聯華電子 (UMC) 2021 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Welcome, everyone, to UMC's 2021 Fourth Quarter Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions)

歡迎大家參加聯華電子 2021 年第四季財報電話會議。 （操作員說明）

And for your information, this conference call is now being broadcasted live over the Internet. Webcast replay will be available within 2 hours after the conference is finished. Please visit our website, www.umc.com, under the Investor Relations, Investors/Events section.

供您參考，本次電話會議現透過網路進行現場直播。會議結束後2小時內可進行網路直播重播。請造訪我們的網站 www.umc.com，位於「投資者關係」、「投資者/活動」部分。

Now I would like to introduce Mr. Michael Lin, Head of Investor Relations at UMC. And Mr. Lin, please begin.

現在我想介紹一下聯華電子投資人關係主管Michael Lin先生。林先生，請開始。

Thank you and welcome to the UMC's conference call for the fourth quarter of 2021. I am joined by Mr. Jason Wang, the President of UMC; and Mr. Qi Dong Liu, the CFO of UMC.

感謝並歡迎參加聯電 2021 年第四季電話會議。以及聯電財務長劉啟東先生。

In a moment, we will hear our CFO present the fourth quarter financial results, followed by our President's key message to address UMC's focus and the first quarter 2022 guidance. Once our President and the CFO complete their remarks, there will be a Q&A session. UMC's quarterly financial reports are available at our website at www.umc.com under the Investors/Financials section.

稍後，我們將聽到我們的財務長介紹第四季度的財務業績，然後是我們的總裁關於解決 UMC 重點和 2022 年第一季指導的關鍵訊息。一旦我們的總裁和財務長完成發言，就會有問答環節。 UMC 的季度財務報告可在我們的網站 www.umc.com 的「投資者/財務」部分取得。

During this conference, we may make forward-looking statements based on management's current expectations and beliefs. These forward-looking statements are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially, including the risks that may be beyond the company's control. For these risks, please refer to UMC's filings with the SEC in the U.S. and the ROC security authorities.

在這次會議期間，我們可能會根據管理層目前的期望和信念做出前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述受到許多風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致實際結果出現重大差異，包括可能超出公司控制範圍的風險。對於這些風險，請參閱聯華電子向美國 SEC 和中華民國安全機構提交的文件。

Now I would like to introduce UMC's CFO, Mr. Qi Dong Liu, to discuss UMC's fourth quarter 2021 financial result.

現在我想介紹聯電財務長劉啟東先生，討論聯華電子2021年第四季的財務表現。

Thank you, Michael. I.. Would like to go through the 4Q '21 investor conference presentation material, which can be downloaded from our website.

謝謝你，麥可。 I.. 想瀏覽 21 年第 4 季投資者會議簡報資料，該資料可以從我們的網站下載。

Starting on Page 3, the fourth quarter of 2021. Consolidated revenue was TWD 59.1 billion, with a gross margin at 39.1%. The net income attributable to the stockholder of the parent was TWD 15.95 billion and earnings per ordinary shares were TWD 1.3. Capacity utilization rate remained at 100%-plus.

從第3頁開始，2021年第四季。歸屬母公司股東淨利為新台幣159.5億元，每股普通股收益為新台幣1.3元。產能利用率維持在100%以上。

Please turn to Page 4 on this Q4 comprehensive income statement. Operating revenue grew sequentially 5.7% to TWD 59.1 billion. Gross margin, as we reported, at 39.1% improved 12.5% to TWD 23.1 billion. We controlled the operating expenses, and the percentage of the revenue declined a little bit to 11.5% to TWD 6.82 billion. With a nonoperating income of TWD 558 million, our net income attributable to shareholders of the parent was 50 -- TWD 15.949 billion or an EPS of TWD 1.3 in Q4.

請翻至第四季綜合損益表第4頁。營業收入季增 5.7%，達到 591 億新台幣。正如我們所報導的，毛利率為 39.1%，提高了 12.5%，達到 231 億新台幣。我們控制了營業費用，營收佔比小幅下降至11.5%至新台幣68.2億元。第四季營業外收入5.58億新台幣，歸屬於母公司股東的淨利為50-159.49億新台幣，每股收益1.3新台幣。

For the whole year, on the Page 5, 2021 revenue grew by 20.5% year-over-year in NT dollar terms to TWD 213 billion. In U.S. dollar terms, the growth rate was higher, around 26%, 27%, given the stronger NT dollar appreciation against U.S. dollars. Gross profit margin was 33.8% or TWD 72 billion in the year of 2021. And the overall net nonoperating income is a little bit over TWD 10 billion, grew by 70% year-over-year mainly due to the stronger stock market performance and most of the financial asset we hold are evaluated according to the stock market performance. Income tax expenses also grew significantly to TWD 6.7 billion mainly due to a lower base in 2020 and also a stronger profitability in 2021. So for the full year, the EPS is TWD 4.57, grow by 91.1% in net income terms.

全年來看，2021年第5頁營收以新台幣計算，年增20.5%，達到2,130億新台幣。以美元計算，由於新台幣兌美元升值強勁，成長率較高，約26%、27%。 2021 年毛利率為 33.8%，即 720 億新台幣。表現進行評估的。所得稅費用也大幅增長至新台幣 67 億，主要是由於 2020 年基數較低，以及 2021 年盈利能力更強。

So on Page 6, cash continued to pay up to TWD 132.6 billion by the end of 2021, and total equity also grow to TWD 281.2 billion by the end of 2021.

因此在第六頁，到2021年底，現金繼續支付高達1326億新台幣，總股本也到2021年底增長到2812億新台幣。

Page 7. The ASP trend continue to inch up. In Q4 of last year, we saw EPS -- ASP grow by more than 3%.

第 7 頁。去年第四季度，我們看到 EPS-ASP 成長了 3% 以上。

In terms of revenue breakdown, for Page 8, Asia still remain our largest portion of earning -- revenue contribution with 66% in Q4 and North America is 21%. And for the full year on Page 9, the ratio didn't change much compared to the quarterly numbers.

就營收細分而言，對於 Page 8 來說，亞洲仍然是我們營收的最大部分——第四季營收貢獻為 66%，北美為 21%。而在第 9 頁的全年數據中，此比率與季度數據相比變化不大。

So for Page 10, fourth quarter identical that IDM contribute around 14% of the total revenue. And for the full year, we see a 3% -- percentage point increase for IDM revenue to 15% in 2021 versus 12% in 2020.

因此，對於第 10 頁，第四季度 IDM 貢獻了約 14% 的總收入。就全年而言，我們預計 IDM 收入將成長 3%，到 2021 年將成長至 15%，而 2020 年將成長 12%。

So on Page 12, communication also remain around 46% of the pie. And for the full year, on Page 13, we see computer segment grow by 3 percentage point to 17%, and consumer also grow 3 percentage point to 27% compared to the year of 2020.

因此，在第 12 頁，溝通也保持在 46% 左右。就全年而言，在第 13 頁，我們看到與 2020 年相比，電腦細分市場成長了 3 個百分點，達到 17%，消費者也成長了 3 個百分點，達到 27%。

And for Q4 of '21 by technology breakdown on Page 14, for 22/28-nanometer, that account for about 20% of our total revenue, with 38% of the revenue coming from 40-nano and below in Q4. And for the full year, on Page 15, we see a pretty meaningful increase in 22/28 revenue from 14% in the previous year to 20% in 2021, which also helped our blended ASP.

對於 21 年第 4 季的技術細分（第 14 頁），對於 22/28 奈米，約占我們總收入的 20%，其中 38% 的收入來自第四季度的 40 奈米及以下技術。對於全年，在第 15 頁，我們看到 22/28 收入大幅成長，從上一年的 14% 增加到 2021 年的 20%，這也有助於我們的混合 ASP。

On Page 16, we continued to see some mild capacity expansion, although Q1, there will be some maintenance and new maintenance. So most of the increase is scattered among different fabs, which shows in this table on Page 16.

在第16頁，我們繼續看到一些溫和的產能擴張，儘管第一季將會有一些維護和新的維護。因此，大部分成長分散在不同的晶圓廠中，如第 16 頁的表所示。

For Page 17, so far, our -- currently, our 2022 CapEx is budget around $3 billion. And for year 2021, the actual spending was about USD 1.8 billion.

對於第 17 頁，到目前為止，我們的 2022 年資本支出預算約為 30 億美元。 2021年，實際支出約為18億美元。

And the above is a summary of UMC's result for Q4 2021. More details are available in the report, which has been posted on our website.

以上是聯華電子 2021 年第四季業績的摘要。

I will now turn the call over to President of UMC, Mr. Jason Wang.

我現在將電話轉給聯電總裁王傑森先生。

Thank you, Qi Dong. Good evening, everyone. Here, I would like to update the fourth quarter operating result of UMC.

謝謝你，啟東。大家晚上好。在此，我想更新聯電第四季的經營業績。

In the fourth quarter, strong demand continued to drive full loading across our fabs, while overall wafer shipments grew 1.7% quarter-over-quarter to 2.55 million 8-inch equivalents. For the full year, revenue in 2021 rose by more than 20% year-over-year and operating income reached a record high driven by a surge in our 28-nanometer business. The 75% year-over-year revenue increase from 28-nanometer technologies strengthened our overall wafer ASP and reflects the robust chip demand related to 5G, AIoT and automotive megatrends. It also substantially contributed to the improvement in the company's financial structure. Our healthy 28-nanometer product pipeline will further diversify our product portfolio and customer base and enable UMC to capture additional market share.

