Sea Ltd (SE) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning and good evening to all, and welcome to the Sea Limited Third Quarter 2023 Results Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) And finally, I would like to advise all participants that this call is being recorded.

大家早安、晚上好，歡迎參加 Sea Limited 2023 年第三季業績電話會議。 （操作員說明）最後，我想告知所有參與者，本次通話正在錄音。

Thank you. I'd now like to welcome Ms. Min Ju Song to begin the conference call. Please go ahead.

謝謝。現在我歡迎宋敏菊女士開始電話會議。請繼續。

Thank you. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Sea's 2023 Third Quarter Earnings Conference Call. I'm Min Ju Song from Sea's Group Chief Corporate Officer's Office.

謝謝。大家好，歡迎參加Sea 2023年第三季財報電話會議。我是 Sea's 集團首席企業長辦公室的 Min Ju Song。

Before we continue, I would like to remind you that we may make forward-looking statements, which are inherently subject to risks and uncertainties and may not be realized in the future for various reasons as stated in our press release. Also, this call includes the discussion of certain non-GAAP financial measures, such as adjusted EBITDA. We believe these measures can enhance our investors' understanding of the actual cash flows of our major businesses when used as a complement to our GAAP disclosures. For a discussion of the use of non-GAAP financial measures and reconciliation with the closest GAAP measures, please refer to the section on non-GAAP financial measures in our press release.

在我們繼續之前，我想提醒您，我們可能會做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述本身就存在風險和不確定性，並且可能由於我們新聞稿中所述的各種原因而無法實現未來。此外，本次電話會議也討論了某些非公認會計準則財務指標，例如調整後的 EBITDA。我們相信，這些措施可以增強投資者對我們主要業務實際現金流量的理解，作為我們公認會計準則揭露的補充。有關非 GAAP 財務指標的使用以及與最接近的 GAAP 指標的調整的討論，請參閱我們新聞稿中有關非 GAAP 財務指標的部分。

I have with me Sea's Chairman and Group Chief Executive Officer, Forrest Li; Group President, C Feng; Group Chief Financial Officer, Tony Hou; and Group Chief Corporate Officer, Yanjun Wang. Our management will share strategy and business updates, operating highlights and financial performance for the third quarter of 2023. This will be followed by a Q&A session, in which we welcome any questions you have. With that, let me turn the call over to Forrest.

與我同行的還有 Sea 董事長兼集團執行長 Forrest Li；集團總裁C Feng；集團財務長侯先生；以及集團執行長王彥軍。我們的管理層將分享 2023 年第三季的策略和業務更新、營運亮點和財務業績。隨後將進行問答環節，歡迎您提出任何問題。現在，讓我把電話轉給福雷斯特。

Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining today's call. At our last earnings call, we shared that we would accelerate investments in e-commerce. In the past, our e-commerce business has made some significant shift in operational focus to adapt to major business environment changes. Before diving into the details of the third quarter results, I would like to first share how the thinking behind each shift has been underpinned by our long-term view of the business.

大家好，感謝您參加今天的電話會議。在上次財報電話會議上，我們表示將加速對電子商務的投資。過去，我們的電子商務業務在營運重點上進行了一些重大轉變，以適應重大的商業環境變化。在深入探討第三季業績的細節之前，我想先分享一下每次轉變背後的思維是如何以我們對業務的長期看法為基礎的。

Our strategy for e-commerce is driven by the principle that maximizing the long-term profitability of the business will generate the greatest returns to our shareholders in the long run, and maximizing long-term profitability requires scale and strong market leadership. To achieve this long-term objective, we look at 3 key operational factors: growth, current profitability and market share gain. While all are important and positively correlated in the long run, near-term focus on one can create trade-offs for another.

我們的電子商務策略的驅動原則是，從長遠來看，業務長期獲利能力最大化將為股東帶來最大回報，而長期獲利能力最大化需要規模和強大的市場領導力。為了實現這一長期目標，我們著眼於 3 個關鍵營運因素：成長、當前獲利能力和市場佔有率增益。雖然從長遠來看，所有這些都很重要且呈正相關，但短期對其中一項的關注可能會為另一項帶來權衡。

As business conditions change, sometimes rapidly, we need to decide which factor to prioritize for that periods. During the pandemic, we focused on growth first, ramping up rapidly to meet surging demand for e-commerce despite the great operational difficulties created by lockdowns. This allowed us to achieve significant scale and strong market leadership when growth was very efficient.

隨著業務條件的變化（有時變化很快），我們需要決定在該時期優先考慮哪個因素。疫情期間，我們首先關注成長，儘管封鎖造成了巨大的營運困難，但我們仍然迅速擴大規模，以滿足不斷增長的電子商務需求。這使我們能夠在成長非常高效的情況下實現顯著的規模和強大的市場領導地位。

Subsequently, capital became very expensive and less available. So we made a rapid turn to achieve immediate profitability for Shopee as the first priority, while sustaining the platform's scale and market leadership. In both cases, we believe we made the right decisions in response to the shifting business environment.

隨後，資本變得非常昂貴且難以取得。因此，我們迅速做出轉變，將立即實現 Shopee 盈利作為首要任務，同時保持平台的規模和市場領先地位。在這兩種情況下，我們相信我們針對不斷變化的商業環境做出了正確的決定。

As we focus on long-term profitability and adapt to changes in the business environment, some short-term fluctuation in our results is inevitable. However, our demonstrated ability to adapt quickly and execute major transitions effectively is a core strength for the long-term success of our business. We are now deploying the strength to realize the next shift in our operational focus in e-commerce. In this period, we will prioritize investing in the business to increase our market share and further strengthening our market leadership.

由於我們著眼於長期獲利能力，適應經營環境的變化，業績短期波動在所難免。然而，我們所展現的快速適應和有效執行重大轉型的能力是我們業務長期成功的核心優勢。我們現在正在部署力量，實現電子商務營運重點的下一個轉變。在此期間，我們將優先投資該業務，以增加我們的市場份額，並進一步加強我們的市場領導地位。

We made this decision in view of 3 recent developments. First, our move to self-sufficiency and profitability has significantly improved both our cash reserves and operational efficiency. Our group cash position has increased by around $600 million from a year ago to more than $7.9 billion at the end of the third quarter. This puts us in a strong position to pursue more competitive and growth-focused strategies, while maintaining financial discipline and a strong balance sheet over the long run.

我們做出這項決定是考慮到最近的 3 個事態發展。首先，我們向自給自足和盈利的轉變顯著提高了我們的現金儲備和營運效率。截至第三季末，我們集團的現金部位較去年同期增加了約 6 億美元，達到 79 億美元以上。這使我們處於有利地位，可以追求更具競爭力和以成長為重點的策略，同時從長遠來看保持財務紀律和強大的資產負債表。

Second, the entrance of new players has intensified competition in our markets. Competition may accelerate market share consolidation, and when the markets stabilize, each remaining player will have sustainable profitability. Investing in market share gain now will position us better with even stronger market leadership when that happens. We strive in the competitive environment. We competed aggressively and effectively in our market for years to emerge as the clear market leader from an underdog position. We now have scale, a deep understanding of our markets and a strong localized execution across diverse geographies. This gives us a wide competitive moat, and we intend to grow it further.

其次，新參與者的進入加劇了市場競爭。競爭可能會加速市場佔有率的整合，當市場穩定時，剩下的每個參與者都將擁有可持續的獲利能力。現在投資於市場份額的成長將使我們處於更好的位置，在這種情況發生時獲得更強大的市場領導地位。我們在競爭激烈的環境中努力奮鬥。多年來，我們在市場上積極有效地競爭，從失敗者的地位中脫穎而出，成為明顯的市場領導者。我們現在擁有規模、對市場的深入了解以及跨不同地區的強大本地化執行力。這為我們提供了廣泛的競爭護城河，我們打算進一步擴大它。

Third, live streaming has become increasingly popular among sellers, buyers and creators in our markets. This tailwind gives us a very good opportunity to build our e-commerce content ecosystem efficiently. We believe live streaming e-commerce will become a sizable and profitable part of our platform and extend our long-term growth potential.

第三，直播在我們市場的賣家、買家和創作者中越來越受歡迎。這輛順風車為我們提供了一個非常好的機會來有效地建立我們的電子商務內容生態系統。我們相信直播電子商務將成為我們平台的一個可觀且有利可圖的部分，並擴展我們的長期成長潛力。

I want to emphasize that in making investment decisions, we are committed to maintaining a strong cash position, not relying on external funding and investing within our means at the time and the pace of our choosing. At the same time, given that e-commerce penetration remains low in most of our markets, we, as the market leader, have a responsibility to help grow the whole e-commerce ecosystem. Shopee will remain committed to doing so in a healthy and sustainable way, and driving value creation for all stakeholders.

