPU、GPU、AI 加速器或 ASIC，我們實際上都會支援他們。由於我們的技術領先和良好的製造，我們能夠佔領並佔領大部分市場。所以你問我們是否支持，我們支持世界各地的每一位客戶。

Okay. That's very clear. And maybe just as a follow-up, I wanted to ask about some of the areas in the quarter that were weaker than expected, namely, 7-nanometer, I think it's half year-on-year; and also automotive that saw a decline sequentially, a meaningful decline sequentially. Can you just help us understand how you build back up 7-nanometer? What led to the weakness? And what's happening in automotive? And how do you assess prospects for automotive over the next 6, 9 months or so?

好的。這非常清楚。也許只是作為一個後續，我想問本季一些弱於預期的領域，即7奈米，我認為是同比的一半；汽車產業也出現了連續下降，而且是連續下降。您能幫助我們了解一下您是如何建造 7 奈米的嗎？是什麼導致了弱點？汽車產業正在發生什麼事？您如何評估未來 6、9 個月左右的汽車產業前景？

Okay. So 2 parts to Brett's question. Maybe I'll start with the second, but anyway, looking at automotive demand and the weakness in the past quarter, how do we see the automotive demand.

好的。布雷特的問題分為兩部分。也許我會從第二個開始，但無論如何，看看汽車需求和過去一個季度的疲軟，我們如何看待汽車需求。

And then also his question is about 7-nanometer, also year-on-year sharp revenue decrease. So how do we see the outlook for 7-nanometer as well.

然後他的問題是關於7奈米，收入也比去年同期大幅下降。那我們要如何看待7奈米的前景呢？

Well, let me answer the question on automotive demand. In fact, in the past 3 years, automotive demand is very strong. And we deliver whatever they asked. And today, I think the automotive demand already entered the inventory adjustment mode in the second half of 2023. However, we still expect the automotive demand will increase again in 2024 because more and more EV, more and more functionality being added to automotive and that's what we saw.

好，我來回答一下汽車需求的問題。事實上，過去3年，汽車需求非常強勁。我們滿足他們的要求。今天，我認為汽車需求在2023 年下半年已經進入庫存調整模式。但是，我們仍然預計汽車需求將在2024 年再次增加，因為越來越多的電動車，越來越多的功能被添加到汽車上，這就是我們看到了什麼。

Now talking about the N7, the 7-nanometer technology, why we have such a low utilization or the revenue decreased. It's go beyond our initial -- our original plan because of we expect the N7 to be very -- fully utilized even now, but it is not. Let me answer the question because of we suddenly have -- in 10 years, the smartphone demand dropped dramatically from about 1.4 billion units to about 1.1 billion now. So that exactly, in this time frame, the N7's utilization has been impacted and followed by one major customer who delayed their product introduction. And so that's why we have a low utilization.

現在談談N7，7奈米技術，為什麼我們的利用率這麼低或收入減少了。它超出了我們最初的計劃，因為我們期望 N7 即使現在也能充分利用，但事實並非如此。讓我回答這個問題，因為我們突然發現——在 10 年內，智慧型手機的需求從大約 14 億部急劇下降到現在的大約 11 億部。因此，在這段時間內，N7 的使用率受到了影響，隨後一位主要客戶推遲了產品推出。這就是我們利用率低的原因。

But saying that, we are confident to backfill our 7-, 6-nanometer capacity with additional wave of specialty demand from consumer, RF, connectivity and other applications and will return to a healthy level of utilization over the next several years. This is very similar to a situation that we have, 28-nanometer back in 2018 and 2019 time frame, okay? At the beginning, it was underutilized for a period of time and we worked hard to -- with our customer and then for developers some specialty technologies and then now we have to expand 28-nanometer specialty capacity. That's the same kind of a story. Brett, did I answer your question?

但話雖如此，我們有信心透過來自消費者、射頻、連接和其他應用的額外專業需求來補充我們的 7 奈米、6 奈米產能，並將在未來幾年恢復到健康的利用率水平。這與 2018 年和 2019 年 28 奈米的情況非常相似，好嗎？一開始，它在一段時間內沒有充分利用，我們努力與我們的客戶合作，然後為開發人員提供一些專業技術，然後現在我們必須擴大 28 奈米專業產能。這是同一個故事。布雷特，我回答你的問題了嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Next one to ask questions, Brad Lin from Bank of America.

