艾司摩爾 (ASML) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, everyone and welcome to this press conference of the Q4 and full year 2024 results at ASML. My name is Monique Mols, I am responsible for Media Relations at ASML. You are here at the auditorium in Veldhoven, our headquarters, and we are here to talk you through our numbers, our developments, what we see in the future.

大家早安，歡迎參加 ASML 舉行的第四季和 2024 年全年業績新聞發布會。我叫 Monique Mols，負責 ASML 的媒體關係。您來到了我們總部維爾德霍芬的禮堂，我們在這裡向您介紹我們的數據、我們的發展以及我們對未來的展望。

We have a couple of journalists here in the room, thank you for traveling to Veldhoven, very nice to see you, it's always nice to see people in person. But we also have some people that are watching online and a very warm welcome to those watching from Asia and a happy new year and hope the year of the snake will bring good luck and fortune to you. So thank you very much for joining in this special day, we appreciate the effort you're making.

我們房間裡有幾位記者，感謝您來到費爾德霍芬，很高興見到您，親自見到人們總是很高興。但我們也有一些人在網路上觀看，我們非常熱烈地歡迎來自亞洲的觀眾，祝大家新年快樂，希望蛇年能帶給你們好運和好運。非常感謝您參加這個特別的日子，我們感謝您所做的努力。

(Event Instructions)

（活動須知）

I'm not going to do the presentation for all the numbers, and I realize I forgot my clicker, wait a minute. I have some help, we've got the CEO of ASML, Roger Dasen (sic - CFO of ASML), who will -- who loves forward-looking statements. So Roger Dassen will talk you through the numbers and you've seen him before and this year for the first time our CEO, Christophe Fouquet will be here to talk you through the development and our progress in 2024.

我不會對所有數字進行演示，並且我意識到我忘記了答題器，請稍等。我有一些幫助，我們有 ASML 的執行長羅傑·達森（Roger Dasen，原文如此，ASML 的財務長），他會——他喜歡前瞻性陳述。Roger Dassen 將向您介紹這些數字，您以前和今年第一次見過他，我們的執行長 Christophe Fouquet 將在這裡向您介紹 2024 年的發展和進展。

So with that I'd like to welcome Christophe to the stage. Thank you and I hand this over to you.

因此，我想歡迎 Christophe 上台。謝謝你，我把這個交給你了。

Thank you very much, Monique. Good morning, everyone. Roger and I are very happy to welcome all of you here at ASML to spend a bit of time to reflect on 2024, look at what we expect in 2025 and beyond, and of course take some of your questions.

非常感謝你，莫妮克。大家早安。Roger 和我非常高興地歡迎 ASML 的各位花點時間回顧 2024 年，看看我們對 2025 年及以後的期望，當然也回答你們的一些問題。

So a bit more than a year ago, we defined 2024 as a transition year and this has definitely been a transition year and there's a couple of things I will be stressing in my presentation which were very, very important in 2024. The first one is AI. I think you have all noticed how AI became important for this industry. I think there is not one day without all of you talking about AI. Sometimes in very optimistic terms, sometimes more recently in more fearful terms, but AI is definitely a major major change for this industry and we'll talk about that.

因此，一年多前，我們將 2024 年定義為過渡年，這絕對是一個過渡年，我將在演講中強調幾件事，這些事情在 2024 年非常非常重要。第一個是人工智慧。我想你們都已經注意到人工智慧對於這個行業是如何變得重要的。我想你們每一天都在談論人工智慧。有時用非常樂觀的術語，有時用更可怕的術語，但人工智慧絕對是這個行業的重大變革，我們將討論這一點。

And the second transition, you know that ASML is a technology company. I think you know that our success has come from the fact that we have tried to always stay one step ahead when it comes to technology. And 2024 also has been an important year, a very rich year in technology at ASML, preparing also for this technological transition we are going to see happening starting in 2025 with 2 nanometer logic but also some of the needs of the AI chips, high bandwidth memory, high power computers. So this has been also a major focus for 2024.

第二個轉變，你知道ASML是科技公司。我想您知道我們的成功來自於我們在技術方面始終保持領先一步。2024 年也是重要的一年，是 ASML 技術非常豐富的一年，也為我們將從 2025 年開始看到的 2 奈米邏輯技術轉型做好準備，同時也滿足了人工智慧晶片、高頻寬的一些需求記憶體、高功率計算機。所以這也是2024年的一個重點。

Roger of course is going to talk about the number, about '24, '25, but I think you already realize that we finished the year very strongly. This is a new record year for ASML. This is a very strong record Q4 quarter. We are very happy of course with those results and I cannot not use this opportunity to thank the entire ASML team everywhere in the world for all the hard work and the commitment basically to help us achieve those numbers.

羅傑當然會談論這個數字，關於'24，'25，但我想你已經意識到我們非常強勁地結束了這一年。今年是 ASML 創下新紀錄的一年。這是一個非常強勁的第四季創紀錄季度。當然，我們對這些結果感到非常高興，我不能不利用這個機會感謝世界各地的整個 ASML 團隊為幫助我們實現這些數字所做的辛勤工作和承諾。

You have noticed also we start 2025 on a good note. Roger will spend some time on that but again so far a pretty good day. So let me go a bit into some of the key trends in this industry. I already mentioned AI. We talked about AI also in our capital market day in November and what we explain is that in this industry we used to talk about semiconductor everywhere because today any major application requires semiconductor.

您還注意到，我們以良好的開局迎接 2025 年。羅傑會花一些時間在這上面，但到目前為止又是美好的一天。讓我來談談這個行業的一些主要趨勢。我已經提到過人工智慧。我們在 11 月的資本市場日也談到了人工智慧，我們解釋的是，在這個行業中，我們過去到處都在談論半導體，因為今天任何主要應用都需要半導體。

Today, more and more we believe that we will be talking about AI everywhere. So semiconductor will be everywhere but AI will be everywhere too. And the reason for that is that the opportunity that AI represent for the entire economy, for the entire humanity is huge and we are just at the beginning of that.

今天，我們越來越相信我們將在任何地方談論人工智慧。因此，半導體將無所不在，但人工智慧也將無所不在。原因是人工智慧為整個經濟、整個人類帶來了巨大的機遇，而我們才剛開始。

What you see today is people starting to invest basically in hyperscale computer in order to develop their product and those product will come over time to eat our market. This is really a very, very important change.

您今天看到的是，人們開始基本上投資於超大規模計算機，以開發他們的產品，隨著時間的推移，這些產品將蠶食我們的市場。這確實是一個非常非常重要的改變。

What you see here also is the number, the impact potentially on GDP. We talk about $1 trillion which is huge. So this will also mean that we can expect over time that a lot of company will want to play in this field. So I know some of you maybe were surprised in the last few days that a new company suddenly come and want to compete. Well, I think we have to get used to that because this is such an opportunity that there will be more and more player to grab this opportunity.

你在這裡看到的也是數字，也就是對 GDP 的潛在影響。我們談論的是 1 兆美元，這是一個巨大的數字。因此，這也意味著我們可以預期，隨著時間的推移，許多公司都會想涉足這一領域。所以我知道你們中的一些人可能對過去幾天突然出現一家新公司並想要參與競爭感到驚訝。嗯，我認為我們必須習慣這一點，因為這是一個這樣的機會，將會有越來越多的玩家抓住這個機會。

And we also explained in November that for AI to succeed cost has to go down and energy efficiency has to go down. We also explained that this will come only with innovation, and I can promise you that in our industry any innovation that has ever reduced cost always created more volume and more opportunity and again we will see a lot of that happening hopefully in the next few months.

我們也在 11 月解釋說，人工智慧要成功，成本必須下降，能源效率必須下降。我們還解釋說，這只有透過創新才能實現，我可以向您保證，在我們的行業中，任何降低成本的創新總是會創造更多的銷售和更多的機會，我們將在接下來的幾個月裡再次看到很多這樣的事情發生。

So what does it mean for us? AI is going to be everywhere, and everyone everywhere means two things. You will see two types of different products: the very advanced one, the one that we talk about every day which are going to require a very high technology; but also what we call mainstream semiconductor because you need sensor to feed basically AI with data.

那麼這對我們意味著什麼呢？人工智慧將無所不在，而每個人無所不在意味著兩件事。你會看到兩種不同的產品：一種是非常先進的，我們每天都在談論的，需要非常高的技術；另一種是我們每天談論的，需要非常高的技術。也是我們所說的主流半導體，因為你需要感測器來為人工智慧提供數據。

And what we see happening on our market is that both the advanced technology segment is growing. We see more and more appetite in fact for advanced technology in logic, in the RAM. This is of course a good thing for ASML but we see also a major increase in the volume of semiconductor overhaul. So this is mainstream so there's a bit less sexy so people talk less about it but this is of course a very very important part of our business.

我們看到市場上發生的情況是，先進技術領域正在成長。事實上，我們看到人們對 RAM 中的先進邏輯技術的興趣越來越大。這對ASML來說當然是件好事，但我們也看到半導體檢修量大幅增加。所以這是主流，所以不太性感，所以人們很少談論它，但這當然是我們業務中非常重要的一部分。

So this will continue to drive our entire portfolio. And as I will explain later, that's also why we are continuing to invest basically in all those technology advanced one like EUV, less advanced one like DUV.

因此，這將繼續推動我們的整個投資組合。正如我稍後將解釋的那樣，這也是為什麼我們基本上繼續投資所有先進技術（例如 EUV）和較不先進的技術（例如 DUV）。

If we look at the number we still talk about $1 trillion opportunity 2030. There's a lot of debate on how big this could be. Is it bigger than $1 trillion? How much bigger? I think we are not really entering into this debate. This is already a big number. We're going to drive that and of course our business will scale with whatever this number will scale with but we're still looking of course as a very significant opportunity.

