日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello. I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holdings. Welcome to our fourth-quarter and full-year 2024 earnings release. Thank you for attending our earnings release today.

你好。我是日月光科技控股有限公司投資者關係主管 Ken Hsiang。歡迎閱讀我們 2024 年第四季和全年財報。感謝您參加我們今天的收益發表會。

Please refer to our Safe Harbor notice on page 2. All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation in this event. If participants do not consent, please disconnect at this time.

請參閱第 2 頁的安全港通知。所有參與者同意透過參與本次活動來傳播他們的聲音和問題。如果參與者不同意，請立即斷開連線。

I would like to remind everyone that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk and our actual results may differ, materially.

我想提醒大家，接下來的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述具有高度風險，我們的實際結果可能有重大差異。

For the purposes of this presentation, dollar figures are generally stated in New Taiwan dollars, unless otherwise indicated. As a Taiwan-based company, our financial information is presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS.

為了本陳述的目的，除非另有說明，美元數字通常以新台幣表示。作為一家台灣公司，我們的財務資訊是按照台灣國際財務報告準則呈現的。

Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ, materially, from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary, using Chinese GAAP.

採用台灣 IFRS 所呈現的結果可能與採用其他會計準則（包括我們的子公司採用中國 GAAP 呈現的結果）所呈現的結果有重大差異。

I am joined today by Doctor Tien Wu, our COO, and Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's presentation, Doctor Wu will be giving the company's key message. I will be going over the financial results. And Joseph will then go through our company's guidance. Both Tien and Joseph will then be available to take your questions during the Q&A session that follows.

今天與我一起出席的還有我們的營運長 Tien Wu 博士和財務長 Joseph Tung。在今天的演講中，吳博士將傳達公司的關鍵訊息。我將回顧一下財務結果。然後約瑟夫將會接受我們公司的指導。Tien 和 Joseph 都將在接下來的問答環節回答您的問題。

During the Q&A session, I will be moderating, receiving, and as needed, clarifying, and condensing each interaction down to a single question.

在問答環節，我將主持、接收並根據​​需要澄清和將每次互動濃縮為一個問題。

With that, let me hand the presentation over to Doctor Tien Wu. Tien?

現在，請允許我將演講交給 Tien Wu 博士。田？

First of all, a belated Happy Chinese New Year to all of you. Let me give you the recap for 2024.

首先祝大家農曆新年快樂。讓我來幫你回顧一下 2024 年。

Our consolidated revenues grew 2% year on year in 2024, with ATM revenues up 3% year on year.

2024 年，我們的綜合收入年增 2%，其中 ATM 收入年增 3%。

We have seen a very strong demand for leading-edge packaging and testing. While the [Mainstream] segments was a mixed bag, we saw a soft recovery in some segment and some other segment, due to inventory correction, as was in market demand or lagging behind the general market.

我們看到對尖端封裝和測試的需求非常強勁。雖然[主流]細分市場表現好壞參半，但我們看到部分細分市場和其他一些細分市場出現疲軟復甦，原因是庫存調整，市場需求或落後於整體市場。

Leading-edge advanced packaging and testing revenues were over USD600 million, accounting for around 6% of ATM revenues, up from USD250 million in 2023.

尖端先進封裝和測試收入將超過 6 億美元，佔 ATM 收入的 6% 左右，高於 2023 年的 2.5 億美元。

Our testing business grew 9% year on year in 2024 and, in particular, grew 18% year on year in Q4 of 24. We do expect the testing revenue will have accelerated momentum into 2025 on increased turnkey, as well as our expanding leading-edge test.

我們的測試業務在2024年年增9％，特別是24年第四季年增18％。我們確實預計，隨著交鑰匙工程的增加以及我們不斷擴大的前沿測試，測試收入將在 2025 年加速成長。

Our machinery CapEx was USD1.9 billion, up by USD1 billion versus 2023, mainly driven by advanced packaging and testing.

我們的機械資本支出為 19 億美元，較 2023 年增加 10 億美元，主要受到先進封裝和測試的推動。

Next, let me give you a 2025 outlook.

接下來，我來給大家展望一下2025年。

Our ATM business to outgrow the logic semiconductor market, driven by strong momentum of our leading-edge advanced packaging and testing business.

受我們領先的先進封裝和測試業務強勁成長勢頭的推動，我們的 ATM 業務成長超越邏輯半導體市場。

Leading-edge advanced packaging and testing revenues to increase by USD1 billion versus 2024. That will account for about 10% of our growth in 2025.

尖端封裝和測試收入將較2024年增加10億美元。這將占我們2025年成長的10%左右。

While the General segment will be better than 2024, we expect them to grow mid- to high-single-digit year on year.

雖然通用部門的表現將好於 2024 年，但我們預計其同比增長將達到中高個位數。

On the investment in R&D, human capital, advanced packaging and testing capacity, and, also, factory automation, and all of the smart factory buildings, we will continue to accelerate, in preparation for the AI-led super cycle, which we believe has started in 2024 and we will see the momentum in 2025, 2026, and beyond.

在研發、人力資本、先進封裝和測試能力以及工廠自動化和所有智慧工廠建築的投資方面，我們將繼續加速，為人工智慧主導的超級週期做準備，我們相信該週期已於 2024 年啟動，我們將在 2025 年、2026 年及以後看到這一勢頭。

Lastly, let me give you a market landscape and ASE's positioning.

最後我來跟大家介紹市場格局和ASE的定位。

We believe the total semiconductor revenues are likely to reach TWD1 trillion in the next decade, driven by AI robotics, electrification of all systems. Also, the energy and the IoT-related products.

我們認為，在人工智慧機器人、所有系統電氣化的推動下，未來十年半導體總收入可能達到 1 兆新台幣。還有能源和物聯網相關產品。

ASE is well positioned to benefit from the strong demand of leading-edge advanced technology, as well as the growing volume of peripheral chips on accelerating Edge AI adoption.

日月光將受益於對尖端技術的強勁需求，以及邊緣 AI 應用加速成長帶來的周邊晶片數量成長。

A comprehensive technology toolbox -- 3D, 2.5D, fan-out, large panel, SiP, Co-Packaged optics, Power, automation -- scale advantages, as well as the geographic diversification of ASE, make ASE the preferred partner for customers.

全面的技術工具箱——3D、2.5D、扇出、大面板、SiP、共封裝光學、電源、自動化——規模優勢以及 ASE 的地域多樣化使 ASE 成為客戶的首選合作夥伴。

ASE's strong financial performance and flexibility and agility in handling business model evolutions further widen the moat against competitors.

日月光強勁的財務表現以及處理商業模式演變的靈活性和敏捷性進一步拓寬了其相對於競爭對手的護城河。

Let me pass the floor back to Ken.

讓我把發言權交還給肯。

Dr. Wu.

吳醫生。

I will now go over the financial results.

我現在將介紹財務結果。

The fourth quarter, ATM and EMS businesses came in slightly better than originally anticipated. Our ATM business' fourth-quarter outperformance was driven, primarily, by some communications-related business. Strength was driven by our test business with a growing 11% quarterly.

第四季度，ATM和EMS業務表現略優於最初預期。我們的 ATM 業務第四季的優異表現主要得益於一些與通訊相關的業務。我們的測試業務每季成長 11%，推動了業績成長。

For the full-year, our ATM business grew by 3%. Our leading-edge advanced packaging business accounted for most of this growth. And though testing finished strong, we believe our test growth will be even stronger during 2025. Our overall equipment utilization was in the mid to high 60s.

全年來看，我們的 ATM 業務成長了 3%。我們領先的先進封裝業務佔了這一成長的大部分份額。儘管測試結果強勁，但我們相信 2025 年的測試成長將更加強勁。我們的整體設備利用率在65%到69%之間。

For our EMS business, despite a muted fourth-quarter outlook due to earlier seasonality, our SiP product flow came in slightly ahead of our expectations during the fourth quarter. For the full year, our EMS business was flattish. We believe that this is somewhat in line. That, also, at the holding company level.

對於我們的 EMS 業務，儘管由於早期的季節性因素，第四季度的前景不甚明朗，但我們的 SiP 產品流量在第四季度略微超出了我們的預期。就全年而言，我們的 EMS 業務表現平淡。我們認為這是比較符合的。這也發生在控股公司層級。

Please turn to page 6, where you will find our fourth-quarter consolidated results.

請翻到第 6 頁，您將看到我們的第四季綜合業績。

For the fourth quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of TWD2.07 and basic EPS of TWD2.15.

第四季度，我們記錄的全面攤薄每股收益為 2.07 新台幣，基本每股收益為 2.15 新台幣。

Consolidated net revenues increased 1% sequentially and year over year.

合併淨收入比上一季和上年同期成長 1%。

We had a gross profit of TWD26.6 billion, with a gross margin of 16.4%. Our gross margin declined by 0.1% points sequentially and improved by 0.4 percentage points year over year. The sequential decline in margin is principally due to lower profitability from our EMS business.

毛利為266億新台幣，毛利率為16.4%。我們的毛利率比上一季下降了0.1個百分點，比去年同期提高了0.4個百分點。利潤率連續下降主要是因為我們的EMS業務獲利能力下降。

Our operating expenses increased by TWD0.4 billion sequentially and by TWD1.5 billion annually to TWD15.4 billion. The sequential increase in our operating expenses are primarily due to leading-edge advanced packaging and testing services ramp-up and timing of equity compensation-related expenses from our ATM business.

我們的營業費用比上一季增加了4億新台幣，比前一年增加了15億新台幣，達到154億新台幣。我們的營業費用連續增加主要是由於尖端封裝和測試服務的提升，以及 ATM 業務的股權補償相關費用的時間安排。

The year-over -year increase in operating expenses is primarily attributable to continued R&D staff-up and other labor-related costs. Our operating expense percentage increased sequentially by 0.2 percentage points and annually by 0.8 percentage points year over year to 9.5%.

營業費用的年增率主要歸因於持續增加的研發人員和其他與勞動力相關的成本。我們的營業費用百分比較上季增加 0.2 個百分點，較去年同期增加 0.8 個百分點，達到 9.5%。

Our operating expense probably requires a bit of explanation here. Extensive preparation and groundwork for our leading-edge advanced packaging-related businesses started in late 2023 and ramped during 2024. We have been aggressively hiring and training new employees throughout 2024. We also needed to ramp our new product introduction efforts, including perfecting tooling and process flows that eventually needed to be in place.

我們的營運費用可能需要在這裡稍微解釋一下。我們的尖端先進封裝相關業務的大量準備和基礎工作於 2023 年底開始，並於 2024 年加速推進。我們在 2024 年一直積極招募和培訓新員工。我們還需要加大新產品的推廣力度，包括完善最終需要到位的工具和流程。

Finally, semiconductor manufacturing has become very visible throughout the world. The skill sets necessary to prepare, manage, and run manufacturing, also, are in high demand.

最後，半導體製造業在世界各地已經變得非常引人注目。準備、管理和運行製造業所需的技能也需求量很大。

Retention of our employees has become increasingly important. And all of this has been done in an inflationary environment. As such, these expenditures have created a ramp in our operating expenses that started in 2024.

