諾基亞 (NOK) 2023 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Nokia's Second Quarter 2023 Results Call. I'm David Mulholland, Head of Investor Relations. And today with me is Pekka Lundmark, our President and CEO; along with Marco Wiren, our CFO.

早上好，女士們、先生們，歡迎參加諾基亞 2023 年第二季度業績電話會議。我是投資者關係主管大衛·穆赫蘭。今天和我在一起的是我們的總裁兼首席執行官佩卡·倫德馬克 (Pekka Lundmark)；以及我們的首席財務官 Marco Wiren。

Before we get started, a quick disclaimer. During this call, we will be making forward-looking statements regarding our future business and financial performance, and these statements are predictions that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may, therefore, differ materially from the results we currently expect. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website.

在我們開始之前，先簡單聲明一下。在本次電話會議中，我們將就我們未來的業務和財務業績做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述是涉及風險和不確定性的預測。因此，實際結果可能與我們當前預期的結果存在重大差異。可能導致這種差異的因素既可以是外部因素，也可以是內部運營因素。我們已在 20-F 表格年度報告的風險因素部分中識別出此類風險，該表格可在我們的投資者關係網站上獲取。

Within today's presentation, references to growth rates will mostly be on a constant currency basis. And on margins, we'll be referring to our comparable reporting. Please note that our Q2 report and the presentation that accompanies this call are published on our website. The report includes both reported and comparable financial results and a reconciliation between the two.

在今天的演示中，對增長率的提及大多以固定匯率為基礎。在邊際上，我們將參考我們的可比報告。請注意，我們的第二季度報告和本次電話會議附帶的演示文稿已發佈在我們的網站上。該報告包括報告的和可比較的財務結果以及兩者之間的調節表。

In terms of the agenda for today's call, Pekka will give a quick overview on our financial and strategic progress in the quarter. Marco will then go into a bit more detail of some of the key factors impacting our outlook before Pekka concludes with our outlook 2023.

根據今天電話會議的議程，佩卡將簡要概述我們本季度的財務和戰略進展。然後，在 Pekka 對 2023 年展望進行總結之前，Marco 將更詳細地介紹影響我們前景的一些關鍵因素。

With that, let me hand over to Pekka.

那麼，就讓我把任務交給佩卡吧。

Thanks to everybody for dialing in today. We highlighted in Q1 that we were starting to see signs of the economic environment impacting customer spending. And already in the second quarter, we saw some of those signs materializing as it started to impact our sales outlook also in network infrastructure. But we still achieved flat year-on-year sales in the quarter as we continue to benefit from market share growth.

感謝大家今天撥通電話。我們在第一季度強調，我們開始看到經濟環境影響客戶支出的跡象。在第二季度，我們看到其中一些跡象成為現實，因為它開始影響我們在網絡基礎設施方面的銷售前景。但由於我們繼續受益於市場份額的增長，本季度的銷售額仍然與去年同期持平。

Despite the regional mix headwinds that are impacting our mobile networks business, we achieved a 38.8% gross margin and an 11-point operating margin. Considering the 40% drop in North America and even adjusting for the EUR 80 million catch-up net sales in Nokia Technologies, that was a pretty resilient result.

儘管區域組合的不利因素正在影響我們的移動網絡業務，但我們仍實現了 38.8% 的毛利率和 11 個百分點的營業利潤率。考慮到北美地區 40% 的下降，甚至對諾基亞技術公司 8000 萬歐元的淨銷售額進行調整，這是一個相當有彈性的結果。

If we look specifically at network infrastructure, you do see some divergence in the trends in the business. In IP Networks, we saw some weakness primarily related to CSP spending in North America, which led to the 11% drop in net sales.

如果我們專門關注網絡基礎設施，您確實會發現業務趨勢存在一些分歧。在 IP 網絡領域，我們看到一些疲軟的情況，主要與北美的 CSP 支出相關，導致淨銷售額下降 11%。

In Fixed Networks, we are seeing two primary effects. Firstly, we are facing some headwinds similar -- related to our fixed wireless access business, which still today remains sensitive to a small number of customers. And then secondly, as we see some inventory digestion primarily of consumer premise ONT devices.

在固定網絡中，我們看到兩個主要影響。首先，我們面臨著一些與我們的固定無線接入業務類似的阻力，該業務至今仍然對少數客戶敏感。其次，我們看到主要是消費者前提 ONT 設備的一些庫存消化。

In Optical Networks, we saw a further strong performance of plus 16% as we continue to benefit from the improved competitiveness of our products and market share gains. In fact, while we are seeing weakness elsewhere, our expectations for Optical this year is one area that has actually improved since the start of the year.

在光網絡領域，我們的業績進一步強勁，增長了 16% 以上，因為我們繼續受益於產品競爭力的提高和市場份額的增長。事實上，雖然我們在其他方面看到了疲軟，但我們對今年光學業務的預期是自今年年初以來實際上有所改善的一個領域。

In summary, networks, we saw some project timing effects and revenue growth after years of substantial growth, but the business remains well supported as it executes on its substantial backlog. From a profitability perspective, the business performed very well. Positive product mix, notably within fixed networks and proactive management of our costs as the sales outlook deteriorated. It meant we were still able to improve our operating margin in NII by 160 basis points to 13.1%.

總之，在網絡方面，經過多年的大幅增長，我們看到了一些項目時間效應和收入增長，但該業務在執行大量積壓訂單時仍然得到了良好的支持。從盈利能力來看，該業務表現非常好。積極的產品組合，特別是在固定網絡方面，以及在銷售前景惡化時主動管理我們的成本。這意味著我們仍然能夠將 NII 運營利潤率提高 160 個基點，達到 13.1%。

As we look forward, whilst we see some short-term challenges impacting the business, particularly with a softening environment for CSP spending, we remain highly confident in the opportunities ahead for our Network Infrastructure business.

展望未來，雖然我們看到一些影響業務的短期挑戰，特別是在 CSP 支出環境疲軟的情況下，但我們對網絡基礎設施業務未來的機遇仍然充滿信心。

In Optical, we continue to believe we are gaining market share. And with the customer traction of both PSC 5 and now lately with PSC 6, we are very optimistic about the potential to continue to grow in this business.

在光學領域，我們仍然相信我們正在贏得市場份額。隨著 PSC 5 和最近的 PSC 6 的客戶吸引力，我們對該業務的持續增長潛力非常樂觀。

In Fixed Networks, we understand there might be some concerns that we are now seeing some slowdown in sales, which is why we want to make it clear, as you see in the chart, that the decline is primarily related to fixed wireless due to its sensitivity to a small number of customers.

在固定網絡方面，我們知道可能有人擔心我們現在的銷售有所放緩，這就是為什麼我們想要明確表示，正如您在圖表中看到的那樣，下降主要與固定無線有關，因為它對少數客戶敏感。

In fiber, after 2 to 3 years of significant growth, we are now seeing some moderation in growth rates and some short-term inventory digestion, but the outlook remains strong for this business with a number of government subsidy programs in both the U.S. and Europe only just starting to benefit the market.

在纖維方面，經過兩到三年的顯著增長，我們現在看到增長率有所放緩，並且短期庫存有所消化，但該業務的前景仍然強勁，美國和歐洲的多項政府補貼計劃才剛剛開始使市場受益。

In IP Networks, while the uncertainty in CSP is impacting demand currently, we have been making great progress in expanding into enterprise and web scale, which has increased from 13% to now over 20% of IP net sales. Importantly, we believe we are in a strong position to make further progress into web scale into 2024. This diversification should help improve the structural growth opportunities for our IP Networks business, given the enterprise and webscale TAM is expected to grow at around 6% CAGR compared to the 1% growth for CSP customers.

在IP網絡方面，雖然CSP的不確定性目前正在影響需求，但我們在向企業和網絡規模擴張方面取得了巨大進展，佔IP淨銷售額的比例已從13%增至目前的20%以上。重要的是，我們相信我們有能力在 2024 年網絡規模方面取得進一步進展。這種多元化應有助於改善我們 IP 網絡業務的結構性增長機會，因為企業和網絡規模 TAM 預計將以 6% 的複合年增長率增長，而 CSP 客戶的複合年增長率為 1%。

Mobile Networks saw 5% growth in constant currency year-on-year as a result of the continuation of the rapid development of 5G in India, where we continue to gain market share. These were partially offset by the expected decline in North America as customers continue to evaluate their spending plans and deplete their inventories in the quarter. Gross margin declined year-on-year, reflecting the regional mix. Given the slower pace of recovery in North America, we now expect the growth margin to only improve towards the end of the year.

由於印度5G持續快速發展，移動網絡按固定匯率計算同比增長5%，市場份額不斷擴大。由於客戶繼續評估其支出計劃並在本季度耗盡庫存，北美地區的預期下降部分抵消了這些影響。毛利率同比下降，反映出區域結構的差異。鑑於北美復蘇步伐較慢，我們現在預計增長率只會在年底前有所改善。

With respect to operating margin, a decline in operating expenses, reflecting swift action and cost discipline meant that we achieved 7.9% operating margin, an improvement on Q1. During the quarter, Mobile Networks also launched a series of new products, including basebands, radios and network management and optimization solutions that will drive better performance, lower energy consumption and brings the power of artificial intelligence to Mobile Networks.

