聯華電子 (UMC) 2021 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Welcome, everyone, to UMC's 2021 Second Quarter Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) For your information, this conference call is now being broadcasted live over the Internet. Webcast replay will be available within an hour after the conference is finished. Please visit our website, www.umc.com, under the Investor Relations, Investors Events section.

歡迎大家參加聯華電子 2021 年第二季財報電話會議。 （操作員說明）僅供參考，本次電話會議現透過網路進行現場直播。會議結束後一小時內將提供網路直播重播。請造訪我們的網站 www.umc.com，位於「投資者關係」、「投資者活動」部分。

And now I would like to introduce Mr. Michael Lin, Head of Investor Relations at UMC. And Mr. Lin, please begin.

現在我想介紹一下聯華電子投資者關係主管 Michael Lin 先生。林先生，請開始。

Thank you, and welcome to the UMC's conference call for the Second Quarter of 2021. I'm joined by Mr. Jason Wang, the President of UMC; and Mr. Chitung Liu, the CFO of UMC. In a moment, we will hear our CFO present the second quarter financial results, followed by our President's key message to address UMC's forecast and the third quarter 2021 guidance.

謝謝大家，歡迎參加聯電 2021 年第二季電話會議。以及聯華電子財務長劉啟東先生。稍後，我們將聽到我們的財務長介紹第二季的財務業績，然後是我們的總裁針對 UMC 的預測和 2021 年第三季指導的關鍵訊息。

Once our President and the CFO complete their remarks, there will be a Q&A session. UMC's quarterly financial reports are available at our website, www.umc.com, under the Investors Financial section. During this conference, we may make forward-looking statements based on management's current expectations and beliefs.

一旦我們的總裁和財務長完成發言，就會有問答環節。 UMC 的季度財務報告可在我們的網站 www.umc.com 的「投資者財務」部分取得。在這次會議期間，我們可能會根據管理層目前的期望和信念做出前瞻性陳述。

These forward-looking statements are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially, including the risks that may be beyond the company's control. For these risks, please refer to UMC's filing with the SEC in the U.S. and the ROC security authorities.

這些前瞻性陳述受到許多風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果出現重大差異，包括可能超出公司控制範圍的風險。對於這些風險，請參閱聯華電子向美國 SEC 和中華民國安全機構提交的文件。

Now I would like to introduce UMC's CFO, Mr. Chitung Liu, to discuss UMC's second quarter 2021 financial results.

現在我想介紹聯電財務長劉啟東先生，討論聯華電子2021年第二季的財務表現。

Thank you, Michael. I would like to go through the 2Q '21 investor conference presentation material, which can be downloaded from our website. Starting on Page 3, the second quarter of 2021, consolidated revenue was over the TWD 50 billion mark to reach TWD 50.91 billion, with a gross margin at 31.3%. The net income attributable to the stockholder of the parent was TWD 11.94 billion, and earnings per ordinary shares were TWD 0.98. Our utilization rate in this quarter remained at 100% plus for second quarter.

謝謝你，麥可。我想瀏覽一下 2021 年第二季度投資者會議演示材料，該材料可以從我們的網站下載。從2021年第二季第3頁開始，合併營收突破500億新台幣大關，達到509.1億新台幣，毛利率為31.3%。歸屬母公司股東淨利為新台幣119.4億元，每股普通股收益為新台幣0.98元。本季我們的利用率維持在第二季的 100% 以上。

And the wafer shipment in Q2 of 2021 was 2.44-million-inch wafer equivalent. Please turn to Page 4. Our quarterly revenue in the second quarter reached TWD 50.9 billion, up 8.1%, helped both by the higher wafer shipment as well as increased ASP. Profit margin as a result increased to 31.3% or TWD 15.9 billion. And overall net income attributable to the shareholder of the parent is 23.5% or TWD 11.9 billion. EPS in Q2 2021 was TWD 0.98.

2021年第二季晶圓出貨量為244萬吋晶圓當量。請翻至第4頁。利潤率因此增加至 31.3%，即 159 億新台幣。整體歸屬於母公司股東的淨利為 23.5%，即新台幣 119 億。 2021 年第二季 EPS 為新台幣 0.98。

On Page 5, for the first 6 months of the year, year-over-year comparison, revenue grew by 13.1%, mainly driven by higher volume as well as better product mix and also higher ASP. However, it was somewhat dampened by the increased NT dollar exchange rate against U.S. dollars.

在第 5 頁上，今年前 6 個月，營收年增 13.1%，主要是由於銷量增加、產品組合改善以及平均售價上升。然而，由於新台幣兌美元匯率上漲，這在一定程度上受到了抑制。

Gross profit margin reached 29% for the first half of 2021 to TWD 28.4 billion. And overall net income reached TWD 22.3 billion or 22.8% margins. EPS for the first 6 months of the year is TWD 1.83.

2021年上半年毛利率達29%至284億新台幣。整體淨利達到新台幣223億，利潤22.8%。今年前 6 個月的 EPS 為新台幣 1.83。

For our balance sheet, our cash on hand is about TWD 124 billion, including about TWD 20 billion will be distributed to shareholders as cash dividend in mid of August. And total equity reached TWD 240 billion, and the net asset dollar value per share is around $19.3. On Page 8, our revenue breakdown by locations. Asia increased -- sorry, on page 8 -- yes, Page 8. Revenue breakdown, Asia remained at 63% and Japan increased to about 7%, and the rest 2 regions remained somewhat unchanged.

資產負債表方面，我們的現金約為1,240億新台幣，其中約200億新台幣將於8月中旬以現金股息的形式發放給股東。總股本達2,400億新台幣，每股資產淨值約19.3美元。第 8 頁顯示了我們按地點劃分的收入明細。亞洲成長了——抱歉，在第 8 頁——是的，在第 8 頁。

I'm sorry, on Page 7, therefore, I can skip the page earlier. ASP in quarter 2 increased by close to 5%. So back to Page 9. IDM represents 16% of the total revenue and Fabless is the rest of 84%. On Page 10, our Communications segment is 47%. Consumer is around 26%.

抱歉，在第 7 頁，因此我可以提前跳過該頁。第二季的平均售價成長了接近 5%。回到第 9 頁。在第 10 頁，我們的通訊部門佔 47%。消費者約26%。

So on Page 11, our overall revenue below 40-nanometer is around 38%, and 28-nanometer since it's running at 100% capacity utilization rate is around 20%, similar to that of last quarter. And our capacity -- total capacity table show some incremental increase, mainly for 12A as well as 12X. And going forward, for third quarter, there will still be some debottleneck type of capacity increase for selected sets.

所以在第11頁，我們40奈米以下的整體收入約為38％，而28奈米由於其產能利用率為100％，因此約為20％，與上季度相似。我們的容量-總容量表顯示了一些增量成長，主要是12A和12X。展望第三季度，某些特定機組仍將出現一些消除瓶頸的產能增加。

So for Page 13, our CapEx for 2021. The budget remained unchanged to around USD 2.3 billion. So the above is a summary of UMC's results for Q2 2021. More details are available in the report, which has been posted on our website. I will now turn the call over to President of UMC, Mr. Jason Wang.

因此，對於第 13 頁，我們 2021 年的資本支出。以上是聯華電子 2021 年第二季業績的摘要。我現在將電話轉給聯華電子總裁王傑森先生。

Thank you, Chitung. Good evening, everyone. Here, I would like to update the second quarter operating result of UMC. Strong demand fueled by 5G adoption and digital transformation underpinned our strong performance in the second quarter. Our manufacturing facility is 100% utilization, while overall wafer shipment rose 3% quarter-over-quarter to 2.44 million, 8-inch equivalents.

謝謝你，吉東。大家晚上好。在此，我想更新聯華電子第二季的經營業績。 5G 採用和數位轉型推動的強勁需求支撐了我們第二季的強勁業績。我們的製造工廠利用率為 100%，而整體晶圓出貨量較上季成長 3%，達到 244 萬片（8 吋當量）。

Revenue from 28-nanometer technology continued to grow sequentially, build by application incorporate into 4G, 5G smartphones, solid-state drive and digital TV.

