日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2023 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Hello. I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holdings. Welcome to our First Quarter 2023 Earnings Release. Thank you for attending our conference call today. Please refer to our Safe Harbor Notice on Page 2.

各位好。我是日月光投控投資人關係主管向肯。歡迎參加我們 2023 年第一季財報發布。感謝各位今天參與我們的電話會議。請參閱第 2 頁的安全港聲明。

All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation in this event. If participants do not consent, please disconnect at this time.

所有參與者透過參與本活動，即同意其聲音與提問將被廣播。若參與者不同意，請於此時中斷連線。

I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk, and our actual results may differ materially.

提醒各位，接下來的簡報可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述具有高度風險，我們的實際結果可能出現重大差異。

For the purposes of this presentation, our dollar figures are generally stated in new Taiwan dollars, unless otherwise indicated. As a Taiwan-based company, our financials are presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS. Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP.

就本簡報而言，除非另有說明，我們的金額一般以新台幣表示。作為一家以台灣為基地的公司，我們的財務報表係依台灣 IFRS 編製。以台灣 IFRS 呈列之結果，可能與採用其他會計準則之結果有重大差異，包括我們子公司依中國會計準則（Chinese GAAP）呈列之結果。

I am joined today by Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's call, I will be going over our financial results and outlook. Joseph will then be available to take your questions during the Q&A session to follow.

今天與我一同出席的還有我們的財務長 Joseph Tung。今天的電話會議將由我說明我們的財務結果與展望；接著 Joseph 將在隨後的問答環節回答各位問題。

During our year-end 2022 earnings release, we reported that the company and the overall semiconductor industry was entering a period of inventory digestion. We touched upon the impending soft environment and noted prognosticating outlooks can be incredibly difficult, especially when trying to spot the end of an inventory correction. Our business during the first quarter ran expectedly soft, given that we expected many customers were going to be drawing down product inventories. For the large part, our customers generally met their near-term plans. However, towards the end of the first quarter, when many customers reviewed their channel inventory relative to their expectations. They realized their inventory depletion was happening slower than anticipated.

在 2022 年年終財報發布時，我們提到公司以及整體半導體產業正進入庫存去化階段。我們也談到即將到來的疲弱環境，並指出要預測展望可能極其困難，尤其是在判斷庫存修正何時結束時。第一季我們的業務如預期偏弱，因為我們預期許多客戶將持續去化產品庫存。整體而言，客戶大致符合其短期計畫。然而，接近第一季末，當許多客戶檢視其通路庫存相對於原先預期時，發現庫存消化速度比預期更慢。

Apparently, end markets had not performed as they expected, whether it be poor Lunar New Year sell-through or a missing corporate IT refresh, sluggishness and excess inventory persisted. For our ATM factories, during the quarter, key equipment utilization rates were hovering slightly above 60%. And given these levels are near-term record lows, our factories focused on how to lower ongoing expenses. Working hours and bonuses were trimmed, raw materials pricing was scrubbed with our vendors, projects were reviewed and reprioritized, all in the name of costing down. However, the soft loading environment did allow us to continue automating factory lines, scaling up new product introductions and completing R&D projects.

顯然終端市場表現不如預期，無論是農曆新年銷售不佳，或企業 IT 換機潮缺席，市場疲弱與庫存過剩仍然持續。就我們的 ATM 廠而言，本季關鍵設備稼動率徘徊在略高於 60% 的水準。由於此水準接近短期歷史低點，我們的工廠著重於降低持續性費用：縮減工時與獎金、與供應商重新檢視原物料價格、檢討並重新排序專案優先順序，皆以降低成本為目標。然而，偏軟的載入環境也讓我們得以持續推動產線自動化、擴大新產品導入並完成研發專案。

Our EMS business entered into its seasonally soft period. The front half of the year generally acts as a preparation and buildup for the back half mass production builds. Our EMS business actually came in slightly better than our guidance last quarter. But as you will see, the overall macro environment did appear to have an impact, albeit somewhat smaller than the impact to our ATM business.

我們的 EMS 業務進入季節性淡季。上半年通常是為下半年量產建置做準備與累積的期間。實際上，我們的 EMS 業務表現略優於上季指引。但如各位將看到的，整體總體環境確實帶來影響，雖然其影響程度較 ATM 業務略小。

With that, please turn to Page 3, where you will find our first quarter consolidated results. For the first quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of TWD 1.30 and basic EPS of TWD 1.36. Consolidated net revenues declined 26% sequentially and 9% year-over-year. We had a gross profit of TWD 19.3 billion with a gross margin of 14.8%. Our gross margin declined 4.4 percentage points sequentially and 4.9 percentage points year-over-year. The margin declines are principally the result of inventory digestion and a weak macro environment.

接下來請翻到第 3 頁，您將看到第一季合併財務結果。第一季我們的完全稀釋後每股盈餘為新台幣 1.30 元，基本每股盈餘為新台幣 1.36 元。合併淨營收季減 26%、年減 9%。毛利為新台幣 193 億元，毛利率為 14.8%。毛利率季減 4.4 個百分點、年減 4.9 個百分點。毛利率下滑主要是庫存去化與疲弱的總體環境所致。

Our operating expenses declined TWD 2.7 billion sequentially and TWD 0.7 billion annually. The declines were primarily attributable to lower profit sharing expenses across the company. Our operating expense percentage increased 0.8 percentage points sequentially and 0.3 percentage points year-over-year to 8.9%. The operating expense percentage increases were primarily related to lower revenues during the quarter.

營業費用季減新台幣 27 億元、年減新台幣 7 億元。下降主要歸因於公司整體較低的員工分紅費用。營業費用率上升 0.8 個百分點（季比）與 0.3 個百分點（年比）至 8.9%。營業費用率上升主要與本季營收較低有關。

Operating profit was TWD 7.7 billion, down TWD 12.1 billion sequentially and TWD 8.4 billion year-over-year. Operating margin was 5.9%, declining 5.2 percentage points sequentially and 5.3 percentage points year-over-year. During the quarter, we had a net non-operating gain of TWD 0.2 billion. This amount includes net interest expense of TWD 1.1 billion.

營業利益為新台幣 77 億元，季減新台幣 121 億元、年減新台幣 84 億元。營業利益率為 5.9%，季減 5.2 個百分點、年減 5.3 個百分點。本季我們的營業外淨收益為新台幣 2 億元，其中包含淨利息費用新台幣 11 億元。

Tax expense for the quarter was TWD 1.8 billion. The effective tax rate for the quarter was 22.6%. The rate variance during the quarter was largely due to incremental controlled foreign company tax expenses. We believe that our annual tax rate will be between 20.5% to 21%.

本季所得稅費用為新台幣 18 億元，有效稅率為 22.6%。本季稅率變動主要來自新增的受控外國公司（CFC）稅負費用。我們預期全年稅率將介於 20.5% 至 21%。

Net income for the quarter was TWD 5.8 billion, representing a decline of TWD 9.9 billion sequentially and TWD 7.1 billion year-over-year.

本季淨利為新台幣 58 億元，季減新台幣 99 億元、年減新台幣 71 億元。

The NT dollar appreciated 3.05% against the U.S. dollar during the first quarter. From a sequential perspective, we estimate the NT dollar appreciation had a 0.8 percentage point negative impact to the company's gross and operating margins. From a year-over-year perspective, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a 2.63 percentage point positive impact to gross and operating margins. As a rule of thumb, for every percent the NT dollar appreciates, we see a corresponding 0.29 percentage point impact to our holding company gross margin.

