日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Hello. I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holdings. Welcome to our second quarter 2025 earnings release. Thank you for attending our earnings release today.

你好。我是日月光科技控股有限公司投資者關係主管 Ken Hsiang。歡迎閱讀我們 2025 年第二季的財報。感謝您參加我們今天的收益發表會。

Please refer to our Safe Harbor notice on page 2. All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation in this event. If participants do not consent, please do not ask questions or you may leave the session at this time.

請參閱第 2 頁的安全港通知。所有參與者均同意透過參與本次活動來傳播他們的聲音和問題。如果參與者不同意，請不要提問，或者您可以立即離開會議。

I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk, and our actual results may differ materially. For the purposes of this presentation, dollar figures are generally stated in new Taiwan dollars, unless otherwise indicated. As a Taiwan-based company, our financial information is presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS. Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP.

我想提醒大家，接下來的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述具有高度風險，我們的實際結果可能有重大差異。為了本簡報的目的，除非另有說明，美元數字通常以新台幣表示。作為一家台灣公司，我們的財務資訊是按照台灣國際財務報告準則呈現的。採用台灣國際財務報告準則所呈現的結果可能與採用其他會計準則所呈現的結果有重大差異，包括我們的子公司採用中國公認會計準則所呈現的結果。

I'm joined today by Dr. Tien Wu, our COO; and Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's presentation, Dr. Wu will go over our midyear update. I then will go over the financial results, and Joseph will deliver the company's guidance and closing remarks. Afterwards, both Tien and Joseph will be available to take your questions during the Q&A session. I will be moderating the Q&A sessions that follow. We will start with some questions from the floor and then start alternating in some questions from virtual attendees.

今天與我一起出席的還有我們的營運長 Tien Wu 博士和財務長 Joseph Tung。在今天的演講中，吳博士將介紹我們的年中更新情況。然後我將介紹財務結果，約瑟夫將提供公司指導和結束語。之後，Tien 和 Joseph 將在問答環節回答您的問題。我將主持接下來的問答環節。我們將從現場的一些問題開始，然後交替回答虛擬與會者的一些問題。

With that, I'll hand the presentation over to Dr. Wu.

現在，我將演講交給吳醫師。

Good afternoon. We have not had a live one for quite a few years. Welcome back, and thank you for coming. To begin with, I would like to give you a recap for the first half of 2025.

午安.我們已經好幾年沒有見過活的了。歡迎回來，感謝您的光臨。首先，我想對2025年上半年的情況做個回顧。

Everything will be in US dollar terms. The unconsolidated revenue grew 9% year-on-year in first half of 2025, with ATM revenues up 18% year-on-year. Leading-edge advanced packaging and overall testing outpaced growth, while the general segment saw some recovery.

一切都將以美元計算。2025年上半年非合併收入較去年同期成長9%，其中ATM營收年增18%。尖端封裝和整體測試領域成長速度超過預期，而一般領域則會出現一些復甦。

The leading -edge advanced packaging and testing revenue were over 10% of ATM revenues in the first half of 2025 comparing to 6% for the full year of 2024. Our testing business grew 31% year-on-year in the first half. The momentum will continue into second half on increased turnkey and expanding leading-edge test. Machinery CapEx was USD1.9 billion, building factory facility automation was $0.9 billion in the first half of 2025, driven by advanced packaging and testing.

2025 年上半年，尖端封裝和測試收入佔 ATM 收入的 10% 以上，而 2024 年全年這一比例為 6%。上半年我們的測試業務年增31%。隨著交鑰匙工程的增加和前沿測試的擴大，這一勢頭將持續到下半年。2025 年上半年，機械資本支出為 19 億美元，建築工廠設施自動化為 9 億美元，主要受先進封裝和測試的推動。

So that is the first half recap. It has been quite busy for ASE team. The second half will be busier. Let me give you the outlook.

這是上半部的回顧。ASE 團隊最近相當忙碌。下半年會更加忙碌。讓我給你一個展望。

For the ATM business, we expect momentum to carry into Q3. As of now, we also believe Q4 will have a quarter-to-quarter growth comparing to Q3. The leading-edge advanced packaging and testing revenue, we target to increase by USD1 billion. We made a statement at the early beginning of this year, contributing 10% of the whole year growth, while the general segment to grow by mid- to high single digit year-on-year in 2025.

對於 ATM 業務，我們預計這一勢頭將持續到第三季。截至目前，我們也認為第四季與第三季相比將實現環比成長。尖端封裝測試收入，我們的目標是增加10億美元。我們在今年年初就做出承諾，貢獻全年增長10%，而通用部分到2025年將實現中高個位數的同比增長。

We maintain this view as of now. Even with all of the uncertainties that we have gone through, this view has not changed. We expect revenue uptrend continuing into 2026 and beyond, driven by leading-edge solutions and broad-based semiconductor demand related to AI proliferation, also general recovery that we believe will happen in 2026. Investment in R&D, human capital, advanced capacity and smart factory infrastructures are key to support the multiyear growth.

我們目前仍維持這一觀點。即使我們經歷了所有的不確定性，這種觀點也沒有改變。我們預期營收上升趨勢將持續到 2026 年及以後，這得益於前沿解決方案和與人工智慧擴散相關的廣泛半導體需求，同時我們相信 2026 年將出現全面復甦。對研發、人力資本、先進產能和智慧工廠基礎設施的投資是支持多年成長的關鍵。

This is putting a lot of pressure on ASE team. However, with detailed conversation discussion with our key partners and all of our key customers, we believe this is the best thing that we can do for ASE, for the Taiwan ecosystem as well as for the industry. With that, let me go over to the third page. The third page, I only have bullet form.

這給ASE團隊帶來了很大的壓力。然而，透過與我們的主要合作夥伴和所有主要客戶進行詳細的對話討論，我們相信這是我們能為日月光、台灣生態系統以及整個行業做的最好的事情。說完這些，讓我翻到第三頁。第三頁，我只有項目符號形式。

I would like to talk about three items: Market dynamics, operations and also the challenge. I might not go over things in the right order, but these are the bullet points I would like to cover. To begin with, I want to talk about how do we see the market heading and what is the current dynamics and also the future opportunities for ASE as was for many players in our industry. I want to touch on the technology focus because that's related to the market trend, also related to the ASE position.

我想談三個面向：市場動態、營運以及挑戰。我可能沒有按照正確的順序講解，但這些是我想要講解的要點。首先，我想談談我們如何看待市場走向，目前的動態是什麼，以及 ASE 的未來機遇，就像我們產業中的許多參與者一樣。我想談談技術重點，因為這與市場趨勢有關，也與 ASE 的地位有關。

Then I'll cover the operation where the leading-edge capacity and all capacity in general in Taiwan is very full now. That's why we have to continue to expand into the second half. The overseas, we still have some idle capacity. Therefore, how do we manage the expansion in Taiwan as was outside of Taiwan and the resource optimization becomes key.

然後我將介紹目前台灣的前沿產能和整體產能都非常滿的營運狀況。這就是為什麼我們必須在下半年繼續擴張。在海外，我們還有一些閒置產能。因此，如何像在台灣以外地區一樣管理在台灣的擴張並優化資源成為關鍵。

And lastly, all of the challenges, I will touch base on that. Okay. With that, let me just go over the megatrend. Everybody talks about AI, hyperscaler, data center.

最後，我將談及所有挑戰。好的。下面，讓我簡單回顧一下大趨勢。每個人都在談論人工智慧、超大規模、資料中心。

We're well into, I would say, the second of the three year of this trend. The recent announcement outside of US, you're seeing the announcement of mega data center worldwide. We believe there are two things that are happening. The first is the expansion of hyperscaler data centers worldwide.

我想說，我們已經進入了這股趨勢的第三年。您會看到最近在美國以外發布的有關全球大型資料中心的公告。我們相信有兩件事正在發生。首先是全球超大規模資料中心的擴張。

The second thing is in the middle of that expansion, the upgrade cycle are ongoing right now with the technology provider as well as the infrastructure provider. We have not touched based on the AI edge applications yet, but we believe there will be multiple waves in the next 10 years, starting with the hyperscaler data centers and then go through the inference and then go through the AI edge applications. What are important is in this AI paradigm shift, what has become clear to us by talking to our foundry partner and also talking to our key customers, some of the foundational technology requirements are identical. I'm going to give you four.

第二件事是，在擴張的過程中，技術提供者和基礎設施提供者的升級週期正在進行中。我們還沒有觸及基於 AI 邊緣應用的領域，但我們相信未來 10 年將會出現多波浪潮，從超大規模資料中心開始，然後經過推理，再經過 AI 邊緣應用。重要的是，在這種人工智慧範式轉變中，透過與我們的代工合作夥伴以及主要客戶的交談，我們清楚地認識到，一些基礎技術要求是相同的。我要給你四個。

The first one is integration. I think the 3D IC packaging, the density that is an example of the heterogenous integration that we've been working on this for a long time. The focus offered by ASE, the CoWoS offered by TSMC are examples of that integration. That trend will continue with the expansion as well with the upgrade cycle.

第一個是整合。我認為 3D IC 封裝、密度是我們長期致力於的異質整合的一個例子。日月光提供的重點、台積電提供的 CoWoS 就是這種整合的例子。這一趨勢將隨著擴張和升級週期而持續下去。

The second thing is the power management. We have not touch based on the power management. We believe power management is going to be a key hurdle that the industry needs to address. The third one is the silicon photonics.

第二件事是電源管理。我們還沒有觸及基於電源管理的內容。我們相信電源管理將成為業界需要解決的關鍵障礙。第三個是矽光子學。

I think we've been talking about very vocal on the importance of silicon photonics. We have not seen the revenue uptick yet. But this is a foundational technology that will provide the bandwidth, the speed, latency and the efficiency. It needs to happen in order to trigger even more applications such as humanoid.

我認為我們一直在積極談論矽光子學的重要性。我們尚未看到收入上升。但這是一項基礎技術，它將提供頻寬、速度、延遲和效率。為了觸發更多應用（例如人形機器人），它必須發生。

And lastly, will be the cost. In the cost, not only what you think about capacity, what do you think about material configuration, more importantly, we have to think about throughput and also the flexibility in designing the footprint and that's where the large panel coming in. If we have gone through all the foundational requirements, that we're going back to the ASE position. And there are 3 things I want to share with you how I view the ASE position, how I articulate ASE's position to our key partner and clients.

最後是成本。在成本方面，不僅要考慮產能，還要考慮材料配置，更重要的是，我們必須考慮吞吐量以及設計佔地面積的靈活性，這就是大面板的用武之地。如果我們已經滿足了所有基礎要求，那麼我們將回到 ASE 的位置。我想與大家分享三件事，關於我如何看待 ASE 的地位，以及如何向我們的關鍵合作夥伴和客戶闡明 ASE 的地位。

The first one is scale. I think from the news report, you can look at ASE scale, margin model as well as our cash flow and also the amount of CapEx investment we are making on behalf of the industry. The second item is speed. Because ASE is well positioned within the Taiwan ecosystems, that we will execute expansion in the second to none.

第一個是規模。我認為從新聞報道中，您可以了解 ASE 的規模、利潤模型以及我們的現金流，以及我們代表行業進行的資本支出投資金額。第二項是速度。由於日月光在台灣生態系統中佔據有利地位，因此我們將以無與倫比的方式進行擴張。

In other words, it's very difficult to imagine in 2025 alone how much CapEx we have put in, how much more revenue we are going to introduce. The third one will be the synergy. So between scale, speed and synergy that pretty much outlined the ASE position in this new paradigm AI shift. We're at the beginning of the data center hyperscaler.

