艾司摩爾 (ASML) 2012 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome to the ASML 2012 fourth-quarter and annual results conference call on January 17, 2013. Throughout today's introduction, all participants will be in a listen-only mode. After ASML's introduction, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. (Operator Instructions)

女士們、先生們，感謝你們的支持。歡迎參加2013年1月17日ASML 2012年第四季及年度業績電話會議。在今天的介紹過程中，所有參與者將處於只聽模式。ASML介紹完後，會有提問的機會。（操作員指示）

I would now like to turn the conference over to Mr. Craig DeYoung. Go ahead, please, sir.

現在我想將會議交給 Craig DeYoung 先生。請繼續，先生。

Thank you, Peter, and good afternoon and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. This is Craig DeYoung, Vice President of Investor Relations at ASML. Joining me today from our headquarters here in Veldhoven, the Netherlands, is Mr. Eric Meurice, ASML's CEO; and Mr. Peter Wennink, ASML's CFO.

謝謝你，彼得。女士們、先生們，下午好，早安。我是 ASML 投資人關係副總裁 Craig DeYoung。今天與我一起從荷蘭費爾德霍芬總部前來的還有 ASML 執行長 Eric Meurice 先生； ASML 財務長 Peter Wennink 先生。

As the operator suggested, the subject of today's call is ASML's fourth-quarter and annual 2012 results. This call is also being broadcast live over the Internet at www.ASML.com, and a replay of the call will be available on our website for approximately 90 days.

正如接線員所暗示的，今天電話會議的主題是 ASML 2012 年第四季和全年業績。此次電話會議也將透過網路在 www.ASML.com 上進行現場直播，並且會議重播將在我們的網站上提供約 90 天。

Before we begin, I would like to caution listeners that comments made by management during this conference call will include forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal security laws. These forward-looking statements involve material risks and uncertainties. For a discussion of risk factors, I encourage you to review the Safe Harbor statement contained in today's press release and presentation found on our website at www.ASML.com, and in ASML's Annual Report on Form 20-F and other documents as filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

在我們開始之前，我想提醒聽眾，管理階層在本次電話會議中發表的評論將包括聯邦安全法所定義的前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述涉及重大風險和不確定性。有關風險因素的討論，我建議您查看今天的新聞稿和我們網站 www.ASML.com 上的簡報中包含的安全港聲明，以及 ASML 的 20-F 表年度報告和向美國證券交易委員會提交的其他文件中包含的安全港聲明。

The length of the call will be 60 minutes. And before we begin the Q&A, I'd like to turn it over for a brief introduction by Mr. Eric Meurice.

通話時間為 60 分鐘。在我們開始問答之前，我想先請 Eric Meurice 先生做個簡短的介紹。

Thank you, Craig. Before we begin the Q&A session, Peter and I would like to provide an overview and some commentary as usual. Peter will start with a review of our Q4 financial performance with added comment on the short-term outlook. I will complete the introduction with a brief status update on EUV.

謝謝你，克雷格。在我們開始問答環節之前，彼得和我想像往常一樣提供一個概述和一些評論。彼得將首先回顧我們第四季的財務業績，並對短期前景發表評論。我將透過 EUV 的簡要現狀更新來完成介紹。

So, Peter, please.

那麼，彼得，有請。

Thank you, Eric. And welcome to everyone. Our fourth-quarter results are very much in line with expectations that we set at the end of the third quarter. Our fourth-quarter sales results came in just above our guidance. This quarter's sales again remained largely skewed towards the foundry IDM sectors, which was 87% of total. And that included non-critical KrF systems, which supported capacity additions. The combined memory represented the balance of 13%.

謝謝你，埃里克。歡迎大家。我們的第四季業績與我們在第三季末設定的預期非常一致。我們的第四季銷售業績略高於我們的預期。本季的銷售額仍主要偏向代工 IDM 領域，佔總銷售額的 87%。其中包括支援容量增加的非關鍵 KrF 系統。合併後的記憶體佔餘額的 13%。

By the way, we are now reporting memory sales, bookings, and backlog as one total value, due to decreasing transparency around system allocations between DRAM and NAND.

順便說一句，由於 DRAM 和 NAND 之間的系統分配透明度降低，我們現在將記憶體銷售、預訂和積壓作為一個總價值進行報告。

The ASP of all systems recognized in Q4 was EUR22.5 million, a decrease of about 10% from the previous quarter, affected by an increased percentage of used systems. Service and field option sales hit a record level of EUR257 million this quarter, which I will come back to in a moment.

第四季所有系統的平均銷售價格為 2,250 萬歐元，較上一季下降約 10%，受二手系統比例增加的影響。本季服務和現場選項銷售額達到創紀錄的 2.57 億歐元，稍後我將再次談到這一點。

Fourth-quarter net bookings came in at EUR667 million for 32 systems, excluding EUV, with booked ASPs of EUR20.9 million versus EUR25 million in the third quarter. The quarter's bookings ASP was impacted by a higher percentage of KrF AU systems -- clearly, not indicative for future bookings, which will reflect the secular trend of higher value technology buys.

第四季度，32 個系統（不包括 EUV）的淨預訂額為 6.67 億歐元，預訂平均銷售價格為 2,090 萬歐元，而第三季為 2,500 萬歐元。本季的訂單平均售價受到 KrF AU 系統比例較高的影響——顯然，這並不代表未來的訂單，這將反映出購買更高價值技術的長期趨勢。

Our order backlog at the end of Q4 was EUR1.2 billion, including 46 systems, with excluding EUV. And the backlog profile at quarter's end to remain very similar to that at the end of the prior quarter, with a slight further movement in favor of foundry and IDM.

我們第四季末的訂單積壓為 12 億歐元，其中包括 46 個系統，不包括 EUV。本季末的積壓訂單情況與上一季末的情況非常相似，但代工廠和 IDM 略有優勢。

Regarding our fourth-quarter and total 2012 income tax charge, I'd like to point out that we released almost EUR120 million of our accrued tax liability during the fourth quarter, as a result of the favorable conclusion of tax audits in various tax jurisdictions outside the Netherlands. And this resulted in a nearly complete offset of the total income tax due on ASML earnings for the year 2012.

關於我們第四季和2012年總所得稅費用，我想指出的是，由於荷蘭以外各個稅務管轄區的稅務審計結果良好，我們在第四季度免除了近1.2億歐元的應計稅負債。這使得 ASML 2012 年度應繳納的所得稅總額幾乎全部抵銷。

Regarding share buybacks, we completed our (technical difficulty) [EUR1. billion] program during Q4, with a repurchase of approximately 4 million shares, reducing our total share count to about 407 million as of the end of the year. As a result, ASML has now returned more than EUR4 billion in cash to shareholders through share buybacks and dividends since 2006.

關於股票回購，我們完成了（技術難題）[EUR1。第四季度，我們實施了「十億」計劃，回購了約 400 萬股，導致截至年底我們的總股數減少至約 4.07 億股。因此，自 2006 年以來，ASML 透過股票回購和股利向股東返還了超過 40 億歐元的現金。

Furthermore, due to ASML's strong financial position and operating cash flow prospects, we intend to continue our policy to return excess cash to shareholders through dividends and share buybacks. However, for regulatory reasons, ASML will not announce any new share buyback program before Cymer's extraordinary general meeting of shareholders, which will be held on February 5, 2013.

此外，由於 ASML 強勁的財務狀況和經營現金流前景，我們打算繼續透過股利和股票回購向股東返還多餘現金的政策。不過，出於監管方面的原因，ASML 不會在 Cymer 將於 2013 年 2 月 5 日舉行的臨時股東大會之前宣布任何新的股票回購計劃。

ASML intends to again increase the dividend by 15% compared to last year. Therefore, we will submit a proposal to the 2013 annual general meeting of shareholders to declare a dividend in respect to 2012 of EUR0.53 per ordinary share compared to a dividend of EUR0.46 per ordinary share paid in respect of 2011.

ASML 打算再次將股利較去年增加 15%。因此，我們將向 2013 年年度股東大會提交一份提案，宣布 2012 年每股普通股派發 0.53 歐元的股息，而 2011 年每股普通股派發 0.46 歐元的股息。

As to the outlook, we currently anticipate the sales levels for 2013 to come in at an approximately similar level as in 2012. However, second-half 2013 sales will be higher than first-half sales, largely due to the timing of next note investments of our foundry customers. Therefore, we anticipate Q1 total sales coming in at about EUR850 million with a gross margin of about 38%.

就前景而言，我們目前預計 2013 年的銷售水準將與 2012 年大致相同。不過，2013年下半年的銷售額將高於上半年的銷售額，這主要是由於我們的代工客戶下一次注資的時機所致。因此，我們預計第一季總銷售額約為 8.5 億歐元，毛利率約為 38%。

The gross margin in the first quarter is temporarily affected by the underabsorption of our fixed production costs due to the lower sales level in the first quarter. And on top of this, the underabsorption is fueled by the EUV production infrastructure, which will only start seeing cost coverage once we start shipping EUV, which will be in Q2.

由於第一季銷售水準較低，固定生產成本吸收不足，暫時影響了第一季的毛利率。除此之外，EUV 生產基礎設施也導致了吸收不足，只有在我們開始出貨 EUV（將在第二季）後，才能開始看到成本覆蓋。

The impact of underabsorption accounts for approximately 2.5 percentage points of gross margin. We expect our gross margin to recuperate in the coming quarters when sales volumes increase and EUV shipments (technical difficulty) starts ramping. R&D for the quarter will be about EUR185 million with other income, which consists of contributions from participants of the customer co-investment program, of EUR16 million -- sixteen.

