日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2024 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Hello. I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations of ASE Technology Holdings. Welcome to our second quarter 2024 earnings release. Thank you for attending today. Please refer to our Safe Harbor notice on page 2.

你好。我是日月光科技控股的投資人關係主管Ken Hsiang。歡迎閱讀我們的 2024 年第二季財報發布。感謝您今天參加。請參閱第 2 頁的安全港通知。

All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation in this event. If participants do not consent, please disconnect at this time.

所有參與者同意透過參與本次活動來傳播他們的聲音和問題。如果參與者不同意，請此時斷開連線。

I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk, and our actual results may differ materially.

我想提醒大家，接下來的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述面臨高度風險，我們的實際結果可能有重大差異。

For the purposes of this presentation, dollar figures are generally stated in New Taiwan dollars unless otherwise indicated. As a Taiwan-based company, our financial information is presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS. Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP.

出於本演示的目的，除非另有說明，美元數字通常以新台幣表示。身為台灣公司，我們的財務資料依照台灣國際財務報告準則呈報。使用台灣國際財務報告準則所呈現的結果可能與使用其他會計準則呈現的結果有重大差異，包括我們的子公司使用中國公認會計準則所呈現的結果。

I am joined today by Dr. Tien Wu, our COO; and Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's presentation, I will be going over the financial results, and Joseph will give the company's outlook. Dr. Wu and Joseph will then be available to take your questions during the Q&A session that follows. During the Q&A session, each caller will be limited to two questions at a time but may return to the queue for further questions.

今天我們的營運長吳天博士也加入了我的行列。以及我們的財務長董約瑟夫 (Joseph Tung)。在今天的演講中，我將回顧財務業績，約瑟夫將給出公司的前景。吳博士和約瑟夫將在接下來的問答環節回答您的問題。在問答環節中，每個來電者一次只能提出兩個問題，但可以返回佇列詢問更多問題。

With that, let's get started. The second quarter can be summed up as the tale of two businesses, one business representing the leading-edge products and the other the more traditional products. For the traditional business, the second quarter had selective products with signs of reemergence.

就這樣，我們開始吧。第二季可以概括為兩項業務的故事，一項業務代表前沿產品，另一項業務代表更傳統的產品。傳統業務方面，第二季部分產品出現復甦跡象。

But by and large, general product demand lacked the strength and durability necessary to be considered a sustained healthy pickup in the immediate term. While the leading-edge business saw increasing demand with the development of increasing product pipelines.

但總的來說，一般產品需求缺乏必要的強度和持久性，無法被視為短期內持續健康的回升。而前沿業務隨著產品線的不斷發展，需求也不斷增加。

Equipment utilization for traditional products look to be near 60%, while utilization for the leading-edge products are effectively full. To support the bifurcated market, we will need to continue to increase our investment in the leading-edge space, in particular, labor and equipment. From the labor perspective, we will need to hire more engineers as the level of product complexities are increasing with the leading edge. We will also need to invest in incremental capital equipment to provide for incremental demand.

傳統產品的設備利用率接近60%，而前沿產品的設備利用率實際上已滿。為了支持分叉市場，我們需要繼續增加對前沿領域的投資，特別是勞動力和設備的投資。從勞動力的角度來看，隨著產品的複雜程度隨著領先優勢的增加而增加，我們將需要雇用更多的工程師。我們還需要投資增量資本設備來滿足增量需求。

For our EMS business, in the second quarter, demand for our services was slightly ahead of our initial expectations. We believe this was principally the result of a slightly faster start to the manufacturing season.

對於我們的 EMS 業務，第二季對我們服務的需求略高於我們最初的預期。我們認為這主要是由於生產季節開始速度稍快的結果。

Please turn to page 3, where you will find our second quarter consolidated results. For the second quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of TWD1.75 and basic EPS of TWD1.80. Consolidated net revenues increased 6% sequentially and 3% year-over-year. We had a gross profit of TWD23.1 billion with a gross margin of 16.4%. Our gross margin improved by 0.7 percentage points sequentially and 0.4 percentage points year-over-year. The sequential improvement in margin is principally due to NT dollar depreciation and product mix changes at both our ATM and EMS businesses.

請翻到第 3 頁，您可以在其中找到我們第二季的綜合業績。第二季度，我們錄得完全攤薄每股收益新台幣1.75，基本每股收益新台幣1.80。合併淨收入較上季成長 6%，較去年同期成長 3%。毛利為新台幣231億元，毛利率為16.4%。我們的毛利率較上月提高了 0.7 個百分點，較去年同期提高了 0.4 個百分點。利潤率的持續改善主要是由於新台幣貶值以及我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務的產品結構變化。

Our operating expenses increased by TWD0.7 billion sequentially and by TWD1.7 billion annually. The sequential increase in operating expenses are primarily due to higher R&D labor-related expenses. The year-over-year increase in operating expenses is primarily attributable to continued R&D staff-up and other labor-related costs.

營業費用較上季增加 7 億新台幣，每年增加 17 億新台幣。營業費用較上季增加主要是因為研發人工相關費用增加。營業費用年增主要歸因於研發人員的持續增加和其他勞動力相關成本。

Our operating expense percentage remained flat at 10% sequentially and increased by 1 percentage point year-over-year. The annual increase was also related to higher R&D staff-up for both ATM and EMS, overseas expansion and higher incentive stock option and bonus expenses.

我們的營運費用百分比與上一季持平，為 10%，較去年同期成長 1 個百分點。年度成長也與 ATM 和 EMS 研發人員的增加、海外擴張以及激勵股票選擇權和獎金費用的增加有關。

Operating profit was TWD9 billion, up TWD1.5 billion sequentially and down TWD0.4 billion year-over-year. The year-over-year decline in operating profit is primarily related to higher operating expenses related to the ramp-up of our leading-edge advanced packaging and overseas expansion.

營業利潤為新台幣 90 億元，較上季增加 15 億元，較去年同期減少 4 億元。營業利潤年減主要是由於我們領先的先進封裝和海外擴張的增加導致營業費用增加。

Operating margin increased 0.7 percentage points sequentially and declined 0.5 percentage points year-over-year. During the quarter, we had a net nonoperating gain of TWD1.1 billion. Our nonoperating gain for the quarter primarily consists of net foreign exchange hedging activities, profits from associates and other nonoperating income, offset in part by net interest expense of TWD1.2 billion.

營業利益率較上季成長 0.7 個百分點，較去年同期下降 0.5 個百分點。本季度，我們的營業外淨收益為新台幣 11 億。我們本季的非經營性收益主要包括外匯對沖活動淨額、聯營公司利潤和其他非經營性收入，部分被 12 億新台幣的淨利息支出所抵銷。

Tax expense for the quarter was TWD2 billion. Our effective tax rate for the quarter was 19%. Net income for the quarter was TWD7.8 billion, representing an increase of TWD2.1 billion sequentially and flat year-over-year. The NT dollar depreciated 3% against the US dollar sequentially during the second quarter, while depreciating 4.2% annually.

本季稅費為新台幣 20 億元。我們本季的有效稅率為 19%。本季淨利為新台幣 78 億，較上一季增加 21 億新台幣，較去年同期持平。第二季新台幣兌美元匯率連續貶值3%，每年貶值4.2%。

From a sequential perspective, we estimate the NT dollar depreciation had a 0.85 percentage point positive impact to the company's gross and operating margins. While from an annual perspective, we estimate the NT dollar depreciation had a 1.21 percentage point positive impact to the company's gross and operating margins.

從環比來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對公司的毛利率和營業利益率有0.85個百分點的正面影響。而從年度角度來看，我們估計新台幣貶值對公司的毛利率和營業利益率產生了1.21個百分點的正面影響。

On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items without the inclusion of PPA-related expenses. Consolidated gross profit excluding PPA expenses would be TWD24 billion with a 17.1% gross margin. Operating profit would be TWD10.2 billion with an operating margin of 7.3%. Net profit would be TWD9 billion with a net margin of 6.4%. Basic EPS excluding PPA expenses would be TWD2.08.

在頁面底部，我們提供了關鍵的損益行項目，不包括與購電協議相關的費用。扣除購電協議費用後的綜合毛利將為新台幣 240 億元，毛利率為 17.1%。營業利益為新台幣 102 億元，營業利益率為 7.3%。淨利潤為新台幣 90 億元，淨利潤率為 6.4%。不包括 PPA 費用的基本 EPS 為 TWD2.08。

On page 4 is a graphical representation of our consolidated financial performance. You will see a trough-ish but gradually improving environment for both our ATM and EMS businesses. Gross margins are gradually improving also. On the operating margin front, as was stated earlier, operating expenses are increasing for expected ramps in leading-edge advanced packaging products. We expect these leading-edge advanced packaging products to be accretive to margins.

第 4 頁是我們綜合財務績效的圖形表示。你會看到我們的ATM和EMS業務的環境雖然處於低谷，但正在逐漸改善。毛利率也在逐步改善。在營業利潤方面，如前所述，由於領先的先進封裝產品的預期成長，營業費用正在增加。我們預計這些領先的先進封裝產品將增加利潤。

On page 5 is our ATM P&L. The ATM revenue reported here contains revenues eliminated at the holding company level related to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses. For the second quarter of 2024, revenues for our ATM business were TWD77.8 billion, up TWD4 billion from the previous quarter and up TWD1.7 billion from the same period last year. This represents a 5% increase sequentially and a 2% increase annually.

