台積電 ADR (TSM) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

(foreign language) Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TSMC's Fourth Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference and Conference Call. It's great to see everyone in person once again. This is Jeff Su, TSMC's Director of Investor Relations and your host for today. Today's event is being webcast live through TSMC's website at www.tsmc.com, where you can also download the earnings release materials. (Operator Instructions)

（外文）大家下午好，歡迎參加台積電2023年第四季財報發表會及電話會議。很高興再次見到大家。我是台積電投資者關係總監 Jeff Su，也是今天的主持人。今天的活動透過台積電網站 www.tsmc.com 進行網路直播，您也可以在其中下載財報發布資料。 （操作員說明）

The format for today's event will be as follows: First, TSMC's Vice President and CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, will summarize our operations in the fourth quarter 2023 and full year of 2023, followed by our guidance for the first quarter 2024. Afterwards Mr. Huang, TSMC's CEO, Dr. C. C. Wei; and TSMC's Chairman, Dr. Mark Liu, will jointly provide the company's key messages. Then TSMC's Chairman, Dr. Mark Liu, will host the Q&A session where all 3 of our executives will take your questions.

今天活動的形式如下：首先，台積電副總裁兼財務長黃文德爾先生將總結我們2023年第四季和2023年全年的營運情況，然後是我們對2024年第一季的指導。黃，台積電首席執行官，魏長城博士；台積電董事長劉馬克博士將共同發表公司的關鍵資訊。然後台積電董事長劉馬克博士將主持問答環節，我們的三位高階主管將回答您的問題。

As usual, I'd like to remind everybody that today's discussions may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to differ materially from those contained in the forward-looking statements. Please refer to the safe harbor notice that appears on our press release.

像往常一樣，我想提醒大家，今天的討論可能包含前瞻性陳述，這些陳述存在重大風險和不確定性，這可能導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述中包含的結果有重大差異。請參閱我們新聞稿中的安全港通知。

And now I would like to turn the microphone over to TSMC's CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, for the summary of operations and the current quarter guidance.

現在我想把麥克風交給台積電首席財務官黃文德爾先生，讓他總結營運情況和當前季度的指導。

Thank you, Jeff. Happy New Year, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. My presentation will start with financial highlights for the fourth quarter and recap of full year 2023. After that, I will provide the guidance for the first quarter 2024.

謝謝你，傑夫。祝大家新年快樂。感謝您今天加入我們。我的演講將從第四季度的財務亮點開始，並回顧 2023 年全年。之後，我將提供 2024 年第一季的指導。

Fourth quarter revenue increased 14.4% sequentially in NT dollar or 13.6% in U.S. dollars, as our fourth quarter business was supported by the continued strong ramp of our industry-leading 3-nanometer technology. Gross margin decreased 1.3 percentage points sequentially to 53%, primarily due to margin dilution from 3-nanometer ramp.

第四季營收以新台幣計算季增 14.4%，以美元計算環比成長 13.6%，因為我們第四季的業務受到業界領先的 3 奈米技術持續強勁成長的支持。毛利率較上月下降 1.3 個百分點至 53%，主要是由於 3 奈米製程的利潤稀釋。

Operating margin decreased 0.1 percentage points sequentially to 41.6%, slightly ahead of our guidance, mainly due to operating leverage on higher revenue. Overall, our fourth quarter EPS was TWD 9.21 and ROE was 28.1%. Now let me move on to revenue by technology.

營業利潤率比上一季下降 0.1 個百分點，至 41.6%，略高於我們的指引，主要是由於收入增加帶來的營業槓桿。整體而言，我們第四季的 EPS 為新台幣 9.21，ROE 為 28.1%。現在讓我談談科技帶來的收入。

The 3-nanometer process technology contributed to 15% of wafer revenue in the fourth quarter, while 5-nanometer and 7-nanometer accounted for 35% and 17%, respectively. Advanced technologies, defined as 7-nanometer and below, accounted for 67% of wafer revenue.

3奈米製程技術貢獻了第四季晶圓收入的15%，而5奈米和7奈米分別佔35%和17%。 7 奈米及以下的先進技術佔晶圓收入的 67%。

On a full year basis, 3-nanometer revenue contribution came in at 6% of 2023 wafer revenue, 5-nanometer was 33% and 7-nanometer was 19%. Advanced technologies accounted for 58% of total wafer revenue, up from 53% in 2022.

從全年來看，3奈米營收貢獻佔2023年晶圓營收的6%，5奈米為33%，7奈米為19%。先進技術佔晶圓總收入的 58%，高於 2022 年的 53%。

Moving on to revenue contribution by platform. HPC increased 17% quarter-over-quarter to account for 43% of our fourth quarter revenue. Smartphone increased 27% to account for 43%. IoT decreased 29% to account for 5%. Automotive increased 13% to account for 5%. And DCE decreased 35% to account for 2%. On a full year basis, smartphone, IoT, DCE decreased 8%, 17% and 16%, respectively. HPC remained flat, while automotive increased 15% in 2023. Overall, HPC accounted for 43% of our 2023 revenue; smartphone, 38%; IoT, 8%; and automotive, 6%.

接下來是平台的營收貢獻。 HPC 環比成長 17%，佔第四季營收的 43%。智慧型手機成長了 27%，達到 43%。 IoT 下降 29%，佔 5%。汽車產業成長了 13%，達到 5%。大商所佔比下降35%至2%。全年來看，智慧型手機、物聯網、大連商品交易所分別下降 8%、17% 和 16%。 HPC 保持平穩，而汽車行業在 2023 年增長 15%。總體而言，HPC 占我們 2023 年收入的 43%；智慧型手機，38%；物聯網，8%；和汽車業，6%。

Moving on to the balance sheet. We ended the fourth quarter with cash and marketable securities of TWD 1.7 trillion or USD 55 billion. On the liability side, current liabilities decreased by TWD 56 billion, mainly due to the decrease in accounts payable. On financial ratios, accounts receivable days decreased 4 days to 31 days, while days of inventory also declined 11 days to 85 days, primarily due to higher 3-nanometer wafer shipment.

繼續看資產負債表。截至第四季末，我們的現金和有價證券為新台幣 1.7 兆，即 550 億美元。負債方面，流動負債減少560億元新台幣，主要是應付帳款減少所致。財務比率方面，應收帳款天數減少 4 天至 31 天，庫存天數也減少 11 天至 85 天，主要是由於 3 奈米晶圓出貨量增加。

Regarding cash flow and CapEx. During the fourth quarter, we generated about TWD 395 billion in cash from operations, spent TWD 170 billion in CapEx and distributed TWD 78 billion for the first quarter '23 cash dividend. Overall, our cash balance increased TWD 154 billion to TWD 1.47 trillion at the end of the quarter. In U.S. dollar terms, our fourth quarter capital expenditures totaled TWD 5.24 billion.

關於現金流和資本支出。第四季度，我們從營運中產生了約 3,950 億新台幣的現金，在資本支出上花費了 1,700 億新台幣，並為 23 年第一季度的現金股息分配了 780 億新台幣。總體而言，本季末我們的現金餘額增加了 1,540 億新台幣，達到 1.47 兆新台幣。以美元計算，我們第四季的資本支出總計為新台幣 52.4 億。

Now let's look at the recap of our performance in 2023. 2023 was a challenging year for the global semiconductor industry, but our technology leadership enable TSMC to outperform the foundry industry. Our revenue decreased 8.7% in U.S. dollar terms to USD 69 billion or decreased 4.5% in NT terms to TWD 2.16 trillion. Gross margin decreased 5.2 percentage points to 54.4%, mainly reflecting lower overall capacity utilization in 3-nanometer ramp, partially offset by a more favorable foreign exchange rate.

現在讓我們回顧一下我們2023年的表現。2023年對於全球半導體產業來說是充滿挑戰的一年，但我們的技術領先使台積電能夠超越代工產業。我們的收入以美元計算下降 8.7% 至 690 億美元，以新台幣計算下降 4.5% 至新台幣 2.16 兆。毛利率下降 5.2 個百分點至 54.4%，主要反映 3 奈米產能利用率較低，但部分被更有利的匯率所抵銷。

To extend our technology leadership, we continue to expand our R&D investment in 3-nanometer and 2-nanometer development despite a lower revenue base in 2023. Thus, operating margin decreased 6.9 percentage points to 42.6%. Overall, full year EPS declined 17.5% to TWD 32.34 and ROE was 26.2%. On cash flow, we spent USD 30.45 billion or TWD 950 billion in CapEx, while generating TWD 1.7 trillion in operating cash flow and TWD 292 billion in free cash flow. We also paid TWD 292 billion in cash dividends in 2023.

為了擴大我們的技術領先地位，儘管 2023 年收入基礎較低，我們仍繼續擴大對 3 奈米和 2 奈米開發的研發投資。因此，營業利潤率下降 6.9 個百分點，至 42.6%。整體而言，全年每股盈餘下降 17.5% 至新台幣 32.34 元，淨資產收益率 (ROE) 為 26.2%。在現金流方面，我們的資本支出為 304.5 億美元，即 9,500 億新台幣，同時產生了 1.7 兆新台幣的營運現金流和 2,920 億新台幣的自由現金流。 2023年我們還派發了2,920億新台幣的現金股利。

I have finished my financial summary. Now let's turn to our current quarter guidance. We expect our business in the first quarter to be impacted by smartphone seasonality, partially offset by continued HPC-related demand. Based on the current business outlook, we expect our first quarter revenue to be between USD 18 billion and USD 18.8 billion, which represents a 6.2% sequential decline at the midpoint. Based on the exchange rate assumption of USD 1 to TWD 31.1, gross margin is expected to be between 52% and 54%, operating margin between 40% and 42%. This concludes my financial presentation.

我已經完成了財務摘要。現在讓我們轉向當前季度的指導。我們預計第一季的業務將受到智慧型手機季節性的影響，但部分將被持續的 HPC 相關需求所抵消。根據目前的業務前景，我們預計第一季營收將在 180 億美元至 188 億美元之間，季減 6.2%。根據1美元兌31.1新台幣的匯率假設，毛利率預計在52%至54%之間，營業利潤率在40%至42%之間。我的財務報告到此結束。

Now let me turn to our key messages. I will start by making some comments on our fourth quarter '23 and first quarter '24 profitability. Compared to third quarter, our fourth quarter gross margin decreased by 130 basis points sequentially to 53%, primarily due to the margin dilution from the continued ramp-up of our 3-nanometer technology. We have just guided our first quarter gross margin to be flat sequentially at 53% at the midpoint, primarily as a less favorable foreign exchange rate assumption. It's offset by product mix changes due to smartphone seasonality.

現在讓我談談我們的關鍵訊息。我將首先對我們 23 年第四季和 24 年第一季的獲利能力發表一些評論。與第三季相比，我們第四季的毛利率環比下降了 130 個基點至 53%，這主要是由於我們的 3 奈米技術的持續提升導致利潤攤薄。我們剛剛將第一季的毛利率指引為與上一季持平，為中點 53%，這主要是由於匯率假設較不利。它被智慧型手機季節性導致的產品組合變化所抵消。

Looking at full year 2024, given the 6 factors that determine our profitability, there are a few puts and takes I would like to share. On the plus side, we expect our utilization rate to rise in 2024 as our business recovers. However, as we move -- as we have said before, N3 is expected to dilute our gross margin by about 3 to 4 percentage points for the full year of 2024 as the revenue contribution will be much higher than in 2023.

