諾基亞 (NOK) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Nokia's third quarter 2025 results call. I'm David Mulholland, Head of Nokia Investor Relations. And today with me is Justin Hotard, our President and CEO; along with Marco Wiren, our CFO.

女士們、先生們，早安。歡迎參加諾基亞 2025 年第三季業績電話會議。我是諾基亞投資者關係主管大衛·穆爾霍蘭德。今天和我在一起的是我們的總裁兼執行長賈斯汀·霍塔德，以及我們的財務長馬可·維倫。

Before we get started, a quick disclaimer. During this call, we will be making forward-looking statements regarding our future business and financial performance, and these statements are predictions that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results we currently expect. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website.

在開始之前，先做一個簡短的免責聲明。在本次電話會議中，我們將對未來的業務和財務表現做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述是預測，涉及風險和不確定性。因此，實際結果可能與我們目前的預期結果有重大差異。造成這種差異的因素既包括外部因素，也包括內部營運因素。我們在年度報告（表格 20-F）的「風險因素」部分中列出了此類風險，該報告可在我們的投資者關係網站上查閱。

Within today's presentation, references to growth rates will mostly be on a constant currency and portfolio basis, and other financial items will be based on our comparable reporting. Please note that our Q3 report and the presentation that accompanies this call are published on our website. The report includes both reported and comparable financial results under reconciliation between the two.

在今天的報告中，成長率的提及將主要基於固定匯率和投資組合，其他財務項目將基於我們的可比較報告。請注意，我們的第三季報告和本次電話會議的簡報已發佈在我們的網站上。該報告包括已公佈的財務結果和可比較財務結果，並對兩者進行了核對。

In terms of the agenda for today, we will go -- Justin will go through our key messages from the quarter, and then Marco will go through our financial performance. We'll then move to Q&A.

今天的議程安排如下：賈斯汀將介紹本季度的主要訊息，然後馬爾科將介紹我們的財務業績。接下來我們將進入問答環節。

With that, let me hand over to Justin.

接下來，我會把麥克風交給賈斯汀。

Thank you, David. Overall, we delivered a solid performance in the third quarter, in line with our expectations. We grew net sales by 9%, with all business groups growing. Order intake was again strong, particularly in optical networks and IP networks driven by AI and cloud customers. Our profitability in the quarter was as expected.

謝謝你，大衛。整體而言，我們第三季業績表現穩健，符合預期。淨銷售額成長了 9%，所有業務部門均實現成長。訂單量再次強勁成長，尤其是在光網路和IP網路領域，這主要得益於人工智慧和雲端客戶的推動。本季獲利情況符合預期。

Network Infrastructure gross margin improved sequentially that was impacted slightly by product mix. Cloud and Network Services had a strong gross margin in the quarter. Product mix impacted the gross margin of mobile networks with a lower mix of software revenue. Our operating margin declined year on year due to a onetime benefit seen in the prior year from a loss provision reversal, without which our operating margin would have been flat.

網路基礎設施毛利率較上月有所改善，但受到產品組合的輕微影響。本季雲端和網路服務業務的毛利率表現強勁。產品組合對行動網路的毛利率產生了影響，軟體收入佔比降低。由於上一年虧損撥備衝回帶來的一次性收益，我們的營業利潤率年減；如果沒有這筆收益，我們的營業利潤率將與上年持平。

The broader demand environment remains healthy as we move into the fourth quarter. We have seen some improvements in CSP expectations along with the strong order intake I mentioned in AI and cloud. In fact, entering the fourth quarter, our backlog coverage is stronger than in recent years. We're also pleased with our progress on the Infinera acquisition. We are ahead of schedule with the integration timeline and with synergy expectations. The acquired business contributed strongly through both our net sales growth and order intake growth in Q3.

進入第四季度，整體需求環境依然健康。我們看到，隨著人工智慧和雲端運算領域訂單量的強勁成長，CSP 的預期也出現了一些改善。事實上，進入第四季度，我們的積壓訂單覆蓋率比近年來都要好。我們對收購 Infinera 的進展也感到滿意。我們的整合進度和綜效預期均已提前完成。收購的業務在第三季為我們帶來了強勁的淨銷售額成長和訂單量成長。

So after a solid Q3 and continued strong order intake, we are well on track to achieve our full-year outlook. We expect the fourth quarter with net sales growing sequentially and slightly above our historical seasonality of 22%. We are currently tracking towards the midpoint of our operating profit outlook range.

因此，在第三季業績穩健成長且訂單持續強勁成長之後，我們有望實現全年預期目標。我們預計第四季度淨銷售額將環比增長，並略高於我們歷史上 22% 的季節性增長。我們目前正朝著營業利潤預期範圍的中點穩步前進。

Let me now share a few highlights across the business from the third quarter. For our Network Infrastructure business, and the key highlight has been our progress in the AI and Cloud Customer segment. In Q3, this segment accounted for 6% of our group net sales. Breaking it down, it was 14% of our Network Infrastructure business and more specifically, 29% of Optical Networks.

現在讓我來和大家分享一下第三季公司業務的一些亮點。對於我們的網路基礎設施業務而言，最突出的亮點是我們在人工智慧和雲端客戶領域的進展。第三季度，該業務類股佔集團淨銷售額的 6%。具體來說，它占我們網路基礎設施業務的 14%，更具體地說，佔光網路業務的 29%。

In Optical, as mentioned, our 800-gig ZR, ZR+ coherent pluggables became available in the quarter and ships to our first hyperscale customer. Our pipeline in this space is growing as customer investments accelerate and data center architectures evolve. Q3 also saw us announce strategic partnerships with both Nscale and Super Micro.

如前所述，在光纖領域，我們的 800G ZR、ZR+ 相干可插拔元件已在本季度上市，並已交付給我們的第一位超大規模客戶。隨著客戶投資加速和資料中心架構不斷發展，我們在該領域的業務也在不斷成長。第三季度，我們也宣布與 Nscale 和 Super Micro 建立了策略合作夥伴關係。

With Nscale, we are now a preferred partner for advanced networking technologies across our NI portfolio. Super Micro is adopting our SR Linux network operating system for their 800 gig ethernet switches, providing expanded footprint for our network operating system. Finally, we secured two new design wins for our switching platform in the quarter with hyperscalers.

借助 Nscale，我們現在已成為 NI 產品組合中先進網路技術的首選合作夥伴。Super Micro 正在其 800 千兆乙太網路交換器上採用我們的 SR Linux 網路作業系統，從而擴大了我們網路作業系統的應用範圍。最後，本季我們與超大規模資料中心營運商合作，成功拿下兩家新的交換器平台設計專案。

The market is growing rapidly. And while I'm pleased with these initial signs of progress in IP networks, clearly, we still have a lot of work ahead of us. In our fixed network business, we launched our new 50 gig PON offering. With our unique solution built on our Chilean chipset, operators can easily evolve from GPON to XGS 25 gig and 50 gig PON on the same fiber. Ready with encryption for the post-quantum era, Nokia solution also provides enterprises with the bandwidth, security, and reliability they require.

市場正在快速成長。雖然我對 IP 網路取得的這些初步進展感到高興，但顯然，我們還有很多工作要做。在固定網路業務方面，我們推出了全新的 50 千兆 PON 產品。憑藉我們基於智利晶片組的獨特解決方案，營運商可以在同一根光纖上輕鬆地從 GPON 升級到 XGS 25 Gbps 和 50 Gbps PON。諾基亞的解決方案具備後量子時代的加密功能，還能提供企業所需的頻寬、安全性和可靠性。

Customers like Frontier Communications in the United States are already using our unique PON technology to seamlessly introduce 25 gig PON.

像美國的 Frontier Communications 這樣的客戶已經在使用我們獨特的 PON 技術無縫引入 25 Gbps PON。

Now I want to turn to our mobile businesses, starting with Cloud and Network Services. The team has delivered strong network -- net sales growth and operating profit growth as it continues to focus on autonomous cloud native architectures. In Voice Core, we became the market share leader in the first half of 2025 and as reported by Dell'Oro. Approximately 70% of 5G stand-alone core network deployments outside China use a portion of Nokia's 5G core stack. And network penetration is still less than 30% for 5G stand-alone core.

現在我想談談我們的行動業務，首先是雲端服務和網路服務。該團隊持續專注於自主雲端原生架構，實現了強勁的網路—淨銷售額成長和營業利潤成長。根據 Dell'Oro 報導，我們在 2025 年上半年成為 Voice Core 的市佔率領導者。在中國以外，約 70% 的 5G 獨立核心網路部署使用了諾基亞 5G 核心協定堆疊的一部分。5G獨立核心網路的網路滲透率仍不到30%。

In Mobile Networks, we continue to see the market stabilize. We recently announced a deal with Vodafone 3 that will see us enter their new combined network in the UK as a major RAN supplier with approximately 7,000 sites. We are focused on improving the returns in the business over time, delivering for our customers, and differentiating through innovation.

在行動網路領域，我們看到市場持續趨於穩定。我們最近宣布與 Vodafone 3 達成協議，我們將作為主要 RAN 供應商進入他們在英國的新合併網絡，擁有約 7,000 個站點。我們致力於不斷提高業務回報，為客戶提供優質服務，並透過創新實現差異化。

In Nokia Technologies, we secured several new agreements in the quarter. The team continues to be disciplined on productivity and operating leverage. While we are now entering the heightened investment phase for 6G standardization, we continue to see stability in our annual operating profit.

