諾基亞 (NOK) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

女士們、先生們，早安。

Welcome to Nokia's fourth quarter 2024 results call.

歡迎參加諾基亞 2024 年第四季業績電話會議。

I'm David Mulholland, Head of Nokia Investor Relations.

我是諾基亞投資人關係主管大衛‧穆爾霍蘭德 (David Mulholland)。

And today with me is Pekka Lundmark, our President and CEO along with Marco Wiren, our CFO.

今天和我一起的有我們的總裁兼執行長 Pekka Lundmark 和我們的財務長 Marco Wiren。

Before we get started, a quick disclaimer.

在我們開始之前，先簡單聲明一下。

During this call, we will be making forward-looking statements regarding our future business, proposed transactions and financial performance, and these statements are predictions that involve risks and uncertainties.

在本次電話會議中，我們將就未來業務、擬議交易和財務表現做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述是涉及風險和不確定性的預測。

Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results we currently expect.

因此，實際結果可能與我們目前預期的結果有重大差異。

Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors.

造成這種差異的因素既可能是外部因素，也可能是內部營運因素。

We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our Annual Report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website.

我們已在 20-F 表年度報告的風險因素部分中指明了此類風險，該報告可在我們投資者關係網站上查閱。

Within today's presentation, references to growth rates will mostly be on a constant currency basis and in relation to margins will be based on our comparable reporting.

在今天的演示中，對成長率的引用將主要以固定匯率為基礎，而與利潤率相關的成長率則基於我們的可比較報告。

Please note that our Q4 report and the presentation that accompanies this call are published on our website.

請注意，我們的第四季度報告和本次電話會議的簡報已在我們的網站上發布。

The report includes both reportable and comparable financial results and a reconciliation between the two.

該報告包括可報告和可比較的財務結果以及兩者之間的對帳。

In terms of the agenda for today, Pekka will go through the key messages for the quarter, Marco will go through our financial performance and then Pekka will make a few comments on some particular highlights from the quarter.

就今天的議程而言，佩卡將介紹本季度的關鍵信息，馬可將介紹我們的財務業績，然後佩卡將對本季度的一些特別亮點發表一些評論。

We'll then move on to Q&A.

然後我們進入問答環節。

With that, let me hand over to Pekka.

說完這些，讓我把麥克風交給佩卡。

Thanks, David, and thank you all for joining us today.

謝謝，大衛，也謝謝大家今天加入我們。

I'm pleased to share with you that we finished '24 with a strong quarter.

我很高興地與大家分享我們24年季度的強勁表現。

The improved order trends we have talked about in recent quarters were now clearly visible also in our net sales with 9% growth in the fourth quarter.

我們最近幾季談到的訂單趨勢改善現在在我們的淨銷售額中也清晰可見，第四季成長了 9%。

Network Infrastructure grew 17% in Q4 with all units growing and with IP Networks, the standout performer, growing 24%.

網路基礎設施在第四季度增長了 17%，所有部門均實現增長，其中表現最為突出的 IP 網路增長了 24%。

We also had a very strong performance in Nokia Technologies with several new deals signed, increasing our net sale run rate to now approximately between EUR1.3 billion to EUR1.4 billion.

我們在諾基亞科技公司的表現也很強勁，簽署了幾項新交易，使我們的淨銷售額運行率增加到現在的約 13 億歐元至 14 億歐元之間。

Cloud and Network Services also grew 7%, despite a 4 percentage point headwind from a prior disposal.

儘管受先前的處置影響，雲端運算和網路服務業務遭受了 4 個百分點的不利影響，但其營收也增加了 7%。

Mobile Networks saw its sales trend stabilize as the more challenging comparisons in India are now behind us and we saw stronger demand in Q4 in North America.

由於印度市場更具挑戰性的競爭已經過去，並且我們看到第四季度北美市場的需求更加強勁，行動網路的銷售趨勢趨於穩定。

The strong Q4 sales and high contribution from Nokia Technologies led to a comparable gross margin of 47.2% in the quarter and an operating margin of 19.1%.

第四季強勁的銷售業績和諾基亞技術的高貢獻使得本季可比毛利率達到 47.2%，營業利潤率達到 19.1%。

This is the highest quarterly operating margin we have seen at Nokia since 2015.

這是自 2015 年以來諾基亞最高的季度營業利潤率。

We also had a strong year for cash generation with a free cash flow of EUR2 billion.

今年我們的現金創造能力也十分強勁，自由現金流達到 20 億歐元。

Our year-end net cash balance was EUR4.9 billion, even after returning EUR1.4 billion to shareholders during the year, through both share buybacks and dividends.

即使我們透過股票回購和股利向股東返還了 14 億歐元，但我們年末的淨現金餘額仍為 49 億歐元。

I will come back to this topic, but with the momentum we are seeing in the data center space, we are accelerating investments into our IP Networks business, and I'm really excited about this opportunity.

我會回到這個主題，但隨著我們在資料中心領域看到的勢頭，我們正在加快對 IP 網路業務的投資，我對這個機會感到非常興奮。

We will discuss our outlook a bit later, but I'm pleased to say that the improved trends from the second half of '24 are expected to sustain into '25.

我們稍後會討論我們的展望，但我很高興地說，24年下半年的改善趨勢預計將持續到25年。

With that, let me hand over to Marco to go through the financials in a bit more detail.

說完這些，讓我把時間交給馬可 (Marco)，讓他更詳細地介紹一下財務狀況。

Thanks, Pekka, and hello from my side as well.

謝謝，佩卡，我也向你問好。

I will start by discussing our overall group performance.

我將首先討論一下我們團隊的整體表現。

As Pekka mentioned, we were very pleased to see the strong end to 2024.

正如佩卡所說，我們很高興看到 2024 年的強勁收官。

The fourth quarter saw net sales growth of 9%, gross margin increased by 250 basis points to 47.2%, and this was due to the increased contribution from Nokia Technologies and improvements in other business groups.

第四季淨銷售額成長 9%，毛利率增加 250 個基點至 47.2%，這得益於諾基亞技術公司的貢獻增加以及其他業務集團的改善。

Our quarter four operating margin expanded 380 basis points year-on-year to 19.1%.

我們第四季的營業利潤率年增了 380 個基點，達到 19.1%。

I will now look at the performance of our business groups, starting with Network Infrastructure.

我現在將介紹我們業務集團的業績，從網路基礎設施開始。

We saw a strong finish to '24 with all units growing in quarter four.

我們看到 2024 年業績表現強勁，第四季度所有部門均實現成長。

IP Networks had a very strong quarter with 24% growth.

IP 網路本季表現非常強勁，成長了 24%。

Fixed Networks grew 16% and Optical 7%.

固定網路成長 16%，光纖網路成長 7%。

And this growth was mainly driven by improvement trends among CSP customers and regionally, in North America and India.

這一成長主要得益於 CSP 客戶以及北美和印度地區的改善趨勢。

Gross margin expanded 70 basis points to 45.4%, and this was mainly driven by beneficial product mix.

毛利率擴大70個基點至45.4％，這主要得益於有利的產品組合。

The operating margin was very strong at 19.6% in the quarter as we also continued our prudent cost management.

由於我們持續實施審慎的成本管理，本季的營業利潤率非常強勁，達到 19.6%。

And in Mobile Networks, net sales declined by 2% in the quarter.

在行動網路業務方面，本季淨銷售額下降了 2%。

After some very challenging quarters, we are now seeing net sales trends to start to stabilize.

在經歷了幾個極具挑戰性的季度之後，我們現在看到淨銷售趨勢開始穩定下來。

Pleasingly, North America net sales increased by double digit, while India net sales stabilized.

令人高興的是，北美淨銷售額實現了兩位數成長，而印度淨銷售額則保持穩定。

Gross margin declined slightly by 20 basis points, but remains at robust 38.1%.

毛利率略有下降20個基點，但仍維持在強勁的38.1%。

And operating margin was 7.7%, a decrease of 380 basis points versus the prior year as underlying cost reductions were offset by higher variable pay accruals.

營業利益率為 7.7%，比上年下降 380 個基點，因為基礎成本的減少被更高的浮動薪酬應計額所抵消。

Cloud and Network Services net sales grew by 7% in the quarter, with strong growth in North America.

本季雲端和網路服務淨銷售額成長 7%，其中北美成長強勁。

And this was despite a negative impact of approximately 4 percentage points related to a divestment earlier in 2024.

儘管 2024 年初的撤資產生了約 4 個百分點的負面影響，但情況仍然如此。

Growth was mainly driven by core networks and Enterprise Campus Edge.

成長主要受到核心網路和企業園區邊緣的推動。

Gross margin was strong, as was operating margin, which came in at 22.4% for the quarter with profit weighted towards quarter four, as is typical seasonality for this business.

毛利率強勁，營業利潤率亦是如此，本季達到 22.4%，利潤主要集中在第四季度，這是該業務的典型季節性。

And before moving to Nokia Technologies, I also wanted to bring to your attention the fact that we have now moved our managed service business from Cloud and Network Services to Mobile Networks as of January 1, 2025.

在轉到諾基亞科技公司之前，我還想提請大家注意一個事實，即自 2025 年 1 月 1 日起，我們已將託管服務業務從雲端和網路服務轉移到行動網路。

The managed services business provides outsourced network management of multi-vendor RAN networks for operators.

託管服務業務為營運商提供多供應商RAN網路的外包網路管理。

And considering CNS is increasingly transitioning towards cloud-native software sales as a service product offerings and helping customers to monetize networks through APIs, we believe this business is more aligned and fits better with Mobile Networks.