第一季新台幣兌美元升值 3.05%。以季比角度，我們估計新台幣升值對公司毛利率與營業利益率造成 0.8 個百分點的負面影響。以年比角度，我們估計新台幣貶值對毛利率與營業利益率帶來 2.63 個百分點的正面影響。以經驗法則而言，新台幣每升值 1%，我們控股公司毛利率約會受到 0.29 個百分點的影響。

On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items without the inclusion of PPA-related expenses. Consolidated gross profit, excluding PPA expenses, would be TWD 20.3 billion with a 15.5% gross margin. Operating profit would be TWD 8.9 billion with an operating margin of 6.8%. Net profit would be TWD 7 billion with a net margin of 5.3%. Basic EPS, excluding PPA expenses, would be TWD 1.63.

在本頁下方，我們提供未包含 PPA 相關費用的損益關鍵項目。若排除 PPA 費用，合併毛利將為新台幣 203 億元，毛利率為 15.5%。營業利益將為新台幣 89 億元，營業利益率為 6.8%。淨利將為新台幣 70 億元，淨利率為 5.3%。若排除 PPA 費用，基本每股盈餘將為新台幣 1.63 元。

On Page 4 is a graphical presentation of our consolidated financial performance. You can see the impact of the current weak environment here. Unusually soft loading even for a correction environment are leading to lower revenues and a low utilization rate environment impacting our ATM and EMS businesses.

第 4 頁以圖表呈現我們的合併財務表現。您可以在此看到目前疲弱環境的影響。即使在修正期中仍出現異常偏軟的載入，導致營收下滑，而低稼動率環境也影響了我們的 ATM 與 EMS 業務。

On Page 5 is our ATM P&L. It is worth noting here that the ATM revenue reported here contains revenue eliminated at the holding company level related to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses. For the first quarter 2023, revenues for our ATM business were TWD 73.3 billion, down TWD 21 billion from the previous quarter and TWD 10.7 billion from the same period last year. This represents a 22% decline sequentially and a 13% decline year-over-year. This decline though steep, was in line with our outlook.

第 5 頁為我們的 ATM 損益表。值得注意的是，此處揭露的 ATM 營收包含在控股公司層級因 ATM 與 EMS 業務間之關係人交易而沖銷的營收。2023 年第一季，ATM 業務營收為新台幣 733 億元，較前一季減少新台幣 210 億元，較去年同期減少新台幣 107 億元，分別代表季減 22%、年減 13%。雖然降幅陡峭，但符合我們的展望。

Gross profit for our ATM business was TWD 14.7 billion, down TWD 11.5 billion sequentially and TWD 8.4 billion year-over-year. Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 20.1%, down 7.7 percentage points sequentially and 7.4 percentage points year-over-year. The overall margin declines are the result of lower loading due to customer inventory digestion and the weak macro environment.

ATM 業務毛利為新台幣 147 億元，季減新台幣 115 億元、年減新台幣 84 億元。ATM 業務毛利率為 20.1%，季減 7.7 個百分點、年減 7.4 個百分點。整體毛利率下滑係因客戶庫存去化與疲弱的總體環境導致載入量降低。

During the first quarter, operating expenses were TWD 8.3 billion, down TWD 2.1 billion sequentially and TWD 0.7 billion year-over-year. The declines in operating expenses were primarily driven by lower labor costs due to lower profit sharing and bonus accrual. Despite having significantly lower absolute operating expenses, their declines did not keep up with the pace that revenues declined. Our operating expense percentage for the quarter was 11.4%, up 0.4 percentage points sequentially and 0.6 percentage points year-over-year. During the first quarter, operating profit was TWD 6.4 billion, representing a decline of TWD 9.4 billion quarter-over-quarter and TWD 7.6 billion year-over-year. Operating margin was 8.7%, declining 8 percentage points sequentially and year-over-year.

第一季營業費用為新台幣 83 億元，季減新台幣 21 億元、年減新台幣 7 億元。營業費用下降主要由於員工分紅與獎金提列降低，致使人力成本下降。儘管營業費用絕對金額顯著降低，其降幅仍未能跟上營收下滑的速度。本季營業費用率為 11.4%，季增 0.4 個百分點、年增 0.6 個百分點。第一季營業利益為新台幣 64 億元，較上季減少新台幣 94 億元、較去年同期減少新台幣 76 億元。營業利益率為 8.7%，季減與年減皆為 8 個百分點。

For foreign exchange, we estimate that the NT to U.S. dollar exchange rate had a 1.52 percentage point impact on our ATM sequential margins and a 4.55 percentage point impact on a year-over-year basis. Without the impact of PPA-related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 21.3% and operating profit margin would be 10.3%.

就外匯而言，我們估計新台幣兌美元匯率對我們 ATM 事業的毛利率（季比）影響為 1.52 個百分點，年比影響為 4.55 個百分點。若不計入 PPA 相關折舊與攤銷的影響，ATM 毛利率將為 21.3%，營業利益率將為 10.3%。

On Page 6, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L. You'll note here the impact of a semi-fixed cost base with a low correction level loading.

在第 6 頁，您會看到我們 ATM 損益表的圖形化呈現。您可在此注意到半固定成本基礎在低修正水位稼動率下的影響。

On Page 7 is our ATM revenue by market segment. Even though the current softer loading environment is fairly broad-based, we do see the communications market segment inventory digestion to be more pronounced than other market segments.

第 7 頁為我們 ATM 依市場區隔的營收。儘管目前較疲弱的稼動環境相當廣泛，我們確實看到通訊市場區隔的庫存去化比其他市場區隔更為明顯。

On Page 8, you will find our ATM revenue by service type. There isn't a significant change here, but the advanced packaging side of the business is somewhat more impacted.

在第 8 頁，您會看到我們 ATM 依服務類型的營收。此處沒有顯著變化，但先進封裝業務受到的影響相對較大。

On Page 9, you can see the first quarter results of our EMS business and a graphical representation of its market segment allocation. During the quarter, demand was impacted by an overall weaker SiP demand environment, along with our typical seasonality. During the first quarter, EMS revenues were TWD 57.7 billion, declining TWD 26.2 billion or 31% sequentially and TWD 3.4 billion or 6% year-over-year.

在第 9 頁，您可以看到我們 EMS 業務第一季的結果，以及其市場區隔配置的圖形化呈現。本季需求受到整體較疲弱的 SiP 需求環境影響，並伴隨我們一貫的季節性因素。第一季 EMS 營收為新台幣 577 億元，季減新台幣 262 億元或 31%，年減新台幣 34 億元或 6%。

Our EMS business' gross margin declined 1.4 percentage points, while our operating margin sequentially declined 2.4 percentage points. These sequential declines were primarily driven by seasonally soft loading and, to a smaller extent, a soft electronics demand environment.

我們 EMS 業務的毛利率下滑 1.4 個百分點，營業利益率季比下滑 2.4 個百分點。這些季比下滑主要由季節性稼動偏弱所致，另有較小部分來自電子需求環境疲弱。

Our EMS first quarter operating profit was TWD 1.3 billion, down TWD 2.7 billion sequentially and TWD 0.9 billion annually. Given the overall quarter decline significantly as compared to last quarter, the percentage share information here may be somewhat biased.

我們 EMS 第一季營業利益為新台幣 13 億元，季減新台幣 27 億元，年減新台幣 9 億元。由於本季相較上季的整體下滑幅度顯著，此處的占比資訊可能會略有偏差。

For our EMS market segment, our Consumer and Communication segments declined off of their seasonal peaks into their typical trough periods, while our Computing segment was also impacted by inventory corrections. Our Industrial and Automotive segments were more resilient and flattish on an absolute dollar perspective. But from a percentage of business perspective, the relative percentage share increased sharply. It is worth noting here that from a year-over-year perspective, our Automotive segment grew close to 30% year-over-year.

