台積電 ADR (TSM) 2021 Q2 法說會逐字稿

(foreign language) Good afternoon, everyone.

（外語）大家下午好。

Welcome to TSMC's Second Quarter 2021 Earnings Conference Call.

歡迎參加台積電 2021 年第二季財報電話會議。

This is Jeff Su, TSMC's Director of Investor Relations and your host for today.

我是台積電投資者關係總監 Jeff Su，也是今天的主持人。

To prevent the spread of COVID-19, TSMC is hosting our earnings conference call via live audio webcast through the company's website at www.tsmc.com where you can also download the earnings release materials.

為了防止 COVID-19 的傳播，台積電將透過公司網站 www.tsmc.com 透過現場音訊網路直播舉辦我們的財報電話會議，您也可以在該網站下載財報發布資料。

If you are joining us through the conference call, your dial-in lines are in listen-only mode.

如果您透過電話會議加入我們，您的撥入線路將處於僅監聽模式。

The format for today's event will be as follows: first, TSMC's Vice President and CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, will summarize our operations in the second quarter 2021, followed by our guidance for the third quarter 2021.

今天活動的形式如下：首先，台積電副總裁兼財務長黃文德爾先生將總結我們2021年第二季的營運情況，然後是我們對2021年第三季的指導。

Afterwards, TSMC's CEO, Dr. C.C. Wei; Mr. Huang; and TSMC's Chairman, Dr. Mark Liu, will jointly provide the company's key messages.

隨後，台積電執行長 C.C.偉;黃先生；台積電董事長劉馬克博士將共同發表公司的關鍵資訊。

Then we will open the line for Q&A.

然後我們將開通問答熱線。

As usual, I would like to remind everybody that today's discussions may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to significant risks and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to differ materially from those contained in the forward-looking statements.

像往常一樣，我想提醒大家，今天的討論可能包含前瞻性陳述，這些陳述存在重大風險和不確定性，這可能導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述中包含的結果有重大差異。

Please refer to the safe harbor notice that appears in our press release.

請參閱我們新聞稿中的安全港通知。

And now I would like to turn the call over to TSMC's CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, for the summary of operations and the current quarter guidance.

現在我想將電話轉給台積電首席財務官黃文德爾先生，以獲取營運摘要和當前季度指導。

Thank you, Jeff.

謝謝你，傑夫。

Second quarter revenue increased 2.7% sequentially in NT dollar terms or 2.9% in U.S. dollar term.

第二季營收以新台幣計算季增 2.7%，以美元計算較上季成長 2.9%。

Our second quarter business was supported by continued strength in HPC and automotive-related demand.

我們第二季的業務得到了 HPC 和汽車相關需求持續強勁的支撐。

Gross margin decreased 2.4 percentage points sequentially to 50% mainly due to N5 dilution, the slower rate of cost improvement and the absence of positive inventory revaluation.

毛利率環比下降 2.4 個百分點至 50%，主要是由於 N5 稀釋、成本改善速度較慢以及沒有積極的庫存重估。

Total operating expenses slightly increased TWD 1.47 billion.

總營業費用微增新台幣14.7億元。

Therefore, operating margins decreased 2.4 percentage points sequentially to 39.1%.

因此，營業利益率季減 2.4 個百分點至 39.1%。

Overall, our second quarter EPS was TWD 5.18 and ROE was 27.3%.

整體而言，我們第二季 EPS 為新台幣 5.18，ROE 為 27.3%。

Let's move on to revenue by technology.

讓我們繼續討論技術收入。

5-nanometer process technology contributed 18% of wafer revenue in the second quarter, while 7-nanometer accounted for 31%.

5奈米製程技術貢獻了第二季晶圓收入的18%，而7奈米製程技術則佔31%。

Advanced technologies, which are defined as 7-nanometer and below, accounted for 49% of wafer revenue.

7 奈米及以下的先進技術佔晶圓收入的 49%。

Moving on to revenue contribution by platform.

接下來是平台的營收貢獻。

Smartphone decreased 3% quarter-over-quarter to account for 42% of our second quarter revenue.

智慧型手機占我們第二季營收的 42%，季減 3%。

HPC increased 12% to account for 39%.

HPC 成長了 12%，達到 39%。

IoT decreased 2% to account for 8%.

IoT 下降 2%，佔 8%。

Automotive increased 12% to account for 4%.

汽車產業成長了 12%，達到 4%。

And DCE decreased 12% to account for 4%.

大商所佔比下降 12%至 4%。

Moving on to the balance sheet.

繼續看資產負債表。

We ended the second quarter with cash and marketable securities of TWD 871 billion.

第二季結束時，我們的現金和有價證券為新台幣 8,710 億。

On the liability side, current liabilities decreased TWD 14 billion mainly due to the decrease of TWD 23 billion in accrued liabilities and others, partially offset by the increase of TWD 6 billion in dividend payable.

負債方面，流動負債減少140億元新台幣，主要是由於應計負債及其他減少230億元新台幣，但被應付股息增加60億元新台幣部分抵銷。

Long-term interest-bearing debt increased by TWD 134 billion mainly as we raised TWD 137 billion of corporate bonds during the quarter.

長期有息債務增加1,340億新台幣，主要是因為本季籌集了1,370億新台幣的公司債。

On financial ratios.

關於財務比率。

Accounts receivables turnover days increased 2 days to 42 days, while days of inventory also rose 2 days to 85 days primarily due to N5 wafer prebuild.

應收帳款週轉天數增加了 2 天，達到 42 天，庫存天數也增加了 2 天，達到 85 天，這主要是由於 N5 晶圓預製。

Now let me make a few comments on cash flow and CapEx.

現在讓我對現金流和資本支出發表一些評論。

During the second quarter, we generated about TWD 187 billion in cash from operations, spent TWD 167 billion in CapEx and distributed TWD 65 billion for third quarter of 2020 cash dividend.

第二季度，我們從營運中產生了約 1,870 億新台幣的現金，資本支出為 1,670 億新台幣，並派發 2020 年第三季現金股息 650 億新台幣。

Short-term loans increased TWD 4 billion, while bonds payable increased by TWD 137 billion.

短期貸款增加40億新台幣，應付債券增加1,370億新台幣。

Overall, our cash balance increased TWD 83 billion to TWD 748 billion at the end of the quarter.

總體而言，本季末我們的現金餘額增加了 830 億新台幣，達到 7,480 億新台幣。

In U.S. dollar terms, our second quarter capital expenditures totaled USD 5.97 billion.

以美元計算，我們第二季的資本支出總計 59.7 億美元。

I have finished my financial summary.

我已經完成了財務摘要。

Now let's turn to our third quarter guidance.

現在讓我們轉向第三季的指引。

Based on the current business outlook, we expect our third quarter revenue to be between USD 14.6 billion and USD 14.9 billion, which represents an 11% sequential increase at the midpoint.

根據目前的業務前景，我們預計第三季營收將在 146 億美元至 149 億美元之間，環比中位數成長 11%。

Based on the exchange rate assumption of USD 1 to TWD 27.9, gross margin is expected to be between 49.5% and 51.5%, operating margin between 38.5% and 40.5%.

基於1美元兌27.9新台幣的匯率假設，預估毛利率在49.5%至51.5%之間，營業利潤率在38.5%至40.5%之間。

This concludes my financial presentation.

我的財務報告到此結束。

I will turn the microphone over to our CEO, C.C.

我將把麥克風交給我們的執行長 C.C.

Thank you, Wendell.

謝謝你，溫德爾。

We hope everybody is staying safe and healthy during this time.

我們希望每個人在這段時間都保持安全和健康。

First, let me start with TSMC's long-term growth outlook and investment plan.

首先，我先介紹台積電的長期成長展望與投資計畫。

We are witnessing a structural increase in underlying semiconductor demand as the multiyear megatrend of 5G- and HPC-related applications are expected to fuel massive increase in computation power and greater need for energy-efficient computing, which will require leading-edge technologies.

我們正在見證基礎半導體需求的結構性成長，因為 5G 和 HPC 相關應用的多年大趨勢預計將推動運算能力的大幅成長以及對節能運算的更大需求，而這將需要領先的技術。

COVID-19 has also fundamentally accelerated the digital transformation, making semiconductors more pervasive and essential in people's lives.

COVID-19 也從根本上加速了數位轉型，使半導體在人們的生活中更加普遍和重要。

With our technology leadership, manufacturing excellence and customer trust, we are well positioned to capture the structural growth from the favorable industry megatrend with our differentiated technologies.

憑藉我們的技術領先地位、卓越的製造能力和客戶的信任，我們有能力利用我們的差異化技術從有利的行業大趨勢中捕捉結構性成長。

We now expect our long-term revenue CAGR from 2020 to 2025 to be near the high end of our 10% to 15% CAGR range in U.S. dollar terms.

我們現在預計 2020 年至 2025 年的長期收入複合年增長率將接近以美元計算的 10% 至 15% 複合年增長率範圍的高端。

In the near term, we continue to observe both short-term imbalances in the supply chain driven by the need to ensure supply security, as well as a structural increase in long-term demand.

短期來看，我們持續觀察到供應鏈因保障供應安全而出現的短期失衡，以及長期需求的結構性成長。

While the short-term imbalance may or may not persist, we expect our capacity to remain tight throughout the year and into 2022 fueled by strong demand for our industry-leading advanced and special technologies.

儘管短期不平衡可能會持續，也可能不會持續，但我們預計，由於對行業領先的先進和特殊技術的強勁需求，我們的產能全年和 2022 年將保持緊張。

For the full year of 2021, we now forecast the overall semiconductor market excluding memory to grow about 17% while foundry industry growth is forecast to be about 20%.

對於 2021 年全年，我們現在預測不包括記憶體的整個半導體市場將成長約 17%，而代工產業的成長預計約為 20%。

We now expect -- for TSMC, we are confident we can outperform the foundry revenue growth and grow above 20% in 2021 in U.S. dollar terms.

我們現在預計，對於台積電來說，我們有信心能夠跑贏代工收入成長，並在 2021 年以美元計算成長超過 20%。

To address the structural increase in long-term market demand profile, TSMC is working closely with our customer to plan our capacity and investing in leading-edge and specialty technologies to support their demand.

為了滿足長期市場需求的結構性成長，台積電正在與客戶密切合作，規劃我們的產能，並投資領先的專業技術來支援他們的需求。

Our capital investment decisions are based on 4 disciplines, that is: technology leadership, flexible and responsive manufacturing, retaining customers' trust and earning the proper return.

我們的資本投資決策基於四個原則，分別是：技術領先、靈活回應的製造、保留客戶的信任並獲得適當的回報。

To ensure a proper return from the investment, both pricing and costs are important.

為了確保從投資中獲得適當的回報，定價和成本都很重要。

TSMC's pricing strategy is strategic, not opportunistic.

台積電的定價策略是策略性的，而不是機會主義的。

At the same time, we face manufacturing cost challenges due to increasing process complexity at leading node, new investment in mature nodes, expansion of our global manufacturing footprint and rising materials and basic commodities cost.

同時，由於領先節點的製程複雜性不斷增加、對成熟節點的新投資、全球製造足跡的擴大以及材料和基本商品成本的上升，我們面臨製造成本的挑戰。

Therefore, we are firming up our wafer pricing.

因此，我們正在提高晶圓定價。

We will continue to work closely with our customers to provide our value.

我們將繼續與客戶密切合作，提供我們的價值。

We will also continue to work diligently with our suppliers to deliver on cost improvement.

我們也將繼續與供應商努力合作，以實現成本改善。

By taking such actions, we believe we can continue to earn proper returns that enable us to invest to support our customers' growth and deliver long-term profitable growth for our shareholders.

透過這些行動，我們相信我們可以繼續獲得適當的回報，使我們能夠進行投資以支持客戶的成長，並為股東帶來長期的獲利成長。

Next, let me talk about automotive supply update.

