聯華電子 (UMC) 2020 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Welcome, everyone, to UMC's 2020 Fourth quarter Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) For your information, this conference call is now being broadcast live over the Internet. Webcast replay will be available within an hour after the conference is finished. Please visit our website, www.umc.com under the Investor Relations, Investors, Events section.

歡迎大家參加聯電 2020 年第四季度財報電話會議。 （操作員說明）供您參考，此電話會議正在通過互聯網進行現場直播。會議結束後一小時內將提供網絡直播重播。請訪問我們的網站 www.umc.com 的“投資者關係”、“投資者”、“活動”部分。

And now I would like to introduce Mr. Michael Lin, Head of Investor Relations at UMC. Mr. Lin, please begin.

現在我想介紹一下聯華電子投資者關係主管Michael Lin先生。林先生，請開始。

Thank you, and welcome to the UMC's conference call for the fourth quarter of 2020. I'm joined by Mr. Jason Wang, the President of UMC; and Mr. Qi Dong Liu, the CFO of UMC.

謝謝大家，歡迎來到聯華電子 2020 年第四季度電話會議。聯華電子總裁 Jason Wang 先生也加入了我的行列；以及聯電首席財務官劉啟東先生。

In a moment, we will hear our CFO present the fourth quarter financial results, followed by our President's key message to address UMC's focus and the first quarter 2021 guidance. Once our President and the CFO complete their remarks, there will be a Q&A session.

稍後，我們將聽到我們的首席財務官介紹第四季度的財務業績，然後是我們的總裁關於解決 UMC 重點和 2021 年第一季度指導的關鍵信息。我們的總裁和首席財務官完成發言後，將進行問答環節。

UMC's quarterly financial reports are available at our website, www.umc.com, under the Investors financial section. During this conference, we may make forward-looking statements based on management's current expectations and beliefs. These forward-looking statements are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially, including the risk that may be beyond the company's control. For this risk, please refer to UMC's filing with the SEC in the U.S. and the ROC security authorities.

UMC 的季度財務報告可在我們的網站 www.umc.com 的“投資者財務”部分下獲取。在這次會議期間，我們可能會根據管理層當前的預期和信念做出前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述受到許多風險和不確定因素的影響，這些風險和不確定因素可能導致實際結果出現重大差異，包括可能超出公司控制範圍的風險。此風險請參考聯華電子向美國證券交易委員會及中華民國安全機關備案。

Now I would like to introduce UMC's CFO, Mr. Qi Dong Liu, to discuss UMC's fourth quarter 2020 financial results.

現在請聯電首席財務官劉啟東先生與大家討論聯電2020年第四季度的財務業績。

Thank you, Michael. I'd like to go through the Q4 2020 investor conference presentation material, which can be downloaded from our website. Starting on Page 3. Q4 of 2020, consolidated revenue was TWD 45.3 billion, with a gross margin at 23.9%. The net income attributable to the stockholder of the parent was TWD 11.2 billion, and earnings per ordinary share was TWD 0.92. Capacity utilization rate in Q4 climbed to 99% compared to 97% in Q3.

謝謝你，邁克爾。我想瀏覽一下 2020 年第四季度投資者會議的演示材料，可以從我們的網站下載。從第 3 頁開始，2020 年第 4 季度合併收入為新台幣 453 億元，毛利率為 23.9%。歸屬於母公司股東的淨利潤為112億新台幣，普通股每股收益為0.92新台幣。與第三季度的 97% 相比，第四季度的產能利用率攀升至 99%。

And if you turn to Page 4, our quarterly comparison financial performance. Revenue increased about 1% after the NT dollar impact reached TWD 45.3 billion. Gross margin, 23.9% or TWD 10.8 billion. Because of some employee-related compensation and also share-based scheme, our operating expenses increased to TWD 6.3 billion in the fourth quarter of 2020. And as a result, operating income is around TWD 5.6 billion or 12.4%. And because of the strong submarket -- mark-to-market valuation has contributed to most of our nonoperating income in Q4 '20 which was TWD 5.6 billion. So our net income in Q4 last year was TWD 10.9 billion and the net income attributable to the stockholder of the parent is TWD 11.2 billion. EPS is TWD 0.92.

如果你翻到第 4 頁，我們的季度財務業績比較。受新台幣影響達453億新台幣後，營收增長約1%。毛利率 23.9% 或新台幣 108 億元。由於一些與員工相關的薪酬和基於股份的計劃，我們的運營費用在 2020 年第四季度增加到 63 億新台幣。因此，營業收入約為 56 億新台幣或 12.4%。而且由於強大的子市場——按市值計價的估值為我們 20 年第四季度的大部分非營業收入做出了貢獻，為 56 億新台幣。所以我們去年第四季度的淨利潤是109億新台幣，歸屬於母公司股東的淨利潤是112億新台幣。每股收益為新台幣 0.92 元。

On Page 5, which is the year-over-year comparison, our revenue grew 19.3% in NT dollars to TWD 176.8 billion. In U.S. dollars, the growth rate was roughly around 26%. And among the growth, around half is contribute by the combination of our USJC in Japan. And gross margin grew to almost 8 percentage points to 22.1% or TWD 38.99 billion.

在第 5 頁，即同比比較，我們的收入以新台幣計算增長 19.3% 至新台幣 1,768 億元。以美元計算，增長率大致在26%左右。在增長中，大約一半是由我們在日本的 USJC 的合併貢獻的。毛利率增長近 8 個百分點至 22.1% 或新台幣 389.9 億元。

Operating expenses is similar to the revenue. We also have some combined expenses from USJC, and increased year-over-year around 6.6%. Operating income jumped growth 369% to TWD 22 billion. Gross operating margin rate was 12.5%. Net nonoperating income is around TWD 5.9 billion, which is a similar reason as the Q4 result. And net income attributable to the stockholder of the parent for the full year was TWD 29.2 billion or 16.5%, and full year EPS is TWD 2.42 per share.

營業費用與收入相似。我們還有一些來自 USJC 的綜合支出，同比增長約 6.6%。營業收入躍升 369% 至新台幣 220 億元。毛利率為12.5%。淨營業外收入約為新台幣 59 億元，這與第四季度的結果類似。全年歸屬於母公司股東的淨利潤為新台幣292億元或16.5%，全年每股收益為新台幣2.42元。

So on Page 6, our balance sheet highlights. Cash remained around TWD 94 billion, and total equity has increased to TWD 235 billion. For Q4 of 2020, on Page 7, our blended ASP increased a little bit less than 2% in the fourth quarter of last year.

所以在第 6 頁，我們的資產負債表突出顯示。現金保持在940億新台幣左右，總股本增至2350億新台幣。對於 2020 年第四季度，在第 7 頁上，我們的混合平均售價在去年第四季度略低於 2%。

And for revenue breakdown on Page 8, Asia continued to climb to 61%. And the other region doesn't really change much. For the full year, it's almost identical on a year-over-year comparison in terms of geographic breakdown on Page 9.

對於第 8 頁的收入細分，亞洲繼續攀升至 61%。而其他地區並沒有太大變化。就全年而言，就第 9 頁的地理細分而言，與去年同期相比幾乎相同。

So Page 10 and also Page 11 is the revenue breakdown by customer type, and IDM continued to be around 12% to 13% for both Q4 and the full year of 2020.

因此，第 10 頁和第 11 頁是按客戶類型劃分的收入細分，IDM 在第四季度和 2020 年全年繼續保持在 12% 至 13% 左右。

On Page 12, our revenue breakdown by segment. Communication declined a little bit to 49% in the fourth quarter. And computer is the highest growth segment in the Q4 of 2020. Again, for the full year segment breakdown on Page 13, that ratio didn't really change much on a year-over-year comparison.

在第 12 頁，我們按部門細分的收入。通信在第四季度略有下降至 49%。計算機是 2020 年第四季度增長最快的部分。同樣，對於第 13 頁的全年細分市場，該比率與去年同期相比並沒有太大變化。

On Page 14, our 28-nanometer percentage of revenue continued to increase. In Q4, now it's around 18% of our total revenue. For the previous quarter, 28-nanometer revenue was 14%. And for the full year, 28-nanometer net revenue grew from 11% in 2019 to 14% in year 2020.

在第 14 頁，我們的 28 納米收入百分比繼續增加。在第四季度，現在它約占我們總收入的 18%。上一季度，28 納米收入為 14%。全年來看，28 納米淨收入從 2019 年的 11% 增長到 2020 年的 14%。

Page 15 is our capacity breakdown table effect. And because of the shorter working days, and also Chinese New Year holidays in Q1 2021, our available capacity is a little bit less than that of Q4 2020. However, we continue to expand our capacity mainly in our 12A, 12X, as well as a -- and also 12M. So for the full year capacity, we continue to see quarterly growth starting from Q2 of 2021. For our annual CapEx budget, current forecast is around USD 1.5 billion for 2021 and the breakdown is about 85% 12-inch related and also mainly focused on 28-nanometers.

