(SE) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and good evening to all, and welcome to the Sea Limited Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2023 Results Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) And finally, I would like to advise all participants that this call is being recorded.

大家早安，晚上好，歡迎參加 Sea Limited 2023 年第四季和全年業績電話會議。 （操作員說明）最後，我想告知所有參與者，本次通話正在錄音。

Thank you. I'd now like to welcome Ms. Min Ju Song to begin the conference. Please go ahead.

謝謝。現在有請宋敏菊女士開始會議。請繼續。

Thank you, and hello, everyone, and welcome to Sea's 2023 fourth quarter and full year earnings conference call. I am Min Ju Song from Sea's Chief Corporate Officer's office.

謝謝大家，大家好，歡迎參加 Sea 2023 年第四季和全年財報電話會議。我是 Sea 首席企業長辦公室的 Min Ju Song。

Before we continue, I would like to remind you that we may make forward-looking statements which are [inherently] subject to risks and uncertainties and may not be realized in the future for various reasons as stated in our press release.

在我們繼續之前，我想提醒您，我們可能會做出前瞻性陳述，這些陳述[本質上]受到風險和不確定性的影響，並且可能由於我們新聞稿中所述的各種原因而在未來無法實現。

Also, this call includes the discussion of certain non-GAAP financial measures such as adjusted EBITDA. We believe these measures can enhance our investors' understanding of the actual cash flows of our major businesses when used as a complement to our GAAP disclosures. For discussion of the use of non-GAAP financial measures and reconciliation with the closest GAAP measures, please refer to the section on non-GAAP financial measures in our press release.

此外，本次電話會議也討論了某些非公認會計準則財務指標，例如調整後的 EBITDA。我們相信，這些措施可以增強投資者對我們主要業務實際現金流量的理解，作為我們公認會計準則揭露的補充。有關非 GAAP 財務指標的使用以及與最接近的 GAAP 指標的調整的討論，請參閱我們新聞稿中有關非 GAAP 財務指標的部分。

I have with me Sea's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Forrest Li; President, Chris Feng; Chief Financial Officer, Tony Hou; and Chief Corporate Officer, Yanjun Wang. Our management will share strategy and business updates, operating highlights and financial performance for the fourth quarter and full year of 2023. This will be followed by a Q&A session in which we welcome any questions you have.

與我同行的有 Sea 董事長兼執行長 Forrest Li；總裁，克里斯·馮；首席財務官侯先生；兼首席公司官王彥軍。我們的管理層將分享 2023 年第四季和全年的策略和業務更新、營運亮點和財務業績。隨後將舉行問答環節，歡迎您提出任何問題。

With that, let me turn the call over to Forrest.

現在，讓我把電話轉給福雷斯特。

Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining today's call. I'm happy to share that we have achieved our fourth full year of annual profit since our IPO. In 2023 we achieved profitability, strengthened our market leadership for our e-commerce business, grew our digital financial services business, and stabilized the performance of our digital entertainment business. We have emerged with a much stronger balance sheet with our cash position increasing to $8.5 billion as of the end of 2023, demonstrating the discipline and the prudence we have applied in our investments over the past year. Looking ahead, we expect 2024 to be another profitable year.

大家好，感謝您參加今天的電話會議。我很高興與大家分享，自首次公開募股以來，我們已實現第四個全年盈利。 2023年，我們實現盈利，加強了電子商務業務的市場領先地位，發展了數位金融服務業務，並穩定了數位娛樂業務的業績。截至 2023 年底，我們的資產負債表更加強勁，現金部位增加至 85 億美元，證明了我們在過去一年的投資中所遵循的紀律和審慎態度。展望未來，我們預期 2024 年將又是獲利的一年。

Let me recap our performance at the individual business level in 2023 and share the key strategic focus for each business in 2024. Starting with Shopee. First, Shopee's investments since July last year have paid off. I'm pleased to report that despite an environment of intensified competition in Southeast Asia, we believe we had a [meaningful] gain in market share between the start and at the end of 2023. We are happy to have solidified Shopee's market share in the region, and we intend to maintain our market share in 2024. We expect Shopee’s full-year GMV growth to be in the high-teens range and its adjusted EBITDA to turn positive in the second half of this year.