如果我們看一下這個數字，我們仍然談論 2030 年 1 兆美元的機會。關於這個規模有多大，存在著許多爭論。是否超過 1 兆美元？大了多少？我認為我們並沒有真正進入這場辯論。這已經是一個很大的數字了。我們將推動這一目標，當然我們的業務將隨著這個數字的擴大而擴大，但我們仍然將其視為一個非常重要的機會。

The only thing we don't know exactly today is how this is going to happen. So we see the investment of everyone in AI. We don't know exactly how this will play out into applications. So when do you start yourself to buy mobile phone with AI, computer with AI, car with AI, et cetera, et cetera. So that's the part I think we have to still understand. We're going to watch what's happening this year, next year. And this is why we are also still in our case sometime, people say a bit cautious on the long-term view because we don't have yet all the understanding again on how the AI opportunity will really play out in the coming years.

今天我們唯一不確切知道的是這將如何發生。所以我們看到大家對人工智慧的投資。我們並不確切知道這將如何在應用程式中發揮作用。那麼你什麼時候開始購買人工智慧手機、人工智慧電腦、人工智慧汽車等等。所以這就是我認為我們仍然必須理解的部分。我們將關註今年、明年會發生什麼。這就是為什麼我們有時仍然處於這種情況，人們說對長期觀點有點謹慎，因為我們還沒有完全了解人工智慧機會在未來幾年將如何真正發揮作用。

Now this being said, I think you have seen this slide in the past. This is showing basically the EBIT, total EBIT of our ecosystem. All the people that are being playing -- investing in this industry. This is huge and this has been growing more than 13% year on year for many, many years.

話雖如此，我想您過去已經看過這張投影片。這基本上顯示了我們生態系統的息稅前利潤、總息稅前利潤。所有正在參與投資這個行業的人。這是一個巨大的數字，多年來一直以超過 13% 的速度成長。

And what does it say? This says that basically this industry has the means to continue to fuel innovation. In fact, you most probably don't have any other industry that has this kind of means to keep driving innovation.

它說了什麼？這說明這個產業基本上有能力繼續推動創新。事實上，很可能沒有其他產業擁有這種持續推動創新的手段。

So that's why we always show that because this is still a good news. There is means for innovation and as you see it here, the return is very good. And people are investing on not only what's happening next year or the year after, they invest for what's going to happen in 5 and 10 years. And as you know, we do the same in ASML because we have to look basically not only to 2025, we have to look even already at what may happen in the next decade.

這就是為什麼我們總是表明這一點，因為這仍然是一個好消息。創新是有手段的，正如你在這裡看到的，回報非常好。人們不僅投資明年或後年發生的事情，還投資未來 5 年和 10 年後發生的事情。如你所知，我們在 ASML 也做了同樣的事情，因為我們基本上不僅要著眼於 2025 年，我們甚至還要著眼於未來十年可能發生的事情。

So this is good news. If I summarize a bit the future, it's bright. We're still very bullish. I think if anything AI has strengthened the opportunity for this business. So AI is going to be a key driver starting next year. But on the short term, it's also create a shift and that's what we have also experienced in 2024.

所以這是個好消息。如果我總結一下未來，那就是光明的。我們仍然非常看好。我認為人工智慧增強了這項業務的機會。因此，從明年開始，人工智慧將成為關鍵驅動因素。但從短期來看，這也會帶來轉變，這也是我們在 2024 年所經歷的。

Some of our customers have done extremely well with AI. In fact so well that they cannot produce enough chips to supply to their customer. And those customers have been driving our own demand, and they will continue to do that in 2025. But you have also seen in 2024 that some of our customers were not doing as well because they were not yet basically on this AI opportunity. This has created a bit of -- this change also of dynamic last year.

我們的一些客戶在人工智慧方面做得非常好。事實上，他們無法生產足夠的晶片來供應給客戶。這些客戶一直在推動我們自身的需求，他們將在 2025 年繼續這樣做。但你也看到，在 2024 年，我們的一些客戶表現不佳，因為他們基本上還沒有抓住這個人工智慧機會。這在去年也產生了一些動態變化。

The second thing, AI has a couple of challenges. Cost, energy efficiency. To improve that innovation is needed. One of the innovation is Moore's law and we expect an acceleration of Moore's law. We also expect that the market will have a higher product mix towards advanced logic and advanced DRAM. And all of that is good for ASML. All of that will contribute to increase as we explained in November the need for the most advanced lithography machine EUV, DUV. And this will contribute to basically increase the size of our business.

第二件事，人工智慧面臨一些挑戰。成本、能源效率。為了改進這一點，需要創新。其中一項創新是摩爾定律，我們預期摩爾定律會加速發展。我們也預計市場將有更多面向先進邏輯和先進 DRAM 的產品組合。所有這些對 ASML 來說都是好事。正如我們在 11 月解釋的那樣，所有這些都將有助於增加對最先進光刻機 EUV、DUV 的需求。這將有助於從根本上擴大我們的業務規模。

This is why when we look at 2030 our expectation in terms of revenue is that we will be somewhere between EUR44 billion and EUR60 billion. In terms of gross margin, we are looking at a range of 56 -- between 56% and 60%. So those are good number again resulting from this opportunity.

這就是為什麼當我們展望 2030 年時，我們對營收的預期是在 440 億歐元到 600 億歐元之間。就毛利率而言，我們的預期範圍是 56——56% 到 60% 之間。因此，這些都是這次機會帶來的好數字。

Now you know that I'm an engineer still. I still spend quite some time on technology because technology at the end of the day is what feed our success. This is what prepare basically the opportunity for the next few years. And as I said in my introduction, 2024 has been a great year for technology. We have released many important product on EUV.

現在你知道我仍然是工程師。我仍然花相當多的時間在技術上，因為技術歸根結底是我們成功的動力。這基本上就是為未來幾年的機會做準備。正如我在介紹中所說，2024 年對科技來說是偉大的一年。我們在EUV上發布了很多重要的產品。

So we talked quite a bit about the latest low NA product, the NXE:3800 which provide almost 40% improvement on productivity. That tool was released to customer end of last year. We've been shipping quite a few of those tool and those system are now being qualified. They will be very important part of the ramp of the advanced technology in the next few months. So this is very important. We have demonstrated the full specification at ASML. Major step again in terms of performance. And we are working now with customer to mature the platform.

因此，我們對最新的低 NA 產品 NXE:3800 進行了許多討論，該產品的生產率提高了近 40%。該工具已於去年年底向客戶發布。我們已經交付了相當多的這些工具，而這些系統現在正在通過資格認證。它們將成為未來幾個月先進技術發展的非常重要的一部分。所以這一點非常重要。我們已經在 ASML 展示了完整的規範。在性能方面又邁出了重大一步。我們現在正在與客戶合作以使該平台成熟。

High NA. High NA has been a big news. You know High NA is a program that we started in 2014. So you can imagine that when at the end of Q4, we get our first two customer acceptance. This is a major validation not only of the value of the technology we bring to the customer but also of the investment we have made because this is a million of hours of work, a lot of innovation. And therefore, we are very, very happy that the feedback from our customer on high NA is positive. They like what they see.

高數值孔徑。高 NA 一直是個大新聞。你知道 High NA 是我們在 2014 年啟動的一個計畫。所以你可以想像，在第四季末，我們得到了前兩個客戶的認可。這不僅是對我們為客戶帶來的技術價值的重大驗證，也是對我們所做投資的重大驗證，因為這是一百萬個小時的工作，大量的創新。因此，我們非常非常高興客戶對高 NA 的回饋是正面的。他們喜歡他們所看到的。

And now we're going to work with them to define exactly when, how and in which extent to introduce high NA in the future. But high NA is going to complement very nicely low NA to drive advanced technology manufacturing moving forward.

現在我們將與他們合作，準確定義未來何時、如何以及在多大程度上引入高 NA。但高 NA 將很好地補充低 NA，以推動先進技術製造向前發展。

Now we talk always a lot about EUV. Deep UV remains a very, very important product. Most of the wafer today are exposed today with deep UV. EUV is a very small part of the lithography layers. And you see it here, the number of exposure on deep UV is going to continue to grow between now and 2030. So there also we need innovation. Also because deep UV being a bit of a holder technology, maybe the competition around this product is getting higher.

現在我們總是談論很多 EUV。深紫外線仍然是一個非常非常重要的產品。如今，大多數晶圓都暴露在深紫外線下。EUV 只佔光刻層的一小部分。從現在到 2030 年，深紫外線照射的數量將持續增加。所以我們也需要創新。另外，由於深紫外線是一種固定技術，因此圍繞該產品的競爭可能會越來越激烈。

So we're continuing to invest and here also we come with major innovation. On our KrF product line with the first shipment of the NXT:870B which allow us to get to more than 400 wafer per hour. So giving productivity. Productivity for customer means lower cost. Lower cost means for ASML that the customer will be more willing to work with those tools because they provide a cost advantage.

因此，我們將繼續投資，並且我們也帶來了重大創新。在我們的 KrF 產品線上，首批出貨的 NXT:870B 使我們能夠每小時生產超過 400 片晶圓。所以給予生產力。客戶的生產力意味著更低的成本。對 ASML 來說，較低的成本意味著客戶將更願意使用這些工具，因為它們提供了成本優勢。

And we have also shipped our latest generation of immersion. So immersion if you want is the most advanced deep UV technology before EUV. There also the NXT:2150 was shipped to an advanced DRAM customer opening the era for again higher performance, higher productivity also on this tool.

我們也推出了最新一代的沉浸式體驗。因此，如果您願意，沉浸式技術是 EUV 之前最先進的深紫外線技術。NXT:2150 也被運送給一家先進的 DRAM 客戶，開啟了該工具再次獲得更高性能和更高生產力的時代。

Finally, if you remember a few years ago we started our application business or holistically business. We make still a lot of progress there. We grow the size of this business every year. If you look at the year starting store base, we have more than 1,000 system right now in the field which is of course very significant.

最後，如果您還記得幾年前我們開始了應用程式業務或整體業務。我們在那裡仍然取得了很大進展。我們的業務規模每年都在擴大。如果你看看年初的商店基礎，我們現在在該領域擁有超過 1,000 個系統，這當然非常重要。

But the one thing I like to focus a bit more today is e-beam. If you remember, we acquired HMI a few years ago, Taiwanese company doing e-beam. And the reason for that was to bring fast e-beam technology to the market, what we call multi-beam.