考慮到 CNS 正日益轉向以雲端原生軟體銷售為服務產品，並幫助客戶透過 API 實現網路獲利，我們相信這項業務與行動網路更加一致、更加契合。

And based on 2024 results, this change is expected to lead to transfer of about EUR430 million of net sales and approximately EUR40 million of operating profit from CNS to Mobile Networks.

而根據2024年的業績，這項變更預計將導致約4.3億歐元的淨銷售額和約4,000萬歐元的營業利潤從CNS轉移到行動網路。

And we will provide recast financial information for 2024 reflecting this change prior to our quarter one financial results.

我們將在第一季財務業績公佈之前提供反映此變更的 2024 年重述財務資訊。

Turning now to Nokia Technologies.

現在來談談諾基亞技術。

Net sales grew by an impressive 85% in quarter four, and this was due to a combination of the increased annual net sales run rate from new deals signed in both quarter four and earlier this year or 2024, along with some catch-up payments related to deals signed in the quarter.

第四季淨銷售額成長了85%，這得益於第四季和今年稍早或2024 年簽訂的新交易帶來的年度淨銷售額運行率上升，以及一些與銷售相關的補繳款項。

Agreements that were signed included Transsion and is a previously unlicensed mobile device vendor and then multimedia-related agreements with HP and Samsung and other smaller deals as well.

簽署的協議包括與傳音集團（先前未經授權的行動裝置供應商）簽署的協議，以及與惠普和三星簽署的多媒體相關協議以及其他一些較小的交易。

Nokia Technologies' annual net sales run rate has been gradually increasing in the recent quarters to approximately EUR1.3 billion to EUR1.4 billion, and this shows a good progress on the journey to achieve our midterm target of EUR1.4 billion to EUR1.5 billion.

諾基亞科技公司的年淨銷售額運行率最近幾季逐步上升至約 13 億歐元至 14 億歐元，這表明我們在實現 14 億歐元至 15 億歐元的中期目標的道路上取得了良好的進展。 50億。

Let's now look at the net sales by region.

現在我們來看看各地區的淨銷售額。

The biggest contributors to the net sales growth were North America and India.

淨銷售額成長的最大貢獻者是北美和印度。

In North America, we saw a meaningful improvement in demand from telecom operators, supporting all of our businesses.

在北美，我們看到電信業者的需求顯著改善，為我們的所有業務提供了支援。

The growth in India was mainly driven by Network Infrastructure and especially by Fixed Networks will be benefited from strong fixed wireless access demand.

印度的成長主要受網路基礎設施推動，尤其是固定網路將受益於強勁的固定無線存取需求。

And in Europe, we saw a resilient market performance, but the growth in the region mainly relates to Nokia Technologies' performance.

在歐洲，我們看到了強勁的市場表現，但該地區的成長主要與諾基亞技術的表現有關。

And elsewhere, most markets were relatively stable in the fourth quarter, although the competitive environment remains challenging in Latin America.

而其他地區，大多數市場在第四季相對穩定，儘管拉丁美洲的競爭環境仍然充滿挑戰。

2024 has ended as a strong year for cash generation.

2024 年已成為現金創造強勁的一年。

On the whole, it played out as we expected in many respects, but we performed a bit better on each metric.

整體而言，很多方面都符合我們的預期，但我們在每個指標上的表現都略好一些。

Our prudent cost management also helped us to manage our CapEx requirements in the business this year, and we put significant focus on improving our working capital position, which yielded good results, and this was one of the big drivers of our strong cash performance.

我們審慎的成本管理也幫助我們管理了今年業務中的資本支出需求，我們非常重視改善營運資本狀況，這取得了良好的效果，這是我們強勁現金表現的主要驅動力之一。

And we ended the quarter with a net cash position of EUR4.9 billion, which means that we start 2025 with a strong balance sheet and will remain in a good position, even considering the impact of the Infinera acquisition.

本季末，我們的淨現金狀況為 49 億歐元，這意味著我們在 2025 年開始時擁有強勁的資產負債表，並且即使考慮到 Infinera 收購的影響，仍將保持良好地位。

And looking at our cash performance since 2020, we have much stronger track record of cash generation.

從 2020 年以來的現金表現來看，我們的現金創造記錄強勁得多。

Looking forward, we forecast free cash flow conversion of between 50% and 80% in 2025.

展望未來，我們預測 2025 年自由現金流轉換率將在 50% 至 80% 之間。

And during 2024, we returned EUR1.4 billion to shareholders in total.

2024年，我們向股東共返還了14億歐元。

EUR710 million was returned through dividends and EUR680 million via buybacks.

其中7.1億歐元透過股息返還，6.8億歐元透過回購返還。

And you will recall that during '24, we accelerated the two-year EUR600 million buyback program and had completed it already within one year.

您可能還記得，在 24 年期間，我們加快了為期兩年的 6 億歐元回購計劃，並且已經在一年內完成。

In November, we then announced and started a new buyback program to offset the dilutive effect of the Infinera acquisition, and this program is still ongoing.

11 月，我們宣布並啟動了一項新的回購計劃，以抵消收購 Infinera 的稀釋效應，該計劃目前仍在進行中。

Given our cash performance in the year, we are pleased to announce that the Board of Directors is proposing a dividend authorization of EUR0.14 per share in respect of financial year 2024.

鑑於我們今年的現金表現，我們很高興地宣布，董事會提議授權 2024 財年每股股息 0.14 歐元。

And this is a EUR0.01 increase from the EUR0.13 the year before.

這比前一年 0.13 歐元增加了 0.01 歐元。

And with that, let me hand over to Pekka to go through some of the business highlights.

現在，請容許我把時間交給佩卡來介紹一些商業亮點。

Thank you, Marco.

謝謝你，馬可。

So along with our solid financial performance in '24, we took some important steps to ensure Nokia is the right foundation for future success.

因此，除了 24 年穩健的財務表現外，我們還採取了一些重要措施，確保諾基亞為未來的成功奠定良好的基礎。

Most notable were the actions we took in active managing -- or actively managing our portfolio.

最值得注意的是我們在積極管理或積極管理我們的投資組合方面採取的行動。

You will recall that earlier this year, we announced the divestment of our Submarine Networks business, which then closed at the end of 2024.

您可能還記得，今年早些時候，我們宣布剝離海底網路業務，並於 2024 年底關閉。

We also sold our device management and service management in CNS to Lumine Group.

我們也將 CNS 的設備管理和服務管理出售給了 Lumine Group。

From an acquisition standpoint, there were three important deals this year, all of which strengthened our position in markets where we see significant future growth potential.

從收購的角度來看，今年有三筆重要交易，這些交易都加強了我們在未來具有巨大成長潛力的市場中的地位。

We announced our intention to acquire Infinera, which will both strengthen our position in optical networking and accelerate our growth opportunities in the data center market.

我們宣布了收購 Infinera 的意向，這將加強我們在光網路領域的地位，並加速我們在資料中心市場的成長機會。

We've been making good progress with the required approvals.

我們在獲取所需批准方面取得了良好的進展。

You may have seen that we filed with the EU last week.

您可能已經看到，我們上週已向歐盟提交了文件。

Assuming we achieved targeted timelines, we now expect the deal to close already during the first quarter of 2025.

假設我們實現了目標時間表，我們現在預計該交易將在 2025 年第一季完成。

And internally, we are well prepared to move quickly on integration once the deal formally closes.

而在內部，一旦交易正式完成，我們已經做好了迅速進行整合的準備。

We also acquired Fenix in order to strengthen our position in the defense industry, adding their innovative broadband tactical communications products.

我們還收購了 Fenix，以加強我們在國防工業中的地位，並增加其創新的寬頻戰術通訊產品。

The acquisition closed in May 2024, and we have moved quickly to accelerate product roadmaps, even now launching a 5G tactical radio solution in the fourth quarter.

此次收購於 2024 年 5 月完成，我們迅速採取行動加速產品路線圖，甚至在第四季度推出了 5G 戰術無線電解決方案。

This is a longer-term opportunity, of course, but we are progressing well.

當然，這是一個長期的機會，但我們正在進展順利。

In November, we announced that we had acquired Rapid technology and R&D units.

11月，我們宣布收購Rapid技術和研發部門。

This acquisition gives us the world's largest API hub used by thousands of developers globally, along with strengthening our R&D capabilities.

此次收購使我們擁有了全球最大的 API 中心，供全球數千名開發人員使用，同時增強了我們的研發能力。

Another of our strategic objectives has been to diversify our business and accelerate our growth outside of our traditional service provider markets.

我們的另一個策略目標是實現業務多元化，並加速我們在傳統服務提供者市場之外的成長。

As we have highlighted before, this includes a number of different growth areas for Nokia, and we intend to frame this better for you at our Capital Markets Day later this year.

正如我們之前所強調的那樣，這包括諾基亞的許多不同成長領域，我們打算在今年稍後的資本市場日上為您更好地闡述這一點。

2024 was a more challenging year for our enterprise sales and we ended with a 4% decline in constant currency.

2024 年對於我們的企業銷售來說是更具挑戰性的一年，以固定匯率計算，我們的銷售額最終下降了 4%。

This was partly due to lumpiness that we see in some of the Webscale deals after strong growth in '22 and '23, but also the broader weakness in enterprise demand that has been visible among many of our peers.

這在一定程度上是由於我們在 2022 年和 2023 年強勁增長之後看到的一些 Webscale 交易的波動，但也是由於我們的許多同行都出現了企業需求普遍疲軟的情況。

Since 2017, we have sustained a 10% CAGR in enterprise.