下一位提問者是美國銀行的 Brad Lin。

So first of all, congrats on the strong results and then also the impressive gross margin. So I have 2 questions. One is on the end device AI, HAI and the other is on the CPO. So appreciate the management's constructive comments and growth outlook on the HAI.

首先，祝賀我們取得的強勁業績，以及令人印象深刻的毛利率。所以我有兩個問題。一個位於終端設備 AI、HAI 上，另一個位於 CPO 上。因此，感謝管理層對 HAI 的建設性意見和成長前景。

So besides the, well, interesting engagement with the clients, what are the implications for the wafer consumption for the firm? And also, eyeing on the computing power and energy consumption angle on the end device with AI in the -- additional AI functions, should we expect it to reaccelerate the node migration for the end devices? That's my first question.

那麼，除了與客戶進行有趣的接觸之外，對公司的晶圓消耗還有什麼影響呢？此外，從附加人工智慧功能中的人工智慧終端設備的運算能力和能耗角度來看，我們是否應該預期它能夠重新加速終端設備的節點遷移？這是我的第一個問題。

Okay. So Brad's first question is about edge and end device AI. He wants to know what is the implications for wafer consumption?

好的。因此，Brad 的第一個問題是關於邊緣和終端設備人工智慧。他想知道這對晶圓消費有何影響？

And then with the increasing need for energy efficiency and power, he is wondering does this reaccelerate or increase the node for -- I guess, his words is node migration or adoption of leading-edge technologies.

然後，隨著對能源效率和電力的需求不斷增加，他想知道這是否會重新加速或增加節點——我猜，他的話是節點遷移或採用前沿技術。

Well, the edge device start to -- that's including smartphone and PC, start to incorporate the AI functionality inside. We observed some of the newer engines has been added increasingly. So the die size will increase even the unit did not increase dramatically. But the die size is in mid-teens -- or no, not. I mean, mid-single digit is the die size increase so far. And I expect that this kind of trend will continue. And so more and more application of the -- on the AI side, what be incorporated into those kind of edge device. And that one need a very power-efficient chips to put into the edge device, especially when it is mobile.

好吧，邊緣設備——包括智慧型手機和個人電腦——開始在內部融入人工智慧功能。我們觀察到越來越多地添加了一些較新的引擎。因此，即使單位沒有大幅增加，晶片尺寸也會增加。但晶片尺寸只有十幾歲——或者不是，不是。我的意思是，中個位數是迄今為止晶片尺寸的增加。我預計這種趨勢將會持續下去。因此，在人工智慧方面，越來越多的應用被納入此類邊緣設備中。邊緣設備需要非常節能的晶片，尤其是在行動裝置時。

So I do expect -- for my own perspective, I do expect that my customer will move into the leading edge node more and more quickly to compete in the market.

因此，我確實期望 - 從我自己的角度來看，我確實期望我的客戶將越來越快地進入領先節點以參與市場競爭。

So -- well, so a bit of a follow-up is that, well, now it accounts for some mid-single digit of the die size incremental for a chip. So does that -- or are we seeing that to enlarge to something like mid-teens, or well, even bigger in the -- well, mid- to long term?

那麼，接下來的一點是，現在它佔了晶片晶片尺寸增量的一些中間個位數。那麼，或者我們會看到這種情況會擴大到十幾歲左右，或者在中長期內甚至更大？

So Brad's quick follow-up is if the AI portion is kind of mid-single digit now, how should we expect -- can we expect mid-teens or what type of percentage in a few years' time?

因此，布拉德的快速跟進是，如果人工智慧部分現在是中等個位數，我們應該如何預期——我們可以預期幾年後會達到十幾歲左右還是什麼類型的百分比？

Well, I will answer the question. Actually, we see the increase in the die size, but we cannot nail down the, we say, the mid-single digit, but I expect it to start to increase. And whether that will increase our forecast and our growth or something, it's still too early to say to -- at this moment.