吸收不足的影響約佔毛利率的2.5個百分點。我們預計，隨著銷售量增加和 EUV 出貨量（技術難度）開始增加，我們的毛利率將在未來幾季恢復。本季的研發費用約為 1.85 億歐元，其他收入（包括來自客戶共同投資計畫參與者的貢獻）為 1,600 萬歐元至 1,600 萬歐元。

We intend to spend a total of between EUR750 million and EUR800 million on R&D (technical difficulty) ['13], with our co-investment partners contributing EUR200 million in cash, thereby fully matching our incremental R&D (technical difficulty) spend on a cash basis. However, as explained in previous quarters, as a result of the required accounting treatment for the co-investment contribution, the effect on our statement of operations will vary, based upon the business volume of one of the key co-investment partners.

我們計劃在研發（技術難度）上總共投入 7.5 億歐元 ['13]，我們的共同投資夥伴將以現金方式出資 2 億歐元，從而以現金方式完全匹配我們增量的研發（技術難度）支出。然而，正如前幾個季度所解釋的那樣，由於共同投資貢獻所需的會計處理，對我們的經營報表的影響將有所不同，具體取決於其中一個主要共同投資夥伴的業務量。

The contribution of this partner will be included in the gross margin, whereas the contribution of the other two participants will be accounted for as Other Income under the Operating Income line. Actuals of the co-investment contribution to R&D will be reported at the end of each quarter. And SG&A will continue at the slightly elevated level of EUR63 million, as we anticipate about EUR6 million in additional expenses related to the pending Cymer acquisition.

該合夥人的貢獻將計入毛利率，而其他兩位參與者的貢獻將作為營業收入下的其他收入入帳。對研發的實際共同投資貢獻將在每季末報告。銷售、一般及行政費用將繼續保持在 6,300 萬歐元的略高水平，因為我們預計與即將進行的 Cymer 收購相關的額外費用約為 600 萬歐元。

Now going into 2013, we see sustained demand for the logic sector for continued 28 nanometer node RAMs. We also recognize the strategic importance of the transition Bio-logic makers to the litho-intensive 20 nanometer and below nodes, and the associated requirements for a minimum credible capacity which would be installed by year-end 2013.

進入 2013 年，我們看到邏輯領域對 28 奈米節點 RAM 的需求持續存在。我們也認識到生物邏輯製造商向光刻密集型 20 奈米及以下節點轉型的戰略重要性，以及在 2013 年底前安裝最低可靠容量的相關要求。

This, along with our EUV system delivery, plans up to 11 NXE3300 systems allow us to confidently plan our 2013 business as being very similar to 2012. This includes a very low level of demand from both memory sectors, with -- however, with a possibility of upside in NAND systems. That demand could (technical difficulty) later this year. And that is not right yet reflected in our current assessment of the 2013 potential sales levels.

加上我們的 EUV 系統交付，規劃最多可交付 11 台 NXE3300 系統，這使我們能夠自信地規劃 2013 年的業務，使其與 2012 年非常相似。這包括來自兩個記憶體領域非常低水準的需求，然而，NAND 系統有可能出現上行趨勢。這一需求可能會在今年稍後（因技術困難）實現。而這在我們對 2013 年潛在銷售水準的當前評估中尚未反映出來。

Lastly, I would also like to (td) high level of service and field options sales as we saw in the fourth quarter. Enabled in large part by the continued adoption across the installed base of our performance and housing field options, including throughput and overlay upgrades, this level of server sales will continue through 2013, supported in large part by our holistic lithography products, with some customers beginning to implement our integrated metrology and feedback loop solutions, providing a much-needed (technical difficulty) level of process control at the 20 nanometer node and below.

最後，我還想強調我們在第四季度看到的高水準服務和現場選項銷售。很大程度上得益於我們的性能和外殼領域選項（包括吞吐量和覆蓋升級）在整個安裝基礎上的持續採用，這種伺服器銷售水平將持續到2013年，這在很大程度上得益於我們的整體光刻產品，一些客戶開始實施我們的集成計量和反饋迴路解決方案，為20納米及以下節點提供急需的（技術難度）工藝。

And with that, I would like to turn it back over to you, Eric.

現在，我想把發言權交還給你，艾瑞克。

Thank you, Peter. So let me talk a bit about EUV but first about Cymer. In Q4, we announced our intent to acquire the light source supplier Cymer in a cash and stock deal. We currently are awaiting several international regulatory authority approvals while the clearance has been granted by CFIUS, the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, and the German antitrust authorities.

謝謝你，彼得。那麼讓我來談談 EUV，但先來談談 Cymer。在第四季度，我們宣布有意以現金和股票交易的方式收購光源供應商 Cymer。我們目前正在等待幾個國際監管機構的批准，而美國外國投資委員會 (CFIUS) 和德國反壟斷機構已經批准了這項申請。

In addition, a vote on the (technical difficulty) of the deal by the Cymer shareholders will take place on February 5. We expect that this acquisition will therefore be completed in the first half of this year, after having obtained the necessary approval in the US and the antitrust authorities, and in the different remaining foreign jurisdictions. In the meantime, we are continuing our long-term close cooperation with Cymer and, of course, are working on EUV.

此外，Cymer 股東將於 2 月 5 日就該交易的（技術難度）進行投票。因此，我們預計此次收購將在獲得美國和反壟斷機構以及其他不同外國司法管轄區的必要批准後，於今年上半年完成。同時，我們將繼續與 Cymer 保持長期密切合作，當然也致力於 EUV 的研究。

Both on the source and on the scanner, we moved ahead significantly in Q4 towards our 2014 production ramp goal. Firstly, progress has been made towards confirming what we call the source proof of performance, as we were able to double the source power in tests and simulation up to 60 watt with no indication of performance degradation. We, of course, need to reach our long-set target of 105 watt, which is equivalent to about 69 wafer per hour, but we are very encouraged, of course, by the data produced this quarter on 60 watts.

無論是在源頭還是掃描器方面，我們在第四季度都朝著 2014 年生產提升目標邁出了重要一步。首先，我們在確認所謂的性能源證明方面取得了進展，因為我們能夠在測試和模擬中將源功率加倍至 60 瓦，而沒有出現性能下降的跡象。當然，我們需要達到我們長期設定的 105 瓦目標，這相當於每小時約 69 片晶圓，但當然，本季在 60 瓦上產生的數據讓我們感到非常鼓舞。

Secondly, we have operated the first integrated UV source with a stable exposure power up to 40 watts with good dose control, enabling full field exposure over an extended period of time. Again, a fairly good piece of information here.

其次，我們運行了第一台整合紫外線源，其穩定的曝光功率高達 40 瓦，劑量控制良好，可實現長時間的全場曝光。再次，這是一條相當不錯的訊息。

Thirdly, we have completed the integration of our first scanner machine, the NXE3300, and have now met a number of significant overlay and imaging performance milestones. We have achieved imaging down to 14 nanometers, and mix and match immersion to EUV overlay results of below 5 nanometers.

第三，我們完成了第一台掃描器 NXE3300 的集成，現在已經達到了許多重要的疊加和成像性能里程碑。我們已經實現了低至 14 奈米的成像，並將浸沒式技術與低於 5 奈米的 EUV 疊加結果進行混合搭配。

These three areas of progress underpin our confidence to reach the 105 watt or the 69 wafer per hour target for 2014 production ramp. And these areas of progress support the preparation for shipment of our 11 production, NXE3300's. These 11 production units, I remind you, are not specified to reach immediately the 69 wafer per hour target specification at shipment, but will ship when assembly can be completed.

這三個領域的進步增強了我們的信心，使我們有信心在 2014 年實現 105 瓦或每小時 69 片晶圓的產量目標。這些進展為我們的 11 台產品 NXE3300 的出貨準備提供了支援。我提醒您，這 11 個生產單元並未指定在發貨時立即達到每小時 69 個晶圓的目標規格，但會在組裝完成時發貨。

Regarding the production planning phase, our goal is to ship about 8 to 12 systems in total in 2014. We have already booked 4 of these NXE3300 production systems, and intend to book several more in the next few months, as the requirements for our customers for EUV are becoming (technical difficulty) with each performance progress step being made.

關於生產計畫階段，我們的目標是在 2014 年總共出貨約 8 至 12 套系統。我們已經預訂了 4 套 NXE3300 生產系統，並計劃在未來幾個月內再預訂幾套，因為隨著每一步性能進步，我們的客戶對 EUV 的要求（技術難度）正在變得越來越大。

DRAM manufacturers, for instance, currently suggest a potential need for imaging (technical difficulty) to four layers, which is a bit better than we believed before, to be dedicated to EUV, at high 1X nodes. And the logic devicemakers may require between five, up to 17 EUV exposures at the nodes sub-14 nanometers.

例如，DRAM 製造商目前表示，在高 1X 節點下，可能需要對四層進行成像（技術難度），這比我們之前認為的要好一些，專用於 EUV。邏輯裝置製造商可能需要在 14 奈米以下的節點進行 5 到 17 次 EUV 曝光。

So parallel to EUV -- which remains the only cost-effective emerging solution for customers to do the next generation IC scaling any way -- we are developing 450 millimeter wafer form factor exposure tools. As Peter mentioned, our customer co-investment program is indeed enabling this, enabling this huge investment in normal business, investment in EUV, investment in 450 development. The 450 millimeter system's timing is targeted for 2016 pre-production, with production systems targeted for 2018, if, of course, customers confirm the ramp interest in an agreed-upon timeframe.

因此，與 EUV 並行——無論如何，這仍然是客戶進行下一代 IC 縮放的唯一具有成本效益的新興解決方案——我們正在開發 450 毫米晶圓尺寸曝光工具。正如彼得所提到的，我們的客戶共同投資計畫確實實現了這一點，實現了對正常業務、EUV 投資、450 開發的巨大投資。450 毫米系統預計在 2016 年進行預生產，生產系統預計在 2018 年推出，當然，前提是客戶在商定的時間內確認了產量提升興趣。

So, with this update on the technology and the product, with Peter, we are -- we would be pleased to take your questions.