但今天我更想關注的一件事是電子束。如果你還記得的話，我們幾年前收購了HMI，一家做電子束的台灣公司。原因是將快速電子束技術推向市場，也就是我們所謂的多束技術。

And this year, the other big news I would say on technology together with the first customer acceptance for high NA product was the first customer acceptance of our multi-beam product by several customers, which is again a validation of the technology the investment but also the need moving forward of this tool.

今年，我要說的關於技術的另一個重大新聞以及第一個客戶對高數值孔徑產品的認可是第一個客戶接受了我們的多光束產品，這再次證明了技術投資，而且推進該工具的需要。

So you are mostly a bit less familiar with this. But these are also some of the very important technology, important product we are developing for our customer. And we are also very happy to achieve good results on that last year.

所以你大多對此不太熟悉。但這些也是我們正在為客戶開發的一些非常重要的技術、重要的產品。我們也很高興去年在這方面取得了良好的成績。

Now we have to prepare the future with just more than technology. People is a strong focus in ASML. I think that you know when Roger and I look at the assets of the company I think people always come first. Because they are capable year after year to create all those technological miracles in R&D. But also bring them to customer and make sure that customer can really use them in high volume manufacturing.

現在，我們必須不僅僅依靠技術來為未來做好準備。人是 ASML 的重點關注對象。我想你知道，當羅傑和我審視公司的資產時，我認為人永遠是第一位的。因為他們有能力年復一年地在研發領域創造所有這些科技奇蹟。但也要將它們帶給客戶並確保客戶能夠真正在大批量生產中使用它們。

So investing in people remains absolutely a priority for ASML. And we do it differently than we did it in the past. Because we have a long-term view, we invest I would say earlier. So what you see here are a few example. We are getting more and more intern in ASML. So we are opening the doors of ASML to student as early as possible. So that they get an idea a bit of what we are doing. And that you know we make sure that ASML is high on their list when it comes to choose their next job.

因此，投資人才仍然是 ASML 的首要任務。我們的做法與過去有所不同。因為我們有長遠的眼光，所以我們會更早進行投資。您在這裡看到的只是一些示例。我們在 ASML 的實習生越來越多。所以我們儘早向學生敞開ASML的大門。這樣他們就可以了解我們正在做的事情。您知道，當他們選擇下一份工作時，我們會確保 ASML 在他們的名單中名列前茅。

We have been focusing on diversity. We will continue to focus on diversity. We are very happy that over time, the percentage of women in the company has grown. It has been growing every year for the last 10 years. It continues to grow. And in order to do that, we have to work very early on the pipeline. So we have to go basically also to school, university to make sure that right there, women also find an interest in ASML.

我們一直注重多樣性。我們將繼續關注多元化。我們很高興隨著時間的推移，公司中女性的比例增加。過去 10 年來，它每年都在增長。它繼續增長。為了做到這一點，我們必須儘早開始工作。因此，我們基本上也必須去學校、大學，以確保女性也對 ASML 感興趣。

ASML used to be seen as a company that is a bit rough. And you only have guys, engineers walking there. I think this image is changing for good reason. Because this is of course a very open, very interesting place to be for anyone.

ASML曾經被視為一家有點粗暴的公司。那裡只有男人、工程師。我認為這種形象的改變是有充分理由的。因為這當然對任何人來說都是一個非常開放、非常有趣的地方。

And finally, we're reaching out to university. A lot of you, at least the local journalists, are very much aware of the cooperation we have with the TU University in Eindhoven. Many other universities in the Netherlands. But we are also extending that basically to a very global network of universities.

最後，我們將接觸大學。你們中的許多人，至少是當地的記者，都非常了解我們與埃因霍溫工業大學的合作。荷蘭的許多其他大學。但我們也基本上將其擴展到全球大學網路。

There also, it's a way to invest in the future. And I will say a way to support in a broader term the entire industry. Because you understand that not all those students will come to ASML. But they may end up supporting our customer, our suppliers, et cetera, et cetera. And that's also very important. So more and more focus paid on that. I think this is really, really a key element of attention for the leadership in ASML in the recent years.

這也是投資未來的一種方式。我會說一種從更廣泛的角度支持整個行業的方法。因為你知道並不是所有的學生都會來ASML。但他們最終可能會支持我們的客戶、我們的供應商等等。這也非常重要。因此，越來越多的注意力集中在這一點上。我認為這確實是近年來 ASML 領導層關注的關鍵因素。

Extension. We are growing. I want to show you the number for 2030. This is clearly calling to growth. Growth in people. Growth in capacity. And as you know, we are a global company. We have a very strong presence in the Netherlands of course. Where we have the core of R&D. The core for manufacturing. But we also have activity in the US. Elsewhere in Europe, Germany for example. And in Asia.

擴大。我們正在成長。我想告訴你 2030 年的數字。這顯然是在呼喚增長。人的成長。容量增長。如您所知，我們是一家全球性公司。當然，我們在荷蘭擁有非常強大的影響力。我們擁有研發核心。製造的核心。但我們在美國也有活動。在歐洲其他地方，例如德國。在亞洲。

And as we grow, our business, those places will grow with us. So you will see I mean if you drove around for some of you this morning you see that there's still a lot of construction happening here in the campus. You know about our plan of the second campus in Eindhoven. But this also extend again to other part of the world. And this is in preparation to support basically our growth. So still a lot of activity here.

隨著我們的成長，我們的業務以及這些地方也將與我們一起成長。所以你會發現，我的意思是，如果你今天早上開車帶你們中的一些人到處走走，你會發現校園裡仍然有很多建築正在進行。您知道我們在埃因霍溫的第二個校區的計劃。但這也再次延伸到世界其他地區。這是為了基本上支持我們的成長做準備。所以這裡仍然有很多活動。

When we look at our ESG sustainability agenda, I think we started very early on to drive this agenda, long before we had CSRD and all those regulation coming our way. The reason for that is because we believe this was the right things to do. We believe it was important to reduce our energy consumption, reduce our impact on our environment through some of the logistic activity we have.

當我們審視 ESG 永續發展議程時，我認為我們很早就開始推動這項議程，早在 CSRD 和所有這些監管機構出台之前。原因是我們相信這是正確的做法。我們認為，透過我們的一些物流活動減少能源消耗、減少對環境的影響非常重要。

We believe I said it already that our people are at the core of ASML success. We developed basically a lot of activity to make sure they feel well in ASML. And I think that we continue in term of governance to have the ambition to be a leader in this industry. So we want to lead by example.

我們相信我已經說過，我們的員工是 ASML 成功的核心。我們基本上開展了很多活動，以確保他們在 ASML 中感覺良好。我認為我們在治理方面繼續有志成為這個行業的領導者。因此，我們希望以身作則。

So to give you a few example on the environment. We have reduced our EUV consumption per wafer by more than 54% since the first EUV machine which is enormous. And we're still working to get another 40% off in the next few years. So we are actively making sure that the amount of energy we need on the EUV machine to expose a wafer goes down.

所以給你舉幾個關於環境的例子。自從第一台巨大的 EUV 機器以來，我們已將每片晶圓的 EUV 消耗量減少了 54% 以上。我們仍在努力在未來幾年內再享受 40% 的折扣。因此，我們正在積極確保 EUV 機器曝光晶圓所需的能量下降。

We become a bit brave. We first -- we shipped our first DPV system on a boat which I can tell you 10 years ago was out of the question in ASML. But we are learning how to do things differently and create new opportunity. And we shipped our first DPV tool, our first YieldStar system as well. And in the future, we plan to do a lot more than that in coordination with our customers, suppliers, et cetera.

我們變得勇敢一點。首先，我們在船上運送了我們的第一個 DPV 系統，我可以告訴你，這在 10 年前在 ASML 中是不可能的。但我們正在學習如何以不同的方式做事並創造新的機會。我們也推出了第一個 DPV 工具，以及第一個 YieldStar 系統。未來，我們計劃與客戶、供應商等協調，做更多的事情。

On social, so we have a lot of activity with the community. We are very proud of that. More than 57 projects and more coming. We're spending time on housing, on infrastructure projects. Of course here in Brentport but not only. Everywhere we have a strong presence. We believe this is important to do that.

在社交方面，我們與社區進行了許多活動。我們對此感到非常自豪。超過 57 個項目，還有更多項目即將推出。我們把時間花在住房和基礎設施項目。當然是在布倫特波特，但不僅如此。我們在任何地方都有強大的影響力。我們認為做到這一點很重要。

And we're also very happy that our employees are contributing themselves. So we have a strong gift matching program which is getting also quite some success among our employees. And we are very thankful that they do that.

我們也很高興我們的員工做出了自己的貢獻。因此，我們有一個強大的禮品配對計劃，該計劃在我們的員工中也取得了相當大的成功。我們非常感謝他們這樣做。

We skip governance. We get pretty high score on sustainability. I think I'm more hot on what we do than the score we get. But I think the rest of the industry is also recognizing a bit this effort.

我們跳過治理。我們在可持續性方面獲得了相當高的分數。我想我對我們所做的事情比我們得到的分數更感興趣。但我認為業內其他公司也對此努力有所認識。

One last thing to end because I think it's important. This is about again the community. I talked about housing. We try to do more to really, I would say, increase, improve the experience of the people around us. We had many discussions about growth.

最後一件事要結束，因為我認為這很重要。這又是關於社區的。我談到了住房。我想說，我們嘗試做更多的事情來真正增加、改善周圍人們的體驗。我們對成長進行了很多討論。

And one of the things Roger and I believe, the rest of the leadership believe, is that we want to grow but we never want to be a burden for the community. And in order to do that, you have to find the right balance and of course, proactively contribute to make sure that housing, school, infrastructure are available. That's of course discussion that require strong support from local and global governments. So we have those discussions as well. But that remains important.