好吧，我來回答這個問題。實際上，我們看到晶片尺寸有所增加，但我們無法確定中間個位數，但我預計它會開始增加。無論這是否會增加我們的預測和成長或其他什麼，現在說還為時過早。

Yes, Brad. We are still quantifying the impact from this development. So we're maintaining the previous statement that we expect it to grow to about in 5 years about mid-single digits -- I'm sorry, mid-teens of our revenue.

是的，布拉德。我們仍在量化這項發展的影響。因此，我們維持先前的聲明，即我們預計其收入將在 5 年內增長到大約個位數左右——對不起，是我們收入的十幾歲左右。

Yes. I think, Brad, probably just very simply, as we said, edge AI, we do see some activity. It will drive silicon content, but this will occur over time, okay? And we don't have any quantitative number to share, all right?

是的。我認為，布拉德，可能只是非常簡單，正如我們所說，邊緣人工智慧，我們確實看到了一些活動。它會提高矽含量，但這會隨著時間的推移而發生，好嗎？我們沒有任何定量數據可以分享，好嗎？

Got it.

知道了。

Okay. What is your second question?

好的。你的第二個問題是什麼？

Okay. So the second question is on CPO. So basically, we have learned that TSMC is doing quite well, also leading the industry in CPO or so-called silicon photonics, and has introduced a platform to clients with the technology. So may we learn the opportunities and implications of the new technology for the industry and for our firm? And also, should we expect the platform to offer additional competitive advantage for TSMC in the mid to long run?

好的。所以第二個問題是關於CPO的。所以基本上，我們了解到台積電做得很好，在CPO或所謂的矽光子學方面也處於行業領先地位，並且已經向客戶推出了具有該技術的平台。那麼我們是否可以了解新科技對產業和我們公司的機會和影響？此外，從中長期來看，我們是否應該預期該平台為台積電提供額外的競爭優勢？

So Brad, your second question is on silicon photonics. Is that correct?

布拉德，你的第二個問題是關於矽光子學的。那是對的嗎？

Yes.

是的。

So he wants to know our positioning or progress on silicon photonics, how important is this and will this be a competitive advantage for TSMC going forward in the future.

所以他想了解我們在矽光子方面的定位或進展，這有多重要，這是否會成為台積電未來的競爭優勢。

Okay. Let me answer that question. Silicon photonics actually is growing its importance because of just a larger amount of data need to be collected, processed and transferred in an energy-efficient manner. Silicon photonics tends to be the best fit to that role. And TSMC have been working on silicon photonics for years, and most importantly, we're collaborating with multiple leading customer to support their innovations in this field.

好的。讓我回答這個問題。事實上，矽光子學的重要性正在日益增強，因為需要以節能的方式收集、處理和傳輸大量資料。矽光子學往往最適合這個角色。台積電多年來一直致力於矽光子學，最重要的是，我們正在與多個領先客戶合作，以支持他們在該領域的創新。

It takes a lot of time to develop the technology and to build the capacity. And when we increase the volume production, we believe that TSMC's silicon photonics will be the best technology and -- when customer roll out all their innovations. But as I said, it's gradually increasing in their activity and gradually increasing their demand as of today.

開發技術和建設能力需要大量時間。當我們增加產量時，我們相信台積電的矽光子學將是最好的技術——當客戶推出他們所有的創新時。但正如我所說，從今天開始，他們的活動逐漸增加，需求也逐漸增加。

Got it.

知道了。

Next one, we have Sunny Lin from UBS.

下一位是來自瑞銀的 Sunny Lin。

So my first question is on advanced packaging. Incrementally, we are hearing more customer interest in the adoption to achieve better heterogeneous integrations. But want to get your thoughts on what could be the potential impact of customers relying a bit more on packaging to improve the system performance and perhaps less on the process migration given cost considerations.

我的第一個問題是關於先進封裝的。我們逐漸聽到越來越多的客戶對採用該技術來實現更好的異質整合感興趣。但希望了解您對客戶更依賴封裝來提高系統效能以及考慮到成本考慮而更少依賴流程遷移可能產生的潛在影響的想法。

Meanwhile, SoIC has been introduced for quite a while, whereas the customer adoption still seems to be limited at this point. And so when should we expect a more meaningful pickup of SoIC? And what could be the major catalyst?

