諾基亞 (NOK) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Nokia's Third Quarter 2023 Results Call. I'm David Mulholland, Head of Nokia Investor Relations. And today, with me here in Espoo, is Pekka Lundmark, our President and CEO, along with Marco Wiren, our CFO.

早安，女士們，先生們。歡迎參加諾基亞 2023 年第三季業績電話會議。我是諾基亞投資者關係主管大衛‧穆赫蘭。今天，與我一起來到埃斯波的還有我們的總裁兼執行長 Pekka Lundmark 以及我們的財務長 Marco Wiren。

Before we get started, a quick disclaimer. During this call, we will be making forward-looking statements regarding our future business and financial performance, and these statements are predictions that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results we currently expect. Results that could cause -- factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website.

在我們開始之前，先簡單聲明一下。在本次電話會議中，我們將就我們未來的業務和財務表現做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述是涉及風險和不確定性的預測。因此，實際結果可能與我們目前預期的結果有重大差異。可能導致這種差異的因素可能是外在因素，也可能是內在因素。我們已在 20-F 表格年度報告的風險因素部分中識別出此類風險，該表格可在我們的投資者關係網站上取得。

Within today's presentation, references to growth rates will mostly be on a constant currency basis. And where we refer to margins, it will be based on our comparable reporting. Please note that our Q3 report and the presentation that accompanies this call are published on our website. The report includes both reported and comparable financial results and a reconciliation between the two.

在今天的演示中，對成長率的提及大多以固定匯率為基礎。當我們提到利潤率時，它將基於我們的可比較報告。請注意，我們的第三季報告和本次電話會議附帶的簡報已發佈在我們的網站上。該報告包括報告的和可比較的財務結果以及兩者之間的調節表。

In terms of the agenda for today's call, Pekka will give a quick overview of some of the announcements we've made this morning along with our financial progress in the quarter. Marco will then go into a bit more detail on some of the key factors influencing our financial performance before Pekka gives a brief conclusion, and we move to Q&A.

就今天電話會議的議程而言，佩卡將快速概述我們今天早上發布的一些公告以及本季的財務進展。然後，Marco 將更詳細地介紹影響我們財務表現的一些關鍵因素，然後 Pekka 給出簡短的結論，然後我們進入問答環節。

With that, let me hand over to Pekka.

那麼，就讓我把任務交給佩卡吧。

Thank you, David, and thank you all for joining us today. Before we talk about our financial performance, I wanted to actually start and explain some other announcements we have made today because we are taking decisive action on three levels: strategic, operational and costs.

謝謝大衛，也謝謝大家今天加入我們。在我們談論我們的財務表現之前，我想真正開始並解釋我們今天發布的其他一些公告，因為我們正在三個層面上採取果斷行動：策略、營運和成本。

We will accelerate our strategy execution by providing our four business groups with increased operational autonomy and agility. This will enable them to better address opportunities in their distinctive markets. They will be empowered to faster diversify beyond service providers, build new ecosystem partnerships, implement new business models and invest for technology leadership.

我們將透過為我們的四個業務集團提供更高的營運自主權和敏捷性來加速我們的策略執行。這將使他們能夠更好地抓住其獨特市場的機會。他們將能夠更快地實現服務提供者之外的多元化，建立新的生態系統合作夥伴關係，實施新的業務模式並投資以獲得技術領先地位。

We are also streamlining our operating model. We had, in 2021, created four P&L responsible business groups, structured around unique customer offerings, but supported by a shared sales organization. We will now embed the sales teams into the business group, so the new model is the one that you will see here on the right-hand side on the slide. These dedicated sales teams with a strong product and customer connection will enable business groups to better seize growth opportunities and diversify into enterprise web-scale and government sectors. This change will bring highly empowered teams in front of customers that are able to make quicker decisions based on their needs.

我們也正在簡化我們的營運模式。 2021 年，我們創建了四個負責損益的業務小組，圍繞著獨特的客戶產品構建，但由共享銷售組織提供支援。我們現在將把銷售團隊嵌入到業務組中，因此您將在投影片右側看到新的模型。這些敬業的銷售團隊擁有強大的產品和客戶聯繫，將使業務集團能夠更好地抓住成長機會，並向企業網絡規模和政府部門多元化發展。這項變更將為客戶帶來高度授權的團隊，他們能夠根據他們的需求更快地做出決策。

The company will also move to a leaner corporate center with strategic oversight and guidelines, for instance, for financial performance, portfolio development and compliance. We will continue our strong commitment to long-term research through Nokia Bell Labs.

該公司還將轉向一個更精簡的企業中心，提供策略監督和指導方針，例如財務績效、投資組合開發和合規性。我們將繼續堅定地致力於透過諾基亞貝爾實驗室進行長期研究。

In the face of a more challenging market environment, we will reduce our cost base to secure our profitability. We are moving quickly to lower our cost base on a gross basis by EUR 800 million to EUR 1.2 billion by the end of 2026, assuming on target variable pay in both periods. Nokia expects to act quickly on the program with at least EUR 400 million of in-year savings in 2024 and a further EUR 300 million in '25. The program is expected to result in a 72,000 to 77,000 employee organization instead of the approximately 86,000 employees Nokia has today. Overall, this represents a 10% to 15% reduction in personnel expenses. The exact scale of the program will depend on the evolution of the market demand in the coming years. We do expect net savings, but the magnitude will depend on how inflation develops.

面對更具挑戰性的市場環境，我們將降低成本基礎以確保獲利能力。我們正在迅速採取行動，到 2026 年底將我們的總成本基礎降低 8 億歐元至 12 億歐元，假設這兩個時期的目標都是可變薪酬。諾基亞預計將迅速採取行動，在 2024 年年內節省至少 4 億歐元，並在 2025 年進一步節省 3 億歐元。該計劃預計將形成一個擁有 72,000 至 77,000 名員工的組織，而不是諾基亞目前的約 86,000 名員工。總體而言，這意味著人員費用減少了 10% 至 15%。該計劃的具體規模將取決於未來幾年市場需求的變化。我們確實預期會有淨儲蓄，但其幅度將取決於通貨膨脹的發展。

If we now turn to our financial performance in Q3. We saw an increased impact on our business from the macroeconomic challenges, which are pressuring operator spending, and that resulted in a 15% year-on-year decline in net sales. Gross margin at 39.2% declined only slightly versus the previous year, and I'm happy to see a sequential improvement in gross margin in Mobile Networks. However, it is during such challenging times that the business proves its resilience, and that is exactly what we see when we look at the operating margin, which was 8.5% for the quarter.

如果我們現在轉向第三季的財務表現。我們看到宏觀經濟挑戰對我們業務的影響加大，營運商支出受到壓力，導致淨銷售額年減 15%。毛利率為 39.2%，與前一年相比僅略有下降，我很高興看到行動網路毛利率連續改善。然而，正是在這樣充滿挑戰的時期，該業務證明了其彈性，而這正是我們在查看本季營業利潤率（8.5%）時所看到的。

Network Infrastructure sales declined by 14%, with most business lines declining with the exception of Optical Networks. IP Networks sales declined by 24%, reflecting weakness in North America as customers continue to evaluate their spending as well as small declines in other regions. The 19% decline in Fixed Networks was broad-based, exacerbated by tough comparisons to the quarter year -- corresponding quarter a year ago. Fixed Networks was also impacted by customer spending in America as well as some inventory digestion. There was a small decline of 5% in Submarine Networks, which related to project timing. The growth in Optical Networks of 4% was primarily driven by India and showed the continuing momentum in customer engagement with our PSE-V solutions. Recently, gross margin in Network Infrastructure improved year-over-year, while operating margin was somewhat resilient at 9.5%, a decline of 80 basis points.

網路基礎設施銷售額下降了 14%，除光網路外，大多數業務線均出現下降。 IP 網路銷售額下降了 24%，反映出北美地區的疲軟（客戶繼續評估其支出）以及其他地區的小幅下降。固定網路 19% 的下降是廣泛的，與本季（去年同期）的嚴格比較進一步加劇了這一下降。固定網路也受到美國客戶支出以及一些庫存消化的影響。海底網路小幅下降了 5%，這與專案時間表有關。光網路 4% 的成長主要由印度推動，這表明客戶對我們的 PSE-V 解決方案的參與度持續成長。最近，網路基礎設施業務的毛利率較去年同期有所改善，而營業利潤率則有所回升，為 9.5%，下降了 80 個基點。

In Mobile Networks, we saw the regional trends of the first half continuing in Q3. North America sales were impacted by the challenging macro environment and as customers continued to digest inventories. India grew significantly year-over-year, but the pace of deployment has slowed significantly compared to H1. There were declines in most other regions with the exception of Middle East and Africa, which had modest growth.

在行動網路方面，我們看到第三季延續了上半年的區域趨勢。北美銷售受到充滿挑戰的宏觀環境以及客戶繼續消化庫存的影響。印度年增率顯著，但部署速度較上半年明顯放緩。除中東和非洲略有成長外，大多數其他地區均出現下降。

Gross margin declined year-on-year, reflecting the regional mix, but we did see a sequential improvement and expect further improvement into Q4.

毛利率同比下降，反映了區域組合，但我們確實看到了環比改善，並預計第四季度將進一步改善。

Operating margin also declined to a lesser extent as it benefited from positive impacts of other operating income. As you can see in the bottom left of the slide, over the last 18 months, we have gained over 3 points of market share in the overall RAN market, excluding China, a real testament to the improved competitiveness of our products.