換句話說，光是 2025 年就很難想像我們投入了多少資本支出，將帶來多少收入。第三個是協同效應。因此，規模、速度和協同作用幾乎概括了 ASE 在這種新範式 AI 轉變中的地位。我們正處於資料中心超大規模發展的初期。

In the future, there will be multiple cycles of expansion, upgrade, inference as well as the AI edge, that's where the real volume and the real application is going to emerge. Because all of these future opportunities, we are seeing the leading edge capacities in Taiwan is very, very full right now. We do see the disparity between AI as well as the other general sectors, and that pretty much outlined the 2025 fist half scenario. In the second half, the disparity will improve.

未來將會有多個擴展、升級、推理以及人工智慧邊緣的循環，真正的規模和真正的應用將會出現。由於所有這些未來的機會，我們看到台灣的前沿產能現在非常非常充足。我們確實看到了人工智慧與其他一般領域之間的差異，這幾乎概述了 2025 年上半年的情景。下半年，差距將會縮小。

In 2026 and beyond, we believe the cycle will start showing less of a disparity. That is why it is putting a lot of pressure on ASE to accelerate on the capacity growth in Taiwan, especially in the leading-edge packaging and testing. At the same time, it prompt us to look at resource optimization between Taiwan and overseas. We have planned to looking at expansions in other countries of the world.

我們相信，到 2026 年及以後，週期差異將開始縮小。這就是為什麼日月光面臨巨大壓力，需要加速台灣的產能成長，特別是在尖端封裝和測試領域。同時也促使我們檢視台灣與海外的資源優化配置。我們計劃考慮在世界其他國家擴張。

with all the recent updates and changes, it prompt us to start looking at the business opportunities versus how do we deploy our capital and resources based on the new paradigm as well as all the new variables. And lastly, foreign exchange. Foreign exchange, I think Ken Hsiang and Joseph will give you much, much more details on the impact of foreign exchange on ASE's performance for last quarter and maybe for Q3. And However, I want all of you to keep in mind, we are here for the long term.

隨著最近的更新和變化，它促使我們開始尋找商業機會，而不是如何根據新範式和所有新變數部署我們的資本和資源。最後是外匯。外匯，我認為 Ken Hsiang 和 Joseph 會向您提供更多關於外匯對 ASE 上季度以及第三季度業績的影響的詳細信息。然而，我希望大家記住，我們會長期在這裡。

In the long term, we will have execution issues. We'll have regulatory control issues. We will have product mix issues. We have customers changing order issues.

長遠來看，我們會面臨執行問題。我們將面臨監管控制問題。我們將會遇到產品組合問題。我們遇到了客戶更改訂單的問題。

Of course, we will also have machine delivery issues and our own execution issues. When the management team is busy worrying about all the detailed operational issues, let's not forget the future opportunities here and the speed, execution, we would like to take all of the ASE partner and our customer to a much higher ground for this uptick, 10 years of AI cycles.

當然，我們也會遇到機器交付的問題，以及我們自己的執行問題。當管理團隊忙於擔心所有細節營運問題時，我們不要忘記未來的機會、速度和執行力，我們希望帶領所有 ASE 合作夥伴和我們的客戶在這個 10 年的 AI 週期中走上更高的台階。

With that, thank you.

就這樣吧，謝謝大家。

Thank you, Dr. Wu. Now I will go over our prepared remarks in regards to our financial results for the second quarter. We are trying to be more environmentally friendly.

謝謝您，吳醫師。現在，我將回顧我們關於第二季財務業績的準備好的發言。我們正在努力變得更環保。

We are no longer providing printed copies of our slides. If you have not done so, we have a QR code, the QR code, please, here for the attendees to scan. After scanning, you'll be forwarded to our Investor Relations landing page where you can download materials related to the presentation today. The slide deck currently does not include our guidance section.

我們不再提供幻燈片的印刷版。如果您還沒有這樣做，我們有一個二維碼，請點擊此處，供與會者掃描。掃描後，您將被轉發到我們的投資者關係登陸頁面，您可以在此下載與今天演示相關的資料。幻燈片目前不包含我們的指導部分。

After the presentation has concluded, the slide deck will be updated to include our guidance section. During the quarter, we saw a material move in the NT dollar to US dollar exchange rate. The NT dollar moved from an average exchange rate of TWD32.8 to TWD31.2 per US dollar strengthening by 4.9%, with our revenues generally based in US dollars, and a large percentage of our ATM expenses being NT dollar based. The foreign exchange fluctuation was detrimental to our financial performance. The impact of currency fluctuation will differ each quarter.

演示結束後，幻燈片將更新以包含我們的指導部分。本季度，我們看到新台幣兌美元的匯率出現了重大波動。新台幣兌美元的平均匯率從32.8新台幣升至31.2新台幣，升值了4.9%，我們的收入通常以美元計算，我們的ATM支出很大一部分也是以新台幣計算的。外匯波動對我們的財務表現造成不利影響。每個季度貨幣波動的影響都會有所不同。

However, on a simplified basis, we estimate that for every percentage point appreciation of the NT dollar relative to the US dollar, we see a corresponding 0.3 percentage point negative impact to our gross and operating margins at the holding company level and a 0.45 percentage point negative impact to margins at the ATM level. Using this simplified approach, we can estimate that on a sequential basis, foreign exchange had impacts to our holding company and ATM margins of 1.5 and 2.2 percentage points, respectively. On an annual basis, we estimate impacts to our holding company and ATM margins of 1.0 and 1.5 percentage points, respectively.

然而，簡單來說，我們估計新台幣兌美元每公升值一個百分點，控股公司層面的毛利率和營業利率就會受到 0.3 個百分點的負面影響，ATM 層面的利潤率則會受到 0.45 個百分點的負面影響。使用這種簡化方法，我們可以估計，按順序計算，外匯對我們的控股公司和 ATM 利潤率的影響分別為 1.5 個百分點和 2.2 個百分點。從年度角度來看，我們估計這對我們的控股公司和 ATM 利潤率的影響分別為 1.0 和 1.5 個百分點。

As Dr. Wu stressed, our businesses are healthy and are generally on track to hitting most of our targets stated at the beginning of the year. However, foreign exchange movements have created a temporary misalignment between our costs and revenues. And as a result, we believe that our current financial results may not fully portray our underlying accomplishments.

正如吳博士所強調的，我們的業務狀況良好，總體上有望實現年初制定的大部分目標。然而，外匯波動導致我們的成本和收入暫時失調。因此，我們認為目前的財務表現可能無法完全反映我們的基本成就。

From a strategic perspective, we believe the current negative currency impact to be a near- to mid-term phenomenon financially. We fundamentally believe our businesses support a certain level of financial return. Such return expectations are intrinsic within our business evaluation and capital investment processes. The exchange rates we encounter are variables used within these calculations.

從策略角度來看，我們認為當前的負面貨幣影響在財務上是一個近期至中期現象。我們從根本上相信我們的業務支持一定程度的財務回報。這種回報預期是我們業務評估和資本投資流程中固有的。我們遇到的匯率是這些計算中使用的變數。

As such, in time, we believe our margin structure can and will return to previously stated structural levels. With that said, we are examining and considering the timing of a number of strategic initiatives. We are also reconsidering whether future business opportunities still align with our return goals. There is much to accomplish, but it does present an opportunity to re-examine our businesses in more detail.

因此，我們相信，隨著時間的推移，我們的利潤結構能夠並且將會恢復到先前所述的結構水準。話雖如此，我們正在研究並考慮一些策略舉措的時機。我們也在重新考慮未來的商業機會是否仍與我們的回報目標相符。我們還有很多事情要做，但這確實提供了一個更詳細地重新審視我們業務的機會。

With that, let's go through the financial results. Please turn to page 7, where you will find our second-quarter consolidated results. For the second quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of $1.70 and basic EPS of $1.74. Consolidated net revenues were $150.8 billion, representing an increase of 2% sequentially and 7% year over year.

下面，讓我們來看看財務結果。請翻到第 7 頁，您將看到我們的第二季綜合業績。第二季度，我們實現完全攤薄每股收益 1.70 美元，基本每股收益 1.74 美元。合併淨營收為 1,508 億美元，季增 2%，年增 7%。

On a US dollar basis, our sales increased by 7% sequentially and 11% year over year. We had a gross profit of $25.7 billion with a gross margin of 17%. Our gross margin improved by 0.2 percentage points sequentially and improved by 0.6 percentage points year over year.

以美元計算，我們的銷售額環比成長 7%，年增 11%。我們的毛利為 257 億美元，毛利率為 17%。我們的毛利率比上一季提高了0.2個百分點，比去年同期提高了0.6個百分點。

The sequential improvement in margin is primarily due to higher loading efficiency in our ATM business, offset in large part by foreign exchange. The annual improvement is primarily due to higher utilization and beneficial product mix offset by foreign exchange. We estimate that foreign exchange fluctuation had a negative 1.5 and 1.0 percentage point impact on gross margins on a sequential and annual basis, respectively. Our operating expenses increased by $0.3 billion sequentially and $1.5 billion annually to $15.5 billion.

利潤率的環比提高主要得益於 ATM 業務裝載效率的提高，但很大程度上被外匯影響所抵消。年度改善主要歸因於更高的利用率和有利的產品組合，但被外匯抵消。我們估計，外匯波動對毛利率的環比和年比分別產生了1.5和1.0個百分點的負面效應。我們的營運費用較上季增加 3 億美元，年增 15 億美元，達到 155 億美元。

The sequential increase in operating expenses is primarily due to higher consumption of factory supplies as our R&D activities ramp. The year-over-year increase in operating expenses is primarily attributable to increases in R&D staffing, factory supply consumption and other labor-related costs. Our operating expense percentage stayed flat sequentially at 10.3% and increased annually by 0.3 percentage points. Operating profit was $10.2 billion, up $0.5 billion sequentially and $1.2 billion year-over-year.

營業費用的持續增加主要是因為隨著我們的研發活動增加，工廠耗材的消耗增加。營業費用年增主要歸因於研發人員、工廠供應消耗和其他與勞動力相關的成本的增加。我們的營業費用百分比與上一季持平，為 10.3%，較去年同期成長 0.3 個百分點。營業利潤為 102 億美元，比上一季增加 5 億美元，比去年同期增加 12 億美元。

Operating margin was 6.8%, up 0.3 percentage points sequentially and improved 0.4 percentage points year over year. During the quarter, we had a net nonoperating loss of $0.9 billion. Our nonoperating loss for the quarter primarily consists of net interest expense and net foreign exchange hedging activities, offset in part by profits from associates and other nonoperating income. Net interest expense for the quarter was $1.2 billion.

營業利益率為 6.8%，較上一季上升 0.3 個百分點，較去年同期上升 0.4 個百分點。本季度，我們的淨營業外虧損為 9 億美元。本季我們的非營業損失主要包括淨利息支出和淨外匯對沖活動，部分被聯營公司利潤和其他非營業收入所抵銷。本季淨利息支出為 12 億美元。

Tax expense for the quarter was $1.6 billion. Our effective tax rate for the quarter was 17%. Net income for the quarter was $7.5 billion, representing a decrease of $0.1 billion sequentially and a decrease of $0.3 billion year over year. On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items without the inclusion of PPA-related expenses.

本季稅費為 16 億美元。本季我們的有效稅率為 17%。本季淨收入為 75 億美元，比上一季減少 1 億美元，比去年同期減少 3 億美元。在頁面底部，我們提供了不包括 PPA 相關費用的關鍵損益項目。

Consolidated gross profit, excluding PPA expenses, would be $26.2 billion with a 17.4% gross margin. Operating profit would be $11 billion with an operating margin of 7.3%. Net profit would be $8.3 billion with a net margin of 5.5%. Basic EPS, excluding PPA expenses, would be $1.91.