就營業利潤率而言，營業費用的下降反映了迅速的行動和成本紀律，這意味著我們實現了 7.9% 的營業利潤率，比第一季度有所改善。本季度，移動網絡還推出了一系列新產品，包括基帶、無線電以及網絡管理和優化解決方案，這些產品將推動更好的性能、更低的能耗，並為移動網絡帶來人工智能的力量。

Cloud and Network Services grew 2% on a constant currency basis, mainly driven by core networks and enterprise solutions. Gross margin declined slightly. However, pleasingly, operating margin improved year-on-year 290 basis points as a result of lower OpEx and other operating income items.

雲和網絡服務按固定匯率計算增長 2%，主要由核心網絡和企業解決方案推動。毛利率略有下降。然而，令人高興的是，由於運營支出和其他營業收入項目下降，營業利潤率同比提高了 290 個基點。

At the end of June, Nokia reached an agreement to transfer cloud infrastructure portfolio to Red Hat. And starting in Q1 2024, we will adopt the Red Hat platform as our primary reference cloud infrastructure platform for new customers gradually transitioning existing customers over from Nokia's core networks portfolio. Over 350 Nokia employees are expected to transition to Red Hat to provide continued roadmap evolution, deployment services and support on behalf of Nokia to its customers.

6月底，諾基亞達成協議，將雲基礎設施組合轉移給紅帽。從 2024 年第一季度開始，我們將採用紅帽平台作為我們的主要參考雲基礎設施平台，為新客戶逐步將現有客戶從諾基亞核心網絡產品組合過渡。預計超過 350 名諾基亞員工將轉至紅帽，代表諾基亞向客戶提供持續的路線圖演變、部署服務和支持。

One thing to highlight is that just a couple of weeks ago, we signed a long-term patent license agreement with Apple. Obviously, the terms of the deal are confidential, but it is one of our longest deals, and we are delighted with the outcome.

需要強調的一件事是，就在幾週前，我們與蘋果簽署了一份長期專利許可協議。顯然，該交易的條款是保密的，但這是我們最長的交易之一，我們對結果感到高興。

Nokia Technologies saw a 10% increase in constant currency net sales, driven by EUR 80 million of catch-up sales related to deals signed in the quarter. Excluding these net sales, it would have been on a similar level to Q1. We were pleased to sign a number [business] deals in Q2. Considering our current base of agreements, we now see that our net sales annual run rate would be EUR 1.1 billion from January 2024 subject to any other material developments. We also continued to renew our industry-leading patent portfolio, reaching the milestone of 5,500 patent families cleared as essential to 5G.

在與本季度簽署的交易相關的 8000 萬歐元追趕銷售額的推動下，諾基亞技術公司的按固定匯率計算的淨銷售額增長了 10%。排除這些淨銷售額，其水平將與第一季度相似。我們很高興在第二季度簽署了多項[商業]交易。考慮到我們目前的協議基礎，我們現在看到，從 2024 年 1 月起，我們的淨銷售額年運行率為 11 億歐元，具體取決於任何其他重大進展。我們還繼續更新行業領先的專利組合，達到 5,500 個專利族被認定為 5G 必需的里程碑。

Enterprise sales had another successful quarter, growth of 27% in constant currency, a key pillar of our strategy. We continue to make good progress towards our near-term target of having at least 10% of our sales from Enterprise, which reached 9% on a last 12-month basis. We continued strong growth in both enterprise verticals and in webscale. This is particularly benefiting our IP Networks and Optical Networks businesses, and we remain confident of our opportunity to grow here, as I already mentioned. We now have more than 635 customers in private wireless and added 90 new customers in Enterprise.

企業銷售在本季度又取得了成功，按固定匯率計算增長了 27%，這是我們戰略的關鍵支柱。我們繼續在實現近期目標方面取得良好進展，即至少 10% 的銷售額來自 Enterprise，在過去 12 個月中達到 9%。我們在企業垂直領域和網絡規模方面持續強勁增長。這對我們的 IP 網絡和光網絡業務尤其有利，正如我已經提到的，我們對在這裡發展的機會充滿信心。我們現在在專用無線領域擁有超過 635 個客戶，並在企業領域增加了 90 個新客戶。

With that, I will now (inaudible) Marco to go into a bit more detail on our financial performance.

現在，我將（聽不清）Marco 更詳細地介紹我們的財務業績。

Thanks, Pekka, and good morning from my side as well. Looking at our net sales performance by region of -- driven again by the rapid ramp-up sales in India, which increased significantly year-on-year in Mobile Networks, but also saw growth in Network Infrastructure.

謝謝佩卡，我也早上好。看看我們按地區劃分的淨銷售業績——再次受到印度銷售快速增長的推動，印度的移動網絡同比大幅增長，但網絡基礎設施也出現增長。

In Europe, sales grew by 11%, even excluding the increase in Tech, which is recorded in Europe, and we had strong profitable business growth. And the growth in Middle East and Africa were mainly driven by Cloud and Network Services and Network Infrastructure. There were declines in Asia Pacific, Latin America and Greater China with mixed performance across the business growth. And then the 40% decline in North America was a result of declines across all business groups as inventory digestion continued and CSPs reevaluated their spending plans.

在歐洲，即使不包括歐洲記錄的科技增長，銷售額也增長了 11%，我們的盈利業務增長強勁。中東和非洲的增長主要由雲和網絡服務以及網絡基礎設施推動。亞太地區、拉丁美洲和大中華區的業務增長出現下滑，表現參差不齊。然後，隨著庫存消化的繼續以及通信服務提供商重新評估其支出計劃，北美地區 40% 的下降是所有業務部門下降的結果。

So in summary, Q2 reflected the trends we had expected to see with rapid India ramp-up being offset by a slowdown in North America.

總而言之，第二季度反映了我們預期看到的趨勢，即印度的快速增長被北美的放緩所抵消。

And if we now move to our P&L performance in the quarter. Our comparable operating margin declined 120 basis points year-over-year. And as expected, we saw the negative impact from regional mix continued in the quarter as India seems grew strongly and North America continued to be weak. However, overall margins were rather resilient, benefiting from both quick actions and cost discipline that we took across the businesses as well as the Nokia Technologies catch-up net sales. We also saw a year-on-year increase in operating income. This was mainly related to hedging in addition to income from the sale of certain digital assets in the quarter.

如果我們現在轉向本季度的損益表表現。我們的可比營業利潤率同比下降 120 個基點。正如預期的那樣，我們看到區域組合的負面影響在本季度繼續存在，印度似乎增長強勁，而北美繼續疲軟。然而，整體利潤率相當有彈性，這得益於我們在各業務部門採取的快速行動和成本控制，以及諾基亞技術公司追趕的淨銷售額。我們還看到營業收入同比增長。這主要與本季度出售某些數字資產的收入以及對沖有關。

And if we now turn to the operating margin performance (inaudible). As we already mentioned, we were pleased to see the margin performance given the headwinds of (inaudible) growth and regional mix. While Pekka already touched upon many of the drivers, the increases in (inaudible) and Cloud and Network Services and Nokia Technologies were offset by the decline in Mobile Networks margins. Group Common was a net negative on a year-on-year basis. So this is mainly related to venture fund positive that we had last year of EUR 40 million coming to a negative revaluation of EUR 10 million this year.

如果我們現在轉向營業利潤率表現（聽不清）。正如我們已經提到的，考慮到（聽不清）增長和區域組合的不利因素，我們很高興看到利潤率表現。雖然佩卡已經談到了許多驅動因素，但（聽不清）雲和網絡服務以及諾基亞技術的增長被移動網絡利潤率的下降所抵消。普通集團同比淨負值。因此，這主要與我們去年的 4000 萬歐元的風險基金正值今年的負值重估為 1000 萬歐元有關。

Moving to our cash flow performance in the quarter. We ended quarter 2 with EUR 3.7 billion of net cash, sequential decline of roughly EUR 600 million. Our free cash flow in the quarter was negative EUR 380 million. As you can see on this slide, the main driver for the cash burn in the quarter was related to performance-related employee variable pay, which included in the liabilities line within net working capital. Otherwise, there were small movements in both receivables and inventories within net working capital.

轉向我們本季度的現金流表現。第二季度結束時，我們的淨現金為 37 億歐元，比上一季度減少約 6 億歐元。本季度我們的自由現金流為負 3.8 億歐元。正如您在這張幻燈片中看到的，本季度現金消耗的主要驅動力與績效相關的員工可變薪酬有關，其中包括在淨營運資本內的負債線中。除此之外，淨營運資本內的應收賬款和存貨均出現小幅變動。

We also returned EUR 250 million of capital to shareholders through our increased dividend and our ongoing share buyback program. And perhaps most importantly, we believe our strong balance sheet, including the EUR 3.7 billion net cash provides us with a firm foundation dedicated to this period of uncertainty.