留住員工變得越來越重要。而這一切都是在通膨環境下完成的。因此，這些支出導致我們的營運費用從 2024 年開始增加。

We see our operating expenses continuing to rise on an absolute basis. But will level off in the middle part of 2025.

我們發現我們的營運費用絕對值持續上升。但將在 2025 年中期趨於平穩。

Further, as revenues related to these efforts grow, our operating expense percentage should start to decline during the back half of 2025.

此外，隨著與這些努力相關的收入的成長，我們的營運費用百分比應該會在 2025 年下半年開始下降。

Operating profit was TWD11.2 billion, down TWD0.3 billion sequentially and TWD0.6 billion year over year. Operating margin declined 0.3 percentage points sequentially and declined 0.5 percentage points year over year. We believe this margin decline was primarily driven by higher compensation and ramp-up expenses related to leading-edge advanced packaging and geographical scale-up across our ATM and EMS businesses.

營業利潤為新台幣112億元，較上一季減少3億元，較去年同期減少6億元。營業利益率較上一季下降0.3個百分點，較去年同期下降0.5個百分點。我們認為，利潤率下降主要是由於與尖端封裝相關的薪酬和產能提升費用增加，以及 ATM 和 EMS 業務的地理擴張所致。

During the quarter, we had a net non-operating gain of TWD0.2 billion. Our non-operating gain for the quarter primarily consists of net foreign exchange hedging activities, profits from associates, and other non-operating income, offset, in part, by net interest expense of TWD1.3 billion.

本季度，我們的營業外淨收益為2億新台幣。本季我們的非營業收益主要包括淨外匯對沖活動、來自聯營公司的利潤和其他非營業收入，部分被13億新台幣的淨利息支出所抵銷。

Tax expense for the quarter was TWD1.9 billion. Our effective tax rate for the quarter was 16%. The effective tax rate during the quarter was lower than expected, primarily as a result of higher tax investment credit recognition.

本季稅金支出為19億新台幣。我們本季的有效稅率為 16%。本季有效稅率低於預期，主要原因是稅收投資抵免確認額較高。

Net income for the quarter was TWD9.3 billion, representing a decrease of TWD0.4 billion sequentially and TWD0.1 billion year over year.

本季淨利為93億新台幣，較上一季減少4億新台幣，較去年同期減少1億新台幣。

The NT dollar appreciated 0.5% against the US dollar sequentially while depreciating 0.75% annually.

新台幣兌美元上一季升值0.5%，年減0.75%。

From a sequential perspective, we estimate the NT dollar appreciation had a 0.1-percentage-point negative impact to the company's gross and operating margins. While from an annual perspective, we estimate the NT dollar depreciation had a 0.2-percentage-point positive impact to the company's gross and operating margins.

從環比角度來看，我們估計新台幣升值對公司的毛利率和營業利潤率產生了 0.1 個百分點的負面影響。而從年度角度來看，我們估計新台幣貶值將對公司的毛利率和營業利潤率產生 0.2 個百分點的正面影響。

On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items, without the inclusion of PPA-related expenses.

在頁面底部，我們提供了關鍵的損益項目，但不包括與 PPA 相關的費用。

Consolidated gross profit, excluding PPA ,expenses would be TWD27.3 billion, with a 16.8% gross margin.

扣除電力購買費用(PPA)後，綜合毛利為273億新台幣，毛利率為16.8%。

Operating profit would be TWD12.1 billion, with an operating margin of 7.5%.

營業利益為121億新台幣，營業利益率為7.5%。

Net profit would be TWD10.2 billion, with a net margin of 6.3%.

淨利為102億新台幣，淨利率為6.3%。

Basic EPS, excluding PPA expenses, would be TWD2.36.

扣除電力購買協議 (PPA) 費用後，基本每股收益為 2.36 台幣。

Please refer to page 7. Here, you will find the 2024 consolidated full-year result versus 2023 full-year results.

請參閱第 7 頁。在這裡，您可以找到 2024 年綜合全年業績與 2023 年全年業績的比較。

Fully diluted EPS for the year was TWD7.23 while basic EPS was TWD7.52.

本年度全面攤薄每股收益為7.23新台幣，基本每股收益為7.52新台幣。

For 2024, consolidated net revenues improved 2% as compared with 2023. ATM improved by 3% while EMS business improved 2% annually.

2024 年，合併淨收入與 2023 年相比成長 2%。ATM 業務每年成長 3%，而 EMS 業務每年成長 2%。

Gross profit, for the year, was TWD96.9 billion, improving TWD5.2 billion year over year or by 6%.

全年毛利為969億新台幣，較上年增加52億新台幣，成長6%。

In 2024, our consolidated gross margin improved 0.5 percentage points to 16.3%, principally as a result of foreign currency fluctuation and improved operating leverage from our ATM business, offset, in part, by higher utility costs.

2024 年，我們的綜合毛利率提高了 0.5 個百分點，達到 16.3%，這主要是由於外匯波動和 ATM 業務的經營槓桿率提高，但部分抵消了公用事業成本的提高。

Operating expenses increased TWD6.4 billion, for the year, and came in at TWD57.8 billion. Higher operating expenses, as discussed earlier, are the results of the ramp up of leading-edge advanced packaging services and higher labor-related costs.

全年營業費用增加64億新台幣，達578億新台幣。如同前面所討論的，更高的營運費用是由於尖端封裝服務的增加和與勞動力相關的成本的增加所導致的。

Our overall operating expense percentage also increased to 9.7%, as a result of these increases.

由於這些成長，我們的整體營運費用百分比也增加到了 9.7%。

Operating profit for the year was TWD39.2 billion for the year, declining TWD1.1 billion. Operating margin for the year was 6.6%, representing a decline of 0.3 percentage points from 2023.

全年營業利潤392億新台幣，年減11億新台幣。全年營業利益率為 6.6%，較 2023 年下降 0.3 個百分點。

We recorded a net non-operating gain of TWD2.5 billion for the year, including a net interest expense of TWD4.9 billion versus TWD4.7 billion in 2023.

我們全年錄得 25 億新台幣淨營業外收益，其中淨利息支出 49 億新台幣，而 2023 年為 47 億新台幣。

And though interest rates may appear to be moderating, we believe that our interest expenses will, most likely, increase or stay near current levels heading into next year, given additional borrowing necessary to fund our expansion.

儘管利率看似正在緩和，但我們認為，考慮到擴張所需的額外借款，到明年，我們的利息支出很可能會增加或保持在當前水準附近。

Most of the non-operating gains we're associated with our foreign currency hedging activities.

我們的非營業收益大多與外匯對沖活動有關。

Total tax expense was TWD7.8 billion. The effective tax rate for the year was 18.6%. Current-year income tax expense came in lower as a result of recognized deferred tax assets from increased government incentive programs on R&D.

總稅費為78億新台幣。本年度有效稅率為18.6%。由於政府增加研發獎勵計畫而確認的遞延稅項資產導致當年所得稅費用降低。

For the coming year, we believe our ongoing effective tax rate will be lowered by increased government incentive programs and offset, in part, by recent global minimum tax applications. We expect that the effective tax rate for the coming year will be slightly below 20%.

對於來年，我們相信，我們目前的有效稅率將因政府激勵計畫的增加而降低，並在一定程度上被最近的全球最低稅應用所抵消。我們預計未來一年的有效稅率將略低於20%。

Net income for the year increased by 2% to TWD32.5 billion. On a full-year basis, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a positive 0.8-percentage-point impact to gross and operating margins.

全年淨利增加2%至325億新台幣。從全年來看，我們估計新台幣貶值將對毛利率和營業利率產生 0.8 個百分點的正面影響。

Removing the effect of PPA depreciation, our gross margin would be 16.9%. Our operating margin would be 7.3%. Our basic EPS would be TWD8.54.

除去PPA折舊的影響，我們的毛利率為16.9%。我們的營業利益率將達到7.3%。我們的基本每股收益為8.54新台幣。

On page 8 is a graphical presentation of our consolidated quarterly financial performance.

第 8 頁是我們的合併季度財務表現的圖表。

On a year-over-year basis, gross margins have been gradually improving. On the operating margin front, as was stated earlier, operating expenses increased, in preparation of leading-edge advanced packaging capacity, labor staff-up, offshore site expansion costs from our EMS businesses, and equity compensation.

與去年同期相比，毛利率逐漸增加。在營業利潤率方面，如前所述，營業費用增加，以準備尖端先進封裝產能、勞動力人員增加、來自我們 EMS 業務的離岸站點擴建成本以及股權補償。

On page 9 is our ATM P&L.

第 9 頁是我們的 ATM 損益表。

The ATM revenue reported, here, contains revenues eliminated at the holding company level, relating to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses.

此處報告的 ATM 收入包含在控股公司層級消除的收入，與我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易有關。

The full-year 2024 revenues for our ATM business were TWD88.4 billion, up 2.6% from the previous quarter and up $6.4 billion from the same period last year. This represents a 3% increase sequentially and an 8% increase annually.

我們 ATM 業務的 2024 年全年營收為 884 億新台幣，較上一季成長 2.6%，較去年同期成長 64 億美元。這意味著環比增長 3%，年增長率為 8%。

Gross profit for our ATM business was TW 20.6 billion, up TWD0.8 billion sequentially and up TWD1.4 billion year over year.

ATM 業務毛利為 206 億新台幣，比上一季增加 8 億新台幣，比去年同期增加 14 億新台幣。

Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 23.3%, up 0.2% sequentially and down 0.1% year over year.

我們 ATM 業務的毛利率為 23.3%，比上一季成長 0.2%，比去年同期下降 0.1%。

(technical difficulty)

（技術難度）

During the fourth quarter, operating expenses (technical difficulty) -- and up by TWD0.6 billion sequentially and TWD1.2 billion The sequential increase in operating expenses was primarily driven by scale-up of compensation costs, including headcount and timing of certain equity compensation.

第四季度，營業費用（技術難度）－比上一季度增加6億新台幣，比上一季度增加12億新台幣。

(technical difficulty) for higher leading-edge advanced packaging revenues.

（技術難度）以獲得更高的尖端先進封裝收入。

During the fourth quarter, operating profit was TWD9.4 billion, representing an increase of TWD0.2 billion, both quarterly and annually.

第四季營業利潤為94億新台幣，較上季及上年同期均增加2億新台幣。

Operating margin was 10.7%, flat, sequentially and down 0.5 percentage points year over year.

營業利益率為 10.7%，與上一季持平，比去年同期下降 0.5 個百分點。

For foreign exchange, we estimate that the NT to US dollar exchange rate (technical difficulty) negative 0.2-percentage-point impact on ATM sequential margins and a positive 0.4-percentage-point impact on a year-over-year basis.

對於外匯，我們估計新台幣兌美元的匯率（技術難度）對 ATM 利潤率環比產生負 0.2 個百分點的影響，對去年同期產生正 0.4 個百分點的影響。

(technical difficulty) The operating profit margin would be 11.6%.

(技術難度) 營業利益率將達11.6%。

On page 10, we have our ATM full-year P&L.

第 10 頁是我們的 ATM 全年損益表。

2024 revenues for our ATM business improved by 3%, with our packaging and test businesses up 2% and 9%, respectively.