28奈米技術的收入持續環比成長，主要應用於4G、5G智慧型手機、固態硬碟和數位電視。

During the quarter, we continued our product optimization and cost reduction efforts, lifting our gross margin. We expect the strength of structural demand to sustain and support the continuous improvement of a blended ASP. As a result, the company's gross profit in the first half of 2021 surged 54.5% year-over-year to TWD 28.4 billion.

本季度，我們持續進行產品優化和成本降低工作，毛利率有所提升。我們預計結構性需求的強勁將維持並支持混合平均售價的持續改善。因此，該公司2021年上半年毛利年增54.5%至284億新台幣。

Looking ahead, we anticipate demand to stay robust in the third quarter, driven by megatrends such as 5G and EV. Supply tightness is expected to continue across 8-inch and 12-inch facilities. We foresee margin momentum to continue into the third quarter, supported by further product mix optimization, cost reduction efforts and productivity enhancements. In addition, we expect the adoption rate of our 22-nanometer technologies will continue to gain traction, reflected by a pickup in customers' 22 product tape-outs in connectivity and display applications.

展望未來，我們預計在 5G 和電動車等大趨勢的推動下，第三季需求將保持強勁。預計 8 英寸和 12 英寸工廠的供應將繼續緊張。我們預計，在進一步產品組合優化、成本降低和生產力提高的支持下，利潤成長動能將持續到第三季。此外，我們預計 22 奈米技術的採用率將繼續提高，這反映在客戶在連接和顯示應用中的 22 種產品流片數量的增加。

We will also focus on further strengthening our leadership position in a number of specialty technologies, such as OLED display drivers, RF SOI and image applications. Moreover, we continue to take important steps to enhance our corporate governance and lead sustainability efforts in our industry. Earlier this month, 5 independent directors were newly elected to our company's Board of Directors, representing more than 50% of the Board seats and including 2 female directors.

我們還將專注於進一步加強我們在一些專業技術方面的領導地位，例如 OLED 顯示驅動器、RF SOI 和影像應用。此外，我們繼續採取重要措施來加強我們的公司治理並引領業界的永續發展努力。本月早些時候，公司董事會新選舉了5名獨立董事，佔董事會席位的50%以上，其中女性董事2名。

The company also announced its pledge to reach net-zero carbon emissions by 2050, as well as our commitments to work alongside our partners to reduce carbon intensiveness and rise renewable energy usage in our supply chain. UMC is dedicated to enhance our corporate governance as well as addressing climate change to build a sustainable environment.

該公司還宣布承諾在 2050 年實現淨零碳排放，並承諾與合作夥伴一起降低碳強度並增加供應鏈中的再生能源使用量。聯華電子致力於加強公司治理並應對氣候變化，打造永續發展的環境。

Now let's move on to third quarter 2021 guidance. Our wafer shipments will increase by 1% to 2%. ASP in U.S. dollar will increase by approximately 6%. Gross profit margin will be in the mid-30% range. Capacity utilization rate will be at 100%. Our 2021 cash-based CapEx will be budgeted at USD 2.3 billion. That concludes my comments. Thank you all for your attention. Now we are ready for questions.

現在讓我們繼續討論 2021 年第三季的指導。我們的晶圓出貨量將成長1%至2%。美元平均售價將上漲約 6%。毛利率將在30%左右。產能利用率將達100%。我們 2021 年以現金為基礎的資本支出預算為 23 億美元。我的評論到此結束。感謝大家的關注。現在我們準備好提問了。

(Operator Instructions) The first question is coming from Randy Abrams, Crédit Suisse.

（操作員說明）第一個問題來自瑞士信貸銀行的蘭迪·艾布拉姆斯。

Congratulations on the continued improvement. First question I wanted to ask on your strategy for mature 12-inch and 8-inch. Last quarter, when you announced the expansion, it looked more tied to 28 and 40. So I'm curious if you have plans on available capacity to add for the more mature nodes for us on 8-inch?

恭喜您的持續改進。第一個問題我想問一下你們對於成熟的12吋和8吋的策略。上個季度，當您宣布擴展時，它看起來與 28 和 40 更相關。

Well, the last time we announced the P6 is all centered with the 28-nanometer capacity with the option to upgrade to 22 in the future, okay? We -- in terms of the other notes, in addition to 28, we mainly focused on some of the limited broad space expansion.

嗯，上次我們宣布的 P6 都是以 28 奈米產能為主，未來還可以升級到 22 奈米，好嗎？我們－就其他註釋而言，除了28條之外，我們主要關註一些有限的廣闊​​空間擴展。

So it's rather limited on 40 as well as 50. In general, our strategy in the CapEx is we remain our disciplined CapEx philosophy, and from 2017. We always try to drive our sustainable structure profitability based on disciplined tax principle. So we have to align with our customer and as well as the market and giving our relevance in the marketplace before we're making that decision.

因此，它相當有限，介於40 和50 之間。可持續結構獲利能力。因此，在做出決定之前，我們必須與客戶和市場保持一致，並在市場中提供相關性。

At this point, we're more focused on the 28 technology at this time. For the -- in general, the 12-inch material node and 8-inch are facing our ROI challenges in capacity expansion investment. And we are looking for opportunity to work with our customers to overcome the challenges if possible. In the meantime, we will continue to enhance our productivity improvement and strengthen our value proposition to enhance the customer stickiness within those nodes. That's sort of how we address this.

此時，我們此時更關注28技術。對於－總體而言，12吋材料節點和8吋在產能擴張投資方面面臨我們的ROI挑戰。如果可能的話，我們正在尋找與客戶合作的機會來克服挑戰。同時，我們將繼續提高生產力並強化我們的價值主張，以增強這些節點內的客戶黏著度。這就是我們解決這個問題的方式。

Okay. And I guess in talking like to overcome challenges, is it your view is just not the economics, like the return to invest on more mature 12-inch and just not many opportunities to find 8-inch space? Is that more of the issue or just more of the view market demand, more of your opportunities, 28 and 40? So that's where you'll put the investment?

好的。我想在談到克服挑戰時，您的觀點是否與經濟學無關，例如投資更成熟的 12 英寸的回報，而找到 8 英寸空間的機會不多？這是更多的問題還是更多的觀點市場需求，更多的機會，28 歲和 40 歲？那麼這就是您將投資的地方？

You're right. It's more of economics and the full space available. But for any greenfield capacity expansion, for the mature node, you are competing with a fully -- most likely, you're going to be competing with a fully depreciated capacity. Unless the demand is significantly important to the customer, but the economics -- if the economics stay the same, it will be very difficult to have a justified ROI. However, if the customer is willing to face those challenges together with us, we will definitely explore those opportunities.

你說得對。更多的是經濟和可用空間。但對於任何綠地容量擴張，對於成熟節點，您正在與完全 - 最有可能的是，您將與完全折舊的容量競爭。除非需求對客戶非常重要，但經濟性—如果經濟性保持不變，則很難獲得合理的投資報酬率。但是，如果客戶願意與我們一起面對這些挑戰，我們一定會探索這些機會。

Okay. Great. That's helpful. Second question on pricing. It's getting another good...

好的。偉大的。這很有幫助。第二個問題，關於定價。又迎來了一個好消息...

Excuse me. Hello?

打擾一下。你好？

Hello?

你好？

Yes.

是的。

Randy, you are breaking up. Yes, can you repeat your question?

蘭迪，你們要分手了。是的，你能重複一下你的問題嗎？

Okay. Yes. Okay. Sorry, I was cut out for a second. Okay. Yes, the second question I wanted to ask, if you could discuss your view on pricing from the higher base, where it's up nicely in third quarter. Do you expect it would continuously grow in fourth quarter? And if you have an initial view on 2022, the pricing, if you've said anything or even for the new phase, the Phase 5 expansion if you get higher price? And then do you have a target like where gross margin factoring the pricing you're seeing where the potential gross margin could move toward?

好的。是的。好的。抱歉，我被打擾了一秒鐘。好的。是的，我想問的第二個問題是，您是否可以從較高的基數討論您對定價的看法，第三季的定價很好。您預計第四季會持續成長嗎？如果您對 2022 年的定價有初步的看法，如果您說過什麼，甚至對於新階段、第 5 階段的擴建，您是否會獲得更高的價格？然後，您是否有一個目標，例如將您看到的潛在毛利率可能走向的定價因素考慮在內的毛利率？

Well, we typically don't provide any guidance beyond the quarter. So we definitely will address the Q4 guidance during the Q3 conference. But in general, it's our belief that pricing for structural demand is here to stay. And I also believe our customers start recognizing the UMC value and award our contribution. So we do expect the strength of structured demand -- momentum will sustain beyond the Q4 2021.