我們還通過增加股息和持續的股票回購計劃向股東返還 2.5 億歐元資本。也許最重要的是，我們相信我們強大的資產負債表，包括 37 億歐元的淨現金，為我們應對這一不確定時期提供了堅實的基礎。

And the final slide for me before Pekka updates you on our outlook for 2023, I wanted to revisit a slide that we showed at the start of the year around our cash conversion. So we continue to expect the end of the year with a free cash flow conversion of 20% to 50% of comparable operating profit. However, through the first half, we have seen some slight adjustments within this envelope that we wanted to point out.

在 Pekka 向您介紹我們對 2023 年的展望之前，我想回顧一下我們在年初展示的有關現金轉換的幻燈片。因此，我們繼續預計今年年底自由現金流將達到可比營業利潤的 20% 至 50%。然而，在上半場，我們在這個範圍內看到了一些我們想要指出的細微調整。

The two main items are: Net working capital, which has continued to be a use of cash this year, reflecting the large 5G deployments in India and their impact, both receivables and inventories. The second item is around the gap between Nokia Technologies operating profit and cash, which is also reported in net profit. Originally, we expected this to be slightly positive in 2023. And given the deals that we have signed thus far in 2023, we now expect cash flows to be meaningfully higher than operating profit. Some of the new deals we've signed are coming with some modest prepayments for what would have otherwise been received in 2024. And considering there are still a number of details to broke out here, we will give you a more quantitative outlook later in the year.

兩個主要項目是： 淨營運資本，今年繼續使用現金，反映了印度大規模的 5G 部署及其對應收賬款和庫存的影響。第二個項目是諾基亞技術公司營業利潤和現金之間的差距，這也反映在淨利潤中。最初，我們預計 2023 年的現金流量將略為正值。考慮到 2023 年迄今為止我們已簽署的交易，我們現在預計現金流量將明顯高於營業利潤。我們簽署的一些新協議附帶了一些適度的預付款，否則本​​應在 2024 年收到。考慮到這裡仍有許多細節需要披露，我們將在今年晚些時候向您提供更定量的展望。

Our long-term vision to have greater alignment between operating profit and cash remains unchanged, and we would expect to move towards much greater alignment from 2025 and onwards. So beyond this year, we continue to expect significantly strong cash flow in 2024 as we work towards our longer-term target of 55% to 85% conversion.

我們實現營業利潤和現金之間更大程度一致性的長期願景保持不變，我們預計從 2025 年及以後將實現更大程度的一致性。因此，今年之後，隨著我們努力實現 55% 至 85% 的長期目標，我們仍預計 2024 年的現金流將非常強勁。

And with that, let me pass it back to Pekka to go through our revised outlook.

接下來，讓我把它傳回給佩卡，讓他回顧一下我們修改後的前景。

Thank you, Marco. Let me start by talking about how we see the dynamics unfolding in our market in 2023. We have mentioned a few times already that we see the current macro uncertainty really impacting customer demand this year as inflation and rising interest rates create a greater focus within CSPs on short-term cash flow. This is primarily impacting our Network Infrastructure and Mobile Networks addressable markets. So I want to be clear that this is an industry-wide challenge we face right now and particularly within CSPs and the changes we have made are primarily related to North America.

謝謝你，馬可。讓我首先談談我們如何看待 2023 年市場的動態。我們已經多次提到，我們認為當前的宏觀不確定性確實影響了今年的客戶需求，因為通貨膨脹和利率上升使 CSP 更加關注短期現金流。這主要影響我們的網絡基礎設施和移動網絡潛在市場。因此，我想明確指出，這是我們目前面臨的全行業挑戰，特別是在通信服務提供商內部，而我們所做的改變主要與北美相關。

We now forecast 1% constant currency growth in our Network Infrastructure addressable market down from plus 4%, minus 2% in Mobile Networks market, also down from plus 4%. And our outlook for CNS addressable market remains unchanged at plus 3%.

我們現在預測網絡基礎設施市場的貨幣恆定增長率為 1%，從正 4% 下調至負 2%，移動網絡市場也從正 4% 下調。我們對中樞神經系統 (CNS) 潛在市場的前景保持不變，即增長 3%。

So while we have clearly seen a deterioration in the outlook for our markets in 2023, it should be remembered that there are a number of dynamics that clearly support the need to invest in many of our key end markets, which I wanted to revisit.

因此，雖然我們清楚地看到 2023 年市場前景惡化，但應該記住，有許多動態明顯支持投資我們許多關鍵終端市場的必要性，我想重新審視這些市場。

For all of the short-term uncertainty, one thing remains clear, data consumption growth will continue. According to Bell Labs Consulting study, data consumption is forecast to grow at between 20% and 30% CAGR through the end of the decade. Considering all of the data reach applications we see, such as generative AI and also new augmented reality devices coming, we see data consumption growth is a demand.

儘管存在所有短期不確定性，但有一件事仍然明確：數據消費將繼續增長。根據貝爾實驗室諮詢公司的研究，預計到本十年末，數據消耗將以 20% 至 30% 的複合年增長率增長。考慮到我們看到的所有數據應用，例如生成人工智能和即將推出的新增強現實設備，我們認為數據消費增長是一種需求。

Second, if we look at how 5G has been deployed on mid-band sites across the world, excluding China, we still see plenty of potential. Approximately only 25% of sites now have 5G mid-band deployed on them. While penetration rates vary by region, even in markets like North America, where significant deployments have already been made, the region is only 55% complete. Other regions like Europe, Latin America and Middle East and Africa are still in the very early stages. So still significant investments needed around the world.

其次，如果我們看看 5G 在全球（不包括中國）中頻段站點的部署情況，我們仍然看到巨大的潛力。目前大約只有 25% 的站點部署了 5G 中頻段。雖然滲透率因地區而異，即使在北美等已經進行了大量部署的市場，該地區也只完成了 55%。歐洲、拉丁美洲、中東和非洲等其他地區仍處於早期階段。因此，世界各地仍需要大量投資。

Then looking at fiber penetration, you will see that there is still a substantial amount of fiber that needs to be deployed around the world. And perhaps even more importantly, once that fiber is laid, investments will continue for that same fiber for many years to continually drive higher capacity on these lines.

然後看看光纖滲透率，您會發現世界各地仍然有大量光纖需要部署。也許更重要的是，一旦鋪設光纖，對同一光纖的投資將持續多年，以不斷提高這些線路的容量。

Then turning to our full year outlook that we revised last week. We reduced our net sales outlook for 2023 to EUR 23.2 billion to EUR 24.6 billion from the prior EUR 24.6 billion to EUR 26.2 billion. Proactive action by our business groups to manage cost is largely mitigating the impact to our operating margin, and hence, we only narrowed the range to 11.5% to 13% from the prior 11.5% to 14%. You can also see in our report, we have also revised the assumptions by business group for 2023.

然後轉向我們上周修訂的全年展望。我們將 2023 年淨銷售額預期從之前的 246 億歐元至 262 億歐元下調至 232 億歐元至 246 億歐元。我們的業務部門積極採取行動來管理成本，在很大程度上減輕了對我們營業利潤率的影響，因此，我們僅將範圍從之前的11.5%至14%縮小至11.5%至13%。您還可以在我們的報告中看到，我們還修改了 2023 年按業務組劃分的假設。

The main driver here has been around the macro challenges that I've already explained in my commentary. In the second half, we expect these trends to continue to impact our business, meaning we now see second half net sales broadly similar to the first half in both Network Infrastructure and Mobile Networks with some sequential improvement visible into Q4.

這裡的主要驅動因素是我在評論中已經解釋過的宏觀挑戰。在下半年，我們預計這些趨勢將繼續影響我們的業務，這意味著我們現在看到下半年網絡基礎設施和移動網絡的淨銷售額與上半年大致相似，並且在第四季度可以看到一些連續的改善。

Thank you, Marco and Pekka. With that, let's start the Q&A. As a courtesy to others in the queue, could you please limit yourself to one question and a brief follow-up. Maria, could you please give the instructions?

謝謝馬可和佩卡。那麼，讓我們開始問答吧。出於對隊列中其他人的禮貌，您能否只回答一個問題並進行簡短的跟進。瑪麗亞，你能給個指示嗎？

(Operator Instructions) I will now hand the call back to Mr. David Mulholland.

（接線員指示）我現在將電話轉回給 David Mulholland 先生。

Thank you, Maria. We'll take our first question today from Alex Peterc from Societe Generale.

謝謝你，瑪麗亞。今天我們將回答來自法國興業銀行的 Alex Peterc 的第一個問題。

I hope you can hear me well.

我希望你能好好聽我說話。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Excellent. So my first question would be on the good OpEx discipline that you demonstrated in your second quarter that protected margins very well. Do you have any specific new restructuring measures in place? And if so, are there any upfront costs that we should be aware of? Or are you using previously planned and provision restructuring budgets? And do you see from here any need for more comprehensive new restructuring plans in the coming quarters? That will be the first one. And then I have a follow-up.