就 EMS 市場區隔而言，我們的消費性與通訊區隔自其季節性高峰回落至典型低谷期間，而運算區隔亦受到庫存修正影響。工業與車用區隔相對更具韌性，以絕對金額觀點大致持平；但以業務占比觀點，其相對占比則大幅提升。值得注意的是，以年比觀點，我們車用區隔年增接近 30%。

On Page 10, you will find key line items from our balance sheet. At the end of the quarter, we had cash, cash equivalents and current financial assets of TWD 68.4 billion. Our total interest-bearing debt was down TWD 12 billion to TWD 190.3 billion. Total unused credit lines amounted to TWD 337.2 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was TWD 23.8 billion. Net debt to equity was 42% at the end of the quarter.

在第 10 頁，您會看到我們資產負債表的主要科目。季末我們的現金、約當現金及流動金融資產為新台幣 684 億元。我們的有息負債總額減少新台幣 120 億元至新台幣 1,903 億元。未動用授信額度合計為新台幣 3,372 億元。本季 EBITDA 為新台幣 238 億元。季末淨負債對權益比為 42%。

On Page 11, you will find our equipment capital expenditures. Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the first quarter in U.S. dollars totaled $231 million, of which $101 million were used in packaging operations, $90 million in testing operations, $32 million in EMS operations and $8 million in interconnect material operations and others. Given the overall slowdown within the industry, we are taking incremental action to push out more of our originally planned capital expenditures during the year. However, we will continue to spend on implementing incremental automation capabilities, including additional investments in our lights out factories. Current EBITDA was USD0.9 billion relative to our capital expenditures of $0.2 billion.

在第 11 頁，您會看到我們的設備資本支出。第一季以美元計之機器設備資本支出合計 2.31 億美元，其中 1.01 億美元用於封裝作業、0.90 億美元用於測試作業、0.32 億美元用於 EMS 作業，以及 0.08 億美元用於連接材料作業及其他。鑑於產業整體放緩，我們正採取額外行動，將原先規劃於今年的部分資本支出進一步遞延。然而，我們仍將持續投入以導入更多自動化能力，包括對我們無人工廠（lights out factories）的額外投資。本期 EBITDA 為 9 億美元，相對於資本支出 2 億美元。

For our outlook, we will first address our EMS business. Our EMS business will continue its typically soft season during the first half of the year. However, based on continued relative strength within its Automotive business, paired with some order improvement in our Consumer and Computing segments, we are looking for a slight pickup in business during the second quarter relative to the first. Similarly, margins should move off our expected trough and improve roughly 50 basis points. From a longer perspective, we continue to expect a strong ramp during the third quarter with the peak during the fourth quarter, primarily driven by new product launches.

就展望而言，我們將先談 EMS 業務。EMS 業務在上半年將延續其一貫的淡季表現。然而，基於車用業務持續相對強勁，並搭配消費性與運算區隔訂單有所改善，我們預期第二季相較第一季業務將小幅回升。同樣地，利潤率應可自預期低點回升並改善約 50 個基點。從較長期的角度來看，我們仍預期第三季將強勁爬坡，並於第四季達到高峰，主要由新產品上市所帶動。

Continuing our earlier comments about our ATM business. At the end of the first quarter, what became more apparent was that the expected improvement in the macroeconomic environment did not materialize. Instead, world government's continued aggressive policy trying to curb hyperinflation. Unintendedly, this even led to separate banking crisis in the U.S. and surprisingly, in Switzerland. Meanwhile, more and more consumers and businesses around the world are grappling with spreading higher energy prices that initially stemmed from supply shocks related to the Russia-Ukraine war. And rather than seeing an overall post-COVID recovery and a return of electronic spending during and post the Lunar New Year, we, along with our customers, saw consumers instead catching up on spending on other items like services, travel and leisure.

延續我們先前對 ATM 業務的評論。第一季末更為明顯的是，原先預期的總體經濟環境改善並未實現。相反地，各國政府持續採取強勢政策以抑制惡性通膨，無意間甚至導致美國以及令人意外的瑞士出現各自的銀行危機。同時，全球愈來愈多的消費者與企業正面臨能源價格上漲的擴散效應，而該上漲最初源自俄烏戰爭相關供給衝擊。且我們並未看到整體的後疫情復甦，以及農曆新年前後電子產品支出回流；相反地，我們與客戶看到消費者轉而補回在其他項目上的支出，例如服務、旅遊與休閒。

It should be noted that our customer sell-through of their devices are generally not visible to us. And usually, inventory draw and replenishment are in sync. With this current inventory digestion period, customers are selling inventory without the action of replenishing inventory, which gives us even less visibility. With wafer banks fully loaded, we basically can only wait for our customers' signal to restart production. And given the lack of recovery, a broad set of customers have communicated to us that their restocking will most likely happen later than anticipated. What was originally scheduled to ramp during the May, June time frame now has been pushed back into the third quarter.

需要指出的是，我們通常無法掌握客戶終端裝置的實際銷售（sell-through）情況。一般而言，庫存去化與補庫會同步進行。但在目前這段庫存消化期間，客戶在銷售庫存的同時並未進行補庫，使我們的能見度更低。在晶圓庫（wafer banks）滿載的情況下，我們基本上只能等待客戶發出重啟生產的訊號。且在缺乏復甦的情況下，廣泛的客戶群已向我們表示，其補庫很可能會晚於原先預期。原本預計於 5、6 月爬坡的時程，現已延後至第三季。

On a somewhat more positive note, we do see some level of rush orders sporadically happening across our ATM factories. We remain optimistic and expect that rush orders should continue to rise during the second quarter as various product restocking and new product launches start to happen. However, with a large amount of orders being pushed out for the second quarter as a whole, we expect continued sluggishness and a suboptimal loading environment. As a result, we effectively see revenues much the same as the first quarter.

較為正面的部分是，我們確實看到在各 ATM 廠區不時出現一定程度的急單。我們仍保持樂觀，並預期隨著各類產品補庫與新產品上市開始發生，第二季急單應會持續增加。然而，由於第二季整體仍有大量訂單被遞延，我們預期稼動仍將偏疲弱、載入環境不理想。因此，我們實際上預期營收將與第一季大致相當。

From our cost perspective, we are actively pursuing various avenues to trim costs, including expanding our automation efforts. However, given the higher utility rates instituted by the Taiwan government effective April 1, increasing electricity rates by 17% and the higher summer rates in the back half of the second quarter, our utility costs will rise sequentially. We currently see the rate increase and the start of the summer rate season is expected to have a 0.5 percentage point negative impact to our gross margin when compared to the first quarter. However, we are hopeful that a number of cost savings efforts will bear fruit during the quarter, and we will be able to offset most, if not all, of the impact of the utility rate increases. Such offset is not guaranteed, but we are targeting to keep our gross margin at a similar level with the first quarter.