嗯，我們通常不會在本季度之後提供任何指導。因此，我們肯定會在第三季會議期間討論第四季度的指導。但總的來說，我們相信結構性需求的定價將持續下去。我也相信我們的客戶開始認識到聯華電子的價值並獎勵我們的貢獻。因此，我們確實預計結構性需求的強勁勢頭將持續到 2021 年第四季之後。

Okay. And just 1 last follow-up. Looking out to 2023, since you announced your expansion, like a number of foundries are also seeing that need and adding capacity, do you see by '23 -- you're contracting in to fix it. But do you view by '23, a change in that kind of structural, at least or maybe cyclical, more supply and at that point, kind of pricing goes back to the normal kind of some erosion? Or how do you see it looking out 2 years as some of these Fabs come online?

好的。只有最後 1 次跟進。展望 2023 年，自從您宣布擴張以來，許多代工廠也看到了這種需求並增加了產能，您是否認為到 23 年，您將簽訂合約來修復它。但你是否認為到 23 年，這種結構性的變化，至少或可能是週期性的，更多的供應，到那時，某種定價會回到正常的某種程度的侵蝕？或者，您如何看待 2 年後這些晶圓廠的上線？

Well, again, I mean we're not here to predict the -- about the nature of this industry. But in general, a new greenfield Fab will take more than 2 years to build, right? Just like you said, we're not looking at this tightness situation to get relief until 2023. And however, based on the industry research, the worldwide semiconductor market growth rate will actually accelerate all the way from 2020 to 2025, driven by the 5G digital transformation, HPC, EV and IoT.

好吧，我再說一遍，我們不是來預測這個產業的性質的。但一般來說，一座新的新晶圓廠需要兩年以上的時間來建設，對嗎？正如您所說，這種緊張狀況要到2023年才會得到緩解。 、高效能運算、電動車和物聯網。

And so we do believe this up cycle will continue for a period. Of course, we can never guarantee 100% back loading in all the time. From the financials perspective, we have to maintain an edge in cost competitiveness to ensure the healthy gross margin, so that allow UMC to weather the storm during the downturn. So from that standpoint, we have to address this fundamentally, okay?

因此，我們確實相信這種上升週期將持續一段時間。當然，我們永遠無法保證始終 100% 回載。從財務角度來看，我們必須維持成本競爭力的優勢，以確保健康的毛利率，才能讓聯電度過經濟低迷時期。所以從這個角度來看，我們必須從根本解決這個問題，好嗎？

And in order to address this -- maintain such healthier ASP or gross margin, let's say, what we do is from the recent up-cycle, we take the opportunity to optimize our product portfolio, enhance our technology competitiveness, and with -- along with our manufacturing capability. And we believe those efforts can strengthen our relationship with the customer and UMC's market position to maintain the current position.

為了解決這個問題——保持更健康的平均售價或毛利率，我們所做的就是從最近的上升週期開始，我們藉此機會優化我們的產品組合，增強我們的技術競爭力，並且——以我們的製造能力。我們相信這些努力可以加強我們與客戶的關係以及聯華電子的市場地位，以維持目前的地位。

So I'm not here to predict whether we can approach this ASP continuously. But I do think by enhancing our capability, we'll be able to compensate the market volatility or even potential capacity oversupply situation.

所以我在這裡並不是要預測我們是否能夠持續接近這個 ASP。但我確實認為，透過增強我們的能力，我們將能夠彌補市場波動甚至潛在的產能供過於求的情況。

And next question is coming from Brett Simpson, (inaudible) Research.

下一個問題來自（聽不清楚）研究部門的 Brett Simpson。

I wanted to ask about some of the long-term agreements you're signing. And what sort of commitment, wafer commitment guarantees are being negotiated? And how enforceable these agreements are, particularly if we see industry conditions start to normalize after this unusual period of supply challenges? Anything you can share with us around the enforceability of any sort of wafer commitments that your customers are making here long term?

我想問一下你們正在簽署的一些長期協議。正在談判什麼樣的承諾、晶圓承諾保證？這些協議的可執行性如何，特別是如果我們看到產業狀況在這段不尋常的供應挑戰時期開始正常化的話？關於您的客戶在這裡做出的長期晶圓承諾的可執行性，您有什麼可以與我們分享的嗎？

Well, the -- we reported last quarter, the agreement has a long-term protection mechanism to ensure the -- our newly expanded capacity will be maintained at a healthy level. The -- such mechanism includes the mutual obligations from customers as well as from our side. And so by fulfilling those obligations, we believe that the loading can be sustained at a healthy level.

那麼，我們在上個季度報道過，該協議有一個長期保護機制，以確保我們新擴大的產能將保持在健康的水平。這種機制包括客戶和我們雙方的相互義務。因此，透過履行這些義務，我們相信裝載量可以維持在健康的水平。

As far as the detail of the mechanism, I'm not elaborate to share on the call, but I -- but we have -- we actually have a very serious and comprehensive discussion with our customer, and we do believe such mechanism is adequately adopted.

至於機制的細節，我不會在電話會議上詳細分享，但我——但是我們——我們實際上與我們的客戶進行了非常認真和全面的討論，我們確實相信這樣的機制是充分的通過了。

And so even if we have a sudden change in industry conditions, you feel quite confident that your customer obligations will be -- they will continue to commit to those obligations, basically if there's an oversupply situation in the industry or something that we see in the years to come?

因此，即使我們的行業狀況突然發生變化，您也非常有信心您的客戶義務將繼續履行這些義務，基本上，如果行業出現供過於求的情況或我們在行業中看到的情況未來幾年？

Yes, we believe it will be well protected from a financials -- potential financial implication.

是的，我們相信它將得到很好的保護，免受潛在的財務影響。

Great. Great. And just 1 follow-up on dividends. Now that you're delivering healthy free cash flow, healthy margin -- improvements in margins, can you talk a bit about the vision around dividends? And how to think about returns to shareholders? I mean we haven't had a sort of formal policy from UMC. Is it a payout ratio you look to target in terms of your dividend policy? Any thoughts there around? As you continue to sustain this type of margin structure, how the dividends might evolve going forward?

偉大的。偉大的。並且只有 1 次關於股利的後續行動。既然您正在提供健康的自由現金流、健康的利潤率——利潤率的提高，您能談談關於股息的願景嗎？又如何思考股東回報？我的意思是，我們還沒有得到聯電的正式政策。這是您在股利政策中希望達到的目標股利支付率嗎？周圍有什麼想法嗎？當您繼續維持這種類型的利潤結構時，股息未來可能會如何演變？

Yes. We do have a dividend policy, which is we will pay our distributable earnings in cash, no less than 50%. So that's our policy. Of course, for the recent years, we are much higher in terms of payout ratio. But I think going forward, we're looking to distribute a stable and hopefully increasing cash dividend along with our improved EPS.

是的。我們確實有股利政策，就是我們將以現金支付可分配收益，不少於50%。這就是我們的政策。當然，近年來我們的派息率要高得多。但我認為，展望未來，我們希望在每股收益提高的同時，分配穩定且有望增加的現金股利。

Great. And maybe just 1 final question. In terms of your implied Q3 -- the Q3 guide implies your wafer pricing is up high teens year-on-year. Does the current ASPs fully reflect your long-term agreements that are in place?

偉大的。也許只是最後一個問題。就您隱含的第三季而言，第三季指南意味著您的晶圓價格比去年同期上漲了十幾位數。目前的 ASP 是否充分反映了您現有的長期協議？

The long-term agreement won't kick in until 2023, if you are referring to the P6 project. I think our ASP increase is mainly driven by our product mix optimization in quarter 2. And there will be some price increase as well as product optimization continue into quarter 3. So the long-term contract for P6 won't be effective until 2023.

如果你指的是 P6 項目，長期協議要到 2023 年才會生效。我認為我們的 ASP 成長主要是由第二季的產品組合優化所推動的。

And next, we'll have Charlie Chan of Morgan Stanley for questions.

