Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson (ERIC) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the presentation of Ericsson's fourth quarter 2024 results.

大家好，歡迎參加愛立信2024年第四季業績發表會。

With me here in the studio today are Börje Ekholm, our President and CEO; and Lars Sandstrom, our Chief Financial Officer.

今天和我一起來到攝影棚的還有我們的總裁兼執行長 Börje Ekholm；以及我們的財務長 Lars Sandstrom。

As usual, we'll have a short presentation followed by Q&A.

像往常一樣，我們將進行簡短的演講，然後進行問答。

And in order to ask a question, you'll need to join the conference by phone.

為了提出問題，您需要透過電話加入會議。

Details can be found in today's earnings release and on the Investor Relations website.

詳細資訊請參閱今天的收益報告和投資者關係網站。

Please be advised that today's call is being recorded, and that today's presentation may include forward-looking statements.

請注意，今天的電話會議正在錄音，今天的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。

These statements are based on our current expectations and certain planning assumptions, which are subject to risks and uncertainties.

這些聲明是基於我們目前的預期和某些規劃假設，這些假設存在風險和不確定性。

The actual results may differ materially due to factors mentioned in today's press release and discussed in this conference call.

由於今天的新聞稿中提到以及本次電話會議中討論的因素，實際結果可能存在重大差異。

We encourage you to read about these risks and uncertainties in our earnings report as well as in our annual report.

我們鼓勵您在我們的收益報告和年度報告中了解這些風險和不確定性。

I'll now hand over the call to Börje and to Lars for their introductory comments.

我現在將電話交給 Börje 和 Lars，請他們發表介紹評論。

Well, thank you, Daniel, and welcome, everyone.

好吧，謝謝你，丹尼爾，歡迎大家。

And first of all, of course, thank you for joining us today.

首先，當然，感謝您今天的參與。

So we delivered a solid Q4 results, and we made good progress against our strategic priorities in the 2024 overall.

因此，我們取得了穩健的第四季度業績，並且在 2024 年整體戰略重點方面取得了良好進展。

Momentum around programmable networks and new ways to monetize them continue to build up.

可程式網路的發展動能及其貨幣化的新方式不斷增強。

I'd like to start by focusing my comments today really on two key areas.

今天我首先想重點談兩個關鍵領域。

First, the progress against our strategic initiatives and second, how we positioned the business to succeed across varying market conditions.

首先，我們的策略計劃取得了進展；其次，我們如何定位業務以在不同的市場條件下取得成功。

Beginning with our strategy that aims to build the network for the future through programmable networks and open API architectures.

從我們的策略開始，旨在透過可編程網路和開放 API 架構建立未來的網路。

This will enable our service provider customers to deliver differentiated performance and new applications and new cases to monetize.

這將使我們的服務提供者客戶能夠提供差異化的性能和新的應用和新的案例來實現盈利。

The contract, and you remember that, that we signed with AT&T last year really paved the way for our newest agreement with MasOrange, which we signed during the quarter.

您還記得嗎，我們去年與 AT&T 簽署的合約為我們在本季與 MasOrange 簽署的最新協議鋪平了道路。

I would say our agreement with MasOrange was really the first open programmable network in Europe.

我想說，我們與 MasOrange 的協議實際上是歐洲第一個開放可編程網路。

It's a key milestone for us and the European telecoms industry.

這對我們和歐洲電信產業來說都是一個重要的里程碑。

With this agreement, Ericsson and MasOrange will collaborate to lay the foundation for open programmable infrastructure that will drive technological advances and growth moving forward.

透過該協議，愛立信和 MasOrange 將合作為開放可編程基礎設施奠定基礎，推動未來的技術進步和成長。

It will allow differentiated connectivity.

它將允許差異化連接。

And why is differentiated connectivity so important?

為什麼差異化連結如此重要？

Well, if you think about the whole radio stack, and we are serving a massive number of different applications.

好吧，如果你考慮整個無線電堆棧，我們正在為大量不同的應用程式提供服務。

We're serving anything from mobile broadband, fixed wireless access, mission-critical communication, but also AI glass or AI-driven new applications.

我們提供的服務涵蓋行動寬頻、固定無線接入、關鍵任務通信，以及人工智慧眼鏡或人工智慧驅動的新應用。

We have AR/VR glasses, all of them will require differentiated connectivity.

我們有 AR/VR 眼鏡，它們都需要差異化的連結。

And here, programmable connectivity plays a very important role.

在這裡，可程式連接起著非常重要的作用。

That's why that's a key focus for us.

這就是為什麼這是我們關注的重點。

But besides that, we also launched a number of enhancements to our portfolio, including more sustainable Massive MIMO radio with more than 25% energy savings and new RAN software capabilities that significantly boost performance and programmability.

但除此之外，我們還對我們的產品組合進行了多項增強，包括更永續的 Massive MIMO 無線電（可節省 25% 以上的能源）和新的 RAN 軟體功能（可顯著提高效能和可編程性）。

On the enterprise side, the joint venture we announced in September with 12 leading service providers to aggregate and sell network APIs represent a key milestone in redefining the telecom industry by creating the supply of network APIs across several continents.

在企業方面，我們在九月宣布與 12 家領先的服務提供商成立合資企業，以聚合和銷售網路 API，這是透過在幾大洲創建網路 API 供應來重新定義電信行業的一個重要里程碑。

And we continue to see the momentum building for network APIs.

我們繼續看到網路 API 的發展勢頭。

And during the fourth quarter, we also announced the name for the new venture, Aduna, and you can expect many more announcements to come in the future here.

在第四季度，我們也宣布了新公司的名稱－Aduna，未來您還可以期待更多公告。

In Enterprise Wireless Solutions, our strategic ambition is to further build out the go-to-market engine.

在企業無線解決方案方面，我們的策略目標是進一步打造市場引擎。

Last year, we combined the activities under the Ericsson brand and announced a new enterprise 5G portfolio, including neutral host solutions to enable full indoor connectivity.

去年，我們整合了愛立信品牌下的業務，並宣布了新的企業 5G 產品組合，其中包括實現完整室內連接的中立主機解決方案。

Overall, we saw very good traction in the new portfolio in Q4.

總體而言，我們看到第四季新的投資組合表現非常好。

So as you can see, we are not standing still.

正如你所看到的，我們並沒有停滯不前。

We're taking actions to execute on our strategy to ensure that Ericsson remains well positioned for the future, while also laying the foundation to change the overall trajectory of the RAN market.

我們正在採取行動執行我們的策略，以確保愛立信在未來保持有利地位，同時也為改變 RAN 市場的整體趨勢奠定基礎。

Second, I'd like to provide some, call it, comments on the overall RAN market and how we're preparing ourselves for different market conditions.

其次，我想就整個 RAN 市場以及我們如何為不同的市場條件做好準備提供一些評論。

And you've seen that's been critical.

你已經看到，這至關重要。

In 2024, the overall market continued to be quite challenging, and I would say continued to decline during the year.

2024 年，整體市場持續面臨相當大的挑戰，我認為這一年內市場將持續下滑。

However, today, we are starting to see some very positive indications, and we have further reasons to believe that the overall market is starting to stabilize.

然而，今天我們開始看到一些非常積極的跡象，我們有進一步的理由相信整體市場開始穩定。

And you saw in Q4, sales returned to growth for the first time in eight quarters, increasing by 2%.

您可以在第四季度看到，銷售額八個季度以來首次恢復成長，成長了 2%。

We continued strong growth in North America as well as growth in Europe.

我們在北美和歐洲持續保持強勁成長。

Growth in data and new applications, that's what's going to drive the market over the medium to long-term.

數據和新應用的成長將是中長期推動市場發展的動力。

But ultimately, and we've said this so many times before, the near-term market recovery is in the hands of our customers, but our confidence in a stabilizing market is growing, driven by positive customer discussions and interactions and that we see a return to our largest markets, the US as well as Europe.

但最終，正如我們之前多次說過的那樣，短期市場復甦掌握在我們的客戶手中，但我們對市場穩定的信心正在增強，這受到積極的客戶討論和互動的推動，而且我們看到了我們最大市場——美國和歐洲——的復甦。

So I think the front runner experience we have with the US market can give us comfort that we are starting to see a change in sentiment.

因此，我認為，我們在美國市場的領先經驗可以讓我們感到欣慰，我們開始看到情緒的變化。

But regardless of the market conditions, we need to structurally improve our business through rigorous cost management, of course, but also improving our working capital and the capital we tie up in the business that will strengthen our cash flow and balance sheet.

但無論市場狀況如何，我們都需要透過嚴格的成本管理從結構上改善我們的業務，當然，也要改善我們的營運資本和我們在業務中投入的資本，以加強我們的現金流量和資產負債表。

So, for example, during the past few -- well, year and years actually, we have taken a lot of actions to structurally take out costs, and you can see the results in our gross margin increasing by more than 500 bps to 44.9%.

舉個例子，在過去幾年裡，我們採取了很多措施來從結構上削減成本，你可以看到我們的毛利率增加了 500 個基點以上，達到 44.9%。

Market mix, IPR licensing revenue, of course, and the focus on the profitable segments in enterprise all contributed as well.

當然，市場結構、知識產權授權收入以及對企業獲利部分的關注也都做出了貢獻。

In 2024, total headcount, internal and external fell by 9,400 or 8%.

2024年，內部和外部員工總數將減少 9,400 人，即 8%。

So it's just not in our gross margin where we're structurally improving the profitability.

因此，我們從結構上提高獲利能力的途徑並不只是毛利率。

We're actually taking OpEx out as well.

我們實際上也正在削減營運支出 (OpEx)。

And as you've all seen, the fourth quarter included significantly higher bonus provisions than last year and clearly above normalized levels during the quarter.

正如大家所看到的，第四季的獎金撥備比去年同期大幅增加，並且明顯高於本季的正常水準。

So underlying OpEx developed well and fell down or fell.

