日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello, I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holdings.

大家好，我是日月光科技控股的投資人關係主管Ken Hsiang。

Welcome to our fourth-quarter and full-year 2023 earnings release.

歡迎閱讀我們的 2023 年第四季和全年收益發布。

Thank you for attending today.

感謝您今天參加。

Please refer to our safe harbor notice on page 2.

請參閱第 2 頁的安全港通知。

(Operator Instructions) I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements.

（操作員說明）我想提醒大家，接下來的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。

These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk and our actual results may differ materially.

這些前瞻性陳述面臨高度風險，我們的實際結果可能有重大差異。

For the purposes of this presentation, dollar figures are generally stated in new Taiwan dollars, unless otherwise indicated.

出於本演示的目的，除非另有說明，美元數字通常以新台幣表示。

As a Taiwan based company, our financial information is presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS.

身為台灣公司，我們的財務資料依照台灣國際財務報告準則呈報。

Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP.

使用台灣國際財務報告準則所呈現的結果可能與使用其他會計準則呈現的結果有重大差異，包括我們的子公司使用中國公認會計準則呈現的結果。

I am joined today by Joseph Tung, our CFO; and Dr. Tien Wu, our COO.

今天我們的財務長 Joseph Tung 也加入了我的行列。和我們的營運長吳天博士。

For today's presentation, I will first be going over the financial results.

在今天的演講中，我將首先介紹財務業績。

Dr. Wu will then give a market update and the 2024 key points.

隨後吳博士將介紹市場最新動態以及2024年的要點。

Joseph will then give the official company guidance.

然後約瑟夫將給予公司官方指導。

Both Joseph and Tien will then be available to take your questions during the Q&A session that follows.

Joseph 和 Tien 將在接下來的問答環節回答您的問題。

During the Q&A session, each caller will be limited to two questions at a time but may return to the queue for further questions.

在問答環節中，每個來電者一次只能提出兩個問題，但可以返回佇列詢問更多問題。

As per our expectations, the overall demand environment for our services remained sluggish during the fourth quarter.

正如我們的預期，第四季度我們服務的整體需求環境仍然低迷。

However, there were pockets of stronger performers within the devices we serve; but, by and large, our customers remained conservative in their ordering patterns.

然而，我們服務的設備中也有一些表現較出色的人；但總的來說，我們的客戶在訂購模式上仍然保守。

In general, higher end leading-edge services seemed to be faring better than legacy services, but stronger wide breadth volumes remained elusive.

整體而言，高端領先服務的表現似乎優於傳統服務，但更強勁的廣泛業務量仍難以實現。

For our ATM business, revenues were on the higher end of our expectations.

對於我們的 ATM 業務，收入高於我們的預期。

During the quarter, key equipment utilization rates were still relatively low, averaging out between the low and mid 60's.

本季度，關鍵設備利用率仍然相對較低，平均在 60 年代低至中期之間。

For our EMS business, in the fourth quarter, revenues increased sequentially, in line with our expectations.

對於我們的 EMS 業務，第四季營收季增，符合我們的預期。

This was driven by customers' new devices and growth in computing and automotive segments.

這是由客戶的新設備以及計算和汽車領域的成長所推動的。

For the year as a whole, the seasonal peak was a bit later in the year.

全年來看，季節性高峰出現得較晚。

With that, please turn to page 3 where you will find our fourth quarter consolidated results.

接下來，請翻到第 3 頁，您將在其中找到我們第四季的綜合業績。

For the fourth quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of TWD2.13 and basic EPS of TWD2.18.

第四季度，我們錄得完全攤薄每股收益 TWD2.13 和基本每股收益 TWD2.18。

Consolidated net revenues increased 4% sequentially and declined 10% year over year.

合併淨收入季增 4%，年減 10%。

We had a gross profit of TWD25.8 billion, with a gross margin of 16.0%.

毛利258億元新台幣，毛利率16.0%。

Our gross margin declined by 0.2% points sequentially and declined by 3.2% points year over year.

我們的毛利率較上季下降 0.2 個百分點，較去年同期下降 3.2 個百分點。

The sequential decline in margin is principally due to higher EMS business mix and slightly lower ATM business loading during the current quarter.

利潤率環比下降主要是由於本季 EMS 業務組合增加以及 ATM 業務負載略有下降。

The annual decline in gross margin is principally the result of lower loading during the current downturn.

毛利率的年度下降主要是由於當前經濟低迷期間負荷下降所致。

Our operating expenses increased by TWD0.4 billion sequentially and declined by TWD0.4 billion annually.

營業費用較上季增加 4 億新台幣，每年減少 4 億新台幣。

The sequential increase in operating expenses are primarily due to higher compensation expenses, specifically higher bonuses due to stronger goal achievement and ESOP expenses.

營運費用的環比增加主要是由於薪酬費用增加，特別是由於目標實現和員工持股計畫費用增加而導致的獎金增加。

The year-over-year decline was primarily attributable to lower bonus and profit sharing expenses across the company.

年比下降的主要原因是整個公司的獎金和利潤分享費用減少。

Our operating expense percentage declined 0.1% points sequentially and increased 0.6% points year over year to 8.7%.

我們的營業費用百分比季減 0.1 個百分點，較去年同期上升 0.6 個百分點至 8.7%。

The operating expense percentage changes were primarily related to lower operating leverage in a downturn environment.

營業費用百分比變動主要與經濟低迷環境下營業槓桿較低有關。

Operating profit was TWD11.8 billion, up TWD0.4 billion sequentially and down TWD8.0 billion year over year.

營業利潤為新台幣118億元，較上季增加4億元，較去年同期減少80億元。

Operating margin stayed flat at 7.4% sequentially and declined 3.7% points year over year.

營業利潤率與上一季持平，為 7.4%，較去年同期下降 3.7 個百分點。

During the quarter, we had a net non-operating gain of TWD0.6 billion.

本季度，我們的營業外淨收益為 6 億新台幣。

Our non-operating gain for the quarter primarily consists of net foreign exchange hedging activities, profits from associates, and other non-operating income, offset in part by net interest expense of TWD1.3 billion.

本季的營業外收益主要包括淨外匯對沖活動、聯營公司利潤和其他營業外收入，部分被 13 億新台幣的淨利息支出所抵銷。

Tax expense for the quarter was TWD2.5 billion.

本季稅費為新台幣 25 億元。

Our effective tax rate for the quarter was 19.9%.

我們本季的有效稅率為 19.9%。

Net income for the quarter was TWD9.4 billion, representing an increase of TWD0.6 billion sequentially and a decline of TWD6.3 billion year over year.

本季淨利為新台幣 94 億，季增 6 億新台幣，年減 63 億新台幣。

The NT dollar depreciated 1.5% against the US dollar, sequentially, during the 4th quarter and 1.8% annually.

新台幣兌美元第四季貶值 1.5%，每年貶值 1.8%。

From both a sequential and year-over-year perspective, we estimate the NTD depreciation had a 0.5% point positive impact to the company's gross and operating margins.

從環比和同比的角度來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對公司的毛利率和營業利潤率產生了 0.5 個百分點的正面影響。

On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items, without the inclusion of PPA related expenses.

在頁面底部，我們提供了關鍵的損益行項目，不包括購電協議相關費用。

Consolidated gross profit excluding PPA expenses would be TWD26.7 billion with a 16.6% gross margin.

扣除購電協議費用後的綜合毛利為新台幣 267 億元，毛利率為 16.6%。

Operating profit would be TWD13.0 billion, with an operating margin of 8.1%.

營業利益為新台幣130億元，營業利益率為8.1%。

Net profit would be TWD10.5 billion, with a net margin of 6.6%.

淨利為新台幣105億元，淨利率為6.6%。

Basic EPS, excluding PPA expenses, would be TWD2.45. Please refer to page 4.

基本 EPS（不包括 PPA 費用）為 TWD2.45。請參閱第 4 頁。

Here, you will find the 2023 consolidated full-year result versus 2022 full-year results.

在這裡，您將看到 2023 年全年綜合業績與 2022 年全年業績的比較。

Fully diluted EPS for the year was TWD7.18 while basic EPS was TWD7.39. For 2023, consolidated net revenues declined 13%, as compared with 2022.

全年全面攤薄每股收益為新台幣 7.18 元，基本每股收益為新台幣 7.39 元。 2023 年，合併淨收入較 2022 年下降 13%。

ATM declined 15% while EMS revenues declined 11% annually.

ATM 收入每年下降 15%，而 EMS 收入則下降 11%。

Gross profit for the year was TWD91.8 billion, declining TWD43.2 billion year over year or by 32%.

全年毛利為新台幣918億元，較去年同期減少新台幣432億元，跌幅32%。

In 2023, our consolidated gross margin declined 4.3% points to 15.8%, principally, as a result of the electronics industry downturn for both our ATM & EMS businesses.

2023 年，我們的綜合毛利率下降 4.3 個百分點至 15.8%，主要是由於我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務的電子產業低迷。

Operating expenses declined TWD3.3 billion for the year and came in at TWD51.4 billion.

營業費用全年減少 33 億新台幣，為 514 億新台幣。

Given the lower operating leverage during the downturn, our operating expense percentage increased by 0.6% points to 8.8% for the year.

鑑於經濟低迷時期營運槓桿較低，我們全年的營運費用百分比增加了 0.6 個百分點，達到 8.8%。

Operating profit for the year was TWD40.3 billion for the year declining TWD39.8 billion.

全年營業利潤為新台幣403億元，較上年減少398億元新台幣。

Operating margin for the year was 6.9% representing a decline of 5.1% points from 2022.

全年營業利益率為 6.9%，較 2022 年下降 5.1 個百分點。

We recorded a net non-operating gain of TWD2.3 billion for the year, including a net interest expense of TWD4.7 billion.

全年營業外淨收益為新台幣 23 億元，其中淨利息支出為新台幣 47 億元。

Most of the non-operating gains were associated with our foreign currency hedging activities.