第 5 頁是我們的 ATM 損益表。此處報告的 ATM 收入包含在控股公司層級抵消的與我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易相關的收入。 2024年第二季度，ATM業務營收為新台幣778億，較上季增加40億新台幣，比去年同期增加17億新台幣。這意味著環比增長 5%，每年增長 2%。

Gross profit for our ATM business was TWD17.2 billion, up TWD1.6 billion sequentially and up TWD1 billion year-over-year. Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 22.1%, up 1.1 percentage points sequentially and up 0.9 percentage points year-over-year. The sequential margin improvement was primarily related to foreign currency and higher loading efficiency, offset by higher utility costs. The annual margin improvement is primarily the result of foreign exchange, product mix offset in part by higher utility costs.

ATM 業務毛利為新台幣 172 億元，較上季增加新台幣 16 億元，較去年同期增加新台幣 10 億元。 ATM業務毛利率為22.1%，季增1.1個百分點，較去年同期上升0.9個百分點。利潤率環比改善主要與外匯和裝載效率提高有關，但被公用事業成本上升所抵消。年度利潤率的提高主要是外匯和產品組合的結果，部分被較高的公用事業成本所抵銷。

During the second quarter, operating expenses were TWD9.9 billion, up TWD0.5 billion sequentially and TWD1.2 billion year-over-year. The sequential increase in operating expenses was primarily driven by higher compensation expenses from ramp-up of leading-edge advanced packaging. The annual operating expense increase was driven primarily by the continued scale-up of R&D labor and other labor-related expenses.

第二季營業費用為新台幣 99 億，較上季增加 5 億新台幣，較去年同期增加 12 億新台幣。營運費用的環比增長主要是由於領先先進封裝的增加而導致的補償費用增加。年度營業費用成長主要是由於研發勞動力和其他與勞動力相關的費用規模持續擴大所致。

Our operating expense percentage for the quarter was 12.8%, flat sequentially and up 1.3 percentage points annually. Sequentially, operating expenses kept pace with revenue expansion. The annual increase was due to higher compensation expenses, primarily at the R&D level. During the second quarter, operating profit was TWD7.3 billion, representing an increase of TWD1.2 billion quarter-over-quarter and a decline of TWD0.2 billion year-over-year. Operating margin was 9.3%, increasing 1.1 percentage points sequentially and declining 0.4 percentage points year-over-year.

本季我們的營運費用百分比為 12.8%，與上一季持平，年增 1.3 個百分點。因此，營運支出與收入擴張保持同步。年度成長是由於薪資費用增加，主要是在研發層面。第二季營業利潤為新台幣73億元，較上季增加12億元，較去年同期減少2億元。營業利益率為 9.3%，較上季上升 1.1 個百分點，較去年同期下降 0.4 個百分點。

For foreign exchange, we estimate the NT to US dollar exchange rate had a positive 1.47 percentage point impact on our ATM sequential margins and a positive 2.1 percentage point impact on a year-over-year basis. Without the impact of PPA-related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 23.3% and operating profit margin would be 10.8%.

對於外匯，我們估計新台幣兌美元匯率對我們的 ATM 連續利潤率產生了 1.47 個百分點的正面影響，與去年同期相比，產生了 2.1 個百分點的正面影響。如果不考慮與購電協議相關的折舊和攤銷的影響，ATM 毛利率將為 23.3%，營業利潤率為 10.8%。

On page 6, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L. As you can see here, the first half of 2024 is shaping up very similarly with the first half of 2023.

在第 6 頁，您將找到我們 ATM 損益表的圖形表示。正如您在此處所看到的，2024 年上半年的情況與 2023 年上半年非常相似。

On page 7 is our ATM revenue by 3C market segments. Our communications application dropped 3 percentage points, while our computing and consumer segments increased. During the quarter, we experienced some spotty pickups in our consumer space. However, end demand was insufficient to sustain a more robust growth rate. As a note here, our leading-edge advanced packaging services are recorded within computing and communications accordingly in line with their underlying usage.

第 7 頁是我們以 3C 細分市場劃分的 ATM 收入。我們的通訊應用下降了 3 個百分點，而我們的計算和消費領域則有所成長。本季度，我們的消費領域經歷了一些不穩定的回升。然而，最終需求不足以維持更強勁的成長速度。這裡要注意的是，我們領先的先進封裝服務根據其基本用途記錄在計算和通訊中。

On page 8, you will find our ATM revenue by service type. There are only some small movements here with other services declining 2 percentage points and wire bonding and advanced services increasing 1 percentage point each.

在第 8 頁，您可以按服務類型查看我們的 ATM 收入。這裡只有一些小幅變動，其他服務下降了 2 個百分點，而引線鍵合和高級服務各增加了 1 個百分點。

On page 9, you can see the second quarter results of our EMS business. Our EMS revenues came in a bit ahead of where we expected, mainly as a result of slightly earlier than expected start to the manufacturing season. During the quarter, EMS revenues were TWD62.9 billion, improving TWD3.5 billion or 6% sequentially and improving TWD2.5 billion or 4% year-over-year.

在第9頁，您可以看到我們的EMS業務第二季的業績。我們的 EMS 收入略高於我們的預期，主要是由於製造季節的開始略早於預期。本季度，EMS 營收為新台幣 629 億，季增 35 億新台幣，成長 6%，年增 25 億新台幣，成長 4%。

These sequential and annual revenue improvements are primarily attributable to our customers' timing of this year's product manufacturing start. Sequentially, our EMS business's gross margin improved 0.3 percentage points to 9.6%. This change was principally the result of better loading.

這些連續和年度收入的成長主要歸因於我們的客戶今年產品製造開始的時間。隨後，我們的 EMS 業務毛利率提高了 0.3 個百分點，達到 9.6%。這一變化主要是更好的加載的結果。

Operating expenses within our EMS business was TWD4.1 billion, increasing TWD0.2 billion sequentially and TWD0.5 billion annually. Our second quarter operating expense percentage was 6.5%, flat sequentially and up 0.6 percentage points annually. The higher annual operating expense percentage was primarily related to higher expenses related to NPI development.

EMS 業務營運支出為新台幣 41 億，較上季增加新台幣 2 億，每年增加新台幣 5 億。我們第二季的營運費用百分比為 6.5%，與上一季持平，較去年同期成長 0.6 個百分點。年度營運費用百分比較高主要與 NPI 開發相關費用較高有關。

Operating margin for the second quarter was 3.1%, improving 0.3 percentage points sequentially and declining 0.4 percentage points year-over-year, primarily due to increase in compensation expenses on higher headcount, mainly due to the consolidation of an acquired entity.

第二季營業利益率為 3.1%，較上一季提高 0.3 個百分點，較去年同期下降 0.4 個百分點，主要是因為收購實體的合併導致員工人數增加導致薪資費用增加。

Our EMS second quarter operating profit was TWD2 billion, up TWD0.3 billion sequentially while down TWD0.1 billion annually. On the bottom of the page, you will find a graphical representation of our EMS revenue by application. As is typical in the second quarter, there isn't much movement here on a sequential basis. However, on an annual basis, we are experiencing decent growth within our automotive products.

EMS第二季營業利潤為新台幣20億元，較上季增加新台幣3億元，較去年同期減少新台幣1億元。在頁面底部，您將找到按應用程式劃分的 EMS 收入的圖形表示。正如第二季度的典型情況一樣，這裡沒有太大的連續變化。然而，我們的汽車產品每年都在經歷可觀的成長。

On page 10, you will find key line items from our balance sheet. At the end of the second quarter, we had cash, cash equivalents and current financial assets of TWD75.3 billion. Our total interest-bearing debt declined by TWD11.4 billion to TWD183.9 billion. Total unused credit lines amounted to TWD417 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was TWD26.1 billion. Our net debt to equity this quarter was TWD0.34.

在第 10 頁，您將找到我們資產負債表中的關鍵行項目。第二季末，我們擁有現金、現金等價物及流動金融資產753億新台幣。有息債務總額減少 114 億新台幣，至 1,839 億新台幣。未使用的信貸額度總計達 4,170 億新台幣。本季的 EBITDA 為新台幣 261 億。本季我們的淨負債股本比為新台幣 0.34。

On page 11, you will find our equipment capital expenditures relative to our EBITDA. Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the second quarter in US dollars totalled $406 million, of which, $215 million were used in packaging operations, $154 million in testing operations, $31 million in EMS operations and $6 million in interconnect material operations and others.

在第 11 頁，您會發現我們的設備資本支出與 EBITDA 的關係。第二季機械設備資本支出（以美元計）總計4.06億美元，其中2.15億美元用於封裝業務，1.54億美元用於測試業務，3,100萬美元用於EMS業務，600萬美元用於互連材料業務及其他業務。

We continue to be excited by the expanding portfolio of products that our leading-edge advanced packaging addresses. As we look further out, we continue to see signs that business is shaping up for the next super cycle. However, if we look into the more immediate future, we believe we will continue to have a tale of two businesses: the leading edge and the more traditional business.