2024年我們的 ATM 業務收入成長了 3%，其中封裝和測試業務分別成長了 2% 和 9%。

Gross profit for the year improved 6% to TWD73.2 billion. Gross margin was 22.5%, up 0.7 percentage points. Margin improvement was the result of higher factory efficiency and a favorable foreign exchange environment, offset, in part, by higher utility costs and factory supply consumption, due to shifting product mix.

全年毛利成長6%至732億新台幣。毛利率為22.5%，上升0.7個百分點。利潤率提高的主要原因是工廠效率提高和有利的外匯環境，但產品結構轉變導致的公用事業成本上升和工廠供應消耗增加在一定程度上抵消了利潤率提高的影響。

Our operating expense percentage increased 0.9 percentage points to 12.6%.

我們的營業費用百分比增加了0.9個百分點，達到12.6%。

Operating profit nudged up TWD0.2 billion to TWD32 billion, while operating margin declined 0.3 percentage points to 9.8%.

營業利潤小幅增加2億新台幣至320億新台幣，營業利益率則下滑0.3個百分點至9.8%。

For foreign exchange, on a full-year basis, we estimate that the depreciating NT dollar had a 1.4-percentage- point impact on margins.

就外匯而言，以全年計算，我們估計新台幣貶值對利潤率產生了 1.4 個百分點的影響。

Without the impact of PPA expenses, gross profit margin would be 23.5% and operating margin would be 11.1%.

若不考慮PPA費用的影響，毛利率為23.5%，營業利益率為11.1%。

On (technical difficulty), you will find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L.

在（技術難度）上，您將看到我們的 ATM 損益表的圖形表示。

On page 12 is our ATM revenue by 3C market segments.

第 12 頁是我們按 3C 市場細分的 ATM 收入。

You can see, here, the relative strength of our Communication segment during the fourth quarter. As previously mentioned, our leading-edge advanced services are, currently, spread across our Computing and Communication segments.

您可以在這裡看到我們通訊部門在第四季度的相對實力。如前所述，我們領先的先進服務目前遍布計算和通訊領域。

On page 13, you will find our ATM revenue by service type.

在第 13 頁，您將看到我們按服務類型劃分的 ATM 收入。

The most prominent thing, here, is that our wirebond services saw gradual declines over the last eight quarters. Traditional wirebond products are in everyday electronics like Wi-Fi, televisions, and household appliances. Frequently, they are not the main chip but mainly serve supporting roles as peripherals, like a screen or power controller.

這裡最突出的是，我們的引線鍵合服務在過去八個季度中逐漸下滑。傳統的引線鍵合產品廣泛用於日常電子產品中，例如 Wi-Fi、電視和家用電器。通常，它們不是主晶片，而主要作為外圍設備發揮輔助作用，例如螢幕或電源控制器。

This chart shows a somewhat simple concept. More basic products, like many of those upgraded during COVID, have a longer replacement cycle.

這張圖表展示了一個相當簡單的概念。更基礎的產品（例如許多在 COVID 期間升級的產品）的更換週期更長。

We would expect to see a pickup in wirebond, when a general recovery starts to happen. A corollary you can see from this chart is that there is strength in our advanced packaging and test businesses.

當整體復甦開始發生時，我們預計會看到引線鍵合的回升。從該圖表中您可以看到，我們的先進封裝和測試業務實力雄厚。

We believe our efforts involved with growing our test business are continuing to pay off. Our test services have also managed to outgrow the corporate average, going from 16% to 18% of ATM. Our test business grew by 11% quarterly and 18% annually.

我們相信，我們為擴大測試業務所付出的努力將繼續獲得回報。我們的測試服務也超越了企業平均水平，從 ATM 的 16% 上升到 18%。我們的測試業務每季成長 11%，每年成長 18%。

As Dr. Wu mentioned earlier, we see our test business accelerating during 2025.

正如吳博士之前提到的，我們預計我們的測試業務將在 2025 年加速發展。

On page 14, you can see the fourth-quarter results of our EMS business.

在第 14 頁，您可以看到我們的 EMS 業務第四季的業績。

During the quarter, EMS revenues were TWD74.9 billion, declining TWD0.5 billion, or 1%, sequentially, and TWD4.3 billion, or 5%, year over year. The sequential and annual revenue declines are primarily the result of accelerated seasonality for the year.

本季，EMS營收為749億新台幣，較上一季減少5億新台幣，降幅1%，較去年同期減少43億新台幣，降幅5%。連續和年度收入下降主要是由於今年季節性因素加速導致的。

Sequentially, our EMS business' gross margin declined 0.7 percentage points to 8.3%. This change was principally the result of product mix and lowering operating leverage.

與上一季相比，我們的EMS業務毛利率下降0.7個百分點至8.3%。這項變化主要是產品結構和降低經營槓桿的結果。

Operating expenses business declined (technical difficulty) --

營業費用業務下降（技術難度）——

Our total interest bearing debt increased by TWD0.7 billion to TWD213.9 billion.

公司總計息債務增加了7億新台幣，達到2,139億新台幣。

Total unused credit lines amounted to TWD375.7 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was TWD28.8 billion. Our net debt to equity, this quarter, was 0.37.

尚未使用的信用額度總額為3,757億新台幣。我們本季的 EBITDA 為 288 億新台幣。本季度，我們的淨負債與股權比率為 0.37。

On page 17, you will find our equipment capital expenditures, relative to our EBITDA.

在第 17 頁，您將看到我們的設備資本支出相對於我們的 EBITDA 的情況。

Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the fourth quarter, in US, dollars totaled USD640 million. Of which, USD321 million were used in packaging operations, USD290 million in testing operations, USD$23 million in EMS operations, and USD5 million in interconnect material operations and others.

第四季機械設備資本支出（以美元計）總計6.4億美元。其中，封裝業務花費3.21億美元，測試業務花費2.9億美元，EMS業務花費0.23億美元，互連材料業務及其他花費0.5億美元。

Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for 2024, in US ,dollars totaled USD1.876 billion. Of which, USD957 million were used in packaging operations, USD815 million in testing operations, USD89 million in EMS operations, and USD15 million in interconnect material operations and others.

2024 年機械設備資本支出（以美元計）總計 18.76 億美元。其中，封裝業務花費9.57億美元，測試業務花費8.15億美元，EMS業務花費8,900萬美元，互連材料業務及其他業務花費1,500萬美元。

In addition to spending on machinery and equipment, we also spent USD655 million on land and building or, for simplicity's sake, facilities, during the fourth quarter. While spending USD1.1 billion for the full year.

除了機械設備支出外，第四季度我們還花費了 6.55 億美元用於土地和建築物（為簡單起見，簡稱，簡稱為設施）。而全年支出則為11億美元。

During the year 2024, we invested, significantly, in our facilities as part of our generational advancement in packaging technology. Given that our facilities spending is sporadic in nature, we have historically discussed our capital expenditures, mainly as it pertains to our machinery and equipment spending, for the sake of comparability.

2024 年，我們對設施進行了大量投資，這是我們在包裝技術方面邁出的一代進步的一部分。鑑於我們的設施支出本質上是零星的，為了便於比較，我們歷來討論我們的資本支出，主要是涉及我們的機械和設備支出。

Our facilities were also previously more generic and not as specialized as our machinery and equipment. But as factory automation, advancing technologies, and tighter building specifications are, now, driving new facility investments, the scale of investment steps up. And, now, also, represents significant technology advancements and competitive advantages for our businesses.

我們的設施以前也比較通用，不像我們的機械和設備那樣專業化。但隨著工廠自動化、先進技術和更嚴格的建築規範推動新設施投資，投資規模也不斷擴大。現在，這也代表著我們業務的重大技術進步和競爭優勢。

At this point, I would like to hand the presentation over to Joseph for further discussion on our overall company outlook. Joseph?

現在，我想將演講交給約瑟夫，以便進一步討論我們公司的整體前景。約瑟夫？

Thank you, again. Let me give you our first-quarter 2025 outlook.

再次感謝您。讓我來為你介紹一下我們對 2025 年第一季的展望。

Based on our current business outlook and exchange rate assumption, we project overall performance for the first quarter of 2025 to be as follows:

根據我們目前的業務前景和匯率假設，我們預測 2025 年第一季的整體表現如下：

For ATM, in NT dollar terms, our ATM first-quarter 2025 revenue should decline by mid-single-digit quarter over quarter. And the gross profit margin should decline by slightly more than 1 percentage point quarter over quarter.

對於 ATM，以新台幣計算，我們的 2025 年第一季的 ATM 收入應該會較上季下降中個位數。毛利率應較上一季下降1個百分點以上。

For EMS, in NT dollar terms, our EMS first-quarter 2025 revenue should decline, slightly, year over year. Our EMS first-quarter 2025 operating margin should decline by 30 basis points year over year.

對於 EMS，以新台幣計算，我們的 2025 年第一季的 EMS 收入應該會比去年同期略有下降。我們的 EMS 2025 年第一季營業利潤率應較去年同期下降 30 個基點。

Now, on top of our first-quarter guidance, I would also like to give you some more color of our ATM business in 2025.

現在，除了我們第一季的指引之外，我還想向您介紹一些我們 2025 年 ATM 業務的情況。

First, on revenue, as Tien mentioned, our leading-edge packaging and testing business will continue to see very strong momentum. And we expect to add another TWD1 billion of revenue in this area, or 10% of our ATM revenue growth.

首先，就收入而言，正如田先生所提到的，我們領先的封裝和測試業務將繼續保持強勁勢頭。我們預計該領域的收入將增加10億新台幣，佔ATM收入成長的10%。

In terms of general markets, we expect our revenue to grow, in line with the industry, giving us above mid-single-digit ATM revenue growth.

就一般市場而言，我們預計我們的收入將與產業同步成長，使我們的 ATM 收入實現高於中位數個位數的成長率。

And to support such business prospects, we will need to further expand our CapEx in both capacity and matching facilities.

為了支持這樣的業務前景，我們需要進一步擴大產能和配套設施的資本支出。

For machinery and equipment, we expect our 2025 CapEx to be the annualized amount of fourth-quarter '24 number. And, of which, 60% will be used for leading-edge to support the strong demand.

對於機械和設備，我們預計 2025 年的資本支出將是 24 年第四季的年化金額。其中 60% 將用於尖端技術，以支援強勁的需求。

Also, to support the aggressive expansion of both turnkey and pure testing businesses, over 30% of the total CapEx amount for the year will be allocated to testing.

此外，為了支持交鑰匙業務和純測試業務的積極擴張，今年總資本支出的 30% 以上將用於測試。

Also, as mentioned by Tien, smart factory buildings have become an essential part of our overall leading-edge service offering. As such, we will need to double our CapEx in facilities to around USD2 billion in multiple new sites, both in Taiwan and overseas.

此外，正如 Tien 所說，智慧工廠建築已成為我們整體前沿服務產品的重要組成部分。因此，我們需要在台灣和海外的多個新基地將設施資本支出增加一倍至約 20 億美元。

Secondly, I would like to talk about our profitability.

第二我想講一下我們的獲利能力。

We ended in 2024 with an ATM gross profit margin of around 22.5%, which is a bit short of our structural growth margin target of '24, due to a softer than expected recovery of general markets and, consequentially, a sub-70% utilization rates.