自2017年以來，我們的企業一直保持10%的複合年增長率。

And while the sales trend was more challenging in '24, we took a number of steps that I believe will keep us on a double-digit growth trajectory in the years to come, including 2025.

儘管24年的銷售趨勢更具挑戰性，但我們採取了一些措施，我相信這些措施將使我們在未來幾年（包括2025年）保持兩位數的成長軌跡。

This is supported by the significant order intake we saw in Enterprise Campus Edge in Q4.

我們在第四季的企業園區邊緣看到的大量訂單量證實了這一點。

We won a number of key deals, for example, in IP networks with Microsoft and Nscale.

我們贏得了許多重要交易，例如與微軟和 Nscale 的 IP 網路合作交易。

We also continue to expand our go-to-market partnerships.

我們也將繼續擴大我們的市場合作夥伴關係。

In Q4, we announced partnerships with Kyndryl and Lenovo that will increase our reach into the data center market.

在第四季度，我們宣布與 Kyndryl 和聯想建立合作夥伴關係，這將擴大我們在資料中心市場的影響力。

With these foundations and the Infinera acquisition, we will have a strong base for which to sustain growth in these markets going forward.

憑藉這些基礎和對 Infinera 的收購，我們將擁有強大的基礎來維持未來在這些市場的成長。

Considering our momentum, let me now touch upon some decisions we have made regarding the potential we see in the future.

考慮到我們的發展勢頭，現在讓我談談我們針對未來潛力所做的一些決定。

We decided in Q4 that we will accelerate our investment in our IP Networks business.

我們在第四季度決定加快對 IP 網路業務的投資。

We will invest up to an additional EUR100 million of annual operating expenses, with a view to generating incremental net sales of EUR1 billion by 2028.

我們將每年額外投資高達 1 億歐元的營運費用，以期到 2028 年實現 10 億歐元的增量淨銷售額。

Nokia's IP Networks products are well known in the CSP market for their quality, robustness and innovation.

諾基亞的 IP 網路產品因其品質、穩健性和創新性在 CSP 市場上享有盛譽。

We will look to bring this strong and proven reputation for quality to the data center market and combine it with new market-leading automation capabilities from our event-driven automation solutions and our SR Linux operating system.

我們希望將這一強大且經過驗證的品質聲譽帶入資料中心市場，並將其與我們事件驅動的自動化解決方案和 SR Linux 作業系統的全新市場領先自動化功能相結合。

A notable example of this is the agreement with Microsoft.

一個顯著的例子就是與微軟達成的協議。

After three years of working with them on SONiC, we are now increasingly being deployed across Microsoft data centers, and the deal we announced in Q4 will see us deployed in over 30 countries globally.

在 SONiC 與微軟合作三年之後，我們現在越來越多地部署在微軟資料中心，我們在第四季度宣布的交易將使我們在全球 30 多個國家/地區部署。

Given the encouraging response to our products, we are doubling down on our investment in this technology in order to be able to address the hyperscaler, telco cloud and enterprise customer segments.

鑑於我們的產品獲得了令人鼓舞的反響，我們正在加倍對這項技術的投資，以便能夠滿足超大規模、電信雲和企業客戶群的需求。

These investments will bolster our R&D to broaden our product offering to meet customer requirements.

這些投資將加強我們的研發，擴大我們的產品範圍，並滿足客戶的需求。

They will also further accelerate our go-to-market and channel expansion.

他們也將進一步加速我們的行銷和通路擴張。

I'm really excited about this significant organic value creation opportunity for Nokia.

我對諾基亞的這個重大的有機價值創造機會感到非常興奮。

And this will, of course, be complemented by the connections that Infinera has in Webscale.

當然，這將透過 Infinera 在 Webscale 中的聯繫得到補充。

Then, if I touch on Mobile Networks.

然後，如果我談到行動網路。

We explained to you all at the end of 2023 the actions we are taking to renew our Mobile Network strategy, both in terms of commercial actions and cost management.

我們在 2023 年底向大家解釋了我們為更新行動網路策略所採取的行動，包括商業行動和成本管理方面。

I spoke to you last quarter about how quickly we have moved on the cost piece, and you're already seeing some of the benefits of that in our second half performance.

上個季度我與您談到了我們在成本方面取得的進展，您已經在我們下半年的表現中看到了一些好處。

From a commercial perspective, we have had a highly successful year in terms of deal traction, while maintaining our commercial and pricing discipline.

從商業角度來看，我們在交易方面取得了巨大的成功，同時保持了商業和定價紀律。

Since the start of 2024, we have won 18,000 new base station sites on a net basis, including 12 wins with completely new RAN customers.

自 2024 年初以來，我們已淨贏得 18,000 個新基地台站點，其中包括 12 個全新的 RAN 客戶站點。

We also expanded our RAN share with 10 customers, and this success has been across all regions globally.

我們的 RAN 份額也擴大到 10 個客戶，而這項成功已遍及全球所有地區。

Now, clearly, we did not win every deal, but this 18,000 sites is already considering the few instances where there has been increased competition, especially from Chinese vendors.

現在，很明顯，我們並沒有贏得每筆交易，但這 18,000 個站點已經考慮到競爭加劇的少數情況，尤其是來自中國供應商的競爭。

We have seen good deal momentum in Cloud and Network Services, which we believe will continue into 2025.

我們看到雲端和網路服務領域的交易勢頭良好，我們相信這種勢頭將持續到 2025 年。

We now have 117 customers for our 5G standalone core, although not all have deployed yet.

目前，我們的 5G 獨立核心已有 117 位客戶，但並非所有客戶都已部署。

Currently, it is a reality that only 20% to 25% of CSPs have deployed 5G standalone core.

目前，現實情況是只有20%至25%的CSP部署了5G獨立核心。

According to the GSMA, approximately 60 operators have already deployed standalone core, and we are supplying to about 45 of them.

根據 GSMA 統計，大約有 60 家業者已經部署了獨立核心，我們為其中約 45 家業者提供網路。

Many operators will, of course, have multiple suppliers, but this still shows how strong our position is in this market and how strong the traction we have in 5G core.

當然，許多營運商都會有多家供應商，但這仍然顯示了我們在這個市場上的地位有多強，以及我們在 5G 核心方面的吸引力有多大。

One key growth opportunity for CNS is in private wireless.

CNS 的關鍵成長機會是私人無線。

We now have over 850 private wireless customers, up from 710 a year ago, and these are covering a range of industries from energy and transport to public sector and manufacturing.

我們現在擁有超過 850 個私人無線客戶，比一年前增加了 710 個，這些客戶涵蓋了從能源和交通到公共部門和製造業等多個行業。

One other focus area is helping operators to monetize their networks with our network as code initiative.

另一個重點領域是利用我們的網路即代碼計畫來幫助營運商實現網路獲利。

We are now up to 48 network KPI partners, which includes 24 operators and a further 24 enterprise and ecosystem partners such as Google and Infobip.

目前，我們的網路KPI合作夥伴已達48家，其中包括24家營運商，以及Google、Infobip等24家企業及生態系統合作夥伴。

As mentioned in the fourth quarter, we also acquired Rapid technology assets and R&D team.

如同第四季所提到的，我們也收購了Rapid的技術資產和研發團隊。

This will bolster our R&D capacity network as code and gives us one of the largest API hubs in the world.

這將增強我們的研發能力網路程式碼，並使我們成為世界上最大的 API 中心之一。

Taken together with our autonomous network application suite, we are enabling operators to fully automate and monetize their networks.

結合我們的自主網路應用程式套件，我們可以幫助營運商完全實現網路自動化和獲利。

Our progress here has also been acknowledged with both ABI and Analysis Mason recognizing Nokia as one of the clear market leaders in this field.

我們在這方面取得的進展也得到了 ABI 和 Analysis Mason 的認可，他們認為諾基亞是該領域明顯的市場領導者之一。

Before turning to our full year outlook, I wanted to provide some color on how we see the market dynamics for each of our business groups as we enter 2025.

在談到全年展望之前，我想先介紹我們如何看待 2025 年到來之際各個業務集團的市場動態。

Starting with Network Infrastructure, we expect the improving market trends that we saw in the second half to continue in 2025.

從網路基礎設施開始，我們預計下半年看到的市場改善趨勢將在 2025 年持續。

Ultimately, we see this driving strong growth for Network Infrastructure, with supportive trends across each of the businesses.

最終，我們看到這將推動網路基礎設施的強勁成長，並且每個業務都呈現出支援趨勢。

Then, on Mobile Networks, we saw some stabilization in market demand towards the end of '24, and we believe we could see some recovery in spending as we progress through '25.

然後，在行動網路方面，我們看到市場需求在24年底有所穩定，我們相信，隨著25年的到來，我們會看到支出有所復甦。

Let me remind you that we will face a bit of a headwind this year in North America from a customer decision made in 2023.

我要提醒你的是，由於客戶在 2023 年做出的決定，我們今年在北美將面臨一些阻力。

We estimate this be an approximately 4 percentage point headwind to the business this year.

我們估計這將對今年的業務造成約4個百分點的阻力。

But even considering this, we expect net sales to be largely stable for Mobile Networks this year, meaning, of course, that the rest of all our customers will compensate for that 4 percentage point drop with that one customer.

但即使考慮到這一點，我們預計今年行動網路的淨銷售額將基本保持穩定，這當然意味著我們其餘的客戶將彌補該客戶 4 個百分點的降幅。

As I just mentioned, we are also seeing good momentum in Cloud and Network Services as we enter 2025, particularly in core networks and Enterprise Campus Edge.

正如我剛才提到的，進入 2025 年，我們也看到雲端和網路服務的良好發展勢頭，特別是在核心網路和企業園區邊緣。

These trends should drive overall growth in Cloud and Network Services this year.