營業利益率下降幅度較小，因為它受益於其他營業收入的正面影響。正如您在幻燈片左下角看到的那樣，在過去18 個月裡，我們在整個RAN 市場（不包括中國）中獲得了超過3 個百分點的市場份額，這真正證明了我們產品競爭力的提高。

Cloud and Network Services delivered a more stable performance in Q3 with a small top line decline. We are happy to see that the growth in Enterprise Solutions continued, but was offset by small declines elsewhere. Operating margin in Cloud and Network Services expanded by 290 basis points, somewhat also benefiting from other operating income.

雲端和網路服務在第三季表現更加穩定，營收略有下降。我們很高興看到企業解決方案持續成長，但被其他領域的小幅下滑所抵消。雲端和網路服務的營業利潤率擴大了 290 個基點，在一定程度上也受益於其他營業收入。

We take a moment to understand the evolution of the digital ecosystem today, we have visualized on the slide -- as we have visualized on the slide that you can see on the screen. This slide brings together the ecosystem of CSPs, hyperscalers, enterprises and developers working together to bring new capabilities to market to enable Industry 4.0, the Metaverse and many other new types of value.

我們花點時間來了解當今數位生態系統的演變，我們在幻燈片上進行了可視化 - 正如我們在幻燈片上可視化的那樣，您可以在螢幕上看到。這張投影片匯集了 CSP、超大規模企業、企業和開發人員的生態系統，共同努力將新功能推向市場，以實現工業 4.0、Metaverse 和許多其他新型價值。

Our Network Monetization Platform, which delivers network as code to the ecosystem launched in September, brings the ecosystem together through APIs to enable seamless connectivity, whereby enabling new use cases to help CSPs and enterprises take advantage of the opportunities created. We have created this platform which, once again, we call Network as Code organically, bringing deep knowledge and understanding of networks, enterprises and the developer community, which puts us firmly at the forefront to help operators monetize their advanced 4G and 5G assets using network APIs. We want to empower a new wave of enterprise and industrial applications that can utilize the network in a much more programmable way. We have seen significant interest from operators globally and have already signed for strategic agreements.

我們的網路貨幣化平台為9 月推出的生態系統提供網路即代碼，透過API 將生態系統整合在一起，以實現無縫連接，從而啟用新的用例，幫助通訊服務提供者和企業利用所創造的機會。我們創建了這個平台，我們再次將其有機地稱為“網絡即代碼”，帶來了對網絡、企業和開發者社區的深入了解和理解，這使我們堅定地站在最前沿，幫助運營商利用網路將其先進的4G和5G資產貨幣化蜜蜂。我們希望推動新一波的企業和工業應用程式能夠以更可程式化的方式利用網路。我們已經看到全球營運商的濃厚興趣，並且已經簽署了戰略協議。

Raghav will go into more detail on the work we are doing in this space at our investor event in December.

Raghav 將在 12 月的投資者活動中更詳細地介紹我們在這一領域所做的工作。

Nokia Technologies declined 14% as a result of the same two items that have impacted prior quarters in 2023. Our Q3 run rate remained at EUR 1 billion, stable compared to prior quarters. We remain confident in our ability to return to the EUR 1.4 billion to EUR 1.5 billion run rate that we have had been in the past as we complete the smartphone licensing renewal cycle and further expanding into new growth areas. It is worth noting that renewal negotiations also continue with certain other smartphone companies. We also passed a key milestone recently. We now have over 6,000 patents declared essential to 5G.

由於影響 2023 年前幾季的兩個相同項目，諾基亞科技公司的業績下降了 14%。我們第三季的營業額維持在 10 億歐元，與前幾季相比保持穩定。隨著我們完成智慧型手機許可更新周期並進一步擴展到新的成長領域，我們仍然有信心恢復到過去 14 億歐元至 15 億歐元的運行速度。值得注意的是，與某些其他智慧型手機公司的續約談判也持續進行。我們最近也實現了一個重要的里程碑。我們現在擁有 6,000 多項聲明對 5G 至關重要的專利。

And then turning briefly to our Enterprise performance in Q3. Net sales grew by 5% in the quarter and have now reached approximately 10% of the group net sales on a 4-quarter rolling basis. This is well aligned with our ambitions and have no intention to slow down expanding into this area. Private wireless grew at a double-digit rate once again, and we now have approximately 675 customers. Overall, Enterprise remains a key part of our strategy, and we are pleased with the progress here despite the macro uncertainty we have been seeing elsewhere in the business.

然後簡單介紹一下我們第三季的企業業績。本季淨銷售額成長了 5%，以 4 季滾動計算目前已達到集團淨銷售額的 10% 左右。這與我們的抱負非常吻合，並且無意放慢向這一領域擴張的步伐。專用無線再次以兩位數的速度成長，我們現在擁有約 675 名客戶。總體而言，企業仍然是我們策略的關鍵部分，儘管我們在業務的其他方面看到了宏觀不確定性，但我們對這裡的進展感到滿意。

So with that, let me turn it over to Marco to comment on our financial performance in a little bit more detail. Over to you, Marco.

因此，讓我將其轉交給 Marco，更詳細地評論我們的財務表現。交給你了，馬可。

Yes. Thanks, Pekka. And let me start by commenting the regional performance of our business. And we saw continued year-on-year growth in India, where the net sales grew 121% in the quarter, and this was driven by both Mobile Networks and Network Infrastructure. And as we indicated last quarter as well, we have seen some normalization in the region in quarter 3, and we expect the pace of deployment to continue to slow. We saw declines in most regions and notably in North America, where we saw the largest impact from the macroeconomic as well as from inventory digestion effect I referred to as well. And this led to a decline of 40% year-on-year.

是的。謝謝，佩卡。首先讓我評論一下我們業務的區域業績。我們看到印度持續年增，本季淨銷售額成長 121%，這是由行動網路和網路基礎設施推動的。正如我們上季度所指出的，我們在第三季看到該地區出現了一些正常化，我們預計部署速度將繼續放緩。我們看到大多數地區都出​​現了下降，特別是在北美，我們看到宏觀經濟以及我提到的庫存消化效應的影響最大。這導致年減40%。

And then if we look at the operating profit in the quarter, you can see here that the maturity of the decline was driven by Mobile Networks. And this reflected the regional mix that has been impacting the business through the year, mainly due to increased levels of sales in India and then, of course, the lower sales in North America.

然後，如果我們看一下本季的營業利潤，您可以在這裡看到下降的成熟度是由行動網路推動的。這反映了全年影響業務的區域組合，主要是由於印度銷售額的增加，當然還有北美銷售額的下降。

And also Network Infrastructure, we -- you can see here that it was rather resilient despite the overall top line decline. Cloud and Network Services showed some progress in the quarter, while Nokia Technologies declined and the group common change was minimal as venture fund performance was flat year-on-year.

還有網路基礎設施，您可以在這裡看到，儘管整體營收下降，但它仍具有相當的彈性。雲端和網路服務在本季度取得了一些進展，而諾基亞技術則出現了下滑，並且由於風險基金業績同比持平，集團的共同變化很小。

And turning to our cash performance. Our free cash flow was negative EUR 400 million in quarter and was mainly driven by continued outflows in net working capital. And this largely reflected an increase in receivables and increase in liabilities, while inventories declined slightly.

轉向我們的現金表現。本季我們的自由現金流為負 4 億歐元，主要是因為淨營運資本持續流出。這主要反映了應收帳款的增加和負債的增加，而庫存則略有下降。

In the quarter, we returned EUR 260 million to shareholders through dividends and share buybacks and we ended the quarter with EUR 3 billion of net cash. And while our cash performance has been quite weak year-to-date, we do expect net working capital headwinds to ease in quarter 4 and for cash performance to improve.

本季，我們透過股利和股票回購向股東返還 2.6 億歐元，本季末淨現金為 30 億歐元。儘管我們的現金表現今年迄今相當疲軟，但我們確實預期營運淨資本的不利因素將在第四季度緩解，現金表現將有所改善。

And next, looking at our total addressable markets. We saw further deterioration in the quarter, namely in Mobile Networks and, to a lesser extent, Network Infrastructure. Mobile Networks addressable market is now expected to decline 9% as the macro uncertainty continued to adversely impact our year. Clearly, our market has seen a challenging environment this year, but we do still believe in the mid- to long-term attractiveness of this space.

接下來，看看我們的總目標市場。我們看到本季的情況進一步惡化，尤其是行動網路以及網路基礎設施方面（程度較輕）。由於宏觀不確定性繼續對我們的年度產生不利影響，行動網路潛在市場目前預計將下降 9%。顯然，今年我們的市場環境充滿挑戰，但我們仍然相信該領域的中長期吸引力。

And then finally, turning to our outlook. While our third quarter net sales were impacted by the ongoing uncertainty, we expect to see a more normal seasonal improvement in our network business in the fourth quarter. And based on this and assuming also that we resolved the outstanding renewals impacting Nokia Technologies, we are tracking towards the lower end of our EUR 23.2 billion to EUR 24.6 billion net sales range for 2023. And we continue to track towards the midpoint of our comparable operating margin range of 11.5% to 13%.

最後，轉向我們的前景。雖然我們第三季的淨銷售額受到持續不確定性的影響，但我們預計第四季度我們的網路業務將出現更正常的季節性改善。基於此，並假設我們解決了影響諾基亞技術的未完成續約問題，我們將朝著2023 年232 億歐元至246 億歐元淨銷售額範圍的下限邁進。並且我們將繼續朝著可比銷售額的中點邁進。營業利潤率範圍為11.5%至13%。

And with that, back to you, Pekka, for some final remarks.

說到這裡，佩卡，請您做最後的發言。

Thank you, Marco. To summarize, our third quarter performance demonstrated resilience in our operating margin despite the impact of the weaker environment on our net sales. In the last 3 years, we have invested heavily to strengthen our technology leadership across the business, giving us a firm foundation to weather this period of market weakness.