截至 2024 年，我們的 ATM 毛利率約為 22.5%，略低於我們 24 年的結構性成長利潤率目標，原因是一般市場的復甦速度低於預期，因此利用率低於 70%。

On top of that, our margin was also impacted by the inflationary environment with elevated costs, including electricity prices and logistics cost in (inaudible) et cetera.

除此之外，我們的利潤率也受到通膨環境的影響，包括電價和物流成本上升（聽不清楚）等等。

We're also experiencing higher ramp-up costs of manpower and capacity, as we're in the investment and expansion mode, at this point.

由於我們目前處於投資和擴張模式，因此我們也經歷了更高的人力和產能提升成本。

Entering 2025, once we progressively complete the full ramp of our leading-edge capacity, in the second half of this year, we expect ATM growth profit margin to reach the midpoint of our structural [GM range], with 2025 full-year ATM growth margin recovering to structural [GM] target of 24% to 30%. And expect to see further improvement in profitability in 2026, as we continue to expand our business.

進入2025年，一旦我們逐步完成尖端產能的全面提升，在今年下半年，我們預計ATM成長利潤率將達到我們結構性[GM範圍]的中點，2025年全年ATM成長利潤率將恢復到24%至30%的結構性[GM]目標。隨著我們繼續擴展業務，預計 2026 年獲利能力將進一步提高。

Operating expenses. The higher operating expenses is mainly due to active R&D investment, including staffing up of R&D personnel, our Taiwan and overseas expansion, and upfront cost of some new facility.

營業費用。營業費用增加主要由於積極的研發投資，包括研發人員的增加、台灣及海外的業務擴張、以及一些新設施的前期成本。

We do expect, in 2025, ATM operating expense ratio should decline by a notch but remain to be higher than previous years, as we continue the investment in leading-edge technology, human capital, as well as varying upfront costs related to new facilities.

我們確實預計，到 2025 年，ATM 營運費用率將略有下降，但仍將高於前幾年，因為我們將繼續對尖端技術、人力資本以及與新設施相關的各種前期成本進行投資。

We believe the operating leverage of these investments will become more meaningful. (inaudible) But, with that in mind, we will stay focused on effectively executing our plan for the year and, hopefully, we will have a very decent 2025 ahead of us.

我們相信這些投資的營運槓桿將變得更有意義。（聽不清楚）但是，考慮到這一點，我們將繼續專注於有效執行今年的計劃，並希望我們能夠度過一個非常好的 2025 年。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

During the Q&A session that follows, we would appreciate if questions can be kept concise and asked one at a time.

在接下來的問答環節中，如果您能簡潔地提出問題並且一次只提出一個問題，我們將不勝感激。

Callers will be allowed to ask two questions per turn. But questions are to be asked one at a time.

每輪呼叫者可以提問兩個問題。但問題必須一個一個地提出。

I will be receiving each question and repeating the asked question to Joseph and Tien.

我將接收每個問題並向 Joseph 和 Tien 重複提出的問題。

Again, we will be limiting the number of questions asked to two questions per turn. But asked one at a time.

再次強調，我們將限制每輪提問的問題數量為兩個。但每次只問一個。

Laura Chen, Citigroup.

花旗集團的 Laura Chen。

Hello. Thank you for taking my questions. Good afternoon, gentlemen.

你好。感謝您回答我的問題。先生們，下午好。

My first question is that -- can I clarify what you mentioned, about, like, TWD1 billion revenue for the leading-edge contribution -- is additional new -- another TWD1 billion contribution or the overall advanced packaging would contribute about TWD1 billion?

我的第一個問題是——我能否澄清一下您提到的大約 10 億新台幣的尖端貢獻收入——是額外的——另外 10 億新台幣的貢獻，還是整體先進封裝將貢獻約 10 億新台幣？

Sorry, can you make it clear?

抱歉，您能說清楚點嗎？

Tien mentioned is that, on top of the TWD600 million dollar revenue we achieved in 2024, we will add another TWD1 billion of revenue in the leading-edge.

田先生提到的是，我們在2024年實現的6億新台幣營收基礎上，將在前沿領域再增加10億新台幣的營收。

Okay. Thank you. That's very clear.

好的。謝謝。這非常清楚。

And can you further, also, clarify that among that -- can we have breakdown of that advanced packagings or 2.5Ds between, like, a GPU or, potentially, AI [Esek] or, maybe, Edge AI as well?

您能否進一步澄清一下，我們能否將先進的封裝或 2.5D 分解到 GPU 或潛在的 AI [Esek] 或 Edge AI 之間？

It is (inaudible). We will not give you the breakdown.

這是（聽不清楚）。我們不會提供您明細。

Okay. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

My second question is we know that, recently, based on the new restrictions from the US BIS, if Chinese clients at TSMC, the advance note they need to be packaging by so-called approved, (technical difficulty) so otherwise, TSMC may not really be able to ship to those Chinese customers.

我的第二個問題是，我們知道最近根據美國商務部工業和安全局的新限制，如果台積電的中國客戶提前通知他們需要通過所謂的批准進行包裝，（技術難度）否則，台積電可能真的無法發貨給那些中國客戶。

So from ASE perspective, since we are in the [wide list], I'm just wondering that do we see that surge request or order -- would that impact our -- due to ration rate or, like, a potential -- the older visibility or outlook in the near term?

因此從 ASE 的角度來看，由於我們位於 [廣泛列表] 中，我只是想知道我們是否看到了激增的請求或訂單 - 這是否會影響我們的 - 由於配給率或潛在的 - 近期的舊可見性或前景？

Thank you.

謝謝。

Hi, Laura. You are asking about the BIS impact on our business, right? In general?

你好，蘿拉。您問的是 BIS 對我們業務的影響，對嗎？一般來說？

Right.

正確的。

This is a new regulation from BIS. And, as we speak, we are working aggressively with our foundry partner, as well as many customers.

這是BIS的一項新規定。正如我們所說，我們正在與我們的代工合作夥伴以及許多客戶積極合作。

We're trying to understand the detailed execution, the rules, and, also, the capacity requirement. So all of these are in the process, right now.

我們正在嘗試了解詳細的執行情況、規則以及容量要求。目前，所有這些都還在進行中。

The number that we have provided, currently, does not include this potential upside. We do understand there will be an upside. However, we do not have a definitive plan in terms of when this upside will happen. The pricing, as well as the type of package that are required.

目前，我們提供的數字並不包括這種潛在的上升空間。我們確實知道這將會帶來好處。然而，我們對於何時會出現這種上漲趨勢還沒有明確的計畫。定價以及所需的包裹類型。

So, at this point in time, we do understand this is an upside. And we are aggressively working with our partner and customer trying to fulfill that demand. But, right now, we do not have any more detailed information to provide.

因此，目前我們確實明白這是一件好事。我們正在積極與合作夥伴和客戶合作，努力滿足這項需求。但目前，我們還沒有更詳細的資訊可以提供。

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. Very clear.

好的。謝謝。我很感激。非常清楚。

(technical difficulty)

（技術難度）

Hello, gentlemen (inaudible), belated Happy New Year.

大家好，先生們（聽不清楚），新年快樂。

So my first question is, really, about your new business developments, right? Especially, you, at the beginning -- the open remark -- mentioned about the Co-Packaged optics, can (inaudible) talk about what the ASE Group can do for this CPO-advanced packaging and testing business?

所以我的第一個問題實際上是關於您的新業務發展，對嗎？特別是，您在一開始——開場白——提到了共同封裝的光學器件，能否（聽不清楚）談談日月光集團能為這個CPO（先進封裝測試業務）做些什麼？

Can we start from this topic?

我們可以從這個話題開始嗎？

Charlie, your question relates to Co-Packaged optics? Or are you asking, in general, about our R&D efforts?

查理，你的問題與共封裝光學器件有關嗎？還是您只是在一般性地詢問我們的研發工作？

The CPO. For example, what kind of service ASE Group can provide, timing.

首席採購官。例如ASE集團能提供什麼樣的服務，時機等。

But it would be great if you talk about a big picture, right? How you are working with that AI GPU customer supply chain and your foundry partner on this CPO development, right?

但如果你談論的是宏觀情況那就太好了，對嗎？您是如何與 AI GPU 客戶供應鏈和代工合作夥伴合作進行 CPO 開發的？

Because, I believe, it's new and there could be a lot of bottleneck in the supply chain, right? So I am not sure how ASE is going to contribute to that.

因為我相信這是一個新的領域，而且供應鏈中可能會存在很多瓶頸，對嗎？因此我不確定 ASE 將如何為此做出貢獻。

Okay. Charlie wants to know about the overall CPO involvement that ASE has, at this time.

好的。Charlie 想了解 ASE 目前的整體 CPO 參與度。

If we could first answer that?

我們能先回答一下這個問題嗎？

Well, I think, you are very (inaudible). It's a new technology and like any new technology, it takes some time to incubate.

嗯，我覺得你很（聽不清楚）。這是一項新技術，就像任何新技術一樣，它需要一些時間來孵化。

ASE is playing a critical role in the supply chain, as part of the overall puzzle. So we're working with our foundry partner closely. The foundry technology is also evolving.

作為整個供應鏈的一部分，ASE 發揮關鍵作用。因此，我們正在與我們的代工合作夥伴密切合作。代工技術也在不斷發展。

We're working with our [Esek] suppliers, their architecture and system design as well as the request to the foundry partner also evolving. And we're working with the end system. In other words, their overall thermal, electrical, power delivery.

我們正在與我們的 [Esek] 供應商合作，他們的架構和系統設計以及對代工合作夥伴的要求也在不斷發展。我們正在研究終端系統。換句話說，它們的整體熱能、電能和功率傳輸。

Under all of this constraint, we firmly believe the [superphotonics] will be a vital incremental innovation to address many of these issues. Together with other innovation.

在所有這些限制之下，我們堅信超光子學將成為解決其中許多問題的重要漸進式創新。與其他創新一起。

So, as I said, the ASE will play a critical role in this new innovation.

因此，正如我所說，ASE 將在這項新創新中發揮關鍵作用。

In terms of how do we work with our foundry, [Eseks], and the system customers, I will not be able to reveal any development plan. The only thing I can say is we've been working on this for quite some time. And then, everybody is moving very hard.

關於我們如何與我們的代工廠[Eseks]和系統客戶合作，我無法透露任何發展計劃。我唯一能說的是我們已經為此工作了很長時間。然後，每個人都非常努力地行動。

As well as there are competing technology, but as we know, all of the competing technology will have a plateau and we have a ceiling.

當然也存在競爭技術，但我們知道，所有競爭技術都會有一個平台期，而我們也有上限。

We firmly believe that the optics will be a critical innovation for the whole supply chain, the ecosystem. That's pretty much I can tell you, so far.

我們堅信光學將成為整個供應鏈和生態系統的關鍵創新。到目前為止我能告訴你的就這麼多。

In terms of revenue ramp-up, we are ramping up revenue. However, nothing major, at this point in time, if that's what you're interested.

在增加收入方面，我們正在增加收入。但是，如果您有興趣的話，目前還沒有什麼重大的事情。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Got you.