接下來我來說說汽車供應更新。

TSMC has actively taken steps throughout the first half of this year, and we will continue to do so in the second half to address the chip supply challenges for our automotive customers.

台積電今年上半年積極採取行動，下半年我們將繼續採取行動，解決汽車客戶的晶片供應挑戰。

The automotive supply chain is long and complex with its own inventory management practices.

汽車供應鏈漫長而複雜，有自己的庫存管理實務。

From chip production to car production, it takes at least 6 months to reach the automotive OEMs with several tiers of suppliers in between.

從晶片生產到汽車生產，到達汽車整車廠至少需要6個月的時間，中間還需要幾個供應商。

However, we have worked dynamically with other customers to reallocate our wafer capacity to support the worldwide automotive industry.

然而，我們一直與其他客戶積極合作，重新分配我們的晶圓產能，以支持全球汽車產業。

In first half of this year, we successfully increased our output for MCUs, one of the key components in automotive semiconductor products, by about 30% as compared to first half 2020.

今年上半年，我們成功將汽車半導體產品關鍵零件之一的MCU產量比2020年上半年成長了約30%。

For the full year, we expect to increase output for MCUs by close to 60% over the 2020 level which also represents about a 30% increase over the 2018 pre-pandemic level.

就全年而言，我們預計 MCU 的產量將比 2020 年的水準增加近 60%，這也比 2018 年大流行前的水準增加約 30%。

By taking such actions, we expect the automotive component shortage from semiconductor to be greatly reduced for TSMC customers starting this quarter.

透過這些行動，我們預計從本季開始，台積電客戶的半導體汽車零件短缺問題將大大減少。

Now let me talk about the N5 and N4 progress.

現在我來說一下N5和N4的進展。

TSMC's N5 is the foundry industry's most advanced solution with the best PPA.

台積電的 N5 是代工產業最先進的解決方案，具有最佳的 PPA。

N5 is already in its second year of volume production with yields well on track.

N5 已進入量產第二年，產量已邁入正軌。

N5 demand continued to be strong, driven by smartphone and HPC applications and we expect N5 to contribute around 20% of our wafer revenue in 2021.

在智慧型手機和 HPC 應用的推動下，N5 需求持續強勁，我們預計 2021 年 N5 將貢獻我們晶圓收入的 20% 左右。

To further enhance our 5-nanometer family's performance, power and density improvements for the next wave 5-nanometer products, we introduced N4 technology, which is a straightforward migration from N5 with comparable design rules.

為了進一步增強我們 5 奈米系列的下一代 5 奈米產品的性能、功率和密度改進，我們引入了 N4 技術，該技術是從具有類似設計規則的 N5 的直接遷移。

N4 risk production will begin this quarter and volume production in 2022.

N4 風險生產將於本季開始，並於 2022 年實現量產。

Thus, we expect demand for our N5 family to continue to grow in the next several years, driven by the robust demand for smartphone and HPC applications.

因此，在智慧型手機和 HPC 應用程式強勁需求的推動下，我們預計未來幾年對 N5 系列的需求將持續成長。

Finally, I will talk about the N3 status.

最後說一下N3狀態。

N3 will be another full scaling from our N5 and will use FinFET transistor structure to deliver the best technology maturity, performance and cost for our customers.

N3 將是我們 N5 的另一個全面擴展，並將使用 FinFET 電晶體結構，為我們的客戶提供最佳的技術成熟度、性能和成本。

Our N3 technology development is on track with good progress.

我們的 N3 技術開發正步入正軌並取得良好進展。

We have developed a complete platform support for both HPC and smartphone applications of N3.

我們為 N3 的 HPC 和智慧型手機應用程式開發了完整的平台支援。

We continue to see a high level of customer engagements at N3 and expect more new tape-outs for N3 for the first year as compared with N5.

我們繼續看到 N3 的客戶參與度很高，並預計與 N5 相比，N3 第一年會有更多新的流片。

Risk production is scheduled in 2021, and production will start in second half of 2022.

計劃於2021年進行風險生產，並於2022年下半年開始生產。

Our 3-nanometer technology will be the most advanced foundry technology in both PPA and transistor technology when it is introduced.

我們的3奈米技術一旦推出，將成為PPA和電晶體技術中最先進的代工技術。

With our technology leadership and strong customer demand, we are confident that both N5 and N3 will be large and long-lasting nodes for TSMC and become an important driver of our long-term growth.

憑藉我們的技術領先地位和強大的客戶需求，我們有信心N5和N3都將成為台積電大規模且持久的節點，並成為我們長期成長的重要驅動力。

Now let me turn over the microphone to Wendell.

現在讓我把麥克風交給溫德爾。

Thank you, C.C. Let me start by making some comments on our near-term demand and inventory.

謝謝你，C.C.首先讓我對我們的近期需求和庫存發表一些評論。

We concluded our second quarter with revenue of TWD 372.1 billion or USD 13.3 billion, slightly above our guidance mainly due to better demand from HPC, IoT and automotive-related applications than our forecast 3 months ago.

我們第二季的營收為 3,721 億新台幣（133 億美元），略高於我們的指引，主要是由於 HPC、物聯網和汽車相關應用的需求優於我們 3 個月前的預測。

Moving into third quarter 2021.

進入 2021 年第三季。

We expect our business to be supported by strong demand for our industry-leading 5-nanometer and 7-nanometer technologies driven by all 4 growth platforms, which are smartphone, HPC, IoT and automotive-related applications.

我們預計，我們的業務將得到對業界領先的 5 奈米和 7 奈米技術的強勁需求的支持，而這些需求是由智慧型手機、HPC、物聯網和汽車相關應用這 4 個成長平台推動的。

On the inventory side, we expect our fabless customers' overall inventory to exit second quarter of '21 at a healthy level.

在庫存方面，我們預計無晶圓廠客戶的整體庫存將在 21 年第二季保持在健康水準。

We expect our customers and the supply chain to gradually prepare higher levels of inventory in the second half of the year as compared to the historical seasonal level, given the industry's continued need to ensure supply security following supply chain disruptions due to COVID-19 and uncertainties brought about by geopolitical tensions.

鑑於該行業在因 COVID-19 和不確定性導致供應鏈中斷後仍需要確保供應安全，我們預計我們的客戶和供應鏈將在下半年逐步準備比歷史季節性水平更高的庫存水平地緣政治緊張局勢帶來的。

Next, let me talk about our profitability.

接下來我來談談我們的獲利能力。

Our second quarter gross margin of 50% was slightly below the midpoint of our guidance, mainly due to an unfavorable foreign exchange rate.

我們第二季的毛利率為 50%，略低於我們指引的中點，這主要是由於不利的匯率。

Our gross margin guidance provided 3 months ago was based on exchange rate assumption of USD 1 to TWD 28.4, whereas the actual second quarter exchange rate was USD 1 to TWD 28.01.

我們3個月前提供的毛利率指引是基於1美元兌28.4新台幣的匯率假設，而第二季的實際匯率是1美元兌28.01新台幣。

This created about 0.5 percentage point difference in our actual second quarter gross margin versus our original guidance.

這導致我們第二季的實際毛利率與我們最初的指導價值有約 0.5 個百分點的差異。

In other words, if the exchange rate had maintained at $1 to TWD 28.4, our second quarter gross margin would have been 50.5%.

換句話說，如果匯率維持在1美元兌28.4新台幣，我們第二季的毛利率將為50.5%。

Based on the exchange rate assumption of USD 1 to TWD 27.9, we have just guided third quarter 2021 gross margin to increase by 0.5 percentage point sequentially to 50.5% at the midpoint, mainly due to better back-end profitability.

基於1美元兌27.9新台幣的匯率假設，我們剛剛指引2021年第三季毛利率較上季成長0.5個百分點至中點50.5%，主要是因為後端獲利能力較好。

Despite the rapidly rising depreciation costs and unfavorable foreign exchange rate, we are able to maintain our gross margin at above 50% in both second quarter and third quarter.

儘管折舊成本快速上升，匯率不利，我們第二季和第三季的毛利率仍維持在50%以上。

Although a higher level of capital intensity is necessary in the near term as we are accelerating our investment pace in anticipation of the strong growth that will follow, we expect to continue to earn a similar level of long-term return.

儘管由於我們預計接下來的強勁成長而加快了投資步伐，因此短期內需要更高水準的資本密集度，但我們預計將繼續獲得類似水準的長期回報。

Our long-term financial objectives remain unchanged.

我們的長期財務目標維持不變。

We reiterate the long-term gross margin of above 50% is achievable with operating margin to be above 39% and ROE to be above 20% through the cycle.

我們重申，整個週期內，長期毛利率可以達到50%以上，營業利益率可以達到39%以上，ROE可以達到20%以上。

Now let me make some comments on our cash dividend distribution policy.

下面我就我們的現金分紅政策說一下。

TSMC remains committed to sustainable cash dividends on both an annual and quarterly basis.

台積電仍致力於每年和季度的可持續現金股利。

In June, TSMC's Board of Directors approved the distribution of a TWD 2.75 per share cash dividend for the first quarter of 2021, which will be distributed in October 2021.

6月，台積電董事會批准派發2021年第一季每股2.75元新台幣現金股息，將於2021年10月發放。

Therefore, TSMC shareholders will receive a total of TWD 10.25 cash dividend per share in 2021.

因此，台積電股東2021年每股現金股利合計為新台幣10.25元。

That also means shareholders will receive at least TWD 11 per share cash dividend for 2022 and the quarterly cash dividend is expected to be at least TWD 2.75 per share.

這也意味著2022年股東將獲得每股至少11新台幣的現金股息，預計季度現金股息至少為每股2.75新台幣。

Now let me turn the microphone over to our Chairman, Mark.

現在讓我把麥克風交給我們的主席馬克。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you, Wendell, and good afternoon, everyone.

謝謝你，溫德爾，大家下午好。

Today, I will talk about TSMC's global manufacturing footprint.

今天要講的是台積電的全球製造足跡。

TSMC's mission is to be the trusted technology and capacity provider for the global logic IC industry for years to come.

台積電的使命是在未來幾年成為全球邏輯 IC 產業值得信賴的技術和產能提供者。

TSMC always treat our customers as partners.

台積電始終將客戶視為合作夥伴。

We do not compete with our customers.

我們不與我們的客戶競爭。

We grow our business by unleashing our customers' innovations and enabling their success.

我們透過釋放客戶的創新並幫助他們取得成功來發展我們的業務。

We earn our business by providing solid values, by providing industry-leading technologies, the world's largest logic capacity and efficient and cost-effective manufacturing to our customers, while maintaining trusting relationship with them.

我們透過提供堅實的價值來贏得業務，為客戶提供業界領先的技術、世界上最大的邏輯能力以及高效且具有成本效益的製造，同時與他們保持信任關係。

In our capital investment, our responsibility as TSMC management is to make the best decision in the interest of the company and our customers.

在我們的資本投資中，身為台積電管理階層，我們的責任是為了公司和客戶的利益做出最佳決策。

And our fiduciary duty is to our shareholders.

我們的信託責任是對股東的。

As the need for semiconductor infrastructure security has increased in recent years, we are expanding our global manufacturing footprint to sustain and enhance our competitive advantages and to better serve our customers in the new geopolitical environment.

近年來，隨著對半導體基礎設施安全的需求不斷增加，我們正在擴大我們的全球製造足跡，以維持和增強我們的競爭優勢，並在新的地緣政治環境中更好地服務我們的客戶。

In Taiwan, we are building capacity for N5 and N3 in Tainan Science Park.

在台灣，我們正在台南科學園區建造 N5 和 N3 的產能。

Due to the strong customer demand, we have further expand -- plan to expand in Northern, Central and Southern Science Parks in Taiwan.

由於客戶需求旺盛，我們進一步擴張－計劃在台灣北、中、南科學園區擴張。

And Taiwan will continue to be the home base and center of R&D for TSMC.