大部分非營業收益與我們的外幣對沖活動有關。

Total tax expense was TWD9 billion.

稅費總額為新台幣90億元。

The effective tax rate for the year was 21.2%.

本年度實際稅率為21.2%。

We believe our ongoing effective tax rate for the coming year to be about 20.5%.

我們相信來年的持續有效稅率約為 20.5%。

Net income declined by 49% to TWD31.7 billion.

淨利下降 49%，至 317 億新台幣。

On a full year basis, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a positive 1.3% point impact to gross and operating margins.

就全年而言，我們估計新台幣貶值對毛利率和營業利潤率產生了 1.3 個百分點的正面影響。

Removing the effect of PPA depreciation, our gross margin would be 16.4%.

除去購電協議折舊的影響，我們的毛利率將為 16.4%。

Our operating margin would be 7.7%.

我們的營業利益率為 7.7%。

Our basic EPS would be TWD8.46.

我們的基本 EPS 是 TWD8.46。

It's worth noting that despite the prolonged correction lasting throughout the entirety year of 2023, our TWD7.18 EPS for 2023 represents the third highest EPS the company has historically delivered.

值得注意的是，儘管 2023 年全年持續了長期調整，但我們 2023 年每股收益 7.18 新台幣，是該公司歷史上第三高的每股收益。

Only 2021 and 2022 COVID-driven demand years had higher EPS.

只有 2021 年和 2022 年受新冠疫情驅動的需求年每股收益較高。

On page 5, is a graphical presentation of our consolidated financial performance.

第 5 頁以圖形方式展示了我們的綜合財務表現。

On page 6 is our ATM P&L.

第 6 頁是我們的 ATM 損益表。

The ATM revenue reported here contains revenues eliminated at the holding company level related to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses.

此處報告的 ATM 收入包含在控股公司層級抵消的與我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易相關的收入。

For the fourt quarter 2023, revenues for our ATM business were TWD82 billion, down TWD1.7 billion from the previous quarter and down TWD12.3 billion from the same period last year.

2023年第四季，ATM業務收入為新台幣820億元，較上季減少17億新台幣，比去年同期減少123億新台幣。

This represents a 2% decline, sequentially, and a 13% decline annually.

這意味著環比下降 2%，每年下降 13%。

Gross profit for our ATM business was TWD19.2 billion up TWD0.6 billion sequentially, and down TWD7 billion year over year.

ATM 業務毛利為新台幣 192 億元，較上季增加 6 億元，較去年同期減少 70 億元。

Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 23.4%, up 1.2% points sequentially, and down 4.4% points year over year.

ATM 業務毛利率為 23.4%，較上季上升 1.2 個百分點，較去年同期下降 4.4 個百分點。

Gross margin was higher than our original expectations.

毛利率高於我們原來的預期。

The sequential margin improvement was the result of product mix and the end of summer utility rates.

利潤率環比改善是產品組合和夏季末期公用事業費率的結果。

The annual margin decline is primarily the result of lower loading during the current downturn.

年度利潤率下降主要是由於當前經濟低迷時期負荷下降造成的。

During the fourth quarter, operating expenses were TWD10 billion, up TWD0.2 billion sequentially, and down TWD0.4 billion year over year.

第四季營業費用為新台幣100億元，較上季增加2億元，較去年同期減少4億元。

The sequential increase in operating expenses was primarily driven by higher labor-based expenses.

營運費用的環比增長主要是由於人工費用增加所致。

The annual operating expense decline was driven primarily by lower profit sharing and bonus expenses.

年度營運費用下降主要是由於利潤分享和獎金費用減少。

Our operating expense percentage for the quarter was 12.2% up 0.5% points sequentially, y and up 1.2% points annually.

本季我們的營運費用百分比為 12.2%，比上一季成長 0.5 個百分點，比上年增加 1.2 個百分點。

Sequential operating expense percentage increased, as a result of higher compensation related expenses.

由於薪酬相關費用增加，營業費用百分比持續增加。

The annual increase was due to lower operating leverage.

年度成長是由於經營槓桿較低。

During the fourth quarter, operating profit was TWD9.2 billion, representing an increase of TWD0.4 billion quarter over quarter, and a decline of TWD6.6 billion year over year.

第四季營業利潤為新台幣92億元，季增4億元，年減66億元。

Operating margin was 11.2%, improving 0.7% points sequentially and declining 5.5% points year over year.

營業利益率為 11.2%，季增 0.7 個百分點，較去年同期下降 5.5 個百分點。

For foreign exchange, we estimate that the NT to US dollar exchange rate had a positive 0.7% point impact on our ATM sequential margins, and a positive 0.9% point impact on a year over year basis.

對於外匯，我們估計新台幣兌美元匯率對我們的 ATM 連續利潤率產生了 0.7 個百分點的正影響，與去年同期相比，產生了 0.9 個百分點的正影響。

Without the impact of PPA related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 24.5%, and operating profit margin would be 12.6%.

如果不考慮購電協議相關折舊和攤銷的影響，ATM 毛利率將為 24.5%，營業利潤率為 12.6%。

On page 7, we have our ATM full year P&L. 2023 revenues for our ATM business declined by 15%, with our packaging and test businesses down16% and 11%, respectively.

第 7 頁有 ATM 全年損益表。 2023年我們的ATM業務收入下降15%，封裝和測試業務分別下降16%和11%。

Gross profit for the year declined 35% to TWD68.7 billion.

全年毛利下降35%至新台幣687億元。

Gross margin was 21.8% down 6.7% points, primarily as a result of the prolonged correction.

毛利率為 21.8%，下降 6.7 個百分點，主要是因為長期調整。

Our operating expense percentage increased 1.1% points to 11.7%.

我們的營運費用百分比增加了 1.1 個百分點，達到 11.7%。

The increase was primarily the result of lower economies of scale.

這一成長主要是規模經濟較低的結果。

Operating profit declined 52% to TWD31.8 billion, with operating margin declining 7.8% points to 10.1%.

營業利益下降 52% 至新台幣 318 億元，營業利益率下降 7.8 個百分點至 10.1%。

For foreign exchange, on a full year basis, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a 2.4% point impact on margins.

外匯方面，我們估計全年新台幣貶值對利潤率的影響為2.4個百分點。

Without the impact of PPA expenses, gross profit margin would be 22.9%, and operating margin would be 11.5%.

如果沒有PPA費用的影響，毛利率將為22.9%，營業利益率為11.5%。

Certainly, on its surface, the full-year comparative results appear to be somewhat unappetizing.

當然，從表面上看，全年的比較結果似乎有些令人失望。

But, given the breadth and severity of the industry downturn during 2023 and the history of even more unappetizing results during previously even lesser downturns, we believe this annual performance on its whole shows a reset in our ongoing ATM profitability structure

但是，考慮到2023 年行業低迷的廣度和嚴重性，以及之前較小程度的低迷期間出現的更令人失望的業績，我們認為，這一年度業績總體上表明我們正在進行的ATM 盈利結構的重置

On page 8, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L.

在第 8 頁，您將找到我們 ATM 損益表的圖形表示。

This shows the long protracted downturn that we are slowly coming out of.

這顯示我們正在慢慢走出長期的低迷狀態。

On page 9 is our ATM revenue by the 3C market segments.

第 9 頁是我們以 3C 細分市場劃分的 ATM 收入。

Our communications application took its seasonally larger position in the fourth quarter.

我們的通訊應用程式在第四季度佔據了季節性較大的地位。

Our computing segment dropped from the previous quarter but still remains a point above historical levels.

我們的計算業務較上一季下降，但仍高於歷史水準。

On page 10, you will find our ATM revenue by service type.

在第 10 頁，您可以按服務類型查看我們的 ATM 收入。

We have seen a higher revenue mix of advanced packaging and testing business in the back half of 2023 versus the first half of the year.

我們看到 2023 年下半年先進封裝和測試業務的收入組合比上半年更高。

During the coming years, we expect a higher growth rate from these two segments given the increased complexity and content in newer generations of devices.

在未來幾年中，鑑於新一代設備的複雜性和內容的增加，我們預計這兩個細分市場將出現更高的成長率。

On page 11, you can see the fourth quarter and full-year results of our EMS business.

在第11頁，您可以看到我們的EMS業務第四季和全年的業績。

During the quarter, EMS revenues were TWD79.2 billion, improving TWD8.2 billion or 12% sequentially, and declining TWD4.8 billion or 6% year over year.

本季度，EMS 營收為新台幣 792 億，季增 82 億新台幣，即 12%；年減 48 億新台幣，即 6%。

The sequential revenue increase is primarily attributable to a slightly later than seasonal peak to our EMS business, while the year over year revenue decline is primarily due to the broad based soft electronics demand environment.

營收季增主要歸因於我們的 EMS 業務略晚於季節性峰值，而營收年減主要歸因於廣泛的軟性電子需求環境。

Sequentially, our EMS business's gross margin declined 0.7% points to 8.4%, while our operating margin declined 0.4% points to 3.5%.

隨後，我們的 EMS 業務毛利率下降 0.7 個百分點至 8.4%，而我們的營業利潤率下降 0.4 個百分點至 3.5%。

The operating margin decline was driven primarily by product mix.

營業利益率下降主要是由產品組合所驅動的。

Our EMS fourth quarter operating profit was TWD2.8 billion, flat sequentially, and down TWD1.2 billion annually.

我們的 EMS 第四季營業利潤為新台幣 28 億，環比持平，年減 12 億新台幣。

From a full year perspective, our EMS business declined TWD33.7 billion or 11%.

從全年來看，我們的 EMS 業務下降了新台幣 337 億，即 11%。

Full year gross and operating profit declined by TWD5.7 billion and TWD5 billion, respectively.

全年毛利及營業利潤分別減少新台幣 57 億元及新台幣 50 億元。

Full year gross and operating profit margins declined 0.9% and 1.3% points, respectively.

全年毛利率和營業利益率分別下降 0.9 個百分點和 1.3 個百分點。

Generally, the full year declines in our EMS business are the result of the soft electronics market, leading to lower operating leverage.