第四季度，強勁的需求持續推動晶圓廠滿載運轉，整體晶圓出貨量較上季成長 1.7%，達到 255 萬片 8 吋當量。全年來看，2021年營收年增超過20%，營業收入在28奈米業務激增的帶動下創下歷史新高。 28 奈米技術帶來的營收年增 75%，增強了我們的整體晶圓平均售價，反映了與 5G、AIoT 和汽車大趨勢相關的強勁晶片需求。這也為公司財務結構的改善做出了重大貢獻。我們健康的 28 奈米產品線將進一步豐富我們的產品組合和客戶群，並使聯電能夠獲得更多的市場份額。

Looking ahead into Q1 2022, we anticipate the demand across all nodes in UMC's addressable market will continue to outpace supply. Our growth in the long term is supported by industry's megatrends, which will be catapulted by structural changes occurring in the industry. We will continue to deepen cooperation with customers with our differentiated specialty technologies, manufacturing excellence and capacity expansion closely linked to the demand of our partners. At the same time, we will keep pushing for cost reduction and meticulously manage our CapEx in order to deliver sustainable and healthy return for our shareholders.

展望 2022 年第一季度，我們預期聯華電子潛在市場中所有節點的需求將持續超過供應。我們的長期成長受到行業大趨勢的支持，而產業發生的結構性變化將推動這一趨勢的發展。我們將繼續以差異化的專業技術、卓越的製造以及緊扣合作夥伴需求的產能擴張，深化與客戶的合作。同時，我們將持續推動降低成本，精心管理資本支出，為股東帶來永續、健康的回報。

Next, I would like to take a few minutes to share our view on the industry outlook and where we see UMC's position in the industry going forward.

接下來，我想花幾分鐘時間分享我們對產業前景的看法以及我們對聯華電子未來在產業中的地位的看法。

UMC has enjoyed a banner year in 2021. Over the past 3 years, the company has performed and achieved our business goals, thanks to the positive market dynamics and strong partnerships we have developed with our customers. We believe the current semiconductor market megatrends, namely the continuous penetration of 5G phones, the acceleration of EV adoption and the fast pollination of IoT devices, will continue to drive higher demand for silicon content. That, in turn, will lead to a growing demand for foundry capacity and technology not only at the bleeding-edge nodes but also for UMC focused markets in the foreseeable future.

聯華電子在 2021 年度過了輝煌的一年。我們認為，當前半導體市場的大趨勢，即5G手機的持續滲透、電動車的加速採用以及物聯網設備的快速授粉，將繼續推動對矽含量的更高需求。反過來，這將導致對代工能力和技術的需求不斷增長，不僅是在尖端節點，而且在可預見的未來，對於以聯華電子為重點的市場也是如此。

We have been working closely with our customers, aligning our technology solution to capture those megatrend-driven opportunities. We are well prepared ahead of competition across many platforms. The demand-supply imbalance we have experienced over the past 2 years may find some relief as the new capacity will come online. Yet, it has made clear the need for structural and dramatic transformation in the foundry value chain towards closer cooperation and mutual risk mitigation.

我們一直與客戶密切合作，調整我們的技術解決方案以抓住這些大趨勢驅動的機會。我們在跨多個平台的競爭中做好了充分的準備。隨著新產能的投產，我們過去兩年經歷的供需失衡可能會得到一些緩解。然而，它明確表明代工價值鏈需要進行結構性和重大轉變，以實現更密切的合作和共同降低風險。

Many of our customers recognize the importance of the closer collaboration and have responded by participating in our accelerated capacity expansion partnerships and reach a multiyears long-term supply agreement with us. The LTA provides a long-term capacity assurance to our partners and loading protection to UMC in return. In addition, we are also working with end system companies and automakers to enhance visibility and transparency in the supply chain with the aim of addressing uneven supply in the industry and long-term undersupply challenges.

我們的許多客戶認識到更密切合作的重要性，並透過參與我們加速產能擴張的合作夥伴關係並與我們達成多年長期供應協議來回應。 LTA 為我們的合作夥伴提供長期產能保證，並為聯華電子提供負載保護作為回報。此外，我們還與終端系統公司和汽車製造商合作，提高供應鏈的可視性和透明度，旨在解決產業供應不均和長期供應不足的挑戰。

LTAs are more than a protection mechanism for UMC. They are endorsement from our customers and points to UMC's strengthened position among our foundry peers. In the past few years, we have also significantly enhanced the company's structural profitability, giving us the necessary resilience to weather through the market fluctuations. We envision UMC will continue the growth momentum achieved over the past 2 years based on our comprehensive technology offering, foundry position and customer relationships. Our goal is to make UMC a USD 10 billion company by 2024 with ROE over 20%.

LTA 不僅是 UMC 的一種保護機制。這是我們客戶的認可，也顯示聯華電子在代工同業中的地位得到了鞏固。過去幾年，我們也顯著增強了公司的結構性獲利能力，使我們具備抵禦市場波動所需的韌性。我們預計，基於我們全面的技術產品、代工地位和客戶關係，聯華電子將繼續保持過去兩年的成長動能。我們的目標是到 2024 年將聯華電子打造成 100 億美元的公司，ROE 超過 20%。

Last but not least, I would like to highlight our focus on ESG. While ESG is at the forefront of many corporate agendas today, corporate social responsibilities have been UMC's top priority over the decade. Over the years, sustainability has become deeply embedded in our culture and become part of our corporate DNA. In June last year, UMC publicly committed to reach net zero emission by 2050, the first semiconductor foundry to do so. In the 2021 DJSI, we were ranked the first in the semiconductor sector, an important recognition for our ongoing commitment to the environment, our communities and our shareholders. We sincerely invite you to visit our website, where you can download our annual corporate sustainability report.

最後但並非最不重要的一點是，我想強調我們對 ESG 的關注。雖然 ESG 已成為當今許多企業議程的首要議題，但企業社會責任在過去十年中一直是 UMC 的首要任務。多年來，永續發展已深深植根於我們的文化中，並成為我們企業 DNA 的一部分。去年6月，聯華電子公開承諾在2050年實現淨零排放，成為第一家實現此目標的半導體代工廠。在 2021 年 DJSI 中，我們在半導體產業排名第一，這是對我們對環境、社區和股東持續承諾的重要認可。我們誠摯地邀請您造訪我們的網站，您可以在其中下載我們的年度企業永續發展報告。

Now let's move on to the first quarter 2022 guidance.

現在讓我們繼續討論 2022 年第一季的指導。

Our wafer shipments will remain flat. ASP in U.S. dollar will increase by 5%. Gross profit margin will be approximately 40%. Capacity utilization rate will be at 100%. Our 2022 cash-based CapEx will be budgeted at USD 3 billion.

我們的晶圓出貨量將保持穩定。美元平均售價將上漲 5%。毛利率約40%。產能利用率將達100%。我們 2022 年以現金為基礎的資本支出預算為 30 億美元。

That concludes my comments. Thank you all for your attention. And now we are ready for question.

我的評論到此結束。感謝大家的關注。現在我們準備好提問了。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question is coming from Randy Abrams, Crédit Suisse.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自瑞士信貸銀行的蘭迪·艾布拉姆斯。

Okay, yes. Congratulations on the good result. I wanted to ask the first couple of questions on the CapEx. For the $3 billion budget, I want to clarify, is most of the spending tied to the Phase 6 project? Or do you have any other additional projects? And should we view this spending with that Phase 6 as a high base? Or is it your view we may have a follow-on expansion to maintain this higher level of spending?

好吧，是的。恭喜取得好成績。我想問關於資本支出的前幾個問題。對於30億美元的預算，我想澄清一下，大部分支出是否與第六期項目有關？或者您還有其他額外的項目嗎？我們是否應該將第六階段的支出視為高基數？或者您認為我們可能會進行後續擴張以維持較高的支出水準？

Okay. Well, I mean, the $3 billion CapEx, part of that was a $500 million CapEx budget that roll over from our 2021. And the other is -- includes our maximization of the 12A P6 and 12X P1 that we have announced. The 12X P1 capacity will increase 5,000 per month, and the P6 will increase another 5,000 per month. The -- for the 12A P6 capacity after the 5,000 per month, it will reach 32,500 per month for our P6, which is higher than what -- our previous announcement. The -- after we added 5,000 per month capacity at each site, we believe we can actually continue serving the strong customer demand. And we'll continue to enhance our economic scale on each site and maximize the production efficiency. So that's pretty much what that $3 billion include. And overall, based on that, the overall 2022 capacity will increase about 6% year-over-year.

好的。嗯，我的意思是，30 億美元的資本支出，其中一部分是從 2021 年開始滾動的 5 億美元資本支出預算。 12X P1產能每月增加5000個，P6每月再增加5000個。對於 12A P6 的產能，在每月 5,000 個之後，我們的 P6 將達到每月 32,500 個，這比我們之前宣布的要高。在我們每個站點每月增加 5,000 個產能之後，我們相信我們實際上可以繼續滿足強勁的客戶需求。我們將繼續增強每個站點的經濟規模並最大限度地提高生產效率。這幾乎就是 30 億美元所包含的內容。整體而言，以此為基礎，2022年整體產能將年增約6%。

Okay. And for the timing -- to clarify, for the 32,500, when is the timing when that would be available for like wafer shipments?