我想強調的是，在做出投資決策時，我們致力於保持強勁的現金狀況，不依賴外部資金，並根據我們選擇的時間和節奏進行投資。同時，鑑於我們大多數市場的電子商務滲透率仍然較低，作為市場領導者，我們有責任協助發展整個電子商務生態系統。 Shopee 將繼續致力於以健康和永續的方式實現這一目標，並推動為所有利害關係人創造價值。

I hope that this brief sharing on the thinking behind our decision has been helpful. Being nimble and, therefore, able to do the right thing at the right time remains our core strength and a competitive advantage for our business.

我希望關於我們決定背後的想法的簡短分享對您有所幫助。靈活，因此能夠在正確的時間做正確的事情仍然是我們的核心優勢和我們業務的競爭優勢。

With that, I will invite Yanjun to discuss each business segment in more detail.

接下來，我將邀請嚴軍詳細討論各個業務板塊。

Thank you, Forrest. Let me now share more details on the recent performance of each business segments, beginning with e-commerce. Just now, Forrest discussed the long-term objectives of our investments in e-commerce. For the immediate period, we assess the effectiveness of our investments by looking at how our market leadership as well as the scale and the strength of our e-commerce content ecosystem has been trending. On those fronts, we made strong progress in the past quarter.

謝謝你，福雷斯特。現在讓我詳細介紹一下各個業務部門近期的表現，首先是電子商務。剛才，Forrest 討論了我們投資電子商務的長期目標。就近期而言，我們透過觀察我們的市場領導地位以及電子商務內容生態系統的規模和實力的趨勢來評估我們投資的有效性。在這些方面，我們在上個季度取得了巨大進展。

In the third quarter, growth in Shopee's users, gross orders and GMV accelerated sequentially. We saw average monthly active buyers growing 11% quarter-on-quarter with increased order frequency and improved buyer retention. As a result, our gross orders and GMV achieved 24% and 11% sequential growth, respectively, further increasing our market share. We also saw a material improvement in NPS scores broadly across the market quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year. We believe this to be a good early indication of the effectiveness of our investments.

第三季度，Shopee用戶數、總訂單數和GMV成長率環比加速。我們發現，隨著訂單頻率的增加和買家保留率的提高，每月平均活躍買家數量較上季增加 11%。結果，我們的總訂單和 GMV 分別實現了 24% 和 11% 的環比增長，進一步提高了我們的市場份額。我們也看到整個市場的 NPS 分數環比和同比都有實質改善。我們相信這是我們投資有效性的良好早期跡象。

Another key driver of our solid growth during the third quarter was the ramp-up of Shopee Live. During this period, we have made a strong push into e-commerce live streaming and increased collaborations with a growing ecosystem of content creators and live streaming sellers. We have also successfully acquired many new buyers and deepened our engagement with existing buyers. For example, in Indonesia, 1 out of 5 daily active users watched live streaming in October on average.

第三季我們穩健成長的另一個關鍵驅動力是 Shopee Live 的成長。在此期間，我們大力推動電商直播，並加強與不斷成長的內容創作者和直播賣家生態系統的合作。我們也成功地獲得了許多新買家，並加深了與現有買家的接觸。例如，在印度尼西亞，平均每 5 個日活躍用戶中就有 1 個在 10 月觀看了直播。

With our efforts to help our sellers and creators, we saw a significant increase in their participation in Shopee Live. Our number of average daily unique streamers, total daily hour streamed and the number of daily stream sessions for October all grew by more than 3x compared to June. Our streamers are also becoming more engaged, with the average stream duration per streamer increasing by more than 1/3 during the same period.

透過我們努力幫助賣家和創作者，我們看到他們對 Shopee Live 的參與度顯著增加。與 6 月相比，我們 10 月的平均每日獨立主播數量、每日直播總小時數以及每日直播會話數均增長了 3 倍以上。我們的主播也變得更加投入，每位主播的平均直播時間在同一時期增加了 1/3 以上。

In Southeast Asia, our average daily orders from live streaming already reached more than 10% of the total order volume for October.

在東南亞，我們的直播日均訂單量已達到10月總訂單量的10%以上。

For our investments in live streaming, we have a targeted focus on key categories such as fashion and health and beauty. These categories tend to benefit more from this format of user engagement and tend to enjoy higher margins. This further strengthened our overall market leadership in these key marketplace categories. Moreover, we have been focused on investment efficiency and driven fast improvement in unit economics. This is well in line with our long-term view that live streaming e-commerce can be both a meaningful part of our platform and profitable.

對於直播的投資，我們有針對性地關注時尚、健康和美容等關鍵類別。這些類別往往從這種用戶參與形式中受益更多，並且往往享有更高的利潤。這進一步加強了我們在這些關鍵市場類別中的整體市場領導地位。此外，我們也注重投資效率，推動單位經濟效益快速提升。這非常符合我們的長期觀點，即直播電子商務既可以成為我們平台的重要組成部分，又可以獲利。

As shared before, we are consistently focused on reducing cost to serve for our e-commerce ecosystem. We made strong progress in continuing to drive down logistics costs while improving user experience. Our platform logistics cost per order for our Asian markets decreased by 17% year-on-year in the third quarter. Decreases in logistics costs also contributed to the year-on-year decline in our value-added services revenue. We believe this to be an example of scale economics shift, where we drive down logistics costs with scale and pass the benefit of reduced shipping costs to our sellers and buyers. This business model also served to strengthen the competitive moat of our platform.

如同先前所分享的，我們始終致力於降低電子商務生態系統的服務成本。我們在持續降低物流成本、改善使用者體驗方面取得了巨大進展。第三季我們亞洲市場每單訂單的平台物流成本較去年同期下降17%。物流成本下降也導致增值服務收入較去年同期下降。我們認為這是規模經濟轉變的一個例子，我們透過規模來降低物流成本，並將運輸成本降低的好處傳遞給我們的賣家和買家。這種商業模式也增強了我們平台的競爭優勢。

As we scale the Shopee platform, we also continue to expand the coverage of our logistics network across all markets to reach more sellers and buyers. This will be done through better routing for more efficient and faster delivery, further expanding our network of sorting centers and improving our last-mile coverage.

隨著我們擴大 Shopee 平台的規模，我們也繼續擴大我們的物流網路在所有市場的覆蓋範圍，以覆蓋更多的賣家和買家。這將透過更好的路線來實現更有效率、更快速的交付，進一步擴大我們的分類中心網路並改善我們的最後一哩程覆蓋範圍。

During the third quarter, Brazil continued to enjoy strong growth. At the same time, our unit economics in Brazil improved. We will continue to invest in category expansion and user acquisition in this market, and we will take a balanced approach of investing in growth while driving improvements in operational efficiency, especially in logistics. Our results in Brazil for the quarter speak to our success on both fronts. While we believe we already achieved sufficient scale and cost efficiency to be profitable in Brazil, our focus remains on capturing the growth opportunity there.

第三季度，巴西持續保持強勁成長。同時，我們在巴西的單位經濟效益有所改善。我們將繼續投資於這個市場的品類擴張和用戶獲取，我們將採取平衡的方式，在投資成長的同時推動營運效率的提高，特別是在物流方面。我們本季在巴西的業績證明了我們在這兩方面的成功。雖然我們相信我們已經實現了足夠的規模和成本效率，可以在巴西實現盈利，但我們的重點仍然是抓住那裡的成長機會。

Looking into the fourth quarter, we will continue to invest in the holiday shopping season, which we believe is a good time to acquire users, gain market share and strengthen our content ecosystem.

展望第四季度，我們將繼續投資假期購物季，我們認為這是獲取用戶、獲得市場份額和加強內容生態系統的好時機。

Moving on to digital entertainment. In the third quarter, Garena's bookings grew sequentially, while quarterly active users and adjusted EBITDA remained stable quarter-on-quarter. We view these results positively as this was achieved despite schools reopening across a number of our key markets during the quarter. We are happy to see that Free Fire maintain stable trends across both user and monetization metrics. Many of our initiatives around improving the user experience this year, such as reducing loading time, have shown continued success.

轉向數位娛樂。第三季度，Garena 的預訂量較上季成長，而季度活躍用戶和調整後 EBITDA 則是環比保持​​穩定。我們對這些結果持積極態度，因為儘管本季度我們的許多主要市場的學校重新開放，但還是取得了這一成績。我們很高興看到《Free Fire》在用戶和貨幣化指標方面都保持穩定的趨勢。今年我們圍繞著改善用戶體驗的許多舉措（例如減少加載時間）持續取得成功。

We have also further deepened user engagement. For example, we recently revamped Free Fire's (inaudible) system to enhance the social experience for our players. With all these efforts, we saw a higher revival of churn to users and better user retention. Indeed, Free Fire was the most downloaded mobile game in the third quarter globally according to Sensor Tower.