謝謝你，馬可。總而言之，儘管疲軟的環境對我們的淨銷售額產生了影響，但我們第三季的業績表現出營業利潤率的彈性。在過去的三年裡，我們投入了大量資金來加強我們在整個業務中的技術領先地位，為我們度過這段市場疲軟時期奠定了堅實的基礎。

We continue to believe in the mid- to long-term attractiveness of our markets. Data traffic is expected to continue to grow 20% to 30% per year. And actually, the big picture is pretty simple. I mean the whole world is talking about cloud computing and AR evolutions, and there are huge expectations on both. But neither of the two, cloud computing or AR evolutions will materialize without significant investments in networks that have vastly improved capabilities. So that's why we believe that this is a question of timing. But however, since that timing of market recovery is uncertain, we are now taking decisive action on three levels: strategic, operational and costs, as I described. So I believe that these actions will make a significant contribution to creating value for our shareholders.

我們仍然相信我們市場的中長期吸引力。數據流量預計將繼續以每年 20% 至 30% 的速度成長。事實上，大局非常簡單。我的意思是全世界都在談論雲端運算和 AR 的發展，並且對兩者都抱持著巨大的期望。但如果不對能力大幅提高的網路進行大量投資，雲端運算或擴增實境這兩者的發展都不會實現。這就是為什麼我們認為這是一個時間問題。但是，由於市場復甦的時間不確定，我們現在正在三個層面採取果斷行動：策略、營運和成本，正如我所描述的。所以我相信這些行動將為我們的股東創造價值做出重大貢獻。

So with that, over to David for Q&A.

那麼，接下來請 David 進行問答。

Thank you, Pekka and Marco, for the remarks. Before we start the Q&A, I just wanted to highlight that, as Pekka mentioned, we do plan to hold an analyst and investor progress update event on the 12th of December at our headquarters in Espoo, Finland. We hope many of you will be able to join us in person, and registration details will be coming out next week. At the event, we will have presentations from Pekka and Marco on the evolution of our operating model, along with an update from Tommi Uitto on what we're doing in Mobile Networks, along with Raghav Sahgal on Cloud and Network Services.

謝謝佩卡和馬可的發言。在我們開始問答之前，我只想強調一下，正如佩卡所提到的，我們確實計劃於 12 月 12 日在我們位於芬蘭埃斯波的總部舉行分析師和投資者進展更新活動。我們希望你們中的許多人能夠親自加入我們，註冊詳細資訊將於下周公布。在活動中，Pekka 和 Marco 將介紹我們營運模式的演變，Tommi Uitto 將介紹我們在行動網路方面的最新進展，Raghav Sahgal 將介紹雲端和網路服務。

With that, let's start the Q&A. (Operator Instructions) Alex, could you please give the instructions?

那麼，就讓我們開始問答吧。 （操作員說明）Alex，您能給一下說明嗎？

(Operator Instructions) I will now hand the call back to Mr. David Mulholland.

（接線員指示）我現在將電話轉回給 David Mulholland 先生。

Thank you, Alex. We'll take our first question from Alex Peterc from Societe General.

謝謝你，亞歷克斯。我們將回答法國興業銀行 Alex Peterc 提出的第一個問題。

My first question would be really on what we should read into your substantial -- in your cost-cutting plan. Is that mainly what you think is required to get you to 14% margins by 2024? Or should we also read as it is that you plan for potentially a longer and more protracted deeper downturn in your end markets without guiding on 2024? Could you give us some sense of direction there? And I have a quick follow-up.

我的第一個問題實際上是關於我們應該解讀你們的實質內容——在你們的成本削減計劃中。您認為到 2024 年，這是否是讓您的利潤率達到 14% 所需的主要條件？或者我們還應該讀到，您計劃在沒有 2024 年指導的情況下，終端市場可能出現更長、更持久、更深層次的低迷？您能給我們一些方向感嗎？我有一個快速的跟進。

Thank you. And when it comes to long-term target, we have said that we aim to reach that by 2026. We haven't given any more specific on that when it comes to '24, so we cannot give you any guidance on that yet. We will get back to that in our quarter 4 report. Otherwise, the cost-cutting program, we are taking actions now to be prepared for the market conditions that we see right now. And as we said also that depending how the market evolves over the next coming years, how much we will basically do the cost cuttings and what levels would we get. And that's why we're giving you this interval as well.

謝謝。當談到長期目標時，我們說過我們的目標是到 2026 年實現這一目標。當談到 24 世紀時，我們還沒有給出更多具體信息，所以我們還不能給你任何指導。我們將在第四季度報告中回顧這一點。否則，我們現在正在採取成本削減計劃，為我們現在看到的市場狀況做好準備。正如我們所說，根據未來幾年市場的發展情況，我們基本上會削減多少成本以及我們會達到什麼水平。這就是為什麼我們也給你這個間隔。

Clearly, if I add one thing, the key thing here really is to be prepared for various scenarios. We are not saying necessarily that this would be a long downturn. But the thing is that it is impossible to say exactly how long it will last. We just want to be prepared for different possibilities.

顯然，如果我添加一件事，這裡的關鍵是為各種情況做好準備。我們不一定說這將是一場長期的低迷。但問題是，不可能確切地說它會持續多久。我們只是想為不同的可能性做好準備。

And you have a follow up.

並且您有後續行動。

Just a very quick follow-up. You do note the ongoing inventory reduction at your customers that affect your top line, and that was very visible in the quarter. Could you help us understand where you think we are in this destocking cycle at your Mobile and Fixed Network operator clients in major geographies?

只是一個非常快速的跟進。您確實注意到客戶庫存的持續減少影響了您的收入，這在本季非常明顯。您能否幫助我們了解您認為主要地區的行動和固定網路營運商客戶在這個去庫存週期中處於什麼位置？

Yes, Alex. This -- I mean, the inventory digestion obviously varies by customer, but things do continue to trend in the right direction. Some customers are more advanced than others in terms of reaching their desired levels, and it continues to impact Q4 given the pace of rollout of several networks that's slowed, but the big picture still is that we expect this to be much less of a topic in 2024.

是的，亞歷克斯。我的意思是，庫存消化顯然因客戶而異，但事情確實繼續朝著正確的方向發展。一些客戶在達到他們期望的水平方面比其他客戶更先進，考慮到幾個網路的推出速度放緩，它繼續影響第四季度，但總體情況仍然是，我們預計這不會成為一個主題2024 年。

Thank you, Alex. We'll take our next question from Simon Leopold from Raymond James.

謝謝你，亞歷克斯。我們將回答雷蒙德·詹姆斯的西蒙·利奧波德提出的下一個問題。

I want to see if you could maybe unpack a bit about what's informing your confidence in the seasonal improvement for 4Q and just remind us what are your views on what is normal seasonal, just so we've got a reference on that. And what I'm looking for is whether it's around products or around geographies, just what's kind of the bill to that confidence?

我想看看您是否可以透露是什麼讓您對第四季度的季節性改善充滿信心，並提醒我們您對正常季節性的看法是什麼，以便我們對此有一個參考。我正在尋找的是，無論是圍繞產品還是圍繞地理區域，這種信心的帳單是什麼樣的？

Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Normally, if you look historically, we've seen the normal seasonality if you compare between quarter 3 and quarter 4, that there is about 20%, 25% uptick between those two quarters. And this is how our customers usually buy from us, and also the delivery schedules are based on this.

是的，一點沒錯。謝謝。通常情況下，如果你回顧歷史，如果你比較第三季度和第四季度，我們會看到正常的季節性，這兩個季度之間大約有 20%、25% 的上漲。這就是我們的客戶通常從我們這裡購買的方式，交貨時間表也是以此為基礎的。

When it comes to this year, this is what we see right now that we have some regional differences as well. We have said that India is slowing down, just like we've said already in quarter 2 that we see that during the second half, we see more normalization in India. But then, of course, we see other customers and other regions as well that there is normal seasonality trend, and this is why we expect the quarter 4 to be an uptick. And of course, here as well, I just want to remind you that we have assumed that we will sign the agreements in the tech side, which are in the litigation right now.

說到今年，我們現在看到的是，我們也存在一些地區差異。我們說過印度正在放緩，就像我們在第二季度已經說過的那樣，我們看到下半年印度將更加正常化。但是，當然，我們也看到其他客戶和其他地區存在正常的季節性趨勢，這就是我們預計第四季度會出現成長的原因。當然，在這裡我也想提醒大家，我們已經假設我們將簽署技術方面的協議，這些協議目前正在訴訟中。

Do you have a follow-up, Simon?

西蒙，你有後續行動嗎？

Yes. Just maybe a quick follow-up and more just philosophically, does the increased BU autonomy imply in any way that the company is more open to the idea of either some divestitures or separation of any kind? Can people read that into this structure?

是的。也許只是一個快速的後續行動，更公正地說，從哲學角度來說，業務部門自主權的增加是否意味著該公司對某些資產剝離或任何形式的分離的想法持更開放的態度？人們可以將其解讀到這個結構中嗎？

Well, as I said, the purpose or the reason why we are doing that, i.e., increased autonomy to the businesses is really to accelerate our strategy execution, and we are removing any kind of remaining complexity in the organization, in the interface between the sales teams and the business units. So that is really the driver to create smaller autonomous units so that they would be able to, in a way, control their own destiny when it comes to the market expansion to non-CSP businesses entering into technology and other partnerships of their own without having to negotiate or coordinate always this with other businesses.