我們繼續對我們領先的先進封裝所解決的不斷擴大的產品組合感到興奮。當我們進一步展望時，我們繼續看到業務正在為下一個超級週期做好準備的跡象。然而，如果我們展望更不久的將來，我們相信我們將繼續擁有兩種業務的故事：前沿業務和更傳統的業務。

When we look at the leading-edge business, including AI and high-end networking, business is continuing to boom. We cannot seem to get the capacity installed fast enough. For us, this is also not a single customer phenomenon either. And the interesting part is that it appears to be accelerating. On the more traditional business side, there is some excitement regarding potentially shortened refresh cycles on a number of products due to new AI features.

當我們審視包括人工智慧和高端網路在內的前沿業務時，業務正在持續蓬勃發展。我們似乎無法足夠快地安裝容量。對我們來說，這也不是單一的客戶現象。有趣的是，它似乎正在加速。在更傳統的業務方面，由於新的人工智慧功能，許多產品的更新周期可能會縮短，這令人興奮。

But by and large, our customers are still proceeding cautiously. For us, that means our customers generally are in a trial-and-error mode. They start with a conservative forecast. If their products hit, they will quickly adjust their outlooks. There is an increasing optimistic sentiment in the market, and we are looking forward to when such optimism manifests into increasing forecasts. If we look at our overall cost environment heading into the third quarter, we will need to continue to manage our costs of production with higher utility costs and ramping labor needs.

但總的來說，我們的客戶仍然謹慎行事。對我們來說，這意味著我們的客戶通常處於試錯模式。他們從保守的預測開始。如果他們的產品成功，他們會迅速調整自己的前景。市場樂觀情緒日益濃厚，我們期待這種樂觀情緒何時會體現為不斷增長的預測。如果我們審視進入第三季的整體成本環境，我們將需要繼續透過更高的公用事業成本和不斷增加的勞動力需求來管理我們的生產成本。

On the operating expense front, we also see continued spending on R&D labor, tools and equipment related to leading-edge advanced packaging and testing. And as I stated earlier, we will continue to bear higher operating expenses before the majority of revenues come into place towards the latter part of this year and next year. We are looking to hold our full year operating expense percentage increase to within 75 basis points of that of 2023.

在營運費用方面，我們也看到與領先的先進封裝和測試相關的研發勞動力、工具和設備的持續支出。正如我之前所說，在今年下半年和明年大部分收入到位之前，我們將繼續承擔更高的營運費用。我們希望將全年營運費用百分比增幅控制在 2023 年的 75 個基點以內。

With that, I would like to hand the floor over to Joseph Tung to speak to our corporate outlook. Joseph?

說到這裡，我想請董醫師來談談我們的企業前景。約瑟夫？

Yeah. Thank you, Ken. Let me give you our guidance for the third quarter. In terms of ATM, in NT dollar terms, our ATM third quarter 2024 revenue should grow by high single digits quarter-over-quarter. And our ATM third quarter gross margin should be between 23% to 23.5%.

是的。謝謝你，肯。讓我向您提供第三季的指導。就ATM而言，以新台幣計算，我們2024年第三季的ATM營收應會季減高個位數成長。而我們第三季ATM毛利率應該在23%到23.5%之間。

In terms of EMS, in NT dollar terms, our EMS third quarter 2024 revenue should grow mid to high teens quarter-on-quarter. Our EMS third quarter 2024 operating margin should be slightly above fourth quarter 2023 level of 3.5%.

就 EMS 而言，以新台幣計算，我們 2024 年第三季的 EMS 收入應該會較上季成長中到高位。我們的 EMS 2024 年第三季營業利潤率應略高於 2023 年第四季 3.5% 的水準。

And in addition to the revenue and margin guidance, I would like to also provide an update on our CapEx. In anticipation of the booming demand for leading-edge ATM capacity and further technology advancement, we believe we will need to step up our CapEx investment, starting from raising full year 2024 consolidated machinery CapEx to double from last year's USD914 million level.

除了收入和利潤指導之外，我還想提供有關我們資本支出的最新資訊。預計對先進 ATM 容量的需求旺盛以及技術的進一步進步，我們認為我們需要加大資本支出投資，從將 2024 年全年綜合機械資本支出提高到去年 9.14 億美元水平的兩倍開始。

And as these investments carry higher value contribution and are becoming more critical to the overall semiconductor manufacturing, we believe such investment will be both return and margin accretive.

由於這些投資具有更高的價值貢獻，並且對整個半導體製造變得越來越重要，我們相信此類投資將帶來回報和利潤成長。

On geographical expansion, we started our Malaysia expansion two years ago, and our Phase 1 has been completed, and we will start volume production in quarter one '25. Also, we're soon to close the acquisition of two Infineon operations, one in the Philippines and one in Korea, and expect revenue contributions of these two sites starting from third quarter this year.

在地理擴張方面，我們兩年前開始在馬來西亞擴張，第一階段已經完成，我們將在 25 年第一季開始大量生產。此外，我們很快就會完成對英飛凌兩家工廠的收購，一家位於菲律賓，一家位於韓國，並預計從今年第三季開始這兩個工廠將貢獻收入。

We have also acquired land in Mexico, and we've identified potential locations in Japan. The land will be developed, and buildings be constructed in anticipation of future customers' demand, and all these efforts are made to shorten the lead time for capacity ramp-up.

我們還在墨西哥購買了土地，並在日本確定了潛在的地點。將根據未來客戶的需求開發土地、建造建築物，所有這些努力都是為了縮短產能提升的準備時間。

With that, we will open the floor for questions.

接下來，我們將開始提問。

(Operator Instructions) Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan.

（操作員指令）Gokul Hariharan，摩根大通。

My first question is about the guidance. So when you talk about ATM high single digit, could you also help us to understand the full year growth prospects for ATM? Because I think back in February or January, I think Tien had talked about 6% to 10% for industry and similar growth for ATM. Any updates there given year-to-date, it looks like you'll be tracking at about flattish year-on-year on USD terms.

我的第一個問題是關於指導。那麼，當您談到ATM高個位數時，您能否也幫助我們了解ATM全年的成長前景？因為我回想起在 2 月或 1 月，Tien 曾談到工業成長 6% 到 10%，ATM 也有類似的成長。從年初至今的任何更新來看，以美元計算，您的追蹤數據將與去年同期持平。

And also gross margin. Previously, we were expecting 25% to 30% range in the second half of the year. Any reason, Joseph, why it's a little bit lower? Are there any start-up costs or any other additional costs that have come in? Or is it just that utilization is tracking lower.

還有毛利率。此前，我們預計下半年將成長 25% 至 30%。約瑟夫，有什麼原因嗎？是否有任何啟動成本或任何其他額外成本？或只是利用率正在下降。

And lastly, on CapEx, this double from FY '23, obviously, a bigger number than previous. Any breakdown in terms of test versus advanced packaging versus traditional packaging in terms of where you are putting in incremental CapEx. That's my first question.

最後，在資本支出方面，23 財年的數字顯然比之前的數字還要大。就增量資本支出的投入而言，測試與先進封裝與傳統封裝之間的任何細分。這是我的第一個問題。

I guess the full year -- in terms of a full year perspective, I think the -- in the general market, the recovery seems to be a bit slower than we were expecting. So in the -- although in the second half, we'll start to see the -- general market start to bottom out, and we'll start to have some recovery -- more recovery there. But the pace of it seems to be slower than it originally expected. But on the leading edge, we are still -- is booming, but we are aggressively trying to catch up with the capacity to meet the growing demand.

我想全年——從全年的角度來看，我認為——在整體市場上，復甦似乎比我們預期的要慢。因此，儘管在下半年，我們將開始看到整體市場開始觸底反彈，我們將開始出現一些復甦，更多的復甦。但速度似乎比原本預期的要慢一些。但在領先優勢上，我們仍在蓬勃發展，但我們正在積極努力趕上滿足不斷增長的需求的能力。

Well, all in all, put everything into consideration, I think for the full year, we're now looking at a more moderate type of growth in terms of our top line. And in terms of margin, I think, again, because of the more muted recovery of the general market, I think the -- in third quarter, we will come in a little bit short on the -- reaching the structural margin of 24%. But on the full year basis, we still remain hopeful that going into second half, we will have a better pickup and we're still -- I think the -- coming back to the structural margin is still in play at this point.

嗯，總而言之，考慮到一切，我認為全年，我們現在正在考慮在我們的收入方面採取更溫和的成長方式。就利潤率而言，我再次認為，由於整體市場的復甦更為溫和，我認為，在第三季度，我們將略顯不足，達到 24% 的結構性利潤率。但在全年的基礎上，我們仍然希望進入下半年，我們將有更好的回升，而且我認為，目前我們仍在發揮結構性利潤的作用。

What's the third question?

第三個問題是什麼？

CapEx breakdown.

資本支出細分。

The CapEx breakdown. With the new CapEx that I just mentioned, I think the breakdown will be roughly 53% for assembly and 38% for test. We have another 1% for material and about 8% for EMS.

資本支出明細。就我剛才提到的新資本支出而言，我認為組裝費用大約是 53%，測試費用為 38%。我們還有另外 1% 用於材料，大約 8% 用於 EMS。

Okay. That's very clear. My second question, Joseph, is on the 2.5D advanced packaging where you're obviously spending a lot of CapEx and the prospects are good. I think last time, I think Tien had mentioned TWD50 million additional revenues from this segment. And I think recently, I think in your AGM, you had indicated there's probably some upside to that number. Could you talk a little bit about, A, what is the scale of this kind of business? Is it -- do you think that this could be 10% of your ATM revenues next year?