因此基礎運營支出發展良好但下降或下跌。

Adjusted EBITA margin increased by 300 bps to 11%.

調整後的 EBITA 利潤率增加 300 個基點，達到 11%。

We're not yet where we want to be here, but we're making progress towards our long-term goal.

我們尚未達到我們想要的目標，但我們正在朝著我們的長期目標前進。

Going forward, we're going to continue to strengthen our business and focus on operational excellence and we remain committed to our long-term EBITA margin target.

展望未來，我們將繼續加強我們的業務並專注於卓越運營，並繼續致力於我們的長期 EBITA 利潤率目標。

Over the past 18 months, we have implemented actions to structurally lower our working capital, together with the change in business mix following the completion of the large rollout project in India that we had in 2023.

在過去的 18 個月中，我們採取了一系列措施來結構性降低營運資本，並在 2023 年完成印度大型推廣專案後改變了業務組合。

We generated free cash flow of SEK40 billion during 2024.

2024 年，我們產生了 400 億瑞典克朗的自由現金流。

And that puts us in a very strong financial position.

這使我們的財務狀況非常強勁。

Turning to capital allocation.

轉向資本配置。

Our first priority is to invest in R&D to maintain and grow our technology leadership across networks and enterprise solutions and network APIs.

我們的首要任務是投資研發，以維持和發展我們在網路、企業解決方案和網路 API 方面的技術領先地位。

Alongside R&D, we prioritize a strong balance sheet and attractive shareholder returns.

除了研發，我們還優先考慮強勁的資產負債表和有吸引力的股東回報。

I would also say that we actually have a very well positioned portfolio today.

我還要說的是，我們今天的投資組合實際上定位非常良好。

So we see possibility to do some smaller add-on bolt-ons, could be geographic, could be technology-wise, but what we have positions us really well to organically develop the business, and we're very satisfied with where we are.

因此，我們看到了進行一些較小的附加調整的可能性，可能是地理位置方面的，也可能是技術方面的，但我們現在所擁有的條件讓我們能夠很好地有機地發展業務，我們對目前的狀況非常滿意。

So today, you saw the Board proposing a dividend of SEK2.85 per share, corresponding to a total amount of SEK9.5 billion.

所以今天，您看到董事會提議每股發放 2.85 瑞典克朗的股息，總額為 95 億瑞典克朗。

I'd say this is a testament to the confidence the Board has in our strategy as well as the longer term.

我想說，這證明了董事會對我們的策略以及長期目標的信心。

So as you can see, it was a strong end to the year but now let me comment more specifically on some of the market developments we saw in Q4.

正如您所看到的，這是今年的一個強勁收官，但現在讓我更具體地評論一下我們在第四季度看到的一些市場發展。

In North America, sales increased by 54%.

在北美，銷售額成長了54%。

In networks, sales increased by 70%, of course, driven by the rollout of our AT&T contract, but also strong year-end hardware demand and significant software traction with other large customers.

在網路方面，銷售額成長了 70%，這當然是由於我們與 AT&T 簽訂的合約的推出，但也有年底強勁的硬體需求和其他大客戶對軟體的巨大吸引力。

Sales in Europe and Latin America increased by 2%.

歐洲和拉丁美洲的銷售額成長了2%。

The strength in Europe, in particular, benefited from the market share gains and strong deliveries.

歐洲市場的強勁表現尤其受益於市場份額的成長和強勁的交付量。

Sales decreased in all other regions, specifically Latin America continues to be a market with intense competition and lower customer network investments.

所有其他地區的銷售額均有所下降，特別是拉丁美洲市場競爭仍然激烈，客戶網路投資較低。

In Southeast Asia, Oceania and India, sales decreased, primarily due to lower network sales in India after a record year in 2023.

在東南亞、大洋洲和印度，銷售額下降，主要原因是印度在 2023 年創下紀錄後網路銷售額下降。

Sales in Northeast Asia as well as Middle East and Africa also slowed.

東北亞以及中東和非洲的銷售也有所放緩。

This was really due to investment levels slowing down following the recent 5G build-out in the front runner markets as well as some macro pressures in Africa that we're all aware of.

這實際上是由於最近領先市場 5G 建設之後投資水平放緩，以及我們都知道的非洲的一些宏觀壓力。

At the same time, we had good customer success in all of these regions in the quarter.

同時，本季我們在所有這些地區的客戶都取得了良好的成功。

So for example, we announced a multiyear contract extension for 4G and 5G RAN with Bharti.

例如，我們宣布與 Bharti 延長 4G 和 5G RAN 的多年合約。

We also had a contract win of nationwide 5G deployment for VNPT in Vietnam.

我們也贏得了越南VNPT全國5G部署合約。

With that, I would like to hand over to Lars to go through the financial details.

說完這些，我想把話題交給拉爾斯 (Lars) 來討論財務細節。

All right.

好的。

Thank you, Börje.

謝謝你，Börje。

Let me start by giving you some additional points on the group before discussing the segments more in detail.

在更詳細地討論各個部分之前，讓我先向您介紹一些有關該組的其他要點。

Net sales in Q4 amounted to SEK72.9 billion and organic sales were up 2%.

第四季淨銷售額為 729 億瑞典克朗，有機銷售額成長 2%。

North America growth was strong for the third quarter in a row and we also had slight growth in Europe for the second quarter in a row.

北美地區連續第三個季度強勁成長，歐洲地區也連續第二季實現小幅成長。

The other markets declined, particularly India, where investments level have normalized after a peak in 2023.

其他市場則出現下滑，尤其是印度，其投資水準在 2023 年達到高峰後已恢復正常。

Adjusted gross margin was 46.3% in Q4, an increase from 41.1% in the prior year here.

第四季調整後毛利率為 46.3%，高於去年同期的 41.1%。

Margin improved with supply chain efficiency to focus on commercial discipline and a favorable market mix.

隨著供應鏈效率的提高，利潤率得到了提高，重點是商業紀律和有利的市場組合。

OpEx in the quarter was SEK23.8 billion, up by SEK1.7 billion compared to the prior year, mainly because bonus accruals were above target levels in '24, having been below in last year.

本季的營運支出為 238 億瑞典克朗，比上年增加 17 億瑞典克朗，主要因為 24 年的獎金應計額高於目標水平，而去年則低於目標水平。

The cost-out activities continued to deliver savings.

成本削減活動持續帶來成本節約。

These balanced out salary increases and part of the higher bonuses.

這些平衡了薪資成長和部分更高的獎金。

Adjusted EBITA increased to SEK10.2 billion with a margin of 14.1%, marking a significant expansion year-on-year.

調整後 EBITA 增至 102 億瑞典克朗，利潤率為 14.1%，較去年同期大幅擴張。

Cash flow was strong at SEK15.8 billion.

現金流強勁，達到158億瑞典克朗。

The improvements came from improved profitability and lower working capital.

這些改善源自於獲利能力的提高和營運資本的降低。

Let's move on to the results for the full year.

讓我們繼續討論全年業績。

Net sales amounted to SEK247.9 billion and organic sales declined by 5%.

淨銷售額為2,479億瑞典克朗，有機銷售額下降5%。

Very strong growth in North America was offset by organic sales declines in all the other market areas.

北美地區的強勁成長被所有其他市場區域的有機銷售下滑所抵消。

The sales decline which gave a significant volume impact on gross income was more than offset by an increase in gross margin.

銷售額的下降對總收入產生了很大影響，但毛利率的提高足以抵消這一影響。

Adjusted gross margin was 44.9%, an increase from 39.6% in 2023.

調整後毛利率為 44.9%，高於 2023 年的 39.6%。

Margin improved with a favorable market mix, cost reduction initiatives, including supply chain efficiency as well as higher IPR licensing revenues and the focus on more profitable market segments in enterprise.

有利的市場組合、成本削減措施（包括供應鏈效率、更高的智慧財產權授權收入以及對企業中更有利可圖的細分市場的關注）推動了利潤率的提高。

The result on gross income was an increase of SEK7 billion to SEK111.4 billion.

總收入增加了 70 億瑞典克朗，達到 1,114 億瑞典克朗。

Reported OpEx was up by SEK15.2 billion compared to the prior year, mainly because of the intangible asset impairment of SEK14.1 billion.

報告的營運支出較上年同期增加了 152 億瑞典克朗，主要原因是無形資產減損 141 億瑞典克朗。

Excluding impairments, total OpEx was SEK88.4 billion, which is an increase of SEK1.9 billion.

除去減損損失，總營運支出為884億瑞典克朗，增加了19億瑞典克朗。

This is mainly because the higher bonus accrual levels compared to 2023.

這主要是因為與 2023 年相比，獎金累積水準更高。

R&D investments continued to maintain technology leadership, for example, to accelerate delivery of some 5G features and to further improve operational resilience.

研發投資持續保持技術領先地位，例如加速交付部分5G功能並進一步提高營運彈性。

Excluding restructuring, impairments and the discontinuation of capitalization of development expenses in enterprise impacts, R&D increased by around SEK1 billion in the year.

除去重組、減損和停止將開發費用資本化對企業的影響，當年的研發費用增加了約 10 億瑞典克朗。

SG&A costs, excluding restructuring and impairments also increased slightly, primarily in segment enterprise with investments to improve operational effectiveness.

不包括重組和減損在內的銷售、一般及行政費用也略有增加，主要是由於各分部企業進行了投資以提高營運效率。

Adjusted EBITA increased to SEK27.2 billion.

調整後 EBITA 增至 272 億瑞典克朗。

The margin was 11%, marking an almost 3 percentage point expansion year-on-year.

利潤率為11%，較去年成長近3個百分點。

And net income for the full year was SEK0.4 billion compared to minus SEK26.1 billion in 2023.

全年淨收入為 4 億瑞典克朗，而 2023 年為負 261 億瑞典克朗。

Net income in '23 was impacted by the impairment of goodwill of SEK31.9 billion and in '24 by a non-cash impairment charge of SEK15.3 billion.