本季度，諾基亞技術公司達成了多項新協議。團隊在生產力和營運槓桿方面繼續保持嚴謹的態度。雖然我們現在正進入 6G 標準化投資的強化階段，但我們的年度營業利潤仍保持穩定。

In Q3, we completed a strategic review of our venture fund investments. We have decided to scale down our passive venture fund investments. Over time, we will substantially reduce the capital deployed in these areas. As a result, our venture fund investments are now reported within financial income and expenses. Going forward, we will consider targeted direct minority investments in companies that help us to accelerate our strategy.

第三季度，我們完成了對創投基金投資的策略評估。我們決定縮減被動創投基金的投資規模。隨著時間的推移，我們將大幅減少在這些領域投入的資金。因此，我們的創投基金的投資現在已計入財務收入和支出。展望未來，我們將考慮對有助於我們加速推進策略的公司進行有針對性的直接少數股權投資。

An example is the investment we made in Nscale alongside the strategic partnership that I referred to earlier. Because of this change, we are making a technical change to our operating profit guidance, increasing it by EUR0.1 billion, which is related to the negative impact the venture funds had on our operating profit in the first half. However, operationally, our guidance is unchanged. After a solid Q3 and with recent order trends, we are well on track to achieve our full-year outlook for operating profit.

例如，我們之前提到的與 Nscale 建立策略合作夥伴關係以及對其進行的投資。由於這項變化，我們對營業利潤預期進行了技術性調整，將其上調 1 億歐元，這與創投基金對我們上半年營業利潤的負面影響有關。然而，在操作層面，我們的指導方針保持不變。第三季業績穩健，加上近期的訂單趨勢，我們可望實現全年營業利潤預期。

As I mentioned before, we expect fourth-quarter net sales to grow sequentially at slightly above our historical seasonality of 22%. And we are tracking towards the midpoint of our operating profit range of EUR1.7 billion to EUR2.2 billion.

正如我之前提到的，我們預計第四季度淨銷售額將環比成長，略高於我們歷史上 22% 的季節性成長率。我們正朝著17億歐元至22億歐元的營業利潤預期區間的中點穩步前進。

At our Capital Markets Day in New York on November 19, we will share our strategy to unlock the full potential of our portfolio and the steps we are taking to focus the company to deliver ongoing growth and operating leverage. The AI super cycle is accelerating demand for providers of advanced and trusted connectivity. Nokia is uniquely positioned to be a leader in this market.

在 11 月 19 日於紐約舉行的資本市場日上，我們將分享我們釋放投資組合全部潛力的策略，以及我們為使公司專注於實現持續成長和營運槓桿而採取的措施。人工智慧超級週期正在加速對先進、可信賴的連接服務提供者的需求。諾基亞擁有得天獨厚的優勢，有望成為這個市場的領導者。

With that, let me hand it over to Marco to discuss our financial performance.

接下來，我將把發言權交給馬可，讓他來談談我們的財務表現。

Thanks, Justin, and hello from my side as well. In quarter three, we saw net sales increased by 9%, and we are pleased to see growth across all our business groups. Gross margin for the group declined 150 basis points year on year, and this was largely as we have expected. And this is because of the product mix within both Network Infrastructure and Mobile Networks.

謝謝你，賈斯汀，我也向你問好。第三季度，我們的淨銷售額成長了 9%，我們很高興看到我們所有業務集團都實現了成長。集團毛利率年減 150 個基點，這基本上符合我們的預期。這是由於網路基礎設施和行動網路的產品組合造成的。

Operating margin was 9%, 220 basis points below the prior year, although this was mainly due to a onetime impact from the reversal of loss allowance for trade receivables in the prior year. Without this, the operating profit -- operating margin would have been flat year on year. And we generated EUR429 million of free cash flow and ended the quarter with $3 billion of net cash.

營業利益率為 9%，比上年下降 220 個基點，但這主要是由於上年貿易應收款損失準備金的衝回造成的一次性影響。如果沒有這項措施，營業利潤率將與去年持平。我們產生了 4.29 億歐元的自由現金流，並以 30 億美元的淨現金結束了本季。

I would like to update you on our cost savings program, which we introduced in 2023. We expect to get about EUR450 million savings in 2025. And going forward, we will focus on delivering operational leverage through continuous productivity improvement, IT simplification, digital instrumentation, and organizational efficiency rather than using large restructuring programs. Ultimately, this means a cultural shift towards consistent cost discipline and efficiency to help us deliver our strategic calls.

我想向您報告我們於 2023 年推出的成本節約計畫。我們預計到 2025 年將節省約 4.5 億歐元。展望未來，我們將專注於透過持續提高生產力、簡化 IT、數位化工具和提高組織效率來提升營運效率，而不是採用大規模重整計畫。最終，這意味著我們需要在文化上轉變觀念，更加重視成本控制和效率提升，以幫助我們實現策略目標。

Turning to business group now, starting with Network Infrastructure, which had another strong quarter with 11% growth. Optical Networks was the standout performer with 19% sales growth and continue to see strong order trends with book-to-bill well above 1. IP Networks also saw a strong growth in orders in the quarter as we start to see and increased traction with AI and cloud, as Justin mentioned. IP Networks sales grew 4% and fixed networks grew 8% in the quarter.

現在來看業務集團，首先是網路基礎設施，該集團迎來了一個強勁的季度，成長了 11%。光網路業務表現突出，銷售額成長了 19%，訂單趨勢依然強勁，訂單出貨比遠高於 1。正如 Justin 所提到的，隨著人工智慧和雲端運算的普及，IP 網路在本季也實現了強勁的訂單成長。本季 IP 網路銷售額成長 4%，固定網路銷售額成長 8%。

Gross margin was impacted by product mix and declined 190 basis points, although it did increase from the level we had in quarter two. Operating margin declined because of lower gross margin along with the increased investments in R&D and the acquisition of Infinera.

毛利率受到產品組合的影響，下降了 190 個基點，儘管比第二季的水平有所提高。由於毛利率下降、研發投入增加以及收購 Infinera，營業利潤率下降。

In the quarter, we see -- did see a small positive contribution to operating profit from Infinera as we start to see some initial benefit from synergies, along with the growth in the business. Cloud and Network Services sales grew by 13% in the quarter as we continue to see strong demand for our cloud-based core platforms.

本季度，我們看到 Infinera 對營業利潤做出了較小的正面貢獻，因為我們開始看到協同效應帶來的初步效益，以及業務的成長。由於市場對我們基於雲端的核心平台的需求持續強勁，本季雲端和網路服務銷售額成長了 13%。

Gross margin increased 380 basis points as we improved cost of delivery, along with the operating leverage benefit of higher sales. Operating margin also increased by 250 basis points, with some of the gross margin strength partially offset by higher R&D expenses. And mobile networks net sales increased by 4% year on year, driven by growth in Vietnam and Middle East and Africa.

由於我們改善了交付成本，加上銷售額成長帶來的營運槓桿效應，毛利率提高了 380 個基點。營業利潤率也提高了 250 個基點，但部分毛利率的成長被更高的研發費用所抵銷。行動網路淨銷售額年增 4%，主要得益於越南、中東和非洲市場的成長。

In quarter two, we said that we expect quarter three gross margin to be lower than normal, reflecting a lower software contribution, and this was indeed the case. During the year, we saw a 370 basis point decline. With respect to operating margin, although operating expenses declined, the reversal of loss allowance in the prior year meant that operating margin declined. Without this, the operating margin would have only slightly declined despite this being a quarter with a low software contribution in the mix.

第二季度，我們曾表示預計第三季毛利率將低於正常水平，反映出軟體業務貢獻較低，而實際情況也確實如此。年內，我們看到下降了370個基點。就營業利益率而言，雖然營業費用下降，但由於上一年虧損準備金的衝回，營業利益率下降。如果沒有這筆支出，儘管本季軟體業務貢獻較低，但營業利潤率只會略微下降。

Turning now to Nokia Technologies. Net sales grew by 14% in the quarter, and we signed several new deals in quarter three. And our annual net sales run rate remains at approximately EUR1.4 billion. Operating expenses in quarter three saw some timing benefits and therefore, will increase slightly in quarter four. We continue to expect EUR1.1 billion operating profit for the full year in Nokia Technologies.

現在讓我們來看看諾基亞科技公司。本季淨銷售額成長了 14%，我們在第三季簽署了幾項新協議。我們的年度淨銷售額運行率仍維持在約 14 億歐元。第三季的營運支出受益於一定的時效性，因此，第四季將略有增加。我們仍預期諾基亞科技公司全年營業利潤為 11 億歐元。

Now let's look at the net sales by region. In North America, we saw strong growth in Network Infrastructure and Cloud and Network Services, while Mobile Networks declined slightly. In APAC, India sales grew in Network Infrastructure, driven by strong demand for fixed wireless, while Mobile Network sales returned to some modest growth. Outside of the benefit we saw from Nokia Technologies, Europe was stable in quarter three.

現在我們來看看各地區的淨銷售額。在北美，網路基礎設施、雲端和網路服務領域實現了強勁成長，而行動網路領域則略有下降。在亞太地區，印度的網路基礎設施銷售額成長，這主要得益於對固定無線網路的強勁需求；而行動網路銷售額也恢復了適度成長。除了諾基亞科技帶來的收益外，歐洲在第三季保持穩定。

Now turning to our cash performance. We ended the quarter with a net cash position of EUR3 billion. Free cash flow was positive EUR49 million, consistent with our profit generation and well-managed working capital. We continue to target 50% to 80% free cash flow conversion from comparable operating profit for the full year.