從成本面來看，我們正積極透過多種途徑削減成本，包括擴大自動化努力。然而，鑑於台灣政府自 4 月 1 日起實施較高的公用事業費率，電價上調 17%，以及第二季後半段進入較高的夏季電價，我們的公用事業成本將呈現季增。我們目前認為，電價調升與夏季電價季節的開始，相較第一季將對毛利率造成 0.5 個百分點的負面影響。不過，我們希望多項成本節省措施能在本季開花結果，使我們得以抵銷大部分、甚至全部的電價上調影響。此種抵銷並非保證，但我們的目標是將毛利率維持在與第一季相近的水準。

And if we step back and look at the bigger picture at this point. Despite all the distracting noise related to this correction, we believe we are in the process of proving that we have a [fundamentally] improved business. We've already seen higher margins through the cycle peak. Now, we are seeing structurally higher trough margins going through the cycle bottom. We are seeing pricing resiliency and the minimization of irrational competition. We also see our scale of manufacturing continue to give us competitive advantages in the form of lower manufacturing costs, thereby maintaining customer resilience. We basically see an industry possessing a wider moat with ASE outpacing its competition.

若我們退一步從更宏觀的角度來看。儘管這次修正帶來許多分散注意力的雜音，我們相信我們正處於證明自身已在[根本上]改善業務體質的過程中。我們已在景氣循環高峰看到更高的利潤率；如今在景氣循環底部，我們也看到結構性更高的谷底利潤率。我們看到定價韌性，以及非理性競爭的最小化。我們也看到製造規模持續帶來較低製造成本等競爭優勢，從而維持客戶黏著度。我們基本上看到產業護城河正在擴大，而 ASE 正以更快速度超越競爭對手。

We would like to summarize our outlook for the second quarter as follows: for our ATM business in NT dollar terms, our ATM second quarter 2023 revenues and gross margin should be similar with the revenues and gross margin of the first quarter 2023. For our EMS business in NT dollar terms, our EMS second quarter 2023 revenues should increase mid-single-digit percentage-wise quarter-over-quarter. Our EMS second quarter 2023 operating margin should improve by 0.5 percentage points versus the first quarter 2023.

我們將第二季展望摘要如下：就 ATM 業務以新台幣計，2023 年第二季 ATM 營收與毛利率應與 2023 年第一季的營收與毛利率相近。就 EMS 業務以新台幣計，2023 年第二季 EMS 營收預期將季增中個位數百分比。2023 年第二季 EMS 營業利益率預期將較 2023 年第一季改善 0.5 個百分點。

This concludes our prepared remarks. I'd like to open the floor for Q&A.

以上為我們事先準備的發言。接下來我想開放現場進行問答。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question is from Mr. Randy Abrams of Credit Suisse.

（接線員指示）我們的第一個問題來自瑞士信貸（Credit Suisse）的 Randy Abrams 先生。

Okay. Yes. I wanted to ask the first question. If you could talk a little more about the outlook. First, for rush orders, if you could talk about the areas you're seeing rush orders? And then for the area of resilience, if you could go through the view, Automotive, if you see auto, and I think you mentioned Industrial, if you see those areas holding up?

好的。是的。我想先問第一個問題。想請您再多談一點對前景的看法。首先，關於急單（rush orders），可否談談您在哪些領域看到急單？另外，關於相對具韌性的領域，能否請您逐一說明，例如汽車（Automotive），您是否看到車用仍然撐得住？以及我想您也提到工業（Industrial），您是否看到這些領域仍能維持？

And the second part of that first question is for the spillover. How much do you see the weakness spilling into third quarter? Do you think we're back to normal seasonal third quarter? And what do you view as a reasonable normal for third quarter? So just curious that as well.

而第一個問題的第二部分是關於外溢效應（spillover）。您看到疲弱會外溢到第三季多少？您認為第三季會回到正常的季節性水準嗎？您認為第三季合理的「正常」水準應該是什麼？也想了解一下。

I think in terms of rush orders, I think we've been seeing sporadic rush orders in different areas, although more seems to be in the Consumer sector. We continue -- I think we believe that we will continue to see some rush orders coming in the second quarter as well. But in terms of its volume and magnitude, I think it's difficult to predict at this point. Overall, I think the overall market softness seems to be persisting into second quarter.

我想就急單而言，我們在不同領域都有看到零星的急單，不過看起來較多是在消費性（Consumer）領域。我們仍然——我想我們相信第二季也會持續看到一些急單進來。但就其量體與幅度而言，我認為現階段很難預測。整體來看，我認為市場整體的疲軟似乎會延續到第二季。

And going into third, I think we'll definitely see a rebound because of the new products being launched and some of the customers, as Ken pointed out, the restocking for new product launches will be starting in the third quarter. So we'll be seeing an uptick in third quarter. Although for the whole year, I think the overall situation is softer than what we have been expecting. I think in the beginning of the first quarter, we were projecting that we're kind of estimating that for the whole year, we could be seeing a flat year to high-single-digit decline in terms of our overall ATM revenue. But now we are of the view that the full year prospect should look like high-single to low-teen kind of a decline in the -- for the whole year.

至於進入第三季，我想我們一定會看到反彈，因為新產品將推出，而且如 Ken 所指出，部分客戶為了新產品上市而進行的補庫存將在第三季開始。因此第三季會看到上升。不過就全年而言，我認為整體情況比我們原先預期更疲弱。我想在第一季初，我們原本預估全年整體 ATM 營收可能是持平到高個位數下滑。但現在我們的看法是，全年展望應該會是高個位數到低十位數（low-teen）幅度的下滑——也就是全年。

And in terms of the Automotive, I think we have made very good progress in terms of expanding that part of the business, both from ATM, as well as an EMS perspective. I think that momentum is still going on. I think comparing to the other sectors, Automotive continues to be more resilient than the others. We are still -- we're expecting double-digit growth for this year, and we will continue to try to penetrate this market further through our automation of our factory and also expanding our product line or service offerings.

至於汽車（Automotive）方面，我想我們在擴展這部分業務上已取得非常好的進展，無論是從 ATM 或 EMS 的角度來看。我認為這股動能仍在持續。相較於其他產業別，車用持續展現出較高的韌性。我們仍然——我們預期今年會有雙位數成長，並且會持續透過工廠自動化，以及擴充產品線或服務內容，進一步滲透這個市場。

Okay. And second question, just on the cost structure, actually, good progress to bring it down the OpEx, especially ATM. It sounds like most of it was the bonus accrual. From this level, though, because you mentioned that ongoing cost reductions, how should we see the OpEx trending? Is there anything you've taken out beyond the bonus expense that brings it to a...

好的。第二個問題是關於成本結構。你們在降低營業費用（OpEx）方面其實進展不錯，尤其是 ATM。聽起來大部分是獎金提列（bonus accrual）的影響。不過從目前這個水準來看，因為你們提到還會持續降本，OpEx 的趨勢應該怎麼看？除了獎金費用之外，你們是否還有再拿掉其他項目，使其降到一個……

I think we're actually facing quite a challenging environment from the cost factor -- cost aspect. We're looking at higher material costs that we've -- that's continued to roll forward. And we're seeing higher utility costs. We're seeing higher net interest expenses because of the rate hike. So it's quite challenging, but we have been implementing quite a bit of our cost reduction programs throughout the factories. And we are kind of confident that we can maintain our OpEx ratio for ATM, as well as EMS businesses at the -- our target is to maintain the OpEx ratio at the same level as last year.

我想從成本因素——成本面來看，我們其實正面臨相當具挑戰的環境。我們看到較高的材料成本——這部分持續往後延續；也看到較高的公用事業成本；另外因為升息，我們的淨利息費用也更高。所以確實相當具挑戰性，但我們已在各工廠推動相當多的成本削減方案。我們也有信心能維持 ATM 與 EMS 業務的 OpEx 比率在目標水準——我們的目標是將 OpEx 比率維持在與去年相同的水準。

Our next question is from Mr. Gokul Hariharan of JPMorgan.

