日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2024 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Hello. I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holding. Welcome to our third-quarter 2024 earnings release. Thank you for attending our second consecutive typhoon holiday earnings release. Please refer to our Safe Harbor notice on page 2.

你好。我是日月光科技控股有限公司投資者關係主管 Ken Hsiang。歡迎閱讀我們的 2024 年第三季財報發布。感謝您連續第二次參加我們的颱風假期收益發布。請參閱第 2 頁的安全港通知。

All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation in this event. If participants do not consent, please disconnect at this time. I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements.

所有參與者同意透過參與本次活動來傳播他們的聲音和問題。如果參與者不同意，請此時斷開連線。我想提醒大家，接下來的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。

These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk, and our actual results may differ materially. For the purposes of this presentation, dollar figures are generally stated in New Taiwan unless otherwise indicated.

這些前瞻性陳述面臨高度風險，我們的實際結果可能有重大差異。出於本演示的目的，除非另有說明，美元數字通常以新台灣為單位。

As a Taiwan-based company, our financial information is presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS. Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP.

身為台灣公司，我們的財務資料依照台灣國際財務報告準則呈報。使用台灣國際財務報告準則所呈現的結果可能與使用其他會計準則呈現的結果有重大差異，包括我們的子公司使用中國公認會計準則呈現的結果。

I'm joined today by Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's presentation, I will be going over the financial results and company outlook. Joseph will then be available to take your questions during the Q&A session that follows. We are altering our Q&A format slightly. During the Q&A session, I will be moderating, receiving, and clarifying each question, and repeating your questions to Joseph. With that, let's get started.

今天我們的財務長 Joseph Tung 也加入了我的行列。在今天的演講中，我將回顧財務表現和公司前景。約瑟夫將在接下來的問答環節回答您的問題。我們正在稍微改變我們的問答格式。在問答環節，我將主持、接收和澄清每個問題，並向約瑟夫重複您的問題。就這樣，我們開始吧。

The third-quarter ATM seasonality came in slightly better than originally anticipated. The pickups were mostly driven by strength in leading-edge advanced packaging and the seasonal ramps of some communications devices. Our overall equipment utilization was between 65% to 70%.

第三季 ATM 季節性略好於最初預期。這些回升主要是由領先的先進封裝的實力和一些通訊設備的季節性成長所推動的。我們的整體設備利用率在 65% 至 70% 之間。

For our EMS business, in the third quarter, demand for our services was also slightly ahead of our initial expectations. However, the higher demand was most likely attributable to an earlier seasonality. Please turn to page 3, where you will find our third-quarter consolidated results.

對於我們的 EMS 業務，第三季對我們服務的需求也略高於我們最初的預期。然而，需求增加很可能是由於季節性較早造成的。請翻到第 3 頁，您可以在其中找到我們第三季的綜合業績。

For the third quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of $2.17 and basic EPS of $2.24. Consolidated net revenues increased 14% sequentially and 4% year over year. We had a gross profit of $26.4 billion with a gross margin of 16.5%. Our gross margin improved by 0.1 percentage points sequentially and 0.3 percentage points year over year.

第三季度，我們的完全稀釋每股收益為 2.17 美元，基本每股收益為 2.24 美元。合併淨收入較上季成長 14%，較去年同期成長 4%。我們的毛利為 264 億美元，毛利率為 16.5%。我們的毛利率較上月提高了 0.1 個百分點，較去年同期提高了 0.3 個百分點。

The sequential improvement in margin is principally due to improved operating leverage offset by higher EMS product mix. Our operating expenses increased by $0.9 billion sequentially and by $1.4 billion annually. The sequential increase in operating expenses are primarily due to higher labor, bonus-related expenses, and other administrative expenses.

利潤率的連續改善主要是由於營運槓桿的改善被更高的 EMS 產品組合所抵消。我們的營運費用較上季增加 9 億美元，每年增加 14 億美元。營業費用較上月增加主要是因為人工、獎金相關費用和其他管理費用增加。

The year-over-year increase in operating expenses is primarily attributable to continued R&D staff-up and other labor-related costs. Our operating expense percentage came down by 0.7 percentage points to 9.3% sequentially and increased by 0.5 percentage points year over year. The sequential decline in operating expenses is attributable to higher operating leverage due to higher loading levels.

營業費用年增主要歸因於研發人員的持續增加和其他勞動力相關成本。營業費用佔月減 0.7 個百分點至 9.3%，較去年同期上升 0.5 個百分點。營運費用環比下降是由於負載水準提高導致營運槓桿增加。

The annual increase was also related to higher R&D staff-up for both ATM and EMS, overseas expansion, and higher incentive stock options and bonus expenses. Operating profit was $11.5 billion, up $2.5 billion sequentially and $0.1 billion year over year. Operating margin increased 0.8 percentage points sequentially and declined 0.2 percentage points year over year.

年度成長也與 ATM 和 EMS 研發人員的增加、海外擴張以及激勵性股票選擇權和獎金費用的增加有關。營業利潤為 115 億美元，季增 25 億美元，年增 1 億美元。營業利益率較上季成長 0.8 個百分點，較去年同期下降 0.2 個百分點。

During the quarter, we had a net non-operating gain of $0.8 billion. Our non-operating gain for the quarter primarily consists of net foreign exchange hedging activities, profits from associates, and other non-operating income, offset in part by net interest expense of $1.3 billion.

本季度，我們的非經營性淨收益為 8 億美元。我們本季的非營業收益主要包括淨外匯對沖活動、聯營公司利潤和其他非營業收入，部分被 13 億美元的淨利息支出所抵銷。

Tax expense for the quarter was $2.1 billion. Our effective tax rate for the quarter was 16%. The effective tax rate during the quarter was lower primarily because of tax impacts of foreign currency fluctuations. We continue to expect an ongoing annual effective tax rate of approximately 20.5%.

該季度的稅費為 21 億美元。我們本季的有效稅率為 16%。本季的有效稅率較低，主要是由於外幣波動的稅收影響。我們繼續預計年度有效稅率約為 20.5%。

Net income for the quarter was $9.7 billion, representing an increase of $1.9 billion sequentially and $0.9 billion year over year. The NT dollar was relatively steady during the third quarter. depreciating 0.3% against the US dollar sequentially while depreciating 2.7% annually.

該季度淨利潤為 97 億美元，比上一季增加 19 億美元，比去年同期增加 9 億美元。第三季新台幣相對穩定。兌美元季減0.3%，每年貶值2.7%。

From a sequential perspective, we estimate the NT dollar depreciation had less than a 0.1-percentage-point positive impact to the company's gross and operating margins. While from an annual perspective, we estimate the NT dollar depreciation had a 0.7-percentage-point positive impact to the company's gross and operating margins.

從環比來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對公司毛利率和營業利益率的正面影響不到0.1個百分點。而從年度角度來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對公司的毛利率和營業利益率有0.7個百分點的正面影響。

On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items without the inclusion of PPA-related expenses. Consolidated gross profit, excluding PPA expenses, would be $27.4 billion, with 17.1% gross margin. Operating profit would be $12.7 billion with an operating margin of 7.9%. Net profit would be $10.8 billion with a net margin of 6.8%. Basic EPS, excluding PPA expenses, would be $2.51.

在頁面底部，我們提供了關鍵的損益行項目，不包括與購電協議相關的費用。不包括購電協議費用的綜合毛利將為 274 億美元，毛利率為 17.1%。營業利益將為 127 億美元，營業利益率為 7.9%。淨利潤為 108 億美元，淨利潤率為 6.8%。基本每股收益（不包括 PPA 費用）為 2.51 美元。

On page 4 is a graphical presentation of our consolidated financial performance. Since the start of 2023, you will see here a trough-ish but gradually improving environment for both our ATM and EMS businesses. On a year-over-year basis, gross margins have been gradually improving.

第 4 頁是我們綜合財務績效的圖形展示。進入2023年以來，我們的ATM和EMS業務環境雖然處於低谷，但正在逐步改善。與去年同期相比，毛利率逐步提高。

On the operating margin front, as was stated earlier, operating expenses are increasing for expected ramps in leading-edge advanced packaging products and, to a lesser extent, offshore site expansion costs from our EMS businesses.

在營業利潤方面，如前所述，由於領先的先進封裝產品的預期成長，以及我們的 EMS 業務的離岸站點擴張成本，營業費用正在增加。

On page 5 is our ATM P&L. The ATM revenue reported here contains revenues eliminated at the holding company level related to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses. For the third quarter of 2024, revenues for our ATM business were $85.8 billion, up $8 billion from the previous quarter and up $2.1 billion from the same period last year. This represents a 10% increase sequentially and a 3% increase annually.