現在來看我們的現金流表現。本季末，我們的淨現金部位為30億歐元。自由現金流為正值 4,900 萬歐元，與我們的獲利能力和良好的營運資本管理相符。我們持續以全年可比較營業利潤的自由現金流轉換率達到 50% 至 80% 為目標。

Thank you, Justin and Marco. Before we turn to the Q&A session, you should already have received an invitation to register for our Capital Markets Day, which as Justin mentioned, will be held in New York on the 19th of November. We hope as many of you as possible will be able to join us at the event.

謝謝賈斯汀和馬可。在進入問答環節之前，您應該已經收到註冊參加我們資本市場日的邀請，正如賈斯汀所提到的，該活動將於 11 月 19 日在紐約舉行。我們希望盡可能多的朋友能夠參加本次活動。

As usual, for the Q&A session, as a courtesy to others in the queue, can you please limit yourself to one question and a brief follow-up? Kelly, could you please give the instructions?

像往常一樣，在問答環節，為了不影響其他排隊的人，請您盡量只提一個問題，並簡要地補充說明。凱莉，你能給出操作說明嗎？

(Operator Instructions) I'll now hand back to David Mulholland.

（操作說明）現在我將把控制權交還給大衛·穆爾霍蘭德。

Artem Beletski, SEB.

Artem Beletski，SEB。

So my question would be relating to IP Networks and switching business on that front. So how do you see the progress on that front in general? And you have also set a target three quarters ago, when it comes to year 2028, so are you well tracking on it?

所以我的問題是關於IP網路以及這方面的交換業務。那麼，您如何看待這方面的整體進展？您在三個季度前就設定了到 2028 年的目標，那麼您目前的進展如何？

One second, could you start your question again, please? We had a slight technical issue on our side.

請稍等，您能重新問一次嗎？我們這邊出現了一點技術問題。

Yes, no worries. Can you hear me now?

是的，沒問題。現在你能聽到我說話嗎？

Yes, we can hear you.

是的，我們能聽到你們的聲音。

Okay. Great. So I would like to ask a question relating to IP Networks and your initiatives when it comes to data center and switching business. So you mentioned that you have some new design wins during the quarter, so how you're tracking against your target for 2028? And also, should we anticipate some contribution to revenues looking at upcoming quarters? Thank you.

好的。偉大的。因此，我想問一個與 IP 網路以及貴公司在資料中心和交換業務方面的舉措有關的問題。您提到本季獲得了一些新的設計訂單，那麼您距離 2028 年的目標還有多遠？另外，展望未來幾個季度，我們是否應該預期該公司會對營收做出一些貢獻？謝謝。

Yeah. So, Artem, I think as I've said in a couple of forums, but maybe just to share here, I think when we talk about EUR100 million incremental investment, the reality for me is that's a small portion of our overall capital. And so I don't think you'll see us focus on that metric going forward. What I will say about the business is, I was pleased with the wins. I'm pleased on the book-to-bill in IP networks overall.

是的。所以，阿爾捷姆，我想正如我在幾個論壇上說過的那樣，但也許在這裡也想分享一下，我認為當我們談到 1 億歐元的新增投資時，對我來說，現實情況是這只是我們總資本的一小部分。因此，我認為我們未來不會再把重點放在這個指標上了。關於公司業績，我想說的是，我對所取得的成績感到滿意。我對IP網路整體的訂單到帳單轉換率感到滿意。

But the reality, as we all know, is that we're still a fairly small player in this space, well behind some of the market leaders. So we're at the start of a journey. But the announcements we've made, I think are positive. The metrics are positive. It's much more work to be done longer term.

但我們都知道，現實情況是，我們在這個領域仍然只是一個相當小的參與者，遠遠落後於一些市場領導者。所以，我們正處於一段旅程的起點。但我認為我們發布的公告都是正面的。各項指標均為正面指標。從長遠來看，還有更多的工作要做。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Artem?

阿爾捷姆，你還有後續跟進嗎？

Yes, absolutely. So maybe more general question. So looking at your growth opportunities when it comes to AI and cloud, so it was 6% of sales in the quarter, so increased compared to Q2. But in general, looking at the next couple of years, where do you see the biggest growth opportunities looking at different customer segments? So whether it's like hyperscalers, enterprise or sovereign side, where you see the biggest opportunity for you?

是的，絕對的。所以，或許應該問一個更普遍的問題。因此，從人工智慧和雲端運算方面的成長機會來看，本季銷售額佔比為 6%，比第二季度有所增長。但總的來說，展望未來幾年，您認為在不同的客戶群中，最大的成長機會在哪裡？那麼，無論是超大規模資料中心、企業級資料中心或主權資料中心，您認為最大的機會在哪裡？

Yeah. I think, first of all, the biggest opportunity is clearly -- it's clearly in a -- is in the hyperscalers and the neocloud. So that's driving most of the demand. Obviously, the partnership with Nscale is a good example of our focus in this area. We've made other announcements in the past.

是的。我認為，首先，最大的機會顯然在於——顯然在於——在於超大規模資料中心和新雲端。所以這就是大部分需求的驅動因素。顯然，與 Nscale 的合作是我們在該領域重點投入的一個很好的例子。我們過去也曾發布過其他公告。

And we also believe that sovereign clouds will present a significant opportunity for us over time. As we've talked about before, we're optimistic about the work that's being done in the EU as well as in other regions. So we think that these are all important growth segments for us. But clearly, the demand today is largely coming from the hyperscalers and some of the larger neoclouds.

我們也相信，隨著時間的推移，主權雲將為我們帶來重要的機會。正如我們之前討論過的，我們對歐盟以及其他地區正在進行的工作持樂觀態度。所以我們認為這些都是我們重要的成長領域。但很顯然，目前的需求主要來自超大規模資料中心和一些規模較大的新型雲端服務商。

Simon Leopold, Raymond James.

西蒙·利奧波德，雷蒙德·詹姆斯。

So nice to hear about the progress in the hyperscalers. I want to dig a little bit more deeply here in that more recently, we've heard about an application refer to a scale across for optics, which I think of as basically data center interconnect on steroids. Could you talk a little bit about what this means for Nokia in particular and how you see that as an opportunity?

很高興聽到超大規模資料中心領域的進展。我想更深入地探討一下，最近我們聽說了一種用於光學領域的應用，稱為跨尺度傳輸，我認為這基本上就是資料中心互連的增強版。您能否談談這對諾基亞意味著什麼，以及您如何看待這是一個機會？

Yeah, sure, Simon. And I think it's something that's been around, obviously scale up or what's been talked about as scale across has been in networks for -- in data centers for a long time in certain parts of the market. So this isn't a new technology. But what is happening is as we push bandwidth demands, which obviously the AI data centers are driving, it's creating new demand for innovation in that space. And I think this is where the assets we have, I think, are well positioned.

當然可以，西蒙。我認為這種現像一直存在，顯然，規模化或說橫向擴展已經在網路和資料中心的某些市場領域存在了很長時間。所以這並不是一項新技術。但實際情況是，隨著我們對頻寬需求的不斷增長（這顯然是由人工智慧資料中心所推動的），這又為該領域的創新創造了新的需求。我認為，我們現有的資產在這方面發揮了很好的作用。

It's not a place where I can tell you we can point to it and say, we've got material revenue today. It's still early days. But I do think if you look at our assets here, particularly what we're doing in Indium Phosphide with the fab, the ability to build optical components down on the Indium Phosphide silicon and innovate and packaging in these areas, we think we've got technology that can be relevant here.

我無法告訴你，我們可以指著它說，我們今天已經有了實質的收入。現在下結論還為時過早。但我認為，如果你看看我們在這裡擁有的資產，特別是我們在磷化銦晶圓廠所做的工作，在磷化銦矽上製造光學元件的能力，以及在這些領域進行創新和封裝的能力，我們認為我們擁有與此相關的技術。

But obviously, as bandwidth demands continue in networks, both scale across and scale out, which is what we typically call -- we typically see in top-of-rack networking and IP switching, both of those create tremendous opportunity for us. And the way I would dimensionalize the opportunity in optical is -- we'll share more of this at CMD, is that every time you get to the next unit, if you go from the long-haul networks to the metro networks to the data center, inside the data center, then inside the rack, each one of those has incremental opportunity at a volume level.

但顯然，隨著網路頻寬需求的不斷增長，橫向擴展和橫向擴展（我們通常稱之為——我們通常在機架頂部網路和 IP 交換中看到）都為我們創造了巨大的機會。我對光纖領域機會的衡量方式是——我們將在 CMD 上分享更多——是，每次你進入下一個單元，如果你從長途網絡到城域網，再到數據中心，數據中心內部，然後是機架內部，每一個單元在容量層面上都有增量機遇。

Of course, there's a performance and cost delta you have to hit as well because what we build for long-haul networks is obviously going to be significantly more expensive than what you'd have to build to fit inside of a server inside of a rack. So there's a part of this that will require us to continue to innovate in this space. And you'll hear more about it in our discussions at CMD.

當然，性能和成本方面也必須有所平衡，因為我們為長途網路構建的東西顯然比為裝在機架中的伺服器構建的東西要貴得多。因此，這其中一部分需要我們在這個領域不斷創新。您將在CMD的討論中聽到更多相關內容。

Did you have a follow-up, Simon?

西蒙，你還有後續問題嗎？

Sure. Thank you. Yeah, I presume we'll talk about the long-term strategy, of course, at the Capital Markets Day. But I'm wondering if you could provide us a few thoughts on how Nokia's plan is regarding 6G mobility investments. Have you started investing? Is that in the R&D today? Is it something that starts in '26? Or is it something further out in time? I'm just really focused on modeling for the moment because I expect we'll hear some more at the Capital Markets Day next month. Thank you.