23 年的淨收入受到 319 億瑞典克朗商譽減損的影響，24 年的淨收入受到 153 億瑞典克朗非現金減損費用的影響。

The effective tax rate for 2024 was 28%, excluding the impairment charges.

2024 年的有效稅率為 28%，不包括減損費用。

Cash flow was very strong at SEK40 billion.

現金流非常強勁，達到400億瑞典克朗。

The improvements came from improved profitability and working capital resulting from a favorable market mix, customer payments and efficient supply chain management.

這些改善源自於良好的市場組合、客戶付款和高效的供應鏈管理所帶來的獲利能力和營運資本的提高。

I cover this more in detail later.

我稍後會更詳細地介紹這一點。

Let's comment on IPR licensing.

讓我們評論一下知識產權許可。

Q4 marked the fourth quarter in a row that a new IPR agreement was signed.

第四季是連續第四個季度簽署新的智慧財產權協議。

This means at the end of 2024, most of the top 10 smartphone vendors were licensed for 5G.

這意味著到 2024 年底，排名前十大智慧型手機供應商中的大多數都已獲得 5G 許可。

IPR licensing revenues increased to SEK14 billion in 2024, including retroactive revenue of around SEK1 billion from just over SEK11 billion in 2023.

智慧財產權授權收入將從 2023 年的 110 億瑞典克朗增至 2024 年的 140 億瑞典克朗，其中包括約 10 億瑞典克朗的追溯收入。

We are at a record run rate of SEK13 billion in recurring IPR revenue going into 2025.

到 2025 年，我們的經常性智慧財產權收入將達到創紀錄的 130 億瑞典克朗。

There are further growth opportunities with a few additional 5G agreements remaining and the potential to expand in additional licensing areas such as automotive and IoT.

由於還剩下一些 5G 協議，並且有在汽車和物聯網等其他授權領域擴展的潛力，因此還存在進一步的成長機會。

With that, let's move to the financial trends.

下面，讓我們來討論一下金融趨勢。

While the market conditions have clearly been challenging, we have been seeing a stabilization of sales in Q4.

儘管市場環境顯然充滿挑戰，但我們看到第四季的銷售趨於穩定。

Rolling 12-month sales bottomed at Q3 '24.

連續 12 個月的銷售額在 24 年第三季觸底。

The gross margin trend shows that the focus on growing the patent portfolio, the improved utilization of supply chain and cost actions are paying off.

毛利率趨勢表明，注重擴大專利組合、提高供應鏈利用率和成本行動正在取得成效。

The more favorable market mix has also contributed.

更有利的市場組合也發揮了一定作用。

We have seen a favorable development of EBITA, which ended up the year at SEK27.2 billion, up by 27% compared to the prior year.

我們看到 EBITA 取得了良好的發展勢頭，年底 EBITA 達到 272 億瑞典克朗，比上年增長 27%。

The lower level of sales in the first three quarters compared to the previous year and increased operating expenses moderated EBITA margin improvement.

前三個季度的銷售額較上年同期下降，以及營業費用的增加減緩了 EBITA 利潤率的提升。

Let's move to the segments.

讓我們進入正題。

In networks, organic sales increased by 5% year-on-year.

在網路中，有機銷售額較去年同期成長5％。

North America grew 70% from very low levels last year with contract wins and a strong year-end software demand contributing.

受合約簽訂和年底軟體需求強勁的推動，北美市場從去年的低水準成長了 70%。

Sales in Europe grew slightly.

歐洲銷售額略有成長。

In the other markets, customers continued to be cautious with their investments and the largest decline was in India, where the investment levels have now normalized after a peak in '23.

在其他市場，客戶對投資持續保持謹慎，其中跌幅最大的是印度，該國的投資水準在23年達到高峰後目前已恢復正常。

Networks' adjusted gross margin was 49.1% with a favorable market mix or business mix, cost actions and operational leverage in the supply chain all contributing.

網路調整後的毛利率為49.1%，有利的市場組合或業務組合、成本行動和供應鏈中的營運槓桿均起到了推動作用。

IPR revenues increased and benefiting from a further licensing agreement and contributed to the gross margin improvement.

知識產權收入增加並受益於進一步的許可協議，並促進了毛利率的提高。

Networks' adjusted EBITA increased to SEK10.1 billion from SEK7.4 billion in the prior year, and adjusted EBITA margin was 21.6% in Q4 and 17.5% for '24 overall.

網路的調整後 EBITA 從上年的 74 億瑞典克朗增加到 101 億瑞典克朗，第四季調整後的 EBITA 利潤率為 21.6%，24 年全年調整後的 EBITA 利潤率為 17.5%。

EBITA improved due to higher sales and improved gross margins, partly offset by higher OpEx affected by the before mentioned higher bonus accruals and investments in R&D.

EBITA的提高是由於銷售額的增加和毛利率的提高，但被前面提到的更高的獎金提列和研發投資所影響的更高的營運支出所部分抵消。

In segment cloud software and services, organic sales were stable, with sales growth in North America offset by sales declines in the other market areas.

在雲端軟體和服務領域，有機銷售額保持穩定，北美地區的銷售額成長被其他市場區域的銷售額下滑所抵消。

Adjusted gross margin was 39%, improving from the prior year and benefiting from the delivery performance and higher software sales.

調整後的毛利率為39%，較前一年改善，受益於交付績效和軟體銷售額的增加。

The strategy execution with focus on commercial discipline and accelerated automation is paying off.

以商業紀律和加速自動化為重點的策略實施正在取得成效。

The improvement in gross margin was offset by higher bonus accruals, reflecting an above-target outcome in '24, which resulted in an EBITA margin of 9.3% in Q4 and 3.2% for 2024.

毛利率的提高被更高的獎金應計額所抵消，反映出24年的業績高於目標，導致第四季度的 EBITA 利潤率為 9.3%，2024 年的 EBITA 利潤率為 3.2%。

In enterprise, sales declined by 7%.

在企業方面，銷售額下降了7%。

Enterprise Wireless Solutions grew by 19% with strong growth in private 5G and neutral host solutions.

企業無線解決方案成長了 19%，其中私人 5G 和中立主機解決方案實現了強勁成長。

Sales in global communications platform declined 17%, impacted by the decision to reduce activity in some countries and focus on more profitable market than product segments.

受決定減少部分國家業務並專注於利潤更高的市場而非產品領域的影響，全球通訊平台的銷售額下降了 17%。

Adjusted gross margin increased to 54.3%, and adjusted gross income increased by SEK0.3 billion year-on-year despite the sales decline.

調整後毛利率增至54.3%，調整後總收入儘管銷售額下滑，但年比仍增加了3億瑞典克朗。

The adjusted EBITA loss was minus SEK1.2 billion with a decrease year-on-year, mainly reflecting non-recurring impacts, in part related to the exit of certain businesses as well as increased investments to improve operational effectiveness.

調整後的 EBITA 虧損為負 12 億瑞典克朗，年比下降，主要反映非經常性影響，部分與退出某些業務以及增加投資以提高營運效率有關。

To focus on improving the financial performance in the current portfolio continues at the same time as we also invest for the future.

我們將繼續致力於改善當前投資組合的財務業績，同時我們也為未來進行投資。

Turning to free cash flow, which was SEK15.8 billion before M&A in the quarter and SEK40 billion for the year.

談到自由現金流，本季併購前為 158 億瑞典克朗，全年為 400 億瑞典克朗。

We delivered a cash flow margin of 16% to net sales for the year, well above our 9% to 12% target.

我們實現的現金流量利潤率為全年淨銷售額的 16%，遠高於我們的 9% 至 12% 的目標。

The increase in cash flow compared to '23 is due to the earnings growth and very strong working capital, as I mentioned before.

正如我之前提到的，與 23 年相比，現金流的增加是由於獲利成長和非常強勁的營運資本。

Working capital benefited from the structural actions we have taken to improve supply chain, cash efficiency and from market mix, particularly between India and the US.

營運資本受惠於我們為改善供應鏈、現金效率和市場組合（尤其是印度和美國之間的市場組合）所採取的結構性行動。

On top of this, strong collections and customer prepayments also contributed.

除此之外，強勁的收款和客戶預付款也做出了貢獻。

And this means working capital is now at historically low levels, and we expect this to partially reverse in '25.

這意味著營運資本現在處於歷史最低水平，我們預計這種情況將在25年部分逆轉。

Net cash increased sequentially by SEK12.3 billion to SEK37.8 billion.

淨現金季增123億瑞典克朗，達378億瑞典克朗。

And return on capital employed in '24 was 2.5%.

1924年的資本使用報酬率為2.5%。

This includes an over 7 percentage point impact from the impairments.

這包括因損害而產生的超過 7 個百分點的影響。

Next, I will cover the outlook.

接下來我將介紹前景。

Turning first to sales.

首先談談銷售。

For networks, Q4 continued the strong trend from Q3.

對於網路而言，第四季延續了第三季的強勁趨勢。

So the 2024 exit rate is high.

因此 2024 年的退出率很高。

Despite this, we still expect networks Q1 to be broadly similar to the average three-year seasonality.

儘管如此，我們仍然預期第一季的網路季節性與三年平均季節性大致相似。

We expect cloud software and services to be similar as well.

我們期望雲端軟體和服務也能類似。

In enterprise, sales will continue to be impacted by near-term by the decision to focus on profitable markets and products.

在企業方面，由於決定專注於獲利市場和產品，短期內銷售將繼續受到影響。

And next, turning to profitability and networks' gross margin.

接下來我們來談談獲利能力和網路的毛利率。

For Q1, the networks' gross margin is expected to be in the range of 47% to 49% with some initial impact from the timing of swaps in North America but still benefiting from a positive market mix.

