諾基亞 (NOK) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Nokia's second quarter 2025 results call. I'm David Mulholland, Head of Investor Relations. And today with me is Justin Hotard, our President and CEO; along with Marco Wiren, our CFO.

女士們、先生們，早安。歡迎參加諾基亞 2025 年第二季業績電話會議。我是投資人關係主管大衛‧穆赫蘭 (David Mulholland)。今天和我一起的還有我們的總裁兼執行長賈斯汀·霍塔德 (Justin Hotard) 以及我們的財務長馬可·維倫 (Marco Wiren)。

Before we get started, a quick disclaimer. During this call, we will be making forward-looking statements regarding our future business and financial performance, and these statements or predictions that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may, therefore, differ materially from the results we currently expect. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website.

在我們開始之前，先簡單聲明一下。在本次電話會議中，我們將就我們未來的業務和財務表現做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述或預測涉及風險和不確定性。因此，實際結果可能與我們目前預期的結果有重大差異。造成這種差異的因素既有外在因素，也有內在因素。我們已在 20-F 表年度報告的風險因素部分中確定了此類風險，該報告可在我們投資者關係網站上查閱。

Within today's presentation, references to growth rates will mostly be on a constant currency and portfolio basis, and other financial items will be based on our comparable reporting. Please note that our Q2 report and the presentation that accompanies this call are published on our website. The report includes both reported and comparable financial results and reconciliation between the two.

在今天的演示中，對成長率的引用將主要基於固定貨幣和投資組合，其他財務項目將基於我們的可比較報告。請注意，我們的第二季報告和本次電話會議的簡報已在我們的網站上發布。該報告包括報告的和可比較的財務結果以及兩者之間的對帳。

In terms of the agenda for today, Justin will go through our key messages from the quarter, and then Marco will go through the financial performance, and we'll then move to Q&A.

就今天的議程而言，賈斯汀將介紹我們本季度的關鍵信息，然後馬可將介紹財務業績，然後我們將進入問答環節。

With that, let me hand over to Justin.

說完這些，讓我把麥克風交給賈斯汀。

Thanks, David, and good morning. During my first quarter as President and CEO, I've spent significant time engaging with our stakeholders, and it has left me with two conclusions. First, I have increased optimism about our future opportunity. It is clear to me that connectivity will be a critical differentiator in the AI super cycle. That is true not only for the hyperscalers where it's visible today, but also for communication service providers and increasingly in areas like defense and national security. With our portfolio in mobile and fiber access, transport and data center networks, Nokia is uniquely positioned to be a leader in this market transition. We are investing to capitalize on this opportunity, and we are already starting to see success today in areas like optical networking.

謝謝，大衛，早安。在我擔任總裁兼執行長的第一個季度，我花了大量時間與我們的利害關係人接觸，並得出了兩個結論。首先，我對我們未來的機會更加樂觀。我很清楚，連接性將成為人工智慧超級週期的關鍵區別因素。這不僅適用於當今可見的超大規模企業，也適用於通訊服務提供商，並且越來越多地應用於國防和國家安全等領域。憑藉在行動和光纖接入、傳輸和資料中心網路領域的產品組合，諾基亞在這一市場轉型中佔據著獨特的領先地位。我們正在投資以利用這一機會，並且我們已經開始在光網絡等領域取得成功。

Second, our customers expect us to engage with them as one integrated company as the majority of them partner with us across our portfolio. We benefit greatly from the financial accountability our business group structure gives us. However, we also need to evolve how we work so we can move faster, improve productivity and focus on what brings value to our customers. As a result, we're unifying our corporate functions to simplify how we work and to build a more cohesive culture to help unlock operating leverage. I'm looking forward to discussing our strategy and full value creation story at our Capital Markets Day in New York on November 19.

其次，我們的客戶希望我們以一家綜合公司的身份與他們合作，因為大多數客戶都與我們透過我們的產品組合合作。我們的業務集團結構賦予我們的財務責任使我們受益匪淺。然而，我們也需要改進我們的工作方式，以便我們能夠更快地採取行動，提高生產力，並專注於為客戶帶來價值。因此，我們正在統一公司職能，以簡化工作方式並建立更具凝聚力的文化，以幫助釋放營運槓桿。我期待在 11 月 19 日於紐約舉行的資本市場日上討論我們的策略和完整的價值創造故事。

Turning to our second-quarter results. Our performance was mixed. Good growth in both Network Infrastructure and Cloud and Network Services was offset by a decline in Mobile Networks, primarily related to the accelerated revenue recognition seen in the prior year quarter. Our profitability was impacted by currency fluctuations, particularly the weaker US dollar, which was both an operational headwind and a headwind in our venture fund.

談談我們的第二季業績。我們的表現好壞參半。網路基礎設施和雲端及網路服務的良好成長被行動網路的下滑所抵消，這主要與去年同期的收入確認加速有關。我們的獲利能力受到貨幣波動的影響，尤其是美元疲軟，這不僅為我們的營運帶來了不利影響，也為我們的創投基金帶來了不利影響。

We had a EUR50 million non-cash negative impact from our venture funds in the quarter, which included a EUR60 million negative impact from currency. Excluding currency, our profitability in the quarter would have been in line with our expectations, and we continue to make investments in longer-term growth opportunities.

本季度，我們的創投基金為我們帶來了 5,000 萬歐元的非現金負面影響，其中包括 6,000 萬歐元的貨幣負面影響。不計貨幣因素，本季我們的獲利能力符合預期，我們將繼續對長期成長機會進行投資。

The second quarter was first full quarter since we acquired Infinera. The combined Optical Networks business has been performing well with a book-to-bill well above 1, showing continued strong commercial momentum, though our growth was tempered somewhat by its supply constraints, and we're on track to achieve our committed synergies from the acquisition.

第二季是我們收購 Infinera 以來的第一個完整季度。合併後的光網路業務表現良好，訂單出貨比遠高於 1，顯示出持續強勁的商業勢頭，儘管我們的成長受到供應限制的一定程度的影響，但我們正朝著實現收購所承諾的協同效應的方向前進。

Looking forward, the demand environment remains broadly consistent with what we said last quarter. Customers are largely continuing with the plans they laid out at the start of the year, and there has not been any major impact from geopolitical uncertainty. As a result, for the full year, we continue to expect strong growth in Network Infrastructure, growth in Cloud and Network Services, and largely stable net sales in Mobile Networks. In Nokia Technologies, we still expect EUR1.1 billion of operating profit.

展望未來，需求環境與我們上個季度所說的大致一致。客戶基本上仍在繼續執行年初制定的計劃，地緣政治不確定性並未帶來任何重大影響。因此，我們預計全年網路基礎設施將強勁成長，雲端和網路服務將成長，行動網路的淨銷售額將基本穩定。我們仍預期諾基亞科技公司的營業利潤將達到 11 億歐元。

Let me share a few highlights from the quarter across our business groups. In Network Infrastructure, we continue to see a strong demand environment in optical networks and a positive reception to the Infinera acquisition from customers. Two deals I'd like to highlight in optical, our first award from a hyperscaler for 800 gig ZR/ZR+ pluggables and a deal with a large US communication service provider.

讓我分享一下我們各業務集團本季的一些亮點。在網路基礎設施方面，我們繼續看到光纖網路的強勁需求環境以及客戶對 Infinera 收購的積極反應。我想重點介紹一下光纖領域的兩筆交易，第一筆是我們首次從超大規模廠商獲得 800G ZR/ZR+ 可插拔光纖網路合同，第二筆是與一家美國大型通訊服務提供商達成的交易。

Overall, hyperscalers are one of the biggest drivers of our order intake in the quarter and remain a significant growth opportunity for our network infrastructure business. Across the whole of Nokia, hyperscalers accounted for 5% of net sales in the second quarter.

總體而言，超大規模企業是我們本季訂單量的最大驅動力之一，並且仍然是我們網路基礎設施業務的重要成長機會。在整個諾基亞公司中，超大規模廠商佔第二季淨銷售額的 5%。

In IP Networks, we continued our leading position in the market, remaining number one in edge routing and number two in total routing. We continue to see a long-term opportunity in AI infrastructure and are investing to accelerate growth. Recently, we've been an active participant in consortiums that are bidding to benefit from the EU's EUR20 billion program to build AI Gigafactories in Europe.

在 IP 網路領域，我們繼續保持市場領先地位，在邊緣路由領域保持第一，在整體路由領域保持第二。我們繼續看到人工智慧基礎設施的長期機遇，並正在進行投資以加速成長。最近，我們積極參與競標歐盟 200 億歐元計畫的財團，以在歐洲建造人工智慧超級工廠。

In Fixed Networks, we still expect strong growth this year. And the appetite for fiber among Tier 1 CSPs remain strong. The past 12 months have seen us strengthen our market leadership position in the operator premise equipment, OLT, and we are continuing to invest in innovation in passive Optical Networks.

在固定網路方面，我們仍然預計今年將實現強勁成長。一級 CSP 對光纖的需求依然強勁。過去 12 個月，我們加強了在營運商終端設備 OLT 領域的市場領導地位，並且我們將繼續投資於無源光網路的創新。

Turning to Mobile Networks. At the start of the quarter, we signed an extension to our RAN agreement with T-Mobile US, which we announced in our Q1 earnings. We also announced 5G deals with Elisa in Finland and Optus in Australia. We continue to see good overall commercial momentum. And the competitiveness of our products is resonating with customers. We are optimistic about the potential 3GPP technology can bring into the defense sector.

轉向行動網路。在本季度初，我們與 T-Mobile US 簽署了 RAN 協議的延期，並在第一季財報中宣布了這一消息。我們也宣布與芬蘭的 Elisa 和澳洲的 Optus 達成 5G 協議。我們繼續看到良好的整體商業動能。而且我們產品的競爭力也引起了客戶的共鳴。我們對 3GPP 技術為國防領域帶來的潛力持樂觀態度。

In Q2, we announced a partnership with blackned in which Rheinmetall owns a majority stake, and we now have delivered Banshee radio units to the US Marine Corps through Nokia Federal Solutions.

在第二季度，我們宣布與萊茵金屬公司擁有多數股權的 blackned 建立合作夥伴關係，目前我們已經透過諾基亞聯邦解決方案向美國海軍陸戰隊交付了 Banshee 無線電裝置。

Finally, Cloud and Network Services had a strong quarter with new 5G core wins and deployments, including across India, Europe, and the Middle East. We're continuing to progress on our open API journey, with 57 partners announced for our Network as Code platform, including Telstra and the Bridge Alliance in Asia. We also announced a partnership with Verizon in the UK provide private 5G networks across multiple Thames Freeport sites.

