日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2022 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello. I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holdings. Welcome to our Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2022 Earnings Release. Thank you for attending our conference call today.

你好。我是 ASE Technology Holdings 投資者關係主管 Ken Hsiang。歡迎閱讀我們的 2022 年第四季度和全年收益發布。感謝您參加我們今天的電話會議。

Please refer to our Safe Harbor notice on Page 2. All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation in this event. If participants do not consent, please disconnect at this time. I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk, and our actual results may differ materially.

請參閱我們第 2 頁的安全港通知。所有參與者都同意通過參與此活動傳播他們的聲音和問題。如果參與者不同意，請此時斷開連接。我想提醒大家，接下來的演示文稿可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述具有高度風險，我們的實際結果可能存在重大差異。

For the purposes of this presentation, our dollar figures are generally stated in New Taiwan Dollars unless otherwise indicated. As a Taiwan-based company, our financials are presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS. Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP.

出於本演示文稿的目的，除非另有說明，否則我們的美元數字通常以新台幣表示。作為一家台灣公司，我們的財務數據是根據台灣國際財務報告準則列報的。使用台灣 IFRS 呈現的結果可能與使用其他會計準則的結果存在重大差異，包括我們子公司使用中國 GAAP 呈現的結果。

As a reminder, we disposed of ASE Inc.'s China sites at the end of 2021. For our financial results presented here, in addition to our legal entity results, we have included information on a pro forma basis or as if the disposition of ASE Inc.'s China sites had already occurred. We believe the pro forma results give additional meaningful information, which would assist in providing comparability of our financial results. For the purposes of this presentation, we will generally discuss our full company and ATM fourth quarter results sequentially compared with third quarter legal entity results, and year-over-year compared with pro forma fourth quarter 2021. We will also discuss holding company level and ATM full year results compared with pro forma 2021.

提醒一下，我們在 2021 年底處置了 ASE Inc. 在中國的網站。對於此處提供的財務結果，除了我們的法人實體結果外，我們還包含了備考信息，或者好像處置了ASE Inc.的中國站點已經出現。我們相信備考結果提供了更多有意義的信息，這將有助於提供我們財務結果的可比性。出於本演示文稿的目的，我們將總體上討論我們的全公司和 ATM 第四季度業績與第三季度法律實體業績相比，以及與 2021 年第四季度備考相比的同比業績。我們還將討論控股公司層面和ATM 全年業績與 2021 年備考相比。

I am joined today by Dr. Tien Wu, our COO; and Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's call, I will be going over our financial results. Tien will be providing our annual business recap and outlook, and Joseph will then provide the quarterly guidance. We will then have a Q&A session following the prepared remarks, where Tien and Joseph will be taking your questions.

今天，我們的首席運營官 Tien Wu 博士加入了我的行列；和我們的首席財務官 Joseph Tung。在今天的電話會議上，我將回顧我們的財務業績。 Tien 將提供我們的年度業務回顧和展望，然後 Joseph 將提供季度指導。在準備好的發言之後，我們將舉行問答環節，Tien 和 Joseph 將回答您的問題。

First, a short qualitative recap of what happened for our businesses. We entered the fourth quarter with the framework that the semiconductor manufacturing chain held an increased level of inventory to address higher pandemic-driven supply chain risk. At the time, we believe that towards the end of the fourth quarter 2022 and during the first quarter of 2023, many of our customers would be digesting inventories to a post-pandemic level. Effectively, we believed manufacturing orders to the supply chain would be reduced to allow for inventory levels to reach something similar to a pre-pandemic level.

首先，對我們業務發生的情況進行簡短的定性回顧。進入第四季度時，我們的框架是半導體製造鏈持有更高水平的庫存，以應對更高的流行病驅動的供應鏈風險。當時，我們認為到 2022 年第四季度末和 2023 年第一季度，我們的許多客戶會將庫存消化到大流行後的水平。實際上，我們認為供應鏈的製造訂單將減少，以使庫存水平達到類似於大流行前的水平。

However, as the quarter progressed, many of our customers' outlooks continue to degrade. There were product inventories which appeared to be on track to being rightsized, or in certain cases, didn't even need to be adjusted at all. However, over the course of the quarter, it appeared that a significant amount of our customers continue to hold more than their desired level of inventory relative to the increasingly challenging demand environment.

然而，隨著本季度的推進，我們許多客戶的前景繼續惡化。有些產品庫存似乎正在調整規模，或者在某些情況下，甚至根本不需要調整。然而，在整個季度中，相對於日益具有挑戰性的需求環境，我們的大量客戶似乎繼續持有超過他們期望水平的庫存。

And while this situation does not necessarily change our view that the first quarter will represent the near-term trough, it does impact our view on the level of the bottom. We continue to see that the recovery starts in the second quarter, albeit how quickly we reach a full recovery remains somewhat difficult to ascertain.

雖然這種情況不一定會改變我們認為第一季度將代表近期低谷的觀點，但它確實影響了我們對底部水平的看法。我們繼續看到復蘇從第二季度開始，儘管我們仍然難以確定多快能達到全面復甦。

Before we get into the financial section, I would like to remind everyone that the information we are to present is basically a 3-month snippet of the company's performance as a global semiconductor downturn takes place. Our monthly revenues show the company running fairly regularly up until a rapid decline happened during December. December was operationally a less than ideal month, as such, we believe comparability of this quarter to previous and the year ago quarter will probably be somewhat limited.

在我們進入財務部分之前，我想提醒大家，我們要提供的信息基本上是公司在全球半導體低迷時期的 3 個月業績摘要。我們的月度收入顯示，該公司在 12 月份出現快速下滑之前一直保持正常運轉。 12 月在運營上不是一個理想的月份，因此，我們認為本季度與上一季度和去年同期的可比性可能會有所限制。

And while we would always like to see a strong order environment, quick upturns and downturns are inherent to the industry. We understand that many investors and industry analysts are interested in prognosticating the exact duration and severity of this current down cycle. However, the precision for this doesn't necessarily exist as the environment continues to be somewhat dynamic and dependent upon factors not easily quantifiable by us and others alike.

雖然我們總是希望看到強勁的訂單環境，但快速的起伏是該行業固有的。我們了解到，許多投資者和行業分析師有興趣預測當前下行週期的確切持續時間和嚴重程度。然而，這並不一定是精確的，因為環境仍然是動態的，並且取決於我們和其他人不容易量化的因素。

Despite this, we do know that within this type of environment, our resources are best spent extending our competitive advantages and thereby preparing for the next upturn. More about this from Dr. Wu after the financial section.

儘管如此，我們確實知道，在這種環境中，我們的資源最好用於擴大我們的競爭優勢，從而為下一次好轉做準備。在財務部分之後，吳博士將對此進行更多介紹。

With that, please turn to Page 3, will -- you will find our fourth quarter consolidated results. For the fourth quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of TWD 3.57 and basic EPS of TWD 3.77. Consolidated net revenues declined 6% sequentially and improved 7% year-over-year. We had a gross profit of TWD 34.1 billion with a gross margin of 19.2%. Our gross margin declined by 0.9 percentage points sequentially and increased by 0.3 percentage points year-over-year. The sequential margin decline is principally a result of lower unloading in both our ATM and EMS businesses.

有了這個，請翻到第 3 頁，你會發現我們第四季度的綜合業績。第四季度，我們錄得 3.57 新台幣的完全攤薄每股收益和 3.77 新台幣的基本每股收益。綜合淨收入環比下降 6%，同比增長 7%。我們的毛利為新台幣 341 億元，毛利率為 19.2%。我們的毛利率環比下降 0.9 個百分點，同比上升 0.3 個百分點。連續利潤率下降主要是由於我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務的卸貨量較低。

The annual increase is primarily the result of higher profitability from our EMS businesses and a higher mix of ATM revenues. Our operating expenses were flat during the fourth quarter while increasing TWD 1.6 billion year-over-year to TWD 14.3 billion. The annual increase was primarily related to a higher scale of operation. Our operating expense percentage increased 0.5 percentage points sequentially and year-over-year to 8.1%. The sequential operating expense percentage increase was primarily related to lower revenues during the quarter. The annual OpEx percentage increases are primarily due to lower revenue with lower G&A costs offset by increased NPI costs and higher headcount.

年度增長主要是由於我們的 EMS 業務盈利能力提高以及 ATM 收入組合增加。我們的運營費用在第四季度持平，但同比增加 16 億新台幣至 143 億新台幣。年度增長主要與經營規模擴大有關。我們的營業費用百分比環比和同比增長 0.5 個百分點至 8.1%。營業費用百分比環比增長主要與本季度收入下降有關。年度 OpEx 百分比增長主要是由於收入減少，G&A 成本降低被 NPI 成本增加和員工人數增加所抵消。

Operating profit was TWD 19.8 billion, down TWD 3.9 billion sequentially while up TWD 1 billion year-over-year. Operating margin 11.1%, declining 1.5 percentage points sequentially and down 0.2 percentage points year-over-year. During the quarter, we had a net non-operating gain of TWD 0.4 billion. This amount includes net interest expense of TWD 1.1 billion. Tax expense for the quarter was TWD 3.6 billion. As we mentioned last quarter, our effective tax rate tapered down a bit during the fourth quarter to 18%. During the quarter, we were able to apply certain beneficial tax rates related to high technology initiatives.