我們也進一步加深了用戶參與度。例如，我們最近改進了《Free Fire》的（聽不清楚）系統，以增強玩家的社交體驗。透過所有這些努力，我們看到了用戶流失率的增加和用戶保留率的提高。事實上，根據 Sensor Tower 的數據，《Free Fire》是第三季全球下載次數最多的手機遊戲。

We are also pleased to see healthy trends for our portfolio of published games. We added fresh, exciting content and enhanced the user experience for these games. New content on Arena of Valor received very positive user feedback, resulting in a new peak of quarterly active users for the game. Another of our published game, Call of Duty: Mobile, achieved its highest quarterly bookings. This was a result of both our continued efforts to improve the game experience for players through better optimization and successful content collaboration. We will continue to assess new development and publishing opportunities for Garena.

我們也很高興看到我們已發行遊戲組合的健康趨勢。我們添加了新鮮、令人興奮的內容，並增強了這些遊戲的使用者體驗。 《Arena of Valor》的新內容獲得了非常積極的用戶回饋，導致該遊戲的季度活躍用戶達到了新的峰值。我們發布的另一款遊戲《決勝時刻：移動》取得了最高的季度預訂量。這是我們不斷努力透過更好的優化和成功的內容協作來改善玩家遊戲體驗的結果。我們將繼續評估 Garena 的新開發和發布機會。

Lastly, on our digital financial services business. In the third quarter, SeaMoney delivered strong revenue and profit growth, mainly driven of our credit business which grew steadily quarter-on-quarter. As of the end of the third quarter, we had a totals' credit portfolio of $2.9 billion, growing 5% sequentially. The portfolio included $2.4 billion of gross loans receivable on our balance sheet. The remaining approximately $0.5 billion of principal amount of loans outstanding were from channel rearrangements, which is lending by other financial institutions on our platform.

最後，關於我們的數位金融服務業務。第三季度，SeaMoney 實現了強勁的收入和利潤成長，主要得益於我們的信貸業務環比穩定成長。截至第三季末，我們的信貸投資組合總額為 29 億美元，季增 5%。該投資組合包括我們資產負債表上 24 億美元的應收貸款總額。剩餘約 5 億美元的未償還貸款本金來自通路重組，即我們平台上其他金融機構的貸款。

In terms of credit product type, $1.4 billion in the total credit portfolio were as pay later consumption loans, which are used to pay for transactions on or off the Shopee platform. The remaining balance mostly consisted of cash loans to Shopee buyers and sellers.

從信貸產品類型來看，信貸組合總額中的14億美元為先付消費貸款，用於支付Shopee平台內外的交易。剩餘餘額主要是向 Shopee 買家和賣家提供的現金貸款。

The quality of our loan book stayed healthy. Loans past due by more than 30 days and 90 days as a percentage of the gross loans receivable on our balance sheet was 5.2% and 1.6%, respectively, improving quarter-on-quarter. We also continue to expand the funding sources. In fact, the majority of the gross loans receivable on our balance sheet were funded by sources such as deposits in our banks and asset-backed lending from third-party financial institutions. We will continue to further diversify our credit portfolio across markets and products, both on and off Shopee platform and optimize our sources funding to improve costs and diversify risk.

我們的貸款簿品質保持健康。逾期30天以上及90天以上貸款佔資產負債表應收貸款總額的比例分別為5.2%及1.6%，較上季有所改善。我們也不斷擴大資金來源。事實上，我們資產負債表上的大部分應收貸款總額的資金來源包括銀行存款和第三方金融機構的資產抵押貸款。我們將繼續在 Shopee 平台內外的市場和產品上進一步實現信貸組合多元化，並優化我們的資金來源，以降低成本並分散風險。

Our digital bank offerings have made good progress during the quarter. For example, our banks in Indonesia, the Philippines and Singapore have seen strong user adoption of the direct debit services, where buyers can make payments on Shopee directly from their accounts with our banks. The service has driven an acceleration in user acquisition for our banks and improved transactional experience on Shopee. This is also another example of our strong ecosystem synergies.

我們的數位銀行產品在本季取得了良好進展。例如，我們在印尼、菲律賓和新加坡的銀行已經看到大量用戶採用直接扣款服務，買家可以直接從他們在我們銀行的帳戶在 Shopee 上付款。該服務加速了我們銀行的用戶獲取，並改善了 Shopee 的交易體驗。這也是我們強大的生態系統綜效的另一個例子。

To sum up, SeaMoney has become an increasingly important pillar of our core businesses. It is contributing meaningfully towards both our top line and bottom line. It has enjoyed a healthy and improving risk profile and strong ecosystem synergies. On SeaMoney, we will continue to strive to develop more comprehensive products and services to meet the financial needs of our users across the market.

綜上所述，SeaMoney已經成為我們核心業務日益重要的支柱。它對我們的營收和利潤都做出了有意義的貢獻。它享有健康且不斷改善的風險狀況和強大的生態系統協同效應。在SeaMoney上，我們將繼續努力開發更全面的產品和服務，以滿足整個市場用戶的金融需求。

With that, I will invite Tony to discuss our financials.

接下來，我將邀請托尼討論我們的財務狀況。

Thank you, Yanjun, and thanks to everyone for joining the call. We have included detailed financial schedules together with the responding management analysis in today's press release. So I will focus my comments on the key metrics.

謝謝嚴軍，也謝謝大家加入我們的電話會議。我們在今天的新聞稿中提供了詳細的財務計劃以及相應的管理分析。因此，我將把我的評論集中在關鍵指標上。

For Sea overall, total GAAP revenue increased 5% year-on-year to $3.3 billion. This was primarily driven by the improved monetization in our e-commerce and digital financial services businesses. Our group total adjusted EBITDA was $35 million compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $358 million in the third quarter of 2022. On e-commerce, our third quarter GAAP revenue of $2.2 billion included GAAP marketplace revenue of $1.9 million, up 18% year-on-year, and GAAP total revenue of $0.3 billion.

Sea 整體 GAAP 總營收年增 5%，達到 33 億美元。這主要是由於我們的電子商務和數位金融服務業務的貨幣化改善。我們集團調整後的EBITDA 總額為3,500 萬美元，而2022 年第三季調整後的EBITDA 虧損為3.58 億美元。在電子商務方面，我們第三季的GAAP 營收為22 億美元，其中GAAP 市場營收為190 萬美元，年增18%。以 GAAP 計算的年比總收入為 3 億美元。

Within GAAP marketplace revenue, core marketplace revenue, mainly consisting of transaction-based fees and advertising revenues, was $1.3 billion, up 32% year-on-year as a result of both increases in advertisement uptake by sellers on our platform and commission rates. Value-added services revenue, mainly consisting of revenues related to logistic services, was $0.6 billion, down 4% year-on-year.

在 GAAP 市場收入中，核心市場收入（主要包括基於交易的費用和廣告收入）為 13 億美元，年增 32%，這得益於我們平台上賣家的廣告投放量和佣金率的增加。加值服務收入（主要包括物流服務相關收入）為6億美元，較去年同期下降4%。

E-commerce adjusted EBITDA loss was $346 million in the third quarter of 2023 compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $496 million in the third quarter of 2022. For Asia markets, we had an adjusted EBITDA loss of $306 million during the quarter compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $217 million in the third quarter of 2022. In our other markets, the adjusted EBITDA loss was $40 million, narrowing meaningfully from last year when losses were $279 million. Contribution margin loss per order in Brazil improved by 91% year-on-year to reach $0.10, reflecting better monetization and higher efficiency in our ecosystem.

2023 年第三季電子商務調整後EBITDA 損失為3.46 億美元，而2022 年第三季調整後EBITDA 損失為4.96 億美元。對於亞洲市場，本季調整後EBITDA 損失為3.06 億美元，而2022 年第第三季調整後 EBITDA 虧損為3.06 億美元。2022 年第三季調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 2.17 億美元。在我們的其他市場，調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 4,000 萬美元，較去年虧損 2.79 億美元大幅收窄。巴西每個訂單的邊際貢獻損失年減 91%，達到 0.10 美元，反映出我們生態系統的貨幣化效果更好，效率更高。

Digital entertainment bookings were $448 million, and GAAP revenue was $592 million. Adjusted EBITDA was $234 million compared to $239 million in the second quarter of 2023. Digital financial services GAAP revenue was up by 37% year-on-year to $446 million. Adjusted EBITDA was $166 million in the third quarter of 2023 compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $68 million in the third quarter of 2022. We recognized a net nonoperating income of $46 million in the third quarter of 2023 compared to a net nonoperating loss of $9 million in the third quarter of 2022. The year-on-year improvement was mainly due to higher interest income in the third quarter of 2023.