接下來，我們將請摩根士丹利的 Charlie Chan 提問。

Congratulations for great results. So I also really want to follow up some questions about the pricing. So just a hypothetical question, right? If there is a kind of a cycle downturn, how confident that management can maintain the current wafer price? I'm not talking about the P6. I'm talking about other than P6, whether companies think that price can sustain in the down cycle?

祝賀取得優異成績。所以我也想跟進一些定價的問題。所以這只是一個假設性問題，對嗎？如果出現某種週期衰退，管理階層對維持目前晶圓價格的信心有多大？我不是說P6。我說的是除了P6以外，企業是否認為在下行週期中價格能夠維持？

Well, I mean we are giving guidance for 2021. So we don't think there's any inflection point of the down cycle yet. So the -- for a hypothetical question going into, let's say, 2023, 2024 for whatever reason, there is a so-called down cycle. We just have to execute in our plan, like I mentioned earlier, to Randy's question.

嗯，我的意思是我們正在為 2021 年提供指導。因此，對於進入 2023 年、2024 年的假設問題，無論出於何種原因，都會存在所謂的下行週期。我們只需要執行我們的計劃，就像我之前提到的，針對蘭迪的問題。

There's a lot of activity associated with that. So I don't really think this is the right time to predict whether this is going to be a down cycle or not, but we are definitely prepared to dealing with those situations. So our technology offering to our manufacturing capability as well as based on the selected market that more associated with the structural demand.

有許多與此相關的活動。因此，我真的認為現在還不是預測這是否會進入下行週期的正確時機，但我們絕對準備好應對這些情況。因此，我們為我們的製造能力提供的技術以及基於與結構性需求更相關的選定市場。

And we believe those activity will help us with our -- the vulnerability in terms of demand change. I think that's how we address that issue. And we -- of course, again, I'm saying that we can't really guarantee there's always up-cycle. But given what we have seen in the recent up-cycle, we already took those opportunities to optimize our product portfolio and along with enhancing our technology competitiveness to align with our customers. So we are seeing a good progress on that front.

我們相信這些活動將幫助我們解決需求變化的脆弱性。我認為這就是我們解決這個問題的方式。當然，我再說一遍，我們不能真正保證總是有升級週期。但考慮到我們在最近的上升週期中所看到的情況，我們已經利用這些機會來優化我們的產品組合，並增強我們的技術競爭力，以與我們的客戶保持一致。因此，我們在這方面看到了良好的進展。

Okay. Yes, so when you form your wafer price, no matter for this year or 2022, do you really compare or refer to your industry peers, especially the so-called industry leader, TSMC? So my question is actually, do you see, for example, at the 28-nanometer or 40-nanometer, do you see any technology gap or quality performance difference versus TSMC? And whether you can price on par or even higher than TSMC?

好的。是的，所以你在製定你的晶圓價格時，無論今年還是2022年，你真的會比較或參考你的行業同行，特別是所謂的行業龍頭台積電嗎？所以我的問題實際上是，例如，在 28 奈米或 40 奈米，您是否看到與台積電相比有任何技術差距或品質性能差異？價格能否與台積電持平甚至更高？

Well, we do believe we are competitive in those technology nodes, process nodes. In fact, we'll continue driving our technology offering to enhance those areas, in particularly on the high-v, RFSOI, the BCD and better fresh area.

嗯，我們確實相信我們在這些技術節點、製程節點上具有競爭力。事實上，我們將繼續推動我們的技術產品來增強這些領域，特別是在高電壓、RFSOI、BCD 和更好的新鮮領域。

We'll continue to strengthen our offering in the technology area. So I think we are reasonably competitive in those space, not if we are in the leading position. So as far as for the price ASP goals, we do believe that customer start recognizing that and start reflecting -- the ASC starts reflecting some of our technology offering and competitiveness.

我們將繼續加強我們在技術領域的服務。因此，我認為我們在這些領域具有相當的競爭力，即使我們處於領先地位。因此，就 ASP 目標而言，我們確實相信客戶開始認識到這一點並開始反思——ASC 開始反映我們的一些技術產品和競爭力。

And we've seen the market price -- industry marketplace is a good reference, and we'll continue to benchmark those and we think we are already bridging the gap and into a comfortable level. Yes.

我們已經看到了市場價格——行業市場是一個很好的參考，我們將繼續對這些價格進行基準測試，我們認為我們已經縮小了差距並達到了一個舒適的水平。是的。

And then some of housekeeping question, right? I mean I'm not sure what was the progress of your China Xiamen Fab, right, because previously, there were some chatters about there is some difficulty for China to import some equipment's, for example, AP2 from applied materials. Do you think that would affect your capacity expansion plan in China for 20-nanometer? And also the question to Chitung is about, from here, right, your gross margin is around mid-30%. What is the company's long-term financial goal in terms of gross margin, OP margin and ROE?

然後還有一些家事問題，對嗎？我的意思是我不知道你們中國廈門工廠的進展如何，對吧，因為之前有一些傳言說中國進口一些設備有一些困難，例如應用材料的AP2。您認為這會影響您在中國20奈米的產能擴張計畫嗎？ Chitung 的問題是，從這裡開始，你們的毛利率大約在 30% 左右。公司的毛利率、營業利益率和淨資產收益率方面的長期財務目標是多少？

So for 12-inch in Xiamen. Our Xiamen 12-inch wafer fab, we actually have already reached the full scale of 26.5k per month based on our design capacity. So pretty much we reached what we intended to expand for Xiamen fab already. For our GM question, the GM outlook, our CEO, our President, will comment on that.

所以在廈門買12吋的。我們廈門的12吋晶圓廠，按照我們的設計產能，實際上已經達到了月產2.65萬片的滿規模。我們已經基本達到了廈門工廠擴建的目標。對於我們的通用汽車問題、通用汽車前景，我們的執行長、我們的總裁將對此發表評論。

For the gross margin outlook, our gross margin outlook will be mainly derived from our production efficiency as well as the ASP trend. UMC as the company will continue to work on the product mix optimization. I kind of touched that earlier and continued efforts on cost reduction efforts and operational efficiency in order to strengthen our structural gross margin. So we do have expectations that continue to improve us, yes.

對於毛利率前景，我們的毛利率前景將主要來自我們的生產效率以及平均售價趨勢。聯華電子公司將繼續致力於產品結構的最佳化。我有點提到，為了加強我們的結構性毛利率，我們之前一直在努力降低成本和提高營運效率。所以我們確實有不斷提高我們的期望，是的。

And next question, Roland Shu, Citigroup.

下一個問題是花旗集團的 Roland Shu。

Now your 28-nanometer is the biggest node in revenue. I would like to know how about the -- does that 28-nanometer is contributed to the upside to your total profit? And also for your 45-nanometer, the revenue actually continued declining from 3Q last year. And is there any empathy or idle capacity for 45-nanometer? Or are you convert this 45-nanometer capacity to 28-nanometer or others? That's my first question.

現在你的28奈米是收入最大的節點。我想知道 28 奈米是否為你們的總利潤帶來了好處？同樣對於你們的45納米來說，收入其實比去年第三季持續下降。而45奈米還有同理心或閒置產能嗎？或者您將此 45 奈米容量轉換為 28 奈米或其他容量？這是我的第一個問題。

Yes. All our nodes are actually fully loaded. And keeping a different mix of wafer out in different quarters, you will see some variables in the mix of the technology node. By this time, there is no vacancy in the fab. In fact, all nodes are running over 100%. The question about the 28 expansion going forward for the -- to the gross margin.

是的。我們所有的節點其實都是滿載的。並且在不同的季度保留不同的晶圓組合，您會在技術節點的組合中看到一些變數。此時，晶圓廠已無空缺。事實上，所有節點的運作率都超過 100%。關於 28 未來毛利率擴張的問題。

And our unique 28 logic and specialty technology offering will enhance the customers' competitiveness. As a result, as in the customer's reliance on our 28 capacity is in great demand. This competitiveness will allow us to enjoy a healthier EBITDA margin in the longer term. In the longer term, we actually expect the 28-nanometer capacity expansion will play as a catalyst to further drive our gross margin expansion.

我們獨特的 28 種邏輯和專業技術產品將增強客戶的競爭力。因此，正如客戶對我們 28 產能的依賴一樣，需求量很大。從長遠來看，這種競爭力將使我們能夠享受更健康的 EBITDA 利潤率。從長遠來看，我們實際上預計28奈米產能擴張將成為進一步推動我們毛利率擴張的催化劑。

Understood. So even for your 3Q gross margin guidance, mid-30 percentage points, did also have a big contribution from 28-nanometer?