營業利潤為 198 億新台幣，環比下降 39 億新台幣，同比增加 10 億新台幣。營業利潤率為 11.1%，環比下降 1.5 個百分點，同比下降 0.2 個百分點。本季度，我們的非經營淨收益為新台幣 4 億元。該數額包括 11 億新台幣的淨利息支出。本季度的稅收支出為新台幣 36 億元。正如我們上個季度提到的，我們的有效稅率在第四季度略有下降至 18%。在本季度，我們能夠應用與高科技計劃相關的某些優惠稅率。

Net income for the quarter was TWD 15.7 billion, representing a decline of TWD 1.8 billion sequentially and an improvement of TWD 1.2 billion year-over-year. The NT dollar depreciated 4.18% against the U.S. dollar during the fourth quarter. From a sequential perspective, we estimate the NT dollar depreciation had a 1.03 percentage point impact to the company's gross and operating margins. From a year-over-year perspective, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a 3.16 percentage point positive impact to gross and operating margins. As a rule of thumb, for every percent the NT dollar appreciates, we see a corresponding 0.25 percentage point impact to our holding company gross margin.

本季度淨收入為 157 億新台幣，環比下降 18 億新台幣，同比增加新台幣 12 億。第四季度新台幣兌美元貶值4.18%。從連續的角度來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對公司的毛利率和營業利潤率有 1.03 個百分點的影響。從同比角度來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對毛利率和營業利潤率產生了 3.16 個百分點的積極影響。根據經驗，新台幣每升值一個百分點，我們就會看到我們控股公司的毛利率相應受到 0.25 個百分點的影響。

On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items without the include of PPA-related expenses. Consolidated gross profit, excluding PPA expenses, would be TWD 35 billion, with a 19.7% gross margin. Operating profit would be TWD 21 billion with an operating margin of 11.8%. Net profit would be TWD 16.9 billion with a net margin of 9.5%. Basic EPS, excluding PPA expenses, would be TWD 4.05.

在頁面底部，我們提供了不包括 PPA 相關費用的關鍵 P&L 行項目。不包括 PPA 費用的綜合毛利為 350 億新台幣，毛利率為 19.7%。營業利潤為新台幣 210 億元，營業利潤率為 11.8%。淨利潤為新台幣 169 億元，淨利率為 9.5%。不包括 PPA 費用的基本每股收益為 4.05 新台幣。

Please refer to Page 4. Here, you will find the 2022 consolidated full year results. As mentioned earlier, we will be comparing against pro forma 2021 full year results, which exclude the disposed China sites.

請參閱第 4 頁。在這裡，您將找到 2022 年的綜合全年業績。如前所述，我們將與 2021 年全年備考結果進行比較，其中不包括已處置的中國網站。

Fully diluted EPS for the year was TWD 13.94 while basic EPS was TWD 14.53. For 2022, consolidated net revenues grew 23% as compared to 2021. ATM revenues grew 21%, while EMS revenues grew 26% annually. Gross profit for the year was TWD 134.9 billion, increasing TWD 29.9 billion year-over-year or by 28%. In 2022, our gross margin improved 0.8 percentage points to 20.1%, principally as a result of favorable foreign exchange environment for both our ATM and EMS businesses.

全年完全攤薄每股收益為新台幣 13.94 元，而基本每股收益為新台幣 14.53 元。到 2022 年，綜合淨收入與 2021 年相比增長 23%。ATM 收入增長 21%，而 EMS 收入每年增長 26%。全年毛利1,349億新台幣，同比增加299億新台幣或28%。 2022 年，我們的毛利率提高了 0.8 個百分點至 20.1%，這主要是由於我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務的外匯環境有利。

Operating expenses increased TWD 8.7 billion for the year and came in at TWD 54.8 billion. We were able to lower our operating expense percentage by 0.3 percentage points to 8.2% for the year. Operating profit for the year increased TWD 21.2 billion or 36% to TWD 80.2 billion for the year. Operating margin for the year was 12%, representing an improvement of 1.2 percentage points over 2021. We recorded a net non-operating gain of TWD 1.5 billion for the year, including a net interest expense of TWD 3.3 billion.

營業費用全年增加 87 億新台幣，達到 548 億新台幣。我們能夠將全年的運營費用百分比降低 0.3 個百分點至 8.2%。全年營業利潤增加新台幣 212 億元或 36% 至新台幣 802 億元。全年營業利潤率為 12%，較 2021 年提高 1.2 個百分點。全年非營業淨收益為新台幣 15 億元，其中淨利息支出為新台幣 33 億元。

Total tax expense was TWD 16.4 billion. The effective tax rate for the year was 20.1%. We continue to believe our ongoing effective tax rate to be about 20.5%. Net income increased by 37% to TWD 62.1 billion. On a full year basis, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a positive 1.5 percentage point impact to gross and operating margins. Removing the effect of PPA depreciation, our gross margin would be 20.7%, our operating margin would be 12.7%, our basic EPS would be TWD 15.62.

稅費總額為新台幣 164 億元。全年有效稅率為 20.1%。我們仍然相信我們目前的有效稅率約為 20.5%。淨收入增長 37% 至新台幣 621 億元。從全年來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對毛利率和營業利潤率產生了 1.5 個百分點的正面影響。除去 PPA 折舊的影響，我們的毛利率為 20.7%，營業利潤率為 12.7%，基本每股收益為 15.62 新台幣。

On Page 5 is a graphical presentation of our consolidated financial performance. You can start to see the impact of the start of the inventory digestion here. Weaker revenues and a suboptimal environment are impacting both our ATM and EMS businesses.

第 5 頁是我們綜合財務業績的圖形展示。您可以在此處開始查看庫存消化的影響。收入減少和環境欠佳正在影響我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務。

On Page 6 is our ATM P&L. There's worth noting here that the ATM revenue reported here contains revenues eliminated at the holding company level related to the intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses. For the fourth quarter 2022, revenues for our ATM business was TWD 94.3 billion, down TWD 4.5 billion from the previous quarter and up TWD 9.1 billion from the same period last year. This represents a 5% decline sequentially and a 11% increase year-over-year. Our ATM revenues came in at about our expectations.

第 6 頁是我們的 ATM P&L。這裡值得注意的是，此處報告的 ATM 收入包含在控股公司層面消除的與我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易相關的收入。 2022 年第四季度，我們的 ATM 業務收入為新台幣 943 億元，環比減少新台幣 45 億元，同比增加新台幣 91 億元。這表示環比下降 5%，同比增長 11%。我們的 ATM 收入達到了我們的預期。

Gross profit for our ATM business was TWD 26.2 billion, down TWD 2.6 billion sequentially, while up TWD 1.9 billion year-over-year. Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 27.8%, down 1.4 percentage points sequentially and 0.7 percentage points year-over-year. The sequential gross profit margin decline was the result of lower loading and offset in part by the depreciating NT dollar. On an annual basis, without inclusion of our fourth quarter 2021 bonus reclassification, our ATM gross margin would be down 0.3 percentage points. This decline is related to reduced loading levels, resulting in relatively higher utility and material related expenses, offset in part by a favorable foreign exchange environment.

我們 ATM 業務的毛利為 262 億新台幣，環比下降 26 億新台幣，但同比增長 19 億新台幣。 ATM 業務的毛利率為 27.8%，環比下降 1.4 個百分點，同比下降 0.7 個百分點。毛利率環比下降是裝載量減少的結果，部分被新台幣貶值所抵消。按年度計算，如果不包括我們 2021 年第四季度的獎金重新分類，我們的 ATM 毛利率將下降 0.3 個百分點。這種下降與負載水平降低有關，導致公用事業和材料相關費用相對較高，部分被有利的外匯環境所抵消。

During the fourth quarter, operating expenses were TWD 10.4 billion, up TWD 0.2 billion sequentially and TWD 1.3 billion year-over-year. Sequentially, higher operating expenses were from higher NPI-related costs, while the year-over-year increase was primarily driven by higher NPI costs and higher base of operations with higher employee headcount. Our operating expense percentage was 11%, up 0.7 percentage points sequentially and 0.5 percentage points year-over-year. During the fourth quarter, operating profit was TWD 15.8 billion, representing a decline of TWD 2.9 billion quarter-over-quarter and an improvement of TWD 0.6 billion year-over-year. Operating margin was 16.7%, declining 2.2 percentage points sequentially and 1.2 percentage points year-over-year.

第四季度，營業費用為 104 億新台幣，環比增加新台幣 2 億元，同比增加新台幣 13 億元。隨後，更高的運營費用來自更高的 NPI 相關成本，而同比增長主要是由更高的 NPI 成本和更高的運營基礎以及更多的員工人數推動的。我們的營業費用百分比為 11%，環比上升 0.7 個百分點，同比上升 0.5 個百分點。第四季度營業利潤為新台幣158億元，環比減少新台幣29億元，同比增加新台幣6億元。營業利潤率為 16.7%，環比下降 2.2 個百分點，同比下降 1.2 個百分點。

For foreign exchange, we estimate that the NT U.S. dollar exchange rate had a 1.9 percentage point impact on our ATM sequential margins and a 5.7 percentage point impact on a year-over-year basis. Without the impact of PPA-related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 28.7% and operating profit margin be 17.9%.