第一季度，網路的毛利率預計在 47% 至 49% 之間，雖然最初受到北美掉期時機的影響，但仍受益於積極的市場組合。

And with still significant revenue declines in some markets, restructuring is expected to remain elevated in 2025, as we continue to adjust operating model and focus on operational excellence.

由於某些市場的收入仍然大幅下降，隨著我們繼續調整營運模式並專注於卓越運營，預計 2025 年重組仍將保持在高位。

With that, I hand back to you, Börje.

說完這些，我就把麥克風交給你了，Börje。

Thank you, Lars.

謝謝你，拉爾斯。

So the global RAN market continued to be challenged in 2024.

因此，2024年全球RAN市場將持續面臨挑戰。

But I would say we were well prepared for this as we took actions early to adjust our business for a more realistic levels of demand.

但我想說，我們對此已經做好了充分的準備，因為我們提前採取行動來調整我們的業務，以滿足更現實的需求水平。

North America returned to growth in Q2, and we saw a stronger end of the year broadly as our networks' revenue returned to growth in Q4.

北美地區在第二季度恢復了成長，由於我們的網路收入在第四季度恢復了成長，我們年底的整體表現更為強勁。

Looking ahead, we see further signs of the RAN market stabilizing.

展望未來，我們看到 RAN 市場進一步穩定的跡象。

Our recent customer discussions indicate an accelerating interest around our programmable networks.

我們最近的客戶討論表明，客戶對我們的可編程網路的興趣日益濃厚。

And in many markets, there is a need to invest to keep network performance at a competitive level.

在許多市場中，需要進行投資來保持網路效能處於競爭水平。

It's encouraging, but we recognize that the exact timing of the investments that will be made, of course, those decisions are in the hands of our customers.

這是令人鼓舞的，但我們認識到，投資的具體時機當然由我們的客戶決定。

We will continue to execute on our strategy to capitalize on the evolving market dynamics.

我們將繼續執行我們的策略，利用不斷變化的市場動態。

This strategy is focused on building the industry's best-performing programmable networks that enable differentiated services and increased monetization opportunities for our mobile operator customers through new use cases, including exposing network capabilities through network APIs.

該策略專注於建立業界性能最佳的可編程網絡，透過新的用例（包括透過網路 API 公開網路功能）為我們的行動電信商客戶提供差異化服務並增加獲利機會。

In addition, we remain focused on the things we can impact, and that's of course how we run our business, including cost and working capital management and naturally strengthening our product portfolio as well.

此外，我們仍然專注於我們能夠影響的事情，這當然也是我們經營業務的方式，包括成本和營運資本管理，以及自然而然地加強我們的產品組合。

This way, we ensure Ericsson continues to be well positioned to create value for its stakeholders when the market fully recovers.

透過這種方式，我們確保愛立信在市場全面復甦時能夠繼續為利害關係人創造價值。

Our goal is to make Ericsson a more profitable company based on the leading position in mobile infrastructure and to develop new use cases and monetization opportunities.

我們的目標是基於行動基礎設施領域的領先地位，使愛立信成為一家更具盈利能力的公司，並開發新的用例和貨幣化機會。

This will change the trajectory of Ericsson, but also the telecom market that I would say the last decades have actually flattened out.

這將改變愛立信的發展軌跡，而且我認為過去幾十年來電信市場實際上已經趨於平穩。

And by changing these dynamics, we're into a situation where we'll see further investments in the network.

透過改變這些動態，我們將看到對網路的進一步投資。

So to sum up, in 2024, we took several critical steps in our strategy, and we'll continue doing so in 2025.

總而言之，2024 年，我們在策略中邁出了幾個關鍵步驟，2025 年我們將繼續這樣做。

So on that note, I actually want to thank all my colleagues in the company for all their hard work.

因此，我實際上想感謝公司所有同事的辛勤工作。

Thank you, team.

謝謝你們，團隊。

With that, I think it's time for Q&A, Daniel.

好了，我想現在是問答時間了，丹尼爾。

Super.

極好的。

Thanks, Börje.

謝謝，Börje。

We'll move on to the Q&A now.

我們現在進入問答環節。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指令）

Andrew Gardiner, Citi.

花旗銀行的安德魯‧加德納 (Andrew Gardiner)。

Good morning, guys.

大家早安。

Thanks very much for taking the call.

非常感謝您接聽電話。

I had one on the dynamics in the North American market.

我有一個關於北美市場動態的文章。

If I go back to the commentary you were making at the time of third quarter, you had a good result then, but you were expecting the sequential trend into 4Q was perhaps going to be a little softer seasonally off that stronger 3Q.

如果我回顧您在第三季時所發表的評論，您當時取得了不錯的成績，但您預計第四季度的連續趨勢可能會比第三季略有季節性疲軟。

As it turns out this morning, you're showing us very good trends in the US, in particular, you're obviously highlighting the share gains.

正如今天早上所看到的，你們向我們展示了美國非常好的趨勢，特別是你們明顯強調了股價的上漲。

Lars, you briefly just mentioned swap-outs as well.

拉爾斯，你剛才也簡單提到了換人。

So I was interested in a bit more detail in terms of what's happening in the market?

那麼我對市場動態的更多細節很感興趣呢？

What indeed drove that upside relative to your earlier expectations.

與您之前的預期相比，究竟是什麼推動了這種上漲？

Was it more share gain under the new contract?

新合約是否會增加股份？

Was it the broader market coming back, inventory replenishment?

是大盤回溫、庫存補充嗎？

A little bit around that would be really helpful.

了解這一點確實會很有幫助。

I can take that.

我可以接受。

Thanks, Andrew, for the question.

謝謝安德魯提問。

It's a good question.

這是個好問題。

And what we have seen and that's why you see us talk more optimistically and confidently about the market starting to recover.

我們已經看到，這就是為什麼你會看到我們更樂觀和自信地談論市場開始復甦。

We actually have seen the investment levels coming up in North America.

我們實際上已經看到北美的投資水準正在上升。

Part of it is, of course, to replenish from a very low inventory level that we've seen in the industry.

當然，部分原因是為了補充我們在行業中看到的非常低的庫存水準。

And part of it is, of course, driven by, call it, the traffic growth and the need for connectivity.

當然，部分原因在於流量成長和連線需求。

So I feel that we saw a little bit broader base of purchases in Q4 than we may be expected when Q4 began.

因此，我覺得我們看到的第四季的購買基礎比第四季開始時預期的要廣泛一些。

Francois Bouvignies, UBS.

瑞銀的 Francois Bouvignies。

Hi.

你好。

Thank you very much for taking my question.

非常感謝您回答我的問題。

I have a question maybe more on the geopolitical side of things.

我的問題可能更多地涉及地緣政治方面。

We have seen, of course, Trump getting into elections and talking about the tariff potential.

當然，我們看到川普參加選舉並談論關稅潛力。

And I was wondering given your high exposure to North America, where your production is globally?

我想知道，鑑於你們在北美的知名度很高，你們在全球的生產地點在哪裡？

Because when I look at your annual report on 20-F, I know you don't manufacture yourself, but you have like a significant portion of your revenue that's still in-house on the testing and assembly, which seems to be in China, but correct me if I'm wrong and outsourcing is through EMS, which I assume is mostly in Asia.

因為當我查看你們的 20-F 年度報告時，我知道你們並不自行生產，但你們收入的很大一部分仍然來自內部測試和組裝，這似乎是在中國，但如果我錯了，請糾正我，外包是透過 EMS 進行的，我認為主要在亞洲。

So it seems that mostly your supply chain is coming from Asia.

所以看起來你們的供應鏈主要來自亞洲。

And I was wondering how should we factor the potential of tariff over time in your business.

我想知道我們應該如何考慮您業務中隨時間推移的關稅潛力。

So if you can help on that and does it change your strategy may be doing more in local North America?

那麼，如果您能在這方面提供幫助，這是否會改變您的策略，在北美當地做更多的事情？

That would be very helpful.

那將會非常有幫助。

Thank you.

謝謝。

I can start.

我可以開始了。

If you look at our supply chain, as you mentioned, we have production today in North America.

如果你看看我們的供應鏈，正如你所提到的，我們今天在北美進行生產。

So where we are made in America for America.

所以我們是在美國為美國製造的。

We have in Latin America.

在拉丁美洲我們有。

We have in Europe.

我們在歐洲有。

We have in Asia.

我們在亞洲有。

We have in India.

在印度我們有。

So we have pretty broad-based production capacity that we are utilizing.

因此，我們擁有相當廣泛的生產能力並加以利用。

And we have the opportunity to move production between the different sites, both in our internal but also with the external manufacturing sites that we have.

我們有機會在不同的站點之間轉移生產，包括我們內部的製造站點，也包括我們外部的製造站點。

So it's not something that we do easily.

所以這不是一件我們能輕易做到的事。

It depends a little bit on the product mix, et cetera, of course, but we have this opportunity to work with the supply chain depending on what kind of decisions that we will see ahead of us.

當然，這在一定程度上取決於產品結構等等，但我們有機會與供應鏈合作，這取決於我們即將看到的決策類型。

Having said that, of course, tariffs could have an impact going into 2025.

話雖如此，關稅當然可能會對 2025 年產生影響。

But I think we are all waiting a little bit to what is going to happen there.

但我認為我們都在等待那裡將會發生什麼。

But we are working on that continuously trying to balance and utilize the system we have.

但我們正在不斷努力平衡和利用現有的系統。

And as you know, we built a factory in the US, I would just add that.

如你所知，我們在美國建造了一家工廠，我只是想補充這一點。

We commissioned it, I think, 2019 or 2020.

我想，我們是在 2019 年或 2020 年委託這項工作的。

It's a few years ago.

已經是幾年前的事了。

In reality, preparing for a different geopolitical situation.

實際上是在為不同的地緣政治局勢做準備。

And I think the whole world is moving from a cost-optimized supply chain to a resilience.

