Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson (ERIC) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Ericsson's Third Quarter 2023 Results. With me today, I have here in [CEST], our CFO, Carl Mellander; and direct from New York, I have our CEO, Borje Ekholm.

大家好，歡迎閱讀愛立信 2023 年第三季業績。今天和我在一起的還有我們的財務長 Carl Mellander；我們的執行長 Borje Ekholm 直接從紐約請來。

Last week Thursday we preannounced our Q3 numbers as we announced the impairment of goodwill attributed to our acquisition of Vonage. Today, however, we will not only give you more details around the Q3 report and expectations going forward, we would actually also spend some time talking about our GNP strategy.

上週週四，我們預先公佈了第三季的數據，因為我們宣布了收購 Vonage 造成的商譽減損。然而，今天，我們不僅會向您提供有關第三季度報告和未來預期的更多詳細信息，實際上我們還會花一些時間討論我們的國民生產總值戰略。

So we'll start with Borje, summarizing Q3, and then we'll talk more about the GNP strategy. And then Carl will return back and give [a] more details around the Q3 results and expectations going forward. As usual, we will end the presentation with a Q&A session.

因此，我們將從 Borje 開始，總結第三季度，然後我們將更多地討論 GNP 策略。然後卡爾將回來並提供有關第三季度業績和未來預期的更多詳細資訊。像往常一樣，我們將以問答環節結束演示。

In order to ask those questions, you need to join the conference by telephone. Details can be found at today's press release or at our website, ericsson.com/investors. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.

為了提出這些問題，您需要透過電話加入會議。詳情請參閱今天的新聞稿或我們的網站 ericsson.com/investors。請注意，今天的會議正在錄製中。

But before handing over to Borje and Carl, I would like to say the following. During today's presentation, we will be making forward-looking statements. These statements are based on our current expectations and certain planning assumptions, which are subject to risks and uncertainties. The actual results may differ materially due to factors mentioned in today's press release and discussed in this conference call. We encourage you all to read about these risks and uncertainties in the earnings report as well as in the annual report.

但在交給博爾杰​​和卡爾之前，我想說以下幾點。在今天的演講中，我們將做出前瞻性陳述。這些陳述是基於我們目前的預期和某些計劃假設，這些假設存在風險和不確定性。由於今天的新聞稿中提到的以及本次電話會議中討論的因素，實際結果可能會存在重大差異。我們鼓勵大家閱讀收益報告和年度報告中的這些風險和不確定性。

With that said, I would like to hand over the word to Borje. So please, Borje.

話雖如此，我想把這個詞交給博爾傑。所以拜託，博爾傑。

Okay. Thanks, Peter. First of all, welcome to our report presentation for the third quarter, and thanks, everyone, for joining us. As Peter mentioned, we will spend some more time now on GNP in this presentation. But first, let me hit on some key takeaways.

好的。謝謝，彼得。首先歡迎大家參加我們的第三季報告，感謝大家的參與。正如彼得所提到的，我們將在本次演講中花更多時間討論國民生產毛額。但首先，讓我先談談一些關鍵要點。

So Q3 was in line with our previously indicated expectations, but with a bit softer top line in North America than we expected, but with better margins in the rest of the business. Despite the uncertain macroeconomic backdrop, we continue to execute against our 3 key priorities: strengthen our leadership in mobile networks built upon technology leadership, grow our enterprise business, and drive a continued cultural transformation. We're encouraged by the progress we're making, and it's truly a testament to the strength of our team, our strategy and the excellence of our products and our ability to execute.

因此，第三季符合我們先前的預期，但北美地區的營收比我們預期的要軟一些，但其他業務的利潤率更高。儘管宏觀經濟背景存在不確定性，我們仍繼續執行我們的三個關鍵優先事項：加強我們在技術領先地位的行動網路領域的領導地位，發展我們的企業業務，並推動持續的文化轉型。我們對所取得的進步感到鼓舞，這確實證明了我們團隊的實力、我們的策略、我們產品的卓越性以及我們的執行能力。

I would like to use this presentation to describe why we are excited about what we're creating with GNP and the value we believe it will deliver to our shareholders. Carl will take you through the more financials in detail, and outlook in greater detail.

我想用這個演講來描述為什麼我們對我們用 GNP 創造的東西感到興奮，以及我們相信它將為我們的股東帶來的價值。卡爾將帶您了解更多詳細的財務狀況和更詳細的前景。

So in common with the rest of the industry, rising interest rates and changing demand trends have been headwinds to Vonage current core business, and the impairment we took last week is simply a consequence of this. And Vonage in itself remains key to our expansion into Enterprise and to the transformation of our business. We believe this is a massive opportunity that can redefine our industry by providing a new source of revenues to the whole industry.

因此，與行業其他公司一樣，利率上升和需求趨勢變化一直是 Vonage 當前核心業務的不利因素，而我們上週的減損只是其結果。 Vonage 本身仍然是我們向企業擴張和業務轉型的關鍵。我們相信這是一個巨大的機會，可以透過為整個產業提供新的收入來源來重新定義我們的產業。

But first, let me touch on the market environment. Over the last 2 decades, we've seen that investments in the mobile infrastructure have had built-in cycles, and in aggregate, it's been overall flattish. We believe this pattern will continue.

但首先，讓我先談談市場環境。在過去的 20 年中，我們看到行動基礎設施的投資具有內在的周期，而且總體而言，投資總體持平。我們相信這種模式將會持續下去。

We don't believe the peak levels of 2022 will return, but we do believe that the investments will normalize from current levels. And the reason for this recovery is that data traffic continues to grow, and thus, more capacity will be needed as well as modernizations of the networks will be needed. So it's important to note that while data traffic continues to grow at a very high rate, this implies a market normalization, not an incremental market growth.

我們認為 2022 年的高峰水準不會回歸，但我們確實相信投資將從當前水準恢復正常。這種復甦的原因是資料流量持續成長，因此需要更多的容量以及網路的現代化。因此，值得注意的是，雖然數據流量繼續以非常高的速度成長，但這意味著市場正常化，而不是增量市場成長。

So the reason for a flattish market for mobile infrastructure is really that the operator service revenues have only had very limited growth. And this is something we actually also see reflected in the operators' market multiples. So to achieve growth in our core infrastructure market, we need a catalyst to increase service revenue growth for the operators, and we need that by addressing new monetization opportunities, and this is what we've been driving with our Global Network Platform, and more on that later on.

因此，行動基礎設施市場表現平淡的原因實際上是營運商服務收入的成長非常有限。我們實際上也看到營運商的市場倍數反映了這一點。因此，為了實現核心基礎設施市場的成長，我們需要催化劑來增加營運商的服務收入成長，我們需要透過解決新的貨幣化機會來實現這一點，這就是我們一直在透過全球網路平台等推動的目標稍後再談。

We remain committed to our long-term EBITA margin target of 15% to 18%, and we aim to get there as soon as possible. However, given that our customers are cautious on investments in the current uncertain market environment, we will not give guidance beyond Q4 of this year.

我們仍然致力於 15% 至 18% 的長期 EBITA 利潤率目標，並且我們的目標是盡快實現這一目標。然而，鑑於我們的客戶在當前不確定的市場環境下對投資持謹慎態度，我們將不會在今年第四季之後給予指引。

We have started to see more positive discussions with operators about network investments, but it's clearly too early to call this a turning point. We are, though, confident that the recovery will come, but the timing is really in our customers' hands. And given that, we think it's prudent to plan for current market conditions to prevail into 2024.

我們已經開始看到與營運商就網路投資進行更積極的討論，但現在稱其為轉折點顯然還為時過早。不過，我們對復甦的到來充滿信心，但時機實際上掌握在我們客戶的手中。有鑑於此，我們認為為當前市場狀況制定計劃到 2024 年是明智之舉。

Therefore, that provides the basis for how we manage our business with a focus on cost control as well as operational efficiency. And with the actions we'll take, when the market recovers, we will actually see significant operating leverage in the business.

因此，這為我們如何管理業務提供了基礎，重點在於成本控制和營運效率。透過我們將採取的行動，當市場復甦時，我們實際上將看到業務中顯著的營運槓桿。

So now, let me move over to comment on what we're building with Vonage. As you've heard us say before, we're on the journey to fundamentally reimagine our business. While this takes time, we remain confident in our long-term plans and trajectory and believe that Ericsson has a very exciting future ahead of us.

現在，讓我來評論一下我們與 Vonage 一起建立的內容。正如您之前聽我們說​​過的那樣，我們正在從根本上重新構想我們的業務。雖然這需要時間，但我們對我們的長期計劃和發展軌跡仍然充滿信心，並相信愛立信前面有一個非常令人興奮的未來。

Our enterprise strategy and positive outlook on the Global Network Platform remains unchanged. Positive interactions with customers have further strengthened our belief in the area. From a strategic lens, Vonage is developing how we saw it and how we envisioned it. So with Vonage, we're developing a platform business and have extended our growth trajectory in new and existing markets, adding to our total return profile for our shareholders. None of this would be possible without the acquisition.