與此同時，SoIC 已經推出相當長一段時間了，但目前客戶的採用似乎仍然受到限制。那麼我們什麼時候應該期待 SoIC 的更有意義的發展呢？主要的催化劑是什麼？

Okay. So Sunny, sorry, I may have missed a little bit of the first part. But I think her question is on overall advanced packaging. Looking at this trend and the move to more, of course, heterogeneous integration, what are the cost implications and how does this advanced packaging work go together with the process technology standpoint? And then also a question about the update or progress of SoIC. Is that correct, Sunny?

好的。所以桑尼，抱歉，我可能錯過了第一部分的一些內容。但我認為她的問題是關於整體先進封裝。考慮到這一趨勢以及向更多異質整合的轉變，成本影響是什麼？這種先進的封裝工作如何與製程技術的觀點結合？然後還有一個關於SoIC的更新或進展的問題。這是正確的嗎，桑尼？

Well, so maybe if I may clarify, but -- so for the first part, I wonder if customers may consider relying a bit more on packaging whereas slowing down a bit on the process migration because of increasing costs.

好吧，也許我可以澄清一下，但是，對於第一部分，我想知道客戶是否會考慮更多地依賴包裝，同時由於成本增加而放慢流程遷移的速度。

Okay. So she's asking, will customers -- because of the increasing cost of the process technologies, will customers rely more on advanced packaging as a result.

好的。所以她問，由於製程技術成本的增加，客戶是否會因此更加依賴先進的封裝。

Let me answer that. It's not because of increasing of the cost in the more advanced node. And actually, they tried to -- our customers tried to maximize the system performance. That's the major portion. That, including the kind of speed improvement or the power consumption decrease, all those kind of things, put all together, maybe cost is also part of the consideration which we noticed about. And so more and more customers are moving into the very advanced technology node and they start to adopt the [chipless] approaches.

讓我來回答一下。這並不是因為更先進節點的成本增加。事實上，他們試圖——我們的客戶試圖最大限度地提高系統效能。這是主要部分。包括速度的提高或功耗的降低，所有這些事情加在一起，也許成本也是我們注意到的考慮因素的一部分。因此，越來越多的客戶正在進入非常先進的技術節點，並開始採用[無晶片]方法。

And so no matter what, TSMC provide industry-leading solution in both very leading technology and also very advanced packaging technology and to work with our customer for their product and have a best system performance.

因此，無論如何，台積電在非常領先的技術和非常先進的封裝技術方面都提供業界領先的解決方案，並與我們的客戶合作，為他們的產品提供最佳的系統性能。

And the other one is you are asking about the SoIC, when it will become a high volume and a more substantial revenue for TSMC. It's coming. It's coming. Actually, the customer already ready to announce their new product, which are widely adopt. And I expect starting from now and next year, the SoIC will generate revenue and become one of the faster-growing advanced packaging solution in the next few years.

另一個是你問的是SoC，什麼時候它會變得很大，並且對台積電來說是一個更可觀的收入。它來了。它來了。事實上，客戶已經準備好發布他們的新產品，並且該產品已被廣泛採用。我預計從現在到明年，SoIC將產生收入，並成為未來幾年成長較快的先進封裝解決方案之一。

Got it. If I may, a quick follow-up. Three months ago, you had a target to double your CoWoS capacities. And just now you mentioned AI demand continued to surprise on the upside. So wonder if there's any update on your CoWoS capacity expansion?

知道了。如果可以的話，請快速跟進。三個月前，您的目標是將 CoWoS 容量提高一倍。剛才您提到人工智慧需求持續呈現出乎意料的上升趨勢。那麼請問你們的CoWoS擴容方面是否有任何更新？

Okay. So I will take this as your second question, Sunny, but she's asking about CoWoS expansion. We had said that we will double the capacity 3 months ago. Can we provide an update on the overall CoWoS capacity. And I guess, CapEx and capacity go hand-in-hand, what is our plan.