出色的。因此，我的第一個問題是關於你們在第二季度展示的良好的運營支出紀律，這很好地保護了利潤率。您是否有具體的新的重組措施？如果是這樣，我們是否應該注意任何前期成本？或者您是否正在使用先前計劃和撥備的重組預算？您是否認為未來幾個季度需要製定更全面的新重組計劃？那將是第一個。然後我有一個後續行動。

Thank you, Alex. I want to point out also that the 5% reduction on year-on-year in OpEx is mainly coming from FX. And excluding the FX, it is largely stable despite, of course, the income deflation environment where we are.

謝謝你，亞歷克斯。我還想指出，運營支出同比下降5%主要來自外匯。當然，儘管我們所處的收入通縮環境不包括外匯，但它基本上是穩定的。

In terms of the actions, I just want to highlight that we have taken different actions on short term, when it comes to hiring, travel and also the supply chain costs. And considering the change in our outlook, we also have seen benefit from lower variable pay accruals. But of course, the discipline continue into second half of this year.

就行動而言，我只想強調，在招聘、差旅以及供應鏈成本方面，我們在短期內採取了不同的行動。考慮到我們前景的變化，我們也看到了較低的可變薪酬應計額帶來的好處。當然，這種紀律會持續到今年下半年。

And I also want to point out that the operational model that we have with decentralized responsibilities, the different businesses, the business leaders in these entities are seeing and taking actions whenever they are seeing a need for that. So the speed of actions are fast in this new model that we have. What comes to any future restructurings, we will obviously continue to evaluate our cost saves in light of the demand outlook that we have.

我還想指出，我們擁有分散責任的運營模式，不同的業務，這些實體中的業務領導者在看到需要時都會看到並採取行動。因此，我們的新模型的動作速度很快。對於未來的任何重組，我們顯然將根據我們的需求前景繼續評估我們節省的成本。

Do you have a follow-up, Alex?

亞歷克斯，你有後續嗎？

Yes. It's very clear. My follow-up would be on the achieving problem at the U.S. fixed operators in the last-mile copper network that we heard about in recent days. Now I'd just like to hear your take on the situation. Is this a big liability with a lot of cleanup and legal costs from major operators in North America that may put a pressure on their ability to spend on CapEx? Or is it on the contrary, in your view, a catalyst for total fixed access overall that should be beneficial to you as the market leader in this geography in this market area?

是的。非常清楚。我的後續行動將是我們最近幾天聽說的美國固定運營商在最後一英里銅纜網絡中的實現問題。現在我想听聽你對這種情況的看法。這是否是一項巨大的責任，北美主要運營商需要承擔大量清理費用和法律費用，可能會對他們的資本支出能力造成壓力？或者相反，在您看來，它是整體固定接入的催化劑，應該對您作為該市場地區的市場領導者有利？

Yes. Thanks, Alex. I mean, I'm, of course, aware of this reporting, and we've been following that story. But, however, we don't have enough information to really be able to comment your question. Of course, environmental impact must always be a priority. And also note that the companies mentioned in the reporting have issued robust statements in response, but a specific answer to your question in terms of the impact should really come from the U.S. operators and not from us. We cannot comment that.

是的。謝謝，亞歷克斯。我的意思是，我當然知道這篇報導，我們一直在關注這個故事。但是，我們沒有足夠的信息來真正能夠評論您的問題。當然，環境影響必須始終是優先考慮的事項。另請注意，報告中提到的公司已發表強有力的聲明作為回應，但對你的問題的影響的具體答案實際上應該來自美國運營商，而不是我們。我們無法對此發表評論。

We will take our next question from Francois Bouvignies from UBS.

我們將回答瑞銀集團弗朗索瓦·布維尼 (Francois Bouvignies) 提出的下一個問題。

So I have two quick one, and one is very high level. So Pekka, you mentioned in the video and in fairness, you're not the only one. Ericsson as well your competitors talking about this data traffic as a driver of demand and investment in the future, and you have this chart as well of data traffic. Now if we take a step back and look in the past, I mean the data traffic has been quite strong and yet the revenues has been barely growing for Nokia as a whole at the group level. Of course, you have different mix, but you saw differences of data traffic. And revenues basically grows. And it's true as well for Ericsson, in fairness. So is it the right way to look at data traffic as a growth driver for the business? Or maybe what could change in the future that you could monetize more the data traffic? Maybe that's my first question.

所以我有兩種，一種是快速的，另一種是非常高水平的。所以佩卡，你在視頻中提到過，公平地說，你不是唯一一個這樣做的人。愛立信和您的競爭對手都在談論這種數據流量作為未來需求和投資的驅動因素，您也有這張數據流量圖表。現在，如果我們退後一步回顧過去，我的意思是數據流量相當強勁，但諾基亞作為一個整體在集團層面的收入卻幾乎沒有增長。當然，你有不同的組合，但你看到了數據流量的差異。收入基本增長。公平地說，對於愛立信來說也是如此。那麼，將數據流量視為業務增長動力的正確方法是什麼呢？或者也許未來會發生什麼變化，您可以通過更多的數據流量獲利？也許這是我的第一個問題。

Okay. I mean, obviously, monetizing the data traffic is a highly significant question for operators. And through that, also for us. And it is fair to say that operators have not been particularly good in monetizing the data traffic growth in the past. And now, of course, there are new tools available like 5G slicing and different types of industrial applications. We certainly hope and we work with operators to help them to monitor it better this time.

好的。我的意思是，顯然，對運營商來說，數據流量貨幣化是一個非常重要的問題。通過這一點，對我們來說也是如此。公平地說，過去運營商在通過數據流量增長貨幣化方面表現不佳。當然，現在有新的工具可用，例如 5G 切片和不同類型的工業應用。我們當然希望並且我們與運營商合作，幫助他們這次更好地監控。

But then there is another angle to this question, too, which actually does not have that much to do with the monetization itself. If simply the data traffic continues to grow, operators, if they want to stay in the business, they will have to continue to invest. And this is the reason why we believe that this slowdown in investments in some parts of the world, especially in North America, has to be primarily a question of timing because if one particular operator would not continue to invest, their competitors would. And this is a highly relevant question, both in Mobile Networks and also in Fixed Access.

但這個問題還有另一個角度，它實際上與貨幣化本身沒有太大關係。如果數據流量繼續增長，運營商如果想繼續經營下去，就必須繼續投資。這就是為什麼我們認為世界某些地區（尤其是北美）的投資放緩主要是一個時間問題，因為如果某個特定運營商不繼續投資，他們的競爭對手就會繼續投資。無論是在移動網絡還是在固定接入中，這都是一個高度相關的問題。

Now in North America, especially when the new funding is available for the broadband for all programs, there will be even more competition between operators who are scrambling to offer new services as quickly as possible once the funding gradually gets available. So the monetization question is a relevant one, but we believe that investments will be driven by the growing data traffic even in the case, which would be unfortunate where operators would not be able to significantly better monetize the growth in the future.

現在在北美，尤其是當所有節目的寬帶都獲得了新的資金後，運營商之間的競爭將會更加激烈，一旦資金逐漸到位，運營商就會爭先恐後地提供新服務。因此，貨幣化問題是一個相關問題，但我們認為，即使在這種情況下，投資也將由不斷增長的數據流量驅動，而不幸的是，運營商未來將無法更好地通過增長來貨幣化。

Do you have a follow up?

你有跟進嗎？

Yes. Very clear, Pekka. And the second one is on the 25% of 5G deployed on the mid-band, again, very consistent with what your competitors are saying. Now you have this interesting chart about the penetration by regions, and North America seems to be more than 50%. So we would assume that most of the deployment would be from -- excluding North America, India, Middle East, Africa, Latin America, which, as we see this year, is the mix seems to be negative on the margin side, the ex North America. So does it mean that from a mix perspective, as we look going forward, this negative mix should continue in the medium term as the growth is coming from other than North America?

是的。非常清楚，佩卡。第二個是在中頻段部署 25% 的 5G，這與競爭對手的說法非常一致。現在您可以看到這個關於各地區滲透率的有趣圖表，其中北美似乎超過 50%。因此，我們假設大部分部署將來自北美、印度、中東、非洲、拉丁美洲，正如我們今年所看到的，除北美外，這一組合似乎在邊緣方面是負面的。那麼，從混合角度來看，這是否意味著，隨著我們展望未來，這種負面混合應該在中期持續下去，因為增長來自北美以外的地區？

Well, if you assume that the end result would be that every market would be at x percent, of course, this will not go to 100%, but it will go much higher compared to where it is today. Of course, if the end result would be the same everywhere, then your conclusion would be correct. But we are suggesting that even the North American market is far from complete. So that's why we are expecting a recovery also in that market, at the same time, when the deployment will continue in other parts of the world.

好吧，如果你假設最終結果是每個市場都處於 x%，當然，這不會達到 100%，但與今天相比會更高。當然，如果最終結果到處都一樣，那麼你的結論就是正確的。但我們認為，即使是北美市場也遠未完成。因此，我們預計該市場也會復蘇，同時世界其他地區的部署也將繼續。

We will take our -- from Sébastien Sztabowicz from Kepler Cheuvreux.