我們的企業策略和對全球網路平台的積極展望保持不變。與客戶的積極互動進一步堅定了我們對該領域的信念。從策略角度來看，Vonage 正在發展我們的看法和設想。因此，透過 Vonage，我們正在開發平台業務，並擴展了我們在新市場和現有市場的成長軌跡，增加了我們股東的總回報。如果沒有此次收購，這一切都不可能實現。

This quarter, we were also proud to announce that Vonage was recognized as a Leader in 2023 Gartner Magic Quadrant for CPaaS. But let me take a step back now and expand on our strategy for this area a bit more.

本季度，我們也很自豪地宣布 Vonage 被評為 2023 年 Gartner CPaaS 魔力像限領導者。但現在讓我退後一步，進一步闡述我們在這領域的策略。

So in the coming 5 to 10 years, we will see an acceleration of major trends such as electrification, the Green Revolution, resilient supply chain, increased efficiency, productivity in automation. These trends will not progress unless we fully leverage the mobile-first, cloud-first and AI-first work. Making this future a reality will require ubiquitous high-performance, differentiated networks, and a broad ecosystem of businesses and developers who can innovate and build upon the network's powerful capabilities.

因此，在未來 5 到 10 年中，我們將看到電氣化、綠色革命、彈性供應鏈、自動化效率和生產力提高等主要趨勢的加速發展。除非我們充分利用行動優先、雲端優先和人工智慧優先的工作，否則這些趨勢不會取得進展。要使這一未來成為現實，需要無處不在的高效能、差異化網絡，以及能夠在網絡強大功能的基礎上進行創新和構建的廣泛的企業和開發人員生態系統。

That's what we are doing through our strategy, making networks fully programmable and globally available, will open interfaces and open APIs that enable continuous business growth and innovation. This includes our investments into Cloud RAN. And in doing all this, we can drive a much needy transformation of the telecom industry.

這就是我們透過我們的策略所做的事情，使網路完全可編程並在全球範圍內可用，開放介面和開放 API，從而實現持續的業務成長和創新。這包括我們對 Cloud RAN 的投資。透過完成這一切，我們可以推動電信業急需的轉型。

The Global Network Platform is a vital part in exposing the capabilities of the mobile network to the full ecosystem around us, including the developers. And at the heart of all this is 5G. With 5G, we have a technology that is 10x more powerful than previous generations and actually has a potential to revolutionize society.

全球網路平台是向我們周圍的整個生態系統（包括開發人員）展示行動網路功能的重要組成部分。而這一切的核心是 5G。借助 5G，我們擁有的技術比前幾代技術強大 10 倍，實際上具有徹底改變社會的潛力。

While the previous generation of mobile technology digitalize the consumer and gave rise to the app economy, it was based on best effort connectivity. However, best effort connectivity is no longer good enough. Rapidly digitalizing enterprises need more than consumers. They need predictable and reliable connectivity with predetermined SLAs.

雖然上一代行動技術使消費者數位化並催生了應用經濟，但它是基於盡力而為的連結。然而，盡力而為的連結已經不夠好。快速數位化的企業需要的不僅是消費者。他們需要具有預定 SLA 的可預測且可靠的連接。

And 5G was actually designed to do justice with advanced capabilities such as speed, ultra-low latency and the ability to offer differentiated quality of service. 5G is a critical tool for transforming industries and consumers. To seize on this potential, we must redefine how telecom industry delivers and captures value.

5G 實際上旨在利用速度、超低延遲和提供差異化服務品質等先進功能來實現正義。 5G 是改變產業和消費者的關鍵工具。為了抓住這一潛力，我們必須重新定義電信業如何交付和獲取價值。

A few years back, we tested speed on demand with a push of a button and saw very strong interest from application developers. But we also realized, to commercialize this, it would require all developers to individually contract with operators around the world, and that was something that simply is not doable if we want to commercialize [it].

幾年前，我們透過按一下按鈕測試了按需速度，並看到應用程式開發人員非常感興趣。但我們也意​​識到，要將其商業化，需要所有開發商單獨與世界各地的運營商簽訂合同，而如果我們想要將其商業化，這是根本不可行的。

What was needed was instead an easy way to expose these advanced network capabilities, in this case speed on demand, along with a strong developer community that actually can use the features to drive the next wave of innovation, and this is the underlying reason why we acquired Vonage.

相反，我們需要的是一種簡單的方法來公開這些先進的網路功能，在這種情況下是按需速度，以及一個強大的開發人員社區，實際上可以使用這些功能來推動下一波創新，這就是我們的根本原因收購了沃內奇。

Vonage actually provides us with both the platform technology, CPaaS, and the developer community of today 1.4 million developers. We need to make our vision a reality. Vonage is actually critical to our journey to build the platform business. We recently took an important step toward this strategy and launched a Global Network Platform, which combines the power of Vonage and network APIs, enabling mobile networks and applications to talk to each other. This platform makes it easy to expose, consume and pay for advanced network capabilities.

Vonage 實際上為我們提供了平台技術、CPaaS 以及當今 140 萬開發者的開發者社群。我們需要使我們的願景成為現實。 Vonage 實際上對我們建立平台業務的旅程至關重要。我們最近朝著這項策略邁出了重要一步，推出了全球網路平台，該平台結合了 Vonage 和網路 API 的強大功能，使行動網路和應用程式能夠相互溝通。該平台可以輕鬆地公開、使用和支付高級網路功能。

Last month, we announced a historic milestone in the network API journey together with Deutsche Telekom. So powered by the Global Network Platform, DT is able to offer a globally scalable one-stop shop for both communication APIs, such as voice, SMS, 2-factor authentication and enhance security as well as network APIs, location, device status and quality on demand. Through the Global Network Platform, we're creating a new market for exposing 5G capabilities, an opportunity that we believe is, or analysts estimate to be about $20 billion by 2028. And we aim to capture a sizable part of the market as we are the front runner today.

上個月，我們與德國電信一起宣布了網路 API 之旅的歷史性里程碑。在全球網路平台的支援下，DT 能夠為語音、簡訊、雙重認證等通訊 API 提供全球可擴展的一站式商店，並增強安全性以及網路 API、位置、設備狀態和品質一經請求。透過全球網路平台，我們正在創建一個展示 5G 功能的新市場，我們相信這是一個機會，分析師估計到 2028 年該市場價值約為 200 億美元。我們的目標是佔領相當大的市場份額。今天的領跑者。

We expect the first revenues from network APIs during 2023, although limited in scale. There is a change in the market now when we are discussing network APIs with all our customers today, and all of them see this as a major opportunity to monetize the network and the investments in 5G. With network as a platform, every contributor in the ecosystem adds value to the whole, basically creating a flywheel of exponential growth and innovation.

我們預計網路 API 的第一筆收入將在 2023 年實現，儘管規模有限。當我們今天與所有客戶討論網路 API 時，市場發生了變化，他們都認為這是透過網路和 5G 投資貨幣化的重大機會。透過網路作為平台，生態系統中的每個貢獻者都可以為整體增加價值，基本上創造了一個指數增長和創新的飛輪。

It starts with the networks APIs that allow developers and enterprises to create enhanced services. These solutions, combined with performance-based business models, offer CSPs new ways to monetize their network. This attracts more CSPs to join the platform, which fuels network enhancements in order to meet growing demand for more advanced capabilities, and in turn, supports demand for our core business in mobile networks.

它從網路 API 開始，允許開發人員和企業創建增強的服務。這些解決方案與基於效能的業務模型相結合，為通訊服務提供者提供了透過網路獲利的新方法。這吸引了更多的通訊服務供應商加入該平台，從而推動網路增強，以滿足對更先進功能不斷增長的需求，進而支持我們在行動網路中的核心業務的需求。

We also start to see the interest from the developer community increasing as a function of network APIs, further reinforcing the flywheel. Wireless networks are truly transformative with its flexibility, broad and global availability and cost efficiency. We believe that by exposing them in an easy, scalable way, developers and businesses worldwide can use and build meaningful applications, making wireless networks the center of Enterprise digitalization and transformation.

我們也開始看到開發者社群對網路 API 的興趣不斷增加，進一步強化了飛輪。無線網路以其靈活性、廣泛的全球可用性和成本效益而具有真正的變革性。我們相信，透過以簡單、可擴展的方式公開它們，世界各地的開發人員和企業都可以使用和建立有意義的應用程序，使無線網路成為企業數位化和轉型的中心。

What excites me is that this is just the beginning of an extraordinary opportunity for our industry. This will truly transform the telecom industry. This is an entirely new opportunity that we're creating and developing together with leading CSPs. The winners will be the ones who scale their platform first. The time is now to seize on this opportunity, and we are very excited about our position.

令我興奮的是，這只是我們產業非凡機會的開始。這將真正改變電信業。這是我們與領先的 CSP 共同創造和開發的全新機會。獲勝者將是那些首先擴展其平台的人。現在是抓住這個機會的時候了，我們對我們的地位感到非常興奮。

But now over to Carl for a review of the numbers for Q3.

現在請卡爾回顧一下第三季的數據。

Thank you, Borje, and a very good morning to everyone. Thanks for joining us here. So, well, as you saw already last week, our Q3 results are in line with the guidance we issued back in the Q2 report. But I want to address some of the key items around the financials in the quarter.