嗯，正如我所說，我們這樣做的目的或原因，即增加業務的自主權，實際上是為了加速我們的策略執行，並且我們正在消除組織中、組織之間的介面中任何剩餘的複雜性。銷售團隊和業務部門。因此，這確實是創建更小的自主單元的驅動力，這樣他們就能夠在某種程度上控制自己的命運，當涉及到非CSP 企業的市場擴張時，他們可以進入自己的技術和其他合作夥伴關係，而無需始終與其他企業進行談判或協調。

So this is really the driver in all this. But having said all this, I mean, we have said, if you remember our strategy pillar presentation from -- already from the Mobile World Congress Active portfolio management is one of our pillars, and it continues to be. So you have seen some moves earlier this year on RFS and then on the Cloud Infrastructure deal we made with Red Hat. And absolutely, these type of things will continue to be on the agenda also going forward.

所以這確實是這一切的驅動因素。但話雖如此，我的意思是，如果您還記得我們在世界行動大會上的策略支柱演講，我的意思是，我們已經說過，積極的投資組合管理是我們的支柱之一，而且仍然如此。今年早些時候，您已經看到了 RFS 方面的一些舉措，以及我們與紅帽達成的雲端基礎設施協議。當然，這些類型的事情也將繼續出現在未來的議程上。

And we'll take our next question from Daniel Djurberg from Handelsbanken.

我們將回答德國商業銀行的 Daniel Djurberg 提出的下一個問題。

My first question is a little bit on this -- if you can give us any preliminary restructuring charges needed to reach a new sales model and lowered employee base, both perhaps to the EUR 400 million that you expect for 2024, this EUR 295 million, I believe, non-restructuring charges or restructuring charges in Q3 and also if -- for the full -- close to EUR 1 billion mid-range of the total cost out that we should expect until 2026.

我的第一個問題與此有關——您是否可以向我們提供實現新的銷售模式和降低員工基礎所需的任何初步重組費用，可能都達到您預期的2024 年4 億歐元，即2.95 億歐元，我認為，第三季的非重組費用或重組費用以及我們預計到 2026 年的總成本接近 10 億歐元。

Thank you, Daniel. I just want to start with saying that when it comes to cost program -- cost out program and the organizational involvement that we are doing, those are two separate issues and not connected itself. So the reason for the reorganization when it comes to sales resources, this is not cost cutting. It is more to secure that we have the best customer interconnection and can serve customers in the best possible way.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。我只想先說，當談到成本計劃——成本計劃和我們正在進行的組織參與時，這是兩個獨立的問題，本身並沒有聯繫。所以在銷售資源方面進行重組的原因，並不是為了削減成本。更重要的是確保我們擁有最好的客戶互連，並且能夠以最好的方式為客戶提供服務。

When it comes to the cost-cutting program, just like we said, we estimate to have already EUR 400 million in in-year savings next year and EUR 300 million in '25. When it comes to the restructuring onetime charges and cash out, they will be close to the annual savings that we achieved. So those usually go hand in hand, and this is something we see as quite typical as well.

在成本削減計畫方面，正如我們所說，我們預計明年年內可節省 4 億歐元，25 年可節省 3 億歐元。當涉及重組一次性費用和現金支出時，它們將接近我們實現的年度節省。因此，這些通常是齊頭並進的，這也是我們認為非常典型的事情。

Did you have a follow up, Daniel?

丹尼爾，你有後續行動嗎？

I guess, some on the -- obviously, a sensitive matter, but still important given your outlook or -- on the guidance, the visibility into the IPR renewal outlook today versus a quarter ago given the outcome we've seen in various quarters rulings recently.

我想，顯然，這是一個敏感問題，但考慮到您的前景，但仍然很重要，或者考慮到我們在各個季度的裁決結果中看到的結果，今天與季度前的知識產權續展前景的可見性最近。

Yes. Just like you said, we've seen a very good development on different court outcomes that we've been on a winning side, and that's why we are very confident on the quality of our patents. And that's why we believe also that we should have a positive outcome in these dedications and negotiations that we have. And as we said that in our guidance for this year as well, we assume that we will finalize these negotiations with these two outstanding customers in the tech side. So this is pretty much what we can say right now. As you understand, the timing is always difficult to estimate. And we always said also that we prioritize defending the value of our portfolio over specific time lines.

是的。正如您所說，我們在不同的法庭結果中看到了非常好的進展，我們一直處於勝利的一方，這就是為什麼我們對我們的專利品質非常有信心。這就是為什麼我們也相信我們應該在這些努力和談判中取得積極成果。正如我們所說，在今年的指導中，我們假設我們將與這兩個技術方面的傑出客戶完成這些談判。所以這就是我們現在能說的。如您所知，時間總是很難估計。我們也總是說，我們優先考慮在特定時間範圍內捍衛我們投資組合的價值。

Thank you, Daniel. We'll take our next question from Felix Henriksson from Nordea.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。我們將回答來自 Nordea 的 Felix Henriksson 的下一個問題。

Regarding the cost savings and the headcount reductions that you've announced, I want to hear your thoughts on what are you sacrificing while taking these actions. Is there any implications for R&D, sales, et cetera? And sort of will you have to sort of accelerate recruitment again once the market sort of picks up and becomes more favorable?

關於您宣布的成本節約和裁員，我想聽聽您對採取這些行動時犧牲了什麼的想法。對研發、銷售等有什麼影響嗎？一旦市場回暖並變得更加有利，您是否必須再次加速招募？

Yes. Thank you, Felix. First of all, we are really making structural changes in the operating model and in the group structure in general with exactly the game that what we are now cutting would not automatically have to be recruited back when the market picks up, so we expect (inaudible) structural improvement of our cost base.

是的。謝謝你，菲利克斯。首先，我們確實正在對營運模式和集團結構進行結構性變革，而我們現在正在削減的內容在市場回暖時不會自動重新招募，所以我們預計（聽不清） ）我們的成本基礎的結構性改善。

What is important to keep in mind here is that when we are doing the reductions, we will always protect R&D output. There is, obviously, very interesting opportunities to improve R&D productivity through new technologies. We have already seen that in the right hands. For example, AI copilots are significantly improving the productivity of software development, for example. So there are opportunities in terms of R&D productivity, but we are clearly going to always defend our ability to deliver R&D output.

這裡要記住的重要一點是，當我們進行削減時，我們將始終保護研發產出。顯然，透過新技術提高研發生產力存在著非常有趣的機會。我們已經在正確的人手中看到了這一點。例如，人工智慧副駕駛正在顯著提高軟體開發的生產力。因此，在研發生產力方面存在機會，但我們顯然將始終捍衛我們提供研發產出的能力。

And when it comes to sales resources, obviously, the sales reorganization and simplification of the organization that we are now doing is providing some potential. But there, ultimately, the sales resources will be scaled in accordance with what we see in terms of opportunities on the market. And then when it comes to SG&A, that is clearly an additional source of savings that we are seeing, and it is a meaningful part of the overall potential in the program.

當談到銷售資源時，顯然，我們現在正在進行的銷售重組和組織簡化正在提供一些潛力。但最終，銷售資源將根據我們在市場上看到的機會進行調整。然後，當涉及 SG&A 時，這顯然是我們看到的額外節省來源，並且它是該計劃整體潛力的一個有意義的部分。

Thank you, Felix. Did you have a follow-up?

謝謝你，菲利克斯。你有後續行動嗎？

Yes. Yes, just a quick one regarding the market demand. So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on whether or not you actually think that the market can turn for the better without sort of these killer apps that can actually improve 5G monetization for your telecom customers or because it sounds like that the current sort of headwinds that you're facing are perhaps also going beyond the inventory corrections and the macro slowdown that we see.

是的。是的，只是簡單介紹一下市場需求。所以我只是想聽聽您的想法，您是否真的認為市場可以在沒有這些殺手級應用程式的情況下變得更好，這些應用程式實際上可以提高電信客戶的5G 貨幣化水平，或者因為聽起來目前的逆風您所面臨的問題可能也超出了我們所看到的庫存調整和宏觀經濟放緩的範圍。

Yes. I mean this is obviously one of the most important interesting questions for the whole industry going forward because a key reason why operators have been hesitant with their investments has been that their 5G monetization has been slower than expected. And the reason for that has been that it has been difficult for them to introduce new applications that would take advantage of the capabilities of 5G.

是的。我的意思是，這顯然是整個行業未來最重要、最有趣的問題之一，因為營運商對其投資猶豫不決的一個關鍵原因是他們的 5G 貨幣化速度慢於預期。原因是他們很難推出利用 5G 功能的新應用程式。

And what we really need is, first of all, in the Network Infrastructure, we need a stand-alone core with capabilities like slicing. We need more capacity in the radio interface, which is to be achieved through 5G mid-band. But then very importantly, we need to make the network more programmable so that it's easier and faster and less costly for application developers to bring new use cases to the market. And this is where the Network as Code platform that we introduced to the market during Q3 comes in. It is a platform that includes a set of APIs with the goal to make the network programmable.

而我們真正需要的是，首先在網路基礎設施中，我們需要一個獨立的核心，具有切片等能力。我們需要更多的無線電介面容量，這將透過 5G 中頻段來實現。但非常重要的是，我們需要使網路更加可編程，以便應用程式開發人員能夠更輕鬆、更快速、更低成本地將新用例推向市場。這就是我們在第三季度向市場推出的網路即代碼平台的用武之地。它是一個包含一組 API 的平台，其目標是使網路可編程。

And what I do want to emphasize is that we have developed this organically within that R&D budget that we have. We have excellent feedback from customers. We have significant traction from the market. We have four -- as I mentioned, we have four deals already, and there is clearly more in the pipeline. And this is one of the key focus areas that we will be delivering more information in Raghav presentation in the December investor event.