台灣仍將是台積電的大本營和研發中心。

As the initial phase of volume production of a leading-edge technology has to be in close proximity and closely coupled with R&D fab due to massive collaborative engineering activities, our leading node will continue to be ramped in Taiwan as well.

由於大規模的協作工程活動，領先技術量產的初始階段必須與研發工廠緊密結合，因此我們的領先節點也將繼續在台灣發展。

In the U.S., we are increasing our presence with an advanced 12-inch semiconductor fab in Arizona and the progress is well on track with our plan.

在美國，我們正在亞利桑那州建立一座先進的 12 英寸半導體工廠，擴大我們的業務，進展順利，符合我們的計劃。

We are actively in a fast-learning phase to optimize the operating efficiency for the U.S. fab.

我們正積極處於快速學習階段，以優化美國晶圓廠的營運效率。

The first wave of U.S.-hired engineers arrived Taiwan in late April for training on 5-nanometer technology.

第一波美國聘請的工程師於四月底抵達台灣，接受 5 奈米技術訓練。

Construction of the fab has already begun with equipment moving in scheduled for second half 2022.

該廠的建設已經開始，設備預計於 2022 年下半年搬入。

Phase 1 volume production of 20,000 wafer per month of 5-nanometer technology will begin in first quarter '24.

5 奈米技術的第一階段量產每月 20,000 片晶圓將於 2024 年第一季開始。

At that time, our 5-nanometer family will still be the most advanced high-volume production technology commercially available in the U.S.

屆時，我們的5奈米系列仍將是美國商用的最先進的大量生產技術。

Our customers welcome us to build capacity in the U.S. and pledged their strong support and business commitments.

我們的客戶歡迎我們在美國建立產能，並承諾提供強有力的支援和業務承諾。

Therefore, we do not rule out the possibility of a second phase of expansion to meet our customers' strong demand.

因此，我們不排除進行第二期擴建的可能性，以滿足客戶的強烈需求。

In China, as our fab construction in Nanjing has already completed in 2017, we have completed the Phase 1 volume ramp in third quarter 2020, now reaching 25,000 wafer per month capacity of 16-nanometer technology.

在中國，由於我們在南京的晶圓廠建設已於 2017 年完工，我們已於 2020 年第三季完成第一階段的產能提升，目前 16 奈米技術的產能達到每月 25,000 片晶圓。

We are further expanding our presence in Nanjing with 28-nanometer technology to support our customers' urgent needs with volume production beginning in second half 2022 and reaching 40,000 wafer per month capacity by mid-2023.

我們正在利用 28 奈米技術進一步擴大在南京的業務，以滿足客戶的迫切需求，並於 2022 年下半年開始量產，到 2023 年中期達到每月 40,000 片晶圓的產能。

For the long term, we forecast 28-nanometer will be the sweet spot for our embedded memory applications and our structural demand for 28-nanometer will be strongly supported by multiple specialty technologies.

從長遠來看，我們預測 28 奈米將成為我們嵌入式記憶體應用的最佳選擇，並且我們對 28 奈米的結構性需求將得到多種專業技術的大力支持。

Our global manufacturing expansion strategy is based on customer needs, business opportunities, operating efficiencies and cost economic considerations.

我們的全球製造擴張策略是基於客戶需求、商機、營運效率和成本經濟考量。

While overseas fab are not initially able to match the cost of our manufacturing operations in Taiwan, we will work with governments to minimize the cost gap to ensure we start with a level playing field.

雖然海外晶圓廠最初無法與我們在台灣的製造業務的成本相匹配，但我們將與政府合作，盡量縮小成本差距，以確保我們有一個公平的競爭環境。

We are working closely with our customers to firm up our wafer pricing to reflect the cost increases and ensure we earn a proper return.

我們正在與客戶密切合作，以穩定我們的晶圓定價，以反映成本的增加，並確保我們獲得適當的回報。

We will work diligently on enhancing our operations and service capabilities and optimize our efficiencies in overseas locations to continue to provide technology leadership with efficient and cost-effective manufacturing for our customers.

我們將努力提高我們的營運和服務能力，並優化我們在海外地點的效率，繼續為我們的客戶提供技術領先、高效且具成本效益的製造。

By taking such steps, we believe an expansion of our global manufacturing footprint will enable us to reach global talent, better serve our customers' needs, earn the proper return from our investment and deliver long-term profitable growth for our shareholders.

透過這些措施，我們相信，擴大我們的全球製造足跡將使我們能夠接觸到全球人才，更好地滿足客戶的需求，從我們的投資中獲得適當的回報，並為我們的股東帶來長期的獲利成長。

Thank you for your attention.

感謝您的關注。

Thank you, Chairman.

謝謝主席。

This concludes our prepared statements.

我們準備好的演講到此結束。

(Operator Instructions) Should you wish to raise your questions, I will translate it to English before our management answers your question.

（操作員說明）如果您想提出問題，我會將其翻譯成英文，然後我們的管理人員會回答您的問題。

(Operator Instructions) Now let us begin the Q&A session.

（操作員說明） 現在讓我們開始問答環節。

Operator, can we please proceed with the first caller on the line?

接線員，我們可以接聽線路上的第一個呼叫者嗎？

Yes.

是的。

The first caller, Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan.

第一個來電者是摩根大通的 Gokul Hariharan。

Maybe my first question I would focus on the semiconductor supply and demand.

也許我的第一個問題會關注半導體的供應和需求。

C.C., you mentioned that you're expecting demand to still remain extremely strong, supply to remain tight through end of this year potentially through next year as well.

C.C.，您提到您預計需求仍將保持極其強勁，供應將在今年年底前保持緊張，也可能持續到明年。

Could you talk about when do you expect supply and demand to come back into balance?

能談談預計供需何時恢復平衡嗎？

Do you see a situation where your customers go into a bit of an inventory correction mode sometime soon?

您是否發現您的客戶很快就會進入庫存修正模式？

Or you think that the structurally higher inventory is something that is likely to last for a much longer period of time than what originally the market thought?

或者您認為結構性較高的庫存可能會比市場最初認為的持續更長的時間？

Okay.

好的。

Gokul, let me summarize your first question.

Gokul，讓我總結一下你的第一個問題。

Gokul's first question is on the semiconductor supply-and-demand outlook.

戈庫爾的第一個問題是關於半導體供需前景。

He notes that C.C. has said our capacity will be tight throughout this year and into 2022.

他指出，C.C.曾表示，我們的產能從今年到 2022 年都會緊張。

All right.

好的。

So let me summarize Gokul's question again on semiconductor supply and demand.

因此，讓我再次總結戈庫爾關於半導體供給與需求的問題。

He's wondering or asking, when do we see supply and demand in the semiconductor coming back into the balance?

他想知道或問，我們什麼時候才能看到半導體的供需恢復平衡？

Is there a risk of an inventory correction anytime soon?

短期內是否有庫存調整的風險？

And how long can a higher level of inventory continue?

較高的庫存水準還能持續多久？

Well, Gokul, let me answer your question.

好吧，戈庫爾，讓我回答你的問題。

Let's -- let me share with you our perspective on the shortage right now.

讓我們——讓我與你們分享我們對目前短缺的看法。

The current semiconductor capacity shortage is being driven by both a structural increase in long-term market demand and also a short-term imbalance in the supply chain due to uncertainties from COVID-19 and geopolitical tensions.

目前的半導體產能短缺是由長期市場需求的結構性增長以及由於COVID-19和地緣政治緊張局勢的不確定性造成的供應鏈短期失衡所造成的。

And that may or may not persist.

這種情況可能會持續，也可能不會持續。

We do not rule out the possibility of an inventory correction in the future, but we expect our capacity will remain tight throughout this year and extend at least into 2022.

我們不排除未來庫存調整的可能性，但我們預計今年全年產能將保持緊張狀態，並至少延續到 2022 年。

But let me share with you also that even inventory correction to occur, we believe it will be less volatile than previous downturn as our underlying structural megatrend of 5G-related and HPC application will continue.

但我還要與您分享的是，即使出現庫存調整，我們相信其波動性也將小於先前的低迷，因為我們的 5G 相關和 HPC 應用的基本結構性大趨勢將持續下去。

Do I answer your question?

我回答你的問題嗎？

Gokul, does that address your first question?

Gokul，這解決了你的第一個問題嗎？

And do you have a second question, if so?

如果有的話，你還有第二個問題嗎？

All right.

好的。

Operator, I think we have lost Gokul.

接線員，我想我們已經失去了戈庫爾。

Maybe we'll move on to the next caller first.

也許我們會先接聽下一個來電者。

Yes.

是的。

The next one is Randy Abrams, Credit Suisse.

下一位是瑞信銀行的蘭迪·艾布拉姆斯。

I wanted to ask the question on the trend of cost per transistor.

我想問有關每個晶體管成本趨勢的問題。

I'm curious for 5-nanometer and 3-nanometer, how you're seeing continued improvement?

我很好奇 5 奈米和 3 奈米，您如何看待持續改進？

And for the customer motivation to migrate, how is that shifting between how our power performance density and cost versus also increasingly seek out the back-end system level integration?

對於客戶遷移的動機，我們的功率效能密度和成本與越來越多地尋求後端系統級整合之間的轉變如何？

Okay.

好的。

Randy, let me summarize your first question.

蘭迪，讓我總結一下你的第一個問題。

Your first question is on the cost per transistor.

您的第一個問題是每個電晶體的成本。

Randy wants to know what is the cost per transistor trend at 5-nanometer and 3-nanometer.

Randy 想了解 5 奈米和 3 奈米的每個電晶體成本趨勢是多少。

And also what do -- I guess, Randy, your question is sort of what are the customers value -- or evaluate when they look at the technologies as well.

還有，我想，蘭迪，你的問題是客戶看重什麼，或在他們查看技術時進行評估。

Is that correct?

這是正確的嗎？

Yes, right, between power performance density versus cost and also back-end integration.

是的，沒錯，在功率效能密度與成本以及後端整合之間。

Okay.

好的。

Randy.

蘭迪。

No, actually, today, the technology has getting more complex than the simple scaling.

不，實際上，今天的技術變得比簡單的縮放更複雜。

Actually, we work with our customers very closely and we have been working on the performance and energy efficiency of a technology.

實際上，我們與客戶密切合作，一直致力於技術的性能和能源效率的研究。

And we took several approach, of course, material innovation, transistor structure innovation.

我們採取了幾種方法，當然，材料創新、電晶體結構創新。

We also, in recent generations, we work heavily on the design and technology cooperation.

在近幾代中，我們也大力致力於設計和技術合作。

And also more recently, we work on the 3D ICs.

最近，我們致力於 3D IC 的研究。

All these innovations combined is to deliver the value for our customer to improve the system performance and the system's power efficiency.

所有這些創新相結合，旨在為我們的客戶提供價值，以提高系統性能和系統電源效率。

And TSMC is at the forefront of delivering this value and as evidenced by the strong demand and continued technology migration at 5 to 3. So in doing that, we believe we can continue earn a proper return for our investment.

台積電處於提供這一價值的最前沿，強勁的需求和持續的 5 比 3 的技術遷移證明了這一點。

Thank you, Randy.

謝謝你，蘭迪。

Okay.

好的。

My second question, if you could give an update on the 5-nanometer where there's still some dilution.

我的第二個問題，您是否可以提供有關 5 奈米的最新信息，其中仍然存在一些稀釋。

Maybe how much dilution you see in the second half?

也許下半年你會看到多少稀釋？

And update on how you see it trending towards the corporate gross margin.

並更新您如何看待公司毛利率的趨勢。

And as we look to next year, if 3-nanometer ramping late in the year, could we see a favorable like a bit more of a sweet spot for profitability as you have a more mature 5-nanometer, but not a new node yet ramping?

展望明年，如果 3 奈米在今年稍後實現量產，我們是否會看到有利的情況，例如盈利能力的最佳點，因為您擁有更成熟的 5 奈米，但還沒有新的節點量產？

Okay.

好的。

Randy, this is Wendell.