下一個問題來自摩根大通（JPMorgan）的 Gokul Hariharan 先生。

Right. First of all, could you talk a little bit more on where are the areas you're seeing, I think previously, we were looking for double-digit growth in Q2. Is it mainly in Communication that you're seeing the slower-than-expected momentum? Or is it a little bit more broad-based?

好的。首先，能否再多談一點你們看到的狀況？我想先前我們原本預期第二季會有雙位數成長。現在看到的動能不如預期，主要是出現在通訊（Communication）領域嗎？還是其實更為廣泛、較為全面？

And given that the pricing -- sorry, the weakness has been more persistent. Could you also give us some view on how you think about pricing? And what should we be expecting for CapEx this year? It looks like CapEx already come down a fair bunch in Q1, but maybe some outlook for CapEx this year?

另外，鑑於價格——抱歉，鑑於疲弱更為持續，能否也給我們一些你們對定價（pricing）的看法？以及今年資本支出（CapEx）我們應該預期如何？看起來第一季 CapEx 已經下降不少，但想請教今年 CapEx 的展望？

I think it's fair to say that we were banking on a better situation with the Communication sector, particularly when we're seeing most of the Taiwanese customers started the inventory digestion earlier. And -- but I think the overall macroeconomic situation did not improve and the end demand seems to be -- still remain to be soft. So we're seeing the softness persisting into second quarter. And hopefully, this will start to turn around in the third quarter.

我想可以說，我們原本是寄望通訊（Communication）產業的情況會更好，特別是我們看到多數台灣客戶較早開始進行庫存去化（inventory digestion）。但是——我想整體總體經濟情勢並未改善，終端需求似乎——仍然偏弱。因此我們看到疲弱延續到第二季。希望第三季會開始好轉。

I think the -- right now, we're still seeing low price elasticity, meaning that even we lower our prices, it doesn't really bring us more volume. So I think at this point, we still think the pricing is resilient, particularly for -- in our case, being the preferred vendor of our customers, I think the -- we are more resilient in protecting our pricing. We will continue to pursue or seek for sort of a pricing structure to meet both our customers and ourselves meeting our goals and try to protect our margin and return better.

我想——目前我們仍看到價格彈性（price elasticity）偏低，也就是即使我們降價，也不會真的帶來更多的量。因此我想在這個時間點，我們仍認為定價具韌性，特別是——以我們的情況來說，作為客戶的首選供應商（preferred vendor），我想——我們在保護定價方面更具韌性。我們會持續推動或尋求一種定價架構，讓客戶與我們雙方都能達成目標，並盡力保護我們的毛利與報酬表現。

Got it. And could you also talk a little bit about the CapEx outlook for the year? And also, there were certain customers and funding capacity that you had some loading guarantees and loading arrangement agreements. How have those progressed given that the overall utilization, like Ken mentioned, is closer to the 60% mark? Are customers still kind of retaining those? Or you already renegotiated most of those? And if they are renegotiated, how do the terms look like today that maybe a year back?

了解。另外也能否談談今年 CapEx 的展望？還有，你們先前與部分客戶在產能與資金方面有一些帶有 loading 保證與 loading 安排的協議。考量到整體稼動率如 Ken 所提到大約在 60% 左右，這些協議的進展如何？客戶是否仍在維持那些安排？還是你們已經重新協商了大部分？如果已重新協商，現在的條款相較於一年前大概長什麼樣子？

I think the LTAs has served its purposes, has being run down per its expiring period. As I mentioned, we will continue to seek for sort of a pricing structure for -- to serve both our customers, as well as our own needs. In terms of CapEx, I think in the first quarter, we already mentioned that whole year CapEx for the year will be a few TWD 100 million lower than previous year. But at this point, given the softness persisting, we are lowering that CapEx budget by another couple of hundred million for the year.

我想長約（LTA）已達成其目的，並依其到期期間逐步到期、自然消化。如我所提到，我們會持續尋求一種定價架構——以同時滿足客戶以及我們自身的需求。至於 CapEx，我想我們在第一季已提到，全年 CapEx 會比前一年少幾億新台幣（TWD 100 million）左右。但在目前疲弱持續的情況下，我們將全年 CapEx 預算再下調數億新台幣。

And also the combination of the CapEx will be a bit different from we previously anticipated. I think right now, in terms of assembly, it will be about 53% of the overall and test. Last year, we have about 34% of our CapEx being spent on tests. The ratio will be reduced to about 25% for this year. In terms of material, we're maintaining at 3% to 4%. And for EMS, actually, we are expanding the CapEx because of the new projects that we are taking on, particularly in the automotive sector. So, the EMS CapEx will represent roughly 15% to 16% of our overall.

另外，CapEx 的組成也會與我們先前預期略有不同。我想目前在組裝（assembly）方面，約占整體的 53%；而測試（test）方面，去年我們約有 34% 的 CapEx 用於測試，今年該比重將降至約 25%。材料（material）方面，我們維持在 3% 到 4%。至於 EMS，因為我們承接了新專案、特別是在車用領域，所以我們其實會擴大 CapEx。因此 EMS 的 CapEx 約占整體的 15% 到 16%。

We have a question from Mr. Rick Hsu of Daiwa Securities.

我們有一個問題來自大和證券（Daiwa Securities）的 Rick Hsu 先生。

Joseph, can you hear me?

Joseph，你聽得到我嗎？

Yes, you're kind of breaking off. So -- yes, I can hear you now.

可以，不過你有點斷斷續續。所以——好，現在我聽得到你了。

Okay. Sorry for that. Technical issue here. Just want to double check on the housekeeping questions about your utilization rate of 60% roughly, that's for the Q1 across the board of your packaging and testing, right?

好的。抱歉，這邊有技術問題。我想確認一下例行性問題：你們大約 60% 的稼動率（utilization rate），是指第一季你們封裝與測試（packaging and testing）整體平均、全面性的水準，對嗎？

Pretty much it's across the board. I think the same level of utilization will persist into second quarter. And going into second half of the year, I think it was -- third quarter, it should substantially improve, and we're expecting at some point, the utilization rate should reach around 80% in the back half of the year.

差不多是全面性的。我想第二季也會維持在相同水準。進入下半年，我想——第三季應該會明顯改善；我們預期在下半年某個時間點，稼動率應可回升到大約 80% 左右。

Okay. Great. That's pretty helpful. And the second question is about your profitability, especially your gross margin. Would that still be above the pre-COVID 19 level? When you guys move into second half, when all the operations improve and the utilization rates go to the optimal level, is that still effective?

好的。很棒，這很有幫助。第二個問題是關於你們的獲利能力，特別是毛利率（gross margin）。當你們進入下半年、營運改善、稼動率回到較佳水準時，毛利率是否仍會高於 COVID-19 之前的水準？這樣的改善是否仍然有效？

I think our target is still try to maintain our gross profit margin to the new structural margin range of mid-20% to 30%. I think we still have a shot in maintaining that. But if the overall decline -- revenue decline exceeds around 10%, I think we could look at another 1% to 2% drop on this from our original target.

我認為我們的目標仍然是盡量將毛利率維持在新的結構性毛利率區間，也就是約 20% 中段到 30%。我認為我們仍有機會維持在這個水準。但如果整體下滑——營收下滑幅度超過約 10%，我認為相較於我們原先的目標，毛利率可能會再下滑約 1% 到 2%。

We have a question from Laura Chen of Citigroup. Next question is from Brad Lin of BOA.

我們有一個來自花旗的 Laura Chen 的問題。下一題來自美銀的 Brad Lin。

I have 2 questions. One is on the testing part. So the mix of our CapEx on the testing lowered to around 25%. I remember last time we talked about that, we would like this testing business to be one of our key drivers going forward. So, well, would you please discuss what were the barriers there? And what changed the mind for our testing business target? And then -- that's my first question.