最後，雲端和網路服務本季表現強勁，在印度、歐洲和中東等地獲得了新的 5G 核心勝利和部署。我們在開放 API 之旅上繼續前進，並宣布 57 個合作夥伴加入我們的網路即代碼平台，其中包括 Telstra 和亞洲的 Bridge Alliance。我們也宣布與英國 Verizon 合作，為泰晤士自由港的多個站點提供私人 5G 網路。

Finally, let me turn to our outlook for the full year 2025. As we announced on Tuesday, we decided to take the prudent approach of lowering our full-year outlook from EUR1.9 billion to EUR2.4 billion to a new range of EUR1.6 billion to EUR2.1 billion. The change has been driven by two factors that are largely outside of our control.

最後，讓我談談我們對 2025 年全年的展望。正如我們週二宣布的那樣，我們決定採取審慎的方式，將全年預期從 19 億歐元至 24 億歐元下調至 16 億歐元至 21 億歐元的新範圍。這項改變是由兩個我們無法控制的因素所推動的。

The first impact is currency. When we issued first issued our guidance for 2025, the euro-dollar rate was $1.04, and it has now moved significantly to $1.17. Altogether, this currency movement is posing a EUR230 million headwind to our operating profit outlook for 2025, of which EUR90 million is related to the non-cash currency impact in our venture fund portfolio. Marco will provide you additional detail on this in his comments.

第一個影響是貨幣。我們首次發布2025年業績指引時，歐元兌美元匯率為1.04美元，目前已大幅升至1.17美元。整體而言，此匯率波動對我們2025年的營業利潤預期構成了2.3億歐元的阻力，其中9,000萬歐元與我們創投基金投資組合中的非現金貨幣影響有關。Marco 將在他的評論中為您提供有關此問題的更多詳細資訊。

The second is the tariff situation. For the full year 2025, we now expect to see an impact of between EUR50 million and EUR80 million tied to fulfillment of preexisting customer orders. The underlying performance across the business is in line with our expectations at the start of the year. Therefore, it is these two factors that lead us to change comparable operating profit outlook. Our guidance for free cash flow conversion remains unchanged at 50% to 80% of comparable operating profit.

第二是關稅情況。對於 2025 年全年而言，我們預計與履行現有客戶訂單相關的影響將在 5,000 萬歐元至 8,000 萬歐元之間。整個業務的基本表現符合我們年初的預期。因此，這兩個因素導致我們改變可比營業利潤前景。我們對自由現金流轉換的指導保持不變，仍為可比營業利潤的 50% 至 80%。

With that, let me hand over to Marco.

說完這些，讓我把麥克風交給馬可。

Thank you, Justin, and hello from my side as well. I will start by discussing our overall growth performance.

謝謝你，賈斯汀，我也向你問好。我將首先討論我們的整體成長表現。

Quarter two net sales were at EUR4.55 billion. That's a 1% decline on constant currency and portfolio basis. Our gross margin was stable versus the year ago quarter at 44.7%. Mobile Networks and Network Infrastructure gross margins were broadly stable, while Cloud and Network Services delivered an improvement of 520 basis points, driven by top-line growth. Operating margin declined to 6.6% as a result of the negative currency impact to our venture funds as well as the impact of tariffs, which were within the EUR20 million to EUR30 million range we had expected.

第二季淨銷售額為45.5億歐元。以固定匯率和投資組合計算，下降了 1%。我們的毛利率與去年同期相比保持穩定，為 44.7%。行動網路和網路基礎設施的毛利率基本上保持穩定，而雲端和網路服務的毛利率在營收成長的推動下提高了 520 個基點。由於貨幣對我們的風險基金的負面影響以及關稅的影響，營業利潤率下降至 6.6%，而關稅的影響在我們預期的 2000 萬歐元至 3000 萬歐元範圍內。

Assuming existing tariff rates, we now expect an impact to our full-year operating profit of around EUR50 million to EUR80 million. And we generated EUR88 million of free cash flow in the quarter and ended the quarter with EUR2.9 billion of net cash.

假設現有的關稅稅率，我們預計這將對我們的全年營業利潤產生約 5,000 萬歐元至 8,000 萬歐元的影響。我們在本季度產生了 8,800 萬歐元的自由現金流，本季末的淨現金為 29 億歐元。

Now turning to our business growth performance. Network Infrastructure delivered 8% growth, and each business unit grew with Fixed Networks having a particularly strong quarter, growing 17%; Optical Networks grew 6%; and IP networks grew 3%. Optical Networks growth was hampered by some modest supply chain constraints and could have grown over 10%, and we expect these issues to improve in the second half. Gross margin was relatively stable despite the 110 basis points impact from tariffs, in line with what we have expected.

現在談談我們的業務成長表現。網路基礎設施實現了 8% 的成長，每個業務部門都實現了成長，其中固定網路本季表現尤為強勁，成長了 17%；光纖網路成長了 6%；IP 網路成長了 3%。光網路業務的成長受到一些輕微的供應鏈限制的阻礙，成長幅度可能超過 10%，我們預計這些問題將在下半年得到改善。儘管關稅影響了 110 個基點，但毛利率仍然相對穩定，符合我們的預期。

Operating margin declined slightly by 70 basis points year on year to 5.7%. And this was mainly the result of higher operating expenses associated with the Infinera acquisition as well as increased investments into growth opportunities. It is worth noting that the ex Infinera business was dilutive to operating margin in the quarter although the integration process continues, and we are moving quickly to deliver on our committed synergies.

營業利益率較去年小幅下降70個基點至5.7%。這主要是由於收購 Infinera 帶來的營運費用增加以及對成長機會的投資增加。值得注意的是，儘管整合過程仍在繼續，但本季除 Infinera 以外的業務仍稀釋了營業利潤率，而且我們正在迅速採取行動，以實現我們承諾的協同效應。

Net sales in Mobile Networks declined by 13% in the quarter. As mentioned, much of this decline was because of the EUR150 million in accelerated revenue recognition from a contract settlement that benefited the year ago quarter. Regionally, we saw mixed trends in Mobile Networks. The pause in rollouts impacted India. However, we did see some growth in Europe.

本季行動網路淨銷售額下降了 13%。如上所述，這一下降主要是因為去年同期合約結算帶來的 1.5 億歐元加速收入確認。從地區來看，我們看到行動網路的趨勢不一。推廣暫停對印度產生了影響。然而，我們確實看到了歐洲的一些成長。

Mobile Networks gross margin was 41.1% in the quarter, a 70 basis points decline year over year as favorable product and regional mix helped to offset a difficult comparison related to the settlement that benefited the prior year. These factors led to operating profit and margin declining despite lower operating expenses.

本季行動網路毛利率為 41.1%，年減 70 個基點，因為有利的產品和區域組合有助於抵消與去年受益的和解相關的困難比較。儘管營業費用降低，但這些因素導致營業利潤和利潤率下降。

As we look to quarter three, we expect gross margin to be below the normal run rate level as we expect an unfavorable product mix shift in the quarter. For the full year, Mobile Networks gross margin should remain in the normalized 37% to 38% range when excluding the onetime impact we saw in quarter one.

展望第三季度，我們預計毛利率將低於正常的運行率水平，因為我們預計本季的產品組合將出現不利的變化。就全年而言，如果排除第一季的一次性影響，行動網路毛利率應保持在 37% 至 38% 的正常範圍內。

Cloud and Network Services net sales growth by 14% in the quarter, reflecting continued momentum in core networks. From a regional perspective, CNS saw growth driven by North America and Asia Pacific and Japan. The higher level of net sales from strong expansion in both gross and operating margin, which improved 520 and 850 basis points, respectively.

本季雲端和網路服務淨銷售額成長 14%，反映出核心網路的持續成長動能。從區域角度來看，CNS 的成長主要受到北美、亞太地區和日本的推動。淨銷售額的提高得益於毛利率和營業利潤率的強勁增長，分別提高了 520 個基點和 850 個基點。

Nokia Technologies net sales increased by 3% on a constant currency basis. We signed several new agreements as we continue to make progress in our growth areas of automotive, consumer electronics, IoT, and multimedia. Our net sales run rate remains approximately at EUR1.4 billion.

以固定匯率計算，諾基亞技術公司的淨銷售額成長了 3%。隨著我們在汽車、消費性電子、物聯網和多媒體等成長領域不斷取得進展，我們簽署了多項新協議。我們的淨銷售額運行率仍維持在約 14 億歐元。

Now let's look at the net sales by region. We saw a decline in North America, although this reflects mix trends. Mobile Networks declined because of the settlement in the year ago quarter, while we saw double-digit growth in both Network Infrastructure and Cloud and Network Services.

現在讓我們來看看各地區的淨銷售額。我們看到北美地區出現了下滑，儘管這反映了混合趨勢。由於去年同期的和解，行動網路業務出現下滑，而網路基礎設施和雲端及網路服務業務則實現了兩位數的成長。

Within APAC, India sales were flat, reflecting a pause in investment in Mobile Networks, which was offset by growth in Fixed Networks within Network Infrastructure as well as Cloud and Network Services. In credit, China continued to decline as expected based on the current market trends. We saw strength in Europe with growth across all businesses.

在亞太地區，印度的銷售額持平，反映出行動網路投資暫停，但被網路基礎設施中的固定網路以及雲端和網路服務的成長所抵消。信貸方面，根據目前的市場趨勢，中國信貸持續下降，一如預期。我們看到歐洲的實力強勁，所有業務均成長。

Now turning to our cash performance. We ended the quarter with a net cash in of EUR2.9 billion. You can see on the slide that working capital was well managed in the quarter, as the expected payment of 2024 related incentives was largely offset by a strong collection in receivables.

現在來談談我們的現金表現。本季末我們的淨現金流入為 29 億歐元。您可以在幻燈片上看到本季營運資金管理良好，因為預計支付的 2024 年相關激勵措施在很大程度上被強勁的應收帳款收回所抵消。

Free cash flow was positive EUR88 million, leading to over EUR800 million of free cash flow in the first half. As Justin noted, we continue to target 50% to 80% free cash flow conversion from comparable operating profit for the full year.

自由現金流為正8,800萬歐元，導致上半年自由現金流超過8億歐元。正如賈斯汀所指出的，我們繼續將全年可比營業利潤的自由現金流轉換為 50% 至 80% 的目標定為。

The last topic I want to cover is our currency exposure, as I know there have been some questions following our announcement on Tuesday. First of all, we typically generate about 55% of our net sales and have 50% of our total costs in US dollars, but we reported in euros. We have said in the past that we have a high degree of natural hedging with our operating business, protecting our operating margin, but we still have an impact on an absolute basis when you convert USD profit back to euros for reporting purposes.