因此，透過與 Peter 一起更新技術和產品，我們很樂意回答您的問題。

Thanks, Eric. Ladies and gentlemen, the operator will instruct you momentarily on the protocol for the Q&A session. But beforehand, I'd like to ask that you kindly limit yourself to one question with one short follow-up if necessary. This will allow us to get in as many callers as possible.

謝謝，埃里克。女士們，先生們，接線生將立即向您介紹問答環節的規程。但在此之前，我希望您只問一個問題，如有必要，請進行簡短的後續追蹤。這將使我們能夠接聽盡可能多的來電者。

Now, operator, could we have your instructions and then first question, please?

現在，接線員，您可以給我們指示一下，然後問第一個問題嗎？

(Operator Instructions) Jerome Ramel. Please state your company name followed by your question.

（操作員指示）傑羅姆·拉梅爾。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

Jerome Ramel from Exane BNP Paribas. One question, Eric. How do you see the installed capacity for the 28 nanometer node? And going forward, how do you see the size potentially in terms of wafer start demand for the 20 nanometer node?

法國巴黎銀行證券部的傑羅姆·拉梅爾（Jerome Ramel）有一個問題，埃里克。您如何看待28奈米節點的裝機量？展望未來，您認為 20 奈米節點的晶圓起始需求規模可能如何？

Okay, this is a very good question. So we estimate that we'll see a shipment that we are supposed to do up to Q3 of 2013. The total customers will reach about 320-ish-thousand wafer installed base of the 28 to 32 nanometer node, which 320,000, 340,000 wafer per month type capacity is a good, good node -- on the high side, but not exceptional.

好的，這是一個非常好的問題。因此我們估計我們將在 2013 年第三季之前看到一批貨物發貨。總客戶將達到約 32 萬片 28 至 32 奈米節點的晶圓安裝基數，其中每月 32 萬至 34 萬片晶圓的產能是一個良好的節點——偏高，但也不例外。

What surprised us, and the reason why we've been bullish this year -- and this is the first year in eight years or so, nine years -- we've guided the full-year, is indeed to your question. We are now seeing the buildup of capacity for 20 nanometer -- 20 nanometer, 22 nanometer -- in the same environment, in the foundry logic environment. And this is starting earlier than we would have expected in the first place. We can discuss later about the drivers of that.

令我們感到驚訝的是，我們今年一直看好的原因——這是八年或九年來第一次——我們對全年做出了預測，這確實是針對您的問題。我們現在看到，在相同的環境，即代工邏輯環境中，20 奈米（20 奈米、22 奈米）的產能正在不斷增強。這比我們最初預期的還要早。我們可以稍後再討論其驅動因素。

We expect the numbers of wafers to be installed with the current forecast that we have to be in the area of about only [60K] wafers -- well, I would say it's [40K to 60K] wafers -- will be installed by the first quarter of 2014. This is very important. First, [40K, 60K] is not a very large number, but it requires a lot of lithography machines, because each wafer of 20 nanometer, 22 nanometer, requires [double] (technical difficulty) machine, and a significant amount more of holistic lithography products, which is good margin products, to make the same numbers of wafers.

我們預計安裝的晶圓數量與目前的預測一致，即我們必須在大約只有 [60K] 片晶圓 — — 好吧，我想是 [40K 到 60K] 片晶圓 — — 將在 2014 年第一季安裝。這非常重要。首先，[40K，60K]不是一個很大的數字，但它需要大量的光刻機，因為每個20奈米、22奈米的晶圓，都需要[雙倍]（技術難度）的機器，以及大量更多的整體光刻產品，這些產品是利潤豐厚的產品，才能製造出同樣數量的晶圓。

So, you have a factor two here, which is, again, why we've said with some confidence that although we do not see good business in the PC arena, we do not see a pickup of the memory business at this time -- that doesn't mean it won't happen, but today, we don't see it. There's no signal. But the only thing we see is 20 nanometer, 22 nanometer, and this is good. And the multiplier intensity force us to guide that, in fact, the second half of the year will be so good that it compensates for the beginning half, which is slow.

所以，這裡有第二個因素，這也是為什麼我們有信心說，儘管我們沒有看到個人電腦領域的良好業務，但我們目前也沒有看到記憶體業務的回升——這並不意味著它不會發生，但今天，我們沒有看到它。沒有信號。但我們唯一看到的是 20 奈米、22 奈米，這很好。乘數強度迫使我們做出這樣的指導：事實上，下半年將會非常好，足以彌補上半年的緩慢。

And just maybe a follow-up on EUV. What's going to be the maximum capacity of shipments you will have by 2015? Are we talking about 24 units?

或許只是 EUV 的後續行動。到 2015 年，你們的最大出貨能力是多少？我們談論的是 24 個單位嗎？

So, for 2015, our simulation says that the market will probably need about 30 to 36, so we will have the capacity for 30 to 36. We could always do a bit more, but we don't think it would be necessary to overheat on that one. And then we will go towards a capacity about 60, 66 in the 2016, 2017 range.

因此，對於 2015 年，我們的模擬顯示市場可能需要大約 30 到 36 個，因此我們的產能將達到 30 到 36 個。我們總是可以做得更多，但我們認為沒有必要在這方面做得過分。到 2016 年和 2017 年，我們的運力將達到 60 至 66 架。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

Stephane Houri. Please state your company name followed by your question.

史蒂芬·霍里。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

Stephane Houri, Natixis. The first question I would have is on the visibility that you have on the orders. Because you have a rebound in sales starting in Q2, if I understand well, and an acceleration in [H2] because of the 2014 nanometer transition. Given your lead-time, is it fair to assume that the orders should rebound as early as in Q1? Thank you.

法國外貿銀行的 Stephane Houri。我的第一個問題是關於您對訂單的了解程度。如果我理解得沒錯的話，因為從第二季開始銷售額就會反彈，而且由於 2014 年奈米技術的轉變，[H2] 的銷售額會加速成長。考慮到您的交貨時間，是否可以合理地假設訂單最早在第一季就會反彈？謝謝。

Oh, absolutely. The orders will pick up in Q1. In our opinion, with Peter, we don't think the orders will pick up as much as they should. In another terms, the customers who we know, of course, will be somehow putting the orders within lead-time.

哦，當然了。第一季訂單將會增加。我們認為，由於彼得的存在，訂單量不會像預期的那樣增加。換句話說，我們認識的客戶當然會以某種方式在交貨時間內下訂單。

This project that we're talking about is such huge strategic project that we are building on commitment and on requested PO, buildup is more the administrative process that will go with it. So indeed, there is going to be a pickup in Q1 and we expect this to continue. But again, as you will not be able to easily use a standard lead-time of 6 to 9 months to guide to know what the revenue is going to be. The PO's will be coming, in fact, late to the ramp, because the ramp is so obviously discussed, committed, planned, agreed, that the PO has become a bit irrelevant on these one or two fundamental projects.

我們正在討論的這個項目是一個非常龐大的策略項目，我們是在承諾和要求的採購訂單的基礎上進行的，建立更多的是隨之而來的行政流程。因此，第一季確實會出現回升，我們預計這種趨勢將持續下去。但同樣，您將無法輕易地使用 6 到 9 個月的標準交貨時間來了解收入是多少。事實上，採購訂單會遲到，因為採購訂單顯然已經討論、承諾、計劃和同意，因此採購訂單對於這一兩個基礎項目來說已經變得有點無關緊要了。

Okay. And you've been talking about 8 to 12 EUV tools in 2014. Can you help us with the price they will be sold or they might be sold?

好的。您曾談到 2014 年將推出 8 到 12 台 EUV 工具。您能幫助我們了解它們的售價或可能的售價嗎？

A bit early, because these tools will have a huge amount of options, because you're talking about first production tools. And in this situation, usually, the customers will be very customizing the content of them. It -- I would say EUR80 million to EUR100 million could probably be an acceptable range. But unfortunately I won't be more precise at this moment.

有點早，因為這些工具將有大量的選項，因為你談論的是第一批生產工具。在這種情況下，客戶通常會對其內容進行非常個人化的客製化。我認為 8000 萬歐元到 1 億歐元可能是可以接受的範圍。但不幸的是，目前我無法給出更精確的答案。

And it could vary from customer to customer.

並且它可能因客戶不同而有所差異。

Okay. Okay, thank you very much.

好的。好的，非常感謝。

Gareth Jenkins. Please state your company name followed by your question.

加雷斯·詹金斯。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

Yes, it's Gareth Jenkins, UBS. So just a quick one on EUV again, coming back to the 8 to 12 tools for next year. I just wondered if you've seen any changes in terms of logic adoption of the EUV? Or whether we should still expect the vast majority to be DRAM? And if so, what's changed for logic? Thank you.

是的，他是瑞銀的 Gareth Jenkins。再次簡單介紹 EUV，回到明年的 8 到 12 種工具。我只是想知道您是否看到 EUV 邏輯採用方面的任何變化？或者我們仍應預期絕大多數是 DRAM？如果是這樣，邏輯上有什麼變化？謝謝。

No, in fact, we may have started to hint to last quarter, if I remember that DRAM was also keen with EUV because there is no choice. They absolutely have to have at least one layer on EUV just as a feasibility statement, so DRAM is always out. However, logic has, over the past, I would say, DRAM in a sense that, first, they also have now a need which they have realized, which is a minimum of, as we said, five layers to seven.