好的。所以我將把這個作為你的第二個問題，Sunny，但她問的是 CoWoS 擴展。我們三個月前就說過要把產能增加一倍。我們能否提供 CoWoS 整體容量的最新資訊？我想，資本支出和產能是並進的，我們的計畫是什麼。

Well, Sunny, the last time we said that we will double our CoWoS capacity, we are working very hard to increase the capacity more than double, but today is limited by my supplier's capability or their capacity. So we still maintain that we will double our CoWoS capacity by the end of 2024. But the total output actually is more than double from 2023 to 2024 because of a very high demand in -- from our customer. So actually then this kind of a trend will continue to increase our CoWoS capacity to support our customers even into 2025.

好吧，Sunny，上次我們說我們將把我們的 CoWoS 產能增加一倍，我們正在非常努力地將產能增加一倍以上，但今天受到我的供應商的能力或他們的能力的限制。因此，我們仍然堅持到 2024 年底將 CoWoS 產能增加一倍。但由於我們客戶的需求非常高，從 2023 年到 2024 年，總產量實際上增加了一倍多。因此，實際上這種趨勢將繼續增加我們的 CoWoS 能力，以支援我們的客戶，甚至到 2025 年。

Next one, please welcome Mehdi Hosseini from SIG.

下一篇，請歡迎來自 SIG 的 Mehdi Hosseini。

I understand there are a number of new products that you're ramping into year-end and into first half of '24 in various -- for various end markets. And I want to understand how the ramp of these new products are to impact the seasonality. Could we see a scenario where in the first half, the ramp of these new products, especially like the leading edge, to somewhat offset the seasonal factors? Any thoughts there? And I have a follow-up.

據我所知，你們將在年底和 24 年上半年針對不同的終端市場推出許多新產品。我想了解這些新產品的成長如何影響季節性。我們能否看到上半年這些新產品（尤其是前沿產品）的成長能夠在一定程度上抵銷季節性因素？有什麼想法嗎？我有一個後續行動。

All right. Mehdi. Well, Mehdi's first question is in terms of new products, which, of course, customer products, we don't comment on, but he said we are ramping products into the second half and so how will this ramp of new products go is into -- as we go into first half '24? And can this offset or mitigate some of the seasonality.

好的。邁赫迪。嗯，邁赫迪的第一個問題是關於新產品，當然，我們不會評論客戶產品，但他說我們正在將產品推向下半年，所以新產品的增加將如何進行？— 當我們進入24 年上半場時？這是否可以抵消或減輕一些季節性因素。

No. Let me rephrase that, contribution of customers' new products. And how would that impact -- or how could that offset seasonal factors.

不，讓我重新表達一下，客戶新產品的貢獻。這將如何影響——或如何抵消季節性因素。

Yes. Mehdi, I don't think we can comment on specific customer products, but I can tell you that we're not seeing any dramatic change in the seasonality as of now.

是的。 Mehdi，我認為我們無法對特定的客戶產品發表評論，但我可以告訴您，到目前為止，我們沒有看到季節性發生任何巨大變化。

Okay. Because I'm looking at your year -- calendar '23, and given your Q4 guide, you're actually doing better than what you guided 3 months ago. Firstly, you said revenues could be down 10% U.S. dollar and now it could actually be down high single digit. Is that a combination of a stronger new product ramp and better pricing? Is that a fair assessment?

好的。因為我正在查看您的 23 年日曆，並根據您的第四季度指南，您實際上比 3 個月前的指導做得更好。首先，您說收入可能會下降 10%（美元），但現在實際上可能會下降高個位數。這是更強勁的新產品成長和更好的定價的結合嗎？這是一個公平的評價嗎？

Okay. So Mehdi is really looking at -- he rightly notes that 3 months ago we said this year we'll decline around 10% in U.S. dollar term. Now with the fourth quarter implied guidance, it's slightly better. So he wants to know what is the implication or behind this.

好的。因此，邁赫迪確實在考慮——他正確地指出，3 個月前我們表示，今年以美元計算，我們將下跌 10% 左右。現在有了第四季的隱含指導，情況稍好。所以他想知道，這背後到底有什麼意義。

Well, let me give you one simple reason: because our ramp-up of N3, because of the demand of N3 is strong, so we ramped up quickly to meet customers' demand. So the final result is better than we expected 3 months ago.