我們將從 Kepler Cheuvreux 的 Sébastien Sztabowicz 那裡得到我們的。

What are the assumptions behind your guidance for 2023? And notably on the margin front, do you assume to resign the licensed Chinese smartphone OEM that you have there to reach your margin guidance for this year? And could you please make an update on your litigation today with OPPO and Vivo, where you are standing?

您對 2023 年指導意見背後的假設是什麼？尤其是在利潤率方面，您是否認為要放棄獲得許可的中國智能手機原始設備製造商，以達到今年的利潤率指導？您能否介紹一下您今天與 OPPO 和 Vivo 提起的訴訟的最新情況，您的立場如何？

And the second question is on the pricing condition. On the pricing, do you see any change in pricing dynamics now that the market is getting a little bit weaker? Or you still see roughly stable pricing condition?

第二個問題是關於定價條件。在定價方面，由於市場變得有點疲軟，您認為定價動態有什麼變化嗎？或者您仍然看到大致穩定的定價狀況？

What comes to OPPO and Vivo litigation and negotiations, those are continuing, and we remain confident that we will have a positive outcome on those as well. And of course, we are working on to resolve these disputes as soon as possible. And as you've seen also, there's been several court cases like Germany, U.K., India, Brazil and Netherlands, which have ruled in our favor in the past year. So the trend is quite clear here.

OPPO 和 Vivo 的訴訟和談判仍在繼續，我們仍然有信心在這些方面取得積極的結果。當然，我們正在努力盡快解決這些爭端。正如您所看到的，去年德國、英國、印度、巴西和荷蘭等多個法庭案件都做出了對我們有利的裁決。所以這裡的趨勢非常明顯。

And what comes to our current outlook assumptions, we see in the -- for the technology part that we expect largely stable operating profit in 2023. And this is assuming that we will close this piece also. And -- but that said, we will continue to prioritize protecting a value of our intellectual property of achieving a certain time line. But remember also that we will have cash-up payments in this -- when these are solved. At the same time, we are very confident that we see opportunities in the new growth areas in the Technologies, live video streaming and audio, and IoT, and automotive and so on.

我們目前的前景假設是——對於技術部分，我們預計 2023 年營業利潤將基本穩定。這是假設我們也將結束這一部分。儘管如此，我們將繼續優先考慮保護我們知識產權的價值，以實現一定的時間表。但還要記住，當這些問題得到解決後，我們將獲得現金支付。與此同時，我們非常有信心看到技術、實時視頻流和音頻、物聯網和汽車等新增長領域的機會。

When it comes to pricing, I mean in our market, there are always some case-by-case basis. Cases where there are irrational pricing actions by some competitors. But in the big picture, no, we have not seen such. And what I would like to point out is that we actually have an interest to increase pricing discipline in our industry in order to not only protect our gross margins, but also to push them up and at least make sure that all the inflationary rapid costs are due to prices then gradually structurally improve them also going forward.

當談到定價時，我的意思是在我們的市場中，總是有一些具體情況的基礎。部分競爭對手存在不合理定價行為的案例。但從大局來看，不，我們還沒有看到這樣的情況。我想指出的是，我們實際上有興趣加強我們行業的定價紀律，不僅是為了保護我們的毛利率，也是為了推高毛利率，至少確保所有快速通脹的成本都是由價格造成的，然後在未來逐步從結構上改善它們。

We'll take our next question from Artem Beletski from SEB.

我們將回答來自 SEB 的 Artem Beletski 的下一個問題。

I would like to ask about North America and this 40% decline in Q2 year-over-year. Could you maybe provide some color whether there has been any significant differences between main segments, so basically Mobile Networks or NI? And just looking at the past quarter, has there been any significant shift what comes to the pace of decline in the region?

我想問一下北美的情況以及第二季度同比下降 40% 的情況。您能否提供一些信息，說明主要細分市場（基本上是移動網絡或 NI）之間是否存在任何顯著差異？看看過去一個季度，該地區的下滑速度是否發生了重大變化？

Thank you, Artem. The weakness was clearly visible in both businesses, but the decline was slightly greater in Mobile Networks. And in Network Infrastructure, slightly less. So when we talk about the -- and this is Q2. And then when we talk about the outlook, we see -- as I said, we see some recovery in the second half of the year, but it will be slower than previously expected.

謝謝你，阿爾喬姆。這兩項業務的疲軟現像都顯而易見，但移動網絡的跌幅略大。而在網絡基礎設施方面，則略少一些。所以當我們談論——這是第二季度。然後，當我們談論前景時，正如我所說，我們看到下半年會出現一些復甦，但會比之前預期的要慢。

And while I already discussed the reasons that customer spending plans are increasingly impacted by high inflation, rising interest rates. And what we are clearly seeing, and you can see this in operators' public statements also, is that they have strong actions going on to optimize their free cash flow for this year, often connected to their financial covenants and so on. And one lever that they are pulling is their short-term CapEx, which is not connected to the mid- to long-term investment needs as we see them.

雖然我已經討論了客戶支出計劃越來越受到高通脹和利率上升影響的原因。我們清楚地看到，你也可以在運營商的公開聲明中看到這一點，他們正在採取強有力的行動來優化今年的自由現金流，這通常與他們的財務契約等有關。他們拉動的槓桿之一是短期資本支出，這與我們認為的中長期投資需求無關。

So after a few years of heavy investment in North America, it is natural in these conditions to expect one and see some normalization. But we do continue to believe that it is a question of timing. And once again, slightly more on the Mobile Network side, slightly less on the NI side.

因此，在北美進行了幾年的大量投資之後，在這些條件下，期待並看到一些正常化是很自然的。但我們仍然相信這是一個時間問題。再次強調，移動網絡方面稍微多一些，NI 方面稍微少一些。

Did you have a follow-up Artem?

你有後續的Artem嗎？

Yes. And I would continue on the regional discussion. So when it comes to this astonishing growth in India, what you also recorded in Q2, have you any insight when do you expect the Indian market to peak in terms of basically investment activity?

是的。我將繼續進行區域討論。那麼，當談到印度的驚人增長時，您在第二季度也記錄了這一點，您預計印度市場的基本投資活動何時會達到頂峰，您有什麼見解嗎？

Yes. I mean, of course, 355% growth is not something that you should expect to continue forever. It has been an incredible growth period in India. Of course, the investments continue, but we would expect there to be the moderation in the second half. And the overall result, I guess, will be that 2023 will be an exceptional year in India for sure. We will see some normalization in 2024. But we have to remember, if you compare this to the past that we have taken market share because we broke into big time into Reliance Jio, which was 100% Samsung previously. So despite the fact that there will, of course, be normalization in 2024, we believe that in a way the new normal, the new run rate that we will see for our business is India will be clearly higher than what was the case before.

是的。當然，我的意思是，355% 的增長並不應該永遠持續下去。印度經歷了令人難以置信的增長時期。當然，投資仍在繼續，但我們預計下半年投資將會放緩。我認為，總體結果是 2023 年對印度來說肯定是不平凡的一年。我們將在 2024 年看到一些正常化。但我們必須記住，如果與過去相比，我們已經佔據了市場份額，因為我們闖入了 Reliance Jio，而 Reliance Jio 之前是 100% 三星。因此，儘管事實當然會在 2024 年實現正常化，但我們相信，在某種程度上，新常態，我們在印度看到的業務新運行率將明顯高於以前的情況。

We'll take our next question from Daniel Djurberg from Handelsbanken.

我們將接受德國商業銀行的 Daniel Djurberg 提出的下一個問題。

Yes, a question on, you can say, other early high-margin 5G countries, such as Japan and South Korea, et cetera. What do you see there in the outlook? Looking at KDDI, for example, it seems that they are doing some kind of 5G 2.0 rollout, for me at least. And also if you can comment a bit on Western Europe and the trend in the replacement of Chinese gear would be interesting.

是的，你可以說是關於其他早期高利潤 5G 國家的問題，例如日本和韓國等。您在展望中看到了什麼？例如，看看 KDDI，他們似乎正在推出某種 5G 2.0，至少對我來說是這樣。另外，如果您能評論一下西歐以及中國裝備更換的趨勢，那將會很有趣。

Okay. Thank you, Daniel. If I take the Asia Pacific question first. I mean, we are in a strong position in many of the operators there including KDDI, and we are seeing some improvements in the outlook over the next 12 months. Too early to quantify, of course, but it is going to the right direction.

好的。謝謝你，丹尼爾。我先談談亞太問題。我的意思是，我們在包括 KDDI 在內的許多運營商中處於強勢地位，並且我們看到未來 12 個月的前景有所改善。當然，量化還為時過早，但它正朝著正確的方向發展。

In Europe, we did have pretty good growth. And there, we are taking market share. And I think we have all the possibilities to continue to take market share in Europe. We have to remember that, of course, there is always a connection to the overall economic activity. Some of the operators in Europe are not that strong in terms of their financial strength at the moment, which is clearly affecting their investments at the moment, but we are taking market share.