羅傑和我以及其他領導階層都相信的一件事是，我們希望成長，但我們永遠不想成為社區的負擔。為了做到這一點，你必須找到適當的平衡，當然，也要積極做出貢獻，確保住房、學校和基礎設施可用。當然，這是需要當地和全球政府大力支持的討論。所以我們也進行了這些討論。但這仍然很重要。

Education, STEM. We start very early. That's why you see a picture of very young kids. We believe that you have to start as early as possible to explain children why this is a great world, why this is a positive world, why ASML, why this industry is positively contributing to society, to humanity.

教育、STEM。我們很早就開始了。這就是為什麼你會看到一張很小的孩子的照片。我們相信，你要儘早開始向孩子解釋為什麼這是一個偉大的世界，為什麼這是一個積極的世界，為什麼ASML，為什麼這個行業正在為社會、為人類做出積極的貢獻。

We help also people who are working on other ESG innovation, locally again but also beyond that. And well, you may have seen in our social media also this year we have quite some activity when it comes to employee giving. So we talked about the gift matching program, but we have also a lot of people volunteering basically every day, many hours in order to engage with the community.

我們也為從事其他 ESG 創新的人提供幫助，不僅在本地，而且還包括其他方面。好吧，您可能已經在我們的社交媒體中看到，今年我們在員工捐贈方面也開展了相當多的活動。所以我們討論了禮物匹配計劃，但我們也有很多人基本上每天都做志願者，花很多時間與社區互動。

So this is a bit who we are today. Roger is going to now give you a view of the number. It's also exciting. So with no further delay, I'd like to introduce Roger.

這就是我們今天的樣子。羅傑現在將向您展示該數字。這也很令人興奮。因此，我想立即介紹羅傑。

Thank you, Christophe. It's good to hear the CEO say that numbers are exciting, and they are. And that's what we wanted to share with you.

謝謝你，克里斯托夫。很高興聽到執行長說這些數字令人興奮，事實確實如此。這就是我們想與您分享的。

So Christophe said it. If we look at Q4, the fourth quarter, it was a very strong quarter. And it was a very strong quarter. It was a quarter where I think the company really ran on all cylinders. It was a strong quarter based on the top line. So if you look at net sales, it was a record quarter for ASML, exceeding our guidance from that vantage point.

克里斯托夫就是這麼說的。如果我們看看第四季度，這是一個非常強勁的季度。這是一個非常強勁的季度。我認為這是公司真正全力運作的一個季度。從營收來看，這是一個強勁的季度。因此，如果你看一下淨銷售額，你會發現這是 ASML 創紀錄的季度，超出了我們從這個有利角度的指導。

It was a very strong quarter from a gross margin perspective, particularly held by the fact that we had very strong install-based business. So that was one of the reasons why revenue was up. But it was also an important driver of the gross margin. It was a very strong quarter because we had a very strong order intake of EUR7.1 billion, which is a very good start, I think, for this year. And it's a very strong quarter because we had very significant cash generation in Q4, if only to make the CEO very happy.

從毛利率的角度來看，這是一個非常強勁的季度，特別是因為我們擁有非常強大的安裝業務。這就是收入成長的原因之一。但這也是毛利率的重要驅動因素。這是一個非常強勁的季度，因為我們的訂單量非常強勁，達到 71 億歐元，我認為這對今年來說是一個非常好的開始。這是一個非常強勁的季度，因為我們在第四季度產生了非常大量的現金，即使只是為了讓執行長感到非常高興。

So all in all, I think it's a quarter that ticked all the boxes. And it was a quarter that indeed meant that we could end 2024 as a strong year. If you look at what we said at the beginning of the year, we said, and Christophe made reference to a transition year, we said we expect the business to be approximately similar to what we had in 2023. And indeed, we were able to get a little bit better than 2023 with a top line of EUR28.3 billion, gross margin of 51.3%, also a little bit better than what we expected at the beginning of the year.

總而言之，我認為這個季度符合所有條件。這個季度確實意味著我們可以以強勁的一年結束 2024 年。如果你看看我們在年初所說的話，我們說，克里斯托夫提到了過渡年，我們說我們預計業務將與 2023 年的業務大致相似。事實上，我們的業績比 2023 年好一點，營收為 283 億歐元，毛利率為 51.3%，也比我們年初的預期好一點。

Strong net income, as you see here, EUR7.6 billion, an earnings per share of EUR19.25. And we were able to return EUR3 billion to shareholders, either through dividends or share buybacks. We'll come back to that in a moment. So all in all, I think a pretty strong picture for 2024. And more or less in line and actually a little bit better than what we anticipated at the beginning of the year.

正如您在此處看到的，強勁的淨利潤為 76 億歐元，每股收益為 19.25 歐元。我們能夠透過股利或股票回購向股東返還 30 億歐元。我們稍後會再回到這個話題。總而言之，我認為 2024 年的前景相當強勁。或多或少符合我們的預期，而且實際上比我們年初的預期要好一些。

If you look at the different businesses already, Christophe highlighted some of the key elements in there. If you look at the numbers for EUV, EUV sales, a little bit down, 9% down to EUR8.3 billion, with 44 EUV systems, both NXE and EXE. But also there, it was a transition year. It was a transition year because we did introduce after, you know, 10 years, as Christophe explained, after 10 years of working on high NA, we were able to get the first high NA tool really to the customer, get it installed at the customer and get a customer to accept the tool. So I think that was an important part of the transition.

如果您已經研究過不同的業務，克里斯托夫強調了其中的一些關鍵要素。如果你看 EUV 的數字，你會發現 EUV 銷售額略有下降，下降了 9%，至 83 億歐元，有 44 個 EUV 系統，包括 NXE 和 EXE。但在那一年也是過渡年。這是一個過渡年，因為我們確實在 10 年後推出，正如 Christophe 所解釋的那樣，經過 10 年的高 NA 工作，我們能夠真正為客戶提供第一個高 NA 工具，並將其安裝在客戶並讓客戶接受該工具。所以我認為這是過渡的重要組成部分。

We were able to bring the 3800 into the field and indeed get customers excited about that tool as well. That is a tool that really drives the performance of EUV low NA to the next level. We used to look at an EUV tool with 160 wafers per hour, this one in final configuration gets you to 220 wafers per hour. So also that I think is the biggest step that we made in EUV since the inception in terms of improvement of productivity.

我們能夠將 3800 引入現場，並且確實讓客戶對該工具感到興奮。這是一個真正將 EUV 低 NA 性能提升到新水平的工具。我們曾經考慮過每小時處理 160 片晶圓的 EUV 工具，最終配置中的這款工具可每小時處理 220 片晶圓。因此，我認為這是我們自 EUV 誕生以來在提高生產力方面邁出的最大一步。

So from that vantage point, bringing -- being able to bring that one into the field, I think is a major step as well. So EUV, a little bit down in terms of in terms of total business, but really a transition year that is positioning us very well for the future.

因此，從這個有利的角度來看，我認為能夠將其帶入該領域也是重要的一步。因此，EUV 的總業務量略有下降，但確實是過渡年，為我們的未來做好了準備。

Deep EUV grew a bit, 4% as you see here. And also there we introduced important new products into the market with the 2150, Christophe showed it, and the 870B, the KrF system on the on the NXT platform. Major, major breakthroughs from a technology perspective there.

Deep EUV 成長了一點，如您所見，成長了 4%。在那裡，我們向市場推出了重要的新產品，包括 Christophe 展示的 2150，以及 NXT 平台上的 KrF 系統 870B。從技術角度來看，這是一個重大突破。

Application grew very nicely with 20%, both YieldStar and multibeam in particular, contributing to that growth. And there I think -- and Christophe again mentioned that the fact that we were able to get sign off from multiple customers on multibeam, again, a project that we've been working on for many, many years, I think is a milestone for the for the company.

應用程式成長非常好，成長了 20%，尤其是 YieldStar 和 multibeam，為這一成長做出了貢獻。我認為，克里斯托夫再次提到，我們能夠在多波束上獲得多個客戶的認可，這是我們多年來一直致力於的一個項目，我認為這是一個里程碑為公司。

And finally, install base, growing very, very strongly at 16%. And this is both on the service side and also on the on the upgrade side. So all in all, as I mentioned, 2024, quite in line with what we expected at the beginning of the year and actually exceeding that a little bit.

最後，安裝量成長非常非常強勁，達到 16%。這既是在服務方面，也是在升級方面。總而言之，正如我所提到的，2024 年與我們年初的預期非常一致，而且實際上還超出了一點。

If we don't move to the composition of our of our sales, a few things that immediately you will recognize, immersion very, very strong, you saw it in the growth number for deep UV, but clearly driven by the immersion business, making up for 44% of our system sales.

如果我們不轉向我們的銷售組成，有幾件事您會立即意識到，沉浸感非常非常強，您可以在深紫外線的成長數字中看到它，但顯然是由沉浸式業務推動的，使得佔我們系統銷售額的44%。

Also clear that memory is very strong. And there I think the importance of high bandwidth memory to make AI work, I think is clearly recognized. And I think that filtered through also in the order. So memory, quite well recovered, I would say from 2023.

也清楚記憶力很強。我認為高頻寬記憶體對於人工智慧工作的重要性已經得到了明確的認識。我認為這也按順序進行了過濾。所以記憶恢復得很好，我想說從 2023 年開始。

If you look at the regional mix, obviously, the thing that catches your eye is China, China very strong at 41% already quite strong, I would say in 2023 at 29%. You know the story, we've said it before, all the way through 2022, our order fill rate for China was quite low.

如果你看看地區組合，顯然，吸引你眼球的是中國，中國非常強大，佔 41%，已經相當強大了，我想說到 2023 年將達到 29%。你知道這個故事，我們之前說過，一直到 2022 年，我們在中國的訂單履行率都相當低。

We had an order fill rate for for China of around 40%. So we could only give to China 40% of what they were asking for. So as a result of that, the backlog for China had been filled all the way through 2022 massively. And what you see here is that in '23 and '24, with the capacity expansions that we've been carrying through, we were able to execute on that historically built up backlog.