對於外匯，我們估計新台幣匯率對我們的 ATM 連續利潤率產生 1.9 個百分點的影響，對同比產生 5.7 個百分點的影響。如果沒有 PPA 相關折舊和攤銷的影響，ATM 毛利率將為 28.7%，營業利潤率為 17.9%。

On Page 7, we have our ATM full-year P&L. 2022 revenues for our ATM business increased by 20%, with our Packaging business and Test business up 20% and 22%, respectively. Even on a reported legal entity basis, our ATM business increased 11%. This effectively means that our ATM business more than made up for the revenues lost from the -- China's entities disposed of in the fourth quarter of 2021.

在第 7 頁，我們有 ATM 全年損益表。 2022 年，我們 ATM 業務的收入增長了 20%，我們的封裝業務和測試業務分別增長了 20% 和 22%。即使在報告的法人實體基礎上，我們的 ATM 業務也增長了 11%。這實際上意味著我們的 ATM 業務彌補了 2021 年第四季度處置的中國實體的收入損失。

Gross profit for the year improved 27% to TWD 105.9 billion. Gross margin was up 1.6 percentage points, primarily as a result of higher loading and efficiency and NT dollar depreciation. Our operating expense percentage declined 0.1 percentage points to 10.6%. The decline was primarily the result of a higher revenue base. Operating profit improved 32% to TWD 66.4 billion, with operating margin improving 1.6 percentage points to 17.9%. For foreign exchange, on a full year basis, we estimate that the strengthening NT dollar had a 2.7 percentage point impact on margins. Without the impact of PPA expenses, gross profit margin would be 29.4% and operating margin would be 19.1%.

全年毛利增長 27% 至新台幣 1,059 億元。毛利率上升 1.6 個百分點，主要是由於更高的負載和效率以及新台幣貶值。我們的營業費用百分比下降 0.1 個百分點至 10.6%。下降的主要原因是較高的收入基礎。營業利潤增長 32% 至新台幣 664 億元，營業利潤率提高 1.6 個百分點至 17.9%。對於外匯，我們估計全年的新台幣走強對利潤率產生了 2.7 個百分點的影響。如果沒有 PPA 費用的影響，毛利率將為 29.4%，營業利潤率為 19.1%。

On Page 8, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L. You'll note here the impact of our semi-fixed cost base. As sales declines, not all costs are able to be scaled down.

在第 8 頁，您將找到我們 ATM P&L 的圖形表示。您會在這裡註意到我們的半固定成本基礎的影響。隨著銷售額的下降，並非所有成本都可以縮減。

On Page 9 is our ATM revenue by market segment. There is no change here.

第 9 頁是我們按細分市場劃分的 ATM 收入。這裡沒有變化。

On Page 10, you will find our ATM revenue by service type. There isn't a significant change here. It may appear that our wirebond business has come down a bit faster than our advanced packaging services. However, historically, seasonality of advanced packaging tends to be stronger than wirebonding in the fourth quarter. You can see the fourth quarter and full year results of our EMS business. During the quarter, demand was impacted by an overall weaker demand environment, supply chain issues and inventory destocking, resulting in weaker-than-anticipated revenues.

在第 10 頁，您將按服務類型找到我們的 ATM 收入。這裡沒有明顯的變化。我們的引線鍵合業務似乎比我們的先進封裝服務下降得更快。不過，從歷史上看，先進封裝的季節性在第四季度往往強於引線鍵合。您可以看到我們 EMS 業務的第四季度和全年業績。本季度，需求受到整體需求環境疲軟、供應鏈問題和庫存去庫存的影響，導致收入低於預期。

During the fourth quarter, EMS revenues declined TWD 6.8 billion or 7% sequentially, while increasing TWD 2.4 billion or 3% year-over-year. Our EMS business's gross and operating margins sequentially declined 0.8 and 1 percentage point, respectively. These sequential declines were primarily driven by lower than expected loading during the quarter, resulting in unplanned operational inefficiencies. On an annual basis, our EMS gross and operating margins improved 0.6 and 0.3 percentage points, respectively. These annual improvements were primarily the impact of foreign exchange.

第四季度，EMS 收入環比下降 68 億新台幣或 7%，而同比增長 24 億新台幣或 3%。我們的 EMS 業務的毛利率和營業利潤率分別下降了 0.8 和 1 個百分點。這些環比下降主要是由於本季度的裝載量低於預期，導致計劃外的運營效率低下。按年計算，我們的 EMS 毛利率和營業利潤率分別提高了 0.6 和 0.3 個百分點。這些年度改善主要是外彙的影響。

On a full year perspective, our EMS business revenues increased 26%. The increase was broad-based, with our traditional EMS somewhat outperforming our SiP business. Gross profit increased 35%, full year gross margins improved by 0.6 percentage points, and operating profit margins increased by 1 percentage point.

從全年來看，我們的 EMS 業務收入增長了 26%。這種增長是廣泛的，我們傳統的 EMS 業務在某種程度上優於我們的 SiP 業務。毛利增長35%，全年毛利率提高0.6個百分點，營業利潤率提高1個百分點。

On Page 12, you will find a graphical representation of our EMS revenue by application. Outside of our Automotive segment, all other segments declined from softer loading during the quarter.

在第 12 頁，您將找到我們按應用劃分的 EMS 收入的圖形表示。在我們的汽車部門之外，所有其他部門在本季度都因疲軟的負載而下降。

On Page 13, you will find key line items from our balance sheet. At the end of the quarter, we had cash, cash equivalents and current financial assets of TWD 65.6 billion. Our total interest-bearing debt was TWD 202.3 billion. Total unused credit lines amounted to TWD 346 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was TWD 35.9 billion. EBITDA for the year was TWD 140.3 billion. Net debt to equity was 43% at the end of the year.

在第 13 頁，您將找到我們資產負債表中的關鍵項目。本季度末，我們擁有現金、現金等價物和流動金融資產為新台幣 656 億元。我們的有息債務總額為新台幣 2,023 億元。未使用的信貸額度總額為新台幣 3,460 億元。我們本季度的 EBITDA 為 359 億新台幣。全年 EBITDA 為新台幣 1,403 億元。截至年底，淨債務權益比為 43%。

On Page 14, you will find our equipment capital expenditures. Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the fourth quarter in U.S. dollars totaled $339 million, of which $121 million were used in packaging operations, $183 million in test operations, $25 million in EMS operations and $10 million in interconnect materials, operations and others.

在第 14 頁，您會找到我們的設備資本支出。以美元計，第四季度機械設備資本支出總計3.39億美元，其中1.21億美元用於封裝業務，1.83億美元用於測試業務，2500萬美元用於EMS業務，1000萬美元用於互連材料、業務及其他。

For the full year, machinery and equipment capital expenditures were $1.7 billion, $0.9 billion was spent on Packaging, $0.6 billion on Test and $0.2 billion on EMS and others. Given the overall slowdown within the industry, we have also taken action to reduce our Packaging capital expenditures for the year. However, we continue to believe we have the capability to gain share within the Test marketplace, and as such, we have not actively reduced our Test investments.

全年，機器和設備資本支出為 17 億美元，9 億美元用於包裝，6 億美元用於測試，2 億美元用於 EMS 和其他。鑑於行業整體放緩，我們還採取行動減少了今年的包裝資本支出。然而，我們仍然相信我們有能力在測試市場中獲得份額，因此，我們沒有積極減少我們的測試投資。

Current quarter EBITDA of $1.1 billion relative to our capital expenditures of $0.3 billion continued a pattern of a somewhat slower approach to equipment capacity expansion. You can see larger gaps starting in the third quarter of 2021. For the full year, out of $4.7 billion EBITDA generated, machinery CapEx was $1.7 billion. For the near term, we of our machinery capital expenditures should stay more at a similar reduced rate.

當前季度的 EBITDA 為 11 億美元，而我們的資本支出為 3 億美元，這延續了設備產能擴張速度稍慢的模式。從 2021 年第三季度開始，您可以看到更大的差距。全年，在產生的 47 億美元 EBITDA 中，機械資本支出為 17 億美元。短期內，我們的機械資本支出應該更多地保持在類似的降低率。

With that said, I'll pass the presentation over to Dr. Tien Wu.

話雖如此，我會將演示文稿交給 Tien Wu 博士。

Hi, everyone. I would like to give you a 2022 recap. The 2022 revenue and margin improvement achieved our targets. ASE ATM revenue grew 13% year-over-year. Here, I'm referring to everything in U.S. dollar term, also on a pro forma basis.

大家好。我想給你一個 2022 年的回顧。 2022 年的收入和利潤率改善實現了我們的目標。 ASE ATM 收入同比增長 13%。在這裡，我指的是所有以美元計價的東西，也是以備考為基礎的。

The 13%, we believe, is more than twice of the logic semiconductor industry growth. The 2022 ASE ATM gross margin, operating margin was 28.5% and 17.9%, respectively, surpassing historical peak levels of 27% and 16.6%. 2022 ASE consolidated revenue grew 16% year-over-year. 2022 ASE consolidated operating margin improved 1.1 percentage points year-over-year, with net profit growth of 29% year-over-year. 2022 advanced packaging revenue grew 27% year-over-year, test revenue grew 15% year-over-year, momentum continues in mid to long term. 2022 consolidated automotive revenue grew 50% year-over-year, achieving $1.6 billion. 2022 ATM automotive grew also 50% year-over-year, reaching close to $1 billion milestone.