謝謝你，Borje，祝大家早安。感謝您加入我們這裡。因此，正如您上週已經看到的那樣，我們第三季的業績與我們在第二季報告中發布的指導一致。但我想談談本季財務狀況的一些關鍵問題。

Before commenting on the underlying results, I just want to refer again to the impairment related to Vonage goodwill that we announced also last week. And just to add to what Borje already mentioned, this impairment of SEK 31.9 billion corresponds to 50% of the total amount of goodwill and other intangible assets attributed to Vonage. And the total goodwill in the group now post this impairment amounts to SEK 56.7 billion. And I can also mention that we have done a rigorous impairment testing of all of that, and that did not indicate any other impairment needs other than Vonage.

在評論基本結果之前，我只想再次提及我們上週宣布的與 Vonage 商譽相關的減損。 Borje 已經提過，319 億瑞典克朗的減損相當於 Vonage 商譽和其他無形資產總額的 50%。扣除此減損後，該集團的商譽總額目前達到 567 億瑞典克朗。我還可以提到，我們已經對所有這些進行了嚴格的減損測試，並且沒有表明除 Vonage 之外的任何其他減損需求。

Now, turning to the underlying business results. And first of all, if we have a look at the market and our top line then, I would say, much of the market development, the financial development we saw in the first and the second quarter continued into the third quarter. And as Borje outlined before, the telecom market outlook remains uncertain, but is expected to recover to more normalized levels over time.

現在，轉向基本的業務成果。首先，如果我們看市場和我們的營收，那麼我想說，我們在第一季和第二季看到的大部分市場發展和金融發展一直持續到第三季。正如 Borje 之前概述的那樣，電信市場前景仍然不確定，但預計隨著時間的推移將恢復到更正常化的水平。

And we base this on the fundamentals. I mean, the operators need to continue to invest to manage data traffic growth, costs, energy usage, network quality for their customer experience. And -- but what we see now the sales mix shift in the networks, particularly that we have discussed many times where sales decrease in North America and increase in India with large rollout projects. That continued in a similar manner in the third quarter. And I would say, we have worked a lot on our resiliency to limit the sensitivity to geographical mix changes. But of course, we see an impact on group numbers from this mix change, both on sales, gross margin, EBITA and cash flow.

我們以此為基礎。我的意思是，營運商需要繼續投資來管理數據流量成長、成本、能源使用、網路質量，以獲得客戶體驗。而且，我們現在看到網路中銷售組合的變化，特別是我們已經多次討論過，隨著大型專案的推出，北美的銷售量下降，而印度的銷售量增加。第三季的情況也以類似的方式繼續。我想說，我們在彈性方面做了很多工作，以限制對地理組合變化的敏感度。當然，我們看到這種組合變化對集團績效產生了影響，包括銷售、毛利率、息稅折舊攤提前利潤 (EBITA) 和現金流。

So on top line -- and group organic sales declined by 10%, and I would say, primarily driven by a 60% drop in North America in the Networks business, where we continue to see operators adjust inventory, we've talked about this many times, but also slower deployment pace.

因此，在營收方面，集團有機銷售額下降了 10%，我想說，這主要是由於北美網路業務下降 ​​60%，我們繼續看到營運商調整庫存，我們已經討論過這一點很多時候，而且部署速度也較慢。

I think it's important though to note that Q3 last year in 2022 was an absolute record quarter in North America with very large volumes of radio shipped and deployed. So that year-over-year comparison is very tough. But nevertheless, a 60% drop.

但我認為值得注意的是，2022 年第三季在北美絕對是創紀錄的季度，無線電設備的出貨和部署量非常大。因此，同比比較非常困難。但儘管如此，還是下降了 60%。

The drop then in North America was partly offset by continued rollout in India, which continued at full speed, incredible speed and our sales quadrupled actually year-over-year to almost SEK 10 billion in the quarter. And we are talking here about large rollout projects, and therefore, working capital builds up, and that's quite significant. We'll come back to that in a minute.

當時北美市場的下滑被印度的持續推出所部分抵消，印度市場繼續以令人難以置信的速度全速推出，本季度我們的銷售額實際上同比翻了兩番，達到近 100 億瑞典克朗。我們在這裡談論的是大型推出項目，因此，營運資金的累積非常重要。我們稍後會再回到這個話題。

We also saw that some front-runner customers on 5G resumed investments. This is a bit of a second wave of 5G investments. It's encouraging, but I would say it's too early to see this as a trend, but nevertheless, a positive sign.

我們也看到一些5G領先的客戶恢復了投資。這有點像第二波 5G 投資。這是令人鼓舞的，但我想說，現在將其視為一種趨勢還為時過早，但無論如何，這是一個積極的跡象。

We closed another IPR licensing agreement in the quarter. That's been announced earlier that positions us well to land additional agreements with previously unlicensed vendors and IPR now net sales landed at SEK 2.8 billion in the quarter, and we are on track to reach the levels that we have discussed before for the longer term. So that was top line.

我們在本季達成了另一項知識產權授權協議。早些時候宣布的這一點使我們能夠很好地與以前未經許可的供應商達成更多協議，並且IPR 目前本季度的淨銷售額達到28 億瑞典克朗，而且我們有望達到我們之前討論過的長期水平。這是最重要的。

Secondly, gross margin then, we came in at 39.2%, excluding restructuring. Networks, I want to highlight again, which achieved a 39.9% gross margin, which was very much in the upper part of the range that we had guided for, 38% to 40%. And of course, it, again, is the market mix that we talk about, that continue to impact the gross margin in Networks.

其次，毛利率為 39.2%，不包括重組。我想再次強調的是，網路業務實現了 39.9% 的毛利率，這在我們指導的範圍（38% 至 40%）的上部。當然，我們所談論的市場組合繼續影響網路的毛利率。

But however -- and I think this is important, actually. Achieving 39.9% gross margin is a strong proof point because it demonstrates the resiliency of our company. It's a sign of how -- the business transformation that we've been on to over the years, now has made us less sensitive to these swings between geographies.

但是，實際上，我認為這很重要。達到39.9%的毛利率是一個強有力的證明，因為它顯示了我們公司的韌性。這表明我們多年來進行的業務轉型使我們對地域之間的波動不再那麼敏感。

Third point regarding EBITA margin. We exceeded the previously mentioned expectations due to early positive effects of the cost-out ambitions. So for the group, we came in at 7.3%. That's a decline, of course, versus last year's 11.3%, again, driven by the gross income in Networks.

第三點關於 EBITA 利潤率。由於成本削減雄心的早期積極影響，我們超出了前面提到的預期。因此，對於該群體，我們的得分為 7.3%。當然，與去年的 11.3% 相比，這一數字有所下降，這也是由網路總收入推動的。

Cloud Software and Services delivered actually well in the quarter. EBITA was SEK 0.4 billion. And here we continue to execute on the turnaround strategy that we launched actually at the CMD last year. We're talking about strict commercial discipline, improved software sales, accelerated service delivery automation as some of the key pillars there.

本季雲端軟體和服務的交付實際上表現良好。 EBITA 為 4 億瑞典克朗。在這裡，我們繼續執行去年在 CMD 上實際推出的轉虧為盈策略。我們談論的是嚴格的商業紀律、改善的軟體銷售、加速的服務交付自動化，這些都是其中一些關鍵的支柱。

But given the nature of the Cloud Software and Service business, results will fluctuate between individual quarters. So to assess how this business performs over time, my recommendation is to look more at the 4-quarter rolling basis. And if you do that, you will see a positive EBITA number. You find all those numbers in the back end of the report. And you can compare this positive number with the 4 quarters, 1 year earlier where we had an EBITA loss of over SEK 1 billion. So we are clearly on track, moving in the right direction.

但考慮到雲端軟體和服務業務的性質，各季度的業績都會有所波動。因此，為了評估該業務隨著時間的推移表現如何，我的建議是更多地關注第四季度的滾動基礎。如果您這樣做，您將看到正的 EBITA 數字。您可以在報告的後端找到所有這些數字。您可以將這個正數與一年前的 4 個季度進行比較，當時我們的 EBITA 損失超過 10 億瑞典克朗。因此，我們顯然已經步入正軌，正在朝著正確的方向前進。

I would say, as you know, we have discussed a breakeven target for -- or at least breakeven for full year 2023. We'll come back to guidance a bit more later, but this quarter is, of course, a good stepping stone towards that ambition as well.

我想說，如您所知，我們已經討論了2023 年全年的盈虧平衡目標，或者至少是全年的盈虧平衡目標。我們稍後會再討論指導意見，但本季度當然是一個很好的墊腳石也朝著這個雄心壯志。

On the Enterprise side, we are impacted by a weaker market, such as macroeconomic headwinds, just like other participants in this ecosystem. But it's encouraging, though, to see that the global communications platform -- And as you will remember, that's where Vonage resides, delivered a positive EBITA also in the third quarter.

在企業方面，就像這個生態系統的其他參與者一樣，我們受到市場疲軟的影響，例如宏觀經濟逆風。但令人鼓舞的是，全球通訊平台——正如您所記得的，Vonage 所在的平台——在第三季也實現了正的 EBITA。

Fourth point, free cash flow before M&A came in at SEK 0.5 billion negative. And this we have also explained many times that this is really a result of this same business mix shift, which includes big rollout projects with a longer order to cash cycle.

第四點，併購前的自由現金流為負 5 億瑞典克朗。我們也多次解釋過，這實際上是同一業務組合轉變的結果，其中包括訂單到現金週期較長的大型推出項目。

And maybe [I] [which] explain [and] to expand a little bit more on this. In North America and some of the other early markets, customers largely manage the installment of equipment themselves. So payment terms are mainly related then to timing of delivery, hardware and software rather than completion of sites and installment of equipment.