第 15 頁是我們的容量細分錶效果。由於工作日較短，加上 2021 年第一季度中國春節假期，我們的可用產能比 2020 年第四季度略少。但是，我們繼續擴大我們的產能，主要是在我們的 12A、12X 以及a——還有 12M。因此，對於全年產能，我們將繼續看到從 2021 年第二季度開始的季度增長。對於我們的年度資本支出預算，目前預測 2021 年約為 15 億美元，其中約 85% 與 12 英寸相關，並且主要集中在28納米。

So the above is a summary of UMC's results for Q4 2020. More details are available in the report which has been posted on our website. I will now turn the call over to President of UMC, Mr. Jason Wang.

以上是聯華電子 2020 年第 4 季度業績的摘要。更多詳情請參閱已發佈在我們網站上的報告。我現在將把電話轉給聯華電子總裁 Jason Wang 先生。

Thank you, Qi Dong. Good evening, everyone. Here, I would like to update the fourth quarter operating result of UMC. Our business traction in Q3 carried us over into Q4, lifting utilization rate to 99% and rising wafer shipment to 2.3 million 8-inch equivalents. The stable capacity utilization was driven by robust end market demand on consumer and computing-related applications such as WiFi, digital TV, microcontroller and power management IC.

謝謝你，啟東。各位晚上好。在這裡，我想更新聯電第四季度的經營業績。我們在第三季度的業務發展帶動了我們進入第四季度，將利用率提高到 99%，晶圓出貨量增加到 230 萬片 8 英寸當量。穩定的產能利用率是由終端市場對消費和計算相關應用（如 WiFi、數字電視、微控制器和電源管理 IC）的強勁需求推動的。

For full year 2020, UMC's revenue grew 26% in U.S. dollars while operating income surged to TWD 22.01 billion, reflecting solid utilization rates across both 8-inch and 12-inch facilities, and optimization of our blended product mix, in particular, our enhanced 12-inch product mix primarily resulted from the substantial pickup in 28-nanometer wafer business as well as our successful integration of USJC 12-inch operations.

2020 年全年，聯華電子的收入以美元計算增長 26%，而營業收入飆升至新台幣 220.1 億元，反映了 8 英寸和 12 英寸設施的穩定利用率，以及我們混合產品組合的優化，特別是我們的增強型12 英寸產品組合主要得益於 28 納米晶圓業務的大幅回升以及我們成功整合 USJC 12 英寸業務。

Looking into the first quarter, stable demand outlook will lead to an incremental increase in wafer shipment and blended ASP in U.S. dollars. However, due to the continuing unfavorable foreign exchange rate, we anticipate the appreciation of the NT dollar will offset more than half of the implied growth project for Q1. For full year 2021, UMC continues to share the foundry industry's positive view in wafer demand. Hence, we will continue with the company's disciplined and measured CapEx strategy by allocating a budget of USD 1.5 billion, to accommodate the strong demand outlook in advanced technologies.

展望第一季度，穩定的需求前景將導致以美元計算的晶圓出貨量和混合平均售價的增量增長。但是，由於匯率持續不利，我們預計新台幣升值將抵消第一季度隱含增長計劃的一半以上。對於 2021 年全年，聯電繼續分享晶圓代工行業對晶圓需求的積極看法。因此，我們將通過分配 15 億美元的預算來繼續執行公司嚴格且經過衡量的資本支出戰略，以適應先進技術的強勁需求前景。

Let's move on to the first quarter 2021 guidance. Our wafer shipments will increase by approximately 2%. ASP in U.S. dollar will increase by 2% to 3%. However, the surging NT dollar will wipe out more than half of the implied revenue growth as reported earlier.

讓我們繼續討論 2021 年第一季度的指南。我們的晶圓出貨量將增加約 2%。以美元計算的平均售價將增加 2% 至 3%。然而，飆升的新台幣將抹去早先報導的隱含收入增長的一半以上。

Now, allow me to explain in Chinese as well. (foreign language) Gross profit margin will be in the mid-20% range. Capacity utilization rate will be at 100%. Our 2021 cash-based CapEx will be budgeted at USD 1.5 billion.

現在，請允許我也用中文解釋一下。 （外文）毛利率將在20%左右。產能利用率將達到100%。我們 2021 年基於現金的資本支出預算為 15 億美元。

That concludes my comments. Thank you all for your attention. Now we are ready for questions.

我的評論到此結束。謝謝大家的關注。現在我們準備好提問了。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question is coming from Randy Abrams, Crédit Suisse.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自瑞士信貸銀行的 Randy Abrams。

A good result. I want to test the first question on the shipment and ASP outlook. First on shipments, with utilization now at 99%, can you discuss how much growth -- additional shipment growth you can squeeze out this year from your capacity? So if you could give a sense on how much capacity additions through the year you'll have on 12-inch and 8-inch.

一個好的結果。我想測試關於出貨量和 ASP 前景的第一個問題。首先是出貨量，目前利用率為 99%，您能否討論一下今年您可以從產能中擠出多少增長——額外的出貨量增長？因此，如果您能了解一年中 12 英寸和 8 英寸的容量增加了多少。

All right. So first, thank you. And for the guidance of Q1, we project the wafer shipment will increase slightly and primarily due to higher utilization rates, driven by the strong demand, as we reported earlier. We're already at 99%, but we project Q1 will be 100%. So the other -- the ASP (multiple speakers)

好的。首先，謝謝。對於第一季度的指導，我們預計晶圓出貨量將略有增加，這主要是由於在強勁需求的推動下更高的利用率，正如我們之前報導的那樣。我們已經達到 99%，但我們預計第一季度將達到 100%。那麼另一個——ASP（多個揚聲器）

Okay. And maybe just a follow-up first on that. I guess the follow-up through the year since you'll be at 100%, could you discuss capacity additions? Like -- because I know you had Xiamen coming on. So when the additional capacity will be available, if you could discuss on 12-inch. And then debottlenecking mature nodes, how some of these fabs may ramp to add capacity through the year?

好的。也許只是先跟進一下。我猜想今年的後續行動，因為你將達到 100%，你能討論增加容量嗎？就像——因為我知道你有廈門來了。所以當額外的容量可用時，你是否可以討論 12 英寸。然後消除成熟節點的瓶頸，這些晶圓廠中的一些如何在全年增加產能？

Well, from a year-over-year standpoint, the 2021 capacity will grow about 3% in 2021. And that will split between the 8- and 12-inch. The 8-inch due to the limited clean room space. And we're only doing the -- some of optimization and productivity improvement, so that will probably be about 1% increase on 8-inch and the 12% -- about 5% from 12-inch.

那麼，從同比的角度來看，2021 年的產能將在 2021 年增長約 3%。這將分為 8 英寸和 12 英寸。 8英寸由於無塵室空間有限。我們只是在做 - 一些優化和生產力改進，所以這可能會在 8 英寸和 12% 上增加約 1% - 從 12 英寸增加約 5%。

Okay. Actually, a follow-up and then I'll get to ASP. On the 8-inch, where there's very limited space, there was discussion a few months ago about purchasing 8-inch capacity from Japan. Could you discuss, I guess, opportunity to acquire capacity or otherwise your view to grow the customer base on 8-inch? Is your plan to eventually find a way to add capacity? Or is it to transition customers into 12-inch?

好的。實際上，進行後續跟進，然後我將介紹 ASP。 8英寸，空間非常有限，幾個月前就有討論要從日本採購8英寸容量。我想，您能否討論一下獲得容量的機會，或者您對擴大 8 英寸客戶群的看法？您是否計劃最終找到增加容量的方法？還是為了讓客戶過渡到12寸？

Well, I mean, that's -- well, first of all, from the 8-inch greenfield from our existing premium space, there is a limitation there, okay? And as far as the -- inorganically, we are unable to comment on any guess or speculation, but we are always open to exploring new opportunities as long as they can enhance our shareholders' benefit. So we are open to the inorganic approach.

好吧，我的意思是，那是——好吧，首先，從我們現有的高級空間的 8 英寸綠地來看，那裡有一個限制，好嗎？至於 - 無機地，我們無法對任何猜測或猜測發表評論，但我們總是樂於探索新的機會，只要它們能夠提高我們股東的利益。所以我們對無機方法持開放態度。

The comment -- your question about if we can migrating the 8-inch into 12-inch, that is ongoing efforts. It's subject to different applications and the customers' alignment, and that will be an ongoing effort for us.

評論——你關於我們是否可以將 8 英寸遷移到 12 英寸的問題，這是持續的努力。它取決於不同的應用程序和客戶的一致性，這將是我們不斷努力的結果。

Okay. Great. And then, I guess, now for the question on pricing. Could you discuss for blended ASP, you'll have 2 moves, like 28-nanometer ramping, but also, I'm curious for additional pricing action, how you expect over the next few quarters ongoing ASP trend, if you could discuss that?