我們認為，13% 是邏輯半導體行業增長的兩倍多。 2022年日月光ATM毛利率、營業利潤率分別為28.5%和17.9%，超過27%和16.6%的歷史峰值水平。 2022 年 ASE 綜合收入同比增長 16%。 2022年日月光綜合營業利潤率同比提高1.1個百分點，淨利潤同比增長29%。 2022先進封裝營收同比增長27%，測試營收同比增長15%，中長期勢頭持續。 2022 年綜合汽車收入同比增長 50%，達到 16 億美元。 2022 ATM 汽車也同比增長 50%，達到接近 10 億美元的里程碑。

I would like to give you 2023 outlook. ASE continue will be industry outperformer. With enhanced structural profitability, we expect ASE ATM first quarter 2023 revenue to be subseasonal due to industry destocking. However, ATM business should trough in the first quarter, followed by sequential quarter-to-quarter growth for the remaining of the year. With multiple market uncertainties, 2023 ATM revenue year-over-year will range from flattish to high single-digit decline. Expect higher mix of advanced packaging and test business. We also expect continuing market share growth due to increased semiconductor complexity, IDM outsourcing and also our smart manufacturing offering. We reiterate ASE ATM annual structural gross margin of mid-20%s to 30%.

我想給你2023年的展望。日月光將繼續成為行業領先者。隨著結構性盈利能力的增強，我們預計 ASE ATM 2023 年第一季度的收入將因行業去庫存而出現淡季。然而，ATM 業務應該會在第一季度觸底，隨後在今年剩餘時間內實現環比增長。由於存在多種市場不確定性，2023 年 ATM 收入同比將從持平到高個位數下降。期望先進封裝和測試業務的更高組合。由於半導體複雜性增加、IDM 外包以及我們的智能製造產品，我們還預計市場份額將持續增長。我們重申 ASE ATM 年度結構性毛利率在 20% 至 30% 之間。

We believe ASE is late to fall, early to rise during this market correction because scale, technology leadership, flexibility, also the proven record, make ASE an indispensable manufacturing partner, resulting in more resilient pricing and expanding lead against our competition during this volatile market timing. ASE's global footprint gives strong competitive advantages in current geopolitical environment. ATM, we have high-end supply chain in Taiwan. We also have a group of diversified capacities in China, Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan. EMS supply chain, primarily in China. We also have diversified capacities in Taiwan, Vietnam, Mexico and Europe. Future expansion will be planned based on customer and end market requirements.

我們認為，在這次市場調整中，日月光晚跌早起，因為規模、技術領先地位、靈活性以及久經考驗的記錄，使日月光成為不可或缺的製造合作夥伴，從而在這個動蕩的市場中實現更具彈性的定價並擴大我們在競爭中的領先優勢定時。 ASE 的全球足跡在當前的地緣政治環境中具有強大的競爭優勢。 ATM，我們在台灣有高端供應鏈。我們在中國、韓國、馬來西亞、新加坡、日本也擁有多元化的能力。 EMS供應鏈，主要在中國。我們還在台灣、越南、墨西哥和歐洲擁有多元化的能力。未來的擴張將根據客戶和終端市場的要求進行規劃。

Capacity expansion continues in second half of 2023, although at a slower rate comparing to 2022. However, more expansion in building infrastructure and smart manufacturing, preparing for the next cycle. Further improvement of cash flow based on disciplined capital investment, scale efficiency and sustained profitability.

2023 年下半年產能擴張將繼續，儘管與 2022 年相比增速有所放緩。但是，建築基礎設施和智能製造的擴張將進一步擴大，為下一個週期做準備。基於紀律嚴明的資本投資、規模效率和持續盈利能力，進一步改善現金流。

I will pass the floor to our CFO, Joseph.

我將把發言權交給我們的首席財務官約瑟夫。

Thank you, Tien. Well, echoing what Tien just mentioned, with the aggressive destocking and software end demand, we are looking for a softer-than-expected trough first quarter, both in terms of revenue and margin performance. However, at this point, we are seeing signs of improvement, including increasing NPIs, seizing forecast revisions, some rush orders and continued pricing resiliency. We are now of the view that things will turn up from second quarter, with decent recovery and further ramp up to full capacity in the back half of the year.

謝謝你，天。好吧，與 Tien 剛才提到的相呼應，隨著積極的去庫存和軟件終端需求，我們正在尋找一個低於預期的第一季度低谷，無論是在收入還是利潤表現方面。然而，在這一點上，我們看到了改善的跡象，包括 NPI 增加、預測修正、一些緊急訂單和持續的定價彈性。我們現在認為，情況將從第二季度開始好轉，復甦良好，並在下半年進一步提高至滿負荷運轉。

Now based on our current business outlook and exchange rate assumptions, management projects overall performance for the first quarter of 2023 to be as follows. In NT dollar terms, our ATM first quarter 2023 business levels should be similar with pro forma second quarter 2021 levels, which was TWD 72.7 billion. Our ATM first quarter 2023 gross margin should be above second quarter 2019 gross margin, which was 18.6%. For EMS business, in terms -- in NT dollar terms, our EMS first quarter 2023 business levels should decline high single digit year-over-year. Our EMS first quarter 2023 operating margin should be similar with first quarter 2021, which was 2.5%.

現在，根據我們當前的業務前景和匯率假設，管理層預計 2023 年第一季度的整體業績如下。以新台幣計算，我們 2023 年第一季度的 ATM 業務水平應與 2021 年第二季度的備考水平相似，即新台幣 727 億元。我們的 ATM 2023 年第一季度毛利率應高於 2019 年第二季度的 18.6%。對於 EMS 業務，以新台幣計算，我們的 EMS 2023 年第一季度業務水平應同比下降高個位數。我們的 EMS 2023 年第一季度營業利潤率應與 2021 年第一季度相似，為 2.5%。

Now with that, I gave you the first quarter guidance. Thank you.

現在，我給了你第一季度的指導。謝謝。

Now we would like to open the floor for questions. (Operator Instructions) We have a question from Mr. Gokul Hariharan.

現在我們想開始提問。 （操作員說明）我們有一個來自 Gokul Hariharan 先生的問題。

Yes. Can you hear me?

是的。你能聽到我嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Okay. First of all, can I ask a little bit, I think Q1 clearly is quite weak. It looks like you're seeing most of the order cuts coming through in Q1. Quick question on gross margins, I think it looks like gross margins are declining about 800 basis points or so. Could you help us understand how much of that is primarily a utilization cyclical thing versus are you also having to give up some pricing in the downturn, so how do we think about the gross margins?

好的。首先，我可以問一下嗎，我覺得Q1顯然很弱。看起來您在第一季度看到了大部分訂單削減。關於毛利率的快速問題，我認為毛利率似乎下降了大約 800 個基點左右。您能否幫助我們了解其中有多少主要是利用周期性的事情，而您是否也不得不在經濟低迷時期放棄一些定價，那麼我們如何看待毛利率？

And given that you're expecting recovery starting from Q2, how cyclical are gross margins going to be? When you talk about the mid-20%s to 30% gross margin, do we kind of fall within that range for 2023 overall as well, or is that a long-term guidance and not so much for 2023? That's my first question.

鑑於您預計從第二季度開始復蘇，毛利率的周期性如何？當你談到 20% 到 30% 的毛利率時，我們是否也屬於 2023 年的整體範圍，或者這是一個長期指導，而不是 2023 年的指導？這是我的第一個問題。

Well, we're still holding on to the structural margin that we mentioned earlier on. I think we are very confident that throughout the year, we can continue to maintain a 20% -- mid-20% to 30% gross profit margin for ATM business. And also for EMS, we continue to target a 4% and above operating margin. In terms of the margin erosion in the first quarter, I think mainly, it's really from the volume because of the lower loading and also impacted by NT dollar appreciation versus fourth quarter '22. I think the price -- ASE has very, very minimum -- ASE has very, very minimal impact on the overall margin performance in the quarter.

好吧，我們仍然堅持我們之前提到的結構性利潤率。我認為我們非常有信心，全年我們可以繼續保持 ATM 業務 20% - 20% 至 30% 的毛利率。對於 EMS，我們繼續將營業利潤率定為 4% 及以上。就第一季度的利潤率下降而言，我認為主要是由於裝載量較低以及新台幣相對於 22 年第四季度升值的影響。我認為價格 - ASE 的價格非常非常低 - ASE 對本季度整體利潤率表現的影響非常非常小。

Understood. That's very clear. My second question, could you talk a little bit about what are you hearing from your customers that gives you the confidence that we get back to sequential growth in Q2? Could you give a little bit more color on any subsectors or any particular areas where you're starting to see these rush orders, or like customers kind of coming back at a more accelerated pace in terms of demand when we think about Q2 and beyond?

明白了。這很清楚。我的第二個問題，你能談談你從客戶那裡聽到的讓你相信我們在第二季度恢復連續增長的信心嗎？您能否在您開始看到這些緊急訂單的任何子行業或任何特定區域提供更多顏色，或者當我們考慮第二季度及以後時，就像客戶在需求方面以更快的速度回歸？

Our confidence in the second quarter pickup are primarily based on the -- our conversation with -- actually all customers. And starting December, as a matter of fact, the destocking effort started quite early in 2022. Different sectors have gone through different pace of their destocking effort, so I will not comment too much detail in that. What we're seeing today is some sector seems to accomplish their short-term target, and they start to have rush order, and we have seen that in January. Also, we have seen some forecast revision upward.