展望2024年全年，考慮到決定我們獲利能力的6個因素，我想分享一些看法。從好的方面來說，隨著我們業務的復甦，我們預計 2024 年利用率將會上升。然而，正如我們之前所說，隨著我們的發展，N3 預計將在 2024 年全年將我們的毛利率稀釋約 3 至 4 個百分點，因為收入貢獻將遠高於 2023 年。

In addition, we have a strategy so that some of our N3 capacity can be supported by N5 tools given the strong multiyear demand. Such a plan will enable higher capital efficiency in the mid to long term, but requires cost and effort in the near term. Most of this conversion will occur in second half of 2024, and we expect it to dilute our gross margin by about 1 to 2 percentage points in second half of 2024.

此外，鑑於多年的強勁需求，我們制定了一項策略，以便 N5 工具可以支援我們的部分 N3 產能。這樣的計劃將在中長期實現更高的資本效率，但在短期內需要成本和努力。大部分轉換將發生在 2024 年下半年，我們預計這將在 2024 年下半年稀釋我們的毛利率約 1 至 2 個百分點。

Finally, we have no control over the foreign exchange rate, but that might be another factor in 2024. Long term, excluding the impact of foreign exchange rate and considering our global manufacturing footprint expansion plans, we continue to forecast a long-term gross margin of 53% and higher is achievable.

最後，我們無法控制匯率，但這可能是2024年的另一個因素。長期來看，排除匯率的影響並考慮我們的全球製造足跡擴張計劃，我們繼續預測長期毛利率53% 或更高是可以實現的。

Next, let me talk about our 2024 capital budget and depreciation. Every year, our CapEx is spent in anticipation of the growth that will follow in future years. In 2023, we spent USD 30.4 billion, lower than our prior guidance of approximately USD 32 billion, as we continue to tighten up our capital spending where appropriate given the near-term uncertainties.

接下來我說一下我們2024年的資本預算和折舊。每年，我們的資本支出都用於預測未來幾年的成長。 2023 年，我們支出 304 億美元，低於先前約 320 億美元的指導，因為考慮到近期的不確定性，我們繼續酌情收緊資本支出。

In 2024, our capital budget is expected to be between USD 28 billion and USD 32 billion as we continue to invest to support customers' growth. Out of the USD 28 billion to USD 32 billion CapEx for 2024, between 70% and 80% of the capital budget will be allocated for the advanced process technologies, about 10% to 20% will be spent for specialty technologies and about 10% will be spent for advanced packaging, testing, mask making and others. Our depreciation expense is expected to increase close to 30% year-over-year in 2024, mainly as we ramp up our 3-nanometer technologies.

到 2024 年，我們的資本預算預計將在 280 億美元至 320 億美元之間，因為我們將繼續投資以支持客戶的成長。 2024 年 280 億美元至 320 億美元的資本支出中，70% 至 80% 的資本預算將用於先進製程技術，約 10% 至 20% 將用於特種技術，約 10% 將用於特種技術。用於先進封裝、測試、掩模製造等。到 2024 年，我們的折舊費用預計將年增近 30%，主要是因為我們加大了 3 奈米技術的投入。

Finally, let me make some comments on our long-term CapEx and cash dividend distribution policy. At TSMC, a higher level of capital expenditures is always correlated with higher growth opportunities in the following years. In the past few years, we have sharply increased our CapEx spending in preparation to capture or harvest the growth opportunities from HPC, AI and 5G megatrends.

最後，我對我們的長期資本支出和現金股利分配政策發表一些評論。在台積電，較高的資本支出水準始終與未來幾年較高的成長機會相關。在過去幾年中，我們大幅增加了資本支出，以準備抓住或收穫 HPC、AI 和 5G 大趨勢帶來的成長機會。

Despite a challenging 2023, our revenue remains well on track to grow between 15% and 20% CAGR over the next several years in U.S. dollar terms, which is the target we communicated back in January 2022 Investor Conference. With our 2024 CapEx guidance of USD 28 billion to USD 32 billion, the rate of increase of our capital spending has begun to level off as we capture and harvest the growth. The objectives of TSMC's capital management are to fund the company's growth organically, generate good profitability, preserve financial flexibility and distribute a sustainable and steadily increasing cash dividend to shareholders.

儘管 2023 年充滿挑戰，但以美元計算，我們的收入在未來幾年仍有望實現 15% 至 20% 的複合年增長率，這是我們在 2022 年 1 月投資者大會上傳達的目標。我們的 2024 年資本支出指引為 280 億美元至 320 億美元，隨著我們捕捉和收穫成長，我們的資本支出成長率已開始趨於平穩。台積電資本管理的目標是為公司的有機成長提供資金，產生良好的獲利能力，保持財務靈活性，並向股東分配可持續且穩定成長的現金股利。

As a result of our rigorous capital management, in November, TSMC's Board of Directors approved the distribution of a TWD 3.5 per share cash dividend for the third quarter of 2023, up from TWD 3 previously. This will become the new minimum quarterly dividend level going forward. Third quarter '23 cash dividend will be distributed in April 2024.

經過嚴格的資本管理，台積電董事會於11月批准派發2023年第三季每股現金股利3.5新台幣，高於先前的3新台幣。這將成為未來新的最低季度股息水準。 '23第三季現金股利將於2024年4月分配。

In 2023, TSMC's shareholders received a total of TWD 11.25 cash dividend per share, and they will receive at least TWD 13.5 per share cash dividend for 2024. In the next few years, we expect the focus of our cash dividend policy to continue to shift from a sustainable to a steadily increasing cash dividend per share. Now let me turn the microphone over to C. C.

2023年台積電股東每股共獲得11.25新台幣現金股息，2024年將至少獲得每股13.5新台幣現金股息。未來幾年，我們預計現金股息政策的重點將繼續轉移從可持續的每股現金股息轉向穩定成長的每股現金股利。現在讓我把麥克風交給 C. C.

Thank you, Wendell. Good afternoon, everyone. First, let me start with our 2024 outlook. 2023 was a challenging year for the global semiconductor industry, but we also witnessed the rising emergence of generative AI-related applications with TSMC as a key enabler.

謝謝你，溫德爾。大家下午好。首先，讓我從我們的 2024 年展望開始。 2023 年對全球半導體產業來說是充滿挑戰的一年，但我們也見證了以台積電為關鍵推動者的生成式 AI 相關應用的不斷湧現。

In 2023, weakening global macroeconomic conditions and high inflation and interest rate, it's [upper] rate and prolonged the global semiconductor inventory adjustment cycle. Concluding 2023, the semiconductor industry, excluding memory industry, declined about 2%, while foundry industry declined about 13% year-over-year. TSMC's revenue declined 8.7% year-over-year in U.S. dollar terms.

2023年，全球宏觀經濟狀況疲軟，通膨和利率高企，導致全球半導體庫存調整週期延長。截至2023年，半導體產業（不包括記憶體產業）較去年同期下降約2%，而代工產業較去年同期下降約13%。以美元計算，台積電營收年減 8.7%。

Despite the near-term challenges, our technology leadership enable TSMC to outperform the foundry industry in 2023, while we are positioning us to capture the future AI and high-performance computing-related growth opportunities.

儘管近期面臨挑戰，但我們的技術領先地位使台積電能夠在 2023 年超越代工行業，同時我們也定位於抓住未來人工智慧和高效能運算相關的成長機會。

Entering 2024, we forecast fabless semiconductor inventory to have returned to a [handsome] level exiting 2023. However, macroeconomic weakness and geopolitical uncertainties persist, potentially further weighing on consumer sentiment and the market demand. Having said that, our business has bottomed out on a year-over-year basis, and we expect 2024 to be a healthy growth year for TSMC, supported by continued strong ramp of our industry-leading 3-nanometer technologies, strong demand for the 5-nanometer technologies and robust AI-related demand.

進入 2024 年，我們預測無晶圓廠半導體庫存將恢復到 2023 年後[可觀]的水平。然而，宏觀經濟疲軟和地緣政治不確定性持續存在，可能會進一步打壓消費者信心和市場需求。話雖如此，我們的業務已同比觸底，我們預計 2024 年將是台積電健康增長的一年，這得益於我們業界領先的 3 奈米技術的持續強勁增長、對5 奈米技術和強勁的人工智能相關需求。

Coming off the steep inventory correction and low base of 2023, for the full year of 2024, we forecast the overall semiconductor market, excluding memory, to increase by more than 10% year-over-year, while foundry industry growth is forecast to be approximately 20%. For TSMC, supported by our technology leadership and broader customer base, we are confident to outperform the foundry industry growth. We expect our business to grow quarter-over-quarter throughout 2024, and our full year revenue is expected to increase by low to mid-20% in U.S. dollar terms.

在擺脫 2023 年庫存大幅調整和低基數後，我們預計 2024 年全年半導體市場（不包括內存）將同比增長 10% 以上，而代工行業增長預計為約20%。對於台積電來說，在我們的技術領先地位和更廣泛的客戶基礎的支持下，我們有信心超越代工產業的成長。我們預計 2024 年我們的業務將實現季度環比成長，全年營收預計以美元計算將成長 20% 至 20%。

Next, let me talk about our N3 and N3E ramp-up and progress. Our 3-nanometer technology are the most advanced semiconductor technology in both PPA and transistor technology. As a result, almost all the world's smartphone and HPC innovators are working with TSMC and 3-nanometer technologies. Our N3 successfully entered volume production and enjoy a strong ramp in second half '23, accounting for 6% of our total wafer revenue in 2023.

接下來，讓我談談我們的 N3 和 N3E 的提升和進展。我們的 3 奈米技術是 PPA 和電晶體技術中最先進的半導體技術。因此，全球幾乎所有智慧型手機和 HPC 創新者都在與台積電和 3 奈米技術合作。我們的 N3 成功進入量產，並在 23 年下半年實現強勁增長，佔 2023 年晶圓總收入的 6%。

N3E further leverage the strong foundation of N3 to extend our N3 family with enhanced performance, power and yield. N3E has already entered volume production in the fourth quarter of 2023. Supported by robust demand from customers in both smartphone and HPC applications, we expect revenue from our 3-nanometer technology to more than triple in 2024 and account for a mid-teens percentage of our total wafer revenue.

N3E 進一步利用 N3 的強大基礎來擴展我們的 N3 系列，提高效能、功耗和產量。 N3E 已於2023 年第四季進入量產。在智慧型手機和HPC 應用領域客戶強勁需求的支持下，我們預計3 奈米技術的營收到2024 年將成長兩倍以上，並佔到2024 年的15%左右。我們的晶圓總收入。

We also continue to provide further enhancement of our N3 technology, including N3P and the N3X. With our strategy of continuous enhancements of our 3-nanometer process technologies, we expect strong multiyear demand from our customers and are confident that our 3-nanometer family will be another large and long-lasting node for TSMC.

我們也繼續進一步增強我們的 N3 技術，包括 N3P 和 N3X。隨著我們不斷增強 3 奈米製程技術的策略，我們預計客戶的多年需求將強勁，並相信我們的 3 奈米系列將成為台積電的另一個大型且持久的節點。

Now I will talk about the AI-related demand and our N2 status. The surge in AI-related demand in 2023 supports our already strong conviction that the structural demand for energy-efficient computing will accelerate in an intelligent and connected world. TSMC is a key enabler of AI applications. No matter which approach is taken, AI technology is evolving to use more complex AI models as the amount of computation required for training and inference is increasing.