這些趨勢將推動今年雲端和網路服務的整體成長。

And then finally, on Nokia Technologies, we look to continue making progress towards our midterm run rate target of between EUR1.4 billion to EUR1.5 billion, particularly in our growth areas.

最後，關於諾基亞科技公司，我們希望繼續朝著 14 億歐元至 15 億歐元的中期運行率目標前進，特別是在我們的成長領域。

We are targeting to deliver approximately EUR1.1 billion operating profit for this business in 2025.

我們的目標是到 2025 年為該業務實現約 11 億歐元的營業利潤。

Then, moving to our formal outlook for '25.

然後，我們來談談我們對25年的正式展望。

We expect the comparable operating profit of between EUR1.9 billion and EUR2.4 billion for the full year on an organic basis, excluding the Infinera acquisition.

我們預計，不包括收購 Infinera 的業務，全年有機可比營業利潤將在 19 億歐元至 24 億歐元之間。

If you consider the onetime items that benefited 2024 by over EUR700 million, which were mostly in the first half of the year, this guidance would imply a strong improvement in our comparable operating profit in '25, despite the selected increased investments like the EUR100 million plan into IP.

如果考慮到一次性專案對2024 年帶來的超過7 億歐元的收益（大部分發生在上半年），這一預期將意味著2025 年我們的可比營業利潤將大幅改善，儘管有選擇地增加了投資，如1 億歐元計劃融入IP。

As a reminder, these one-time items include the exceptional catch-up contribution in Q1 '24 in Nokia Technologies, the settlement we had with AT&T in Q2 and then some other provision reversals in Q3.

提醒一下，這些一次性項目包括諾基亞科技公司在 24 年第一季的特殊補繳貢獻、我們在第二季與 AT&T 達成的和解以及第三季的一些其他撥備逆轉。

With respect to free cash flow, we expect to convert 50% to 80% of comparable operating profit into cash.

關於自由現金流，我們預期可比營業利潤的50%到80%將轉化為現金。

So in summary, we are pleased with the strong end to 2024 in terms of profitability and cash.

總而言之，我們對 2024 年獲利能力和現金狀況的強勁成長感到滿意。

In addition, we have made some important strategic steps, which we believe will position us well for growth in the future.

此外，我們也採取了一些重要的策略舉措，我們相信這將為我們未來的成長奠定良好的基礎。

And finally, and most importantly, we are encouraged to see the sales momentum we saw in Q4 continuing to 2025.

最後，最重要的是，我們很高興看到第四季的銷售動能將持續到 2025 年。

So let me now hand over back to David for Q&A.

現在，讓我將問答時間交還給 David。

Thank you, Pekka and Marco, for the presentations.

感謝 Pekka 和 Marco 的演講。

Before we move to the Q&A session, just a quick comment on our plans for investor events this year.

在我們進入問答環節之前，我們先簡單評論一下我們今年的投資者活動計劃。

We are working, as we mentioned last quarter, to confirm dates for the Capital Markets Day.

正如我們上個季度提到的，我們正在努力確認資本市場日的日期。

We will look to confirm this to you as soon as it's possible.

我們將盡快向您確認這一點。

But with that, let's start with the Q&A.

既然如此，我們就從問答環節開始吧。

As usual, for the Q&A session, as a courtesy to others in the queue, could you please limit yourself to one question and a brief follow-up.

像往常一樣，在問答環節，為了尊重隊列中的其他人，請您只提出一個問題並作一個簡短的跟進。

Janet, could you please give the instructions?

珍妮特，你能給說明嗎？

Thank you.

謝謝。

We will now begin the question-and-answer session.

我們現在開始問答環節。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指令）

I will now hand the call back to Mr. David Mulholland.

現在我將把電話交還給大衛·穆赫蘭先生。

Joachim Gunell, DNB.

Joachim Gunell，DNB。

So I know you don't guide on gross margin specifically and you also had some divisional, call it, market dynamics comment here.

所以我知道您沒有具體指導毛利率，而且您也在這裡對一些部門，即所謂的市場動態做出了評論。

But when it comes to the guide for 2025, the deviation versus the consensus appears to be mainly Mobile Networks driven.

但當談到2025年的指南時，與共識的偏差似乎主要是由行動網路驅動的。

So can you just comment a bit here on a group level that you don't guide on sales?

那麼，您能否就您不指導銷售的團體層面發表一些評論？

Does this mean that you still expect fairly low visibility for the full year 2025?

這是否意味著您仍然預計 2025 年全年的能見度會相當低？

And is there anything that you can say with regards to Mobile Networks gross margin for 2025 in relation to the 38% you showed here in Q4?

與您在第四季度顯示的 38% 相比，您能談談 2025 年行動網路毛利率嗎？

That's actually several questions you are asking, so let me try to take that piece by piece.

您實際上問了幾個問題，所以讓我嘗試逐一解答。

So if I take first the visibility question, I would say that as we start '25, our visibility is much better than it was a year ago.

因此，如果我先考慮可見性問題，我想說，當我們開始25年時，我們的可見度比一年前好得多。

Our order backlog has continued to grow through the year, and the CapEx commentary from our customers is now more robust.

我們的訂單積壓量全年持續成長，客戶對我們資本支出的評價現在也更加強勁。

And we are optimistic about our opportunity to grow in addition to CSPs on the enterprise markets, including the data center.

我們對除了 CSP 之外，還包括資料中心在內的企業市場的成長機會充滿信心。

So I would not say that we have lower visibility.

所以我不會說我們的知名度較低。

You are, of course, right that we are not providing the level of explicit net sales assumptions yet that we provided last year for our businesses.

當然，您說得對，我們尚未提供去年為我們的業務提供的明確淨銷售額假設水準。

But we did say, however, that we expect strong growth in NI, we expect the growth in CNS and we expect stable sales in MN, despite a 4 percentage point headwind from AT&T.

但是，我們確實說過，我們預計 NI 將會強勁成長，我們預計 CNS 將會成長，我們預期 MN 的銷售額將會穩定，儘管 AT&T 帶來了 4 個百分點的阻力。

So the reason this is more than that in a dynamic market, which is now seems to be changing to the better, it's very hard to gauge exactly that's what the pace of recovery will be.

因此，原因不僅僅是在一個充滿活力的市場中，現在市場似乎正在朝著好的方向轉變，很難準確判斷復甦的速度。

But the signs we see are clearly encouraging for the topline of '25, and we also need to remember that, of course, we will be adding Infinera after closure.

但我們看到的跡象顯然對 25 年的營收來說是令人鼓舞的，而且我們還需要記住，當然，我們會在關閉後添加 Infinera。

And of course, once Infinera closes, then we will be, for the first time, in a position to comment also their outlook.

當然，一旦 Infinera 完成收購，我們將首次能夠對其前景進行評論。

And then, finally, the Mobile Networks gross margin, they were also here, as you remember, some one-offs that we need to understand in 2024.

最後，行動網路的毛利率也在這裡，正如你所記得的，我們需要在 2024 年了解一些一次性的事情。

So the underlying performance we have had in '24 has been 38% to 39% in Mobile Networks gross margin, excluding those, for example, the AT&T settlement in Q2.

因此，不包括 AT&T 第二季的和解等因素，我們 24 年行動網路毛利率的基本表現為 38% 至 39%。

So looking into '25, the real question will be around the regional dynamics, but I would not make a clear comment either way at this point.

因此展望25年，真正的問題將圍繞區域動態，但目前我不會對此做出明確的評論。

The underlying last year was 38% to 39%, which is pretty much what we saw in Q4.

去年的基本成長率為 38% 至 39%，與我們在第四季看到的情況基本相同。

Simon Leopold, Raymond James.

西蒙李奧波德、雷蒙詹姆斯。

I wanted to see if we could maybe double-click a bit on the trends with the hyperscalers, in particular.

我想看看我們是否可以特別雙擊超大規模的趨勢。

I appreciate the 2028 outlook regarding sort of that EUR1 billion target.

我很欣賞關於 2028 年 10 億歐元目標的展望。

I think what I'm looking for is something a little bit more shorter term and what you're seeing in the next year or year plus in terms of that group of customers.

我認為我所尋找的是一些更短期的東西，以及就該客戶群而言，你將在未來一年或幾年內看到的東西。

And then I've got a quick follow-up.

然後我會快速跟進。

Simon, thank you.

西蒙，謝謝你。

This is, of course, one of the most important questions we are also internally focusing on because hyperscalers and data centers, they are clearly one of the best growth opportunities that we will have.

當然，這也是我們內部關注的最重要的問題之一，因為超大規模和資料中心顯然是我們將擁有的最佳成長機會之一。

And that's why we decided to double down from investment point of view and because we see so big growth opportunities there.

這就是為什麼我們決定從投資的角度加倍投入，因為我們看到那裡有巨大的成長機會。

We have had good deal traction.

我們已取得良好的交易進展。

And I just mentioned two, Microsoft and Nscale, that we both published in Q4.

我剛才提到了兩家公司，微軟和 Nscale，我們都在第四季度發布了它們。

Then Infinera will, of course, add a lot of capabilities for the optical side, both for data center interconnect and then inside the data center also where the servers will be increasingly connected through optical technologies, something that Infinera is particularly strong on.

當然，Infinera 會在光學方面增加許多功能，既用於資料中心互連，也用於資料中心內部，其中伺服器將越來越多地透過光學技術連接，這是 Infinera 尤為擅長的。

Then, looking at the big picture in data centers, of course, the reality is that we are still today -- compared to the dominant players in that industry, we are a fairly small challenger, which means that this is definitely on the opportunity side for us.