我們在中國的訂單履行率約為 40%。所以我們只能給中國他們要求的40%。因此，到 2022 年，中國的積壓訂單已被大量填補。您在這裡看到的是，在 23 年和 24 年，隨著我們一直在進行的產能擴張，我們能夠執行歷史上積壓的訂單。

As we mentioned before, we do expect that on a going forward basis, China will go back to more normal percentages of our business. And that means lower 20%. It's what we expect them to contribute to our sales this this year. And that is commensurate with the representation of China in our backlog today. So those are just some of the headlines if you look at the composition of our net sales.

正如我們之前提到的，我們確實預計，在未來的基礎上，中國將恢復到我們業務的更正常百分比。這意味著降低 20%。這是我們期望他們今年為我們的銷售做出的貢獻。這與中國在我們今天積壓的案件中所佔的比例相稱。如果你看看我們淨銷售額的組成，這些只是一些頭條新聞。

I think this gives you a similar picture. Again, it shows very clearly the strength of the memory business after -- which has been nicely building up, I would say, over the past couple of years, but a real spike this year, given the significance of high bandwidth memory for AI.

我認為這給了你類似的畫面。再次，它非常清楚地顯示了內存業務的實力，我想說的是，在過去的幾年裡，內存業務一直在很好地發展，但考慮到高頻寬內存對人工智能的重要性，今年的業務確實出現了飆升。

This gives you the default P&L, if you like for the consolidated statements of operation. And again, as I mentioned before, I think very much in line with 2023. So most of the numbers are quite comparable. Although you would say that -- you would see that on the R&D side, we keep on pushing the pedal to the metal, right. So it's very clear that with all the projects that we have, with the R&D pipeline that we have, with the very strong ambitions that we have also in the medium to long term, and the good ideas that we have, we keep on investing in in R&D, because I think that is something that we will be able to very firmly capitalize on in the years to come.

如果您喜歡合併營業報表，這將為您提供預設的損益表。再次強調，正如我之前提到的，我認為與 2023 年非常一致。所以大多數數字都是相當可比的。儘管你會這麼說——你會看到在研發方面，我們繼續全力推動，對吧。因此，很明顯，憑藉我們擁有的所有項目、我們擁有的研發管道、我們在中長期的雄心壯志以及我們擁有的好想法，我們將繼續投資在研發方面，因為我認為這是我們在未來幾年能夠非常堅定地利用的東西。

In terms of net bookings, I just want to highlight that because net bookings has captured the headlines in a few quarters last last year, and not always in a positive way. But just if you look at it from an annual perspective, if you put all those quarters together, you see it wasn't too shabby, was it? I mean, you're looking at an order intake for 2024, more or less on par with the order intake that we had in 2023.

就淨預訂而言，我只想強調這一點，因為淨預訂在去年的幾個季度中佔據了頭條新聞，但並不總是以積極的方式出現。但如果你從年度角度來看，如果你把所有這些季度放在一起，你會發現它並不算太糟糕，不是嗎？我的意思是，您看到的是 2024 年的訂單量，或多或少與 2023 年的訂單量持平。

So as we mentioned at the beginning of the year, a year, quite in line with what we what we had in 2023. A bit of growth, and the fact that we were able to sustain the gross margin, in spite of the fact that we had the first high NA tools recognized, I think isa strong achievement.

正如我們在年初所提到的，這一年與我們對 2023 年的情況非常一致。儘管我們擁有第一個被認可的高NA工具，但我們能夠維持毛利率，我認為這是一項巨大的成就。

Cash return to to shareholders. What we propose to the AGM is to declare a total dividend of EUR6.40 per ordinary share, that would be a 5% increase over the total dividend for 2023. And I think that's very much in line with the policy that we have, a policy of growing dividends. And whatever cash remains after we've used the cash in the business, whatever excess cash is there, and after distribution of dividend will be used in terms of share buybacks.

現金回報股東。我們向年度股東大會提議的是宣布每股普通股股息總額為 6.40 歐元，這將比 2023 年股息總額增加 5%。我認為這非常符合我們的政策，即增加股利的政策。在我們用完業務中的現金後剩下的現金，無論有多少多餘的現金，在分配股息後都將用於股票回購。

Share buybacks this year, fairly low in comparison to some of the previous years. As you see it here, we bought back shares for approximately EUR500 million. And that is related to what I mentioned a bit earlier, Q4 was very, very strong in terms of cash generation. But it really made up like more than 90%, I think of the total cash generation for the year. So the cash came in quite late. So at the end of the year, we're actually looking at a very high cash balance. But as a result of that, we chose not to do too much share buybacks in 2024.

與前幾年相比，今年的股票回購相當低。正如您在這裡看到的，我們回購了大約 5 億歐元的股票。這與我之前提到的有關，第四季度在現金產生方面非常非常強勁。但我認為它確實佔了全年現金產生總額的 90% 以上。所以現金到的很晚。因此，到了年底，我們實際上看到了非常高的現金餘額。但因此，我們選擇在 2024 年不進行太多股票回購。

In terms of outlook, so starting with the quarter, starting with Q1 2025, we expect net sales between EUR7.5 billion and EUR8 billion, installed base at EUR2.1 billion is what we expect for the first quarter, which is on par with the very strong install base sales that we already showed in Q4.

就前景而言，從本季開始，從2025 年第一季開始，我們預期淨銷售額在75 億歐元至80 億歐元之間，安裝基數為21 億歐元，這是我們對第一季的預期，與我們在第四季度已經表現出非常強勁的安裝基礎銷售。

Gross margin for this first quarter, between 52% and 53%, a little bit higher than the guidance or narrow if you to define it in that way, then the guidance that you see there for the full year. That is also related to the fact that in Q1, we will not see revenue recognition for high NA. So high NA will be more skewed towards the second half of the year. As a result of that, a slightly better gross margin in Q1.

第一季的毛利率在 52% 到 53% 之間，比指引值略高一點，或者如果你以這種方式定義的話，那麼毛利率會比你在全年看到的指導值窄一些。這也與第一季我們不會看到高數值孔徑的收入確認有關。如此高的數值孔徑將更偏向今年下半年。因此，第一季的毛利率略有改善。

R&D, approximately at the level that we saw for last quarter, and SG&A, I think well managed even a little bit below the level that we had in the last quarter. And then for the full year, we're looking at total net sales between EUR30 billion and EUR35 billion. So this is in line with what we what we discussed in in Q3. A gross margin between 51% and 53%, so you do see a good increase there in comparison to previous years. And annualized effective tax rate of around 17%. So that is the guidance that we have provided at Q3. And that we're reiterating in actually today.

研發，大約處於我們上季度看到的水平，而SG&A，我認為管理得很好，甚至略低於我們上季度的水平。然後，我們預計全年淨銷售額總額將在 300 億歐元至 350 億歐元之間。因此，這與我們在第三季討論的內容一致。毛利率在 51% 到 53% 之間，所以與前幾年相比，你確實看到了很大的成長。年化有效稅率約17%。這就是我們在第三季提供的指導。我們今天實際上正在重申這一點。

So I would say on a very strong start of the year, typically, what you would see is a very strong Q4, a not so strong Q1. I think we just saw was pretty strong Q4, pretty strong Q1. So I think that's good momentum.

因此，我想說，在今年非常強勁的開局中，通常情況下，您會看到非常強勁的第四季度，而不是那麼強勁的第一季。我認為我們剛剛看到第四季度非常強勁，第一季也非常強勁。所以我認為這是一個很好的動力。

Overall, and looking forward a little bit beyond 2025, what do we expect? And I think Christophe gave you the foundational comments for how we look at the business. What is very important, and you saw that also in the R&D number, we continue to invest in in R&D in a big way. So the roadmap that we have is quite broad and quite deep. And we do believe that it sets us up for capturing the opportunities that the markets provide.

整體而言，展望 2025 年後，我們有何期望？我認為克里斯托夫就我們如何看待業務向您提供了基本評論。非常重要的是，您在研發數字中也看到了，我們繼續大力投資研發。所以我們的路線圖非常廣泛而且非常深入。我們確實相信，這有助於我們抓住市場所提供的機會。

The markets as we see it, and as many people see it, the market by 2030, it could be a market, a semiconductor market that could exceed $1 trillion. So very significant growth in comparison to where we are today. And obviously, as Christophe said, AI is a very important driver of that growth. And we believe we are well positioned to -- with our products, capture the opportunities that such a growing semiconductor market actually provides.

我們所看到的市場，以及許多人所看到的市場，到2030年，它可能是一個市場，一個可能超過1兆美元的半導體市場。與我們今天的情況相比，成長非常顯著。顯然，正如 Christophe 所說，人工智慧是這種成長的非常重要的驅動力。我們相信，我們有能力利用我們的產品來抓住不斷成長的半導體市場實際提供的機會。

And in the capital markets today, we talked quite a bit about our roadmap there and about how we see a very significant share of ASML and an increasing share of ASML in the fabs of our customers, both on the logic side, and particularly also on the DRAM side.

今天在資本市場上，我們談論了很多關於我們在那裡的路線圖，以及我們如何看待ASML 的非常重要的份額以及ASML 在我們客戶的晶圓廠中不斷增加的份額，無論是在邏輯方面，還是在邏輯方面，特別是在DRAM 側。

In terms of what that pans out, how that pans out and what that leads to, we reiterating the numbers that Christophe just gave you as well. So we see growth scenarios leading to a market in 2030 for us, or a business for us by 2030, somewhere between EUR44 billion and EUR60 billion, and a gross margin between 56% and 60%. I would say both good optics from where we are today.

就結果、結果如何以及導致什麼而言，我們也重申了克里斯托夫剛剛給你的數字。因此，我們預計到 2030 年，我們的市場或業務將在 2030 年達到 440 億至 600 億歐元之間，毛利率在 56% 至 60% 之間。我想說的是，從我們今天的情況來看，這兩種光學都很好。

And finally, reiterating our capital allocation and financing policy, which hasn't changed. So again, what we need for the business, we actually use in the business, and you saw some of the projects that we're driving. So we have the R&D efforts, but also the CapEx efforts that were very visible and tangible on the slide that Christophe.