我認為整個世界正在從成本優化的供應鏈轉向彈性供應鏈。

You need to factor in resilience in the supply chain.

您需要考慮供應鏈的彈性。

And that's why we built up the US factory.

這就是我們建立美國工廠的原因。

And we're increasing the -- we're investing to increase that capacity in North America as well.

而且我們正在增加——我們也在投資以增加北美的產能。

And then we'll all have to see, just like Lars said, how will this look in reality and then adjust as much as possible.

然後，就像拉爾斯所說的那樣，我們都必須看看這在現實中會是什麼樣子，然後盡可能地進行調整。

So I think we just have to see with that question.

所以我認為我們只需要看看這個問題。

I think also worth mentioning on tariffs, normally, it's not general tariffs.

我認為還值得一提的是關稅，通常它不是一般關稅。

It can be different.

它可以是不同的。

There can be exemptions, et cetera.

可以有豁免等等。

And we have seen that in the past where critical products for a market has been exempted from tariffs, et cetera.

我們已經看到，過去某個市場的關鍵產品被免關稅等等。

So it's too early to say what's going to happen.

因此現在談論將會發生什麼還為時過早。

But of course, we are working -- following this closely.

但當然，我們正在密切關注此事。

Very clear.

非常清楚。

Can I have a follow-up?

我可以進行後續跟進嗎？

Or should I go to the queue?

還是我應該去排隊？

If it's very brief, we can take it.

如果很簡短的話，我們可以接受。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean just on the software dynamics side, you ended the year with a good software mix based on your comments.

我的意思是，僅從軟體動態方面來看，根據您的評論，您在年底時就擁有了良好的軟體組合。

I was just wondering if you think that's going to continue in '25 or early '25?

我只是想知道您是否認為這種情況會在 25 年或 25 年初繼續下去？

That's it.

就是這樣。

Thank you.

謝謝。

I think when it comes to single quarter, especially the fourth quarter, we tend to have a higher software mix, in this year as well, and maybe even a little bit exaggerated in the quarter.

我認為就單一季度而言，特別是第四季度，我們的軟體組合往往會更高，今年也是如此，甚至在本季度可能有點誇張。

So to see it as a trend is maybe too early to talk about.

因此，將其視為一種趨勢可能還為時過早。

But I think we should add there, the industry -- if you think what's actually happening.

但我認為我們應該補充一下，如果你想知道實際發生了什麼。

When we horizontalize the network, which as you know, that's what we have been working on.

當我們將網路水平化時，正如你所知，這就是我們一直致力於的事情。

That's the whole basis for the contract win in the US as well as in Europe.

這是在美國和歐洲贏得合約的全部基礎。

It's an increasing amount of software that structurally is going to come.

從結構上看，軟體的數量將不斷增加。

Then Q4 is, as Lars said, but structurally, we are going to go into a situation of more software as opposed to hardware.

那麼 Q4 正如 Lars 所說，但從結構上講，我們將進入一個軟體更多而非硬體的局面。

Simon Granath, ABG.

西蒙·格拉納斯，ABG。

Good morning.

早安.

And thank you for the presentation.

感謝您的演講。

I'd like to expand a bit on the traffic growth here because you do acknowledge in your latest mobility report that it's continuously decelerating here, and one could potentially argue that this is waiting on the demand for your products.

我想稍微詳細談談這裡的交通增長，因為您在最新的移動報告中承認，這裡的交通增長正在持續減速，有人可能會說，這是在等待對您產品的需求。

Nonetheless, data traffic is still growing, and you do also expect it to continue.

儘管如此，數據流量仍在增長，您也預計它會繼續增長。

But is it fair to assume that this shift is making you put even greater emphasis on margins over the longer term, particularly if this trend continues?

但是否可以公平地假設，這種轉變將使你在長期內更加重視利潤，特別是如果這種趨勢持續下去的話？

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thanks, Simon.

謝謝，西蒙。

So it's a very good question.

這是一個非常好的問題。

Data traffic growth will be what's underlying the demand for our products.

數據流量的成長將成為我們產品需求的根本原因。

Once you build out coverage, it's truly only data traffic growth.

一旦擴大了覆蓋範圍，數據流量就真正開始成長了。

And it's right, as you said, it is gradually declining a bit, and that's fair.

是的，正如您所說，它正在逐漸下降一點，這是公平的。

I would say, though, what we are expecting to see, and that actually is a different question a bit.

不過，我想說的是，我們期待看到什麼，這實際上是一個稍微不同的問題。

But when you start to think about future applications, so far, we come from a world where it's been mobile broadband to the consumer.

但當你開始思考未來的應用時，到目前為止，我們所處的世界是面向消費者的行動寬頻世界。

That's been demanding one type of traffic.

這一直要求一種類型的流量。

What we see now in the future is actually a wide range of applications coming up.

我們現在看到的未來​​實際上是各種各樣的應用即將出現。

It's anything from AR/VR glasses, but I would single out one trend that's actually going to be very big for the traffic and start to impact network investments, and it's the whole AI.

它包括 AR/VR 眼鏡等任何東西，但我想指出一個趨勢，它實際上將對流量產生巨大影響，並開始影響網路投資，那就是整個 AI。

So far, AI has been mostly on the training side, and that's fine.

到目前為止，人工智慧主要集中在訓練方面，這很好。

But we're starting to see that come into applications.

但我們開始看到它開始應用於實際。

In enterprises, I'm sure there are going to be consumer applications.

在企業中，我相信將會有消費者應用程式。

They may well be more voice controlled.

他們可能更可能受到聲音控制。

So you're using voice as quality operating system.

所以你使用語音作為品質作業系統。

In that world, we see also a changing requirement on the network.

在那個世界裡，我們也看到網路需求的改變。

So the network needs to be prepared for the AI traffic.

因此網路需要為AI流量做好準備。

It's going to require more uplinks, going to require different performance of the network.

這將需要更多的上行鏈路，將需要不同的網路效能。

That's actually, I think, maybe more important in the next few years as a traffic definition.

事實上，我認為，這在未來幾年作為交通定義可能更為重要。

So yes, overall traffic is probably going to continue to taper down.

所以是的，總體流量可能會繼續減少。

But I think the demands coming from the new applications that run on top will actually materially impact the way you need to invest in the network.

但我認為，運行在其上的新應用程式的需求實際上會對您對網路的投資方式產生重大影響。

That also need, of course, to impact the way you get monetized for the network.

當然，這也需要影響您透過網路獲取利潤的方式。

And that's why I think we're very excited about where we are on the demand for network equipment, but also the ability to monetize that through network APIs.

這就是為什麼我認為我們對網路設備的需求感到非常興奮，同時也對透過網路 API 將其貨幣化的能力感到非常興奮。

I think they all are starting to come together, making us a critical component in how AI will be deployed.

我認為它們都開始走到一起，使我們成為人工智慧部署的關鍵組成部分。

So I think we should -- when we think about the future, there is actually one -- I mean, if you only look at consumer mobile broadband, you can get a bit negative.

所以我認為我們應該——當我們思考未來時，實際上有一個——我的意思是，如果你只看消費者行動寬頻，你可能會有點消極。

But I actually think we need to look at the other side, which is starting to happen at a very different pace.

但實際上我認為我們需要看看另一面，它正以非常不同的速度發生。

I wouldn't rule out, that's actually what we see starting to happen in North America while we actually get the demand picking up there because the data traffic is per se growing at about the same rate as before.

我不會排除這種可能，事實上我們看到北美開始出現這種情況，而我們實際上發現那裡的需求正在回升，因為資料流量本身的成長速度與以前大致相同。

But the nature of the traffic is starting to change.

但交通的性質正在開始改變。

And I think that's what should bring us excitement.

我想這正是讓我們興奮的事。

On the focus anyway, I think we need to have a very strong focus on operational excellence.

無論如何，我認為我們需要高度重視卓越營運。

And for me that -- if we focus on operational excellence, we can actually say, okay, if the additional exciting data traffic growth takes 12 months, 24 months or 36 months to be meaningful, at least we have a very solid core business.

對我來說，如果我們專注於卓越運營，我們實際上可以說，好吧，如果額外的令人興奮的數據流量增長需要 12 個月、24 個月或 36 個月才能有意義，那麼至少我們擁有非常穩固的核心業務。

So the focus on the margin is actually something we are not going to drop.

因此，我們實際上不會放棄對利潤的關注。

So we need to have that as well.

所以我們也需要這樣做。

But the other part is equally important.

但另一部分也同樣重要。

Thanks for the question, Simon.

謝謝你的提問，西蒙。

May I have a small follow-up?

我可以再問一下嗎？

Simon, I think we better just move on just because we have quite a long queue.

西蒙，我想我們最好繼續前進，因為我們的隊伍已經很長了。

But thank you for the question.

但感謝您的提問。

Feel free to join for a follow up at the back of the queue.

歡迎隨時加入，以便在隊列後面進行跟進。

Sebastien Sztabowicz, Kepler Chevreux.

Sebastien Sztabowicz、Kepler Chevreux。

Hello, everyone.

大家好。

And thanks for taking my question.

感謝您回答我的問題。

One question regarding the mix for the coming quarters, how do you see the mix evolving?

關於未來幾季的組合，您認為組合將如何發展？

And specifically attached to that, do you see any opportunity linked to 5G Advanced going forward?

具體而言，您是否認為未來 5G Advanced 有任何機會？

It seems the US operators are potentially preparing for more rollout of 5G Advanced.

看來美國營運商正在為進一步推出 5G Advanced 做準備。

Is this something that could positively affect your mix in the coming quarters?

這是否會對您的未來幾季的產品組合產生正面影響？

Thank you.

謝謝。

If I start with the mix from a geographical perspective, we have had quite a good growth in the US, as you know, in North America.

如果我從地理角度開始講，如你所知，我們在美國，也就是北美取得了相當不錯的成長。

The growth rate as such will come down as we more come into stabilized rollout, et cetera, still a bit of support.