也許[我][其中]解釋了[並且]對此進行了更多擴展。在北美和其他一些早期市場，客戶主要自行管理設備的安裝。因此，付款條件主要與交貨時間、硬體和軟體有關，而不是與場地完工和設備安裝有關。

But most of the large rollout projects, on the other hand, like in India, contracts are rather project-based, meaning that we have been assigned to build and install large-scale networks. And that leads, of course, to higher working capital in relation to sales volumes. But we expect the situation to taper off next year as the pace of these large rollouts will decrease. And when that happens, we expect to -- working capital to reduce and then gradually, over time, we will and should return to our long-term free cash flow target, as you know, 9% to 12% of net sales.

但另一方面，大多數大型部署專案（例如在印度）的合約都是基於專案的，這意味著我們被指派建造和安裝大型網路。當然，這會帶來與銷售量相關的更高的營運資金。但我們預計明年這種情況將逐漸減弱，因為這些大規模部署的步伐將會放緩。當這種情況發生時，我們預計營運資金會減少，然後隨著時間的推移，我們將並且應該逐漸恢復到我們的長期自由現金流目標，如你所知，淨銷售額的9% 至12% 。

Finally, as my fifth point on this slide, I wanted to highlight that we deliver on the cost-out efforts. Year-to-date, we have achieved run rate savings of SEK 10.5 billion, of which SEK 1.9 billion has impacted the P&L in the third quarter. It's about SEK 1.2 billion in cost of sales, SEK 0.7 billion in OpEx.

最後，作為這張投影片上的第五點，我想強調我們在成本支出方面所做的努力。年初至今，我們已實現營運率節省 105 億瑞典克朗，其中 19 億瑞典克朗影響了第三季的損益。銷售成本約 12 億瑞典克朗，營運支出約 7 億瑞典克朗。

The savings are primarily visible in the mobile networks business, less in Enterprise, because in Enterprise, we continue to increase investments for value creation in that business, both when it comes to the product, meaning competitiveness, but also go-to-market. We booked provisions for restructuring so far in the year amounting to SEK 5 billion, of which SEK 0.9 billion in Q3, and that's all in line with the cost-out plans.

節省的成本主要體現在行動網路業務中，而在企業業務中則較少，因為在企業業務中，我們繼續增加對該業務價值創造的投資，無論是在產品方面（意味著競爭力），還是在進入市場方面。今年到目前為止，我們已計入 50 億瑞典克朗的重組撥備，其中第三季為 9 億瑞典克朗，這一切都符合成本支出計畫。

So now with this track record, we're slightly ahead of our internal plans for cost-out, and as such, we have raised the ambition now by SEK 1 billion to SEK 12 billion of run rate savings until the end of the year, and we will continue to take additional and decisive cost action -- cost-out action as needed over time.

因此，現在憑藉這一業績記錄，我們略超前於我們的內部成本削減計劃，因此，我們已將目標從現在的 10 億瑞典克朗提高到今年年底運行率節省的 120 億瑞典克朗，我們將繼續採取額外的、果斷的成本行動—隨著時間的推移，根據需要採取成本削減行動。

So we can move to the outlook for Q4. We are guiding basically for 4 key parameters. We expect gross margin in Networks to land within the range of 39% to 41% in Q4, so up from the guidance we had for Q3. Top line seasonality between Q3 and Q4 in Networks will be somewhat less than normal. And this is mainly actually due to a specific factor, and that's the fact that India is expected to be sequentially flat Q3 to Q4.

因此，我們可以展望第四季的前景。我們基本上指導 4 個關鍵參數。我們預計第四季度網路業務的毛利率將在 39% 至 41% 之間，高於我們對第三季的指引。網路領域第三季和第四季之間的營收季節性將略低於正常水準。這實際上主要是由於一個特定因素造成的，那就是印度預計第三季至第四季將連續持平。

In Cloud Software and Services, EBITA is expected to reach at least breakeven for the full year, as we have said before, but with a lower sales top line seasonality than normal between Q3 and Q4. And again, important here to know that given the characteristics of this business, we don't expect a linear result development quarter after quarter. Results will vary between quarters depending on software deliveries, project acceptance and so on.

正如我們之前所說，在雲端軟體和服務方面，預計全年 EBITA 至少將達到盈虧平衡，但第三季和第四季的銷售收入季節性低於正常水平。同樣，重要的是要知道，鑑於該業務的特點，我們預計不會逐季出現線性結果發展。每個季度的結果都會有所不同，具體取決於軟體交付、專案驗收等。

And then looking at group EBITA margin for fourth quarter, we expect to reach around 10%. We see similar market trends from Q3 continuing in Q4, but we will see increased support from the cost-out program. And here on the slide, you see a few other planning assumptions related to OpEx, amortization and restructuring. But as usual, please refer to the full -- to the report for the full set of planning assumptions.

然後看看第四季度的集團 EBITA 利潤率，我們預計將達到 10% 左右。我們看到與第三季度類似的市場趨勢在第四季度繼續存在，但我們將看到成本支出計劃的支持增加。在投影片上，您可以看到一些與營運支出、攤銷和重組相關的其他規劃假設。但與往常一樣，請參閱完整的報告以了解全套規劃假設。

So with that, thank you, and I would like to hand back the word to Borje.

所以，謝謝你，我想把這個字交還給博爾傑。

Okay. Thank you, Carl. So while near-term dynamics are uncertain, our long-term confidence remain undiminished. In the current environment, we focus on what's within our control and executing on our strategy to extend our leadership in mobile networks, grow our Enterprise business and drive a lasting cultural transformation.

好的。謝謝你，卡爾。因此，儘管近期動態存在不確定性，但我們的長期信心並未減弱。在當前環境下，我們專注於我們控制範圍內的事情並執行我們的策略，以擴大我們在行動網路領域的領導地位，發展我們的企業業務並推動持久的文化轉型。

As we look ahead, we see that mobile networks investments intensity is on the lower end as our customers are cautious with investments. And this gives us good confidence that recovery will come. Until then, we will continue to take actions that position Ericsson in the best way to create value, which with the market recovery, of course, will create good operating leverage.

展望未來，我們發現行動網路投資強度處於較低水平，因為我們的客戶對投資持謹慎態度。這讓我們對復甦的到來充滿信心。在此之前，我們將繼續採取行動，使愛立信處於創造價值的最佳方式，當然，隨著市場的復甦，這將創造良好的營運槓桿。

I'm very confident in our team and the work they do every day. So our goal is to make Ericsson a more profitable company, returning to our cash flow target and capturing the next major wave of network innovation with a substantial platform business.

我對我們的團隊和他們每天所做的工作非常有信心。因此，我們的目標是讓愛立信成為一家盈利能力更強的公司，回歸我們的現金流目標，並透過大量的平台業務抓住下一波網路創新的大浪潮。

With that, I think it's time for some Q&A, Peter.

說到這裡，我想是時候進行一些問答了，彼得。

That's correct, Borje. So we will now then start the Q&A session.

沒錯，博爾傑。那我們現在開始問答環節。

(Operator Instructions) So let's look at the queue here. I think I have the first question from Aleksander Peterc at Societe Generale.

（操作員指令）那麼讓我們看看這裡的隊列。我想第一個問題是法國興業銀行的亞歷山大‧彼得克（Aleksander Peterc）提出的。

The first one will be just in broader terms. I know you don't guide on '24 now that we no longer have this 15% EBITA margin target. But could you give us a sense of whether you think Networks gross margins were -- [plateau] around 40% that you hold in the third quarter and also into the fourth quarter despite the adverse development in the U.S. market? So would you be able to hold us into next year or maybe improve it given the cost actions you're taking?

第一個是更廣泛的術語。我知道現在我們不再有 15% 的 EBITA 利潤率目標，因此您不會對 24 年進行指導。但您能否告訴我們，儘管美國市場發展不利，但您認為網路業務的毛利率在第三季和第四季是否保持在 40% 左右[穩定]？那麼考慮到您正在採取的成本行動，您能否讓我們推遲到明年，或者是否可以改進它？

And then just a very quick follow-up on India. Is that now leveling off at high levels and may roll off into declines next year? Or do you see further expansion there?

然後是對印度的快速跟進。現在是否已在高位企穩並可能在明年下滑？或者您認為那裡會進一步擴張嗎？

If Carl starts?

如果卡爾開始呢？

Yes, I start. Yes, I think what we say here in the report is really that the tides will turn. The market mix is going to recover at some point. The timing is unclear. But if you look at the lower forecast, for example, North America is -- would grow by 15% next year. And India, to -- (inaudible) now your last question, India will taper off, that's quite clear from this record year in 2022.

是的，我開始。是的，我認為我們在報告中所說的確實是潮流將會逆轉。市場組合將在某個時候恢復。時間尚不清楚。但如果你看一下較低的預測，例如，北美明年將成長 15%。印度，（聽不清楚）現在你的最後一個問題，印度將逐漸減少，從 2022 年這個創紀錄的年份來看，這一點非常明顯。

So I think that could support our gross margin development in Networks. Combined with the other thing that you also mentioned yourself, the cost-out, which we have seen a part of the effect so far in the P&L. But of course, as we reach the end of the year, we will have completed all of that SEK 12 billion cost reduction, and that will play out also in cost-out sales. So those are some of the factors that will support going forward.