總體而言，我們的 EMS 業務全年下滑是電子市場疲軟的結果，導致營運槓桿下降。

On page 12, you will find a graphical representation of our EMS revenue by application.

在第 12 頁，您將找到按應用劃分的 EMS 收入的圖形表示。

The shifts here, overall, were generally due to product timing.

整體而言，這裡的轉變通常是由於產品時間安排所造成的。

Relative to previous years, some products were earlier, while others were later in accordance with customer requests.

與往年相比，有的產品提前，有的根據客戶要求推遲。

Further, our computing revenues were also higher driven by stronger networking, server, and general restocking revenues.

此外，由於網路、伺服器和一般補貨收入的成長，我們的計算收入也有所增加。

On page 13, you will find key line items from our balance sheet.

在第 13 頁，您可以找到我們資產負債表中的關鍵項目。

At the end of the fouth quarter, we had cash, cash equivalents, and current financial assets of TWD72 billion.

截至第四季末，我們擁有現金、現金等價物及流動金融資產720億新台幣。

Our total interest-bearing debt was down TWD27.5 billion to TWD191.7 billion.

我們的有息債務總額減少了 275 億新台幣，至 1,917 億新台幣。

Total unused credit lines amounted to TWD373.8 billion.

未使用信貸額度總計3,738億新台幣。

Our EBITDA for the quarter was TWD28.6 billion, while EBITDA for 6the year was TWD106 billion.

本季的 EBITDA 為新台幣 286 億，而第六年的 EBITDA 為新台幣 1,060 億。

Our net debt to equity this quarter was down to

本季我們的淨債務與股本比率降至

[0.38].

[0.38]。

On page 11, you will find our equipment capital expenditures.

在第 11 頁，您將找到我們的設備資本支出。

Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the fourth quarter, in US dollars, totaled $234million; of which, $130million were used in packaging operations, $76million in testing operations, $21million in EMS operations, and $7million in interconnect material operations, and others.

第四季機械設備資本支出（以美元計）總計2.34億美元；其中，1.3億美元用於封裝業務，7,600萬美元用於測試業務，2,100萬美元用於EMS業務，700萬美元用於互連材料業務等。

Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the full year 2023, in US dollars, totaled $914million; of which, $460million were used in packaging operations, $314million in testing operations, $114million in EMS operations, and $26million in interconnect material operations and others.

2023年全年機械設備資本支出（以美元計）總計9.14億美元；其中，4.6億美元用於封裝業務，3.14億美元用於測試業務，1.14億美元用於EMS業務，2,600萬美元用於互連材料業務及其他業務。

Current quarter EBITDA of USD0.9billion continues to outpace our equipment capital expenditures of $0.2billion. At this point, I would like to hand the presentation off to Dr. Tien Wu.

本季 EBITDA 為 9 億美元，繼續超過我們的設備資本支出 2 億美元。現在，我想把演講交給吳天博士。

Dr. Wu?

吳醫生？

Hey everyone, this is Tien Wu.

大家好，我是吳天。

Year 2024 will be a year of recovery.

2024年將是復甦的一年。

In the last few years, there has been many changes, so I think it is appropriate for me to give you a market update.

過去幾年發生了很多變化，所以我認為我向大家介紹市場最新情況是合適的。

Take a snapshot of what we see today and how ASE is competing in this new environment, before I go to the year 2024 full-year outlook.

在我展望 2024 年全年展望之前，先簡單介紹一下我們今天所看到的情況以及 ASE 如何在這個新環境中競爭。

Let me talk about the semiconductor landscape.

我先談談半導體的前景。

As you know, the semi organization and many analysts has been talking about TWD1 trillion industry target by year 2030.

如您所知，半導體組織和許多分析師一直在談論到 2030 年達到 1 兆新台幣的產業目標。

We believe that the industry is likely to reach TWD1 trillion revenue target in the next decade.

我們認為未來十年該產業可望達到1兆新台幣的收入目標。

It can be '30 can be '31, '32, '33, but with high confidence we think the revenue will be TWD1 trillion mark in the next decade driven by AI, robotics, EV, and all of the new applications.

可以是“30”，也可以是“31”、“32”、“33”，但我們充滿信心地認為，在人工智慧、機器人、電動車和所有新應用的推動下，未來十年收入將達到1 兆新台幣。

The industry has a clear understanding about our responsibility in net zero, ESG, circular economy, as well as recycling throughout the whole supply chain.

業界對我們在淨零排放、ESG、循環經濟以及整個供應鏈回收方面的責任有清晰的認識。

As matter of fact, ASE has been putting a lot of endeavor in this area.

事實上，ASE在這方面已經付出了很多努力。

Industry is facing challenges, geopolitical tensions, regionalization, market bifurcation, and with all of these new effect, it will be added-cost, also the reduced-scale.

產業正面臨挑戰，地緣政治緊張、區域化、市場分化，所有這些新的影響將導致成本增加，規模縮小。

Those are new variables that the industry needs to learn how to manage.

這些都是產業需要學習如何管理的新變數。

Industry will have a few things we need to do: first, industry has to propose more innovations with higher value.

工業界有幾件事需要我們做：第一，工業界必須提出更多更高價值的創新。

I think AI is a perfect example in that regard.

我認為人工智慧在這方面是一個完美的例子。

Structure improvement of efficiency and cost, everyone, the whole supply chain is putting a lot of effort in doing that.

效率和成本的結構改善，每個人、整個供應鏈都在為此付出很大的努力。

Also talent, we need to align talent and workforce with the new complexities of doing business.

還有人才，我們需要使人才和勞動力適應新的業務複雜性。

With that, I would like to turn to the next page.

說到這裡，我想翻到下一頁。

And how do we see ASE competing in this new environment?

我們如何看待 ASE 在這個新環境中的競爭？

So let me list a few competitive advantagesm and this is based on the feedback from all of our customers, as well as the internal, via discussion.

因此，讓我列出一些競爭優勢，這是基於我們所有客戶以及內部討論的回饋。

The first competitive advantage is technology.

第一個競爭優勢是技術。

And here, I'm splitting the technology content into four large sectors.

在這裡，我將技術內容分為四大大部分。

Let me talk about the high-performance computing or the AI arena.

我來談談高效能運算或AI領域。

In that arena, I think the Taiwan ecosystem, with foundry, with design companies, as well as the whole supply chain becomes very critical, and ASE in this regard, were in the center of the Taiwan ecosystem.

在這個領域，我認為台灣的生態系統，包括代工廠、設計公司以及整個供應鏈變得非常重要，而日月光在這方面處於台灣生態系統的中心。

Also, specifically for AI and HPC, we do have the assembly and packaging and testing technology leadership.

另外，特別是在AI和HPC方面，我們確實擁有組裝和封裝測試技術的領先地位。

On the SiP, no doubt, in the last 10 years, ASE has demonstrated a clear leadership in heterogeneous integration, as well as embedded devices.

在SiP上，毫無疑問，在過去的10年裡，日月光在異構整合以及嵌入式設備方面表現出了明顯的領先地位。

In the optical, we are slowly revealing our endeavor with all of our key customer in Silicon Photonics, as well as Co-Package Optics.

在光學領域，我們正在慢慢地向矽光子學以及共封裝光學領域的所有主要客戶展示我們的努力。

We believe that will be the next paradigm shift, which will mark the new growth spurt for the whole semiconductor industry, if that becomes reality.

我們相信，這將是下一個範式轉變，如果這成為現實，這將標誌著整個半導體產業新的成長井噴。

And the last one is automation, ASE has been working on fully automated lights-out factory, including software development, data collection, as well as design ecosystem, including collaboration with designers, as well as customers.

最後一個是自動化，日月光一直致力於全自動熄燈工廠，包括軟體開發、資料收集，以及設計生態系統，包括與設計師、以及客戶的協作。

So we believe these four areas will mark a strong competitive advantage for ASE in this new environment where the higher value of innovation becomes a key competitive requirement.

因此，我們相信，在更高的創新價值成為關鍵競爭要求的新環境中，這四個領域將標誌著日月光強大的競爭優勢。

The next one will be scaling efficiencies.

下一個目標是擴展效率。

From the financial performance in the upcycle, also in the down cycle, we can pretty much see how we compare to our peers in the industry on the financial performance, as well as cash flow.

從上行週期和下行週期的財務表現，我們幾乎可以看到我們與行業同行的財務表現以及現金流量的比較。

ASE will continue to abide for this strong financial discipline and we will make all of the necessary investment according to our customers' requirements, as well as the technology trends in the industry.

日月光將繼續遵守這一嚴格的財務紀律，我們將根據客戶的要求以及行業的技術趨勢進行所有必要的投資。

The next one will be flexibility and agility to handle business model evolutions.

下一步將是處理業務模型演進的靈活性和敏捷性。

We believe that in the next 10 years, we have to work with different geography and a different business model.

我們相信，在未來10年，我們必須與不同的地理位置和不同的商業模式合作。

For example, -- we might have to work with Tier one or OEM or system house directly in a different business environment.

例如，我們可能必須直接在不同的業務環境中與一級或 OEM 或系統公司合作。

I think ASE in the last 20 years has demonstrated we have a clear flexibility and agility to work with different companies and different geography throughout the whole different business model and evolution.

我認為 ASE 在過去 20 年中已經證明，我們在整個不同的業務模式和發展過程中具有明顯的靈活性和敏捷性，可以與不同的公司和不同的地區合作。

Lastly, will be the geographical diversity.

最後，是地理多樣性。

I think ASE, as well as ASE HoldCo including USI, we do have the most diversified geographic presence throughout the world.

我認為日月光以及包括環旭電子在內的日月光控股公司確實在全球擁有最多元化的地理分佈。

With that advantages and also the resources, we should be able to handle all the customer requirements in the next 10 years, depending on how the political environment varies.

憑藉這些優勢和資源，我們應該能夠滿足未來 10 年內的所有客戶需求，具體取決於政治環境的變化。

Please turn to the next page.