我們對第二季度提貨的信心主要基於——我們與——實際上所有客戶的對話。而從12月開始，其實2022年的去庫存工作早就開始了。不同行業的去庫存步伐不同，我就不多說了。我們今天看到的是一些行業似乎完成了他們的短期目標，他們開始有緊急訂單，我們在 1 月份已經看到了這一點。此外，我們還看到一些預測向上修正。

Now in terms of the pricing environment, if we believe there is a sustained downturn, then we believe that the pricing pressure should be worse than what we're seeing today. And there are quite a few reasons why we believe this is the case. If you look at the Industrial and Automotive, we continue to see strength. Also, our light-out factories provide very high quality and consistent high reliability output. So that part of the business, we continue to see strength, and we are seeing the consumer sector to going through some of the destocking efforts. In December, the -- as well as Q1, they have gone through very severe destocking effort. And with all indicators, by talking to our customers, they believe the normal shipment should resume in second quarter.

現在就定價環境而言，如果我們認為存在持續低迷，那麼我們認為定價壓力應該比我們今天看到的更糟。我們認為情況確實如此，原因有很多。如果你看看工業和汽車，我們會繼續看到實力。此外，我們的熄燈工廠提供非常高質量和一致的高可靠性輸出。所以這部分業務，我們繼續看到實力，我們看到消費部門正在經歷一些去庫存的努力。在 12 月，以及第一季度，他們經歷了非常嚴厲的去庫存努力。根據所有指標，通過與我們的客戶交談，他們認為正常出貨應該會在第二季度恢復。

Next question is from Mr. Randy Abrams.

下一個問題來自 Randy Abrams 先生。

Actually, I'll ask 1 follow-up to it, just with that across customer pickup. First quarter was a much sharper decline, especially versus outlook a few months ago. Do you see that prospect in second quarter starts resuming quite a strong pickup, or do you still see its kind of gradual rebound where it's much more a second half-weighted year?

實際上，我會要求 1 個後續跟進，只是在客戶接聽時。第一季度的跌幅要大得多，尤其是與幾個月前的展望相比。您是否看到第二季度的前景開始恢復相當強勁的回升，或者您是否仍然看到它的逐漸反彈，下半年權重更大？

That is -- that remains to be same, all right? So today, we are -- we have high confidence the second quarter will pick up, and we believe the pickup should at least be double digit. That's what we know today. Now the forecast is actually stronger, however, the -- we would like to be a little bit more conservative right now.

那就是——保持不變，好嗎？所以今天，我們 - 我們非常有信心第二季度會回升，我們認為回升至少應該是兩位數。這就是我們今天所知道的。現在，預測實際上更強了，但是，我們現在想保守一點。

Okay. So do you expect it to be a double-digit pickup from this lower first quarter?

好的。那麼，您是否預計它會比這個較低的第一季度出現兩位數的回升？

Correct.

正確的。

Okay, good. Okay. And then I wanted to ask actually the mix, the -- you expect the advanced packaging and test to outgrow relative this year. Just -- if you take the 2 areas, are there certain areas you're seeing on the advanced side? Is it like the traditional mobile, or do you see anything -- there's a lot more attention to things like the AI, if you're seeing the HPC pick up? And then I'm just curious on the mainstream, it's been weaker for a while, where that's at? Is that lagging on the pickup, or do you think they have further to go?

好的。好的。然後我實際上想問一下組合，你預計今年先進的封裝和測試會超過相對增長。只是 - 如果您選擇這 2 個領域，您是否看到某些領域處於領先地位？它是否像傳統的移動設備，或者您是否看到了什麼——如果您看到 HPC 開始興起，那麼人們對 AI 之類的東西會更加關注？然後我只是對主流感到好奇，它已經弱了一段時間，它在哪裡？這是否落後於皮卡，或者你認為他們還有更遠的路要走？

We are seeing the strong pick up in the second half for both sectors, based on the NPI activities.

根據 NPI 活動，我們看到這兩個行業在下半年都有強勁回升。

Okay. And for -- and just 1 other application. The automotive, which has been very strong, does it look like you kind of avoided the downturn just given share gain? And because you mentioned that's still stronger, any signs or worries about that segment that it's -- it will follow in the other areas? Just curious how -- I think last year, at the start of the year, you expected 40% growth in delivery, at least that. But how auto looks, and if you see any maybe flags that they're kind of an elevated inventory, or the strength looks to continue?

好的。對於 - 並且只有 1 個其他應用程序。一直非常強勁的汽車行業，看起來你是否只是因為股價上漲而避免了經濟低迷？因為你提到它仍然更強大，所以有任何跡像或擔心它會在其他領域跟進嗎？只是好奇——我認為去年年初，你預計交付量至少增長 40%。但是汽車看起來如何，如果你看到任何可能的標誌，它們是一種高庫存，或者強度看起來會繼續？

Well, right now, the automotive remains to be very strong, and we are looking at the continued growth in 2023 for the full year. But in terms of percentage right now, it's very, very difficult to make that judgment call. But we are seeing strong forecast.

好吧，現在，汽車行業仍然非常強勁，我們期待 2023 年全年的持續增長。但就目前的百分比而言，很難做出這樣的判斷。但我們看到了強勁的預測。

Our next question is from Ms. Laura Chen.

我們的下一個問題來自 Laura Chen 女士。

Can you hear me?

你能聽到我嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Yes. I also have a follow-up question on the gross margin. Aside from the lower utilization rate and also the foreign exchange impact, I'm just wondering that it's more due to the lower loading, bumping or wirebonding? Or could you also give us some utilization rate for different applications or technology, is that possible?

是的。我還有一個關於毛利率的後續問題。除了較低的利用率和外匯影響，我只是想知道這更多是由於較低的負載、碰撞或引線鍵合？或者你也可以給我們一些不同應用程序或技術的利用率，這可能嗎？

I think the overall margin erosion is across the board because of the lower loading that we're facing now. But in terms of different services, I think advanced packaging is doing relatively better than wirebonding at this point. And I think across the board, the margin structure is pretty similar across different services.

我認為由於我們現在面臨的負荷較低，整體利潤率下降是全面的。但在不同的服務方面，我認為先進封裝在這一點上比引線鍵合做得更好。而且我認為總體而言，不同服務的利潤率結構非常相似。

Okay. And also my follow-up question is on the testing business. Could you remind us what's the current internal supply or internal percentage of the testing business, and do you see that will further grow for the coming years?

好的。我的後續問題也是關於測試業務的。您能否提醒我們目前測試業務的內部供應或內部百分比是多少，您是否認為未來幾年會進一步增長？

Internal supply?

內部供應？

Yes. Sorry, I mean the testing business portion internally. Like, we previously mentioned that we were -- strategy to increase our testing business and the equipment, I'm not sure if that will continue the direction.

是的。抱歉，我指的是內部測試業務部分。就像，我們之前提到過我們——增加我們的測試業務和設備的戰略，我不確定這是否會繼續這個方向。

I think in '22, I think the test portion of the business continue to grow a little bit, still hovering around 15%. And with the growing momentum, we believe that in 2023 or this year, that ratio will continue to rise. So we -- in this year's CapEx, I think the compensation will be a little bit different from last year. In terms of the overall CapEx for ATM -- for the group, roughly 55% is for assembly and then 35% is for test. I think that would -- that's going to change this year to 44% and 38%. So the investment in test will continue at a faster pace than the assembly.

我認為在 22 年，我認為業務的測試部分會繼續增長一點，仍然徘徊在 15% 左右。隨著增長勢頭，我們相信在 2023 年或今年，該比例將繼續上升。所以我們——在今年的資本支出中，我認為補償會與去年有所不同。就 ATM 的整體資本支出而言——對於集團而言，大約 55% 用於組裝，然後 35% 用於測試。我認為這將 - 今年將變為 44% 和 38%。因此，測試投資將繼續以比組裝更快的速度進行。

We have a question from Ms. Vian Chu of Daiwa.

Daiwa 的 Vian Chu 女士有一個問題。

Yes. This is Rick. No worries, I'm using my associate's name. So right. It's a housekeeping. Can you provide your utilization rates across the board of packaging, bumping and testing for Q4 last year and Q1 this year?

是的。這是瑞克。不用擔心，我用的是我同事的名字。太對了。這是家政服務。您能否提供去年第四季度和今年第一季度的封裝、凸塊和測試的整體利用率？

I'd say last Q4, I think as we expected, it's around 80% across the board. But for this quarter, I think it's really not very meaningful to talk about utilization at this point, because the destocking and the soft demand has been driving our loading quite substantially. So I don't think it's really meaningful at this point to report these numbers for this quarter.

我想說的是去年第四季度，我認為正如我們預期的那樣，總體上約為 80%。但對於本季度，我認為此時談論利用率真的不是很有意義，因為去庫存和疲軟的需求一直在大幅推動我們的裝載。因此，我認為此時報告本季度的這些數字並沒有什麼意義。

Okay. So basically, suboptimal, right.

好的。所以基本上，次優，對。

Right.

正確的。

Yes, a quick follow-up, yes? Right, suboptimal. So a quick follow-up. Based on this low loading in Q1, and I guess, the logic affects your gross margin for ATM. And apart from that, you also mentioned about the currency exchange for Tier 3. And anything else that's dragging down the gross margin for ATM? Is -- would that be coming from the pricing?