所以我認為這可以支持我們網路毛利率的發展。結合您自己也提到的另一件事，即成本支出，到目前為止，我們已經在損益表中看到了部分影響。當然，到今年年底，我們將完成全部 120 億瑞典克朗的成本削減，這也將反映在成本銷售中。這些是支持未來發展的一些因素。

The next question will come from the line of -- let's see here. I think it's Joachim Gunell at DNB.

下一個問題將來自——讓我們看看這裡。我認為是 DNB 的 Joachim Gunell。

So 2 questions from my side, starting off a bit where Andrew asked. Based on the positive -- your customer discussions here, but of course, low visibility, can you just comment on, to what extent you have very conservatism into your view of, call it 2022 -- 2024 market recovery other than walking away from the margin target?

我這邊有兩個問題，從安德魯問的地方開始。基於積極的一面——您的客戶在這裡進行的討論，但是當然，知名度較低，您能否評論一下，您的觀點在多大程度上非常保守，稱之為2022 年- 2024 年市場復甦，而不是放棄保證金目標？

Borje, did you want to start this one?

Borje，你想開始這個嗎？

I can start. I would say -- I think what we like to do is basically to say that there will be a recovery in the market. It's going to happen. Timing is unknown. And given that, we think it's just prudent to plan for the current market conditions to prevail. So that allows us to take the right actions on the cost side, the way we run the company basically for operational efficiency.

我可以開始了。我想說——我認為我們想做的基本上是說市場將會復甦。這將會發生。時間未知。有鑑於此，我們認為針對當前市場狀況制定計畫是謹慎的做法。因此，這使我們能夠在成本方面採取正確的行動，這是我們經營公司的方式，基本上是為了提高營運效率。

And when we set ourselves up that way, so when the market recovery comes, we get the operating leverage. So we're kind of planning more cautiously in that sense, but rather saying when the recovery comes, let's talk about it at that point in time.

當我們以這種方式設定自己時，當市場復甦到來時，我們可以獲得營運槓桿。因此，從這個意義上說，我們的計劃更加謹慎，而是說，當復甦到來時，讓我們在那個時間點討論它。

And then one question for Carl. What in particular does the additional SEK 1 billion in cost savings pertain to? And can you also comment a bit on the timing of identifying this at this stage?

然後問卡爾一個問題。額外節省的 10 億瑞典克朗具體涉及哪些方面？您能否評論一下現階段確定這一點的時機？

Sure, Joachim. No, I would say this is also a learning from the last time around when we had a big cost-out effort, that once you start this machinery, you find more efficiencies, more possibilities to take out structural cost. That has happened also here, because every manager in the company is working on this since several quarters.

當然，約阿希姆。不，我想說，這也是我們從上次進行大量成本削減工作中學到的教訓，一旦你啟動這台機器，你就會發現更高的效率，更多的可能性來降低結構成本。這裡也發生了這種情況，因為公司的每位經理幾個季度以來都在努力解決這個問題。

We now see when we sum up the plans that exist that actually we will beat, well, first at SEK 9 billion that we had initially communicated and then up to SEK 11 billion, and we see that we can beat that as well and deliver SEK 12 billion of savings. So it's not about singling out a specific area [and] many contributing factors for us.

我們現在看到，當我們總結現有的計劃時，實際上我們將首先以我們最初溝通的90 億瑞典克朗擊敗，然後達到110 億瑞典克朗，我們看到我們也可以擊敗這一目標並交付瑞典克朗節省120億。因此，這並不是要為我們挑選出一個特定領域[和]許多影響因素。

And it's been a great momentum actually. As I said, we are slightly ahead of our internal planning as well. SEK 10.5 billion so far executed on out of the SEK 12 billion. So we clearly see the path to SEK 12 billion as well, and which we'll see the impact in the P&L more and more as we continue.

實際上這是一個巨大的動力。正如我所說，我們的內部規劃也稍微提早了一些。 120 億瑞典克朗中的 105 億瑞典克朗迄今已執行。因此，我們也清楚地看到了通往 120 億瑞典克朗的道路，隨著我們的繼續，我們將越來越多地看到其對損益表的影響。

So we'll move further to the next question, and I have the next question from the line of Francois Bouvignies at UBS.

因此，我們將進一步討論下一個問題，下一個問題是由瑞銀集團的 Francois Bouvignies 提出的。

So I have 2 quick questions. The first one is on -- more high level, but if we look at the current environment, especially in North America, quite extraordinary correction. I mean, with your sales back to 2018 level and with significant growth decline. And given the level of macro uncertainty and uncertainty around the recovery, how do you see the pricing evolving going forward? I mean, do you see any pressure from the operators given the challenges they are facing? So it would be very interesting to know your -- the pricing dynamic here and if you see any pressure?

我有兩個簡單的問題。第一個是更高的水平，但如果我們看看當前的環境，特別是在北美，這是相當非同尋常的調整。我的意思是，你們的銷售額回到 2018 年的水平，但成長顯著下降。考慮到宏觀不確定性和復甦的不確定性，您如何看待未來定價的演變？我的意思是，考慮到運營商面臨的挑戰，您是否看到他們面臨任何壓力？因此，了解您的定價動態以及您是否看到任何壓力將是非常有趣的？

And maybe from a very high level, if we look at the past -- last 10 years, and you say -- in your past 2 decades, you said that the mobile network market has been flattish. And your top line is reflecting this dynamic, and yet level of investment remains very high. When you look at your R&D, SG&A, I mean, R&D is 18% of your sales, SG&A, double-digit percentage as well in the Network at least. So I'm just wondering, is there any thought process that maybe you can make it structurally much more efficient this investment related to the return you get? And you see that you have a couple of cost-saving programs and it's not new. We have been doing that for a few years now. But can you go a bit deeper maybe internally in terms of discussion on the level of investment compared to what you return in terms of revenues? In other words, managing the business more for margins or cash flow, if you like, rather than for top line growth. Is that makes sense?

也許從一個非常高的層面來看，如果我們回顧過去——過去10年，你說——過去20年，你說行動網路市場一直表現平平。您的收入反映了這種動態，但投資水平仍然很高。當你看看你的研發、SG&A 時，我的意思是，研發佔你的銷售額、SG&A 的 18%，至少在網路中也是兩位數的百分比。所以我只是想知道，是否有任何思考過程可以使這項投資在結構上更加高效，並與您獲得的回報相關？您會看到，您有一些節省成本的計劃，而且這並不是什麼新鮮事。我們這樣做已經有幾年了。但是，您能否在內部就投資水準與收入回報進行更深入的討論？換句話說，如果你願意的話，管理業務更多的是為了利潤或現金流，而不是為了營收成長。這樣有道理嗎？

Should we start with Borje?

我們應該從 Borje 開始嗎？

And it's a highly relevant question you're asking. This is one of the areas we're looking at. We do believe -- and not focusing on the North American market here, but we actually face competitors in all other markets, or most other markets that actually where we will be evaluated based on technology leadership, on what type of solutions we provide.

這是你問的一個高度相關的問題。這是我們正在關注的領域之一。我們確實相信——並不是專注於北美市場，但我們實際上面臨著所有其他市場或大多數其他市場的競爭對手，這些市場實際上將根據我們提供的技術領先性和解決方案類型來評估我們。

And therefore, we need to provide leading-edge solutions so that drives a bit of the R&D intensity in the industry, which then is very high. Having said that, there are areas where we can leverage much more, or improve the R&D efficiency in many ways. And one of the things we are working on is actually to get a more efficient R&D.

因此，我們需要提供領先的解決方案，從而推動產業的研發強度，那麼這個強度是非常高的。話雖如此，在某些領域我們可以發揮更多作用，或透過多種方式提高研發效率。我們正在做的事情之一實際上是提高研發效率。

We've been -- take, for example, BCSS, where we have gone from almost a hardware-centric model into a software model. And we see now that we can improve the software development efficiency, and we are working on that. And the same thing on the [Benu] side.

以 BCSS 為例，我們已經從幾乎以硬體為中心的模型轉變為軟體模型。我們現在看到我們可以提高軟體開發效率，並且我們正在努力。 [貝努]方面也是如此。

So I do think there are opportunities, but I would also say that, given that we compete for global scale with vendors that are investing very heavily, we need to match that. So it's really a bit of a tricky question. If you would only have a market where technology would not matter, you could actually slow down a bit of the investments, but that would make us uncompetitive in most parts of the world.

因此，我確實認為存在機會，但我也想說，鑑於我們正在與投入大量資金的供應商爭奪全球規模，我們需要與之匹配。所以這確實是一個有點棘手的問題。如果你只擁有一個技術無關緊要的市場，你實際上可以放慢一些投資，但這將使我們在世界大部分地區失去競爭力。

So I do think we should expect R&D intensity to be high, but we need to be more efficient in the way we develop our solutions. And that is -- you actually see part of the cost savings now come out of a bit of a reduction in R&D as well, and you will see that continue.

因此，我確實認為我們應該預期研發強度很高，但我們需要更有效率地開發解決方案。也就是說，你現在實際上看到部分成本節省也來自於研發的一點減少，而且你會看到這種情況繼續下去。

Maybe, Borje, you want to take the first question about the pricing discussions with customers as well, if you?