好的。至於時間安排——澄清一下，對於 32,500 塊晶圓，什麼時候可以提供類似的晶圓發貨？

The 5,000 a month will be commenced in Q2 2024.

每月 5,000 個將於 2024 年第二季開始。

Oh '24? Okay. So that's later. Okay. And for the $10 billion goal, is it the view, with these projects, you have the capacity? Or do you -- like if you think it through, do you have additional space between the China, Singapore, Taiwan to do additional kind of phase? Or do you need to expand further, go to greenfield?

噢，24歲？好的。所以那是後來的事了。好的。對於 100 億美元的目標，您認為透過這些項目您有能力嗎？或者，如果你想清楚，中國、新加坡、台灣之間是否有額外的空間來進行額外的階段？還是你需要進一步擴張，去綠地？

Oh, that's actually a pretty good question. The -- let me answer it this way. Our global expansion strategy will continue. First, we'll -- our global expansion strategy will continue to follow the stringent, ROI-driven criteria we have been follow. And -- but at the same time, we will take us -- into consideration our future market outlook and customer demand. And we -- the -- we, UMC, we have a very diversified regional production site, like you know. And so we do have the flexibility to assess the future expansion site and to meet those customer requirements.

哦，這實際上是一個很好的問題。讓我這樣回答。我們的全球擴張策略將持續下去。首先，我們的全球擴張策略將繼續遵循我們一直遵循的嚴格的、投資報酬率驅動的標準。但同時，我們將考慮我們未來的市場前景和客戶需求。如你所知，我們，我們，聯華電子，我們擁有一個非常多元化的區域生產基地。因此，我們確實可以靈活地評估未來的擴建地點並滿足這些客戶的要求。

The question about the 12X, the China fab, the -- currently, we have fab buildings constructed at both Japan, 12M, and the Xiamen, the 12X. However, both fab sites will still require additional CapEx to build cleanroom before install tools and equipment. And in addition to that, I think we -- UMC has a large to evaluate different expansion option as well beyond the current P5 and P6 in Taiwan. And we will discuss our expansion plan accordingly, but we will evaluate all options right now.

關於 12X、中國晶圓廠的問題——目前，我們在日本 12M 和廈門 12X 都建造了晶圓廠建築。然而，這兩個晶圓廠在安裝工具和設備之前仍需要額外的資本支出來建造無塵室。除此之外，我認為我們——聯華電子還有很多值得評估的不同擴展選項，除了目前台灣的 P5 和 P6 之外。我們將相應地討論我們的擴張計劃，但我們現在將評估所有選項。

One last maybe for Qi Dong on the depreciation for -- if you could give a view this year and initial feedback based on this planned direction for next year.

最後一個可能是奇東關於折舊的問題——如果你能在今年給出一個看法，並根據明年的計劃方向提供初步回饋。

So I think the key is really we want to keep this percentage of revenue under control. So we will continue to do that. And then 2022 depreciation actually will decline year-over-year by approximately 5% or less and followed by a flat to small increase in 2023, which is dependent on the cash-based CapEx this year and also next year, because, currently, equipment delivery time is being prolonged.

所以我認為關鍵是我們確實希望控制這個收入百分比。所以我們將繼續這樣做。然後，2022 年的折舊實際上將同比下降約 5% 或更少，隨後 2023 年將持平或小幅增長，這取決於今年和明年基於現金的資本支出，因為目前，設備交貨時間正在延長。

Okay. And for the delivery, the 20 -- the first 27,500, has that pushed out at all? Or is that second half 2023 for the -- you mentioned the 5,000 would be in 2024. But when would the big capacity be available?

好的。至於交付，那 20 件——前 27,500 件，已經被推遲了嗎？或者是 2023 年下半年——您提到 2024 年將達到 5,000 個。

For both P5 and P6 -- just let me get back to P5 as well. So for the -- the P5 and P6 production ramp schedule is still on track. The P5, the 10,000 per month capacity, will come online by Q2 2022, these upcoming quarters in Q2. The -- for the P6, we have encountered some equipment delivery delays. At the same time, we are working with the suppliers right now, along with the internal engineering efforts. And we will be -- shorten the 2 installation schedules and so on. So right now, we still keep the schedule on track. And we -- the angle is to ensure our capacity commitment to our P6 customers.

對於 P5 和 P6——讓我也回到 P5。因此，P5 和 P6 的生產計劃仍在按計劃進行。 P5 的每月產能為 10,000 個，將於 2022 年第二季（即將到來的第二季）上線。 - 對於 P6，我們遇到了一些設備交付延遲的情況。同時，我們現在正在與供應商合作，以及內部工程工作。我們將縮短 2 個安裝時間表等等。所以現在，我們仍然保持計劃正常進行。我們的角度是確保我們對 P6 客戶的產能承諾。

Okay. And I think...

好的。我認為...

So that is the Q2 2023.

這就是 2023 年第二季。

Okay, Q2. Okay. Yes.

好的，Q2。好的。是的。

Right.

正確的。

And then just one last question. The -- with some of the costs rising on labor, how should we take the view on OpEx now if more increase or -- you mentioned something about continuing on the cost reduction effort. So how would that trend? And also, some of the subsidy, if that would maintain a similar level.

最後一個問題。隨著一些勞動力成本的上升，如果營運支出進一步增加，我們現在應該如何看待營運支出，或者您提到了有關繼續降低成本的努力。那麼這個趨勢會如何呢？此外，還有一些補貼，如果能維持類似的水準的話。

Now for OpEx, as I mentioned, yes, we are seeing the trend for labor cost increase. This is really a function of improved profitability. So our goals still remain the same, we hope. OpEx will grow. As a percentage of revenue, it will continue to be under control, even trend down a little bit.

現在對於營運支出，正如我所提到的，是的，我們看到了勞動成本增加的趨勢。這實際上是獲利能力提高的結果。因此，我們希望我們的目標仍然保持不變。營運支出將會成長。從佔收入的比例來看，它將繼續受到控制，甚至有小幅下降的趨勢。

Okay. Even trend down, meaning in absolute dollars?

好的。甚至趨勢下降，這意味著絕對美元嗎？

No, no. I mean percentage of revenue.

不，不。我的意思是收入的百分比。

Oh, as a percent of revenue. Okay, I understand.

哦，佔收入的百分比。好吧，我明白了。

Next question, Szeho Ng, China Renaissance.

下一個問題，Szeho Ng，華興資本。

Two question from my side. The first one, I just wanted to tap your brain on the FinFET market. Does the company have any plan to go back to the FinFET market or be happy to just stay at the 22 and 28?

我這邊有兩個問題。第一個，我只是想在FinFET市場開動腦筋。該公司是否有計劃重返 FinFET 市場，或樂意只停留在 22 和 28 市場？

Well, I mean, we never abandoned the 14 FinFET. The -- our plan is always keeping the 14 FinFET under the R&D activities. And we have believed at 14 technology, and we are engaging with a number of our customers for the FinFET -- in 14 FinFET.

嗯，我的意思是，我們從未放棄 14 FinFET。我們的計劃是始終將 14 FinFET 納入研發活動。我們相信 14 技術，並且正在與 FinFET 的許多客戶合作——14 FinFET。

We do not have any plan to go beyond 14. And we do see that the -- there will be very high challenge for us to start addressing the FinFET beyond the 14. So we will stop at 14 at this point, yes.

我們沒有任何超越 14 的計劃。 而且我們確實看到，要開始解決 14 之外的 FinFET 問題，我們將面臨非常高的挑戰。

I see. Great. And the other question, given the fact that we are looking at huge progress on gross margin expansion, and for this quarter, we are guiding for something around 40% for gross margin, what would be the steady-state gross margin for the company going forward?

我懂了。偉大的。另一個問題是，考慮到我們正在尋找毛利率擴張方面的巨大進展，並且本季度我們的毛利率指導值為 40% 左右，那麼該公司的穩態毛利率是多少？

Well, first, I mean, I will start out with this. The -- we do see an increase to the CapEx. And -- but at the same time, we will manage and control depreciation through disciplined CapEx approach to maintain the gross margin based on our financial affordability and focus -- and instead then focus on our EBITDA margin, the expansion. We'll invest into the future. So that's the principle that we follow with.

嗯，首先，我的意思是，我將從這個開始。我們確實看到資本支出增加。但同時，我們將透過嚴格的資本支出方法來管理和控制折舊，以根據我們的財務承受能力和重點來維持毛利率，然後專注於我們的 EBITDA 利潤率和擴張。我們將投資未來。這就是我們遵循的原​​則。

So if I may add on to that. Our comprehensive technology portfolio and our leading customer base, coupled with the -- our well-balanced 8-inch and 12-inch diversified offering, and we think we actually are currently having a higher than most of our competitors in terms of EBITDA margin. And the UMC EBITDA margin, we think there are still room for further enhancement due to mix improvement by specialty technology, expansion of 28-nanometer scale and also some cost reduction efforts, also productivity improvement and potential ASP increase.