隨著我們進一步進入穩定的推廣階段，成長率將會下降，仍然會得到一些支持。

But of course, with the very high growth rate you have seen in the past quarters will calm down.

但當然，隨著過去幾季的極高成長率，這種趨勢將會逐漸平靜下來。

And then if there are then coming -- stabilizing in the market, some recovery in some regions, that could have somewhat of a negative market mix, but also on the rollout mix as such within North America.

然後，如果市場逐漸穩定，部分地區出現復甦，這可能會對市場組合產生一定負面影響，也會對北美的推出組合產生影響。

So that is what we are trying to highlight here.

這就是我們在這裡想要強調的。

And I think when it comes to the 5G Advanced roll-out, I think I'll leave that one.

我認為，當談到 5G Advanced 的推出時，我會保留這一點。

Yeah.

是的。

I think it's a very good question.

我認為這是一個非常好的問題。

We're starting to see some traction on 5G Advanced.

我們開始看到 5G Advanced 取得一些進展。

So we're in very good discussions.

因此，我們的討論非常順利。

So I think that's the next step that's going to again give you the high-performance networks you're going to need for the future type of traffic.

所以我認為這是下一步，它將再次為您提供未來流量所需的高效能網路。

So we're quite excited about that.

所以我們對此感到非常興奮。

But I would say if it impacts the next few quarters, I think that's too much to say, but we're rather encouraged by the traction we see.

但我想說，如果它會影響接下來的幾個季度，我認為這還有待商榷，但我們對所看到的進展感到鼓舞。

Daniel Djurberg, Handelsbanken.

丹尼爾·杜爾貝格（Daniel Djurberg），德國商業銀行。

Thank you, Daniel, and good morning.

謝謝你，丹尼爾，早安。

A question on capital allocation, obviously, also broad question, but the net cash increased some SEK12.3 billion.

關於資本配置的問題顯然也是一個很廣泛的問題，但淨現金增加了約 123 億瑞典克朗。

You have a gross cash of SEK76 million after Q3 and net SEK38 billion.

第三季後，您的總現金為 7,600 萬瑞典克朗，淨現金為 380 億瑞典克朗。

And then you will have iconectiv adding some SEK10 billion, SEK11 billion to this.

然後 iconectiv 會在此基礎上增加約 100 億瑞典克朗、110 億瑞典克朗。

And you propose some SEK9.4 billion in dividends.

您提議發放約 94 億瑞典克朗的股息。

Hence, you will have a huge cash pile also after that dividend.

因此，在分紅之後，您還將擁有一大筆現金。

So the comment on the question is really how you think of the capital allocation, the cash you need for the operation and the potential for any extra dividend, buyback or if you expect to do another quite lofty acquisition or anything else that we should bear in mind?

因此，對這個問題的評論實際上是您如何看待資本配置、營運所需的現金以及任何額外股息、回購的潛力，或者您是否預計進行另一項相當大規模的收購或我們應該牢記的任何其他事情？

Thank you.

謝謝。

When it comes to capital allocation, I think, as you know, our focus is -- first priority is to ensure solid R&D so we can continue.

談到資本配置，我認為，如你所知，我們的重點是——首要任務是確保穩固的研發，以便我們能夠繼續前進。

We are long-term.

我們是長期的。

We are in technology leadership, and we need to ensure that we continue to invest to maintain our technology leadership.

我們處於技術領先地位，我們需要確保持續投資以保持我們的技術領先地位。

So that is key for us.

這對我們來說很關鍵。

Yes, we're coming out with a good net cash position, but you can also argue it's coming back to more historical levels.

是的，我們的淨現金狀況良好，但你也可以說它正在回到歷史水平。

When it comes to M&A, I think what we are looking at is where possibility could be is when it comes to bolt-ons within the product portfolio or some if there are geographical expansion, et cetera, but not any major investments in that area.

說到併購，我認為我們正在考慮的是產品組合中的附加功能，或一些地理擴張等可能性，但不會在該領域進行任何重大投資。

And then going forward, we have -- the Board has proposed an increase of dividend to show gradual improvements or increases in the dividend capacity.

展望未來，董事會已提議增加股息，以顯示股息能力的逐步改善或增加。

And then going forward, I think that will probably be a question more coming into the coming years when it comes to further dividend or allocation to the shareholders.

展望未來，我認為在未來幾年，當涉及進一步的股息或向股東分配時，這可能是一個更大的問題。

And I think, Daniel, I also want to take maybe another attack on this.

丹尼爾，我想，我也許還想對此進行另一次攻擊。

And as I said, I think we can organically develop our portfolio.

正如我所說，我認為我們可以有機地發展我們的投資組合。

We have a strong position on the mobile network side.

我們在行動網路方面佔有強勢地位。

And what we have in the enterprise side, actually, we think we have a very solid base to develop that from.

實際上，我們認為我們在企業方面擁有非常堅實的基礎來發展這項業務。

So we're very comfortable with our starting position.

所以我們對我們的起始位置非常滿意。

That means that we may add some geographic coverage, could add technology components in there.

這意味著我們可能會增加一些地理覆蓋範圍，並可以在其中添加技術組件。

But I also say that we -- to think that we would do a bigger acquisition, we're not going to do that.

但我也說過，我們不會那麼做，因為我們不會進行更大規模的收購。

For the very simple reason, we need to deliver on the ones we've done.

原因很簡單，我們需要履行我們已經完成的義務。

So I think we need to show that we can create the value for the shareholders and strengthening the company with the investments we've done.

因此我認為我們需要證明我們能夠透過所做的投資為股東創造價值並增強公司實力。

So we have a lot of work to do that before I would even remotely think about that question.

因此，在我真正考慮這個問題之前，我們還有很多工作要做。

So that's not part of the way we work.

所以這不是我們的工作方式。

What we are focusing on the -- we're, of course, always in the M&A market, but it's going to be the smaller add-on, bolt-ons, geographic expansions.

我們關注的是——當然，我們一直都在併購市場，但這將是規模較小的附加、附加功能和地理擴張。

That's what we will be focusing on.

這也就是我們將要關注的重點。

Jakob Bluestone, Exane BNP.

Jakob Bluestone，Exane BNP 分析師。

Thanks, Daniel.

謝謝，丹尼爾。

Hopefully, you can hear me okay.

希望您能聽到我的話。

I appreciate you haven't guided specifically for 2025.

我很感激你沒有針對 2025 年做出具體指導。

And I presume that reflects some of the broader geopolitical uncertainties.

我認為這反映了一些更廣泛的地緣政治不確定性。

But I was just hoping you could maybe give us a little bit of qualitative color around some of the puts and takes for revenues and margins.

但我只是希望您能為我們提供一些有關收入和利潤的定性資訊。

You've obviously mentioned potential risks around tariffs and market growth.

您顯然提到了關稅和市場成長方面的潛在風險。

Are there any other things that we should bear in mind for revenues?

對於收入我們還有什麼需要注意的嗎？

So for example, the fact you had a number of one-offs in '24.

舉個例子，事實上你在 24 年就發生過多次一次性事件。

And then at the margin level, can you maybe just help us understand do you see your margins and broader cost control, does that -- you had your big cost savings in '24 as you cut back as revenues were under pressure.

然後在利潤率水平上，您能否幫助我們了解您的利潤率和更廣泛的成本控制情況，由於收入面臨壓力，您削減了成本，因此在 24 年您是否實現了大幅成本節約。

Does some of that going to reverse?

其中的一些會逆轉嗎？

So could we start to see some margin pressure coming as you restart paying people more bonuses again, maybe some of the mix is a little bit different as places like India start to grow again.

因此，當你重新開始向員工支付更多獎金時，我們是否會開始看到一些利潤壓力？

So just sort of interested on anything you can say qualitatively on '25.

因此，我對您能就‘25’定性地談論的任何事都很感興趣。

Thank you.

謝謝。

You start on top line, and I can walk down the margins and costs.

您從營收開始，我可以降低利潤和成本。

Yeah.

是的。

I think what we see we come out of a period where '23, '24.

我認為，我們所看到的是我們走出了 23、24 時期。

I think we had, call it, almost two years of continuously falling sales.

我想，我們的銷售額已經連續下滑了將近兩年。

What we see is a much more stabilizing outlook.

我們看到的前景更加穩定。

So that trend of falling sales feels like we -- it's always dangerous to say that everything has changed, but at least we get more comfortable in the outlook of this stabilizing and actually returning to some more historic patterns.

因此，銷售額下降的趨勢讓我們感覺——說一切都發生了變化總是很危險的，但至少我們對這種穩定和實際上回歸到一些更具歷史意義的模式的前景更加放心。

So I feel on the sales side, at least what we can see is a more positive outlook than we've seen the quarters before.

因此，我認為在銷售方面，至少我們可以看到比前幾季更積極的前景。

So in that sense, we've gotten more positive and what's further giving that reason for positive is actually that the US is returning to stronger growth.

因此從這個意義上來說，我們變得更加積極，而進一步給出積極理由的實際上是美國正在恢復更強勁的成長。

The numbers don't focus on the quarter or year-over-year increase in North America because that's from a very depressed level in the year before.

這些數字並不關注北美地區的季度或同比增長，因為這是前一年非常低迷的水平。

But think about it much more as we're seeing a broader-based recovery in North America.

但當我們看見北美地區更廣泛的經濟復甦時，請多加思考。

It's not only one contract, it's actually broader.

這不僅僅是一份合同，它的範圍實際上更廣泛。

And when we start to see that with the front runner characteristics of the North American market, they were the first to really deploy 5G, then the other markets came.

當我們開始看到北美市場具有領先者的特徵時，他們率先真正部署了 5G，然後其他市場也跟上了。

It gives us the comfort that the market outlook is stabilizing.

市場前景正在趨於穩定，這讓我們感到欣慰。

I think it's leaving the last few quarters.