下面我來講一下AI相關的需求以及我們的N2狀態。 2023 年人工智慧相關需求的激增支持了我們本已堅定的信念，即在智慧互聯的世界中，對節能運算的結構性需求將加速成長。台積電是人工智慧應用的關鍵推動者。無論採用哪種方法，隨著訓練和推理所需的運算量不斷增加，人工智慧技術都在不斷發展以使用更複雜的人工智慧模型。

As a result, AI models need to be supported by more powerful semiconductor hardware, which requires use of the most advanced semiconductor process technologies. Thus, the value of TSMC technology position is increasing, and we are all well positioned to capture the major portion of the market in terms of semiconductor component in AI. To address insatiable AI-related demand for energy-efficient computing power, customers rely on TSMC to provide the most leading edge processing technology at scale with a dependable and predictable cadence of technology offering.

因此，AI模型需要更強大的半導體硬體的支持，這就需要採用最先進的半導體製程技術。因此，台積電技術地位的價值正在增加，我們都處於有利地位，可以佔領人工智慧半導體組件的主要市場份額。為了滿足人工智慧相關的高能效運算能力的永不滿足的需求，客戶依靠台積電大規模提供最領先的邊緣處理技術，並以可靠且可預測的技術提供節奏。

At the same time, as process technology complexity increase, the engagement lead time with customers also started much earlier. Thus, almost all the AI innovators are working with TSMC, and we are observing a much higher level of customer interest and engagement at N2 as compared with N3 at a similar stage from both HPC and the smartphone applications.

同時，隨著製程技術複雜性的增加，與客戶的接觸提前期也開始得更早。因此，幾乎所有人工智慧創新者都在與台積電合作，並且我們在 HPC 和智慧型手機應用程式的類似階段觀察到，與 N3 相比，N2 的客戶興趣和參與度要高得多。

Our 2-nanometer technology will adopt narrow sheet transistor structure and be the most advanced semiconductor technology in the industry in both density and energy efficient when it is introduced in 2025. Our N2 technology development is progressing well with device performance and yield on track or ahead of plan. N2 is on track for volume production in 2025 with a rent profile similar to N3. As part of our N2 technology platform, we also developed the N2 with backside power rail solution, which is better suited for specific HPC applications based on performance, cost and maturity considerations.

我們的2奈米技術將採用窄片電晶體結構，並在2025年推出時在密度和能效方面成為業界最先進的半導體技術。我們的N2技術開發進展順利，裝置性能和良率步入正軌或領先的計劃。 N2 預計於 2025 年實現量產，租金概況與 N3 類似。作為 N2 技術平台的一部分，我們還開發了具有背面電源軌解決方案的 N2，基於效能、成本和成熟度考慮，該解決方案更適合特定的 HPC 應用。

N2 with backside power rail will be available in the second half of 2025 to customers with production in 2026. With our technology of continuous enhancement, N2 and its derivative will further extend our technology leadership position and enable TSMC to capture the AI-related growth opportunities well into the future.

具有背面電源軌的N2 將於2025 年下半年提供給客戶，並於2026 年量產。隨著我們技術的不斷增強，N2 及其衍生產品將進一步擴大我們的技術領先地位，使台積電能夠抓住人工智慧相關的成長機會以及未來。

Finally, let me talk about our specialty technology strategies at mature node. For TSMC, today, around 70% of our total revenue is 16-nanometer and more advanced node. With rising contribution from 3-nanometer and 2-nanometer technologies in the next several years, this number will only increase. Thus, our mature node exposure is around 20% of our total revenue.

最後講一下我們在成熟節點的專業技術策略。對於台積電來說，今天我們總收入的 70% 左右是 16 奈米及更先進的節點。隨著未來幾年3奈米和2奈米技術的貢獻不斷增加，這個數字只會增加。因此，我們的成熟節點敞口約為總收入的 20%。

TSMC's strategy at mature node is to work closely with strategic partner to develop specialty technology solutions to meet customers' requirement and create differentiated and long-lasting value to customers. Our focus is to build a high yield capacity for specialty technologies rather than just a nominal capacity. Through the development, deployment of the differentiated specialty technologies, the profitability of our mature nodes can be around our corporate average gross margin.

台積電在成熟節點的策略是與策略夥伴緊密合作，開發專業技術解決方案以滿足客戶的需求，為客戶創造差異化和持久的價值。我們的重點是建立專業技術的高產量產能，而不僅僅是名目產能。透過差異化專業技術的開發、部署，成熟節點的獲利能力可以接近企業平均毛利率。

Looking ahead, we forecast 28-nanometer will be the sweet spot for our embedded memory applications, and we expect our long-term structural demand at 28-nanometer to be supported by multiple types of specialty technologies. Thus, we are expanding our 28-nanometer specialty manufacturing capacity overseas to support the long-term structural market demand. We believe demand for the differentiated specialty technology will remain steady despite the potential industry capacity increase and our utilization rate and structural profitability and mature node can be well protected in the future.

展望未來，我們預測 28 奈米將成為我們嵌入式記憶體應用的最佳點，我們預計 28 奈米的長期結構性需求將得到多種專業技術的支援。因此，我們正在海外擴大28奈米特種製造產能，以支持長期的結構性市場需求。我們相信，儘管產業產能潛在增加，但差異化專業技術的需求將保持穩定，未來我們的利用率和結構性獲利能力以及成熟的節點可以得到很好的保護。

This concludes my prepared remarks, and now let me turn the microphone over to Mark.

我準備好的發言到此結束，現在讓我將麥克風交給馬克。

Thank you, C. C. Good afternoon, everyone. First, let me talk about our global manufacturing footprint update. TSMC's mission is to be the trusted technology and capacity provider for the global logic IC industry for years to come.

謝謝你，C.C。大家下午好。首先，讓我談談我們的全球製造足跡更新。台積電的使命是在未來幾年成為全球邏輯 IC 產業值得信賴的技術和產能提供者。

In today's fractured globalization environment, our strategy is to expand our global manufacturing footprint to increase our customer trust, expand our future growth potential and reach for more global talents. Our overseas decisions are based on our customers' needs and the necessary level of government subsidy or support. This is to maximize the value for our shareholders.

在當今破碎的全球化環境中，我們的策略是擴大我們的全球製造足跡，以增加客戶的信任，擴大我們未來的成長潛力並吸引更多的全球人才。我們的海外決策是基於客戶的需求以及必要的政府補貼或支援程度。這是為了我們股東的價值最大化。

Firstly, in Japan, we are building a specialty technology fab in Kumamoto, which will utilize 12- and 16-nanometer and 22- and 28-nanometer process technologies. We will hold an opening ceremony for this fab on February 24, next month, and volume production is on track for the fourth quarter of 2024.

首先，在日本，我們正在熊本建造一家專業技術工廠，該工廠將採用12奈米和16奈米以及22奈米和28奈米製程技術。我們將於下個月的 2 月 24 日舉行這座工廠的開幕儀式，預計將於 2024 年第四季實現量產。

In Arizona, we are in close and constant communication with the U.S. government on incentive and a tax credit support and making strong progress in facility supply chain infrastructure, utility supply and equipment installation for our first fab. We continue to work closely and develop strong relationships with our local union and trade partners in Arizona, including recently signed an agreement with Arizona Building and Construction Trades Council on a new framework for cooperation. This agreement extends our collaboration across enhanced workforce training and development, shared commitment to site safety, hiring local workers and establishing regular communication. It is a win-win for all parties.

在亞利桑那州，我們與美國政府就激勵和稅收抵免支持保持密切、持續的溝通，並在我們第一座晶圓廠的設施供應鏈基礎設施、公用事業供應和設備安裝方面取得了重大進展。我們繼續與亞利桑那州當地工會和貿易夥伴密切合作並發展牢固的關係，包括最近與亞利桑那州建築行業委員會簽署了關於新合作框架的協議。該協議將我們的合作擴展到加強勞動力培訓和發展、對現場安全的共同承諾、僱用當地工人以及建立定期溝通。這對各方來說都是雙贏的。

We are well on track for volume production of N4 or 4-nanometer process technology in first half of '25 and are confident that once we begin operations, we will be able to deliver the same level of manufacturing quality and reliability in Arizona as from our fabs in Taiwan.

我們正在順利地在 25 年上半年實現 N4 或 4 奈米製程技術的批量生產，並且相信一旦我們開始運營，我們將能夠在亞利桑那州提供與我們的工廠相同水平的製造品質和可靠性。台灣晶圓廠。

In Europe, we plan to build a specialty technology fab in Dresden, Germany, focusing on automotive and industrial applications with our joint venture partners. We continue to be in close communication with the German federal, state and city governments and their commitment to this project remain strong and unchanged. Fab construction is scheduled to begin in Q4 2024 this year.

在歐洲，我們計劃在德國德勒斯登建立專業技術工廠，與合資夥伴一起專注於汽車和工業應用。我們繼續與德國聯邦、州和市政府保持密切溝通，他們對該計畫的承諾仍然堅定且沒有改變。晶圓廠建設計劃於今年 2024 年第四季開始。

In Taiwan, of course, we continue to invest in and expand our advanced technology capacities to support our customers' needs and their growth. Given the robust multiyear demand for our 3-nanometer technologies, we are expanding our 3-nanometer capacity in Tainan Science Park. We are also preparing our N2 volume production starting in 2025. We plan to build multiple fabs or multiple phases of 2-nanometer technologies in both Hsinchu and Kaohsiung science parks to support the strong structural demand from our customer C. C. just mentioned.

當然，在台灣，我們繼續投資並擴大我們的先進技術能力，以支援客戶的需求及其成長。鑑於多年來對我們 3 奈米技術的強勁需求，我們正在擴大台南科學園的 3 奈米產能。我們也準備好從2025年開始量產N2。我們計劃在新竹和高雄科學園區建設多個晶圓廠或多期2奈米技術，以支持剛才提到的客戶C.C.的強勁結構性需求。

In Taichung Science Park, the government approval process is ongoing and is also on track. While the initial cost of overseas fab, I previously mentioned, are higher than TSMC's fab in Taiwan, we are confident to manage and minimize the cost gap and remain committed to deliver profitable growth and maximize the value for our shareholders.

在台中科學園區，政府審核程序正在進行中，也已步入正軌。雖然我之前提到過，海外晶圓廠的初始成本高於台積電在台灣的晶圓廠，但我們有信心管理和最小化成本差距，並繼續致力於實現盈利增長並為股東實現價值最大化。

Now let me talk about my retirement. On December 19 last year, I announced that I have decided not to seek nomination of Board members for the next term and will retire from the company after the 2024 Annual Shareholders Meeting in June. Allow me to say this. Over the past 30 years, I have been incredibly fortunate to be able to work at and contribute to TSMC.

現在讓我談談我的退休生活。去年12月19日，我宣布決定不再尋求下一屆董事會成員的提名，並將在6月2024年年度股東大會後從公司退休。請容許我這樣說。在過去的30年裡，我非常幸運能夠在台積電工作並為此做出貢獻。

I started at TSMC 30 years ago as a leader of a small 4-person fab construction team. It has been my privilege to serve as Chairman of TSMC and after our legendary founder, Dr. Morris Chang, over the last 6 years. During this time, we have reaffirmed our commitment to our mission, to be the trusted technology and capacity provider to the global logic IC industry for years to come, while adhering to our core values of integrity, commitment, innovation and customer trust.