那我可以補充一下嗎？我們全面的技術組合和領先的客戶群，再加上我們均衡的 8 吋和 12 吋多元化產品，我們認為我們目前的 EBITDA 利潤率實際上高於大多數競爭對手。至於聯電 EBITDA 利潤率，我們認為由於專業技術的組合改進、28 奈米規模的擴大以及一些成本降低措施、生產率的提高和潛在的平均售價增加，仍有進一步提升的空間。

But our company margin, especially gross margin, may vary along with the moving depreciation expenses, which derive from the investment for the future. So again, we will manage our gross margin through disciplined CapEx and balanced with our financial capability and our gross margin, which translate to absolute dollar dividend payout will be in line or higher than UMC's long-term foundry growth.

但我們公司的利潤率，尤其是毛利率，可能會隨著來自未來投資的行動折舊費用而改變。因此，我們將透過嚴格的資本支出來管理我們的毛利率，並與我們的財務能力和毛利率相平衡，這意味著絕對的美元股息支付將與聯華電子的長期代工增長持平或更高。

I see. Okay. Maybe last question from my side, yes. For the net other operating income, is it still fair to assume a quarterly run rate around TWD 1 billion, plus or minus, for this year?

我懂了。好的。也許我的最後一個問題是，是的。對於其他營業淨收入，假設今年的季度運行率為 10 億新台幣（上下）左右是否仍然公平？

No, no. I mean this is very difficult to predict. And again, this is highly correlated to the share price performance of our...

不，不。我的意思是這很難預測。再說一次，這與我們的股價表現高度相關…

Oh, no, no. I need the operating and other net operating income, not the nonoperating. The net other, yes.

哦，不，不。我需要營業收入和其他淨營業收入，而不是非營業收入。淨其他，是的。

Oh, okay. So that's relate -- mostly relate to the subsidy from our Xiamen operation. It still will be 85%, 90% there for 2022.

哦好的。所以這與我們廈門業務的補貼有關。 2022 年仍將是 85%、90%。

Okay. And how long would that last? Would that go into 2023 and beyond?

好的。那會持續多久？這會持續到 2023 年及以後嗎？

It's mostly on a 6-year scheme. So I think they will last into 2023 and maybe decline in 2024.

它主要是一個為期 6 年的計劃。所以我認為它們將持續到 2023 年，並可能在 2024 年下降。

The next question, Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

下一個問題，Bruce Lu，高盛。

I mean a question is, what's your expected foundry growth rate for 2022? TSMC is guiding for 15% to 20%, but your $10 billion revenue guidance suggested like 10% compound growth for the next 2, 3 years. If TSMC is guiding for 15%, 20%, which means that it's either you are losing market share in 2022 or onward or you're expecting like flattish growth in the coming 2 years, so is there something I missed?

我的意思是一個問題是，您預計 2022 年代工增長率是多少？台積電的指導值為 15% 到 20%，但你們的 100 億美元收入指導建議未來 2、3 年複合成長率為 10%。如果台積電的指導值為 15%、20%，這意味著您要么在 2022 年或以後失去市場份額，要么預計未來 2 年增長持平，那麼我是否錯過了什麼？

No. I mean we have a long-term goal to bring the company over $10 billion by 2024. And -- but for 2022, despite a lower contribution in wafer demand associated with the work from home and home learning, we still expect structural demand such as 5G, EV and IoT will remain strong. So we estimate the foundry industry growth in 2022 will be around 20%. At the same time, the UMC is projected to grow in line or higher than the foundry industry for 2022.

不。結構性需求5G、電動車和物聯網等領域將維持強勁。因此我們預計2022年代工業成長率將在20%左右。同時，預計 2022 年聯華電子的成長將與代工產業持平或更高。

I see. Okay. Then you can easily achieve the target by 2023?

我懂了。好的。那麼到2023年你能輕鬆達成目標嗎？

Well, so $10 billion is not really a numerical target. It's really a goal. So we want UMC to become a $10 billion-plus company.

嗯，所以 100 億美元並不是一個真正的數字目標。這確實是一個目標。所以我們希望聯電成為一家價值超過 100 億美元的公司。

Of course, I mean, for me, it's a -- I think it's an easier target for -- even in 2023. So that's why I was completely confused. Okay. .

當然，我的意思是，對我來說，即使是在 2023 年，這也是一個——我認為這是一個更容易的目標。好的。 。

Right, which will (inaudible) -- so, I mean...

是的，這會（聽不清楚）——所以，我的意思是…

So the next question is regarding...

所以下一個問題是關於...

Go ahead. Sorry, go ahead.

前進。抱歉，請繼續。

Okay, sorry about that. So the next question is more about the profitability. Your first quarter ASP expanded by 5%, blended basis, which supposed to be like wafer -- a high wafer price and better product mix. And you -- this depreciation in 2022 expanded only by 5%. So theoretically, you should see more gross margin impact because of this ASP -- higher ASP. So why the gross margin only increased by 1%?

好吧，對此感到抱歉。所以下一個問題更多的是關於獲利能力。你們第一季的平均售價成長了 5%，混合基礎上，這應該像晶圓一樣——高晶圓價格和更好的產品組合。而你——2022 年的貶值僅擴大了 5%。因此，從理論上講，由於平均售價更高，您應該會看到更多的毛利率影響。那為什麼毛利率只增加了1%呢？

It's approximately 40%. And also, for the 2022, as we discussed, there is some structural change in labor costs also associated with our improved capabilities. And for raw material costs, also there will be some kind of structure change with -- in our view, that -- just like the structure change take place in the foundry industry. So for 2022, we anticipate some raw material increase along the rest of the year.

大約是40%。此外，正如我們所討論的，到 2022 年，勞動成本將發生一些結構性變化，這也與我們能力的提高有關。對於原料成本來說，我們認為也會出現某種結構變化，就像鑄造業發生的結構變化一樣。因此，對於 2022 年，我們預計今年剩餘時間原料將會增加。

So you mean the non-depreciation cost increased a lot, which offset the impact -- offset the benefit from the higher wafer price, is that right?

所以你的意思是非折舊成本增加了很多，這抵消了影響——抵消了晶圓價格上漲的好處，對嗎？

Yes. I mean -- yes. Basically, we project labor and raw material costs are increasing. And we believe this is not only just the inflation, right, I mean, because the demand outpaces supply. And we see this happening throughout the supply chain. But the labor cost increase is more structural, yes. .

是的。我的意思是——是的。基本上，我們預期勞動力和原材料成本正在增加。我們相信這不僅僅是通貨膨脹，對吧，我的意思是，因為需求超過了供應。我們看到這種情況在整個供應鏈中發生。但勞動成本的增加更具結構性，是的。 。

I see. I understand. Do you expect to further increase your wafer price to offset the impact because -- if the raw material costs continue to go up for the entire -- throughout the year?

我懂了。我明白。如果原物料成本全年持續上漲，您是否預計會進一步提高晶圓價格以抵銷影響？

Well, I mean, the -- our ASP strategy is not exploiting short-term opportunistic profit, right? I mean so it should reflect our value and market price which is delivered to our customer. We -- at the same time, we want to strengthen our relationship with the customer in the long-term basis and mutually growing with our customer. And to -- for that, our ASP will reflect the market value. And we will collaborate with our customer in coping the rising input costs. And inflation is needed. So we'll continue monitoring that, yes.

嗯，我的意思是，我們的 ASP 策略並沒有利用短期機會主義利潤，對吧？我的意思是，它應該反映我們交付給客戶的價值和市場價格。同時，我們希望加強與客戶的長期關係，並與客戶一起成長。為此，我們的平均售價將反映市場價值。我們將與客戶合作應對不斷上升的投入成本。並且需要通貨膨脹。所以我們將繼續監控這一點，是的。

But structurally, if the raw material cost is increasing, then -- because your value provided to a customer remain unchanged, you should be able to pass the incremental cost to your customers, right?

但從結構上來說，如果原材料成本增加，那麼——因為你為客戶提供的價值保持不變，你應該能夠將增量成本轉嫁給客戶，對嗎？

Yes. At the same time, we want to make sure that the customer can achieve their growth as well. So we're closely working with them on that, yes. .

是的。同時，我們希望確保客戶也能成長。所以我們正在與他們密切合作，是的。 。

The next question, Roland Shu, Citigroup.

下一個問題，Roland Shu，花旗集團。

My first question is for your $500 million CapEx pushed out from last year to this year. You said there was due to the extended equipment lead time. So how about this $3 billion CapEx plan for this year? Will you worry about this extended equipment lead time to continue impact the equipment delivery and also continue impact your CapEx spending this year? .

我的第一個問題是關於你們從去年到今年推出的 5 億美元資本支出。你說這是因為設備交貨時間延長所造成的。那麼今年 30 億美元的資本支出計畫呢？您是否擔心設備交付週期延長會繼續影響設備交付並繼續影響您今年的資本支出？ 。

So the $3 billion is already incorporated in every possible scenario we have -- foresee today. So it is the current condition. .

因此，30 億美元已經包含在我們今天預見的所有可能的場景中。所以這就是目前的狀況。 。

Okay. But your CapEx that is cash based means that you need to see all of the equipment delivered to your fab and then you pay to equipment vendors, then you'll recognize the CapEx, right? .