不，事實上，如果我記得的話，我們可能已經開始暗示上個季度了，當時 DRAM 也熱衷於 EUV，因為別無選擇。他們絕對必須在 EUV 上至少有一層，這只是可行性聲明，因此 DRAM 始終不在考慮範圍內。然而，我想說，邏輯在過去具有 DRAM，從某種意義上說，首先，他們現在也意識到了一種需求，正如我們所說，至少是五層到七層。

They all know -- so see that they have an economic issue, so there is now another incentive to go from [57 to 17]. And they have also a huge business attraction, meaning logic, is in fact, doing good at this moment. And they see themselves going in another node after the famous, what we call, 20 nanometer, but which will be called 1420. That node will then be followed quickly by a node which will be called something like 1011 or something. And that is the UV node. And there is going to be, or at this moment, the customers believe that there is an economic wave that will drive this.

他們都知道 — — 所以看到他們有經濟問題，所以現在有了另一個動力從 [57 到 17]。而且他們還具有巨大的商業吸引力，這意味著邏輯實際上目前表現良好。他們希望在著名的 20 奈米之後進入另一個節點，即我們所說的 1420 奈米。該節點後面會緊接著一個節點，該節點的名稱將類似於 1011 或類似的。這就是 UV 節點。而現在，或者此刻，客戶相信，有一股經濟浪潮將推動這項進程。

So, logic becoming hugely interested, putting most of our attention now on logic. But DRAM will get in. And if DRAM's business becomes more attractive, the PC business basically gets back and puts some attraction there, we could see DRAM trying to still be three, six months ahead of logic because they do have a need in it.

因此，人們對邏輯產生了極大的興趣，現在我們大部分的注意力都集中在邏輯上。但 DRAM 將會進入。如果 DRAM 業務變得更具吸引力，PC 業務基本上會恢復並產生一些吸引力，我們可以看到 DRAM 仍試圖比邏輯業務領先三到六個月，因為他們確實有需求。

So, Eric, can I just follow up on that then for production on the 10 nanometer, 11 nanometer node for EUV, is that a 2015 production?

那麼，Eric，我可以跟進 EUV 在 10 奈米、11 奈米節點上的生產嗎，這是 2015 年的生產嗎？

Well, so you will see the chips, the dye, the wafers in 2016. The buildup of the capacity of the factory will happen a year before.

好吧，那麼你將在 2016 年看到晶片、染料和晶圓。該工廠的產能建設將提前一年進行。

Great, thank you.

太好了，謝謝。

Sandeep Deshpande. Please state your company name followed by your question.

桑迪普·德什潘德。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

JPMorgan. Quick question for you, Eric. Would you say at this point that you are now more confident about doing the 69 wafers per hour production tools by the middle of next year compared to, say, six months ago? (technical difficulty)

摩根大通。問你一個快速問題，艾瑞克。您現在是否認為，與六個月前相比，您現在對明年年中實現每小時 69 個晶圓的生產工具更有信心？（技術難度）

(technical difficulty) dangerously because you -- we learn something and what you learn may take time to repair. And the way that we've moved to 60 watts, we've been able to justify in the convert our simulation systems. And our simulation systems and models now are converted up to 60 watts. And in fact, it can be easily now projected towards the 105 watt; even if we cannot prove it yet, the models are proven checked at 60 watts.

（技術難度）很危險，因為你——我們學到了一些東西，而你學到的東西可能需要時間來修復。而且，我們已經轉向 60 瓦，能夠證明轉換模擬系統的合理性。現在我們的類比系統和模型已轉換為高達 60 瓦的功率。事實上，現在可以輕鬆地將其投射到 105 瓦；即使我們目前還無法證明這一點，但這些模型已經通過了 60 瓦的檢查。

So first 60 watts is nearer to 105 watts, and secondly, it is very good theoretically. It has proven a model. So therefore, we absolutely strengthen our point that 2014 production should now be much higher probability than ever, indeed enough that the customers are, in fact, continuing to discuss with us this order placing for 2014, which are meant to be between eight and 12 in total, which by the way, is a good number. We don't need more. (multiple speakers) Customers don't need more any way; that would be the normal ramp of that technology.

所以首先60瓦比較接近105瓦，其次理論上來說非常好。它已證明是一種模型。因此，我們絕對強調我們的觀點，即 2014 年的產量現在應該比以往任何時候都高得多，事實上，客戶實際上正在繼續與我們討論 2014 年的訂單，總數將在 8 到 12 個之間，順便說一句，這是一個不錯的數字。我們不需要更多。（多位發言者）無論如何，顧客不需要更多；這將是此項技術的正常發展。

Thanks, Eric. I mean, just one follow-on to that. I mean, you're talking about the 60 watt having been shown in your labs. Is there a substantial technical difference between a 60 watt laser and 105 watt laser, I mean, based on gas or what power has to be -- I mean power clearly is different, but from any other elements are just substantially different, which could cause a risk from moving from 60 watt to 105 watts?

謝謝，埃里克。我的意思是，這只是一個後續問題。我的意思是，您說的是實驗室中顯示的 60 瓦。60 瓦雷射和 105 瓦雷射之間是否存在實質性的技術差異，我的意思是，基於氣體或功率——我的意思是功率顯然不同，但任何其他元素都有很大不同，這可能會導致從 60 瓦轉換為 105 瓦的風險？

Absolutely not. The concept is now going to remain the same up to 210 watts, which is that architecture that we just talked about. But from 60 to 210, we should not change the concept.

絕對不是。現在，這個概念將保持不變，最高可達 210 瓦，這就是我們剛才談到的架構。但是從60到210，我們不應該改變這個概念。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

Mahesh Sanganeria. Please state your company name followed by your question.

馬赫什·桑加內裡亞。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

RBC Capital Markets. Eric, question on your 20 nanometer. You said there will be [40K to 60K] by Q1. Can you tell us how many customers will that be who will be installing 20 nanometers?

加拿大皇家銀行資本市場。Eric，關於你的 20 奈米問題。您說過到第一季將會有 [40K 到 60K]。您能告訴我們有多少客戶將安裝 20 奈米嗎？

Oh, these are complicated questions. When now you are in the world of two customers, it's always difficult to tell you how many, but (laughter) -- how can I answer that question? I -- the days clearly (multiple speakers) --

哦，這些都是複雜的問題。當你現在身處兩個客戶的世界時，總是很難告訴你有多少個，但是（笑聲）──我該如何回答這個問題呢？我──那些日子很清楚（多位發言者）──

(multiple speakers) It's multiple customers, I would say.

（多位發言者）我想說，是多位顧客。

(multiple speakers) So let me say I think the question is that every one of the fundamental logic players is going to buy a [number submission], okay? But there is one or two who is going to buy more. Because at this moment, they have more confidence that they have reached numbers of design wins in their own environment.

（多位發言者）所以讓我說，我認為問題是每個基礎邏輯玩家都會購買 [數位提交]，好嗎？但有一兩個人打算買更多。因為此時，他們更有信心在自己的環境中取得了許多設計勝利。

Okay. And then one question for Peter. In terms of R&D expenses and modeling for Q1, you said you're getting EUR16 million recovery in Other Income. Can you give us some sense of what we will see that in the rest of the quarters for 2013?

好的。然後問彼得一個問題。就第一季的研發費用和建模而言，您說您將獲得 1600 萬歐元的其他收入。您能否向我們介紹一下 2013 年剩餘季度的情況？

About similar. It's about the same number.

大概類似。數量大致相同。

Similar?

相似的？

Yes, yes. So that -- like I also said in the introduction, the other part of the contribution, which I say one of the key contributors to the program will be in gross margin. And that will vary upon the business volume that we have with them, because that's for the particular accounting treatment that we (technical difficulty). So, this other income is only for two of the participants. The other contribution will be in gross margin, which will be -- we'll clarify at the end of the quarter based on the actuals.

是的，是的。所以——就像我在介紹中所說的那樣，貢獻的另一部分，我認為該計劃的關鍵貢獻者之一將是毛利率。這將根據我們與他們的業務量而有所不同，因為這是我們（技術難度）的特定會計處理。因此，這筆其他收入僅屬於兩名參與者。另一項貢獻將是毛利率，我們將在本季結束時根據實際情況進行澄清。

And would you say that that -- the gross margin contribution comes a little later in the second -- more in the second half in next year?

您是否認為毛利率貢獻會在明年下半年稍晚出現，更多時候會是明年下半年？

No. It fully depends on the timing of when the shipments happen. So basically, it's because that particular customer is also very large is a larger shareholder than the others. And that means that the accounting requirements state that you have to allocate that contribution to the business that we have with them. So if we start shipping tools, that means that those tools will get a, let's say, lift-up of the contribution that was intended to be the coverage for the R&D cost.

不。這完全取決於發貨的時間。所以基本上，這是因為該特定客戶也非常大，並且是比其他客戶更大的股東。這意味著會計要求規定您必須將該貢獻分配給我們與他們之間的業務。因此，如果我們開始運送工具，那就意味著這些工具將獲得原本用於支付研發成本的貢獻的提升。

(technical difficulty) That's per system, you will have an extra margin. You will -- and that is the way it is going to be accounted for. So it means (technical difficulty) depending on the business volume that we have with that customer, we are going to, you know, recognize the accounting-wise; we're going to recognize the contribution of, you know, the customer.

（技術難度）這是每個系統都會有額外的利潤。你會的——這就是事情的解釋方式。所以這意味著（技術難度）取決於我們與該客戶的業務量，我們將從會計角度進行識別；我們將認可客戶的貢獻。

Cash-wise is not going to be an issue. Cash-wise, it's going to be matched. So you will have, you could say, for some time, you could have a deferred accrual account, a deferred revenue account on the balance sheet, which will then be released to income in the next quarter when the shipments happen.