好的。這非常清楚。 Joseph，我的第二個問題是關於 2.5D 先進封裝，您顯然花費了大量資本支出，而且前景良好。我想上次，Tien 提到了這個部門的額外收入 5,000 萬新台幣。我想最近，我想在你們的年度股東大會上，你們已經表示這個數字可能有一些上升空間。您能稍微講一下嗎，A，這種業務的規模是多少？您認為這可能佔您明年 ATM 收入的 10% 嗎？

And secondly, could you talk a little bit about your partnership with the leading foundry given they also called out increased usage of OSAT partners to fulfill customer demand? How widespread is your kind of customer base? Is it mostly coming from this leading AI accelerator customer? Or is it kind of more broad-based you're having multiple projects from many different customers for 2.5D packaging?

其次，您能否談談您與領先代工廠的合作關係，因為他們也呼籲增加 OSAT 合作夥伴的使用來滿足客戶需求？您的客戶群有多廣？它主要來自這個領先的人工智慧加速器客戶嗎？或者，您有來自許多不同客戶的多個 2.5D 封裝項目嗎？

Well, I think in terms of leading edge, I think mostly it's still coming from AI or high-performance computing. And I think it's a broader base. It's not just one customer phenomenon, as Ken mentioned earlier on. And we are having reactive engagements with both of our foundry partners as well as customers directly. And I think the raising of our CapEx is towards building the needed capacity for this type of -- including packaging as well as tests.

嗯，我認為就領先優勢而言，我認為主要仍然來自人工智慧或高效能運算。我認為這是一個更廣泛的基礎。正如肯之前提到的，這不僅僅是一種客戶現象。我們正在與我們的代工合作夥伴以及直接客戶進行積極的接觸。我認為我們的資本支出的提高是為了建立此類所需的能力，包括封裝和測試。

Ms. Sunny Lin, UBS.

Sunny Lin 女士，瑞銀集團。

So my first question is to follow up on the testing opportunities that you just mentioned regarding the advanced packaging business. And so could you share a bit more details regarding the customer engagement? And for some of the key projects, how you compete with the existing suppliers? .

所以我的第一個問題是跟進您剛才提到的先進封裝業務的測試機會。能否分享更多有關客戶參與度的細節？對於一些重點項目，你們如何與現有供應商競爭？ 。

The existing suppliers?

現有供應商？

For testing, for these HPC projects.

用於測試這些 HPC 項目。

Okay. I think the -- there's plenty to go around as we see the demand for leading edge, both for packaging and tests are booming. And we are currently still a little bit capacity constrained, and we are beefing up our CapEx in this area to build the capacity as well as to further our technology investment. I think the -- as I mentioned, the demand is coming from different customers and also a part of it from the foundry as well. So we will entertain whatever business that is needed from our customers. And in terms of meeting competition, there's always competition, we will do whatever we can to further penetrate whatever business that's in front of us.

好的。我認為，當我們看到封裝和測試方面對尖端技術的需求正在蓬勃發展時，還有很多事情要做。目前我們的產能仍受到一些限制，我們正在加強這一領域的資本支出，以建立產能並進一步加強我們的技術投資。我認為，正如我所提到的，需求來自不同的客戶，其中一部分也來自代工廠。因此，我們將接待客戶需要的任何業務。在迎接競爭方面，競爭總是存在的，我們將盡一切努力進一步滲透我們面前的任何業務。

Got it. Maybe let me try to ask from a different angle. And so for some of the AI accelerated products, there are some pretty solid existing suppliers that have very close relationship with the customers. They are willing to customize the burn-in tools and also the boards. And therefore, I just wonder what's your competitive strategies. And if you manage to get some of these products, when should we expect the revenue to decide to come through?

知道了。也許讓我嘗試從不同的角度提問。因此，對於一些人工智慧加速產品，有一些相當可靠的現有供應商，與客戶有著非常密切的關係。他們願意客製化老化工具和電路板。因此，我只是想知道你們的競爭策略是什麼。如果您設法獲得其中一些產品，我們應該預計什麼時候才能決定收入？

We are gearing up on our leading-edge testing capacity and capability, including burn-in. We are basically leveraging on our turnkey services. We do expect to have good progress starting from next year.

我們正在加強我們領先的測試能力和能力，包括老化。我們基本上利用我們的交鑰匙服務。我們確實希望從明年開始取得良好進展。

Mr. Charlie Chan.

陳查理先生。

So maybe to begin with, I'm wondering, Joseph, your view about TSMC talking about the Foundry 2.0. They include the (inaudible). Do you think going forward, would be more competition from foundry? Or do you believe there should be more collaborations?

所以，也許首先，約瑟夫，我想知道你對台積電談論代工廠 2.0 的看法。它們包括（聽不清楚）。您認為未來代工廠的競爭會更加激烈嗎？還是您認為應該有更多的合作？

That is really a testament that the back-end packaging and test is becoming a more and more critical part of the overall value chain. And we are excited about the opportunity in front of us. And we will be closely working with our partners both on the upstream and also downstream to make this thing happen. So I think the overall relationship with both our customers as well as upstream foundries, we are working very closely with both of them, and we'll try to come up with the capacity and the technology needed to suit their needs.

這確實證明了後端封裝和測試正在成為整個價值鏈中越來越關鍵的部分。我們對擺在我們面前的機會感到興奮。我們將與上游和下游的合作夥伴密切合作，以實現這一目標。因此，我認為與我們的客戶以及上游代工廠的整體關係，我們正在與他們雙方密切合作，我們將盡力提供滿足他們需求所需的產能和技術。

Got you. Thanks, Joseph. So my follow-up question is also to clarify your potential expansion of the advanced packaging business. So a couple of speculation, maybe it's a good chance for you to clarify here. So first of all, my understanding is that you only do the Wafer-on-Substrate, WoS. But the chart suggests that you want to expand to chip on wafers. That's the first part.

明白你了。謝謝，約瑟夫。所以我的後續問題也是為了澄清你們先進封裝業務的潛在擴張。所以一些猜測，也許這是你在這裡澄清的好機會。首先，我的理解是，你們只做基板上晶圓（WoS）。但該圖表表明您希望擴展到晶圓上晶片。這是第一部分。

And secondly, there's a rumor talking about you probably will do a new fab very close to [Taichung] or Changhua area, and there's a kind of offloading TSMC's burden. And number three is really the capacity number. As far as I know, probably in terms of WoS capacity, you have 60,000 wafers per month. But rumors talking about you're going to more than double the capacity for WoS. So -- and those kind of rumor or speculation, can you clarify a little bit?

其次，有傳言說您可能會在非常靠近[台中]或彰化地區的地方建造一座新晶圓廠，這可以減輕台積電的負擔。第三個其實是容量數字。據我所知，大概就 WoS 產能而言，你們每個月有 6 萬片晶圓。但有傳言稱您將把 WoS 的容量增加一倍以上。那麼——以及那些謠言或猜測，你能澄清一下嗎？

We're not going to clarify the speculation, by the way. But I will give you a qualitative description about the current engagement model. The technology takes years to develop. So whether the OS or the CoW or the equivalent of OS or the equivalent of CoW has been developed together with the foundry partners as well as key customers for years. So in the current landscape because of the capacity constraint, there has been active engagement with our partner as well with our customer to see which route will give you the most efficient alternative to fulfill the customer demand in the shortest amount of time. So this is kind of the partnership that we have developed with the leading foundry suppliers.

順便說一句，我們不會澄清這些猜測。但我會給你一個關於當前參與模式的定性描述。該技術需要數年的時間來開發。因此，無論是作業系統還是 CoW，還是作業系統或 CoW 的等效項，多年來都是與代工合作夥伴以及主要客戶共同開發的。因此，在目前的情況下，由於容量限制，我們與我們的合作夥伴以及客戶進行了積極的接觸，看看哪條路線將為您提供最有效的替代方案，以在最短的時間內滿足客戶的需求。這就是我們與領先的代工供應商建立的合作關係。

We have also gained confidence from multiple customers over years of product development, trial-and-error process, materials or different equipment set and the reliability. So in this round, as we can see, the OS ramp has been pretty successful. And we will continue to measure and monitor the progress of ramp-up to make sure the yield, the quality and the cost model are all in check.

經過多年的產品開發、反覆試驗過程、材料或不同的設備組以及可靠性，我們也獲得了多個客戶的信任。因此，在這一輪中，正如我們所看到的，作業系統的升級非常成功。我們將繼續衡量和監控產能提升的進度，以確保產量、品質和成本模型都受到控制。

We cannot give you the specific comment based on the number that you have outlined. However, if you go back to the CapEx number we have provided, I think you can clearly understand that we're trying to ramp up rapidly on the OS. The CoW has been engaged with multiple customers as well as with our foundry partner. So we have together with partner and customers, again, just to seek the best alternative way to fulfill the customer demand.