明白了。那麼，即使對於您的第三季毛利率指導，中間30個百分點，也有來自28奈米的巨大貢獻嗎？

Yes, the ASP in Q3 guidance, the ASP is expect to grow 6% quarter-over-quarter, primarily driven by price adjustment. In our Q2, the ASP increase is mainly driven by both the price adjustments on the select application in 12-inch in a mature site and as well as 8-inch, and also coupled with the product mix improvement, which means the higher 28 shipments. For Q3, our expected AC growth primarily driven by the price adjustment of 12- and 8-inch nodes.

是的，第三季的平均售價指引值，預計平均售價將較上季成長 6%，這主要是由價格調整所推動的。在我們的第二季度，平均售價的成長主要是由於成熟站點中 12 吋和 8 吋的精選應用的價格調整，以及產品組合的改善，這意味著 28 出貨量增加。對於第三季度，我們預期 AC 成長主要由 12 吋和 8 吋節點的價格調整推動。

Understood. Okay. Yes. But I think my question actually is for the gross margin for 28-nanometer. How does it contribute to your gross margin in 3Q?

明白了。好的。是的。但我認為我的問題實際上是28納米的毛利率。它對你們第三季的毛利率有何貢獻？

So Roland, we have mentioned that 28 has no doubt the higher EBITDA margin compared to the other main nodes, mainly because of higher ASP. And all the dynamics -- the parameters are dynamic quarter-over-quarter. So we cannot give you a straightforward answer. But as Jason just mentioned, for the longer term, 28 for sure will be a catalyst in driving our margin expansion.

Roland，我們已經提到，與其他主要節點相比，28 毫無疑問具有更高的 EBITDA 利潤率，主要是因為 ASP 更高。所有的動態－參數都是逐季度動態變化的。所以我們無法給您一個直接的答案。但正如 Jason 剛才提到的，從長遠來看，28 肯定會成為推動我們利潤率擴張的催化劑。

Understood. If I look at your annual report, at least your contract with [Jinhua] was due in May. So I would like to understand, will there any impact on your P&L or on your balance sheet from 3Q or on after this contract has been built in May?

明白了。如果我看一下你的年報，至少你和[金華]的合約是五月到期的。所以我想了解一下，從第三季到5月份這個合約簽訂之後，對你們的損益表或資產負債表會有什麼影響嗎？

So for the contract, it has been currently on hold, okay? So there's not any progress at all for these Jinhua-related activity. So no...

那麼對於合約來說，目前已經被擱置了，好嗎？所以這些與金華相關的活動根本沒有任何進展。所以不...

So no financial impact as well, right?

所以也沒有財務影響，對嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Okay. Okay. And also, now you have been node -- every node of your capacity at more than 100% utilization. However, given in the past several quarters, every quarter, you still manage to increase the capacity by several percentage points or by capacity debottlenecking. So I just want to know how long can you still debottleneck your capacity going forward? And will it be sustainable for you to increase this 2% to 3% or even several percent despite of the wafer shipment increase every quarter from capacity debottlenecking, even though you are not at very high utilization?

好的。好的。而且，現在您已成為節點——每個節點的容量利用率都超過 100%。然而，考慮到過去幾個季度，每個季度，你仍然設法將產能提高幾個百分點或透過產能去瓶頸。所以我只是想知道你還能在多長時間內消除你的能力瓶頸？儘管產能利用率不是很高，但由於產能去瓶頸，晶圓出貨量每季都會增加，您是否可以持續增加 2% 到 3% 甚至幾個百分點？

Well, debottlenecking and the productivity improvement is ongoing efforts that will continue. And for the capacity expansion is you're referring to the overall results here, our 2021 increased about 3%, right? And for the 2022, we expect to increase by another 6% year-over-year. So that's going to be a new expansion. And all the debottlenecking and the productivity improvement will be on ongoing basis.

嗯，消除瓶頸和提高生產力是持續的努力，並將繼續下去。至於產能擴張，你指的是這裡的整體結果，我們2021年成長了大約3%，對嗎？到 2022 年，我們預計將年增 6%。所以這將是一個新的擴展。所有的消除瓶頸和生產力的提高都將持續進行。

Next question coming from Szeho Ng, China Renaissance.

下一個問題來自華興資本的 Szeho Ng。

First question regarding P6. Initially, it's targeting the 28 and 22 nano. I just wondered if the capacity will be upgradable to a 14-nano or FinFET?

關於P6的第一個問題。最初，它的目標是 28 和 22 nm。我只是想知道容量是否可以升級到 14 奈米或 FinFET？

The answer is yes. The both nodes are flexible to manufacture for 14, Yes.

答案是肯定的。兩個節點均可靈活製造 14 個節點，是的。

Okay. Great. And how easy would that be for the upgrade? And how much would it cause roughly on a per K basis?

好的。偉大的。升級有多容易？以每 K 計算，它大約會造成多少影響？

Well, the number is -- actually, we -- I don't think we're ready to quote that number because the -- I said the number -- there's still some uncertainty with the numbers. But the comment on 28, the both to the 40 things that are in a high percentage range. So we do believe that is the right node for a potential upgrade. And since we're not there yet, whether we serve the specific number at a later time.

嗯，這個數字是——實際上，我們——我認為我們還沒有準備好引用這個數字，因為——我說的是這個數字——這些數字仍然存在一些不確定性。但28則評論中，這兩者與40條內容的比例都處於較高的範圍內。因此，我們確實相信這是潛在升級的正確節點。由於我們還沒有到達那裡，我們是否會在稍後的時間提供具體的號碼。

Okay. Great. Yes. No worry. And regarding the FinFET, what's the company's latest thoughts on that part of business?

好的。偉大的。是的。不用擔心。至於FinFET，該公司對該部分業務的最新想法是什麼？

Again, I didn't get that number.

再說一次，我沒有得到那個號碼。

What's the company's strategy for the FinFET going forward?

公司未來的 FinFET 策略是什麼？

Well, I mean when we developed the technology, the -- actually, when we see the capacity expansion on 14 a few years back, but we did not see the technology development on the 14 for the reason I mentioned earlier. Means the 14 and 28 is still at a high percentage of conversion ratio.

嗯，我的意思是，當我們開發技術時，實際上，幾年前當我們看到 14 號的產能擴張時，但由於我之前提到的原因，我們沒有看到 14 號的技術開發。意味著14和28仍然處於較高的轉換率百分比。

And also, the 14 does provide some technology advancements in terms of power and the savings. So we believe that's the right technology to continue develop. So at this point, the 14 has been fully developed. However, we are aligning with our customer and -- to triggering the CapEx decision.

此外，14 確實在功耗和節省方面提供了一些技術進步。因此，我們相信這是繼續發展的正確技術。那麼至此，14已經完全開發完成了。然而，我們正在與客戶保持一致，並觸發資本支出決策。

Given the current market outlook, the 28 remains to be a strong node. So we still prioritize our resource on the 28 at this time. So the option is there, but it's still subject to our, like I said, the CapEx policies. So we'll continue guided by that at the right time, at the right place and the right volume, we'll make that decision. So the 14 is an option for us.

考慮到目前的市場前景，28日仍然是一個強勢節點。所以我們這個時候還是優先考慮28號的資源。因此，選擇是存在的，但它仍然受到我們（就像我所說的）資本支出政策的約束。因此，我們將繼續以此為指導，在正確的時間、正確的地點和正確的數量，我們將做出決定。所以14是我們的一個選擇。

Okay. Great. And my second question is regarding the profitability of your Japan Fab. And how does it compare with the group average right now?

好的。偉大的。我的第二個問題是關於你們日本工廠的獲利能力。目前與團體平均相比如何？

So based on the integration effort at 12-inch, which saw Japanese Fab, the cost reduction activity and productivity improvement has led to a very efficient operation enhancement. Therefore, we do expect the 12-inch Japanese Fab gross margin will be in line with UMC's 12-inch corporate average.

因此，基於日本晶圓廠的 12 吋整合工作，成本降低活動和生產力提高導致了非常高效的營運增強。因此，我們預計 12 吋日本晶圓廠的毛利率將與聯華電子 12 吋企業平均值一致。

And next question is from Nicolas Barrett, Macquarie.