現金方面不會成為問題。從現金角度來說，將會匹配。因此，您可以說，在一段時間內，您可以在資產負債表上有一個遞延應計帳戶、一個遞延收入帳戶，然後在下個季度發貨時將其釋放到收入中。

Okay. Thank you very much.

好的。非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Jagadish Iyer. Please state your company name followed by your question. Your line is open, sir. Go ahead, please.

賈加迪什·艾爾。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。先生，您的線路已開通。請繼續。

(multiple speakers) Peter, you want to go to the next one?

（多位發言者）彼得，你想參加下一個嗎？

Next question.

下一個問題。

The next question will then come from Mr. Simon Schafer. Please state your company name followed by your question.

下一個問題來自西蒙·謝弗先生。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

One more try, Simon?

再試一次，西蒙？

Mr. Schafer, maybe you have muted your own line?

謝弗先生，也許您已將自己的線路靜音了？

Let's go to the next one.

我們進入下一個吧。

Okay. Mr. Francois Meunier. Please state your company name followed by your question.

好的。弗朗索瓦·默尼爾先生。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

Thank you for taking my question. The first one will be regarding EUV shipments for this year. I think the plan since last year was to ship 11 machines this year. If I read the statement this morning, it sounds a bit shaky like it's going to be 11 at best. Does it mean that there is some risk of delay into 2014? And if so, if you could confirm that some other shipments -- for some of those shipments, all the revenues will not be recognized this year.

感謝您回答我的問題。第一個是關於今年的 EUV 出貨量。我認為從去年開始的計劃是今年出貨 11 台機器。如果我今天早上讀到這份聲明，它聽起來有點不穩定，最多只有 11 個。這是否意味著存在延遲到 2014 年的風險？如果是這樣，如果您可以確認其他一些貨物——對於其中一些貨物，今年將無法確認所有收入。

And that's my first question. I've got a follow-up.

這是我的第一個問題。我有一個後續行動。

So, Peter will address the revenue recognition because I don't understand anything on this. So I will address the shipment part. (laughter) So the machine itself, as I said, has been purchase ordered on an as-is basis. So, we will ship when they are ready -- finished, assembled, as I said in the speech.

因此，彼得將討論收入確認問題，因為我對此一無所知。因此我將處理發貨部分。（笑聲）所以，正如我所說，機器本身是按原樣購買的。因此，正如我在演講中所說的那樣，當它們準備好、組裝好後，我們就會發貨。

The machines themselves, the scanners or the certainty of being available for next year is very high. I mean, we don't see a problem achieving that. The matching scanner to the proper source could be still a risk of execution. Whether we ship all of them or we miss two or three or four depends in fact what we're going to choose to do with the sources we can ship them here, and test them and qualify them, but then that takes more time to ship later to the customer.

機器本身、掃描器或明年可用的確定性非常高。我的意思是，我們認為實現這一目標沒有任何問題。將掃描器與正確的來源相符仍可能存在執行風險。我們是否全部發貨，還是錯過兩到四個，實際上取決於我們選擇如何處理這些貨源，我們可以將它們運送到這裡，對它們進行測試和鑑定，但隨後需要更多時間才能運送給客戶。

We can decide to, what we said, dropship the machine to the customer -- meaning you ship the machine, the scanner, on one hand and the laser on the other. But then you have to recognize -- well, in fact, I'm starting to answer your question (laughter) -- the machine when they are tested at the customer. So that may take more time.

我們可以決定，正如我們所說的，將機器直接運送給客戶——這意味著您一方面運送機器、掃描儀，另一方面運送雷射。但是你必須認識到——事實上，我開始回答你的問題了（笑聲）——當機器在客戶那裡進行測試時。所以可能需要更多時間。

So we are a bit less in control of what we wanted to be in the first place, as to the logistic of this. And then Peter will have to put the economic view to this, which is the recognition of revenue, to the logistic nightmare that I just discussed.

因此，對於我們最初想要實現的目標，以及這方面的後勤工作，我們控制力就沒那麼強了。然後彼得必須從經濟角度來看這個問題，也就是收入確認，以及我剛才討論的物流噩夢。

Yes. And it's what you know, Eric said -- a shipment for us is defined as the shipment of, you could say, the metal. That could be in two ways. That could be like Eric said, being integrated metal from Veldhoven from the Netherlands, or be (technical difficulty) parlayed, customers could say please save time. Don't ship everything to Veldhoven, integrate there, test it and then take it apart and ship it to us.

是的。正如你所知道的，艾瑞克說——對我們來說，一批貨物就是指一批金屬的貨物。這可能體現在兩個方面。這可能就像 Eric 所說的那樣，是來自荷蘭費爾德霍芬的整合金屬，或者是（技術難度）轉換，客戶可能會說請節省時間。不要將所有東西都運送到費爾德霍芬，在那裡進行整合、測試，然後將其拆開並運送給我們。

So, please ship the scanners separate from the EUV source, which we will call a dropshipment of the source -- which then means that the integration and showing that it works can only happen at the customer side, which also means that the revenue recognition takes place at that moment in time.

因此，請將掃描器與 EUV 源分開運送，我們將其稱為源的直接發貨 - 這意味著整合和顯示其工作只能在客戶端進行，這也意味著收入確認發生在那一刻。

And since we aren't completely sure as to what customers want, and what particular configuration of the source that they want, there is a risk that, from a revenue recognition point of view, some of those shipments may end up in the first quarter of 2014. And that might happen. So there is a bit of caution there. So you notice that.

而且由於我們並未完全確定客戶想要什麼，以及他們想要什麼樣的特定來源配置，因此從收入確認的角度來看，部分出貨量可能要到 2014 年第一季才能完成。這可能會發生。因此需要多加小心。所以你注意到了這一點。

And as a matter of fact, in our guidance, we took account of that, so we took a conservative number for the EUV shipments to be recognized in 2013, because it will always be a possibility that while we have shipped it, that we're still in a process of putting it all together and qualifying at the customer side, which might then happen in Q1 instead of Q4.

事實上，在我們的指導中，我們已經考慮到了這一點，所以我們對 2013 年 EUV 出貨量採取了一個保守的數字，因為儘管我們已經出貨，但我們仍然處於將其整合並在客戶端進行認證的過程中，這可能在第一季度而不是第四季度發生。

Okay. That's very clear. Now I've got a question for Eric if I may, about EUV and 14 nanometer, especially because, Eric, you say that 40 nanometer and below they could be like 5 to 17 EUV layers per chip. So basically, how much will be left for immersion? And what would be the share in your view of EUV versus immersion and all the other 14 nanometer when it ramps?

好的。這非常清楚。現在如果可以的話，我想問 Eric 一個關於 EUV 和 14 奈米的問題，特別是因為，Eric，你說 40 奈米及以下每個晶片可能有 5 到 17 個 EUV 層。那麼基本上，還剩下多少可以用於沉浸？您認為，當 EUV 技術發展到一定程度時，與浸沒式技術以及其他 14 奈米技術相比，EUV 技術的份額會是多少？

Let me answer the real question you have. Is it going to be growth for us when we ship EUV because immersion will still remain important? The answer is yes. I think we said it two or three quarters ago, that when EUV is introduced within its normal activities, there will be EUV, there will be immersion, there will be drive. And in this environment, we think we're going to have to go to another plateau of sales.

讓我來回答你真正的問題。當我們推出 EUV 時，這對我們來說是否會帶來成長，因為浸入式技術仍然很重要？答案是肯定的。我想我們在兩三個季度前就說過，當 EUV 在其正常活動中引入時，就會有 EUV，會有浸入式，會有驅動。在這種環境下，我們認為我們的銷售將必須再創高峰。

And I said, by the way, I would give you the new plateau solid on EUV we know for sure what we ship. But yes, it will be bigger than the plateau that we have already touched, which is the 5.5-ish. We think we'll get to another level of sales because, yes, immersion will remain.

順便說一句，我會給你關於 EUV 的新平台，我們確切知道我們會運送什麼。但是的，它將比我們已經觸及的平台更大，即 5.5 左右。我們認為我們的銷售將達到另一個水平，因為沉浸感仍將保留。

And when we ramp EUV, I think we also said it before in 2015, 2016 -- that EUV is definitely in 2015, 2016 is going to be significantly over the half of our sales in terms of the value. And in 2015, it could easily be up to that half level. So, yes, EUV shipments when we are ramping are going to be the most significant part of our sales numbers.

當我們加大 EUV 投入時，我想我們在 2015 年和 2016 年也說過——就價值而言，EUV 在 2015 年和 2016 年的銷售額肯定會大大超過我們銷售額的一半。而到2015年，這個數字很可能會輕鬆達到這水準的一半。所以，是的，當我們加強時，EUV 出貨量將成為我們銷售數字中最重要的部分。

Okay, so immersion goes down basically, compared to --?

好的，那麼與…相比，沉浸感基本上下降了？

Well, what Eric said is that the total sales will go up. So yes, we will cannibalize some of the leading-edge layers clearly. But don't forget we also see that if complexity increases, which it does, the number of layers also goes up.

嗯，艾瑞克說的是總銷售額將會上升。所以是的，我們確實會蠶食一些前沿層。但別忘了，我們還看到，如果複雜度增加，層數也會增加。

The total will increase. (multiple speakers) Yes, okay, sure.

總數將會增加。（多位發言者）是的，好的，當然。

So, it's -- yes, it could be lower but not -- but it would be very strange if it were more down half as compared to where we are today. So, it will be lower but it's going to be manageable. And on top of that, we see the EUV sales.

所以，是的，它可能會更低，但不會——但如果與今天相比下降一半以上，那將是非常奇怪的。因此，雖然金額會較低，但還是可以控制的。除此之外，我們也看到了 EUV 的銷售情況。

Okay. That's very clear. Thank you very much.