30 年前，我開始在台積電工作，擔任一個小型 4 人晶圓廠建設團隊的領導者。在過去的六年裡，我很榮幸能夠在傳奇創辦人張忠謀博士之後擔任台積電董事長。在此期間，我們重申了對使命的承諾，在未來幾年成為全球邏輯 IC 產業值得信賴的技術和產能提供者，同時恪守誠信、承諾、創新和客戶信任的核心價值。

TSMC's success is predicated on providing the industry's most leading-edge process technology at scale in the most efficient and cost-effective manner, to enable all the innovators to successfully offer their best products to the world. We, together, have worked diligently to enhance our focus on our technology leadership, competitiveness, global manufacturing footprint, digital excellence sustainability and corporate governance to maximize the value for our customers and our shareholders.

台積電的成功取決於以最高效、最具成本效益的方式大規模提供業界最前沿的工藝技術，使所有創新者能夠成功地向世界提供最好的產品。我們共同努力，加強對技術領先地位、競爭力、全球製造足跡、數位卓越永續性和公司治理的關注，為我們的客戶和股東實現價值最大化。

The past 30 years with TSMC has been an extraordinary journey for me, and I want to extend my sincerest thanks to our incredible, talented team and all our TSMC's colleagues, whose diligence, dedication and can-do spirit have made the company into what it is today.

在台積電工作的30年對我來說是一段非凡的旅程，我要向我們令人難以置信的才華橫溢的團隊以及所有台積電的同事致以最誠摯的謝意，他們的勤奮、奉獻和進取精神使公司成為今天的樣子。是今天。

Now TSMC's Nomination, Corporate Governance and Sustainability Committee of the Board has recommended Dr. C. C. Wei to succeed as the company's next Chairman, subject to the election of the incoming Board in June 2024. If Dr. Wei is elected to be Chairman, he should also continue in his current role as CEO, supported by a deep and experienced team of senior executives, many of whom have been with TSMC for many, many years.

目前，台積電董事會提名、公司治理與永續發展委員會已推薦魏先生接任公司下一任董事長，但須待 2024 年 6 月新任董事會選舉產生。如果魏博士當選為董事長，他應該他還將繼續擔任首席執行官，並得到一支深厚且經驗豐富的高級管理人員團隊的支持，其中許多人已經在台積電工作了很多年。

As I look ahead to spend more time with my family and starting the next chapter of my life after our AGM in June, I remain fully confident in TSMC's strategy, leadership and execution and firmly believe TSMC will continue to perform outstandingly in the years ahead. Thank you for your trust in TSMC and the best is yet to come for the company and its shareholders.

當我期待在六月的年度股東大會後花更多的時間陪伴家人並開始我人生的下一個篇章時，我對台積電的戰略、領導力和執行力仍然充滿信心，並堅信台積電在未來幾年將繼續表現出色。感謝您對台積電的信任，公司及其股東的美好未來尚未到來。

This conclude my messages and our key messages together. Thank you for your attention.

我的信息和我們的關鍵訊息到此結束。感謝您的關注。

Thank you, Chairman. This concludes our prepared statements.

謝謝主席。我們準備好的演講到此結束。

(Operator Instructions) So now let's begin the Q&A session. Again, our Chairman, Dr. Mark Liu, will be the host. Let's take the first 2 questions from the floor, please. Okay. Our first question comes from Charlie Chan from Morgan Stanley.

（操作員說明） 現在讓我們開始問答環節。再次由我們的主席劉馬克博士擔任主持人。請讓我們回答前兩個問題。好的。我們的第一個問題來自摩根士丹利的查理陳。

It's great to see you again in person, Happy New Year. Allow me to remain seated. I have a some long question to you. So first question is to C. C. I am very curious about your comment about the technology leadership, right, because your competitor and also customer, Intel, states that their PPA is ahead of your 2-nanometer, even the cost is lower.

很高興再次見到你本人，新年快樂。請允許我繼續坐著。我有一個很長的問題想問你。所以第一個問題是問C.C。我很好奇你對技術領先性的評論，對吧，因為你的競爭對手也是客戶英特爾說他們的PPA領先於你的2奈米，即使成本更低。

So I want to consult your opinion why there's a different story and how do we charge? And given this debate, how TSMC is going to plan the future capacity for this customer and also competitor? We want to seize this opportunity, but also avoid any overexpansion.

所以我想諮詢一下您的意見為什麼會有不同的故事以及我們如何收費？鑑於這場爭論，台積電將如何為該客戶和競爭對手規劃未來的產能？我們要抓住這個機會，但也要避免過度擴張。

Okay. Thank you, Charlie. Just please allow me for the benefit of the audience here in person and online to summarize your question. So Charlie's first question is around sort of the technology leadership and also our relationship, I guess, our capacity planning with a specific IDM.

好的。謝謝你，查理。為了聽眾的利益，請允許我親自和在線總結一下您的問題。所以 Charlie 的第一個問題是關於技術領先地位以及我們與特定 IDM 的容量規劃的關係。

So the first part of his question is on the technology part. He notes this IDM says their PPA is ahead of TSMC's 2-nanometer and the costs can be lower, yet we said our technology is industry leading, so how do we reconcile the difference? And also, how do we plan the future capacity planning for such type of customer?

所以他的問題的第一部分是關於技術部分。他指出，這個IDM說他們的PPA領先台積電的2奈米，成本可以更低，但我們說我們的技術是業界領先的，那我們如何調和差異呢？還有，對於這樣的客戶，我們未來的產能規劃該如何規劃？

Charlie, you named my customer's name. That's my customer and my competitor. Let me repeat the last time when I comment on their technology. The comment stays the same, so that their new technology will be very similar or equivalent to TSMC's N3P. We further checked again with all the specs, all the possible published in the technology, transistor technology and everything. My comment stays the same.

查理，你說出了我顧客的名字。那是我的客戶，也是我的競爭對手。讓我重複一下上次評論他們的技術時的情況。評論保持不變，因此他們的新技術將與台積電的 N3P 非常相似或相當。我們進一步檢查了所有規格、所有可能發布的技術、晶體管技術和一切。我的評論保持不變。

With a big advantage in the technology maturity, because of in 2025, when they say that their new technology will go on production, for TSMC, that will be the third year with a very high volume production in the fabs. So again, I don't want to make too much of a comment on my customers' claim. But let me assure you, we continue to have a technology leadership and we continue to have a broad base of customer. And almost everybody, almost, they are working with TSMC, okay?

在技​​術成熟度上有很大的優勢，因為到2025年，當他們說他們的新技術將投入生產時，對於台積電來說，這將是晶圓廠實現非常大量生產的第三年。再說一次，我不想對客戶的說法做出太多評論。但我向您保證，我們將繼續保持技術領先地位，並繼續擁有廣泛的客戶群。幾乎每個人都在與台積電合作，好嗎？

In that case, would you aggressively spend capacity because outsourcing is more likely?

在這種情況下，您會因為外包的可能性更大而積極地支出產能嗎？

Certainly, we expand our capacity with USD 28 billion to USD 32 billion, that's a big money. That will be used for 3 nanometer and 2 nanometers of capacity.

當然，我們擴大產能280億美元到320億美元，這是一筆很大的錢。這將用於 3 奈米和 2 奈米的容量。

Let me add some color to this, C. C. I think C. C. has been very modest. I think he's claimed that our N3P is comparable to their 18A. We still affirm our statement. But I would like you to look at a different perspective. And what C. C. -- what the other side claim might be right, but it's only to their own product. And IDM typically optimize their technology for their own product, where foundry, us, we optimize our technology for our customers' product, so that's a big difference.

讓我對此添加一些色彩，C.C. 我認為 C.C. 非常謙虛。我認為他聲稱我們的 N3P 可以與他們的 18A 相媲美。我們仍然確認我們的說法。但我希望你能從不同的角度來看。 C.C.——對方聲稱的可能是正確的，但這只是針對他們自己的產品。 IDM 通常會針對自己的產品優化他們的技術，而代工廠，我們，我們會針對客戶的產品優化我們的技術，所以這是一個很大的區別。

What you use for the high-power server could be very different than what is used with these gadgets on your hands, smartphone or even the large edge AI processors, so you should look at this. I think the time -- compared with PPA, we still affirm our statement. But I think just look at our customers' action, that just tell this -- all the stories.

您用於高功率伺服器的設備可能與您手上的這些小工具、智慧型手機甚至大型邊緣人工智慧處理器的使用設備有很大不同，因此您應該看看這一點。我認為當時——與PPA相比，我們仍然肯定我們的說法。但我認為只要看看我們客戶的行動，他們就能說出所有的故事。

So Jeff, can I go for a second one? Yes. So Mark, so first of all, I really appreciate your leadership. I believe the global investors appreciate your past 6 years, create lots of shareholders' value. So my question is about the content of your speech in November. The speech was about the TSMC in the era for AI. And you mentioned some very interesting data points. You use the AI technology to improve the defense [cloudification].

傑夫，我可以再去一次嗎？是的。馬克，首先，我非常感謝你的領導。我相信全球投資者都會欣賞你們過去的6年，為股東創造了許多價值。我的問題是關於你11月演講的內容。演講主題是AI時代的台積電。你提到了一些非常有趣的數據點。你用AI技術來提高防禦【雲化】。

Also, the EUV throughput by, for example, 10%, right? So now it's -- the generative AI can be very big breakthrough in terms of technology. Do you think Samsung or Intel, by leveraging the generative AI, can really break through and catch up your technology? And also before your retirement, any kind of a big unfinished goal or targets for TSMC?

另外，EUV 吞吐量提高了 10%，對嗎？所以現在生成式人工智慧在技術方面可以有非常大的突破。您認為三星或英特爾利用生成式人工智慧真的能夠突破並趕上您的技術嗎？在您退休之前，台積電還有什麼未完成的大目標嗎？

Okay. Thank you, Charlie. So Charlie's second question is directed to Chairman. He noted in November, Chairman gave a speech where he shared how TSMC has always been utilizing big data, machine learning and AI to improve our operational efficiencies. His question is whether now with generative AI, will this enable or allow our competitors to do the same thing and catch up and narrow the gap. Yes.

好的。謝謝你，查理。所以查理的第二個問題是針對主席的。他指出，董事長去年11月發表演講，分享了台積電如何利用大數據、機器學習和人工智慧來提高營運效率。他的問題是，現在有了生成式人工智慧，這是否會讓我們的競爭對手能夠做同樣的事情，趕上並縮小差距。是的。

Okay. Thank you, Charlie. The talk I gave in last November was -- the audience is the Taiwan's industry, companies. The purpose I want to give that is I see artificial intelligence can be a great opportunity for the industry in Taiwan. Just like Taiwan is a big country for semiconductor, it can be a big country for artificial intelligence in the future. That's how I encouraged them.

好的。謝謝你，查理。我去年11月的演講是──聽眾是台灣的工業界、企業。我想表達的目的是，我看到人工智慧能為台灣產業帶來巨大的機會。就像台灣是半導體大國一樣，未來也可以成為人工智慧大國。我就是這樣鼓勵他們的。

And as far as the -- whether our competitor are using AI, of course, of course, they use AI. And just look at all the company -- AI company in Silicon Valley or in U.S. That's not a secret. But on the other hand, AI is only in its nascent stage. Only last November, the first large language data is announced, ChatGPT announced.