我有兩個問題。第一個是關於測試（testing）這一塊。我們在測試方面的資本支出（CapEx）占比降到大約 25%。我記得上次我們談到時，我們希望測試業務成為未來的關鍵成長動能之一。所以，能否請您說明當時有哪些障礙？以及是什麼改變了我們對測試業務目標的想法？——這是我的第一個問題。

Yes. I think our drive into test business is continuing, although there will be periodic modifications or revisions in our CapEx plan based on the current capacity, as well as the incoming demand for our services. So, there will be periodic or adjustments in terms of CapEx. But the overall goal remains the same. We'll continue to build that part of the business. And we still believe that the potential of test business is greater than assembly. And our target remains that we want to bring our test business to its historical peak of about 18% of our overall ATM business.

是的。我認為我們推進測試業務的方向仍在持續，雖然我們會根據目前產能狀況以及服務需求的進入情況，對資本支出計畫做階段性的修改或調整。因此在 CapEx 方面會有定期的調整。但整體目標不變，我們會持續建置這一塊業務。我們仍然相信測試業務的潛力大於封裝（assembly）。我們的目標仍是把測試業務拉回到過去的歷史高峰，也就是約占我們整體 ATM 業務的 18%。

Got it. And my second question will be on the ABF substrate. So last time we mentioned that the ABF supply improved, but not completely loosened. And would you please tell us that what will it be like for the second half of the year with the potential demand rebound?

了解。第二個問題是關於 ABF 載板。上次我們提到 ABF 供應有改善，但還沒有完全鬆綁。能否請您說明，在下半年若需求可能反彈的情況下，ABF 供應會是什麼狀況？

I think most of the items returned to a normal lead time, and we are not seeing further ABF constrain at this point. And if we look at the second half, I think ABF should not be -- should not continue to be a constraint for us now.

我認為大多數品項的交期已回到正常水準，目前我們沒有看到進一步的 ABF 供應限制。如果看下半年，我認為 ABF 現在不應該——不應該再繼續成為我們的限制因素。

Our next question is from Laura Chen of Citigroup.

下一個問題來自花旗的 Laura Chen。

Can you hear me?

聽得到我嗎？

Yes.

聽得到。

My line just dropped previously. I got a question on the automotive revenue. I'm just wondering, do you have any breakdown between the ATM and also the EMS business of your automotive sales? And also, do you see any potential softness would happen in second half, since some of the foundry makers they cited earlier, like automotive orders seems to be slowing down into second half and also the IDMs, their inventory level and also lead time since also kind of slower, right? I'm just wondering your view on the automotive business so far seems to be resilient at the moment. But do you see any potential softness into second half?

我剛剛線路掉了。我有一個關於車用營收的問題。我想請問，你們的車用銷售在 ATM 與 EMS 業務之間，有沒有更細的拆分？另外，你們是否看到下半年可能出現一些轉弱？因為一些晶圓代工廠先前提到，車用訂單似乎在下半年放緩，IDM 的庫存水位以及交期也有變慢的情況，對吧？我想了解你們對車用業務的看法：目前看起來仍相對具韌性，但你們是否看到下半年可能出現轉弱？

For last year, I think the overall automotive revenue for us is over TWD 1.6 billion, with the split from ATM -- between ATM and EMS, ATM is close to TWD 1 billion. EMS is over -- close to -- somewhere close to TWD 700 million. And we're expecting this part of the business to have a relatively resilient growth for the year, and we're still looking at double-digit growth for both EMS and ATM.

以去年來看，我們整體車用營收超過新台幣 16 億元，其中 ATM 與 EMS 的拆分——ATM 接近新台幣 10 億元；EMS 超過——接近——大約接近新台幣 7 億元。我們預期這一塊業務今年仍會有相對具韌性的成長，我們仍然看好 EMS 與 ATM 兩者都能有雙位數成長。

And as -- in terms of the overall automotive business prospect, I think there is a lot of noises so far from our own forecast or from the business outlook that we are seeing from our end. I think it still looks very resilient. And I think part of the reason is that we are -- aside from the organic growth, we are also gaining shares in this part of the business. So, there may or may not be some softness going into the second half of the year. But as far as our own business, I think the combination of organic as well as share gaining, I think that's really the [lay] of the prospect for us in terms of our automotive business.

至於整體車用業務前景，我認為目前市場上有很多雜音，但就我們自己的預測或我們端所看到的業務展望來看，仍然非常具韌性。我認為部分原因是，除了內生成長之外，我們也在這一塊業務持續取得市占。因此，下半年可能會或可能不會有一些轉弱；但就我們自身業務而言，內生成長加上市占提升的組合，我認為這就是我們車用業務前景的主要基調。

Okay. And my second question is also about the ATM business. We know that, given the weakness, we probably will slow down the CapEx expansion in this space. But on the other hand, we are seeing like a high-computing PC or AI, the trend seems to be more structured. So from ASE Group perspective, just wondering that what's your position now? And any chance you may also break into these, like AI chip or a high-computing PC, maybe find some way to cooperate with the foundry makers or to pursue your own solution? So can you elaborate more on your strategy and your business plan on this space?

好的。第二個問題也是關於 ATM 業務。我們知道在需求疲弱的情況下，我們可能會放慢在這一塊的資本支出擴張。但另一方面，我們看到像高運算 PC 或 AI 的趨勢似乎更具結構性。從 ASE 集團的角度來看，想請問你們目前的定位是什麼？以及你們是否有機會切入例如 AI 晶片或高運算 PC，可能透過與晶圓代工廠合作，或是尋求你們自己的解決方案？能否更進一步說明你們在這一領域的策略與業務規劃？

I think the AI chips definitely presents a good potential for us, although this is still at a very early stage. And so we cannot -- it's kind of difficult to quantify the impact. But as a whole, I think it does create a good business potential for us, both in terms of the so-called advanced packaging and test, but also for the peripheral chips that requires traditional packaging test. They all fall into our strength, and we believe that creates a good opportunity for us going forward.

我認為 AI 晶片確實為我們帶來不錯的潛力，雖然目前仍在非常早期的階段，因此我們還無法——很難量化其影響。但整體而言，我認為它確實為我們帶來良好的商機，無論是在所謂的先進封裝與測試，或是需要傳統封裝測試的周邊晶片，這些都屬於我們的強項，我們相信這將為我們未來帶來很好的機會。

In terms of the ultra-advanced type of packaging, I think, for any type of new product technology, I think, because of the characteristics of it, because some -- most of these new packaging is more of a wafer process. So, we believe in the earlier stage, it should be the foundries that are taking the lead in developing this technology. Whereas when we come in, we need to wait until these applications becomes -- has a wider adoption. And with the volume becomes a real volume production type of business, then there will be a natural division of works between us and the foundries. So, I think it's a good opportunity, and we do have a natural migration of technology from foundry to OSAT players, including us. And in this environment, I think, being the largest and the most technologically advanced OSAT player in the field, I think we will gain the most potential from this business.

就超先進封裝而言，我認為任何新產品技術，由於其特性——因為這些新型封裝多半更偏向晶圓製程——我們相信在早期階段，應該會由晶圓代工廠主導開發這項技術。而我們介入時，需要等到這些應用有更廣泛的採用，且量產規模成為真正的量產型業務之後，屆時我們與晶圓代工廠之間就會自然形成分工。因此我認為這是很好的機會，而且確實存在技術從晶圓代工廠向 OSAT 業者（包括我們）自然移轉的趨勢。在這樣的環境下，我認為作為業界規模最大、技術最先進的 OSAT 業者，我們將能從這項業務中獲得最大的潛在收益。

Our next question is from Sunny Lin of UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀的 Sunny Lin。

Could you hear me?