我要談的最後一個主題是我們的貨幣風險，因為我知道在周二我們宣布消息後出現了一些疑問。首先，我們的淨銷售額的 55% 左右以及總成本的 50% 通常是以美元計算的，但我們的報告是以歐元計算的。我們過去曾表示，我們的經營業務具有高度的自然對沖，保護了我們的營業利潤率，但當您將美元利潤換算回歐元用於報告目的時，我們仍然會在絕對基礎上產生影響。

Then on top of that, we have a hedging program, which helps to shield us on a short-term basis. So what happens this year? When we first provided our guidance in January, the euro-US, the rate was at $1.04. Now the currency rate is around $1.17, and our guidance is assuming it remains there for the rest of the year. That is a significant USD0.13 movement. There has also been significant strengthening in the euro against other currencies, including the Indian rupee.

除此之外，我們還有一個對沖計劃，可以幫助我們在短期內獲得保護。那麼今年會發生什麼事？我們1月首次發布指引時，歐元兌美元匯率為1.04美元。目前，該匯率約為1.17美元，我們的指引假設該匯率在今年剩餘時間內維持在該水準。這是 0.13 美元的一個重大變動。歐元兌印度盧比等其他貨幣也大幅走強。

Assuming currency rates remain at the current level for the rest of the year, the currency movement compared to January is a 6% to 7% impact to our net sales outlook for the full year. We do have a modest imbalance between net sales and total cost in our operating operations, meaning a strengthening euro has a slight negative impact on our operating margin, which is then largely offset short term by hedging.

假設今年剩餘時間的匯率維持在當前水平，與 1 月相比，貨幣變動將對我們全年淨銷售額前景產生 6% 至 7% 的影響。我們的營運業務中的淨銷售額和總成本之間確實存在輕微的不平衡，這意味著歐元走強會對我們的營業利潤率產生輕微的負面影響，但這種影響在短期內可以透過對沖在很大程度上得到抵消。

When you combine all of these together, we see a EUR140 million operating headwind compared to our expectations at the start of the year. And we hedge on a rolling four-quarter basis, just that the first two quarters, net US operational exposure is quite well hedged. And then the degree of hedging drops the third and fourth quarter. And this means that at the start of the year, we still had exposure to currency fluctuations for the second half, but that at this point of the year, we are now largely operationally hedged.

將所有這些因素綜合起來，與年初的預期相比，我們看到了 1.4 億歐元的營運逆風。我們以滾動四個季度為基礎進行對沖，僅在前兩個季度，美國淨營運風險就得到了相當好的對沖。第三季和第四季對沖程度下降。這意味著，在年初，我們仍然面臨下半年貨幣波動的風險，但到了今年這個時候，我們基本上已經進行了營運對沖。

Finally, we have currency exposure from our venture fund investments. A lot of these assets are valued in US dollars. These are illiquid investments that are only revalued when there is a capital event. However, under IFRS, we need to mark-to-market for currency each quarter. And this is creating an EUR90 million impact currently for the full year. Considering this is both non-cash and non-operational telco businesses, we don't hedge this.

最後，我們的創投基金投資存在貨幣風險。許多資產都是以美元計價的。這些是非流動性投資，只有在發生資本事件時才會重新估價。然而，根據國際財務報告準則，我們需要每季對貨幣進行以市價計價。目前，這將為全年帶來 9000 萬歐元的影響。考慮到這是非現金和非營運電信業務，我們不對此進行對沖。

Through the rest of the year, and including the French [refund] impact for modeling purposes, we estimate that every USD0.01 movement in the euro-USD rate could have about EUR10 million to EUR15 million impact on our operating profit in 2025.

在今年剩餘時間內，出於建模目的考慮法國[退稅]的影響，我們估計歐元兌美元匯率每變動 0.01 美元，就可能對我們 2025 年的營業利潤產生約 1000 萬至 1500 萬歐元的影響。

Thank you, Justin and Marco. Before we turn to the Q&A session, one date for your diary. We recently sent out a save the date confirming that Nokia will hold its Capital Markets Day this year in New York on November 19. We will be sending a formal registration shortly, and we hope as many of you as possible will be able to join us.

謝謝你，賈斯汀和馬可。在我們進入問答環節之前，請記下您的日記中的一個日期。我們最近發出了確認日期的通知，確認諾基亞將於今年 11 月 19 日在紐約舉辦資本市場日。我們很快就會發送正式的註冊訊息，希望盡可能多的人能夠加入我們。

As usual, for the Q&A session, as a courtesy to others in the queue, could you please limit yourself to one question and a brief follow-up. Dorman, could you please give the instructions?

像往常一樣，在問答環節，為了尊重隊列中的其他人，請您只提出一個問題並進行簡短的跟進。多爾曼，您能給說明嗎？

(Operator Instructions) I will now hand the call back to Mr. David Mulholland.

（接線員指示）我現在將電話交還給大衛·穆赫蘭先生。

Thanks, Dorman. We'll take our first question today from Richard Kramer from Arete. Richard, please go ahead.

謝謝，多爾曼。今天我們的第一個問題來自 Arete 的 Richard Kramer。理查德，請繼續。

Justin, I asked last call about what you thought was required to win large hyperscaler deals. And in your prepared remarks, you mentioned potential integration of business operations, even though a lot of those hyperscaler deals are for products that mostly sit in NI. Given the big increases we've seen from hyperscaler CapEx, I mean, what is the unlock or what do you see as the key issues for Nokia increasing materially that percentage of sales to hyperscalers that you've got now and moving towards double digits and beyond?

賈斯汀，我上次問過你，你認為贏得大型超大規模交易需要什麼。在您準備好的演講中，您提到了業務運營的潛在整合，儘管許多超大規模交易針對的是主要位於北愛爾蘭的產品。鑑於我們看到超大規模資本支出的大幅增長，我的意思是，諾基亞能否大幅提高目前對超大規模客戶的銷售額百分比並邁向兩位數甚至更高，其關鍵問題是什麼？

Yeah. Richard, thank you for that. I think a couple of things. First of all, the functional changes that we're making are really around functional support organizations. I think there's plenty of companies that have their operating models aligned functionally like we're doing.

是的。理查德，謝謝你。我想到幾件事。首先，我們正在進行的功能變革實際上是圍繞著功能支援組織進行的。我認為有很多公司的營運模式在功能上與我們一致。

And again, just to reiterate, if you look at our organizations, our legal team, legal compliance and sustainability was actually operating in this way already. And the other functions we're operating in a slightly different manner. So we're just driving consistency within the company.

再次重申，如果你看看我們的組織，我們的法律團隊、法律合規性和永續性實際上已經以這種方式運作了。我們以稍微不同的方式操作其他功能。所以我們只是在推動公司內部的一致性。

Separating that, let's talk about two things that are important for hyperscalers. One is the customer relationship and customer intimacy. This is where the BG structure and specifically the sales team we have in NI, including the team that we've integrated from Infinera is very important. And it's understanding those customers, understanding they're predicting able to work with them around product design, forecasting, planning, and obviously, supply chain execution and delivery as well as negotiating terms and all the things you would expect.

除此之外，讓我們來談談對超大規模企業來說重要的兩件事。一是客戶關係和客戶親密度。這就是 BG 結構，特別是我們在 NI 的銷售團隊（包括我們從 Infinera 整合的團隊）非常重要的地方。了解這些客戶，了解他們預測能夠與他們合作進行產品設計、預測、規劃，顯然還有供應鏈執行和交付以及談判條款和所有你所期望的事情。

As I think about this, for me, the biggest opportunities for us right now, one is continuing to focus on building the intimacy with those hyperscale customers through that team. And two is really the portfolio. And I think if you look at just the progress that we're now disclosing in the second quarter with a book-to-bill that's above that and an award that's not in the second quarter, I think we're making good progress. We need to continue to gear our products and portfolios to exactly what those hyperscalers are looking for and then continue to work with them on a very close and intimate basis. And I think we've made progress. There's still work to do.

當我想到這一點時，對我來說，我們現在最大的機會就是繼續專注於透過團隊與那些超大規模客戶建立親密關係。第二是投資組合。我認為，如果您只看我們現在在第二季度披露的進展情況，其中訂單出貨比高於該數字，並且第二季度沒有授予獎項，我認為我們正在取得良好的進展。我們需要繼續調整我們的產品和組合，以滿足超大規模企業的需求，然後繼續與他們進行非常密切的合作。我認為我們已經取得了進展。仍有工作要做。

And obviously, we're coming from a position of not having as much exposure there as you rightfully noted. So we're in a bit of a challenger mode, and that also requires just investment in time, as I think I commented on last quarter.

顯然，正如您所說，我們的曝光度並不高。因此，我們處於一種挑戰者模式，這也需要時間投入，正如我在上個季度評論的那樣。

Okay. Thanks. And just a quick follow-up. I mean, the area that we're hearing a lot about expansions from big US telcos is in their fiber build programs. Is that something you see accelerating into 2026, where these large announcements that have been made by the two largest US carriers to increase fiber builds as something Nokia can directly address?

好的。謝謝。這只是一次快速的跟進。我的意思是，我們經常聽到美國大型電信公司宣布擴張其光纖建設計畫。您是否認為這一趨勢會在 2026 年加速發展？屆時，美國兩大業者將宣布增加光纖建設，而諾基亞能否直接解決這個問題？

Yes. So this is a place where we have a very healthy portfolio as you rightfully pointed out, Richard. And I think the other comment I would make is really encouraged by the announcement. I think it's very positive sign around the Big Beautiful Bill in the US there was an act into law earlier this month, that there's going to be continued investment. And I'm also cautiously optimistic that there's going to be investment in Europe as well.

是的。因此，正如你正確指出的那樣，我們的投資組合非常健康，理查德。我認為我要說的另一點是，這項聲明確實鼓舞了我。我認為這是有關美國「大美麗法案」的非常積極的信號，該法案於本月初成為法律，表明將繼續進行投資。我也謹慎樂觀地認為歐洲也會有投資。

I think for us, this is two things. One is, obviously, opportunity for accelerating growth with our core OLT portfolio, the operator line terminals, but also opportunity for us to really think about innovation, how can we continue to help these customers. And back to my macro comments, I think it's -- I'm also hearing from customers that we have opportunity to partner with them in a more complete solution area in this space. And that's part of why I commented that we're investing in innovation in this area.