不包括 PPA 費用的綜合毛利將達到 262 億美元，毛利率為 17.4%。營業利益將達 110 億美元，營業利益率為 7.3%。淨利潤將達到 83 億美元，淨利潤率為 5.5%。不包括 PPA 費用的基本每股收益為 1.91 美元。

On page 8 is a graphical presentation of our consolidated quarterly financial performance. On page 9 is our ATM P&L. The ATM revenue reported here contains revenues eliminated at the holding company level related to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses. For the second quarter 2025, revenues for our ATM business were $92.6 billion, up $5.9 billion from the previous quarter and up $14.8 billion from the same period last year.

第 8 頁以圖表形式展示了我們的合併季度財務表現。第 9 頁是我們的 ATM 損益表。此處報告的 ATM 收入包含在控股公司層級消除的與我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易相關的收入。2025 年第二季度，我們的 ATM 業務收入為 926 億美元，比上一季增加 59 億美元，比去年同期增加 148 億美元。

This represents a 7% increase sequentially and a 19% increase annually. On a US dollar basis, our ATM revenues were up 13% sequentially and 23% annually. Gross profit for our ATM business was $20.2 billion, up $0.6 billion sequentially and up $3 billion year over year.

這意味著環比增長 7%，年增長率為 19%。以美元計算，我們的 ATM 營收季增 13%，年增 23%。我們的 ATM 業務毛利為 202 億美元，比上一季增加 6 億美元，比去年同期增加 30 億美元。

Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 21.9%, down 0.7 percentage points sequentially and down 0.2 percentage points year-over-year. The sequential and annual margin declines were primarily due to NT dollar to US dollar appreciation and, to a lesser extent, higher utility rates offset in part by efficiency from higher loading. On a constant currency assumption, we estimate our gross margin would be roughly 2.2 percentage points higher during the quarter, within our original margin expectations for the second quarter.

ATM業務毛利率為21.9%，季減0.7個百分點，較去年同期下降0.2個百分點。利潤率的環比和年度下降主要是由於新台幣兌美元升值，以及在較小程度上，利用率的提高被負載提高帶來的效率部分抵消。根據不變匯率假設，我們估計本季的毛利率將提高約 2.2 個百分點，符合我們對第二季的原始利潤率預期。

During the second quarter, operating expenses were $11.4 billion, up $0.1 billion sequentially and $1.5 billion year over year. The sequential increase in operating expenses was related to slightly higher labor costs from workdays. The annual increase is primarily the result of R&D ramp-up and labor-related expenses. Our operating expense percentage for the quarter was 12.3%, decreasing 0.7 percentage points sequentially and down 0.5 percentage points annually.

第二季度，營運費用為 114 億美元，比上一季增加 1 億美元，比去年同期增加 15 億美元。營業費用的環比增長與工作日勞動成本略有上升有關。年度成長主要源自於研發投入和勞動相關費用的增加。本季我們的營業費用佔比為 12.3%，比上一季下降 0.7 個百分點，比上年下降 0.5 個百分點。

The sequential decrease was primarily related to higher revenues on relatively stable operating expenses. We continue to target to lower our operating expense percentage. However, given the foreign exchange environment, the level of anticipated decline in percentage may be somewhat impacted. During the second quarter, operating profit was $8.8 billion, representing a sequential increase of $0.5 billion and an annual increase of $1.6 billion.

環比下降主要由於營業費用相對穩定但收入增加。我們持續致力於降低營運費用百分比。但考慮到外匯環境，預期的百分比下降幅度可能會受到一定影響。第二季度，營業利潤為 88 億美元，比上一季增加 5 億美元，比前一年增加 16 億美元。

Operating margin was 9.5%, down 0.1 percentage points sequentially, while up 0.2 percentage points year-over-year. Without the impact of PPA-related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 22.4% and operating profit margin would be 10.3%.

營業利益率為 9.5%，較上一季下降 0.1 個百分點，較去年同期上升 0.2 個百分點。不計PPA相關折舊及攤銷的影響，ATM毛利率為22.4%，營業利益率為10.3%。

On page 10, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L. On page 11 is our ATM revenue by 3C market segments. You can see here that the Computing segment continues to become a relatively larger component of our business. This was largely driven by a higher percentage of LEAP-based revenues. From a wider perspective, it is representative of AI's growing share of the electronics market.

在第 10 頁，您將看到我們的 ATM 損益表的圖形表示。第 11 頁是我們的 ATM 收入按 3C 市場細分。您可以在這裡看到，計算部門繼續成為我們業務中相對較大的組成部分。這主要是由於基於 LEAP 的收入比例較高所致。從更廣泛的角度來看，它代表了人工智慧在電子市場的份額不斷增長。

On page 12, you will find our ATM revenue by service type. Here, you can see the two service types containing LEAP services, bump and flip chip and testing. Both are becoming a larger component of our overall business. We continue to expect growth in these areas. It should be noted that we are starting to see a more visible pickup in our wirebond business.

在第 12 頁，您將看到我們按服務類型劃分的 ATM 收入。在這裡，您可以看到包含 LEAP 服務、凸塊和倒裝晶片以及測試的兩種服務類型。兩者都正在成為我們整體業務的重要組成部分。我們繼續期待這些領域能成長。值得注意的是，我們開始看到我們的引線鍵合業務出現更明顯的回升。

There are signs that this is related to a more general market recovery. On an absolute dollar basis, our wirebond business grew on a US dollar basis but was outpaced by LEAP and testing. On page 13, you can see the second quarter results of our EMS business.

有跡象表明，這與更普遍的市場復甦有關。從絕對美元計算，我們的引線鍵合業務以美元計算有所成長，但其成長速度被 LEAP 和測試所超越。在第 13 頁，您可以看到我們的 EMS 業務第二季的業績。

The annual seasonality of our EMS business has been inconsistent over the last couple of years due to differing device ramp schedules. As such, we believe the annual comparability of our second quarter results may be impacted. During the quarter, EMS revenues were $58.8 billion, declining 6% sequentially and 7% year-over-year. The sequential decline was primarily the result of underlying device seasonality.

由於設備提升計劃不同，過去幾年我們 EMS 業務的年度季節性一直不一致。因此，我們認為第二季業績的年度可比性可能會受到影響。本季度，EMS 營收為 588 億美元，季減 6%，年減 7%。連續下降主要是由於設備季節性的影響。

Sequentially, our EMS business' gross margin improved 0.5 percentage points to 9.4%. This change was principally the result of product mix. Operating expenses within our AMS business increased slightly by $0.1 billion sequentially and declined $0.1 billion annually. Our second-quarter operating expense percentage of 6.9% was up 0.6 percentage points.

我們的EMS業務毛利率季增0.5個百分點至9.4%。這種變化主要是產品組合造成的。我們的 AMS 業務的營運費用環比小幅增加了 0.1 億美元，比去年同期下降了 0.1 億美元。我們第二季的營業費用百分比為 6.9%，上升了 0.6 個百分點。

Annually, our EMS operating expense percentage was up 0.4 percentage points on lower revenues. Operating margin for the second quarter was 2.6% flat sequentially and down 0.5 percentage points year-over-year. The annual decline was primarily due to lower revenues. Our EMS second quarter operating profit was $1.5 billion, down $0.1 billion sequentially and $0.4 billion annually.

每年，由於收入下降，我們的 EMS 營運費用百分比上升了 0.4 個百分點。第二季營業利益率為2.6%，與上一季持平，較去年同期下降0.5個百分點。年度下滑主要是因為收入下降。我們的 EMS 第二季營業利潤為 15 億美元，比上一季下降 1 億美元，比去年同期下降 4 億美元。

On the bottom of the page, you will find a graphical representation of our EMS revenue by application. As you can see, the second quarter mix of application revenue was relatively steady sequentially. On page 14, you will find key line items from our balance sheet. At the end of the year, we had cash, cash equivalents and current financial assets of $76.9 billion.

在頁面底部，您將看到按應用程式劃分的 EMS 收入的圖形表示。如您所見，第二季度應用程式收入組合環比相對穩定。在第 14 頁，您將找到我們資產負債表中的關鍵項目。截至年底，我們的現金、現金等價物和流動金融資產為 769 億美元。

Our total interest-bearing debt increased by $8.5 billion to $240.1 billion. We continue to anticipate increasing our debt outstanding throughout the year. Total unused credit lines amounted to $355.3 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was $27.4 billion.

我們的計息債務總額增加了 85 億美元，達到 2,401 億美元。我們預計全年未償債務將繼續增加。未使用的信貸額度總額達3553億美元。本季我們的 EBITDA 為 274 億美元。

Our net debt to equity this quarter was 52%. As a reminder, we anticipate that our net debt to equity will be peaking this year during the third quarter. On page 15, you will find our equipment capital expenditures relative to our EBITDA. Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the second quarter in US dollars totaled $992 million, of which $690 million were used in packaging operations, $251 million in testing operations, $49 million in EMS operations and $2 million in interconnect material operations and others.

本季我們的淨債務與股權比率為 52%。提醒一下，我們預計我們的淨負債與股本比率將在今年第三季達到高峰。在第 15 頁，您將看到我們的設備資本支出相對於我們的 EBITDA 的比例。第二季機械設備資本支出以美元計算總計9.92億美元，其中6.9億美元用於封裝業務，2.51億美元用於測試業務，4,900萬美元用於EMS業務，200萬美元用於互連材料業務及其他。

In addition to spending on machinery and equipment, during the quarter, we also spent $531 million on facilities, which includes land and buildings. We continue to see the complexities of semiconductor design requiring step-ups in our LEAP offerings. Progressing device memory, thermal and power requirements in addition to traditional bandwidth expansion continue to necessitate advancements in our capabilities, equipment and facilities.

除了機械設備支出外，本季我們還花費 5.31 億美元用於設施建設，其中包括土地和建築物。我們不斷看到半導體設計的複雜性要求我們在 LEAP 產品方面做出改進。除了傳統的頻寬擴展之外，不斷進步的設備記憶體、熱量和功率需求也不斷要求我們的能力、設備和設施不斷進步。

Our packaging products are now more than ever on the critical path of chip design. As we get closer to 2026, we are seeing a number of initiatives starting to activate. Aligning with customer requests, we are trying to be more aggressive with time lines and as a result, we are potentially seeing some of the capital expenditures slated for 2026 being accelerated into the fourth quarter of 2025. At this point, the delivery and installation schedules are still fairly dynamic, but we are potentially looking at a bump up in 2025 capital equipment expenditures by a few hundred million dollars.

我們的封裝產品現在比以往任何時候都更處於晶片設計的關鍵路徑上。隨著 2026 年的臨近，我們看到許多措施開始啟動。根據客戶的要求，我們試圖更積極地安排時間表，因此，我們可能會看到原定於 2026 年進行的部分資本支出加速到 2025 年第四季。目前，交付和安裝時間表仍然相當動態，但我們可能會看到 2025 年資本設備支出增加數億美元。

With that, I'll hand the presentation over to Joseph to give the outlook for the coming quarter.

說完這些，我將把演講交給約瑟夫，讓他對下一季做出展望。

Thank you, Ken. Let me give you the guidance for the third quarter. Based on our current business outlook and the exchange rate assumption of USD1 to TWD29.2, the management projects overall performance for the third quarter of 2025 to be as follows. This time, the guidance will be given in both US dollar terms as well as in NT. So it's a little bit more complicated, so please bear with me. At the holdco consolidated level in US dollar terms, consolidated third quarter revenue should grow by 12% to 14% quarter over quarter.