好吧，我給你一個簡單的理由：因為我們N3的爬坡，因為N3的需求很強勁，所以我們快速爬坡以滿足客戶的需求。所以最終的結果比我們3個月前的預期還要好。

Yes. And we have also said that strong ramp of N3 will continue in next year, okay? That's about all the seasonality color we can give.

是的。我們也說過N3的強勁成長將在明年持續，好嗎？這就是我們所能提供的所有季節性色彩。

Got you. Okay. And then perhaps, if I were to ask a second question. I just want to better understand your view on your customers' inventory correction. We're reaching the bottom where we don't have any visibility on how quickly they're going to refresh inventory. The slope of the recovery is still not clear. Did I understand you correctly?

明白你了。好的。然後也許，如果我要問第二個問題。我只是想更了解您對客戶庫存修正的看法。我們已經觸底，無法了解他們刷新庫存的速度。復甦的斜率仍不清楚。我對你的理解正確嗎？

So Mehdi's second question, he would like to clarify. So are we saying that customers' inventory is reaching or approaching the bottom, but the slope of the inventory is not clear. Is that what we are saying?

邁赫迪想澄清第二個問題。那麼我們是否說客戶的庫存已經到達或接近底部，但庫存的斜率並不明顯。這就是我們所說的嗎？

Okay. I'll answer the question. Actually, in these couple months, we start to see the demand stabilized in the PC and smartphone end market. And in fact, we see some kind of an urgent PO ask for more device to be shipped to their place to meet the demand. That give us a hint of their inventory control already become more -- healthier than we thought.

好的。我來回答這個問題。事實上，這幾個月，我們開始看到PC和智慧型手機終端市場的需求趨於穩定。事實上，我們看到某種緊急採購訂單要求將更多設備運送到他們的所在地以滿足需求。這向我們暗示，他們的庫存控制已經變得比我們想像的更健康。

So in terms of uncertain macro, it probably will continue but our expectation is very close to a healthy condition. So that's why we say we can expect 2024 to be healthy growth year for TSMC. Mehdi, did I answer your question?

因此，就宏觀不確定性而言，這種情況可能會持續下去，但我們的預期非常接近健康狀況。這就是為什麼我們說 2024 年將是台積電健康成長的一年。邁赫迪，我回答你的問題了嗎？

Great.

偉大的。

Next one to ask question is Krish Sankar from TD Cowen.

下一位提問者是來自 TD Cowen 的 Krish Sankar。

I have two of them. First one is on gross margin. When do you expect N3 to reach corporate average gross margin?

我有兩個。第一個是毛利率。您預計N3什麼時候能達到企業平均毛利率？

And as you look into next year, as more mature node capacity comes online across the industry, how to think about mature node gross margins also? And I have a follow-up after that.

展望明年，隨著更多成熟節點容量在整個產業上線，如何考慮成熟節點毛利率？之後我有一個後續行動。

Okay. So Krish's first question is on gross margin. When do we expect 3-nanometer -- or N3, I should say, to reach the corporate average gross margin? And how do we see the gross margin trend for the more mature nodes.

好的。因此，克里什的第一個問題是毛利率。我們預計 3 奈米（或者我應該說 N3）什麼時候才能達到企業平均毛利率？以及我們如何看待更成熟節點的毛利率趨勢。

Yes. Krish, in the past, our leading nodes normally reach gross margins -- corporate margin in about 8 quarters. But as we progress with more and more leading nodes, it will become more and more challenging because of several reasons.

是的。 Krish，過去，我們的領先節點通常會在大約 8 個季度內達到毛利率——企業利潤率。但隨著我們的領先節點越來越多，由於多種原因，它會變得越來越具有挑戰性。

Well, first of all, our corporate margin is higher than before. And secondly, the leading node, as I just said, is becoming more and more complex. And also, in the past few years, the inflation pressure that was not expected also contribute the higher cost in the N3.