請翻到下一頁。

I will talk about 2024 outlook.

我會談談2024年的展望。

First, I want to talk about the revenue recovery.

首先，我想談談收入的恢復。

2024 will be a year of recovery.

2024年將是復甦的一年。

We will be coming out of inventory adjustment in the first-half.

我們將在上半年結束庫存調整。

We do expect growth to accelerate in the second half.

我們確實預計下半年成長將加速。

Full-year ATM revenue should grow at a similar rate with the logic semiconductor market.

全年 ATM 收入的成長速度應與邏輯半導體市場相似。

We expect a higher revenue mix of advanced packaging, on technology leadership, as well as testing revenue on the increasing turnkey ratio, just like what [Ken] has just shown you in 2022 and 2023.

我們預計先進封裝、技術領先地位以及不斷增加的交鑰匙比率測試收入將帶來更高的收入組合，就像 [Ken] 剛剛向您展示的 2022 年和 2023 年一樣。

We will target higher investment in machinery and building and smart factory, compared to 2023.

與 2023 年相比，我們的目標是增加對機械、建築和智慧工廠的投資。

We believe we are entering into a new industrial upcycle and increasing adoption of the best technology, based on our customers' feedback.

我們相信，根據客戶的回饋，我們正在進入一個新的工業升級週期，並且越來越多地採用最佳技術。

Please turn to the next page.

請翻到下一頁。

Let me talk about the advanced packaging and also the AI boom.

讓我談談先進封裝和人工智慧熱潮。

In 2024, we're on track to double our leading-edge advanced packaging revenue.

到 2024 年，我們預計將領先的先進封裝收入翻倍。

For our existing customers, we expect to have additional USD250 million revenue in 2024, and we think the momentum will continue in the next few years.

對於我們現有的客戶，我們預計到 2024 年將獲得 2.5 億美元的額外收入，我們認為這一勢頭將在未來幾年持續下去。

ASE does have a comprehensive technology toolbox, including 3D, 2.5D, fan out, SiP, Co-Package Optics, automation, etc. Our scale advantages and technology leadership will make ASE the preferred partner for customers.

日月光確實擁有全面的技術工具箱，包括3D、2.5D、扇出、SiP、共封裝光學、自動化等。我們的規模優勢和技術領先地位將使日月光成為客戶的首選合作夥伴。

As it is apparent today, we have many new NPI, as well as collaborative project, with many Tier one system customers, also, the design house.

今天很明顯，我們有許多新的 NPI 以及與許多一級系統客戶以及設計公司的合作專案。

ASE will not only benefit from the adoption of leading-edge advanced packaging, but also the expansion of mainstream packaging which will be utilized to address the growing semiconductor demands for all the surrounding chips of the booming AI (technical difficulty) I have to turn the floor to our CFO, Joseph.

日月光不僅會受益於採用領先的先進封裝，而且會利用主流封裝的擴展來滿足蓬勃發展的AI對所有周邊晶片日益增長的半導體需求（技術難度）請我們的首席財務官約瑟夫發言。

Okay, thank you, Tien, and hello, everybody.

好的，謝謝你，Tien，大家好。

To give you the guidance for first quarter 2024, based on our current business outlook and exchange rate assumptions, our guidance for the first quarter of 2024 to be as follows: in NT dollar terms, our ATM first quarter 2024 revenue and gross margin should be similar to the first quarter of 2023.

為了給您2024 年第一季的指導，根據我們目前的業務前景和匯率假設，我們對2024 年第一季的指導如下：以新台幣計算，我們的ATM 2024 年第一季營收和毛利率應為與 2023 年第一季類似。

Again, in NT dollar terms, our EMS first quarter of 2024 revenues should be similar to the first quarter of 2023, and EMS first quarter 2024 operating margin should approach first quarter 2023 operating margin.

同樣，以新台幣計算，我們的 EMS 2024 年第一季營收應與 2023 年第一季相似，EMS 2024 年第一季營業利潤率應接近 2023 年第一季營業利潤率。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Operator Instructions) Gokul Hariharan, JP Morgan.

（操作員指令）Gokul Hariharan，摩根大通。

All right, happy New Year and thanks for taking my questions.

好的，新年快樂，謝謝您回答我的問題。

Could we talk a little bit more about how we think about growth this year.

我們能否多談談我們對今年成長的看法。

I think both of you mentioned close to the logic industry growth.

我想你們兩個都提到了邏輯產業的成長。

What does that number look like for you?

這個數字對你來說是什麼樣的？

Is it more like a 10% number or more than that?

它更像是 10% 的數字還是更多？

And maybe give us a little bit more color on how you think about growth by vertical?

也許可以給我們更多關於您如何看待垂直增長的信息？

Communication is still very important, more than 50% revenue of your ATM business, or how do you think about communication versus computing versus the consumer auto segment?

通訊仍然非常重要，佔 ATM 業務收入的 50% 以上，或者您如何看待通訊、計算和消費汽車領域？

That's my first question.

這是我的第一個問題。

As Tien mentioned, this 2024 will be a year of recovery.

正如Tien所說，2024年將是復甦的一年。

We are expecting to see, this year, to see sequential growth on a quarterly basis throughout the year, but with the second half having a stronger momentum.

我們預計今年全年將出現季度環比成長，但下半年動能更強勁。

And as the overall full year growth, as also as Tien mentioned, we will be growing at a similar rate with the logic semi market growth, which is projected by different sources for anything from 6% to 10% in the industry now.

正如 Tien 所提到的那樣，隨著全年整體成長，我們將以與邏輯半成品市場成長類似的速度成長，不同來源預計該產業目前的成長率為 6% 到 10%。

Okay, understood.

好的，明白了。

Also any guidance for margins?

還有利潤指導嗎？

Are we expecting margins to get back to high 20% to 30%?

我們是否預期利潤率會回到 20% 至 30% 的高點？

And could you also talk a little bit about your approach to the AI related packaging?

您能否談談您對人工智慧相關包裝的方法？

Some of your competitors are setting up capacity to compete with the leading foundry.

您的一些競爭對手正在建立產能以與領先的代工廠競爭。

Is that ASE's approach as well in terms of seeking out these high end AI accelerator packaging or are you partnering with the leading foundry in terms of potential opportunities in this advanced packaging business?

這是否也是日月光在尋找高端人工智慧加速器封裝方面的做法，或者您正在與領先的代工廠合作，以尋求這項先進封裝業務的潛在機會？

Well, I think we will certainly increase our overall CapEx for equipment for this year.

嗯，我認為我們今年肯定會增加設備的整體資本支出。

And given the pipeline that we're seeing today, I think we will likely have 40% to 50% more equipment CapEx budgeted for the year, although that's still subject to board approval.

考慮到我們今天看到的管道，我認為我們今年的設備資本支出預算可能會增加 40% 到 50%，儘管這仍然需要董事會批准。

And the bulk of more than 65% of the of the CapEx will be put in assembly, and the bulk part of it is really for the advanced packaging.

超過65%的資本支出大部分將投入組裝，其中大部分實際上是用於先進封裝。

And if we're looking at the breakdown of the CapEX that we're looking at today, roughly 67% will be for assembly, 18% for test, and 13% for EMS.

如果我們查看今天的資本支出細分，大約 67% 將用於組裝，18% 用於測試，13% 用於 EMS。

And most of it is really for the new packages or new products that we'll be bringing up this year.

其中大部分實際上是我們今年將推出的新包裝或新產品。

In terms of margin, I think we are very, very confident that the second half of the year, we will be going back to our structural margin, within our structural margin, which is set at mid 20% to 30%.

就利潤率而言，我認為我們非常非常有信心，今年下半年，我們將回到結構性利潤率，在結構性利潤率範圍內，即 20% 至 30% 的水平。

And we believe that, for the whole year, we can also have our margin coming back to the structural margin range.

我們相信，全年我們的利潤率也能回到結構性利潤率區間。

I think there's a question about the collaboration with leading foundry supplier for advanced packaging, as well as the investment maybe in the other part of the world.

我認為與領先的代工供應商在先進封裝方面的合作以及可能在世界其他地區的投資存在問題。

So our position has been clear: we're working with all of the leading foundry and we have made public announcement that, for example, the ASE and TSMC collaboration has been ongoing for years, and we will continue to work very closely, working on all of the required advanced packaging.

因此，我們的立場很明確：我們正在與所有領先的代工廠合作，並且我們已經公開宣布，例如，日月光和台積電的合作已經持續多年，我們將繼續密切合作，致力於所有所需的先進封裝。

The investment and the R&D readiness has always been in place, which is another reason why we can ramp up.

投資和研發準備一直到位，這也是我們能夠加速發展的另一個原因。

For example the [OS] in later part of last year, as well as the early part of this year, and you will see the good results are coming out.

例如去年下半年的[OS]，還有今年年初，你會看到好的結果出來了。

So the collaboration, the readiness, has always been here.

因此，合作和準備一直都在。

Now, in terms of going to different parts of the world and making a big investment, then, we need to have a better understanding about the product and also the technology requirements.

現在，就到世界不同地方進行大筆投資而言，我們需要對產品和技術要求有更好的了解。

Right now, we do not have any plan to go to US, for example, to make leading-edge capacity investment.

目前我們沒有任何計劃去美國等進行前沿產能投資。

However, we will be very careful, closely working with our customer and try to examine the situation.

但是，我們會非常小心，與客戶密切合作並嘗試檢查情況。

But today, we're going to focus on Taiwan first, to make sure we can fulfill order, ramp up technology variation requirements based on the leading edge foundry suppliers as well as our customer.

但今天，我們將首先關注台灣，以確保我們能夠滿足訂單，根據領先的代工供應商以及我們的客戶提高技術變更要求。

I think that will be the first order of business, as we move to '25, '26, and '27 depending on the environment, including political as well as business environment and we will make the different decisions accordingly.

我認為這將是首要任務，因為我們將根據環境（包括政治和商業環境）進入“25”、“26”和“27”，我們將相應地做出不同的決定。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Laura Chen, Citi.