下一個問題來自麥格理的 Nicolas Barrett。

Could I clarify if I heard properly, Mr. Wang. Capacity, this year increased by 3% and next year, 6%. Was this correct?

王先生，如果我聽得對的話，我可以澄清一下嗎？產能，今年增加3%，明年增加6%。這是正確的嗎？

The capacity increase for 2021, this year, is 3%. That's the year-over-year for 2021. The 6% year-over-year is for in 2022.

今年2021年的產能增幅為3%。這是 2021 年的同比增長。

The 6% is in 2020. Since you're running at 100% utilization, does that give you better visibility into the coming quarters?

6% 是在 2020 年。

Visibility for the next quarter, of course, it's quite solid. And we continue to work with our customers closely about their rolling forecast. So for the visibility right now, of course, I think it's better than most of the time we experienced in the past.

當然，下個季度的能見度是相當可靠的。我們將繼續與客戶密切合作，以了解他們的滾動預測。因此，就目前的可見度而言，當然，我認為它比我們過去經歷的大多數時候都要好。

Would you say that gives you visibility into beginning of next year?

您是否認為這可以讓您了解明年初的情況？

All right. Well, I mean the -- we do have visibility because given the recent supply and demand in balance situation, customers tend to have a longer-term discussion with us. So yes, the answer is, yes, we do have a visibility all the way strong now to end of 2022.

好的。嗯，我的意思是——我們確實有可見性，因為考慮到最近的供需平衡情況，客戶傾向於與我們進行長期討論。所以，是的，答案是，是的，從現在到 2022 年底，我們的知名度確實很高。

But again, this is a dynamic -- market dynamics in there. So we have to continue tracking the market. Given the current observation, we do expect that demand will continue to outpace the supply, driven by the mega trend. So in the near term, we have not seen any sign of inflection point yet, as I said earlier. And so we don't see that any signal that indicates the current situation will change. So yes, we do have some visibility, and we haven't seen any signs of change in the situation and giving the mega trend of some of the applications from 5G to EV, IoT. We think this demand is going to stay here.

但同樣，這是一個動態的市場動態。所以我們還要繼續跟蹤市場。鑑於目前的觀察結果，我們確實預計，在大趨勢的推動下，需求將繼續超過供應。因此，正如我之前所說，短期內我們還沒有看到任何拐點的跡象。因此，我們沒有看到任何表明當前情況將會改變的訊號。所以，是的，我們確實有一些可見性，而且我們還沒有看到情況發生任何變化的跡象，也沒有看到從 5G 到電動車、物聯網的一些應用的大趨勢。我們認為這種需求將持續存在。

Okay. Understood. Maybe for Chitung, do you have an estimate for 2021 for this year about operating expenses and D&A?

好的。明白了。也許對於Chitung來說，您對今年2021年的營運費用和D&A有預估嗎？

Operating expenses for this year and next year, it's under control. I think our goal is really to maintain a steady percentage of ratio to overall revenue. And of course, revenue is continuing to grow. So the rate of revenue growth certainly is outpacing the rate of OpEx increase.

今年和明年的營運費用都在控制之中。我認為我們的目標實際上是保持佔總收入的穩定百分比。當然，收入正在持續成長。因此，收入成長率肯定超過了營運支出成長率。

The percentage OpEx not increasing. No, I'm asking because typically, as you mentioned, 22, tape-out and specialties processes and, at the same time, a bit more capacity increase than in the previous years, right? All those things cost a bit of money, I guess?

營運支出百分比沒有增加。不，我問這個問題是因為，正如您所提到的，通常是 22 個流片和專業流程，同時，產能比前幾年有所增加，對嗎？我想所有這些東西都要花一點錢吧？

Yes, definitely. But we all have more resources as well given the stronger performance. So again, we will control the ratio as a percentage of OpEx to revenue instead of the absolute dollar terms.

是的，絕對是。但鑑於性能更強，我們也擁有更多資源。因此，我們再次將這一比率控制為營運支出佔收入的百分比，而不是絕對美元。

Understood. And for D&A, Chitung, any rough number?

明白了。至於D&A、Chitung，有大概的數字嗎？

Same thing. I think the biggest component for expense increase is really the employee-related compensation. Because of the better performance, the bonus improvement to our employee will be higher. But the rest, again, is under well control.

同樣的事情。我認為費用增加的最大組成部分實際上是與員工相關的薪酬。因為績效更好，我們員工的獎金提升也會更高。但其餘的一切都在良好的控制之下。

Next question, Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan.

下一個問題是，Gokul Hariharan，摩根大通。

Congrats on the good results. First question, I just wanted to explore a little bit on the blended pricing. Seems like ASP continues to accelerate roughly 3% in Q1, 5% in Q2 and 6% in Q3. Is there an updated guidance on how much we expect blended ASP to go up this year? I think previously, we talked about high single-digit approaching 10% last quarter.

恭喜取得好成績。第一個問題，我只是想探討一下混合定價。看起來 ASP 在第一季持續成長約 3%，第二季成長 5%，第三季成長 6%。是否有關於我們預計今年混合平均售價上漲多少的最新指引？我想之前我們討論過上個季度接近 10% 的高個位數成長率。

Is that going to be higher? And secondly, on the pricing itself, given that you have visibility into next year and you have a lot of commitments to the end of next year itself, could we talk a little bit about how we think about blended ASP as we go into next year? Is next year also a pretty strong price increase year because of product mix or so less on price adjustments? That's my first question.

那會更高嗎？其次，關於定價本身，考慮到您對明年有預見性，並且您對明年年底有很多承諾，我們能否談談在進入明年時我們如何看待混合 ASP ？由於產品組合或價格調整較少，明年是否也是價格上漲相當強勁的一年？這是我的第一個問題。

Okay? So in 2021, our targeted ASP growth will be around 10% to 13% year-over-year. The pricing also includes our product mix improvement, pricing adjustment. UMC does value long-term partnership over near-term cyclical patches. So therefore, our current ASP mainly reflects the value of our position right now.

好的？因此，到 2021 年，我們的目標 ASP 年比成長將在 10% 至 13% 左右。定價還包括我們的產品結構改進、定價調整。聯華電子確實重視長期合作關係，而不是近期的周期性補丁。因此，我們目前的平均售價主要反映了我們目前的部位價值。

In terms -- beyond 2021, I kind of touched that earlier, the pricing of the structural demand, we believe, is here to stay. Our customers does recognize that. So we expect the strength of structural demand momentum will sustain beyond Q4 2021.

就 2021 年後而言，我早些時候曾提到過，我們認為結構性需求的定價將持續下去。我們的客戶確實認識到這一點。因此，我們預計結構性需求動能的強勁將持續到 2021 年第四季之後。

Got it. Just 1 more question on the CapEx side. I think when we talk about the TWD 2.3 billion CapEx this year, how much of our Fab 12A P6 expansion does it cover? Given that we are also looking for around 6% capacity addition next year, do we expect CapEx to stay around these levels as we look into next year as well?

知道了。關於資本支出方面還有 1 個問題。我想當我們談論今年23億新台幣的資本支出時，它涵蓋了我們Fab 12A P6擴建的多少？鑑於我們也希望明年產能增加 6% 左右，那麼在我們展望明年時，我們是否預期資本支出也能維持在這些水準附近？

About the -- we announced the P6 program will be somewhere in the TWD [3.7] billion CapEx and the estimated rent schedule will be sometime in the second quarter of '23. So most of those will probably happen within the 2022. There is a very minimum portion of that is within the 2021 number. So I think that provide will that -- we will provide that guidance by end of this year for 2022.

關於 - 我們宣布 P6 計劃的資本支出將達到新台幣 [3.7] 億，預計租金計劃將在 2023 年第二季度的某個時間進行。因此，其中大部分可能會在 2022 年內發生。因此，我認為我們將在今年年底之前為 2022 年提供該指導。

Understood. Given -- maybe 1 more question. Given that we are seeing a lot of tightness in -- especially in 8-inch and as you mentioned, pacing on ROI challenge in terms of capacity expansion also. Could we talk a little bit about how quickly or how keen are customers to migrate some of their 8-inch products to more mature 12-inch technologies? And also given everything is tied, how feasible is it for them to do that over the next, let's say, 6 to 12 months?