謝謝你，肯。讓我給你第三季的指導。根據我們目前的業務展望和 1 美元兌 29.2 新台幣的匯率假設，管理層預測 2025 年第三季的整體業績如下。此次，指導價將以美元和新台幣兩種貨幣給出。所以這有點複雜，所以請耐心等待。以控股公司美元合併水準計算，第三季合併收入應較上季成長 12% 至 14%。

Whereas in NT dollar terms, our consolidated third quarter revenue should grow by 6% to 8% quarter over quarter. Our consolidated third quarter 2025 gross margin should decrease by 1 to 1.2 percentage points quarter over quarter. Our consolidated third quarter 2025 operating margin should decrease by 0.1 to 0.3 percentage points quarter over quarter. Now coming down to ATM.

以新台幣計算，我們第三季的綜合收入將比上一季成長 6% 至 8%。我們 2025 年第三季的綜合毛利率將比上一季下降 1 至 1.2 個百分點。我們 2025 年第三季的綜合營業利潤率將比上一季下降 0.1 至 0.3 個百分點。現在來到 ATM。

In US dollar terms, our ATM third quarter 2025 revenue should grow by 9% to 11% quarter over quarter. While in NT dollar terms, our ATM third quarter revenue should grow by 3% to 5% quarter over quarter. Our ATM third-quarter gross margin should decrease by 0.9 to 1.1 percentage points quarter over quarter.

以美元計算，我們的 2025 年第三季 ATM 營收應較上季成長 9% 至 11%。以新台幣計算，我們的 ATM 第三季營收應比上一季成長 3% 至 5%。我們的 ATM 第三季毛利率將比上一季下降 0.9 至 1.1 個百分點。

EMS. In US dollar terms, our EMS third-quarter 2025 revenue should grow by 18% to 20% quarter over quarter. In NT dollar terms, our EMS third-quarter revenue should grow by 12% to 14% quarter over quarter. EMS third-quarter 2025 operating margin should increase by 0.3 to 0.5 percentage point quarter over quarter. That is the overall guidance for third quarter.

緊急醫療服務。以美元計算，我們的 2025 年第三季 EMS 營收應較上季成長 18% 至 20%。以新台幣計算，我們的EMS第三季營收應比上一季成長12%至14%。EMS 2025 年第三季的營業利潤率應比上一季增加 0.3 至 0.5 個百分點。這是第三季的整體指引。

With that, I would like to also make very short comments on our margin. Well, on top of the overall higher cost environment that we're working in today, the NT dollar appreciation since early May put further pressure on our margin and will have a 5 percentage point negative impact on ATM third quarter '25 gross margin.

我也想就我們的利潤率發表一些簡短的評論。嗯，除了我們今天所處的整體成本較高環境之外，自 5 月初以來新台幣的升值給我們的利潤率帶來了進一步的壓力，並將對 ATM 25 年第三季度的毛利率產生 5 個百分點的負面影響。

If excluding such currency impact, our ATM gross margin should be around 26%. We're near the midpoint of our structural gross margin as originally targeted during our last earnings call. Now looking forward, as we continue to improve our costs through efficiency improvement, leveraging our scale and capabilities to align our pricing and investment strategies with our value proposition and to aggressively expand our leading-edge packaging and testing business and start easing up on our early-stage ramp-up costs. We are very confident that we will get back to our structural margin range in 2026.

如果排除這種貨幣影響，我們的 ATM 毛利率應該在 26% 左右。我們目前已接近上次收益電話會議中最初設定的結構性毛利率的中點。展望未來，我們將繼續透過提高效率來改善成本，利用我們的規模和能力，使我們的定價和投資策略與我們的價值主張保持一致，並積極擴展我們領先的封裝和測試業務，並開始降低我們早期的提升成本。我們非常有信心在 2026 年恢復到我們的結構性利潤率範圍。

With that, thank you very much.

非常感謝。

Thank you, Joseph. During the Q&A session that follows, we would appreciate if questions can be kept concise and asked one at a time. I will be receiving each question and repeating the asked question to Joseph and Tien. Again, we will be limiting the number of questions asked to two per turn, but ask one at a time.

謝謝你，約瑟夫。在接下來的問答環節中，如果問題能夠簡潔並且一次只提出一個問題，我們將不勝感激。我將接收每個問題並向 Joseph 和 Tien 重複提出的問題。再次，我們將限制每次提問的問題數量為兩個，但每次只問一個。

We will start off by taking questions from the attendees on the floor. After some of those, we will look to the virtual queue to see if we have some questions online.

我們將先回答與會人員的提問。完成這些之後，我們將查看虛擬隊列，看看是否有一些線上問題。

So my first question is about Dr. Tien your comments about your fab is going to be very busy in second half. And actually, your ATM guidance is pretty good, right? How do we kind of reconcile with the sort of comments about PC, smartphone, automotive seems to be very slow. Is that because of ASE's share gain or any other factors that we don't consider.

所以我的第一個問題是關於田博士的，您說您的工廠下半年會非常忙碌。實際上，您的 ATM 指導非常好，對嗎？我們如何應對有關個人電腦、智慧型手機、汽車等的評論似乎進展得很慢。這是因為 ASE 的份額成長還是其他我們沒有考慮到的因素？

Charlie, you're asking about the general dynamics of variable markets or --

查理，你問的是變化市場的整體動態，或者--

Yes. So end market seems to be pretty slow. I mean, excluding the AI, right? But your guidance and also the comments about your fab utilization seems to be very busy. I just wanted to get a sense how do we reconcile your performance and also the end market weakness?

是的。因此終端市場似乎相當緩慢。我的意思是，排除人工智慧，對嗎？但是您的指導以及有關您的晶圓廠利用率的評論似乎非常繁忙。我只是想了解我們如何協調您的業績和終端市場的疲軟？

Well, we're in a much better position to look at our forecast with our customers. We're providing the guidance based on the customers' input. Those orders are firm and it covers the AI. It also covers other area, for example, the wireless, also the industrial and automotive.

嗯，我們現在可以更好地與客戶一起查看我們的預測。我們根據客戶的意見提供指導。這些訂單是確定的，並且涵蓋了人工智慧。它還涵蓋其他領域，例如無線、工業和汽車。

So I'm not going to go to the second half forecast on the segments, and I don't think we're in the position to do that. But right now, based on the forecast committed order, we do see a very strong -- I wouldn't use the word very strong. We do see the word strong -- or as strong as Q2 outlook.

因此，我不會對下半年的細分市場做出預測，而且我認為我們還沒有能力做到這一點。但目前，根據預測的承諾訂單，我們確實看到了非常強勁的——我不會用「非常強勁」這個詞。我們確實看到了強勁的勢頭——或者與第二季度的前景一樣強勁。

Charlie, your second question?

查理，你的第二個問題？

Actually, if I can add, I think we are seeing a very strong demand for HPC and AI, of course. But on the general market, we're also seeing a healthy recovery in the second quarter. Actually, in all sectors, we're seeing actually double-digit kind of growth quarter-on-quarter on each different segment. So we are seeing a recovery in the general market as well along with the hyper growth in terms of the leading edge.

實際上，如果我可以補充的話，我認為我們看到了對 HPC 和 AI 的非常強烈的需求。但就整體市場而言，我們也看到第二季出現了健康的復甦。實際上，在所有領域，我們都看到每個不同部分的季度環比增長都達到了兩位數。因此，我們看到整體市場正在復甦，同時前沿技術也在高速成長。

And my second question is more focused on your advanced packaging and testing business because foundry, TSMC revised the full year, and they kind of attribute that upward revision to the strength in AI and HPC. So why company doesn't revise up your kind of additional $1 billion revenue guidance?

我的第二個問題更集中在你們的先進封裝和測試業務上，因為代工廠、台積電修改了全年業績，他們將這種上調歸因於人工智慧和高效能運算的強勁表現。那麼，為什麼公司不上調您所說的額外 10 億美元收入預期呢？

Charlie, you're asking for -- actually, I don't understand what you're asking for. Can you rephrase this question?

查理，你的要求是──實際上，我不明白你的要求是什麼。你能重新表達一下這個問題嗎？

Yes. So TSMC revised their full year, right, attribute to AI strength. But you maintained your kind of revenue increase from the advanced packaging remains to be at USD1 billion. So is that because of any conservatism or why TSMC revised up and you don't?

是的。因此，台積電修改了全年業績，將其歸因於人工智慧的實力。但您堅持認為先進封裝的收入成長仍將達到 10 億美元。那麼，這是因為保守主義嗎？或者為什麼台積電上調了預期而你們沒有？

Charlie is asking about whether we can comment on a leading-edge advanced packaging outlook for the year?

查理詢問我們是否可以對今年的尖端先進封裝前景發表評論？

So why don't you revise up the CapEx in?

那你為什麼不修改資本支出呢？

There's a little thing called execution, operation, human talent, land, space, facility and machine delivery. We're doing the best we can. I think I already made a comment that the Q4 well into 2026, many of the customer pipeline require similar foundational technology capacity. So it's not a matter of we are reluctant to put in more CapEx.

有一點叫做執行、營運、人才、土地、太空、設施和機器交付。我們正在盡力而為。我想我已經評論過，到 2026 年第四季度，許多客戶管道都需要類似的基礎技術能力。因此，這並不是我們不願意投入更多資本支出的問題。

But we also be mindful like any machines, you don't want to overstress it on top of the -- we do have to put in some buffer for typhoon for all of this, right? So hopefully, we can do a better job, but we're very, very busy.

但是，就像任何機器一樣，我們也要小心，不要給它施加過大的壓力——我們確實需要為颱風設置一些緩衝，對嗎？所以希望我們能夠做得更好，但我們非常非常忙。

Next question, Bruce? Name and company, please.

下一個問題，布魯斯？請提供姓名和公司名稱。

Bruce Lu, Goldman Sachs. I think I want to -- the first question, I want to clarify something that Ken, when you did the prepared remarks, you were talking about certain like prioritized initiative talk with the customer. Last time when I remember when ASE was talking about this, a little about the SiP project, by them, try to prioritize those projects. Given the current currency environment, do we expect a new pricing strategy? Or do we expect to get a different -- set a different bar for the future project? For the future business discussion, does that only goes to like new SiP business or the existing business with the foundry partner or the assisting new business when we needed better pricing, otherwise? You might not want to do the business.

高盛的 Bruce Lu。我想我想——第一個問題，我想澄清一下，肯，當你準備發言時，你談論的是某些優先主動與客戶交談的事情。我記得上次 ASE 談過這個問題，他們談到了 SiP 項目，並嘗試對這些項目進行優先排序。鑑於當前的貨幣環境，我們是否期待新的定價策略？或者我們期望得到不同的－為未來的專案設定不同的標準？對於未來的業務討論，是否只涉及新的 SiP 業務或與代工合作夥伴的現有業務或當我們需要更好的定價時協助新業務，否則呢？您可能不想做這筆生意。

So can we expect the margin upside moving forward?

那麼，我們可以預期利潤率未來會持續上升嗎？

So Bruce, you're asking for us to elaborate on our strategic initiatives.

布魯斯，你要求我們詳細說明我們的策略舉措。

There are many aspects on the strategic initiative. Some of the items, I cannot go over in detail because once I said it, you understand exactly what I'm talking about. I think the SiP project as well as many that becomes a resource recalibration, we're looking at the floor space, we're looking at the cash flow, capacity, investment and most importantly, we're looking for the resource deployment. Now in the resource recalibration, obviously will come in the optimization.