數位娛樂預訂量為 4.48 億美元，GAAP 收入為 5.92 億美元。調整後 EBITDA 為 2.34 億美元，而 2023 年第二季為 2.39 億美元。數位金融服務 GAAP 營收年增 37%，達到 4.46 億美元。 2023 年第三季調整後EBITDA 為1.66 億美元，而2022 年第三季調整後EBITDA 虧損為6,800 萬美元。我們在2023 年第三季確認非營業收入淨額為4,600 萬美元，而非營業淨虧損為9 美元2022年第三季的利息收入為100萬元。年比改善主要是由於2023年第三季利息收入增加。

We had a net income tax expense of $62 million in the third quarter of 2023 compared to a net income tax expense of $65 million in the third quarter of 2022. As a result, net loss was $144 million in the third quarter of 2023 as compared to net loss of $569 million in the third quarter of 2022.

我們2023 年第三季的淨所得稅費用為6,200 萬美元，而2022 年第三季的淨所得稅費用為6,500 萬美元。因此，2023 年第三季的淨虧損為1.44 億美元，而2022 年第三季度的淨虧損為1.44 億美元。2022 年第三季淨虧損 5.69 億美元。

With that, let me turn the call to Min Ju.

那麼，讓我把電話轉給敏珠。

Thank you, Forrest, Yanjun and Tony. We are now ready to open the call to questions.

謝謝福雷斯特、延軍和東尼。我們現在準備開始提問。

(Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from us Piyush Choudhary from HSBC.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自匯豐銀行的 Piyush Choudhary。

Yes, three questions. Firstly, in e-commerce, can you discuss how long we may continue to be loss making for Shopee? And what is the specific market share level? Or what are the KPIs Shopee may be aiming to achieve before spending starts to normalize? In the digital entertainment segment, what led to quarter-on-quarter softness in pay users despite of new game launch? And any insights on the outlook for the pay user base? And lastly, in the DFS segment, can you talk about the outlook for the lending growth? Is there a scope for increasing lending user penetration? Or will it grow in line with Shopee GMV?

是的，三個問題。首先，在電商方面，您能談談我們Shopee的虧損還會持續多久嗎？而具體的市佔率水準是多少呢？或者，在支出開始正常化之前，Shopee 可能希望實現哪些 KPI？在數位娛樂領域，儘管推出了新遊戲，但什麼導致付費用戶環比疲軟？對付費用戶群的前景有什麼見解嗎？最後，在 DFS 領域，您能談談貸款成長的前景嗎？借貸用戶滲透率是否還有提升空間？還是會隨著Shopee GMV的成長而成長？

Thank you. I will take the e-commerce question first. Regarding the profitability for e-commerce, as we have demonstrated in the past few quarters, we have the capability to turn differences to breakeven quickly any time if we want to. However, as Forrest shared before, to maximize our long-term profitability, we will keep our organization nimble and flexible and adjust our operations based on the dynamic of the market conditions. For example, we look at both the growth of the market, we look at the profitability for the current quarters. We also look at the market share dynamics in the market.

謝謝。我先回答電子商務問題。關於電子商務的獲利能力，正如我們在過去幾季所證明的那樣，如果我們願意，我們有能力隨時迅速扭轉差異以實現盈虧平衡。然而，正如Forrest先前分享的那樣，為了最大限度地提高我們的長期獲利能力，我們將保持組織的敏捷性和靈活性，並根據市場狀況的動態調整我們的營運。例如，我們既關注市場的成長，也關注當季的獲利能力。我們也關注市場的市佔率動態。

In terms of investment plan, we look at both the general investment efficiencies and also the specific growth opportunities in each of the markets. For example, if you look at the general investment efficiency, we look at -- when we put some investment in the market, we see the returns we wanted. Do we see market share gain, for example, with the very very good economics compared to our competitors in the market. For the specific opportunity in our markets, one of the examples we mentioned earlier in the call was the content (inaudible) (20:34)building, the live stream opportunity, in particular, where we see a very good time for us to invest to grow this part of the businesses at this particular time.

在投資計畫方面，我們既關注整體投資效率，也關注每個市場的具體成長機會。例如，如果你看一下整體投資效率，我們就會看到——當我們在市場上進行一些投資時，我們會看到我們想要的回報。例如，與市場上的競爭對手相比，我們是否會看到市場佔有率的成長，因為其經濟效益非常好。對於我們市場中的特定機會，我們之前在電話會議中提到的例子之一是內容（聽不清楚）（20:34）建設，特別是直播機會，我們認為這是我們投資的一個非常好的時機在這個特定的時間發展這部分業務。

We target to invest within our means, just to emphasize on that again. We would like to maintain our strong cash position at all times and not rely on the external fundings. It's also important to note that if we look at our investment efficiencies in the past few months, I think we have the quarter number, as we shared by Yanjun and Tony earlier. But if you look at month-to-month, we do see that it is improving month-to-month. If we look at the trend, we see a clear trend for Shopee to breakeven, while achieving our market share and content acquisition building goals. There are many things we look at. Right? Market share is one KPI, of course. But there are many other things, for example, how is our growth of our user base, how's the growth of our time spend, of our apps, our MAU, DAUs, and, of course, how much profitability that we achieved during the month. All these are important KPIs to look at rather than looking at market share only. Thank you.

我們的目標是量入為出，只是再次強調這一點。我們希望始終保持強勁的現金狀況，而不是依賴外部資金。同樣重要的是要注意，如果我們看看過去幾個月的投資效率，我認為我們有季度數字，正如我們早些時候由 Yanjun 和 Tony 分享的那樣。但如果你逐月查看，我們確實發現它正在逐月改善。如果我們觀察趨勢，我們會發現 Shopee 有明顯的損益平衡趨勢，同時實現了我們的市場份額和內容獲取建立目標。我們關注的事情很多。正確的？當然，市佔率是一項 KPI。但還有很多其他的事情，例如，我們的用戶群的成長情況如何，我們的時間花費、我們的應用程式、我們的MAU、DAU 的成長情況如何，當然還有我們在這個月實現了多少盈利能力。所有這些都是需要關注的重要關鍵績效指標，而不僅僅是關注市場佔有率。謝謝。

Regarding the question on a Q-on-Q softness in users. I think that this is actually to us some early indication of seasonality we start to see in the game performance. And when we start to see seasonality it's also usually an early indication of our stability in the game performance. That's why we do not see it as a negative sign. We also mentioned on the call that in Q3, we saw a lot of school reopening and there are also less holidays, so that does affect the user engagement. But overall, we are very happy to see an improvement in user retention and also a reengagement of change users, as I mentioned earlier.

關於使用者 Q-on-Q 軟度的問題。我認為這實際上對我們來說是我們開始在遊戲表現中看到的一些季節性的早期跡象。當我們開始看到季節性時，這通常也是我們遊戲表現穩定性的早期跡象。這就是為什麼我們不認為這是一個負面訊號。我們也在電話中提到，在第三季度，我們看到很多學校重新開放，假期也較少，所以這確實影響了用戶的參與度。但總的來說，我們很高興看到用戶保留率的提高以及變更用戶的重新參與，正如我之前提到的。

On the last question on the credits for DFS. In general, we do see both a possibility of lending growth on the GMV of Shopee and the penetration of credit in Shopee. The -- of course, that depends on quarter-on-quarter, depends on the risk profile we want to achieve and the growth that we want to control. But in general, the growth on both the Shopee GMV and penetration .On top of that, just want to emphasize that our credit not only to Shopee ecosystem, we do have a good growth on the credit portfolio outside of Shopee ecosystem. For example, the ShopeePay channels off-line, we do see a good penetration for credit on the offline for ShopeePay channel as well. We do also have other scenario we are developing over time. Thank you.

關於DFS的最後一個問題。總體而言，我們確實看到了 Shopee 的 GMV 貸款成長的可能性以及 Shopee 的信貸滲透率。當然，這取決於季度環比，取決於我們想要實現的風險狀況以及我們想要控制的成長。但總的來說，Shopee GMV 和滲透率都在增長。最重要的是，我想強調的是，我們的信用不僅限於Shopee 生態系統，我們在Shopee 生態系統之外的信用組合也確實有良好的增長。例如，ShopeePay 線下管道，我們確實看到 ShopeePay 管道的離線信用滲透率也很好。隨著時間的推移，我們也正在開發其他場景。謝謝。

Our next question comes from Pang Vitt from Goldman Sachs.

我們的下一個問題來自高盛的 Pang Vitt。

Three questions from me. Number one, for e-commerce. Can you discuss where Shopee investment went into in third quarter? And whether you achieved the outcome you wanted, what are your considerations on spending and GMV growth target for fourth quarter, especially considering some of the recent regulatory changes we see in Indonesia? That's question number one. Question number two, regarding gaming. Can you discuss the latest development with regards to right of first refusal agreement with Tencent that of course will expire this month? Has it automatically renewed? And how would that impact user pipeline? That's two.