第 5 頁是我們的 ATM 損益表。此處報告的 ATM 收入包含在控股公司層級抵消的與我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易相關的收入。2024年第三季度，我們的ATM業務營收為858億美元，比上一季增加80億美元，比去年同期增加21億美元。這意味著環比增長 10%，每年增長 3%。

Gross profit for our ATM business was $19.8 billion, up $2.6 billion sequentially and up $1.2 billion year over year. Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 23.1%, up 1 percentage point sequentially and up 0.9 percentage points year over year.

我們的 ATM 業務毛利為 198 億美元，比上一季成長 26 億美元，比去年同期成長 12 億美元。ATM業務毛利率為23.1%，季增1個百分點，較去年同期上升0.9個百分點。

The sequential margin improvement was primarily related to higher equipment utilization, offset in part by higher raw material product mix and higher utility costs. We expect the higher raw material product mix environment to extend into the fourth quarter. The annual margin improvement is primarily the result of favorable foreign exchange and product mix.

連續利潤率的提高主要與設備利用率的提高有關，但部分被原材料產品組合的提高和公用事業成本的提高所抵消。我們預計較高的原料產品結構環境將延續到第四季。年度利潤率的提高主要歸功於有利的外匯和產品組合。

During the third quarter, operating expenses were $10.6 billion, up $0.6 billion sequentially and $0.8 billion year over year. The sequential increase in operating expenses was primarily driven by higher labor-related expenses, much of which is related to the staffing for leading-edge advanced packaging services.

第三季營運費用為 106 億美元，季增 6 億美元，年增 8 億美元。營運費用的環比增長主要是由於勞動力相關費用增加，其中大部分與領先的先進包裝服務的人員配置有關。

The annual operating expense increase was driven primarily by the continued scale-up of R&D labor and other labor-related expenses. Our operating expense percentage for the quarter was 12.3%, declining 0.5 percentage points sequentially but up 0.6 percentage points annually.

年度營業費用成長主要是由於研發勞動力和其他與勞動力相關的費用規模持續擴大所致。本季我們的營運費用百分比為 12.3%，季減 0.5 個百分點，但年增 0.6 個百分點。

Sequentially, our lower operating expense percentage was driven by higher loading and thus, higher operating leverage. While the annual increase was primarily due to labor ramp-ups preparing for higher leading-edge advanced packaging revenues.

隨後，我們較低的營運費用百分比是由更高的負載以及更高的營運槓桿推動的。年度成長主要是由於勞動力增加，為更高的領先先進封裝收入做準備。

During the third quarter, operating profit was $9.2 billion, representing an increase of $2 billion quarter over quarter and $0.4 billion year over year. Operating margin was 10.8%, increasing 1.5 percentage points sequentially and 0.3 percentage points year over year.

第三季營業利潤為 92 億美元，季增 20 億美元，年增 4 億美元。營業利益率為 10.8%，較上季上升 1.5 個百分點，較去年同期上升 0.3 個百分點。

For foreign exchange, we estimate the NT to US dollar exchange rate had a positive 0.1-percentage-point impact on our ATM sequential margins and a positive 1.3-percentage-point impact on a year-over-year basis. Without the impact of PPA-related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 24.1% and operating profit margin would be 12.1%.

對於外匯，我們估計新台幣兌美元匯率對我們的 ATM 連續利潤率產生了 0.1 個百分點的正面影響，與去年同期相比，產生了 1.3 個百分點的正面影響。如果不考慮與購電協議相關的折舊和攤銷的影響，ATM 毛利率將為 24.1%，營業利潤率為 12.1%。

On page 6, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L. As you can see here, we've generally seen a very gradual recovery when looking at revenues and margins from a year-over-year basis. On page 7 is our ATM revenue by the 3C market segments. You can see here a slight blip in regards to communications product seasonality. Otherwise, not much has changed during the current quarter. Our leading-edge advanced packaging services are in both our computing and communications segments.

在第 6 頁，您將找到我們 ATM 損益表的圖形表示。正如您在這裡所看到的，當我們從同比來看收入和利潤時，我們通常會看到非常緩慢的復甦。第 7 頁是我們以 3C 細分市場劃分的 ATM 收入。您可以在這裡看到通訊產品季節性方面的輕微波動。除此之外，本季沒有太大變化。我們領先的先進封裝服務涉及計算和通訊領域。

On page 8, you'll find our ATM revenue by service type. Here, you can see that our business, at least during the softer environment, is shifting towards more advanced services. The gray color represents both our advanced and leading-edge advanced services. We believe our strategies involved with growing our test business are paying off. As a percentage of ATM business, our test business is just under 16.5% total.

在第 8 頁，您可以按服務類型查看我們的 ATM 收入。在這裡，您可以看到我們的業務，至少在較軟的環境下，轉向更先進的服務。灰色代表了我們先進且領先的先進服務。我們相信，我們涉及發展測試業務的策略正在取得回報。我們的測試業務佔 ATM 業務的比例略低於 16.5%。

And though it may not be immediately visible here, our test business is actually significantly outgrowing our assembly business this year. Current year-to-date growth is 6% relative to 1% for our assembly business. We see growth momentum for our test business. Further, given that test follows assembly from a process flow perspective, we expect a more pronounced pickup for our test business during the fourth quarter.

儘管這裡可能不會立即可見，但今年我們的測試業務實際上大大超過了組裝業務。今年迄今的成長率為 6%，而我們的組裝業務的成長率為 1%。我們看到了測試業務的成長動能。此外，考慮到從流程的角度來看，測試是在組裝之後進行的，我們預計第四季度我們的測試業務將出現更明顯的回升。

On page 9, you can see the third-quarter results for our EMS business. During the quarter, EMS revenues were $75.4 billion, improving $12.5 billion or 20% sequentially and improving $4.4 billion or 6% year over year. The sequential and annual revenue improvements are primarily attributable to our customers' timing of this year's product manufacturing start. It is important to note here that this year's seasonality has moved earlier as compared to last year.

在第 9 頁，您可以看到我們 EMS 業務的第三季業績。本季度，EMS 營收為 754 億美元，季增 125 億美元，成長 20%，年增 44 億美元，成長 6%。連續和年度收入的成長主要歸因於我們的客戶今年產品製造開始的時間。值得注意的是，今年的季節性比去年提早。

Sequentially, our EMS business' gross margin declined 0.6 percentage points to 9%. This change was principally the result of product mix. Operating expenses within our EMS business was $4.3 billion, increasing $0.2 billion sequentially and $0.6 billion annually. The inclusion of our newly acquired subsidiary accounted for the majority of the annual increase.

隨後，我們的 EMS 業務毛利率下降了 0.6 個百分點至 9%。這種變化主要是產品組合的結果。我們的 EMS 業務營運支出為 43 億美元，季增 2 億美元，每年增加 6 億美元。我們新收購的子公司佔年度成長的大部分。

Our third-quarter operating expense percentage was 5.7%, down 0.8 percentage points sequentially and up 0.5 percentage points annually. The higher annual operating expense percentage was primarily related to overseas expansion expenses and integration expenses related to a newly consolidated subsidiary.

第三季營運費用率為 5.7%，季減 0.8 個百分點，較去年同期上升 0.5 個百分點。年度營運費用百分比較高主要與海外擴張費用和新合併子公司相關的整合費用有關。

Operating margin for the third quarter was 3.3%, improving 0.2 percentage points sequentially and declining 0.6 percentage points year over year, primarily due to higher operating leverage from the current quarter seasonality. On an annual basis, operating margin decline was due to higher overseas expansion costs, including the addition of a newly acquired subsidiary. Our EMS third-quarter operating profit was $2.5 billion, up $0.5 billion sequentially while down $0.3 billion annually.

第三季營業利益率為 3.3%，季增 0.2 個百分點，年減 0.6 個百分點，主要是因為本季季節性因素導致營業槓桿上升。以年度計算，營業利潤率下降是由於海外擴張成本上升，包括增加新收購的子公司。我們的 EMS 第三季營業利潤為 25 億美元，比上一季成長 5 億美元，而年減 3 億美元。

On the bottom of the page, you will find a graphical representation of our EMS revenue by application. The third-quarter segment shares of 2024 looks very similar to the third quarter last year, showing similar seasonality. The only more substantial difference has been an increase in the automotive segment as a result of increased overall automotive business.

在頁面底部，您將找到按應用程式劃分的 EMS 收入的圖形表示。2024 年第三季的細分市場佔有率看起來與去年第三季非常相似，表現出相似的季節性。唯一更實質的差異是由於整體汽車業務的增加而導致汽車領域的成長。

On page 10, you will find key line items from our balance sheet. At the end of the third quarter, we had cash, cash equivalents, and current financial assets of $78.4 billion. Our total interest-bearing debt increased by $29.3 billion to $213.2 billion. Total unused credit lines amounted to $361.3 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was $28.6 billion. Our net debt to equity this quarter was 0.41.