Borje，也許您也想回答與客戶進行定價討論的第一個問題，如果您願意的話？

Yes, it is -- I mean it's actually a global industry. So when we think about prices, it's set in competition with other vendors, and that's kind of where the market environment is. So that's why -- I would say it used to be very competitive. It continues to be very competitive.

是的，是的——我的意思是它實際上是一個全球性的行業。因此，當我們考慮價格時，它會與其他供應商競爭，這就是市場環境。所以這就是為什麼——我想說它曾經非常有競爭力。它仍然非常有競爭力。

We will now move to the next question, and we'll have the next question coming from Daniel Djurberg at Handelsbanken.

現在我們將討論下一個問題，下一個問題將由德國商業銀行的 Daniel Djurberg 提出。

And my question would be a little bit on the given CapEx constraints. I obviously understand it's tricky to forecast CSPs around spending in 2024. But if we see an improvement, or in the visibility, I should say, for example, Mobile World Congress or whatever, is it your ambition to return to guidance with regards to the ['24] adjusted EBITA range? Or is it -- should we forget about that also in a later stage?

我的問題是關於給定的資本支出限制。我顯然明白，預測2024 年CSP 的支出是很棘手的。但是，如果我們看到有所改善，或者可見度有所改善，我應該說，例如，世界移動大會或其他什麼，您是否有志於恢復有關CSP 的指導？ ['24] 調整後的 EBITA 範圍？或者是——我們應該在稍後階段忘記這一點嗎？

Do you want to start, Carl?

卡爾，你想開始嗎？

Daniel, I think it's fair to say that let's take that discussion when we see the change in market sentiment. Right now, I feel we need to be prudent and plan for the current conditions to prevail, because then we take the right operating decisions. So when that changes, let's see where we are.

丹尼爾，我認為可以公平地說，當我們看到市場情緒的變化時，我們就可以進行討論。現在，我覺得我們需要謹慎行事，並根據當前情況制定計劃，因為這樣我們才能做出正確的營運決策。因此，當情況發生變化時，讓我們看看我們處於什麼位置。

And I know that you don't want to speak on specific customers, but recent Mobile World Congress at Vegas, we heard from Verizon Executive Vice Presidents talking about that they have deployed 7,000 mobile sites with [vRAN] mainly with Samsung in last 1 month, but that they have started to deploy Ericsson vRAN right now. My question is, have you seen this kind of changes at the time that the project goes to someone else and then it's your turn back and forth, and should we expect to see an improvement coming from the U.S. given the statement from Verizon, for example?

我知道您不想談論特定客戶，但最近在維加斯舉行的世界移動大會上，我們聽到Verizon 執行副總裁談到他們在過去1 個月內主要與三星合作部署了7,000 個帶有[vRAN]的行動站點，但他們現在已經開始部署愛立信 vRAN。我的問題是，當專案交給其他人，然後輪到你來回時，你是否看到過這種變化？例如，考慮到 Verizon 的聲明，我們是否應該期望看到來自美國的改進？

We would never comment on specific customers. But the -- our investments, for example, into Cloud RAN has continued, and you'll see us launch or sign the MOUs here together with Telefonica, for example, to actually deploy Cloud RAN and Open RAN on an industrial scale. We believe networks in the future are going to be much more open and we're always better off leading that. And that's what we [invest] for. We see that to work with leading customers, including the U.S. operators as well. I don't want to go into specific customers because I think they ought to comment on that themselves.

我們絕不會評論特定客戶。但是，例如，我們對 Cloud RAN 的投資仍在繼續，您將看到我們與 Telefonica 一起在這裡啟動或簽署諒解備忘錄，以在工業規模上實際部署 Cloud RAN 和 Open RAN。我們相信未來的網路將更加開放，而我們在這方面的領先總是會更好。這就是我們[投資]的目的。我們希望與主要客戶（包括美國營運商）合作。我不想談論特定的客戶，因為我認為他們應該自己對此發表評論。

Yes, I understand. And just super quick to Carl, the extra SEK 1 billion cost savings, is that -- the cost for that included in the SEK 7 billion restructuring charges? Or is it -- will it come in 2024?

是的我明白。 Carl 很快就知道，額外節省的 10 億瑞典克朗成本是——包含在 70 億瑞典克朗重組費用中的成本嗎？或者它會在 2024 年到來嗎？

It's included. So we maintain the SEK 7 million -- SEK 7 billion restructuring charges as the full year number. So it's -- we have done SEK 5 billion so far, a bit more than coming in the second -- the fourth quarter, sorry. And with that, we will deliver the SEK 12 billion run rate saving.

它包括在內。因此，我們維持 700 萬瑞典克朗——70 億瑞典克朗的重組費用作為全年數字。所以，抱歉，到目前為止，我們已經完成了 50 億瑞典克朗，比第二季的收入多一點。這樣，我們將節省 120 億瑞典克朗的運行率。

So we will move further in the queue. And I have the next question coming from Erik Lindholm-Rojestal from SEB.

因此，我們將在隊列中繼續前進。下一個問題是來自 SEB 的 Erik Lindholm-Rojestal。

So starting on the guidance for Networks seasonality here in Q4. You mentioned that you see India flat sequentially. But can you talk a bit what this means for North America and what you assume there? And is there any other market sort of standing out into Q4? And I'll follow up with another question.

因此，從第四季度開始為網路季節性提供指導。您提到您認為印度連續持平。但您能談談這對北美意味著什麼以及您對北美的假設嗎？第四季是否還有其他市場表現突出？我將接著提出另一個問題。

I would say, overall, we see that the average seasonality is representative on markets excluding India where we have a flat development. And of course, given the size now, the magnitude of India, the proportion of Indian total sales, it matters for the full seasonality calculation or development, you could say. So all other markets, I would say, no specific guidance other than normal -- India flat.

我想說，總體而言，我們看到平均季節性在印度以外的市場上具有代表性，印度的發展持平。當然，考慮到現在的規模、印度的規模、印度總銷售額的比例，你可以說，這對於完整的季節性計算或發展很重要。因此，我想說，所有其他市場除了正常情況外沒有具體指引——印度持平。

And just a follow-up on that, I guess. I mean, I guess a key topic has been the inventory levels in the U.S. market. I mean, what are you seeing now in terms of inventory levels at the top telcos in the U.S. market? And do you see this inventory adjustments being done now in Q4? Is this still the case?

我想這只是一個後續行動。我的意思是，我想一個關鍵話題是美國市場的庫存水準。我的意思是，您現在看到美國市場頂級電信公司的庫存水準如何？您認為第四季正在進行庫存調整嗎？現在還是這樣嗎？

Yes. So we saw a continuation in the third quarter, but it's starting to flatten out and even more so in the fourth. It's basically done. On the part of inventory that matters that has the larger value, we are really flattening out hiring in the fourth quarter. So that's, of course, a helpful fact for us as well.

是的。所以我們在第三季看到了延續，但它開始趨於平緩，在第四季更是如此。基本上已經完成了。就價值較大的重要庫存而言，我們第四季的招募確實在趨於平緩。當然，這對我們來說也是一個有用的事實。

And we'll have the next question from Andreas Joelsson at Danske Bank.

下一個問題將由丹斯克銀行的 Andreas Joelsson 提出。

Just a question on reference that you made very -- in the beginning that you need a catalyst to see investments coming through from the operators over time. Just curious to understand if you are a little bit surprised by the 5G business models from the operators so far, because it hasn't really kicked off in terms of ARPU growth, et cetera? What do you see that they are missing from a 5G business model so far?

只是您提出的一個參考問題，一開始您需要一個催化劑來看到運營商隨著時間的推移進行的投資。只是想知道您是否對運營商迄今為止的 5G 商業模式感到有點驚訝，因為它在 ARPU 增長等方面尚未真正啟動？您認為到目前為止他們在 5G 商業模式中缺少什麼？

That's a great question. What we see so far with the 5G networks launched, it's kind of a little bit better mobile broadband. But to really get -- kind of deliver on the promise of 5G, we need to tap into new revenue pools. And that's where Enterprises come in and Enterprise digitalization.

這是一個很好的問題。到目前為止，我們看到 5G 網路的推出，是一種更好一點的行動寬頻。但要真正兌現 5G 的承諾，我們需要利用新的收入來源。這就是企業和企業數位化的用武之地。

So we need to basically -- and there is an opportunity, I would say, to leverage wireless for Enterprise digitalization just because of the way -- think about the flexibility of the wireless network, think about the global availability of the network, and actually, that it has a very high level of security as well. So you -- when you start to put that, we can actually digitalize so many more Enterprise processes using 5G. That is an area that naturally lends itself, or we should enter Enterprises with 5G.

因此，我們基本上需要——我想說，有一個機會利用無線技術實現企業數位化，只是因為這種方式——考慮無線網路的靈活性，考慮網路的全球可用性，並且實際上，它也具有非常高的安全等級。所以當你開始這麼說時，我們實際上可以使用 5G 將更多的企業流程數位化。這是一個自然適合的領域，或者我們應該用5G進入企業。

We see that, of course, on Enterprise networks or dedicated networks, for example. We see that to be a very early market, but that's happening. It's -- we're using wireless networks to digitalize enterprises. And we see that some large automotive OEMs, for example, are deploying them now on their sites to drive new type of automation. But we also see this as the major -- this is the kind of starting point for our Global Network Platform.