我認為對我們來說，這是兩件事。顯然，我們有機會利用核心 OLT 產品組合（營運商線路終端）加速成長，同時也有機會真正思考創新，思考如何繼續幫助這些客戶。回到我的宏觀評論，我認為——我也聽到客戶說我們有機會與他們合作，在這個領域提供更完整的解決方案。這就是我評論說我們正在投資該領域的創新的原因之一。

Thanks, Richard. We'll take our next question from Fredrik Lithell from Handelsbanken.

謝謝，理查。我們將回答 Handelsbanken 的 Fredrik Lithell 提出的下一個問題。

I have one. We saw yesterday, AT&T came with their report, and they talked about their CapEx for the coming years. And we also know Trump's Big Beautiful Bill Act. And it seems like operators in the US are getting some tax advantages here. Can you talk a little bit about what you see there on the CSP place, if that will be a driver for you? Thank you.

我有一個。我們昨天看到，AT&T 提交了他們的報告，並談到了未來幾年的資本支出。我們也知道川普的「美麗大法案」。而且看起來美國的業者在這裡獲得了一些稅收優惠。您能否稍微談談您在 CSP 方面看到的情況，這是否會成為您的驅動力？謝謝。

Yeah. And I think, Fredrik, I just answered this, but absolutely, we're optimistic about this. I think anything that's invested -- it's enabling investment in infrastructure is a positive for us and really encouraged by the comments out of some of our major customers in the US, including specifically AT&T, where we're a key supplier today.

是的。我認為，弗雷德里克，我剛剛回答了這個問題，但絕對的是，我們對此持樂觀態度。我認為任何投資——它能夠促進基礎設施的投資，這對我們來說都是積極的，並且我們在美國的一些主要客戶的評論確實鼓舞了我們，特別是 AT&T，我們目前是其主要供應商。

But having said that, I think that doesn't mean we can sit on our hands. We have to invest in innovation, which is why I made the comments.

但話雖如此，我認為這並不意味著我們可以袖手旁觀。我們必須投資創新，這就是我發表評論的原因。

Did you have a follow-up, Fredrik?

你有後續消息嗎，弗雷德里克？

Yeah, maybe a follow-up. If you could sort of expand a little bit on Europe, it looked quite healthy in the quarter. Is it really broad-based? Or could you sort of take three drivers behind the good momentum you saw in Europe?

是的，也許是後續行動。如果您能稍微擴大一下歐洲的情況，您會發現本季歐洲的情況看起來相當健康。它真的具有廣泛的基礎嗎？或者您可以藉鏡您在歐洲看到的良好勢頭，帶領三位車手前進？

Yeah. Hi. This is Marco. And we actually saw a quite broad-based development in Europe in all businesses, and it was quite healthy and welcomed as well, considering that Europe has been a little bit muted in the past. And of course, we hope that we can see some more development in Europe going forward, just like Justin mentioned that, hopefully, the fiber investments also in Europe will take off more. But also the whole macroeconomic environment would give some improvement here.

是的。你好。這是馬可。我們實際上看到歐洲所有業務都出現了相當廣泛的發展，考慮到歐洲過去的發展略顯沉悶，這種發展也相當健康和受歡迎。當然，我們希望未來歐洲能有更多發展，就像賈斯汀提到的那樣，希望歐洲的光纖投資也能有更大的成長。但整個宏觀經濟環境也會有所改善。

Thanks, Fredrik. We'll take our next question from Ulrich Rathe from Bernstein. Ulrich, please go ahead.

謝謝，弗雷德里克。我們將回答伯恩斯坦公司的 Ulrich Rathe 提出的下一個問題。烏爾里希，請繼續。

I wanted to ask about the guidance revision two days ago. Just to clarify, so you are halfway through the year. But I know that the range was still EUR500 million as it was at the beginning of the year. So does this mean uncertainties have increased quite materially, doubled essentially, or is there any other reason to keep the range?

前兩天想問指導修改的情況。只是為了澄清一下，所以你已經過了今年的一半。但我知道，範圍仍然和年初一樣，為 5 億歐元。那麼，這是否意味著不確定性大幅增加，基本上翻了一番，或者有其他理由保持這個範圍？

And then in this context also, why did you not just indicate the lower end of the prior range, but actually lower the midpoint of the range because the range was pretty wide? The downside sort of fits in that. And you could have just said it's now at the low end of the original range. A bit more explanation, that would be helpful.

那麼在這種情況下，為什麼你不只是指出先前範圍的下限，而實際上卻降低了範圍的中點，因為範圍相當寬？缺點就在於此。你也可以說它現在處於原始範圍的低端。再多解釋一下，那將會很有幫助。

So Ulrich, thank you for that. A couple of comments. So first of all, if you go back to Q1, Marco and I both highlighted that we -- given the onetime charges we had in MN and then the tariff in Q2, which largely played out as expected, the EUR20 million to EUR30 million that we called out, we thought we'd be at the we thought that the top end of the range would be challenging. And then obviously, now we've incorporated a full year look on tariffs and then obviously, this currency shift, significant EUR90 million of it in operational with the impact of venture funds. So with all of that in play, we felt it was prudent to lower the range as we said.

所以，烏爾里希，謝謝你。一些評論。首先，如果回顧第一季度，馬可和我都強調，考慮到我們在 MN 的一次性收費以及第二季度的關稅，這些收費基本上符合預期，我們所說的 2000 萬歐元至 3000 萬歐元，我們認為我們會處於這個範圍的最高端，這將是一個挑戰。顯然，現在我們已經將全年的關稅情況納入考量，顯然，這種貨幣轉變，其中 9000 萬歐元的營運支出受到風險基金的影響。因此，考慮到所有這些因素，我們認為降低範圍是明智之舉。

What I would highlight is -- what I'd highlight in addition to that is that, underlying it, I think we feel pretty good about operations because what you probably noted is we did not actually call down an impact from the onetime charge in mobile. And I think that actually probably underscores a little bit of optimism outside of currency and tariffs, which we just felt that it was not prudent to assume we could absorb and still meet the guidance range.

我想強調的是——除此之外，我想強調的是，從根本上來說，我認為我們對運營感覺很好，因為您可能已經註意到，我們實際上並沒有受到移動一次性收費的影響。我認為這實際上可能強調了貨幣和關稅之外的一點樂觀情緒，我們只是覺得，假設我們能夠吸收並仍然滿足指導範圍是不明智的。

Did you have a follow-up, Ulrich?

你有後續消息嗎，烏爾里希？

No, just to come back to part of the question. Thank you for that answer. But why is the range still EUR500 million when you have six months now reported?

不，只是回到問題的一部分。謝謝你的回答。但是，既然已經報告了六個月，為什麼範圍仍然是 5 億歐元？

Yeah. Maybe just another point I'll make, and I'll let Marco comment, is in the second -- obviously, if you look at our first half versus second half and particularly in Q4 -- other than '23 and probably '20, which disruption from COVID in '23, we had a significant shift in CapEx on the Mobile Network side. If you look at the business, we're historically very back-end loaded.

是的。我可能還要指出的另一點是，我讓馬可評論一下，那就是在第二季度——顯然，如果你看看我們的上半年和下半年，特別是第四季度——除了 2023 年和 2020 年，2023 年受到 COVID 的干擾，我們在行動網路方面的資本支出發生了重大變化。如果你看一下我們的業務，你會發現我們歷來都十分注重後端業務。

And as we talked about, we had expectation this quarter that we'd see more demand from India and Mobile Networks that did not happen. So we feel very back-end loaded, and we want to be balanced and disciplined in our forecast because so much is in the second half.

正如我們所討論的，我們原本預計本季印度和行動網路的需求會增加，但這一預期並未實現。因此，我們感覺後端負擔很重，我們希望在預測中保持平衡和嚴謹，因為下半年有很多事情要做。

Marco, anything you want to add there?

馬可，您還有什麼要補充的嗎？

Yeah, just to add a wall that we are still a little bit on the flying when it comes to tariffs. So now we have assumed situations today. But as we all know, that we don't exactly know how these tariffs will land in the end. And that's why we want to keep the range a little bit wider. So we have flexibility there.

是的，只是要增加一道牆，當談到關稅時，我們仍然有點不知所措。所以現在我們已經假設了今天的情況。但眾所周知，我們並不確切知道這些關稅最終會如何實施。這就是為什麼我們希望將範圍擴大一些。因此，我們有靈活性。

Thanks, Ulrich. We'll take our next question from Sami Sarkamies from Danske Bank. Sami, please go ahead.

謝謝，烏爾里希。我們將回答丹麥銀行的薩米‧薩卡米斯 (Sami Sarkamies) 提出的下一個問題。薩米，請繼續。

Could you provide a bit of color on Network Infrastructure performance in Q2? And how do you expect things to develop during third and fourth quarter for NI? When we look at Q2, we see a bit weak growth at IP and Optical, combined with gross margin weakness.

您能否介紹一下第二季度網路基礎設施的表現？您預計 NI 第三季和第四季的情況會如何發展？當我們看第二季時，我們發現 IP 和光學的成長有點疲軟，而且毛利率也較低。

Sami, thanks. A couple of comments from my end. I think, first of all, if you look at us against our US peers, obviously, we're showing constant currency. There's a benefit that you have to also consider for currency tailwinds that they're reporting. So that's one balance that we didn't enjoy.

薩米，謝謝。以下是我的幾點評論。我認為，首先，如果你將我們與美國同行進行比較，顯然，我們的貨幣是恆定的。您還必須考慮他們所報告的貨幣順風帶來的好處。所以這是我們不喜歡的一種平衡。

The other thing I would just highlight, and we talked about this, was we had a bit of a bit of a shortfall due to supply chain constraints and an increasing demand environment. I'll make two comments on that. We would have expected to double -- just on that alone, on a constant currency basis, we would have expected double-digit growth and we fulfilled that demand to a more consistent historical level.

我想強調的另一件事，也是我們討論過的事情，就是由於供應鏈限制和不斷增長的需求環境，我們出現了一些缺口。對此我發表兩點評論。我們原本預計會翻倍——僅憑這一點，以固定匯率計算，我們預計會實現兩位數的增長，而且我們滿足了這一需求，達到了更為一致的歷史水平。

Second comment I would make is, even with that, we'd have a strong book-to-bill. And then again, that's without the award that I touched on in my comments. So we feel quite good about the opportunity in terms of the second half. But again, this is largely driven off of what we see is an increasing mix in hyperscale and AI data center customers.

我要說的第二點是，即便如此，我們的訂單出貨比仍然很高。再說一次，這還不包括我在評論中提到的獎項。因此，我們對下半年的機會感到非常樂觀。但同樣，這很大程度上是由於我們看到超大規模和人工智慧資料中心客戶數量的不斷增加。

Did you have a follow-up, Sami?