當然。謝謝。是的，我想我們當然會在資本市場日上討論長期策略。但我很想知道您能否就諾基亞在 6G 行動投資方面的計劃提供一些看法。你開始投資了嗎？這是目前研發中的項目嗎？這是從 2026 年開始的事嗎？或者，這是更遙遠的未來？我目前只專注於建模，因為我預計下個月的資本市場日上我們會聽到更多消息。謝謝。

Yes. So on technology standardization, which is obviously very important, relevant for tech, that work has already started and the investment is ongoing. And as I touched on in my comments, we're going to go through a bit of an investment -- you go through a bit of an investment cycle in that space. So that ramp is happening, and we obviously reiterated confidence on the ongoing profit outlook for Nokia Technologies as a part of that. So I think that gives you some indication from a modeling standpoint.

是的。因此，在技術標準化方面（這顯然非常重要，與科技息息相關），這項工作已經開始，投資也持續進行。正如我在評論中提到的，我們將經歷一段投資期——在這個領域，你會經歷一個投資週期。因此，成長動能正在增強，我們也在此過程中重申了對諾基亞科技公司持續獲利前景的信心。所以我認為這從建模的角度來看可以提供一些啟示。

For MN, we've talked about this publicly. We're doing work on -- early on 6G pre -- I'd say pre-standard 6G radio technology. There's more work here. I think the thing for me in this space is, and Simon, I've talked about this a little bit in comments as well is I think there's a lot of focus on -- for obvious reasons on the G transition, the 3G, 4G, 5G, 6G. I actually think what's more important for us is what we've done in Cloud and Network Services, which is the pivot to a cloud-native core.

對於明尼蘇達州，我們已經公開討論過這個問題。我們正在研究——早期 6G 預備——我可以說是預備標準的 6G 無線電技術。這裡還有更多的工作要做。我認為在這個領域，對我來說最重要的是，西蒙，我也在評論中稍微談到過這一點，我認為大家的關注點很大程度上集中在——顯而易見的原因——G 過渡，3G、4G、5G、6G。我認為對我們來說更重要的是我們在雲端和網路服務領域所做的工作，那就是向雲端原生核心的轉型。

And then you look at the results and the performance on share capture and revenue growth, I think that's a good indicator for how we see the -- we're going to start to think about the opportunity in RAN, which is as we go into AI and in MN, yes, there's going to be a new generation of radios in terms of -- hopefully, frequencies with spectrum approvals, and of course, 6G capabilities in terms of spectral efficiency. But there's a lot more to do in terms of radio capabilities and features.

然後，看看市場份額獲取和收入成長的結果和表現，我認為這是一個很好的指標，可以反映我們如何看待——我們將開始思考無線接入網 (RAN) 的機遇，隨著我們進入人工智慧 (AI) 和行動網路 (MN) 領域，是的，將會出現新一代無線電——希望能夠獲得頻譜批准的頻率，當然還有頻譜效率方面的 6G 功能。但就無線電功能和特性而言，還有很多工作要做。

And we've got -- this is why we announced things like the AI-RAN Alliance previously. It's where we see opportunity with our work in Cloud RAN, for example. And I think that's where we'll continue to invest. What will impact for you is that these are things that we need to focus on and invest and innovate, and of course, continue to work closely with customers. So we'll unpack that for you at CMD as well as how we're approaching that.

這就是我們之前宣布成立 AI-RAN 聯盟的原因。例如，我們在雲端無線存取網路（Cloud RAN）領域的工作就看到了機會。我認為我們會繼續在這個領域投資。對您而言，這意味著我們需要關注、投資和創新這些方面，當然，還要繼續與客戶密切合作。所以，在 CMD 大會上，我們會詳細為您解讀這一點，以及我們是如何著手解決這個問題的。

But I wouldn't assume that we haven't -- it's a binary thing where we haven't started. It's a part of ongoing investment.

但我不會假設我們沒有開始——這是一個非此即彼的問題，要嘛我們還沒開始，要嘛我們還沒開始。這是持續投資的一部分。

Alex Duval, Goldman Sachs.

Alex Duval，高盛集團。

Firstly, just dovetailing off the last question, I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about the long-term tech strategy on wireless. Just in the short term, you talked about a measure of stabilization there. I wondered if you could give a bit more color as to the extent to which that's driven by the RAN market in your most important geographies versus progress you've made on your product.

首先，剛好承接上一個問題，我非常期待聽到更多關於無線領域長期技術策略的資訊。就短期而言，你談到了那裡的某種程度的穩定。我想知道您能否更詳細地說明一下，在您最重要的地區，這在多大程度上是由 RAN 市場驅動的，又在多大程度上是由您的產品進展驅動的。

And then secondly, it was interesting to hear in your prepared remarks about how you will focus on cost control by ongoing steps like digitalization rather than large restructuring programs, wondered if at this point you could talk a bit more about what motivates that shift and the benefits this brings?

其次，您在準備好的演講稿中提到，您將透過數位化等持續措施來控製成本，而不是進行大規模的重組計劃，這讓我很感興趣。我想知道您能否再詳細談談促使您做出這種轉變的原因以及這種轉變帶來的好處？

Maybe start with the second part, Marco. Do you want to talk about that? And I will --

或許可以先從第二部開始，馬可。你想談談這件事嗎？我將--

Yeah, absolutely. And when it comes to cost savings, just like I mentioned in my introduction as well, so thinking is that operational leverage is extremely important for us and continuous improvement is something that we want to get in our genes that every entity basically continuously find ways, how can we continuously improve and do things more efficiently.

是的，絕對的。至於節約成本，正如我在引言中提到的那樣，我們認為營運槓桿對我們來說極其重要，持續改進是我們希望融入我們基因的，讓每個實體都能不斷尋找方法，如何才能持續改進並更有效率地做事。

And of course, here comes quite naturally in the new technologies, utilizing AI and other digitalization opportunities that you can find, and that's why IT simplification is extremely important in this and securing that we can actually get the benefit out of those different installations of AI that we have and continuously work on the process simplification and find ways how we can make the processes more efficient continuously. And it's not a one-off action. It's something that you have to do continuously.

當然，新技術，例如人工智慧和其他數位化機遇，自然而然地帶來了新的機會。因此，IT 簡化至關重要，我們需要確保能夠真正從現有的各種人工智慧部署中獲益，並不斷致力於流程簡化，尋找持續提高流程效率的方法。而且這並非一次性事件。這是需要持續不斷做的事情。

Yeah. And then, in terms of the market outlook, first of all, I think you're pretty clear from what we've been saying that if you think about the AI and cloud market growing rapidly, the CSP market broadly has been quite stable. So as we think about that, when I look at our results, I think stabilizing in MN in terms of our performance being predictable, there's always puts and takes. There's going to be ups and downs in the quarter and variance based on a given customer's volume in one quarter. So we'll see a little bit of that.

是的。然後，就市場前景而言，首先，我認為從我們一直在說的內容來看，如果你考慮到人工智慧和雲端運算市場快速成長，那麼CSP市場總體上一直相當穩定。所以當我們思考這個問題時，當我審視我們的結果時，我認為在明尼蘇達州，我們的表現趨於穩定，具有可預測性，但總會有起伏。本季業績會有起伏，並且會因特定客戶在一個季度的訂單量而有所不同。所以我們會看到一些這方面的內容。

But when you look at the longer-term trends, I think we're feeling better about a stabilizing environment. And then, on Cloud and Network Services, as I touched on, we believe that -- we believe we're growing above market rates at this point.

但從長遠趨勢來看，我認為我們對環境趨於穩定更有信心。然後，關於雲端和網路服務，正如我剛才提到的，我們認為——我們認為我們目前的成長速度高於市場平均。

Sami Sarkamies, Danske Bank.

薩米·薩卡米斯，丹麥銀行。

Could you please elaborate on the factors that drove the positive surprise in the third quarter as you had anticipated similar sales and margins as in Q2? And when we think about Q4, you also mentioned a strong order book, but do you have still uncertainties related to timing of deliveries as you chose not to narrow the guidance range down?

能否詳細說明一下第三季業績超出預期的原因？因為您之前預計第三季的銷售額和利潤率將與第二季持平。當我們展望第四季時，您也提到了強勁的訂單量，但由於您選擇不縮小業績指引範圍，您是否仍然對交貨時間有不確定性？

Yeah. Thank you, Sami. And what comes to them -- if you look at gross margin development in different businesses, you can see that we had a very good development in Cloud and Network Services. And here, as you understand, this business has been quite frequently so that you get a big part of the profits in quarter four. Now this year, we have been working actively to try to actually balance that distribution of profits more equally between the different quarters.

是的。謝謝你，薩米。而由此可見——如果你看一下不同業務的毛利率發展情況，你會發現我們在雲端服務和網路服務方面取得了非常好的發展。正如你所了解的，這項業務經常會這樣，所以你會在第四季度獲得很大一部分利潤。今年，我們一直在積極努力，力求使不同季度之間的利潤分配更加均衡。

But at the same time, you see also that we have increased our gross margins, and there's a few reasons for this. One is, of course, that we've seen a good traction on 5G stand-alone core implementations, where we have been very successful in gaining market share. And then, of course, we've been working quite a long time in the CNS as well to clean up the portfolio. And this, of course, giving result as well. And the third point I would say as well is that also in our core business, CNS has been working heavily to take cost out and make things more efficiently, and by that, improving the margin levels.