我的三個問題。第一，電子商務。能談談第三季Shopee投資的投向嗎？無論您是否達到了想要的結果，您對第四季度的支出和 GMV 成長目標有何考慮，特別是考慮到我們最近在印尼看到的一些監管變化？這是第一個問題。第二個問題，關於遊戲。您能否討論一下與騰訊簽訂的優先購買權協議的最新進展，該協議當然將於本月到期？是不是自動續訂了？這將如何影響用戶頻道？那是兩個。

And number three, for the fintech segment. Can you discuss about the credit quality of your loan book. We continue to see credit loss provisioning trending better every quarter. Will this be your new run rate? Or how should we think of this margin of this business in the long term?

第三，金融科技領域。您能討論一下您的貸款簿的信用品質嗎？我們繼續看到信用損失撥備每季都呈現更好的趨勢。這會是您的新運行率嗎？或者從長遠來看我們應該如何看待這項業務的利潤率？

I think for the first question about the Q3 investment, there are 2 main areas that we're investing on. Number one, to grow our market share, especially in the core categories like fashion and health and beauty. The second area we're investing on is to capture the market opportunity to grow the content ecosystem, especially with the live stream first. As Forrest shared earlier, we always balance between the growth, profitability and market share. We believe that this is the right time to invest in terms of looking at the market share growth. We do see great traction in our investments reflected from the market share gains even with the better unit economic compared to our regional competitors.

我認為對於第三季投資的第一個問題，我們投資的主要領域有兩個。第一，擴大我們的市場份額，特別是在時尚、健康和美容等核心類別。我們投資的第二個領域是抓住發展內容生態系統的市場機會，尤其是直播。正如 Forrest 之前分享的那樣，我們始終在成長、獲利能力和市場佔有率之間取得平衡。我們認為，從市佔率成長的角度來看，現在是投資的最佳時機。我們確實看到，即使單位經濟效益比我們的區域競爭對手更好，市場份額的成長也反映出我們投資的巨大吸引力。

On the content side, we believe this can be a possible and also very [insightful] businesses for us over time. If you look at the timing, as shared in the previous answers, we do see this is a good opportunity in terms of time -- window of opportunity for us to capture the market, as we have been a lot more educated by having investments from various parties in the past year. For example, the viewers who understand the concept, the sellers who have the capability to offer the content and also the (inaudible)players like the MCN, et cetera.

在內容方面，我們相信隨著時間的推移，這對我們來說是一項可能且非常[富有洞察力]的業務。如果你看一下時機，正如之前答案中所分享的那樣，我們確實認為這在時間上是一個很好的機會——這是我們佔領市場的機會之窗，因為我們通過接受來自過去一年中的各個政黨。例如，了解概念的觀眾、有能力提供內容的賣家以及像MCN這樣的（聽不清楚）玩家等等。

In the past few months, since we started to invest more into area, we have seen very good growth in terms of the adoption of our live stream services, both on the demand side and on the supply side, not only from the creator but also from the sellers. We also see -- on top of that, which is also important to highlight, we see a significant improvement on the unit economics on our live streams. Of course, when we first started building the ecosystem, it takes a big cost to develop. But we quickly see the economics improve month-to-month actually much better than we thought before we started the program.

在過去的幾個月裡，自從我們開始增加對該領域的投資以來，我們看到直播服務的採用率有了很好的增長，無論是在需求方還是供應方，不僅來自創作者，而且來自供應商。來自賣家。我們也看到，最重要的是，我們看到直播的單位經濟效益有了顯著改善，這一點也很重要。當然，我們剛開始建造生態系統的時候，開發成本是很大的。但我們很快就看到經濟效益逐月改善，實際上比我們開始該計劃之前想像的要好得多。

Overall, I guess to answer your question, we are very happy with what we have achieved. Essentially, we achieved the market share gain as we wanted with much better economics than we thought. We also are seeing good traction in live stream. The take rate has been faster than we thought for this live stream services. On the -- to your question on the Q4 outlook, we will continue to invest into the shopping season. It's a holiday season, shopping season, as we all know. Q4 in our market generally is the best time of the year to acquire new users, gain market share and strengthen our content ecosystems.

總的來說，當我想回答你的問題時，我們對所取得的成就感到非常滿意。從本質上講，我們實現了我們想要的市場份額成長，而且經濟效益比我們想像的要好得多。我們也看到直播的良好吸引力。這項直播服務的觀看率比我們想像的還要快。關於您關於第四季度前景的問題，我們將繼續投資購物季。眾所周知，這是一個假期季節、購物季節。在我們的市場中，第四季通常是一年中獲取新用戶、獲得市場份額和加強我們的內容生態系統的最佳時機。

If we look at in the past 1.5 months, we have seen very good traction. For example, I think we shared today that -- or yesterday, essentially, for our 11/11, we have achieved more than 1 billion GMVs, which is a very good result from -- better than anticipated, especially over the weekend as well. Yes, I think that's the question on the e-commerce side.

如果我們看看過去 1.5 個月，我們看到了非常好的牽引力。例如，我認為我們今天分享了——或者昨天，本質上，對於我們的11/11，我們已經實現了超過10 億的GMV，這是一個非常好的結果——比預期更好，尤其是在週末。是的，我認為這是電子商務方面的問題。

Regarding the -- question regarding right-of-first refusal with Tencent, the agreement has been auto-renewed under existing terms. As shared before, we'll continue to work on strengthening our game pipeline, both with our self-developed games and published games. And at the same time, we saw the strong trends in Free Fire, and we will continue to focus on making it a strong evergreen franchise.

關於與騰訊的優先購買權問題，該協議已根據現有條款自動續約。正如之前所分享的，我們將繼續致力於加強我們的遊戲管道，包括我們自主開發的遊戲和發行的遊戲。同時，我們看到了《Free Fire》的強勁趨勢，我們將繼續致力於使其成為一個強大的常青系列。

I think for the credit quality, we do see the credit quality actually getting a bit better over the year. However, I think we stay -- we still stay quite vigilant in terms of how the market will evolve. And I think, in general, we are more on the conservative side in terms of managing our credit businesses to make sure that we always protect the -- manage the NPL well while we're growing the portfolio. We -- if you look forward, we don't anticipate a big fluctuation in terms of the credit quality in the short term. But of course, if you look longer term, there are many macro conditions that will impact how the credit quality and the NPL look like. But generally, we do believe that our current level is sustainable and our credit businesses will continue to grow well without sacrificing the qualities.

我認為就信貸品質而言，我們確實看到信貸品質一年來實際上有所改善。然而，我認為我們仍然對市場將如何演變保持相當警惕。我認為，總的來說，我們在管理信貸業務方面更加保守，以確保我們在擴大投資組合的同時始終保護不良貸款。如果你展望未來，我們預期短期內信貸品質不會大幅波動。但當然，如果從長遠來看，有許多宏觀條件會影響信貸品質和不良貸款的情況。但總的來說，我們確實相信我們目前的水平是可持續的，我們的信貸業務將在不犧牲品質的情況下繼續良好成長。

In terms of long-term margins for credit business, of course, this is still early stage for us, as we mentioned before. We continue to expand our credit portfolio across products and across markets, and we also continue to expand our funding sources to reduce the risk exposure to our own booked cash. So overall, I think it's -- we will strive to continue to maintain a very healthy profit level. But while also making sure that we have a healthy and consistent growth in the portfolio, as well as the diversification of our products and funding sources.

當然，就信貸業務的長期利潤而言，正如我們之前提到的，這對我們來說還處於早期階段。我們繼續擴大跨產品和跨市場的信貸投資組合，我們也繼續擴大我們的資金來源，以減少我們自己預訂現金的風險敞口。總的來說，我認為我們將努力繼續保持非常健康的利潤水平。但同時也要確保我們的投資組合健康、持續成長，以及我們的產品和資金來源的多元化。

Our next question comes from Alicia Yap from Citi Group.

我們的下一個問題來自花旗集團的 Alicia Yap。

I have 2 questions. First, on e-commerce. I was hoping management could provide your view as we look beyond 4Q and further out. What is the long-term GMV growth we could achieve? And I think management had previously shared a potential steady state of the long-term EBITDA to the GMV margin guidance. Would that change given the live streaming now being an increasing part of Shopee's GMV? .

我有 2 個問題。首先，關於電子商務。我希望管理層能夠在我們展望第四季乃至更遠的未來時提供您的觀點。我們可以實現的長期 GMV 成長是多少？我認為管理層先前曾分享長期 EBITDA 與 GMV 利潤率指導的潛在穩定狀態。鑑於直播現在在 Shopee 的 GMV 中所佔的比例越來越大，這種情況會改變嗎？ 。

Second question is on your sales and marketing spend. Just wondering the time line or the inflection point that we are looking for. Or is there any sensitivity scenario that we will be assessed, the stickiness of the user engagement and purchasing behavior as related to the subsidy spend? So any color you could provide on the sales and marketing spend outlook would be helpful.