好的。偉大的。然後，我想，現在是關於定價的問題。您能否討論混合 ASP，您將有 2 個動作，例如 28 納米的斜坡，而且，我對額外的定價行動很好奇，如果您可以討論一下，您對未來幾個季度持續的 ASP 趨勢有何期望？

Well, the Q1 -- first of all, the Q1 ASP guidance was a result of increase due to higher 28-nanometer wafer shipments. And some of the pricing enhancement in the 8-inch as well. The technology migration in the 12-inch business, we're migrating some of the product into different -- the next node. The overall blended ASP will increase about 2% to 3% quarter-over-quarter in Q1 in our guidance.

那麼，第一季度 - 首先，第一季度 ASP 指導是由於 28 納米晶圓出貨量增加而增加的結果。 8 英寸的價格也有所提高。 12 英寸業務的技術遷移，我們正在將一些產品遷移到不同的——下一個節點。根據我們的指引，第一季度整體混合平均售價將環比增長約 2% 至 3%。

For the ASP, we always keep commitment to our long term customer. So however, we do believe the ASP should reflect our market value based on the technologies' competitiveness as well as our manufacturing excellence along with our commitment to our customers. So therefore, the ASP is more of a result of many different factors. If the question is about 2021, based on all those factors will lead us to set a mid-single-digit percentage year-over-year in ASP increase as our goal in 2021 at this point.

對於 ASP，我們始終信守對長期客戶的承諾。因此，我們確實相信 ASP 應該反映我們基於技術競爭力的市場價值以及我們卓越的製造能力以及我們對客戶的承諾。因此，ASP 更多是許多不同因素的結果。如果問題是關於 2021 年，基於所有這些因素，我們將 ASP 的同比增長率設定為中等個位數百分比作為我們 2021 年的目標。

Okay. Great. That's helpful. And just one final question. The earnings with some of the nonoperating income at [242], how would that translate? Because your payout has always been a target to be a high percent, but the earnings grew quite a bit. So if there's a framework to think about payout off the higher earnings you generated?

好的。偉大的。這很有幫助。最後一個問題。一些非營業收入的收益為 [242]，這將如何轉化？因為你的支出一直是一個高百分比的目標，但收入增長了很多。那麼，是否有一個框架來考慮支付您產生的更高收入？

We, of course, will continue a high payout dividend policy. And I think for the cash dividend, we do see the potential for the 2021 payout to be likely double from last year. But this is also subject to the Board approval.

當然，我們將繼續實施高派息股息政策。而且我認為對於現金股息，我們確實看到 2021 年的支出可能比去年翻一番。但這也需要得到董事會的批准。

And the next question is coming from Sunny Lin, UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀集團的 Sunny Lin。

Congrats on the very good results. Number one, for your CapEx, it's quite a bit above the level in the last few years. So I wonder, under the 5% expansion for your 12-inch, what specifically 28 is going to expand for this year?

祝賀你取得了很好的成績。第一，對於您的資本支出，它比過去幾年的水平高出很多。所以我想知道，在你們12寸5%的擴容下，今年28寸具體擴容到什麼程度？

In 2021, 28-nanometer capacity will increase by 20% year-over-year.

2021年28納米產能同比增長20%。

Got it. So that's a bit above what you guided before. I think previously, you were guiding for -- from 40,000 wafer per month to about, I think, 52,000 wafer per month by mid of this year?

知道了。所以這比你之前指導的要高一點。我想以前，你的指導是 - 從每月 40,000 片晶圓到今年年中每月大約 52,000 片晶圓？

The 28-nanometers total capacity -- combining the high-K and poly-SiON, we have about 45,600 per month at the end of Q4 in 2020, and we are projecting by end of '21, Q4 '21, will be 59,300 per month.

28 納米總產能——結合高 K 和多晶矽，到 2020 年第四季度末我們每月大約有 45,600 個，我們預計到 21 年第四季度末，每個月將達到 59,300 個月。

Yes. Some of the new 28-nanometer capacity also comes from the transition of 14-nanometer capacity. So may not be all greenfield.

是的。部分新的28納米產能也來自於14納米產能的過渡。所以可能不全是綠地。

Got it. So a very quick follow-up. How does this change your expectation on depreciation for this year and next year?

知道了。所以一個非常快速的跟進。這將如何改變您對今年和明年的貶值預期？

The depreciation curve still will be trending down, as we mentioned before. Of course, the slightly higher CapEx in 2021, will, of course, alter the depreciation curve for the next few years, but not that much. So we still expect to see about 5% decline year-over-year in depreciation for 2021. And the decline rate should be more in 2022, followed by an even more significant decline in 2023, but let's focus on '21 and '22 first.

正如我們之前提到的，折舊曲線仍將呈下降趨勢。當然，2021 年略高的資本支出當然會改變未來幾年的折舊曲線，但幅度不會太大。因此，我們仍然預計 2021 年的折舊率將同比下降約 5%。2022 年下降幅度應該更大，2023 年下降幅度更大，但讓我們先關注 21 和 22 年.

Got it. And my second question is on mature 12-inch. So it looks like mature 12-inch foundries are also seeing pretty strong supply-demand from late last year. So following our -- some of the price negotiation on 8-inch, should we also expect some price hike for 12-inch in following few quarters?

知道了。我的第二個問題是關於成熟的 12 英寸。因此，看起來成熟的 12 英寸晶圓代工廠也從去年年底開始出現相當強勁的供需。因此，在我們對 8 英寸進行了一些價格談判之後，我們是否也應該預期在接下來的幾個季度中 12 英寸的價格會上漲？

Well, the earlier quarter ASP projection for the year, is a blended ASP reflects the combination of 8-inch and 12-inch price in a 8-inch equivalent. So that will be a good reference for you to use.

那麼，今年早些時候的季度 ASP 預測是一個混合的 ASP，反映了 8 英寸和 12 英寸價格的組合，相當於 8 英寸。所以這將是一個很好的參考供您使用。

And next we'll have Roland Shu of Citigroup for questions.

接下來我們將請花旗集團的 Roland Shu 提問。

And congrats for the good result. First question, you said your first quarter capacity is loaded under 100% utilization. So is this 100% across the board for all (inaudible) margin, not all. I think that my question specifically is about 28- and 40-nanometer. So compared to your average 100% utilization, how about the capacity on 28- and 40-nanometer doing in first quarter?

並祝賀你取得了好成績。第一個問題，你說你第一季度的產能利用率低於 100%。對於所有（聽不清）利潤率，這也是 100%，而不是全部。我認為我的問題具體是關於 28 納米和 40 納米的。那麼，與平均 100% 的利用率相比，第一季度 28 和 40 納米的產能如何？

Well, the overall is 100%. And both the 8-inch and 12-inch are full at 100%. So the most of nodes are full.

嗯，總體是100%。而且8寸和12寸都是100%滿電。所以大多數節點都是滿的。

Yes. Most nodes are full, how about the 28 and the 40?

是的。大多數節點已滿，28 和 40 怎麼樣？

They both are full.

他們都吃飽了。

Okay. Both are full. Okay. And second question is for your gross margin. So your revenue last year already achieved a record high. Are there still room for gross margin to reach our last peak label, around 30% in 2010? So how do we expect your margins in the -- maybe next 1 to 2 years, how soon will the gross margin go back to 30%?

好的。兩者都滿了。好的。第二個問題是關於你的毛利率。所以你們去年的收入已經創下了歷史新高。毛利率是否還有空間達到我們上次標示的峰值，2010 年 30% 左右？那麼我們如何預期您的利潤率——也許在接下來的 1 到 2 年內，毛利率多久會回到 30%？

Yes. We kind of -- maybe I can answer first. Basically, every 1% increase in ASP will contribute more than 0.5% gross margin. So it really depends on how much ASP increase. Also, NT dollar appreciation also has some negative impact on our gross margin. So every 1% of NT dollar appreciation will eat about 0.4% of our gross margins. We also ensure the benefit of economic scale and also better product mix and cost reduction.

是的。我們有點——也許我可以先回答。基本上平均售價每上升1%，便可貢獻超過0.5%的毛利率。所以這真的取決於 ASP 增加了多少。此外，新台幣升值也對我們的毛利率產生了一些負面影響。所以新台幣每升值1%，就會吃掉我們毛利率的0.4%左右。我們還確保經濟規模效益以及更好的產品組合和成本降低。

More importantly, it will be our performance for both our 12-inch Japanese subsidiary as well as our Xiamen subsidiaries. Currently, our Xiamen subsidiary still post a operating loss, given the early stage heavy depreciations. And -- but their performance has been continuing to improve because of the higher loading and also higher 28-nanometer production. So that will contribute a certain percentage of gross margin increase.