明白了。

Since Dr. Wu -- I have a second question, but, somehow, can I have a clarification on Laura's question on the your TWD1 billion revenue as well, is that okay?

因為吳博士——我還有第二個問題，但是，不知何故，我能否澄清一下勞拉關於你們 10 億新台幣收入的問題，可以嗎？

Charlie would like to -- so you're asking that this not count as your second question? Right, Charlie?

查理想——所以你問這不算是你的第二個問題？對吧，查理？

Yeah. It's just a quick clarification. Is that okay?

是的。這只是一個快速澄清。可以嗎？

Okay. Sure.

好的。當然。

If we could clarify, for Charlie and for Laura, the TWD1 billion extra revenue and the components of that?

我們能否澄清一下，對於 Charlie 和 Laura 來說，10 億新台幣的額外收入及其組成部分？

Yeah.

是的。

And then, I have a second, more important question.

然後，我還有第二個更重要的問題。

Why don't we go for the second one? I think that is also important to your investors because you can see all those the geopolitical dynamic, right? So your foundry partner may need to accelerate their US production plan.

我們為什麼不選擇第二個呢？我認為這對你的投資者來說也很重要因為你可以看到所有這些地緣政治動態，對嗎？因此，您的代工合作夥伴可能需要加快其美國生產計劃。

So there has been some discussion about whether TSMC should also do COA's capacity in the US. And we think that ASE becomes a more important partner with TSMC in COAs.

因此有一些關於台積電是否也應該在美國進行COA產能的討論。我們認為，日月光在 COA 方面將成為台積電更重要的合作夥伴。

So the reasonable question is said that whether ASE is considering your advanced packaging opportunity or operation in the US?

因此，合理的問題是，ASE 是否正在考慮您在美國先進封裝的機會或業務？

Okay. Charlie would like, first, clarification on the TWD1 billion number.

好的。Charlie 想先澄清一下 10 億新台幣這個數字。

And then, if we could follow up with the current US geopolitical climate's impact on our overall business, at this time?

然後，我們是否可以跟進當前美國地緣政治氣候對我們整體業務的影響？

Yeah, so because the last time you talk about advanced packaging, total RAM is $1 billion, but now you are talking about USD1 billion additional and when you answer to Laura, you kind of talk about his combining the lineage and advanced packaging. So I kind of get very very confused.

是的，因為上次您談到先進封裝時，總 RAM 為 10 億美元，但現在您談論的是額外的 10 億美元，當您回答 Laura 的問題時，您談到了他將血統和先進封裝結合起來。所以我有點非常困惑。

We got to let them answer first. Thank you.

我們得先讓他們回答。謝謝。

In terms of the $1 billion extra revenue from leading-edge, I think. three quarters of it, three quarter of the $1 billion will be from packaging and another 25% will be coming from advanced testing. Does that answer your question on the first part?

我認為，就尖端技術帶來的 10 億美元額外收入而言。其中四分之三，即十億美元的四分之三將來自包裝，另外25%將來自先進測試。這回答了你第一部分的問題嗎？

Okay, so 25% is from advanced packaging and 35% from the lineage packaging. He said --

好的，25% 來自高級封裝，35% 來自譜系封裝。他說--

75% related to advanced packaging, 25% related to testing.

75％與先進封裝相關，25％與測試相關。

Oh, I see.

我懂了。

Of leading-edge type products.

屬於尖端類型的產品。

Oh, I see. Then there's a huge upside, right, because last year we did USD600 million and your original guidance said above USD1 billion. So the original guidelines is that there you're going to grow USD400 million revenue, but now you are growing USD1 billion revenue. Is that the right comparison compared to your --

我懂了。那麼就有巨大的上升空間，對吧，因為去年我們的營業額為 6 億美元，而你最初的指引是 10 億美元以上。因此，最初的指導方針是，你的收入將成長 4 億美元，但現在你的收入將成長 10 億美元。與您的相比，這是正確的比較嗎？--

Let me talk about the numbers again. I think in 2023 we have leading-edge revenue of around $250 million and we grew that business in 2024 to $600 million. And this year we will add another $1 billion extra revenue from this this new technology. So altogether it will be over $1.6 billion from leading-edge.

讓我再談談數字。我認為，到 2023 年，我們的領先收入將達到 2.5 億美元左右，到 2024 年，我們的業務收入將成長到 6 億美元。今年我們將利用這項新技術再增加 10 億美元的額外收入。因此總計尖端支出將超過 16 億美元。

Oh, okay. And your previous guidance above one, but you didn't say how much above the $1 billion, okay. Oh, then it's a super clear. Thank you. And can you go back to that major question? Thank you.

哦好的。您之前的預期是高於 10 億美元，但您沒有說高於 10 億美元多少，好的。哦，那就超清楚了。謝謝。您能回到那個主要問題嗎？謝謝。

Your US plan.

您的美國計劃。

I'm trying to figure out the best way to answer that question.

我正在嘗試找出回答該問題的最佳方法。

We have been working very closely with our customers, as well the partner to explore what is the most efficient as well as physical way to ramp up all sorts of packaging, including leading-edge, anywhere in the world. The current plan is ASE would like to figure out the mythology, the process, the automation, and all the yield and all of the design database in Taiwan, and this is where our resources are mostly concentrated.

我們一直與客戶和合作夥伴密切合作，探索以最有效、最實際的方式在世界任何地方提升各種包裝（包括尖端包裝）的生產能力。目前的計畫是，日月光想在台灣搞清楚這個神話、這個工藝、這個自動化、這個所有的產量和所有的設計資料庫，這也是我們的資源最集中的地方。

Before we have a full confidence, we can fully execute the ramp with reasonable results. We will not go outside of Taiwan. But once we have achieved that, we will consider how to move the personnel that we have trained by then, the equipment, the building material that we have already mastered by then into other part of the world.

在我們擁有充分信心之前，我們可以全面執行爬坡計劃並取得合理的結果。我們不會去台灣以外的地方。但一旦實現了這個目標，我們就會考慮如何把我們屆時培訓的人員、設備、已經掌握的建築材料轉移到世界其他地方。

The reason being, as we transfer some of the leading-edge -- by the way, the leading-edge are constantly evolving, every year is different. We are in this time chase against resource and technology know-how. The yield, the investment and the qualification require so much R&D resources, it simply cannot be executed for ASE in any kind of a satellite situation.

原因是，當我們轉移一些尖端技術時——順便說一句，前沿技術不斷發展，每年都不一樣。我們正處於與資源和技術訣竅追逐的時代。產量、投資和資質需要大量的研發資源，對於 ASE 來說，在任何一種衛星情況下都無法實現。

It has to be a headquarter where all of our resources are concentrated so we can constantly maneuver and change the configuration and the resource requirement and do all of the relevant experiments to know the right things to do.

它必須成為我們所有資源集中的總部，這樣我們才能不斷地調整和改變配置和資源需求，並進行所有相關的實驗，以了解正確的做法。

Until we really master that, going to overseas will not do our customer and the country that we're moving to the correct service. And that has been the agreement that I have, we have with our founding partner as well as our customers. And so the short answer is, yes, we have all of this in the plan. However, we are in good communication to all of the relevant parties about the status we're in, the value we have created and also the learning that we have acquired.

除非我們真正掌握這一點，否則走向海外並不能為我們的客戶和我們所在的國家提供正確的服務。這是我與創始合夥人以及客戶達成的協議。簡短的回答是，是的，我們已經將這一切納入計劃。然而，我們與所有相關方都保持著良好的溝通，告知了我們的現狀、我們創造的價值以及我們所獲得的知識。

And I believe the end customer like that kind of rationale because I don't think this is just a money thing. At the end of the day, it's the utilization, the cost, and for leading-edge packaging, is really about the yield. So we really have to master this, today we just simply do not have the knowledge, we do not have the resource to create a satellite situation.

我相信最終客戶會喜歡這種理由，因為我不認為這只是金錢問題。歸根結底，關鍵在於利用率和成本，而對於尖端封裝而言，關鍵在於產量。所以我們真的必須掌握這一點，今天我們根本就沒有知識，也沒有資源來創造衛星局面。

I see. Yeah, it's a very clear. Thank you.

我懂了。是的，非常清楚。謝謝。

Mr. Gokul Hariharan, I'll take them.

戈庫爾·哈里哈蘭先生，我會接受它們。

Yeah, hi, happy New Year. My first question is on test. I think you mentioned, Dr. Wu, that test will accelerate, in terms of growth this year, is that an acceleration from the 18% year-on-year growth that we saw in Q4? Is it like further acceleration? Any color you can give us on the test growth this year?

是的，你好，新年快樂。我的第一個問題是關於測試的。吳博士，我記得您提到過，就今年的成長而言，測試將會加速，這是否比我們在第四季度看到的 18% 的同比增長有所加速？是不是像是進一步加速？您能告訴我們今年的測試成長情況嗎？

Also, previously, I think you talked about reaching 25% of revenues as like a mid-term target. Could you talk a little bit about when do you have that insight for tests to reach 25% of revenues? And lastly, I think, just wanted to understand, what are the margins for testing like, are they still in the low to mid 30% levels or is there some upside given that you're doing a lot more advanced testing?

另外，我記得您之前談過將達到 25% 的收入作為中期目標。您能否稍微談談您何時意識到測試可以達到收入的 25％？最後，我想了解的是，測試的利潤率是怎樣的，它們是否仍然處於 30% 的低位到中位數水平，或者考慮到您正在進行更高級的測試，是否還有一些上升空間？

So Gokul, you're asking about our general test business in relation to how it's going to grow and then eventually the target in terms of where we want to get it to and then overall margin structures, basically, the test business as a whole.

Gokul，你問的是我們的一般測試業務，關於它將如何成長，以及最終我們想要達到的目標，以及整體利潤結構，基本上就是整個測試業務。

Yes, that's right.

是的，沒錯。

Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

是的。好的。謝謝。

I think the momentum of our test business is continuously growing, and we do have a fairly aggressive, growth plan for our test business as well, in terms of further increasing our turnkey ratio as well as trying to grab more pure testing business as well.

我認為我們的測試業務勢頭正在不斷增長，而且我們對於測試業務也有一個相當積極的增長計劃，包括進一步提高我們的交鑰匙率以及嘗試搶佔更多純測試業務。

So, in this year, as I mentioned earlier on, our investment in tests will continue to occupy a large chunk of overall CapEx, roughly over 30% of the CapEx will be spent on tests this year. And again, I think this year, our test business will outgrow our packaging business by twofold at this point.

所以，正如我之前提到的，今年我們在測試方面的投資將繼續佔據整體資本支出的很大一部分，今年大約超過 30% 的資本支出將用於測試。而且我認為，今年我們的測試業務將比包裝業務成長一倍。

Okay, does that answer your question?

好的，這回答了你的問題嗎？

Yeah, could you also talk a little bit about the gross margins? So two acts of packaging, that's quite clear. So that's definitely an acceleration compared to Q4. Could we also talk a little bit about the margins for tests? I think our previous understanding has been it's like low to mid 30% gross margins. Is that consistent or is it even higher given that you have a lot more advanced testing business right now?