好的。但基於現金的資本支出意味著您需要查看交付到晶圓廠的所有設備，然後向設備供應商付款，然後您就會認識到資本支出，對嗎？ 。

That's right.

這是正確的。

Yes. So...

是的。所以...

So we had factored in all the scenario we have seen so far, including part of the tool delays, yes.

因此，我們已經考慮了迄今為止所看到的所有情況，包括部分工具延遲，是的。

Yes. So yes, my question is then how confident you are you can receive all of this equipment you already ordered from the equipment vendors. Since there are now these like supply issues, the equipment lead times have been very long. So do you see any risk for you to fail to get most of this equipment this year? .

是的。所以，是的，我的問題是，您對收到已從設備供應商訂購的所有設備有多大信心。由於現在存在諸如供應問題，設備的交貨時間非常長。那麼，您認為今年無法獲得大部分設備是否有風險？ 。

Oh, given the latest update on our supplier, and this will be considered a high confidence. And -- but however, they -- we continue seeing some delivery interruption in the supply chain. So if there is a further delay, then we have to have a way to mitigate that to keep our original commitment to our customer. So right now, I mean, for the $3 billion question, I think that, that is -- already consider order delivery schedules that we have updated on our suppliers.

哦，鑑於我們供應商的最新更新，這將被視為高度可信。然而，我們仍然看到供應鏈出現一些交貨中斷。因此，如果出現進一步的延遲，那麼我們必須找到一種方法來緩解這種情況，以保持我們對客戶的最初承諾。所以現在，我的意思是，對於 30 億美元的問題，我認為，那就是——已經考慮我們在供應商上更新的訂單交付時間表。

Understood. And my second question now is on your -- for your blended ASP in 4Q. So you have about maybe 4% quarter-on-quarter blended ASP increase in 4Q. But I look at your product mix, I did not know -- you only had very -- only have a 1% higher revenue contribution from 28-nanometer. So I -- basically, I assume your blended ASP increase in 4Q was -- mainly come from this like-to-like wafer ASP increase. So how about for the first quarter? Now you guide your blended ASP to up about 5%. So how about the percentage from this mix improvement or the like-to-like improvement?

明白了。我現在的第二個問題是關於第四季的混合 ASP。因此，第四季的綜合平均售價較上季成長約為 4%。但我看看你們的產品組合，我不知道——你們只有非常——只有 28 納米的收入貢獻增加了 1%。所以我——基本上，我假設第四季度的混合平均售價成長——主要來自晶圓平均售價的成長。那麼第一季情況如何呢？現在，您將混合 ASP 提高到 5% 左右。那麼，這種組合改進或同類改進的百分比如何呢？

For the Q1 ASP 5% uptick, they basically reflect mostly pricing adjustment.

第一季平均售價上漲 5%，基本上反映了價格調整。

Oh, it's a pricing adjustment, yes. So the product mix will be pretty much the same as 4Q, right?

哦，是的，這是價格調整。所以產品組合會與 4Q 幾乎相同，對吧？

That's right, yes.

沒錯，是的。

Okay. Then for you -- for this year, 2022, will you consider to further adjust the price like Bruce asked earlier?

好的。那麼對你來說，今年，2022年，你會考慮像Bruce之前問的那樣，進一步調整價格嗎？

I touched that the ASP will reflect our market value and our relevance in the supply chain. And it's our projection right now that there will be a -- the 2022 ASP dynamic will be similar to the 2021 based on the current view in the demand and supply. And our 2021 blended ASP increased by about mid-teens percentage, yes.

我認為平均售價將反映我們的市場價值以及我們在供應鏈中的相關性。我們現在的預測是，根據目前的供需情況，2022 年的平均售價動態將與 2021 年類似。是的，我們 2021 年的混合平均售價成長了大約百分之十左右。

Okay. So you said that 2022, you expect the blended ASP to increase similar as 2021 versus 2020?

好的。所以您說 2022 年，您預計混合平均售價將與 2021 年相比 2020 年增長類似？

Right, right. Yes.

對，對。是的。

The next question, Frank Lee, HSBC.

下一個問題是匯豐銀行的 Frank Lee。

Okay. Just wanted to ask about, I guess, the -- this idea of the semi content growth. I think you've alluded to that previously in this call as well in the past analyst meetings. I just wanted to -- I guess if you guys can give us a bit more color in terms of the semi content growth potentially by node. Are we seeing semi content growth pickup across all nodes in terms of what you see? Or are there any nodes in particular where you see even more semi content growth than we expected?

好的。我想只是想問一下半內容成長的想法。我認為您之前在這次電話會議以及過去的分析師會議中都提到過這一點。我只是想——我想你們能否給我們更多關於節點潛在的半內容增長的信息。正如您所看到的那樣，我們是否看到所有節點的半內容增長都在回升？或者是否有任何特定的節點讓您看到半內容的成長比我們預期的還要多？

Well...

出色地...

Frank, we don't really have the final numbers, but we are confident so-called the UMC addressable market, which is 14 and below, the mature node by many of the analysts, still will show very good growth and may not be as high as the bleeding edge but good enough to let UMC to enjoy the megatrend. So the simple answer is really across the board -- across most of the nodes for UMC focused -- UMC's addressable market.

弗蘭克，我們並沒有真正的最終數字，但我們有信心所謂的 UMC 潛在市場，即 14 及以下，許多分析師認為成熟的節點，仍然會表現出非常好的增長，並且可能不會像雖然處於前沿但足以讓聯電享受大趨勢。因此，簡單的答案實際上是全面的——跨越 UMC 關注的大多數節點——UMC 的潛在市場。

Okay. So I guess if we're looking at semi content across the board, would you expect that the level of semi content growth that we've seen over the last year to continue to be at the same pace? Or do you think it would start to slow down a bit? I mean just generally, expectations of how you see the semi content continuing in the next 1 to 2 years.

好的。因此，我想如果我們全面審視半內容，您是否預計我們去年看到的半內容成長水準將繼續保持相同的速度？或者你認為它會開始放慢一點嗎？我的意思是一般來說，您對半內容在未來 1 到 2 年內如何繼續發展的期望。

Well, I mean, the market intelligence lead us to believe that the industry -- the megatrend will actually continue to drive positive growth. And it will spread on all nodes. We're just not ready to -- at this point to discuss on by-node basis. But the -- overall, we think the growth will continue, and -- because we see a number of area have a significant silicon content increase, from the 5G, real estate increases -- the second real estate increases because of more function -- increase of functionality. As well as automotive, you some of the components actually increased by unit count. So they -- there are many different areas and spread out in the different nodes. And I think that the megatrend is going to drive this industry, continue grow for quite some time, yes.

嗯，我的意思是，市場情報讓我們相信這個行業——大趨勢實際上將繼續推動積極成長。並且會在所有節點上傳播。目前我們還沒準備好按節點進行討論。但總體而言，我們認為成長將會持續，而且，因為我們看到一些領域的矽含量顯著增加，從 5G 開始，房地產增加，第二個房地產增加，因為更多的功能——功能的增加。除了汽車之外，一些組件的單位數量實際上有所增加。所以它們——有很多不同的區域並且分佈在不同的節點上。我認為大趨勢將推動這個行業，在相當長的一段時間內繼續成長，是的。

Okay. And then, sorry, just my last question is just, you touched a bit about the auto market as well. Currently, auto doesn't look like it's more than 10% of your revenue. But the way we should look at autos, should we think about it as a much bigger impact relative to what the revenue occupies of the future capacity going forward? I'm just trying to get a sense of, I guess, the new capacity going forward. How should we think about the auto space as part of the overall influence on the industry capacity? .

好的。然後，抱歉，我的最後一個問題是，您也觸及了一些關於汽車市場的問題。目前，汽車業務佔您收入的比例似乎還沒有超過 10%。但我們看待汽車的方式，是否應該將其視為相對於未來產能中收入所佔比例更大的影響？我想我只是想了解未來的新能力。我們應該如何看待汽車領域作為對產業產能整體影響的一部分？ 。

Well, from the absolute dollar standpoint, they -- they're relative small compared to the mobile space, the smartphone space. But they are important because they have a different characteristic. For instance, the auto component has a long life cycle. So they have a longer longevity. And so the -- so we all put into that as a consideration. So for that -- so for some of those consideration, our auto revenue portion will actually continue to increase. .

嗯，從絕對美元的角度來看，與行動領域、智慧型手機領域相比，它們相對較小。但它們很重要，因為它們具有不同的特徵。例如，汽車零件的生命週期很長。所以他們的壽命更長。因此，我們都將這一點作為考慮因素。因此，出於其中一些考慮，我們的汽車收入部分實際上將繼續增加。 。

And next, we have Sunny Lin, UBS, for questions.

接下來請瑞銀的 Sunny Lin 提問。

Congrats on the very strong performance. My first question is for next couple of years. Clearly, there's constructive demand drivers for turning edge. But several foundries are expanding and China is also accelerating the investment. So I wanted to get your thought on how overall supply-demand dynamics could trend next couple of years.

恭喜您的出色表現。我的第一個問題是未來幾年的問題。顯然，有建設性的需求驅動因素來扭轉局面。但一些代工廠正在擴張，中國也在加速投資。因此，我想了解您對未來幾年整體供需動態趨勢的看法。

We -- earlier, we kind of touched about the demand. So it's -- our market intelligence lead us to believe that the demand will continue to be strong because of those megatrends reason.