但同時，您也會看到我們的毛利率提高，這有幾個原因。當然，首先，我們在 5G 獨立組網核心網部署方面取得了良好的進展，我們在市場份額方面取得了非常成功的進展。當然，我們也一直在 CNS 領域努力清理投資組合，這項工作已經持續了很長時間。當然，這樣做也會產生效果。第三點我想說的是，在我們的核心業務中，CNS 也一直在努力降低成本，提高效率，進而提高利潤率。

Do you have a follow-up, Sami?

薩米，你還有後續問題嗎？

Maybe a detail question on the 6% exposure to AI and cloud in the third quarter. I think you mentioned 5% hyperscaler exposure at Q2. These are different metrics, right?

或許可以詳細詢問第三季在人工智慧和雲端運算領域 6% 的投資佔比。我記得你曾提到第二季對超大規模資料中心的投資比例為 5%。這些是不同的衡量標準，對吧？

These are comparable, Sami. So think of the 5% -- 6% as Q3.

薩米，這些是可以相提並論的。所以，把這 5% 到 6% 看成是第三季。

Richard Kramer, Arete.

理查德·克雷默，Arete。

Justin, when we look at your competitors into the various NI divisions, many of them are point solutions in one or another of the fields of routing, optics or fixed. In the current hyperscaler and tech, are these areas being kept separate? Or do you think that the end-to-end promise we heard about so much from both of the prior CEOs at Nokia is finally being realized at least within NI?

Justin，當我們審視你的競爭對手，特別是NI的各個部門時，會發現他們中的許多人都是在路由、光纖或固定網路等領域提供點解決方案。在目前的超大規模資料中心和技術領域，這些領域是否被分隔開來？或者，您是否認為，我們從諾基亞前兩任CEO那裡聽到的關於端到端的承諾，至少在諾基亞內部，最終正在實現？

Well, I think a couple of things on this, Richard. So first of all, for me, clearly, fixed access is its own business, and the technology and innovation there is coming out of a few markets. I mean, the largest one for us, obviously, is in the US, but there's other markets where we're seeing technology and innovation opportunities, and so, I think that's almost its own trend.

嗯，理查德，關於這個問題我有幾點想法。首先，對我來說，很明顯，固定接取是一個獨立的產業，而該領域的技術和創新都來自少數市場。我的意思是，對我們來說，最大的市場顯然是美國，但我們也在其他市場看到了技術和創新機遇，所以我認為這幾乎可以算是一種獨立的趨勢。

And I shared -- obviously, I shared the discussion around the 50-gig PON, but this capability that we have to allow you to add new technologies in line in your terminals, we think is a true differentiator. We hear that from customers, the customers using it, believe it gives them value because they can -- they don't have to invest in a complete infrastructure upgrade to overhaul.

我分享了——顯然，我分享了關於 50G PON 的討論，但我們擁有的這種允許您在終端中添加新技術的能力，我們認為這是一個真正的差異化優勢。我們從客戶那裡了解到，使用該服務的客戶認為它為他們帶來了價值，因為他們無需投資進行全面的基礎設施升級即可進行改造。

The key message there is we're competing on the technology's merits itself. And I think if you look at IP switching and certainly in optical networking, I would say the same. We've got to win on the technical merit themselves. I mean, we've got very capable customers across our portfolio, AI and cloud as well as CSPs that want to buy best-of-breed technologies and enable their solutions and execute on their strategies and deliver value to their customers. And our focus has to be on doing the things that add value to them.

關鍵訊息是，我們是在憑藉科技本身的優勢展開競爭。我認為，如果你看看 IP 交換，尤其是光網絡，我也會這麼說。我們必須憑藉自身的技術實力贏得比賽。我的意思是，我們在人工智慧、雲端運算以及通訊服務供應商等領域擁有眾多實力雄厚的客戶，他們都希望購買一流的技術，以實現其解決方案，執行其策略，並為客戶創造價值。我們必須專注於做那些能為他們創造價值的事情。

And where I think there's leverage and synergy for us is being able to see what's happening across these markets and bring greater scale and innovation to them. But I think that, for me, the term isn't end-to-end. It's -- you've always got to have best-of-breed products, best-of-breed technology, and then, you've got to be able to leverage the ecosystem so that you're -- obviously, you're better together, but it's not something that we do that soon we can have a deficiency in one area. That's certainly not how we think about it.

我認為我們能夠利用這些市場的變化，並將它們規模擴大、創新帶入這些市場，這就是我們的優勢和協同效應所在。但我認為，對我而言，這個術語並不是一個完整的概念。你必須始終擁有最好的產品、最好的技術，然後，你必須能夠利用生態系統，這樣——顯然，你們在一起會更好，但這並不是我們做得太快，以至於在某個領域出現不足的事情。我們當然不是那樣想的。

And just building over Justin, a sense that, of course, the compatibility is very important. So that's a benefit that we can get compared to competition, which only go with one product. And when we come with several products, and they are best of breed, and customer wants to buy those, that those actually work well together.

而且，在賈斯汀身上，也逐漸形成了一種感覺，當然，相容性非常重要。所以這是我們相對於競爭對手的優勢，因為他們只提供一種產品。當我們推出幾款產品，而且它們都是同類產品中的佼佼者，客戶也想購買這些產品，並且這些產品能夠很好地協同工作時。

Did you have a follow-up, Richard?

理查德，你還有後續問題嗎？

Yeah. Quick one, quickly for Marco. We saw a reduction in your forecast restructuring cash outflows from EUR450 million to EUR350 million and an increase of EUR50 million in gross cost savings. Is this Nokia finally transitioning from what's been a decade-long restructuring to maybe being able to focus more beyond '26 on just growth?

是的。快點，快點給馬可。我們看到您預測的重組現金流出從 4.5 億歐元減少到 3.5 億歐元，總成本節約增加了 5,000 萬歐元。諾基亞終於結束了長達十年的重組，開始將重心從 2026 年轉移到 2026 年後的成長上？

Yeah. I would say that the important thing is that we want to avoid this large-scale restructuring programs going forward and more get this into our DNA as continuous improvement and cost focused and secure that we continuously find ways how we can take out cost in our fixed cost basis and our operations and utilize all the digitalization opportunities that could bring instead of doing this large-scale cost-cutting programs. So that's our focus going forward.

是的。我認為重要的是，我們希望避免今後進行大規模的重組計劃，而是將持續改進和成本控制融入我們的企業文化，確保我們不斷尋找降低固定成本和運營成本的方法，並利用數位化帶來的所有機會，而不是進行大規模的成本削減計劃。所以這就是我們接下來的工作重點。

Felix Henriksson, Nordea.

Felix Henriksson，北歐銀行。

Good to see Infinera turning positive on operating profit contribution. And I wanted to ask about that, that in light of the progress that you made on integration, do you see the EUR200 million in run rate operating profit synergies for 2027 as conservative? And are these savings something that you will have to reinvest in the growth in the optical business, kind of what you're doing in the IP side of things? Thanks.

很高興看到Infinera的營業利潤貢獻轉為正值。我想問一下，鑑於你們在整合方面取得的進展，你們是否認為 2027 年 2 億歐元的營運利潤綜效是保守的？這些節省下來的資金是否會像你們在智慧財產權領域所做的那樣，再投資於光學業務的成長呢？謝謝。

Yeah, multiple questions in there. So let me sort of answer. First of all, yes, we'll provide a full update at CMD on our view. But I would say, certainly well on track on our commitments as we've talked about on the cost synergies, clearly, with the growth that we're seeing ahead of our expectations on topline synergies. And then I think in terms of investment, what I would say is we'll talk more about that in CMD, but we're going to be very disciplined in capital allocation.

是的，裡面有好幾個問題。讓我來簡單回答一下。首先，是的，我們將在 CMD 會議上全面更新我們的觀點。但我想說，我們在成本協同效應方面顯然進展順利，正如我們之前討論的那樣，我們看到的收入協同效應增長也超出了預期。至於投資方面，我想說的是，我們會在 CMD 會議上詳細討論這個問題，但我們會在資本配置方面非常謹慎。

Obviously, you saw one dimension of that with our decision on venture funds this quarter. But this is a place where if we see the opportunity to accelerate or enhance returns, we'll make continued investments. But right now, I think, again, pleased to be on track on the cost synergies and thrilled to be running ahead of expectations on revenue.

顯然，從我們本季對創投基金的決定中，你們已經看到了這一點的一個面向。但是，如果在這裡我們看到加速或提高回報的機會，我們會繼續投資。但就目前而言，我很高興成本協同效應方面進展順利，並且很高興收入超出預期。

Rob Sanders, Deutsche Bank.

羅布桑德斯，德意志銀行。

I just had a question on Mobile Networks. Some speculation that the EU will apply pressure on some member countries to accelerate their swap out of Chinese vendors. So I'm just interested in that. And how you think about that, given your recent public statements? And then, of course, I just want to talk a bit about OpEx, how you're thinking about OpEx into next year, given you clearly wanted to invest more in these growth areas? Thanks.

我有一個關於行動網路的問題。有猜測認為，歐盟將向一些成員國施壓，加快淘汰中國供應商的步伐。所以我對這個很有興趣。鑑於你最近發表的公開言論，你對此有何看法？當然，接下來我還想談談營運支出（OpEx），鑑於您顯然希望在這些成長領域投入更多資金，您對明年的營運支出有何考慮？謝謝。

Yeah. So Rob, thanks for that. First of all, I mean, obviously, we're -- we would love to see regulations in the EU that create the market opportunity you're talking about. And I think it's important from a high-risk vendor standpoint, it's also important from a -- just from a sovereignty perspective in terms of having the two largest providers of networks, in the West being European. I think that's important.