我認為它即將在最後幾季出現。

So we see that to be a solid indication that we are in a good spot.

因此，我們認為這是一個有力的跡象，表明我們處於良好狀態。

Then globally, what we have done, I would say, over the past few years is actually to reduce the sensitivity to geographic mix.

那麼從全球來看，我想說，過去幾年我們所做的其實就是降低對地理組合的敏感度。

So we have much less exposure to different regions growing differently.

因此，我們對不同地區不同成長方式的接觸較少。

What may actually impact more on margins is the amount of rollout.

實際上對利潤率影響更大的可能是推出的數量。

If we have a large amount of rollout, it actually puts a bit of pressure on the margins.

如果我們有大量的產品推出，這實際上會給利潤帶來一些壓力。

And that's more important.

這更為重要。

And when you think about the future, we're probably going to see the AT&T contract move into more of rollouts and swap-outs that we saw in India the year before, et cetera.

當你思考未來時，我們可能會看到 AT&T 的合約轉向更多的推出和替換，就像我們前一年在印度看到的那樣，等等。

That may be, call it, impacting more than necessarily the sales mix.

這可能對銷售組合產生一定的影響。

But if you look the US, it used to be or has almost always in our industry been a front market coming back to growth and the broad-based growth, we see Europe coming back to a bit of growth.

但如果你看看美國，它曾經或幾乎一直是我們行業的前沿市場，正在恢復成長和廣泛的成長，我們看到歐洲正在恢復一點成長。

It's going to be a bit choppy.

將會有點不平穩。

It always varies by quarter, but at least it's getting more positive.

它總是每個季度都有所不同，但至少它變得更加積極了。

We see Asia in the same way.

我們以同樣的方式看待亞洲。

So the market is shaping up to be relatively -- it's improving and stabilizing.

因此，市場正在相對改善和穩定。

Yeah.

是的。

And we are still in a downward trend in outside of US and Europe.

在美國和歐洲以外的地區，我們仍然處於下降趨勢。

And when that will we see, as we mentioned, in Africa where they are pretty hard hit by geopolitics and the difficulties they see, so -- and the competition in Latin America.

正如我們所提到的，我們什麼時候會看到這一點，在非洲，他們受到地緣政治的嚴重打擊，面臨困難，以及拉丁美洲的競爭。

So it is hard to see where are they, where is the trajectory turning there, so to say.

因此很難看清它們在哪裡，軌跡在哪裡轉向。

And when it comes to margins, I think we mentioned it, there will be a bit of mix on the margin.

至於利潤，我想我們有提到過，利潤上會有一些混合。

So there could be some pressure, not substantial, but holding us back somewhat.

因此可能會存在一些壓力，雖然不是實質的，但會在某種程度上阻礙我們前進。

And on the cost side, I think coming out of the year here in '24, somewhat elevated bonus levels.

而在成本方面，我認為從 24 年開始，獎金水準會有所提高。

But going back a couple of years, you could argue that '23 was really a low year compared to the historical average.

但回顧過去幾年，你可能會說，與歷史平均相比，23 年確實是較低的一年。

So looking into '25 for OpEx, that should be similar levels because we have an underlying cost inflation hurting OpEx and of course cost of goods sold as well.

因此，展望 25 年的營運支出，這應該是相似的水平，因為我們的潛在成本通膨損害了營運支出，當然也損害了銷售成本。

But we are continuously working with the cost reductions and as we mentioned there in the outlook on the restructuring, they will be maintained on a higher level to mitigate some of this cost inflation pressure that we still see.

但我們一直在努力降低成本，正如我們在重組展望中所提到的，成本將保持在較高水平，以減輕我們仍然看到的一些成本通膨壓力。

Andreas Joelsson, Carnegie.

卡內基的安德烈亞斯‧喬爾森 (Andreas Joelsson)。

Good morning, everyone.

大家早安。

I just like to go back to Daniel's question on capital allocation, if I may.

如果可以的話，我只是想回到丹尼爾關於資本配置的問題。

And this is just so we understand everything, everyone.

這樣我們才能理解一切，理解每個人。

As Daniel said, you have a strong cash position, you will have proceeds, you will have free cash flow also for 2025, I guess, given that you see a stabilizing outlook.

正如丹尼爾所說，你擁有強大的現金頭寸，你將獲得收益，我想，如果你看到穩定的前景，到 2025 年，你也會擁有自由現金流。

And just from a philosophical way, what is the argument for a company like Ericsson to have to have a net cash position?

那麼僅從哲學角度來看，愛立信這樣的公司必須擁有淨現金狀況的理由是什麼？

I understand you have had it historically as well, but what is the reasoning behind that, if I may?

我知道你以前也遇過這種情況，但如果可以的話，背後的原因是什麼？

Thanks.

謝謝。

I think it is our firm commitment to really ensure that we have capacity to do the investments in R&D over time.

我認為我們堅定地致力於確保我們有能力長期進行研發投資。

I think that it has been the leading star -- guiding star for the company for quite some years.

我認為，多年來它一直是公司的領導者——指路明燈。

And I think we also have -- if we go long back into history, felt that has been hurting our ability to invest when having not the right cash position, so to say.

而且我認為，如果我們回顧歷史，就會發現當我們的現金狀況不佳時，我們的投資能力就會受到損害。

So I think that is, call it, a bit of conservatism on that end.

所以我認為，從這個意義上來說，這就是一種保守主義。

But I think coming through 2025 here, we will continuously evolve and assess what is the right capital structure.

但我認為，到了 2025 年，我們將持續發展和評估正確的資本結構。

And of course, start a discussion internally together with the Board, and then, at that -- at the later stage and externally also communicate how we look upon this.

當然，我們會與董事會一起在內部展開討論，然後在後期向外部傳達我們對此的看法。

One philosophical thing, Andreas, that we very rarely talk about but actually, our customers care a bit.

安德烈亞斯，有一個哲學問題我們很少談論，但實際上，我們的客戶有點在乎。

They typically make 10 year commitments when they put our networks in operation.

在將我們的網路投入運作時，他們通常會做出 10 年的承諾。

So they would prefer that we are solid from a financial perspective so they can comfortably make that commitment, right?

所以他們更希望我們的財務狀況穩健，這樣他們才能安心地做出承諾，對嗎？

So to avoid to have that discussions and customer interactions, it's better to be maybe a bit conservative as Lars said on the capital.

因此，為了避免進行此類討論和與客戶互動，最好採取一些保守的做法，正如拉爾斯在資本上所說的那樣。

We talk a little bit less about that, but I think that's been a factor.

我們很少談論這個，但我認為這是一個因素。

And here, I think it's going to take some time and has taken time for the customers to realize that we are increasingly becoming a software business.

在這裡，我認為這將需要一些時間，而且客戶也已經花了一些時間來認識到我們正日益成為軟體企業。

When we were -- if you go back 15 years, we were much more hardware-centric.

當我們——如果你回顧 15 年前，我們更加以硬體為中心。

And then, of course, it was a bigger question for the customers.

當然，這對顧客來說是一個更大的問題。

As you move into becoming a software vendor, I think that capital -- I mean, the working capital becomes less and less and less.

當你成為軟體供應商時，我認為資本——我的意思是營運資本會越來越少。

So I do think that that's going to change.

因此我確實認為這種情況將會改變。

But so far, that's been one of the things that's actually been important in order to capture customers.

但到目前為止，這實際上是吸引客戶的重要因素之一。

And we come from a spot in 2017 when this was a topic in every customer interaction, hasn't been since then.

2017 年，這曾是每次客戶互動中的一個話題，從那時起就再也沒有出現過。

But every customer I met were focusing on Ericsson going to stay alive or you're going to turn around, et cetera.

但我遇到的每一位客戶都關心愛立信能否生存下來，或者能否扭虧為盈，等等。

That's not the question anymore, but we want to also be a bit prudent in that perspective.

這不再是一個問題，但是從這個角度來看，我們也想謹慎一點。

Sandeep Deshpande, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的 Sandeep Deshpande。

Yeah.

是的。

Hi, I have a quick question, Börje, about you talked about the stabilizing end market and particularly North America, but is it the share gains that is causing the improvement in the North American market?

你好，我有一個簡單的問題，Börje，你談到了穩定的終端市場，特別是北美市場，但是是份額的成長導致了北美市場的改善嗎？

Or is it the 5G Advanced?

還是5G Advanced？

What is the next product to drive the growth from here given that 5G has been rolled out in the US at this point and somewhat in other markets, clearly, not as much as in the US?

鑑於 5G 目前已在美國推出，而在其他市場也有所推廣，但顯然不如美國那麼火爆，下一個推動成長的產品是什麼？

But the other part of the question is do you need 6G to happen anytime soon?

但問題的另一部分是您是否需要 6G 盡快實現？

And what is the timing of 6G?

6G的時機又在哪裡？

So what I'm trying to understand is timing of new product to drive this continuing growth that you've seen in the second half of this year, or will we see a situation where in the second half of this year when the comps become more difficult, and the growth suddenly weakens again?

所以，我想了解的是，新產品的推出時機是否會推動今年下半年持續的成長，或者我們會看到這樣一種情況：今年下半年，當同店銷售變得更加困難時，成長會突然再次減弱？

Well, first of all, I think 2023 was a very low year.

嗯，首先，我認為 2023 年是低迷的一年。

So if you look at the percentage growth in North America, it's actually -- I wouldn't focus on that.

所以如果你看看北美的百分比成長，實際上——我不會關注這一點。

That's not going to be the predictive power going forward, right?

這不會成為未來的預測能力，對嗎？

And our market is not that type of high growth that we saw in Q4.

我們的市場並沒有像第四季那樣實現高成長。

But if you look going forward, and if you actually look a little bit and dissect Q4 a bit, what you see is, of course, that a part of the increase in North America comes from the market share gain from that big contract.