最後，重申我們的資本配置和融資政策並沒有改變。再說一遍，我們業務所需的，我們在業務中實際使用的，你看到了我們正在推動的一些項目。因此，我們有研發工作，但也有資本支出工作，這些工作在 Christophe 的幻燈片上非常明顯和切實。

Well we have a policy of growing dividends, and then whatever remains will be shared with our shareholders by means of share buyback. So that's the longer-term perspective. I think it's looking bright. And it's fueled by many of the dynamics that in the market that Christophe talked about, and many of the very strong ideas and projects and products that we have on our roadmap.

我們有增加股利的政策，然後剩下的將透過股票回購的方式與我們的股東分享。這就是更長遠的觀點。我認為它看起來很明亮。克里斯托夫談到的市場中的許多動態以及我們路線圖上的許多非常強大的想法、項目和產品都推動了這一趨勢。

And with that, I would like to hand it back over again to Monique, going to so you can grill us on Q&A.

說到這裡，我想再次將其交還給莫妮克，以便您可以透過問答來拷問我們。

Yeah, just stay here. And I'd like to invite Christophe as well for some Q&A. So we are getting questions in online. So continue to submit those if you're watching. Just a small reminder, we are only taking questions from journalists. So it is a media conference and a conference call for analysts will be later today at 3:00.

是的，就待在這裡吧。我還想邀請 Christophe 來參加一些問答。所以我們在網上收到問題。因此，如果您正在觀看，請繼續提交這些內容。謹提醒您，我們只接受記者提問。這是一場媒體會議，分析師電話會議將於今天稍晚 3:00 舉行。

I see a lot of hands going up and Mark has the microphone. So Mark, can you start there?

我看到很多人舉手，馬克拿著麥克風。馬克，你能從這裡開始嗎？

Marss Molca, can you say your name first and your publication, so everyone knows who you are?

Marss Molca，你能先說出你的名字和你的出版物，這樣每個人都知道你是誰嗎？

Sure. Thank you very much. It's Klaus Max Smolka of German newspaper, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. The elephant in the room this week is DeepSeek. What is your expectation? What's the effect of DeepSeek like technology on ASML? And in particular, is DeepSeek technology going to jeopardize your sales in terms of the most advanced high technology machines? Thank you.

當然。非常感謝。我是德國《法蘭克福匯報》的克勞斯·馬克斯·斯莫爾卡。本週房間裡的大像是 DeepSeek。您的期望是什麼？DeepSeek之類的技術對ASML有何影響？特別是，DeepSeek 技術是否會危害您最先進高科技機器的銷售？謝謝。

Christophe?

克里斯托夫？

Yeah, so I think a lot of this question in the last couple of days. So first, I'd like to say we're not a model expert. So I don't have a strong opinion on how good or bad is the new model. So I'll leave that part aside.

是的，這幾天我想了很多這個問題。首先，我想說我們不是模型專家。所以我對新模型的好壞沒有強烈的看法。所以我會把這部分放在一邊。

From a more general point of view, we believe that AI success, AI expansion has two main challenges moving forward: cost, say differently, today, AI is too expensive to be able to be rolled out to many, many applications; and power consumption. And in order for AI to be everywhere, we need to see major progress on cost and energy consumption. That's the first thing.

從更普遍的角度來看，我們認為人工智慧的成功、人工智慧的擴展有兩個主要挑戰：成本，換句話說，今天，人工智慧太昂貴，無法推廣到很多很多應用程式；和功耗。為了讓人工智慧無所不在，我們需要在成本和能源消耗方面取得重大進展。這是第一件事。

The second thing is, if you look at this industry, lowering cost has always contributed to more volume. This is basically the fundamental of Moore's law. Moore's law is about reducing cost every single generation so that you create more opportunity.

第二件事是，如果你看看這個行業，降低成本總是有助於增加銷售。這基本上是摩爾定律的基礎。摩爾定律是關於降低每一代的成本，以便創造更多機會。

So I will say in general that any technology, whatever it is, that will contribute into a cost reduction overhaul of AI will increase the opportunity. This has been true in this industry for the last 40, 60 years. I think it's still true moving forward. That's the first thing.

因此，總的來說，任何有助於降低人工智慧成本的技術，無論是什麼，都會增加機會。過去 40、60 年來，這個行業一直如此。我認為繼續前進仍然是正確的。這是第一件事。

So if you ask me, for us, anyone that lower cost is in fact a good news for ASML because lower cost means AI can be used in more application. More application means more chips. And we are in the business of providing equipment to people who make chips. So that's the first thing.

所以如果你問我，對我們來說，任何更低的成本實際上對 ASML 來說都是一個好消息，因為更低的成本意味著人工智慧可以用於更多的應用。更多的應用意味著更多的晶片。我們的業務是為晶片製造商提供設備。這是第一件事。

The second thing also mentioned, AI is a huge opportunity. Therefore, I think you should expect to see a few elephant in the rooms in the next few months or few years because everyone will want to be in. And I think the competition, especially when it comes to software, because I think this is where the threshold to access is the lowest, will be very high.

第二件事也提到了，人工智慧是一個巨大的機會。因此，我認為你應該預料到在接下來的幾個月或幾年裡你會在房間裡看到一些大象，因為每個人都想進去。我認為競爭，特別是在軟體方面，因為我認為這是進入門檻最低的地方，競爭將會非常激烈。

So you cannot have an industry with this amount of opportunity without the key player being, I would say, challenged. So I think you will see a lot more of those discussions happening in the next few months or years.

因此，我想說，如果關鍵參與者不受到挑戰，就不可能擁有一個擁有如此多機會的行業。所以我認為在接下來的幾個月或幾年裡你會看到更多這樣的討論發生。

So I think it's a good news, if I make it short. Again, I don't know exactly what DeepSeek can or cannot do, but I said again, anything that will drive costs down is a good news for ASML on the long term.

因此，如果我長話短說，我認為這是一個好消息。再說一遍，我不知道 DeepSeek 能做什麼或不能做什麼，但我再說一遍，從長遠來看，任何能降低成本的事情對 ASML 來說都是個好消息。

Thank you, Christophe. Kim here, Wall Street Journal.

謝謝你，克里斯托夫。金在這裡，《華爾街日報》。

Thank you. Kim Mackrael from the Wall Street Journal. Another DeepSeek question. Sorry about that. I'm wondering over recent years, export controls to China and to particular fabs have been tightened. Does DeepSeek say anything to you about the effectiveness of those controls? What impact do you think controls have had on DeepSeek or on the ability to do something like that? Thanks.

謝謝。《華爾街日報》的金麥克雷爾。另一個 DeepSeek 問題。對此感到抱歉。我想知道近年來對中國和特定晶圓廠的出口管制是否收緊。DeepSeek 是否曾向您透露過有關這些控制措施有效性的資訊？您認為控制措施對 DeepSeek 或執行類似操作的能力有何影響？謝謝。

Yeah, I think that any answer on that would be quite speculative. So I think I don't know. Again, there's a lot of opinion being given on how this relates to export control. I think it's hard to say. I think you look at -- we talk about software, we talk about algorithm, we talk about people working to develop better algorithm than other. I think you're still pretty high at the surface of AI, if you know what I mean. I think the software part, the algorithm part will be the most open field, most probably moving forward.

是的，我認為對此的任何答案都是相當推測的。所以我想我不知道。同樣，對於這與出口管制的關係，也有很多意見。我覺得很難說。我想你看看——我們談論軟體，我們談論演算法，我們談論那些致力於開發比其他人更好的演算法的人。如果你明白我的意思的話，我認為你對人工智慧的了解仍然相當深入。我認為軟體部分、演算法部分將是最開放的領域，最有可能向前發展。

So I would not draw any conclusion. I think you will see a lot of people trying to do that. I think, of course, the topic being emotional, this is also a reason for that. But I don't know, to be honest. I think that would be highly speculative.

所以我不會下任何結論。我想你會看到很多人試圖這樣做。我想，當然，這個話題是情緒化的，這也是一個原因。但說實話，我不知道。我認為這將是高度推測性的。

Yeah. Okay. Let's return to -- I see you. Let's return to a question online. From Le Monde.

是的。好的。讓我們回到——我看見你了。我們回到網路上的一個問題。來自《世界報》。

Happy for you.

為你高興。

What about the Beethoven plan of the government? Is everything okay with the promised investments and will ASML stay definitely in the Netherlands? I think that's also a question, especially there's some speculation and some chat and news about France. So maybe you want to address that first and then we go to Beethoven.

政府的貝多芬計劃呢？承諾的投資一切順利嗎？我認為這也是一個問題，尤其是有一些關於法國的猜測、聊天和新聞。所以也許你想先解決這個問題，然後我們再轉向貝多芬。

Well, I think we've been very clear many, many times and I'm going to try to be clear again. But this is the place we want to be. And this is the place we want to be because we have developed our infrastructure, R&D, manufacturing here in Veldhoven. We believe that keeping those two close is very important for success. So we want to continue to grow here around Veldhoven. This is why we had this basically agreement to look for a second campus and we are finalizing that. So we want to be here. I cannot be more clear than that.

嗯，我想我們已經說得非常清楚了很多次了，我將嘗試再次說清楚。但這就是我們想要去的地方。這就是我們想要成為的地方，因為我們在費爾德霍芬開發了基礎設施、研發和製造。我們相信，保持這兩者的密切關係對於成功非常重要。因此，我們希望繼續在費爾德霍芬周圍發展。這就是為什麼我們達成了尋找第二個校區的基本協議，我們正在敲定這一點。所以我們想來這裡。我再清楚不過了。

I think we are working as a resource with the different parties to make Beethoven, our second campus, a success. We are deeply involved. I think we have developed good working relationship with the municipality, but also with the Dutch government because some of the things we need require attention.

我認為我們正在與各方合作，使我們的第二個校園貝多芬校區取得成功。我們深度參與。我認為我們與市政府以及荷蘭政府都建立了良好的工作關係，因為我們需要專注於一些事情。

And of course, it's a bit of work, but we need as a country, as a region, to be able to do that because, of course, we are competing with many other places in the world where this doesn't sound like a big deal at all. So I think we have to believe that we can do that, convinced we can do that. And so far, the progress is good. I think Roger can say a few more words because he's involved deeply on almost a weekly basis to track the progress. But I think the intention and the ambition are remaining very, very strong.