是的。羅伯，謝謝你。首先，我的意思是，很顯然，我們非常希望看到歐盟推出相關法規，創造您所謂的市場機會。我認為從高風險供應商的角度來看，這很重要；從主權角度來看，擁有西方最大的兩個網路提供者（歐洲）也很重要。我認為這很重要。

We're optimistic that we would be able to obviously grow in that, capture some portion of that market if it was available. Number two, in terms of the OpEx question was really just around operating leverage, I think our -- my push is really specific on this is I want to see us drive operating leverage, something Marco touched on in his comments, but the reason for that is because I want to be able to maximize returns in terms of capturing value from the business we have and then deploy capital in areas where we think we can win, things like incremental R&D if there's demand in the market, things like increasing factory capacity and optics to the extent that we see opportunities there. And it's important we talk a lot about the fabrication facilities.

我們樂觀地認為，如果市場開放，我們顯然能夠發展壯大，並佔據一部分市場份額。第二點，關於營運支出問題，其實就是圍繞營運槓桿的。我認為我們——我在這方面的重點是——我希望看到我們提高營運槓桿，Marco在他的評論中也提到了這一點。這樣做的原因是，我希望能夠最大限度地提高我們現有業務的價值回報，然後將資本部署到我們認為可以取得成功的領域，例如，如果市場有需求，就增加研發投入；或者，如果看到機會，就增加工廠產能和光學設備。而且，我們必須多談談製造設施。

These are far smaller than you think of a fabrication facility in silicon. And actually, the investment sizes are much smaller. And again, we'll unpack more of that for you at CMD. But those are the kinds of things I want to be able to deploy capital into, obviously, incremental sales coverage where we're seeing growth in AI. But I would think of all of this as driving enhanced returns, not something that's going to -- not going to dilute our performance, and that's key.

這些比你想像中的矽製造工廠小得多。實際上，投資規模要小得多。我們會在 CMD 上為您詳細解讀更多內容。但顯然，我希望能夠將資金投入人工智慧領域，以擴大銷售覆蓋率，因為我們看到人工智慧領域正在成長。但我認為所有這些都會推動收益提升，而不是會——不會稀釋我們的業績，這才是關鍵。

Andrew Gardiner, Citi.

安德魯·加德納，花旗銀行。

I just had one on gross profitability, please, both I suppose on the positive side and what you've seen in CNS, and then, perhaps on the more negative side with Mobile Networks. We're seeing quite a lot of volatility quarter-to-quarter. CNS clearly driven nicely in 3Q by the mix towards 5G core. Is that mix sustainable? And so high 40s gross margin for CNS is what we should be anticipating? Yeah, perhaps with some quarterly fluctuation, but perhaps not to the extent that we've been seeing, right? Can you sustain gross margins around that level?

我剛剛做了一個關於毛利潤率的分析，請問，既要從積極的方面分析一下，比如你在 CNS 中看到的情況，也要從移動網絡方面分析一下消極的方面。我們看到季度環比波動相當大。CNS 在第三季明顯受到 5G 核心網轉型的推動。這種混合模式可持續嗎？所以，中樞神經系統（CNS）的毛利率應該在40%以上嗎？是的，或許會有一些季度波動，但或許不會像我們看到的那麼劇烈，對吧？你能維持在這個毛利率水準嗎？

And then similarly, on the other side with Mobile, 41% in the prior quarter, down to 35% in the current quarter. Yes, I understand again, software mix has changed, but quite dramatic moves. What do you think is sort of a more normalized level given the revenue run rate that you're at in Mobile? What's a more normalized level of gross margin for MN at this point? Thank you.

同樣，在行動端方面，上一季為 41%，本季下降至 35%。是的，我明白了，軟體組合發生了變化，但變化幅度相當大。考慮到你們目前在行動端的收入成長率，你認為一個比較正常的水平應該是多少？目前MN公司較為正常的毛利率水準為多少？謝謝。

Yeah. Thank you. If I start with the Mobile Network side, there is variability, and that's why we usually see that Mobile Networks would be better to look on an annual basis of four quarters because you have always some product mix fluctuations. The level of software has a big impact on gross margin, and that you see also between quarter two and quarter three, while we see this fluctuation between those quarters where you have more software in quarter two and less in quarter three. And I would say that if you look on a longer-term or annual basis, then you can see the levels of Mobile Networks gross margins and get an understanding of where it is and how we are tracking compared to previous year.

是的。謝謝。如果從行動網路方面來看，情況會比較複雜，所以我們通常認為行動網路最好以四個季度為一個年度來觀察，因為產品組合總是會有一些波動。軟體水準對毛利率有很大的影響，這一點在第二季和第三季之間也有所體現，我們看到這兩個季度之間存在波動，第二季軟體較多，而第三季軟體較少。我想說，如果從更長遠或年度的角度來看，你就可以看到行動網路毛利率的水平，並了解它目前處於什麼位置，以及我們與前一年相比的進展。

And then when it comes to CNS, I mentioned already a few points there that are the reasons for the improved gross margins. And we definitely believe that it is sustainable. And this has been a multiyear journey to get the improvements here, cleaning up the portfolio, focus on cost out on the different products that we have. But also, we see the market support here. It took for a while before the 5G stand-alone core started to get traction actually from our customer side and CSP side.

至於中樞神經系統方面，我已經提到了一些導致毛利率提高的原因。我們堅信它是可持續的。為了實現這些改進，我們經歷了多年的努力，包括清理產品組合、降低不同產品的成本。但我們也看到了市場的支持。5G 獨立組網核心網花了很長時間才真正從我們的客戶方和 CSP 方獲得認可。

Now, we've seen in the past 18 months that it actually have been quite positive, and we have momentum there. And thanks to our cloud-based solution that we have, we have actually gained market share and been able to improve our market position.

現在，在過去的18個月裡，我們看到情況實際上相當積極，而且我們正處於上升勢頭。由於我們基於雲端的解決方案，我們實際上已經獲得了市場份額，並提高了我們的市場地位。

Daniel Djurberg, Handelsbanken.

丹尼爾‧朱爾伯格，德國商業銀行。

Congrats to the strong numbers. I actually would like to continue on that question, I heard the same more or less. On the Mobile Networks, the software upgrades on stand-alone seems not to be in tandem, at least, with the CNS on the 5G core. So should we expect to have a little bit of an upgrade in the baseband software, radio unit software or ahead of us on back of the 5G stand-alone core now being litigation on? Thanks.

祝賀取得如此優異的成績。我其實也想繼續探討這個問題，我聽到的說法也差不多。在行動網路中，獨立網路的軟體升級似乎與 5G 核心網路的 CNS 不同步。那麼，鑑於目前 5G 獨立核心網路正面臨訴訟，我們是否應該預期基頻軟體、無線電單元軟體或相關技術會有一些升級？謝謝。

Usually -- I can start, and Justin, if you have anything you can add as well. What usually happens is in the new generation is that you first install the hardware basement and radios, and when you see that the demand increases on the customer side, then you actually implement the core as well when you see that actually you need those features that the new generation can offer.

通常情況下——我可以先開始，賈斯汀，如果你有什麼補充，也可以說說。通常情況下，新世代產品會先安裝硬體基礎架構和無線電模組，當發現客戶方面的需求增加時，才會真正實現核心功能，因為那時使用者確實需要新世代產品所能提供的功能。

And this is exactly the same example here in 5G. In the beginning, the 4G core was still functional quite well and on the early 5G installations. And now, when there's more opportunities to slice and dice the network, you need actually a 5G stand-alone core to be able to capture those opportunities and offer those services to a customer base.

5G 中也存在完全相同的例子。起初，4G核心網仍然運作良好，並且在早期的5G部署中運作良好。現在，隨著網路切片和分割的機會增多，您實際上需要一個 5G 獨立核心網才能抓住這些機會，並向客戶群提供這些服務。

I would just add a couple of things. I think we're -- we want to make sure we're clear on that the Q2 to Q3 margin impact in MN is timing because of how we release software in this portfolio, which is we release an upgrade, we then recognize the revenue of those upgrades as they get deployed into customers, and they -- largely customers take their release. And so that's the timing dimension between Q2 and Q3, but also realize that the MN baseband software, which is the majority of the software revenue we have in Mobile Networks today, is still largely in a legacy -- what I would call, more legacy appliance model.

我只想補充幾點。我認為我們——我們想確保我們清楚，明尼蘇達州第二季度到第三季度的利潤率影響是時間上的，因為我們在這個產品組合中發佈軟體的方式是，我們發布升級，然後在這些升級部署到客戶時確認這些升級的收入，而客戶——基本上是接受他們的版本。所以這就是第二季和第三季之間的時間維度，但也要意識到，MN 基頻軟體（這是我們目前在行動網路軟體收入的大部分）仍然主要處於傳統狀態——我稱之為更傳統的設備模式。

Cloud and Network Services or our core networks have moved to a cloud model. And that means you have much -- we have more subscription-based pricing. We have more ratable deployment. That means customers will be paying on a recurring revenue basis for an ongoing support and service. So whether it's subscription-based models there, it's a very different -- it's a different business model in that dynamic. Obviously, we think that's the long-term direction of travel in Mobile, but that's not where the market is today. Today, our Cloud RAN business is fairly small.