至於我們的競爭對手是否正在使用人工智慧，當然，他們當然使用人工智慧。看看所有的公司——矽谷或美國的人工智慧公司，這不是什麼秘密。但另一方面，人工智慧仍處於起步階段。就在去年 11 月，第一個大語言數據公佈了，ChatGPT 公佈了。

We only see the tip of the iceberg. So I want to give the industry an optimistic note that even though 1 nanometer or sub 1 nanometer could be challenging, but we have a new technology capability using AI to accelerate the innovation in science. And that is the -- that is our part, and we have been working on that for many years already.

我們只看到了冰山一角。因此，我想給業界一個樂觀的說法，儘管 1 納米或亞 1 奈米可能具有挑戰性，但我們擁有利用人工智慧加速科學創新的新技術能力。這就是我們的職責，我們已經為此努力了很多年。

So we opened -- of course, it's a fair competition. It's no secret. You have another question about one. Well, I still have -- yes, indeed, I will retire in June. And from now to June is a long time. And the company, a lot of thinking happened. And I think -- I hope we definitely execute to C. C.'s forecast of this year. I think by the middle of this year, I think we're pretty sure we can accomplish that.

所以我們就開始了——當然，這是一場公平的競爭。這不是什麼秘密。你還有一個問題。嗯，我還有──是的，確實，我將在六月退休。而且從現在到六月已經是很長一段時間了。而公司，發生了很多思考。我認為——我希望我們一定能夠執行 C.C. 今年的預測。我認為到今年年中，我們非常確定我們能夠實現這一目標。

And of course, C.C. just mentioned, our technology development is on the slew of success. And by June this year, we will know what we are going to fare in 2025. And I give our executive a milestone. I don't want to share with you, but it's going to be very exciting for TSMC.

當然，C.C.剛才提到，我們的技術開發正在取得一系列成功。到今年 6 月，我們就會知道 2025 年的情況。我給我們的高階主管一個里程碑。我不想與你分享，但這對台積電來說將是非常令人興奮的。

And of course, from now on, I simply want to encourage our people in TSMC that the world has changed. Just like you mentioned, we have to use artificial intelligence for future technology. So we will go into global -- we try our global footprint, and we are trying our digital excellence. By digital excellence, you mean we can't count on the hardworking of Taiwan engineer. Only we have to recreate our job to tap their talents and lift up the semiconductor technology engineering to a different level based on what we already have.

當然，從現在開始，我只是想鼓勵台積電的員工，世界已經改變了。就像你提到的，我們必須將人工智慧用於未來的技術。因此，我們將走向全球——我們嘗試我們的全球足跡，我們正在嘗試我們的數位卓越。你所說的數位卓越，是指我們不能指望台灣工程師的辛勤工作。只有我們必須重新創造我們的工作，以挖掘他們的才能，並在我們已有的基礎上將半導體技術工程提升到一個不同的水平。

And of course, the corporate governance is one thing I always see in my heart. During this transition, I want every executive and our Board to adhere to the sound corporate governance so that make sure all the process steps is abided by our ethical governance rules. Thank you.

當然，公司治理也是我一直看在眼裡的一件事。在這段過渡期間，我希望每位主管和董事會都遵守健全的公司治理，以確保所有流程步驟都遵守我們的道德治理規則。謝謝。

Okay. Thank you, Chairman. Let's take the -- move on to the second person from the floor. I think in front, Bruce Lu of Goldman Sachs, please.

好的。謝謝主席。讓我們轉向在場的第二個人。我想前面有請高盛的 Bruce Lu。

Again, the question is definitely coming from the AI, for sure. I think, as C. C. mentioned, almost every AI chip is working with TSMC. However, the investors' concern is always like the dollar content, as a percentage of customers' cost for AI is a lot lower than smartphone or other chips. So as also C. C. mentioned, that you sell a wafer for your customer, but when you buy it back, it's a lot more expensive.

再說一次，這個問題肯定是來自人工智慧。我認為，正如 C.C. 所提到的，幾乎所有人工智慧晶片都與台積電合作。然而，投資人關心的始終是美元含量，因為人工智慧在客戶成本中所佔的比例遠低於智慧型手機或其他晶片。正如 C.C. 所提到的，你向客戶出售一塊晶圓，但當你買回來時，它的價格要貴得多。

So can we expect that the dollar generated by TSMC from AI can be increased in the coming years, whether it's through, like, node migration or advanced packaging or anything we can expect or what kind of rate we can expect for that?

那麼，我們是否可以預期，台積電從人工智慧中獲得的收入在未來幾年會增加，無論是透過節點遷移、先進封裝還是我們可以預期的任何方式，或者我們可以預期的成長率是多少？

Okay. Let me summarize Bruce's first question. I think, again, he is around AI related. He notes that basically, almost all the innovators are working with TSMC at AI, but the value per chip that we seem to be capturing is lower than for a smartphone or PC. So his question is that I think can we expect the dollar value captured by TSMC to increase in the next few years? And will this be -- this additional value more come from the front-end process node wafer production? Or will it be through the advanced packaging solutions?

好的。讓我總結一下布魯斯的第一個問題。我再次認為他與人工智慧有關。他指出，基本上，幾乎所有創新者都在人工智慧方面與台積電合作，但我們似乎獲得的每個晶片的價值低於智慧型手機或個人電腦。所以他的問題是，我認為我們可以預期台積電捕獲的美元價值在未來幾年會增加嗎？而這會是──這個附加價值比較來自於前端製程節點晶圓生產嗎？還是透過先進的封裝解決方案？

Well, let me answer the easiest one first. The revenue come from the front end and back end together. Okay. To capture the value, yes, we are working on it, definitely. But first, let me say that I'm very happy that my customer has been very successful in the AI area, and we are a key enabler for the AI applications.

好吧，讓我先回答最簡單的一個。收入來自前端和後端。好的。為了獲取價值，是的，我們肯定正在努力。但首先，我要說的是，我很高興我的客戶在人工智慧領域取得了非常成功，而我們是人工智慧應用的關鍵推動者。

So far today, everything you saw on the AI came from TSMC, okay? Now here comes the question is that how are we going to capture the value. We are working on it. And actually, we see today, this is at the component total value in the AI. The whole AI data center is a very small percentage a month. If we narrow down the AI's component or the semiconductors' value in the whole system, yes, it's a small percentage.

今天到目前為止，你在AI上看到的一切都來自台積電，好嗎？現在的問題是我們如何獲得價值。我們正在做這件事。實際上，我們今天看到，這是人工智慧中組件的總價值。整個人工智慧資料中心每月只佔很小的比例。如果我們縮小人工智慧元件或半導體在整個系統中的價值，是的，這個比例很小。

But for TSMC, we look at ours here, the AI's a CAGR, that's the growth rate every year, it's about 50%. And we are confident that we can capture more opportunities in the future. So that's what we said that up to 2027, we are going to have high teens of the revenue from a very narrow, we defined the AI application process, not to mention about the networking, not to mention about all others, okay?

但對於台積電來說，我們在這裡看一下我們的，人工智慧是一個複合年增長率，就是每年的成長率，大約是50%。我們有信心在未來能抓住更多機會。所以這就是我們所說的，到2027 年，我們將在一個非常狹窄的範圍內獲得十幾倍的收入，我們定義了人工智慧應用流程，更不用說網路了，更不用說所有其他的了，好嗎？

And to further extend our value, actually, all the edge device, including smartphone, including the PC, they start to put the AI's application inside. They have some kind of a neural process, for example, so the silicon content will be greatly increased. Although the unit is actually low single digit in CAGR, but the silicon content is more important. So put all together, if we lumpsum all the AI-related application, actually, it's quite a big amount for TSMC to grow.

而為了進一步延伸我們的價值，實際上所有的邊緣設備，包括智慧型手機，包括PC，他們都開始把AI的應用放進去。例如，它們有某種神經過程，因此矽含量會大大增加。雖然CAGR的單位實際上是低個位數，但矽含量更重要。所以綜合起來，如果我們把所有與人工智慧相關的應用加在一起，實際上對於台積電來說，這是一個相當大的成長量。

Okay. Bruce, do you have a second question, please.

好的。布魯斯，你還有第二個問題嗎？

Yes. The second question is more for the technology leadership. I mean, as we move into the nanosheet or advanced node, we see another technology divide nowadays. For example, like a high-NA EUV tools. TSMC seems has a different view with other peers. I mean, in the past, like, 20, 30 years, there are several technology divide that TSMC always choose the right decisions, right? So can you tell us about why you choose your current route comparing to your peers? What is the pros and cons? And what's the advantage? And how confident that TSMC can leverage that to be the key success factor for the leading edge?

是的。第二個問題更多的是技術領先性。我的意思是，當我們進入奈米片或先進節點時，我們現在看到了另一個技術鴻溝。例如，像是高數值孔徑的 EUV 工具。台積電似乎與其他同業有不同的看法。我的意思是，在過去，例如20年、30年，有幾個技術鴻溝，台積電總是選擇正確的決定，對吧？那麼，與其他同行相比，您能告訴我們為什麼您選擇當前路線嗎？有什麼優點和缺點？以及有什麼好處呢？台積電有多大信心能夠利用這一點成為領先優勢的關鍵成功因素？

Okay. Bruce's second question is in regards, I think, to technology development and decision-making basically. He notices that today, there's divergence or his words, divide between different companies technology decision, whether to adopt nanosheet transistor structure, whether to adopt high NA tools. He notes that in the past, that this is always occurred in our industry, but TSMC has somehow managed to make the right decision.

好的。我認為，布魯斯的第二個問題基本上是關於技術開發和決策的。他注意到，今天，他的話存在分歧，不同公司之間的技術決策存在分歧，是否採用奈米片電晶體結構，是否採用高NA工具。他指出，過去，這種情況在我們的行業中經常發生，但台積電設法做出了正確的決定。

So he is asking, especially how -- what do we look at or evaluate in our decision-making process, what are the pros and cons and advantages, and probably most importantly, how confident are we about our technology decisions going forward, whether nanosheet, high NA given our competitors' actions?

所以他問，特別是我們在決策過程中如何看待或評估什麼，優點、缺點和優勢是什麼，可能最重要的是，我們對未來的技術決策有多大信心，無論是奈米片還是奈米片？ ，鑑於我們競爭對手的行為，NA 較高？

Bruce, you asked a very technical question. I'm not very sure everybody knows the high NA or is the nanosheet or gate all around. But let me answer the question. We always make the right decision, and our track record shows that. Is that enough?

布魯斯，你問了一個非常技術性的問題。我不太確定每個人都知道高數值孔徑或周圍都是奈米片或門。但讓我回答一下這個問題。我們總是做出正確的決定，我們的業績記錄證明了這一點。夠了嗎？

Okay. Let me elaborate a little bit more. Because of technology itself is no value. Only what that can serve your customer. So we always work with our customers to give them the best transistor technology and the best power-efficient technology and at a reasonable cost, okay? And more importantly, the technology maturity that -- in the high-volume production, that's all important.

好的。讓我詳細說明一下。因為技術本身是沒有價值的。只有能夠為您的客戶服務的東西。因此，我們始終與客戶合作，以合理的成本為他們提供最佳的晶體管技術和最佳能源效率技術，好嗎？更重要的是，在大量生產中，技術成熟度非常重要。

Everything. Everything counted together. So we -- every time we know that there are some new structure, new tools such as high-NA EUV, we look at it carefully, look at the maturity of the tools, look at the cost of the tools and look at the schedule of that -- how to achieve it. We always make the right decision at the right moment to serve our customer.