當然，這需要做一些工作，但作為一個國家、一個地區，我們需要能夠做到這一點，因為當然，我們正在與世界上許多其他地方競爭，而這些地方聽起來並不像根本沒什麼大不了的。所以我認為我們必須相信我們可以做到這一點，確信我們可以做到這一點。而且到目前為止，進展良好。我認為羅傑還可以多說幾句話，因為他幾乎每週都會深入參與以追蹤進度。但我認為意圖和野心仍然非常非常強烈。

I don't know, Roger, if you want to --

我不知道，羅傑，你願不願意--

Yeah, sure. We can say a few words on progress because obviously there are challenges, right? I mean, if it's about nitrogen deposition or it's about the grid or it's about the execution power in municipalities, which recently drew some attention. And it's all true.

是的，當然。我們可以就進展說幾句話，因為顯然存在挑戰，對吧？我的意思是，如果是關於氮沉積，或者是關於電網，或者是關於市政當局的執行力，這最近引起了一些關注。這都是真的。

But what is very, very clear is that there is a very strong commitment of our government and government at very different levels, be it at the national level or be it at the local or regional level. There is a very strong commitment to making this happen. So that is what works for us.

但非常非常清楚的是，我們的政府和不同層級的政府都做出了非常堅定的承諾，無論是在國家層級還是在地方或地區層級。我們有非常堅定的承諾來實現這一目標。這就是對我們有用的。

And then at the end of the day, this is collaboration. And at the end of the day, making sure that the right resources are working on the right projects and getting stuff done in time. And we have all the confidence that the things will be executed in time such that we can execute on the expansion as we have planned.

歸根結底，這就是合作。歸根結底，確保正確的資源用於正確的專案並及時完成工作。我們完全有信心這些事情會及時執行，以便我們能夠按計劃執行擴張。

Okay, thank you. [John Koch] had a question from Bloomberg. Thank you. Hi, John.

好的，謝謝。 [約翰·科赫]向彭博社提出了一個問題。謝謝。嗨，約翰。

Two questions. One on DeepSeek. Well, the news on Monday sent tech stocks into a tailspin, especially NVIDIA, but also ASML's market cap fell by more than $20 billion on Monday. So was this overblown, this reaction, do you think? And what's your kind of response to investors who question the need to spend billions on advanced chips and hardware on AI?

兩個問題。DeepSeek 上的一個。嗯，週一的消息讓科技股陷入混亂，尤其是英偉達，但周一ASML的市值也下跌了超過200億美元。您認為這種反應是否言過其實？對於質疑是否需要花費數十億美元購買先進人工智慧晶片和硬體的投資者，您有何回應？

And then the second question is, last week Dutch Prime Minister Dick Schoof said that he expects the Trump administration to keep pushing the Netherlands for more export controls on ASML sales to China. What else can we expect on export controls this year? Do you expect sales of your older DUV machines to be affected?

第二個問題是，荷蘭首相迪克·肖夫上週表示，預計川普政府將繼續推動荷蘭對ASML對華銷售實施更多出口管制。今年我們對出口管制還有哪些期待？您預計舊 DUV 機器的銷售會受到影響嗎？

Do you want to start with that?

你想從那裡開始嗎？

You want to start the second one and then I'll go back to DeepSeek, if you want to --

如果您想開始第二個，然後我會回到 DeepSeek，如果您願意的話--

Okay. On the second one, in terms of export controls, John, we're not going to speculate on that. I mean, let's be clear, export controls is not new. It's something that we've been living for many, many years. And I think in good collaboration with governments have been able to work it and we'll just see what's going to happen there. There is enough speculation we're not going to add to the speculation there.

好的。關於第二個問題，就出口管製而言，約翰，我們不會對此進行猜測。我的意思是，讓我們明確一點，出口管制並不是什麼新鮮事。這是我們已經生活了很多很多年的事。我認為透過與政府的良好合作已經能夠實現這一目標，我們將看看那裡會發生什麼。有足夠多的猜測，我們不會再添加更多的猜測。

I would make one comment on DeepSeek and then I'll give it to Christophe. We're not second guessing the market. I mean, the market does what it wants to do. But if you read the analyst reports on the tech stocks, I think there is an increasing voice that echoes what Christophe said, which is at the end of the day, if you make it cheaper and if you make it more accessible, if you make it more energy efficient, it can lead to a democratization of AI in a way that is necessary in order for this to become prevalent. And that's what you see now in most of the analyst reports that I see. That is what is being echoed there.

我會對 DeepSeek 發表一條評論，然後將其轉給 Christophe。我們不會對市場進行二次猜測。我的意思是，市場會做它想做的事。但如果你閱讀有關科技股的分析師報告，我認為越來越多的人呼應克里斯托夫所說的，歸根結底，如果你讓它更便宜，如果你讓它更容易獲得，如果你讓它更節能，可以以某種方式導致人工智慧的民主化，這是人工智慧普及所必需的。這就是你現在在我看到的大多數分析師報告中看到的內容。這就是那裡得到的回應。

Yeah. And I think what we do on AI or try to do that also in November, this is a long term trend, long term opportunity. And when it comes to this topic, we always invite everyone to look at the long term.

是的。我認為我們在 11 月在人工智慧方面所做的事情或嘗試這樣做，這是一個長期趨勢，長期機會。當談到這個話題時，我們總是邀請大家著眼長遠。

I think on the short term, we explained that. So for us, for example, this created a major shift on the market. And this was not all good, as you have seen last year. I mean, some of our customers really struggled with the fact that this huge opportunity was coming. It was changing the game of the market and not all of them did well, as you noticed.

我認為從短期來看，我們對此進行了解釋。例如，對我們來說，這造成了市場的重大轉變。正如您去年所見，這並不全然是好事。我的意思是，我們的一些客戶確實為這個巨大的機會即將到來而感到掙扎。它正在改變市場的遊戲規則，但正如您所注意到的，並非所有的公司都表現出色。

And we also say, I said that in my presentation, today, we don't know exactly how AI will build itself. So there will be a lot of new players coming in. I don't think that you can define today who is the winner in 2030. I think there will be a lot of competition because I said again, the opportunity is huge. And to amplify Roger, we welcome in many ways that competition, because this will go against cost, which will increase the opportunity, and it will go in favor of innovation.

我們也說，我在今天的演講中說過，我們並不確切地知道人工智慧將如何建構自身。所以將會有很多新玩家加入。我認為今天無法定義誰是 2030 年的贏家。我認為會有很多競爭，因為我再說一遍，機會是巨大的。為了擴大羅傑的影響，我們在許多方面歡迎競爭，因為這將不利於成本，這將增加機會，並且有利於創新。

So I think the challenge is to be able to project yourself, not try to dream up what's happened in the next five years. And like I say, you will get a lot of those discussion. Because I don't think that DeepSeek is the last company that say, hey, this is a great opportunity I'd like to be in. It's not like anyone is going to sit and say, well, we declared a winner today. They are A, X, B, whatever. No, people are going to fight for the opportunity. And I think it's a good thing.

所以我認為挑戰在於能夠展現自己，而不是試圖想像未來五年會發生什麼事。就像我說的，你會得到很多這樣的討論。因為我不認為 DeepSeek 是最後一家說「嘿，這是一個我想加入的好機會」的公司。並不是任何人都會坐下來說，好吧，我們今天宣布了勝利者。他們是A、X、B，等等。不，人們會為機會而奮鬥。我認為這是一件好事。

And well, now you know the question is always when it comes to market, you look at short versus long term. We run a business. We look at the long term because this is where the success, the opportunity is.

好吧，現在你知道問題始終是在市場方面，你會考慮短期與長期。我們經營一家企業。我們著眼長遠，因為這才是成功、機會所在。

Thank you. Toby, Reuters.

謝謝。托比，路透社。

Hi, yeah, Toby from Reuters. I'm not sure, is there a logical contradiction there if you say it's good if the prices come down, but it's also good if there's huge demand for lots of AI chips. So I'm just not sure if it makes complete logical sense what you say, that lower prices will drive better volumes. For ASML in any case, maybe it's a wash, right?

嗨，是的，來自路透社的托比。我不確定，如果你說價格下降是好事，但對大量人工智慧晶片的巨大需求也是好事，這是否存在邏輯上的矛盾？所以我不確定你所說的更低的價格會帶來更好的銷售是否完全符合邏輯。無論如何，對於ASML來說，也許這是一次洗禮，對吧？

Second question, I just I wanted to ask you, you had a great comment, I think, three months ago when you said that outside of AI, the chip market looks pretty sad. And I'm wondering whether you see any change there with the rest of the market.

第二個問題，我只是想問你，你有一個很好的評論，我想，三個月前，當你說除了人工智慧之外，晶片市場看起來相當悲傷。我想知道您是否看到市場其他部分有任何變化。

Yeah, so on the first one, on the cost relation to volume, let me try to put a bit of color on that. Today, the level of AI sales is pretty high, but most of it goes to hyperscale computers, servers. If you look at the number of chips related to that, it's pretty small, in fact. This is not the majority of chips.

是的，所以在第一個問題上，關於成本與數量的關係，讓我嘗試對此進行一些說明。如今，人工智慧的銷售水準相當高，但大部分都流向了超大規模電腦、伺服器。如果你看一下與之相關的晶片數量，事實上它相當小。這不是大多數晶片。

If it stays like this, then you only have people spending money in R&D to develop models, but you don't have -- which is a big question in AI, you don't have the application that basically create the return on this investment. So what we expect to come over the years is those applications.

如果一直這樣，那麼你就只有人們在研發上花錢來開發模型，但你卻沒有——這是人工智慧的一個大問題，你沒有基本上創造這種投資回報的應用程式。因此，我們預計這些年來將會出現這些應用程式。

And those applications most probably will end up on a phone, on a car, in industrial applications, you see a lot of expectation, new expectation on robotics, for example, that's one new area. Of course, on PC, et cetera, et cetera, on what we call [AGI]. Today, those chips are not yet in demand.