我們無法根據您所概述的數字向您提供具體評論。但是，如果您回顧我們提供的資本支出數字，我認為您可以清楚地了解到我們正在嘗試快速提升作業系統。 CoW 與多個客戶以及我們的代工合作夥伴進行了合作。因此，我們再次與合作夥伴和客戶一起尋求滿足客戶需求的最佳替代方式。

I think the -- we're not in a position to comment detail of the engagement model as well as the quantity. But over time, just to give you a rough number, at the beginning of the year, we estimated we will have about TWD250 million incremental advanced technology revenue. I also commented we are slightly ahead of that curve. So right now, that status is we are ahead of the original number. The momentum most likely will accelerate into next year. Also, as indicated by Joseph and Ken's comment, that we're adding the -- we're doubling the CapEx. In 2025, we will continue to monitor the situation, and based on the business landscape, that we will decide what will be the right way to do it. Okay?

我認為——我們無法評論參與模型的細節以及數量。但隨著時間的推移，給你一個粗略的數字，在今年年初，我們預計我們將有大約 2.5 億新台幣的增量先進技術收入。我還評論說我們稍微領先這條曲線。所以現在的狀態是我們領先原來的數字。這種勢頭很可能會加速到明年。此外，正如約瑟夫和肯的評論所示，我們正在增加——我們正在將資本支出增加一倍。 2025年，我們將繼續監控情況，並根據業務狀況決定正確的做法。好的？

Rick Hsu, Daiwa Securities.

Rick Hsu，大和證券。

Just my -- the first question is my usual housekeeping question about your utilization rate for wire bonding and the testing for Q2 and Q3. And also a little follow-up, when Ken say something about your advanced utilization rates was already full, what's your quantitative definition of the full? Thank you.

我的第一個問題是我常見的內務問題，涉及你們的引線鍵合利用率以及第二季和第三季的測驗。還有一點後續，當肯說你的高階利用率已經滿時，你對滿的定量定義是什麼？謝謝。

In terms of utilization in quarter two, we have both our packaging and testing running at slightly above 60%. And that ratio will go above 65% for both in quarter three. When we talk about full, we mean everything is being used up. All capacity -- (multiple speakers)

就第二季的使用率而言，我們的封裝和測試運行率略高於 60%。到第三季度，這一比例將超過 65%。當我們談論「滿」時，我們的意思是所有的東西都被用完了。所有容量--（多位發言者）

Adding to what Tien just mentioned, I think when we talk about expanding our capacity, we are talking about expanding capacity for all kinds of demand coming from our customer, whether SO, CoW, or OS or testing. Also, not just on the machinery itself, we're also adding spaces, factory spaces, new factory buildings that are being built or being putting on the stream, online. We are also investing heavily, like we're beefing up our R&D as well, making a lot of investment in R&D and also in terms of hiring talents. It's an all-around effort for us to meet the customer demand.

除了 Tien 剛才提到的之外，我認為當我們談論擴大產能時，我們談論的是擴大來自客戶的各種需求的能力，無論是 SO、CoW、作業系統還是測試。此外，不僅僅是機械本身，我們還增加了空間、工廠空間、正在建造或在線上投放的新廠房。我們也在大力投資，就像我們也在加強研發一樣，在研發方面以及在人才招募方面都進行了大量的投資。滿足客戶需求是我們全方位的努力。

All right. Thank you. The second question is about your CapEx. We see a very strong commitment in building the advanced package and testing capacity, such as on substrate and also the core equivalent. Would you worry about any potential risk of overflow business model, i.e., that when the foundries resolve their core bottleneck issue, will they cancel the outsourcing? I mean, what is about the overflow risk?

好的。謝謝。第二個問題是關於您的資本支出。我們看到了對建立先進封裝和測試能力的堅定承諾，例如基板和核心等效能力。您是否擔心商業模式溢出的潛在風險，即代工廠解決了核心瓶頸問題後，是否會取消外包？我的意思是，溢出風險是什麼？

Well, I think the business model, the -- of course, anything is possible. But the collaboration has been in place for many, many years. We're also very used to the up and down cycle. So in this round, really depends on the -- across the whole platform. We're looking at a multiple customer product development. There we look at their utilization and there the -- volume road map. Then we look at our investment. Of course, we will examine the flexibility of the investment we put in place.

嗯，我認為商業模式——當然，一切都有可能。但這種合作已經存在很多年了。我們也非常習慣上下循環。因此，在這一輪中，真正取決於整個平台。我們正在考慮多客戶產品開發。我們在那裡查看它們的利用率以及容量路線圖。然後我們看看我們的投資。當然，我們會檢查我們投資的靈活性。

So the nature of the OSAT business is we will build a flexible and fungible capacity, and that can be easily moved around to accommodate different product mix as is volume. So right now, we're quite confident the capacity we put in place will be here and will be very useful for our customers and our partners for quite a few years, at least. So the short answer is no, we don't worry about it.

因此，OSAT 業務的本質是我們將建立靈活且可替代的產能，並且可以輕鬆移動以適應不同的產品組合和數量。因此，現在，我們非常有信心我們所投入的產能將在這裡，並且至少在相當長的幾年內對我們的客戶和合作夥伴非常有用。所以簡短的回答是否定的，我們不擔心。

Brad Lin, BOA.

布拉德林，BOA。

I have two questions. So the first one is on the overseas expansion. So does the firm have any new thoughts on the US expansion? I know that we comment about overseas, but seems to -- well, we did not mention much about the US side. So on the new subsidy program by the US government and also the well increasing political dynamics there, so does ASE have any new thoughts on the US expansion? And also, we also see the expansion of the ISE labs there in California. Does that qualify for apply to the new subsidy programs?

我有兩個問題。所以第一個是海外擴張。那麼該公司對於美國擴張有什麼新的想法嗎？我知道我們評論海外，但似乎——嗯，我們沒有太多提及美國方面。那麼對於美國政府新的補貼計畫以及美國不斷升溫的政治動態，日月光對美國的擴張有什麼新的想法嗎？此外，我們也看到加州 ISE 實驗室的擴建。是否有資格申請新的補助計劃？

Just to give you an answer, the -- well, let me comment on the ISE facility. The ISE facility only has one purpose, that is to support the innovation at a chip level or at a system level in Silicon Valley for either AI or the future edge device or any advanced technology or high performance computing or silicon photonics or power management. So the lab is put in place to provide system-level testing, system-level development as well system-level reliability. The lab is in California, Silicon Valley. The main mission is to bridge whatever technology are available domestically in the US and whatever technology that are needed that are available globally.

只是為了給您一個答案，--好吧，讓我對 ISE 設施發表評論。 ISE 設施只有一個目的，即支援矽谷的晶片級或系統級創新，無論是人工智慧或未來邊緣設備或任何先進技術或高效能運算或矽光子學或電源管理。因此，實驗室的設立是為了提供系統級測試、系統級開發以及系統級可靠性。該實驗室位於加州矽谷。主要任務是連接美國國內可用的任何技術和全球可用的任何所需技術。

So the CHIPS Act office just announced the R&D funding as well as the manufacturing funding. We will consider how to apply. And for ISC and IC is similar with the Phase 3 or Phase 4, we will consider the CHIPS Act R&D as well as the manufacturing. The US high-volume manufacturing establishment are still being considered. We do not have a tangible plan yet, mainly because the customer request on the volume are still being investigated.

因此，CHIPS 法案辦公室剛剛宣布了研發資金和製造資金。我們將考慮如何申請。對於ISC和IC來說，與第三階段或第四階段類似，我們將考慮CHIPS法案的研發和製造。美國大批量生產基地仍在考慮中。我們還沒有具體的計劃，主要是因為客戶對數量的要求仍在調查中。

Got it. So can we say that, well, with recent developments, there is a higher possibility that we will do the so-called volume production side there?

知道了。那麼我們是否可以說，根據最近的事態發展，我們在那裡進行所謂的量產方面的可能性更大？

We do have a Mexico facility, and that is also available for North America. Just to give you the clarification.

我們確實在墨西哥設有工廠，該工廠也可用於北美。只是為了給你澄清。

Laura Chen, Citigroup.

勞拉陳，花旗集團。

I have questions about the gross margin trends. On one hand, we are seeing that we are accelerating our investment in the advanced packaging, but the broad based recovery on the traditional application seems to be -- remain muted. So my question is that how would we expect this advanced packaging investment to bear fruit? If it's reached the stated 5G array and also the loading, how would you see that will be the normalized gross margin? That's my first question. Thank you.

我對毛利率趨勢有疑問。一方面，我們看到我們正在加速對先進封裝的投資，但傳統應用的廣泛復甦似乎仍然溫和。所以我的問題是，我們如何期望這種先進封裝投資能產生成果？如果達到規定的 5G 陣列和負載，您如何看待標準化毛利率？這是我的第一個問題。謝謝。

As I mentioned earlier on, the CapEx that we're making for the leading-edge packaging and test, those investments are of higher margin -- or these investments are of accretive margin as well as return. So as we continue to grow that part of the business also on tests, I think it will help the overall margin for our ATM business as we -- as time goes on.

正如我之前提到的，我們為領先的封裝和測試進行的資本支出，這些投資具有更高的利潤——或者說這些投資具有增值的利潤和回報。因此，隨著我們在測試中繼續發展這部分業務，我認為隨著時間的推移，這將有助於提高我們 ATM 業務的整體利潤率。

So can we expect that there will be over -- like if the overall ATM business reached, say, like 80% utilization rate, usually, we can expect like 25% gross margin. But with the cohorts, if that's reached a satisfied utilization rate and also the loadings, that will be much higher than that what we expect before.