是的，快速跟進，是嗎？對，次優。所以快速跟進。基於第一季度的這種低負載，我猜，邏輯會影響您的 ATM 毛利率。除此之外，您還提到了 Tier 3 的貨幣兌換。還有什麼其他因素拖累了 ATM 的毛利率？是 - 那會來自定價嗎？

Yes. As I mentioned, the pricing impact is very, very minimum. In fact, in the first quarter, we have gone through a round of pricing negotiation and the -- as Tien mentioned, I think we are still maintaining our pricing resiliency.

是的。正如我所提到的，定價影響非常非常小。事實上，在第一季度，我們已經進行了一輪定價談判——正如 Tien 所提到的，我認為我們仍在保持定價彈性。

Next question is from Mr. Szeho Ng of China Renaissance.

下一個問題來自華興資本的吳思豪先生。

Gentlemen, I have 2 questions regarding the CapEx this year. Can you share with us the CapEx breakdown by your major site locations?

先生們，我有兩個關於今年資本支出的問題。您能否與我們分享您主要站點位置的資本支出明細？

Let me get back to you on this.

讓我就此回复你。

Okay. No problem. And regarding the CapEx spending at the first half compared with the second half, how to remodel here?

好的。沒問題。而關於上半年CapEx支出與下半年相比，這裡如何改造？

I'm sorry?

對不起？

I mean the spending pattern, first half compared with the second half of this year?

我的意思是支出模式，今年上半年與下半年相比？

Spending pattern. I think the bulk of the investment will be made in the second half of the year. Maybe with the 45:55 type of split.

消費模式。我認為大部分投資將在下半年進行。也許使用 45:55 類型的拆分。

Okay.

好的。

Let me ask a question. Did you -- were you referring to site type of...

讓我問一個問題。你——你指的是……的網站類型嗎？

At the location. Let's say, China, Taiwan, Korea, the cash breakdown.

在該位置。比方說，中國、台灣、韓國，現金分解。

Okay. I'll pass it to the numbers, later for you.

好的。我會把它傳遞給數字，稍後再給你。

Yes. Very rough breakdown review.

是的。非常粗略的細分審查。

Okay.

好的。

Next question is from Mr. Brad Lin of BoA.

下一個問題來自美國銀行的Brad Lin先生。

I have 2 questions. One is on the outsourcing trend from the IDM, and secondly is on the ABF substrate. So the first question is that are we foreseeing a larger outsourcing trend from maybe a, well, global-leading IDM? And then should we expect any tech or capacity difficulty if the order really come? And then second question would be on the ABF substrate. Is the ABF substrate supply turning loose in this year? And also, is the ABF cost trending lower recently, and should we expect it to turn tighter again when demand come back in second half of the year or 2024?

我有兩個問題。一是IDM外包趨勢，二是ABF基板。所以第一個問題是，我們是否預見到來自全球領先的 IDM 的更大外包趨勢？如果訂單真的來了，我們是否應該期待任何技術或產能方面的困難？然後第二個問題是關於 ABF 底物的。今年ABF基板供應是否鬆動？此外，最近 ABF 成本是否呈下降趨勢，我們是否應該期望在今年下半年或 2024 年需求回升時再次收緊？

The IDM outsourcing, I think a good example would be the automotive business because automotive business traditionally are being conducted within the IDM, the front-end and the back-end capacity of the facility. We continue to see the automotive business and the industrial business to move up in this environment. That lead us to believe that either we are processing something the IDM cannot do or they prefer not to do it. I think the light-out factory, as well as some of the advanced technology, are good examples. So I think that trend will continue. The ABF substrate situation, the supply is better. I will not say that we're completely out of the supply constraint situation. I will not comment on the pricing, because the pricing is quite dynamic.

IDM 外包，我認為汽車業務就是一個很好的例子，因為汽車業務傳統上是在 IDM、設施的前端和後端能力內進行的。我們繼續看到汽車業務和工業業務在這種環境下向上發展。這讓我們相信要么我們正在處理 IDM 不能做的事情，要么他們不想做。我覺得熄燈廠，還有一些先進的技術，都是很好的例子。所以我認為這種趨勢將繼續下去。 ABF基板情況，貨源較好。我不會說我們完全擺脫了供應緊張的局面。我不會對定價發表評論，因為定價非常動態。

We have a question from Mr. Bruce Lu of Goldman Sachs.

我們有一個來自高盛的Bruce Lu 先生的問題。

Can you hear me?

你能聽到我嗎？

Yes, we can hear you.

是的，我們能聽到你的聲音。

Yes. I think the first 1 is for the smart manufacturing. I mean, I think this is the first time the company was talking about that. Can you be more specific what is the tradition of smart manufacturing? What's the revenue contribution from the smart manufacturing? What kind of profitability for that, and what kind of growth should we expect for the smart manufacturing in 2023?

是的。我認為第一個是智能製造。我的意思是，我認為這是公司第一次談論這個。能具體說說智能製造的傳統是什麼嗎？智能製造的收入貢獻是多少？ 2023年智能製造的盈利能力如何，我們應該期待什麼樣的增長？

Well, it's basically fully-automated factories that we have. We sometimes call it unmanned factory or lights-out factories, means everything is on automated lines. And right now, we have about -- at the end of '22, we have 36 lights-out factories already, and we're going to 44 factories this year. We will continue to make further investment into automating our manufacturing capacity. I think the -- in terms of the revenue contribution, the capacity represents about 15% of our overall ATM in 2022, and it's going to increase to close to over 20% this year.

好吧，我們擁有的基本上是全自動工廠。我們有時稱它為無人工廠或熄燈工廠，意味著一切都在自動化生產線上。現在，我們大約有——在 22 年底，我們已經有 36 家熄燈工廠，今年我們將有 44 家工廠。我們將繼續進一步投資以實現製造能力的自動化。我認為 - 就收入貢獻而言，到 2022 年，容量約占我們整體 ATM 的 15%，今年將增加到接近 20% 以上。

22% increased to 20%?

22% 增加到 20%？

No, 15% to 20%.

不，15% 到 20%。

Okay, okay. Sorry about that. Okay. Good. I think the next question is for the SiP business. I mean, I understand that you might have the inventory corrections for the last year's product or whatever, right? Can you talk about the -- what kind of like new SiP projects can we expect for this year onwards? What kind of SiP revenue growth is excluding -- well, that's excluding the first quarter abnormal situation, what kind of like SiP growth outlook can we expect there?

好吧好吧。對於那個很抱歉。好的。好的。我認為下一個問題是針對 SiP 業務的。我的意思是，我知道您可能對去年的產品或其他產品進行了庫存更正，對嗎？你能談談——我們可以期待從今年開始有什麼樣的新 SiP 項目嗎？什麼樣的 SiP 收入增長被排除在外 - 嗯，那不包括第一季度的異常情況，我們可以期待什麼樣的 SiP 增長前景？

Well, I think by and large, I think it's going to be a more challenging year in terms of our SiP business for the year given that it's, first of all, mostly in the consumer sector, and that's still going through a lot of turmoil at this point. And so it's still a lot of uncertainties in front of us. We believe, in longer-term sense, the trend will continue as we continue to see further heterogeneous integration. But in terms of how much growth or how much business we will have in terms of SiP for this coming year, I think that remains to be seen. But by and large, it's more challenging than last year. But we are still making pretty good progress in terms of expanding our project as well as with new customers at this point.

好吧，我認為總的來說，我認為就今年的 SiP 業務而言，這將是更具挑戰性的一年，因為它首先主要在消費領域，而且仍在經歷很多動盪在此刻。因此，擺在我們面前的不確定因素仍然很多。我們相信，從長遠來看，隨著我們繼續看到進一步的異構整合，這種趨勢將繼續下去。但就來年我們在 SiP 方面的增長或業務量而言，我認為還有待觀察。但總的來說，它比去年更具挑戰性。但就目前而言，我們在擴展我們的項目以及與新客戶方面仍然取得了相當大的進展。

Next question is from Ms. Sunny Lin of UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀的Sunny Lin女士。

Could you hear me?

你能聽見我？

Yes.

是的。

So my first question is to follow up on the smart manufacturing. So if we look at fully-automated fabs versus your traditional fabs, how much margin expansion could you expect?

所以我的第一個問題是跟進智能製造。因此，如果我們比較全自動晶圓廠與您的傳統晶圓廠，您預計利潤率會增加多少？

The margin expansion is difficult to quantify because the smart manufacturing, it is easier to gain business when you have a fully-automated factory. Also, the business you're gaining tend to be requirement on high reliability. So we do have some tangible as well as intangible benefit from the fully-automated manufacturing. We also provide customers with the full transparency of all of the data that go with the automated manufacturing.

利潤率的擴張很難量化，因為智能製造，當你擁有一個全自動化的工廠時，更容易獲得業務。此外，您獲得的業務往往需要高可靠性。因此，我們確實從全自動製造中獲得了一些有形和無形的好處。我們還為客戶提供與自動化製造相關的所有數據的完全透明。

If you are thinking about the margin expansion, I believe the -- since we started building the first automated factory, the margin continues to improve. I think all of the margin improvement has been revealed in the previous years of margin expansion. As I've indicated this year, we have -- last year, we had 1%. If you go back to the 2021, 2020, and then we'll continue to have margin expansion.