一切。一切都算在一起。因此，每當我們知道有一些新結構、新工具（例如高NA EUV）出現時，我們都會仔細觀察，看看工具的成熟度，看看工具的成本，看看時間表其中——如何實現它。我們總是在正確的時刻做出正確的決定來服務我們的客戶。

And so far, all our customers are happy with TSMC's progress, okay? Did that answer your question. Almost everybody worked with TSMC on 2-nanometer, except 1.

到目前為止，我們所有的客戶都對台積電的進展感到滿意，好嗎？這回答了你的問題嗎？除了 1 奈米之外，幾乎所有人都與台積電合作開發 2 奈米製程。

Okay. Thank you, C. C. All right. Let's go to the online, take the next 2 questions from the participants who are dialing in via the conference call, please. Operator, could you please state the name and company?

好的。謝謝你，C.C. 好的。讓我們在線上回答透過電話會議撥入的與會者提出的接下來的 2 個問題。接線員，可以請您說明姓名和公司嗎？

The first person to ask a question from the line is Gokul Hariharan from JPMorgan.

第一個在隊伍中提問的是來自摩根大通的 Gokul Hariharan。

Yes. (inaudible)

是的。 （聽不清楚）

Okay. Gokul, okay, I need you to slow down a little bit because the line is not that clear. I do think I got his question, which is he wants to confirm, C. C., you mentioned that we have a very narrow definition, we call server AI processor contribution and that you said it can be high teens in 5 years' time because the last time, we said low teens.

好的。 Gokul，好吧，我需要你放慢一點，因為這條線不太清楚。我確實想我明白了他的問題，他想確認一下，C.C.，你提到我們有一個非常狹窄的定義，我們稱之為伺服器人工智慧處理器貢獻，你說它在5 年內可能會達到很高的水平，因為最後一次時間，我們說低十幾歲。

The demand suddenly being increased since last -- I think, last year, the first quarter up to March or April, when ChatGPT become popular, so customers respond quickly and asked TSMC to prepare the capacity, both in front end and the back end. And that's why we have confidence that this AI's revenue will increase.

從去年開始需求就突然增加了——我想是去年第一季到三四月，ChatGPT開始流行，所以客戶反應很快，要求台積電準備好產能，無論是前端還是後端。這就是為什麼我們有信心這個人工智慧的收入將會增加。

We only narrowed down to the AI application process, by the way. So we look at ours here, that we prepare the technology and the capacities in both our front end and also back end. And so we -- it's in the early stage so far today. We already see the increase, the momentum. And we expect -- if you guys continue to track this one, the number will increase. I have confidence to say that, although I don't know how much.

順便說一句，我們只縮小了人工智慧應用程式的範圍。所以我們在這裡看看我們的，我們在前端和後端都準備了技術和能力。所以我們 - 今天到目前為止還處於早期階段。我們已經看到了成長和勢頭。我們預計——如果你們繼續追蹤這個，這個數字將會增加。我有信心這麼說，雖然我不知道有多少信心。

So high teens, you confirm?

這麼高的青少年，你確認嗎？

Or higher.

或更高。

Yes. Okay. So okay, Gokul, hopefully, that clarifies that first question.

是的。好的。好吧，Gokul，希望這能澄清第一個問題。

The second is about gross margin. In the downturn, we are forming out at much higher gross margin levels than before. Talk a little bit about what happens when we get back to close to full utilization. So I think we are still running at well below full utilization in 2023. And could you also explain the gross margin dilution that you're expecting in second half '23 because of this capacity conversion? What exactly leads to that gross margin dilution? And is that like a onetime kind of dilution that lasts for a little bit of time and kind of levels off in 2025?

第二個是關於毛利率。在經濟低迷時期，我們的毛利率水準比以前高得多。談談當我們回到接近充分利用時會發生什麼。因此，我認為 2023 年我們的運行速度仍遠低於充分利用率。您能否解釋一下您預計 23 年下半年由於產能轉換而導致的毛利率稀釋？到底是什麼導致了毛利率稀釋？這是否就像一種一次性的稀釋，會持續一段時間，並在 2025 年趨於平穩？

Okay. Thank you, Gokul. So if I heard correctly, Gokul's second question is around gross margin. So 2 parts to it. Maybe the second part first, which is he is asking, I believe, about this gross margin in the second half of this year, particularly with what Wendell had described. They are planning to convert some of the capacity, the gross margin impact here, and is this a onetime thing? Is this better capital -- what does this mean in the mid- to long-term profitability? That's the first part. And then I'll go to the second one.

好的。謝謝你，戈庫爾。如果我沒聽錯的話，戈庫爾的第二個問題是關於毛利率的。所以分為兩部分。也許首先是第二部分，我相信他正在詢問今年下半年的毛利率，特別是溫德爾所描述的內容。他們正計劃轉換部分產能，這對毛利率有影響，這是一次性的嗎？這是更好的資本嗎——這對中長期獲利能力意味著什麼？這是第一部分。然後我會講第二個。

Right. Second half, the -- as I said, there are 2 negative factors affecting our gross margin this year. The first one is the N3 dilution. N3 volume will be much bigger in the second half than the first half. So the second half impact from N3 dilution will be between 3 to 4 percentage points.

正確的。下半年，正如我所說，有兩個負面因素影響了我們今年的毛利率。第一個是 N3 稀釋液。 N3下半年的成交量會比上半年大很多。因此，下半年 N3 稀釋的影響將在 3 至 4 個百分點之間。

And also the N5 capacity converted to N3. That will mostly take place in the second half as well. So that will be 1 to 2 percentage points, okay? That's for this year. For the longer term, if you look at these 2 factors, our N3 dilution will gradually reduce, because the profitability will continue to improve or increase in the next several years.

且N5容量也轉換為N3。這也將主要發生在下半場。所以這將是 1 到 2 個百分點，好嗎？這是今年的事。從長遠來看，如果你看這兩個因素，我們的N3稀釋度將逐漸減少，因為未來幾年獲利能力將繼續改善或增加。

And N5 converted to N3, it's a onetime short-term impact on profitability, which will bring capital efficiency to us in the middle to long term. And the benefits together will be much bigger than the onetime hit in the short term. So if you're talking about the longer-term profitability, including these 2 factors, plus we're selling our value, our technology value, as C. C. mentioned, we continue to drive down the cost.

而N5轉為N3，對獲利能力來說是一次性的短期影響，從中長期來看會為我們帶來資本效率。而短期內帶來的好處將比一次性的打擊大得多。因此，如果你談論的是長期盈利能力，包括這兩個因素，加上我們正在出售我們的價值，我們的技術價值，正如 C.C. 提到的，我們將繼續降低成本。

We build our capacity based on the long-term market profile and not the short-term cyclicality and therefore, enable us to have a pretty good utilization. The only thing we are not able to control is foreign exchange rate. So if you put all these together, we still believe that 53% and higher long-term gross margin is achievable.

我們根據長期市場狀況而不是短期週期性來建立產能，因此，使我們能夠擁有相當好的利用率。我們唯一無法控制的是外匯匯率。因此，如果將所有這些放在一起，我們仍然相信 53% 及更高的長期毛利率是可以實現的。

Okay. Gokul, does that answer both parts of your question?

好的。 Gokul，這是否回答了你問題的兩個部分？

Yes. So just to clarify, so given we are much -- at a much lower utilization than normal, what you suggests, Wendell, is that gross margin should get back to the mid- to high 50s once the up cycle starts to gain more momentum, just like what we saw in 2022. Is that a reasonable expectation?

是的。因此，為了澄清，考慮到我們的利用率比正常情況低得多，溫德爾，你建議，一旦上升週期開始獲得更多動力，毛利率應該回到 50 多歲的中高位，就像我們在2022年看到的那樣。這是一個合理的期望嗎？

Yes. Okay. Thank you, Gokul. So Gokul, really, he's asking 53% and higher. Can it be higher? Because, of course, he looks at last year, the utilization was lower, and we still managed to deliver. So he's wondering once utilization goes back to full, can it get to mid- to high 50s?

是的。好的。謝謝你，戈庫爾。確實，Gokul 的要求是 53% 甚至更高。還能再高一點嗎？當然，因為他看到去年的利用率較低，但我們仍然設法交付。因此，他想知道一旦利用率恢復到滿水平，是否可以達到 50 左右的中高水平？

We are working on it. Okay. Certainly, we prepare our capacity according to customers' demand. Last year is very challenging because everybody missed their forecast and so did TSMC. And so the utilization rate is pretty bad. And I believe everybody got more experience in the next few years. And so TSMC's utilization rate will continue to increase, I guarantee that.

我們正在做這件事。好的。當然，我們會根據客戶的需求來準備我們的產能。去年是非常具有挑戰性的一年，因為每個人都沒有達到他們的預測，台積電也是如此。所以利用率很差。我相信在接下來的幾年裡每個人都會獲得更多的經驗。所以我保證台積電的利用率會繼續提高。

So the question is we're working on that. It can be.

所以問題是我們正在努力解決這個問題。有可能。

Okay. Thank you, Gokul. Thank you. Operator, let's move on to the -- take the question from the second participant on the call.

好的。謝謝你，戈庫爾。謝謝。接線員，讓我們繼續——接受通話中第二位參與者的問題。

The second one to ask a question is Randy Abrams from UBS.

第二個提問的是瑞銀集團的蘭迪·艾布拉姆斯。

Okay. Yes. And good luck to both Mark and C. C. as you go through the upcoming transition. I wanted to ask, going back to the question on the IDM. I think, earlier, you conceded that your competitor's process is actually pretty good for -- optimized to their own products. Could you talk about your view on sustainability of the ramp of that IDM outsourcing with your own products in HPC? If you look out over the next 2 to 3 years, if you see that continuing to grow or reversed, or there could be a bit of a cooling off from some of the opportunity you have right in front of you now?

好的。是的。祝馬克和 C.C. 在即將到來的過渡期間好運。我想問，回到IDM 的問題。我認為，早些時候，您承認競爭對手的流程實際上非常適合——針對他們自己的產品進行最佳化。您能否談談您對使用您自己的 HPC 產品進行 IDM 外包的可持續性的看法？如果你展望未來 2 到 3 年，你會看到這種趨勢繼續成長還是逆轉，或者你現在擁有的一些機會可能會有所降溫？

Okay. Thank you, Randy. So Randy's first question goes back to the IDM. His question is, with the IDM saying their technology is pretty good, what is the risk? Or how do we see the sustainability of this IDM's outsourcing business to TSMC in the next 2 to 3 years? Can this continue to grow? Or will this reverse and go back in-house to the IDM? And how do we manage or plan for this?

好的。謝謝你，蘭迪。 Randy 的第一個問題又回到了 IDM。他的問題是，IDM說他們的技術相當好，那麼風險是什麼？或者說我們如何看待這個IDM外包給台積電的業務在未來2到3年的可持續性？這能繼續成長嗎？或者這種情況會逆轉並回到 IDM 內部嗎？我們如何管理或規劃這一點？

Okay. Randy, that's a good question. Actually, we have taken into account all the considerations, including the IDM, can do it by himself. We have put that one into consideration, actually, in our capacity planning. Actually, we took a very conservative way to prepare our capacity in this kind of a situation. Okay. I cannot speak more because of that's our strategy.