蘭迪，這是溫德爾。

Let me answer your question.

讓我回答你的問題。

The 5-nanometer contribution to our revenue will be much higher this year compared to last year.

今年5納米對我們營收的貢獻比去年高很多。

Therefore, we expect that the margin dilution from N5 this year will be between 2 to 3 percentage points.

因此，我們預計今年 N5 的利潤率稀釋將在 2 至 3 個百分點之間。

Now we also expect that N5, like previous nodes, will be able to reach -- the margin will reach the corporate average in about 7 to 8 quarters.

現在我們也預期N5像之前的節點一樣，能夠在大約7到8個季度內達到企業平均值。

With respect to 2022, it's a bit too early to talk about it.

對於2022年，現在談論還為時過早。

But we believe our long-term gross margin target of 50% continues to be achievable.

但我們相信我們 50% 的長期毛利率目標仍然可以實現。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Randy.

謝謝你，蘭迪。

Yes.

是的。

And the next one is Bruce Lu from Goldman Sachs.

下一位是高盛的陸小龍。

I think a lot of your customers have like different supply chain management policies.

我認為你們的許多客戶都有不同的供應鏈管理政策。

A lot of your customers signed a long-term contract with other foundry players with favorable pricing and payment terms.

您的許多客戶與其他代工廠商簽訂了具有優惠價格和付款條件的長期合約。

So does TSMC expect this will become the new norm for the foundry industry?

那麼台積電是否期望這將成為代工產業的新常態？

Does the industry-wide profit pool become bigger and the earnings fluctuation will be less in the future?

未來全行業利潤池是否會變大、獲利波動會變小？

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Bruce.

謝謝你，布魯斯。

Let me summarize your first question.

讓我總結一下你的第一個問題。

Bruce's first question is about the semiconductor supply chain, and he's observed that a lot of customers seem to be signing long-term contracts with foundries.

Bruce 的第一個問題是關於半導體供應鏈，他觀察到許多客戶似乎正在與代工廠簽訂長期合約。

So do we expect this to be the new norm in the future?

那我們期望這成為​​未來的新常態嗎？

And could this drive a bigger or larger industry-wide profit pool?

這是否會帶來更大或更大的全行業利潤池？

Okay.

好的。

Bruce, let me answer the question.

布魯斯，讓我來回答這個問題。

We are not able to comment on specific business terms with customers.

我們無法與客戶就具體業務條款發表評論。

However, we are working closely with our customers on different ways to secure their commitment.

然而，我們正在以不同的方式與客戶密切合作，以確保他們的承諾。

And customers understand our effort to support their growth.

客戶了解我們為支持他們的成長所做的努力。

And if we plan our capacity well based on the structural increase in the long-term market demand profile, we believe our utilization and profitability can be maintained.

如果我們根據長期市場需求狀況的結構性成長來很好地規劃我們的產能，我們相信我們的利用率和獲利能力是可以維持的。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Bruce, do you have a second question?

布魯斯，你還有第二個問題嗎？

Sure.

當然。

So I want to focus on the automotive like automotive revenue is roughly less than $2 billion in 2020 out of a $40 billion market.

因此，我想專注於汽車產業，例如 2020 年汽車收入在 400 億美元的市場中大約不到 20 億美元。

So with most of the automotive IDM companies are passive in capacity expansion, this creates a big addressable market for the foundry.

因此，由於大多數汽車IDM公司在產能擴張上都是被動的，這為代工廠創造了一個巨大的潛在市場。

So what is the addressable market for foundry in the automotive semi industry in the coming years?

那麼未來幾年汽車半導體產業代工的潛在市場是什麼？

Okay.

好的。

Bruce, let me summarize your second question.

布魯斯，讓我總結一下你的第二個問題。

So Bruce is asking about the longer-term outlook for the automotive industry.

因此，布魯斯詢問的是汽車產業的長期前景。

Automotive was less than $2 billion of our revenue last year, but he points out the automotive TAM is about $40 billion.

去年，汽車產業占我們收入的比例還不到 20 億美元，但他指出，汽車產業的 TAM 約為 400 億美元。

So he's wondering about sort of the long-term TAM addressable market for TSMC.

因此，他想知道台積電的長期 TAM 潛在市場。

Well, let me answer again.

嗯，我再回答一下。

We are quite positive on the long-term trend of the semiconductors in -- semiconductor content in automotive as the trend towards safer, greener and smarter vehicles will continue to drive silicon content increase as well as the demand for advanced and specialty technology, both.

我們對汽車中半導體含量的長期趨勢非常樂觀，因為更安全、更環保和更聰明的汽車趨勢將繼續推動矽含量的增加以及對先進和專業技術的需求。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Does that answer your question, Bruce?

這能回答你的問題嗎，布魯斯？

Can we have somehow like some specific numbers?

我們能得到一些具體的數字嗎？

Can you quantify that a little bit?

你能稍微量化一下嗎？

We cannot forecast in the future very accurately, right?

我們無法非常準確地預測未來，對嗎？

I mean that is so dynamic.

我的意思是，這太動態了。

But let me assure you that silicon content will be very important and will be increased.

但我向您保證，矽含量將非常重要並且將會增加。

Thank you, Bruce.

謝謝你，布魯斯。

The next one is a question from Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan.

下一個問題是摩根大通的 Gokul Hariharan 提出的。

Yes, let me ask my second question.

是的，讓我問第二個問題。

My second question is that on your 3-nanometer business, clearly the market is expecting you to make a lot more inroads into the HPC segment.

我的第二個問題是，就你們的 3 奈米業務而言，顯然市場期望你們在 HPC 領域取得更多進展。

One of your existing IDM customers have redoubled their efforts to get back into the foundry business.

您現有的 IDM 客戶之一已加倍努力重返代工業務。

Could you talk a little bit about how you manage this kind of what they call as coopetition, competition as well as cooperation?

您能談談您是如何管理這種所謂的合作、競爭與合作的嗎？

How does TSMC think about this when it thinks about capacity allocation, given that HPC is now becoming a very important driver for growth and this is probably the biggest HPC customer out there in terms of revenue size?

鑑於HPC現在正在成為成長的非常重要的驅動力，並且就收入規模而言，這可能是最大的HPC客戶，台積電在考慮產能分配時如何看待這一點？

Okay.

好的。

Gokul, thank you for your second question.

Gokul，謝謝你的第二個問題。

Let me summarize.

讓我總結一下。

He points out that HPC is -- seems to become a larger and larger contributor or driver, particularly at our 3-nanometer.

他指出，HPC 似乎正在成為越來越大的貢獻者或驅動因素，特別是在我們的 3 奈米技術領域。

He also points out that existing IDM customers are redoubling their efforts.

他還指出，現有的 IDM 客戶正在加倍努力。

So his question is really how -- I guess, how do we manage this duality?

所以他的問題其實是──我想，我們如何管理這種二元性？

How do we manage the capacity allocation and the relationship?

我們如何管理容量分配和關係？

Okay.

好的。

Let me answer the question by, first, you mentioned that IDM is our important customer.

我回答這個問題，首先你提到IDM是我們的重要客戶。

Let me say that.

讓我這麼說吧。

And we will collaborate in some area and might competing in other areas.

我們將在某些領域進行合作，並可能在其他領域進行競爭。

But let me explain again, TSMC is everybody's foundry and we support all our customers openly and fairly.

但讓我再解釋一下，台積電是每個人的代工廠，我們公開、公平地支持所有客戶。

We will allocate the necessary engineering resources to ensure all of our customers' product success, both existing customer and for the future customer.

我們將分配必要的工程資源，以確保所有客戶（包括現有客戶和未來客戶）的產品成功。

How to plan our capacity to support?

如何規劃我們的支援能力？

Actually our capacity planning is based on the long-term market demand and thus is underpinned by the industry megatrend, okay?

其實我們的產能規劃是基於長期的市場需求，是基於產業大趨勢的，好嗎？

Does that answer your question, Gokul?

這能回答你的問題嗎，Gokul？

So maybe just one follow-up.

所以也許只是一個後續行動。

Do you require a lot more assurance in terms of demand, solidity and demand longevity from IDM customers given they are also competing on process technology with you compared to pure fabless?

與純粹的無晶圓廠相比，您是否需要 IDM 客戶在需求、可靠性和需求壽命方面提供更多保證，因為他們也在製程技術上與您競爭？

So Gokul is asking whether that we would require more longer-term assurance from our IDM customers versus our fabless customers.

因此，Gokul 詢問我們是否需要 IDM 客戶比無晶圓廠客戶提供更長期的保證。

We will not specifically comment on that on a certain customer, okay?

我們不會專門針對某位客戶發表評論，好嗎？

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Gokul, and sorry for the disruption.

謝謝你，Gokul，對於打擾您深表歉意。

Next one to ask question, Charlie Chan from Morgan Stanley.

下一位提問者是摩根士丹利的陳查理。

First of all, I would like to thank TSMC for the donation of the vaccine to Taiwan.

首先感謝台積電捐贈給台灣疫苗。

I think that ensures business continuity of TSMC and also global semi supply chain.

我認為這確保了台積電以及全球半導體供應鏈的業務連續性。

And my question is about still your gross margin trend.

我的問題仍然是關於你們的毛利率趨勢。

So first of all, is your 3D IC or advanced packaging.

首先，是您的 3D IC 或先進封裝。

It seems like Wendell mentioned that the back end product possibilities are getting better in 3Q, I'm not sure if that's true.

溫德爾似乎提到後端產品的可能性在第三季變得更好，我不確定這是否屬實。

So the question is that currently the percentage of advanced packaging of TSMC's revenue.

那麼問題是，目前先進封裝佔台積電營收的比例。

And would the company still believe 3D packaging can still outgrow the wafer business and whether they would create a margin dilution.

該公司是否仍相信 3D 封裝仍能超越晶圓業務，以及它們是否會造成利潤稀釋。

So the first question is about the 3D advanced packaging.

所以第一個問題是關於3D先進封裝的。

Okay.

好的。

Let me summarize your question, Charlie.

讓我總結一下你的問題，查理。

You're asking about our 3D IC business.

您問的是我們的 3D IC 業務。

Charlie is asking the back-end profitability that Wendell cited improvement in the third quarter.

查理詢問溫德爾提到的第三季後端獲利能力的改善。

Is this the truth?

這是事實嗎？

And then also sort of the outlook for our 3D IC business in comparison to our overall business.

然後我們也對 3D IC 業務與整體業務的前景進行了比較。

And whether 3D IC business will dilute our profitability.

以及3D IC業務是否會稀釋我們的獲利能力。

Okay, Charlie.

好吧，查理。

First of all, the gross margin that I was talking about, improvement of back-end service in the third quarter actually is a seasonal factor.

首先，我所說的毛利率，第三季後端服務的改善其實是一個季節性因素。

As you know, our back-end services has seasonality.

如您所知，我們的後端服務具有季節性。

So second half normally has a higher gross margin.

所以下半年通常會有較高的毛利率。

But longer term, we expect its margin to continue to improve although it's still not as high as a gross margin of our wafer revenue.

但從長遠來看，我們預計其利潤率將繼續改善，儘管它仍然不如我們晶圓收入的毛利率那麼高。

But it has a lower asset capital intensity, therefore, the returns from back-end services is satisfactory.

但其資產資本密集度較低，因此後端服務的回報令人滿意。

In terms of a revenue percentage, we expect back-end services to account for about 8% of our total revenue this year.

從營收佔比來看，我們預計今年後端服務將占我們總收入的8%左右。

And in the next 5 years, we expect it will grow slightly higher than the corporate average.

未來5年，我們預計其成長將略高於企業平均。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Wendell.

謝謝你，溫德爾。

Do you have a second question, Charlie?

你還有第二個問題嗎，查理？

Yes, I do.

是的，我願意。

Yes, my next question is about the long-term gross margin trend, right?