如果你正在考慮利潤率的擴張，我相信——自從我們開始建設第一家自動化工廠以來，利潤率在不斷提高。我認為所有的利潤率改善都在前幾年的利潤率擴張中得到了體現。正如我今年所指出的，我們有——去年，我們有 1%。如果你回到 2021 年、2020 年，然後我們將繼續擴大利潤率。

Got it. And maybe a quick follow-up on your full-year EMS outlook. You provided some growth expectation for IC ATM, I wonder if you could also provide us some color on EMS as well?

知道了。也許可以快速跟進您的全年 EMS 展望。您對IC ATM提供了一些增長預期，不知道您是否也可以為我們提供一些關於EMS的顏色？

Well, I think -- yes, USI has reported 2 days ago. I think what they're projecting is that this year will be a flattish to a slightly-downward year. But it really depends on the -- how the overall economic situation in China turn out, they still believe that they will have a chance of a small growth for the year.

嗯，我想——是的，USI 已經在 2 天前報導過。我認為他們預測的是，今年將是持平甚至略有下滑的一年。但這真的取決於——中國的整體經濟形勢如何，他們仍然相信他們今年會有小幅增長的機會。

Next question is from Mr...

下一個問題來自...先生

I'm sorry. I think they are also expecting sequential growth on a quarterly basis over the year.

對不起。我認為他們還期望在一年中按季度連續增長。

Next question is from Mr. Gokul Hariharan of JPMorgan.

下一個問題來自摩根大通的Gokul Hariharan先生。

So first of all, on the CapEx for this year, could you give us a little bit more color how much CapEx is likely to be down year-on-year, given your more conservative stance and spending? And also, any idea -- are customers asking you to have capacity more built up outside the Greater China region, especially Southeast Asia? And any request from clients also to go to maybe U.S. or other locations in terms of the supply chain diversification, especially for ATM?

所以首先，關於今年的資本支出，你能否給我們更多的顏色，考慮到你更保守的立場和支出，資本支出可能會同比下降多少？而且，任何想法 - 客戶是否要求您在大中華區以外，特別是東南亞建立更多的能力？客戶是否也要求在供應鏈多元化方面去美國或其他地方，尤其是 ATM？

Okay. So ATM last year, we had total machinery CapEx of around $1.6 billion, a little -- about $1.6 billion. And this year, I think it's going to be a few hundred million dollars below that number for this year. But as I reported earlier on, the composition of such CapEx would be a bit different. It will be more test heavy this year than last year. The composition will be 44%. At this point, we're looking at 44% to 45% for assembly and then 38%, 39% for test, about 10% to 11% for EMS and the rest for material. And also to answer the earlier question about site allocation. I think in terms of different regions, in Taiwan, we will have roughly 65% of the CapEx being spent in Taiwan sites, 25% or lower in China and roughly 10% for the rest of the world.

好的。因此，去年 ATM，我們的機器資本支出總額約為 16 億美元，大約 16 億美元。而今年，我認為它會比今年的數字低幾億美元。但正如我之前報導的那樣，此類資本支出的構成會有所不同。今年的考試比去年更重。組成將是44%。在這一點上，我們正在尋找 44% 到 45% 的裝配，然後是 38%，39% 的測試，大約 10% 到 11% 的 EMS，其餘的用於材料。還要回答之前關於站點分配的問題。我認為就不同地區而言，在台灣，我們將有大約 65% 的資本支出用於台灣地區，25% 或更低用於中國，大約 10% 用於世界其他地區。

Let me comment on the geographic locations for the ATM part of the business. As you know, in the next few years, majority of the high-end packaging wafers will continue to be out of Taiwan. So when we talk to our customers, it is very clear that we will focus on the execution to make sure all of the advanced packaging demand get fulfilled. There is no question about the integrity of the Taiwan supply chain.

讓我評論業務的 ATM 部分的地理位置。大家知道，未來幾年，大部分高端封裝晶圓將繼續出台。因此，當我們與客戶交談時，很明顯我們將專注於執行以確保滿足所有先進封裝需求。台灣供應鏈的完整性毋庸置疑。

Let me comment on -- customers do have requirements for expanding capacity outside of Taiwan. The proposal today depending on working with each customer on their requirements. We have made announcement that we will be continuing to be the capacity expansion in Malaysia, Singapore and Korea. Some of the factories will expand traditional packages to make sure the customer does have flexibility to have order fulfilled in Taiwan or outside of Taiwan.

讓我評論一下——客戶確實有擴大台灣以外產能的要求。今天的提案取決於與每個客戶的合作，以滿足他們的要求。我們已經宣布，我們將繼續在馬來西亞、新加坡和韓國進行產能擴張。一些工廠將擴展傳統包裝，以確保客戶確實可以靈活地在台灣或台灣以外的地方完成訂單。

For the high-end advanced packaging outside of Taiwan, the first question we need to ask is the source of the wafer. Until that question's get answered, it is really not a real question. There has been a lot of conversation in terms of in future when the advanced wafer is ready, how do we fulfill? Then we're talking to each customer regarding the source of the wafer, the number of the wafers, the required advanced packaging type and also the necessity to be fulfilled with indeed different geographic locations.

對於台灣以外的高端先進封裝，首先要問的問題就是晶圓的來源。在這個問題得到回答之前，它真的不是一個真正的問題。關於未來當先進晶圓準備好時，我們如何實現？然後我們與每個客戶討論晶圓的來源、晶圓的數量、所需的先進封裝類型以及在不同地理位置實現的必要性。

So it's a very, very convoluted conversation right now. But I do acknowledge that the ASE is under a lot of attention, negotiating or discussing with the multiple layers of customers as well as agencies regarding the future requirement. However, that is a longer-term implementation. For the shorter term, we are expanding facilities to make sure the -- if a customer requires anything to have flexibility, it will get fulfilled within our current footprint. We do acknowledge the possibility of expanding our footprint, ATM, other than the current facility that we have. Geographically, we do acknowledge that. However, that will be longer term.

所以現在這是一個非常非常複雜的對話。但我確實承認，ASE 受到了很多關注，正在與多層次的客戶和機構就未來的需求進行談判或討論。然而，這是一個長期的實施。從短期來看，我們正在擴大設施以確保——如果客戶需要任何具有靈活性的東西，它將在我們目前的足跡內得到滿足。我們確實承認有可能擴大我們的足跡，ATM，而不是我們目前擁有的設施。從地理上講，我們確實承認這一點。但是，這將是更長期的。

Understood. That's very clear. If I may ask 1 more question. Could you talk a little bit about ASE's current exposure and presence in 2.5D and 3D packaging? You already have some HPC customers who are already ramping up their 2.5D and 3D offerings, and it seems like this is starting to become a little bit more adopted. So could you talk a little bit about ASE's environment? We do hear a lot of foundry environment, but just wanted to also get about ASE's involvement in this area? And any kind of exposure in terms of revenue, et cetera, that you could share?

明白了。這很清楚。如果我可以再問 1 個問題。您能談談 ASE 目前在 2.5D 和 3D 封裝方面的曝光度和存在感嗎？您已經有一些 HPC 客戶已經在增加他們的 2.5D 和 3D 產品，而且似乎開始被更多人採用。那麼您能談談 ASE 的環境嗎？我們確實聽說過很多代工環境，但只是想了解 ASE 在這一領域的參與情況嗎？您可以分享在收入等方面的任何形式的風險敞口嗎？

The 2.5D, it's a very, very long engagement history of ASE. And I think we're the first one to produce the -- one of the leading edge product with 1 of our key customers. We present the first generation machines using 2.5D, and there has been ongoing development with almost all of our customers, tried to polish the 2.5D, the fan-out and also different form of fan-out as well as the different form of chiplet in 3D.

2.5D 是 ASE 非常非常長的參與歷史。而且我認為我們是第一個生產 - 與我們的一個主要客戶一起生產的領先產品之一。我們展示了使用 2.5D 的第一代機器，並且一直在與我們幾乎所有的客戶進行開發，嘗試完善 2.5D、扇出以及不同形式的扇出以及不同形式的小芯片在 3D 中。

That's a major initiative of the whole company, and I can only say that we will continue to be very interested and very engaged with all of our customers as well as a foundry partner, and a big growth business. Our customer would like to have the -- all of the flexibility, all of the possibility out of the channels, and ASE is committed to be one of the channel to fulfill the customers' requirement, working with customers as well as our partners in foundry.

這是整個公司的一項重大舉措，我只能說我們將繼續對我們所有的客戶以及鑄造合作夥伴和一個巨大的增長業務非常感興趣並積極參與。我們的客戶希望擁有渠道之外的所有靈活性和所有可能性，ASE 致力於成為滿足客戶需求的渠道之一，與客戶以及我們在代工領域的合作夥伴一起工作.

We have a question from Mr. Bruce Lu of Goldman Sachs.

我們有一個來自高盛的Bruce Lu 先生的問題。

I have a question about the SiP geographical production. I think that your SiP production is highly, highly concentrated in China. I mean, do you have any plan to expand like other capacity, or do you have the customer requesting you to have additional ex-China capacity?

我有一個關於 SiP 地理生產的問題。我認為你們的 SiP 生產高度、高度集中在中國。我的意思是，您是否有計劃像其他產能一樣擴大，或者您是否有客戶要求您擁有額外的中國以外產能？

Yes. Actually, this is a work in progress. We already have something set up in Vietnam, and it has started mass production already. And we will continue to look at our customers' request to further expand within or outside of China to suit our customers' needs.