勞拉陳，花旗銀行。

Hi, hello, can you hear me?

嗨，你好，你聽得到我說話嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Thank you for taking my question.

感謝您回答我的問題。

I also have a question about the advanced packaging.

我還有一個關於高級封裝的問題。

I think you mentioned about like an additional TWD250 million revenue contribution for this year.

我想你提到了今年額外貢獻2.5億新台幣的收入。

That's the new engagement with the advanced packaging.

這就是與先進封裝的新結合。

Can you elaborate more for what kind of the application?

能詳細說明一下什麼樣的應用程式嗎？

Is that including some of the bumping business or it's more focused on substrates that advanced packaging?

這是否包括一些凸塊業務，或更專注於先進封裝的基板？

Thank you

謝謝

The TWD250 million revenue, we include all of what we call the advanced packaging.

新台幣2.5億的收入，我們包括了所有我們所說的先進封裝。

For example, the on-substrate, if you're referring to substrate business.

例如，如果您指的是基材業務，則為基材上的業務。

And that includes like CoWoS, the TSMC version of the CoWoS, and the on substrate portion and that is inclusive.

這包括 CoWoS、CoWoS 的台積電版本以及基板部分，這些都包含在內。

Also the ASE has the six pack, the VI pack, that includes all kinds of advanced packaging.

ASE 還具有六種包裝，即 VI 包裝，其中包括各種高級包裝。

So this year, we're seeing the OS customers, we're also seeing the VI pack customers.

所以今年，我們看到了作業系統客戶，也看到了 VI 包客戶。

And then, hopefully, by the second half of this year, we can start announcing key customer ramping up the other advanced technology in volume.

然後，希望到今年下半年，我們可以開始宣布主要客戶擴大其他先進技術的產量。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you, and with that, also the expansion, what kind of the margin impact are we looking for?

謝謝，隨之而來的是擴張，我們希望對利潤率產生什麼樣的影響？

We don't normally comment on specific product margin, but as a whole I -- I think the overall corporate margin will continue to improve as we see volume to come up, and also by bringing in the new technology that we are overall offering.

我們通常不會對特定產品的利潤率發表評論，但總的來說，我認為，隨著我們看到銷售量的增加，以及透過引入我們整體提供的新技術，整體企業利潤率將繼續提高。

Okay, thank you very much.

好的，非常感謝。

Charlie Chan, Morgan Stanley.

陳查理，摩根士丹利。

Hello?

你好？

Yes.

是的。

Hi, yeah, happy new year.

嗨，是的，新年快樂。

So I also have a question regarding to advance packaging that CPO, it seems to be very, very future technology but can the company comment about potential timing, penetration, TAM, especially how are we going to work out with the key foundry vendor, TSMC?

所以我還有一個關於高級封裝的問題，CPO，這似乎是非常非常未來的技術，但該公司能否評論一下潛在的時機、滲透率、TAM，特別是我們將如何與主要代工供應商台積電合作？

Because I heard that TSMC may want to produce their silicon photonics.

因為我聽說台積電可能想生產他們的矽光子。

So how are we going to collaborate with the foundry partners or other vendors?

那我們要如何與代工夥伴或其他供應商合作呢？

Thanks.

謝謝。

Okay, this silicon photonics is a big subject.

好吧，這個矽光子學是一個很大的課題。

The whole idea is that will represent another paradigm shift.

整個想法將代表另一種範式轉移。

And as we enter into silicon photonics, we'll be opened up to more dimensions, more performance, more flexibility for all of the designers.

當我們進入矽光子學領域時，我們將為所有設計人員提供更多維度、更高性能和更大靈活性。

So it is good for the whole industry, right?

所以這對整個產業來說都是好事，對嗎？

The timing of silicon photonics, and that has been the big question, we have been working on this for many, many years, there are many, many people working on this.

矽光子學的時機，這一直是一個大問題，我們已經在這方面工作了很多很多年，有很多很多人在研究這個。

So this is really a future technology, as well as an incremental growth driver for the whole industry.

所以這確實是一個未來的技術，也是整個產業的增量成長動力。

In terms of how we partition the role and responsibility, that is less of a concern.

就我們如何劃分角色和責任而言，這不是一個值得關注的問題。

For example, the foundry will have foundry's role, in terms of making the photonics chips, either in a stack format or isolated format.

例如，代工廠將在製造堆疊格式或隔離格式的光子晶片方面發揮代工廠的作用。

And for ASE, we will focus on CO-packaged optics.

對於日月光來說，我們將專注於共同封裝的光學元件。

For example, if we take the IDM photonics chips or the foundry photonic chips, how do we bound all that with everything else?

例如，如果我們採用 IDM 光子晶片或代工光子晶片，我們如何將所有這些與其他所有東西綁定在一起？

So, each sector of the player will have a good responsibility and role to play in that new arena.

因此，參與者的每個部門都將在這個新的舞台上發揮良好的責任和作用。

Now, ASE has been talking about the CPO or silicon photonics, mainly because this is really an important innovation.

現在，ASE一直在談論CPO或矽光子，主要是因為這確實是一個重要的創新。

The whole industry is focusing on this.

全行業都在關注這一點。

ASE today is working with all of the major drivers in the industry in this arena.

如今，日月光正在與該領域的所有行業主要推動者合作。

I'm not sure that answers your question but that's what I have.

我不確定這是否能回答你的問題，但這就是我所擁有的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thanks, Tien.

謝謝，田。

Yeah, it's super helpful, very, very fair, and indeed covered lots of my questions.

是的，它非常有幫助，非常非常公平，而且確實解決了我的許多問題。

My second part of the question maybe is on near term.

我的問題的第二部分可能是近期的。

So since the, I guess, the late third quarter, we see circled foundry rush orders.

因此，我想，自第三季末以來，我們看到了圈起來的代工廠緊急訂單。

That means that the demand is coming back and also people lack of visibility.

這意味著需求正在回升，但人們缺乏可見性。

Fast-forwarding into four months later, I'm not sure if Tien or Joseph who want to answer this question, do you think this rush order patterns will continue or actually on the negative side, rush orders are now already disappear?

快進到四個月後，我不確定Tien或Joseph是否想回答這個問題，您認為這種緊急訂單模式會繼續下去還是實際上是負面的，緊急訂單現在已經消失了？

Okay, rush order you can view it from two different angles.

好吧，緊急訂單你可以從兩個不同的角度來看。

For example, if you look at, I want to offer my perspective first.

例如，如果你看，我想先提供我的觀點。

Industry is going through a very prolonged inventory correction, right, after the COVID.

就在新冠疫情之後，業界正在經歷一場非常漫長的庫存調整。

And so then we have a lot of wafer bank, and then people looking their inventory days, they look at the order pattern, they're trying to make two adjustments on the inventory days, as well as foundry order and supply chain cycle time pipeline.

因此，我們有很多晶圓庫，然後人們查看庫存天數，他們查看訂單模式，他們試圖對庫存天數以及代工訂單和供應鏈週期時間管道進行兩項調整。

Now, what we have seen for months, a few months ago is, for example, in China, the high-end cell phone was selling really well, and therefore, some of our customers start having the rush order on different wafers, different devices.

現在，我們幾個月前看到的是，例如，在中國，高階手機賣得非常好，因此，我們的一些客戶開始對不同的晶圓、不同的設備進行緊急訂單。

I think that's what you're referring to and this is really good, right?

我想這就是你所指的，這真的很好，對吧？

So then, the next question is, can this be prolonged?

那麼，下一個問題是，這個時間可以延長嗎？

Our belief is, this is the beginning of the boom cycle, or -- we're at the tail end of the inventory control.

我們的信念是，這是繁榮週期的開始，或者說——我們正處於庫存控制的尾聲。

For example, the first customer that started the inventory control was back to like January of 2023.

例如，第一個開始庫存控制的客戶大約是在 2023 年 1 月。

And there's some customers, they start doing inventory control at a much later of the year.

有一些客戶，他們在今年稍後開始進行庫存控制。

So every company, every sector will go through different inventory adjustment, but I believe by the third quarter of this year, they're pretty much done.

所以每家公司、每個部門都會經歷不同的庫存調整，但我相信到今年第三季度，他們就差不多完成了。

And then we're really going back to the sell-through cycle.

然後我們真的會回到銷售週期。

There's a lot of uncertainty on what exactly the sell-through cycle because of high inflation, the China economy, the war is going on, and it's so complicated to comment.

由於高通膨、中國經濟、戰爭的持續，銷售週期到底是怎樣的存在許多不確定性，而且很難評論。

But the general belief is, this year, the semiconductor will grow.

但人們普遍認為，今年半導體將會成長。

The logic will grow around high single-digit, like 10%.

邏輯將圍繞高個位數成長，例如 10%。

So everybody is working towards that goal.

所以每個人都在朝著這個目標努力。

All of the order patterns that we're seeing today, with every sector in a different pace, different tempo, they all pointed to that direction.

我們今天看到的所有訂單模式，每個部門都以不同的節奏、不同的節奏，它們都指向了那個方向。

The best way we can judge is in January, February, we'll give you this position, based on the snapshot, and every quarter we'll give you a different snapshot.

我們可以判斷的最好方法是在一月、二月，我們會給你這個職位，根據快照，每個季度我們會給你一個不同的快照。

I think that's probably the best we can do.

我認為這可能是我們能做的最好的事情了。

Because there's really no right or wrong and both sides of the perspectives can be correct.

因為確實沒有對錯之分，雙方的觀點都可以是正確的。

But we believe that we are seeing towards the tail end of the inventory adjustment.

但我們相信庫存調整已接近尾聲。

So the order pattern will start coming in and become more persistent and consistent.

因此，訂單模式將開始出現並變得更加持久和一致。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

盧小龍，高盛。

Yeah, thank you for taking my question.

是的，謝謝你回答我的問題。

Again, I still want to ask about advance packaging.