然後，從資料中心的整體情況來看，現實情況是，與該行業的主導者相比，我們今天仍然是一個相當小的挑戰者，這意味著這絕對是機會方面對我們來說。

And all you need to do is to, for example, look at the Microsoft and Meta results last night, where both gave CapEx guidance for very strong growth in 2025.

您需要做的就是查看昨晚微軟和 Meta 的業績，兩家公司都給出了 2025 年強勁增長的資本支出指引。

So this market is clearly accelerating.

所以這個市場顯然正在加速發展。

Then, of course, the recent announcements we saw on the new lower-cost platforms, they will most likely increase competition in data centers.

當然，我們最近看到的有關新的低成本平台的公告很可能會加劇資料中心的競爭。

There will be also lower cost alternatives available, which should increase the application possibilities for AI and, consequently, data centers, for example, in an industrial application in edge compute applications for various workloads.

也會有成本更低的替代方案可供選擇，這將增加人工智慧的應用可能性，從而增加資料中心的應用可能性，例如在工業應用中用於各種工作負載的邊緣運算應用。

So overall, we are strongly optimistic when it comes to this market, both for Webscale, for the plants of telcos and enterprises and the additional investment that we are making together with the Infinera acquisition will strengthen our capabilities here.

因此總體而言，我們對這個市場非常樂觀，無論是對 Webscale，還是對電信營運商和企業的工廠，而且我們收購 Infinera 後所做的額外投資都將增強我們在這裡的能力。

This is one area where we will definitely focus on in the upcoming Capital Market Day later this year.

這是我們在今年稍後即將舉行的資本市場日上一定會重點關注的領域。

And that is also the reason, both the pending Infinera situation and the upcoming Capital Market Day, why we are not yet giving more tangible targets for this year or next year.

這也是為什麼我們尚未為今年或明年設定更具體目標的原因，無論是懸而未決的 Infinera 情況還是即將到來的資本市場日。

We just wanted to give you the highlight of that EUR1 billion additional revenue that we are targeting through the EUR100 million additional investment that we are making in IP.

我們只是想向您強調一下，我們計劃透過在 IP 上額外投資 1 億歐元來獲得 10 億歐元的額外收入。

And then as a follow-up, very much related question, is what are your telco customers saying to you about the impact of AI on their business and what that might mean for Nokia?

然後作為後續非常相關的問題是，您的電信客戶對您如何評價人工智慧對他們的業務的影響以及這對諾基亞意味著什麼？

Thanks.

謝謝。

That's another highly relevant question, and there has been some announcements.

這是另一個高度相關的問題，已經有一些公告。

Even I just referred to the T-Mobile announcement, where they are talking about the acceleration of their AI strategy, and we are one of the partners that they are working on together.

我剛才提到了 T-Mobile 的公告，他們正在談論加速其 AI 策略，而我們是他們合作的合作夥伴之一。

Obviously, there are some obvious things.

顯然，有一些顯而易見的事情。

Telcos, customer service and network management and network security and intrusion detection, et cetera, where AI is already now making a big impact.

在電信、客戶服務和網路管理以及網路安全和入侵偵測等領域，人工智慧已經發揮了巨大的影響。

But then the bigger strategic question for telcos going forward is that how they are going to position in terms of other workloads than their traditional own workloads.

但未來電信公司面臨的更大策略問題是，除了傳統的自身工作負載之外，他們將如何定位其他工作負載。

And here, the sweet spot, which also will be, in a way, a battleground between telcos and hyperscalers and enterprise's own cloud is going to be the edge compute market.

而這裡的最佳點，在某種程度上也將成為電信業者、超大規模企業和企業自己的雲端之間的戰場，也就是邊緣運算市場。

And many of the telcos are currently thinking to what extent they should be, in a way, providing workload processing capabilities at the edge of the networks, combining potentially their presence through the base station network and offer edge compute capabilities for enterprise industrial workloads.

許多電信公司目前正在思考他們應該在多大程度上提供網路邊緣的工作負載處理能力，結合他們透過基地台網路的存在，為企業工業工作負載提供邊緣運算能力。

So that edge will be a highly dynamic part of the market going forward.

因此，這項優勢將成為未來市場中高度活躍的一部分。

And there will be many different entrepreneurs that will want to go after that market.

將會有許多不同的企業家想要進入這個市場。

And the good thing for Nokia, obviously, is that we are working with telcos, we are working with hyperscalers, and we are increasingly working also direct with enterprise customers to go after that opportunity.

對於諾基亞來說，顯然的好處是我們正在與電信營運商合作，與超大規模企業合作，我們也越來越多地直接與企業客戶合作以尋求這一機會。

Artem Beletski, SEB.

Artem Beletski，SEB。

Congrats on strong profitability in Q4.

恭喜第四季實現強勁獲利。

I would like to ask about growth trajectory when it comes to NI segment.

我想問一下 NI 領域的成長軌跡。

So could you maybe comment on subsegment level, or basically, IP, optical, fixed?

那麼您能否就子段級別，或者基本上是 IP、光學、固定級別發表評論？

What kind of development you see there for this year?

您認為今年會有什麼樣的發展？

And maybe just when it comes to double-digit growth, what you are talking about, is it -- or sorry, not double-digit, but strong growth, what you are talking about, is it double-digit growth in your books or not?

也許只是說到兩位數的成長，你所說的是──抱歉，不是兩位數，而是強勁的成長，你所說的是帳面上的兩位數成長，還是不是？

Of course, since we did not attach a number to that double -- not double digit, but strong, you are putting words in my mouth now, which I do not want to do, but when we said strong growth, we decided not to put a number, a clear figure on it.

當然，由於我們沒有給這個「雙位數」加上一個數字——不是兩位數，而是強勁，你現在把話強加給我了，我不想這樣做，但當我們說強勁增長時，我們決定不在上面放一個數字，一個清楚的數值。

Of course, 17% growth that we saw in Q4, that would be more than just strong growth.

當然，我們在第四季度看到的 17% 的成長率不僅僅是強勁的成長。

But we are not going to be more specific than that.

但我們不會說得更具體。

We see clearly opportunities in all three segments of NI very much including in optical, which, typically, and we've been talking about this earlier, is the last one to recover.

我們清楚地看到了 NI 所有三個領域中的機遇，包括光學領域，通常，正如我們之前討論過的，光學領域是最後復甦的領域。

You already saw strong recovery in both Fixed and IP.

您已經看到固定和 IP 均出現強勁復甦。

We expect these trends to continue, and then also optical picking up.

我們預計這些趨勢將會持續下去，光學趨勢也將回升。

And then, of course, once Infinera closes, that will then boost our optical capabilities a lot.

當然，一旦 Infinera 關閉，我們的光學能力就會大大增強。

So yes, market trends to continue that we are now seeing into '25, expect strong growth further boosted by optical.

所以是的，我們現在看到的市場趨勢將持續到25年，預計光學將進一步推動強勁成長。

But we are not, at this stage, going to put a clear figure on this.

但現階段我們還不會對此給予明確的數字。

Do you have a quick follow-up, Artem?

您有什麼後續問題嗎，Artem？

Yes, I do.

是的，我願意。

That is actually relating to the Technologies segment.

這實際上與技術部分有關。

And could you maybe a bit more talk about multimedia space?

能否再多談談多媒體空間？

And so now you have done two deals in the quarter.

現在您在本季已經完成了兩筆交易。

How meaningful opportunity do you see on that front?

您認為這方面有哪些有意義的機會？

And just challenging you that you have only EUR100 million lacking to reach midterm target, isn't the opportunity bigger when it comes to new growth areas, what you're addressing right now?

我剛剛問您，您只差 1 億歐元就能達到中期目標，那麼，在新的成長領域，也就是您現在要解決的問題上，機會不是更大嗎？

And we definitely see opportunities in the new growth areas, as we call them, including automotive, IoT, multimedia and, as we said, specifically also video streaming side.

我們確實看到了新成長領域的機遇，包括汽車、物聯網、多媒體，特別是視訊串流方面。

And already in 2022, we had two video streaming contracts that we announced.

早在 2022 年，我們就宣布了兩項視訊串流合約。

And then also in quarter four, we had on the video device side, we had HP and Samsung.

在第四季度，我們在視訊設備方面有惠普和三星。

So automotive also has been tracking extremely well, and we see good opportunities in these new growth areas.

汽車產業的發展也一直非常好，我們在這些新的成長領域看到了良好的機會。

And we haven't updated, but since -- last time we updated was December '23.

我們還沒有更新，但自從——我們上次更新是在 12 月 23 日。

And then we said that these new growth areas, topline of sales was about EUR150 million for the previous 12 months period.

然後我們說，這些新的成長領域，過去 12 個月的銷售額約為 1.5 億歐元。

And we will provide you an updated figure for all these segments later this year as well.

今年晚些時候，我們還將為您提供所有這些細分市場的最新數據。

And specifically in the Capital Markets Day, we'll give much more information about this.

具體來說，在資本市場日，我們將提供更多有關此方面的資訊。

But we believe that we are continuing to make very good progress here.

但我們相信，我們正在繼續取得非常好的進展。

And we also see that there's plenty of untapped opportunities.

我們也看到，還有許多尚未開發的機會。

Maybe just to add one thing, Artem, to what Marco said, and we need to remember that the definition of the run rate when we are communicating is really that, that is, in a way, the annualized value of the contract base that we currently have.

Artem，也許我只想補充一點，Marco 說過的話，我們需要記住，當我們溝通時，運行率的定義實際上是，在某種程度上，是我們合約基數的年化價值。

And what we then always typically have is then some catch-up payments in new deals, which then explain the difference between the realized sales in any given year and the run rate that we've been communicating.