明白了。考慮到——也許還有 1 個問題。鑑於我們看到了很多緊缺的情況——尤其是 8 英寸，正如您所提到的，在產能擴張方面也面臨投資回報率挑戰。我們能否談談客戶將其部分 8 吋產品遷移到更成熟的 12 吋技術的速度和熱情？而且考慮到一切都是捆綁在一起的，他們在接下來的 6 到 12 個月內這樣做的可行性有多大？

Well, just like you mentioned, the -- all nodes are tight across some 8-inch to 12-inch. So the migration -- if the migration -- the purpose of migration is to add this to additional capacity in 12-inch that will be very challenging. The natural pace of the migration will continue, I think, on different applications. Those activity is ongoing. But for capacity reasons, I think, this is going to be rather challenging at this time because all nodes are very, very tight right now.

嗯，就像您提到的那樣，所有節點在 8 英寸到 12 英寸之間都很緊密。因此，遷移——如果遷移的話——遷移的目的是將其添加到 12 英寸的額外容量中，這將是非常具有挑戰性的。我認為，在不同的應用程式上，遷移的自然步伐將繼續下去。這些活動正在進行中。但出於容量原因，我認為此時這將相當具有挑戰性，因為所有節點現在都非常非常緊張。

Understood. Just last one. When you talk about the 6% capacity increase next year, is that also largely in 28 and 22? Or are you thinking a little bit more on 40, 55, et cetera, also?

明白了。就最後一張。當你談到明年6%的產能成長時，這主要是在28年和22年嗎？或者您還對 40、55 等問題有更多的考慮？

The breakdown of the 22 mainly is still led by more than 20% year-over-year growth in our 28 nanometers, okay? There will be some increase in the 8-inch advanced node, which means below 0.18 through some of the upgrades. So this is probably a combination of those, are the main nodes.

22奈米的細分主要還是我們28奈米年成長超過20%領先好嗎？ 8吋高級節點會有一些提升，這意味著透過一些升級，低於0.18。所以這可能是這些的組合，是主要節點。

Next question, Bruce, Goldman Sachs.

下一個問題，布魯斯，高盛。

Congrats on the group results, and I'm actually very impressed about your ESG improvement, especially more than half of the Board of Directors are independent directors, which is important for the long-term shareholders. So I noticed that for the last 2 quarters news announcement, you addressed a lot of -- you addressed the automotive. Can you tell us what is the revenue exposure to automotive right now? And what's your target in 2 to 3 years? What are the key applications and the process node for the automotive customer? Do they carry higher or lower than corporate average margins?

恭喜集團業績，其實我對你們ESG的改善印象深刻，特別是董事會一半以上都是獨立董事，這對長期股東來說很重要。所以我注意到，在過去兩個季度的新聞公告中，您談到了很多——您談到了汽車。您能告訴我們目前汽車產業的收入狀況是多少嗎？您2到3年內的目標是什麼？汽車客戶的關鍵應用和製程節點有哪些？它們的利潤率是高於還是低於企業平均？

Our revenue contribution from automotive is very, very small. They're still below 10% mark. And there are the demand recovery issue from end of 2020 on automotive. So we are putting some resource to support that and ability to support that. And from year-over-year standpoint, we increased the absolute number probably by close to 20% in the auto segment.

汽車產業對我們的收入貢獻非常非常小。他們仍然低於 10%。從2020年底開始，汽車產業還存在需求復甦的問題。因此，我們正在投入一些資源和能力來支持這一點。從同比的角度來看，我們在汽車領域的絕對數量可能增加了近 20%。

So we are putting some priority and resource to support that urgent need. So as far as the customers margin goes, we don't comment on specific customer or segments margin and whether on a corporate level. So I think in general, they are reasonable -- in a reasonable ASP level.

因此，我們正在優先考慮並提供資源來支持這項迫切需求。因此，就客戶利潤而言，我們不會對特定客戶或細分市場的利潤以及是否在公司層級發表評論。所以我認為總的來說，它們是合理的——在合理的 ASP 水平上。

Okay. So can I ask in a different way that can we expect automotive revenue to be more than 10% in a year or 2? And what are the key applications within that auto segment in your -- for your customers?

好的。那我可以換個方式問一下，我們可以預期汽車收入在一兩年內會超過 10% 嗎？對於您的客戶來說，汽車領域的關鍵應用是什麼？

I think from the application standpoint, we are putting more resource to the automotive space. So we are expecting the automotive space will grow. So -- and I don't have a number to quote it here. And we can provide that on an ongoing basis.

我認為從應用的角度來看，我們正在向汽車領域投入更多資源。因此，我們預計汽車領域將會成長。所以——我沒有可以在這裡引用的數字。我們可以持續提供此服務。

But just to add on that, we mentioned EV is an important driver for our silicon content going forward. So we would like to take a broader view that auto industry should eventually include the EV as a driver as well. So that percentage certainly is likely to continue to increase.

但補充一點，我們提到電動車是我們未來矽含量的重要驅動力。因此，我們希望採取更廣泛的觀點，即汽車產業最終也應該將電動車納入其中。因此，這一比例肯定會繼續增加。

Okay. So next one. I always like to ask your R&D expenses. I mean if you look at your R&D expenses in the first half, it's already like 6.5%, which is down from like 8% to 9% in the last couple of quarters. So basically, what is the long-term target right now? I mean (inaudible) R&D expense is 5.5% of the sales. Is that a reasonable target for your R&D expenses?

好的。那麼下一篇。我總是喜歡問你們的研發費用。我的意思是，如果你看看上半年的研發費用，你會發現它已經是 6.5% 了，比過去幾個季度的 8% 到 9% 下降了。那麼基本上，現在的長期目標是什麼？我的意思是（聽不清楚）研發費用佔銷售額的 5.5%。這是你們研發費用的合理目標嗎？

We think the current R&D expenses is about right. I think, certainly, we want to allocate more resources to our R&D effort in order to differentiate ourselves, especially on the specialty technology and also the future technology related to 5G and EV. And again, the absolute dollars will continue to grow. But certainly, the percentage of revenue will be well controlled.

我們認為目前的研發費用是適當的。我認為，當然，我們希望為研發工作分配更多資源，以使自己脫穎而出，特別是在專業技術以及與 5G 和電動車相關的未來技術方面。同樣，絕對美元將繼續增長。但可以肯定的是，收入的比例會得到很好的控制。

I see. Okay. Lastly, for the P6 profitability, I remember last time when management was talking about, which is like roughly a 30-plus percent gross margin for P6. But if we fast forward to 2022 and 2023, this gross margin will be lower than the corporate average in a meaningful way. So that sounds right?

我懂了。好的。最後，對於P6的獲利能力，我記得上次管理層談論時，P6的毛利率大約是30%以上。但如果我們快轉到 2022 年和 2023 年，這一毛利率將明顯低於企業平均值。聽起來不錯嗎？

Well, we expect that P6 will have a better cash margin, means higher EBITDA margin than the 12-inch corporate average. And we adopted P6 because we believe this is a win-win collaboration model that not only secured long-term capacity for customer, the predetermined pricing will also enable UMC to grow organically and to meet our long-term profitability.

嗯，我們預計 P6 將擁有更好的現金利潤率，這意味著 EBITDA 利潤率高於 12 吋企業平均。我們之所以採用P6，是因為我們相信這是雙贏的合作模式，不僅可以為客戶確保長期產能，而且預定的定價也將使聯華電子能夠有機增長並滿足我們的長期盈利能力。

Well, given the -- our corporate average gross margins on rise, the initial P6 gross margin will be in catch-up mode, like you said. However, over time, the P6 will -- gross margin will eventually enhance our corporate average.

嗯，考慮到我們公司的平均毛利率正在上升，最初的 P6 毛利率將處於追趕模式，就像你說的那樣。然而，隨著時間的推移，P6 的毛利率最終將提高我們的企業平均值。

I see. Understand. Your corporate average gross margin improvement is much faster than we think, so that's why it creates some discrepancy, though. Okay.