是的，我的下一個問題是關於長期毛利率趨勢，對吧？

Because we did create some debate about the thrust -- or the higher CapEx intensity, your bargaining power against different vendors and those customers.

因為我們確實引發了一些關於推力的爭論——或者說更高的資本支出強度，以及你針對不同供應商和這些客戶的討價還價能力。

So really, I want to ask this openly to company management.

所以說實話，我想向公司管理階層公開詢問這個問題。

Does TSMC believe you has acquired the monopoly of the leading edge in the industry, why and why not?

台積電是否相信自己已經獲得了行業領先優勢的壟斷，為什麼，為什麼不呢？

And if yes, do you think you have the monopoly, why can not TSMC charge higher wafer price to cover the increase of CapEx intensity?

如果是，您認為自己具有壟斷地位，為什麼台積電不能收取更高的晶圓價格來彌補資本支出強度的增加？

And lastly, if the company were to -- need to choose between the margin sustainability and also the market share, what would be your choice?

最後，如果公司需要在利潤可持續性和市場佔有率之間做出選擇，您會選擇什麼？

Okay.

好的。

Let me summarize your second question, Charlie.

讓我總結一下你的第二個問題，查理。

So Charlie is asking about the long-term gross margin trend and bargaining power.

所以查理問的是長期毛利率趨勢和議價能力。

And he is wondering -- he wants to know whether we see or believe we have a monopoly at the leading edge or not.

他想知道——他想知道我們是否看到或相信我們在前沿領域擁有壟斷地位。

And if we do, I guess, part of your question, Charlie, is then how -- pricing.

如果我們這樣做，我想，查理，你的問題的一部分是如何定價。

And then also, if we have to choose between market share and profitability, how should we choose?

那麼，如果我們必須在市場佔有率和獲利能力之間做出選擇，我們該如何選擇？

Charlie, let me answer this question.

查理，讓我來回答這個問題。

First, we do have a very high market share on the leading-edge technology node.

首先，我們在前沿技術節點上確實擁有非常高的市場份額。

But our pricing strategy is strategic, and we don't take an opportunistic approach.

但我們的定價策略是策略性的，我們不採取機會主義的做法。

And it's far away from you say that we try to bargaining power.

而且離你說的還遠，我們盡量討價還價。

In fact, we work with our customers closely and we want to help them to be successful while we get a proper return.

事實上，我們與客戶密切合作，我們希望幫助他們取得成功，同時獲得適當的回報。

That's all I can answer for you for our pricing.

關於我們的定價，我能為您回答的就是這些。

And looking ahead, we continue our practice, try our best to hear our customers, to grow and we want to get the proper return.

展望未來，我們將繼續實踐，盡力傾聽客戶的聲音，不斷成長，並希望獲得適當的回報。

So that's why we are firming up our wafer pricing.

這就是我們提高晶圓定價的原因。

And we are confident that we can get our gross margin about 50% or above in the long term.

我們有信心長期維持50%左右或以上的毛利率。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

All right.

好的。

The next one to ask a question, Nicolas Gaudois from UBS.

下一位提問者是瑞銀集團 (UBS) 的尼古拉斯高杜瓦 (Nicolas Gaudois)。

Earlier, you referred to your expansion of capacity at 28-nanometer in Nanjing for about 16,000 -- 15,000 wafer per months.

早些時候，您提到了南京28奈米產能的擴張，每月產能約16,000至15,000片晶圓。

If the demand in trailing edge is effectively structurally higher and tying up to the leading edge, are we going to see additions in capacity in the trailing edge becoming more of a recurring feature for TSMC as for the rest of the industry going forward?

如果後緣的需求在結構上實際上更高並與前緣聯繫在一起，那麼我們是否會看到後緣產能的增加成為台積電的一個經常性特徵，就像行業其他公司一樣？

Okay, Nick, let me try to summarize your first question.

好的，尼克，讓我試著總結你的第一個問題。

So Nick is saying that, as Chairman said, we are expanding our capacity in Nanjing for 28-nanometer.

所以尼克說，正如董事長所說，我們正在擴大我們在南京的28奈米產能。

So his question is that do we see the demand at the trailing edge or the mature nodes becoming structurally higher?

所以他的問題是，我們是否看到後緣或成熟節點的需求在結構上變得更高？

And then will we consider or add capacity in those trailing edge nodes?

然後我們會考慮或增加這些後緣節點的容量嗎？

Okay.

好的。

This is Mark.

這是馬克。

Let me answer your question.

讓我回答你的問題。

Our strategy more recently in mature node is to work closely with our customer to develop specialty technology solution.

我們最近在成熟節點的策略是與客戶密切合作開發專業技術解決方案。

This is not described by the numbers.

這不是用數字來描述的。

Actually, we are leading in many 28-nanometer specialty technologies and we can meet their requirement and create differentiated long-term value for them.

事實上，我們在28奈米的許多專業技術上都是領先的，我們可以滿足他們的需求，為他們創造差異化的長期價值。

And we expect this structural demand will continue.

我們預計這種結構性需求將持續下去。

And of course, we'll focus on our investment on specialty technology to support that.

當然，我們將專注於對專業技術的投資來支持這一點。

So for the manufacturing greenfield, nodes expansion.

所以對於製造業的綠地、節點的擴張。

And we do not rule it out, we will build case by case as long as the economics can justify and customer commitment can be secured.

我們不排除這種可能性，只要經濟上合理並且能夠保證客戶的承諾，我們就會根據具體情況進行設計。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Nick, do you have a second question?

尼克，你還有第二個問題嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Very quickly.

非常快。

Thank you, Jeff.

謝謝你，傑夫。

A clarification effectively for the investment in the U.S., you say the equipment moving in, in H2 '22 and then production in Q1 '24.

對美國投資的有效澄清，你說設備在 22 年下半年搬入，然後在 24 年第一季生產。

A reasonably long runway, I guess.

我猜跑道相當長。

So is that because new fab you need to obviously run preproduction, that qualification time will be reasonably low?

那麼是因為新工廠顯然需要預生產，所以資格認證時間會相當短？

Yes.

是的。

We make -- prepared a little bit longer preparation time just because that's a new semiconductor environment for our operations.

我們準備了更長一點的準備時間，因為這對我們的營運來說是一個新的半導體環境。

But of course, we will continue to compress the schedule as much as we can, yes.

但當然，我們會繼續盡可能壓縮日程，是的。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Nick.

謝謝你，尼克。

The next one to ask question, Roland Shu from Citigroup.

下一位提問者是來自花旗集團的 Roland Shu。

My first question is for your Japan R&D center.

我的第一個問題是關於你們的日本研發中心的。

So it is stated more than 20 Japanese companies will work with you at your 3D IC R&D center in Japan.

所以據說有超過20家日本公司將在您位於日本的3D IC研發中心與您合作。

So I want to know what are the roles and responsibility for every party including yourself in this Japan R&D center?

那麼我想知道包括你在內的各方在這個日本研發中心的角色和責任是什麼？

And also, do you plan to start 3D IC packaging mass production in Japan one day?

另外，您是否計劃有一天在日本開始3D IC封裝量產？

And do you plan to build a wafer fab in Japan for foundry business going forward?

未來您是否計劃在日本建造晶圓廠以開展代工業務？

Okay.

好的。

Roland's first question.

羅蘭的第一個問題。

He wants to know about our 3D IC research center in Japan.

他想了解我們在日本的3D IC研究中心。

There's more than 20 companies involved according to him.

據他介紹，有20多家公司參與其中。

So what are the roles and responsibilities of that?

那麼它的角色和職責是什麼呢？

And also, will we build a packaging -- 3D IC packaging integration facility in Japan.

另外，我們是否會在日本建立一個封裝——3D IC 封裝整合工廠。

And will we consider a wafer fab in Japan.

我們會考慮在日本建立晶圓廠嗎？

So 3 parts to this question.

這個問題分為三個部分。

Okay.

好的。

Roland, let me answer your question.

羅蘭，我來回答你的問題。

First, yes, there is more than 20 membership to join this Japan's 3D ICs research center.

首先，是的，這個日本3D IC研究中心有超過20名會員。

In fact, what's the role and responsibility, TSMC is in charge of this one.

其實這個角色和責任是什麼，台積電是負責的。

And we also -- in technology, we're also in charge of the integration for all the major partner together, too, so that we can be successful in the most advanced packaging technology, which includes TSMC's 3D IC and some of our partner's advanced material and our partner's most advanced substrate technology.

我們也—在技術方面，我們也負責所有主要合作夥伴的整合，這樣我們就可以在最先進的封裝技術上取得成功，其中包括台積電的3D IC和我們合作夥伴的一些先進技術。合作夥伴最先進的基材技術。

Everything put together, which is necessary for the future HPC's application that we needed.

一切都放在一起，這對於我們需要的未來 HPC 應用程式是必需的。

Do we have a plan to mass production in the 3D IC in Japan?

3D IC有在日本量產的計畫嗎？

It's not in our current planning yet, okay?

這還沒有在我們目前的計劃中，好嗎？

And what's your next question?

你的下一個問題是什麼？

And will we consider...

我們會考慮...

How about the wafer fab, yes.

晶圓廠怎麼樣，是的。

The wafer fab, we are -- actually, let me say that we are -- we do not rule out any possibility.

晶圓廠，我們——實際上，讓我說我們是——我們不排除任何可能性。

And in Japan, we are in due diligence process now to expect to do that wafer fab, let me say that, clearly.

在日本，我們現在正處於盡職調查過程中，希望能夠建造晶圓廠，讓我明確地說。

Okay.

好的。

My second question is Mark also said that the key concern to build a fab overseas is considering the cost gap, and you are working with the governments to close the cost gap.

我的第二個問題是，馬克也說過，在海外建造晶圓廠的關鍵問題是考慮成本差距，你們正在與政府合作來縮小成本差距。

However, recently there were some noises in the U.S. to request the U.S. government to invest wisely in domestic companies to support U.S. authority.

然而，最近美國國內出現一些聲音，要求美國政府明智地投資本國企業，以支持美國的權威。

So it changed U.S. government's plan and lead to fail to close the cost gap to TSMC in U.S. operations.

因此改變了美國政府的計劃，導致無法縮小與台積電在美國業務的成本差距。

And how are you going to close the cost gap if there is no adequate support from the U.S. government, okay?

如果沒有美國政府的足夠支持，你將如何縮小成本差距，好嗎？

Okay.

好的。

Let me summarize Roland's second question, it's about our U.S. fab and the cost gap.

我總結羅蘭的第二個問題，是關於我們美國晶圓廠和成本差距的。

He points out that recently there is some discussion for U.S. incentives to invest in domestic companies.

他指出，最近有一些關於美國投資國內企業的激勵措施的討論。

And so therefore, if this were to be the case, how would that affect TSMC and how would we manage the cost gap?

因此，如果是這種情況，這會對台積電產生什麼影響？

Okay.

好的。

Roland, right?

羅蘭，對嗎？

This is -- I think this current event is still developing.

我認為當前的事件仍在發展中。

You know that in U.S., the originally proposed CHIPS for America Act has gained bipartisan support.

大家知道，在美國，最初提出的《CHIPS for America》法案得到了兩黨的支持。

And we are very happy that in the Senate they passed a bill of U.S. Innovation and Competition Act already passed in Senate.

我們很高興他們在參議院通過了一項已經在參議院通過的《美國創新與競爭法案》。

Right now it's in the hands of the House of Representatives, and we are very optimistic that they will gain bipartisan support.

現在它掌握在眾議院手中，我們非常樂觀地認為他們將獲得兩黨的支持。

The reason we -- the bipartisan support for this is to create a level playing field for the semiconductor fab investment in U.S. so that there will be a renewal fab industry in the U.S. Of course, how well it can be done in operation up to each company to do the operations well.

我們兩黨支持這一點的原因是為美國的半導體晶圓廠投資創造一個公平的競爭環境，以便美國的晶圓廠產業能夠更新。營運.