早些時候，我們觸及了需求。因此，我們的市場情報使我們相信，由於這些大趨勢的原因，需求將繼續強勁。

On the supply side, based on the announced capacity expansion plan, we do see the oversupply situation at 28-nanometer to happen beyond 2023, not before 2023. But we still also believe the oversupply situation will be mild and show that -- given the 28-nanometer will be a sweet spot for many applications, then expect the demand will continue to migrate to 28-nanometers and that 28-nanometer demand will continue to grow.

在供應方面，根據已公佈的產能擴張計劃，我們確實認為28 奈米的供應過剩情況將在2023 年之後發生，而不是在2023 年之前。 ——考慮到28 奈米將成為許多應用的最佳選擇，然後預計需求將繼續遷移到 28 奈米，並且 28 奈米需求將繼續增長。

And with our strong 28-nanometer product pipeline, we have aligned it with our technology and -- based on the market megatrend and those by the global leading customer with the multiyear LTA commitments. Between the LTA coverage and single source, we have approximately 80% coverage capacity. So we are confident that our 80% -- I mean, our 28-nanometer capacity expansion is well protected. But at the same time, we have a pretty good expectation on the -- no, we have actually a high expectation on 28's growth. But that's give you a bit of a demand and supply overview, yes.

憑藉我們強大的 28 奈米產品線，我們將其與我們的技術相結合，並且基於市場大趨勢以及全球領先客戶的多年 LTA 承諾。在 LTA 覆蓋範圍和單一來源之間，我們的覆蓋能力約為 80%。所以我們有信心我們的 80%——我的意思是，我們的 28 奈米產能擴張得到了很好的保護。但同時，我們對——不，我們實際上對 28 的成長抱有很高的期望。但這給了你一些需求和供應的概覽，是的。

All right. That's very helpful. So the 80% coverage, is that for 28 specifically or for your overall capacity? .

好的。這非常有幫助。那麼 80% 的覆蓋率是專門針對 28 人還是針對您的整體容量？ 。

It's for -- what I mentioned is actually for the 28 nanometers, yes. .

是的，我提到的實際上是 28 奈米。 。

Right. So would you be able to share with us, if we look at your total capacity across 8-and 12-inch, how many of the capacity is now covered by LTAs?

正確的。那麼，您能否與我們分享一下，如果我們查看您的 8 英寸和 12 英寸總產能，現在有多少產能是由 LTA 覆蓋的？

They have a very similar -- I mean, so the UMC, the LTA and the single source business are actually endorsed by our customers' commitment and confidence in our technology. It's all designed into UMC platform. That's when we discussed LTA and single source. And many of them are single-source products with our differentiated technology. The total revenue contribution to now is around USD 18 billion, and they continue to pie up. Many of the product are -- relate to industry megatrends, fulfilled by our specialty technology know-how. And we expect those product will have a longer lifespan. .

他們有一個非常相似的地方——我的意思是，所以UMC、LTA和單一來源業務實際上得到了我們客戶對我們技術的承諾和信心的認可。這一切都設計到UMC平台。那時我們討論了 LTA 和單一來源。其中許多是採用我們差異化技術的單一來源產品。目前總收入貢獻約 180 億美元，並且還在持續增加中。許多產品都與行業大趨勢相關，並透過我們的專業技術知識來實現。我們預計這些產品的使用壽命會更長。 。

Got it. My second question is on your gross margin. So after price adjustment, is there still a margin difference between 8-inch and 12-inch? And do you have a gross margin target for next couple of years? I think you mentioned a target for ROE that's above 20%. So I wonder if you also have a goal for gross margin as well. .

知道了。我的第二個問題是關於你們的毛利率。那麼調價之後，8吋和12吋之間還有利潤差嗎？您有未來幾年的毛利率目標嗎？我想您提到的 ROE 目標是 20% 以上。所以我想知道你們是否也有毛利率目標。 。

So above -- 20%-plus ROE should give you a sense about our gross margin target, which we cannot really give you the numbers. But again, we -- our real focus is EBITDA margin, which will continue to show further improvement.

因此，以上 - 20% 以上的 ROE 應該能讓您了解我們的毛利率目標，但我們無法真正為您提供數字。但我們再次強調，我們真正關注的是 EBITDA 利潤率，它將繼續顯示進一步的改善。

Gross margin can vary along with this depreciation curve. And this year, it will be down slightly. Next year, it will be up slightly but a year after that maybe increase a little bit more. Now our base will also increase after 2 years of compound growth. So we do have a goal for internal purpose. But the key is really to let our shareholder to receive the dividends in line -- in terms of growth rate of the dividend to be in line or better than our foundry growth.

毛利率可能會隨著折舊曲線而改變。而今年，會略有下降。明年，它會略有上升，但一年後可能會增加一點。現在我們的基數經過2年的複合成長也會增加。所以我們確實有一個內部目標。但關鍵是要讓我們的股東收到符合要求的股利——就股息成長率而言，要符合或優於我們代工廠的成長率。

Next question, Charlie Chan, Morgan Stanley.

下一個問題，查理陳，摩根士丹利。

Sure. And again, congratulations for your great results. And I really want to consult you some kind of industry assumption you just shared with us. So you also quote that the foundry industry is going to grow 20% year-on-year. Can you break down the shipment grows versus the ASP increase? Do you think the -- is it similar to your company's trend, meaning the ASP increase account for maybe 15% of growth and shipment increases 5%?

當然。再次恭喜您取得的優異成績。我真的很想向您諮詢您剛剛與我們分享的某種行業假設。所以你也提到鑄造業將年增20%。您能否將出貨量成長與平均售價成長進行比較？您認為這與您公司的趨勢相似嗎，即平均售價成長可能佔成長的 15%，出貨量成長 5%？

Well, I mean, the -- our previous outlook based on the market data is we believe the foundry growth will be about 12% this year. And now we revised to about 20% and largely due to a higher utilization, some of the capacity expansion and also the ASP increase around the industry. So they're a combination, in our view, and that led us to believe that 20% will be the current projection.

嗯，我的意思是，我們之前基於市場數據的展望是，我們相信今年代工廠的成長將約為 12%。現在我們修正為 20% 左右，這主要是由於利用率提高、部分產能擴張以及行業平均售價的增加。因此，在我們看來，它們是一個組合，這讓我們相信目前的預測將是 20%。

Okay. Understood. And if I may, can I ask your -- based on your kind of calculation, what is the foundry -- the supply capacity, supply increase over the last year, I mean, 2021, and also this year? According to our calculation, it should be more than 10% last year and should be close to 10% in 2022. Just want to compare notes with your assumption.

好的。明白了。如果可以的話，我可以問一下你們——根據你們的計算，代工廠是什麼——供應能力，去年（我是說，2021 年）以及今年的供應量增長情況嗎？根據我們的計算，去年應該會超過10%，2022年應該會接近10%。

Well, I mean, the -- we -- obviously, we have a -- some data internally, the intelligence. But the data may base on a different base. So -- and different numbers. So it's -- I don't want to mislead you. It's associated with a different base level and different end result. So I think we -- you're probably talking about between the 6% to 10% range, yes.

嗯，我的意思是，我們——顯然，我們有——一些內部數據，情報。但數據可能基於不同的基礎。所以——還有不同的數字。所以——我不想誤導你。它與不同的基礎等級和不同的最終結果相關。所以我認為我們——你可能正在談論 6% 到 10% 的範圍，是的。

Okay. Okay. And then about -- your communication is more than half of your revenue, right? So can you break down into smartphone versus non-smartphone in that communications segment?

好的。好的。然後，您的溝通佔您收入的一半以上，對吧？那麼，您能否在通訊領域將其分為智慧型手機和非智慧型手機？

You mean within the communications segment?

您是說在通訊領域嗎？

Yes. How much is the smartphone?

是的。智慧型手機多少錢？

Oh, for the wireless, we project it's going to be about 85%. And for the wire, wire is probably going to be about 15%.

哦，對於無線，我們預計約為 85%。對於電線來說，電線可能會佔 15% 左右。

Oh, okay. I see. Yes. So I think I wanted to ask this. It's really to allude to this kind of tech supply chain inventory debate. So I guess first, I suppose it's just very, very near term, right, since you have a exposure to smartphone as well. Do you see any kind of a slowdown or inventory increase at your customers or channel for any of the segments, not just smartphone but also other consumer tech, PC, et cetera?

哦好的。我懂了。是的。所以我想我想問這個。這實際上是在暗示這種科技供應鏈庫存論點。所以我想首先，我想這只是非常非常近期的事情，對吧，因為你也接觸過智慧型手機。您是否發現任何細分市場的客戶或管道出現任何形式的放緩或庫存增加，不僅是智慧型手機，還包括其他消費技術、個人電腦等？

We kind of touched that a little bit earlier. We do see some of the wafer demand associated with the work from home and home learning as the softness. And the -- on the smartphone side, we also see the -- some softness, but the overall smartphone probably are flattish, kind of the lower end side. But we do expect the 5G smartphone, the penetration, will still continue. The automotive will continue. And we see a lots of activity on IoT space, too. So those will easily offset the softness. So I think at this point, we believe the demand will remain robust.