好的。蘭迪，這是個好問題。其實我們已經考慮到了所有的考慮，包括IDM，可以自己做。事實上，我們已經在容量規劃中考慮到了這一點。實際上，我們在這種情況下採取了非常保守的方式來準備我們的能力。好的。我不能說更多，因為這是我們的策略。

Okay. If I can ask a follow-up, actually, just through the CapEx, where I think, earlier, you said the rate of increase would slow down. But I think still implying it should increase over time as you grow. If you could discuss -- the CapEx that you guided was flat. Should we think of it as a pause whereas you start to move into 2-nanometer, there should be another wave of increase?

好的。如果我可以詢問後續情況，實際上，只是透過資本支出，我想，早些時候，您說成長率會放緩。但我認為仍然意味著隨著你的成長，它應該隨著時間的推移而增加。如果您可以討論一下—您指導的資本支出是持平的。我們是否應該將其視為開始進入 2 奈米的暫停，是否應該出現另一波成長？

And second part, somewhat related, but curious about the geographic expansion. There's been a lot of press about new fabs in Japan, second fab and potential third advanced fabs. And it feels like the first fab went smoothly. So are you starting to redirect or think more expansion to Japan rather than U.S.? Or potentially both, you have both options as you move to 3-nanometer?

第二部分，有些相關，但對地理擴張感到好奇。關於日本的新晶圓廠、第二座晶圓廠和潛在的第三座先進晶圓廠的新聞有很多。感覺第一座晶圓廠進展順利。那麼您是否開始轉向或考慮向日本而不是美國進行更多擴張？或者兩者都有可能，當您轉向 3 奈米時，您有兩種選擇嗎？

Okay, Randy. That's a lot of questions. So I'm going to take that as your second question, okay, basically. So the first part of it is about the CapEx. He notes that Wendell said the rate of increase is beginning to level off. Randy's question is for this year and take the midpoint, $30 billion is basically flat. So is this just a temporary pause in the CapEx? And with 2-nanometer in the upcoming years, should we expect the dollar amount to go back up? That's the first part.

好吧，蘭迪。這是很多問題。所以我將把它作為你的第二個問題，好吧，基本上。所以它的第一部分是關於資本支出的。他指出，溫德爾表示成長率開始趨於平穩。蘭迪的問題是，今年取中點，300 億美元基本上持平。那麼這只是資本支出的暫時暫停嗎？未來幾年，隨著 2 奈米技術的發展，我們是否應該預期美元金額會回升？這是第一部分。

Okay, Randy, the CapEx dollar amount, every year, may vary. It depends on the different situation. The rate of increase definitely is slower than the past 3 years. And if you look at -- I think the other way of looking at that is the capital intensity. In the past 3 years, the highest point is 2021. So it's going to be -- it was over 50% and then followed by 47% and 43%. And this year, if you do the math, is going to be mid-30s. We expect, in the next several years, it will remain around the 30 percentage capital intensity.

好的，蘭迪，每年的資本支出金額可能會有所不同。這取決於不同的情況。成長速度肯定比過去3年慢。如果你看一下——我認為另一種看待這個問題的方式是資本密集度。在過去的三年裡，最高點是 2021 年。所以將會是——超過 50%，然後是 47% 和 43%。如果你算一下，今年將會是 30 多歲。我們預計，未來幾年，資本密集度將維持在30%左右。

Okay. And then the other part of Randy's question is on the geographic expansion. He notes a lot of reports saying we may build a second fab in Japan and that we even may build a third. So his question is really, are we redirecting our overseas expansion focus more to Japan? Or has it changed anything in the U.S.? Randy, I think that's what you're trying to ask, right?

好的。蘭迪問題的另一部分是關於地理擴張。他注意到許多報導說我們可能會在日本建造第二座晶圓廠，甚至可能建造第三座。所以他的問題是，我們是否會將海外擴張的重點更轉向日本？或者它改變了美國的什麼嗎？蘭迪，我想這就是你想問的，對吧？

Yes, that's what I'm trying to ask.

是的，這就是我想問的。

Can you repeat the question again?

你能再重複一次這個問題嗎？

Sure. So Randy is saying, look, he knows there's a lot of talk, we're going to build a second fab in Japan, maybe 3. So he just wants to know, are we shifting our overseas expansion focus to Japan or -- from the U.S.? Or is there any big significant change?

當然。所以蘭迪說，看，他知道有很多討論，我們將在日本建造第二座晶圓廠，也許是3 座。所以他只是想知道，我們是否會將海外擴張重點轉移到日本，或者——從美國。？或者有什麼重大的重大變化嗎？

No, no. I think you -- Japan, the second fab in Japan is in serious evaluation stage. We haven't announced to the public yet. And we're still discussing with the Japan government. Although many -- they are very cooperative, so we might be waiting for that. But that technology will still be either 7 or 16, 12 technologies. And remember the -- our Kaohsiung fab, the first fab used to be 28-nanometer or 7-nanometer. Now it's becoming 2-nanometer. So that is the shift to -- for the -- if there is a second fab in Japan, that's our current plan. And as far as the...

不，不。我認為你——日本，日本的第二家晶圓廠正處於認真評估階段。我們還沒有向公眾宣布。我們仍在與日本政府進行討論。儘管很多人都非常合作，所以我們可能會等待。但該技術仍是 7 種或 16 種、12 種技術。請記住，我們的高雄工廠，第一家工廠曾經是 28 奈米或 7 奈米。現在變成2奈米了。因此，如果日本有第二座晶圓廠，這就是我們目前的計畫。至於...

That's helpful. And for -- and to quickly talk 3-nanometer because 5-nanometer was slightly delayed, would 3-nanometer still come 2 years after the new plan for 5 in Arizona?

這很有幫助。快速討論一下 3 奈米，因為 5 奈米稍微延遲了，在亞利桑那州制定 5 奈米新計畫 2 年後，3 奈米還會出現嗎？

So in Arizona, Randy wants to know that we have 5-nanometer in first half '25. What's the plan for the second fab with 3-nanometer?

在亞利桑那州，Randy 想知道 25 年上半年我們有 5 奈米技術。第二座3奈米晶圓廠的計畫是什麼？

Yes, we are -- the second fab shell is under construction. But what technology in that shell is still under discussion, and I think that also has to do with how much incentives that fab -- the U.S. government can provide. And yes, there will be a gap, at least current planning is '27 or '28, yes. That will be the timeframe.

是的，我們是──第二座晶圓廠正在興建中。但這個外殼中的技術仍在討論中，我認為這也與美國政府能夠提供多少激勵措施有關。是的，會有差距，至少目前的計劃是“27”或“28”，是的。這將是時間表。

To be honest, mostly -- most all the fab in overseas, what's actually being loaded, what technology being set up, really, it's a decision of customers' demand in that area at that timing, so nothing is definitive. But we are trying to optimize the value for the overseas fab for TSMC.

老實說，大多數 - 大部分海外晶圓廠，實際裝載的是什麼，正在建立什麼技術，實際上，這是客戶當時在該地區的需求決定的，所以沒有什麼是確定的。但我們正在努力優化台積電海外晶圓廠的價值。

Okay. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Randy. All right. In the interest of time, we'll take the next 2 from the floor. I think there's one here. First, Laura Chen from Citi Bank.

好的。謝謝主席。謝謝你，蘭迪。好的。為了節省時間，我們將從場上拿走接下來的 2 個。我想這裡有一個。首先是花旗銀行的 Laura Chen。

I think we got a lot of discussion about the leading position in the most advanced nodes. So I just have a question about what's your view on the mature node dynamic? And particularly, we are seeing that globally, consider the geopolitical tension. So we are seeing that the fab, all over the place in the world, so do you see that in the longer term, any concern on industry-wise overcapacity? So what's TSMC's strategy? And also, what's your view on your mature node profitability as well? That's my first part.

我認為我們對最先進節點的領先地位進行了很多討論。所以我想問一下您對成熟節點動態有何看法？特別是，我們看到全球範圍內地緣政治緊張局勢。所以我們看到世界各地都有晶圓廠，那麼從長遠來看，您是否認為對產業產能過剩有任何擔憂？那麼台積電的策略是什麼呢？另外，您對成熟節點獲利能力有何看法？這是我的第一部分。

Okay. Thank you, Laura. So Laura's first question is on mature node strategy and profitability. She notes, with the geopolitical dynamics, that there's a lot of capacity being built on the mature nodes. So her question is do we see or expect an industry-wide oversupply, and probably more importantly, what is the impact to TSMC's mature node strategy and profitability?

好的。謝謝你，勞拉。所以Laura的第一個問題是關於成熟的節點策略和獲利能力。她指出，由於地緣政治動態，成熟節點上正在建造大量容量。所以她的問題是，我們是否看到或預期會出現全行業的供應過剩，或許更重要的是，這對台積電成熟的節點策略和獲利能力有何影響？

Laura, I think your observation is right. There might be too much of a capacity being built right now for mature nodes. So the concern on overcapacity is valid. Now let's talk about the TSMC. As I said, the TSMC increased the mature node capacity for specialty technology, differentiated with others. We work with customers and that kind of capacity, actually, effective capacity as we name it, is with a commitment from customers loading and for the future business.

勞拉，我認為你的觀察是正確的。目前可能正在為成熟節點建立過多的容量。因此，對產能過剩的擔憂是有道理的。現在我們來談談台積電。正如我所說，台積電增加了專業技術的成熟節點容量，與其他公司不同。我們與客戶合作，這種能力，實際上，我們所說的有效能力，是客戶對未來業務的承諾。

And because we offer the value for our customer to design their product, so we believe that they can retain their product's value even the capacity is [broadened] in the industry. And so long as our customer is doing well, TSMC is doing well. And so the profitability, as I said in my statement, it will be around the corporate average, so we don't have concern.

而且因為我們為客戶提供設計產品的價值，所以我們相信即使產業的產能[擴大]，他們也可以保留產品的價值。只要我們的客戶做得好，台積電就做得好。因此，正如我在聲明中所說，盈利能力將接近公司平均水平，因此我們不必擔心。

We speak for TSMC, okay? It could be industry issues.

我們為台積電說話，好嗎？可能是行業問題。

That's very helpful. And also my second question is back to AI related. As we know that a lot of investors care a lot about your advanced packaging progress. We also know that TSMC got a very good progress on DDIC SoIC, so can you share with us your progress development beyond CoWos, what's your plan on the DDIC and what's the schedule and the capacity you are aiming for in the next 2, 3 years?

這非常有幫助。我的第二個問題又回到了與人工智慧相關的問題。據我們所知，許多投資者非常關心您的先進封裝進度。我們也知道台積電在DDIC SoIC 上取得了非常好的進展，所以您能與我們分享一下您在CoWos 之外的進展情況嗎？您在DDIC 上的計劃是什麼，未來2、3 年的時間表和產能目標是什麼？

Okay. Thank you, Laura. So Laura, second question is on advanced packaging. She notes again the strong demand for AI-related applications. So advanced packaging, the progress. Of course, CoWos, demand is very strong. Her question is, really, I think, beyond CoWos, into true 3D IC or integration solutions, such as SoIC. What is the progress that we see the engagement from customers, the capacity and basically the outlook for these segments of the business?

好的。謝謝你，勞拉。勞拉，第二個問題是關於先進封裝的。她再次指出對人工智慧相關應用的強勁需求。所以先進的封裝，進步了。當然，CoWos的需求是非常旺盛的。我認為，她的問題實際上是超越 CoWos，進入真正的 3D IC 或整合解決方案，例如 SoIC。我們看到客戶的參與度、產能以及這些業務領域的基本前景有何進展？

The demand actually is very strong. Today's situation, that we cannot offer enough capacity to support our customer, and that condition will continue probably all the way to next year, although we are very -- working very hard to increase the capacity. For example, this year, we are doubling our output, still not enough. And so we continue to increase for the next year.