我確實想強調的是，我們是在我們擁有的研發預算範圍內有機地開發了這一點。我們從客戶那裡得到了很好的回饋。我們擁有來自市場的巨大吸引力。我們有四筆交易——正如我所提到的，我們已經有四筆交易，而且顯然還有更多交易正在醞釀中。這是我們將在 12 月投資者活動的 Raghav 演講中提供更多資訊的關鍵重點領域之一。

Thank you, Felix. We'll take our next question from Richard Kramer from Arete.

謝謝你，菲利克斯。我們將回答來自 Arete 的 Richard Kramer 的下一個問題。

Pekka, the first question is you have this infrastructure progress update this summer, which highlighted that you were coming into new product cycles and IP routing and optics as well as looking forward to big U.S. government funding projects and fixed. Are you now seeing that infrastructure is no longer driven by product cycles as it was before? And can you give us an update on where the hyperscaler wins that we've long hoped Nokia would be able to deliver where you are on realizing those?

Pekka，第一個問題是，今年夏天您進行了基礎設施進度更新，其中強調您正在進入新的產品週期、IP 路由和光學器件，並期待美國政府的大型資助項目和修復。現在您發現基礎架構不再像以前那樣由產品週期驅動？您能否向我們介紹超大規模企業在哪些方面獲勝的最新情況，我們長期以來希望諾基亞能夠實現您在實現這些方面的目標？

Well, we are working on several hyperscale opportunities right now. But as of today, there are no new news. Hopefully, there would be soon. So that remains to be an attractive opportunity.

嗯，我們現在正在研究幾個超大規模的機會。但截至今日，還沒有新的消息。希望很快就會有。因此，這仍然是一個有吸引力的機會。

In general, when we talk about Network Infrastructure, and I guess, especially the network architectures and the product cycles in routing and optical, and then I comment fixed access as well. But there is obviously now with the new technology cycles, including what we are delivering in routing through FP5 and the 800 gigabit services and then the optical platform, PSE-V, the combination of these two is enabling completely new network architectures in the metro and regional networks where the key driver is really a new generation of 400 and 800 gigabit services. We are, of course, trialing already 1.2 terabits per second. We are able to deliver it. We are able to deliver 800 gigabit services over 2,000 kilometers, which is a real technology leadership position in the whole world.

總的來說，當我們談論網路基礎設施時，我想，尤其是網路架構以及路由和光纖方面的產品週期，然後我也會評論固定接入。但顯然現在有了新技術週期，包括我們透過 FP5 和 800 Gb 服務以及光學平台 PSE-V 提供的路由，這兩者的結合正在城域網和區域網路的關鍵驅動力實際上是新一代400 和800 千兆位元服務。當然，我們已經在嘗試每秒 1.2 太比特。我們有能力交付。我們能夠提供超過2000公里的800千兆服務，這在全球範圍內是真正的技術領先地位。

These are the drivers that are pushing network architectures to new boundaries, and we see no slowdown in this type of -- kind of product-driven or architectural development evolution of the networks. You saw that the Optical Network business in terms of volumes has been more resilient than the other businesses. So this is all good. But at the same time, obviously, these are taking a very critical look on their investments also in this area because of the macroeconomic situation. But our relative position here is pretty strong.

這些都是將網路架構推向新邊界的驅動因素，我們認為這種產品驅動或網路架構開發的發展並沒有放緩。您看到光網絡業務在數量方面比其他業務更具彈性。所以這一切都很好。但同時，顯然，由於宏觀經濟情勢，這些公司也對這領域的投資採取了非常嚴格的態度。但我們在這裡的相對地位相當強大。

Then in terms of fixed access, obviously, the comparables are pretty tough now because we had substantial growth in that business, both in '21 and '22. When we get into '24, we do expect to start getting support from government-funded programs, especially the BEAD program in the U.S., the EUR 42 billion high-speed Internet grant program, where we estimate that our accessible market is about 10% of that. We have -- since the announcement in July where we announced that we would be starting manufacturing that would be in compliance with the Buy America requirements. We have had significant traction from several service providers, including Tier 2 and Tier 3 service providers that will be making investments and getting funding from the BEAD initiative. So this will start coming gradually during 2024.

然後就固定接入而言，顯然，現在的可比性相當艱難，因為我們在該業務上在 21 年和 22 年都取得了大幅增長。當我們進入 24 世紀時，我們確實期望開始獲得政府資助計劃的支持，特別是美國的 BEAD 計劃，即 420 億歐元的高速互聯網撥款計劃，我們估計我們的可訪問市場約為 10%的。自 7 月宣布我們將開始符合「購買美國貨」要求的生產以來，我們已經這樣做了。我們受到了多家服務提供者的大力關注，其中包括將進行投資並從 BEAD 計劃中獲得資金的 2 級和 3 級服務提供者。因此，這將在 2024 年開始逐步實現。

In general, when we talk about the demand for Network Infrastructure, there is, here and there, interesting evidence that hopefully we would now be through the low point in terms of demand in Q3 in terms of new orders. And we would expect that, gradually, the market will start recovering. But again, it is too early to call it a broad-based recovery, but we are seeing signs here and there. So that's why we definitely continue to believe in the potential of Network Infrastructure.

總的來說，當我們談論網路基礎設施的需求時，到處都有有趣的證據表明，希望我們現在能夠度過第三季新訂單需求的低點。我們預計市場將逐漸開始復甦。但同樣，現在稱其為廣泛基礎的復甦還為時過早，但我們到處都看到了跡象。這就是為什麼我們絕對繼續相信網路基礎設施的潛力。

And maybe a quick one for Marco. A quick follow-up for Marco. Just so we can understand it, does the rise of reaching 10% of Enterprise sales within the mix, does that have a near-term dilutive or positive impact on margins given you obviously are expanding your product portfolio there and you need to do your sort of go-to-market model, but at the same time, Enterprise historically has had very healthy margins?

也許對馬可來說是一個快速的。 Marco 的快速跟進。正如我們可以理解的那樣，考慮到您顯然正在擴大您的產品組合，並且您需要進行排序，那麼在組合中達到企業銷售額 10% 的增長是否會對利潤率產生短期稀釋或積極影響進入市場模式，但同時，Enterprise 歷來擁有非常健康的利潤率？

Yes. Thank you for the question. We haven't specified the margin in Enterprise side. But as we said that we believe in this sector very heavily and our ambitions is to grow in this sector, and this is one of our strategic pillars as well at the group level that we believe that this will create new opportunities, just like Pekka mentioned already in Network Infrastructure side.

是的。感謝你的提問。我們還沒有指定企業端的保證金。但正如我們所說，我們非常相信這個領域，我們的目標是在這個領域發展，這是我們的戰略支柱之一，也是集團層面的，我們相信這將創造新的機會，就像佩卡提到的那樣已經在網路基礎設施方面。

In IP side, we have increasingly introducing new offerings to our customers in the webscale side, where we are still quite small. And this gives -- beyond the more normal market development, this gives the new opportunities for growth in NI as well.

在 IP 方面，我們越來越多地向網路規模方面的客戶推出新產品，而我們在這方面的規模仍然很小。除了更正常的市場發展之外，這也為 NI 的成長提供了新的機會。

Thank you, Richard. We'll take our next question from Andrew Gardiner from Citi.

謝謝你，理查。我們將接受花旗銀行安德魯·加德納 (Andrew Gardiner) 提出的下一個問題。

I just wanted to come back to the seasonality you're calling out in the fourth quarter. I mean, Marco, you described the normal seasonality, I think, in particular, with reference to Mobile Networks and Network Infrastructure, low to mid-20% sequential. But at the same time, you're also telling us that India is off the peak and volumes are coming down, so that is a headwind or a loss in equal. And I think Pekka, you mentioned as well that there's still some impact from the inventory cycle in the fourth quarter. So what would be offsetting those two headwinds to get you to a more normal level of seasonality in the fourth quarter?

我只是想回到你在第四季提到的季節性。我的意思是，Marco，您描述了正常的季節性，我認為，特別是在行動網路和網路基礎設施方面，環比低至中 20%。但同時，你也告訴我們，印度已經脫離了高峰，銷量正在下降，所以這是一個逆風或同樣的損失。我想佩卡，您也提到第四季的庫存週期仍然存在一些影響。那麼，什麼可以抵消這兩個不利因素，讓您在第四季度達到更正常的季節性水平？

Yes. As I said, we see different areas in different customers that their plans are that we see potential increase in quarter 4, and this is how we have based our forecast as well. And we've seen that when we gave the quarter 2 report as well that the second half would be more skewed towards the quarter 4, and quarter 3 would be a lower one. And this is exactly how we've seen the development so far. So this is where we have based our assumptions in our forecast for quarter 4 as well.

是的。正如我所說，我們看到不同客戶的不同領域，他們的計劃是我們看到第四季度的潛在成長，這也是我們預測的基礎。我們已經看到，當我們提供第二季報告時，下半年的情況會更偏向第四季度，而第三季的情況會更低。這正是我們迄今為止所看到的發展。因此，這也是我們對第四季預測的假設基礎。

Is it possible to help us a little bit in terms of in the region or two that might be a little bit better than normal as a result of that? And just obviously, we've had your competitor, Ericsson, earlier this week, and I fully take your point that the phasing through the year for the different operators and different vendors is going to be a little bit different depending on exactly what you're doing for them and where in the country. But just it would be helpful to understand where you might be seeing a better trend in the fourth quarter.