因此，我們是否可以預期，如果整體 ATM 業務達到 80% 的利用率，通常我們可以預期 25% 左右的毛利率。但對於隊列來說，如果達到滿意的利用率和負載，那將比我們之前預期的要高得多。

As such the capacity is of higher than the corporate average margin.

因此，產能高於企業平均利潤率。

Okay. Got it. Thank you. And also, my next question is on the EMS business. You mentioned that the better than expected near term is due to the earlier ramp for the new products. So do you expect the stability will continue into the peak seasons into Q4? Or can we expect that Q4 will be even stronger like the historical pattern?

好的。知道了。謝謝。另外，我的下一個問題是關於 EMS 業務。您提到，近期好於預期的情況是因為新產品較早推出。那麼您預計這種穩定會持續到第四季的旺季嗎？或者我們可以預期第四季會像歷史格局一樣更加強勁？

No, I think the first half versus second half pattern should be similar to a typical seasonality.

不，我認為上半年與下半年的模式應該類似於典型的季節性。

Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

盧小龍，高盛。

Thank you for taking my question. I think I want to ask again for the advanced packaging, all right? So Joseph used to comment that the CapEx to revenue ratio. Can you comment about like what is the CapEx revenue ratio for the advanced packaging? You spend a lot of money this year. How much revenue you can generate next year? In addition, TSMC commented that the advanced packaging gross margin is somehow approaching to the corporate average with 50%-plus, right? So can we expect -- is there any reason that we can assume that your gross -- your profitability was somehow similar with TSMC for your advanced packaging?

感謝您回答我的問題。我想我想再問一下高級包裝，可以嗎？因此約瑟夫經常評論資本支出與收入的比率。您能否評論一下先進封裝的資本支出收入比率是多少？今年你花了很多錢。明年你能創造多少收入？另外，台積電表示，先進封裝的毛利率已經接近企業平均水平，有50%以上，對嗎？那麼，我們是否可以預期──我們有什麼理由可以假設你們的毛利率──你們的獲利能力在某種程度上與台積電的先進封裝相似嗎？

I don't think we should make that kind of the simple comparison. Because TSMC, the packaging they do as was the business model are slightly different for ASE. Joseph has already talked about it. The four -- the OS that we're doing right now, the margin is higher than the ATM, the corporate average. That's where we're going to stand. We're not going to comment comparing to the TSMC margin because the equipment, the process, all of the -- everything they use are slightly different than the ASE.

我認為我們不應該進行這種簡單的比較。因為台積電，他們做的封裝和日月光的商業模式略有不同。約瑟夫已經談過了。四個－我們現在正在做的作業系統，利潤率高於ATM，也就是企業平均。這就是我們要站的地方。我們不會對與台積電利潤率的比較進行評論，因為他們使用的設備、工藝、所有的一切都與日月光略有不同。

Now in terms of the -- how do we bridge the dollar, I think normally, we're talking about the CapEx dollar, I think it's dollar for dollar.

現在就我們如何彌補美元而言，我認為通常我們談論的是資本支出美元，我認為這是美元兌美元。

So for advanced packaging, it's also dollar for dollar.

因此，對於先進封裝來說，也是一分錢一分貨。

That's the current supplement. We will actually need to -- once it gets to volume, then we will have better assessment of that. That seems to be still the case, yes.

這是目前的補充。我們實際上需要——一旦達到數量，我們就會對此有更好的評估。看來情況仍然如此，是的。

The second thing is that I want to ask about seasonality for your EMS business. I think the third quarter guidance seems to be a little bit lighter than historical seasonality. So what was the reason for lower seasonality because we didn't hear any delay for the flagship model smartphone. It's because of the smartphone or because of other applications?

第二件事是我想問你們EMS業務的季節性。我認為第三季的指導似乎比歷史季節性要輕一些。那麼季節性較低的原因是什麼，因為我們沒有聽說旗艦型號智慧型手機有任何延遲。是因為智慧型手機還是其他應用程式？

I think the people are expecting the new form (inaudible) people are sending an uptick on the shipment. So this quarter -- and because of the earlier launch of the product, we're seeing a better-than-expected second quarter. And that same kind of momentum should go into quarter three. But as a whole, the other general markets, the recovery is still a bit slow. So I think from a full-year perspective, I think EMS will have -- also have a muted year for the -- in terms of our top line.

我認為人們正在期待新的表格（聽不清楚），人們正在增加發貨量。因此，本季 - 由於該產品較早推出，我們看到第二季優於預期。第三季應該也會出現同樣的動能。但整體來看，其他一般市場的復甦還是有點緩慢。因此，我認為從全年的角度來看，就我們的營收而言，我認為 EMS 將會有一個平靜的一年。

(Operator Instructions) Jason Tsang, CLSA.

（操作員指示）Jason Tsang，里昂證券。

My first question is regarding on the proportion of your advanced packaging. Can you give us how many percentage is that advanced packaging account for your total revenue? And you mentioned about TWD250 million. Is that your target in coming years? Or is expectations on the contribution from advanced packaging in this year? Thank you.

我的第一個問題是關於你們先進封裝的比例。您能否告訴我們先進封裝佔您總收入的百分比是多少？你提到了大約2.5億新台幣。這是您未來幾年的目標嗎？還是對今年先進封裝貢獻的預期？謝謝。

As we guided before, this year we're expecting to double revenue in terms of leading edge packaging tests. And we are -- and the incremental revenue should be over TWD250 million. As Tien mentioned, we are currently slightly ahead of our schedule. And I think the momentum continues to be strong. And going into next year, we're expecting another doubling of revenue in this segment .

正如我們之前所指導的那樣，今年我們預計在前沿封裝測試方面的收入將翻倍。我們是——增量收入應該超過 2.5 億新台幣。正如 Tien 所提到的，我們目前比計劃稍微提前了一些。我認為這種勢頭仍然很強勁。進入明年，我們預計該領域的收入將再增加一倍。

Okay. Thank you. My second question --

好的。謝謝。我的第二個問題——

And the percentage of our leading-edge revenue is about 5% this year, growing from 2.5% to over 5% this year.

今年我們領先的營收佔比在5%左右，從2.5%成長到今年5%以上。

5% of ATM business, right?

ATM業務的5%，對嗎？

Correct.

正確的。

Okay. My second question is in terms of the industrial and auto business. Because practically, we merged the new fab from [ID] employers. And we know that currently, those segments remain weak. So have we found any synergy or upside coming from those kind of new business? Or can we comment that whether we see any improvements or recovery on those segments?

好的。我的第二個問題是關於工業和汽車業務的。因為實際上，我們合併了[ID]雇主的新工廠。我們知道，目前這些細分市場仍然薄弱。那麼，我們是否發現此類新業務有任何協同效應或優勢？或者我們可以評論一下我們是否看到這些細分市場有任何改善或復甦？

Well, I think in terms of auto, overall sentiment is still very soft. But we have been continuing our growth in the automotive business, largely because of the market share gain, which we are leveraging on our automation to continue to expand our market share. For this year, I think in terms of ATM, the automotive part of the business will represent roughly 11% of the overall sales. And we'll see the momentum continue to grow.

嗯，我認為就汽車而言，整體情緒仍然非常疲軟。但我們在汽車業務方面一直在持續成長，這主要是因為市場佔有率的增加，我們正在利用自動化來繼續擴大我們的市場份額。今年，我認為就 ATM 而言，汽車業務將佔整體銷售額的 11% 左右。我們將看到這種勢頭繼續增長。

Charlie Chan, Morgan Stanley.

陳查理，摩根士丹利。

So actually, two follow-up questions from me. So first of all, I think Tien seems to suggest that the new CapEx for advanced packaging margin should be above the corporate margin. But Joseph may clarify, is that both corporate average margin or above ATM margin?

實際上，我提出了兩個後續問題。首先，我認為 Tien 似乎建議先進封裝利潤率的新資本支出應高於公司利潤率。但約瑟夫可能會澄清，這是公司平均利潤率還是高於 ATM 利潤率？

Above corporate ATM margin.

高於企業 ATM 利潤。

Corporate ATM margin. Okay, okay. That's clear. Thanks. And yeah, also doubling this revenue next year, so it's doubling the 5% or doubling that USD250 million incremental revenue?

企業 ATM 保證金。好吧好吧。很清楚。謝謝。是的，明年的營收也會增加一倍，也就是說 5% 的營收增加一倍，或是 2.5 億美元的增量收入增加一倍？

Doubling, I mean, next year's leading-edge revenue will be doubling this year's leading-edge revenue.

我的意思是，明年的領先收入將是今年領先收入的兩倍。

Okay. So if this year is around 5%, next year, it should be close to 10% or more than 10%.

好的。所以如果今年是5%左右，明年應該會接近10%，甚至超過10%。

Well, we are expecting other parts of the business to grow as well. So that remains to be seen, yeah, whether it will be exactly 10% or a little over or a little under 10%.

嗯，我們預計業務的其他部分也會成長。所以，是的，到底是 10% 還是略高於或略低於 10%，還有待觀察。

Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs.