當然，我們在企業網路或專用網路上看到了這一點。我們認為這是一個非常早期的市場，但這種情況正在發生。我們正在使用無線網路來實現企業數位化。例如，我們看到一些大型汽車原始設備製造商現在正在其網站上部署它們以推動新型自動化。但我們也認為這是主要的——這是我們全球網路平台的起點。

So if we can create the network into a horizontal platform that can make the features of the network easy to expose, consume and pay for, we have actually created something for a developer to drive, and we start to see this. We're launching some new network APIs with great interest from the developer community.

因此，如果我們能夠將網路創建為水平平台，使網路的功能易於公開、使用和付費，那麼我們實際上已經為開發人員創建了一些可以驅動的東西，並且我們開始看到這一點。我們正在推出一些新的網路 API，引起了開發者社群的極大興趣。

And of course, we -- this is a market where we don't want to talk about it until we have launched basically, for competitive reasons, but we think it's actually a major opportunity to create this new type of revenue pool that the industry needs to drive more investments into the network.

當然，出於競爭原因，在我們基本上推出之前，我們不想談論這個市場，但我們認為這實際上是創建行業這種新型收入池的重大機會。需要推動更多的網路投資。

Otherwise, the network investments will just continue to be flat. If the service revenues for the operators are largely flat or very low growth, there is not going to be growth for network investments either. So we need to create this new type of monetization pool in order to drive investments.

否則，網路投資將繼續持平。如果營運商的服務收入基本上持平或成長非常低，那麼網路投資也不會成長。因此，我們需要創造這種新型的貨幣化池來推動投資。

Andreas, do you have a second question?

安德烈亞斯，你還有第二個問題嗎？

No, that's perfect.

不，那是完美的。

So we'll move further on. We have the next question from the line of Janardan Menon at Jefferies.

所以我們將繼續前進。我們有傑富瑞 (Jefferies) 的賈納丹梅農 (Janardan Menon) 提出的下一個問題。

I just want to follow up on the GNP business and Vonage. Can you give us some kind of an indication of timing when you will have developed the required number of 5G network APIs? Clearly, you have been on that process since the acquisition. Is that something that we can say by the end of 2024 you will have the required number? And by then, you would have signed up enough agreements, like the Deutsche Telekom agreement, with operators worldwide and with developers. And so we can -- at least, we can start seeing that revenue inflecting more sharply upwards. Is there some kind of a timing that you can give on when you expect that process to happen?

我只是想跟進GNP業務和Vonage。您能否向我們透露您何時開發出所需數量的 5G 網路 API？顯然，自收購以來您一直在參與此過程。我們可以說到 2024 年底您將擁有所需的數量嗎？到那時，您將與全球營運商和開發商簽署足夠的協議，例如德國電信協議。因此，我們可以——至少，我們可以開始看到收入急劇上升。當您期望該過程發生時，您是否可以給出某種時間安排？

And secondly, just on the India side, you're saying that the revenues are beginning to flatten out. You had said that the network rollout initial portion has lower margins because of -- and of course, higher cash intensity. Are we reaching the second phase of India from Q1 next year? And will that result in average India margins being higher in 2024 compared to 2023?

其次，就印度方面而言，你說收入開始趨於平緩。您曾說過，網路推出的初始部分的利潤率較低，因為——當然還有更高的現金強度。我們是否會從明年第一季開始進入印度的第二階段？這是否會導致 2024 年印度的平均利潤率高於 2023 年？

I'll take the GNP and you take the India question, Carl. So if you look at GNP, we actually started already in 2019 with customer trials of speed on demand. So this -- that was really the trigger point when we could see the customer interest. And we're thinking about the application developers here, both in the gaming side as well as in collaborative softwares. So there is -- there was a great interest. We saw that.

我將討論國民生產總值，你將討論印度問題，卡爾。因此，如果你看看 GNP，我們實際上已經在 2019 年開始進行客戶按需速度試驗。所以這確實是我們可以看到客戶興趣的觸發點。我們正在考慮這裡的應用程式開發人員，無論是遊戲方面還是協作軟體方面。所以人們對此很感興趣。我們看到了。

Of course, to launch quality of service APIs, you need some network investments. We need a network exposure layer, et cetera. So it takes some time to get there. There are some other simpler network APIs that still rely on the network, but that can be presented over a CPaaS. Those will be the first ones. We'll come back to tell you what we're launching. But we expect to see some early revenues this year, small in scale. We're talking tens of millions of kroner this year, but they will start to grow into next year.

當然，要啟動服務品質 API，您需要一些網路投資。我們需要一個網路暴露層等等。所以需要一些時間才能到達那裡。還有一些其他更簡單的網絡 API 仍然依賴網絡，但可以透過 CPaaS 呈現。這些將是第一批。我們會回來告訴您我們正在推出什麼。但我們預計今年會出現一些早期收入，但規模較小。我們今年談論的是數千萬克朗，但他們將在明年開始成長。

Really to be meaningful, I think the fair thing is to expect that during 2025 in reality, because it -- we really need to get not only several operators involved, we need to get the industry and the developers to start using the APIs as well for this to scale. And it's hard for them, or actually impossible for them to use it before we've got the operator community signed on to a similar type of solution.

真正有意義的是，我認為公平的事情是預計在 2025 年實際上，因為我們確實不僅需要讓幾個運營商參與，我們還需要讓行業和開發人員開始使用 API為了擴大規模。在我們讓營運商社群簽署類似類型的解決方案之前，他們很難，或者實際上不可能使用它。

We're not going to be alone with our GNP. There are going to be other platforms as well, but we are at least the front runner. So we should be able to run -- as long as we can run fast, we are going to be rather attractive to sign up with, but we'll face competition here as well. But I'm convinced we can outgrow where we are today. But don't expect this to be really meaningful until the '25 time frame.

我們不會獨自面對我們的國民生產毛額。還會有其他平台，但我們至少是領跑者。所以我們應該能夠跑——只要我們跑得快，我們簽約就會相當有吸引力，但我們也會在這裡面臨競爭。但我相信我們能夠超越今天的現狀。但不要指望這在 25 年時間框架之前真正有意義。

India question, Carl?

印度問題，卡爾？

Janardan, thanks for the India question. I'll take that. So, I mean, I won't comment on specific margin profiles and different customers for obvious reasons. But of course, it's our job to deliver customer value and make sure that we make decent margins out of that. And I think that has been the case already. Other big rollout projects, or the pace of rollout, I should say, will be coming down.

Janardan，謝謝你提出印度問題。我會接受的。所以，我的意思是，出於顯而易見的原因，我不會對特定的利潤狀況和不同的客戶發表評論。當然，我們的工作是提供客戶價值並確保我們從中獲得可觀的利潤。我認為情況已經如此。我應該說，其他大型推出項目或推出速度將會下降。

The more -- maybe more interesting fact is on the cash flow side because we tie up significant working capital because of the nature of this business with rollout. But that tide will turn as volumes come down. We will start to collect more and get a positive cash flow impact from that. So that we should see in 2024. Margin is an everyday job for us, of course, to make sure that we have the right margins, and that we will continue with.

更多——也許更有趣的事實是在現金流方面，因為由於這項業務的推出性質，我們佔用了大量的營運資金。但隨著銷量的下降，這種趨勢將會扭轉。我們將開始收集更多資金，並從中獲得正面的現金流影響。所以我們應該在 2024 年看到。當然，保證金是我們的日常工作，以確保我們擁有正確的利潤率，並且我們將繼續這樣做。

So we'll move further in the queue here, and we have the next question coming from the line of Sandeep Deshpande at JPMorgan.

因此，我們將在此隊列中繼續前進，下一個問題來自摩根大通的桑迪普·德什潘德 (Sandeep Deshpande)。

My question is on the margin going into '24. I mean, clearly, you seem to be seeing some positive impact from the restructuring in CSS and possibly in the Networks business itself. If you say India is potentially flattish into Q4 and then potentially rolling off in 2024, U.S. should increase as a percentage of business as well as your restructuring should kick in. So theoretically, we should be assuming that your net worth margin and your CSS margins should be improving in '24. Is this the correct contention?

我的問題是關於24年的邊緣。我的意思是，顯然，您似乎看到了 CSS 重組以及網路業務本身的重組帶來的一些積極影響。如果你說印度可能會在第四季度持平，然後可能在2024 年下滑，那麼美國的業務百分比應該會增加，而且你的重​​建也應該開始。因此，從理論上講，我們應該假設你的淨資產利潤率和CSS 利潤率24年應該會有所改善。這是正確的論點嗎？

And my second question is, are there any signs of any revival in demand in Europe? Europe has had very little 5G rollout. I mean, they have invested very little this year as well compared to where India has invested, which is about -- historically a much further behind market compared to Europe. So what are you sharing to the European customers at this point in regard to '24?

我的第二個問題是，歐洲的需求是否有任何復甦的跡象？歐洲的 5G 部署很少。我的意思是，與印度的投資相比，他們今年的投資也很少，從歷史上看，與歐洲相比，印度的投資遠遠落後於市場。那麼，關於“24”，您現在要向歐洲客戶分享什麼？

Borje, do you want to take the Europe and I take the first one afterwards, so?