在第 10 頁，您將找到我們資產負債表中的關鍵行項目。截至第三季末，我們的現金、現金等價物及流動金融資產為 784 億美元。我們的有息債務總額增加了 293 億美元，達到 2,132 億美元。未使用的信貸額度總額達 3,613 億美元。我們本季的 EBITDA 為 286 億美元。本季我們的淨負債股本比為 0.41。

On page 11, you will find our equipment capital expenditures relative to our EBITDA. Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the third quarter and US dollars totaled $603 million, of which $312 million were used in packaging operations, $274 million in testing operations, $14 million in EMS operations, and $3 million in interconnect material operations and others.

在第 11 頁，您會發現我們的設備資本支出與 EBITDA 的關係。第三季機械設備資本支出及美元總計為6.03億美元，其中3.12億美元用於封裝業務，2.74億美元用於測試業務，1,400萬美元用於EMS業務，300萬美元用於互連材料業務及其他。

We are in the midst of a substantial pickup in our leading-edge advanced packaging revenues. As was stated in our second-quarter earnings release, we continue to expect at least a doubling of such revenues for the next fiscal year of 2025.

我們的領先先進封裝收入正處於大幅成長之中。正如我們在第二季財報中所述，我們仍然預計 2025 財年的此類收入將至少增加一倍。

We continue to see substantial growth opportunities related to packaging and testing for leading-edge products. These revenue opportunities are not only related to AI and high-performance computing, but also touch upon high-end networking and communications. As these high-end processes become more complex, this impacts our capital investment methodology in two major ways.

我們繼續看到與領先產品的封裝和測試相關的巨大成長機會。這些收入機會不僅與人工智慧和高效能運算有關，還涉及高端網路和通訊。隨著這些高端流程變得更加複雜，這從兩個主要方面影響我們的資本投資方法。

First, the time it takes to put in place our equipment extends. Advanced products have significantly more process steps, and each step has become more complicated. As a result, our capital expenditures will need to be made further ahead of anticipated revenues when compared to traditional ATM capital expenditures.

首先，我們的設備安裝到位所需的時間延長了。先進產品的製程步驟明顯增多，而且每個步驟都變得更加複雜。因此，與傳統 ATM 資本支出相比，我們的資本支出需要進一步提前於預期收入。

Second, because of the increasing precision necessary for leading-edge services, the cost of equipment has become more expensive. Relative to our traditional businesses, this increases our capital intensity per unit, along with our unit ASP. This is starting to play out in the current quarter. We are seeing an increased level of capital equipment investment to satisfy 2025 business.

其次，由於領先服務所需的精度不斷提高，設備成本變得更加昂貴。相對於我們的傳統業務，這增加了我們的單位資本強度以及單位平均售價。這種情況在本季開始顯現。我們看到資本設備投資水準不斷提高，以滿足 2025 年的業務需求。

As a result, we now project our annual machinery and equipment capital expenditures to end the year above our annual depreciation and amortization levels of USD1.9 billion. From a historical perspective, 2021 was the last year we spent more on machinery and equipment than our depreciation and amortization.

因此，我們現在預計到年底的年度機械和設備資本支出將高於 19 億美元的年度折舊和攤提水準。從歷史角度來看，2021年是我們在機械設備上的支出超過折舊和攤提的最後一年。

This inflection point not only represents ASE's belief in the revenue opportunities ahead; it also signifies a major step into the next evolution of packaging. For us, the leading-edge component is becoming more mainstream and significant in terms of size and scale. We expect this elevated rate of investment to stretch into next year as we prepare for services to be delivered during 2025 and beyond.

這一拐點不僅代表了日月光對未來收入機會的信心；它也標誌著包裝的下一次發展邁出了重要一步。對我們來說，領先的組件在尺寸和規模方面變得更加主流和重要。我們預計這種投資率的上升將持續到明年，因為我們正在為 2025 年及以後提供的服務做準備。

Looking into the fourth quarter from a business outlook perspective, we can separate our business into three separate service categories: leading-edge products, typically seasonal products, and everything else. Leading-edge is going gangbusters, whether it's AI, networking, or other products in the pipeline. The need for our advanced interconnect technologies and all its forms looks extremely promising.

從業務前景的角度來看第四季度，我們可以將我們的業務分為三個獨立的服務類別：前沿產品、通常季節性產品以及其他所有產品。無論是人工智慧、網路或其他正在研發的產品，尖端技術都將勢不可擋。對我們先進的互連技術及其所有形式的需求看起來非常有希望。

Seasonal products, such as communications and handset-related products, are going through its paces. Not really great, not really bad, and some devices doing better than others. It's kind of really neither here nor there. For everything else, there just isn't a lot of demand or optimism.

季節性產品，例如通訊和手機相關產品，正在經歷它的步伐。不是很好，也不是很差，有些設備比其他設備做得更好。它確實不在這裡也不在那裡。對於其他一切，需求或樂觀情緒並不高。

Recoveries related to general demand for this year have not really happened. The fourth-quarter pickup is not as strong as we would like it to be. But at least, we still see a pickup, albeit slight. From the expense perspective, there are three items impacting our expenses for the fourth quarter.

今年與整體需求相關的復甦並未真正發生。第四季的回升並不像我們希望的那麼強勁。但至少，我們仍然看到了回升，儘管幅度很小。從費用角度來看，有三個項目影響我們第四季的費用。

One, typhoon costs; even though our factories are still running such as today, typhoon holiday labor count as overtime hours for much of our direct labor. Two, utility costs; base utility rates were increased by Tai Power. The higher base rate went into effect mid-October coinciding with the end of summer rates. And three, a stronger NT dollar environment. With these impacts in place, we will attempt to keep our ATM fourth-quarter margins flattish.

一、颱風費用；儘管我們的工廠像今天一樣仍在運轉，但颱風假期勞動力對我們大部分的直接勞動力來說都算作加班時間。二、公用事業費用；台電提高了基本公用事業費率。較高的基本利率於 10 月中旬生效，恰逢夏季利率結束。第三，新台幣走強的環境。考慮到這些影響，我們將努力保持第四季 ATM 利潤率持平。

The environment for our EMS business appears to be a bit more challenging. As was mentioned in our second-quarter results, our EMS business appears to have an earlier manufacturing cycle or shifted seasonality. This, combined with lackluster general demand, is creating a declining fourth-quarter outlook. Given this unusual seasonality and the ongoing costs related to geographical rebalancing, we are expecting lower operating margins for the fourth quarter for our EMS business.

我們的 EMS 業務的環境似乎更具挑戰性。正如我們在第二季業績中提到的，我們的 EMS 業務似乎有較早的製造週期或季節性變化。再加上整體需求低迷，導致第四季前景下滑。鑑於這種不尋常的季節性以及與地理再平衡相關的持續成本，我們預計 EMS 業務第四季的營業利潤率將下降。

We would like to summarize our outlook for the fourth-quarter 2024 as follows. For our ATM business in NT dollar terms, our ATM fourth-quarter 2024 revenues should grow slightly quarter over quarter. Our ATM fourth-quarter gross margin should be flattish quarter over quarter.

我們對 2024 年第四季的展望總結如下。對於我們以新台幣計算的 ATM 業務，我們 2024 年第四季的 ATM 收入應該會較上季略有成長。我們的 ATM 第四季毛利率應該與上一季持平。

For our EMS business in NT dollar terms, our EMS fourth-quarter 2024 revenues should decline mid-single-digit quarter over quarter. Our EMS fourth-quarter 2024 operating margin should decline 1 percentage point quarter over quarter.

對於以新台幣計算的 EMS 業務，我們 2024 年第四季的 EMS 收入應會季減中個位數。我們的 EMS 2024 年第四季營業利潤率應較上季下降 1 個百分點。

In order to make all our hard-working analysts have fair opportunities to ask questions during our earnings call, we are adjusting our Q&A format slightly. During the Q&A session that follows, we would appreciate if questions can be kept concise and asked one at a time. Callers will be allowed to ask two questions per turn, but questions are asked one at a time.

為了讓我們所有辛勤工作的分析師在財報電話會議上有公平的機會提問，我們正在稍微調整我們的問答形式。在接下來的問答環節中，如果問題能夠保持簡潔並一次只問一個問題，我們將不勝感激。呼叫者每輪可以問兩個問題，但一次只問一個問題。

I will be receiving each question and repeating the asked question to Joseph. Again, we will be limiting the number of questions asked to two questions per turn but ask one at a time. Callers may return to the queue for additional questions. Thank you.

我將收到每個問題並向約瑟夫重複所提出的問題。同樣，我們將每輪提出的問題數量限制為兩個問題，但一次只問一個問題。來電者可以返回隊列詢問其他問題。謝謝。

(Operator Instructions) Sunny Lin, UBS.