這項戰略舉措涉及許多方面。有些事情我無法詳細闡述，因為一旦我說出來，你就會明白我在說什麼。我認為 SiP 項目以及許多成為資源重新校準的項目，我們正在關注佔地面積，我們正在關注現金流、產能、投資，最重要的是，我們正在尋求資源部署。現在在資源重新校準中，顯然會出現最佳化。

And the optimization by default will improve the end results, which will be a margin improvement. So that's one aspect. The second thing, the pricing strategy that has always been on the table. It really depends on the customers, also the future product as well as the timing, for example, for the RFQ, new product, old product, investment requirement, the each one will be different.

預設的優化將改善最終結果，這將帶來利潤的提高。這是一個方面。第二件事，一直在討論的定價策略。這實際上取決於客戶，也取決於未來的產品以及時間，例如，對於 RFQ、新產品、舊產品、投資要求，每一個都會有所不同。

The third large item will be the overseas expansion. We were thinking about expanding in many strategic areas. But given the dynamics of the tariff as well as the exchange rate we have to rethink priority and also the dollar amount. So our approach is going to be instead of going to multiple places.

第三大項目是海外擴張。我們正在考慮在許多策略領域進行擴張。但考慮到關稅和匯率的動態，我們必須重新考慮優先事項和美元金額。因此，我們的方法不是去多個地方。

We will focus on one or two overseas areas and make a much, much bigger investment just to make sure whatever we do counts, right? So those are the recalibration that we're going through right now. Why all we're very, very busy investing in Taiwan and trying to build up with speed, scale as well synergy with the Taiwan ecosystems. But the important thing is whatever we put in, we understand the fluctuation of the market, but we tend to look at the basic characteristics. What are the foundational requirements we would like to put in capacity that we believe will run for 7 to 10 years, and that's what we're building on now.

我們會專注於一兩個海外地區，並進行更大規模的投資，以確保我們所做的一切都有價值，對嗎？這就是我們現在正在經歷的重新調整。為什麼我們如此忙於在台灣投資，並試圖快速、大規模地發展，並與台灣的生態系統形成協同效應。但重要的是，無論我們投入什麼，我們都了解市場的波動，但我們傾向於關注基本特徵。我們希望對能夠運行 7 到 10 年的產能提出哪些基本要求，而這正是我們現在正在建造的。

The second question is for your AI-related business, which is highly skewed to testing business for this year. Do we expect packaging will account for a larger portion of the business in 2026 and onwards? And if that would be the case, can the margin maintained at a similar level with both packaging and testing for the AI business?

第二個問題是關於你們的人工智慧相關業務，今年該業務高度偏向測試業務。我們是否預計包裝將在 2026 年及以後佔據更大的業務份額？如果是這樣的話，AI業務的封裝和測試利潤率能否維持在相似的水平？

Bruce, you're asking about our LEAP services headed into 2026.

布魯斯，您詢問的是有關我們 2026 年的 LEAP 服務。

The concept is to grow our turnkey business that covers the AI-related leading-edge. If you only look at the growth rate, it tends to be very misleading because the testing business has a larger base. We talk about the 31% first half and will probably be a better number in the second half. That will be the overall testing growth rate.

我們的理念是發展涵蓋人工智慧相關前沿領域的交鑰匙業務。如果只看成長率，往往會產生誤導，因為測試業務的基數更大。我們談論的是上半年的 31%，下半年的數字可能會更好。這將是總體測試成長率。

If you just look at the leading-edge packaging, then the growth rate is much higher. But the concept is to grow this in tandem. However, you cannot look at it because the base is different. But just to answer you briefly, we do intend to make investment on packaging as well as testing because the requirement tend to go in tandem.

如果只看前沿封裝，那麼成長率要高得多。但其理念是同步發展。然而，由於基礎不同，所以你無法看它。但只是簡單地回答您，我們確實打算在包裝和測試方面進行投資，因為要求往往是同時進行的。

For example, once you go to chiplet, silicon photonics or any kind of HPC or AI related, then the thermal fluctuation that you have to deal with a whole lot more variables for the testing arena. And the lead time tend to be multiple cycles, much longer. You also have to deal with the interim testing to guarantee yield. With all of this practical concern, I think ASE has a very good position to run the leading edge, assembly packaging as well as testing just the nature of logistics and also the technology and the cash flow.

例如，一旦您進入晶片、矽光子學或任何類型的 HPC 或 AI 相關領域，那麼您就必須處理測試領域中更多的熱波動變數。而且交貨時間往往是多個週期，甚至更長。您還必須處理中期測試以確保產量。考慮到所有這些實際問題，我認為 ASE 具有非常有利的地位來運行前沿、組裝封裝以及測試物流的性質以及技術和現金流。

Can I have a very quick follow-up because we were guiding for $1 billion additional business for this year. Given the huge CapEx we invest this year, the incremental revenue will be a lot bigger than $1 billion for next year. Is that right?

我能否快速跟進一下，因為我們預計今年的業務將增加 10 億美元。考慮到我們今年投入的巨額資本支出，明年的增量收入將遠遠超過 10 億美元。是嗎？

Yes, I don't think we have any comments out on '26 yet.

是的，我認為我們還沒有對 26 做出任何評論。

But Joseph used the comment about like capital to CapEx per revenue, right? If you use the similar terminology or similar methodology, you can provide some color, again, nothing that had these things.

但是約瑟夫使用了有關資本與每筆收入的資本支出類似的評論，對嗎？如果您使用類似的術語或類似的方法，您可以提供一些色彩，同樣，沒有這些東西。

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. I'm nodding my head just to show my appreciation to your question. Anyways I think we do have -- we have been pretty aggressive in terms of investing into test. And the growth rate that test is showing actually shows or demonstrates the progress that we're making.

我不確定我是否明白你在問什麼。我點頭只是為了表達我對你的問題的感謝。無論如何，我認為我們確實——我們在投資測試方面一直非常積極。測試顯示的成長率實際上表明或證明了我們正在取得的進展。

For this year, we're still expecting growth of test to be twice the pace of packaging. In terms of test overall to ATM, we will be approaching 20% of ATM revenue being test by fourth quarter this year. And going forward, I think aside from the -- right now, the leading-edge part of the test is about -- over 20% of the overall leading-edge revenue. And I think that ratio will continue to grow because right now, we're expanding our test mostly for leading edge at the wafer sort level.

對於今年，我們仍然預計測試的成長速度將是包裝的兩倍。就 ATM 整體測試而言，到今年第四季度，我們將對接近 20% 的 ATM 收入進行測試。展望未來，我認為除了目前的情況之外，測試的前沿部分約佔整體前沿收入的 20% 以上。我認為這個比例將繼續增長，因為現在我們正在擴大我們的測試，主要是針對晶圓分類等級的前沿技術。

And in the later part of the year, we will be starting getting into final test burning included. So I think there's still a lot of potential for us to grab going forward, particularly in the test which overall will bring up our margin as well.

今年下半年，我們將開始進行最後的測試燃燒。因此我認為我們在未來仍有很大潛力可挖，特別是在測試中，這總體上也會提高我們的利潤。

Does that answer your question, Bruce?

這回答了你的問題嗎，布魯斯？

I got to say yes, right?

我得說是的，對吧？

If we could switch it up and maybe take a question from virtual?

如果我們可以換個方式，或許可以從虛擬的角度來回答問題？

First question is on gross margins. So you mentioned that gross margin can get back to the structural gross margin levels, mid- to high 20s next year. Is that assuming that currency stays at this level? So if so, what are the variables that are contributing to that? Do you assume that there is a big increase in non-leading-edge utilization? Or is it just a function of better mix of LEAP, better testing and potentially better pricing?

第一個問題是關於毛利率的。所以您提到毛利率明年可以回到結構性毛利率水平，即 20% 左右。這是假設貨幣維持在這個水準嗎？那如果是這樣，造成這種情況的變數是什麼？您是否認為非尖端技術的利用率會大幅增加？或者它只是 LEAP、更好的測試和潛在的更好的定價的更好組合的功能？

Gokul, you're asking what levers are available to get back to our structural margin levels. Is that correct?

Gokul，您問的是，有哪些手段可以讓我們恢復到結構性利潤水準。對嗎？

Yes, especially for next year. I think Joseph mentioned, I think for next year, we hope to get back there, right?

是的，特別是明年。我想約瑟夫提到過，我想明年我們希望回到那裡，對嗎？

Yes. I was talking about our margin for next year, and we are very confident about coming back to our structural margin range in 2026, I think, through several different directions. One is, of course, we will continue our effort in improving our efficiency. That includes further automation of our overall operation to bring down our costs.

是的。我剛才談到了我們明年的利潤率，我們非常有信心透過幾個不同的方向在 2026 年回到我們的結構性利潤率範圍。一是，當然，我們將繼續努力提高效率。這包括進一步實現我們整體營運的自動化以降低成本。

And I think a lot of the early stage ramp-up costs will start to see that easing up. And we're actually saying last time that our operating expense ratio will start to level off because initially, we're putting a lot of R&D dollars into our investment. So as we continue to grow or expand our leading edge, I think we're going out of the ramp-up stage, I think that part of the expense can be more controlled. And of course, all the leading-edge businesses, including tests are margin accretive.

我認為，許多早期階段的提升成本將會開始減少。實際上，我們上次就說過，我們的營運費用率將開始趨於平穩，因為最初我們在投資上投入了大量研發資金。因此，隨著我們繼續發展或擴大我們的領先優勢，我認為我們即將走出上升階段，我認為部分費用可以得到更好的控制。當然，包括測試在內的所有前沿業務都會增加利潤。

So all these put together, I think it gives us a high confidence level that going into next year, we will be able to get back to our structural margin range. Of course, that's based on the assumption that the currency doesn't further appreciate from the TWD29.2 or TWD29 level at this point.

所以，綜合考慮所有這些因素，我認為，這給了我們很大的信心，到明年，我們將能夠回到我們的結構性利潤率範圍。當然，這是基於這樣的假設：貨幣目前不會從 29.2 新台幣或 29 新台幣的水平進一步升值。

And just a follow-up, how much of a lever can be pricing given for LEAP, you are pretty much the only vendor out there spending so much money. Your competitor doesn't really seem to be spending much CapEx. Your foundry partner seems to be a lot more aggressive about selling their value as well. So I just wanted to understand how you were thinking about this, given your market position today seems to be a lot better than maybe five years back.

再問一下，對於 LEAP 來說，定價能起到多大的作用，你們幾乎是唯一一家花這麼多錢的供應商。您的競爭對手似乎並沒有花費太多的資本支出。您的代工合作夥伴似乎也更積極地推銷他們的價值。所以我只是想要了解你是如何考慮這個問題的，因為你今天的市場地位似乎比五年前好得多。

Gokul, you're asking about our -- what we perceive as our market position within LEAP. Is that correct?

Gokul，您問的是我們的——我們認為我們在 LEAP 中的市場地位是什麼。對嗎？

The pricing power is what every company wants to have. The pricing power includes your design, attachment rate, long-term loyalty, trust as well as your technology and overall solutions. I think I talk about the current scale and the speed and synergy of ASE being in Taiwan as well as being supported by many ecosystem players and their foundry partners. I think we need to clearly demonstrate our trust and also the overall solution support to our key customers.

定價權是每個公司都想擁有的。定價權包括你的設計、附著率、長期忠誠度、信任以及你的技術和整體解決方案。我認為我談論的是日月光目前的規模、速度和在台灣的協同效應，以及得到許多生態系統參與者及其代工合作夥伴的支持。我認為我們需要清楚地向我們的關鍵客戶展示我們的信任以及整體解決方案支援。

Pricing is always an option. However, we prefer to use technical strength, offer long-term growth prospect, which I think is much, much longer lasting. However, everything is being considering. And by recalibration and resource the optimization, that by itself is one pricing strategy.