是的，您能談談毛利率嗎？因此，兩種包裝行為是相當清楚的。因此與第四季度相比，這無疑有一個加速。我們還可以稍微談談一下測試的幅度嗎？我認為我們之前的理解是毛利率在 30% 到 30% 之間。考慮到您現在擁有更先進的測試業務，這個數字是否一致，甚至更高？

I think tech business, we continue to have a relatively stable margin at 35% each kind of margin that, year in year out, and we're seeing that continuing into 2025 as well.

我認為，科技業務的利潤率將保持相對穩定的水平，年復一年，每種利潤率都保持在 35% 左右，我們預計這種狀況將持續到 2025 年。

Got it. Thank you very much.

知道了。非常感謝。

My second questioning and testing revenues, I think our understanding and the market's understanding is right now that most of this is in partnership with the leading foundry, how is the business momentum for full stack, leading-edge advanced packaging and testing going? Are we starting to get more, full-stack business also, either on our own steam or in partnership with the leading boundary.

我的第二個疑問是測試收入，我認為我們的理解和市場的理解是，現在大部分都是與領先的代工廠合作，全端、尖端先進封裝和測試的業務勢頭如何？我們是否也開始獲得更多的全端業務，無論是依靠我們自己的力量還是與領先的邊界合作。

And also, I think, TSMC also talked about potentially go was being applied to some non-AI applications also. Doctor, could you talk a little bit about what are you seeing on this 2.5D, and 3D packaging for non-AI applications given right now, most of it is AI.

而且我認為，台積電也談到了 Go 可能應用於一些非人工智慧應用的可能性。博士，您能否談談您對這個2.5D和3D封裝對於非AI應用的看法，目前大部分都是AI。

So Gokul, you're asking about our leading-edge events packaging and in terms of the developments within our focus type solutions and then to a certain extent, whether there's other R&D applications related to fan out at this point.

所以 Gokul，您問的是我們的前沿活動包裝，以及我們重點解決方案的發展情況，然後在一定程度上，是否還有其他與此相關的研發應用。

Yeah, outside of AI because right now it seems like mostly AI but are you seeing this being adopted by other customers, would that be in the HPC or even in the mobile space also.

是的，在 AI 之外，因為現在看起來主要是 AI，但您是否看到其他客戶採用了它，是在 HPC 還是也在行動領域。

Okay.

好的。

Right, like all new technology, you always start with a bulldozer. And then the industry will find an anchor application or anchor customer or set of customers. I think that will, that's what we have seen. So you create a brand-new packaging technology which has been around for a few years.

沒錯，就像所有新技術一樣，總是從推土機開始。然後，業界將找到一個錨定應用程式或錨定客戶或一組客戶。我認為會的，這就是我們所看到的。所以你創造了一種已經存在幾年的全新包裝技術。

But in the last two years, it has gone through a rapid ramp up. So now become more sophisticated, more mature with a better-known yield, as well as the yield for any kind of evolution. That's what we have. After that, the other customers will start adopting the same type of methodology. So the answer to your first question, yes, we have seen other non-AI -- well, I'm not sure exactly, what is non-AI now.

但在過去兩年中，它經歷了快速成長。因此現在變得更加複雜，更加成熟，具有更廣為人知的產量，以及任何類型進化的產量。這就是我們所擁有的。此後，其他客戶也將開始採用相同類型的方法。所以對於你第一個問題的答案是，是的，我們已經看到了其他非人工智慧——嗯，我不確定現在的非人工智慧到底是什麼。

It seems like everything is AI related, but anyway, the, if you really need to differentiate there are other type of application also adopting the same type of platform, we have seen that. Now what we have seen more is in the related field, AI or AI peripheral, we will have the AC customers as well as system customer start pushing for their own vintage or their own version of the architecture. And that, incidentally, will fall into the similar type of platform.

似乎一切都與人工智慧有關，但無論如何，如果你真的需要區分，那麼其他類型的應用程式也採用相同類型的平台，我們已經看到了。現在我們更多地看到在相關領域，AI或AI外圍設備，我們將讓AC客戶以及系統客戶開始推動他們自己的復古或他們自己版本的架構。而這恰好也屬於類似類型的平台。

So, from ASE's perspective, we fight for two things. We keep a very transparent communication with our partners, our end customers or our founding customers. So we're fully aware of what we're doing across the board. So there's no confusion about who does what. After all, our joint objective is to make sure we deliver as much as we can to what the ecosystem required. Okay, first thing.

因此，從 ASE 的角度來看，我們為兩件事而奮鬥。我們與我們的合作夥伴、最終客戶或創始客戶保持非常透明的溝通。因此，我們完全清楚我們在做什麼。這樣就不會產生誰做什麼事情的困惑。畢竟，我們的共同目標是確保我們盡可能滿足生態系統的需求。好的，首先。

The second thing is, as we're going through this ramp, we will make sure we have the good yield. It doesn't matter which route that you're taking through. So this transition, I think all companies, including ASE, we spend the majority of the time trying to figure out in which direction do we ramp and how do we ramp. So it has been quite painful for everybody.

第二件事是，當我們經歷這個坡道時，我們將確保獲得良好的收益。無論您選擇哪一條路線都沒關係。因此，我認為，在這種轉變中，包括 ASE 在內的所有公司都花了大部分時間來嘗試弄清楚我們朝哪個方向發展以及如何發展。所以這對每個人來說都是相當痛苦的。

2024 will be the -- 2025 will be the first year we start seeing the effect of all of the deployment and the investment, which should be followed through by 2026 and 2027. Now, in order to ramp from '23, '24, and '25 and become bigger impact in, well, I'm not sure exactly, what is non-AI now.

2024 年－2025 年將是我們開始看到所有部署和投資效果的第一年，之後應在 2026 年和 2027 年完成。現在，為了從 23 年、24 年和 25 年起產生更大的影響，嗯，我不確定現在什麼是非人工智慧。

It seems like everything is AI related, but anyway, if you really need to differentiate the other type of application also adopting the same type of platform, we have seen that. Now what we have seen more is in the related field, AI or AI peripheral, we will have the AC customers as well as system customer start pushing for their own vintage or their own version of the architecture. And that, incidentally, will fall into the similar type of platform. So, from ASE's perspective, we abide for two things.

似乎一切都與人工智慧有關，但無論如何，如果您真的需要區分採用相同類型平台的其他類型的應用程序，我們已經看到了這一點。現在我們更多地看到在相關領域，AI或AI外圍設備，我們將讓AC客戶以及系統客戶開始推動他們自己的復古或他們自己版本的架構。而這恰好也屬於類似類型的平台。因此，從 ASE 的角度來看，我們遵守兩件事。

We keep a very transparent communication with our partners, our end customers or our founding customers. So we're fully aware of what we're doing across the board. So there's no confusion about who does what. After all, our joint objective is to make sure we deliver as much as we can to what the ecosystem required. Okay, first thing.

我們與我們的合作夥伴、最終客戶或創始客戶保持非常透明的溝通。因此，我們完全清楚我們在做什麼。這樣就不會產生誰做什麼事情的困惑。畢竟，我們的共同目標是確保我們盡可能滿足生態系統的需求。好的，首先。

The second thing is, as we're going through this ramp. We will make sure we have the good yield. It doesn't matter which route that you're taking through. So this is the process that we're going through right now, 2023 is where we started. 2024 really is a year of transition. I think, all companies, including ASE, we spend the majority of the time trying to figure out, in which direction do we ramp and how do we ramp. So it has been quite painful for everybody.

第二件事是，當我們正在經過這個坡道時。我們將確保獲得良好的收益。無論您選擇哪一條路線都沒關係。這就是我們現在正在經歷的過程，2023 年是我們的起點。 2024 年確實是過渡的一年。我認為，包括 ASE 在內的所有公司都在花費大部分的時間來嘗試弄清楚我們應該朝哪個方向發展以及如何發展。所以這對每個人來說都是相當痛苦的。

2024 will be the -- 2025 will be the 1st year we start seeing the effect of all of the deployment and the investment. Which should be followed through by 2026 and 2027.

2024 年－2025 年將是我們開始看到所有部署和投資效果的第一年。這些應該會在 2026 年和 2027 年實現。

Now, in order to ramp from '23, '24, and '25 and become bigger impact in '26 and '27, you need to have all of this coming in non-AI or other type of application to come in, and also not just the teacher chip design, the AC guys needs to come in, the system people needs to come in, and, more importantly, as the AI algorithm become more efficient, it will enable or entice a different kind of algorithm and different kind of applications.

現在，為了在 23、24、25 年實現成長，並在 26、27 年產生更大的影響，你需要將所有這些非人工智慧或其他類型的應用程式引入其中，而且不僅僅是教師晶片設計，還需要 AC 人員和系統人員的加入，更重要的是，隨著人工智慧應用程式變得更加高效，它將啟用或吸引不同類型的演算法和不同類型的應用程式變得更加高效，它將啟用或吸引不同類型的演算法和不同類型的應用程式。

So I think the AI edge devices will also be, we will have a lot of incentives, which means that there will be more hardware or integrated system level hardware that are required. And all of this will use a similar type of platform, although different configuration, different building materials.

所以我認為人工智慧邊緣設備也會如此，我們將會有許多激勵措施，這意味著將需要更多的硬體或整合系統級硬體。所有這些都將使用類似類型的平台，儘管配置不同，建築材料不同。

It's a very long answer, but the, it's a good question. Thank you.

這是一個很長的答案，但這是一個好問題。謝謝。

Thanks, Doctor Wu. Maybe one clarification on the outsourcing part from the our partnership with the foundry versus your own full-stack solutions, including FOCoS and FOCoS-Bridge, like what is the kind of mix that you're expecting over the next maybe I think this year and maybe next year in terms of your visibility?

謝謝吳醫生。也許需要澄清一下我們與代工廠合作的外包部分與您自己的全端解決方案（包括 FOCoS 和 FOCoS-Bridge）之間的區別，例如，就您的知名度而言，您預計明年（也許今年或明年）會出現什麼樣的組合？

Gokul, can we take that on the circle back a little bit later?

Gokul，我們可以稍後再回到圓圈裡嗎？

No worries.

不用擔心。

Yeah, apologies.

是的，抱歉。

Mr. Brad Lin, BoA.

美國銀行Brad Lin先生。

Hello, thank you, Benjamin, for taking my question. I have two questions. So the first one, I would like to follow up the component of the well growth of, leading-edge advanced packaging for this year. Obviously, the at least $1.6 billion kind of the revenue from this segment is clearly pretty strong upside and 75% from packaging and 25% from testing.

您好，謝謝本傑明回答我的問題。我有兩個問題。因此，首先我想跟進一下今年尖端封裝業務的良好成長情況。顯然，該部門至少 16 億美元的收入具有相當強勁的成長空間，其中 75% 來自包裝，25% 來自測試。

And then, I would like to know, was there anything changed in management's mind in terms of this revenue target for 2025 or that was simply in line with expectation versus three months or six months ago. And then if there is upside, is that coming from the packaging side or is there any significant breakthrough in the, from the testing side? Thank you.

然後，我想知道，管理階層對 2025 年的收入目標有什麼改變嗎？那麼，如果有好處，是來自包裝方面，還是在測試方面有重大突破？謝謝。

So Brad, you're looking for what changed in the meantime that we, that you perceive that the number has ramped up, right? What are the factors that changed?