（操作員指令）Sunny Lin，UBS。

Hi, could you hear me okay?

嗨，你聽得到我說話嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Thank you very much for taking my questions. So my first question is on your opportunity in leading-edge advanced packaging. As you said, you continue to raise CapEx fee share to support business into 2025.

非常感謝您回答我的問題。所以我的第一個問題是關於您在領先的先進封裝方面的機會。正如您所說，您將繼續提高資本支出費用份額，以支持業務直至 2025 年。

So any update that you could share with us on your revenue targets for 2025, whether it's going to be higher than the $1 billion target that you provided back in July? Yeah, that would be my first question.

那麼您可以與我們分享 2025 年收入目標的最新情況嗎？是的，這是我的第一個問題。

Sunny, so your question is related to our leading-edge advanced packaging targets for next year. Is that correct?

Sunny，所以你的問題與我們明年的領先先進封裝目標有關。這是正確的嗎？

That's right. Yeah.

這是正確的。是的。

Okay. I think we are seeing -- we're maintaining our view for this year. We continue to be ahead of our target of doubling our revenue from leading edge, both for packaging as well as test revenue.

好的。我認為我們正在看到——我們維持今年的觀點。我們繼續領先將領先優勢收入翻倍的目標，無論是封裝還是測試收入。

And going forward, I think we continue to see very, very strong demand coming in. As we are scrambling to increase our capacity, we do see a very healthy pickup next year in terms of leading edge. I think it's safe to say that we will be having bought over 10% of our revenue is not more likely to be at low teens of our overall ATM revenue coming from leading edge. (multiple speakers)

展望未來，我認為我們將繼續看到非常非常強勁的需求。當我們努力增加產能時，我們確實看到明年在領先優勢方面將出現非常健康的回升。我認為可以肯定地說，我們將購買超過 10% 的收入，而我們的 ATM 總收入中的 10% 以上不太可能來自領先優勢。（多個發言者）

Yeah. Well, so maybe -- sorry, just to be more specific, I think people maybe care more about if you will have any breakthrough in full-process CoWoS. TSMC is still very determined in expanding the chip-on-wafer capacity going to next year. And I think Amkor earlier this week also talked about for the full-process CoWoS. We are seeing some client-base expansion to the second and also the third clients.

是的。嗯，所以也許——抱歉，更具體地說，我認為人們可能更關心你在全流程 CoWoS 方面是否會取得任何突破。台積電明年擴大晶圓晶片產能的決心依然堅定。我認為 Amkor 本週稍早也談到了全流程 CoWoS。我們看到一些客戶群擴展到第二個和第三個客戶。

I understand, this year, you had very good pickup overall for leading-edge. But that's probably mostly coming from the outsourcing business from TSMC. And so I wonder going to next year, whether we should also expect some pickup into your own full-process CoWoS. Thank you very much.

據我了解，今年，你們在前沿方面總體取得了很好的進步。但這可能主要來自台積電的外包業務。所以我想知道明年我們是否也應該期待你們自己的全流程 CoWoS 有所提升。非常感謝。

Sunny, your question relates to the composition of our leading-edge events packaging revenues going into next year. Is that correct?

Sunny，您的問題涉及我們明年的前沿活動包裝收入的構成。這是正確的嗎？

Right. Thank you. Yeah.

正確的。謝謝。是的。

Well, I think TSMC's aggressive extension of their back-end or leading-edge back-end capacity is really a testament of a very, very strong demand coming in the next few years. And being the chosen partner of our customers as well as the foundry partner, I think we will definitely share that huge potential in front of us. We are making the necessary investment across the board, including 2.5D, including test.

嗯，我認為台積電積極擴展其後端或領先的後端產能確實證明了未來幾年的需求非常非常強勁。作為我們客戶選擇的合作夥伴以及代工夥伴，我認為我們一定會分享眼前的巨大潛力。我們正在全面進行必要的投資，包括2.5D，包括測試。

But the investment will be made or capacity increase will be made in line with our customer's requests and also all the economic parameters that we need to put in place to -- for consideration; what are the suitable capacity that we will be adding and where and when and how we'll be adding those capacity. Basically, it should be aligned with the customer's request.

但投資或產能增加將根據客戶的要求以及我們需要考慮的所有經濟參數進行；我們將增加哪些合適的容量，以及我們將在何處、何時以及如何增加這些容量。基本上，它應該與客戶的要求保持一致。

Does that answer your question?

這能回答你的問題嗎？

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Ken. Thank you, Joseph. Could I ask my second question?

是的。謝謝。謝謝你，肯。謝謝你，約瑟夫。我可以問第二個問題嗎？

That was your second question. Please return to the queue. Thank you.

這是你的第二個問題。請返回隊列。謝謝。

No problem. Thank you.

沒問題。謝謝。

Gokul Hariharan.

戈庫爾·哈里哈蘭。

Yeah, hi. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking the questions. My first question is, again, on the leading-edge advanced packaging. How do you characterize the relationship with TSMC on a, let's say, two- to three-year basis? I think next year, you're getting a lot of the outsourcing business, but they're also working with Amkor.

是的，嗨。午安.感謝您提出問題。我的第一個問題還是關於前沿的先進封裝。您如何描述與台積電的兩到三年關係？我認為明年，您將獲得大量外包業務，但他們也與 Amkor 合作。

I think they just announced the MOU signed with Amkor for the US capacity, I believe, from 2027. So if you think about next year and as well as maybe three to five years out, what portion of this leading-edge advanced packaging business will come from TSMC's outsourcing? And what portion of it would be coming from ASE's own efforts, kind of seeking out your own customers directly?

我認為他們剛剛宣布與 Amkor 簽署了關於美國產能的諒解備忘錄，我相信，從 2027 年開始。因此，如果您考慮明年以及三到五年後，這項領先的先進封裝業務的哪些部分將來自台積電的外包？其中哪一部分是來自 ASE 自己的努力，也就是直接尋找自己的客戶？

Hi, Gokul. So your question relates to our relationship with our foundry partners. Is that correct?

嗨，戈庫爾。所以你的問題牽涉到我們與代工夥伴的關係。這是正確的嗎？

Yeah. And also in relation to how the Amkor arrangement that they have also will work -- like, how you perceive that.

是的。而且也與他們的 Amkor 安排如何運作有關 - 就像您如何看待這一點。

Okay, in that context.

好吧，在這種情況下。

Yeah. I think we are partnering together to -- with our foundry partner to continue to expand our capacity to meet the growing demand. And it really depends on the -- there will be a natural division of works, where each partner will be focusing on what they do best and what makes the most economical sense for each.

是的。我認為我們正在與我們的代工合作夥伴合作，繼續擴大我們的產能，以滿足不斷增長的需求。這實際上取決於——會有一個自然的工作分工，每個合作夥伴都將專注於他們最擅長的事情以及對每個人來說最經濟的事情。

So as I pointed out, the capacity expansion that we were going to be making will be across the board, including all aspects of the whole process. But again, there will be priority allocation between different processes depending on the customer's request.

所以正如我所指出的，我們要做的產能擴張將是全面性的，包括整個流程的各個方面。但同樣，根據客戶的要求，不同流程之間會有優先分配。

In terms of Amkor, I think right now, we are really focusing on meeting the current demand. And we are scrambling to increase our capacity so as to meet the current strong demand. We're not particularly worrying -- at this point, worry about what kind of competition we may or may not have three years down the road. What we're busy on today is really focusing on meeting the current demand at this point.

就 Amkor 而言，我認為現在我們真正專注於滿足當前的需求。我們正在努力增加產能，以滿足當前的強勁需求。我們並不是特別擔心——在這一點上，擔心我們未來三年可能會或可能不會遇到什麼樣的競爭。我們今天的工作重點是滿足當前的需求。

Does that answer your question, Gokul?

這能回答你的問題嗎，Gokul？

Yeah, that's good. So second question is basically on the chip-on-wafer portion. Could you talk a little bit about whether you will have significant chip-on-wafer-related assembly next year? If it is happening, how big is it going to be of this low teens percentage of ATM revenue? Is it going to be quite significant, or is it going to be quite small next year?

是的，那很好。所以第二個問題基本上是關於晶圓晶片部分。您能否談談明年是否會有重要的晶圓晶片相關組裝？如果這種情況真的發生，ATM 收入中這十幾% 的比例將會有多大？明年它會非常重要，還是會很小？

So Gokul, you're asking about the composition of our leading-edge advanced revenues as it relates to the wafer attach portion, right?

那麼 Gokul，您是在問我們領先的先進收入的組成，因為它與晶圓連接部分相關，對嗎？

Chip-on-wafer portion, yes.