然後，我們通常會在新交易中進行一些補付款，這可以解釋任何一年的實際銷售與我們一直傳達的運行率之間的差異。

And of course, '24 was exceptional from this point of view because of the more than EUR400 million catch-ups that we had in Q1.

當然，從這個角度來看，2024 年是一個特殊的年份，因為我們在第一季追補了超過 4 億歐元。

And as we did say, there were some catch-ups also in Q4, which explains the difference between Q4 and then the run rate that we are talking about.

正如我們所說的，第四季度也出現了一些追趕現象，這解釋了第四季度與我們正在談論的運行率之間的差異。

And of course, there could be catch-up payments also in the future.

當然，未來還可能會有補繳款項。

But we feel that it's important to communicate in the way the contract base value that we currently have at hand.

但我們認為，以這種方式傳達我們目前掌握的合約基礎價值非常重要。

Sami Sarkamies, Danske Bank.

丹麥銀行的薩米·薩卡米斯（Sami Sarkamies）。

I wanted to revisit your data center growth plans and expectations related to that area.

我想重新審視您與該領域相關的資料中心成長計劃和期望。

Do I understand it right that you're planning to grow operating expenses by EUR300 million over a three-year period and you expect this to translate into an additional EUR1 billion of annual sales?

我是否理解正確：您計劃在三年內增加 3 億歐元的營運費用，並預計這將轉化為每年額外的 10 億歐元的銷售額？

Can you also perhaps elaborate a bit on the split between R&D and go-to-market investments?

您能否詳細闡述研發和市場投資之間的差異？

And what is roughly the starting position for your data center sales today, including Infinera?

目前，包括 Infinera 在內的資料中心銷售的起點大概是多少？

We have not yet put a figure on our existing data center sales.

我們尚未公佈現有資料中心的銷售數字。

These are going to be Capital Market Day comments.

這些將是資本市場日的評論。

The reason we are waiting with that is that we want to get the Infinera closed because that's going to be such a fundamental important piece of all of this.

我們等待的原因是，我們想關閉 Infinera，因為這對這一切來說都是至關重要的部分。

There has been growth in data centers.

數據中心一直在成長。

We have a very interesting starting position, but the reality is that in the big scheme of things compared to the giants that sell billions and billions to this market, we are still a small player.

我們的起步很有意思，但實際情況是，從大局來看，與向這個市場銷售數十億美元的巨頭相比，我們仍然是一個小參與者。

Yes, the EUR100 million, it will gradually ramp during this year, and we expect to reach that EUR100 million run rate towards the end of the year and then keep it there.

是的，1 億歐元，它將在今年內逐步增加，我們預計在年底達到 1 億歐元的運行率，然後保持這個水準。

So roughly speaking, the numbers that you quoted are in the right ballpark.

所以粗略地講，您引用的數字是大致正確的。

And absolutely, yes, this additional investment is targeted to deliver additional EUR1 billion of sales in the year 2028.

絕對是的，這項額外投資的目標是在 2028 年實現額外的 10 億歐元銷售額。

And then, sorry, I forgot the other part of your question, which was the split between the EUR100 million between different items.

然後，抱歉，我忘記了你問題的另一部分，那就是將這 1 億歐元分成不同的項目。

It will be both R&D and then go-to-market and channel expansion.

它將同時進行研發，然後進入市場並進行通路擴展。

Both are going to be important.

兩者都很重要。

But also, here, we are not providing the split at the moment.

但是，我們目前不提供分割。

It is important to do both.

兩點都很重要。

And again, because the market opportunity is so large, it absolutely is going to be a good investment to also increase our R&D expenditure in this segment.

而且，由於市場機會如此之大，增加我們在該領域的研發支出絕對是一項很好的投資。

As you know, we've been taking out a lot of cost from our business during the last four to five quarters.

如您所知，過去四到五個季度，我們的業務已經削減了許多成本。

It's very important to keep in mind that going forward, this is not going to be only about cost reduction.

牢記這一點很重要：展望未來，這不僅僅是為了降低成本。

We need to reallocate some of that reduced cost into growth opportunities.

我們需要將部分降低的成本重新分配到成長機會。

And again, in today's world, one of the biggest, if not the biggest growth opportunity is data centers.

再說一次，在當今世界，最大的成長機會之一（如果不是最大的）就是資料中心。

Do you have a quick follow-up, Sami?

薩米，你有什麼後續問題嗎？

Well, maybe I just want to double check that if we also consider the EUR200 million synergy target for Infinera acquisition, should we assume a cost base in '27 that is higher than today?

好吧，也許我只是想再確認一下，如果我們還考慮收購 Infinera 的 2 億歐元協同目標，我們是否應該假設 27 年的成本基礎高於今天？

Also, that is too early to comment.

此外，現在發表評論還為時過早。

We maintain what we said about the EUR100 million additional investment and then the EUR200 million synergy target in Infinera by 2027.

我們堅持之前所說的對 Infinera 額外投資 1 億歐元以及到 2027 年實現 2 億歐元協同效應的目標。

Of course, we have to remember that there will be normal cost inflation.

當然，我們必須記住，會出現正常的成本通膨。

And then where exactly we put the investment levels, it will have to be balanced with the size of the opportunity and the market development forward.

然後，我們究竟將投資水準放在哪裡，必須與機會的規模和市場的發展保持平衡。

So it's a bit premature to draw the conclusion on that detailed level, as you just did.

因此，現在就如此詳細地得出結論還為時過早，就像您剛才所做的那樣。

Sandeep Deshpande, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的 Sandeep Deshpande。

My question is going back to the Mobile Networks business.

我的問題是關於行動網路業務。

You've had some challenges in the business.

您在生意上遇到了一些挑戰。

You've guided to a flattish trend, despite some parts of the business declining.

儘管部分業務有所下滑，但您已經引導了平穩的趨勢。

Where is this business -- would you call it, Pekka, that the business is now properly turnaround?

佩卡，您認為這項業務現在處於什麼階段，是否已經真正轉虧為盈了？

This will take you to where it needs to go, and do you need to take more new contracts there?

這會帶你到達需要去的地方，你需要在那裡簽訂更多新合約嗎？

Do you need to adjust the costs there?

您需要調整那裡的成本嗎？

What will make you believe that the market is on a stable trajectory going from here as such or is it already there?

什麼會讓您相信市場從現在起正處於穩定的軌道上或已經存在了？

And I have a quick follow-up.

我還有一個快速的跟進。

Well, the key thing in Mobile Networks is really going to be the question of how to drive topline in the future.

那麼，行動網路的關鍵問題實際上是未來如何推動營收成長。

We have now a very strong base in terms of our technology competitiveness confirmed by the customer traction that we have had this year -- or that we had last year and we expect to continue this year.

現在，我們的技術競爭力已經具備了非常強大的基礎，這一點從我們今年或去年的客戶吸引力上得到了證實，並且我們預計今年這種吸引力還會繼續保持下去。

But the reality in Mobile Networks is that the service provider market will not be a significant growth market.

但行動網路的現實情況是，服務供應商市場不會成為一個顯著的成長市場。

There will be most likely some small recovery in the overall market this year.

今年整體市場很可能會出現小幅復甦。

And again, when we are guiding largely stable sales for this year, it means that when AT&T is expected to decline 4% on the MN level, it means that then the other customers will grow -- ex AT&T will grow 4%.

再說一次，當我們預計今年的銷售額將基本穩定時，這意味著當 AT&T 預計 MN 水準將下降 4% 時，其他客戶將會成長——AT&T 除外將成長 4%。

So that is showing that the market is turning, and we are taking our share of that term.

這顯示市場正在轉變，我們也正在抓住這一機會。

But still, the reality is that looking between today and 2028, '29, this will not be a big growth market for operators.

但現實情況是，從現在到 2028 年或 2029 年，這對營運商來說不會是一個巨大的成長市場。

That's why it is so important to go after the growth segments, which obviously are private wireless, private networks, and then other segments like public safety, authorities networks and, very importantly, the defense sector because, again, the defense spending in the world, unfortunately, is going up pretty much everywhere.

這就是為什麼追求成長領域如此重要，這些領域顯然是私人無線、私人網絡，然後是其他領域，如公共安全、當局網絡，以及非常重要的國防部門，因為再次強調，世界國防開支不幸的是，幾乎所有地方都在上漲。

And we are now in a very exciting position when we launched our 5G-based tactical radio solution in Q4.

當我們在第四季度推出基於 5G 的戰術無線電解決方案時，我們現在處於非常令人興奮的位置。

We are offering 5G as a fundamental communications platform for the military, including for tactical battlefield communications systems.

我們提供 5G 作為軍隊的基本通訊平台，包括戰術戰場通訊系統。

In many cases today, when you look at military communications, the capabilities of those systems are close to what we would call 3G capabilities, both in terms of speed and quality and security and so on.

如今，在許多情況下，當你觀察軍事通訊時，這些系統的能力無論是在速度、品質或安全性等方面，都接近我們所謂的 3G 能力。

There is a significant opportunity to upgrade through 4G and especially 5G.

透過 4G 尤其是 5G 進行升級有很大機會。

And we are seeing increased traction in this market, and we believe that the acquisition of Fenix was extremely well timed.

我們看到這個市場的吸引力正在增加，我們認為收購 Fenix 的時機非常好。

As I have said several times, this business take some patience because sales cycles are really, really long.

正如我多次說過的，這項業務需要一些耐心，因為銷售週期非常非常長。

But hopefully, not too distant in the future, we will be able to come with new concrete announcements on our progress in this segment.