薩米，您有後續消息嗎？

Maybe a quick one. You talked about the need to have a more integrated fast-moving leader in Nokia. Can you elaborate on this a bit further? And will you be communicating related changes in the near term?

也許很快。您談到諾基亞需要一位更俱全面性、快速發展的領導者。能進一步詳細說明一下嗎？您會在近期內公佈相關變更嗎？

Yeah. So we announced changes today around a single functional organization. Maybe the one I didn't touch on is explicitly, but we shared a few weeks back with the team is in response to customer feedback, we also announced -- or reinforced the position of the executive account manager. So let in each of the businesses today, we have specialist sales forces. But we had -- when we made the change a couple of years ago, we did not have we did not have a top accounts function. So we've built a little bit of that capability.

是的。因此，我們今天宣布了圍繞單一職能組織的變革。也許我沒有明確提到，但幾週前我們與團隊分享了根據客戶回饋的訊息，我們也宣布或加強了執行客戶經理的職位。所以今天在每個業務中，我們都有專業的銷售團隊。但是，當我們幾年前做出改變時，我們並沒有頂級帳戶功能。因此，我們已經建立了一些這樣的能力。

I think this is really important because our customers are not organized by unified by product line. And while there are differences in each of our product groups, and they're important. And they're important not only because they touch areas of technology we invest in the business model and how we monetize the technology, think of core versus Mobile Network with radio and RAN versus Optical and IP, let alone broadband and fiber access networks. Well, that's important. It's also important to understand that our customers are thinking about things on a more integrated basis because they're also considering their customers who are -- they are -- many of our customers are increasingly addressing them in a more integrated manner.

我認為這非常重要，因為我們的客戶並不是按照統一的產品線來組織的。儘管我們的每個產品組都存在差異，但這些差異很重要。它們之所以重要，不僅是因為它們涉及我們投資的技術領域、商業模式以及我們如何將技術貨幣化，想想核心網路與具有無線電和 RAN 的行動網路、光纖和 IP，更不用說寬頻和光纖接入網路了。嗯，這很重要。同樣重要的是要理解，我們的客戶正在以更全面的方式思考問題，因為他們也在考慮他們的客戶——我們的許多客戶越來越多地以更全面的方式解決這些問題。

And then strategically, from a technology road map perspective, we need to be thinking about it end-to-end. And if you think about things like security, obviously, platforms and services, AI and automation, there's clear opportunities. And I've heard that from many of our customers, both strategically and tactically, and that's all very important. So a better service for customers, number one.

然後從策略上講，從技術路線圖的角度來看，我們需要從端到端地考慮它。如果你考慮安全性、平台和服務、人工智慧和自動化等方面，你會發現明顯的機會。我從許多客戶那裡聽說了這一點，無論是從戰略上還是戰術上，這都非常重要。因此，為客戶提供更好的服務是第一位的。

And then underneath that, I think if you look at some of the industry players, certainly, some of our partners, I spent time studying our partners as well. And if you look at some of our partners that have announced continued operating leverage opportunities, both using AI for their operations. Many of them are focused on productivity and agility as the key North Stars. And so for us, I feel like it's similar that we need to have that kind of mindset of functional excellence.

然後在此之下，我想如果你看看一些行業參與者，當然還有我們的一些合作夥伴，我也花時間研究了我們的合作夥伴。如果你看看我們的一些合作夥伴，他們已經宣布繼續利用營運槓桿機會，都在使用人工智慧進行運作。他們中的許多人都將生產力和敏捷性作為關鍵的北極星。所以對我們來說，我覺得我們需要有這種追求卓越的思考方式。

And so we talked about this quite a bit as a leadership team and made the decision that this was the right step for the company, a consistent operating model across the functions and a mindset around excellence so that we can improve agility and unlock operating leverage.

因此，我們作為領導團隊對此進行了大量討論，並決定這是公司的正確舉措，即在各個職能部門之間建立一致的營運模式，並樹立卓越的思維模式，以便我們能夠提高敏捷性並釋放營運槓桿。

Just building on what Justin said, we believe that it's important that all the businesses will have the P&L responsibility. And our ambition is not to increase the headquarters. If we want to do something, it's actually decreased the number -- the cost level of headquarters, just to be clear here as well.

基於賈斯汀所說，我們認為所有企業都應承擔損益責任，這一點很重要。我們的目標並不是擴大總部。如果我們想做點什麼，實際上就是降低總部的成本水平，這裡也要明確一點。

Thanks, Sami. We'll take our next question from Simon Leopold from Raymond James. Simon, please go ahead.

謝謝，薩米。我們將回答雷蒙德詹姆斯公司的西蒙利奧波德提出的下一個問題。西蒙，請繼續。

So Justin, you've been at the firm now for roughly 100 days and you've talked a little bit about sort of priorities. But I guess what I'd like to get a sort of understanding of here is, having had sort of this period to learn and adjust and you've talked about some organizational shifts, how do you characterize your priorities going forward versus what you thought when you first took the job and started?

賈斯汀，您現在已經在公司工作大約 100 天了，您已經談了一些優先事項。但我想在這裡我想要了解的是，經過這段時間的學習和調整，並且您談到了一些組織變革，與您剛開始工作時的想法相比，您如何描述您未來的優先事項？

Yeah. Thanks, Simon. I think a few -- probably a few key learnings and maybe I'll talk about them across customers, technology and then operational and financial execution. I think, first of all, from a customer perspective, I think there's a real opportunity to partner and to co-innovate with our customers. And certainly -- and obviously, every customer has a slightly different strategy and value position and how they compete. But there -- I think there's been a number of conversations that I've been really encouraged about the opportunity to be innovating with our customers in a way that perhaps we haven't.

是的。謝謝，西蒙。我認為有幾個——可能是幾個關鍵的經驗教訓，也許我會從客戶、技術以及營運和財務執行的角度來談論它們。我認為，首先，從客戶的角度來看，這是一個與客戶合作、共同創新的真正機會。當然——顯然，每個客戶的策略、價值定位和競爭方式都略有不同。但是——我想，我們已經進行過多次對話，我真的很受鼓舞，因為我們有機會與客戶一起進行創新，而我們可能還沒有這樣做過。

On the technology side, look, I think what's important here is we have a lot of great technology and great people in the organization, particularly within our engineering and R&D teams. I think what we have opportunity to do is continue to be better members in the tech ecosystem. And what I mean by that is partner externally, think outside in, and collaborate more with what's happening in tech and across the industries that we play in.

從技術方面來看，我認為這裡重要的是我們組織中擁有許多優秀的技術和優秀的人才，特別是在我們的工程和研發團隊中。我認為我們有機會繼續成為技術生態系統中更好的成員。我的意思是，與外部合作，從外部思考，並根據科技領域和我們所處的行業的情況進行更多的協作。

And then I'll make the other comment on just focusing and not only the comments I made at the top around mobile and fixed access networks transport and data center. But also as you think about in the stack, where does it make sense to partner versus where does it make sense to invest in core technology.

然後，我將就重點發表另一條評論，而不僅僅是我在上面圍繞行動和固定接入網路傳輸和資料中心發表的評論。但是，當您在堆疊中思考時，在哪裡合作才有意義，在哪裡投資核心技術才有意義。

Last comment I'll make is just around financials and operations. And I think this is maybe the thing I haven't emphasized in the comments I just made on the functions that Marco and I touched on is that specifically, I think we have an opportunity also to be more predictable and more productive. And I think that's one of the objectives I have is that is not only to drive growth but to drive a level of predictability and growth because obviously, when you look back historically, as you all well know, we haven't been as predictable as certainly we would expect ourselves to be.

我最後要說的是財務和營運方面的問題。我認為這也許是我在剛才對馬可和我談到的功能所做的評論中沒有強調的事情，具體來說，我認為我們也有機會變得更加可預測和更有效率。我認為我的目標之一是不僅要推動成長，還要推動一定程度的可預測性和成長，因為顯然，當你回顧歷史時，正如大家所知，我們並沒有像我們期望的那樣可預測。

As a follow-up -- yes, please. At the end of June, there were some press reports suggesting that Nokia might be taking some actions to reduce headcount and to do some cost cutting. I know it sounds like a little bit of reorganizational efforts on your part, but it doesn't sound like there were any major initiatives. Could you update us on really what you're thinking about in terms of any initiatives around staffing cost structure that might be related to those press reports? Thank you.

作為後續行動——是的，請。6月底，有媒體通報諾基亞可能會採取一些措施來裁員並削減成本。我知道這聽起來像是你們所做的一些重組努力，但聽起來並不像有什麼重大舉措。您能否向我們介紹一下，您對與這些新聞報道相關的人員成本結構方面的舉措有何看法？謝謝。

Yeah. Thanks, Simon. I'll just make a couple of comments there. I think, first of all, we had a major restructuring program in '23 that we announced that we're still executing. So I think that's important to understand, and we set some targets around that and obviously a range around the restructuring charges at that time. We're still within that point of execution of that program. So we're still within the window there.

是的。謝謝，西蒙。我只想在此發表幾點評論。我認為，首先，我們在 2023 年有一個重大重組計劃，我們宣布我們仍在執行該計劃。所以我認為理解這一點很重要，我們圍繞這一點設定了一些目標，顯然也為當時的重組費用設定了一個範圍。我們仍然處於該計劃的執行階段。所以我們仍然處於這個視窗期內。

Second comment I would make is that I'm not -- having been in this situation before, I don't think going forward, our objective should be to announce a big program but also -- but much more building the muscle and the capability around driving productivity and operating leverage as a discipline. So there's nothing new to update today on our restructuring program. But in addition, I think if you look at best practice, it will be around making announcements around continuing the productivity. And I think you'll see that in our results over time versus me telling you it's going to happen.

我想說的第二點是，我以前也遇到過這種情況，我不認為我們的目標應該是宣布一個大項目，而應該更多地圍繞提高生產力和經營槓桿來建立力量和能力。因此，今天我們的重組計劃沒有什麼新消息可以更新。但除此之外，我認為如果你看一下最佳實踐，它將圍繞繼續提高生產力做出聲明。我認為隨著時間的推移，您會從我們的結果中看到這一點，而不是我告訴您這將會發生。

Marco, do you want to?

馬可，你想嗎？

No, I think just what you've just said several times, is continuous improvement is something that we have to have in our genes. And this is something that every part of the company has to work on that thesis as well. And this is something that we will focus on very much and hopefully see improvements in our efficiency and productivity in the company.