晶圓晶片部分，是的。

We don't use that term, but we do understand what you mean.

我們不使用這個術語，但我們確實理解您的意思。

As I mentioned, we will be investing in both -- in all aspects of the process, I think, including wafer -- chip-on-wafer as well as [on substrate] and testing as well. Again, it really depends on the economic benefits that we'll be looking at or considering to make the necessary or appropriate investment in terms of building these capacities. So --

正如我所提到的，我們將在製程的各個方面進行投資，我認為包括晶圓、晶圓上晶片以及[在基板上]和測試。同樣，這實際上取決於我們將考慮或考慮在建立這些能力方面進行必要或適當投資的經濟效益。所以--

Any strategy -- yeah. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Joseph.

任何策略——是的。對不起。繼續吧，約瑟夫。

I think the -- of course, the -- in terms of magnitude, there will be -- I think more will be on substrate as we see in the situation now. But the situation can be very, very dynamic. It depends on ourselves, our customers, and also our foundry partners, the progress in terms of developing these products or capacity. So we'll make the necessary adjustment as we go along.

我認為，當然，就規模而言，我認為，正如我們現在所看到的那樣，將會有更多的基礎。但情況可能非常非常動態。這取決於我們自己、我們的客戶以及我們的代工合作夥伴在開發這些產品或產能方面的進展。因此，我們將在進展過程中做出必要的調整。

Does that answer your question, Gokul?

這能回答你的問題嗎，Gokul？

Any chip-on-wafer is in your guidance for the low teens of ATM revenue?

您對 ATM 收入的指導是否有晶圓上晶片？

I guess, we'll allow this. But yeah, we would prefer you keep to the two-question limit at this point. But go ahead.

我想，我們會允許這樣做。但是，是的，我們希望您此時保持兩個問題的限制。但繼續吧。

Yeah. Just as a clarification, in your guidance of low teens, is any chip-on-wafer already included? Any meaningful revenue from chip-on-wafer already included, or the on-wafer-processing part already included?

是的。需要澄清的是，在您對青少年的指導中，是否已經包含了晶圓晶片？來自已包含的晶圓晶片或已包含的晶圓處理部分有任何有意義的收入嗎？

Yes, we will be having both FOCoS and FOCoS-Bridge, and kind of solutions under our mass production. And we are adding new capacity aligned with the customer demand.

是的，我們將同時擁有 FOCoS 和 FOCoS-Bridge，以及我們大量生產的解決方案。我們正在根據客戶需求增加新的產能。

Okay.

好的。

That will be part of the overall leading-edge-type revenue that we are going to have next year.

這將成為我們明年整體領先型收入的一部分。

Does that answer your question, Gokul?

這能回答你的問題嗎，Gokul？

Okay. Thanks.

好的。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

盧小龍，高盛。

Okay. Can you hear me?

好的。你聽得到我嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Okay. So for the $500 million revenue we generate from advanced packaging this year, how much is from the testing? Testing will account for 15%, 16% of your total ATM business. But for the advanced part, well, the advanced one, how much is from testing? And the ratio is going to change meaningfully for 2025, $1 billion revenue?

好的。那麼，今年我們從先進封裝中獲得的 5 億美元收入中，有多少是來自於測試呢？測試將佔您 ATM 總業務的 15%、16%。但對於高級部分，嗯，高級部分，有多少來自測試？到 2025 年，營收將達到 10 億美元，這比率會發生有意義的變化嗎？

Bruce, your question relates to the amount of testing within our total outlook of leading-edge advanced packaging services for next year. Is that right?

Bruce，您的問題涉及我們明年對領先先進封裝服務的整體展望中的測試量。是這樣嗎？

I mean, what's the ratio for --

我的意思是，比例是多少--

For this year or next year, please?

請問今年還是明年？

Both.

兩個都。

First of all, we are ahead of our schedule in terms of -- ahead of our plan in terms of doubling our leading-edge revenue. So it will be over $500 million. But at this point in time, we -- particularly for this year, we are basically focusing on building up the assembly capacity.

首先，我們在將領先收入翻倍方面提前了我們的計劃。所以它將超過 5 億美元。但目前，我們——尤其是今年，我們基本上專注於建立組裝能力。

So the test portion of the overall leading-edge revenue for this year will be relatively smaller. Next year, I think advanced testing will -- as Ken pointed out earlier on, we are seeing our investment in tests are starting to pay off [sales]. And we believe that the percentage will continue to rise into next year. And we are targeting a 15% -- anywhere from 15% to 20% of our leading-edge revenue coming from test.

所以今年整體前沿營收的測試部分會相對較小。明年，我認為高級測試將——正如肯早些時候指出的那樣，我們看到我們對測試的投資開始得到回報[銷售量]。我們相信這一比例將繼續上升到明年。我們的目標是 15%——15% 到 20% 的領先收入來自測試。

Did that answer your question?

這回答了你的問題嗎？

Yes. My second question is for your customers' concentration for the leading-edge advanced packaging portion. What's the customer concentration right now, and is the concentration going to change for 2025?

是的。我的第二個問題是關於您的客戶對領先的先進封裝部分的關注。目前的顧客集中度是多少？

You're asking the customer composition of (multiple speakers) --

您要詢問的客戶組成（多位發言者）——

Concentration.

專注。

Concentration?

專注？

Yes.

是的。

I don't think we have a concentration issue here. I think the -- we are having engagement with all the direct customers, with the system houses, with the fabless houses. We are dealing with the foundries. So the demand is coming from all different directions.

我認為我們這裡不存在註意力集中的問題。我認為——我們正在與所有直接客戶、系統公司、無晶圓廠公司接觸。我們正在與鑄造廠打交道。所以需求是來自各個不同的方向。

And basically, all the who's who that are involved in the leading-edge will be -- we were having engagement with. And we just -- at this point, concentration is not a real issue. The real issue is how fast or how efficiently or how effectively we can catch up with the -- catch up our capacity with the demand.

基本上，所有參與前沿領域的人都將是我們正在接觸的人。我們只是——在這一點上，集中度並不是一個真正的問題。真正的問題是我們能夠以多快的速度、多有效的方式趕上我們的產能和需求。

I'm sorry. Just to be clear, it's not the case idea of top two, top three customer accounts for the majority of your advanced packaging business?

對不起。需要澄清的是，這不是前二、前三名客戶佔先進封裝業務大部分的案例想法嗎？

I'm sorry?

對不起？

Okay. I thought that top two or top three customers in your advanced packaging accounts for like 80% or 60% of your $500 million revenue?

好的。我認為你們先進封裝領域的前兩名或前三名客戶佔你們 5 億美元收入的 80% 或 60% 左右？

At this point, yes.

在這一點上，是的。

Yes. So that's the customer concentration which is supposed to be high for this year, right? Do you see the consumer concentration remain this high for next year? That was the question.

是的。這就是今年應該很高的客戶集中度，對嗎？您認為明年消費者集中度會維持這麼高嗎？這就是問題所在。

It will not be the same percentage as we're seeing today. I think it's going to be much more broad-based next year.

它不會與我們今天看到的百分比相同。我認為明年的範圍將會更加廣泛。

I see. I understand. Thank you.

我懂了。我明白。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Rick Hsu, Daiwa Securities.

Rick Hsu，大和證券。

Hi, can you guys hear me?

嗨，你們聽得到我說話嗎？

Yes, we can.

是的，我們可以。

Okay, yeah. Thank you so much for taking my questions, especially during this typhoon season. Yeah, I guess, maybe just -- and wow, you guys are still on the duty. Okay. Just one quick question from me, housekeeping. So your utilization rates across your assembly and testing for Q3 and Q4, please?

好吧，是的。非常感謝您回答我的問題，特別是在這個颱風季節。是的，我想，也許只是──哇，你們還在值班。好的。我只想問一個簡單的問題，客房服務。那麼，您在第三季和第四季的組裝和測試中的使用率是多少？

I think the utilization will be very similar between the two quarters. Right now, for both packaging and testing, we're running at 65% to 70%.

我認為這兩個季度的利用率將非常相似。目前，無論是封裝還是測試，我們的運行速度都是 65% 到 70%。

So 65% to 70%. Is that correct?

所以65%到70%。這是正確的嗎？

Correct.

正確的。

Okay. And second question is regarding the global semiconductor revenue forecast or the semiconductor market ex-memory. What's your take -- what's your update right now for this year and next year? Were you thinking next year, the growth will be better than this year?

好的。第二個問題是關於全球半導體收入預測或記憶體以外的半導體市場。您的看法是什麼—您對今年和明年的最新情況有何看法？您是否認為明年的成長會比今年更好？

Rick, are you asking for our view on the general semiconductor market?