聽得到我嗎？

Yes.

聽得到。

So my first question is on second half. Just want to better understand the trajectory of your recovery. So, I think, Joseph, earlier you mentioned for your IC ATM utilization rate, they get back to 80% or higher in late this year. And so I understand it's still a bit early, but based on your current communication with the customers, would you expect a similar recovery pace for Q3 and Q4? Or do you think potentially it will be very back-end loaded, meaning Q4, the recovery will be a lot more significant?

我的第一個問題是關於下半年。我想更清楚了解你們復甦的軌跡。我記得 Joseph 先前提到，你們 IC ATM 的稼動率在今年稍晚會回到 80% 或更高。我知道現在還有點早，但根據你們目前與客戶的溝通，你們是否預期 Q3 與 Q4 的復甦速度會類似？還是你們認為可能會比較偏向後段，也就是 Q4 的復甦會明顯更強？

I think the -- it should be third quarter being the highest sequential growth rate. And then going to fourth quarter, we're still expecting growth on a quarterly basis, but to a lesser magnitude. But all in all, I think I already mentioned that from a whole year perspective. I think the softness -- because of this softer-than-expected second quarter, I think for the whole year, we're now taking a more conservative view from originally expecting a flat to high single-digit decline ATM revenue to high single-digit to mid-teens kind of a decline for the whole year. Low teens.

我認為——第三季應該會是季增率最高的一季。到了第四季，我們仍預期會有季增，但幅度會較小。整體而言，我想我先前也提到，以全年角度來看，因為第二季比預期更疲弱，我們對全年看法變得更保守：原本預期 ATM 營收全年持平到高個位數下滑，現在調整為高個位數到中十位數的下滑，約低十位數。

Got it. That's very helpful. So just to follow up. For second half, any particular areas that you're seeing better strength?

了解，這很有幫助。我再追問一下：下半年有沒有特定領域是你們看到相對更強的？

I'm sorry?

不好意思？

So for second half recovery, any particular applications that you're seeing better strength?

我是說，下半年復甦方面，有沒有特定應用是你們看到相對更強的？

I think it should be a broad-based recovery. I think a lot of the new products in all segments should be brought out. And I think the customer will resume to a restocking type of mode to meet these new product launches.

我認為應該會是全面性的復甦。我想各個領域都會有許多新產品推出。而我認為客戶也會恢復到補庫存的模式，以因應這些新產品上市。

Next question is from Szeho Ng of China Renaissance.

下一個問題來自華興資本的 Szeho Ng。

Joseph, 2 questions from my side. The first one, within the ATM business, what are the major applications that are driving the automotive momentum?

Joseph，我這邊有兩個問題。第一個，在 ATM 業務裡面，推動車用動能的主要應用是哪些？

Driving the automotive?

推動車用的？

Yes. Business within the ATM portfolio.

是的，在 ATM 產品組合裡的車用業務。

The IDMs, MCUs, sensors, infotainment processors, telematics, there's a pretty wide application. And for EMS, I think it's a large chunk of it -- a better chunk of it is for power module and power management type of products and also telematics and infotainment.

包括 IDM、MCU、感測器、車載資訊娛樂處理器（infotainment processors）、車聯網通訊（telematics），應用面相當廣。至於 EMS，我認為其中很大一部分——更大的一部分——是用在功率模組與電源管理類產品，另外也包括 telematics 與 infotainment。

I see. So basically, it's on the wire bond applications, right, for those products?

我了解。所以基本上，這是用在打線（wire bond）應用上，對吧，針對那些產品？

Yes. What?

是的。什麼？

Mostly on wirebond, right, for those products?

主要是在打線（wirebond）上，對吧，針對那些產品？

Right, right, at this point. And so it is migrating into flip chip as well.

對，對，目前是這樣。而且它也正在往倒裝晶片（flip chip）遷移。

I see. All right. Yes. Second question on the financial side, on the gearing ratio. Right now, the company has been driving down the gearing ratio to a quite healthy level. So is this something that we are comfortable? Or do we want to bring it down further?

了解。好。是的。第二個問題是財務面，關於負債比（gearing ratio）。目前公司已把負債比降到相當健康的水準。所以這個水準我們覺得可以接受嗎？還是希望再進一步降低？

We are comfortable with the current level, although the -- because of the rate hikes, I think the interest burden on us is increasing quite a bit. So if -- given the circumstances, I think we will try our best to continue to bring down our interest-bearing debt level so that we could have some savings on interest.

我們對目前的水準感到安心，不過——因為升息，我認為我們的利息負擔增加了不少。所以在這樣的情況下，我想我們會盡最大努力持續降低有息負債水位，這樣就能在利息支出上有一些節省。

Our next question is from Bruce Lu of Goldman Sachs.

下一個問題來自高盛（Goldman Sachs）的 Bruce Lu。

Can you hear me?

你聽得到我嗎？

Yes.

聽得到。

Okay. So, I want to follow-up a lot of questions, but I want to focus on the ARM-based CPU where you have higher market share. Do we see some kind of dollar content increase for you to do this kind of business, whether you get like better packaging ASP, a longer testing time or even have -- with level testing opportunities?

好的。我想追問很多問題，但我想聚焦在你們市占較高的 ARM 架構 CPU。就你們做這類業務而言，我們是否看到單顆晶片的美元含量（dollar content）提升？例如更高的封裝 ASP、更長的測試時間，甚至有——更高階的測試機會？

Like I said, it's in the early stage. We don't really have a number in our mind, except it's more complicated and it's more technologically advanced. So, I think the overall value should be -- or value content should be higher than the other chips involved. And also, I think, not just on these most advanced chips also to -- there will be also peripheral chips coming out using mature packaging. And that is also another good potential for us.

如我所說，這還在早期階段。我們腦中其實沒有一個明確數字，只知道它更複雜、技術也更先進。所以我認為整體價值——或價值含量——應該會高於其他相關晶片。另外，我想不只是這些最先進的晶片——也會有周邊晶片採用成熟封裝推出，這對我們也是另一個很好的潛在機會。

Right. Do you see emerging SLT business? Is that an ROE or accretive business for ASE?

了解。你們有看到新興的 SLT 業務嗎？這對 ASE 來說是提升 ROE 或具增益（accretive）的業務嗎？

SLT?

SLT？

System level testing.

系統級測試（System level testing）。

I need to get back to you on this. I'm not that familiar with it.

這個我需要再回覆你。我對這部分不是那麼熟悉。

Okay. Then I want to switch gear to another question for the -- do you consider to do some kind of like capacity expansion in United States, given there it's like tear-and-stack approach from the government?

好的。那我換個方向問另一個問題——鑑於美國政府那邊有點像「胡蘿蔔加大棒」的做法，你們是否考慮在美國進行某種產能擴張？

Well, we're not ruling out anything. I think we're evaluating different options, trying to find a suitable option for us, not just in the US, but also in the other part of the world. As you know, we do have worldwide footprints and we are expanding in Singapore and Malaysia and in Korea as well in terms of ATM. And we are expanding from EMS perspective, expanding in Vietnam, Poland, some other areas. So, we'll continue to monitor the situation and trying to find a suitable option for us to meet our customer's request and also to move to meet the overall kind of environment, geopolitical environment type of requirements.