在歐洲，我們確實取得了相當不錯的增長。在那裡，我們正在佔領市場份額。我認為我們完全有可能繼續佔據歐洲市場份額。當然，我們必須記住，這與整體經濟活動始終存在聯繫。歐洲的一些運營商目前的財務實力並不強，這顯然影響了他們目前的投資，但我們正在搶占市場份額。

Fundamentals in Europe, if we compare that to the other parts of the world is the fact that Europe is significantly behind 5G rollout compared to many other parts of the world. So sooner or later, if and when Europe wants to take care of its competitiveness, Europe will have to start investing more in 5G. This is also something that I believe Brussels have understood very well, and we would assume that the various regulatory and other discussions would develop to a direction where more investments would be encouraged going forward because this is clearly something that Europe would need big time.

如果我們與世界其他地區進行比較，歐洲的基本面是，與世界許多其他地區相比，歐洲在 5G 部署方面明顯落後。因此，如果歐洲想要保持競爭力，遲早必須開始加大對 5G 的投資。我相信布魯塞爾對此也非常理解，我們假設各種監管和其他討論將朝著鼓勵未來更多投資的方向發展，因為這顯然是歐洲需要花大力氣的事情。

I agree. May I have a follow-up on IP networks? I think you said that they expect to grow with 6% with cyberscale -- hyperscale as well some roughly flattish or 1% with CSPs. Can you comment a bit on the competitive differences between these segments, i.e., your ability to get gross margins out of those two?

我同意。我可以跟進一下 IP 網絡嗎？我想你說過他們預計網絡規模（超大規模）的增長率為 6%，而 CSP 的增長率則大致持平或 1%。您能否評論一下這些細分市場之間的競爭差異，即您從這兩個細分市場中獲得毛利率的能力？

The -- obviously, the different segments operators, hyperscalers and then various enterprise verticals in terms of IP routing, they vary. Our focus has clearly been traditionally in CSP routing and namely within CSP routing in CSP edge routing. So now we have two trends which is then also connected to our R&D priorities. One thing is that we are kind of leveraging our natural strength to expand from edge routing to core routing in CSP networks, and we have some really promising traction here. Sales cycles are often fairly long here. But with the help of FP5 and the other new stuff that we have, I believe that we have good possibilities there because in edge routing, our market share is in the high 20s. In core routing, it is single digit. So there is a lot of opportunities to improve there. So this is one thing.

顯然，不同的細分市場運營商、超大規模運營商以及不同的垂直企業在 IP 路由方面存在差異。傳統上，我們的重點顯然是 CSP 路由，即 CSP 邊緣路由中的 CSP 路由。所以現在我們有兩個趨勢，這也與我們的研發重點相關。一件事是，我們正在利用我們的天然優勢，將 CSP 網絡中的邊緣路由擴展到核心路由，並且我們在這方面擁有一些非常有前景的吸引力。這裡的銷售週期通常相當長。但在 FP5 和我們擁有的其他新東西的幫助下，我相信我們在那裡有很好的可能性，因為在邊緣路由方面，我們的市場份額在 20 左右。在核心路由中，它是個位數。所以那裡有很多改進的機會。所以這是一回事。

Then the other thing is then webscalers where we where we see a lot of traction. We are investing a lot in that in our R&D to not only increase our differentiation, but also increase our added value. In relative terms so far in webscalers, we have been using a larger share of merchant components compared to tailored silicon. We are investing a lot in this development at the moment. And gradually, we target to increase our share also in conventional enterprise routing. Also, they are starting from larger enterprises where carrier grade quality, carrier grade flexibility and security is required. And the good thing for this is that, looking at how the data security demands are growing in these networks, there is a trend in demand towards more carrier rate equipment, which is clearly supporting our growth ambition.

另一件事是網絡縮放器，我們在其中看到了很大的吸引力。我們在研發方面投入了大量資金，不僅是為了提高我們的差異化，也是為了提高我們的附加值。相對而言，到目前為止，在網絡縮放器中，與定制芯片相比，我們一直在使用更大份額的商業組件。目前我們在這一開發方面投入了大量資金。我們的目標是逐漸增加在傳統企業路由中的份額。此外，他們還從需要運營商級質量、運營商級靈活性和安全性的大型企業開始。這樣做的好處是，看看這些網絡中數據安全需求的增長情況，就會發現對更多運營商速率設備的需求呈趨勢，這顯然支持了我們的增長雄心。

As I showed in that chart in the presentation, enterprise now represents 20% of our IP sales, while it was only 10% sometime ago. And this is, of course, a big difference when we compare ourselves to some of the key routing competitors that we have. They are much more enterprise driven, and that is clearly the direction we also want to take in this business.

正如我在演示中的圖表中所示，企業現在占我們 IP 銷售額的 20%，而不久前僅為 10%。當然，當我們與我們擁有的一些主要路由競爭對手進行比較時，這是一個很大的差異。它們更多地是企業驅動的，這顯然也是我們在這項業務中想要採取的方向。

We'll take our next question from Simon Leopold from Raymond James.

我們將回答雷蒙德·詹姆斯的西蒙·利奧波德提出的下一個問題。

Great. First, I wanted to discuss the longer-term expectations for operating margin. I think you've talked about getting 14% or higher. And I wonder if you could give us maybe a bridge sort of like what you have on your Slide 12 as to what are the primary elements that help you get to that in terms of issues like resolving your IPR issues, geographic mix, product mix. If you could help us sort of walk to that what gets you to 14% or higher.

偉大的。首先，我想討論一下營業利潤率的長期預期。我想您已經談到了獲得 14% 或更高的比例。我想知道您是否可以為我們提供一個類似於幻燈片 12 上的橋樑，幫助您解決知識產權問題、地理組合、產品組合等問題的主要要素是什麼。如果您能幫助我們實現 14% 或更高的目標。

Okay. Thank you. This is, of course, a very large question and it should -- I mean it is worth a deeper discussion that is what is possible right here. But as a starting point, I would refer to the progress update that we provided in Q4 where we provided you with the aspirations we have for the operating margins across each of our businesses. So hopefully, that provides you with some context.

好的。謝謝。當然，這是一個非常大的問題，而且應該——我的意思是值得進行更深入的討論，這就是這裡可能發生的事情。但作為起點，我會參考我們在第四季度提供的進度更新，其中我們向您提供了我們對每項業務的營業利潤率的期望。希望這能為您提供一些背景信息。

But then in terms of the bridge, if I comment the 4 businesses just very briefly, and then I'm sure that there is an opportunity to go deeper later. But in MN, we have already meaningfully improved our product cost and general technology competitiveness. And that is, of course, fundamental to all of this. And that has been clearly going to the right direction. We are now receiving significantly better feedback from our customers compared to a couple of years ago. So now utilizing both the improved technology competitiveness and cost position. We have a clear ambition to gain market share and improve our scale and, of course, remaining disciplined on cost. And these factors combined with the maturing 5G product with gross margins, typically improving as this each generation matures gives us a foundation for going after the double-digit margin target that we have for MN.

但就橋樑而言，如果我只是非常簡短地評論這 4 項業務，那麼我確信稍後有機會進行更深入的探討。但在明尼蘇達，我們已經顯著提高了我們的產品成本和總體技術競爭力。當然，這是所有這一切的基礎。這顯然是在朝著正確的方向發展。與幾年前相比，我們現在從客戶那裡收到的反饋明顯更好。因此，現在要利用提高的技術競爭力和成本地位。我們有一個明確的目標，即獲得市場份額並擴大規模，當然，還要保持成本控制。這些因素與成熟的 5G 產品和毛利率相結合，通常隨著每一代產品的成熟而提高，為我們追求 MN 的兩位數利潤率目標奠定了基礎。

In Network Infrastructure, we are very much focused on growth. We have strong product position, even in the challenging year we are seeing in 2023, as you can see from our margin assumption, which is 12% to 14% after 12.2% last year. We are hoping to see some improvement. So beyond that, it really comes down to achieving further scale and commercial discipline, especially in areas like Optical and Submarine Networks. In addition to that, I already -- as part of the previous answer, I talked about the strategy to expand in IP networks. So NI, clearly going to the right direction despite the short-term challenges we are seeing with some large customers, especially in North America this year.

在網絡基礎設施方面，我們非常關注增長。即使在 2023 年充滿挑戰的一年中，我們也擁有強大的產品地位，這一點從我們的利潤率假設中可以看出，去年為 12.2%，目前為 12% 至 14%。我們希望看到一些改進。除此之外，這實際上取決於實現進一步的規模和商業紀律，特別是在光纖和海底網絡等領域。除此之外，作為之前回答的一部分，我已經談到了 IP 網絡擴展的策略。因此，儘管我們看到一些大客戶（尤其是今年在北美的客戶）面臨短期挑戰，但 NI 顯然正在朝著正確的方向前進。

CNS, we have been working through our portfolio rebalancing efforts. The latest one you now saw, which was the partnership with Red Hat. And this is putting us on a path to improve our margins in the business. And of course, we have strong margin improvement targets going forward as we communicated as part of the Q4 result. CNS obviously is a software business, which is developing towards new business models such as as-a-service -- Software as a Service.