Rick，您想詢問我們對一般半導體市場的看法嗎？

Yes. And if you can share also your own revenue growth this year, next year, especially for next year, that would be great.

是的。如果你也能分享你自己今年、明年，尤其是明年的營收成長，那就太好了。

I think the general market this year is still not recovering very well. And I think the next -- going into next year, I think in terms of general market, it's still going to be a lukewarm year. I think the only bright spot at this point is really the leading-edge and our AI-, HPC-related type of business.

我認為今年整體市場恢復得還不是很好。我認為，進入明年，我認為就整體市場而言，這仍然是不冷不熱的一年。我認為目前唯一的亮點確實是領先的技術以及我們與人工智慧、高效能運算相關的業務類型。

And so this year, I think the overall -- if you look at the whole non-memory, if you exclude the AI or HPC related, I think the whole market has actually came down to some degree. So there was really negative growth for this year.

因此，今年，我認為總體而言，如果你看看整個非記憶體領域，如果排除人工智慧或高效能運算相關的領域，我認為整個市場實際上已經在某種程度上下降了。所以今年確實是負成長。

Going into next year, I think if you look at different analysis or different research reports, I think people's view on next year is really all over the map. I think there will be low, mid-single digits all the way up to close to 20% kind of growth.

進入明年，我認為如果你看不同的分析或不同的研究報告，我認為人們對明年的看法確實是多種多樣的。我認為將會出現低、中個位數的成長，直到接近 20% 的成長。

So it's really -- at this point, I think the situation is very unclear. So what we are doing is really focusing on what we are seeing our own business and where those businesses are coming from, and what are the mentality or momentum of each different categories.

所以，在這一點上，我認為情況確實非常不清楚。因此，我們所做的實際上是專注於我們所看到的自己的業務以及這些業務來自哪裡，以及每個不同類別的心態或動力是什麼。

At this point, I think we continue to see that leading edge will be the main driver for next year, although the general market will have a kind of slow recovery. We are seeing that we -- our investment in test is paying off.

在這一點上，我認為我們繼續看到領先優勢將成為明年的主要驅動力，儘管整體市場將緩慢復甦。我們看到我們對測試的投資正在得到回報。

We're seeing both very good progress in terms of increasing our turnkey ratio and our turnkey business as well as our direct business, front end; although, again, a large chunk of it is really coming from the leading edge.

我們看到在提高交鑰匙比率和交鑰匙業務以及我們的直接業務、前端方面都取得了非常好的進展；儘管其中很大一部分確實來自前沿。

So without giving you a full -- in terms of what kind of growth we're going to have for next year, we will have a clearer picture once we've done our budget cycle. And I'm sure we're going to have a more meaningful discussion come next quarter.

因此，在沒有向您提供明年的成長情況的全面資訊的情況下，一旦我們完成了預算週期，我們就會有一個更清晰的畫面。我確信我們將在下個季度進行更有意義的討論。

Rick, does that --?

瑞克，是這樣嗎——？

Great. Yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you so much.

偉大的。是的，這真的很有幫助。太感謝了。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Charlie Chan, Morgan Stanley.

陳查理，摩根士丹利。

Hi, Joseph, Ken, and Iris. I hope you stay safe and warm. So my first question is about your investment in testing business, right? Joseph just said that they will pay off next year.

嗨，約瑟夫、肯和艾里斯。我希望你保持安全和溫暖。所以我的第一個問題是關於您在測試業務上的投資，對吧？約瑟夫只是說他們明年就會還清。

So can I ask some more details? So first of all, for testing revenue, do you expect more coming from the chip probing outsourcing or your sort of final test and burn-in kind of a business takeoff for next year?

那我可以問更多細節嗎？首先，對於測試收入，您是否期望更多來自晶片探測外包或最終測試和老化類型的明年業務起飛？

Charlie, your question is regarding the composition of our test market share gains that we're expecting. Is that correct?

查理，你的問題是關於我們預期的測試市場佔有率成長的組成。這是正確的嗎？

Yup, for next year. Yes, thanks, Ken.

是的，明年。是的，謝謝，肯。

I won't be able to give you a breakdown. But what I can say is that we will be making the necessary investments covering all kinds of different businesses. Some can be for wafer short. It can be for final test or burn-in-related final test.

我無法給你一個細分。但我可以說的是，我們將對各種不同業務進行必要的投資。有些可能是晶圓短缺。它可以用於最終測試或與老化相關的最終測試。

I think we are also aggressively expanding our turnkey businesses as well with our existing customers and future customers. So I think the -- our turnkey service really gives us an edge in terms of growing our test business, both in the -- in all fronts, including some outsourced business as well as direct business from direct customers.

我認為我們也在積極拓展我們的交鑰匙業務以及現有客戶和未來客戶的業務。因此，我認為，我們的交鑰匙服務確實為我們在所有方面發展測試業務方面提供了優勢，包括一些外包業務以及來自直接客戶的直接業務。

Okay, this is perfect. Thanks, Joseph. And my second question is about the gross margin trend. I feel like it's a little bit disappointing per se. Because for your fourth-quarter ATM since revenues are flat, but your margins are still flat, right?

好的，這很完美。謝謝，約瑟夫。我的第二個問題是關於毛利率趨勢。我覺得它本身有點令人失望。因為對於你們第四季的 ATM 來說，收入持平，但你們的利潤率仍然持平，對吧？

But I thought your advanced packaging, especially the testing parts, continued to grow in fourth quarter. So can you give us some sense about how we are going to model gross margin trend to next year. Do you really benefit from the growth from the advanced packaging and testing? Thanks.

但我認為你們的先進封裝，尤其是測試零件，在第四季繼續成長。那麼您能否告訴我們一些關於我們將如何為明年的毛利率趨勢建模的資訊。您真的從先進封裝和測試的成長中受益嗎？謝謝。

So your second question is regarding the characterization of our gross margin, one for this coming quarter and then from a future -- longer-term future outlook perspective. Is that correct?

因此，你的第二個問題是關於我們毛利率的描述，一個是針對下一個季度的毛利率，然後是從未來——更長期的未來展望的角度。這是正確的嗎？

Yes, yes. Thanks, Ken.

是的，是的。謝謝，肯。

Yes. We are a bit disappointed with this year's margin performance. As we pointed out, once we can reach loading of 70% and above, we will be -- we can go back to our structural margin range. Unfortunately, I think that at this point, because the general market is still relatively weak, while the leading edge still represents only a small percentage of our overall revenue, so we weren't able to make it this year.

是的。我們對今年的利潤率表現有點失望。正如我們所指出的，一旦我們能夠達到 70% 及以上的負載，我們就可以回到我們的結構裕度範圍。不幸的是，我認為在這一點上，因為整體市場仍然相對疲軟，而領先優勢仍然只占我們整體收入的一小部分，所以我們今年沒能做到。

But going into next year, I think, of course, things are looking up, both from a general market perspective. Like I said, it's going to be -- although not as strong, but it's still going to have a better recovery than this year. While we also aggressively expanding the leading-edge capacity which should represent more than 10% or maybe at the low teens kind of percentage of overall revenue.

但進入明年，我認為，當然，從整體市場角度來看，情況正在好轉。就像我說的，雖然沒有那麼強勁，但仍然會比今年有更好的復甦。同時，我們也積極擴大領先產能，該產能應佔總收入的 10% 以上，或可能是十幾歲以下的百分比。

So -- and also the test portion of our business will continue to increase. All these put together will definitely help our margin for next year. And although I -- one thing I would like to mention is that all the investments that we'll be making for capacity expansion is more front-end loaded. And because these leading-edge is much more complex, you really have to have very high competencies in all process including equipment, including process, technology, scale, logistics, everything.

因此，我們業務的測試部分也將持續增加。所有這些加在一起肯定會有助於我們明年的利潤。儘管我想提到的一件事是，我們為產能擴張而進行的所有投資都更像是前端負載。而且因為這些前沿要複雜得多，所以你真的必須在包括設備在內的所有流程中擁有非常高的能力，包括流程、技術、規模、物流，一切。

So I think a lot of the investment, hard and soft investment, need to be put in front end. And so it's going to be more front-end loaded. And the revenue will come later. It will be more back end a little bit. So for the next year, it will be a bit more, I should say, tough.

所以我認為很多投資，無論是硬投資還是軟投資，都需要放在前端。因此，前端負載將會更多。而且收入會在稍後到來。它將更加後端一點。因此，我應該說，明年的情況會更加艱難。

It's very natural that because of the front-end loaded investment, the margin performance in the first half of the year will be weakened in the second half. But as a whole year, we are very, very confident that we will be able to bring the overall margin back to the structural margin range.

很自然的是，由於前端負載投資，上半年的利潤表現在下半年會減弱。但從全年來看，我們非常非常有信心能夠將整體利潤率拉回結構性利潤率區間。

Does that answer your question? He's already off. Okay, next question.