嗯，我們不排除任何可能。我想我們正在評估不同選項，試著找出適合我們的方案，不只是在美國，也包括世界其他地區。如你所知，我們在全球都有據點；在 ATM 方面，我們也正在新加坡、馬來西亞以及韓國擴張。同時從 EMS 的角度，我們也在越南、波蘭以及其他一些地區擴張。所以我們會持續觀察情勢，並嘗試找出適合我們的方案，以滿足客戶的要求，同時也因應整體環境、地緣政治環境等方面的需求。

(Operator Instructions) Our next question is from Charlie Chan, Morgan Stanley.

（接線員指示）下一個問題來自摩根士丹利（Morgan Stanley）的 Charlie Chan。

So first of all, just some follow-ups to the previous questions. In terms of the advanced packaging, would the company consider to do some kind of wafer purchase for [Trimble] in the [poster]? Can I ask a follow-up question?

首先，針對前面問題做一些追問。就先進封裝而言，公司是否會考慮為 [Trimble] 在 [poster] 做某種晶圓採購？我可以再追問一個問題嗎？

Yes. I think there will be some kind of alliances with the wafer producers, and we already have the wafer process here.

可以。我認為會與晶圓供應商形成某種聯盟，而且我們這裡也已經有晶圓製程。

Okay. But this is still in early stage, as you just mentioned?

了解。但如你剛提到的，這仍在早期階段？

Yes.

是的。

Got it. And the next follow-up is to Sunny's question about utilization back to 80%. I think -- do you mean that by the end of this year, it will be 80% or at the beginning of second half, you can see? Yes, because just based on the utilization calculation, right, from 60% to 80%, it is like a 30% sequential growth. Can you clarify?

明白。下一個追問是關於 Sunny 提到稼動率回到 80%。我的理解是——你是指到今年年底會到 80%，還是說在下半年初就能看到？因為就稼動率的計算來看，從 60% 到 80% 等於季增約 30%。你能澄清一下嗎？

Yes. I think what we're seeing is, at some point, we will reach 80%. I think that's based on the forecast that we're looking at. But it's too early to say when exactly that will happen and how long it will last. So, I think we still need to monitor the situation a bit more.

是的。我想我們看到的是，在某個時間點會達到 80%。這是基於我們目前看到的預測。但現在要說確切何時會發生、以及會維持多久，都還太早。所以我想我們還需要再多觀察一下情況。

Okay. Yes. And lastly, kind of pricing and also your structural margin improvement. So this question could be a little bit more complex. So in terms of pricing, I understand that lower prices don't really drive the end demand, but your key customers are quite suffering, right, meaning they are cutting price with their competitors, their margin squeezed. And also our understanding is that some of your Chinese competitors, they are indeed cutting price for some mature wirebond business, right? So how do you address all those kind of pressures from your major customers and also your competitors?

好的。最後一題，關於定價以及你們結構性毛利率改善。這題可能比較複雜。就定價而言，我理解降價不一定能帶動終端需求，但你們的主要客戶其實很辛苦，對吧？也就是他們在跟競爭對手砍價、毛利被擠壓。另外我們也了解到，你們一些中國競爭對手確實在某些成熟的打線（wirebond）業務上降價。你們如何因應來自主要客戶以及競爭對手的這些壓力？

I'm trying to look at the -- to find the right word, [p for p, bifur]. I think because of the supply chain...

我在想——要找一個合適的詞，[p for p, bifur]。我想因為供應鏈……

Bifurcation.

分化（Bifurcation）。

Bifurcation, I think the price competition from the Chinese OSATs has lessened. So, we're actually not feeling that much of a pressure from the Chinese competitor at this point. But in terms of our customer, I think the value add in terms of the back-end services is much smaller than the front end. So, I think most of the pricing pressure should be more on the fab level [rather] than us. And given our scale and technology leadership and also the high degree of customer reliance on us, I think the -- we're still -- comparing to our competitors, we have a better pricing leverage. So, we're saying the pricing seems to be still resilient. In that case, we still need to find the suitable pricing strategy to serve our customers' needs and also to maintain the strategic relationship we have with our customers.

分化（Bifurcation）。我認為來自中國 OSAT 的價格競爭已經減弱，所以目前我們其實沒有感受到那麼大的中國競爭對手壓力。但就客戶端而言，我認為後段服務的加值相較於前段要小得多，所以大部分的定價壓力應該更多是在晶圓廠（fab）層級，而不是在我們這邊。再加上我們的規模、技術領先，以及客戶對我們高度依賴，我認為——相較於競爭對手，我們有更好的定價槓桿。因此我們認為定價仍具韌性。在此情況下，我們仍需要找到合適的定價策略，既能滿足客戶需求，也能維持我們與客戶之間的策略關係。

Sure. Yes. And last one. Attached to your comments about your pricing strategy, I'm wondering when you talk about or Ken talk about higher trough margin versus previous cycle, do you refer to the ATM business only or ATM and EMS? And also, do you think if there is industry-wide, the trough margin will be higher? Or is it just more about ASE?

了解。最後一題，延伸你對定價策略的評論。我想問的是，當你或 Ken 談到本輪週期的谷底毛利率高於上一輪週期時，你指的是只有 ATM 業務，還是 ATM 加 EMS？另外，你認為這會是全產業的趨勢——谷底毛利率都會更高——還是比較偏向 ASE 自身？

Competitors, I think from ATM's perspective, we are in a much stronger position than our customers -- than our competitors. And because of the -- because of our scale, because of the higher degree of customer reliance on us, I think the -- also the synergistic cost savings that we have after the SPIL combination, I think it does raise our overall margin prospect for us. That's why we're saying that our structural margin range has improved from historically around 20% to 25%. Now, we're moving that range from to mid-20s to 30%. And even with this trial cycle, we're still -- we still -- I think we still -- we're still maintaining that margin range for the whole year, although there's more uncertainties and the overall environment is not -- the overall environment is more challenging. As I mentioned, we are facing higher utility costs. We're facing higher financial costs and so on and so forth. And so the challenge is higher, but given the position, we still believe that we do have the buffer to try to maintain that structurally improve the margin.

就競爭對手而言，我認為從 ATM 的角度，我們的地位比競爭對手強很多。並且因為——因為我們的規模、因為客戶對我們更高程度的依賴，我認為——再加上與 SPIL 合併後的協同成本節省，我想這確實提升了我們整體的毛利前景。這也是為什麼我們說，我們的結構性毛利區間已從過去大約 20% 到 25%，提升到現在的中 20% 到 30%。即使在這一輪週期，我們仍——我們仍——我認為我們仍在全年維持這個毛利區間，儘管不確定性更多、整體環境也更具挑戰。如我提到的，我們面臨更高的公用事業成本、更高的財務成本等等。因此挑戰更大，但以我們的定位來看，我們仍相信我們有緩衝空間，去努力維持這個結構性改善後的毛利。

(Operator Instructions) It seems like there is no more question.

（接線員指示）看起來沒有更多問題了。

Okay. So thank you very much for attending this conference call. And I think the whole year, it remains to be challenging. But we believe we will continue to be the leader of the industry and we will be the last to fall and first to rise. And we remain confident weathering through this out, this down cycle lastly. And we'll continue to make the necessary investments to meet the future demand going forward. Thank you very much.

好的。非常感謝各位參加這次電話會議。我想今年全年仍將充滿挑戰，但我們相信我們會持續成為產業領導者，我們會是最後倒下、第一個回升的。我們仍有信心度過這段——這一輪下行週期的最後階段。我們也會持續進行必要的投資，以因應未來的需求。非常謝謝。