盧小龍，高盛。

I want to know again for the advanced packaging in terms of investment direction. Because in advanced packaging for me, there are like 10 different technology from TSMC, ASA, ORR, SOI, CPX or whatever. I mean, it seems to me it's very complicated. And how do you decide which one is the direction to go for ASE to invest? That's one thing.

我想再了解先進封裝方面的投資方向。因為對我來說，先進封裝有來自 TSMC、ASA、ORR、SOI、CPX 等 10 種不同的技術。我的意思是，在我看來這非常複雜。那麼您如何決定ASE投資的方向是哪一個呢？這是一回事。

The second thing was TSMC is talking about ramping up the panel level packaging in two years, so which means it could be the case that they don't want to invest in the current cohorts. Because in three years, they can migrate to panel and they've got to leave that to the current OSAT partner. So that could be a short-term business potentially. So how can we prevent this kind of risk or what is the direction to go to?

第二件事是台積電正在談論在兩年內提高面板級封裝，因此這意味著他們可能不想投資當前的群體。因為三年後，他們可以遷移到面板，並且必須將其留給當前的 OSAT 合作夥伴。因此，這可能是一項短期業務。那我們該如何防範這種風險或是往什麼方向發展呢？

It's a good question. For example, ASE has been working on the panel solution for over five years. Just to give you a status report. We started with a form factor of 300 millimeter by 300 millimeter square. We've been doing that with quite a few key customers for a number of years, qualified a few products. Then we decided the 300 millimeter by 300 millimeter will be naturally expanded to 600 by 600. And then we're doing a lot of study with customers, partners, equipment suppliers and materials.

這是一個好問題。例如，ASE 已經在面板解決方案上投入了五年以上的時間。只是為了給您一份狀態報告。我們從 300 毫米 x 300 毫米見方的外形開始。多年來，我們一直在與相當多的主要客戶合作，對一些產品進行了鑑定。然後我們決定將300毫米×300毫米自然擴展到600×600。

Right now, we have firmed up the business plan. So out of the CapEx that we talk about it, the 600 by 600 panel also is part of the overall CapEx that we make the investment. We believe that by second quarter of '25 next year, we will have all the equipment ready. In the meantime, we are collaborating with our partner as was customers in terms of the detail volume ramp. I think technology development typically will take 10 years.

目前，我們已經確定了商業計劃。因此，在我們談論的資本支出中，600 x 600 面板也是我們投資的總體資本支出的一部分。我們相信到明年25年第二季度，我們將把所有設備準備好。同時，我們正在與我們的合作夥伴以及客戶就細節量的提升進行合作。我認為技術開發通常需要10年的時間。

In terms of the volume readiness, that's always the tricky part. How do we do the overall CapEx, whether OS, CoW, panel or different kind of equivalent of technology, that's really the IP of OSAT. We have to work with partners as well as multiple customers, not a single customer or a single partner. Now there will be fungibility between all of the technology: the common usage, the sheer usage, and the flexibility to convert, if needed. I don't think easy to say when technology can easily replace another technology. Each technology will cater for a different set of target customers. So when you talk about the cohorts, there will be different level cohorts, you already said that.

就容量準備情況而言，這始終是棘手的部分。我們如何進行整體資本支出，無論是作業系統、CoW、面板或不同類型的等效技術，這實際上是 OSAT 的 IP。我們必須與合作夥伴以及多個客戶合作，而不是與單一客戶或單一合作夥伴合作。現在，所有技術之間都將具有可替代性：共同用途、純粹用途以及根據需要轉換的靈活性。我認為很難說技術什麼時候可以輕易取代另一種技術。每種技術都將迎合不同的目標客戶群。所以當你談論群體時，會有不同層次的群體，你已經說過了。

Even with the panel, the panel we're targeting at different line width, different lines of space. Each one is different. It's very complicated. But our job is to prepare the whole portfolio of toolbox, whatever the customer have a specific product mix they need to ramp. We are readily available to do that ramp for them. And that's why we need to work very closely with our foundry partner as well customers because it's a very, very dynamic time. And you can't really know a priori what the volume mix is going to be. But our job is to make sure we have all of the technology development, we have all the building ready. And then when we need to, then our team will be very busy to convert one line to another or the other back to another just to make sure we have the operational efficiency.

即使是面板，我們針對的面板也是不同的線寬、不同的線間距。每一個都是不同的。這非常複雜。但我們的工作是準​​備整個工具箱組合，無論客戶有什麼需要提升的特定產品組合。我們隨時可以為他們做斜坡。這就是為什麼我們需要與代工合作夥伴以及客戶密切合作，因為這是一個非常非常充滿活力的時代。而且你無法真正先驗地知道音量混合將會是什麼。但我們的工作是確保我們擁有所有的技術開發，我們已經準備好所有的建設。然後，當我們需要時，我們的團隊將非常忙於將一條生產線轉換為另一條生產線，或將另一條生產線轉換回另一條生產線，以確保我們的營運效率。

Your panel size seems to be different with TSMC what's trying to do. Is that going to be different? Is there going to be an issue?

你的面板尺寸似乎與台積電試圖做的不同。那會有所不同嗎？會不會有問題啊？

I'm not going to comment on TSMC's panel size. I think you have to ask TSMC. But ASE is pretty determined. We will do 600 by 600. Our customer seems to be comfortable with that dimension. The equipment will be different. The process will be different. But again, as I said, we cannot say one panel, there is no universal definition of any process. Well, ASE is working on the 600 by 600 as a certain feature size, as a certain cost model. And then we are working with our partner as well as our customer to make sure they're comfortable.

我不會評論台積電的面板尺寸。我想你得問台積電。但 ASE 的決心相當堅定。我們將生產 600 x 600。裝備會有所不同。過程會有所不同。但正如我所說，我們不能說一個小組，任何過程都沒有通用的定義。嗯，ASE 正在開發 600 x 600 作為特定的特徵尺寸和特定的成本模型。然後我們與我們的合作夥伴以及客戶合作，確保他們感到舒適。

Can you disclose the predication for the panels customer? Is this is for power management or for AI or --?

能透露一下對面板客戶的預測嗎？這是為了電源管理還是為了人工智慧或者——？

Actually, it's for all of the above.

事實上，它是為了以上所有的目的。

I see. Okay. My next question is for gross margin in the second half. I think, Joseph, you mentioned that in the second half, ATM gross -- (technical difficulty)

我懂了。好的。我的下一個問題是下半年的毛利率。我想，約瑟夫，你提到下半年，ATM 毛利率－（技術難度）

Gokul Hariharan.

戈庫爾·哈里哈蘭。

Hey, I had one quick question. On your smartphone segment, which is the largest segment, I think, Joseph, you talked about some improvement in demand from a particular set of customers. Could you talk a little bit about what is the status of the smartphone segment, both for high-end SoC as well as for other auxillary products. How is the inventory level? And are you seeing a more broad-based enthusiasm from customers to actually order more? Or things are still quite sluggish?

嘿，我有一個簡單的問題。關於您的智慧型手機細分市場，我認為這是最大的細分市場，約瑟夫，您談到了特定客戶群需求的一些改善。您能否談談智慧型手機領域的現狀，包括高階 SoC 和其他輔助產品。庫存水準如何？您是否看到客戶對實際訂購更多產品的熱情更加廣泛？或者事情仍然相當緩慢？

Second part of that is for Tien. Tien, I think you talked about the toolbox of portfolio of packaging technologies that you have. Smartphone has been an area where the packaging technology has largely been stagnant for quite some time, I guess. Could you talk a little bit about are we seeing anything in the horizon where packaging technology could evolve towards something similar to the 2D to 2.5D fan-out for the smartphone segment in the next couple of years?

第二部分是給田的。 Tien，我想您談到了您擁有的封裝技術組合工具箱。我想，智慧型手機領域的封裝技術在相當長一段時間內一直停滯不前。您能否談談我們是否看到封裝技術可能在未來幾年朝著類似於智慧型手機領域的 2D 到 2.5D 扇出的方向發展？

Okay. The first question is regarding the cellphone. And this year, we're seeing an uptick on cellphone. If we look at the Q3 and Q4 forecast, the cellphone is ramping up in the -- just overall. So I think overall, this year, the cellphone over shipment, I mean, we're not in the position to come on that. But based on the forecast we're looking at, it seems to be moderately positive comparing to, for example, automotive and industrial. Okay. That's the first comment.

好的。第一個問題是關於手機的。今年，我們看到手機的使用量增加。如果我們看一下第三季和第四季的預測，手機的整體銷售正在成長。所以我認為總體而言，今年手機的出貨量過剩，我的意思是，我們無法應對這個問題。但根據我們正在研究的預測，與汽車和工業等領域相比，它似乎是適度積極的。好的。這是第一條評論。

In terms of the toolbox, also the -- how could cellphone specifically, that segment, can utilize some of the new technology we put in place. We believe on the technology road map, with all of the AI initiative, overtime, you have two type of devices. First, when do we expect the high-performance computing type of architecture to permeate into the cellphone. That will be the first question.