這能回答你的問題嗎？他已經下班了好的，下一個問題。

Laura Chen, Citi.

勞拉陳，花旗銀行。

Hello, hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. My question, actually, is also similar to the gross margin trend. We assume that the leading-edge advanced packaging would be able to generate better ASP and also gross margin.

你好，嗨，下午好。感謝您回答我的問題。我的問題其實也跟毛利率趨勢類似。我們假設領先的先進封裝將能夠產生更好的平均售價和毛利率。

But like, Joseph, you mentioned that that will be front-loaded. So assuming that initially, that could be the margin dilution, but at the same time, because of the utilization rate should be high. So how should we think about the gross margin at this moment for your -- the most leading-edge advanced packaging?

但是，約瑟夫，你提到這將是前置的。因此，假設最初這可能是利潤稀釋，但同時，因為利用率應該很高。那麼，此時此刻，我們該如何考慮最前沿的先進封裝的毛利率呢？

Laura, your question relates to leading-edge advanced packaging's impact on gross margins.

勞拉，您的問題涉及領先的先進封裝對毛利率的影響。

Right.

正確的。

Now and going forward, right?

現在和未來，對嗎？

Yes, yes. Correct. Thank you.

是的，是的。正確的。謝謝。

Well, the leading-edge, both packaging and test, I think the -- it's really a margin-accretive business for us. I think the key question here is for us to really do a good job and continue to ramp up the capacity and to raise the -- as part of the revenue as fast as possible and as high as possible going forward, to continue to move up our margin. And when -- at a more steady state kind of status, I think the structural -- our margins should be closer to the higher end of the structural margin.

嗯，無論是封裝還是測試，我認為這都是領先的業務，這對我們來說確實是一項可以增加利潤的業務。我認為這裡的關鍵問題是我們要真正做好工作，繼續提高產能，並儘可能快地提高收入的一部分，繼續提高收入我們的利潤。當處於更穩定的狀態時，我認為結構性利潤率應該更接近結構性利潤率的高端。

Okay. Thank you. Yeah. And also, just a quick follow-up, if I may. I mean, for the AI accelerator, we also see the trend of the CPU opportunity. I'm not sure that is also considered as advanced packaging from ASE perspective, or you will view that more like a module or SiP type of business.

好的。謝謝。是的。另外，如果可以的話，請快速跟進。我的意思是，對於AI加速器，我們也看到了CPU機會的趨勢。我不確定從 ASE 的角度來看這是否也被視為高級封裝，或者您會認為它更像是模組或 SiP 類型的業務。

Is there a question there?

有問題嗎？

I think the answer is yes. We do look at it as a leading -- part of the leading-edge revenue that we're going to have. And I -- personally, I don't really think that it's a simple module. That does require a very high standard of precision, and it requires leading-edge technology to make this thing happen.

我認為答案是肯定的。我們確實將其視為我們將擁有的領先收入的一部分。就我個人而言，我真的不認為這是一個簡單的模組。這確實需要非常高的精度標準，並且需要領先的技術來實現這一目標。

Okay, thank you.

好的，謝謝。

Thank you, Laura.

謝謝你，勞拉。

Gokul Hariharan.

戈庫爾·哈里哈蘭。

Well, hey, thanks very much for taking another round of questions. So first of all, on the leading-edge advanced packaging business, Joseph, now that you've done a fair round of investments here, any math in terms of how was the return profile looking like for this business?

嗯，嘿，非常感謝您接受另一輪問題。首先，關於領先的先進封裝業務，約瑟夫，既然您已經在這裡進行了一輪公平的投資，那麼您是否可以計算一下該業務的回報情況如何？

Like, previously, you've talked about $1 invested gives you $1 back, I think, in flip-chip in a year or so. Any math on the ROI for these investments based on your current expectations?

就像之前，您談到的那樣，我認為在倒裝晶片中，投資 1 美元將在一年左右的時間內帶來 1 美元的回報。根據您目前的預期，這些投資的投資報酬率有什麼計算嗎？

Gokul, your question is regarding the return profile of leading-edge advanced packaging.

Gokul，您的問題是關於尖端先進封裝的回報概況。

That's right.

這是正確的。

I think this is a bit difficult to answer. I think this is new. And like I said, the -- in terms of the investment, because of this is new, it's more complex. Aside from the hard costs that we need to put in, there's also a lot of soft costs that's evolved.

我覺得這個問題有點難回答。我認為這是新的。正如我所說，就投資而言，因為這是新的，所以更複雜。除了我們需要投入的硬成本之外，還產生了許多軟成本。

So it's difficult at this point to pinpoint what kind of return profile this kind of investment will have. But from what is -- what we are seeing today, I don't think we're too far off from what we have. As a rule of thumb before, on a blended basis, each dollar of investment could create close to $1 revenue. That's kind of -- the kind of profile remains to be seen. But at this point, I don't -- I haven't seen a major deviation from that.

因此，目前很難確定此類投資將產生什麼樣的回報。但從我們今天所看到的情況來看，我認為我們離我們所擁有的東西並不太遠。根據先前的經驗，在混合基礎上，每一美元的投資可以創造接近 1 美元的收入。這是一種──什麼樣的形象還有待觀察。但目前，我還沒有看到與此有重大偏差。

Understood. My second question is on your communication business, which is still the largest part of the ATM revenue. There is obviously a lot of excitement about edge AI, et cetera, larger chip sizes.

明白了。我的第二個問題是關於你們的通訊業務，它仍然是ATM收入的最大部分。顯然，邊緣人工智慧等更大晶片尺寸令人興奮。

Anything that is helping you on this regard from an outlook perspective? When you talk to your customers, do you think this is a segment they're growing into next year? Or do you think that is also going to be kind of very slow growth going into next year for the communication part given that's the biggest part of the revenue?

從前景的角度來看，在這方面有什麼對您有幫助的嗎？當您與客戶交談時，您認為這是他們明年會發展的細分市場嗎？或者您認為通訊部分明年的成長也將非常緩慢，因為這是收入的最大部分？

Gokul, you're asking from an edge AI perspective, whether that is going to impact our overall communications segment going forward or our expectations related to that.

Gokul，您從邊緣人工智慧的角度詢問，這是否會影響我們未來的整體通訊領域或我們與之相關的期望。

Yes. For '25, yeah.

是的。對於'25，是的。

Oh, you mean AI devices?

哦，你是說人工智慧設備嗎？

Yeah. Edge AI and any expectation on 2025 improvement in flip chip packaging and flip CSP, BGA, et cetera, for your core communication portfolio?

是的。邊緣 AI 以及對 2025 年倒裝晶片封裝和倒裝 CSP、BGA 等方面的改進對您的核心通訊產品組合有何期望？

Well, I think that's certainly the theory. And once the AI comes into play, I think there's going to be a lot of edge devices that's -- or more applications that are coming on board. It will definitely take some time. And we will continue to observe the magnitude of AI-related product proliferation.

嗯，我認為這確實是理論。一旦人工智慧發揮作用，我認為將會出現很多邊緣設備，或更多的應用程式。這肯定需要一些時間。我們將持續觀察人工智慧相關產品擴散的程度。

And with our technology and capacity, we think we'll certainly be the biggest beneficiary of the ongoing trend. I can't answer whether that's going to happen in a big way in 2025 or anytime -- any specific timing. But we believe that is certainly the trend, and it's going to happen sooner or later.

憑藉我們的技術和能力，我們認為我們肯定會成為當前趨勢的最大受益者。我無法回答這是否會在 2025 年或任何特定時間發生。但我們相信這肯定是趨勢，而且遲早會發生。

Gokul, that answers your question, right?

Gokul，這回答了你的問題，對嗎？

That should be fine. Yeah, thank you.

那應該沒問題。是的，謝謝。

All right. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

(Operator Instructions) Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

（操作員指令）Bruce Lu，高盛。

Okay, another question for the ATM gross margin. I think we were talking about margin recover couple of quarters ago. And -- but the gross margin for ATM is still running by low 20s even for the fourth quarter.

好的，還有一個關於 ATM 毛利率的問題。我想我們幾個季度前就在談論利潤恢復。而且，即使在第四季度，ATM 的毛利率仍然在 20 多美元以下。

But if you look at the business, the testing business is supposed to be higher gross margin, grow faster than other business. Your advanced AI business, which is supposed to be a higher margin and is over $600 million revenue, suggesting that fourth-quarter revenue contribution on those is supposed to be much higher.

但如果你看一下業務，測試業務應該比其他業務毛利率更高、成長更快。你們的先進人工智慧業務的利潤率應該更高，收入超過 6 億美元，這表明第四季度這些業務的收入貢獻應該要高得多。

So other than lower utilization rates from your mature technology capacity, is there anything we missed or anything we see that as a margin headwind?