更重要的是我們12寸日本子公司和廈門子公司的表現。目前，我們的廈門子公司仍出現經營虧損，原因是早期折舊嚴重。而且 - 但由於更高的負載和更高的 28 納米產量，它們的性能一直在不斷提高。因此，這將貢獻一定比例的毛利率增長。

Understood. Yes. So how do you see the ASP increase? Are we able to have this 10% ASP increase in the near future?

明白了。是的。那麼您如何看待 ASP 的增長？我們能否在不久的將來實現 10% 的 ASP 增長？

Well, I commented earlier, the ASP has manufactured, they have to be considered. So along with all those considerations, and we're expecting our ASP will reflect our market value based on our current market position. And that's what we continue striving for. Just like Qi Dong mentioned earlier, the -- continuing to improve our corporate earnings is our principle. So as we continue improving productivity, driving costs down, enhancing product mix, as well as moving the ASP to a reasonable market, reflecting our market value. And at the same time, we are managing our depreciation curve. That means the UMC will act on to our plan to improve our overall corporate earnings.

好吧，我之前評論過，ASP已經製造出來了，他們不得不考慮。因此，除了所有這些考慮因素，我們預計我們的 ASP 將根據我們當前的市場地位反映我們的市場價值。這就是我們繼續努力的目標。就像齊東剛才提到的，持續提高企業盈利是我們的原則。因此，隨著我們繼續提高生產力，降低成本，加強產品組合，以及將 ASP 推向合理的市場，反映我們的市場價值。同時，我們正在管理我們的折舊曲線。這意味著 UMC 將按照我們的計劃採取行動，以提高我們的整體企業收益。

And the next question is coming from Bruce of Goldman Sachs.

下一個問題來自高盛的布魯斯。

A great result. I want to ask about the profitability for the 8-inch and 12-inch -- especially legacy 12-inch, okay. Let's remove 28-nanometers out of the equation because the depreciation is still on the way. So what is the price gap between the industry leader for 8-inch and legacy 12-inch for UMC? I mean do we see the reasonable cost gap between you and the industry leader? So what is the optimal profitability for the 8-inch and the legacy 12-inch?

一個很好的結果。我想問一下 8 英寸和 12 英寸的盈利能力——尤其是傳統的 12 英寸，好的。讓我們從等式中刪除 28 納米，因為折舊仍在進行中。那麼業界領先的 8 英寸和傳統 12 英寸聯華電子的價格差距是多少？我的意思是我們是否看到您與行業領導者之間的合理成本差距？那麼 8 英寸和傳統 12 英寸的最佳盈利能力是多少？

Well, I mean, that's an interesting question. The -- in general, we do believe there is a potential in terms of our market price, okay? Again, the ASP result of many different factors I mentioned earlier. So we have to actually -- first, executing our technology manufacturing and while maintaining our commitment with our customer. So -- and eventually, we can try to win-win results for both our customers and UMC. So the bottom line is we need to be a trustworthy partner for our customers while we're managing our ASP to a reasonable level. I can't really quote you a percentage specifically, but I do believe there is a potential to get to that.

嗯，我的意思是，這是一個有趣的問題。 - 總的來說，我們確實相信我們的市場價格有潛力，好嗎？同樣，我之前提到的許多不同因素的 ASP 結果。所以我們實際上必須——首先，執行我們的技術製造，同時保持我們對客戶的承諾。所以 - 最終，我們可以嘗試為我們的客戶和 UMC 帶來雙贏的結果。因此，底線是我們需要成為客戶值得信賴的合作夥伴，同時我們將 ASP 管理到合理的水平。我真的不能具體地給你一個百分比，但我相信有可能達到這個目標。

Let me ask a question in a different way. I mean when the company tried to do that -- list IPO in China, you did provide your urgent profitability, which is for like mid-30s percentage in terms of the gross margin. So comparing to TSMC for the 8-inch, which is around 50%, so the profitability gap is about 15%. Which may mean by -- reasonably assume that the price gap or some kind of cost gap, right? I mean given the current situation or given your execution has been improved, the cost structure hasn't improved. So what is the reason? Can we assume that you can achieve 50% sometime in 2, 3 years? Or that is a way too high bar to achieve?

讓我換一種方式問一個問題。我的意思是，當公司試圖這樣做時——在中國上市 IPO，你確實提供了你的緊急盈利能力，就毛利率而言，這是大約 30 多歲的百分比。因此，與 8 英寸的台積電相比，後者約為 50%，因此盈利差距約為 15%。這可能意味著 - 合理地假設價格差距或某種成本差距，對嗎？我的意思是考慮到目前的情況或者你的執行力得到了改善，成本結構並沒有得到改善。那麼是什麼原因呢？我們可以假設您可以在 2、3 年的某個時候達到 50% 嗎？或者這是一個太高的門檻無法實現？

Well, I can tell you this, on the 8-inch operation, we are very close to where our market value is. Okay. And -- but again, the blended ASP, including a product mix as well. So the -- some of the product migration will have to take effect to reflect the gap. And from those applications we may already have is in commitment, so that will take some time to manage that migration. So -- but if you're talking about from apple-to-apples standpoint, the -- our 8-inch ASP is very close to what the market value is.

好吧，我可以告訴你，在 8 英寸的操作上，我們非常接近我們的市場價值。好的。而且 - 但同樣，混合的 ASP，也包括產品組合。所以 - 一些產品遷移將不得不生效以反映差距。從我們可能已經擁有的那些應用程序中，我們需要一些時間來管理遷移。所以 - 但如果你從蘋果對蘋果的角度來談論 - 我們的 8 英寸 ASP 非常接近市場價值。

Wow, so how about legacy 12-inch?

哇，傳統 12 英寸怎麼樣？

The legacy 12-inch also, again, is resolving on current product mix. So one of the product mix improvement is included, it's an important area for us to continue to enhance. So if we do the apple-to-apple comparison, I do think the -- from the 12-inch potential there is -- on the 12-inch mature, there's still some potential there.

傳統的 12 英寸也再次解決了當前的產品組合。因此，其中一項產品組合改進包括在內，這是我們繼續加強的一個重要領域。因此，如果我們進行蘋果對蘋果的比較，我確實認為——從 12 英寸的潛力來看——在 12 英寸的成熟市場上，仍然有一些潛力。

I see. So for investors' perspective, we can reasonably assume that the profitability for 8-inch will remain at high level, but we can expect some positive improvement from the legacy 12-inch?

我懂了。因此，從投資者的角度來看，我們可以合理地假設 8 英寸的盈利能力將保持在較高水平，但我們可以期待傳統 12 英寸的一些積極改善嗎？

That will be our goal, yes.

這將是我們的目標，是的。

The next question is regarding your CapEx. I mean in addition to the 28-nanometer capacity expansion that you guided, do you have any plan to expand like legacy 12-inch? I mean, based on the current wafer pricing, is it profitable or margin acquisitive to increase the capacity for the legacy 12-inch?

下一個問題是關於您的資本支出。我的意思是除了你指導的28納米擴容之外，你有沒有像傳統12英寸那樣擴容的計劃？我的意思是，根據目前的晶圓定價，增加傳統 12 英寸的容量是否有利可圖或利潤獲取？

The economics on the legacy 12-inch at this point, is -- remain very challenging, okay? So the -- part of our 2021 CapEx that we invest we including for some of the specialty capability -- capacity capability within the legacy side. I think those has a justifiable economics. But if you're talking about a greenfield logic capacity for the mature 12-inch, I think the bar is very high. It remains very challenging to make economic sense there.

目前，傳統 12 英寸的經濟效益仍然非常具有挑戰性，好嗎？因此，我們投資的 2021 年資本支出的一部分包括一些專業能力——遺留方面的能力。我認為這些具有合理的經濟學意義。但如果你談論的是成熟的 12 英寸的全新邏輯容量，我認為門檻非常高。在那裡實現經濟意義仍然非常具有挑戰性。

I think I want to squeeze one last question, which is R&D expenses, okay? For 2020, the R&D expense is still like 7.5%. So what is the target for 2021 and maybe 2022? And absolute R&D expenses actually went up in 2020 versus 2019. I mean after like giving -- after stopping the best R&D for the best node. So can you provide me more color about these R&D expenses increase other than the higher employee bonus?

我想我想擠最後一個問題，就是研發費用，好嗎？ 2020年，研發費用仍然是7.5%左右。那麼 2021 年甚至 2022 年的目標是什麼？與 2019 年相比，2020 年的絕對研發費用實際上有所上升。我的意思是在付出之後——在停止對最佳節點的最佳研發之後。那麼除了更高的員工獎金之外，你能給我更多關於這些研發費用增加的顏色嗎？

That's a very good question. I mean, let me see if I can answer it this way. It's our belief and our goal, we won't strive to become a leading pure play foundry in some particular application with one comprehensive process solution, okay, and manufacturing excellence. And sizable capacity offering in both 12-inch and 8-inch fabs and along with our strong client portfolio. We think with that, we can actually help UMC to become an important player in this industry.