好的。這非常清楚。非常感謝。

Andrew Gardiner. Please state your company name followed by your question.

安德魯加德納。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

It's Barclays. I was interested if you could provide a bit more detail around the visibility being provided by some of the foundry customers at the moment. You've clearly indicated that your expectation for revenue there to ramp in the back half of the year, given the 20 nanometer buildout. I think looking at the way the foundries are communicating at the moment, one is being particularly vocal. The other perhaps slightly less so, given a customer shift.

是巴克萊銀行。我很想知道您是否可以提供一些目前由一些代工客戶提供的可見性的更多細節。您已經明確表示，考慮到 20 奈米的建設，您預計下半年的收入將會成長。我認為，從目前鑄造廠的溝通方式來看，其中一家公司特別直言不諱。考慮到客戶的變化，另一個情況可能稍微好一點。

But how much of your expectations for that second half ramp are being driven by that one who is being more vocal relative to the other one? Or are you assuming within your guidance that there is a strong ramp across those 2 leaders?

但是，你對下半場的期望有多少是由那個相對於另一個更直言不諱的人所驅動的呢？或者您在您的指導範圍內假設這兩位領導者之間存在著強勁的成長勢頭？

We are in our current guidance where we said at this moment, identifying about the same level of sales in the year, we are only inserting one large 20 nanometer buildup and the rest being very, very, very small. So in other terms, our point has always been to be conservative. So if the other players were to try to move to their natural market share versus the current one who is driving, we will sell much more units.

我們目前的指導方針是，目前我們確定今年的銷售水平大致相同，我們只插入一個大型 20 奈米結構，其餘部分都非常非常小。換句話說，我們的觀點一直是保守。因此，如果其他參與者試圖轉移他們的自然市場份額，而不是目前佔據主導地位的參與者，我們將會銷售更多的產品。

Understood. Well, just a quick follow-up, Peter, regarding tax. We've seen in the past, when your sales dropped to these kind of levels, that the tax rate increases. I was just wondering if you can give us any sort of steer as to how we should be modeling that for 2013, in particular, the early quarters when revenue is lower?

明白了。好吧，彼得，我只是想快速跟進一下有關稅收的問題。我們過去看到，當你的銷售額下降到這種水平時，稅率就會增加。我只是想知道您是否可以給我們一些指導，告訴我們應該如何為 2013 年，特別是收入較低的前幾季制定模型？

Well, as a matter of fact, at these sales levels, you are referring to times when sales were really dire. You talk about the first six months of 2009. And then you could argue that the effective tax rate had no relevance at all -- which, at the levels that we're talking about in Q1, is not the case.

嗯，事實上，在這樣的銷售水平下，您指的是銷售情況確實很糟糕的時期。您談論的是 2009 年上半年的情況。然後您可能會爭辯說，有效稅率根本沒有相關性——但就我們在第一季討論的水平而言，情況並非如此。

I think the fact that we have currently a resolution on the tax issues that were outstanding, in particularly Asia, means that we can now confidently recognize the taxes in that area on a lower level, which means that going forward for 2013, we guided you at around 12% tax. You could take 2 percentage points also around 10% -- 9% to 10% would be a good number for the total year.

我認為，我們目前已經解決了懸而未決的稅收問題，特別是亞洲的稅收問題，這意味著我們現在可以自信地將該地區的稅收保持在較低水平，這意味著，展望2013年，我們指導的稅率約為12%。您也可以取 2 個百分點，大約 10%——對於全年而言，9% 到 10% 是一個不錯的數字。

For the year as a whole? Okay, thank you very much.

就全年而言？好的，非常感謝。

Satya Kumar. Please state your company name followed by your question.

薩蒂亞·庫馬爾。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

From Credit Suisse. Thanks for taking my question -- a couple of them. I guess one of the customers that have indicated this very strong ramp of 20 nanometer has also indicated that the capital spending will be heavily first-half weighted, but two-thirds of their spending in the first half. From your commentary, it's clear that your second half that is stronger than the first half. Could you perhaps explain why there might be a bit of a difference in terms of what happens to you, versus what they're saying for their CapEx?

來自瑞士信貸。感謝您回答我的問題—有幾個問題。我想，一位表示 20 奈米製程將強勁成長的客戶也表示，資本支出將主要集中在上半年，但上半年的支出將佔總支出的三分之二。從你的評論中可以明顯看出，你的後半部比前半部更強。您能否解釋一下，為什麼您所經歷的情況與他們所說的資本支出可能會有一點不同？

We are a conservative bunch. Maybe that's what I can tell you. We are -- I know it's difficult to -- it may be also -- remember, we do not represent 100% of the CapEx. And if I'm not mistaken, there is some brick and mortar into the pie, which means there is potentially upfront thing that is done before we start shipping machines.

我們是一群保守的人。也許這就是我能告訴你的。我知道這很難，也可能很難，請記住，我們並不代表 100% 的資本支出。如果我沒記錯的話，這其中確實包含了一些實體部分，這意味著在我們開始運送機器之前，可能需要做一些前期工作。

But no, I would not say -- I would also be realistic -- we just finished, the world finished to -- not even finished -- the world is in process of finishing 28 nanometer. It would be a bit aggressive for me to say that we now ship hundreds of millions of 20 nanometer today, that that would not be natural. But for the customer in question, they may have to have significant CapEx to prepare the situation before the machine comes in.

但不，我不會這麼說——我也會現實一點——我們剛剛完成，世界完成了——甚至還沒有完成——世界正在完成 28 奈米的過程中。如果我說我們今天已經出貨了數億片 20 奈米晶片，那未免有些太過激進，因為這是不自然的。但對於有問題的客戶來說，他們可能必須在機器進場之前投入大量的資本支出來做好準備。

Okay. I was intrigued by one of the slides you showed on your presentation, which talked about the integrated metrology that they're used on. Could you talk a little bit about what they're doing to -- if you could quantify, that would be great -- to the ASPs of the emerging systems as we go from 28 to 20 nanometers?

好的。您在簡報中展示的一張投影片引起了我的興趣，其中討論了它們所使用的整合計量技術。您能否稍微談談他們在從 28 奈米到 20 奈米的過程中對新興系統的 ASP 所做的工作（如果您可以量化的話，那就太好了）？

And from a process flow standpoint is -- what exactly is that metrology doing? Is it replacing an optical 3D metrology that your company would have bought from another equipment supplier? Or is it in addition to other equipment that the chip companies are going to be buying for metrology?

從流程的角度來看－計量到底扮演什麼角色？它是否會取代貴公司從其他設備供應商購買的光學 3D 計量設備？或者它是晶片公司為計量而購買的其他設備的補充？

Okay, so let me answer the first question first. And Peter will discuss the margin impact of this type of product. No, we would not say that it directly replaces metrology. Metrology -- the segment metrology, as it is known in the industry, is diagnostic metrology segment.

好的，那我先回答第一個問題。Peter 將討論此類產品對利潤的影響。不，我們不會說它直接取代計量學。計量－業界所熟知的分段計量，即診斷計量分段。

It's every day or so, you take a wafer, you make an extremely deep analysis. You understand what the recipes impact are. You change the recipe. So it's an involved diagnostic, long lead-time, deep, involved process capability. And we don't have that.

每天左右，你都會拿一塊晶圓，進行極為深入的分析。您了解食譜的影響是什麼。你改變食譜。因此，它是一種涉及診斷、較長準備時間、深入且涉及製程能力的技術。而我們沒有這個。

What we insert are machines which are able on-the-fly to correct a process failure by resetting the numbers of knobs into a scanner. We call it metrology because indeed you have to measure and correct, but the real term should have been a closed loop system.

我們插入的機器能夠透過重置掃描器中的旋鈕數量來即時糾正流程故障。我們稱之為計量學，因為確實需要測量和校正，但真正的術語應該是一個閉環系統。

Before, they didn't need to use closed loop, because the machines did not need to be corrected. But now the processes are so tight, the window of processes are tight, that they need to be expanded and they need to be controlled. And therefore, there is a new activity that is called closed loop. And we are happy to be a big player into this.

以前他們不需要使用閉環，因為機器不需要校正。但現在流程非常緊張，流程窗口非常緊張，需要擴展，需要控制。因此，出現了一種稱為閉環的新活動。我們很高興能在這個領域發揮重要作用。

And it is true that we've done, in the past year or so, a very small amount of business in that segment. In total, I would say, with up to 200 million or so in total business of this type of activity -- 200 million, 220 million. Now, it's real. So we know the terms are -- there is going to be significant impact as we go. And when the business goes from 20 nanometers, it's already big. And at 14, it's going to be even worse or better for us. So we will go north of 400 million in due time. So this is real additional business, which indeed have an impact in margins.

確實，在過去一年左右的時間裡，我們在該領域的業務量非常小。總的來說，我想說，這類活動的總業務額高達 2 億左右——2 億、2.2 億。現在，它是真實的。所以我們知道這些條款——隨著我們的推進將會產生重大影響。當業務從 20 奈米開始發展時，規模就已經很大了。到了 14 歲，我們的情況可能會變得更糟，也可能會變得更好。因此，我們將會適時突破 4 億。所以這是真正的附加業務，確實對利潤率有影響。

So, Peter?

那麼，彼得？

Yes. In -- when you talk about the ASPs and not so much margin, because there are higher margin products. When you look at the particular slide that you are referring to, where you see these two machines, the scanner ran alongside and what we call the YieldStar metrology tool on the other side, you have to remember that is not one single tool that we are selling. It is hardware across a lot of software.