那麼，除了成熟技術產能的利用率較低之外，我們是否錯過了什麼或我們認為存在什麼利潤逆風？

I think for fourth quarter, we are facing a higher-cost environment. Like I said, a lot of the -- not just the hard costs that we need to put in for capacity; there's a lot of development costs that we need to put in. There's a lot of R&D effort that we need to put in. Also, if we look at the overall environment, we are facing weather difficulties. We are looking at -- we are having the second run of electricity bill rates.

我認為第四季我們面臨更高的成本環境。就像我說的，很多——不僅僅是我們需要為容量投入的硬成本；還有很多。我們需要投入大量的開發成本。我們需要投入大量的研發工作。另外，從整體環境來看，我們還面臨天氣上的困難。我們正在研究——我們正在製定第二次電費帳單。

Last time, it was about 15%. And on top of it, starting from October, just another 14% increase in our electricity bill. We are staffing up for the new capacity that we're going to put in. So a lot of the front-end investment that we need to put in or expenses that we need to put -- to throw in does have an impact for our fourth-quarter margin.

上次大約是15%。最重要的是，從 10 月開始，我們的電費又增加了 14%。我們正在為即將投入的新產能配備人員。因此，我們需要投入的大量前端投資或需要投入的費用確實會對我們第四季的利潤率產生影響。

So we're kind of scrambling to -- although there are some upside for us, including the higher percentage of test revenue, but that -- I think the progress in that is not enough to offset all the other expenses that we will be incurring for fourth quarter.

因此，我們有點爭先恐後地——儘管我們有一些好處，包括更高的測試收入比例，但——我認為這方面的進展不足以抵消我們將產生的所有其他費用第四季度。

That's why we're saying, although with a slight growth in our overall revenue margin, it doesn't seem to be -- there wouldn't be a real pickup in terms of our margin for fourth quarter. But like I said, once we get into a more steady state, we are very confident that we will be reaching our structural margin and more so on the higher end of that range.

這就是為什麼我們說，儘管我們的整體營收利潤率略有成長，但第四季的利潤率似乎不會真正回升。但就像我說的，一旦我們進入更穩定的狀態，我們就非常有信心達到我們的結構性利潤，尤其是達到該範圍的高端。

And does that answer your question, Bruce?

這能回答你的問題嗎，布魯斯？

Sure. Can you reiterate that? Can you restate your structural gross margin? And can you raise that after your -- if you achieve a $1 billion revenue from advanced next year?

當然。能重申一下嗎？能重申一下您的結構性毛利率嗎？如果您明年的預付款收入達到 10 億美元，您能否在之後籌集資金？

I think the structural margin will continue to be 24% to 30%. And like I said, the -- for next year, it will be back-end loaded basically in terms of our margin improvement because of a lot of the front-end investment that we need to put in for the first half of the year. And there's a lot of engineering, R&D efforts that we need to put in.

我認為結構性利潤率將持續維持在24%至30%。正如我所說，明年，由於我們需要在今年上半年投入大量前端投資，因此我們的利潤率改善基本上將由後端加載。我們需要投入大量的工程、研發工作。

I see. Thank you.

我懂了。謝謝。

Charlie Chan, Morgan Stanley.

陳查理，摩根士丹利。

Thanks, Iris. Thanks for taking my second question. So my question is about the end demand, especially recent year, several companies reported very disappointing smartphone-related guidance, right, no matter Amkor or last night, Qorvo.

謝謝，艾麗絲。感謝您回答我的第二個問題。所以我的問題是關於最終需求，特別是最近一年，幾家公司報告了非常令人失望的智慧型手機相關指導，對吧，無論是 Amkor 還是昨晚的 Qorvo。

So I'm wondering whether ASE also see a similar trend of the smartphone weakness, especially for the major US brand smartphones. Do you see so-called forecast cut or order cuts? Thank you.

所以我想知道日月光是否也看到了智慧型手機疲軟的類似趨勢，特別是對於美國主要品牌的智慧型手機。您是否看到所謂的預測下調或訂單下調？謝謝。

You're looking for our view on the communications segment for, in particular, handsets?

您正在尋找我們對通訊領域（尤其是手機）的看法嗎？

Yes, indeed. Yeah, because there are lots of noise, I would say. And if you can also talk about automotive, that would be much appreciated because also that's a different view there. Thanks.

是的，確實如此。是的，因為有很多噪音，我會說。如果您也可以談論汽車，我們將不勝感激，因為這也是一個不同的觀點。謝謝。

Okay. I think it's kind of hard to comment on noises that's playing around that. But I think we are -- from my own perspective, we're seeing typical seasonality for smartphone going into fourth quarter and also in the coming quarters.

好的。我認為很難對周圍的噪音做出評論。但我認為，從我自己的角度來看，我們看到智慧型手機的典型季節性將進入第四季度以及未來幾個季度。

We -- at least from our own forecast, we're not seeing a huge or a large-scale movement in our forecast. I think it's -- as a general comment, I think the -- I think both for communication and maybe for computing, I think things are kind of -- I think the inventory issue is kind of behind us.

我們——至少從我們自己的預測來看，我們的預測並沒有看到巨大或大規模的變化。我認為，作為一般性評論，我認為，無論是對於通訊還是對於計算，我認為庫存問題已經成為過去。

But then I think the real question is how the end demand or the consumption is coming, how that is coming back at this point. And that remains to be seen. I think a lot of the noise may come from -- I think there's a lot of hype in terms of all the new devices coming out with AI features in it, whether those will be appealing and when these AI applications will be actually put in place for the consumers to enjoy.

但我認為真正的問題是最終需求或消費將如何到來，在這一點上將如何回歸。這還有待觀察。我認為很多噪音可能來自——我認為所有具有人工智慧功能的新設備都有很多炒作，這些設備是否有吸引力，以及這些人工智慧應用程式何時真正到位供消費者享用。

I think -- so there could be some timing gaps between a real product coming out when the consumption starts to pick up. So there's different types of noises going -- flying around. What we need to do is really just focus on our own business and see how that fluctuate and how that affect our business.

我認為，當消費開始回升時，真正的產品問世之間可能存在一些時間差距。所以有不同類型的噪音在四處飛揚。我們真正需要做的就是專注於我們自己的業務，看看它如何波動以及如何影響我們的業務。

For the time being, at this point, we're seeing a stable fourth quarter in terms of all segments, although we are still seeing some softness in terms of automotive and maybe to some degree in industrial. But other than that, I think things are in the kind of a normal pattern for us.

就目前而言，我們看到所有細分市場的第四季度都保持穩定，儘管我們仍然看到汽車方面有些疲軟，工業方面可能有一定程度的疲軟。但除此之外，我認為事情對我們來說是正常的模式。

Thank you. Yeah, it's super helpful. And my second follow-up question is about your progress in burn-in. And so may I know how do you think about your kind of cost structure, meaning, if you need to buy third parties' burn-in tool, would that sort of dilute your margin for your future testing business?

謝謝。是的，這非常有幫助。我的第二個後續問題是關於您在老化方面的進展。所以我想知道您如何看待您的成本結構，也就是說，如果您需要購買第三方的老化工具，這會削弱您未來測試業務的利潤嗎？

I think it's a little bit early to comment on that, what kind of burn-in, what kind of specs for it, and whether those burn-in capacity will be consigned or purchased ourselves. It depends on what the future business is looking like. At this point, I think it's very difficult for me to comment on that.

我認為現在評論什麼樣的老化、什麼樣的規格，以及這些老化容量是否會寄售或自己購買還為時過早。這取決於未來的業務是什麼樣的。在這一點上，我認為我很難對此發表評論。

No problem. Thank you. Thanks again.

沒問題。謝謝。再次感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

There is no more question.

沒有更多的問題了。

All right. Well, thank you very much for attending the call. I'll turn it over to Joseph to close it all out.

好的。好的，非常感謝您參加電話會議。我會把它交給約瑟夫來結束這一切。

Okay. Thank you, all, for attending our conference call even at this typhoon day. I think, overall, we had a pretty good third quarter and stable fourth. And going into next year, I think we are very -- massively expanding our capacity for the leading edge and also for tests.

好的。感謝大家在這個颱風天參加我們的電話會議。我認為，總的來說，我們的第三季表現相當不錯，第四季也很穩定。進入明年，我認為我們將非常大規模地擴大我們的前沿和測試能力。

And we believe that the momentum will continue to build into 2025. And we are really looking up for next year, and we'll be producing very good results for our shareholders and for ourselves. Thank you very much.

我們相信這一勢頭將持續到 2025 年。我們真的很期待明年，我們將為我們的股東和我們自己創造非常好的業績。非常感謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。