這是一個很好的問題。我的意思是，讓我看看我是否可以這樣回答。這是我們的信念和目標，我們不會通過一個全面的工藝解決方案、好的和卓越的製造來努力成為某些特定應用中領先的純鑄造廠。在 12 英寸和 8 英寸晶圓廠以及我們強大的客戶組合中提供可觀的產能。我們認為，我們實際上可以幫助聯電成為這個行業的重要參與者。

The foundry capacity has been tight for some time, as we all know. The tightness in capacity availability is more pronounced in 8-inch advanced and the 12-inch mature. And demand from those nodes have significantly outpaced the growth in capacity, okay? And we believe the supply and demand imbalance could likely lead to a structural shift in semi market dynamics. So for UMC, this our technology know that we need to continue to focus. And therefore, UMC has become more relevant to the market and trustworthy to our customers, as I said.

眾所周知，代工產能吃緊已經有一段時間了。 8寸進階和12寸成熟期產能供應緊張更為明顯。這些節點的需求已經大大超過了容量的增長，好嗎？我們認為供需失衡可能會導致半導體市場動態發生結構性轉變。所以對於聯電來說，我們的技術知道我們需要繼續關注。因此，正如我所說，聯電變得更加貼近市場，更值得我們的客戶信賴。

In addition, we need to commit, and we are committed to strategically allocate meaningful among of R&D into the R&D investment to sustain the technology leadership in our focused in particular applications. Areas such like high voltage; those are new. RF SOI, PMIC, ultra-low power, embedded on flash memories, those are all important and that require us to remain committed in R&D development. So that will give you some idea why we're looking at that as a continuous effort.

此外，我們需要做出承諾，並且我們致力於將有意義的研發戰略性地分配到研發投資中，以維持我們在特定應用領域的技術領先地位。高壓等區域；那些是新的。 RF SOI、PMIC、超低功耗、嵌入閃存，這些都很重要，需要我們繼續致力於研發。因此，這會讓您了解為什麼我們將其視為一項持續的努力。

So can I say that those investment will be the key for you to improve your legacy 12-inch profitability?

那麼我可以說這些投資將是您提高傳統 12 英寸盈利能力的關鍵嗎？

Yes, you can say that. Not only the probability, also the continued stable high utilization rate.

是的，你可以這麼說。不僅是概率，還有持續穩定的高利用率。

Understood. So what is the -- for the modeling purpose, can you provide some target as for R&D expenses as a percentage of revenue in 2021?

明白了。那麼，出於建模目的，您能否提供一些關於 2021 年研發費用佔收入百分比的目標？

Yes. I think for 2021, even beyond, our goal is really to keep the OpEx at a similar percentage as the last few years and same for R&D. Hopefully, our revenue growth will provide more resources to all the related operating expenses items.

是的。我認為到 2021 年，甚至更遠，我們的目標實際上是將 OpEx 保持在與過去幾年相似的百分比，並與研發保持相同的百分比。希望我們的收入增長將為所有相關的運營費用項目提供更多資源。

The next question is coming from [Stephen Chen, Asia Capital].

下一個問題來自 [Stephen Chen, Asia Capital]。

A couple of questions here. And the first one is actually still on 200-millimeter. I think one of the other foundry supplier mentioned about to acquire or to build a 200-millimeter capacity from greenfield. Actually, the cost increased by probably another 50% in the past 2 to 3 years. So I'm just wondering, in your thoughts, what kind of 8-inch or 200-millimeter ASP will be just -- can justify if you are going to acquire a new fab or to start from the greenfield?

這裡有幾個問題。而第一個實際上仍在 200 毫米上。我認為另一家代工供應商提到要從綠地收購或建設 200 毫米產能。實際上，在過去的 2 到 3 年裡，成本可能又增加了 50%。所以我只是想知道，在你的想法中，什麼樣的 8 英寸或 200 毫米 ASP 將是——可以證明你是要收購一個新的晶圓廠還是從綠地開始？

This is really hypothetical, so it's difficult for us to answer the hypothetical questions. So let me answer you in a different way. We see potential to bring value to our current customers as well as our shareholders, if we acquire a similar fab like we did for USJC. So that has been bringing value to our customers as well as to our shareholders. So that has been our benchmark. For the future acquisition, if there's any, we will pretty much follow a similar guidance. So the question you raised is really too many factors. For us, I think the ultimate baseline is to see if they can bring value to our shareholders and customers.

這真的是假設性的，所以我們很難回答假設性的問題。所以讓我換一種方式回答你。如果我們像收購 USJC 那樣收購一家類似的晶圓廠，我們認為有可能為我們現有的客戶和股東帶來價值。因此，這一直為我們的客戶和股東帶來價值。所以這一直是我們的基準。對於未來的收購，如果有的話，我們幾乎會遵循類似的指導。所以你提的問題真的是因素太多了。對我們來說，我認為最終的底線是看他們是否能為我們的股東和客戶帶來價值。

Okay. Fair enough. Another question is so in Q4, your 28-nanometer revenue was already 18%. So do you have any goal or if there's any like ballpark number in this year that you think we can -- can provide us as a reference?

好的。很公平。另一個問題是，在第四季度，你們的 28 納米收入已經達到 18%。那麼，您是否有任何目標，或者您認為我們可以在今年有任何類似的大概數字 - 可以提供給我們作為參考嗎？

Well, the -- in Q1, we foresee the 28-nanometer contribution will continue to grow. And the -- well, if you're talking about the target, our goal is -- we believe the 25% contribution is achievable after our new 28-nanometer capacity come online. So we still align that as our current objective.

那麼，在第一季度，我們預計 28 納米的貢獻將繼續增長。而且 - 好吧，如果你在談論目標，我們的目標是 - 我們相信在我們新的 28 納米產能上線後可以實現 25% 的貢獻。所以我們仍然將其作為我們當前的目標。

Yes. That's very helpful. The last question from me is back to 200-millimeter. So we know it is a very busy capacity right now. So I'm just wondering, as of this moment, do you still have the luxury or do you still leverage the chance to continue to optimize your product portfolio within 200-millimeter? And if we look at it on a structural basis, let's say in the next 1, 2 years, how do you think this will alter your 200-millimeter ASP as well as the profitability?

是的。這很有幫助。我的最後一個問題又回到了 200 毫米。所以我們知道現在這是一個非常繁忙的容量。所以我只是想知道，截至目前，您是否還有機會繼續優化 200 毫米以內的產品組合？如果我們從結構的角度來看，假設在未來 1、2 年內，您認為這將如何改變您的 200 毫米 ASP 以及盈利能力？

Well, again, that's the ongoing efforts and the -- along with the productivity improvement and the product mix enhancement. I think that that will be the continuing effort for us to improve our 8-inch results and performance. The current 8-inch capacity within UMC is mainly due to the limited clean room availability. So that's why we focus on productivity improvement and some of the debottlenecking efforts. And we also talked about earlier that we are always open to explore viable option in the 8-inch space as well. So those -- we'll continue seeking those opportunities. Given the current market, strong market demand, I think the inorganic approach is less possible. So we have to concentrate and draw our attention to our internal effort first.

好吧，這又是持續的努力，以及 - 隨著生產力的提高和產品組合的增強。我認為這將是我們改進 8 英寸結果和性能的持續努力。 UMC 目前的 8 英寸產能主要是由於潔淨室的可用性有限。所以這就是為什麼我們專注於提高生產力和一些消除瓶頸的努力。我們之前也談到過，我們也始終願意探索 8 英寸空間中的可行選項。所以那些 - 我們將繼續尋找這些機會。鑑於目前的市場，強勁的市場需求，我認為無機方法不太可能。因此，我們必須首先集中註意力並將注意力集中在我們的內部努力上。

And the next one is from Szeho Ng of China Renaissance.

下一位來自華興資本的 Szeho Ng。

Congratulations. My first question regarding on digitization. Now if the company are running at 100% utilization, I just wonder how much we can overdrive our capacity? So what is the theoretical peak utilization we can achieve?

恭喜。我關於數字化的第一個問題。現在，如果公司以 100% 的利用率運行，我只是想知道我們可以超載多少產能？那麼我們可以達到的理論峰值利用率是多少？

Well, we -- for the 2021, we see a very robust demand outlook in 2021, driven by multiple factors. In the smartphone-related demand, the continued momentum, the work-from-home trends. And in addition, a very hot topic recently, there is a strong pickup in automotive segment too, right? So we believe the demand remain very strong. The strong demand on those applications, obviously, will lead to higher utilization rates. And so I think we have a pretty good confidence that we will maintaining the high-loading situation.