不，我認為正如您剛才多次提到的，持續改進是我們與生俱來的本能。公司的每個部門也都必須為此而努力。這是我們非常關注的事情，希望看到公司效率和生產力的提升。

Thanks, Simon. We'll take our next question from Rob Sanders at Deutsche Bank. Rob, please go ahead.

謝謝，西蒙。我們將回答德意志銀行的羅布桑德斯提出的下一個問題。羅布，請繼續。

Justin, can you discuss your view of the Mobile Networks business? I mean is this a business where you're okay being relatively subscale and trading water? Or do you have strong ambitions to build back scale and recover share in 6G? I guess another way of asking this question is, relative to your 5% of sales at hyperscaler led, how much of your R&D budget is going to go towards hyperscalers? Because I'm just trying to see -- trying to understand how you're going to orient the business going forward. Thanks.

賈斯汀，您能談談您對行動網路業務的看法嗎？我的意思是，這是一個規模相對較小並且進行水交易的行業嗎？或者您有強烈的願望在 6G 中重新擴大規模並恢復份額？我想，提出這個問題的另一種方式是，相對於超大規模市場主導的 5% 的銷售額，您的研發預算中有多少將用於超大規模市場？因為我只是想看看——試著了解你將如何引導業務向前發展。謝謝。

Thank you. So first of all -- sort of two questions there. So let me -- you're asking, I think an implicit capital allocation question as well. So let me answer the Mobile Networks business. I think, first of all, I believe this is a unique and highly strategic asset.

謝謝。首先 — — 有兩個問題。所以讓我——你問的是，我認為也是一個隱含的資本配置問題。那麼讓我來回答一下行動網路業務。我認為，首先，我相信這是一項獨特且具有高度策略性的資產。

There's four scale players in the world. Two are in the West, us and Ericsson. What I think is important, and I've said this consistently, is I don't think it's just about mobile networks. I understand how we report, but I think you have to look at mobility co, every one of the scale players, including the two, and the two competitors we have out of China have the core networks business, the Mobile Networks assets, radios and RAN and a robust IP portfolio, and I think you have to look at the business in totality even as you report the segments. And so I think, first of all, that's really critical.

世界上有四位規模以上的球員。其中兩家在西方，一家是美國，另一家是愛立信。我認為重要的是，而且我一直這麼說，我認為這不僅僅與行動網路有關。我理解我們的報告方式，但我認為你必須看看行動公司，每一個規模參與者，包括這兩家公司，以及我們在中國的兩個競爭對手，都擁有核心網路業務、行動網路資產、無線電和 RAN 以及強大的 IP 產品組合，我認為你必須從整體上看待業務，即使在報告各個部分時也是如此。所以我認為，首先，這非常關鍵。

Second, I would say, when you look at our customer base, it's very clear to me. And I hear from my customers that we have opportunity to do more with them.

其次，我想說，當你看看我們的客戶群時，我就會很清楚這一點。我從客戶那裡聽說我們有機會與他們進行更多合作。

And then I would just say, third, as I've said before, I believe the AI super cycle is going to drive a refreshed wave of investment in this space. It's not there today, but I think we have to be -- we have to have a view of -- over the longer term or whether it's smart classes, drones, autonomous vehicles, obviously, innovation that I think we'll see even in the traditional mobile handset business. There's going to be a set of innovations that drive opportunity for us and opportunity for our customers. And this is where also being a thoughtful partner to our customers, as I touched on earlier, is going to be important.

然後我想說，第三，正如我之前所說，我相信人工智慧超級週期將推動這一領域的新一波投資浪潮。目前還沒有，但我認為我們必須——我們必須有一個長遠的眼光——無論是智慧教室、無人機、自動駕駛汽車，顯然，我認為我們甚至會在傳統的行動手機業務中看到創新。一系列創新將會為我們和我們的客戶帶來機會。正如我之前提到的，在這一點上，成為客戶貼心的合作夥伴也很重要。

In terms of capital allocation, I think what's happened in NI, and I would just emphasize this is one of the reasons I think Infinera was a very, very good acquisition for us is the market has shifted to cloud and AI driving the investment and the innovation curve on Fixed Networks. It used to be a lot of this innovation was out of transport networks that's now more and more transport networks and data center driving the left edge, whether you think about ethernet switching speeds or obviously optical technology, what's happening with pluggables inside the data center, which we just talked about. The innovation curve has shifted. So by default, our R&D has to be invested in that areas.

在資本配置方面，我認為 NI 發生的事情，我只想強調這是我認為 Infinera 對我們來說是一個非常非常好的收購的原因之一，因為市場已經轉向雲端和人工智慧，推動了固定網路的投資和創新曲線。過去，許多創新都來自傳輸網絡，而現在，越來越多的傳輸網絡和數據中心推動著左邊緣的發展，無論您考慮以太網交換速度還是明顯的光學技術，數據中心內部可插拔設備的情況如何，我們剛才談到了。創新曲線已經轉變。因此，我們的研發預設必須投資於這些領域。

But it's not just in that. I think if you look at the hyperscalers and public cloud, they set an expectation for security. They set an expectation for ease of use and deployment of technology and performance. And so there's a number of areas where I think we -- as we're targeting those customers in NI, we have opportunity to enable them to enable advantages for us across our customer base in that portfolio. And that's been reconfirmed to some of my customer conversations.

但事情不僅如此。我認為如果你看看超大規模和公有雲，他們就會對安全性設定一個期望。他們對技術和性能的易用性和部署性設定了期望。因此，我認為我們在很多領域——當我們瞄準北愛爾蘭的客戶時，我們就有機會讓他們為我們在該投資組合中的整個客戶群帶來優勢。我在與一些客戶的交談中再次證實了這一點。

And then back to core and mobile, if you look at the portfolio on the mobile side, many of those cloud players and those hyperscalers are partners for us on mobile. We've been out -- we talked about announcements in our core business as we've moved much more to a cloud-first strategy for core in terms of the tech stack, but also in terms of where we run those platforms. And I think over time, we're going to see some of those things move even into RAN. And I think we need to be a partner there.

然後回到核心和行動領域，如果你看一下行動端的投資組合，你會發現許多雲端運算公司和超大規模企業都是我們在行動領域的合作夥伴。我們已經公開談論過我們的核心業務公告，因為我們在技術堆疊方面已經更多地轉向了核心的雲端優先策略，而且在我們運行這些平台的位置方面也是如此。我認為隨著時間的推移，我們會看到其中一些東西甚至進入 RAN。我認為我們需要成為那裡的合作夥伴。

So as I look at capital allocation, that's one element. As I think about these partners as being broad partners across our business, I think there's significant opportunity.

因此，當我考慮資本配置時，這是一個因素。當我將這些合作夥伴視為我們業務範圍內的廣泛合作夥伴時，我認為其中蘊藏著巨大的機會。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Rob?

羅布，你有什麼後續行動嗎？

Just quickly on the fixed wireless access rollout in India. How long can this last in terms of being a tailwind for your business? Thanks.

簡單介紹一下印度的固定無線接取部署。這對於您的業務的順風作用能持續多久？謝謝。

Yeah, you want to talk about this, Marco?

是的，你想談談這個嗎，馬可？

Yeah. Thank you. I would say that many operators globally are looking into opportunities to utilize fixed wireless access whenever they -- especially areas where they see that the mobile networks is not utilized fully, which is usually outside of the city centers. And there's one way for them to capture more opportunities and customer base. And if and when there would be any fiber connection later, then they have already that customer connection, and they can just swap all of that customer from fixed-price access into fiber customer.

是的。謝謝。我想說的是，全球許多業者都在尋找機會利用固定無線接入，特別是在他們發現行動網路沒有充分利用的地區，這些地區通常是在市中心之外。有一種方法可以幫助他們獲得更多的機會和客戶群。如果以後有任何光纖連接，那麼他們已經擁有該客戶連接，他們可以將所有客戶從固定價格接入轉換為光纖客戶。

And different operators see these opportunities coming different timelines as well. But right now, we've seen that Indian operators have been quite active and seeing this opportunity to capture the customer base, and that's why we're seeing the tailwind there.

不同的營運商對這些機會的到來也有不同的時間表。但目前，我們看到印度營運商非常活躍，並看到了這個吸引客戶群的機會，這就是我們在那裡看到順風的原因。

I would just add -- just to add on that front. I think when we look at this, there's a couple of opportunities here. I think, first of all, broadband access, wireless or fiber, are opportunities for growth for us.

我只是想補充一下——只是想補充一下這方面的內容。我認為，當我們審視這個問題時，這裡存在一些機會。我認為，首先，寬頻接入，無論是無線還是光纖，都是我們的成長機會。

Second, there's opportunities on the operator side. And you think about that as OLT as I touched on in my comments, but also, it's actually innovation and services and technology we can deliver at the radio layer. And we see that not only in India, but in North America as well, but there's probably more we can do there.

第二，營運商方面的機會。正如我在評論中提到的那樣，您可以將其視為 OLT，但它實際上是我們可以在無線電層提供的創新、服務和技術。我們不僅在印度看到了這種情況，在北美也看到了這種情況，但我們在那裡可能可以做更多的事情。

And then I would just say, third, obviously, it's hard to predict exactly where the demand will go, and Marco rightfully pointed out that there's usually a balance between how much wireless access you want to provide before you want to lay fiber. But I think the good thing -- the unique thing for us is we can potentially benefit on both sides.

然後我想說，第三，顯然，很難準確預測需求將會走向何方，馬可正確地指出，在鋪設光纖之前，通常需要平衡您想要提供的無線存取量。但我認為，好的方面——對我們來說獨特的方面是我們有可能使雙方受益。

Thanks, Rob. We'll take our next question from Sandeep Deshpande from JPMorgan. Sandeep, please go ahead.

謝謝，羅布。我們將回答摩根大通的 Sandeep Deshpande 提出的下一個問題。Sandeep，請繼續。

My question is on Network Infrastructure. In the Network Infrastructure business, you are seeing this very strong growth in the Fixed Network business. I mean -- and you've talked about that in earlier questions. I want to go back to the Optical business, where you've highlighted the 6% organic growth. I mean, given the strength in the hyperscalers, why is that business not growing stronger at this point? Or is it that you need to expand your footprint and the customer base more?

我的問題是關於網路基礎設施的。在網路基礎架構業務中，您會看到固定網路業務的強勁成長。我的意思是——您在之前的問題中已經談到了這一點。我想回到光學業務，您強調了 6% 的有機成長。我的意思是，考慮到超大規模企業的實力，為什麼該業務目前沒有變得更強大？還是您需要進一步擴大您的業務範圍和客戶群？

And following up on that, where are you in terms of the routing and switching in the hyperscalers and in terms of expanding your footprint with the hyperscalers?