那麼布拉德，你在尋找在此期間發生了什麼變化，你認為這個數字已經上升了，對嗎？改變的因素有哪些？

Yes, and then for the components in 2025, if that there is upside, then, well, aside to previous expectation, is that coming from packaging or testing.

是的，那麼對於 2025 年的元件來說，如果有上行空間，那麼，除了先前的預期之外，這是來自封裝還是測試。

Okay, we can take that. Brad wants to know about the components and then, what changed in the meantime to, within those components to, for us to come up with our $1.6 billion target.

好的，我們可以接受。布拉德想了解這些組成部分，以及在此期間這些組成部分發生了哪些變化，以便我們可以實現 16 億美元的目標。

To answer that question, I think the best way is there was no surprise. The only thing, Joseph and myself, our previous estimated our own ability to execute. The demand, I think I don't have to talk about the demand is there.

要回答這個問題，我認為最好的答案就是沒有什麼意外。唯一的是，約瑟夫和我自己，我們之前評估了我們自己的執行能力。需求，我想我不需要談論需求就在那裡。

Clearly, how do we ramp our resources, facility, equipment that the -- we don't necessarily use all of the same materials, we don't necessarily use all of the same equipment, and there has been a lot of collaboration on everybody's side, I think. As we walk through 2024, we start to gain confidence that we can execute the to our plan.

顯然，我們如何增加我們的資源、設施、設備——我們不一定使用所有相同的材料，我們不一定使用所有相同的設備，我認為，雙方都進行了大量合作。當我們邁向 2024 年時，我們開始對執行我們的計劃充滿信心。

So I think the short answer is, there was no upside or surprising news throughout the 2024, I think likewise, in 2025, while we're executing the delivery of manufacturing side, we will continue to expand based on the road map that we have committed to our end customer and to our partner.

因此，我認為簡短的回答是，整個 2024 年都沒有任何好消息或令人意外的消息，我認為同樣，在 2025 年，在我們執行製造方面的交付時，我們將繼續根據我們向最終客戶和合作夥伴承諾的路線圖進行擴展。

In terms of the assembly and the testing portion, there could be minor adjustment but largely because it was a turnkey, so we pretty much know what the ratio is. I think Joseph and I would talk about this. This is really the first time that both of both of us agree to be explicit in giving you a very special number and also the mix, because we do have sufficient confidence in delivering this at least to 2025 level, around mid-year, we'll probably give you a better collar about the 2026.

在組裝和測試部分方面，可能會有微小的調整，但主要是因為它是一個交鑰匙工程，所以我們很清楚比例是多少。我想約瑟夫和我會談論這個問題。這實際上是我們雙方第一次明確地為您提供一個非常特殊的數字及其組合，因為我們確實有足夠的信心將其至少實現到 2025 年的水平，大約在年中，我們可能會為您提供有關 2026 年的更好的領子。

I do understand that there has been concern about the whether there's a market fluctuation either up or down. But based on our visibility for hardware demand, I think we're still in the under-supply situation. So again, we're just trying to ramp up to the best of our capability in terms of the long term.

我確實知道人們擔心市場是否會上漲或下跌的波動。但根據我們對硬體需求的了解，我認為我們仍然處於供應不足的局面。所以，我們只是想在長期內盡最大努力提高我們的能力。

The capacity and there are other concerns if you put in all of this capacity, let's just say 5, 10 years down the road, can you use them? Our belief is the AI is at the early stage, we're seeing the hyperscaler at a high level. And over time, the other application, which I've answered previously, as well as the real volume is going to be in the edge.

容量以及其他問題，如​​果你投入所有這些容量，假設 5 年至 10 年後，你還能使用它們嗎？我們相信人工智慧還處於早期階段，而超大規模器正處於較高水準。隨著時間的推移，我之前回答過的其他應用程式以及實際音量將處於邊緣。

I think the kind of capacity we put it in, will be fungible and flexible in nature. We will be able to tailor for many of the application and many of the customers long term. And most importantly, I think can talk about this. I think this is the right time we need to widen the mode by making the appropriate affordable investment and trying to create the smart factory.

我認為我們投入的容量本質上是可替代和靈活的。我們將能夠為許多應用程式和許多客戶提供長期的客製化服務。最重要的是，我認為可以談論這個問題。我認為現在是我們需要透過適當的、可承受的投資來拓寬模式並嘗試創建智慧工廠的最佳時機。

And also a large number of database because the know-how on the AI and the platform at the brain level will help us tremendously in terms of credibility and also confidence to our system customer when they want to, when they're ready to create the edge devices for their edge system, which will involve many of the things that we're doing at the HPC level. Thank you.

而且還有大量的資料庫，因為人工智慧和大腦層面的平台的專業知識將在可信度方面為我們提供極大的幫助，當我們的系統客戶想要為他們的邊緣系統創建邊緣設備時，這將涉及我們在 HPC 層級所做的許多事情。謝謝。

Thank you very much. That's very clear. And then, well, may I follow up also what was the mix of the, well, testing and packaging for 2024, if I may.

非常感謝。這非常清楚。然後，好吧，如果可以的話，我還可以跟進 2024 年的測試和包裝組合是怎樣的。

Is this your second question?

這是你的第二個問題嗎？

No.

不。

Well, why don't we go on to a wider --

那麼，我們為什麼不繼續討論更廣泛的--

Okay, so, yeah, so my second question, would be on the, obviously, we are very happy to learn that this kind of advanced packaging, linear-edge advanced packaging, will be applied to many applications across GPU, and even the edge devices. And so that's the management seeing the strengthening momentum maybe in the non-GPU side or if there is any option that the management can take with the management prioritize either AI, GPU or H device and what would be the criteria, maybe profitability or margins. Thank you.

好的，是的，我的第二個問題是，顯然，我們很高興得知這種先進的封裝，線性邊緣先進的封裝，將應用於 GPU 甚至邊緣設備的許多應用程式。因此，管理層看到的增強勢頭可能是在非 GPU 方面，或者管理層可以採取任何選擇，優先考慮 AI、GPU 或 H 設備，標準是什麼，可能是盈利能力或利潤率。謝謝。

Brad, your question relates to our preference, or even what devices, potentially outside of AI, that that we are being exposed to, in terms of these leading-edge events packages, is that primarily right?

布拉德，你的問題與我們的偏好有關，或者甚至與除了人工智慧之外我們還可能接觸到哪些設備有關，就這些前沿事件包而言，這主要對嗎？

Yes, and then, it would be good to know if whether AI or GPU or the edge device, well, with this kind of the advanced packaging techno architecture, which one will do better or well providing better margin for the firm. Thank you.

是的，然後，最好知道無論是 AI 還是 GPU 還是邊緣設備，對於這種先進的封裝技術架構，哪一個會做得更好或更好地為公司提供更好的利潤。謝謝。

I could probably answer that, but I'm going to let -- I'm going to pass that along.

我可能可以回答這個問題，但我要讓──我要把這個問題傳達出去。

Well, the correct answer is we're working with all of them, which is the truth. I mean, in this space, there are limited and customers. So I will not be able to go down to the detail because whatever I said, you can immediately link that to the end customers. There aren't that many of them.

嗯，正確的答案是我們正在與他們所有人合作，這是事實。我的意思是，在這個空間裡，顧客是有限的。所以我無法深入細節，因為無論我說什麼，你都可以立即將其與最終客戶聯繫起來。他們的數量並不多。

The truth is we're working with all of them trying to develop the appropriate architecture based on their requirement, and the requirement would change, will evolve based on their based on our yield and manufacturability and cost. And we will provide you a better clarity when we believe it is the time to disclose.

事實上，我們正​​在與他們所有人合作，試圖根據他們的需求開發適當的架構，並且需求會發生變化，會根據我們的產量、可製造性和成本而發展。當我們認為需要披露時，我們會為您提供更清晰的資訊。

But right now, we won't be to give you any kind of priority or who's taking what status. I only lump all of the leading-edge and there's one confusion I would like to clarify a little bit. The ASE versions of leading-edge is a is a very leading-edge defined by our foundry customers, which is why 250 ramped up to 600, went up to 1.6 billion.

但現在，我們不會給您任何優先權，也不會給您任何地位。我只是把所有的前沿技術集中起來，但有一個令人困惑的地方我想稍微澄清一下。ASE 版本的尖端技術是由我們的代工客戶定義的非常前沿的技術，這就是為什麼 250 增加到 600，增加到 16 億的原因。

The other advanced packaging, for example, a 7 nanometer is also advanced, but we do not count that as the leading-edge such that we can give you better clarity, a little bit more specific, right. But there are other opportunities, 7 nanometer, the 14 nanometer, they're also use pretty leading-edge of the pretty advanced packaging. It's a little bit confusing there, but I just want to make sure you understand what we're referring to for the 1.6 billion. Thank you.

其他先進封裝，例如 7 奈米，也很先進，但我們不將其視為前沿技術，這樣我們就可以給您更清晰、更具體的信息，對吧。但還有其他機會，7奈米、14奈米，它們也使用相當前沿的相當先進的封裝。這有點令人困惑，但我只是想確保你明白我們指的 16 億是什麼意思。謝謝。

Thank you. Yes, I do. Thank you very much.

謝謝。是的，我願意。非常感謝。

Mr. Jason Tsang, CL Securities.

志強證券有限公司 Jason Tsang 先生。

Thank you for taking my question. May I follow up the Laura's question in terms of the whitelist, because we hear some rumors suggest that ASE's production line in China cannot support the client who are not in the whitelist. So, wondering if you can give us more details, is your whole group can all support. The clients or Chinese production I cannot support, or if you can give us more details. Thank you.

感謝您回答我的問題。我可以跟進 Laura 關於白名單的問題嗎，因為我們聽到一些傳言說 ASE 在中國的生產線無法支持不在白名單中的客戶。所以，想知道您是否可以向我們提供更多詳細信息，您的整個團隊是否都可以支持。我無法支援客戶或中國生產，或您能否向我們提供更多詳細資訊。謝謝。

So, Jason, your question relates to the US BIS specifications in terms of our ability to work with the whitelist or be on the whitelist. Is that correct?

所以，傑森，你的問題與美國 BIS 規範有關，涉及我們與白名單合作或列入白名單的能力。那正確嗎？

That means your production line in China can also support the clients who are not in the wireless. Is that okay, or only non-China production line?

這意味著您在中國的生產線也可以支援未使用無線網路的客戶。這樣可以嗎，還是只能是非中國生產線？

Okay, Jason would like to know more about our capabilities to support whitelists and non-whitelist customers, within our China facilities.

好的，Jason 想進一步了解我們在中國工廠內支援白名單和非白名單客戶的能力。

Yeah, thank you.

是的，謝謝。

Well, we want to be careful here because I don't want to give you any information that is not pertinent, that does not stick to the BIS requirement. Right now, we're in the process of clarifying, for example, our factory located inside of China. Which set of customers can we serve? Until this is clarified, we will not give you any kind of official statement.