是的。實際上，這是一項正在進行的工作。我們已經在越南建立了一些東西，並且已經開始量產。我們將繼續關注客戶的要求，在中國境內外進一步擴張，以滿足客戶的需求。

So what kind of capacity outside of China in 2 years, like 20%, 30%, or?

那麼2年內中國以外的產能是多少，比如20%、30%，或者？

Right now, I think the overall in terms of non-China production is about 35% of the company's revenue.

目前，我認為非中國生產的總體收入約占公司收入的 35%。

Yes. But you have to exclude the AFG one?

是的。但是您必須排除AFG嗎？

Yes, that includes AFG.

是的，這包括 AFG。

How about excluding AFG? Because I don't think AFG can do SiP, right?

排除AFG怎麼樣？因為我不認為AFG可以做SiP，對吧？

25%. 25%.

25%。 25%。

It's roughly 25%.

大約是25%。

I see. So 25% of SiP's capacity will be outside of China in 2 years. Is that the right expectation?

我懂了。因此，2 年內 25% 的 SiP 產能將在中國以外。這是正確的期望嗎？

Right.

正確的。

Okay. Another question is we do see that your EBITDA is much higher than the CapEx number. I mean, you have improved that for the last say, 7, 8 quarters already. Can we expect a much higher payout ratio in 2023 and onwards, because the cash flow generated is impressive.

好的。另一個問題是我們確實看到您的 EBITDA 遠高於資本支出數字。我的意思是，你已經改進了最後說的 7、8 個季度。我們能否期望 2023 年及以後的派息率更高，因為產生的現金流量令人印象深刻。

I know this is coming. We will maintain our payout ratio of 60% to 65%.

我知道這即將到來。我們將維持 60% 至 65% 的派息率。

I'm sorry, I won.

對不起，我贏了。

We hope -- I think it's important to keep the transparency and clarity on the payout ratio. We said it's 60% to 65%, and that number is there.

我們希望——我認為保持支付比率的透明度和清晰度很重要。我們說它是 60% 到 65%，這個數字就在那裡。

I see. Understand. So the excess cash flow will mainly be used for -- to improve the debt ratio, or?

我懂了。理解。那麼超額現金流將主要用於——改善負債率，或者？

Right now, I think we still need to fund our overall operation, including CapEx. And not just on the machinery side of it, we're also expanding quite a bit in terms of our buildings and land. Actually, last year alone and continuing in this year, we'll be spending more than $800 million for real estate as well. And also, we did lower our leverage quite a bit last year. So at the end of the year, we only have a net debt-to-equity ratio of 43%, which we believe is more health -- it's a healthier level. Going -- and looking at this downturn or market softness, we do want to have a better reserve in terms of our cash to see because there could be consolidation opportunities as well. So I think that's the general picture of our overall test situation.

現在，我認為我們仍然需要為我們的整體運營提供資金，包括資本支出。不僅在機械方面，我們還在建築物和土地方面進行了相當大的擴張。實際上，僅去年一年，今年繼續如此，我們在房地產方面的支出也將超過 8 億美元。而且，去年我們確實降低了槓桿率。因此，到年底，我們的淨債務權益比率僅為 43%，我們認為這更健康——這是一個更健康的水平。繼續 - 看看這種低迷或市場疲軟，我們確實希望在我們的現金方面有更好的儲備，因為也可能存在整合機會。所以我認為這就是我們整體測試情況的概況。

Just a sign out. If you look at in the past 20 years, every single downturn, ASE gained share without any exception. I'm not saying that this is a downturn, but we are going through a correction. It can be 1 quarter, it can be 2 quarters. Right now, we have high confidence we will also gain share in this correction.

只是一個簽出。如果你看看過去 20 年，每一次低迷，日月光都無一例外地獲得了份額。我並不是說這是一場低迷，但我們正在經歷一場調整。可以是1個季度，也可以是2個季度。現在，我們非常有信心我們也將在這次調整中獲得份額。

Then the question is the next op cycle. I know it's a little bit long term, but this is what the operator needs to think about it. How do we expand our footprint as well as land space, facility space. Because keep in mind, in the COVID days, in the previous 2.5 years, we have literally depleted all of the factory reserved space because of the high demand. We are going through Q1 destocking effort, but let's not forget the longer-term horizon in case semiconductor will resume the path of GDP plus.

那麼問題是下一個op週期。我知道這有點長遠，但這是運營商需要考慮的問題。我們如何擴大我們的足跡以及土地空間、設施空間。因為請記住，在 COVID 時代，在過去的 2.5 年裡，由於需求量大，我們實際上已經耗盡了所有工廠預留空間。我們正在經歷第一季度的去庫存努力，但我們不要忘記更長期的前景，以防半導體恢復 GDP 增長的路徑。

ASE resumed the path of gaining share. In the next few years, we will need more building space in Taiwan as well as outside of Taiwan of different technology. And also, if you look at NPI, right now, there's a lot of very exciting new applications and new technology, and all of which will require a lot of attention and investment.

ASE 重新開始了獲得份額的道路。未來幾年，我們需要在台灣和台灣以外的不同技術領域有更多的建設空間。而且，如果你看看 NPI，現在有很多非常令人興奮的新應用和新技術，所有這些都需要大量的關注和投資。

So I believe that, yes, ASE is very mindful of the short-term cash management as well as the payout ratio. But also, I think for the shareholder as well as for the semiconductor industry, we really need to be mindful of the long-term potential. And ASE really would like to be a responsible partner to make sure we fulfill all of the possible scenarios.

所以我相信，是的，ASE 非常注意短期現金管理和派息率。而且，我認為對於股東和半導體行業來說，我們確實需要關注長期潛力。 ASE 真的很想成為一個負責任的合作夥伴，以確保我們滿足所有可能的場景。

(Operator Instructions) We've got a question from Bruce Lu of Goldman Sachs.

（操作員說明）高盛的 Bruce Lu 提出了一個問題。

Well, I have another question. Sorry about that. I just have 1 more. TSMC was talking about like sales and value for their product, which the geographical location is a value. I think as you mentioned, like ASE has the most diversified capacity globally in all kind of different countries and cities, which is the value, right? Do you consider to sell this value, which means that you increase your price in your overseas capacity?

好吧，我還有一個問題。對於那個很抱歉。我還有 1 個。台積電正在談論他們產品的銷售和價值，地理位置是一種價值。我認為正如你提到的，像 ASE 在全球各種不同的國家和城市擁有最多樣化的能力，這就是價值，對吧？您是否考慮出售這個價值，這意味著您在海外能力中提高價格？

The value, how do you define the value? The value is really the service the -- as well as the quality and the timing that you provided to customers. And I believe the -- you are correct. There could be 1 scenario where the timing, the location would present. It becomes a tangible value for the customers. But all of these are in the making. The fact that we are expanding over -- we're expanding Singapore and Malaysian footprint, and they were also creating a mirror side of some of the facilities from Taiwan to overseas, that secure the long-term partnership and further gain the confidence from our customer that ASE is willing to do whatever it takes to make sure the local, the customer, the regulatory requirements are fulfilled.

價值，你如何定義價值？價值實際上是服務——以及您向客戶提供的質量和時間。我相信——你是對的。可能有 1 種情況，其中時間、位置會出現。它成為客戶的有形價值。但所有這些都在醞釀之中。事實上，我們正在擴大——我們正在擴大新加坡和馬來西亞的足跡，他們還在從台灣到海外建立一些設施的鏡像，這確保了長期的合作夥伴關係，並進一步獲得了我們的信心ASE 願意盡一切努力確保當地、客戶和監管要求得到滿足。

Does that present a value long term? Yes. Now, with that value, can we only reflect the value from a pricing increase? I'm not exactly sure because NPI, the every generation, 8 months or 18 months, I think the business is really look at the technology partnership, volume partnership, and I think it goes much, much deeper than ASE.

這是否具有長期價值？是的。現在，有了這個價值，我們是否只能反映價格上漲的價值？我不太確定，因為 NPI，每一代，8 個月或 18 個月，我認為企業真正關注的是技術合作夥伴關係、批量合作夥伴關係，而且我認為它比 ASE 深入得多。

I see. I mean, for -- I would say from the -- at least what TSMC were saying was like, they just charge a different pricing in different geographical location. I mean, of course, I understand that the value includes a lot of things. And the investors in general are more simplistic, that -- can we expect some of the pricing differential among the different capacity geographical locations?

我懂了。我的意思是，因為 - 我會說 - 至少台積電所說的是，他們只是在不同的地理位置收取不同的價格。我的意思是，當然，我明白價值包括很多東西。總體而言，投資者更簡單，即 - 我們可以預期不同容量地理位置之間的一些定價差異嗎？

I'm not sure. I'm not sure what is the politically correct way to answer that question. My apologies, all right. So I'm sorry, I'm going to pass that question.

我不知道。我不確定回答該問題的政治正確方法是什麼。對不起，好吧。所以對不起，我要通過這個問題。

Okay. I understand that.

好的。我明白那個。

(Operator Instructions) There is no more questions on forum.

（操作員說明）論壇上沒有更多問題。

Okay. Thank you, everyone.

好的。謝謝大家。

Thank you very much. Happy Chinese New Year.

非常感謝。中國新年快樂。

Okay. Bye-bye.

好的。再見。