我懂了。理解。你們公司的平均毛利率改善比我們想像的要快得多，所以這就是它造成一些差異的原因。好的。

Next question is from Nicholas (inaudible), UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀集團的尼可拉斯（聽不清楚）。

2 quick questions. First, going back to LTAs. Is there a way you could quantify perhaps for us how much of the expected capacity for P6, which I think is 27,000, 28,000 wafers per month will eventually be covered by LTAs? And secondly, going back to specialty processes. Could you maybe give us more color in -- as to which ones you see better traction of customers right now between low power or embedded memory, MCUs, high voltage, CIS, et cetera?

2 個快速問題。首先，回到長期協議。有沒有一種方法可以為我們量化 P6 的預期產能（我認為每月 27,000、28,000 片晶圓）最終將由長期協議涵蓋？其次，回到專業流程。您能否給我們更多的資訊——您認為目前在低功耗或嵌入式記憶體、MCU、高電壓、CIS 等方面，哪些技術更能吸引客戶？

The application strength from the overall global demand perspective and within the application, the catalyst is really more of a 5G transformation. And of course, we mentioned about EV and as well as the digital transformation on the IoT devices. And for the 5G transformation associated with the high-voltage device has probably the strongest momentum. That includes OLED driver. And the 5G also have ISP, WiFI6, RF Switch. So those will be probably the -- has the strongest momentum at this point due to the 5G mega trend, and followed by the MCU and the power management.

應用實力從全球整體需求角度和應用內部來看，催化劑更多是5G轉型。當然，我們提到了電動車以及物聯網設備的數位轉型。對於與高壓裝置相關的 5G 轉型來說，其動力可能最為強勁。其中包括 OLED 驅動器。而且5G還有ISP、WiFI6、RF Switch。因此，由於 5G 大趨勢，這些可能是目前勢頭最強勁的，其次是 MCU 和電源管理。

Great. And how about the LTA question for P6, please?

偉大的。 P6 的 LTA 問題怎麼樣？

For P6?

對於P6？

Can you repeat your question?

你能重複一下你的問題嗎？

Sure. So when you talked about customer signing LTAs for P6, approximately when you look ahead and when you will reach 27,000, 28,000 wafers per month in P6 capacity? How much about do you think is likely to be covered by LTAs?

當然。那麼，當您談到客戶簽署 P6 的長期協議時，大約什麼時候您的 P6 產能將達到每月 27,000、28,000 片晶圓？您認為長期協議可能涵蓋多少內容？

The OP6 program is covered by the contract, yes.

OP6 程序包含在合約中，是的。

And next question, (inaudible), UBS.

下一個問題（聽不清楚），瑞銀。

I would just like to ask the management to give us a -- maybe a long-term gross margin target. It is just because the recent quarters, your gross margin has been improving quite fast in a very rapid pace and perhaps give us a guideline of a long-term target, this margin improvement?

我只想請管理階層給我們一個——也許是一個長期毛利率目標。只是因為最近幾季，你們的毛利率一直在以非常快的速度改善，也許給我們一個長期目標的指導，這個利潤率的改善？

We -- I kind of touched that question through ASP trend, but the question always came back to the gross margin. Our gross -- our margin outlook is mainly driven by all those factors I mentioned, from production, efficiency, ASP and product mix optimization, cost reduction and so on and so forth.

我們——我透過平均售價趨勢觸及了這個問題，但問題總是回到毛利率。我們的毛利率前景主要由我提到的所有這些因素驅動，包括生產、效率、平均售價和產品組合優化、成本降低等等。

So we believe those will give us this benefit to strengthening our structural gross margin. So we do expect this gross margin probably continue to improve, I would say. But I'm not -- I don't think we are ready here to giving any gross margin guidance or any gross margin, the outlook for the -- for our target, yes.

因此，我們相信這些將為我們帶來增強結構性毛利率的好處。因此，我想說，我們確實預計毛利率可能會繼續改善。但我不認為我們已經準備好為我們的目標提供任何毛利率指引或任何毛利率前景。

So in a way we should view that the possible upside could still be there? Or the recent quarters margin is not sustainable?

因此，在某種程度上，我們應該認為可能的上行空間仍然存在？或者最近幾季的利潤率不可持續？

We certainly believe the -- all the structure demand, all the existing environment is here to stay. So I don't think there's -- in the near term, we haven't seen any reflection point that this will change in a different direction. I think from the -- direction is we're still marching to improve our gross margin, yes.

我們當然相信──所有的結構需求、所有既有的環境都會保留下來。所以我認為在短期內，我們還沒有看到任何反映這種情況會朝不同方向改變的跡象。我認為，從方向來看，我們仍在努力提高毛利率，是的。

Got it. And then also a follow-up. How do you run utilization rate at more than 100%?

知道了。然後還有後續。利用率如何維持在100%以上？

Well, it's actually 100%. Just 100% plus is meaning it's really full. So it is not, yes.

嗯，實際上是100%。只要 100%+ 就代表它真的已經滿了。所以事實並非如此，是的。

Ladies and gentleman, we're taking the last one. And the last question is from Randy Abrams, Crédit Suisse.

女士們先生們，我們要拿最後一張。最後一個問題來自瑞士信貸銀行的蘭迪·艾布拉姆斯。

Two final questions. Depreciation, Chitung, could you give an update the trend for the next 1 to 2 years? Now on the new CapEx plan, how we should -- would factor that in?

最後兩個問題。貶值，Chitung，您能否介紹一下未來 1 到 2 年的最新趨勢？現在，在新的資本支出計劃中，我們應該如何考慮這一點？

I think for this year and next year, we are talking about 0 to 5 -- below -- around 5% or less decline for our overall depreciation expenses. And for 2023, it really depends on the equipment we brought online. And right now, the lead time is actually quite long.

我認為今年和明年，我們的整體折舊費用將下降 0 到 5%（低於 5%）或更少。對於 2023 年，這實際上取決於我們上線的設備。而現在，交貨時間其實相當長。

So it's a little bit difficult to predict the depreciation expenses for 2023. However, again, we will control it through a percentage of revenue benchmarks. And percentage-wise, we hope it will be a steady to decline rate. But the absolute dollar term depends on the new capacity come on stream.

所以預測2023年的折舊費用有點困難。從百分比來看，我們希望下降率會穩定。但絕對美元期限取決於新產能的投產。

Okay. And the other one I wanted to ask, the other income bumped back up to TWD 1.6 billion. Was there a factor for that lift? And then looking forward, does that -- is there a certain period that continues? Is that still tied to the Xiamen? And how would that continue out into the future?

好的。我想問的另一個問題是，其他收入激增至新台幣16億。這種提升有什麼因素嗎？然後展望未來，是否存在持續一段特定時期？還跟廈門有聯繫嗎？未來這種情況將如何持續？

Just once a year, there's extra subsidies related to our syndicated loans. And I think that will be the last time for this second quarter. Going forward, I think around TWD 10 billion per quarter will be a norm for each quarter, at least, for a few years.

每年只有一次，我們的銀團貸款有額外的補助。我認為這將是第二季的最後一次。展望未來，我認為每季 100 億新台幣左右將成為每季的常態，至少在幾年內是如此。

Okay. I'm sorry, say that again. It was...

好的。對不起，你再說一次。這是...

TWD 1 billion per quarter.

每季 10 億新台幣。

TWD 1 billion per quarter.

每季 10 億新台幣。

Yes. Per quarter, TWD 1 billion.

是的。每季10億新台幣。

Thank you, and we thank you for all your questions. That concludes today's Q&A session. I'll turn things over to UMC Head of IR for closing remarks.

謝謝您，我們感謝您提出的所有問題。今天的問答環節到此結束。我會將事情轉交給 UMC IR 主管進行總結發言。

Thank you for attending this conference today. We appreciate your questions. As always, if you have any additional follow-up questions, please feel free to contact UMC at ir@umc.com. Have a good day. Thank you.

感謝您參加今天的這次會議。我們感謝您的提問。與往常一樣，如果您有任何其他後續問題，請隨時透過 ir@umc.com 聯絡 UMC。祝你有美好的一天。謝謝。

Thank you. And ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our conference for second quarter 2021. Thank you for your participation in UMC's conference. There will be a webcast replay within an hour. Please visit www.umc.com under the Investors Events section. You may now disconnect. Goodbye.

謝謝。女士們、先生們，2021 年第二季的會議到此結束。一小時內將進行網路廣播重播。請造訪 www.umc.com 的「投資者活動」部分。您現在可以斷開連線。再見。