好吧，對於 2021 年，我們認為在多種因素的推動下，2021 年的需求前景非常強勁。在與智能手機相關的需求中，持續的勢頭、在家工作的趨勢。此外，最近很熱門的話題，汽車領域也有很強的回暖，對吧？因此，我們認為需求仍然非常強勁。顯然，對這些應用程序的強勁需求將導致更高的利用率。因此，我認為我們對維持高負荷情況很有信心。

But besides demand, we still need to continue to focus on our manufacturing excellence as well as our solutions in order to continue managing the pipeline of both 12-inch and 8-inch, and those will help us for the long-term loading stability. So far, we've been executing according to plan, and we're making good progress. We have delivered in 2020, and we still remain very high confidence in our 2021 loading outlook.

但除了需求之外，我們還需要繼續專注於我們的卓越製造和我們的解決方案，以繼續管理 12 英寸和 8 英寸的管道，這將有助於我們實現長期的裝載穩定性。到目前為止，我們一直在按計劃執行，並且取得了良好的進展。我們已經在 2020 年交付，我們對 2021 年的裝載前景仍然充滿信心。

Yes. Okay, great. And for this year's capacity expansion, can you share with us how fast you will be ramping up the capacity every quarter?

是的。好，太棒了。對於今年的產能擴張，您能否與我們分享您每個季度的產能提升速度？

There will be some increase in the second quarter, and there will be some increase in the fourth quarter. And -- but in general, the overall percentage of target increase is about 5% year-over-year.

二季度會有一些增加，四季度會有一些增加。而且——但總的來說，目標增長的總體百分比約為 5%。

Okay. Great. And last one, I think for Qi Dong. How should we model the tax rate for the company this year? Because last year, the cash rate was actually kind of low so I'm not sure if that's kind of sustainable?

好的。偉大的。最後一個，我想是為了齊東。我們應該如何為公司今年的稅率建模？因為去年，現金利率實際上有點低，所以我不確定這是否可持續？

I think we probably -- it will be safe to model about 10% corporate tax rate for 2021.

我認為我們可能 - 為 2021 年建立大約 10% 的公司稅率模型是安全的。

The next question is coming from Sebastian Hou, CLSA.

下一個問題來自 CLSA 的 Sebastian Hou。

So first question is, I think there's a lot of talks recently about the oval chip shortage, which has affected the global car production, and hence, also media reported many governments have approached Taiwan government and TSMC specifically mentioned for causing such shortage, but we don't see much mention about UMC. But we know that UMC also have some exposure here. So curious about -- if you can elaborate what's the company's exposure to automotive here, particularly for those power management, microcontrol unit chips that are severely in shortage right now. And also whether you are seeing a similar situation i.e. the shortage issues with your major IDM customers here?

所以第一個問題是，我認為最近有很多關於橢圓形芯片短缺的討論，這已經影響了全球汽車生產，因此，媒體報導許多政府已經與台灣政府接觸，特別提到台積電造成這種短缺，但我們沒有看到太多關於UMC的提及。但我們知道，聯電在這方面也有一些曝光。非常好奇——如果你能詳細說明公司在汽車領域的曝光度是多少，特別是那些目前嚴重短缺的電源管理、微控制單元芯片。還有你是否看到類似的情況，即你的主要 IDM 客戶的短缺問題？

Well, I mean, we reported last quarter, we see a recovery of the automotive market space. And so we definitely see the auto recovery from end of last year, and the momentum has continued. However, the overall utilization rate is -- of the fab are very high for the past 3 quarters, 4 quarters already. So despite the fact that UMC's fab has been operating at 100% utilization rate, we are aware of the inquiry from the automotive market and starting from Q4 last year, and we are aware of our position in the auto supply chain as well. And our current plan with that area is we're trying our best effort to help the chip shortage within that supply chain. And we have been doing that, starting from the beginning of this year, yes.

好吧，我的意思是，我們在上個季度報告說，我們看到了汽車市場空間的複蘇。因此，我們肯定會看到去年年底的汽車復甦，而且這種勢頭還在繼續。然而，工廠的整體利用率在過去 3 個季度中非常高，已經有 4 個季度了。因此，儘管聯電的晶圓廠一直以 100% 的利用率運作，但我們知道汽車市場的詢問，從去年第四季度開始，我們也知道我們在汽車供應鏈中的地位。我們目前在該領域的計劃是我們正在盡最大努力幫助解決該供應鏈中的芯片短缺問題。我們一直在這樣做，從今年年初開始，是的。

Okay. So what you said is that you were trying to allocate more capacity or expand capacity to mitigate the shortage impacts for automotive customers specifically?

好的。那麼您所說的是您正在嘗試分配更多產能或擴大產能以減輕對汽車客戶的短缺影響？

Yes, it's hard to increase the capacity. It's more of a reprioritize. So prioritizing the automotive market with a bit of a better priority. So -- and so hopefully, we can relieve some of the pressures.

是的，很難增加容量。這更像是重新確定優先級。因此，優先考慮汽車市場。所以 - 希望我們能夠減輕一些壓力。

Okay. So does that imply that non-auto-related applications and customers, if they have not given you long and big enough forecast for the following quarters, then they are likely to -- their allocation will likely to be get reduced?

好的。那麼，這是否意味著非汽車相關的應用程序和客戶，如果他們沒有為您提供對接下來幾個季度足夠長和足夠大的預測，那麼他們很可能 - 他們的分配可能會減少？

Well, I won't say that because some of the capacity increase is coming out from the productivity improvement. And so for those, the priority will probably be allocating to automotive at the current time. And -- but again, automotive recovery really came late in this whole demand surge. So we -- it's more of an optimization approach now. And hopefully, by giving some of the higher priority support, we can release the market pressure a little bit. As you know, the overall loading situation is severely high. And so we can only do as much as we can at this point.

好吧，我不會這麼說，因為一些產能增加來自生產力的提高。因此，對於那些人來說，目前的優先事項可能會分配給汽車。而且——但再一次，在整個需求激增的過程中，汽車行業的複蘇確實來得晚。所以我們 - 現在更像是一種優化方法。希望通過給予一些更高優先級的支持，我們可以稍微釋放市場壓力。如您所知，整體負載情況非常高。因此，我們目前只能盡力而為。

So our commitment to all the non-auto customer will not change at all.

所以我們對所有非汽車客戶的承諾不會改變。

Okay. Okay. And then given that the company has offered some colors about the 8-inch capacity will increase by 1%, also there is a challenge to increase legacy 12-inch capacity, which I assume that most of the auto chips are using these nodes. It seems like, if you're not cutting or lowering the priority -- cutting or lowering your commitment to the non-auto customers, I just cannot imagine how to mitigate the -- how much more extra capacity we can allocate to the auto guys?

好的。好的。然後鑑於該公司提供了一些關於 8 英寸容量將增加 1% 的顏色，也存在增加傳統 12 英寸容量的挑戰，我認為大多數汽車芯片都在使用這些節點。看起來，如果你不削減或降低優先級 - 削減或降低你對非汽車客戶的承諾，我無法想像如何減輕 - 我們可以為汽車客戶分配多少額外產能？

Just as I just mentioned, we will have our own way to managing the priority while keeping the commitment to other customers. So basically, we are doing our best to mitigate the situation.

正如我剛才提到的，我們將有自己的方式來管理優先級，同時保持對其他客戶的承諾。所以基本上，我們正在盡最大努力緩解這種情況。

Okay. Great. And a follow on that is that given the auto, I think we have already adjust our wafer prices and now closer to the market prices on the 8-inch side. And whether or not this auto chip shortage and auto guys that come later could be an extra catalyst or factor to enable you -- enable the company to raise price or adjust price higher, not just for the auto guys, but to the non-auto guys also?

好的。偉大的。隨之而來的是，考慮到汽車，我認為我們已經調整了晶圓價格，現在更接近 8 英寸端的市場價格。以及這種汽車芯片短缺和後來出現的汽車人是否會成為額外的催化劑或因素，使您能夠 - 使公司能夠提高價格或調整價格，不僅對汽車人，而且對非汽車人伙計們也？

The upside and the incremental support will be limited. And so I will say that it's not going to be any significant uptick on that.

上行和增量支持將是有限的。所以我會說這不會有任何顯著的提升。

Okay. Great. Is there a number -- or is there a number you can give to us or the range of the numbers you can give to us about your automotive revenue exposure as a company in total?

好的。偉大的。有沒有一個數字——或者您可以給我們一個數字，或者您可以給我們的關於您作為一家公司的汽車收入敞口的數字範圍？

No. Right now, we don't guide any automotive contribution in -- the revenue contribution at this time. And we only covered the 3 -- under the 3 Cs.