And we are still learning the cost structure in the U.S. But in the meantime, in addition to take on this level playing field opportunities and further on, the operating cost will have to be shared with our customers.

我們仍在了解美國的成本結構，但同時，除了抓住這個公平競爭環境的機會之外，營運成本還必須與我們的客戶分擔。

So that's a part of our firm up price -- firming up pricing, including the increased global manufacturing footprint.

因此，這是我們堅挺價格的一部分——堅挺定價，包括增加全球製造足跡。

So we believe then...

所以我們相信...

So pricing from the other companies?

那麼其他公司的定價呢？

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

We believe in that way, we can continue to sustain our profitability as before.

我們相信，透過這種方式，我們能夠像以前一樣繼續維持我們的獲利能力。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Roland.

謝謝主席，也謝謝羅蘭。

Next one, we have Laura Chen from KGI.

下一位是凱基證券 (KGI) 的勞拉·陳 (Laura Chen)。

Can you hear me?

你聽得到我嗎？

Yes, we can hear you, Laura.

是的，我們能聽到你的聲音，蘿拉。

First of all, I just want to ask about our global expansion plan.

首先，我想問一下我們的全球擴張計劃。

Can you give us more details about our expansion plan other than like the advanced node in the U.S.?

除了美國的先進節點之外，您能否給我們更多關於我們的擴張計劃的細節？

Mark just mentioned that the 28-nanometer will be the sweet spot.

Mark 剛剛提到 28 奈米將是最佳選擇。

So will we expand more other than China or other regions, would we consider that?

那麼我們是否會考慮在中國以外或其他地區進行更多擴張？

And how would that impact our already announced USD 100 billion CapEx for the next 3 years?

這將如何影響我們已經宣布的未來 3 年 1000 億美元的資本支出？

That's my first question.

這是我的第一個問題。

Okay, Laura, let me summarize your question.

好吧，勞拉，讓我總結一下你的問題。

Your question is about our global manufacturing footprint.

您的問題是關於我們的全球製造足跡。

And I think your question is on our mature node.

我認為你的問題是在我們成熟的節點上。

Do we have plans for further expansion of mature nodes in different locations?

我們是否有計劃在不同地點進一步擴展成熟節點？

And if so, how will this affect our CapEx in the next few years?

如果是這樣，這將如何影響我們未來幾年的資本支出？

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Laura, I think several project is still under planning.

勞拉，我認為有幾個項目仍在規劃中。

We do not rule out the possibility in Japan.

我們不排除在日本的可能性。

Actually, C.C. just mentioned that we are in the due diligence process now to have a specialty technology fab in Japan.

事實上，C.C.剛才提到，我們現在正在進行盡職調查，以便在日本擁有專業技術工廠。

But of course, the decision is still too early to disclose because the final decision will be based on our customer needs, operating efficiency, evaluation and cost economics.

但當然，目前透露該決定還為時過早，因為最終決定將基於我們的客戶需求、營運效率、評估和成本經濟學。

So for those projects, we have not included into the $100 billion CapEx budget.

因此，對於這些項目，我們沒有納入 1,000 億美元的資本支出預算中。

Okay?

好的？

Okay, very clear.

好的，非常清楚。

Yes.

是的。

And my second question is about the 16- and 12-nanometer.

我的第二個問題是關於 16 奈米和 12 奈米的。

We know that the current supply is also quite tight and the client demand is very strong, particularly for the RF transceiver, et cetera.

我們知道目前供應也相當緊張，客戶需求非常強勁，特別是射頻收發器等。

So I'm just wondering, do we also have the plan to expand on 16 and 12?

所以我只是想知道，我們是否也有擴展 16 和 12 的計劃？

Okay.

好的。

And so Laura's second question continues to more specifically on 16-nanometer/12-nanometer.

因此，Laura 的第二個問題繼續更具體地討論 16 奈米/12 奈米。

The supply continues to be tight, demand is very strong.

供應持續緊張，需求十分旺盛。

Do we have any plans to expand at this node?

我們有在此節點進行擴展的計劃嗎？

Well, Laura, let me answer this question.

好吧，勞拉，讓我回答這個問題。

We -- again, this is the kind of mature node for TSMC.

我們再次強調，這是台積電的成熟節點。

And we will expand our capacity with the customer's commitment.

我們將根據客戶的承諾擴大我們的產能。

And also, we have to consider the economics.

而且，我們還必須考慮經濟學。

And so if everything is positive, in fact, we will consider to expand the capacity to support our customer actually.

因此，如果一切都是正面的，事實上，我們將考慮擴大實際支援客戶的能力。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Laura.

謝謝你，勞拉。

Next one, we have Brett Simpson from Arete Research.

下一位是來自 Arete Research 的 Brett Simpson。

I had a question on gross margins.

我有一個關於毛利率的問題。

I guess you've talked about 50% gross margin as a long-term target for quite some time now.

我想您已經談論 50% 的毛利率作為長期目標已經有一段時間了。

And I understand there's been FX headwinds and the 5-nanometer ramp as a headwind.

據我所知，存在外匯逆風和 5 奈米斜坡作為逆風。

If I look at your big fabless customers, they are delivering structurally much higher gross margins as a result of accessing your leading-edge capacity, particularly in the last 12 months when your gross margins are going down.

如果我看看你們的大型無晶圓廠客戶，由於獲得了你們的領先產能，他們在結構上提供了更高的毛利率，特別是在你們毛利率下降的過去 12 個月裡。

And I'd just like to ask, given your position in the industry, do you really think 50% is an appropriate level of return.

我想問一下，鑑於您在行業中的地位，您真的認為 50% 的回報水平合適嗎？

And doesn't your position warrant some structural margin expansion at the gross margin level?

您的立場是否需要在毛利率水準上進行一些結構性利潤擴張？

Okay.

好的。

Brett's first question is about our gross margin.

布雷特的第一個問題是關於我們的毛利率。

He notes that, of course, we have been facing headwinds from the foreign exchange rate and also the 5-nanometer ramp, which carries some level of dilution.

他指出，當然，我們一直面臨著匯率和 5 奈米斜坡帶來的阻力，這帶來了一定程度的稀釋。

But he points out that our customers' gross margin is, particularly in the last 12 months, has been structurally higher than ours.

但他指出，我們客戶的毛利率，特別是在過去 12 個月裡，在結構上一直高於我們。

So he wants to know, given our position, do we think 50% is achievable?

所以他想知道，考慮到我們的立場，我們認為 50% 是可以實現的嗎？

Why would it not be something structurally higher?

為什麼它不是結構上更高的東西呢？

Is that correct, Brett?

這是正確的嗎，布雷特？

Yes.

是的。

Really whether 50% is an appropriate level of return.

確實50%的回報水準是否合適。

Given everyone else is right -- is seeing -- delivering higher gross margins, why wouldn't TSMC look for structurally higher gross margins as well like everyone else?

鑑於其他人都是正確的——正在看到——提供更高的毛利率，為什麼台積電不像其他人一樣尋求結構性更高的毛利率呢？

Right.

正確的。

This is Wendell.

這是溫德爾。

Let me answer your question.

讓我回答你的問題。

First, if we look at shorter term, you talked about in the last 12 months.

首先，如果我們著眼於短期，你談到了過去 12 個月的情況。

Foreign exchange does play a very big role in the gross margin between last year and this year, year-to-date.

外匯確實在去年和今年年初至今的毛利率中發揮了非常大的作用。

Last year, the dollar against NT rate was $29.43 in average.

去年，美元兌新台幣平均匯率為29.43美元。

This year, year-to-date, is 28 -- somewhere around 28.

今年，年初至今，已經 28 歲了——大概 28 歲左右。

That creates a 2 percentage point difference in gross margin, i.e., if the gross margin -- I mean, if foreign exchange rate stays where it was last year, we would be having a 52% gross margin in the second quarter already.

這造成了毛利率 2 個百分點的差異，也就是說，如果毛利率——我的意思是，如果外匯匯率保持在去年的水平，我們第二季的毛利率將達到 52%。

And also, I talked about the dilution from the N5 this year, another 2 to 3 points.

而且，我還談到了今年 N5 的稀釋，另外 2 到 3 個點。

So with all these negatives, we still can make 50% in second quarter and the third quarter.

因此，儘管有這些負面因素，我們仍然可以在第二季和第三季實現 50% 的利潤。

That's the short term.

這是短期的。

Now longer term, the investment that we are making is for future business growth.

從長遠來看，我們正在進行的投資是為了未來的業務成長。

At some point of time, at the beginning, we may -- the short-term advanced technology is getting more and more challenging in cost.

在某個時間點，在一開始，我們可能會——短期先進技術在成本方面變得越來越具有挑戰性。

Then we are working closely with our customers to firm up the wafer pricing and also working with our suppliers to ensure that the cost improvement can be delivered.

然後，我們與客戶密切合作，確定晶圓價格，並與供應商合作，確保實現成本改善。

And with all these efforts, we still think that 50% is a good target and is achievable.

經過所有這些努力，我們仍然認為 50% 是一個很好的目標，而且是可以實現的。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Wendell.

謝謝你，溫德爾。

And maybe just a follow-up.

也許只是後續行動。

I noticed your China business grew from 6% of sales in Q2 -- sorry, 6% of sales in Q1 to 11% of sales in Q2.

我注意到你們的中國業務從第二季銷售額的 6% 成長——抱歉，第一季銷售額的 6% 成長到第二季銷售額的 11%。

Can you talk about some of the drivers that delivered that upside?

您能談談帶來這優勢的一些驅動因素嗎？

And long term, how do we think about China scaling within your business?

從長遠來看，我們如何看待貴公司在中國的擴張？

Do you think we'll get back to sustainably double-digit percent of sales?

您認為我們的銷售額會恢復到可持續的兩位數百分比嗎？

And what would drive that?

是什麼推動了這一點？

Okay.

好的。

So Brett's second question is related to our China business.

所以布雷特的第二個問題與我們的中國業務有關。

He notes in the near term that China contribution has gone from 6% in the first quarter to 11%.

他指出，短期內中國的貢獻已從第一季的 6% 上升至 11%。

So he wants to know what is driving this.

所以他想知道是什麼推動了這一點。

And then he asked a longer-term question, which is how should we think about our China business over the next few years?

然後他問了一個更長遠的問題，就是未來幾年我們該如何思考我們的中國業務？

And can it return or sustain at an improving or double-digit level?

它能否回歸或維持在改善或兩位數的水平？

Well, Brett, let me summarize it.

好吧，布雷特，讓我總結一下。

I think China remains a very strong and growing market.

我認為中國仍然是一個非常強大且不斷成長的市場。

And we have developed a large customer base in China and we'll work with them to grow our business and expect our business from China will continue to increase in all the market sector that we're talking about, smartphone, HPC, IoT and automotive also.

And we have developed a large customer base in China and we'll work with them to grow our business and expect our business from China will continue to increase in all the market sector that we're talking about, smartphone, HPC, IoT and automotive也.

And also, Brett's question on the improvement from China from 6% in first quarter to 11% in the second quarter.

另外，Brett 也提出了關於中國從第一季的 6% 提高到第二季的 11% 的問題。

What is driving that?

是什麼推動了這一點？

That's because mainly the HPC platform.

那主要是因為 HPC 平台。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Brett.

謝謝你，布雷特。

Next one, we have Charles Shi from Needham & Company.

下一位是來自 Needham & Company 的 Charles Shi。

Can you guys hear me?

你們聽得到我說話嗎？

Yes, we can hear you fine, Charles.

是的，我們聽得清楚，查爾斯。

So I want to ask the first question really is about your -- the adoption of your most leading-edge node process.

所以我想問的第一個問題其實是關於你們採用最前沿的節點流程的。

Historically, if I understand correctly, your smartphone platform seems to lead the adoption in the past, at least especially in the first year of the production ramp.

從歷史上看，如果我理解正確的話，你們的智慧型手機平台似乎在過去引領了採用，至少特別是在產量增加的第一年。

And I think you did say that the high-performance computing will be coming increasingly important.