是的。當您談論 ASP 時，利潤率並不高，因為有利潤率更高的產品。當您查看所指的特定幻燈片時，您會看到這兩台機器，掃描器並排運行，另一側是所謂的 YieldStar 計量工具，您必須記住，我們銷售的並不是單一的工具。它是跨越許多軟體的硬體。

So it's a combination of products that we are selling. But if you would have a fully loaded 28 nanometer machine compared to a fully loaded 20 nanometer machine, which would include this YieldStar and the feedback loops that Eric gave, you would look at, depending on the customer and the application, a difference in list price of between EUR7 million and EUR10 million between the two. Now, of course, then it depends on the customer contact that you have, the volumes that they are taking, what discounts that they're getting, but that is the kind of the difference that you need to think of.

所以這是我們銷售的產品的組合。但是，如果您擁有一台滿載的 28 奈米機器與一台滿載的 20 奈米機器進行比較，其中包括這個 YieldStar 和 Eric 提供的反饋迴路，那麼根據客戶和應用的不同，您會發現兩者的標價差異在 700 萬歐元到 1000 萬歐元之間。現在，當然，這取決於您擁有的客戶聯絡人、他們所獲得的數量、他們獲得的折扣，但這就是您需要考慮的差異。

Okay, thank you very much.

好的，非常感謝。

Weston Twigg. Please state your company name followed by your question.

韋斯頓·特維格。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

Just a quick follow-on to the last line of questioning. On the holistic lithography and the upgrades, and the revenue contribution, I think you said that you expect to stay at this EUR257 million level in terms of service and field options. But wouldn't it make sense that that would increase as you get this 20 nanometer ramp coming into the back half of the year? In other words, why would you expect that line of revenue to be flat? Or is it -- does it just come into the (technical difficulty) sales revenue?

這只是對最後一條問題的快速跟進。關於整體光刻和升級以及收入貢獻，我想您說過，您預計在服務和現場選項方面將保持在 2.57 億歐元的水平。但是，隨著下半年 20 奈米製程的進步，這一數字還會增加，這不是很合理嗎？換句話說，為什麼您會認為這條營收線會持平？還是——它只是進入（技術難度）銷售收入？

Well, you have to look at it in the context of that the fourth quarter was the highest ever. Yes? So I mean, this did indeed in the fourth quarter show some incidental extra revenue. But where it would be when you take the average from 2011 and 2012, we are significantly lower. Now I think that is -- that average will go up.

嗯，你必須從第四季創歷史新高的角度來看這個問題。是的？所以我的意思是，這確實在第四季度顯示了一些偶然的額外收入。但如果你取 2011 年和 2012 年的平均值，我們的數字就會低很多。現在我認為——平均值將會上升。

So that is basically what we are saying. And yes, we are conservative in a sense, because like I said earlier, EUR7 million to EUR10 million addition to the sales price from a list price point of view, is also something that customers need to get their hands around, and basically need to realize that they need it. We think that they need it, but we feel we can, on average, keep the [EUR250 million] level per quarter, which is a record.

這就是我們所說的基本內容。是的，從某種意義上說我們是保守的，因為就像我之前說的，從標價的角度來看，除了銷售價格之外，700 萬歐元到 1000 萬歐元也是客戶需要掌握的東西，基本上需要意識到他們需要它。我們認為他們需要這筆錢，但我們認為平均而言，我們可以保持每季 [2.5 億歐元] 的水平，這是一個紀錄。

Okay. And then just staying on these features, is there something that your competitor, your main competitor in this space, has available? Or is this entirely different than what they can offer?

好的。然後就這些功能而言，您的競爭對手，您在這個領域的主要競爭對手是否有可用的功能？或者這與他們所能提供的完全不同？

Well, as far as we know, that's not available.

嗯，據我們所知，這是不可行的。

Okay. And then just finally, when you talked about the 11 EUV tools that are expected to ship this year, and the contribution of EUR700 million, you also mentioned that perhaps you've slipped some of that EUR700 million into 2014. Can you tell us how much you're expecting for 2013 and how much for 2014?

好的。最後，當您談到今年預計出貨的 11 台 EUV 工具以及 7 億歐元的貢獻時，您也提到，也許您已將其中一部分資金投入到 2014 年。您能告訴我們您對 2013 年和 2014 年的期望是多少嗎？

Good question. We have and what we told you as sales levels for 2013, we took a conservative amount, about [EUR215 million] off the EUR700 million to come to the sales levels 2013 similar to 2012.

好問題。我們已經告訴您 2013 年的銷售水平，我們採取了一個保守的數額，從 7 億歐元中削減了約 [2.15 億歐元]，以使 2013 年的銷售水平與 2012 年相似。

Very helpful. Thank you so much.

非常有幫助。太感謝了。

Jagadish Iyer. Please state your company name followed by your question.

賈加迪什·艾爾。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

Yes, Piper Jaffray. Thanks for taking my question. Sorry about the previous one. Two questions, Eric. So first, if you look at your sales guidance for 2013, and given your foundry war, which is ongoing and the capital intensity that is happening, given that there's going to be at least 1.7 times more intensive to the prior notes, your guidance seems to be a little bit kind of soft. Is that a fair assessment that you're being very conservative here? Can you talk about the puts and takes? And then I have a follow-up.

是的，Piper Jaffray。感謝您回答我的問題。對於之前的事情，我很抱歉。有兩個問題，埃里克。首先，如果你看一下 2013 年的銷售指導，考慮到正在進行的代工戰爭和正在進行的資本密集度，考慮到其密集度將至少是之前預測的 1.7 倍，你的指導似乎有點軟。您在這裡表現得非常保守，這是一個公平的評價嗎？能談談其中的利弊嗎？然後我有一個後續問題。

Yes. Well, our philosophy and style is not to bet and have an opinion, and then say it's a gutsy opinion or it's not. We're trying to guide you only on factual data that we have. And the factual data is, we have one segment and a half, which one segment is, you've all guessed it, [in the] 20 nanometer leading company.

是的。嗯，我們的理念和風格是不打賭，不發表意見，然後說這是一個大膽的意見或不是。我們試圖僅根據我們掌握的事實數據為您提供指導。事實數據是，我們佔據一個半細分市場，哪一個細分市場，你們都猜到了，是20奈米領先的公司。

And then you have a percentage of our 11 machines. And Peter was nice enough to tell you exactly which percentage he talked about. So you take this big account at 20 nanometer with our own understanding of how many units you really need to do to do these [40K] wafers. You add this X percent of the EUV machine, you add the standard business that we have, and you come up with about the same sales level.

然後你就擁有了我們 11 台機器的一定比例。彼得很好心地告訴你他所談論的具體百分比。因此，您可以根據我們對生產這些 [40K] 晶圓真正需要多少單位的理解，考慮 20 奈米這個大問題。你加上這 X% 的 EUV 機器，再加上我們現有的標準業務，你就會得到大致相同的銷售水準。

So that's what we guided. When we saw that number, we said we have to guide you because it's a true statement. It's a true number. So you can translate my point by saying there is indeed upside opportunities. The first upside opportunity is that the other logic people will consider this acceptable to leave only one and one of them take over the majority share of 20 nanometer so early in the game. So, that's an upside.

這就是我們所指導的。當我們看到這個數字時，我們說我們必須指導你，因為這是一個真實的陳述。這是一個真實的數字。因此，你可以這樣理解我的觀點：確實存在上行機會。第一個上行機會是，其他邏輯人員會認為只留下一個是可以接受的，並且其中一個可以在遊戲初期佔據 20 奈米的大部分份額。所以，這是一個好處。

The second upside, which we mentioned in the press release, is that if the PC business does pick up a bit, due to the new form factors, you will see immediately a reaction in every people who do microprocessors, you know, who will benefit from that, and memory. DRAM will start benefiting. But then you have -- means you have a multiplier in the NAND business for the people doing and successful at solid-state drive. Because solid-state drive will be multiplied by the PC new form factor performance.

第二個好處，我們在新聞稿中提到過，就是如果個人電腦業務因為新的形式因素而有所回升，你會立即看到每個從事微處理器和記憶體業務的人都會做出反應，你知道，他們會從中受益。DRAM 將開始受益。但這樣你就有了——這意味著，對於那些在固態硬碟領域做出貢獻並取得成功的人來說，你在 NAND 業務中擁有乘數效應。因為固態硬碟將會透過PC新外型尺寸倍增效能。

So again, that is not in the numbers and this is an opportunity. Okay. So that will be if you are -- want to hear from me the upside. The downside is that we are in a business now which is extremely granular. That is if we make a mistake in judgment, it's a big one. And it could be a big one because like a fab is late by 3 to 6 months just because the concrete did not pour, or the contractor to the foundry business with whom we are working is having nightmares and et cetera, something bad has happened, and in which case, we have a negative to the guidance.

所以，這又不是數字問題，而是一個機會。好的。所以，如果你想──想聽聽我的意見。缺點是我們現在所處的業務極為精細。也就是說，如果我們判斷失誤，後果將不堪設想。這可能是一個大問題，因為一個晶圓廠可能因為混凝土沒有澆築而延遲 3 到 6 個月，或者與我們合作的鑄造業務的承包商正在做噩夢等等，發生了一些不好的事情，在這種情況下，我們對指導產生負面影響。

So again, we don't want to put any judgment to the upside and the downside. But I hope by doing this very candid description of what is in our numbers and how we built it up, you, yourself, in fact, should make the number for the year.

因此，我們不想對好的方面和壞的方面做出任何判斷。但我希望，透過對我們的數字以及我們如何建立這些數字進行如此坦率的描述，您自己實際上應該能夠計算出今年的數字。

That's very helpful, Eric. So, as a follow-up, I just want to get an understanding. In terms of the DRAM customers, what is the sense of urgency are you seeing for the DRAM guys to be looking at EUV, given that the industry is somewhat consolidated and it's in their best interest to see pricing continue to get better for their own profitability? What is the sense that you see that in terms of them trying to accelerate EUV at this point of time? Thanks.