這些應用程式很可能最終會出現在手機、汽車、工業應用中，你會看到很多期望，例如對機器人技術的新期望，這是一個新領域。當然，在PC上，等等，等等，在我們所說的[通用人工智慧]。如今，這些晶片尚未出現需求。

We believe that when it comes to the size of our business, the demand will come more from the use of AI than the research on AI. And to get those chips, if you want to have AI chips on your phone, the cost of those chips has to be a fraction of what maybe the hyperscaler can pay for it. You cannot afford 25,000 chips on your phone. So this has to happen.

我們相信，當涉及到我們的業務規模時，需求將更多來自於人工智慧的使用，而不是人工智慧的研究。為了獲得這些晶片，如果你想在你的手機上安裝人工智慧晶片，這些晶片的成本必須是超大規模企業可以支付的費用的一小部分。你買不起你的手機上的 25,000 個晶片。所以這必鬚髮生。

And when this happens, which we see again, most probably in the second half of the end of this decade, then AI will really drive volume. That's the relationship. If the cost doesn't go down, you may continue to sell a few very expensive chips and make a few people very happy. But you will not basically bring this technology to, well, let's say to the mass, and the volume will remain small.

當這種情況發生時，我們很可能會在本世紀末的後半段再次看到這種情況，那麼人工智慧將真正推動銷售。就是這樣的關係。如果成本不降，你可能會繼續賣一些很貴的晶片，讓一些人很高興。但你基本上不會把這項技術帶到大眾中，而且體積仍然很小。

So we have to get to that point. And we don't know exactly when and how, but what we expect is mostly this happens between now and the end of the decade.

所以我們必須達到這一點。我們不知道確切的時間和方式，但我們預計這種情況主要發生在現在到本世紀末之間。

Toby, it's a classic case of microeconomy, where it's all about price sensitivity. And I think anything related to tech in the past has demonstrated to be very, very price sensitive. So to the extent that you're able to drive down cost and prices, it more than compensates for in demand. I think that's what we've seen in the past. And that's the basis why indeed Christophe has been saying, starting last year, cost needs to be driven down in order for AI to be successful.

托比，這是微觀經濟的典型案例，一切都與價格敏感度有關。我認為過去與科技相關的任何事情都被證明對價格非常非常敏感。因此，只要您能夠降低成本和價格，就足以彌補需求。我認為這就是我們過去所看到的。這就是為什麼克里斯托夫從去年開始就一直在說，為了讓人工智慧成功，成本需要降低。

Yeah, and I think on the second question, Toby, I think what Roger and I had many discussions on that in the last few months, what we really see is we used to look at when the recovery of the normal business happened. I think today, we believe that what's really happening in the market is a real shift.

是的，我認為關於第二個問題，托比，我認為羅傑和我在過去幾個月裡對此進行了很多討論，我們真正看到的是我們過去常常關注正常業務何時恢復。我認為今天，我們相信市場上真正發生的事情是一個真正的轉變。

So AI is changing quite a few things. With some customers, some of our customers are doing extremely well, some of them having to catch up. We see it changing potentially the roadmap of our customer because they have to develop basically processes that will be more targeting high-power computer or high bandwidth memory. Roger talked about it.

所以人工智慧正在改變很多事情。對於一些客戶，我們的一些客戶做得非常好，其中一些客戶必須迎頭趕上。我們認為它可能會改變我們客戶的路線圖，因為他們必須開發更多針對高功率電腦或高頻寬記憶體的基本流程。羅傑談到了這件事。

So there is a real change. There is a bit of a reorganization of the market, which I think we really started to sense in the second half of last year. And this came with a bit of turbulences. I think this is still happening because everyone is a bit lining up to basically go after this opportunity. So this is quite a big change to be honest. It affects quite a few parts of our business. That's I think the way we look at it today.

所以確實發生了變化。市場正在進行一些重組，我認為我們在去年下半年才真正開始感受到這一點。這伴隨著一些動盪。我認為這種情況仍在發生，因為每個人都在排隊等待這個機會。所以說實話，這是一個相當大的改變。它影響了我們業務的許多部分。我認為這就是我們今天看待它的方式。

We still have a few minutes. So there were some questions here. Can you start there? Yeah. We'll try to be brief and get to all of you.

我們還有幾分鐘。所以這裡有一些問題。你能從那裡開始嗎？是的。我們將盡量簡短地向大家介紹。

Yes, I'm Huub Giesbers from Dutch news agency ANP. And I was wondering, since I hear you mentioning that innovation is so important also for the semiconductor industry to reach volume, is it a bit concerned that the world markets are fragmenting because of trade wars or the threatening of trade wars with the US government? You're mentioning tariffs almost every day also on semiconductors. And will this in some way impact your long-term outlook?

是的，我是荷蘭通訊社 ANP 的 Huub Giesbers。我想知道，既然我聽到您提到創新對於半導體產業的銷售也非常重要，那麼是否有點擔心世界市場因貿易戰或與美國政府的貿易戰威脅而變得碎片化？您幾乎每天都提到半導體關稅。這會在某種程度上影響您的長期前景嗎？

So I think we can both. So the short answer, I think we've been consistent on that. I think this industry has developed on a very successful open ecosystem. The model where you decouple this ecosystem, where you try to have two maybe instead of one, makes things more expensive. That's for sure. And slow us down. And I would say this is true almost for any economical matter. So that I think is still true.

所以我認為我們都可以。簡而言之，我認為我們在這一點上是一致的。我認為這個產業已經在一個非常成功的開放生態系統上發展起來。將這個生態系統解耦的模型，你嘗試擁有兩個而不是一個，會讓事情變得更昂貴。這是肯定的。並減慢我們的速度。我想說，幾乎對於任何經濟問題都是如此。所以我認為仍然是正確的。

Does it necessarily affect the long term? So there you can get more tactical where you say, well, now if I have two, then that could be more. So there is no clear picture. It depends a bit on how the whole thing evolves. But the biggest impact is on cost and speed of innovation. If you have an open ecosystem, both will be better.

是否一定會影響長期？所以你可以得到更多的戰術，你可以說，好吧，現在如果我有兩個，那麼可能會更多。所以沒有清晰的圖片。這在一定程度上取決於整件事的發展。但最大的影響是創新的成本和速度。如果你有一個開放的生態系統，兩者都會更好。

Okay. We need to speed it up a little bit. Bert -- sorry, Dan, I'm trying to get to you.

好的。我們需要加快一點速度。伯特——抱歉，丹，我正在努力聯絡你。

Bert van Dijk, Het Financieele Dagblad. Just a follow up question on Toby's question about the other industry than the AI sector. I was just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on the automotive market and the industry market. Do you see some kind of recovery happening there? Or are you talking also about a shift in that industry as well?

伯特·範·戴克 (Bert van Dijk)，Het Financieele Dagblad。這是托比關於人工智慧領域以外的其他行業的問題的後續問題。我只是想知道您能否詳細介紹汽車市場和工業市場。您看到那裡正在發生某種復甦嗎？或者您也在談論該行業的轉變？

And a short second question is about the order intake. You're going to stop reporting on that from 2026. I was just wondering, is that because you feel like that the investors are too much focused on that number that leads to swings in your share price? Or could you elaborate a bit on why you decided to stop? Because it seems to be a step back in transparency.

第二個問題是關於訂單量。從 2026 年起，您將停止對此進行報告。我只是想知道，是不是因為你覺得投資人太專注在這個數字，導致你的股價波動？或者您能詳細說明一下您決定停​​止的原因嗎？因為這似乎是透明度的倒退。

So let me take both. On the automotive market, the relevance for us for the automotive market has two angles to it. On the one hand, it is the electrification. And on the other hand, it is ADAS, so autonomous driving or assistance and assistance systems.

所以讓我兩者兼得。在汽車市場上，我們與汽車市場的相關性有兩個角度。一方面是電氣化。另一方面，它是ADAS，即自動駕駛或輔助和輔助系統。

So those are the two there. I think electrification is clearly in significant parts of the world is not happening as rapidly as was anticipated. I think when it comes to ADAS, it will be heavily dependent on how regulation is going to develop. But there we are more positive, and we do see that ADAS will break through. So yes, I think the automotive market globally right now is going through a bit of a dip with the electrification. I think long term, I think ADAS is still strong.

這就是那裡的兩個人。我認為，世界上許多地區的電氣化顯然沒有像預期的那樣迅速發生。我認為 ADAS 的發展很大程度取決於監管的發展。但我們對此更加積極，我們確實看到 ADAS 將會取得突破。所以，是的，我認為目前全球汽車市場正在經歷電氣化帶來的一些下滑。我認為從長遠來看，ADAS 仍然很強大。

When it comes to the transparency argument on what we're doing, I think at the end of the day, what matters to us is that we give investors the right information and the information that they can take the right decisions on.

當談到我們正在做的事情的透明度爭論時，我認為歸根結底，對我們來說重要的是我們為投資者提供正確的資訊以及他們可以做出正確決策的資訊。

We give them guidance. We give you guidance every single year. That guidance is based on ongoing conversations with our customers. And we think that that guidance that we provide gives you a better indication of the momentum of our business than providing on a quarterly basis order intake, which we have been saying for quite a while is pretty lumpy. So that's why we think in this case, over the longer term, less is more.

我們給他們指導。我們每年都會為您提供指導。該指導基於與客戶的持續對話。我們認為，我們提供的指導可以讓您更了解我們業務的勢頭，而不是按季度提供訂單量，我們很長一段時間以來一直在說訂單量相當不穩定。這就是為什麼我們認為在這種情況下，從長遠來看，少即是多。

Sorry, we have to end this. So if you have any more questions, contact one of the Media Relations colleagues and we'll get back to you. Thank you for joining. Thank you for coming to Veldhoven. Thank you for joining online and hope to see you next year. Thank you.

抱歉，我們必須結束這一切。因此，如果您還有任何疑問，請聯絡媒體關係同事，我們會盡快回覆您。感謝您的加入。感謝您來到費爾德霍芬。感謝您在線上加入，希望明年再見。謝謝。