第二個問題是關於您的銷售和行銷支出。只是想知道我們正在尋找的時間線或轉折點。或者我們會評估任何敏感性場景，即與補貼支出相關的使用者參與度和購買行為的黏性？因此，您可以提供的有關銷售和行銷支出前景的任何顏色都會有所幫助。

The -- for the long-term GMV growth, generally, we believe that we can outgrow the market given our competitive advantage. The -- as we see from the Q3, we still see quite a lot of new users being acquired. We also see more less active users become more active. And we also see that the existing users increasing their wallet share on our platform, both shifting from other platform, of course, but also shifting from their offline behaviors.

- 對於長期 GMV 成長，總的來說，我們相信，鑑於我們的競爭優勢，我們可以超越市場。正如我們從第三季度看到的那樣，我們仍然看到大量新用戶被獲取。我們也看到更多不太活躍的用戶變得更加活躍。我們也看到現有用戶在我們平台上的錢包份額不斷增加，當然，這既是從其他平台轉移的，也是從他們的線下行為轉移的。

In the opening, I think Forrest mentioned that the e-commerce penetration in our market is still low. We are still far away from the market saturation. So we believe there is still a sizable runway to go in terms of the long-term GMV growth. Compared to many developed markets on e-commerce, I think in South Asia, we are still underdeveloped. In our Latin American market, for example, in Brazil. I think the runway is even further. If you look at the [entire] Brazil e-commerce order is still a lot less penetrated compared to even our South Asia market.

在開場白中，我想 Forrest 提到我們市場的電子商務滲透率仍然很低。我們距離市場飽和還很遠。因此，我們認為，就長期 GMV 成長而言，仍有相當大的路要走。與許多發達的電子商務市場相比，我認為在南亞，我們仍然不發達。在我們的拉丁美洲市場，例如巴西。我認為跑道更遠。如果你看一下[整個]巴西電子商務訂單的滲透率，甚至與我們的南亞市場相比，仍然要低得多。

Regarding the question on the long-term profitabilities, there's no particular change to our profitabilities. I think I you mentioned live stream. If you look at live stream in particular, we believe this is a [profitable business] over time. I think we have already seen the unit economics improving a lot in the past few months in -- as shared in the last remark. It's true that there is a higher content creation cost associated with these businesses. However, there is another aspect to this as well. Number one, the product categories that does well on live stream tend to be high-margin categories. Typically, the room of the margin are still a bit better for those categories. So we have better manipulation capabilities from the platform. That's one.

關於長期獲利能力的問題，我們的獲利能力沒有特別的改變。我想你提到了直播。如果你特別關注直播，我們相信隨著時間的推移，這是一項[有利可圖的業務]。我認為我們已經看到過去幾個月單位經濟效益有了很大改善——正如上一次評論中所分享的那樣。確實，這些業務的內容創作成本較高。然而，這還有另一個面向。第一，在直播中表現優異的產品類別往往是高利潤類別。通常情況下，這些類別的利潤空間仍然要好一些。所以我們可以透過平台獲得更好的操控能力。這是一個。

Second one is, typically, live stream is also a good tool for sellers to drive more engagement with their buyers or potential buyers, increasing conversions and also drive more sales during -- for particular products or testing a new product or for the leftover stock, et cetera. So it's -- generally, it's a good channel for the seller to invest themselves to market that businesses. I think all in all, if you put everything together, we do believe that the e-commerce EBITDA potential that we shared before will stay.

第二個是，通常情況下，直播對賣家來說也是一個很好的工具，可以促進與買家或潛在買家的更多互動，增加轉換率，並在特定產品或測試新產品或剩餘庫存期間推動更多銷售，等等。所以，一般來說，這是賣家投資自己行銷業務的一個很好的管道。我認為總而言之，如果把所有因素放在一起，我們確實相信我們之前分享的電子商務 EBITDA 潛力將繼續存在。

For the sales and marketing spend, in terms of the time line inflation point and stickiness and retention, there are many aspects we look at the spend we have. And of course, we look at the retention, we look at the order growth, we look at the -- when we look at the new user acquisition, we look at the [CLPs] in terms of the each user brings. There are many aspects that we're looking at.

對於銷售和行銷支出，就時間線膨脹點以及黏性和保留率而言，我們從很多方面來考慮我們的支出。當然，我們會關注保留率、訂單成長，當我們關注新用戶獲取時，我們會關注每個用戶帶來的 [CLP]。我們正在考慮很多方面。

Regarding the time line, as shared in the previous answers, we assess -- we look at the long-term investment on both what's the return investment in general, but also on a particular opportunity that we would like to invest on. And we evaluate both the growth and profitability and market share in totality, rather than looking at one aspect of it.

關於時間線，正如先前答案中所分享的那樣，我們評估了長期投資的整體投資回報率，以及我們想要投資的特定機會。我們從整體上評估成長、獲利能力和市場份額，而不是只看其中的某一方面。

Yes. I also want to add to what Chris mentioned is that the -- as we shared on the call earlier, when we look at the current cohort of new buyers, we actually see very encouraging signs in terms of the quality of the buyers. And overall, we see better buyer retention and higher order frequency on our platform during this period. We have demonstrated a very strong track record previously with -- during the past few years as we scale the Shopee platform. When we do tend to profitability, we were able to have a very healthy profit level for our platform, while maintaining the size of the platform and maintaining the user base. That shows that we have built very clear and strong competitive edge and capability in managing user growth and spending efficiency.

是的。我還想補充克里斯提到的是——正如我們之前在電話會議上分享的那樣，當我們審視當前的新買家群體時，我們實際上看到了買家質量方面非常令人鼓舞的跡象。總體而言，在此期間，我們看到我們平台上的買家保留率更高，訂單頻率更高。在過去的幾年裡，我們在擴大 Shopee 平台的過程中展現了非常出色的業績記錄。當我們確實傾向於獲利時，我們的平台能夠擁有非常健康的利潤水平，同時保持平台的規模和用戶群。這表明我們在管理用戶成長和支出效率方面已經建立了非常清晰、強大的競爭優勢和能力。

Yes. Just to add a the color on this. So typically, when we look at the users, each user we assess on each order on the profitabilities of the order. And also we look at each users on the totality of the profitability of the users. And we look at not only now, their current behavior, but we also look at the past behavior. We also have a model to predict the future behaviors. So at the order level or the user level, we have the capability to be able to predict the potential margins we can make from this particular user, which user to drop, which used to take, and all those will come together when we try to monetize our platform.

是的。只是為此添加顏色。因此，通常，當我們查看用戶時，我們會評估每個訂單的每個用戶的獲利能力。我們也會根據用戶的整體獲利能力來考察每個用戶。我們不僅關注他們現在的行為，也關注過去的行為。我們還有一個模型來預測未來的行為。因此，在訂單級別或用戶級別，我們有能力預測我們可以從該特定用戶那裡獲得的潛在利潤，要刪除哪個用戶，曾經拿走哪個用戶，當我們嘗試刪除哪個用戶時，所有這些都會匯集在一起。透過我們的平台獲利。

And this is why, as Yanjun mentioned, last year when we tried to drive the platform profitability, we could do it very quickly. We know exactly where to pull the lever which also helps us when we try to grow the platform again, which kind of user we want to bring to the platforms from the acquisition -- from the early acquisition to the early adoption, which one we want to drive them to early adoption stage to the mature user stage and to the later stage. And all those were very detailed work that we put into the platform to make sure we manage our subsidies, manage our user acquisition, manage our CIMs, all these things very carefully to maximize our efficiency of spending.

這就是為什麼正如嚴軍所提到的，去年當我們試圖推動平台獲利時，我們可以很快做到。我們確切地知道在哪裡拉動槓桿，這在我們嘗試再次發展平台時也對我們有幫助，我們希望透過收購為平台帶來哪種類型的用戶——從早期收購到早期採用，我們想要哪種用戶推動他們從早期採用階段到成熟用戶階段再到後期階段。所有這些都是我們在平台上投入的非常詳細的工作，以確保我們管理我們的補貼、管理我們的用戶獲取、管理我們的CIM，所有這些事情都非常仔細，以最大限度地提高我們的支出效率。

Our next question comes from Navin Killa from UBS.

我們的下一個問題來自瑞銀集團 (UBS) 的 Navin Killa。

Actually, I had 3 questions. The first one is a bit more long term. I guess looking at all the new entrants across several of your markets, how would you describe Shopee's competitive advantage against them? And why do you think that advantage is sustainable in the long term? The second question I had was with regards to the comments that you made about investments in logistics. How should we think about the quantum of those investments, I guess, both as it goes into your CapEx, but presumably also, I guess, as your lease payments, so I guess, cash outflow below EBITDA? And the last very quick question, the right of first refusal with Tencent, the new renewal, how long does this stay before the next renewal comes in?