Borje，你想先拿歐洲，然後我再拿第一個嗎？

Yes. I'll take -- you can take, you can start.

是的。我會接受──你可以接受，你可以開始。

I go. Okay. [Now], the factors that you point to, they are relevant. And as you see in the report, we are not guiding for specific margins beyond Q4, where we say 39% to 41% in the Networks segment on gross margin. But the factors that you point to, of course, are the positive ones that could support gross margin. We have the cost-out that will be fully executed by year-end on the current SEK 12 billion that we have communicated. We are talking also about the market mix recovery, which is needed for us to improve margins going forward. And to the extent that, that happens, that should support gross margins, of course.

我去。好的。 [現在]，你指出的因素是相關的。正如您在報告中看到的，我們沒有對第四季度之後的具體利潤率進行指導，我們稱網路部門的毛利率為 39% 至 41%。但你指出的因素當然是可以支持毛利率的正面因素。我們的成本支出將在年底前完全執行，目前我們已經溝通了 120 億瑞典克朗。我們還在談論市場組合的復甦，這是我們提高未來利潤率所必需的。當然，如果這種情況發生，這應該會支撐毛利率。

And I mean, again, we are fully committed to the 15% to 18% EBITA margin target for the long-term. And of course, we will work very hard in Ericsson to reach that as soon as possible. I mean, that's a key message as well. And we are dependent on this market mix to improve. At some point, it will come. So I just want to repeat that again. That is what will drive the margins upwards when that happens.

我的意思是，我們再次完全致力於 15% 至 18% 的長期 EBITA 利潤率目標。當然，我們將在愛立信努力工作，以盡快實現這一目標。我的意思是，這也是一個關鍵訊息。我們依賴這種市場組合的改善。總有一天，它會到來。所以我想再重複一次。當這種情況發生時，這將推動利潤率上升。

We'll tie into your question about the global rollout of 5G. It varies a bit by region, but in average, it's about one in 4 that's upgraded for mid-band -- 5G mid-band. And so it's really -- compared to previous generations, we're still relatively early in the cycle. Investments in Europe have been slower than that in average, depending -- it varies a bit by market.

我們將回答您有關 5G 全球部署的問題。各個地區的情況略有不同，但平均而言，大約有四分之一的人升級為中頻段（5G 中頻段）。所以，與前幾代相比，我們確實處於這個週期的相對早期。歐洲的投資速度低於平均水平，取決於市場的情況。

But overall, the rollout of 5G, especially mid-band, have been very slow, and much slower than India. India basically have nationwide 5G coverage now, or at least of the metropolitan areas. In a way, kind of just second to China today. Very strong, have also a nationwide 5G stand-alone network. So we are likely to start to see applications now coming out of India as well, leveraging the very strong digital infrastructure.

但總體而言，5G（尤其是中頻段）的推出非常緩慢，比印度慢得多。印度現在基本上已經實現了全國範圍內的5G覆蓋，或至少是大城市地區的5G覆蓋。在某種程度上，它的地位僅次於今天的中國。很強，也有覆蓋全國的5G獨立網路。因此，我們可能會開始看到印度也出現應用程序，利用非常強大的數位基礎設施。

Europe is not on that map today. We see very limited build-out as several of the European operators are under pressure. And you know that in the capital markets as well. So it's a challenge. I -- Personally I worry a bit about Europe's future competitiveness. Infrastructure tends to be something that drives a nation's long-term competitiveness. And without the digital infrastructure in Europe, it's going to be a bit of a challenge. So I do think that -- or I hope that we will start to see investments come up because it's going to be needed for future long-term competitiveness of our industry in Europe.

今天的歐洲不在這張地圖上。由於一些歐洲營運商面臨壓力，我們認為擴建非常有限。在資本市場上你也知道這一點。所以這是一個挑戰。我——就我個人而言，我有點擔心歐洲未來的競爭力。基礎建設往往是推動一個國家長期競爭力的因素。如果歐洲沒有數位基礎設施，這將是一個挑戰。所以我確實認為——或者我希望我們將開始看到投資的出現，因為這是我們行業在歐洲未來長期競爭力所必需的。

We are then moving to the last question of this call, and that question will come from -- I see here, Sebastien Sztabowicz from Kepler Cheuvreux.

然後我們將討論本次電話會議的最後一個問題，這個問題將來自——我在這裡看到，來自 Kepler Cheuvreux 的 Sebastien Sztabowicz。

One question on Vonage. You did this big write-off on Vonage because the business seems to be slowing down. Which part of Vonage business is really slowing down? And what kind of growth trajectory do you expect for the global communication platform segment for the next few years? Can you give us a little bit of indication there?

關於 Vonage 的一個問題。您對 Vonage 進行瞭如此大的沖銷，因為該業務似乎正在放緩。 Vonage 業務的哪一部分確實在放緩？您預計未來幾年全球通訊平台領域的成長軌跡如何？您能給我們一點指示嗎？

And the second one is linked to Cloud Software and Services, which has been growing nicely over the last 4 quarters. Do you see finally 5G core deployments picking up? Or is there any different reason for this business to start to grow? And what is the outlook for the next few years for Cloud Software and Services?

第二個與雲端軟體和服務相關，該軟體和服務在過去 4 個季度中成長良好。您認為 5G 核心部署最終會回升嗎？或者這個業務開始成長有什麼不同的原因嗎？雲端軟體和服務未來幾年的前景如何？

Borje?

博爾傑？

So if we look at -- start with Vonage, we see -- basically, it's a couple of reasons for the goodwill impairment that we took. There are, of course, a slowdown in the market that we've seen for -- kind of the demand trends have been softer, and we see much higher interest rates as well. When you put those 2 together, the impairment is the right thing to do, to take that. And by the way, it also led to -- a lot of the peers traded significantly lower in the market. So there's no doubt about that. And those trends have come down. We have so far grown in line or faster than competitors.

因此，如果我們看一下——從 Vonage 開始，我們會發現——基本上，這是我們採取商譽減損的幾個原因。當然，我們已經看到市場放緩——需求趨勢趨於疲軟，而且我們也看到利率大幅上升。當你把這兩者放在一起時，損害是正確的做法，並接受它。順便說一句，這也導致許多同業在市場上的交易價格大幅下跌。所以這是毫無疑問的。這些趨勢已經下降。到目前為止，我們的成長速度與競爭對手一致或更快。

But I would say it's fair to say that the market expectation is somewhat lower today than it was -- if you look a few years back. The growth trajectory on -- and we believe it's -- will be in line or slightly better than market going forward as well. But really, what we're investing for is not the core business in Vonage that we really did the impairment testing on. It is the Global Network Platform which will provide ample growth opportunities in the future and position Ericsson to be a completely different company in a few years' time.

但我想說的是，如果你回顧幾年前，現在的市場預期比以前要低一些，這是公平的。我們相信，未來的成長軌跡也將與市場一致或略好。但實際上，我們投資的並不是我們真正進行減損測試的 Vonage 核心業務。全球網路平台將在未來提供充足的成長機會，並使愛立信在幾年內成為一家完全不同的公司。

That's really the underlying strategy behind the Vonage acquisition. So in a way, the reason for taking the impairment relates to the core business, but that was not really our investment thesis when we acquired Vonage.

這確實是 Vonage 收購背後的基本策略。因此，在某種程度上，提列減損的原因與核心業務有關，但這並不是我們收購 Vonage 時的投資主題。

So that -- so our strategy stands firm on developing Global Network Platform. The attraction we have with customers is very strong today and the inbound interest we get from basically all operators are very exciting and I think positions us well for the future. It's up to us to deliver. It's up to us to execute on that, and that's where we're focusing on 100%.

因此，我們的策略堅定地致力於開發全球網路平台。如今，我們對客戶的吸引力非常強大，基本上所有營運商都對我們產生了濃厚的興趣，我認為我們在未來的發展中處於有利地位。由我們來交付。這取決於我們來執行，這就是我們 100% 關注的地方。

Missed your second question.

錯過了你的第二個問題。

On Cloud Software and Services, the growth expected, 5G core, not least.

在雲端軟體和服務方面，預計成長，5G 核心尤其重要。

Yes. I would say we're still early in the 5G core deployments. It really needs to be 5G stand-alone to be widely deployed. And that's so far -- call it, it's maybe some 40, 50 networks around the world, very few. So we're not seeing the big ramp until that happens. So I would not hang it on there. We've seen some good developments in other areas of the business that actually has started to grow, and that's encouraging as well. But I would say the 5G core, the future is ahead of us.

是的。我想說，我們仍處於 5G 核心部署的早期階段。確實需要5G獨立才能廣泛部署。到目前為止，全球大概有 40、50 個網絡，但數量很少。因此，在此之前我們不會看到大坡道。所以我不會把它掛在那裡。我們看到業務其他領域的一些良好發展實際上已經開始成長，這也令人鼓舞。但我想說的是，5G核心，未來就在眼前。

So that concludes today's call. So I thank you all for listening to this Q3 earnings call for -- in 2023. So I'm looking forward to the next call here in January. With that, have a great day. Goodbye.

今天的電話會議到此結束。因此，我感謝大家收聽 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。因此，我期待著 1 月的下一次電話會議。就這樣，祝你有美好的一天。再見。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。