嗯，首先，我們的企業利潤率比以前更高了。其次，正如我剛才所說，主導節點變得越來越複雜。而且，過去幾年，未預料到的通膨壓力也導致了N3成本的上升。

So it's going to be pretty challenging for future leading nodes to reach corporate margin as in before -- like before in the same time frame.

因此，對於未來的領先節點來說，要像以前一樣在同一時間範圍內達到以前的企業利潤率將是相當具有挑戰性的。

The mature nodes. I can tell you that our mature nodes are -- the gross margins are really congregated around the corporate average in a pretty narrow band because we focus on specialty technology. It's not a commodity capacity. Yes.

成熟節點。我可以告訴你，我們成熟的節點是——毛利率實際上集中在公司平均水平的一個相當窄的範圍內，因為我們專注於專業技術。這不是商品容量。是的。

That's very helpful. And then I'll -- and then as a follow-up. On Arizona, you mentioned that you'd hired about 1,100 local employees. I'm kind of curious, is that critical mass enough for you to start 4-nanometer production? Or do you have another target level of employees before they can actually start getting this production since you're still maintaining the output to being first half of 2025?

這非常有幫助。然後我會——然後作為後續行動。在亞利桑那州，您提到您僱用了大約 1,100 名當地員工。我有點好奇，這個臨界質量足以讓你們開始 4 奈米生產嗎？或者，由於您仍將產量維持在 2025 年上半年，因此在他們真正開始生產之前，您是否還有另一個目標員工水準？

Okay. So thank you, Krish. So Krish's second question is about our first fab in Arizona. He notes that we have said we hired 1,100 local employees. So his question, is this enough critical mass or enough people basically to support the ramp of the first fab as we planned, as we said today in first half '25.

好的。所以謝謝你，克里什。克里什的第二個問題是關於我們在亞利桑那州的第一家工廠。他指出，我們說過我們僱用了 1,100 名當地員工。所以他的問題是，正如我們今天在 25 年上半年所說的那樣，是否有足夠的臨界質量或足夠的人員基本上支持我們計劃的第一座晶圓廠的擴建。

Of course. We continue to hire the local talent to join TSMC's fab in Arizona. So when we start to have a volume production, we are confident that we will have enough resources to support our ramp-up in Arizona.

當然。我們繼續聘請當地人才加入台積電位於亞利桑那州的晶圓廠。因此，當我們開始大量生產時，我們相信我們將有足夠的資源來支持我們在亞利桑那州的產能擴張。

The last one to ask question, Charles Shi from Needham.

最後一個提問的是李約瑟的 Charles Shi。

First off, I really want to congratulate TSMC for delivering good results for Q3 and very good guidance for Q4. But I want to really call out the reported revenue for 5-nanometer in the third quarter. It looks like you are showing some really good countercyclical strength and probably a record high.

首先，我真的要祝賀台積電在第三季度取得了良好的業績，並為第四季度提供了非常好的指導。但我想真正指出第三季 5 奈米的報告收入。看起來你正在表現出一些非常好的反週期強度，並且可能創下歷史新高。

I want to understand the rebound in the 5-nanometer business in Q3. Is that going to be more in the following quarters? And what's behind that? And relative -- let's say, your expectation like 3 to 6 months ago when you were reducing the '23 outlook, is 5-nanometer doing better than expected? And how has the demand trended in the last 2, 3 months for 5-nanometer?

我想了解一下第三季5奈米業務的反彈情況。接下來的幾季會更多嗎？這背後是什麼？相對而言，就像 3 到 6 個月前您降低 23 前景時的預期一樣，5 奈米的表現是否比預期更好？過去2、3個月5奈米的需求趨勢如何？

Okay. So Charles' first question is about 5-nanometer. He's asking in the very near term, he notes that he saw very strong sequential revenue increase in the third quarter so he's wondering what is driving this. And then he's asking about what is the outlook for the next 3 to 6 months for 5-nanometer specifically.

好的。所以 Charles 的第一個問題是關於 5 奈米的。他在近期詢問，他指出，他看到第三季的收入連續強勁增長，因此他想知道是什麼推動了這一增長。然後他特別詢問了未來 3 到 6 個月 5 奈米技術的前景如何。

Yes. Charles, I can share with you the increase in revenue, N5, in the third quarter mainly comes from 2 platforms, HPC and smartphone. HPC also includes the AI-related demand. Smartphone, basically, customers -- some customers' product seasonalities.