是否有可能在比正常情況更好的一兩個地區為我們提供一點幫助？顯然，本週早些時候我們已經有了你的競爭對手愛立信，我完全同意你的觀點，即不同運營商和不同供應商在這一年中的分階段將會略有不同，具體取決於你的具體情況。我們正在為他們做些什麼以及在這個國家的什麼地方。但了解第四季度哪些地方可能會出現更好的趨勢將會很有幫助。

We haven't given any specific guidance on this. But if you look at different businesses as well and how they performed in quarter 3, and Pekka alluded to this as well that we believe, for example, that in NI side and Network Infrastructure side, that we perhaps have seen the low point now. And there seems to be some signs of improvement on the market as well.

我們還沒有對此給出任何具體指導。但如果你看看不同的業務以及它們在第三季度的表現，Pekka 也提到了這一點，我們相信，例如，在 NI 方面和網路基礎設施方面，我們現在可能已經看到了低點。市場似乎也出現了一些改善的跡象。

And then, of course, to be added maybe. It's obvious but, of course, in Cloud and Network Services business, we are again expecting a seasonally big quarter in Q4. And then in the forecast, there is, of course, for the Technologies business, the assumption that we close the ongoing negotiations with OPPO and Vivo.

然後，當然，也許會添加。這是顯而易見的，但當然，在雲端和網路服務業務中，我們再次預期第四季將出現季節性大季度。當然，在預測中，對於技術業務，假設我們結束與 OPPO 和 Vivo 正在進行的談判。

On India, maybe one comment. Our India business last year was EUR 1.3 billion. And now we have, year-to-date, EUR 2.5 billion. There was a big sequential drop in Q3 compared to Q2. So now we are getting to levels which would be closer to what we said earlier that, in a way, the new normal run rate when we then look into '24 and '25 would be somewhere between the EUR 1.3 billion in 2022 and wherever we will end this year. So this is something that is important to keep in mind in terms of India. So there was already a big sequential drop between Q2 and Q3.

關於印度，也許有一則評論。去年我們的印度業務達到 13 億歐元。今年迄今為止，我們已經擁有 25 億歐元。與第二季相比，第三季季減。因此，現在我們正在達到的水平更接近我們之前所說的水平，在某種程度上，當我們研究「24」和「25」時，新的正常運行率將在2022 年的13 億歐元之間，無論我們在哪裡將於今年結束。因此，對於印度來說，這一點值得牢記。因此，第二季和第三季之間已經出現了大幅連續下降。

Thank you, Andrew. We'll take our next question from Sandeep Deshpande from JPMorgan.

謝謝你，安德魯。我們將回答摩根大通的桑迪普·德什潘德 (Sandeep Deshpande) 提出的下一個問題。

I'm trying to understand actually now going into 2024, clearly, you are adjusting your cost base as well. But on the top line, I mean, if the U.S. doesn't show signs of significant recovery and India, as Pekka just mentioned, is going to be between '22 and '23, so it's going to be down from '23, then unless something else is going to kick in on a full year basis, Nokia could see quite a big drop in revenues as such really. So I mean maybe you can help us understand how you are thinking of that. Clearly, you're not giving any guidance for how you're thinking of '24 at this point, as such really. And I have a quick follow-up on the costs.

我實際上正在嘗試了解，進入 2024 年，顯然，您也在調整您的成本基礎。但在最重要的方面，我的意思是，如果美國沒有顯示出顯著復甦的跡象，而印度，正如佩卡剛才提到的，將處於 22 至 23 年間，所以它會比 23 下降，那麼除非全年出現其他情況，否則諾基亞的收入可能會出現相當大的下降。所以我的意思是也許你可以幫助我們了解你的想法。顯然，您目前並沒有就您如何看待“24”提供任何指導，實際上是這樣。我對成本進行了快速跟進。

As you understand, it is too early to provide a full view on '24. However, the macroeconomic environment clearly remains the key factor as we head into next year. We do not know where the market will take us in '24. I mentioned some early positive signs, especially in the Network Infrastructure business that could start providing support in 2024, but the reality is that there are so many macro uncertainties out there that we simply should not assume that we get a lot of support from the market next year, and that is why we are now taking decisive actions on cost. So we believe that this is a win-win. If then there is a fast recovery on the market and we have taken cost action, then it's even better. But we want to be in a position to get to that 14% comparable operating margin by 2026, also in a scenario where there would not be a fast significant market recovery. That is the point here.

如您所知，現在提供 24 週年的全面視圖還為時過早。然而，進入明年，宏觀經濟環境顯然仍是關鍵因素。我們不知道 24 年市場將帶我們走向何方。我提到了一些早期的積極跡象，特別是在網路基礎設施業務方面，可能會在2024 年開始提供支持，但現實是，宏觀不確定性如此之多，我們根本不應該假設我們從市場獲得了很多支持明年，這就是為什麼我們現在在成本方面採取果斷行動的原因。所以我們相信這是雙贏的。如果市場快速復甦並且我們採取了成本行動，那就更好了。但我們希望到 2026 年能夠達到 14% 的可比營業利潤率，即使在市場不會快速大幅復甦的情況下也是如此。這就是重點。

I mean on your costs, just my quick follow-up is on your cost position. In terms of what you've announced in terms of cost reductions and what we've seen in the most recent quarter, I mean your sales fell very substantially short in the third quarter, but your gross margin wasn't that bad. It was quite good. I mean, maybe in that respect, where are the costs could be taken out? Is it mainly in the OpEx that you're taking out cost because the problems don't seem to be on your gross margin line. There seems to be -- I mean, so maybe you're removing costs into the future because you think that your overall cost -- operating cost base is too high.

我的意思是關於您的成本，我的快速跟進是關於您的成本狀況。就您宣布的成本削減以及我們在最近一個季度看到的情況而言，我的意思是您的銷售額在第三季度大幅下降，但您的毛利率並沒有那麼糟糕。非常好。我的意思是，也許在這方面，成本可以從哪裡扣除？您主要是在營運支出中扣除成本，因為問題似乎不在您的毛利率線上。我的意思是，也許你正在消除未來的成本，因為你認為你的整體成本——營運成本基礎太高了。

Yes. Thank you. Yes, we actually -- in the plans that we have now for the cost-cutting program, we aim to cut about 70% from -- is coming from the OpEx side and 30% is coming from above gross profit side, so cost of goods sold. So this is the split that we are aiming to do. Saying that, I want to emphasis once again that our aim is to protect the R&D capacity so that we will continue to aim for technology leadership position in the future as well. That's why it's so important the R&D capacity projection.

是的。謝謝。是的，我們實際上 - 在我們現在的成本削減計劃中，我們的目標是削減約 70％ - 來自運營支出方面，30％ 來自以上毛利潤方面，因此成本商品已售出。這就是我們想要進行的拆分。說到這裡，我想再次強調，我們的目標是保護研發能力，以便我們在未來繼續爭取技術領先地位。這就是為什麼研發能力預測如此重要的原因。

And that obviously has a connection -- direct connections to the product technology competitiveness. And your observation of the gross margin is excellent because our technology position, product competitiveness, as I said, improved a lot in the last couple of years. And that is now, of course, extremely important when we aim to defend our gross margin also in weaker times.

這顯然與產品技術競爭力有直接關聯。您對毛利率的觀察非常好，因為正如我所說，我們的技術地位和產品競爭力在過去幾年中得到了很大提高。當然，當我們的目標是在經濟疲軟時期捍衛我們的毛利率時，這現在極為重要。

Thank you, Sandeep. We'll take our next question from Francois Bouvignies from UBS.

謝謝你，桑迪普。我們將回答瑞銀集團 Francois Bouvignies 提出的下一個問題。

I wanted to come back, I'm afraid, on the cost side. So I understand that the industry is going to a slowdown that maybe takes more time than you expected and maybe a bit deeper. But the magnitude strikes me a little bit because you can do cost savings, but it's not because of you have 1-year delay that you are just 10% to 15% of your workforce. I would imagine it's a very important strategic decisions also on top of your realignment or reorganization, I should say. So you talked about the fundamentals unchanged, you still believe in it and the data growth is one that you mentioned as an example, but yet your top line is not and you said that the operators are struggling to monetize this data growth anyway. So I'm just wondering is, given the magnitude of this cost savings, what literally changed beyond the timing element? Because it seems that it's much deeper than just a timing issue, if you see what I mean.

恐怕，我想在成本方面回來。所以我知道這個行業將會放緩，這可能需要比你預期更多的時間，而且可能會更深一些。但這幅度讓我有點震驚，因為你可以節省成本，但這並不是因為你有 1 年的延遲，你只是你的勞動力的 10% 到 15%。我應該說，我認為這是一個非常重要的策略決策，除了您的調整或重組之外。所以你談到基本面沒有改變，你仍然相信它，數據增長是你提到的一個例子，但你的頂線不是，你說運營商無論如何都在努力將這種數據增長貨幣化。所以我只是想知道，考慮到成本節省的幅度，除了計時元素之外，還有什麼真正的變化？因為如果你明白我的意思的話，這似乎比時間問題要深刻得多。

And the second question I had is a bit more on the technology side of things. Can you maybe tell us 6G should we expect 6G at some point? If yes, when? And the impact of open line and an update on open line, if it's impacting your business at all right now.

我的第二個問題更多的是技術方面的問題。您能否告訴我們 6G 我們是否應該在某個時候期待 6G？如果是，什麼時候？以及開放線路的影響和開放線路的更新（如果它現在正在影響您的業務）。

Okay. All right. Well, what I would, first of all, like to note is that the -- there is a reason why we gave a range and not a definitive number in terms of the cost reduction. So 10% to 15%, that is a wide range, and that will depend exactly on the timing and the shape of the market recovery because we know that it will come. It is a question of timing. It may sound a lot, but we believe it's doable without sacrificing the R&D output as said. You have to remember that our most important market from a profitability point of view is the North American market, and now we have two quarters behind us where we have 40% drop in top line. And when we look at the operator plans there, we know that there will be a recovery. But again, we do not know when it will come. And I'm not sure if the operators themselves either understand yet or know yet when they will start increasing their investments again.