事實上，我有3個問題。第一個是更長期的。我想看看您所在的幾個市場中的所有新進者，您會如何描述 Shopee 相對於他們的競爭優勢？為什麼您認為這種優勢從長遠來看是可持續的？我的第二個問題是關於您對物流投資的評論。我想，我們應該如何考慮這些投資的數量，因為它會進入你的資本支出，但我想，也可能會進入你的租賃付款，所以我猜，現金流出低於 EBITDA？最後一個非常簡單的問題，騰訊的優先購買權，新的續訂，在下一次續約之前會持續多久？

Let me start with the first question you mentioned. In our businesses, there's always competition. It's very hard to be the only one offering e-commerce solution in the market. However, we do see the intense of competition might vary across our market, varies across the times. But as we shared in the Q3, we observed that even with -- even in the market with the higher competition, we are able to gain market shares. The key is investment efficiencies. This is what allows us to gain market share while having better economics, unit economics than our close competitors in our market.

我先從你提到的第一個問題開始。在我們的業務中，競爭始終存在。成為市場上唯一一家提供電子商務解決方案的公司非常困難。然而，我們確實看到，競爭的激烈程度可能因市場和時代的不同而有所不同。但正如我們在第三季分享的那樣，我們觀察到，即使在競爭激烈的市場中，我們也能夠獲得市場份額。關鍵是投資效率。這使我們能夠獲得市場份額，同時比我們市場上最接近的競爭對手擁有更好的經濟效益和單位經濟效益。

The key for that is our competitive advantage we have built over the past many years. I think number one, if you think about this, will be scale. As a clear market leader, we have a bigger scale that translate to a much better monetization capabilities and also better cost efficiencies, of course. Number two is the local leadership and operations teams. We have a deep understanding of our market with a strong localized execution across very diverse markets in our region. Our core teams are many global talent, mostly home grown, so with us in the past many years, compared to our regional competitors with many expat leaderships in most -- in almost all the markets.

其中的關鍵是我們在過去多年建立的競爭優勢。我認為，如果你考慮一下這一點，那麼第一個就是規模。作為明顯的市場領導者，我們擁有更大的規模，這意味著更好的貨幣化能力，當然也意味著更好的成本效率。第二是當地的領導和營運團隊。我們對市場有深入的了解，在我們地區的多元化市場中擁有強大的在地化執行力。我們的核心團隊由許多全球人才組成，其中大部分是本土人才，因此在過去的許多年裡，我們的區域競爭對手在幾乎所有市場上都擁有許多外籍領導層。

It does make a huge difference when we come into the nuanced decisions we are making to the market on the -- for example, in my previous answers on the very detailed design making on where to invest exactly, which user to deprioritize, which user to prioritize, which kind of order to prioritize, which kind of order to deprioritize. These are all detailed decisions we have to make by our local operation team. And the quality does make a difference as time goes, which translate to a better efficiency of the investment.

當我們在市場上做出細緻入微的決策時，它確實會產生巨大的影響——例如，在我之前的回答中，我們對具體投資方向、優先考慮哪些用戶、要優先考慮哪些用戶等問題進行了非常詳細的設計。決定優先順序、決定哪種順序的優先順序、決定哪種順序的優先順序。這些都是我們當地營運團隊要做出的具體決定。隨著時間的推移，品質確實會產生影響，這會轉化為更高的投資效率。

The third thing is the e-commerce infrastructure we have built over time in the past many years. It's not a 1-year work, we've been doing this for many years. I think one of this is what we mentioned on the logistics. We are seeing very meaningful improvement in the cost per order in the past years on logistics, and drive the cost to serve down for our users so we can translate the savings to our buyers and sellers. Not only that, if you look at our payment, ShopeePay has been able to reduce the friction of payment in all our markets. The -- besides that, ShopeePay Later, which is a great offerings that we offer to our buyers in the platform, this has been improving the purchase conversions quite a lot as we observed.

第三件事是我們在過去多年長期建立的電子商務基礎設施。這不是一年的工作，我們已經做了很多年了。我想其中之一就是我們提到的物流。在過去的幾年裡，我們看到每個訂單的物流成本有了非常有意義的改善，並降低了為用戶提供服務的成本，這樣我們就可以將節省的成本轉化為買家和賣家。不僅如此，如果你看看我們的付款方式，ShopeePay 已經能夠減少我們所有市場的付款摩擦。除此之外，ShopeePay Later 是我們在平台上為買家提供的一項很棒的服務，正如我們觀察到的那樣，這極大地提高了購買轉換率。

Like, for example, I met some buyers last week, the week before actually, that -- who used to have the problem of not having enough cash to pay for CODs, et cetera, or pay for the services they want to, the product they want to buy on time. As pay later will opt them to buy things on time rather than bidding it. If they're not able to use as Pay Later, they will not be able to buy it on time. And all these things help us to build a competitive advantage for long term. And all the 3 elements are not easily built. It's something that has been done in the past almost 10 years not only for Shopee but for our entire Sea Group to help us to have a better efficiencies on the investment compared to our competitors.

舉例來說，我上週（實際上是前一周）遇到了一些買家，他們曾經遇到過沒有足夠現金支付貨到付款等費用或支付他們想要的服務、產品費用的問題。他們想按時購買。因為稍後付款會選擇他們按時購買東西而不是出價。如果他們無法使用“稍後付款”，他們將無法按時購買。所有這些都有助於我們建立長期的競爭優勢。而且這三個要素都不容易建構。這是過去近 10 年來所做的事情，不僅是為 Shopee，也是為我們整個 Sea Group，以幫助我們比競爭對手獲得更好的投資效率。

The logistic investment, I think the -- it's not a short-term, I guess, investment we are taking. It's something we've been investing over the years for quite a long time. But the degree of investment, it's probably not as huge as most people think. I think it's -- a lot of this is investing in the networks of the people that we have built over time. Part of the CapEx, you can imagine, is the hubs we put into place. But this is a general kind of improvement of the rent that we put, where we don't have -- we didn't buy the land, we typically rent the land, but we need to just convert it to the proper hub. And this is a relatively small investment in terms of CapEx.

我認為，物流投資—我想，我們正在進行的投資不是短期投資。這是我們多年來一直在投資的東西。但投入的程度，恐怕沒有大多數人想像的那麼巨大。我認為，其中很大一部分是對我們長期以來建立的人員網絡的投資。您可以想像，資本支出的一部分是我們建立的中心。但這是我們所支付的租金的一般性改善，我們沒有購買土地，我們通常租賃土地，但我們需要將其轉換為適當的中心。就資本支出而言，這是相對較小的投資。

Another type of investment is the sorting centers. We do have a few investment put into place to -- for the automatic sorting machines so we can automate the sorting rather than doing it manually. The other part of the investment would be the trucks. But we rent most of the trucks, so it's a rather kind of like less [books] on the CapEx for this.

另一種投資是分類中心。我們確實對自動分類機進行了一些投資，這樣我們就可以自動進行分類，而不是手動進行。投資的另一部分是卡車。但我們租用了大部分卡車，因此關於資本支出的[書籍]相當少。

Also to clarify, the model of logistics that we have is not, at this point, a CapEx-heavy model. We're not looking to build mega warehouses or mega machinery type of logistics in that model. Our model is more about building a large networks of small sorting centers, small hubs into many, many neighborhoods, and also build a team capability to expand our last mile coverage across a wider network of areas covered by us. So it's more about OpEx. And for the past few years, we have already been consistently investing in logistics, which is one of the key reasons that has got us to the current position of continue to reduce the logistic shipping fees and also a key competitive advantage that we have.

另外要澄清的是，目前我們所擁有的物流模型並不是一個重資本支出的模型。我們不打算在該模型中建造大型倉庫或大型機械類型的物流。我們的模式更多的是建立一個由小型分類中心、小型樞紐組成的大型網絡，延伸到許多社區，並建立團隊能力，將我們的最後一英里覆蓋範圍擴大到我們覆蓋的更廣泛的區域網絡。所以更多的是關於營運支出。而在過去的幾年裡，我們一直在物流方面進行持續的投資，這是我們能夠達到目前不斷降低物流運費的關鍵原因之一，也是我們擁有的關鍵的競爭優勢。

Just want to add on this a little bit. Actually, compared to many other logistic providers, if you look at the 3 tier regions, our CapEx has been a lot lower if you compare. And there's a reason for that, actually, because we are able to predict our volume in a lot more accurate ways. Imagine if you are a third party logistics, you have to forecast what your volume will be in the next year or next 2 to 3 years in order to invest in CapEx. It's extremely hard, especially in our market. For our own logistics, we have a good way, let's say, to predict what's the demand in our market, not only for next month, not for next quarter, but in the next 2 to 3 years, most likely.