我認為您確實說過高效能運算將變得越來越重要。

So the question really is about 3-nanometer, which we are about a year away from the mass production.

所以問題實際上是關於 3 奈米的，我們距離大規模生產還有大約一年的時間。

So could high-performance computing, from what you see today, really play a bigger role or even like the leading role in the first ramp of the 3-nanometer especially in the first year?

那麼，從您今天所看到的情況來看，高效能運算真的可以發揮更大的作用，甚至可以在 3 奈米的第一次升級中發揮主導作用，尤其是在第一年嗎？

Do you even see like high-performance computing could eventually be like the actual lead adopter of the leading-edge nodes going forward?

您是否認為高效能運算最終可能成為未來前沿節點的實際主要採用者？

Okay.

好的。

So Charles' first question is about the drivers of leading node adoption.

因此，Charles 的第一個問題是關於領先節點採用的驅動因素。

He notes in the past traditionally it's mainly come from smartphones, but HPC also seems to becoming more important.

他指出，過去傳統上它主要來自智慧型手機，但 HPC 似乎也變得越來越重要。

So his question is on N3, do we expect HPC to play a bigger role in the ramp of N3, particularly in the first year?

所以他的問題是關於 N3 的，我們是否期望 HPC 在 N3 的提升中發揮更大的作用，特別是在第一年？

And could N3 become the first adopter or primary adopter?

N3 能否成為第一位採用者或主要採用者？

Charles, this is C.C. Wei.

查爾斯，這是 C.C.偉.

Let me answer this one.

這個問題我來回答一下吧。

The N3's first year is ramping up, still smartphone plays the biggest role.

N3 的第一年正在加速，但智慧型手機仍然扮演著最大的角色。

Of course, your observation is correct.

當然，你的觀察是正確的。

HPC application is also important and getting more and more important.

HPC應用也很重要並且變得越來越重要。

And in fact, HPC will be our largest revenue driver in the next 5 years.

事實上，HPC 將成為我們未來 5 年最大的收入驅動力。

So in the N3 node, in addition to the smartphones, we do expect the HPC's application will become important also.

所以在N3節點，除了智慧型手機之外，我們預期HPC的應用也將變得重要。

Did that answer your question?

這回答了你的問題嗎？

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

Excellent.

出色的。

So maybe the second question, I still want to touch upon your global expansion.

所以也許第二個問題，我還是想談談你們的全球擴張。

I know you probably are tired of answering that already, but forgive me, I'm going to ask another one.

我知道你可能已經厭倦了回答這個問題，但請原諒我，我要問另一個問題。

You announced your fab in Arizona, which the technology node will be 5-nanometer.

您宣佈在亞利桑那州建立晶圓廠，其技術節點將是 5 奈米。

And as I understand, 5-nanometer wafers will very likely require your in-house advanced packaging solutions like either InFo, CoWoS or maybe even SoIC going forward.

據我了解，5 奈米晶圓很可能需要您內部的先進封裝解決方案，例如 InFo、CoWoS，甚至是 SoIC。

So -- but your current packaging facilities, as I know, are 100% in Taiwan.

所以——但據我所知，你們目前的包裝設施 100% 在台灣。

And I can imagine that if you are really out putting wafers in Arizona for 5-nanometer, based on your current footprint, you got to ship those back to Taiwan for packaging then send back to your customers, which I can imagine it could be a little bit challenging in terms of cost, logistical efficiency.

我可以想像，如果你真的要在亞利桑那州生產 5 納米晶圓，根據你目前的足跡，你必須將它們運回台灣進行包裝，然後寄回給你的客戶，我可以想像這可能是一個在成本、物流效率方面有點挑戰。

So I'm not going to ask for a specific plan, but do you kind of foresee maybe you want to set up an advanced packaging facility in Arizona in the near future?

所以我不會要求具體的計劃，但您是否預見到您可能想在不久的將來在亞利桑那州建立一個先進的封裝工廠？

Right.

正確的。

So Charles, I'll shorten your second question.

查爾斯，我會縮短你的第二個問題。

I think Charles is asking in Arizona we are building wafer capacity with 5-nanometer.

我認為 Charles 正在亞利桑那州詢問我們正在建造 5 奈米晶圓產能。

Will we also consider setting up 3D IC integration capacity or -- in Arizona as well?

我們是否還會考慮在亞利桑那州建立 3D IC 整合能力？

This is Mark, Charles.

這是馬克，查爾斯。

I understand your concern.

我理解你的擔憂。

But if you look at the current industry landscape, what you just said is nothing new.

但如果你看看現在的產業格局，你剛才所說的並不是什麼新鮮事。

Everyone have their wafer produced in one location and packaged in another even including major chip producer in U.S. So for that matter, we do not see and compose any logistical difficulties.

每個人的晶圓都在一個地點生產並在另一個地點封裝，甚至包括美國的主要晶片生產商。

We just continue to evaluate, and currently, we do not have that 3D IC fab in Arizona at this point.

我們只是繼續評估，目前，我們在亞利桑那州還沒有那個 3D IC 工廠。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Chairman.

謝謝主席。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Next one, we have Andrew Lu from Sinolink Securities.

下一位請來的是國金證券的 Andrew Lu。

Can you hear me?

你聽得到我嗎？

Yes.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

My first question is regarding 3-nanometer ramp-up for second half, starting from second half next year.

我的第一個問題是關於下半年 3 奈米製程的提升，從明年下半年開始。

I recall the 7-nanometer ramp-up in year 2018 second quarter with some revenue contribution and the 5-nanometer in second quarter last year, year 2020.

我記得 2018 年第二季的 7 奈米製程產量增加，並帶來了一些收入貢獻，而 2020 年第二季的 5 奈米製程產量也有所增加。

But it seems like 3-nanometers clearly some delay for second half next year.

但看起來 3 納米顯然會推遲到明年下半年。

So I want to ask, is that because the technology difficulty, we cannot ramp up in second quarter or we don't have a big customer to use 3-nanometer at the beginning stage that's why we push back the ramp-up in second half next year?

所以我想問一下，是不是因為技術難度，我們第二季度無法提產，還是我們一開始沒有大客戶使用3納米，所以我們推遲了下半年的提產？

That's my first question.

這是我的第一個問題。

Okay.

好的。

So Andrew's first question, let me summarize, is asking about our 3-nanometer ramp.

讓我總結一下，安德魯的第一個問題是詢問我們的 3 奈米斜坡。

He notes that 5-nanometer and 7-nanometer in the past few years basically ramped in the middle of the year.

他指出，過去幾年5奈米和7奈米基本上都是在年中開始成長。

N3, we said the ramp will be in second half of next year.

N3，我們說坡道將在明年下半年進行。

So what is the reason behind this?

那麼這背後的原因是什麼呢？

Andrew, you have a very good observation and you calculate that, yes, about 3 to 4 months is a delay as compared with 5-nanometer.

Andrew，你的觀察非常好，你計算出，是的，與 5 奈米相比，大約有 3 到 4 個月的延遲。

Yes, 3-nanometer technology actually is very complicated and in both processing technology and also the customers' product design.

是的，3奈米技術其實非常複雜，無論是加工技術還是客戶的產品設計。

So we work with a customer, and finally, we decided to ramp up in the second half of next year.

因此，我們與客戶合作，最後決定在明年下半年加大力度。

And this is -- we decided with our customer with the best fit their need.

這就是－我們與客戶一起決定最適合他們需求的方案。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Okay.

好的。

My second question is recently, we believe NXP, Infineon, Renesas earlier either have some power down outage and also the fire resulting their second quarter or first quarter utilization down to almost 0. And recently, we are hearing these guys are back in the utilization rate to 100%.

我的第二個問題是，最近，我們相信恩智浦、英飛凌、瑞薩早些時候要么出現了一些斷電，要么發生了火災，導致他們第二季度或第一季的利用率降至幾乎為0。

The wafer output may start appear in Q4.

晶圓產量可能會在第四季開始出現。

Most of these companies are leading company in automotive semiconductor, including MCU.

這些公司大多是汽車半導體領域的領導公司，包括MCU。

Do we have some concern once these customers are ramping up their own fab and that will result the next year or starting from Q4 the order automotive semiconductor to us will be reduced -- largely reduced.

一旦這些客戶擴大自己的晶圓廠規模，我們是否會擔心，這將導致明年或從第四季開始，我們的汽車半導體訂單將減少——大幅減少。

Okay.

好的。

So Andrew's second question is on automotive.

安德魯的第二個問題是關於汽車的。

He asked as IDMs ramp up their production in the second half, are we concerned or do we have concerns that heading into the end of this year or into 2022, that TSMC's automotive customers will greatly reduce their orders to TSMC?

他問，隨著IDM下半年產量增加，我們是否擔心或擔心今年底或2022年，台積電的汽車客戶會大幅減少對台積電的訂單？

Andrew, this is C. C. Wei again.

安德魯，我又是魏CC。

Let me answer your question.

讓我回答你的問題。

A very short answer is that, no, we don't have any concern.

一個非常簡短的答案是，不，我們沒有任何擔憂。

The reason is very simple: because of we offer the technology and our customer working closely with us.

原因很簡單：因為我們提供技術以及我們的客戶與我們密切合作。

And for some of the technologies, mostly in the leading edge -- not the leading edge, I'm sorry, it's 55-, 40-nanometer and 28-nanometer that our customers need TSMC's support and the demand will continue to grow.

而對於一些技術，大部分是尖端技術——不是前沿技術，對不起，是55奈米、40奈米和28奈米，我們的客戶需要台積電的支持，而且需求會持續成長。

And so we don't worry about once they bring up their fab and then TSMC's demand will be decreased.

因此，我們不擔心一旦他們建立晶圓廠，台積電的需求就會減少。

The answer is no, and remain tight and actually very tight in 2022 also.

答案是否定的，並且在 2022 年仍然保持緊縮，而且實際上非常緊縮。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Andrew.

謝謝你，安德魯。

Next one, we have Martin Lau from FSSA.

下一位是來自 FSSA 的 Martin Lau。

The first question relates to politics.

第一個問題與政治有關。

I counted, you said geopolitical risk 5x during today's call.

我算了一下，你在今天的電話會議上說地緣政治風險是原來的五倍。

And someone mentioned about the fact it seems in Taiwan with vaccines are getting even more political.

有人提到，在台灣，疫苗似乎變得更政治化。

I just wonder, for management, how concerned are you with politics?

我只是想知道，對管理階層來說，你對政治有多關心？

It seems the U.S. sometimes is fighting against China; China, Taiwan.

看來美國有時是在跟中國打仗，有時又是在跟中國打仗。中國、台灣。

And what things have you thought about to mitigate, if anything, such political risk?

您考慮過哪些措施來減輕（如果有的話）此類政治風險？

And also, are your customers concerned when COVID happened in Taiwan, when China from time to time threatened a war against Taiwan?

另外，當台灣發生新冠肺炎疫情、中國不時威脅對台灣發動戰爭時，你們的客戶是否擔心？

And are your customers concerned that they are so reliant on you?

您的客戶是否擔心他們如此依賴您？

Okay.

好的。

So Martin's question is about politics and geopolitical risks.

所以馬丁的問題是關於政治和地緣政治風險的。

He notes that geopolitical is talked about more and more.

他指出，人們越來越多地談論地緣政治。

His observation is that vaccines in Taiwan has become a political issue as well.

他的觀察是，台灣的疫苗也成為一個政治議題。

So he wants to know how does TSMC manage or mitigate the political risks looking at U.S., China, Taiwan relations?

所以他想知道台積電如何管理或減輕中美台關係的政治風險？

And do our customers have concerns on things such as the recent increase in COVID or the threat of invasion from China?

我們的客戶是否對最近新冠疫情的增加或來自中國的入侵威脅等事情感到擔憂？

And how does TSMC manage these risks?