接下來，您在超大規模資料中心的路由和交換方面以及在擴大超大規模資料中心的覆蓋範圍方面處於什麼位置？

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Sandeep. I think a couple of things. So on Optical, again, I think if you look at that largely, pre-acquisition, Nokia was not penetrated heavily in Optical within the AI and cloud space. With Infinera, we've gained footprint there.

是的。謝謝。謝謝，桑迪普。我想到幾件事。因此，關於光學，我認為，如果你從很大程度上看，在收購之前，諾基亞在人工智慧和雲端領域的光學滲透率並不高。借助 Infinera，我們在那裡取得了影響力。

But we're behind our competition in terms of market share penetration. I believe we have opportunity. That's why things like what we announced with the 800 gig pluggable platforms are important because that gets us back to being competitive. And you'll note that we were behind in that space. So I think the work that David and the team have done to start to catch up there is very important, and we need to continue to do work to make sure we hit the -- if you hit future product intercepts.

但在市佔率滲透率方面，我們落後於競爭對手。我相信我們有機會。這就是為什麼我們宣布的 800 千兆可插拔平台等產品如此重要，因為它讓我們重新恢復競爭力。你會注意到我們在這個領域落後了。因此，我認為 David 和他的團隊為迎頭趕上所做的工作非常重要，我們需要繼續努力，以確保我們能夠實現目標——如果您能夠實現未來的產品攔截。

Second thing I would comment on there is answer your question on IP and switching and routing is we've had some traction in routing, I think more work to do in that space, switching less traction. But obviously, this is a place of focus for us, but we're -- traditionally, we haven't made this a priority. It's one of the things I think David and the team are looking at to see how much potential is there, and we'll give you more of a fulsome view on what we believe we can do there as we come to Capital Markets Day.

我想評論的第二件事是回答你關於 IP、交換和路由的問題，我們在路由方面取得了一些進展，我認為在這個領域還有很多工作要做，交換方面的進展較少。但顯然，這是我們關注的重點，但我們——傳統上，我們並沒有把它當作優先事項。我認為這是大衛和他的團隊正在研究的事情之一，以了解那裡有多少潛力，在資本市場日到來之際，我們將為您提供更全面的觀點，告訴您我們認為我們可以在那裡做些什麼。

Thanks, Sandeep, did you have a quick follow-up?

謝謝，Sandeep，你有什麼後續嗎？

No, that's it. Thank you.

不，就是這樣。謝謝。

Thanks, Sandeep. We'll take our next question from Felix Henriksson from Nordea. Felix, please go ahead.

謝謝，桑迪普。我們將回答來自 Nordea 的 Felix Henriksson 的下一個問題。菲利克斯，請繼續。

Thanks for taking my question. It's on the Q3 outlook where you flagged somewhat stable operating margin sequentially, partly reflecting a bit weaker business mix. Is this reflective of just MN, which you highlighted? Or do you also see little mix in the other segments? And also, do you have any visibility on mix improvement for the fourth quarter of the year?

感謝您回答我的問題。在第三季的展望中，您指出營業利潤率環比保持穩定，這在一定程度上反映了業務組合略微疲軟。這是否僅反映了您所強調的 MN？或者您也看到其他細分市場也存在少量混合？此外，您對今年第四季的組合改善情況有何展望？

Yeah. Thank you, Felix. I would say if you look normal seasonality that we've seen in the past years as well, we have had quite strong quarter four. And seasonally, we believe that we see this year as well came back more than normal seasonality. And when it comes to second half, we believe that we have a stronger performance in the second half compared to first half.

是的。謝謝你，菲利克斯。我想說，如果你觀察過去幾年我們所見過的正常季節性，你會發現第四季我們的表現相當強勁。從季節角度來看，我們相信今年的復甦幅度將超過正常季節性。談到下半年，我們相信下半年的表現會比上半年更強勁。

And also, if you look in the past, I think, EUR8 to EUR10 seasonally between quarter two to quarter three, the sales has been flat. And this is something that is also quite typical seasonally in the company. But also, we want to highlight what comes to quarter three, specifically is that in Mobile Networks, we see less software compared to quarter and that will have, of course, impact on the margins as well in quarter three.

而且，如果你回顧過去，我認為，第二季到第三季之間的季節性銷售額為 8 歐元到 10 歐元，持平。這也是公司季節性的典型現象。但同時，我們想強調第三季的情況，特別是在行動網路領域，我們看到的軟體數量與上一季相比有所減少，這當然也會對第三季的利潤率產生影響。

Thanks, Felix. Did you have a follow-up?

謝謝，菲利克斯。你有後續行動嗎？

Yeah. Just a quick one on the cost base in technologies because I guess if we play around with the numbers, it seems like your EUR1.1 billion EBIT guidance for technologies of the year assumes a step down in OpEx for the back half of the year, assuming that your sort of sales run rate keeps at the current level. So could you just discuss that a little bit why should we expect lower OpEx for technologies in the second half of the year?

是的。我只想快速地問一下技術成本基礎，因為我想如果我們玩弄這些數字，似乎您今年對技術的 11 億歐元息稅前利潤指導假設下半年的營運支出會下降，假設您的銷售運行率保持在當前水平。那麼，您能否稍微討論一下，為什麼我們應該預期下半年技術的營運支出會降低？

Yeah. Thanks, Felix. I think the key thing here is OpEx is expected to be flat. We have some optimism on what we'll do in the second half in terms of revenue.

是的。謝謝，菲利克斯。我認為這裡的關鍵是營運支出預計會持平。我們對下半年的收入表現抱持樂觀態度。

Thanks, Felix. We'll take our next question from Sébastien Sztabowicz from Kepler Cheuvreux. Sébastien, please go ahead.

謝謝，菲利克斯。我們將回答 Kepler Cheuvreux 的 Sébastien Sztabowicz 提出的下一個問題。塞巴斯蒂安，請繼續。

Yes. Have you seen any kind of fully orders affecting any of your businesses over the past few months? Or you think the order intake has been tracking clearly a normal evolution? That would be the first question.

是的。在過去的幾個月裡，您是否看到任何影響您的業務的全面命令？還是您認為訂單量一直呈現正常變化趨勢？這是第一個問題。

And second one is linked to competition, because your Nordic competitor was blaming stronger price competition in the RAN market over the past few months. Have you seen any kind of change in pricing dynamic or competitive landscape over the past few months in Mobile Networks? Thank you.

第二個原因與競爭有關，因為您的北歐競爭對手將此歸咎於過去幾個月 RAN 市場價格競爭加劇。在過去的幾個月裡，您是否看到行動網路的定價動態或競爭格局發生了任何變化？謝謝。

Yeah. So I think on your first question, again, adjusting for -- if you look at it on a constant currency basis, I think we feel pretty good about the forecast. I think it's pretty consistent. Nothing in terms of pull-ins. I think probably more what we're -- what Marco and I are looking at is just given some of the news, particularly, which is a question really about the US, is there more opportunity, though that feels like it's more a '26 and beyond thing based on some of the announcements that have been made.

是的。因此，我認為，對於你的第一個問題，再次進行調整——如果你以恆定貨幣為基礎來看待它，我認為我們對預測感覺相當良好。我認為它相當一致。就吸引人而言，什麼都沒有。我認為，我們和馬可正在關注的更多的是一些新聞，特別是關於美國的問題，即是否存在更多機會，儘管根據已經發布的一些公告，這感覺更像是 26 年及以後的事情。

And then in terms of your second question around pricing, I wouldn't say there's anything that we see that's abnormal at this point. As you know, the market regionally has very different dynamics. So in terms of pricing dynamics or specific competitive situations. It very much depends on the individual opportunity. I think we feel pretty good about what we see in terms of the market.

關於您關於定價的第二個問題，我認為目前我們沒有發現任何異常情況。如您所知，不同區域的市場動態差異很大。因此就定價動態或特定競爭情況而言。這很大程度取決於個人的機會。我認為我們對所看到的市場情況感覺相當良好。

Thanks, Sébastien. We'll take our next question from Jakob Bluestone from BNP Paribas Exane. Jakob, please go ahead.

謝謝，塞巴斯蒂安。我們將回答法國巴黎銀行 Exane 的 Jakob Bluestone 提出的下一個問題。雅各布，請繼續。

Just coming back to the sort of phasing, as you've mentioned a few times, it's a very Q4 loaded year, I guess if you can, first of all, just explain a little bit more why is it quite so heavily skewed into Q4. And if you can maybe also help us understand just around your confidence, is the midpoint of that guide covered out of your existing order book? Or how far away are you from sort of -- in terms of your orders?

回到分階段的問題，正如您多次提到的那樣，今年是第四季度業務負荷很大的一年，我想，如果您可以的話，首先，請稍微解釋一下為什麼第四季度的業務負荷如此嚴重。如果您能幫助我們了解您的信心，那麼該指南的中點是否包含在您現有的訂單簿中？或者就您的訂單而言，您距離目標還有多遠？

Yeah. Thank you. I can start and then Justin can build on. When it comes to the seasonality in this industry is pretty much driven actually how customer behavior is and how they see what needs they do have when they are investing in their networks. And usually, towards the latter part of the year in quarter four as well, if they see that there's some opportunities for them to do any upgrades or additional investments in the CapEx frame that they have, that's when they usually come and ask us to do. And this has been the pattern in the market for quite a long time.

是的。謝謝。我可以開始，然後賈斯汀可以繼續。說到這個行業的季節性，很大程度上取決於客戶的行為，以及他們在投資網路時如何看待自己的需求。通常，在第四季度的下半年，如果他們發現有機會在現有的資本支出框架中進行升級或額外投資，那麼他們通常會來要求我們這樣做。而這種模式在市場上已經持續了相當長一段時間。

And then when it comes to -- in general, I would say that different sectors behave a little bit differently. So this is more the CSP side. Then when it comes to hyperscaler side, they are perhaps more focusing on gradual investments and not always thinking like CSPs that quarter four would be very heavy. But as we said, only 5% of our sales is in hyperscalers today, that's why we are quite dependent on the cycles that CSPs have.

然後說到——總的來說，我想說不同行業的行為略有不同。所以這更多的是 CSP 方面。那麼，當談到超大規模方面時，他們可能更注重逐步投資，而不是像 CSP 那樣總是認為第四季度會非常繁忙。但正如我們所說，目前我們只有 5% 的銷售額來自超大規模企業，這就是為什麼我們非常依賴 CSP 的週期。

I can mention when it comes to order coverage. It depends also between different businesses. When you go to a project business like mobile networks, usually, your order book is longer and you have more coverage a couple of quarters ahead, while when you are in more or shorter-term business like in network infrastructure, then your coverage is lower. But I would say that we don't see any deviations from the normal pattern that we normally have in this year.