只是想補充一點。事實上，與許多其他物流提供者相比，如果你看看三級地區，我們的資本支出要低得多。實際上，這是有原因的，因為我們能夠以更準確的方式預測我們的交易量。想像一下，如果您是第三方物流公司，您必須預測明年或未來 2 到 3 年的業務量，以便投資資本支出。這非常困難，尤其是在我們的市場。對於我們自己的物流，我們有一個很好的方法，比如說​​，可以預測我們市場的需求，不僅是下個月的需求，不是下個季度的需求，而且很可能是未來2 到3 年的需求。

As a consequence of that, we are able to CapEx things, not only CapEx actually we start it from the designing of our networks, as Yanjun mentioned, to design our network in a very flexible way, to design our network in a very optimized way. After designing network in a good way, then you can manage your CapEx in a much more efficient way. And every CapEx can be put to use right after you capitalize on it, rather than sometimes you have to rush for it or you have to capitalize on things, you build something by you wit to be used. I think in this aspect, we have a good advantage compared to the other offerings in the market. That's also why we can manage our cost down compared to the other offerings.

因此，我們能夠進行資本支出，不僅僅是資本支出，實際上我們從網絡設計開始，正如嚴俊所提到的，以非常靈活的方式設計我們的網絡，以非常優化的方式設計我們的網絡。以良好的方式設計人脈後，您就可以以更有效的方式管理您的資本支出。每一筆資本支出都可以在你利用它之後立即投入使用，而不是有時你必須急於獲得它或你必須利用一些東西，你可以透過你的智慧來建立一些可以使用的東西。我認為在這方面，與市場上的其他產品相比，我們有很好的優勢。這也是我們能夠比其他產品降低成本的原因。

Regarding the question on ROFR agreement with Tencent, it is automatically renewed every year unless terminated by either party. The agreement is also publicly available.

關於與騰訊的ROFR協議問題，除非任何一方終止，否則每年都會自動續約。該協議也已公開。

Our next question comes from Jiong Shao from Barclays.

我們的下一個問題來自巴克萊銀行的邵炯。

I have 2 questions and a follow-up. The first question is that since you pivoted for growth a few months back, it's great to see the GMV now is growing year-over-year. I was wondering, could you talk about the linearity as you went through the quarter? I suspect the momentum picked up during the quarter. And could you talk about sort of, so far in Q4, how that GMV growth momentum has been? That's -- any comment on FX impact, that would be great. Second question is, I think you talked about live streaming, obviously, the key focus for growth. You mentioned 10% GMV. I wasn't sure, is that for Indonesia? Or is that for the whole region?

我有兩個問題和一個後續問題。第一個問題是，自從幾個月前你們轉向成長以來，很高興看到 GMV 現在逐年成長。我想知道，您能談談本季的線性情況嗎？我懷疑這一勢頭在本季有所回升。您能否談談第四季迄今的 GMV 成長動能如何？那就是——任何關於外匯影響的評論都很好。第二個問題是，我認為您談到了直播，顯然這是成長的關鍵焦點。你提到了10%的GMV。我不確定，是印尼的嗎？還是整個地區都這樣？

My question is about your long-term expectation. As you know, in countries like China, live streaming is quite, 20%, 25% of total GMV. For the industry, what do you think that number could be or should be for Southeast Asia, I don't know, in a few years, and where you are currently for the region? And related to that, since the TikTok sort of shut down in Indonesia, what have you seen, if anything, the impact for your growth for your market share?

我的問題是關於您的長期期望。如您所知，在中國等國家，直播佔總 GMV 的 20%、25%。對於該行業來說，您認為幾年後東南亞的這個數字可能或應該是多少，我不知道，您目前在該地區的情況如何？與此相關的是，自從 TikTok 在印尼關閉以來，您認為對您的市佔率成長有何影響（如果有的話）？

And lastly, for the follow-up I had is that you mentioned a couple of times that you committed to investing within our means and will not raise any financing going forward. And in Q3, you did a great job. You grew your GMV, grew your revenue while making some profits for the group. I was wondering, is that sort of a breakeven or small profit is sort of the guardrail you meant by investing within your means?

最後，我的後續行動是，您多次提到您承諾在我們的能力範圍內進行投資，並且今後不會籌集任何融資。在第三季度，你們做得很好。你增加了你的 GMV，增加了你的收入，同時為集團賺了一些利潤。我想知道，這種損益平衡或小額利潤是不是你所說的量入為出的投資的護欄？

Let me start first. In terms of the growth over the quarter, I think the -- we don't have a detailed month-to-month break down number shared. But in general, if you look at the year-to-year growth, we do see a better year-to-year growth over the months. That for Q4, we do see the trend continues. So, so far, as we are right now, we see the broadly similar trend in terms of the growth levels floating from Q3 to Q4. And the impact on ForEx, generally, I think the number we shared is in the U.S. terms. But if you take the constant currencies, we actually grow better. In quite many of markets actually, there is a depreciation against U.S. dollar. So operationally, if we take the constant currency, we grew better than the U.S. dollar basis.

讓我先開始吧。就本季的成長而言，我認為我們沒有共享詳細的月度細分數據。但總的來說，如果你看看同比增長，我們確實看到了幾個月來更好的同比增長。對於第四季度，我們確實看到這種趨勢仍在繼續。因此，到目前為止，我們看到從第三季到第四季的成長水準呈現大致相似的趨勢。對於外匯的影響，總的來說，我認為我們分享的數字是按美國計算的。但如果採用不變的貨幣，我們實際上會成長得更好。實際上，在相當多的市場中，美元兌美元都在貶值。因此，從操作上來說，如果我們採用不變貨幣，我們的成長會比美元基礎好。

In terms of the [likely] expenditure percentage I think mentioned in the earlier comments was for the region, the -- if you look forward, I think the percentage of the penetration might be country by country. So if you put everything together, it might not be fair. Let's take a look -- if you take the biggest market, like Indonesia, the way we look at things is we look at the content, e-commerce as a whole, content including live streaming, including videos actually, which is another part of the -- important part of the content. The -- if you look at everything together, the -- in Indonesia as a market, we do believe, let's say, somewhere a range around 20% to 30% is a reasonable range we look at. The -- probably still a little bit kind of lower than what you see from China, but has the reasonable side.

就[可能的]支出百分比而言，我認為之前的評論中提到的是針對該地區的，如果你向前看，我認為滲透率的百分比可能是逐個國家的。因此，如果將所有內容放在一起，可能會不公平。讓我們來看看——如果你考慮最大的市場，比如印度尼西亞，我們看待事物的方式是我們看內容，電子商務作為一個整體，內容包括直播，實際上包括視頻，這是- 內容的重要部分。如果你綜合考慮印尼這個市場的所有情況，我們確實相信，比如說，20% 到 30% 左右的範圍是我們所考慮的合理範圍。可能仍然比你在中國看到的要低一些，但也有合理的一面。

In the other markets, maybe slightly lower than that, but the -- it wouldn't be too far. But again, this is a very early time that we develop the market and we see how it develops. Generally, we are on the more positive side than the negative side in terms of the potential for these businesses.

在其他市場，可能略低於這個數字，但不會太遠。但同樣，現在是我們開發市場的早期階段，我們將看到它是如何發展的。總的來說，就這些業務的潛力而言，我們的看法是正面的而不是負面的。

For Indonesia, of course, mathematically, after TikTok closed the shop, the market share -- everybody's market share grew a little bit, of course. And we do see good traction on the sellers and creators who joined our platform. I do believe they joined some other platform as well, as they are looking for the growth opportunities.

當然，對於印尼來說，從數學上來說，在 TikTok 關閉商店之後，市場份額——當然每個人的市場份額都增加了一點。我們確實看到加入我們平台的賣家和創作者俱有良好的吸引力。我確實相信他們也加入了其他一些平台，因為他們正在尋找成長機會。

So generally, it has been -- we have seen the behavior. The -- in terms of the breakeven level, I think we are happy with the fact that we breakeven at the group. But I think, as Forrest mentioned very early, we would like to balance between the gross market share and profitability. And that might -- we will have to make decisions based on how the market condition moves.

一般來說，我們已經看到了這種行為。 - 就損益平衡水準而言，我認為我們對集團實現損益平衡感到滿意。但我認為，正如福雷斯特很早就提到的，我們希望在總市場份額和盈利能力之間取得平衡。這可能——我們將不得不根據市場狀況的變化做出決定。

Due to interest at the time, we will be concluding our question-and-answer session. I'd now like to turn the conference back over to Ms. Min Ju Song for any closing remarks.

由於當時的興趣，我們將結束我們的問答環節。現在我想將會議轉回宋敏菊女士做總結發言。

Thank you all for joining today's call. We look forward to speaking to all of you again next quarter. Thank you.

感謝大家參加今天的電話會議。我們期待下季再次與大家交談。謝謝。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's session. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的會議。您現在可以斷開連線。