CNS，我們一直在努力進行投資組合再平衡。您現在看到的最新一項是與紅帽的合作。這使我們走上了提高業務利潤率的道路。當然，正如我們在第四季度業績中所傳達的那樣，我們有強大的利潤率改善目標。 CNS顯然是一個軟件業務，它正在向新的業務模式發展，例如as-a-service——軟件即服務。

And then finally, Technologies. Obviously, we plan to get back to the EUR 1.4 billion to EUR 1.5 billion run rate. We have to remember that this is 100% gross margin business. So there is a direct contribution from any additional sales. And as Marco mentioned, what we need to get to that EUR 1.4 billion to EUR 1.5 billion, remembering that we are currently at EUR 1.1 billion now after the latest deals that we have signed EUR 1.1 billion from the beginning of '24, what we really need to get there is to finalize the smartphone renewal cycle, including finalizing the -- or solving the ongoing litigations with OPPO and Vivo and their expected continued progress in some of the growth segments where we have really promising stuff going on as well. And this would take us to the EUR 1.4 billion to EUR 1.5 billion.

最後是技術。顯然，我們計劃回到 14 億至 15 億歐元的運行速度。我們必須記住，這是毛利率100%的業務。因此，任何額外銷售都會產生直接貢獻。正如 Marco 提到的，我們需要達到 14 億至 15 億歐元，請記住，在我們從 24 年初簽署了 11 億歐元的最新協議之後，我們目前的規模為 11 億歐元，我們真正需要實現的是最終確定智能手機更新周期，包括最終確定或解決與 OPPO 和 Vivo 正在進行的訴訟，以及他們在一些增長領域的預期持續進展，在這些增長領域我們也有真正有前途的東西。這將使我們達到 14 億至 15 億歐元。

So roughly -- I mean, these are the elements in the bridge that would take us to that at least 14% group margin, but I understand there is a lot more detail that we could discuss. But unfortunately, we have to do that another time.

粗略地說，我的意思是，這些是橋樑中的要素，可以使我們達到至少 14% 的集團利潤，但我知道我們還有更多細節可以討論。但不幸的是，我們必須再做一次。

Did you have a quick follow-up?

您有快速跟進嗎？

Yes, quick follow-up, please. In terms of the IP routing segment relative shortfall this quarter and tough comp to last year, what do you attribute that to in terms of issues like customers absorbing inventory, customer concentration or changes in the competitive environment?

是的，請快速跟進。就本季度IP路由領域的相對短缺和與去年相比的艱難比較而言，您將其歸因於客戶吸收庫存、客戶集中度或競爭環境變化等問題？

It is not -- the last one, it is not a change in the competitive environment. If anything, our relative competitiveness has increased in that. We have an issue with customer concentration. I think it's fair to say that we are still in this business. We are too dependent on a small number of large customers. And then when you see investment slowdowns in a particular region like North America and the largest operators there, the result is the one that you now see in the IP numbers. This is why it is crucially important for the future outlook for the IP business that we do exactly what I was explaining earlier that we need to diversify the customer base to enterprise verticals to webscalers. What we need in that business is a larger number of customers and with a smaller concentration of -- or dependence on a small number of large customers.

這不是——最後一個，這不是競爭環境的變化。如果說有什麼不同的話，那就是我們的相對競爭力有所提高。我們存在客戶集中度的問題。我認為可以公平地說我們仍在從事這項業務。我們太依賴少數大客戶了。然後，當你看到北美等特定地區以及那裡最大的運營商的投資放緩時，結果就是你現在在 IP 數字中看到的結果。這就是為什麼對於 IP 業務的未來前景至關重要，我們必須按照我之前的解釋進行操作，即我們需要將客戶群多元化，從企業垂直領域到網絡規模擴大者。我們在該業務中需要的是更多的客戶，並且較少集中或依賴於少數大客戶。

Our next question from Joseph Zhou from Redburn.

我們的下一個問題來自 Redburn 的 Joseph Zhou。

I have two questions. I'll go one at a time. So firstly, for North America, which had a huge decline. And can you compare the current customer inventory level for Mobile Networks comparing that to the Fixed Networks side and also specifically within the Fixed Networks, the FWA versus fiber? And I think one of your peers suggested that for the mobile side, the CSPs, their inventories have come down from up to 4 quarters at a peak to 1 to 2 quarters, which is historical average now. And are you seeing the same? Are you seeing the inventory level at these customers at the kind of historical level now or not yet? That's the first question.

我有兩個問題。我一次就去一個。首先，北美市場出現了大幅下滑。您能否將移動網絡當前的客戶庫存水平與固定網絡方面進行比較，特別是在固定網絡中，FWA 與光纖？我認為你的一位同行建議，對於移動端，CSP，他們的庫存已經從高峰時的 4 個季度下降到 1 到 2 個季度，這是現在的歷史平均水平。你也看到同樣的情況嗎？您現在看到的這些客戶的庫存水平是否達到了歷史水平？這是第一個問題。

If I comment Mobile Networks, so first, of course, we have been seeing the same trend. We saw progress in there in inventory digestion during the second quarter. At some customers, we believe they have returned to more normal inventory levels already (inaudible), which will impact the second half outlook. So this is clear, but we do not believe that we are there yet.

如果我評論移動網絡，那麼首先，我們當然看到了同樣的趨勢。我們在第二季度看到了庫存消化方面的進展。對於一些客戶，我們認為他們已經恢復到更正常的庫存水平（聽不清），這將影響下半年的前景。所以這很清楚，但我們不相信我們已經做到了這一點。

Then the fixed side, of course, we have to remember when you go back in history, 2022, you would have seen extremely strong numbers in Fixed Networks. So that's why it's natural to expect some normalization in spending, and that's exactly what we are seeing right now.

然後是固定方面，當然，我們必須記住，當你回顧歷史時，2022 年，你會看到固定網絡中極其強勁的數字。因此，預計支出會出現一定程度的正常化是很自然的，而這正是我們現在所看到的。

One of the main drivers in the presentation, you saw the chart, which kind of highlighted the relative contribution of different product segments in Fixed Access, is clearly fixed wireless access. And in our case, that has been highly sensitive to a very small number of customers. And now especially in North America, now when those deployments are significantly more slow, there is inherently some volatility here. But overall, the demand for fiber is outlook is healthy across the world for fiber. That is clearly one of our strongest segments. We are a market leader in Optical (inaudible). And over the coming years, we will start to see the benefit from government funding. And I already referred to earlier, for example, to the bid program that the U.S. government is putting in the investment of tens of billions that will benefit these investments.

您看到了演示文稿中的主要驅動因素之一，該圖表突出顯示了固定接入中不同產品領域的相對貢獻，顯然是固定無線接入。就我們而言，這對極少數客戶高度敏感。現在尤其是在北美，當這些部署速度明顯減慢時，這裡本質上存在一些波動。但總體而言，全球纖維需求前景良好。這顯然是我們最強大的部分之一。我們是光學領域的市場領導者（聽不清）。未來幾年，我們將開始看到政府資助的好處。我之前已經提到過，比如美國政府正在投入數百億美元的申辦計劃，這將使這些投資受益。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Joseph?

約瑟夫，你有快速跟進嗎？

Yes. Just a quick follow-up on the OPPO, Vivo situation, and there has been a recent quarter ruling by the Indian Delhi High Court against OPPO. It has ordered OPPO to pay the India portion of the last patent licensing fees. And do you expect this to materialize? And what's the timing of this? Can you talk about the implications?

是的。快速跟進 OPPO、Vivo 的情況，印度德里高等法院最近一個季度做出了針對 OPPO 的裁決。它已責令 OPPO 支付最後一次專利許可費的印度部分。您預計這會實現嗎？這是什麼時間？您能談談其中的影響嗎？

Yes. Thank you, Joseph. Yes, that's correct. There was a positive outcome from Indian court. And as I said earlier, we remain confident about that we will have a positive outcome of OPPO and Vivo negotiations and litigations, and we are working to resolve these disputes with both companies. And I mentioned also earlier that not only India, but other courts in different parts of the world have had positive outcomes for our part. So we hope that the more we get this positive outcomes, the more clearer (inaudible) that we are filling (inaudible) that are (inaudible).

是的。謝謝你，約瑟夫。對，那是正確的。印度法庭得到了積極的結果。正如我之前所說，我們仍然相信 OPPO 和 Vivo 的談判和訴訟將會取得積極成果，我們正在努力解決與兩家公司的這些糾紛。我之前也提到過，不僅是印度，世界各地的其他法院都取得了積極的成果。因此，我們希望我們獲得的積極成果越多，我們所填補的（聽不清）就越清晰（聽不清）。

I think it's really important what Marco said here to understand that when it comes to OPPO and Vivo, we are not asking anything more than what we are asking some other customers. And the deals that we have made this year with Samsung and Apple are on those levels, which we have assumed as healthy targets when we put together this EUR 1.4 billion to EUR 1.5 billion target for run rate for mobile -- not mobile, but for technology. So those -- both of those deals R&D level that support those targets and (inaudible), we feel that it's fair to require similar levels from OPPO and Vivo as well.