但希望在不久的將來，我們能夠就這一領域的進展發布新的具體公告。

This is a significant part of MN strategy.

這是MN戰略的重要組成部分。

So you need to keep both CSPs flat to slow growth market, enterprise private wireless, strong growth market and defense going to be a strong growth market.

因此，您需要讓 CSP 保持平穩，使成長市場放緩，讓企業專用無線保持強勁成長，而國防市場也將成為強勁成長市場。

They all are important elements in our MN strategy.

它們都是我們 MN 策略的重要組成部分。

Just a quick follow-up on Nokia Technologies.

只是對諾基亞技術的一個快速跟進。

You've had some major deals signed with video recently.

您最近簽署了一些與影片相關的重要協議。

You've talked about the new end markets like autos, et cetera, that you are targeting.

您談到了您所瞄準的新終端市場，例如汽車等等。

But is this not new IP, but old IP and updated IP that you have now begun licensing, is this going to be a major opportunity for Nokia?

但這不是新的IP，而是您現在已經開始授權的舊IP和更新的IP，這對諾基亞來說是一個重大機會嗎？

As I said earlier as well, we definitely believe that there are growth opportunities in those new areas that we are targeting, and we continue to invest in R&D in these areas.

正如我之前所說，我們確實相信我們所瞄準的那些新領域存在成長機會，並且我們會繼續在這些領域進行研發投資。

And just like you mentioned, video streaming is one of those areas.

正如您所說，視訊串流就是其中一個領域。

But also, we see more opportunities in IoT, consumer electronics and even automotive.

但我們也在物聯網、消費性電子產品甚至汽車領域看到了更多機會。

And here, we definitely believe that, going forward, if we look at the Nokia Technologies, to be able to reach also the run rate that we have targeted, but also beyond that, because that run rate that we have, it doesn't mean that we will stop there.

在這裡，我們堅信，展望未來，如果我們看看諾基亞技術公司，它不僅能夠達到我們設定的運行率，而且還能超越這一目標，因為我們目前的運行率並沒有意味著我們將就此止步。

But we will continuously invest in new areas, R&D, and capture those opportunities by our technologies.

但我們將繼續投資新領域和研發，並透過我們的技術抓住這些機會。

Daniel Djurberg, Handelsbanken.

丹尼爾·杜爾貝格（Daniel Djurberg），德國商業銀行。

A question for me on your Mobile Networks.

我有一個關於你們的行動網路的問題。

You comment you have won 18,000 additional base station sites net in 2024.

您評論說您在 2024 年贏得了 18,000 個額外基地台站點淨增。

I was wondering if you possibly could give us a gross number and possibly also talk about this from a geographical point of view and perhaps also comment on the ASP trend you see on [BTS] year-over-year on this 18,000.

我想知道您是否可以給我們一個總數，並從地理的角度討論一下這個問題，還可以評論一下您在 [BTS] 上看到的這 18,000 個站點的同比 ASP 趨勢。

We had actually -- if you go back to the presentation, so there was a regional split on both the new CSP customers that we have won and also the customers with whom we had increased market share.

實際上 - 如果你回顧一下演示文稿，你會發現，我們贏得的新 CSP 客戶和我們增加市場份額的客戶都存在地區差異。

So more details than that, we are not going to go into.

因此，我們不會深入討論更多細節。

And of course, you will have seen some of the deal announcements that we have made.

當然，您會看到我們發布的一些交易公告。

And we continue to be encouraged on the ongoing deal momentum as well.

我們對持續的交易勢頭也繼續感到鼓舞。

That 18,000, what does it really mean?

那18000到底意味著什麼呢？

It's in a way a net run rate change.

從某種意義上來說，這是淨運行率的變化。

So you win some deals in terms of your market position and then you lose some, and this is the net amount.

因此，就您的市場地位而言，您會贏得一些交易，然後也會損失一些，這就是淨額。

We are not publishing the gross amount.

我們不會公佈總金額。

That's confidential.

這是機密。

Of course, we have also won -- lost footprint with some customers.

當然，我們也贏得了一些客戶，也失去了一些客戶。

But clearly, clearly, we have won much more than we have lost.

但很顯然，我們贏得的比失去的多得多。

And most of those losses that we had, which were not many, by the way, they had to do with the extremely aggressive pricing typically from Chinese customers in those markets where they are continuing to compete.

順便說一句，我們所遭受的損失並不多，大部分損失都與中國客戶在持續競爭的市場上採取的極具侵略性的定價有關。

And we just want to be prudent with our pricing.

我們只是想謹慎定價。

We are not participating in the most aggressive price wars.

我們不會參與最激烈的價格戰。

It would not make sense.

這毫無意義。

But despite having this prudent strategy when it comes to pricing, we had a highly successful year in terms of increasing our footprint on a net basis -- run rate basis with 18,000 sites.

但是，儘管在定價方面採取了這種審慎的策略，我們在淨基礎（按運行率計算，有 18,000 個站點）擴大覆蓋範圍方面仍然取得了巨大的成功。

Daniel, do you have a follow-up?

丹尼爾，你還有後續消息嗎？

Yes.

是的。

On Cloud and Network Services, strong momentum, return to growth, et cetera.

在雲端和網路服務方面，勢頭強勁，恢復成長等等。

You mentioned 5G core being solid.

您提到 5G 核心非常穩定。

And you mentioned 20% to 25% of CSP is now being deployed to 5G standalone.

您提到現在有 20% 到 25% 的 CSP 正在部署到 5G 獨立系統。

Can you comment a bit on if they just touched their toes into this, i.e., are they talking about a fully build of 5G standalone?

您能否評論一下他們是否剛剛涉足這一領域，即他們是否在談論全面構建 5G 獨立系統？

Or is it still only deployed parts of the network, i.e., that we will see a substantial build-out expansion also with these that has started 5G standalone in parts of the network?

或者它仍然只部署了部分網絡，也就是說，我們還將看到在部分已開始採用 5G 獨立的網絡中進行大規模的擴建？

In general, one of the things that has gone differently than, at least, I personally thought a few years ago is the pace at which 5G standalone has expanded.

總的來說，至少與我個人幾年前的想法不同的事情之一是 5G 獨立的擴展速度。

It has gone more slowly than anyone expected.

它的進展比任何人預期的都要慢。

But the momentum is picking up and as I said, we have a really strong position in that.

但勢頭正在加速，正如我所說，我們在這方面佔有非常強的地位。

But from overall market point of view, as I said also in my remarks, only a small part of the market is standalone today, which is one key reason why we do expect that CNS will have good growth opportunities in the coming years.

但從整體市場的角度來看，正如我在評論中所說的那樣，目前只有一小部分市場是獨立的，這也是我們預計 CNS 在未來幾年將擁有良好成長機會的關鍵原因。

And our relative position and our relative strength in that market is strengthening.

我們在該市場的相對地位和相對實力正在增強。

We have won several deals recently where we have displaced our competitors in the core network.

我們最近贏得了幾筆交易，在核心網路中取代了我們的競爭對手。

And this momentum is really a healthy one.

這種勢頭確實非常健康。

Still commenting another thing, which is highly relevant for CNS, is the Enterprise Campus Edge business, which includes our 5G private wireless for enterprises.

還要評論的另一件事與 CNS 高度相關，那就是企業園區邊緣業務，其中包括我們為企業提供的 5G 私人無線。

That is also looking strong.

這看上去也很強勁。

We had some weakness in that business earlier in the year.

今年早些時候，我們在該業務上存在一些弱點。

But now looking at the order intake we had, especially in Q4, we expect strong growth in that business heading into 2025.

但現在看看我們的訂單量，尤其是第四季的訂單量，我們預計到 2025 年該業務將實現強勁成長。

So CNS is not only about the core network.

因此，CNS 不僅僅涉及核心網路。

It's very much also about Enterprise Campus Edge.

這也與企業園區邊緣密切相關。

Now when we are transitioning managed services to Mobile Networks, it actually creates a more clean-cut software business portfolio for CNS, which I hope will be good for the transparency and visibility of that business in the future.

現在，當我們將託管服務轉向行動網路時，它實際上為 CNS 創建了一個更明確的軟體業務組合，我希望這將有利於未來該業務的透明度和可見性。

Ulrich Rathe, Bernstein.

烏爾里希·拉特，伯恩斯坦。

My main question is whether you have any comments at this point about the changes that are on the horizon from the new US administration's approach to China could improve your competitive situation.

我的主要問題是，您是否認為美國新政府對華政策即將發生的變化可能會改善您們的競爭狀況？

The reality is that the Chinese suppliers have held better in terms of relative product quality according to third-party surveys, and that would have been expected since the US started these efforts in 2018.

事實是，根據第三方調查，中國供應商的相對產品品質較好，自2018年美國開始這些努力以來，這也是意料之中的事。

Now there may be more efforts, and do you think something could happen there in terms of the competitiveness of your product versus the Chinese product?

現在可能會有更多的努力，你認為你們的產品與中國產品的競爭力方面會發生一些變化嗎？

Of course, this is still very early days for the new administration and then we need to see that what the actions really will be.

當然，對於新政府來說這還為時過早，我們需要看看他們究竟會採取什麼行動。

But of course, the reality is that in the US, the share of Chinese suppliers is already very small.

但當然，現實情況是，在美國，中國供應商的份額已經很小了。

This question is much more relevant for the other parts of the world.

這個問題對於世界其他地區來說更為重要。

And then, of course, how the overall tech war is going, but that's another question.