好的。好的。嗯，首先，我想指出的是，我們在成本降低方面給出了一個範圍，而不是一個明確的數字，這是有原因的。所以 10% 到 15%，這是一個很大的範圍，這將完全取決於市場復甦的時間和形式，因為我們知道它會到來。這是一個時間問題。這聽起來可能很多，但我們相信在不犧牲研發產出的情況下這是可行的。你必須記住，從獲利角度來看，我們最重要的市場是北美市場，現在我們已經落後兩個季度了，我們的營收下降了 40%。當我們查看那裡的運營商計劃時，我們知道將會出現復甦。但同樣，我們不知道它什麼時候會到來。我不確定運營商本身是否已經了解或知道何時會再次開始增加投資。

So this is all only -- I mean the question is simply being prepared. If then there is a fast recovery, then it's super good. We have lower cost and then we get the benefits of a recovery. But we feel that it's better now in this situation where there is so much uncertainty to, in a way, go all in. And then it's always easier to take then a step back if, for some reason, you have cut too much somewhere. But we believe that this, at least 10%, is fully doable without sacrificing some of the most important things, which are -- which definitely is R&D output.

所以這只是——我的意思是問題只是在準備中。如果恢復得快的話，那就太好了。我們的成本較低，然後我們就能獲得復甦的好處。但我們認為，在這種情況下，在某種程度上，全力以赴的不確定性會更好。如果出於某種原因，你在某個地方削減了太多，那麼後退一步總是更容易。但我們相信，在不犧牲一些最重要的事情的情況下，這至少 10% 是完全可行的，這些事情絕對是研發產出。

Then your second question, the timing of 6G. I mean there's obviously a lot of discussions now within the operator community that how that game should be played because they are all now thinking that how do I monetize 5G. They have been disappointed on their own ability to monetize 5G, and then there is the weak economy and high interest rates and so on. I mean the base case continues to be that 5G would start -- sorry, 6G would start delivering around '29 and then maybe volumes in 2030. So there would be roughly 10-year difference between 5G and 6G. This is still uncertain. There could be changes, but this is the base case we are working against.

那麼你的第二個問題，6G的時機。我的意思是，運營商社群現在顯然有很多關於應該如何玩這個遊戲的討論，因為他們現在都在思考如何透過 5G 貨幣化。他們對自己的5G貨幣化能力感到失望，然後還有經濟疲軟和高利率等等。我的意思是，基本情況仍然是 5G 將啟動 - 抱歉，6G 將在 29 年左右開始交付，然後可能在 2030 年實現批量交付。因此，5G 和 6G 之間大約有 10 年的差異。這仍然是不確定的。可能會有變化，但這是我們正在努力的基本情況。

I don't actually think that the number of 5 or 6 is the most important thing. The most important thing is that what will the applications be and what will they demand. If we expect that the data traffic will continue to grow 20% to 30% per year and then, little by little, we will start seeing completely new types of use cases, for example, driven by augmented reality, various types of immersive use cases for consumers, for video conferencing, for industrial applications and so on and so on. There's a lot like this in the pipeline.

我其實不認為5或6的數量是最重要的。最重要的是應用程式是什麼以及它們的需求是什麼。如果我們預計資料流量將繼續每年增長 20% 到 30%，然後一點一點地，我們將開始看到全新類型的用例，例如，由擴增實境驅動的各種類型的沉浸式用例對於消費者、視訊會議、工業應用等等。類似的事情還有很多。

And you have seen the Apple announcement on the AR device. We believe that there will be a race where there will be a lot of new devices driving bandwidth usage in the coming years. If that happens, we are looking at somewhere around '26, 27, '28 when most of the 5G frequencies will have been exhausted, which means that new frequencies for new capacities will be needed. They must be allocated. And once that is done, very important thing for everybody, including operators and consumers, will be the cost of that bandwidth, how do we make sure that we deliver the services as cost efficiently and with as little power consumption as possible. And that will require new generations of silicon. It will require new innovations in terms of massive MIMO in the radio interface.

你已經看到了蘋果關於 AR 設備的公告。我們相信，未來幾年將會出現大量新設備推動頻寬使用的競賽。如果發生這種情況，我們預計在 26 年、27 年、28 年左右，屆時大部分 5G 頻率將被耗盡，這意味著將需要新的頻率來支援新的容量。必須對它們進行分配。一旦完成，對每個人（包括營運商和消費者）來說非常重要的事情將是頻寬的成本，我們如何確保我們以盡可能低的功耗和成本效益提供服務。這將需要新一代的矽。無線介面中的大規模 MIMO 需要新的創新。

If you want to call that 6G, fine. But I don't think that matters. The driver is really what the new applications will need. And there, our expectation again is that when we get to '27, '28, the capabilities of 5G will gradually start to be exhausted and something new will be needed.

如果你想稱之為6G，沒問題。但我認為這並不重要。驅動程式確實是新應用程式所需要的。我們再次預計，當我們到 27、28 年時，5G 的功能將逐漸開始耗盡，需要新的東西。

Thank you, Francois. We'll take our next question, Sébastien Sztabowicz from Kepler Cheuvreux.

謝謝你，弗朗索瓦。我們將接受下一個問題，來自 Kepler Cheuvreux 的 Sébastien Sztabowicz。

On fixed broadband access, some new analysts are now targeting roughly stable market development for the next five years. And you have been historically quite conservative or positive on the growth prospect for fiber going forward. Have you seen any major change in market dynamics on fixed broadband access. That would be my first question.

在固定寬頻接取方面，一些新的分析師現在的目標是未來五年市場大致穩定發展。從歷史上看，您對纖維未來的成長前景一直相當保守或樂觀。您是否看到固定寬頻接取市場動態有任何重大變化？這是我的第一個問題。

The second one is on the mix for next year. How do you see the mix evolving moving into 2024? And what could be the different moving parts to your gross margin moving into 2024?

第二個是明年的組合。您如何看待 2024 年的混合發展？到 2024 年，您的毛利率可能會發生哪些不同的變化？

Was this question -- I had a little bit difficult to hear all the points. So was this about Fixed Networks and the phone market?

這個問題是──我有點難以聽清楚所有要點。這是關於固定網路和電話市場的嗎？

Yes, Fixed Network and the outlook for Fixed Network for the coming years.

是的，固定網路以及未來幾年固定網路的前景。

Yes, yes. I mean, we continue to believe in a highly favorable outlook for Fixed Networks because if you look at, for example, the stats that we gave in the Q2 report as to how many percent of the world's homes have been fast or connected, we are still looking at pretty low numbers. And then we have to remember that already those homes, which are connected today, they will be subject to capacity upgrades. And all of this will be further supported by the various government programs like the U.S. program that we discussed where the goal of the government is to have a gigabit service in every home.

是的是的。我的意思是，我們仍然相信固定網路的前景非常樂觀，因為如果你看看我們在第二季報告中提供的關於世界上有多少家庭已經實現快速或連網的統計數據，我們就會發現仍然看到相當低的數字。然後我們必須記住，今天已經連網的那些家庭將需要進行容量升級。所有這一切都將得到各種政府計劃的進一步支持，例如我們討論的美國計劃，政府的目標是在每個家庭中提供千兆位服務。

So we believe that this will be a highly attractive market going forward despite the short-term slowness. We are #1 in GPON globally with more than 40% market share in GPON OLTs. We have 46% market share in XGS-PON, which is the latest generation of 10 gigabit symmetrical GPON, which is used in about 95% of the next generation on deployments. And we have clear technology leader in this segment. So this is a perfect example of a market now where there is a lot of long-term potential combined and also mid-term potential combined with a strong technology leadership position. So we continue to be pretty bullish on -- in terms of the potential of the fixed markets.

因此，我們相信，儘管短期放緩，但未來這將是一個極具吸引力的市場。我們在全球 GPON 領域排名第一，在 GPON OLT 領域擁有超過 40% 的市佔率。我們在 XGS-PON 方面擁有 46% 的市場份額，這是最新一代的 10 Gb 對稱 GPON，大約 95% 的下一代部署都使用該技術。我們在這一領域擁有明顯的技術領先地位。因此，這是一個完美的例子，說明現在的市場既有大量的長期潛力，也有中期潛力，同時擁有強大的技術領先地位。因此，就固定市場的潛力而言，我們仍然非常看好。

Thank you, Sébastien. We'll take our next question from Sami Sarkamies from Danske Bank.

謝謝你，賽巴斯蒂安。我們將接受丹麥銀行 Sami Sarkamies 提出的下一個問題。

I wanted to follow up the earlier question by Sandeep regarding puts and takes going into next year. I think you already covered the top line. That is obviously the big unknown. But if we focus on things that you can control, what should we think about OpEx next year? I guess given the new cost program that has been announced, it shouldn't at least be higher than this year.

我想跟進桑迪普先前提出的關於明年的投入和投入的問題。我認為您已經涵蓋了頂線。這顯然是一個巨大的未知數。但如果我們專注於您可以控制的事情，那麼明年我們應該如何看待營運支出？我想鑑於已經宣布的新成本計劃，它不應該至少高於今年。

And then if we think about gross margins, I guess, those should also be higher next year as you'll probably benefit from normalization of geographic mix. And then there will be also cost measures impacting COGS.