我認為 Marco 在這裡所說的話非常重要，讓我們明白，當談到 OPPO 和 Vivo 時，我們所要求的只是我們對其他客戶的要求。今年我們與三星和蘋果達成的交易就處於這些水平，當我們為移動設備（不是移動設備，而是技術）制定 14 億至 15 億歐元的運行率目標時，我們認為這是健康的目標。因此，這兩項交易的研發水平都支持這些目標（聽不清），我們認為要求 OPPO 和 Vivo 達到類似水平是公平的。

So we'll take our next question from Richard Kramer from Arete.

我們將回答來自 Arete 的 Richard Kramer 的下一個問題。

Pekka, you clearly had visibility of the mix shift in mobile towards India and what that has done to the gross margin. But one thing we haven't heard you talk about is the extent to which the new product portfolio you announced will bake in cost reductions that support a return or a resumption of the kind of gross margins we saw last year. In other words, is the gross margin recovery in mobile dependent on regional mix? Or is there a product element to it with the new portfolio that you announced? And then I've got a quick follow-up on it.

Pekka，您清楚地了解了移動業務向印度的混合轉變以及這對毛利率的影響。但我們還沒有聽到您談論的一件事是，您宣布的新產品組合將在多大程度上降低成本，從而支持我們去年看到的毛利率的回報或恢復。換句話說，移動領域的毛利率復甦是否取決於區域組合？或者您宣布的新產品組合是否包含產品元素？然後我對其進行了快速跟進。

Yes, there is absolutely also a product in this. There is procurement cost and procurement actions, obviously, there is fundamental R&D actions. And of course, the new product generations that we have launched, they will continue to improve our cost position. But I don't think that this regional differences in margin profiles will go away. So the geographical component will also be there, but it's definitely not the only component.

是的，這裡面絕對也有產品。有採購成本和採購行動，顯然，有基本的研發行動。當然，我們推出的新一代產品將繼續改善我們的成本地位。但我認為這種利潤率的地區差異不會消失。所以地理成分也會存在，但它絕對不是唯一的成分。

Okay. And then my follow-up is on -- you've talked before about the book-to-bill. Can you talk about where that stands in the enterprise side, given that you're still growing but lapping good growth numbers from a year ago and you're increasing customer numbers? I'm just conscious that maybe these private wireless customers that you're announcing are much smaller deals, but maybe the book-to-bill extends much further into the future.

好的。然後我的後續行動是——你之前已經談到過從訂單到賬單的問題。鑑於您仍在增長，但與一年前相比增長良好，並且客戶數量正在增加，您能否談談企業方面的情況？我只是意識到，也許您宣布的這些私人無線客戶的交易規模要小得多，但從訂單到賬單的情況可能會延伸到更遠的未來。

We have a healthy pipeline of opportunities and a good backlog. Of course, like in any business, there can be some swings up and down. We saw really, really strong, as you remember, Q1 in terms of enterprise. Now we saw some normalization. But this is the business that we expect to continue to grow, and our goal is to see continued double-digit growth in Enterprise to reach at least double-digit percent of our sales. And as you saw the rolling -- in the rolling 12-month graph that we had, we are pretty close already to that. And that's what we announced as a short-term target last January. And then I think the way I put it in the presentation in January was that, first, we wanted to go to 10% and then to 20% and then to 30%. So this actual growth is definitely expected to continue going forward.

我們擁有良好的機會渠道和良好的積壓工作。當然，就像任何行業一樣，可能會有一些上下波動。正如您所記得的那樣，我們看到第一季度的企業業務非常非常強勁。現在我們看到了一些正常化。但這是我們預計將繼續增長的業務，我們的目標是看到企業業務持續兩位數增長，達到銷售額的至少兩位數百分比。正如您在我們的 12 個月滾動圖表中看到的那樣，我們已經非常接近這一點了。這就是我們去年一月宣布的短期目標。然後我認為我在 1 月份的演示中的表達方式是，首先我們想要達到 10%，然後是 20%，然後是 30%。因此，這種實際增長肯定會繼續下去。

We'll take our last question from Sami Sarkamies from Danske Bank.

我們將回答丹斯克銀行薩米·薩卡米斯的最後一個問題。

Just wanted to get some color on the product segments for Network Infrastructure. We are now estimating 100% market growth and sales growth below the group average. Do you expect sales growth in any of the segments on a full year basis? And at which segments should we expect a material decline relative to last year? I think you mentioned, for example, that you have become more positive on Optical Networks.

只是想了解一下網絡基礎設施的產品領域。我們現在預計市場增長率為 100%，且銷售額增長率低於集團平均水平。您預計全年任何細分市場的銷售額都會增長嗎？與去年相比，我們預計哪些細分市場會出現實質性下降？例如，我認為您提到您對光網絡變得更加積極。

Yes. I mean, we don't really give a detailed guidance for the full year on the subsegment level. But what I can say is that, if we look at how our expectations have changed during this year and also from Q1, our expectations for Optical have increased while the macro environment has led to a deterioration in the outlook for IP and fixed. So there is a structural change in our expectations within the NI business.

是的。我的意思是，我們並沒有真正在細分層面上給出全年的詳細指導。但我可以說的是，如果我們看看今年以及第一季度以來我們的預期發生了怎樣的變化，我們對光學的預期有所增加，而宏觀環境導致了IP和固定前景的惡化。因此，我們對 NI 業務的期望發生了結構性變化。

Did you have a quick follow-up, Sami?

薩米，你有快速跟進嗎？

Yes. Maybe regarding the new IPR deals that were recorded in Q2. How come this didn't sort of impact the IPO run rate?

是的。也許與第二季度記錄的新知識產權交易有關。為什麼這沒有影響 IPO 運行率？

Yes. Thank you, Sami. We signed a number of deals during the quarter, and different deals has a difference starting point as well. And that's why we are now saying that the annual run rate would be EUR 1.1 billion, considering the deals that we have signed during the quarter instead of the EUR 1 billion that we had in the end of quarter 1. And that's how we -- of course, this is not considering additional deals that we haven't signed yet.

是的。謝謝你，薩米。我們這個季度簽署了很多交易，不同的交易起點也不同。這就是為什麼我們現在說，考慮到我們在本季度簽署的交易，而不是第一季度末的 10 億歐元，年運行率為 11 億歐元。這就是我們的方式——當然，這不考慮我們尚未簽署的其他交易。

Yes. But okay, I'm just maybe wondering this EUR 80 million catch-up payment that -- did that actually result in higher IPR run rate during the second quarter relative to what you had in Q1?

是的。但是好吧，我可能只是想知道這 8000 萬歐元的追補付款是否真的導致第二季度的知識產權運行率相對於第一季度更高？

Yes, this is a catch-up. So this is referring to previous periods or other sales. So that's why we are seeing that it's the deals that we signed in the quarter that is affecting the EUR 1.1 billion run rate that we have now starting from January because of the different timings.

是的，這是一個追趕。所以這是指以前的時期或其他銷售。因此，我們發現，由於時間不同，我們在本季度簽署的交易影響了我們從 1 月份開始的 11 億歐元運行率。

So some of the EUR 80 million is excluded from the run rate. That is the point here.

因此，8000 萬歐元中的一部分被排除在運行費率之外。這就是重點。

Yes, I understand that, but I meant that did you have somewhat higher run rate in Q2 than in Q1?

是的，我明白，但我的意思是第二季度的運行率是否比第一季度更高？

Yes. Based on the new deals that we signed in quarter 2, the new run rate from 1st of January next year would imply that the new run rate is EUR 1.1 billion. And as I said, we have different starting points and different agreements, and that's why we are referring to 1st of January. Of course, our ambition is higher than EUR 1.1 billion, and that's why we are saying that this is subject to any other material developments such as closing some of the outstanding litigation and renewal discussions that we have.

是的。根據我們在第二季度簽署的新交易，從明年 1 月 1 日起的新運行費率意味著新的運行費率為 11 億歐元。正如我所說，我們有不同的出發點和不同的協議，這就是為什麼我們提到 1 月 1 日。當然，我們的目標高於 11 億歐元，這就是為什麼我們說這取決於任何其他重大進展，例如結束一些懸而未決的訴訟和續約討論。

Thank you, Sami, and thank you, everyone, for joining the call today and for Pekka and Marco for your time. Ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude today's call. I would like to remind you that during the call today, we have made a number of forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties. Actual results may therefore differ materially from the results currently expected. Factors that could cause such differences can be both external as well as internal operating factors. We have identified such risks in the Risk Factors section of our annual report on Form 20-F, which is available on our Investor Relations website. Thank you all for joining us today.

謝謝薩米，謝謝大家今天加入電話會議，也謝謝佩卡和馬可抽出寶貴的時間。女士們先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。我想提醒您，在今天的電話會議中，我們做出了一些涉及風險和不確定性的前瞻性聲明。因此，實際結果可能與當前預期的結果存在重大差異。可能導致這種差異的因素既可以是外部因素，也可以是內部運營因素。我們已在 20-F 表格年度報告的風險因素部分中識別出此類風險，該表格可在我們的投資者關係網站上獲取。感謝大家今天加入我們。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您可以斷開連接。