我們早些時候就觸及過這一點。我們確實認為與在家工作和在家學習相關的一些晶圓需求是疲軟的。在智慧型手機方面，我們也看到了一些柔軟度，但整體智慧型手機可能是平坦的，有點低階。但我們確實預期 5G 智慧型手機的滲透率仍將持續。汽車將繼續。我們也看到物聯網領域有很多活動。所以這些很容易抵消柔軟度。因此，我認為目前，我們相信需求將保持強勁。

If we talk about the near term, I think that for us this year, there are a few challenges, such as Omicron's case, only for tools and equipment we talked about earlier and also innovation, right? So for this year, we'll be focused on working closely with our -- both upstream and downstream partners to ensure the supply, the loading and the managing the cost issue. So I'm less concerned about the demand for the year, but I'm more focused on the overall, the other factors, yes.

如果我們談論近期，我認為今年對我們來說，有一些挑戰，例如 Omicron 的案例，僅針對我們之前談到的工具和設備以及創新，對吧？因此，今年，我們將專注於與上游和下游合作夥伴密切合作，以確保供應、裝載和管理成本問題。所以我不太關心今年的需求，但我更關注整體，其他因素，是的。

Okay. Just one very quick follow-up, and I will be back to the queue. So regarding the kind of tech supply chain-inventory assumption, your -- in terms of peers, that the supply chain needs to keep a very, very high inventory probably given the logistics issue, right? But our concern is that for consumer tech, the inventory value could discount, I mean, the products or the kind of chip components. So in your kind of full year assumption, do you consider timing of inventory correction? Or you think this year -- through the year, we wouldn't see a kind of inventory rebalancing for the tech supply chain?

好的。只需一個非常快速的後續行動，我就會回到隊列中。因此，關於科技供應鏈庫存假設，就同業而言，考慮到物流問題，供應鏈可能需要保持非常非常高的庫存，對吧？但我們擔心的是，對於消費科技來說，庫存價值可能會打折，我的意思是，產品或晶片組件的種類。那麼，在您的全年假設中，您是否考慮庫存調整的時間？或者你認為今年——全年，我們不會看到科技供應鏈出現某種庫存再平衡？

Well, I mean, the -- for the inventory level, right, we -- our data shows it was still at a moderate level for -- the inventory level. And we do see some inventory pile up, whether it's for logistics reason or for the high expectation outlook. There are some inventory preparation reasons, but we couldn't judge that. But we think on a high level, they're still within the moderate level. And so as long as we -- or majority, our focus is on the megatrends. I think it is on a -- they're still on an uptrend mode. So we actually have -- we still feel comfortable about it right now.

嗯，我的意思是，對於庫存水平，我們的數據顯示，庫存水平仍處於中等水平。我們確實看到一些庫存堆積，無論是出於物流原因還是出於對前景的高期望。有一些庫存準備原因，但我們無法判斷。但我們認為，從高水準來看，它們仍處於中等水平。因此，只要我們——或者說大多數人——我們的注意力集中在大趨勢上。我認為它們仍處於上升趨勢模式。所以我們現在仍然對此感到放心。

However, we both know that foundry is a cyclical industry.

然而，我們都知道代工是週期性產業。

Indeed. Indeed, yes.

的確。確實，是的。

And so I think for UMC, I think we're well positioned to weather through the cyclicality of the business. As we -- for the past few years, we've been prepared for this. We are ahead of our competition. Even now, we have a comprehensive technology portfolio that align to the megatrend. Like I mentioned earlier, we engage with all leading customer, coupled it with a well-balanced 8-inch and 12-inch diversified offering. Well, in addition, we did receive customers' endorsement through the increase of LTA for the future capacity expansion arrangement.

因此，我認為對於聯華電子來說，我們處於有利地位，能夠度過業務的周期性。在過去的幾年裡，我們已經為此做好了準備。我們在競爭中處於領先地位。即使現在，我們也擁有符合大趨勢的全面技術組合。正如我之前提到的，我們與所有領先客戶合作，並提供均衡的 8 吋和 12 吋多元化產品。那麼另外我們透過LTA的增加對於未來的擴產安排也確實得到了客戶的認可。

And all the effort we have spent in this past few years, we believe the company has become more resilient in the event of micro uncertainty if that happens. But we haven't really seen any signs they were happening in 2022. But I think that it's more important that as a company, we need to get prepared for it, yes.

經過過去幾年我們付出的所有努力，我們相信，如果發生微觀不確定性，公司已經變得更有彈性。但我們還沒有真正看到任何跡象表明它們會在 2022 年發生。

Your next question, Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan.

你的下一個問題是摩根大通的 Gokul Hariharan。

I have a couple of questions on pricing. First of all, when you engaged in price negotiations with customers recently, what is the feedback you're getting from fabless companies in terms of potential for further price hikes, especially after the very big one-off price hike that has been seen from your larger competitor, which probably hits pretty much all the fabless companies across the board? Do you feel that there is more room to travel in terms of price increases from here on? I mean, Q1, obviously, you've seen a meaningful price hike. But beyond that, how much scope of price adjustment do we see?

我有幾個關於定價的問題。首先，當您最近與客戶進行價格談判時，您從無晶圓廠公司獲得的關於進一步漲價潛力的反饋是什麼，特別是在您看到的一次性大幅漲價之後。 ，這可能會全面打擊幾乎所有無晶圓廠公司？您覺得今後漲價還有更大的空間嗎？我的意思是，顯然，第一季度，您已經看到了有意義的價格上漲。但除此之外，價格調整的幅度有多大？

Well, again, we don't take the pricing, the ASP as a short-term opportunistic tool. And so we are closely working with the customer to ensure we have a mutual growth and to capture the market opportunities. So I think right now, they understand our pricing adjustment for Q1, and we're going to be closely working with them. The -- for UMC, the 2022 ASP projection for the year, we project it's going to be similar to our 2021 number. So that already includes all the product mix as well the pricing adjustment that we have aligned with our customers. So far, I think that -- I think we do have the customers' understanding and alignment on those. But if the market does continue, that changes and we will work with our customer closely.

好吧，再說一遍，我們不把定價、平均售價當作短期機會主義工具。因此，我們與客戶密切合作，以確保我們一起成長並抓住市場機會。所以我認為現在他們了解我們第一季的定價調整，我們將與他們密切合作。對於 UMC 來說，我們預計 2022 年的 ASP 預測將與 2021 年的數字類似。因此，這已經包括所有產品組合以及我們與客戶保持一致的定價調整。到目前為止，我認為——我認為我們確實得到了客戶的理解和一致性。但如果市場繼續發展，情況就會發生變化，我們將與客戶密切合作。

Got it. So I think it's probably the biggest level of price increases that we have seen in any of the past 4 or 5 cycles. Roughly, I think if I take your mid-teens price increase, blended basis, in '22, you're probably 30% higher than where 2020 was. Let's say there is a downturn sometime in the future. How do you think about pricing? Do you think this pricing can hold at generally this level? Or do you feel that there is going to be some level of accommodation needed, especially given the big magnitude of price increases you have seen in the up cycle?

知道了。所以我認為這可能是我們在過去 4 或 5 個週期中看到的最大的價格上漲水準。粗略地說，我認為如果我考慮 22 年 15 歲左右的價格上漲（混合基礎上），您的價格可能比 2020 年高出 30%。假設未來某個時候會出現經濟衰退。您如何看待定價？您認為這個定價能維持在這個水準嗎？或者您認為需要一定程度的調整，特別是考慮到您在上行週期中看到的價格大幅上漲？

Well, I mean, that's very good. I mean that's also the logic behind, that we don't go out there just raising price for raising price. The -- for the past couple of years, we tried to realign our ASP to the market price and also reflect our market value. And so I think we have done that in the past. And now that we -- we're basically at the market price level and that this ASP reflects our market relevance, and so I think the customer has that understanding going forward. The market dynamics, we definitely have to cook that with that in mind. But in general, I think this will stay fairly at what our market price will be, yes.

嗯，我的意思是，這非常好。我的意思是，這也是背後的邏輯，我們不會為了提高價格而提高價格。在過去的幾年裡，我們試圖根據市場價格調整我們的平均售價，並反映我們的市場價值。所以我認為我們過去已經這樣做了。現在我們基本上處於市場價格水平，而且這個平均售價反映了我們的市場相關性，所以我認為客戶對未來有這樣的理解。市場動態，我們絕對必須考慮到這一點。但總的來說，我認為這將公平地保持在我們的市場價格上，是的。

Okay. Maybe one more question on demand and what customers are doing. I think, Jason, you mentioned there is some weakness that you're seeing in some parts of smartphone as well as some parts of work from home, WiFi, et cetera. Are these customers actively reducing orders with you? Or they're still tending to keep higher inventory given the supply chain risk? End demand, obviously, I think you can see that as kind of weakening. But are you kind of seeing that translate to your orders as well? Or are they still tending to keep more inventory? .