再次，我還是想問一下提前包裝的問題。

I think, in the past, the difficulty for us in terms of advanced packaging is that there are so many different solutions and each one require different capacity, different capex.

我認為，過去我們在先進封裝方面的困難在於，有許多不同的解決方案，每個解決方案都需要不同的產能、不同的資本支出。

And, obviously, we do see a clear direction driven by AI at this moment.

顯然，我們目前確實看到了人工智慧驅動的明確方向。

So can you tell us that -- is that the direction for moving into the specific advanced packaging, it's more confirmed?

那麼您能否告訴我們—這是否是進入特定先進封裝的方向，已經得到了更確認？

Do we see our CapEx somehow focused on that?

我們是否認為我們的資本支出以某種方式集中於此？

Do we get a reasonable ROIC or ROE for this business moving forward?

我們能否為這項業務的發展獲得合理的投資報酬率或淨資產收益率？

Is that an accretive business for us moving forward?

這對我們的發展來說是一項增值業務嗎？

Basically that's the question I am trying to ask.

基本上這就是我想問的問題。

Okay, this is a load of questions.

好吧，這是一大堆問題。

Now, how long would the AI last?

現在，人工智慧還能持續多久？

We believe will be long, long time.

我們相信將會是很長很長的時間。

So the initially could be one or two representative customers.

因此，最初可能是一兩個代表性的客戶。

But over time the other players will come in.

但隨著時間的推移，其他玩家也會加入。

So I think we're seeing the beginning or the tip of the iceberg, right?

所以我認為我們看到的是冰山的開始或一角，對嗎？

Now, if we believe that is the case, then the leading-edge foundry which says, okay, this is the capacity they're willing to put in and the other capacity, the other OSAT players, if you can do it, you will come in to help us.

現在，如果我們相信情況確​​實如此，那麼領先的代工廠就會說，好吧，這是他們願意投入的產能，而其他產能，其他 OSAT 廠商，如果你能做到，你就會進來幫助我們。

I think that was the situation pretty much described last year.

我想這就是去年所描述的情況。

The company has decided: we think we have the technology, we have the initial capacity, we understand the investment, we understand the return profile, so we want to do this business, not just from the leading edge foundry customer but also from all of the end customer and the potential system customer they asked us to do this.

公司已經決定：我們認為我們有技術，我們有初始能力，我們了解投資，我們了解回報概況，所以我們想要做這項業務，不僅來自領先的代工客戶，而且來自所有最終客戶和潛在的系統客戶要求我們這樣做。

Now, we're doing the OS or we're doing the VI pack as of now, but as AI become more evolved, in other words, now once you evolve beyond the brain, the logic, or the memory, you will start adding the other requirements.

現在，我們正在做作業系統或我們正在做VI包，但隨著人工智慧變得更加進化，換句話說，現在一旦你進化到超越大腦、邏輯或記憶，你將開始添加其他要求。

Now, all of this will require a similar capacity to build that required system over time.

現在，隨著時間的推移，所有這些都將需要類似的能力來建立所需的系統。

So we think company will be more, the application will be more, the system requirement will be more.

所以我們認為公司會更多，應用程式會更多，系統需求會更多。

But all going back to automation, going back to the understanding of the basic technology, and also, the company has enough portfolio and financial strengths to shoulder the business model and the liability.

但一切都回到了自動化，回到了對基礎技術的理解，而且公司有足夠的投資組合和財務實力來承擔商業模式和責任。

So this is one area which is quite definitive for ASE.

因此，對於 ASE 來說，這是一個非常明確的領域。

So we're not doing this for three to six months.

所以我們三到六個月內不會這樣做。

If that answers your question.

如果這回答了你的問題。

I want to add a point that the AI is really at its early stage.

我想補充一點，人工智慧確實還處於早期階段。

And we believe that, I say, continue to proliferate, we'll go to other applications and create another run of replacement market for us.

我說，我們相信，繼續擴散，我們將轉向其他應用程序，並為我們創造另一個替代市場。

So to us, it's not just the best packaging that will start with very strong growth.

所以對我們來說，不只是最好的包裝就能帶來非常強勁的成長。

But also, as they expand into other applications, all the other chips will be coming out and the overall volume for the also higher than the mainstream packages will also benefit from the overall AI boom.

而且，隨著它們擴展到其他應用程序，所有其他晶片都將問世，並且也高於主流封裝的總體體積也將受益於整體人工智慧熱潮。

So that will create another round of volume growth for us going forward, with not just our advanced packaging.

因此，這將為我們未來帶來新一輪的銷售成長，而不僅僅是我們的先進封裝。

The question is more likely to go in the early stage of packaging, which took quite a bit R&D and Capx, are we seeing that advanced packaging be margin accretive into 2024 or you know, in the early stage of the AI?

問題更有可能出現在封裝的早期階段，這需要大量的研發和資本支出，我們是否會看到先進封裝在 2024 年或在人工智慧的早期階段會增加利潤？

As I mentioned, we don't particularly comment on different packages of profit margin.

正如我所提到的，我們不會特別評論不同的利潤率套餐。

But as a whole, I think as long as technology continues to advance, I think our margin will reflect that.

但總的來說，我認為只要科技繼續進步，我認為我們的利潤率就會反映出這一點。

And as I said, if we look at this year, we'll continue to see our margins starting to improve, as we go along with the technology advancement.

正如我所說，如果我們看看今年，隨著技術的進步，我們將繼續看到我們的利潤率開始改善。

Randy Abrams, UBS.

蘭迪艾布拉姆斯，瑞銀集團。

Okay, yes, thank you.

好的，是的，謝謝。

I want to ask the first question if you can elaborate on the growth profile for this year?

我想問第一個問題，能否詳細介紹今年的成長情況？

First quarter looks like seasonal or slightly lower than seasonal?

第一季看起來像是季節性的還是略低於季節性的？

For the outlook, it sounds like more confident for the second half, but I'm curious for the second quarter, do you see we get back to the point, at least it looks seasonal from the low base so we start getting back to like high-single and low-teens type of recovery?

對於前景，聽起來對下半年更有信心，但我對第二季度很好奇，你看到我們回到正題了嗎，至少從低基數看起來是季節性的，所以我們開始回到喜歡的狀態高單身低青少年類型的恢復？

And then for applications, what I'm curious, the auto is very strong through the upturn, how is that application weathering the downturn and correction?

然後對於應用程序，我很好奇的是，汽車在經濟復甦期間非常強勁，該應用程式如何經受住低迷和調整？

And do you see the content growth, I am curious how auto is weathering through all these?

你看到內容的成長了嗎？我很好奇汽車是如何經得起這一切的考驗的？

The Q1, typically, if you go back to my 20 years with ASE, the Q1 typically is 10% to 15% down, right?

一般來說，如果你回顧我在 ASE 工作的 20 年，第一季通常會下降 10% 到 15%，對吧？

And the typical number that we work with is 12%.

我們使用的典型數字是 12%。

So I think this year, if we can be flattish to Q1 of last year, I think we're better than the typical Q1.

因此，我認為今年，如果我們能夠與去年第一季持平，我認為我們會比典型的第一季更好。

Of course, our Q4, you have to look at the relative, so that'd be the first comment.

當然，我們的第四季度，你必須看相對的，所以這將是第一個評論。

And then Q2, we believe that we'll go back to our typical growth path.

然後第二季度，我們相信我們將回到典型的成長路徑。

So I think this year we're looking at a typical year where Q1 low, Q2 growth, the second half stronger.

因此，我認為今年我們將看到一個典型的年份，第一季低，第二季成長，下半年強勁。

I think we're looking at that pattern now.

我想我們現在正在研究這種模式。

In terms of the automotive, some of the IoT and the analog, mixed signal customers, I think they're having a lot of inventory concerns.

就汽車、一些物聯網和模擬、混合訊號客戶而言，我認為他們有很多庫存問題。

So we are seeing a sluggish order in the first half in those arena, as some of the customer do supply to automotive.

因此，我們看到上半年這些領域的訂單疲軟，因為有些客戶確實向汽車供應。

However, the ASE automotive business per se is growing, mainly because -- the auto line has a lot to do with it.

然而，日月光汽車業務本身正在成長，主要是因為——汽車產品線與之有很大關係。

And Joseph will comment more on the auto growth.

約瑟夫將對汽車成長發表更多評論。

We did see a fairly good growth in auto part of the business since 2022, 2023, and we're expecting a higher growth also in 2024.

自2022年、2023年以來，我們確實看到汽車零件業務有相當好的成長，我們預計2024年也會有更高的成長。

Right now, I think the of the automotive related business, -- had a quite decent growth.

目前，我認為汽車相關業務的成長相當不錯。

And in 2023, it already represents close to 10% of overall business.

到 2023 年，它已佔整體業務的近 10%。

And though we are seeing that continue to grow into 2024.

儘管我們看到這種情況在 2024 年繼續增長。

And in terms of the overall growth rate, I think it will outpace the other sectors for 2044 as well, although we are seeing softer market conditions for the first half of the year, because selectivity and there are a few areas that we're seeing some inventory adjustments.

就整體成長率而言，我認為到 2044 年，它也將超過其他行業，儘管我們看到今年上半年的市場狀況較為疲軟，因為選擇性和我們看到的一些庫存調整。

But overall, I think the overall growth momentum will continue into 2024 in terms of our automotive business.

但總體而言，我認為我們汽車業務的整體成長動能將持續到2024年。

Okay, thanks for that color, and there's a quick follow up on that, then, I'll ask the second question, those one IoT, analog, mixed signal, because the consumer downturn lasted a lot longer.

好的，謝謝你的顏色，然後有一個快速跟進，然後，我會問第二個問題，物聯網、模擬、混合訊號，因為消費者低迷持續的時間要長得多。

Do you think we are through that, based on the customer feedback that that we should improve in second half or risk just given the inventory and how long it was strong it stays.