需求其實非常強烈。今天的情況是，我們無法提供足夠的產能來支持我們的客戶，這種情況可能會持續到明年，儘管我們非常努力地增加產能。例如今年我們產量翻了一倍，但還是不夠。因此，我們明年將繼續增加。

The progress, so far so good because we invested on the advanced packaging technology for more than 10 years, already. So we expect the growth rate for CoWoS for 3D IC or for SoIC per se, it will be more than 50% CAGR in the next few years, at least. And so we are confident that the demand is there. It's TSMC's capability to offer enough capacity to support our customers.

到目前為止，進展順利，因為我們已經在先進封裝技術上投資了 10 多年。因此，我們預計 3D IC 或 SoIC 本身的 CoWoS 成長率至少在未來幾年內將超過 50% 的複合年增長率。因此，我們對需求的存在充滿信心。台積電有能力提供足夠的產能來支持我們的客戶。

For CoWoS, you will be doubling. And what's the idea about the next year? Do you have any preliminary thought?

對於 CoWoS，您將加倍。明年有什麼想法？你有初步的想法嗎？

I will talk to you next year.

明年我會和你談談。

Okay. Thank you. We have a question here from Brad Lin from Bank of America Merrill Lynch. I think in the interest of time, we'll take 1 question. Sorry, from yourself, and then we'll take 1 more from the line and then 1 more in person if there's any.

好的。謝謝。我們有來自美銀美林的 Brad Lin 的問題。我想為了節省時間，我們將回答 1 個問題。抱歉，來自您自己，然後我們會再從隊列中再拿 1 個，然後再親自再拿 1 個（如果有的話）。

Well, so my question will be still around N3 and also IDM. So as we understand, the demand is uncertain, but we can definitely increase our business certainty by gaining market share. So do we expect some more contribution or market share gain, especially from IDM side? Or any more contribution from PC side, maybe, well, by the end of the year or any time soon?

嗯，所以我的問題仍然圍繞著 N3 和 IDM。據我們了解，需求是不確定的，但我們絕對可以透過獲得市場份額來增加我們的業務確定性。那麼，我們是否期望獲得更多貢獻或市場份額，特別是來自 IDM 方面？或者來自 PC 方面的更多貢獻，也許，嗯，在今年年底或不久的將來？

Okay. So Brad's first question is about IDM outsourcing, I think, again, given the technology leadership that we have, he wants to know, do we expect more business or outsourcing from the IDM by the end of this year? Or -- and how do we see it? Is it uncertain going forward?

好的。 Brad 的第一個問題是關於 IDM 外包，我想，鑑於我們擁有的技術領先地位，他想知道，到今年年底，我們是否期望從 IDM 獲得更多業務或外包？或者──我們如何看待它？未來是否不確定？

That is too specific. You say that IDM outsourcing, I know whom you talk about. So I better not to make any comment. I still -- what I said, we take everything into consideration. We welcome the business, but we prepared our capacity expansion, okay?

這也太具體了吧。你說IDM外包，我知道你說的是誰。所以我最好不要發表任何評論。我仍然——我說過，我們會考慮一切。我們歡迎生意，但我們已經準備好產能擴張，好嗎？

Your second question?

你的第二個問題？

Yes. So it's on the advanced packaging. So we know that the CoWoS, as right now, it's the mainstream. So have the management seen the clients converting to either CoWoS-R or CoWoS-L? And then what's the implication to revenue and margin profile?

是的。所以它是在先進的包裝上。所以我們知道 CoWoS 目前是主流。那麼，管理階層是否看到客戶轉向 CoWoS-R 或 CoWoS-L？那麼這對收入和利潤狀況有何影響？

Okay. So it's also a very specific, too specific question. But again, Brad wants to know, CoWoS-S seems to be the mainstream today. Do you see customers switching to CoWoS-L or CoWoS-R? And what's the margin implication?

好的。所以這也是一個非常具體、太具體的問題。但 Brad 想知道，CoWoS-S 似乎是當今的主流。您是否看到客戶轉向 CoWoS-L 或 CoWoS-R？保證金意味著什麼？

Well, let's make a joke. I even didn't know what is CoWoS-R or CoWoS-L. But anyway, we are working with customers to support them with adequate capacity, although it's not 100% enough, but we do our best. And we're developing that next-generation CoWoS-L or something like that for our customer. And it's our [priority] that it's welcomed by all my customers, so we are preparing the capacity for it.

好吧，我們開個玩笑吧。我甚至不知道什麼是CoWoS-R或CoWoS-L。但無論如何，我們正在與客戶合作，以足夠的能力支持他們，雖然不是100%足夠，但我們盡力了。我們正在為客戶開發下一代 CoWoS-L 或類似產品。我們的[首要任務]是讓它受到所有客戶的歡迎，因此我們正在為此準備產能。

Got it. Last one, not the least, not a question.

知道了。最後一個，也是最重要的，不是一個問題。

That's 2 questions, so…

這是 2 個問題，所以…

No, no, not a question. So basically, well, I want to say, well, thank you, Mark, for your leadership, contribution, endeavor for the past 30 years, not just for Taiwan -- not just for TSMC, but also for Taiwan. And I wish you a happy retirement and also the new chapter of life.

不，不，不是問題。所以基本上，嗯，我想說，嗯，謝謝你，馬克，在過去 30 年裡你的領導、貢獻和努力，不僅是為了台灣，不僅是為了台積電，也是為了台灣。祝您退休生活愉快，開啟人生新篇章。

Okay. We will take the final questions from the last 2 participants. Let's go online first, then we have 1 in final in person, okay? Operator?

好的。我們將回答最後 2 位參與者的最後問題。我們先上網，然後再現場進行決賽，好嗎？操作員？

Next from the call is Krish Sankar from TD Cowen.

接下來是來自 TD Cowen 的 Krish Sankar。

I have 2 of them. First one, I think, Wendell, you spoke about revenue growth for the year and again from gross margin guidance. I'm just kind of wondering how do you think about gross margin for the full year in the context of the fact that TSMC's revenue is going to grow in the low to mid-20%. How do you think about gross margin for full year 2024? And then I have a follow-up.

我有 2 個。第一個，我想，溫德爾，您談到了今年的收入成長，並再次談到了毛利率指引。我只是想知道，在台積電收入將增加 20% 左右的情況下，您如何看待全年毛利率。您如何看待2024年全年的毛利率？然後我有一個後續行動。

Okay. Krish, again, sorry, we could not hear you clearly online. But I think his question is, correct me if I'm wrong, with the revenue outlook that we gave, low to mid-20s growth in U.S. dollar term, what is the outlook for the full year gross margin? Is that what you're asking?

好的。克里什，再次抱歉，我們無法在網路上清楚地聽到您的聲音。但我認為他的問題是，如果我錯了，請糾正我，根據我們給出的收入前景，以美元計算的低至 20 年代中期的增長，全年毛利率的前景如何？這就是你問的嗎？

That's correct.

這是正確的。

Yes. Okay.

是的。好的。

That's right, Jeff. Yes.

沒錯，傑夫。是的。

Right. So I just mentioned a couple of puts and takes on the gross margin of this year. And I also said that the second half, we will have a higher dilution from 2 factors. But we're not ready to give out a full year guidance on gross margin yet. So we'll talk about that as time goes by. But let me say this, longer term, with all the factors together, still 53% and higher is definitely, we're very confident in achieve that.

正確的。所以我只是提到了今年毛利率的一些看跌期權和期權。我還說過，下半年，我們將因兩個因素而受到更高的稀釋。但我們尚未準備好給予全年毛利率指引。所以我們會隨著時間的推移來討論這個問題。但我要說的是，從長遠來看，將所有因素加在一起，仍然是 53% 或更高，我們對實現這一目標非常有信心。

Okay. Does that -- yes. Sorry, Krish, why don't you go ahead?

好的。是嗎——是的。抱歉，克里什，為什麼不繼續呢？

I have a follow-up. Yes, just a quick follow-up. And I also just want to say thanks a lot, Mark, for all the support. Just a follow-up. In terms of the revenue growth for this year, December quarter, you exited HPC and smartphone roughly 43% of revenue. What's going to drive the growth this year? Is it HPC? Or smartphone? Which is going to be better this year to get to the low to mid-20%?

我有一個後續行動。是的，只是快速跟進。我還想說，非常感謝馬克，感謝所有的支持。只是後續行動。就今年 12 月季度的營收成長而言，您退出了 HPC 和智慧型手機約 43% 的收入。是什麼推動了今年的成長？是高效能運算嗎？還是智慧型手機？今年哪一個會更好地達到 20% 的中低？

Okay. Krish, sorry. Again, we could not hear you that clearly, but I think I got the gist of your question. Maybe the way Krish -- his question is what the components that's driving the revenue growth this year. Maybe we can share with him by the 4 growth platforms.

好的。克里什，對不起。同樣，我們聽不清楚，但我想我明白了你問題的要點。也許克里什的方式——他的問題是推動今年收入成長的因素是什麼。也許我們可以透過4個成長平台與他分享。

Krish, the HPC will be -- will have the highest growth, actually much higher than the corporate. The other 3 platforms will all grow, although slower than the corporate.

Krish，HPC 將具有最高的成長，實際上遠高於企業。其他 3 個平台都將成長，儘管速度慢於企業。

Okay. Then we'll take the final question from the floor, the first row here. Nicolas Baratte of Macquarie.

好的。然後我們將從第一排的地板上提出最後一個問題。麥格理的尼古拉斯·巴拉特。

Very quick question. Is it possible or would you expect that some of your Arizona customers could be only customers in Arizona? That some U.S. customers only want to buy wafers made in the U.S.?

非常快的問題。是否有可能或您期望您的某些亞利桑那州客戶只能是亞利桑那州的客戶？有些美國客戶只想購買美國製造的晶圓？

Sorry, your question is, will customers in Arizona only be U.S. customers?

抱歉，您的問題是，亞利桑那州的客戶只能是美國客戶嗎？

Is it possible some U.S. customers only want U.S.-made wafers?

是否有可能有些美國客戶只想要美國製造的晶圓？

Why don't we answer that question. Arizona fab is for everybody, but majority is a U.S. customer, you are right.

我們為什麼不回答這個問題呢？亞利桑那工廠適合所有人，但大多數是美國客戶，你是對的。

Do you have another question? No? Okay. Well, if not, then this does conclude our Q&A session. Before we conclude today's conference, be advised that the replay of the conference will be accessible within 30 minutes from now, and the transcript will become available 24 hours from now, both of which are going to be available through our website, TSMC's website at www.tsmc.com.

你還有其他問題想問嗎？不？好的。好吧，如果沒有，那麼我們的問答環節就到此結束了。在我們結束今天的會議之前，請注意，會議重播將在 30 分鐘內提供，會議記錄將在 24 小時後提供，這兩個內容都可以透過我們的網站、台積電網站 www. .tsmc.com。

So thank you again, everyone, for joining us today. We hope everyone continues to stay well, and we hope you will see -- join us again next quarter. Goodbye, and have a great day. Thanks.

再次感謝大家今天加入我們。我們希望每個人都繼續保持健康，我們希望您會看到—下個季度再次加入我們。再見，祝你有美好的一天。謝謝。