雲端和網路服務或我們的核心網路已遷移到雲端模式。這意味著您有很多選擇——我們有更多基於訂閱的定價模式。我們擁有更多可評估的部署方案。這意味著客戶將以經常性收入方式付費，以獲得持續的支援和服務。所以，無論是訂閱模式還是其他模式，在這種動態下，都是非常不同的商業模式。顯然，我們認為這是行動領域的長期發展方向，但就目前市場而言，情況並非如此。目前，我們的雲端無線接取網路業務規模相當小。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Daniel?

丹尼爾，你有什麼後續跟進嗎？

Yes, please. Yes, just a question on -- a little bit on your work -- already in Q2, you commented to unify corporate functions, simplify work, et cetera, and more change culture a bit to unlock the operating leverage. And then you've seen quite a large changes, especially in the new CTO office. And my question is on the Nokia Bell Labs organization. Should we expect this to be more focusing on AI data center than on the Mobile Networks and Radio Access Networks ahead given the departure of Nishant Batra?

好的，謝謝。是的，我有個關於您工作的問題——您在第二季度曾表示要統一公司職能、簡化工作等等，並稍微改變一下企業文化，以釋放營運槓桿。然後，您會看到相當大的變化，尤其是在新的技術長辦公室。我的問題是關於諾基亞貝爾實驗室的組織架構。鑑於 Nishant Batra 的離職，我們是否應該預期未來的重點會更多地放在人工智慧資料中心，而不是行動網路和無線存取網路？

Yeah. Look, I think for me, a couple of things. First of all, I talked about functional excellence, which was the purpose around the corporate functions. And I think having a leader that is the Chief Technology and AI officer that's focused on technology and AI, key areas of our platforms, AI, security, cloud, all of those elements that we're touching on or talking around on this call today is very important. And having someone who's excellent in that, but also understands fixed -- our fixed network infrastructure business and mobile infrastructure.

是的。我覺得對我來說，有兩件事。首先，我談到了職能卓越，這是圍繞公司職能的目標。我認為，擁有一位專注於技術和人工智慧的首席技術和人工智慧官，專注於我們平台的關鍵領域，包括人工智慧、安全、雲，以及我們今天在電話會議上談到的所有要素，這一點非常重要。我們需要一位既精通此領域，又了解固定網路基礎設施業務和行動基礎設施的人才。

And if you look at Pallavi's background, she has a career where she's done both across Juniper, HPE and then also at Intel. And then the other thing was focused around corporate development, and that was not just out of the strategy organization, but also bringing together some of the corporate development folks we had within the business groups and also within the finance organization. So for me, this is all about -- around functional excellence and aligning accountability and having cleaner and simple functions. And then obviously, we also moved the digital office or the IT organization into finance, which really ties back to the focus that Marco touched on in his comments around driving ongoing improvement, ongoing productivity and enabling that through digitization, through AI, through simplification around processes. And obviously, IT is an important part of how you both simplify and standardize and realize those benefits.

如果你看看帕拉維的背景，你會發現她曾在瞻博網路、HPE 和英特爾等公司工作過。另一件事則著重於企業發展，這不僅來自策略部門，還匯集了我們業務部門和財務部門的一些企業發展人員。對我來說，這一切都圍繞著——卓越的功能、明確的責任劃分以及更清晰、更簡單的功能。顯然，我們也把數位辦公室或 IT 組織轉移到了財務部門，這與 Marco 在評論中提到的重點密切相關，即透過數位化、人工智慧和流程簡化來推動持續改進和持續提高生產力。顯然，IT 在簡化流程、標準化流程以及實現這些優勢方面發揮著重要作用。

And so we felt like that was a natural alignment. So I think that's the way I would think about it. I think it's important we have two compelling assets in both our network infrastructure business and our mobile portfolios. And we had a CTO that can look across all of that and also make sure that we're thinking about the right long-term investments in Nokia Bell Labs, whether it's from a research or from a near-term innovation standpoint.

因此，我們覺得這是一種自然而然的契合。所以我想我會這樣想。我認為，我們在網路基礎設施業務和行動產品組合中擁有兩項極具吸引力的資產至關重要。我們有一位技術官，他能夠統籌全局，並確保我們從研究或近期創新角度出發，對諾基亞貝爾實驗室進行正確的長期投資。

Emil Immonen, DNB Carnegie.

埃米爾·伊莫寧，DNB 卡內基。

So I wanted to maybe ask a little bit on the demand in Europe in general. So on the revenue decline on some parts in NI and also in Mobile Networks in Europe, do you see that this is more, let's say, structural? Or would you say that this is temporary in the way that Europe is just not investing right now? How do you see this developing going forward?

所以我想稍微了解一下歐洲的整體需求狀況。那麼，對於北愛爾蘭部分地區以及歐洲行動網路收入的下降，您認為這更多是結構性問題嗎？或者您會說，這種情況只是暫時的，因為歐洲目前只是沒有投資？您認為未來會如何發展？

Yeah. I think in terms of CSPs -- I think that I would say telcos, it's stabilizing demand, and we think that's a good thing. Obviously, we talked about the potential of upside in Europe over time if there's regulation that addresses high-risk vendor status. But I think overall, that feels pretty good. And then look, we're excited about the potential of AI and data center business in Europe.

是的。我認為就通訊服務供應商（CSP）而言——我認為應該說是電信業者，它正在穩定需求，我們認為這是一件好事。顯然，我們討論瞭如果歐洲出台法規來解決高風險供應商問題，那麼隨著時間的推移，歐洲可能會出現上漲空間。但我覺得整體感覺還不錯。而且，我們對人工智慧和資料中心業務在歐洲的潛力感到非常興奮。

We're certainly excited about the opportunity we -- the partnership we have with Nscale and the opportunity for other companies to invest in Europe. And so we like the trends of what we're seeing. But the reality is the majority of the investment today is happening in the US. And so, as you look at our revenues and you look at our profile, the demand is coming from the US, and I think that's important. So that's how I would net it out.

我們當然對與 Nscale 建立的合作關係以及其他公司在歐洲投資的機會感到興奮。因此，我們對目前看到的趨勢感到滿意。但現實情況是，如今大部分投資都發生在美國。所以，當你查看我們的收入和我們的概況時，你會發現需求來自美國，我認為這很重要。這就是我的最終計算結果。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Emil?

埃米爾，你有什麼後續跟進嗎？

Yeah. Maybe quickly touching on the private wireless side. The customer numbers grow nicely, but you haven't really discussed it at all in terms of revenue or anything. Could you say how is that part of the business going?

是的。或許可以簡單談談私人無線網路方面。客戶數量成長良好，但你完全沒有從收入或其他方面來討論。您能說說這部分業務的進展嗎？

Yeah. Just like you said, we've seen a nice increase in number of customers. But remember, we are still in a very early phase of this journey. And even if growth rates are pretty good, but it will take some time before this will be a meaningful business. So it's worth focusing more about that.

是的。正如您所說，我們的客戶數量確實有了顯著成長。但請記住，我們仍處於這段旅程的早期階段。即使成長率相當不錯，但這還需要一段時間才能成為一項有意義的業務。所以值得多多關注這一點。

Yeah. And I would just add, I think if you look at where we are today, I think Marco summarized it well, I would tell you that where I see our biggest opportunity is in focused vertical markets -- vertical market use cases. And so there's some examples in railways, for example, and utilities is the other, right? So if you look at those, those are the places where we've got opportunity. But again, this goes back to that message of focus.

是的。我還要補充一點，我認為，如果你看看我們今天所處的位置，我認為馬可總結得很好，我會告訴你，我認為我們最大的機會在於專注的垂直市場——垂直市場用例。例如，鐵路業就有一些這樣的例子，公用事業產業也是如此，對吧？所以，如果你看看這些地方，你會發現我們有機會。但這又回到了專注這個主題。

Sebastien Sztabowicz, Kepler Cheuvreux.

塞巴斯蒂安·薩塔博維奇，開普勒·肖弗勒。

Coming back to Mobile Networks. Your business is going back to moderate organic growth in the third quarter, but to remain close to breakeven level those days, how do you plan to return to more decent margins in the coming years, maybe not double digit, but maybe high single digit? Is it more cost cutting? Is it more to support your revenue with more growth opportunity?

回到行動網路話題。您的企業在第三季度恢復了適度的內生成長，但為了保持接近盈虧平衡點，您計劃如何在未來幾年恢復到更可觀的利潤率，也許不是兩位數，但也許能達到較高的個位數？這是進一步削減成本嗎？這樣做是為了透過更多的成長機會來提升收入嗎？

And the second question is also linked to Mobile. We have heard some comment that the Chinese government could be looking to push the network vendors in Europe outside the Chinese market. Is this something that you already see in your order intake in China? Or is this not something that you see already in your business? Thank you.

第二個問題也與行動裝置有關。我們聽到一些評論說，中國政府可能正在考慮將歐洲的網路設備供應商驅逐出中國市場。您在中國的訂單量中已經觀察到這種情況了嗎？或者，這種情況在你的企業中已經出現了嗎？謝謝。

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I addressed this a little bit in my comments. I mean, I think on Mobile Networks, we're absolutely -- one of my priorities right now is on improving the returns. And I think we do that in a couple of ways, continued tight focus and tight engagement with customers.

是的。絕對地。我的意思是，我在評論中稍微提到過這一點。我的意思是，我認為在行動網路方面，我們絕對是——我現在的首要任務之一就是提高回報率。我認為我們透過兩種方式實現了這一點：持續密切關注客戶並與其保持密切聯繫。

It ties a little bit to the second question you asked, which I'll address in a minute, but tight focused engagement with customers, particularly those customers that want to co-innovate and collaborate with us because I think differentiation for us longer term comes through innovation and technology leadership. That was historically where the market was.