這非常有幫助，埃里克。因此，作為後續，我只是想獲得了解。就 DRAM 客戶而言，鑑於該行業已經相當整合，並且看到價格繼續上漲以提高盈利能力符合 DRAM 廠商的最佳利益，您認為 DRAM 廠商關注 EUV 的緊迫感如何？您認為他們此時嘗試加速 EUV 有什麼意義？謝謝。

I guess the DRAM business, or the memory business because it's more and more merging somehow in there, is looking for a differentiated activity. So they have results probably -- as you call this, the consolidation. I guess that they have numbers of players which have reached some kind of an equilibrium. So none of them would want to continue losing money.

我猜 DRAM 業務或記憶體業務（因為它以某種方式越來越多地合併）正在尋找差異化的活動。因此他們可能會取得成果——正如你所說的那樣，鞏固。我猜想他們的球員數量已經達到了某種平衡。所以他們都不想繼續虧錢。

Why they continue losing money and the prices may take time to get up, because, by the way, the DRAM prices are getting up in the last three or four weeks. So there is an upside coming on. Something is happening at this moment. The reason why they, however, had another bad six months or so is because the PC business, in fact, was surprisingly weak. If you remember, we started the year last year where everybody was thinking that the PC business would grow by 5% or 10%, and then it happened to be flat or shrinking. So that created a problem that they are trying to resolve.

為什麼他們繼續虧損，而且價格可能需要一段時間才能上漲，因為順便說一句，DRAM 價格在過去三到四周一直在上漲。因此，好處即將出現。此刻有事正在發生。然而，他們又經歷了六個月左右的糟糕表現，原因是個人電腦業務實際上出奇地疲軟。如果你還記得的話，去年年初的時候，每個人都認為個人電腦業務會成長 5% 或 10%，但結果卻是持平或萎縮。所以這就產生了一個他們正在努力解決的問題。

So, what is happening now is a -- one will not continue driving the business with the same method which is overinvesting, so that they try to take the other guy out of business. I don't think they will do this any longer. But I start seeing more interest to differentiate themselves with the way their chips, which also include a bit of process.

所以，現在發生的情況是——人們不會繼續用過度投資的方式來推動業務，所以他們試圖讓其他人退出這個行業。我認為他們不會再這樣做了。但我開始看到越來越多的人對透過晶片的方式進行區分感興趣，其中也包括一些製程。

This is very visible in the NAND business. You have noticed that in the NAND business they have gone now to trying to differentiate on the design of their chips, on the numbers of bits per sale, on the software drivers, et cetera. And you can start seeing this in the DRAM.

這在 NAND 業務中非常明顯。您可能已經注意到，在 NAND 業務中，他們現在已經開始嘗試在晶片設計、每銷售位數、軟體驅動程式等方面進行區分。您可以在 DRAM 中看到這一點。

So if you have a DRAM idea on the EUV shrink capability is not only cost but it's also an enabler of something, like power consumption, speed of access, et cetera, then you could show some huge interest. And we started to see some of that, but I must say I don't have specific to tell you that you should consider. I mean I have -- there is something in there, I don't know. I see questions but which leads to this idea.

因此，如果您對 DRAM 的 EUV 縮小能力有想法，它不僅能降低成本，還能提高某些方面，例如功耗、存取速度等等，那麼您可能會表現出極大的興趣。我們開始看到其中的一些，但我必須說我沒有具體的東西可以告訴你你應該考慮什麼。我的意思是──裡面有一些東西，我不知道。我看到了問題，但這導致了這個想法。

Thank you so much for the comment. Really helpful.

非常感謝您的評論。真的很有幫助。

I think we, ladies and gentlemen, have time for one more quick question. We'll try to squeeze another one in. If you didn't get through and you have remaining questions, of course, feel free to call the Investor Relations Department, and we'd be glad to get back to you as soon as we possibly can.

女士們、先生們，我想我們還有時間再問一個簡短的問題。我們會盡力再擠進一個。如果您沒有接通並且還有其他問題，當然，請隨時致電投資者關係部，我們會盡快回覆您。

So, operator, can we have the last call, please, or last question?

那麼，接線員，我們可以進行最後一次通話，或是最後一個問題嗎？

Of course, Mr. DeYoung. The last question comes from Mr. Lee Simpson. Please state your company name followed by your question.

當然，DeYoung 先生。最後一個問題來自李辛普森先生。請說明您的公司名稱，然後提出您的問題。

It's Lee Simpson at Jefferies. I really just wanted to try and ask a question around DFM risks. I mean if you look to a lot of the EDA suppliers, they're talking about increasing DFM risks around advanced newer development, such as at 20 nanometers, 22 nanometers and more so at 14 nanometers. Things increasing like DRC rules and the complication with fill flow for new features like finfeds.

我是傑富瑞的李辛普森。我真的只是想嘗試問一個有關 DFM 風險的問題。我的意思是，如果你看看很多 EDA 供應商，他們正在談論圍繞先進的新開發的 DFM 風險增加，例如 20 奈米、22 奈米以及 14 奈米。諸如 DRC 規則之類的事情不斷增加，並且諸如 finfeds 之類的新功能的填充流程也變得越來越複雜。

I suppose history tells you there's always threats to the speed of design progression for new notes, but I wonder if you could shed some light on what might be different this time, and how this, if at all, really transfers to slow down in development of chips at each node, and whether or not that has an onward impact to the ramp of the 20 nanometer node up to, let's say, 320,000 wafer starts per month similar to 28 nanometer node?

我想歷史告訴我們，新晶片的設計進展速度總是受到威脅，但我想知道您是否可以解釋一下這次可能有什麼不同，以及這種不同如何真正減緩每個節點的晶片開發速度，以及這是否對 20 奈米節點的產量增長產生持續影響，比如說，每月 320,000 片晶圓的產量與 28 奈米節點的產量相似？

Well, you put a tough responsibility on me. Because usually when you close a call, you want to close on good news. And you come up with a possibility for me to say something negative. (laughter) No, I try my best.

好吧，你賦予了我艱鉅的責任。因為通常當你結束通話時，你希望聽到好消息。而你卻讓我有可能說出一些負面的話。（笑聲）不，我盡力了。

The negative part of your question is really at the end of the day, it could create an inflation of cost. You mentioned issues, design manufacturing issues, which require, in fact, investment. So there is indeed a pressure on cost on all of us, our customers, but all of us are trying to solve that problem by bringing solutions to the market, which do not add an inflation of cost.

您的問題的消極部分實際上最終可能會導致成本膨脹。您提到的問題，設計製造問題，實際上需要投資。因此，我們所有人，我們的客戶，確實都面臨著成本壓力，但我們所有人都在努力透過向市場推出解決方案來解決這個問題，而不會增加成本。

So that clearly is a pressure. But let's conclude with the positive news. We see this as a huge business opportunity. The discussion we just had on this metrology closed loop is exactly your point. It has triggered the possibility for us to go from EUR100 million to EUR200 million to EUR400 million potential sales of these high-valued product.

所以這顯然是一種壓力。但讓我們以正面的消息來結束。我們認為這是一個巨大的商機。我們剛才就計量閉環進行的討論正是您的觀點。它為我們將這些高價值產品的潛在銷售額從 1 億歐元提高到 2 億歐元甚至 4 億歐元創造了可能性。

Secondly, at the moment when the wall is too big, EUV comes up and EUV does reduce the need for these competitive situations. So, ASML is usually well-positioned to resolve the complexity that you just mentioned.

其次，當障礙過高時，EUV 就會出現，而 EUV 確實會減少這些競爭情況的需要。因此，ASML 通常能夠很好地解決您剛才提到的複雜性。

So I mean, this goes back to an earlier question I think you got that holistic lithography should probably increase, bearing aside that perhaps Q4 was the high tide so far in that sales level.

所以我的意思是，這又回到了之前的問題，我認為你提出的整體光刻技術應該會增加，儘管第四季度可能是迄今為止該銷售水平的高峰。

Absolutely.

絕對地。

Yes, okay.

是的，好的。

And Eric had talked about the DFM solution, the holistic litho products have two elements if you look at our presentation. One is to widen the process control window in your preparation for manufacturing, which really addresses your design for manufacturing issues. But in rolling this out, we also discovered a second element, which is basically the control of your process parameters, while you are in manufacturing.

Eric 曾談到 DFM 解決方案，如果你看我們的演示，你會發現整體光刻產品有兩個要素。一是在製造準備過程中擴大製程控制窗口，這可以真正解決製造設計問題。但在實施過程中，我們也發現了第二個要素，即製造過程中對製程參數的控制。

So, it has two elements to it. And I think that is -- the latter is more a, let's say, a finding of the last few years, while the first part, you know, needing to find a solution for the design for manufacturing issues, that was really why we did the Brion acquisition. But it evolved into the latter with the YieldStar product and the closed loops.

所以，它有兩個要素。我認為後者更像是過去幾年的發現，而第一部分，你知道，需要找到解決製造問題的設計方案，這也是我們收購 Brion 的真正原因。但隨著 YieldStar 產品和閉環的出現，它演變成了後者。

Great. Gentlemen, thanks so much.

偉大的。先生們，非常感謝。

Good. You bet you. Thank you. On behalf of the Board of management here at ASML, I'd like to thank you for joining us today on the call. And operator, if you'd formally conclude the call for me, we would appreciate it, thanks.

好的。你敢打賭。謝謝。我謹代表 ASML 管理委員會感謝您今天參加我們的電話會議。接線員，如果您能幫我正式結束通話，我們將非常感激，謝謝。

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the ASML 2012 fourth-quarter and annual results conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

女士們、先生們，ASML 2012 年第四季和年度業績電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。