就工具箱而言，特別是手機，也就是該細分市場，如何能夠利用我們採用的一些新技術。我們相信，在技術路線圖上，隨著所有人工智慧措施的實施，隨著時間的推移，您將擁有兩種類型的設備。首先，我們預期高效能運算類型的架構何時會滲透到手機中。這是第一個問題。

And we believe with all of the AI features coming in, if the market response is very good, I'm pretty sure the leading cellphone technology suppliers will start adding either more higher level of memory or higher-level -- bigger chips into it. If that is the case, then the current technology that's only be applicable to high-performance computing naturally will take some shape into the cellphone market.

我們相信，隨著所有人工智慧功能的出現，如果市場反應非常好，我很確定領先的手機技術供應商將開始添加更高層級的記憶體或更高階的更大晶片。如果是這樣，那麼目前只適用於高效能運算的技術自然會在手機市場上有所體現。

Now the second type of thing will be the edge device. I think one of the earlier comment that we did not get a chance to answer is with all of the fabs, I think statistically, we have like 84 fabs coming up right now. They're pretty much in the traditional, not the leading edge. So in the next few years, with all of this traditional fab capacity coming online, how do we balance the semiconductor over demand versus supplier. I think the general industry view is, with AI at the top, over the next few years, there will be more edge devices such as autonomous driving, such as robots, such as drones, start coming out.

現在第二種類型的東西將是邊緣設備。我認為我們沒有機會回答的早期評論之一是所有晶圓廠，我認為從統計數據來看，我們現在有大約 84 家晶圓廠即將建成。它們幾乎處於傳統領域，而不是前沿領域。因此，在接下來的幾年中，隨著所有這些傳統晶圓廠產能的上線，我們如何平衡半導體的需求與供應商。我認為業界普遍的看法是，以人工智慧為主導，未來幾年，將會有更多的邊緣設備，例如自動駕駛，例如機器人，例如無人機，開始問世。

Now in any kind of edge device or edge device system, you will utilize a lot of actuator, MEMS, sensors, microcontrollers in an integrated and hydrogenous integration fashion. So if you think about the potential robots, the potential autonomous driving, the potential drones, they will use a lot of conventional semiconductor devices as well as the AI engine or the AI brain. Now the semi -- talked about it. In 2030, '31, '32, the industry will hit about $1 trillion. If we want to hit $1 trillion, naturally, we will use up all of the fab in the leading edge as well as the traditional package level.

現在，在任何類型的邊緣設備或邊緣設備系統中，您將以整合和氫整合的方式使用大量執行器、MEMS、感測器、微控制器。因此，如果你考慮潛在的機器人、潛在的自動駕駛、潛在的無人機，它們將使用大量傳統的半導體裝置以及人工智慧引擎或人工智慧大腦。現在半--談論它。到2030年，'31'，'32，該行業將達到約1兆美元。如果我們想達到1兆美元，自然，我們將使用所有領先的晶圓廠以及傳統封裝等級的晶圓廠。

And the OSAT or ASE, all of the automation that we put in place, all of the building blocks we put in place are targeted to capture not only the high-performance computing as well as the next generation AI brain to the edge device as well as to robotic fingers for all of the heterogeneous integration or any kind of existing package that our customers or system designer would like to do. It's a very long answer to your question, but I hope that's comprehensive.

OSAT 或 ASE、我們實施的所有自動化、我們實施的所有構建模組的目標不僅是捕獲高效能運算，還包括邊緣設備的下一代人工智慧大腦至於用於所有異質集成的機器人手指或我們的客戶或系統設計人員想要做的任何類型的現有封裝。對於你的問題，這是一個很長的答案，但我希望這是全面的。

Yeah, that's very clear. So one follow-up on that, Tien, is if you had to hazard a guess, when do you think smartphone or cellphone SoC starts using chiplet? Is it in the next two years, next three years? Or is it much further than that in terms of technology readiness and market acceptance?

是的，這很清楚。 Tien 的一個後續問題是，如果您必須冒險猜測一下，您認為智慧型手機或手機 SoC 何時開始使用小晶片？是未來兩年、未來三年嗎？或者說在技術準備度和市場接受度方面是否比這更進一步？

I think the chiplet has already started. The chiplet really is a concept. In other words, when you have -- when you start integrating chip, it becomes a chiplet. So today, we're seeing the chiplet architectures in a supercomputing, high-performance computing. But even when you clearly go to the electrical vehicle or as the current generation of cellphone, you can pretty much argue this is the beginning of the chiplet. So I think the chiplet concept, the platform are being validated by the market. Over time, I think the chiplet will become more pervasive.

我認為小晶片已經開始了。 Chiplet確實是一個概念。換句話說，當你開始整合晶片時，它就變成了小晶片。今天，我們看到了超級運算、高效能運算中的小晶片架構。但即使您明確轉向電動車或當前一代手機，您幾乎可以說這是小晶片的開始。所以我認為小晶片的概念和平台正在得到市場的驗證。隨著時間的推移，我認為小晶片將變得更加普遍。

Therefore, the hydrogenous integration, the power management, the embedded, all of this technology that we're developing today will become very useful. And that's where the panel, for example -- the panel, I did not get a chance to comment, we think about, at the power management level, there will be a lot of integrated devices, integrated package. They're thinking about it. So the panel needs to be lower cost, flexible enough to accommodate the power management integrated package, but also needs to go high enough to accommodate the current form of high-performance computing.

因此，氫整合、電源管理、嵌入式，我們今天正在開發的所有這些技術都將變得非常有用。這就是面板，例如面板，我沒有機會發表評論，我們認為，在電源管理層面，會有很多整合裝置、整合封裝。他們正在考慮。因此面板需要成本更低、足夠靈活以容納電源管理整合封裝，而且還需要足夠高以容納當前的高效能運算形式。

But any kind of package will have a different set of target customer. If you're talking about 3D, you're talking about 2.5D or interposer, that feature size can continue to move up, become smaller and smaller, to get the proportional to the lithography and also the density requirement. So our job is to make sure we have a whole spectrum of technology in our pocket. Whenever the customer comes in, they need 10% of high end, 40% of mid-end, and 50% of low end, we can easily provide them a comprehensive selection of tools in an automative manner.

但任何一種套餐都會有不同的目標客群。如果你談論的是 3D，你談論的是 2.5D 或中介層，特徵尺寸可以繼續向上移動，變得越來越小，以獲得與光刻和密度要求成正比的比例。因此，我們的工作是確保我們擁有全套技術。每當客戶進來時，他們需要10%的高端、40%的中端、50%的低端，我們可以輕鬆地以自動化的方式為他們提供全面的工具選擇。

(Operator Instructions) We have a question from Bruce Lu. Bruce, sorry about interrupting your question earlier. Please keep two questions at a time. Thank you.

（操作員說明）Bruce Lu 向我們提出了一個問題。布魯斯，很抱歉剛才打斷了你的問題。請一次保留兩個問題。謝謝。

Just one quick question. Joseph, you did mention that earlier, the second-half gross margin for ATM will go back to 25%, 30% due to better product mix, better testing, more events. It seems to be slightly lower than guidance. Can we expect that to go back to 25%, 30% in gross margin in fourth quarter? What slows us down for the gross margin recovery?

只是一個簡單的問題。 Joseph，您之前確實提到，由於更好的產品組合、更好的測試、更多的活動，ATM下半年的毛利率將回到25%、30%。似乎比指導值略低。我們能否預期第四季毛利率會回到25%、30%？是什麼阻礙了我們毛利率的復甦？

I think the overall recovery was slower than we were expecting. And because of the volume shortage or the gap, we are now -- the margin prospect for the second half seems to be a little bit lower than what we were originally expecting. We do expect that going into fourth quarter, we should be able to go back into our structural margin range and when the overall utilization goes beyond 70%. And as I mentioned, it's more challenging now. But I think for the whole year, we're still trying to struggle to see if we can still reach the lower edge of the structural margin, which is about 24%.

我認為整體復甦比我們預期的要慢。由於數量短缺或缺口，我們現在——下半年的利潤率前景似乎比我們最初的預期要低一些。我們確實預計，進入第四季度，當整體利用率超過 70% 時，我們應該能夠回到結構性利潤範圍。正如我所提到的，現在更具挑戰性。但我認為全年來看，我們仍在努力看看是否仍能達到結構性利潤率的下限，即 24% 左右。

But not -- but the product mix improvement and more testing revenue is still intact in third quarter, is that right?

但事實並非如此，但產品組合的改善和更多的測試收入在第三季仍然完好無損，對嗎？

I'm sorry, the what?

對不起，什麼？

The more testing revenue or the more advanced packaging contribution in third quarter is still intact? Just the traditional packaging, that you guys are trying to get lower. That was the main reason for lower gross margin in third quarter. Is that right understanding?

第三季更多的測試收入或更先進的封裝貢獻仍然完好無損嗎？只是傳統的包裝，你們正在努力降低。這是第三季毛利率下降的主要原因。這樣的理解正確嗎？

That's correct. In terms of testing, we are progressing as planned. But the overall general market recovery seems to be slower. That's dragging our margin a bit, yes.

這是正確的。在測試方面，我們正在按計劃進行。但整體市場復甦似乎較慢。是的，這有點拖累了我們的利潤。

There is no question from the floor.

與會者沒有提出任何問題。

Okay. If there's no more questions, we will end the conference call today. Thank you very much for attending, and we will see you next quarter. Thank you.

好的。如果沒有其他問題，我們將結束今天的電話會議。非常感謝您的出席，我們下季再見。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。