當然，整個技術戰爭進展如何，但那是另一個問題。

But if we look at the position of the Chinese suppliers, they are strongly in play in many European markets still today.

但如果我們看看中國供應商的地位，他們至今仍在許多歐洲市場佔有重要地位。

This is something that the new European Commission will, of course, be discussing, the question of the 5G toolbox in Europe, how it will be applied in the future, whether or not it will be expanded to cover also other parts of the network besides 5G, as we have suggested.

當然，新一屆歐盟委員會將討論歐洲 5G 工具箱的問題，以及它將如何在未來應用，以及它是否會擴展到覆蓋網路的其他部分。

And then, of course, the crucial important question also is that what will then happen in the rest of the world, Latin America, Africa, Middle East, significant parts of Southeast Asia where the Chinese vendors are competing very strongly today, that will there be attempts by the US administration to change the situation in these parts of the world.

當然，一個至關重要的問題是，世界其他地區，拉丁美洲、非洲、中東、東南亞大部分地區，中國供應商如今在這些地區競爭非常激烈，未來會發生什麼？嘗試。

This is not for us to speculate.

這不是我們可以推測的。

This will be political questions, and we are not a political actor, we are just observing the outcomes of these discussions.

這將是政治問題，我們不是政治參與者，我們只是觀察這些討論的結果。

In the interest of time, we'll move to our next question.

由於時間緊迫，我們將轉到下一個問題。

Can I have a follow-up?

我可以進行後續跟進嗎？

A quick one if you have one, Ulrich.

如果你有的話，可以快速回答一下，烏爾里希。

Yes.

是的。

The follow-up would only be, you answered it mainly in -- with regards to deployment restrictions, but I was talking about the competitiveness of the product, which has something to do with the technology sanctions and the ability of the Chinese suppliers actually producing product that seems to be performing from a technology perspective rather well.

後續問題只是，你主要回答了部署限制的問題，但我談論的是產品的競爭力，這與技術制裁和中國供應商實際生產的能力有關從技術角度來看，該產品的表現似乎相當出色。

The deployment restriction is entirely sort of different part of this pincer movement.

部署限制是這次鉗形攻勢的完全不同的部分。

Yes, you're absolutely right.

是的，你完全正確。

Of course, these are two fundamentally different questions.

當然，這是兩個根本不同的問題。

And this will very much depend on what type of access the Chinese vendors will have to the latest silicon, what type of restrictions on chips will there be in the future and then what type of capabilities they will have inside China.

這在很大程度上取決於中國供應商對最新矽片的獲取方式、未來對晶片將有何種限制以及他們在中國境內將擁有何種能力。

Currently, the situation is that when it comes to the latest silicon that require EUV, they do not have access, but it's too early to speculate what type of actions the new US administration will take, in many cases, together with the allies.

目前的情況是，當談到需要EUV 的最新矽片時，他們還沒有機會，但現在推測美國新政府將採取何種行動還為時過早，在許多情況下，是與盟友一起採取的行動。

This is not only a US question.

這不僅是美國的問題。

European Union will also have a lot to say on this.

歐盟對此也有很多發言權。

And then, of course, the question that I'm not at all going to speculate on is that what's the internal development capabilities of China will be in the future.

當然，我根本不會去猜測的問題是，未來中國的內部發展能力將會如何。

Rob Sanders, Deutsche Bank.

德意志銀行的羅布‧桑德斯。

There's some reports that the DOJ is investigating the Juniper deal.

有通報美國司法部正在調查瞻博網路交易。

I was just wondering if that deal, do you think, creates opportunities for you, either already or perhaps in the future just because of the disruption that could come with that deal and because of perhaps partnerships that Juniper previously had that maybe you could now take advantage of yourself.

我只是想知道，您是否認為這筆交易會為您創造機會，無論是已經創造的，還是可能在未來創造的，因為這筆交易可能帶來的混亂，以及瞻博網路之前可能建立的合作夥伴關係，您現在可以利用這些機會發揮自己的優勢。

And I have a follow-up.

我還有一個後續問題。

I have no comment to that speculation.

我對這個猜測不予置評。

That is not for us to comment.

對此我們無權評論。

But on a general level, of course, always when there is M&A activities, that creates opportunities for competitors.

但從一般層面來看，當然，只要有併購活動，就會為競爭對手創造機會。

We, of course, try to take advantage of that.

我們當然會盡力利用這一點。

And I know that when we are in M&A situations, our competitors are trying to get advantage of that.

我知道，當我們進行併購時，我們的競爭對手正試圖利用這一點。

So there is nothing dramatic there.

因此，這並沒有什麼戲劇性。

But we now just need to see what the outcome of that situation will be.

但現在我們只需要看看這種情況的結果會是什麼。

And just as a follow-up.

僅作為後續行動。

On the EUR100 million investment, is that primarily on R&D?

關於 1 億歐元的投資，主要用於研發嗎？

Or is there enough to sort of build out channel and sales force to leverage your tech advantage?

或是有足夠的資源建立通路和銷售團隊來發揮你的技術優勢？

It's both, it's clearly both.

兩者都是，顯然兩者都是。

There's going to be increased R&D, but then a meaningful portion of that additional investment will also go to go-to-market and channel and partnership programs.

研發投入將會加大，但額外投資中很大一部分也將用於市場進入、通路和合作夥伴計畫。

Felix Henriksson, Nordea.

費利克斯亨利克森 (Felix Henriksson)，Nordea 銀行。

I wanted to touch on the full year EBIT guidance and the different scenarios that you've baked into the, one could say, a relatively wide guidance range of EUR1.9 billion to EUR2.4 billion.

我想談談全年息稅前利潤指引和您考慮到的不同情景，可以說，指引範圍相對較寬，為 19 億歐元至 24 億歐元。

So what in your eyes has to go well for you to get to the upper end?

那麼，您認為需要做哪些事情才能達到更高的目標呢？

And on the contrary, what happens if you get to the lower end of that guidance rate?

相反，如果達到指導率的低端，會發生什麼情況？

Is it mainly related to the top line recovery or are there other puts and takes?

這主要與營收復甦有關嗎，還是還有其他利弊？

And as always, when we provide a range, we take into account what we know and understand today of the market development.

像往常一樣，當我們提供一個範圍時，我們會考慮我們目前對市場發展的了解和理解。

And the market is a clear one driver and how this will evolve over the coming quarters.

市場是一個明顯的驅動因素，以及未來幾季它將如何發展。

And what we see currently is that the improving trends that we've seen in the second half of 2024 should continue into 2025 as well, and this is supportive of the underlying improvement.

我們目前看到的是，2024 年下半年的改善趨勢也應該會持續到 2025 年，這有利於潛在的改善。

Do you have a quick follow-up, Felix?

菲利克斯，你有什麼後續問題嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Just quickly on how you consider the outlook for BEAD in the US and for fiber as the dominant technology, so as following Trump's election as the President, just curious to hear your thoughts about that?

我想簡單問一下，您如何看待 BEAD 在美國的發展前景以及光纖作為主導技術，以及川普當選總統後您對此有何看法？

We have to remember that one key reason why the BEAD program was together, in addition to accelerating broadband development in less populated parts of the US, was really the connection between BEAD and the requirement for local manufacturing.

我們必須記住，除了加速美國人口較少地區的寬頻發展之外，BEAD 計畫實施的關鍵原因實際上是 BEAD 與本地製造要求之間的關聯。

And of course, all indications are that the new administration is even more keen, if possible, to attract US manufacturing.

當然，所有跡像都表明，如果可能的話，新政府將更加熱衷於吸引美國製造業。

And that's exactly what we did.

我們也確實這麼做了。

We started the manufacturing of broadband equipment in Wisconsin.

我們開始在威斯康辛州生產寬頻設備。

So we believe that these type of actions that we have taken will be favored by the new administration.

因此我們相信我們採取的這些行動將會受到新政府的青睞。

Then, the suggestion would be is that we have seen that the money has been more or less allocated to the 56 states and territories.

那麼，建議是，我們已經看到這筆錢或多或少分配給了 56 個州和地區。

They have received approval for their initial proposals.

他們的初步提案已獲得批准。

We have received orders from three customers during Q4, and this is expected to gradually pick up.

我們在第四季已經收到了三位客戶的訂單，預計訂單量將逐步回升。

Then if there will be some additional slowness in the process or not because of the administration change, we have not seen that, that would happen.

那麼，如果這個過程會變得更加緩慢，或者不是因為政府的變動，我們還沒有看到這種情況，但這種情況會發生。

But of course, it's very difficult to speculate on something that you don't know.

但當然，對你不知道的事情進行推測是非常困難的。

But I would be highly surprised if somehow after the money already has been allocated to the states that there would somehow be a complete reversal of this program.

但如果在資金已經分配給各州之後，該計劃卻以某種方式完全逆轉，我會感到非常驚訝。

Thank you, Felix, and thank you all for the questions today.

謝謝你，菲利克斯，也謝謝大家今天提出的問題。

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call.

女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。

I would like to remind you that during the call today, we have made a number of forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties.

我想提醒您，在今天的電話會議中，我們做出了一些涉及風險和不確定性的前瞻性陳述。

Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results currently expected.

因此，實際結果可能與目前預期的結果有重大差異。

Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors.

造成這種差異的因素既可能是外部因素，也可能是內部營運因素。

We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website.

我們已在 20-F 表年度報告的風險因素部分中指明了此類風險，該報告可在我們投資者關係網站上查閱。

Thank you, all.

謝謝大家。

The conference has now concluded.

會議現已結束。

Thank you for attending today's presentation.

感謝您參加今天的演講。

You may now disconnect.

您現在可以斷開連線。