當談到訂單覆蓋範圍時我可以提及。這也取決於不同的企業。當你從事行動網路等專案業務時，通常你的訂單簿會更長，並且在未來幾個季度你會有更多的覆蓋範圍，而當你從事網路基礎設施等更多或更短期的業務時，你的覆蓋範圍就會較低。但我想說的是，我們沒有看到任何與今年正常模式不同的情況。

Thanks, Jakob. We'll take our next question from Emil Immonen from Carnegie. Emil, please go ahead.

謝謝，雅各。我們將回答卡內基的埃米爾·伊莫寧 (Emil Immonen) 提出的下一個問題。艾米爾，請繼續。

Just a couple more. Maybe on the order book, could you go into a little bit of detail on what the order book looks like as a whole in Network Infrastructure and how it has developed year on year and Q-on-Q?

再來幾個吧。也許在訂單簿上，您能否詳細介紹一下網路基礎設施的訂單簿整體情況以及其同比和環比發展情況？

Yeah. I think just a couple of comments on this. We obviously don't break this down in detail. But overall, group book-to-bill was well above 1. Optical was well above 1. And as I touched on, even would have remained well above 1 had we fulfilled all of the orders. We would historically have fulfilled based on traditional conversion rates.

是的。我想對此僅提出幾點評論。我們顯然不會詳細地分解這一點。但整體而言，集團訂單出貨比遠高於1。光學遠高於1。正如我所提到的，如果我們完成了所有訂單，那麼這個數字仍然會遠高於 1。從歷史上看，我們一直根據傳統的轉換率來實現目標。

And then as I touched on the 800 gig order -- 800 gig award that we disclosed, that order has not been booked. So I think -- and again, as you look at the overall funnel, I think we're -- we believe it's quite healthy. But having said that, as I touched on earlier, we have a lot of work to do to continue to grow and scale in hyperscale because as Marco highlighted, we're at 5% of the overall revenue mix. So there's much more opportunity for us.

然後，當我談到我們披露的 800 千兆訂單 - 800 千兆獎勵時，該訂單尚未預訂。所以我認為——再說一次，當你看整個漏斗時，我認為我們——我們相信它非常健康。但話雖如此，正如我之前提到的，我們還有很多工作要做，才能繼續在超大規模領域發展壯大，因為正如 Marco 所強調的那樣，我們只佔整體收入的 5%。因此，我們擁有更多機會。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Emil?

艾米爾，你有什麼後續行動嗎？

Yeah. Thanks for that. Then on Mobile Networks, I just wanted to know, how do you think about the segment in terms of what is needed for that return to revenue growth?

是的。謝謝。那麼關於行動網絡，我只是想知道，您如何看待該領域需要什麼才能恢復收入成長？

Yeah. I think first of all, obviously, this has been a challenging business for us over the last few years. Second of all, the market is flat, right? If you look at the market that's addressable to us, and I'm really focused on geos where we can actually sell, we get to participate.

是的。我認為首先，顯然，過去幾年這對我們來說是一項充滿挑戰的業務。其次，市場平穩，對嗎？如果你看我們可觸及的市場，我真正關注的是我們可以實際銷售的地理位置，我們可以參與其中。

The market is largely flat. That's largely because data consumption is somewhat flat. Subscriber growth has flattened out. So I mean the end customer metrics are there. I think what we shared at MWC or the team shared at MWC was that we had -- we're starting to see recovered share from what we had lost in terms of cell sites. From my perspective, what I'm focused on is, to your point, is overall revenue growth. I think right now, though, it's about making sure we preserve market share in a flat market and then looking at where the opportunities are for us to gain share.

市場基本穩定。這主要是因為數據消耗比較平穩。用戶成長已趨於平穩。所以我的意思是最終客戶指標就在那裡。我認為我們在 MWC 上分享的內容或團隊在 MWC 上分享的內容是——我們開始看到在基地台方面失去的份額有所恢復。從我的角度來看，我關注的是整體收入成長。不過，我認為現在我們要確保在平穩的市場中保持市場份額，然後尋找我們可以獲得份額的機會。

Thanks, Emil. We'll take our next question from Francois Bouvignies from UBS. Francois, please go ahead.

謝謝，艾米爾。我們將回答瑞銀集團的 Francois Bouvignies 提出的下一個問題。弗朗索瓦，請繼續。

I have a quick question on the strategy just in this more integrated end-to-end maybe. Look at -- did that in the past, Rajeev, at the time when you acquired Alcatel. The idea was to do an end-to-end. And then Pekka came, and then realized that maybe it was not a good solution. So we went back to best of breed. And now you seem to go back again to the integrated part end-to-end.

我對這個更整合的端到端策略有一個簡單的問題。看看──拉吉夫，你以前收購阿爾卡特的時候也這麼做過嗎？這個想法是實現端到端的。然後佩卡來了，然後意識到這可能不是一個好的解決方案。因此我們又回到了最佳品種。現在您似乎又回到了端到端的整合部分。

So how different is it from the previous work of Nokia, because what would make it work this time? Is there anything you can see in the past about what has been done and how you can be differently? Just trying to understand this strategy, given it didn't work in the past.

那麼這與諾基亞之前的做法有何不同？是什麼讓它這次成功呢？您是否能從過去的經驗中看出一些不同之處？只是想了解這個策略，因為它過去沒有起作用。

Yeah. Thank you, Francois. So first of all, I'd say a few things. One is, in my career, I've worked in many different models. And I quite -- spent a lot of time understanding this and probably studied it pretty deeply in terms of Ion companies and others.

是的。謝謝你，弗朗索瓦。首先，我想說幾件事。一是，在我的職業生涯中，我曾經嘗試過許多不同的模式。我花了很多時間來理解這一點，並且可能對 Ion 公司和其他公司進行了相當深入的研究。

There is no perfect model. It's really about being customer and marketing oriented and then being focused on core innovation. For me, there's a couple of things that are really important. And I don't -- I think it's also important not to say we're going back to something that was there before. That's not the case. What's important here, and I think what we're building on is BG accountability is very important.

沒有完美的模型。這實際上是以客戶和行銷為導向，然後專注於核心創新。對我來說，有幾件事非常重要。我不認為——我認為同樣重要的是不要說我們要回到以前的狀態。事實並非如此。這裡最重要的是，我認為我們正在建立的 BG 問責制非常重要。

The businesses have different cycles. They have different investment areas. CNS is very focused on cloud native software, building a fabric and platform. We talk about APIs. That's very different than fixed broadband business, where we're focused on OLT customers and in places where it makes sense, you're obviously selling consumer premise equipment. Very, very different businesses.

不同的企業有不同的周期。他們的投資領域不同。CNS 非常注重雲端原生軟體、建構結構和平台。我們討論 API。這與固定寬頻業務非常不同，在固定寬頻業務中，我們專注於 OLT 客戶，並且在有意義的地方，您顯然會銷售消費者終端設備。非常非常不同的業務。

What's important is that we have the accountability around that. The other thing is our customers are one customer set. I think sometimes from a model perspective, you can get caught up in having too many -- so focused on the portfolio, you missed that the customer wants to engage with you in one way because there's one procurement organization. There's one group CTO. There's one customer portfolio that they're engaging with. And I think we need to orient to our customers, and that's why we're making a bit of the balance on the customer-facing side.

重要的是我們要對此負起責任。另一件事是我們的客戶是一組客戶。我認為有時從模型的角度來看，你可能會陷入太多的困境 - 如此專注於投資組合，你錯過了客戶希望以某種方式與你互動，因為只有一個採購組織。有一位集團首席技術長。他們正在與一個客戶組合合作。我認為我們需要以客戶為中心，這就是為什麼我們在面向客戶方面做出一些平衡。

On the functional excellence piece, I think I covered this in my comments, the steps that we took in the past were the right steps at the time, and they've delivered value for the company. The reality is, as we look ahead, we felt like there were a different set of steps we needed to take and spending time with the team, I made the decision that we needed to really drive consistency across the functions because again, as I'll point out, when I came in, we had different operating models depending on the function. So the reintegration of MBS, the alignment to the functions to a consistent model, I think, is going to be valuable. I think it's better for our people, and I think it will ultimately unlock operating leverage. And those are really my two key decisions in this.

關於功能卓越部分，我想我在評論中已經提到了這一點，我們過去採取的措施在當時是正確的，並且為公司帶來了價值。事實是，當我們展望未來時，我們覺得我們需要採取一系列不同的步驟，並花時間與團隊合作，我決定我們需要真正推動各個職能之間的一致性，因為正如我指出的那樣，當我加入時，我們根據職能採用不同的營運模式。因此，我認為，MBS 的重新整合、功能與一致模型的協調將是有價值的。我認為這對我們的員工更有利，而且我認為這最終將釋放經營槓桿。這確實是我在這方面做出的兩個關鍵決定。

So I would spend -- obviously, I study history. I'm a student of history, of what's happened, studied other models. But I wouldn't say that we're dropping the prior model for the model that was two generations ago. I don't think that's the case at all. I think we're taking a step in evolution that's setting us up to be better positioned. And early feedback from customers, and candidly, from our people has been very positive around this more integrated approach since -- particularly on the go-to-market side.

所以我會花費——顯然，我研究歷史。我是一名歷史系的學生，研究過發生過的事情，也研究過其他的模型。但我不會說我們會放棄先前的模型而採用兩代之前的模型。我認為根本不是這樣。我認為我們正在邁出進化的一步，這將使我們處於更有利的地位。自此以後，來自客戶和我們員工的早期回饋對於這種更加一體化的方法一直非常積極——特別是在行銷方面。

Did you have a quick follow-up?

你有快速跟進嗎？

No, that's fine. Conscious of time. Thank you.

不，沒關係。有時間意識。謝謝。

Thank you all. That is our last question for today. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. I would like to remind you that during the call today, we have made a number of forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may, therefore, differ materially from the results we currently expect. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website. Thank you all for joining us.

謝謝大家。這是我們今天的最後一個問題。女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。我想提醒大家，在今天的電話會議中，我們做了一些涉及風險和不確定性的前瞻性陳述。因此，實際結果可能與我們目前預期的結果有重大差異。造成這種差異的因素既有外在因素，也有內在因素。我們已在 20-F 表年度報告的風險因素部分中確定了此類風險，該報告可在我們投資者關係網站上查閱。感謝大家的參與。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。