然後，如果我們考慮毛利率，我想，明年的毛利率也應該更高，因為您可能會從地理組合的正常化中受益。此外，還會影響銷貨成本的成本措施。

Yes. Thank you, Sami. What comes to '24, of course, because of the uncertainty, we don't guide '24 yet. But if we look at the different elements of your question regarding cost saving programs, so like we said, we -- ambition is that we get already in-year savings of EUR 400 million in '24. And also, we said that about 70% of the total savings in the program will come from OpEx, and this is our planning right now when it comes to '24.

是的。謝謝你，薩米。當然，由於不確定性，「24」會發生什麼，我們還沒有指導「24」。但是，如果我們看看您關於成本節約計劃的問題的不同要素，那麼就像我們所說的那樣，我們的目標是在 2024 年實現年內節省 4 億歐元。而且，我們說該計劃中大約 70% 的總節省將來自營運支出，這是我們目前在 '24 時的規劃。

Then when it comes to exactly development on gross margin levels, partly it depends on the mix as well, both product mix, but also regional mix and then also how the market recovery is happening and what is the speed and when we will see in different parts as the market recovery most likely will not be perhaps exactly the same for all our segments that we have. Then we have to also remember that in 2023, we have received savings also from the variable pay that we have in the company.

然後，當涉及毛利率水準的具體發展時，部分也取決於組合，既包括產品組合，也取決於區域組合，然後還有市場復甦的方式、速度以及我們何時會看到不同的情況。因為我們擁有的所有細分市場的市場復甦很可能不會完全相同。然後我們還必須記住，到 2023 年，我們也從公司的浮動薪酬中獲得了節省。

Sami, did you have a follow-up?

薩米，你有後續嗎？

Yes. Regarding the cost savings program, just curious how material contribution could we see from divestments in you reaching the lower cost base.

是的。關於成本節約計劃，只是好奇我們如何從您的撤資中看到物質貢獻，以達到較低的成本基礎。

Well, of course, what we are communicating in terms of cost would be not including any effects from divestments that we would potentially do in the future. So this is on a like -- on a comparable basis.

當然，我們在成本方面所傳達的內容不包括我們未來可能進行的撤資所產生的任何影響。所以這是在類似的基礎上進行的。

Thank you, Sami. We'll take our last question from Didier Scemama from Bank of America.

謝謝你，薩米。我們將回答美國銀行的 Didier Scemama 的最後一個問題。

I guess most of my questions have been asked. What I wondered, clearly, you're taking very decisive actions on the cost base, I think, realizing that the RAN market is probably going to be in a downturn for the next several years and especially as 6G is quite far away. What I wondered is, are there any other sort of strategic alternatives you are considering for the business? I think Simon asked the question earlier, whether you're considering a breakup of the business to give more autonomies to your divisions, et cetera, because it feels like it's not going to be fun to just cut costs for the next several years.

我想我的大部分問題都被問到了。我想知道的是，很明顯，你們在成本基礎上採取了非常果斷的行動，我認為，你們意識到 RAN 市場可能會在未來幾年內陷入低迷，尤其是在 6G 還很遙遠的情況下。我想知道的是，您是否正在考慮為該業務採取其他策略選擇？我想西蒙之前問過這個問題，你是否正在考慮拆分業務，以便給你的部門更多的自主權，等等，因為感覺僅僅削減未來幾年的成本不會很有趣。

No, you are absolutely right. You cannot run a business if your only strategy is to cut costs. But I want to repeat what I said earlier that when we are cutting costs, what is really important for us is that we do not sacrifice our R&D output because, otherwise, it would be just downsizing and downsizing and downsizing.

不，你說得完全正確。如果你唯一的策略是削減成本，你就無法經營一家企業。但我想重複我之前說過的，當我們削減成本時，對我們來說真正重要的是我們不要犧牲我們的研發產出，因為否則，這只是縮小規模、縮小規模、再縮小規模。

When it comes to the question of structural moves like what as you said, splitting that company, I already answered that what we are going to continue with is optimization of our portfolio, and that is one of our strategic pillars. You have seen some moves already, and we are not excluding that there would be additional moves going forward. It is part of our strategy, as we announced already in Barcelona.

當談到你所說的拆分公司等結構性舉措的問題時，我已經回答過，我們將繼續優化我們的投資組合，這是我們的策略支柱之一。您已經看到了一些舉措，我們不排除未來還會有更多舉措。正如我們已經在巴塞隆納宣布的那樣，這是我們策略的一部分。

But then I would like to slightly disagree with you that when you kind of concluded that the RAN market will be a declining market all the way until 6G, we do not agree. 25% of base stations outside of China are currently 5G mid-band upgraded, which means that 75% of that potential is still there. If and when the data traffic will continue to grow, operators will have to start investing again.

但我想稍微不同意你的觀點，當你得出 RAN 市場將一直下降到 6G 之前的結論時，我們不同意。目前，中國境外25%的基地台已進行5G中頻升級，這意味著75%的潛力仍然存在。如果數據流量持續成長，營運商將不得不再次開始投資。

In a couple of years' time, 5G advanced will hit the market providing some significant additional new capabilities for new use cases, such as digital wins, drones, immersive applications, AR and so on. Roughly at the same time comes the time when the first 5G installations that we made in 2019, 2020 will hit the mid-generation upgrade cycle as we have seen in the previous cycles as well. And the technology has improved so much from 2019, 2020, especially in terms of power consumption. But given the high power prices and ESG that most operators now have, we believe that there will be significant upgrade opportunities in mid-generation as well. So -- and then on top of this comes all the potential from private 5G and then the price and all the use cases. So respectfully, I would disagree with you that this will be a declining market all the way until 6G.

幾年後，5G 先進技術將推出市場，為新用例提供一些重要的附加新功能，例如數位勝利、無人機、沉浸式應用程式、AR 等。大約在同一時間，我們在 2019 年和 2020 年安裝的首批 5G 設備將進入中期升級週期，正如我們在先前的周期中看到的那樣。而且科技比2019年、2020年有了很大的進步，特別是在功耗方面。但考慮到大多數營運商目前面臨的高電價和 ESG，我們相信中世代也將有重大升級機會。因此，除此之外，還有私有 5G 的所有潛力、價格和所有用例。因此，恕我直言，我不同意您的觀點，即在 6G 之前，市場將一直下滑。

I mean, respectfully also, I mean, if you look at -- when you look at the transition from 4G to 5G, we had, I think, 3 years of downturn and I think it was all about cost cutting during that period. It was pretty painful. Also looking at the history of Nokia and Alcatel-Lucent has been consistent cost cutting over the course of the last 15 years or so. It's been quite difficult. And the promises of things like LTE Advanced or 4.5G have not materialized. And as you said yourself, the problem fundamentally is that although 5G was great from a cost per bit standpoint for the operators, they have not been able to monetize their investments with higher ARPU, higher EBITDA. So ultimately, it's got a knock-on effect on the ability to invest in CapEx. So that's why I would rather not be too bearish, but at the same time, I don't see too much difference between 4G and 5G cycle, if you know what I mean.

我的意思是，我的意思是，如果你看看從 4G 到 5G 的過渡，我認為我們經歷了 3 年的低迷時期，我認為這一切都是為了在那段時間削減成本。非常痛苦。另外，看看諾基亞和阿爾卡特朗訊在過去 15 年左右的時間裡一直在持續削減成本的歷史。這是相當困難的。 LTE Advanced 或 4.5G 等技術的承諾尚未實現。正如您自己所說，根本問題在於，儘管從運營商每比特成本的角度來看 5G 非常好，但他們無法通過更高的 ARPU 和更高的 EBITDA 將投資貨幣化。因此，最終，它會對投資資本支出的能力產生連鎖反應。所以這就是為什麼我寧願不要太悲觀，但同時，我認為 4G 和 5G 週期之間沒有太大差異，如果你明白我的意思的話。

I believe that this will be different. But you are absolutely correct when you talk about 5G monetization. I mean that is what we need to help operators do. We need to get to API's programmable networks, make it easier for them to build new use cases. But again, I mean, I do believe that once we start seeing these new devices on the market, AR/VR immersive experiences, we will start to see a completely new range of applications emerging that will be driving capacity needs.

我相信這會有所不同。但當你談論5G貨幣化時，你是絕對正確的。我的意思是，這就是我們需要幫助營運商做的事情。我們需要使用 API 的可編程網絡，讓他們更容易建立新的用例。但我的意思是，我確實相信，一旦我們開始在市場上看到這些新設備、AR/VR 沉浸式體驗，我們將開始看到一系列全新的應用程式出現，這將推動容量需求。

But what I would suggest is that since this will be one of the key themes in our December update, where Tommi will be talking about in more detail in terms of what those use cases will be, we will continue this discussion there. And of course, this whole theme of new use cases and immersive applications is not only an MN theme. It's very much also going to be a driver for Fixed Networks and home broadband.

但我建議的是，由於這將是我們 12 月更新的關鍵主題之一，Tommi 將更詳細地討論這些用例，因此我們將在那裡繼續討論。當然，新用例和沈浸式應用程式的整個主題不僅僅是 MN 主題。它也將成為固定網路和家庭寬頻的驅動力。

Thank you, Didier. Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes today's call. I would like to remind you that during the call today, we have made a number of forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results currently expected. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website. Thank you all for joining us today.

謝謝你，迪迪埃。女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。我想提醒您，在今天的電話會議中，我們做了一些涉及風險和不確定性的前瞻性聲明。因此，實際結果可能與目前預期的結果有重大差異。可能導致這種差異的因素既可以是外部因素，也可以是內部營運因素。我們已在 20-F 表格年度報告的風險因素部分中識別出此類風險，該表格可在我們的投資者關係網站上取得。感謝大家今天加入我們。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。