不，現在，我們不指導任何汽車貢獻——此時的收入貢獻。我們只涵蓋了 3 個——在 3 C 之下。

Okay. Okay. That's fair. The last question for me. I think the -- I think Qi Dong probably explained this in the prepared remarks, but I dialed in later, so I didn't -- so allow me to ask again. So what's driving the nonoperating investment gain for the past quarter?

好的。好的。這還算公平。最後一個問題問我。我認為——我想 Qi Dong 可能在準備好的發言稿中解釋了這一點，但我後來撥了電話，所以我沒有——所以請允許我再問一遍。那麼，是什麼推動了上個季度的非經營性投資收益？

So for Q4, the net investment cap, TWD 5.7 billion, was mainly correlated to the upward momentum in the equity market. So mostly noncash-based mark-to-market valuation gain.

因此，對於第 4 季度，57 億新台幣的淨投資上限主要與股市的上漲勢頭相關。因此，主要是基於非現金的按市值計價的估值收益。

Okay. Of all this equity holding you have?

好的。您擁有所有這些股權嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

The next question is coming from Rick Hsu, Daiwa Securities.

下一個問題來自大和證券的 Rick Hsu。

Congratulations for your strong results. I just got one question for my modeling purpose. How much government subsidies do you expect to receive throughout the whole year? And how much longer would that sustain?

祝賀你取得了優異的成績。我剛收到一個關於建模目的的問題。您預計全年可獲得多少政府補貼？這會持續多久？

It should be similar to that of 2020. And the continued subsidy recognition should continue all the way to maybe 2023.

它應該與 2020 年類似。並且持續的補貼認可應該會一直持續到 2023 年。

And next, we'll have Charlie Chan of Morgan Stanley for questions.

接下來，我們將請摩根士丹利的 Charlie Chan 提問。

So first of all, we have a lot of discussion about the supply debottleneck. You try to reprioritize auto to production. Can you give us a kind of time line of how soon this could be resolved? And I guess is there any way to judge how real is the demand? Because during a shortage, customers tend to double book. So can you give us some insights about these questions?

所以首先，我們有很多關於供應去瓶頸的討論。您嘗試將 auto 的優先級重新設置為生產。你能給我們一個時間表，說明這個問題多久能解決嗎？我想有什麼方法可以判斷需求的真實性嗎？因為在短缺期間，客戶往往會加倍預訂。那麼你能給我們一些關於這些問題的見解嗎？

Are you referring to the automotive market? Or it's just...

你指的是汽車市場嗎？或者只是...

Yes. Just -- we probably won't be able to give you auto segment, but we can give you an overall.

是的。只是 - 我們可能無法為您提供汽車細分市場，但我們可以為您提供整體服務。

(multiple speakers) Yes. So the overall market, the -- at this time, the pace of the demand growth has surpassed the rail capacity increase, as we all know. However, we do look at the -- on the inventory side, we do see a decline in semi inventory in the past 2 quarters. Portray a healthier inventory level as we we think across the supply chain. So the demand continued to be strong in both 8- and 12-inch, and we have confidence in that. And we're constantly checking that at this time. We believe this is some of the changes taking place in the supply and demand dynamics and again, this could lead to a more of a structural shift in the foundry industry. There may be a possibility of that right now. Yes.

（多個揚聲器）是的。所以整個市場，眾所周知，此時需求增長的速度已經超過了鐵路運力的增長。然而，我們確實看到了——在庫存方面，我們確實看到過去兩個季度的半庫存有所下降。正如我們在整個供應鏈中所想的那樣，描繪出更健康的庫存水平。因此，8 英寸和 12 英寸的需求繼續強勁，我們對此充滿信心。我們目前正在不斷檢查。我們認為這是供需動態發生的一些變化，這可能會導致鑄造行業發生更多的結構性轉變。現在可能有這種可能性。是的。

Okay. And maybe some intelligence from supply side, right? I mean, TSMC, the power chip, are they -- can they add additional 20,000 of the 8-inch capacity in their (inaudible) fab, right? So why they can do so and you cannot? And also you have some operation in China, right, the Xiamen fab and the Hejian fab. So how do you see the Chinese peers plan for that supply increase and long-term or is this going to result in oversupply?

好的。也許還有來自供應方的一些情報，對吧？我的意思是，台積電，功率芯片，他們能在他們的（聽不清）工廠中增加 20,000 個 8 英寸產能，對嗎？那麼為什麼他們可以這樣做而你不能呢？你在中國也有一些業務，對，廈門工廠和河間工廠。那麼，您如何看待中國同行的供應增加和長期計劃，或者這是否會導致供應過剩？

Well, first of all, I mean, we are not in a position to comment on our peers. And we can only focus on what we do. For UMC, the -- we have a very limited space, clean room space in the 8-inch area. So what we're doing now is we deploy -- we're taking our CapEx and taking advantage of the available clean room space for our 12A and 12X fab. And -- but those 2 facilities, our objective now is to increase capacity to accommodate a growing 28-nanometer wafer demand. And that's why you heard earlier, we're talking about -- we will focus on 28-nanometer capacity increase in both the -- in 2021. And that's where we're going to be putting our capacity at.

好吧，首先，我的意思是，我們無法對我們的同行發表評論。而我們只能專注於我們所做的事情。對於 UMC，我們的空間非常有限，8 英寸區域的潔淨室空間。所以我們現在正在做的是部署——我們正在利用我們的資本支出並利用我們 12A 和 12X 工廠的可用潔淨室空間。而且——但是這兩個設施，我們現在的目標是增加產能，以滿足不斷增長的 28 納米晶圓需求。這就是為什麼你早些時候聽到，我們正在談論 - 我們將在 2021 年專注於增加 28 納米的產能。這就是我們將把產能放在的地方。

Okay. So these are more like a clean room issue and you want to prioritize 28-nanometer? Is not because you cannot acquire 8-inch equipments?

好的。所以這些更像是潔淨室問題，您想優先考慮 28 納米？還不是因為買不到8寸設備？

Well, first of all, yes, the clean room is limited, right, I mean from a greenfield standpoint. We -- it doesn't make sense for us to acquire tools if we don't have a place to put them. Yes.

好吧，首先，是的，潔淨室是有限的，對，我是說從綠地的角度來看。我們——如果我們沒有地方放置工具，那麼我們獲取工具就沒有意義。是的。

Okay. Yes. And also, you mentioned that you try to convert some 8-inch product to 12-inch, another approach to increase the supply. Can you share with us what kind of the semiconductor products you're going to see a massive migration from 8-inch to 12-inch in the coming 2 years?

好的。是的。而且，您提到您嘗試將一些 8 英寸產品轉換為 12 英寸，這是增加供應的另一種方法。您能否與我們分享您將在未來 2 年看到從 8 英寸到 12 英寸的大規模遷移的什麼樣的半導體產品？

Well, they are different applications spread out in the different segments. So for example, we see the (inaudible) solution, the covering from both the 8-inch and 12-inch, and we see the RF SOI application migrating from the 8-inch to 12-inch. So they are various applications, they continue doing that. But we also see a continued pipeline going into the 8-inch as well. So this is -- we just have to continue managing the pipeline, the product pipeline from both 12- and 8-inch.

好吧，它們是分佈在不同領域的不同應用程序。因此，例如，我們看到（聽不清）解決方案，覆蓋 8 英寸和 12 英寸，我們看到 RF SOI 應用程序從 8 英寸遷移到 12 英寸。所以他們是各種應用程序，他們繼續這樣做。但我們也看到繼續進入 8 英寸的管道。所以這是 - 我們只需要繼續管理管道，即 12 英寸和 8 英寸的產品管道。

Yes. Okay. That's very helpful. And that's the maybe question to Qi Dong. Can you give us kind of full year gross margin guidance? Sorry if I missed it. And also, the lawsuit with Micron. I know you already settle with the U.S. Justice Department, right? But how about those with Micron and are you going to settle with the counterparts?

是的。好的。這很有幫助。這可能是齊東要問的問題。你能給我們一些全年的毛利率指導嗎？對不起，如果我錯過了。還有，與美光的訴訟。我知道你已經和美國司法部和解了，對吧？但是那些與美光有關的人呢？你打算與同行和解嗎？

We don't have full year guidance for gross margin. We do have 1 quarter -- first quarter gross margin guidance, which is in mid-20s. So hopefully, we will take it from there. For the lawsuit, we don't have any comments. If there's any significant development, we will disclose them accordingly in a timely manner.

我們沒有毛利率的全年指導。我們確實有一個季度 - 第一季度毛利率指導，這是在 20 年代中期。所以希望我們能從那裡開始。對於訴訟，我們沒有任何評論。如有重大進展，我們將及時予以披露。

But may I assume that the gross margin can gradually improve from here? Because the FX impact -- sorry, I'm not sure about FX impact's kind of a 1 quarter impact or assuming that the FX rate is the same for 2Q, would that negative impact on gross margin carry into 2Q? And also the depreciation trend, can you kind of comment on the core return of depreciation, FX impact and also the positive impact from the -- your wafer pricing? So we can kind of get a sense about the full year gross margin trend.