定價始終是一個選擇。然而，我們更願意利用技術實力，提供長期的成長前景，我認為這會更加持久。不過，一切都還在考慮中。透過重新校準和資源優化，這本身就是一種定價策略。

Gokul claims that, that's a follow-up question. Do you want to let him on for his second question?

Gokul 聲稱，這是一個後續問題。你想讓他繼續問第二個問題嗎？

Second question is on the LEAP platform. Dr. Wu, can you talk a little bit about application of 2.5D, 3D packaging, whether it is CoWos like, PoCoS, FOCoS-Bridge, et cetera. For applications beyond AI accelerator, it definitely looks like '26, '27, you start to see a lot more of these applications coming to you for CPU or other HPC applications.

第二個問題是關於 LEAP 平台的。吳博士，您能否談談2.5D、3D封裝的應用，例如CoWos、PoCoS、FOCoS-Bridge等等。對於 AI 加速器以外的應用，看起來肯定像 26、27 年一樣，你會開始看到更多這類應用程式出現在 CPU 或其他 HPC 應用程式中。

Could you talk a little bit about what you are seeing and how important these are going to be in terms of the growth going in '26 and '27, given this year mostly, it seems for AI accelerators only?

您能否稍微談談您所看到的情況，以及這些對於 26 年和 27 年的成長有多重要，因為今年似乎只針對 AI 加速器？

Gokul, you're asking for Dr. Wu to expand upon our LEAP offerings?

Gokul，您要求吳博士擴展我們的 LEAP 產品嗎？

Yes, beyond AI accelerator, yes.

是的，超越AI加速器，是的。

Well, I talk about the first wave is the accelerator. I think the second wave, you will see more infrastructure people. You all see the ASIC people start coming in. But however, they all share the same characteristics.

那我講的第一波就是加速器。我認為在第二波浪潮中，你會看到更多的基礎設施人員。你們都看到 ASIC 人員開始進來。但儘管如此，它們都具有相同的特徵。

They would like to have very, very tight configuration and very, very large design footprint and also very efficient power delivery systems and also the transmission, high bandwidth, low latency. I do see this round of AI accelerator that were cascaded to the CPU, yes. And we'll go to the ASIC, yes. And in the future, for the AI edge applications, I believe most of the devices will share the similar multifunctional heterogeneous integration that will demand much of the characteristics I just talked about it.

他們希望擁有非常非常緊密的配置和非常非常大的設計空間，以及非常有效率的電力傳輸系統和傳輸、高頻寬、低延遲。是的，我確實看到了這一輪級聯到 CPU 的 AI 加速器。是的，我們會去 ASIC。而在未來，對於AI邊緣應用，我相信大多數設備都會具有類似的多功能異構集成，這將需要我剛才談到的許多特性。

So I believe the volume, we obviously are optimistic that the volume will be increasing over time.

因此，我相信銷量，我們顯然對銷量會隨著時間的推移而增加持樂觀態度。

Question from the floor. Sunny?

來自地面的提問。陽光燦爛？

Sunny Lin from UBS. So my first question is on advanced packaging, especially on the leading edge, just want to learn your strategy on how to scale the business into 2026 and 2027. I believe for 2025, most of your cell supply for packaging may be through the outsourcing from foundry. And so going into 2026, where are you in terms of the progress to ramp full process CoWos or FOCoS? And how should we think about the further upside from the foundry outsourcing.

瑞銀的 Sunny Lin。所以我的第一個問題是關於先進封裝，特別是在前沿領域，只是想了解您關於如何將業務擴展到 2026 年和 2027 年的策略。我相信到2025年，大部分用於封裝的電池供應可能都是透過代工廠外包實現的。那麼，進入 2026 年，您在推進全流程 CoWos 或 FOCoS 方面取得了哪些進展？我們該如何看待代工外包的進一步好處？

Well, the foundry outsourcing will continue pending on the foundry partner as well as our end customers requirement overall. So that is ongoing. The second layer is going to be the ASIC players. The ASIC players will make their choice and they can either go through different routes.

嗯，代工外包將繼續，這取決於代工合作夥伴以及我們最終客戶的整體要求。這仍在進行中。第二層是 ASIC 玩家。ASIC 玩家將做出自己的選擇，他們可以選擇不同的路線。

And also, there will be a peripheral packaging and testing requirements on the other devices that will also go into the same infrastructure. And then there will be the CPU guys. I don't think I can go into even more details, but if you really believe that the AI is a new paradigm shift, if you look at how many players are really embracing the AI and how many other people are jumping on it, you can pretty much figure out, we are still seeing the first wave. Even the CPU, the ASICs, whatever we can name today, it will be the first wave.

此外，進入相同基礎設施的其他設備也需要外圍封裝和測試。然後還有 CPU 人員。我認為我無法講得更詳細，但如果你真的相信人工智慧是一個新的範式轉變，如果你看看有多少玩家真正接受人工智慧，有多少其他人也加入其中，你就可以發現，我們仍然在看到第一波浪潮。甚至 CPU、ASIC，無論我們今天能命名什麼，它都將是第一波。

The real definition of the paradigm shift is, there will be others that we cannot see. That's the definition of paradigm shift. So I think for that, building an efficient, viable and flexible infrastructure today at a speed is extremely critical, which is why ASE management choose their hard route that we want to accelerate investment and then just take the heat. Even with the risk, we might miscue it.

範式轉移的真正定義是，將會出現一些我們無法看見的事物。這就是範式轉移的定義。因此我認為，為此，快速建立高效、可行和靈活的基礎設施至關重要，這也是為什麼 ASE 管理層選擇艱難路線，即加快投資，然後承擔壓力。即使有風險，我們也可能會失誤。

Also put a lot of stress on the supply chain. But we believe in this round, gaining customers' confidence will dramatically improve the long-term royalty as well as explaining to our customers, not just the first wave, the second wave and the third wave, you would need to have a footprint, flexibility. That's where the large panel, the 300 x 300 fully automated line will be put in by the end of this year. The 600 x 600 fully automated line will be also delivered by Q4.

也給供應鏈帶來很大壓力。但我們相信，在這一輪中，贏得客戶的信任將大大提高長期特許權使用費，並向我們的客戶解釋，不僅僅是第一波、第二波和第三波，你還需要有足跡和靈活性。今年年底，大型面板、300 x 300 全自動生產線將在這裡投入使用。600 x 600 全自動生產線也將於第四季交付。

And then silicon photonics, we have been extremely vocal. And also on the new power management, the VRM solutions, we're working with many of our key customers trying to define at IP level, the technology level, also at a capacity level to the next generation. So I think this campaign is not just CoWoS or FOCoS. It's really the overall the solution.

然後是矽光子學，我們一直非常直言不諱。此外，在新的電源管理、VRM 解決方案方面，我們正在與許多主要客戶合作，試圖在 IP 層級、技術層級以及容量層級上定義下一代產品。所以我認為這場活動不僅僅是 CoWoS 或 FOCoS。這確實是一個整體解決方案。

And I think once in a lifetime, you will encounter something like this. So I'm personally very excited.

我認為一生中你一定會遇到一次這樣的事情。所以我個人非常興奮。

For sure. So maybe let me try to ask the question maybe in a different way as a follow-up, if I may. And so for us to think about 2026 for your advanced packaging cells, is it fair to assume that your full process, advanced packaging could account for a meaningful portion of the opportunity, given your current customer engagements?

一定。因此，如果可以的話，也許讓我嘗試以不同的方式提出這個問題作為後續問題。那麼，對於你們的先進封裝單元，我們來思考一下 2026 年的情況，考慮到你們目前的客戶參與度，是否可以合理地假設，你們的全流程、先進封裝可以佔據很大一部分機會？

That will be the aspiration. But of course, you have to understand the customer loyalty means it's a trusting partners, whatever people ask us do, we will try to fulfill it. But different customers will have different choices. And the market will take us to the rightful place.

這就是我們的願望。但當然，你必須明白客戶忠誠度意味著它是一個值得信賴的合作夥伴，無論人們要求我們做什麼，我們都會盡力滿足。但不同的客戶會有不同的選擇。市場會把我們帶到正確的位置。

And we should not look at just 2026.

我們不應該只著眼於2026年。

I think just to give you a short answer, I think we are in full production in terms of full process. We do have a couple of customers that are using our capacity. We are investing for making further investment into full process. We do expect to have some meaningful business coming in next year, mostly from ASIC customers.

我想簡單地回答一下，我認為就整個流程而言，我們已經全面投入生產。我們確實有幾個客戶正在使用我們的產能。我們正在投資，對整個流程進行進一步投資。我們確實預計明年會有一些有意義的業務，主要來自 ASIC 客戶。

My very quick second question is on testing for AI. Just want to learn more on how you think about the competition. Obviously, the key competitors continue to be very aggressive in the in-house solution, whereas you may lean more toward a third-party platform with Advantest. And so how should we think about the progress of you with the clients? I'm sure at some point ASE will be a very important supplier for final test for AI.

我的第二個問題是關於人工智慧測試。只是想進一步了解您對競爭的看法。顯然，主要競爭對手在內部解決方案方面仍然非常積極，而您可能更傾向於使用 Advantest 的第三方平台。那我們該如何看待您與客戶的進展呢？我確信，在某種程度上，ASE 將成為 AI 最終測試領域中非常重要的供應商。

But how should we think about the timing for you to gain meaningful market share?

但是，我們應該如何考慮您獲得有意義的市場佔有率的時機呢？

Sunny, you're asking about our test position related to final test on AI.

Sunny，您詢問的是有關 AI 最終測試的測試職位。

I think we have been talking about this for a long time, and we are expecting to have some final test revenue coming in by maybe the fourth quarter. We'll continue to expand that part of the business going forward into next year. And I'm sure we will gain a meaningful market share in this aspect as well. I think everybody saw some short report saying whatever about our competitor was.

我想我們已經討論這個問題很長一段時間了，我們預計到第四季可能會有一些最終的測試收入。明年我們將繼續擴大這部分業務。我相信我們在這方面也會獲得可觀的市場佔有率。我想每個人都看到了一些關於我們競爭對手的簡短報導。

So I'm not going to comment on our competitor. I'm just saying that what we're doing ourselves, we do have a goal, we do have a plan. We are making progress. And we believe that whatever we invested is going to be fruitful for us.

所以我不會對我們的競爭對手發表評論。我只是說，我們自己所做的事情，我們確實有一個目標，我們確實有一個計劃。我們正在取得進展。我們相信，無論我們投入什麼，都將獲得豐厚的回報。

We have another question on the floor. Brad?

我們還有一個問題。布拉德？

I'm Brad Lin from Bank of America. So I got two questions. One is that, well, Ken, you just mentioned heterogeneous integration. So basically, I think ASE has a very unique position.

我是美國銀行的布拉德林。所以我有兩個問題。一是，Ken，你剛才提到了異質整合。所以基本上，我認為 ASE 擁有非常獨特的地位。

It has ASE, SPIL and also USI. So how will that help you maintain a competitive advantage across multiple potential application in the future in AI, including humanoid robots, HAI? And then if available, may you share any initial view on the time line for those to happen.

它有ASE、SPIL和USI。那麼，這將如何幫助您在未來人工智慧的多個潛在應用（包括人形機器人、HAI）中保持競爭優勢？然後，如果可以的話，您可以分享一下關於這些事情發生時間表的初步看法嗎？

Brad is asking about the positioning of our brands, including our EMS side of the business in terms of whether this allows us to tackle incremental AI opportunities.