根據客戶回饋，我們應該在下半年進行改進，或者考慮到庫存以及庫存保持強勁的時間，您認為我們是否已經完成了這項任務。

And then the second question, it's actually the EMS business, where it's coming off a slow year and there hasn't been that much.

然後是第二個問題，實際上是 EMS 業務，今年經歷了緩慢的成長，而且沒有那麼多。

It feels like end customer innovation on new SIP projects.

感覺就像是終端客戶對新 SIP 專案的創新。

How you see EMS outlook, just general environment recovering or applications they're pushing.

您如何看待 EMS 的前景，只是整體環境的恢復或他們正在推動的應用程式。

And --if you're seeing new activity for SIP that could jumpstart that part.

而且 - 如果您看到 SIP 的新活動，可以快速啟動該部分。

Okay, we already said that second half, we believe that will be the beginning of the recovery, all right, for the first question.

好的，我們已經說過，下半年，我們相信這將是第一個問題復甦的開始。

The second question is EMS, and I think if you hear the EMS earnings announcement, I think they will also have a similar growth with ASE this year.

第二個問題是EMS，我想如果你聽到EMS的獲利公告，我認為他們今年也會有與ASE類似的成長。

I am not sure how to answer the SIP part of the question, because we don't typically comment on the specific SIP or products of our customers.

我不確定如何回答問題的 SIP 部分，因為我們通常不會評論客戶的特定 SIP 或產品。

I think for '24, I think in terms of EMS, SIP business, it will stay relatively flat from last year, because of the different dynamics that's happening in this business.

我認為 24 年，就 EMS、SIP 業務而言，由於該業務中發生的不同動態，與去年相比將保持相對穩定。

But all in all, I think we still remain very active in engaging with different products and different customers in the SIP arena.

但總而言之，我認為我們仍然非常積極地與 SIP 領域的不同產品和不同客戶互動。

And we believe that we will see very, very strong momentum starting to happen in 2025.

我們相信，我們將在 2025 年看到非常非常強勁的勢頭。

I think 2024 is really the year that we are entering a lot of NPIs, a lot of new engagements in different areas, including automotive, consumer, and communication.

我認為 2024 年確實是我們進入大量 NPI 的一年，在不同領域（包括汽車、消費者和通訊）開展大量新業務。

Szeho Ng, China Renaissance

吳思豪，華興資本

Hi there, good afternoon.

你好，下午好。

First question regarding Q1 guidance right we are looking for revenue ATM business to be down double digit, roughly, how much is our volume, our loading driven?

關於第一季指引的第一個問題是，我們正在尋找 ATM 業務收入下降兩位數，大致來說，我們的數量、負載驅動是多少？

How much is ASP related?

ASP有多少相關性？

ASP is quite stable right now.

ASP目前相當穩定。

So I think when we talk about -- first of all, let me just clarify a little bit, I think 2024 is the year of recovery.

所以我認為，當我們談論時，首先讓我澄清一下，我認為 2024 年是復甦之年。

Our Q1 is flattish compared to last year, our Q2 will grow.

我們的第一季與去年相比持平，我們的第二季將會成長。

When I talk about the second half inventory adjustment, I'm mainly referring to most of the customers that we have.

當我談到下半年庫存調整時，我主要指的是我們擁有的大多數客戶。

Some of the customers have already started ordering, some of the customers, it is still waiting.

有的顧客已經開始下單，有的顧客還在等待中。

Although we do not know for sure starting July all of the inventory adjustment will be over.

儘管我們不確定從 7 月開始所有庫存調整都會結束。

But macroscopically, we think that in the third quarter of this year, most of the customers will start the recovery path.

但宏觀上，我們認為今年第三季度，大部分客戶將開始復甦之路。

All right.

好的。

So I think that was a clarification.

所以我認為這是一個澄清。

Now, in terms of the ASP or volume, I think I am referring to a volume-driven, assuming the ASP, it is stable from now on.

現在，無論是ASP還是成交量，我想我指的是成交量驅動，假設ASP，從現在起它是穩定的。

If that answers your questions.

如果這回答了你的問題。

Oh, yeah.

哦耶。

And the second question relating to advanced packaging portfolio.

第二個問題與先進封裝產品組合有關。

Is this fair to assume that right now the overall portfolio for advanced packaging is margin dilutive to the ATM business or under what circumstances we should expect advanced packaging to command margin similar to the division margin?

假設目前先進封裝的整體投資組合稀釋了 ATM 業務的利潤率，這樣公平嗎？或者在什麼情況下我們應該預期先進封裝的利潤率與部門利潤率相似？

I think the first answer is yes.

我認為第一個答案是肯定的。

When I talked about TWD250 million, that's all ATM.

我說的2.5億新台幣，都是ATM。

In terms of margin, and I think Joseph has repeated over and over again, we don't comment specifically.

在保證金方面，我認為約瑟夫已經一遍又一遍地重複了，我們不具體發表評論。

But the overall margin contribution to the business will be accretive.

但對業務的整體利潤貢獻將會增加。

I think they just forced us to say that.

我認為他們只是強迫我們這麼說。

I was going to say not are not dilutive.

我想說的是，不稀釋。

Sorry, does that answer your question?

抱歉，這能回答您的問題嗎？

Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan

戈庫爾·哈里哈蘭，摩根大通

Yeah.

是的。

Hi.

你好。

I have a question on the test side of the business, how are we seeing the progress in trying to improve the bundling ratio for turnkey test?

我有一個關於業務測試方面的問題，我們如何看待提高統包測試捆綁率的進度？

And could we also talk a little bit about your market presence in some of these advanced AI chips?

我們能否談談你們在某些先進人工智慧晶片方面的市場佔有率？

How much testing business are we able to secure?

我們能夠獲得多少測試業務？

And Dr. Wu, if you could give us any milestones in terms of how we should be looking at your test business, given I think the bundling ratio is still quite low compared to what you want to be in the medium term.

吳博士，如果您能為我們提供關於我們應該如何看待您的測試業務的任何里程碑，因為我認為與您在中期希望達到的目標相比，捆綁比率仍然相當低。

Well, in terms of our test business, we have been growing that part of the business percentage wise in terms of our overall revenue composition.

嗯，就我們的測試業務而言，就我們的整體收入組成而言，我們一直在增長這部分業務的百分比。

I think from 2021 to 2023, I think we have been growing that from below 15% to now over close to 16% now.

我認為從 2021 年到 2023 年，我們的成長率從低於 15% 到現在接近 16%。

And we believe that ratio will continue to grow in 2024 to approach 17%.

我們相信這一比例將在 2024 年繼續增長，接近 17%。

And we will continue to make efforts in growing our test business through the increasing turnkey ratio with our customers.

我們將繼續努力透過提高與客戶的交鑰匙比率來發展我們的測試業務。

That includes the advanced packaging today, which at this stage, is a low percentage of testing that we have been doing for our customers.

這包括當今的先進封裝，在現階段，我們為客戶所做的測試所佔的比例很低。

We believe that our service will continue to rise and we will strive to reach our peak test revenue percentage of around 18% in the next couple of years.

我們相信，我們的服務將繼續成長，我們將努力在未來幾年內達到 18% 左右的峰值測試收入百分比。

Got it.

知道了。

My second question is on mobile, since that is still the primary revenue driver.

我的第二個問題是關於行動裝置的，因為這仍然是主要的收入驅動因素。

Given hearing that there are some changes happening in the mobile side, with more customers looking for 2.5 D or Fan-Out Package-on-Package solutions.

鑑於聽說行動端正在發生一些變化，越來越多的客戶正在尋找 2.5D 或扇出封裝解決方案。

There's also some discussion about the biggest flagship mobile customer starting to potentially see, or at least, the foundry part of the mobile packaging, stepping out of foundry towards OSATs.

還有一些討論是關於最大的旗艦移動客戶開始有可能看到，或至少是移動封裝的代工部分，從代工轉向 OSAT。

Are these opportunities likely to benefit ASE?

這些機會是否有可能使 ASE 受益？

How is ASE's position to benefit from these?

日月光如何從這些中受益？

And could you talk a little bit about this potential change from Flipchip to Fan-Out Package-on-Package on mobile?

您能否談談行動裝置上從倒裝晶片到扇出層疊封裝的潛在變化？

How beneficial is that to the OSAT profits and revenues?

這對 OSAT 利潤和收入有多大好處？

Thank you.

謝謝。

Well, I'm not sure I can answer all of your questions.

好吧，我不確定我能回答你所有的問題。

But let me try this.

但讓我試試這個。

Not just the mobile, right?

不只是手機，對吧？

If you look at the high-performance computing, and the router, the server, I think they all go through the similar trend.

如果你看看高效能運算、路由器、伺服器，我認為它們都經歷了類似的趨勢。

So initially, they want to go with a foundry supplier to make sure the turnkey service will guarantee yield, and also, the just-in-time delivery.

因此，最初，他們希望與代工供應商合作，以確保交鑰匙服務能夠保證產量，並且準時交貨。

As time goes on, a portion -- it can be packaging, it can be testing, it can be on substrate, and they will decide to go to the outside of the foundry service.

隨著時間的推移，一部分——可以是封裝，可以是測試，可以是在基板上，他們將決定去代工服務之外。

And then the first question is, is ASE ready?

那麼第一個問題是，ASE 準備好了嗎？

ASE has been.

日月光已經。

This is really our business and we are working with almost all of the customers in terms of the development, just to make sure apple-to-apple we're at least at par, efficiency, cost, liability-wise, are at par with the foundry suppliers.

這確實是我們的業務，我們在開發方面幾乎與所有客戶合作，只是為了確保我們至少在效率、成本、責任方面達到同等水平鑄造供應商。

And depending on the business model and also the volume supply, demand requirements, I think we've seen the first wave of outsourcing activity.

根據商業模式以及供應量和需求要求，我認為我們已經看到了第一波外包活動。

Once the door opens, I think this trend will continue.

一旦大門打開，我認為這種趨勢將會持續下去。

As more people come in, as more technology becomes available, as the data points start going up, the confidence level of the supply chain diversity and the resilience, I think it will be a natural force to drive that.