但我可以假設毛利率可以從這裡逐漸提高嗎？因為外匯影響——抱歉，我不確定外匯影響是否會產生 1 個季度的影響，或者假設 2 季度的匯率相同，這種對毛利率的負面影響是否會延續到 2 季度？還有貶值趨勢，您能否對貶值的核心回報、外匯影響以及您的晶圓定價的積極影響發表評論？因此，我們可以大致了解全年的毛利率趨勢。

The depreciation will go up/down quarter-over-quarter as I mentioned earlier. This year, we expect the full year depreciation to decline by roughly 5%, and next year it'll be a little bit more. As for the gross margin guidance, again, unfortunately, I don't have a crystal ball for the currency. So we can only give the current situation for first quarter, which is again mid-20s.

正如我之前提到的，折舊將按季度上升/下降。今年，我們預計全年折舊率將下降約 5%，明年會多一點。至於毛利率指導，不幸的是，我沒有貨幣水晶球。所以我們只能給出第一季度的現狀，也就是 20 年代中期。

And the last question is coming from Randy Abrams, Crédit Suisse.

最後一個問題來自瑞士信貸銀行的 Randy Abrams。

Okay. Hey, a few follow-ups. First on the CapEx, where before you were at TWD 1 billion and underspending. And I think part of that, your 28 wasn't full. With the move to TWD 1.5 billion, should we expect that's a new range? Like you're growing mid-single digit with about TWD 1.5 billion spend. So is that the framework to go on? Or do you even see a scenario that it -- with the focus on 28, it could even start to push a bit higher?

好的。嘿，一些跟進。首先是資本支出，之前您的資本支出為 10 億新台幣且支出不足。我認為其中的一部分，你的 28 歲還沒有滿。隨著轉移到 15 億新台幣，我們應該期待這是一個新的範圍嗎？就像您以大約 15 億新台幣的支出實現了中等個位數的增長。那麼這是繼續的框架嗎？或者你是否甚至看到一個場景 - 關注 28，它甚至可以開始推高一點？

Well, Randy, the first comment I have is our stated ROI-driven CapEx strategy, that did not change. So we'll continue following that principle. So despite the needs, the upside in customers demand and forecast, even with the 28-nanometers, the market situation is not the only consideration that's into our 2021 CapEx budget. Our plan right now is we want to focus on maintaining UMC's market relevance and increase the customer stickiness and base our value proposition, our solutions and the manufacturing and as well as the critical mass on our capacity offering. So this strategy and the principle, it requires to follow a rigorous evaluation process, right? So we continue doing that, okay? And so we have quite a bit of foundry to do that, to make sure that we deploy the right amount of the CapEx. At this time, it's TWD 1.5 billion and for the upcoming next year, we will provide that guidance when we're ready.

嗯，蘭迪，我的第一條評論是我們聲明的投資回報率驅動的資本支出戰略，這沒有改變。所以我們將繼續遵循這一原則。因此，儘管有需求、客戶需求和預測的上行空間，但即使是 28 納米，市場情況也不是我們 2021 年資本支出預算的唯一考慮因素。我們現在的計劃是我們希望專注於保持聯電的市場相關性並增加客戶粘性，並基於我們的價值主張、我們的解決方案和製造，以及我們提供的容量提供的關鍵質量。那麼這個策略和原則，它需要遵循一個嚴格的評估過程，對吧？所以我們繼續這樣做，好嗎？因此，我們有相當多的鑄造廠來做這件事，以確保我們部署適量的資本支出。目前，它是 15 億新台幣，對於即將到來的明年，我們將在準備就緒時提供該指導。

Okay. Great. If I could ask on the SMIC, it looked like there were a lot of fears, 3, 6 months back of restriction of U.S. tools. And now with the latest, they may get access to mature tools. I'm curious from a market dynamic, did you see any accelerated kind of diversification efforts? And have those efforts slowed down or reversed?

好的。偉大的。如果我可以問中芯國際，看起來有很多恐懼，3、6 個月前限制美國工具。現在有了最新的，他們可以使用成熟的工具。我很好奇市場動態，您是否看到任何加速的多元化努力？這些努力是否放緩或逆轉了？

Well, I mean, first of all, prior to the -- any of the export restriction, the wafer demand was already very strong. The demand situation was remained strong as we have come this will last throughout the entire 2021 and driven by many of the momentum. So I haven't seen much of a change from that. And even with what the media or any speculation in terms of the approval in the legacy, we can't comment on the competitors or any media speculation. But the way we see it is we believe the semi demand now is surpassed the supply. And it's -- in our view, this is not related to any development of export restriction at all. And so I think our competitiveness advantage is going to be on our own capability. It's not going to be on any top -- on the geopolitical or trade dynamics.

嗯，我的意思是，首先，在任何出口限制之前，晶圓需求已經非常強勁。隨著我們的到來，需求形勢依然強勁，這將持續整個 2021 年，並受到許多勢頭的推動。所以我沒有看到太大的變化。即使有媒體或任何關於遺產批准的猜測，我們也不能對競爭對手或任何媒體猜測發表評論。但我們的看法是，我們認為現在的半成品需求已經超過了供應。在我們看來，這與出口限制的任何發展完全無關。所以我認為我們的競爭優勢將取決於我們自己的能力。它不會在地緣政治或貿易動態方面處於任何領先地位。

Okay. And one other question. I think a quarter ago, there was still some underutilization in the Japan fab and also from a little bit lower CIS. Has that loading now picked back up? Or is there opportunity to get some of the automotive customers for that fab if it's not quite full?

好的。還有一個問題。我認為一個季度前，日本工廠還有一些未充分利用，獨聯體也有一點低。現在負載恢復了嗎？或者，如果工廠還不夠滿，是否有機會為該工廠爭取一些汽車客戶？

You have very good memory. Yes. Yes. The -- our last call, we actually talked about that. We stated the 90-nanometer will be a throw, and the business will start to recover during the first half of this year. And we are seeing that. And the production rate on some of the wireless communication product will increase our 90-nanometer's contribution. And this ramp will start towards the end of the Q1 and beginning in Q2. So it's our expectation by Q2 and will be fully low down this node.

你的記憶力很好。是的。是的。我們的最後一次通話，我們實際上談到了這一點。我們說 90 納米將是一個投擲，業務將在今年上半年開始復蘇。我們正在看到這一點。而一些無線通信產品的生產率將增加我們90納米的貢獻。這個斜坡將在第一季度末開始，從第二季度開始。所以這是我們對第二季度的預期，並將完全低於該節點。

Okay. And one last, just a couple of housekeeping. The noncontrolling interest has been moving around, but the expectation on that where it's probably the Xiamen JV partner. And if you could also clarify on OpEx, I think to Bruce's question, would OpEx grow with sales or OpEx would be kind of stable in absolute dollars? I just want to clarify the OpEx rate.

好的。最後一個，只是一些家務。非控股權益一直在轉移，但預期可能是廈門合資夥伴。如果您也可以澄清 OpEx，我認為對於 Bruce 的問題，OpEx 會隨著銷售額增長還是 OpEx 會在絕對美元方面保持穩定？我只想澄清 OpEx 率。

We certainly want to keep it within 13% to 14% of revenue range.

我們當然希望將其保持在收入範圍的 13% 至 14% 之內。

Okay. And then for the noncontrolling interest, is there a way to think how that would trend? If you get closer to breakeven, that minority interest would come down?

好的。然後對於非控制性利益，有沒有辦法考慮它的趨勢？如果你接近收支平衡，少數股東權益會下降嗎？

That's right. That's correct.

這是正確的。這是正確的。

We thank you for all your questions. That concludes today's Q&A session. I'll turn things over to UMC Head of IR for closing remarks.

我們感謝您提出的所有問題。今天的問答環節到此結束。我會把事情交給 UMC 的 IR 負責人作結束語。

Thank you, everyone, for dialing this conference today. We appreciate your questions. As always, if you have any additional follow-up questions, please feel free to contact UMC at ir@umc.com. Have a good day.

感謝大家撥通今天的電話會議。感謝您提出問題。與往常一樣，如果您有任何其他後續問題，請隨時通過 ir@umc.com 聯繫 UMC。祝你有美好的一天。

Thank you, Mr. Lin. And ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our conference for fourth quarter 2020. Thank you for your participation in UMC's conference. There will be a webcast replay within an hour. Please visit www.umc.com under the Investors, Events section. You may now disconnect. Goodbye.

謝謝你，林先生。女士們，先生們，我們 2020 年第四季度的會議到此結束。感謝您參加 UMC 的會議。一個小時內將進行網絡廣播重播。請訪問投資者、活動部分下的 www.umc.com。您現在可以斷開連接。再見。