但如果你展望未來，如果你實際觀察並分析第四季度，你會發現，北美市場的部分成長當然來自於那份大合約所帶來的市佔率成長。

No doubt about that.

毫無疑問。

That's an important driver.

這是一個重要的驅動因素。

That moved into deliveries during the second part of the year.

今年下半年就開始交付了。

We started some in Q2, but in reality, it was second part of the year.

我們在第二季開始了一些工作，但實際上，那是在今年下半年。

So that, of course, helped us.

所以這當然對我們有幫助。

But as I said, it's also a broader base recovery.

但正如我所說，這也是一次更廣泛的基礎復甦。

And then you start to say, why is that happening?

然後你開始說，為什麼會發生這種事？

Well, first of all, 5G has not been built out.

首先，5G還沒建成。

5G is at the early stages still.

5G仍處於早期階段。

So if you take the North American market, 5G standalone is not rolled out.

因此，如果你以北美市場為例，5G獨立網路尚未推出。

I think you probably live in London.

我想你可能住在倫敦。

London, I mean, that in Europe, it's very limited build out.

倫敦，我的意思是，在歐洲，其建設非常有限。

5G is hardly built out.

5G尚未建成。

Most of the time when you get a 5G icon on your phone, you're basically on dynamic spectrum sharing using a 4G spectrum.

大多數情況下，當您的手機上出現 5G 圖示時，您基本上是在使用 4G 頻譜進行動態頻譜共享。

So 5G has not been built-out.

所以5G還沒有建設。

We're still very early in that build-out.

我們仍處於該建設的早期階段。

That's what we're starting to see in North America.

這就是我們在北美開始看到的情況。

The 5G -- the demand for 5G comes from growing 5G traffic, and we're still early in that build out.

5G—對 5G 的需求來自於不斷增長的 5G 流量，而我們仍處於建設的早期階段。

So I actually -- I don't know if we have not maybe been clear on this historically, but it's actually a low percentage that's been built out for -- and to have 5G, you need to build out mid-band.

所以實際上——我不知道我們是否從歷史上看對這一點沒有搞清楚，但實際上建設的比例很低——而要擁有 5G，就需要建設中頻段。

That's very limited build-out to be honest.

說實話，這是非常有限的。

So we are still very early in the 5G build-out cycle.

因此，我們仍處於 5G 建設週期的早期階段。

And if you look at what you would expect in the future, you should expect that 5G will have more base stations in reality than the 4G network because it's at higher frequency, so you're going to need a denser grid.

如果你展望未來，你會發現 5G 實際上會比 4G 網路擁有更多的基地台，因為它的頻率更高，所以需要更密集的網格。

So if we're going to get the full benefit of 5G with the low latency, the high performance, the ability to actually have many users in one cell site, we need to see much more build-out.

因此，如果我們要充分利用 5G 的全部優勢，即低延遲、高效能以及在一個基地台中容納許多用戶的能力，我們就需要看到更多的建設。

And we're actually very early in that.

事實上，我們才剛開始這項工作。

So I think the notion -- that new growth, it actually drives from the growth in traffic in the underlying traffic.

所以我認為，新的成長實際上是由基礎流量的成長所推動的。

And that's migrating from 4G over to 5G.

這就是從 4G 到 5G 的遷移。

And you will see changing nature on the 5G from consumer applications, basic mobile broadband, download a video or stream music into much more advanced applications, voice as an operating interface.

你會看到 5G 的本質變化，從消費者應用程式、基本的行動寬頻、下載影片或串流音樂到更高級的應用程序，以語音作為操作介面。

You're going to see AI traffic, and all of that will start to drive traffic in the new way.

你將會看到人工智慧流量，所有這些都將開始以新的方式推動流量。

That's why you see us introduce new type of products, new type of Massive MIMOs, but it's not saying that it has to be a new generation or anything.

這就是為什麼你會看到我們推出新型產品、新型 Massive MIMO，但這並不是說它必須是新一代產品或其他什麼。

It's actually introducing, call it, improved and strengthened products in the portfolio that improved energy efficiency, but also sell edge performance, for example.

它實際上正在推出所謂的產品組合中的改進和強化產品，以提高能源效率，同時也銷售優勢性能。

Can I touch on 6G, which is a very good question?

我可以談談 6G 嗎？

It populates often.

它經常出現。

I mean, 6G, if you think about it as a technology, probably going to get introduced 2030.

我的意思是，如果你將 6G 視為一項技術，它可能會在 2030 年推出。

It's something on that time frame.

這是那個時間範圍內的事。

But what's more important is 6G is actually an evolution of 5G.

但更重要的是，6G其實是5G的演進。

So we should think of 6G not as a new type of a generation where you upgraded from 3G to 4G or 4G to 5G.

因此，我們不應將 6G 視為從 3G 升級到 4G 或從 4G 升級到 5G 的新一代技術。

It was kind of a -- you needed also to upgrade the whole network.

這有點像——你還需要升級整個網路。

Well, the 5G and 5G Advanced even more so will be cloud-based.

嗯，5G 和 5G Advanced 將更多地基於雲端。

You will have a new type of principles be structured in a horizontal way, and 6G will be more of an evolution on that.

你將會擁有一種以水平方式建構的新型原則，而 6G 將更多地在此基礎上演變。

So if you're going to move into 6G, you actually need to have the 5G network and the architecture of 5G built out already.

因此，如果要進入 6G，您實際上需要已經建置了 5G 網路和 5G 架構。

Then you can benefit from adding new frequencies, new capabilities that 6G will give.

然後，您可以從新增 6G 提供的新頻率和新功能中受益。

So I encourage you not to think of 6G as a normal new generation.

所以我鼓勵你不要將 6G 視為普通的新一代。

It's actually more of energy, call it, generation.

實際上，它更多的是一種能量，可以稱之為發電。

So it's going to change the nature of the industry.

所以這將改變這個行業的本質。

And I think this is important when we think about the horizontalization, will actually allow our customers, the operator not to have these cycles in investments as much -- much more smoother investments.

我認為，當我們考慮水平化時，這一點很重要，它實際上可以讓我們的客戶、營運商避免在投資中出現這些週期——投資更加平穩。

But that means for us also, we are not going to see those cycles in the future, much more smoother based on the development of the demands of the network, call it, traffic volume and type of traffic.

但對我們來說，這也意味著，我們將來不會看到這些週期，而是根據網路需求、流量和流量類型的發展，將會更加平穩。

So I think we're entering a new phase here where our customers will look different, we will look different.

所以我認為我們正在進入一個新階段，我們的客戶看起來會有所不同，我們看起來也會有所不同。

But I think that actually for us is a positive with less hardware components, more software content on our sales.

但我認為，對我們來說，這實際上是一件好事，因為硬體組件減少了，銷售中的軟體內容增加了。

Joachim Gunell, DNB Markets.

Joachim Gunell，DNB Markets。

Thank you and good morning.

謝謝你，早安。

So in 2024, I mean, the progress in networks has really stolen the attention here and there's been a stellar performance.

所以在 2024 年，網路的進步確實引起了人們的注意，而且表現非常出色。

But on cloud software services here, I mean even including the IPR catch-up payments, the margin levels here on operating profit level has been fairly flattish.

但就這裡的雲端軟體服務而言，即使包括智慧財產權補繳費用，這裡的營業利潤水準也相當平穩。

So can you comment a bit on what you want to see in order to improve this trend going forward?

那麼，您能否稍微評論一下您希望看到什麼以便在未來改善這一趨勢？

And in relation to the more long-term 15% EBITA target for the group, where do you envision Cloud Software and Services margins be in order to deliver on that?

而關於集團的長期 15% EBITA 目標，您預期雲端軟體和服務的利潤率應該是多少才能實現這一目標？

Well, I think when it comes to cloud software, we see actually a good underlying improvement.

嗯，我認為當談到雲端軟體時，我們實際上看到了良好的潛在改進。

It doesn't have at all the same swings that you have in the network business, which is quite different.

它與網路業務中出現的波動完全不同，這是完全不同的。

That's more of a -- you have the whole service component into that, et cetera, as well, which is quite a different margin profile on that.

這更像是——你將整個服務組件融入其中，等等，這是相當不同的利潤概況。

It requires what we have done there, continued commercial discipline also driving the cost efficiency and the whole delivery that we have in Cloud Software and Services.

它需要我們在那裡所做的工作，持續的商業紀律也推動我們在雲端軟體和服務方面的成本效率和整體交付。

But also, to improve margins further going forward and increase this pace, we need to continue to drive also topline here and start thinking on how do we address growth areas within the segments where we are active there.

但同時，為了進一步提高利潤率並加快這一速度，我們需要繼續推動這裡的營收成長，並開始思考如何解決我們活躍的細分市場中的成長領域。

And that is a work that we are going into now.

這就是我們現在要進行的工作。

So that would be, so to say, the add-on from the current strategy going forward.

可以這麼說，這就是當前策略向前發展的附加部分。

I think that there are good plans and good hard work in that to make that happen, and we should see some signs of that already now in '25, I believe.

我認為，為了實現這一目標，我們有良好的計劃，也付出了艱苦的努力，我相信，我們在 2025 年就已經能看到一些跡象了。

But also I think what they have done also is to really prioritize different parts of the group and reduced costs in some other areas really to make sure that we end up in the right cost balance and cost levels in different parts within Cloud Software and Services.

但我也認為，他們所做的也是真正優先考慮集團的不同部分，並降低其他一些領域的成本，以確保我們最終在雲端軟體和服務的不同部分實現正確的成本平衡和成本水平。

So they should be able to gradually continue this EBITA margin improvement journey and to start getting towards more in the mid long-term double-digit level here.

因此，他們應該能夠逐步繼續提高 EBITA 利潤率，並開始向中長期兩位數的水平邁進。

Thanks everyone for joining.

感謝大家的加入。

That now concludes the Q&A session.

問答環節到此結束。

Thank you.

謝謝。