布拉德詢問了我們的品牌定位，包括我們的 EMS 業務，這是否使我們能夠抓住增量 AI 機會。

You probably know that SPIL and ASE ATM business, we're running independent. And one of the advantage of that is the we're free to choose our own customers. And what so happened is, right now, the AI initial set of customers are extremely happy because each one have a different focus group with a very independent firewall in between, if we may call that advantage. The second one is on the USI.

您可能知道，SPIL 和 ASE ATM 業務是獨立經營的。這樣做的好處之一就是我們可以自由選擇自己的客戶。而現在的情況是，AI 的初始客戶群非常高興，因為每個客戶都有一個不同的焦點小組，中間有一個非常獨立的防火牆，如果我們可以稱之為優勢的話。第二個是關於 USI 的。

I think with the SiP, we clearly demonstrated a synergy and also the vertical capability for our designing as well as manufacturing also logistics perspective. For the AI, I think we're waiting for that opportunity. For example, power management is a key area because the power management, you go through 2,000 volts all the way to 0.1. And then the assembly people have their sweet spot.

我認為，透過 SiP，我們清楚地展示了協同效應以及我們在設計、製造和物流方面的垂直能力。對於人工智慧，我認為我們正在等待這個機會。例如，電源管理是一個關鍵領域，因為電源管理需要將電壓從2000伏特一直調整到0.1伏特。這樣裝配人員就能找到最佳工作點。

And then the EMS team will also have their sweet spot. If you take this kind of a hierarchical approach into the PCB, into a different kind of architecture, you can derive the similar thesis. So over time, it is the value between ASE, SPIL and USI and painting on the market demand. I think we've demonstrated this a few times, and I do believe in the AI, you will see more optical, you will see more power management that will bring the synergy back again.

然後 EMS 團隊也會有他們的最佳位置。如果您將這種分層方法引入 PCB，引入不同類型的架構，您就可以得到類似的論點。因此隨著時間的推移，ASE、SPIL 和 USI 之間的價值取決於市場需求。我想我們已經多次證明過這一點，而且我確實相信，在人工智慧方面，你會看到更多的光學，你會看到更多的電源管理，這將再次帶來協同效應。

On top of that, you have the China, you also have the other part of the world. You have the US, you have the China alliance. I think that presents another competitive advantage if we decided to go that route. Just one comment on the testing portion.

除此之外，還有中國，還有世界其他地方。你有美國，你有中國聯盟。我認為，如果我們決定走這條路，這將帶來另一個競爭優勢。關於測試部分僅一則評論。

There's one thing I want to articulate is, testing is not about wafer sort and final test. If we only fixate on the wafer sort and the final test, I think we're missing the point. The point is, in the future architecture, the testing needs to be an integral part of the processes. And the question is, how do you do this, on a discrete format or an integrated in situ format? I am giving you a 10-year outlook on the overall manufacturing strategy for very, very, highly evolved, automated, complicated assembly and testing process.

我想闡明的一點是，測試並不涉及晶圓分類和最終測試。如果我們只專注於晶圓的分類和最終的測試，我認為我們就錯過了重點。重點是，在未來的架構中，測試需要成為流程的一個組成部分。問題是，如何實現這一點，採用離散格式還是整合原位格式？我將為您展望未來 10 年高度發展、自動化、複雜的組裝和測試流程的整體製造策略。

Thank you for the explanation. So with that comment, may we assume that actually advanced testing will greatly outpace the so-called advanced packaging in that view because that will be integrated into, well, a lot of the new process?

謝謝你的解釋。因此，根據這一評論，我們是否可以假設實際上先進的測試將大大超過所謂的先進封裝，因為它將被整合到許多新流程中？

Don't take my 10 years comment back to 1 year. I'm always struggling with people, right? The technology direction is correct. The testing has a larger revenue base. If you really want to compare initial, of course, you can make that statement.

不要把我 10 年的評論倒退回 1 年。我總是和別人發生矛盾，對嗎？技術方向是正確的。測試有更大的收入基礎。如果你真的想比較初始，當然你可以做出這樣的陳述。

However, you have to look at the overall testing business percentage as well as the nature and how do you define the segments, then it is very difficult to make that comment. But the overall trend, yes, I mean, the heterogeneous integration, a very, very long cycle time on the FOCoS and the CoWoS process, and also the value of the components and also the yield impact at the module level. And these are the issues that defines and segregates the people who can play in this market versus people who cannot afford it. But this all becomes competitive advantages in any kind of business.

但是，您必須考慮整體測試業務的百分比以及性質以及如何定義各個部分，否則很難做出這樣的評論。但總體趨勢是，是的，我的意思是異質集成，FOCoS 和 CoWoS 流程的周期時間非常非常長，還有組件的價值以及模組層級的產量影響。這些問題定義並區分了哪些人可以在這個市場中參與，哪些人無法承擔這個市場。但這一切都會成為任何類型的業務的競爭優勢。

So my point is, when you evaluate the overall ecosystem at a worldwide level, at a geographical level, you have to put all of this into consideration. The AI has initiated a paradigm shift in terms of algorithm and application. Accordingly, each country, each geography, each company needs to evaluate their own paradigm shift in accordance to this macro paradigm shift. Maybe I'm over stretching, but I think this is the kind of thing I'm very excited to see in the next 10 years what will play out.

所以我的觀點是，當你從全球範圍、地理範圍評估整個生態系統時，你必須把所有這些都考慮進去。人工智慧在演算法和應用方面引發了範式轉移。因此，每個國家、每個地區、每家公司都需要根據這種宏觀範式轉變來評估自己的典範轉移。我可能有點誇大其詞，但我認為我非常期待看到未來 10 年內此類事情將如何發展。

So my second question would be a little bit on the financials. So basically, we know we are putting a lot of the CapEx in the LEAP business. And I believe, well, that would not be a problem for gross margin because it's margin accretive. But well, if available, can you kind of share some of the initial thoughts about how the growth rate of the depreciation that we are looking at in this year and maybe next year?

我的第二個問題與財務有關。所以基本上，我們知道我們在 LEAP 業務上投入了大量的資本支出。我相信，這對毛利率來說不是問題，因為它可以增加利潤。但是，如果可以的話，您能否分享一些關於我們今年和明年的折舊成長率的初步想法？

Right, you're looking for some guidance on what depreciation looks like, right?

對，您正在尋找有關折舊的一些指導，對嗎？

I think that for this year, I think given the heavy investment in our CapEx, I think the depreciation percentage is going to -- depreciation is going to grow about 14% from last year. At the holding -- I think at the ATM level, it will reach about TWD69 billion for the year. That's at holding level, right? At the ATM level, it's about TWD59 billion. I think financially, I think we will see this heavy investment for some time.

我認為，就今年而言，考慮到我們對資本支出的大量投資，我認為折舊率將比去年增長約 14%。從持有量來看——我認為在 ATM 層面，今年將達到約 690 億新台幣。那是在保持水平，對嗎？以ATM機層面來看，約590億新台幣。我認為從財務角度來看，我們將會在一段時間內看到這種大規模的投資。

And we are currently funding our investment through additional debt. As you can see in second quarter, already, we are seeing our net debt-to-equity ratio has come up quite a bit. We expect this to peak actually in the third quarter as we put in additional debt to our balance sheet. And in the third quarter, we should see a ratio roughly below 70%.

我們目前正在透過額外債務為我們的投資提供資金。正如您在第二季所看到的，我們的淨負債權益比率已經大幅上升。我們預計，隨著我們在資產負債表上增加更多債務，這一數字將在第三季達到頂峰。而在第三季度，我們應該會看到該比例大致低於 70%。

And then it will start to come down as our target level remains to be 60% to 65%, which is the level that we feel comfortable with. And we're seeing that peak at third quarter and start coming down on a quarterly basis back to our more comfortable level of around 60% to 65%.

然後它會開始下降，因為我們的目標水平仍然是 60% 到 65%，這是我們感到舒適的水平。我們看到這一比例在第三季達到峰值，然後開始逐季下降，回到我們更舒適的水平，即 60% 至 65% 左右。

I have questions on the broad-based recovery on the wirebonding. What would be the key driver behind? Just curious especially, we see some of the pooling happening in the first half already. So just wondering that you mentioned there are some power management IC demand. Is that also related to AI or do we see any market share gain or HAI device or just simply the demand gradual recovery?

我對引線鍵合的廣泛復甦有疑問。背後的關鍵驅動因素是什麼？特別好奇的是，我們看到上半年已經出現了一些合併現象。所以只是想知道您是否提到存在一些電源管理 IC 需求。這也與人工智慧有關嗎？或者我們看到市場份額的成長或 HAI 設備的成長，或者只是需求的逐漸恢復？

The wirebond capacity is tight in Taiwan mainly due to two markets. The first one, it could be related to AI. As AI are building AI systems, it does require some of the chips. They are using wirebond to support those AI systems.

台灣的引線鍵合產能緊張主要是因為兩個市場。第一個，它可能與人工智慧有關。當人工智慧正在建構人工智慧系統時，它確實需要一些晶片。他們正在使用引線鍵合來支援這些人工智慧系統。

But we believe the larger percentage of the demand actually comes from the automotive based on customers that we are serving and maybe they are using the ASE capacity because the ASE wirebond are highly automated, and we have the 100% fully automated line. Therefore, it gives you a better throughput and quality that could be. Our overseas wirebonder remains to be somehow idled. So we do see a disparity between the Taiwan wirebond as well as the overseas wirebond.

但我們相信，根據我們所服務的客戶來看，更大的需求比例實際上來自於汽車行業，也許他們正在使用 ASE 的產能，因為 ASE 引線鍵合是高度自動化的，而我們擁有 100% 全自動生產線。因此，它可以為您提供更好的吞吐量和品質。我們的海外焊線機仍然處於閒置狀態。因此，我們確實看到台灣引線鍵合與海外引線鍵合之間存在差異。

Just wondering, is that also kind of because of China or non-China, that kind of recovering trends or the reason that customers prefer to place more orders in our Taiwan fab, along with the probably main chip for AI or something like that?

我只是想知道，這是否也是因為中國或非中國，這種復甦趨勢，或者是客戶更願意在我們的台灣工廠下更多訂單的原因，以及可能用於人工智慧的主要晶片或類似的東西？

You're looking at the -- due to the BIS regulatory control, some of the loading are migrating from China to Taiwan. We see some of that, but that is not a major variable in our report.

您正在查看—由於美國商務部工業和安全局的監管控制，部分貨物正在從中國轉移到台灣。我們看到了一些這樣的情況，但這並不是我們報告中的主要變數。

I think also the -- if it's BIS, I think most of the packages are more advanced rather than wirebond.

我還認為——如果是 BIS，我認為大多數封裝都比引線鍵合更先進。

Okay. Sure. Also, I think Ken and Joseph, you probably already talked a little bit about that, but as we see a lot of leading-edge advanced packaging happening for different type of design, like CoWoS or panel-based or CPO, what will be the key consideration on your capacity preparation? And particularly, everything seems to be quite tight and AI chips development is very fast. So just wondering how you would plan your capacity and CapEx parity.

好的。當然。此外，我想 Ken 和 Joseph，你們可能已經談論過這一點，但是當我們看到許多尖端先進封裝出現在不同類型的設計中時，例如 CoWoS 或基於面板或 CPO，你們在產能準備方面主要考慮的因素是什麼？尤其是現在一切都顯得非常緊張，人工智慧晶片的發展非常快。所以只是想知道您將如何規劃您的產能和資本支出平價。

And also for the final testing starting from Q4 this year, I'm just wondering, is that also including the burning and also the system-level testing?