是的。 Charles，我可以跟大家分享一下，N5第三季的營收成長主要來自2個平台，HPC和智慧型手機。 HPC也包括AI相關的需求。智慧型手機，基本上是客戶－有些客戶的產品季節性。

Now forward-looking wise, I'm not going to share with you, but we will tell you in January what actual the next quarter N5 revenue will be the overall revenue.

現在展望未來，我不會與您分享，但我們將在一月份告訴您下個季度 N5 的實際收入將是整體收入。

The overall revenue. We don't provide revenue by process node, okay? What's your second question, Charles?

總體收入。我們不按流程節點提供收入，好嗎？你的第二個問題是什麼，查爾斯？

Yes. The other question is about CapEx. It sounds like that you're expecting CapEx on absolute dollar might still grow going forward. I know that's a long-term comment. But I look at the near term, TSMC CapEx seems to be running at USD 7 billion per quarter in the second half '23, which kind of is at $28 billion annualized run rate.

是的。另一個問題是關於資本支出。聽起來您預期絕對美元的資本支出未來可能仍會成長。我知道這是一個長期的評論。但從近期來看，台積電的資本支出似乎在 23 年下半年每季達到 70 億美元，年化運作率為 280 億美元。

But if we are expecting total CapEx for '24 to grow in dollar term over '23, it seems like you're expecting CapEx ramp in 2024. Maybe that's your planning for some of the CapEx ramp in '24. Is that the right way to think about the CapEx? Is $7 billion really like the really bottom level run rate for TSMC CapEx at this point?

但如果我們預計 24 年的總資本支出以美元計算將超過 23 年，那麼您似乎預計 2024 年資本支出將有所增加。也許這就是您對 24 年部分資本支出增加的計劃。這是考慮資本支出的正確方法嗎？ 70 億美元真的是台積電目前資本支出的最低運作率嗎？

All right. So Charles' second question is also -- is on CapEx. Basically, he's saying given the guidance he's looking at our CapEx, it's running at about USD 7 billion run rate. So he is assuming -- or although we do not comment on '24, he's assuming if next year's CapEx dollar amount is going to increase, but if we're running at $7 billion run rate, does that imply $28 billion, how should he reconcile this.

好的。所以查爾斯的第二個問題也是關於資本支出。基本上，他說，根據他正在研究的資本支出指導，它的運行速度約為 70 億美元。所以他假設——或者雖然我們不對 24 年發表評論，但他假設明年的資本支出金額是否會增加，但如果我們以 70 億美元的運行速度運行，這是否意味著 280 億美元，他應該如何調和這一點。

Charles, every year, the CapEx is invested based on the future opportunity to growth and we invested to capture those future opportunities. Too early to talk about 2024, really. We will share the guidance with you in January quarterly release.

查爾斯，每年，資本支出都會根據未來的成長機會進行投資，我們進行投資是為了抓住這些未來的機會。談論 2024 年確實還為時過早。我們將在一月份的季度發布中與您分享該指南。

Okay. All right. Thank you, Charles. Thank you, everyone. This concludes our Q&A session.

好的。好的。謝謝你，查爾斯。謝謝大家。我們的問答環節到此結束。

Before we conclude today's conference, please be advised that the replay of the conference will be accessible within 30 minutes from now. The transcript will become available 24 hours from now. Both of these, you -- are available and you can find through TSMC's website at www.tsmc.com.

在我們結束今天的會議之前，請注意，會議重播將在 30 分鐘內提供。成績單將於 24 小時後提供。您可以透過台積電的網站 www.tsmc.com 找到這兩種服務。

So thank you, everyone, for taking the time to join us today. We hope everyone continues to be well, and we hope to see you join us again in January. Goodbye, and have a good day. Thank you.

謝謝大家今天抽空加入我們。我們希望每個人都一切順利，並希望在一月份看到您再次加入我們。再見，祝你有美好的一天。謝謝。