這和您提出的第二個問題有點關係，我稍後會談到，但與客戶進行緊密而專注的互動，特別是那些希望與我們共同創新和合作的客戶，因為我認為從長遠來看，我們的差異化優勢來自於創新和技術領先地位。從歷史上看，市場一直都處於那個位置。

I would say that obviously, if you go back five years, the business -- the company's business was in dire straits because we weren't in that case. We've now stabilized the portfolio. But as an industry, and I think certainly as a player in this industry, we need to continue to innovate. So that's as much of a preview as I'll give you to CMD, but I'd encourage you to attend. But I think absolutely, that's the line of where we're headed.

顯然，如果回顧五年前，公司當時的經營狀況非常糟糕，因為我們當時的情況並非如此。我們現在已經穩定了投資組合。但作為一個產業，我認為身為這個產業的參與者，我們更需要不斷創新。這就是我能給你們的關於 CMD 的全部預告了，但我鼓勵你們去參加。但我認為，這絕對是我們前進的方向。

And then in terms of China, this is one of the places where we largely -- were largely not exposed. The revenue in China has come down massively over the last few years. So the reality is it's a fraction of our revenue today, and our market share is fractional in Mobile Networks in China. It's not a core market for us. So the communications from the government, obviously, we follow those closely. We respect and support their decisions. And the reality for us is we're going to focus on markets where we believe there's significant opportunity and customers where we believe we can collaborate and innovate. And I think there's more opportunity ahead for us.

至於中國，這是我們基本上沒有接觸過的地方之一。過去幾年，中國市場的收入大幅下降。所以現實情況是，它只占我們目前收入的一小部分，而且我們在中國行動網路市場的份額也微乎其微。這並非我們的核心市場。所以，我們當然會密切關注政府發布的各種資訊。我們尊重並支持他們的決定。對我們來說，現實情況是，我們將專注於我們認為有重大機會的市場，以及我們認為可以與之合作和創新的客戶。我認為我們未來還有更多機會。

Didier Scemama, Bank of America.

Didier Scemama，美國銀行。

A question for Justin, really. You've been in the job now for a few months. I just wondered if you could share your thoughts about the direction of the business strategically, especially when it comes to the Mobile Networks, the core activities and also IPR, which are vastly different, I guess, from your day-to-day activities, which presumably are focused on getting those AI and cloud contracts. So that was my first question, and I've got a quick follow-up. Thank you.

這其實是個問賈斯汀的問題。你入職已經幾個月了。我只是想請您分享一下您對公司策略方向的看法，尤其是在行動網路、核心業務以及智慧財產權方面，我想這些與您的日常業務大相徑庭，您的日常業務大概是專注於獲得人工智慧和雲端合約。這是我的第一個問題，我還有一個後續問題。謝謝。

Sure. So Didier, look, I think probably nothing I haven't shared in my comments. I think we have two businesses, Network Infrastructure and Mobile businesses in the portfolio. I mean, obviously, if you look at the comps, there's four major providers of mobile infrastructure. They all have three things. They have core networks. They have radio networks, which was what we call MN, and they have IP licensing, which is what we call tech.

當然。所以迪迪埃，你看，我想可能沒什麼是我在評論裡沒說的。我認為我們的投資組合中包含兩項業務：網路基礎設施業務和行動業務。我的意思是，很明顯，如果你看看競爭對手，你會發現行動基礎設施領域有四大主要供應商。它們都具備三樣東西。它們擁有核心網路。他們擁有無線電網路（我們稱之為MN），他們擁有IP許可（我們稱之為技術）。

So I think we've got a pretty clear -- it's pretty clear you need the full portfolio. If you look at the players that have not had the full portfolio, they've all struggled to innovate or sustain a foothold. And so I think that's for me number one.

所以我覺得我們已經很清楚了——很明顯你需要完整的投資組合。如果你看看那些沒有擁有完整產品組合的玩家，你會發現他們都很難進行創新或站穩腳跟。所以我覺得這對我來說是最重要的。

In terms of the difference, look, as I've said before, I think connectivity is going to be an area where performant, reliable and trusted providers are going to be very valuable. And the reality is we have a portfolio that plays across all of those core elements of connectivity.

至於區別，正如我之前所說，我認為在連接性方面，性能卓越、可靠且值得信賴的供應商將非常有價值。而現實情況是，我們的產品組合涵蓋了所有這些連接的核心要素。

What we're seeing today with AI, and I think the thing that -- candidly, we weren't capturing as historical Nokia prior to the Infinera acquisition as much as we could have was the fact that in our Optical and IP businesses, the market -- the technology investment or the technology leadership had shifted to cloud and now AI and cloud. So now we're starting to capture some of that. Like I said, I'm pleased with the progress there. And I think that same -- I think you're going to see those same trends happen and roll into Mobile over time because ultimately, if you think about some of the compelling uses of AI, autonomous vehicles, robotics, smart glasses, virtual reality, augmented reality, they all need mobile connectivity, and I think that will be favorable.

我們今天看到的 AI 的發展，坦白說，我認為在收購 Infinera 之前，我們沒有充分認識到諾基亞的歷史，那就是在我們的光纖和 IP 業務中，市場——技術投資或技術領先地位已經轉移到雲，現在是 AI 和雲端。所以現在我們開始捕捉到其中的一些內容了。正如我所說，我對那裡的進展感到滿意。我認為同樣的趨勢也會在行動領域出現，並隨著時間的推移而蔓延開來，因為歸根結底，想想人工智慧、自動駕駛汽車、機器人、智慧眼鏡、虛擬實境、擴增實境等一些引人注目的應用，它們都需要移動連接，我認為這將是一件好事。

But I don't know if the answer I think -- I don't think the answer is going to be doing the same thing we've always done. I think we have to continue to innovate. And that's why I like what we've done in Cloud and Network Services with setting up autonomous cloud-native core stack, and I think there's more opportunity for us ahead in Mobile Networks. Again, it's going to require the things I talked about: focus, collaboration and co-innovation with customers, and an emphasis on best-of-breed technology and strong partnerships.

但我不知道答案是否是——我認為答案不會是繼續做我們一直以來都在做的事情。我認為我們必須繼續創新。這就是為什麼我喜歡我們在雲端和網路服務領域建立自主雲原生核心堆疊所取得的成就，而且我認為我們在行動網路領域還有更多發展機會。再次強調，這需要我之前提到的那些要素：專注、與客戶合作和共同創新，以及重視一流的技術和強大的合作關係。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Didier?

迪迪埃，你還有後續跟進嗎？

Yeah, completely unrelated on the Nokia Technology side. So I mean, Nokia sold their phone business to Microsoft, what, 10 years ago or so. So I just wondered how is the innovation pipeline in the IPR business for the nonstandard essential patents? Is there a risk of a cliff at some point as you're not in the phone business? Or are you confident that you can continue to monetize the SEPs and non-SEPs at least at the current level?

是的，這和諾基亞技術方面完全無關。我的意思是，諾基亞大約在10年前將手機業務賣給微軟了。所以我想知道，在智慧財產權領域，非標準必要專利的創新管道發展如何？由於你並非從事電話業，是否有未來遭遇斷崖式下跌的風險？或者您有信心至少能繼續以目前的水平將SEP和非SEP貨幣化？

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think this is a good question. So just back to the comment I just made, again, every player of scale in mobile infrastructure has a strong IP business, what we call tech. With the changes -- I didn't touch on this in my earlier comments, but with the changes we made in the CTO office, we've also now really tightly aligned the standards team into tech. But we see -- one, we see very good, stable revenue in the business.

是的，絕對的。我覺得這是一個很好的問題。所以回到我剛才的評論，再說一遍，行動基礎設施領域每個有規模的企業都擁有強大的智慧財產權業務，也就是我們所說的技術。隨著這些變化——我在之前的評論中沒有提到這一點——隨著我們在首席技術官辦公室做出的改變，我們現在也真正地將標準團隊與技術部門緊密結合了起來。但我們看到——第一，我們看到公司收入非常良好且穩定。

We are -- we've said already, we're starting to invest in 6G monetization. That's important for us. And we see other -- we also see other emerging revenue streams in other segments. So I think the business is very healthy. The team is doing an excellent job. They're also doing, I think, probably the best job of any of the businesses right now in pushing on operating leverage so that they can continue to deliver the performance they need to. And you'll hear a little more about that in CMD.

正如我們之前所說，我們正在開始投資 6G 商業化。這對我們來說很重要。我們也看到其他領域出現了其他新興的收入來源。所以我認為公司營運狀況非常健康。團隊做得非常出色。我認為，他們目前在提高營運槓桿方面做得可能是所有企業中最好的，這樣他們才能繼續實現所需的績效。在 CMD 中你會聽到更多相關內容。

So that's the last plug I'll make for CMD. But we'll talk about some of that as well there.

這是我最後一次為 CMD 做宣傳了。但我們也會在那裡談到其中的一些內容。

Thanks, Justin, Marco, for the comments. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. I would like to remind you that during the call today, we have made a number of forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may, therefore, differ materially from the results currently expected. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website.

謝謝Justin和Marco的評論。女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。我想提醒各位，在今天的電話會議中，我們做了一些涉及風險和不確定性的前瞻性陳述。因此，實際結果可能與目前預期的結果有重大差異。造成這種差異的因素既包括外部因素，也包括內部營運因素。我們在年度報告（表格 20-F）的「風險因素」部分中列出了此類風險，該報告可在我們的投資者關係網站上查閱。

Thank you for joining us.

感謝您的參與。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議已經結束。感謝各位參加今天的報告會。您現在可以斷開連線了。