另外，對於從今年第四季開始的最終測試，我只是想知道，這是否也包括刻錄和系統級測試？

So Laura, you're asking about our LEAP services and how we prioritize funding those LEAP services, including to some extent, the final test services provided for leading edge.

勞拉，您問的是我們的 LEAP 服務以及我們如何優先資助這些 LEAP 服務，包括在某種程度上為前沿技術提供的最終測試服務。

The investment on factory facility, that is very flexible. I mean that's the nature of OSAT, and that's what we do. A large portion of the equipment, they do have some intrinsic fungibility. In other words, why we're going through different code names.

對工廠設施的投資非常靈活。我的意思是，這就是 OSAT 的本質，這就是我們所做的。很大一部分設備確實具有一些內在的可替代性。換句話說，為什麼我們要使用不同的代號。

And I think you know the code names better than I do. Intrinsically, we are doing this every day, not just this year. So even for the advanced packaging, there's still intrinsic fungibility that any company needs to master, although more complicated. So the investment that we put in, we want to make sure our capacity has the fungibility, the flexibility which you can guard at 5 to 10 years of utilization, right? So that's one question.

我認為你比我更了解這些代號。從本質上來說，我們每天都在這樣做，而不僅僅是今年。因此，即使對於先進封裝，任何公司仍然需要掌握其內在的可替代性，儘管這更為複雜。因此，我們投入的投資，我們希望確保我們的產能具有可替代性、靈活性，並且可以在 5 到 10 年的利用率內得到保障，對嗎？這是一個問題。

In terms of the testing, I'm pretty sure our testing revenue will include burn as well as system level test. I won't be able to give you a percentage of that in detail. So as customers are requiring more ATC as well as thermal variation, I think that becomes one area included in the power management as well as the testing solution. I think that's part of the technology development that we're going through.

在測試方面，我非常確定我們的測試收入將包括燒錄以及系統級測試。我無法向您詳細透露其中的百分比。因此，由於客戶要求更多的 ATC 以及熱變化，我認為這成為電源管理和測試解決方案中包含的領域。我認為這是我們正在經歷的技術發展的一部分。

In the right time, we will come out and announce the overall power management solution, including assembly and testing as well some of the IP innovation. Hopefully, we can schedule this sometime next year.

在適當的時候，我們將推出並發布整體電源管理解決方案，包括組裝和測試以及一些 IP 創新。希望我們能在明年某個時候安排此事。

We have more questions from the floor. We have one additional question from Laura. No. We have one additional question.

我們還有更多問題。勞拉也向我們提出了一個問題。不。我們還有一個問題。

Are there any more questions on the floor? No? Bruce has a question.

還有其他問題嗎？不？布魯斯有一個問題。

I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. Number one is that when we talk about the overseas investment, US is not in the shortlist. Is that right?

我只是想澄清幾件事。第一，當我們談到海外投資時，美國並不在候選名單中。是嗎？

I'm going to be very careful answering these questions. Please go read our announcement. We have made clear announcement that we are supporting one of the large customers going into United States. I'm not going to say anything other than that. Anything related to US investment, please read our press release.

我會非常小心地回答這些問題。請閱讀我們的公告。我們已經明確宣布，我們正在支持一家進入美國的大客戶。除此之外我不會說其他任何話。任何與美國投資有關的事情，請閱讀我們的新聞稿。

Okay. The second thing is that Ken, can I double check that what is the latest CapEx forecast for the full year in '25 for equipment and total CapEx.

好的。第二件事是，肯，我能否再確認 25 年全年設備和總資本支出的最新資本支出預測是多少。

For this year? I think Ken just mentioned that we are upping -- because the capacity right now is very tight and the demand is very high, so we are upping our machinery CapEx a few hundred million dollars. By a few hundred million, I means $300 million to $400 million. And the bulk of the -- I would think almost 90% of this increase is really for leading edge as we see demand continues to be very strong, particularly going into 2026. So I think the increase of CapEx is really trickled into the fourth quarter.

今年呢？我想肯剛才提到我們正在增加——因為目前的產能非常緊張，而需求很高，所以我們將把機械資本支出增加幾億美元。我所說的幾億是指3億到4億美元。我認為，其中幾乎 90% 的成長確實是為了尖端技術，因為我們看到需求持續強勁，尤其是進入 2026 年。所以我認為資本支出的成長確實會滲透到第四季。

It's more geared to packaging or testing?

它更適合包裝還是測試？

Joseph and I had a long debate on this. As a CFO, he tends to be very concerned about the operation guys are spending money like crazy. My advice to him is, everybody wants to spend CapEx. The only people who has order can spend the CapEx.

約瑟夫和我對此進行了長時間的辯論。作為一名財務官，他往往非常關心營運人員瘋狂花錢的情況。我對他的建議是，每個人都想花費資本支出。只有有秩序的人才能花費資本支出。

The question now is the -- that puts a lot of burden on execution. If the operation team cannot fulfill the things online, it becomes a problem. We understand that. So the CFO concern is legitimate and right on.

現在的問題是──這給執行帶來了很大的負擔。如果營運團隊無法完成線上的事情，那就有問題了。我們明白這一點。因此，財務長的擔憂是合理且正確的。

The team collectively decided we're going to go through this CapEx ramp mainly because our partner as well as our key client for the next 10 years, they would like to have a trusted partner that can execute. The speed of that will define how are we going to invest further in Taiwan as well as outside of Taiwan. So this goes to a long way. Therefore, we decided to bite the bullet and just go through that.

團隊一致決定，我們將透過這項資本支出成長，主要是因為我們的合作夥伴以及未來 10 年的關鍵客戶希望擁有一個可以執行的值得信賴的合作夥伴。這一速度將決定我們如何在台灣以及台灣以外地區進一步投資。這有很大幫助。因此，我們決定咬緊牙關，堅持下去。

I think to give you a little bit color. I think for this year's machinery CapEx, roughly 60% will be for assembly and 30% for test and 10% for others and material. That includes material and EMS, right? And also on this machinery CapEx, I think about 60% is for leading edge.

我想給你一點顏色看看。我認為今年的機械資本支出大約 60% 用於組裝，30% 用於測試，10% 用於其他和材料。其中包括材料和 EMS，對嗎？而且在這筆機械資本支出中，我認為大約 60% 是用於尖端技術。

Don't look at the numbers too much because the machine delivery, it can change. The execution, including building new buildings, hiring new people, I mean there's a lot of variable. But right now, we do have a high aspiration to do this.

不要過度關注數字，因為機器交付時它可能會發生變化。執行過程中，包括建造新建築、僱用新員工，有許多變數。但現在，我們確實有很高的願望去實現這一點。

So Tien, just wanted to zoom out and think about this. This is the first time I've seen ASE enter this like massive CapEx investment and hyper growth kind of stage. And I think as you discussed earlier, I think it's a very careful consideration that the management team has placed. Where do you want to be, let's say, in three to five years' time? I think ASE is -- I think if I just look at ATM, it's a $12 million revenue operation, maybe mid-30s market share in OSAT.

所以 Tien，只是想縮小範圍來思考這個問題。這是我第一次看到 ASE 進入如此大規模的資本支出投資和超高速成長階段。我認為正如您之前所討論的，管理團隊已經進行了非常仔細的考慮。比如說，三到五年後你想達到什麼程度？我認為 ASE 是——我想如果我只看 ATM，它的營運收入為 1200 萬美元，在 OSAT 中的市場份額可能為 30% 左右。

What constitutes success of this plan? Let's say, if we roll out maybe three to five years, like what does a successful ASE look like at the kind of culmination of this hyper investment phase?

該計劃的成功取決於什麼？假設我們推出三到五年，那麼在這個超級投資階段的巔峰，成功的 ASE 是什麼樣的呢？

Okay, you're looking to see how we define our own successes within the company?

好的，您想知道我們如何定義公司內部的成功？

Yes, I'm sure you are spending billions of dollars, so you do have some targets in mind. So just wanted to understand what do you define success as at the culmination of this heavy investment phase?

是的，我相信你們花了數十億美元，所以你們心中確實有一些目標。所以只是想了解一下，在大量投資階段的頂峰，您對成功的定義是什麼？

I think this is the exercise we're going through. For example, if you look at the traditional OSAT, you can define the revenue, the margin and the CapEx you have some ratio. If you look at the key foundry supplier, their CapEx on their assembly and test will have a different ratio. So we're going through is to take this from the traditional OSAT ratio to the foundry ratio, and we're climbing stairs.

我認為這就是我們正在進行的練習。例如，如果你看傳統的 OSAT，你可以定義收入、利潤和資本支出，你有一些比率。如果你看一下主要的代工供應商，他們在組裝和測試上的資本支出會有不同的比例。因此，我們正在經歷從傳統 OSAT 比例到代工比例的轉變，並且正在逐步實現跨越式發展。

Then the question is, why are we doing this? Well, because the foundry partner wants you to do this because their end customer wants both of us to do this. The question now is, who has the capability to execute this to the scale that becomes a competitive advantages over time. This includes not only the key players, also includes the whole ecosystem supporters that will enable you to do this. In terms of the margin model, I think you can apply equally.

那麼問題是，我們為什麼要這樣做？嗯，因為代工夥伴希望你這樣做，因為他們的最終客戶希望我們雙方都這樣做。現在的問題是，誰有能力實現這一目標，並隨著時間的推移成為競爭優勢。這不僅包括關鍵參與者，還包括使您能夠做到這一點的整個生態系統支持者。就保證金模型而言，我認為您可以同樣應用。

How do we define success? Going through the execution without issue and earn the larger clientele base on the longer-term basis, that will be the success.

我們如何定義成功？順利執行並在長期內贏得更大的客戶群，這就是成功。

All right. Gokul, do you have any more questions there?

好的。Gokul，你還有其他問題嗎？

Yes. So since you referred your foundry partner, in that process, their own margins have gone up maybe 10% or more. Their growth rate has accelerated quite a bit. So how do we think about our margins? I think you've talked about structural margins heading to mid-20s to high 20s.

是的。因此，自從您推薦了代工合作夥伴以來，在此過程中，他們自己的利潤率可能已經上升了 10％ 或更多。他們的成長速度加快了不少。那我們要如何看待我們的利潤呢？我認為您已經談到了結構性利潤率將達到 20% 左右到 20% 左右。

Is that where we get to? And is there any expectations on growth? Like does $12 billion become $20 billion in five years, is that our definition of success in terms of ATM revenue growth?

我們就到這裡了嗎？對於成長有什麼預期嗎？例如，五年內 120 億美元會變成 200 億美元嗎？這就是我們對 ATM 營收成長成功的定義嗎？

Well, I'm sure everybody knows that there's still a lot of moving parts and uncertainties in front of us. The world is changing very fast. Right now, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel. I think from what we learned, from what we know our own business, we are keeping our structural margin range as it is for now.

嗯，我相信大家都知道我們面前還有很多不確定因素。世界變化非常快。現在，我們不想重新發明輪子。我認為，從我們所學到的知識以及我們對自身業務的了解來看，我們目前將保持現有的結構性利潤率範圍。

And we just will see how situation changes. And if we need to make a change, we'll make a change. But at this point, there's nothing structurally different from what we originally expected.

我們將拭目以待，看看情況如何變化。如果我們需要做出改變，我們就會做出改變。但目前為止，結構上與我們原先預期的並沒有什麼不同。

I think we've hit our hard cutoff timetframe. It's 4:30 over here. Thank you very much for attending our earnings release. See you next time.

我認為我們已經達到了硬性截止期限。這邊是 4:30。非常感謝您參加我們的收益發表會。下次再見。