台積電如何管理這些風險？

Martin, this is Mark.

馬丁，這是馬克。

Thank you for asking.

謝謝你的詢問。

First of all, the -- on the recent COVID situation in Taiwan, I think the confirmed case has dropped.

首先，關於台灣最近的新冠疫情情況，我認為確診病例已經下降。

And of course, the current -- first priority is to get the people of Taiwan get vaccinated upon variants keep coming.

當然，目前的首要任務是讓台灣民眾在變異病毒不斷出現的情況下接種疫苗。

But I'm really grateful that us and YongLin and Foxconn come together a humanitarian donation of 10 million doses of vaccine to the Taiwan government, CDC -- Taiwan's CDC and be able to vaccinate our people in Taiwan because TSMC's employees is inevitably embedded in the community of Taiwan, and that is important.

但我真的很感激我們和永林、富士康一起向台灣政府、疾管中心——台灣疾管中心人道主義捐贈了1000萬劑疫苗，並能夠為我們台灣人民接種疫苗，因為台積電的員工不可避免地融入了這個過程。

The reason -- you know this could be political in the beginning.

原因是——你知道這一開始可能是政治性的。

But at the end, we completed the contract and we did get support from all sides.

但最後我們完成了合同，也確實得到了各方的支持。

So I don't think at the end it's as political anymore.

所以我認為最終它不再是政治性的了。

Otherwise, this donation wouldn't be successful.

否則，這次捐贈就不會成功。

In a global sense, the geopolitical development is continuing.

從全球來看，地緣政治的發展仍在持續。

I think this is a challenge for every company.

我認為這對每個公司來說都是一個挑戰。

Every company's management has to deal with it.

每個公司的管理階層都必須處理這個問題。

And -- but I think in the new administration from U.S., I think the development is more predictable, more rule-based.

而且 - 但我認為在美國新政府中，我認為發展更可預測，更基於規則。

So as long as rule-based, I think it's better for every company to adopt it, too.

所以只要有規則，我認為每家公司也都採用它會更好。

So that also prompted the talk I have earlier -- given earlier that the global manufacturing footprint may need to do an adjustment for our customers.

因此，這也引發了我先前的對話——先前提到全球製造足跡可能需要為我們的客戶進行調整。

Our customers in different countries, their infrastructure, supply security -- semiconductor-related infrastructure, supply security maybe come up a higher priority, and we do that adjusted to it.

我們在不同國家的客戶、他們的基礎設施、供應安全——半導體相關的基礎設施、供應安全可能會成為更高的優先級，我們會對此進行調整。

But of course, there is the customers' needs that we are adjusting it to upon the greater geopolitical development.

但當然，我們正在根據更大的地緣政治發展來調整客戶的需求。

As to the invasion of China, let me tell you, nobody -- I mean, everybody wants to have a peaceful Taiwan Strait.

至於入侵中國，讓我告訴你，沒有人——我的意思是，每個人都希望有一個和平的台灣海峽。

And because not only -- because it is to every country's benefit, but also because of the semiconductor supply chain in Taiwan, no one wants to disrupt it.

不僅因為這對每個國家都有好處，而且因為台灣的半導體供應鏈，沒有人想破壞它。

You have a COVID -- only a COVID situation already made a major disruption for the global economy.

你遇到了新冠病毒——只有新冠病毒的情況已經對全球經濟造成了重大破壞。

And I don't think that any disability in Taiwan Strait is any country wish to make it happen.

我認為台海的任何殘疾都不是任何國家願意發生的事。

So I'm optimistic on that.

所以我對此持樂觀態度。

Thank you, Martin.

謝謝你，馬丁。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Do you have a second question, Martin?

馬丁，你還有第二個問題嗎？

Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

Can I follow up with a second one?

我可以跟進第二個嗎？

It's kind of related.

這有點相關。

You mentioned about global manufacturing.

您提到了全球製造業。

You also mentioned about the need to maintain your highest -- most of your technology in Taiwan because of the proximity to R&D.

您也提到，由於靠近研發中心，需要在台灣維持最高水準的大部分技術。

My understanding is majority of our engineers are from Taiwan.

據我了解，我們的工程師大多來自台灣。

As you go for this global manufacturing, do you -- can you talk about how you are changing, say, for example, your talent acquisition?

當您致力於全球製造業時，您能談談您正在如何改變，例如，您的人才獲取嗎？

Like how you try to get more people outside Taiwan so that maybe over time you can become more manufacturing outside Taiwan?

例如你要如何努力讓更多的人離開台灣，這樣隨著時間的推移，你可以在台灣以外的地方進行更多的製造業？

And also maybe on the Board, I mean, because when I look at the Board, it remains largely Taiwanese.

我的意思是，也許在董事會中，因為當我看到董事會時，它仍然主要是台灣人。

The recent 2 additions, one is Dr. Kung who's a minister; Yancei who's from Delta.

最近增加了兩位，一位是孔博士，他是一位部長；一位是孔博士，他是一位部長；來自 Delta 的 Yancei。

Do you see also the Board maybe changing, become more international?

您是否也認為董事會可能會發生變化，變得更加國際化？

Or maybe if I try to propose some debate, have a Mainland Chinese on the Board?

或者，如果我嘗試提出一些辯論，董事會中有一位中國大陸人嗎？

Okay.

好的。

So Martin's second question is around talent and Board composition.

所以馬丁的第二個問題是關於人才和董事會的組成。

Basically, with our expanding manufacturing footprint, he wants to know what is our strategy to attract more global talent for TSMC.

基本上，隨著我們製造業務的擴大，他想知道我們為台積電吸引更多全球人才的策略是什麼。

And his secondary question is also on the Board.

他的第二個問題也在董事會上。

His observation is that we -- the new Board members are primarily only from Taiwan.

他的觀察是，我們——新的董事會成員主要來自台灣。

So will we consider board members from other countries?

那我們會考慮來自其他國家的董事會成員嗎？

The question about talent.

關於天賦的問題。

Indeed, I think the -- we have been advocating the talent development in semiconductor field in Taiwan as well as in U.S. I think semiconductor industry talent has been underdeveloped over the past decades.

事實上，我認為——我們一直在台灣和美國倡導半導體領域的人才發展。

And today, everyone look at the semiconductor as a key economic drivers.

如今，每個人都將半導體視為關鍵的經濟驅動力。

So the talent needs to be connected with that.

因此，人才需要與此連結。

And in Taiwan, I think we have been advocating the government to set up the high-end advanced research colleges across the Taiwan major universities.

在台灣，我認為我們一直在倡導政府在台灣主要大學中設立高端高級研究學院。

In the U.S. and also President Biden talked about semiconductor human infrastructure, that is to develop the human talent in semiconductor through the vast investment of the R&D.

在美國，拜登總統也談到了半導體人力基礎設施，即透過大量的研發投入來培養半導體人才。

So this is catching up in every place.

所以這裡在每個地方都在迎頭趕上。

And particularly in Taiwan, we get very strong support from the local government to be able to continue to supply talents in Taiwan.

特別是在台灣，我們得到了當地政府非常大力的支持，能夠繼續為台灣提供人才。

As far as the Board member, yes, Delta, Yancei has joined a year ago.

至於董事會成員，是的，達美航空，Yancei 一年前就加入了。

And more recently, I think this coming shareholder meeting, we will nominate Rafael Reif, who is the President of MIT, to come to our Board.

最近，我認為在即將召開的股東大會上，我們將提名麻省理工學院校長拉斐爾·賴夫 (Rafael Reif) 加入我們的董事會。

And we hope that it will go through the blessing of our shareholders.

我們希望這能得到股東的祝福。

And that is a major increment of our corporate governance and particularly in the area of the talent development.

這是我們公司治理的重大進步，特別是在人才發展領域。

We invited chair -- Board members upon they have a very strong knowledge and experience on the corporate governance.

我們邀請了董事長－董事會成員，因為他們對公司治理有非常豐富的知識和經驗。

And that is we will continue to look for without any differentiation about nationalities.

那就是我們將繼續尋找不存在任何國籍差異的東西。

Okay.

好的。

Thank you, Chairman.

謝謝主席。

Thank you, Martin.

謝謝你，馬丁。

Yes.

是的。

The last one to ask question, Krish Sankar from Cowen and Company.

最後一個提問的是 Cowen and Company 的 Krish Sankar。

I had two of them.

我有兩個。

The first one, you spoke about investing $100 billion in CapEx over the next 3 years and how that does not include specialty process nodes like the ones in Japan.

第一個，您談到了未來 3 年在資本支出上投資 1000 億美元，以及如何不包括像日本那樣的專業工藝節點。

I'm kind of curious, can you just be more specific on how much you plan to invest in your U.S. Arizona fab or fab clusters over the next 3 years in terms of CapEx?

我有點好奇，您能否更具體地說明您計劃在未來 3 年內對美國亞利桑那州晶圓廠或晶圓廠集群投資多少資本支出？

And then I have a follow-up.

然後我有一個後續行動。

Okay.

好的。

So Krish's first question is about our investment in CapEx looking at the next 3 years.

因此，克里什的第一個問題是關於我們未來 3 年的資本支出投資。

He wants to know how much specifically we are investing in Arizona?

他想知道我們在亞利桑那州具體投資了多少？

Okay, Chris.

好吧，克里斯。

We have announced that the Arizona project will be a $12 billion project.

我們已經宣布亞利桑那州項目將是一個耗資 120 億美元的項目。

This was announced last year.

這是去年宣布的。

Got it.

知道了。

And can you just elaborate how much you plan to do it over the next 3 years?

您能否詳細說明您在未來 3 年內計劃做多少事情？

So he wants -- Krish is asking how much will we invest in Arizona over the next 3 years.

所以他想——克里什問我們未來三年將在亞利桑那州投資多少。

Yes, $12 billion.

是的，120 億美元。

Next 3.

下一個 3.

Next 3.

下一個 3.

Close to.

附近。

Well, basically, is next 3 years is about $8 billion.

嗯，基本上，未來 3 年大約是 80 億美元。

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好的。

Perfect.

完美的。

And then a quick follow-up.

然後快速跟進。

Your auto revenues was 4% of total revenue.

您的汽車收入佔總收入的 4%。

What technology node is that predominantly?

主要是哪個技術節點？

Okay.

好的。

So Krish's second question is on automotive.

克里什的第二個問題是關於汽車的。

It was 4% of our revenue.

這是我們收入的 4%。

What particular specific nodes is automotive using?

汽車使用哪些具體節點？

Krish, I think I have mentioned that automotive MCU is the biggest one that we have and it's in 55-, 40- and 28-nanometer with the majority still in 55 and 40.

Krish，我想我已經提到過，汽車 MCU 是我們擁有的最大的 MCU，它採用 55 奈米、40 奈米和 28 奈米，其中大多數仍採用 55 奈米和 40 奈米。

And in the next 2 to 3 years, it will be moved to 28-nanometer.

並且在未來2到3年內，將會轉向28奈米。

That's in our current plan, and we are working with our customers on that.

這是我們目前的計劃，我們正在與客戶合作。

Thank you, C.C. Thank you, Krish.

謝謝你，C.C.謝謝你，克里什。

All right.

好的。

This concludes our Q&A session.

我們的問答環節到此結束。

Before we conclude today's conference, please be advised that the replay of the conference will be accessible within 4 hours from now.

在我們結束今天的會議之前，請注意，會議重播將在 4 小時內提供。

And the transcript will become available 24 hours from now.

成績單將於 24 小時後提供。

Both of these, which will be available through TSMC's website at www.tsmc.com.

這兩項內容都可以透過台積電的網站 www.tsmc.com 取得。

So thank you for joining us today.

感謝您今天加入我們。

We hope everyone continues to stay safe and healthy, and we hope you will join us again next quarter.

我們希望每個人都繼續保持安全和健康，並希望您在下個季度再次加入我們。

Thank you, and have a good day or good evening.

謝謝，祝您有美好的一天或晚上好。