好的。也許還有一個按需提問以及客戶在做什麼。 Jason，我認為您提到智慧型手機的某些部分以及在家工作、WiFi 等的某些部分存在一些弱點。這些客戶是否主動減少對您的訂單？或者考慮到供應鏈風險，他們仍然傾向於保持較高的庫存？顯然，最終需求，我認為你可以將其視為一種疲軟。但您是否也看到這也轉化為您的訂單？或者他們仍然傾向於保留更多庫存？ 。

Well, right now, we continue experiencing customers' escalations so -- on a daily basis. So I actually have -- like I mentioned earlier, we do see some of the inventory increase on some components, but there are uneven supply situation. And the escalation situation is -- actually remains. It didn't change much. And we have been closely communicating with all the customer, whether it's auto or the communication or consumer customer. And we have been very transparent and provide a very high visibility for them to understand it. And so if there is a challenge, we will continue to alleviate the shortage situation. But we're still under that mode. I think we have not seen a sign or signal that we have gone into an inventory -- over-inventory situation, yes.

嗯，現在，我們每天都在繼續遇到客戶的升級。所以我實際上 - 正如我之前提到的，我們確實看到某些組件的庫存增加，但存在供應不平衡的情況。升級的情況實際上仍然存在。沒有太大變化。我們一直在與所有客戶密切溝通，無論是汽車客戶還是通訊或消費客戶。我們一直非常透明，並為他們提供了非常高的可見性以使其理解。因此，如果存在挑戰，我們將繼續緩解短缺情況。但我們仍然處於這種模式。我認為我們還沒有看到任何跡像或信號表明我們已經進入庫存——庫存過剩的情況，是的。

Next question, Randy Abrams, Crédit Suisse.

下一個問題是瑞信的蘭迪·艾布拉姆斯 (Randy Abrams)。

Yes. I wanted to ask just a follow-up on the LTA then. If you could discuss the -- in an inventory correction, the protection. Is it quantity based where they can defer the quantity? And then is the element also -- any degree of pricing or prepayment involved? Like if you could just update the structure of these LTA you've set up.

是的。當時我想問一下 LTA 的後續。如果您可以討論庫存修正中的保護。是否基於數量，他們可以推遲數量？還有一個因素——是否涉及任何程度的定價或預付款？就像您可以更新您所設定的這些 LTA 的結構一樣。

Well, they -- well, the way I would say is well protected for both customer and us. They -- we have provided the capacity assurance while we -- while the LTA provides a loading protection in UMC in return. The -- such loading protection includes the volume and the ASP. And so...

嗯，他們——嗯，我想說的方式對客戶和我們都得到了很好的保護。他們——我們提供了容量保證，而我們——而LTA則在UMC中提供了負載保護作為回報。 ——這樣的載入保護包括磁碟區和ASP。所以...

Deposit.

訂金。

Yes, and deposit. But I probably won't be able to go into detail with that, yes, because we do have a confidential clause with our customers, yes.

是的，還有押金。但我可能無法詳細說明這一點，是的，因為我們確實與客戶有保密條款，是的。

Okay. And then the other question I wanted to ask, on 28, if you could go through how you see that. Is that -- the way we think about it, it's still about 20% year-on-year the next couple of years because now you have the overall company growing at that pace. Like if you could give an update how you see 28 growing.

好的。然後是 28 日我想問的另一個問題，您是否可以說說您對此的看法。是不是——按照我們的想法，未來幾年同比增長率仍約為 20%，因為現在整個公司都在以這樣的速度成長。就像您能否更新您對 28 成長的看法。

And back to your view of, say, oversupply 2 years from now in that node, is the plan by that time we go back to upgrading to FinFET where we upgrade? Or is it your view slow down capacity just knowing we might get to that oversupply situation? So beyond these current phases, making the plan to start slowing down, factoring what other players are doing.

回到你的觀點，比如說，從現在起 2 年後在該節點出現供應過剩，到那時我們是否計劃重新升級到我們升級的 FinFET？或者您認為我們可能會陷入供應過剩的情況而降低產能？因此，除了目前的這些階段之外，制定計劃開始放慢速度，考慮其他參與者正在做的事情。

Sure. So for the 2022, the 28-nanometer capacity will grow an additional 20% year-over-year, okay? And beyond the 2022, the -- we still have a very high confidence that 28 will be sweet spot, okay, and for many application. So I think the demand will continue. The growth will continue.

當然。那麼到2022年，28奈米產能將年比額外成長20%，好嗎？ 2022 年之後，我們仍然非常有信心 28 將成為許多應用的最佳選擇。所以我認為需求將會持續下去。成長將持續。

And based on our alignment with the customer and the endorsement based on LTA, I think those 28 capacities will protect -- as a potential risk mitigation for the 28 to migrate into 14, that option is always there. There's a high commonality percentage of the 2 that actually we'd be able to convert to 14. And so I think that option will always be there, yes.

基於我們與客戶的一致性以及基於 LTA 的認可，我認為這 28 個容量將受到保護——作為 28 個遷移到 14 個的潛在風險緩解，該選項始終存在。 2 的通用性百分比很高，實際上我們可以將其轉換為 14。 所以我認為這個選項將永遠存在，是的。

And just the last follow-up on the application. Has there been broadening? You've talked in the past things like the OLED driver WiFi 6, ISP. When you mentioned the additional surge of business, are there any new promising application sort of sweet spots?

這只是申請的最後跟進。有沒有拓寬？您過去曾談到諸如 OLED 驅動器、WiFi 6、ISP 之類的事情。當您提到業務的額外激增時，是否有任何新的有前途的應用程式類型的最佳點？

Well, we're starting the exploration of the 28 nonvolatile memory that is starting to get into a discussion. And the ISP will also be in 28 nanometers, which is for the sensor controller. And those -- it's all going to be a very strong application, yes.

好了，我們開始對28非揮發性記憶體的探索，開始進入討論。 ISP也將採用28奈米工藝，用於感測器控制器。是的，這些都將是一個非常強大的應用程式。

Ladies and gentlemen, we are taking the last question, which is from Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

女士們、先生們，我們接受最後一個問題，來自高盛的陸小龍。

I have two questions. The first one is your 2021 CapEx ended up with $1.8 billion, which is like $500 million shortfall from the previous guidance. But you just mentioned that maybe some of the tools is pushed out to 2022. So -- which means that your $3 billion CapEx initiative include those $500 million pushout. Is that the right understanding?

我有兩個問題。第一個是您 2021 年的資本支出最終為 18 億美元，比之前的指導缺口約 5 億美元。但您剛剛提到，也許某些工具會推遲到 2022 年。這是正確的理解嗎？

Yes. Yes.

是的。是的。

So -- which means originally, we were expecting $3 billion CapEx, but effectively, it's $2.5 billion. Is that the right understanding from my side?

因此，這意味著最初我們預計資本支出為 30 億美元，但實際上是 25 億美元。從我的角度來看，這是正確的理解嗎？

That's based upon the current payment schedule. But still, this number is not really -- if you compare it to our larger competitor, it's actually a smaller number to maneuver. So, I mean, this number is -- dynamically adjusts according to our payment schedule. And this $3 billion is based upon our visibility right now.

這是基於目前的付款計劃。但儘管如此，這個數字並不是真的——如果你將它與我們更大的競爭對手進行比較，它實際上是一個更小的數字。所以，我的意思是，這個數字是根據我們的付款計劃動態調整的。這 30 億美元是基於我們目前的知名度。

I see. Understand. The second thing is that when everyone is expecting like expanding 28-nanometer capacity industry-wide, which means that for other legacy 12-inch like 40 nanometers, which is like no one is expanding those type of capacity and which we also see some of the big shortage of it, do you have any plan to increase the 40 nanometers or other nodal capacity?

我懂了。理解。第二件事是，當每個人都期望在全行業範圍內擴大28 奈米產能時，這意味著對於其他傳統12 吋（如40 奈米）來說，就像沒有人在擴大這些類型的產能一樣，我們也看到了一些其最大的缺點是，你們有計劃增加40奈米或其他節點的產能嗎？

If there is, we will definitely report accordingly. We definitely see that as well. We are seeing the shortage across the -- all nodes. And so if there is any plan on that, we will definitely report that.

如果有的話，我們一定會進行相應的報告。我們當然也看到了這一點。我們看到所有節點都出現短缺。因此，如果有任何計劃，我們一定會報告。

And ladies and gentlemen, we thank you for all your questions. That concludes today's Q&A session. I'll turn things over to UMC Head of IR for closing remarks.

女士們、先生們，我們感謝你們提出的所有問題。今天的問答環節到此結束。我會將事情轉交給 UMC IR 主管進行總結發言。

Thank you for attending this conference today. We appreciate your questions. As always, if you have any additional follow-up questions, please feel free to contact UMC at ir@umc.com. Have a good day and happy Chinese New Year.

感謝您參加今天的這次會議。我們感謝您的提問。與往常一樣，如果您有任何其他後續問題，請隨時透過 ir@umc.com 聯絡 UMC。祝你有美好的一天，新年快樂。

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our conference for 4Q '21. Thank you for your participation in UMC's conference. There will be a webcast replay within 2 hours. Please visit www.umc.com under the Investors/Events section. You may now disconnect. Goodbye.

謝謝。女士們、先生們，我們 21 年第四季的會議到此結束。感謝您參加聯華電子的會議。 2小時內將進行網路直播重播。請造訪 www.umc.com 的「投資者/活動」部分。您現在可以斷開連線。再見。