隨著越來越多的人進來，隨著越來越多的技術可用，隨著數據點開始上升，供應鏈多樣性的信心水平和彈性，我認為這將是推動這一趨勢的自然力量。

So in this regard, I think ASE will benefit, because this is the business, which is incremental, and also, in the core portfolio of our business's objective right?

所以在這方面，我認為日月光會受益，因為這是業務，這是增量的，而且也是我們業務目標的核心組合吧？

Now, in terms of how fast, how much, and the margin contribution, we believe the margin contribution will be accretive.

現在，就速度、多少和利潤貢獻而言，我們相信利潤貢獻將會增加。

We also believe that as this is coming in, the testing turnkey becomes a natural extension, and the testing will be of higher margin to begin with because of the investment and also the IP.

我們也相信，隨著這一點的到來，測試統包成為一種自然的延伸，並且由於投資和智慧財產權，測試一開始就會有更高的利潤。

So, as we approach more of the turnkey, as we approach more of the high-end, also, there's a natural margin requirement based on the technology content.

因此，當我們更接近交鑰匙產品時，當我們接近更多高端產品時，也存在基於技術內容的自然保證金要求。

So in the higher margin requirements, in the higher turnkey ratio.

所以在保證金要求越高的情況下，交鑰匙比率就越高。

So I think all of this will be very beneficial for ASE's future.

所以我認為這一切對於日月光的未來都是非常有利的。

I hope that answers your question.

我希望這能回答你的問題。

(Operator Instructions) Dylan Liu, Morgan Stanley.

（操作員指令） Dylan Liu，摩根士丹利。

Yes, hello.

是的你好。

Yeah, this is Dylan, so I'm asking on behalf of Charlie.

是的，這是迪倫，所以我代表查理問。

So the first question is, do we see any competition coming from Chinese OSATs?

所以第一個問題是，我們是否看到來自中國 OSAT 的競爭？

Because we heard some of our customers are surveying the possibility of shifting some of the capacity to Chinese OSATs.

因為我們聽說我們的一些客戶正在調查將部分產能轉移到中國 OSAT 的可能性。

And if so, how do we tackle that?

如果是這樣，我們該如何解決這個問題？

Will we lower our price, just because of the market share?

我們會僅僅因為市佔率而降低價格嗎？

Or we tend to focus more on the ASP and shift more of our focus to advanced packaging and such.

或者我們傾向於更專注於ASP，並將更多的注意力轉移到先進封裝等方面。

I think for competitors, it's ongoing for 30-40 years, and we're very used to this, right?

我想對於競爭對手來說，這種情況持續了30-40年，我們對此已經很習慣了，對吧？

And I think customers will always survey the worldwide suppliers.

我認為客戶總是會調查全球供應商。

The decision point is going to be under the new geographic regulatory control, if you're comfortable going to different parts of the region, which will be the first screen, the first filter.

如果您願意前往該地區的不同部分，那麼決策點將受到新的地理監管控制，這將是第一個螢幕，第一個過濾器。

I think for now, we have less concern for some of our key customers going to China because of that reason.

我認為，由於這個原因，目前我們對一些前往中國的主要客戶不太擔心。

But over time, this might change.

但隨著時間的推移，這種情況可能會改變。

Then, we're going back to the cost, the efficiency, as well as the reliability, and also, the data traceability.

然後，我們回到成本、效率、可靠性以及資料可追溯性。

So at least, I cannot comment on a competitor, but ASE's been doing this.

所以至少，我不能評論競爭對手，但日月光一直在做這件事。

We're trying to have full traceability on everything we do.

我們正在努力讓我們所做的一切都完全可追溯。

We're having to have 100% fully automated, therefore, everything's logging in the data, with a full transparency to our customers.

我們必須 100% 完全自動化，因此，一切都記錄在數據中，並對我們的客戶完全透明。

We're trying to improve our scale by working with leading foundry partner.

我們正在努力透過與領先的代工合作夥伴合作來擴大我們的規模。

We're trying to work with all the key Tier one system IDM suppliers, customers, trying to increase the data point and our knowledge.

我們正在努力與所有主要的一級系統 IDM 供應商、客戶合作，努力增加數據點和我們的知識。

And, not only we're trying to do manufacturing know how, but we're also trying to do the design simplification know-how, because we're trying to make the more simple design more complex, that's where the value is.

而且，我們不僅試圖掌握製造技巧，而且還嘗試掌握設計簡化技巧，因為我們試圖使更簡單的設計變得更複雜，這就是價值所在。

Immediately, we'll make a more complex expensive design to a cheaper simpler design.

我們將立即將更複雜、昂貴的設計轉變為更便宜、更簡單的設計。

So only with all these positive cycles, can we secure the key customer and this is why ASE has been having very high traction with all the leading edge customers.

因此，只有透過所有這些積極的循環，我們才能獲得關鍵客戶，這就是為什麼日月光對所有領先客戶都具有很高的吸引力。

So in terms of competition to Japan, Korea, or China including, it's always the same.

因此，在與日本、韓國或中國的競爭方面，情況總是一樣的。

You can use the same analogy on all of the legacy.

您可以對所有遺產使用相同的類比。

Over time, people are concerned about the legacy supply and demand.

隨著時間的推移，人們開始擔心遺留的供應和需求。

ASE is increasing our fully automated fab as well as our design simplification capability, precisely to anticipate that.

日月光正在增加我們的全自動晶圓廠以及我們的設計簡化能力，正是為了預測這一點。

On top of it, we're trying to improve the silicon carbide, we're trying to improve the silicon photonics, as well as all of the high-performance computing, like the VI pack.

最重要的是，我們正在努力改進碳化矽，我們正在努力改進矽光子學，以及所有高效能運算，例如 VI 套件。

So all the innovation are meant to offer additional toolbox to our customers in their future design, complexity as was simplification.

因此，所有創新都旨在為我們的客戶在未來的設計中提供額外的工具箱，簡化複雜性。

I don't think any of our Chinese competitors are having this kind of ecosystem and the data and the AI know-how for now, which is why I presented the ASE competitive advantage.

我認為我們的中國競爭對手目前還沒有這樣的生態系統、數據和人工智慧技術，這就是我介紹日月光競爭優勢的原因。

I think we have a few years of the clean leadership.

我認為我們還有幾年的廉潔領導。

We can leverage this window of opportunity to make sure our scale and efficiency and know-how can expand quickly ahead of our competitors

我們可以利用這個機會之窗，確保我們的規模、效率和專業知識能夠領先競爭對手快速擴張

Got it.

知道了。

Thanks.

謝謝。

Thanks for sharing the insights.

感謝您分享見解。

And the second question is also circling back to the advanced packaging, so we're curious about the business model.

第二個問題也回到了先進封裝，所以我們對商業模式感到好奇。

Because first thing is that how will we bring our competitive advantage versus the incumbent?

因為第一件事是我們將如何相對於現有企業帶來競爭優勢？

For example, those IDMs and foundries.

比如那些IDM和代工廠。

And because in our mind, we tend to think that more of a targeted market will be top dies coming from different foundries and we can work as a collaborator.

因為在我們看來，我們傾向於認為更多的目標市場將是來自不同代工廠的頂級模具，我們可以作為合作者。

And if so, how do we guarantee the yield?

如果是的話，我們如何保證良率？

Because, sometimes, it could be packaging, sometimes it could be top die.

因為，有時，它可能是包裝，有時可能是頂部晶片。

But if, you know, ended up with a production yield is suboptimal, who will be responsible with it?

但如果最終產量不理想，誰來負責？

I'll try to give you the simplified version of it.

我會盡力為您提供它的簡化版本。

It's a big challenge.

這是一個很大的挑戰。

We struggled with this for a long time, all right.

我們為此掙扎了很長時間，好吧。

The beauty of this is all the customers, all the suppliers, have been working with one or two leading suppliers for a period of time.

這樣做的美妙之處在於，所有客戶、所有供應商都已經與一兩個領先供應商合作了一段時間。

So the data log is there.

所以資料日誌就在那裡。

They understand the memory yield, they understand the logic yield, they understand the so-called assembly yield overall.

他們了解記憶體產量，他們了解邏輯產量，他們了解所謂的整體組裝產量。

So the benchmark is very clear, all right?

所以基準非常明確，好嗎？

So the simple answer is such, if ASE can produce the overall yield based on the overall benchmark at par to the benchmark, then we got this business.

所以簡單的答案是這樣的，如果 ASE 能夠根據整體基準產生與基準持平的整體收益率，那麼我們就得到了這項業務。

If we're below that, either we'll lose the business or there'll be punitive damage, which is what you were referring to.

如果我們低於這個水平，我們要么會失去業務，要么會受到懲罰性損害，這就是你所指的。

So the best way to look at is, can we retain this business going forward and still making money?

因此，最好的方法是，我們能否保留這項業務並繼續賺錢？

All right.

好的。

It is too early to tell.

現在說還太早。

But I'm telling you we do have the confidence, we will do, we will manage this.

但我告訴你們，我們確實有信心、我們會做到、我們會解決這個問題。

In terms of the other question you asked, it's a little bit too complicated and too detailed, I will not answer.

至於你問的另一個問題，有點太複雜、太詳細了，我就不回答了。

My apology.

我很抱歉。

There's no questions.

沒有問題。

If that, I would like to wish all of you Happy New Year, wherever you are.

如果是的話，我謹祝大家新年快樂，無論你們身在何處。

And we have gone through quite an exciting 2021, 2022. 2023 was a little bit of break, all right.

我們經歷了相當激動人心的 2021 年、2022 年。2023 年是一個小小的突破，好吧。

I think 2024, we're entering into a new era and I look forward to working with all of you.

我認為 2024 年，我們將進入一個新時代，我期待與大家合作。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Joseph?

約瑟夫？

Thank you all.

謝謝你們。

Happy New Year.

新年快樂。

We'll see you next time.

我們下次再見。

Okay, bye-bye.

好吧，再見。