嗯，我們在這裡要小心，因為我不想給你任何不相關的、不符合 BIS 要求的資訊。目前，我們正在澄清一些問題，例如，我們的工廠位於中國境內。我們可以服務哪些客戶？在此事澄清之前，我們不會向您提供任何形式的官方聲明。

We are in the process of working with our founder partner, as well as with the authority on the precise requirement pertinent to that question. But what I can tell you is, in case our China facility cannot support any customer per se, then we will explore the maximum probability of supporting that customer in Taiwan. And we're confident we will be able to come up with enough capacity in due time to support that.

我們正在與創始合夥人以及權威機構就該問題的具體要求進行合作。但我可以告訴你的是，如果我們在中國大陸的工廠無法為任何客戶提供支持，那麼我們將盡可能在台灣為該客戶提供支持。我們有信心，我們將能夠及時提供足夠的能力來支持這一點。

For other customers that would like to move to Taiwan, we are in the process of defining the required capacity, the investment, while we're ramping up all the other leading-edge. However, ramping up other advanced capacity will be an easier task because ASE factories in Taiwan are all highly automated.

對於其他想要轉移到台灣的客戶，我們正在確定所需的產能和投資，同時我們正在增加所有其他尖端技術的研發。不過，由於日月光在台灣的工廠都已高度自動化，因此提高其他先進產能將會變得更加容易。

So we don't believe that challenge is too daunting for us. However, we cannot give you a definitive answer because we do not have a definitive clarity yet at this point. Maybe towards the 2nd quarter, we have a better clarity and we'll be able to give you the right answer without misleading you. Thank you.

因此我們認為這個挑戰對我們來說並不太艱鉅。然而，我們無法給你一個明確的答案，因為目前我們還沒有得到明確的答案。也許到了第二季度，我們會有更清楚的認識，能夠給你正確的答案，而不會誤導你。謝謝。

Thank you, that's helpful. My second question is in terms of your outlook for your different kind of applications. So could you please give us some colors in terms of your growth momentum, in terms of communication, computing, consumer, or industrial, etc. And which kind of growth momentum did you expect for this year? Probably spam migrations or new market shares or in demands improvement. Thank you very much.

謝謝，這很有幫助。我的第二個問題是關於您對不同類型的應用的展望。那麼，您能否從通訊、運算、消費者或工業等方面介紹一下你們的成長動能？可能是垃圾郵件遷移或新的市場佔有率或需求改進。非常感謝。

Jason, you're looking for clarification or more color on the various growth opportunities available to us, is that correct?

傑森，你想了解我們面臨的各種成長機會，對嗎？

Yeah, in different kinds of applications for this year.

是的，今年有不同類型的應用。

If we could answer what the growth is via the various applications that we are seeing, or what we're expecting.

如果我們能夠回答透過我們看到的各種應用程式實現的成長是什麼，或者我們期望是什麼。

Well, I think it's logical to assume that, in the coming quarters, I think HPC or computing, we have will show the strongest momentum. In terms of the general market, we're seeing communication, is, recovering, better than other sectors. I think, except every everything else, but maybe automotive is in the recovery mode and we're seeing business in these areas, will start to come back in 2025.

嗯，我認為可以合理地假設，在接下來的幾個季度，我們的 HPC 或計算將顯示出最強勁的發展勢頭。就整個市場而言，我們看到通訊產業的復甦情況優於其他產業。我認為，除了其他一切之外，汽車產業也許正處於復甦模式，我們看到這些領域的業務將在 2025 年開始復甦。

Automotive would take a little while before, and I think the most recent, consensus is that. It would be maybe third quarter this year, when we start to see automotive coming back to a more stable level. So I think in terms of the revenue components, I think it's logical to assume that computing will continue to occupy what percentage of our revenue going for in the coming quarters.

汽車產業還需要一段時間，我認為最近的共識是這樣的。也許到今年第三季度，我們就會開始看到汽車產業恢復到更穩定的水平。因此，我認為就收入組成部分而言，可以合理地假設計算業務在未來幾季將繼續佔據我們收入的一定比例。

Thank you. I have no more question.

謝謝。我沒有其他問題了。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Ken, have any other questions from analysts?

Ken，還有其他分析師提出的問題嗎？

Yes, we actually have a question that was sent over from us from Sunny Lin of UBS. I think she may be having some problems with her internet.

是的，我們實際上有一個問題，是瑞銀的 Sunny Lin 發給我們的。我認為她的網絡可能遇到了一些問題。

She asks, regarding our collaboration with foundry on advanced packaging, would we be able to do more with them? And in particular, whether the unsubstrate component is the main business that that we're seeking with them.

她問道，關於我們與代工廠在先進封裝方面的合作，我們能否與他們進行更多合作？特別是非基板組件是否是我們與他們尋求的主要業務。

I think the right way to answer that question is I think I found your partner is open to all suggestion and feasibility. And then the requirement is can we fulfill the capacity with an acceptable yield and ramp up quality. and then there is a step-by-step process with the strong support from our founding partner to guide us together with our partner and customer and trying to achieve that. And I think we're trying to execute to that target, to that objective.

我認為回答這個問題的正確方式是，我認為我發現你的合作夥伴對所有建議和可行性都持開放態度。然後的要求是我們能否以可接受的產量滿足產能並提高品質。然後在我們創始合夥人的大力支持下，我們一步步地與我們的合作夥伴和客戶一起努力實現這一目標。我認為我們正在努力實現這個目標、這個目的。

In terms can we expand, the current portfolio into something else. I don't think our foundry partner is objecting to it. I think everything is possible, but at this point in time, we would like to hold that comment until we have better clarity. Okay.

我們是否可以將目前的投資組合擴展到其他領域？我認為我們的代工合作夥伴不會反對這一點。我認為一切皆有可能，但目前，我們想保留該評論，直到我們有更清晰的認識為止。好的。

And then, her second question here relates to our investment in leading-edge advanced packaging, whether it is, whether it's highly concentrated in terms of ultimate device or whether we view that this type of investment is widely usable or fungible going forward.

然後，她的第二個問題涉及我們對尖端先進封裝的投資，它是否高度集中在最終設備方面，或者我們是否認為這種類型的投資在未來具有廣泛的用途或可替代性。

I thought I just answered that question.

我以為我剛剛回答了這個問題。

Yes, kind of. Okay. Do we have another question?

是的，有點。好的。我們還有其他問題嗎？

Mr. Gokul Hariharan.

戈庫爾·哈里哈蘭先生。

Oh hi, thanks for taking my follow up. So, just belaboring this point on the leading-edge advanced packaging and testing, your, foundry partner has talked about, AI revenues for them growing, mid-40% over the next five years. And when I look at ASE's leading-edge advanced packaging exposure, it also keeps track with the leading boundaries.

哦，嗨，謝謝您關注我的後續問題。因此，只要詳細闡述尖端封裝和測試這一點，您的代工合作夥伴就會談到，未來五年他們的 AI 收入將增長 40% 左右。當我觀察 ASE 領先的先進封裝曝光時，它也與領先的邊界保持同步。

AI revenues with pretty much like a one-year lag, so is that kind of like the growth rate that we could expect for, your business also given your very tight partnership with this foundry partner? Like should we expect that you should also be able to grow this revenues at like 40%, 45% CAGR over the next four or five years? Is that how you're planning about the CapEx spend?

人工智慧收入基本上落後了一年，那麼這是否是我們可以預期的成長率，考慮到您與這家代工合作夥伴的緊密合作關係，您的業務是否也能達到這樣的成長率？例如，我們是否應該預期，在未來四、五年內，您的收入能夠以 40%、45% 的複合年增長率成長？這就是您對資本支出的計劃嗎？

So Gokul, you're asking regarding whether our leading-edge advance packaging tracks with -- or how that tracks with foundry HPC growth right?

那麼 Gokul，您問的是我們的尖端封裝技術是否與代工廠 HPC 成長同步，或是如何與代工廠 HPC 成長同步，對嗎？

Foundry AI growth. Exactly because they have given up 40% to 45% target for the next five years.

代工廠 AI 的成長。正是因為他們放棄了未來5年40%至45%的目標。

We would like to take this one year at a time. I think there's a leading indicator if you look at the announcement on CapEx on machinery. That normally will give you a very good indicator. Are we on the right track or not? If we're not on the right track. We will try to reduce the spending, because we know our trajectory is not heading in the right direction.

我們希望一年一年地實現這一目標。我認為，如果你看一下機械資本支出公告，你會發現一個領先指標。這通常會給你一個很好的指標。我們走的路是否正確？如果我們沒有走在正確的軌道上。我們將盡力減少開支，因為我們知道我們的發展軌跡並沒有朝著正確的方向發展。

So at this point in time, we would like to take a more conservative approach. Let's just take one year at a time. I think 2024, we deliver, we execute it. 2025 is the first year we're trying to give a preposition. We give you a target for the full year, which we have never done that. I think we would like to wait at least to the second quarter, the third quarter before we give you the '26 and '27 projection. Thank you.

因此，目前我們想採取更保守的方法。讓我們一次回顧一年。我認為到 2024 年，我們會實現它，執行它。 2025 年是我們嘗試給予介詞的第一年。我們給你一個全年目標，我們從來沒有這樣做過。我認為我們至少要等到第二季或第三季才能給您 26 年和 27 年的預測。謝謝。

Got it. And on this CapEx, could we talk a little bit about what is your payback or like how do you think about that CapEx and the ROI or ROC attached to it? Maybe Joseph, how do you think about that CapEx and like, are we, do we have a return a number attached to it that we can share, and in terms of what kind of timeline that you're looking at.

知道了。關於這筆資本支出，我們能否談談您的回報是多少，或者您如何看待這筆資本支出以及與之相關的投資回報率 (ROI) 或投資回報率 (ROC)？也許約瑟夫，您如何看待資本支出，以及我們是否有可以分享的附加回報數字，以及您正在查看什麼樣的時間表。

So you're looking for a general philosophy in terms of how we look at our CapEx.

因此，您正在尋找有關我們如何看待資本支出的一般概念。

Exactly because this year I think the total CapEx seems like it's going to be like north of $4 billion or so, right, including facility and missionary.

正是因為今年我認為總資本支出似乎將達到 40 億美元左右，包括設施和傳教士。

I think we're not yet at the steady state of these new investments. So I think it's a little bit premature to pinpoint exactly what kind of return or what kind of, capital intensity that's required for the business. So we would like to, reserve that until later. Maybe in the second half, we will have, more accurate numbers to address this issue. But what I can say is right by the by the business that we are, we're running today, I think the leading-edge is margin of creative business for us.

我認為這些新投資尚未達到穩定狀態。因此我認為現在準確指出業務需要何種回報或何種資本密集度還為時過早。因此，我們想將其保留到以後。也許到下半年，我們會有更精確的數字來解決這個問題。但我可以說的是，就我們今天經營的業務而言，我認為領先的優勢在於創意業務的利潤。

Got it. Understood. That's very clear. Yeah.

知道了。明白了。這非常清楚。是的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

There are no other questions from the floor.

大家沒有其他問題了。

If there are no other questions, I think we can end it right here. We're getting close to about 1.5 hours. Thank you for attending our full-year earnings release. We will see you next quarter.

如果沒有其他問題的話，我想我們可以就此結束。我們已經快 1.5 小時了。感謝您參加我們的全年收益發布會。我們將在下個季度與您見面。

Thank you.

謝謝。