讓我回顧一下我們2023年在各個業務層面的表現，並分享2024年每個業務的策略重點。從Shopee開始。首先，Shopee自去年7月以來的投資已獲得回報。我很高興地向大家報告，儘管東南亞的競爭環境日益激烈，但我們相信，從2023 年初到2023 年底，我們的市場份額取得了[有意義的]增長。我們很高興鞏固了Shopee 在東南亞的市場份額。地區，我們打算在 2024 年保持我們的市場份額。我們預計 Shopee 的全年 GMV 增長將在高雙位數範圍內，其調整後的 EBITDA 將在下半年轉正年。

To return and strengthen our competitive advantage, Shopee's 3 operational priorities in 2024 are improving service quality for buyers, enhancing the price competitiveness of our product listings, and the strengthening our content ecosystem. On service quality for buyers, we'll do more to optimize key aspects of the buyers' experience such as the delivery speed and consistency, return and refund processes and customer service.

為了回歸並加強我們的競爭優勢，Shopee 2024年的三大營運重點是提高買家服務品質、增強我們產品的價格競爭力以及加強我們的內容生態系統。在為買家提供的服務品質方面，我們將採取更多措施來優化買家體驗的關鍵方面，例如送貨速度和一致性、退貨和退款流程以及客戶服務。

These are areas we already excel in and we will continue to improve [out]. On keeping our product listings price competitive, we'll continue to work more with sellers who have more upstream supply chain access and provide more fulfillment, marketing and shop management services to our sellers. On content, we will deepen [and the] broader engagement with creators, sellers and the partners across the content ecosystem and better integrate live streaming and the short form video into the shopping experience.

這些是我們已經擅長的領域，我們將繼續改進。為了保持我們的產品清單價格具有競爭力，我們將繼續與擁有更多上游供應鏈管道的賣家進行更多合作，並為我們的賣家提供更多的履行、行銷和商店管理服務。在內容方面，我們將深化與內容生態系統中的創作者、賣家和合作夥伴的更廣泛接觸，並將直播和短影片更能融入購物體驗。

Let me now highlight some of the Shopee's achievements in the fourth quarter. During the quarter, Shopee delivered strong results with both top line growth acceleration and bottom line improvement. Shopee's GMV and orders grew 29% and 46% year-on-year, and 15% and 13% quarter-on-quarter respectively, resulting in solid market share gains across our markets. Meanwhile, Shopee's adjusted EBITDA loss improved by 35% sequentially. Adjusted EBITDA loss per order improved by 43% quarter-on-quarter.

現在讓我重點介紹 Shopee 在第四季度取得的一些成就。本季度，Shopee 取得了強勁的業績，營收成長加速，獲利改善。 Shopee 的 GMV 和訂單分別年增 29% 和 46%，環比增長 15% 和 13%，從而在我們的市場上取得了穩固的市場份額。同時，Shopee 的調整後 EBITDA 虧損環比改善了 35%。每訂單調整後 EBITDA 損失季增 43%。

On logistics, we opened 5 new sorting centers and 385 new first and last mile hubs across our Asia market and extended our logistics network further to improve our coverage to [do] more automation, tighter planning, better routing and other operational improvements. Our platform logistics cost per order in Asia decreased by 12% year-on-year in the fourth quarter. This was partly driven by our own logistics network cost per order decreasing by 20% from the same [take] rate last year.

在物流方面，我們在亞洲市場開設了5 個新的分類中心和385 個新的第一英里和最後一英里樞紐，並進一步擴展了我們的物流網絡，以提高我們的覆蓋範圍，以實現更多自動化、更嚴格的規劃、更好的路線和其他營運改善。第四季我們在亞洲每訂單的平台物流成本較去年同期下降了12%。這在一定程度上是由於我們自己的物流網路每份訂單的成本比去年的相同水準下降了 20%。

We're also seeing good progress made on delivery speed. In Indonesia in December 2023, more than half of the orders from buyers in Java were delivered within 2 days. We'll continue to improve logistics service quality in terms of both speed and the consistency. At the same time, we're also expanding premium services such as next day delivery and introducing new features. For example, we commenced return on sports services in Indonesia and Vietnam. This initiative has resulted in higher trust and increased product frequency -- purchase frequency from our buyers, particularly those who are new to Shopee.

我們也看到交貨速度方面取得了良好進展。 2023年12月在印度尼西亞，超過一半的爪哇買家訂單在2天內交付。我們將繼續提高物流服務質量，包括速度和一致性。同時，我們也正在擴展隔日達等優質服務並推出新功能。例如，我們開始在印尼和越南恢復體育服務。這項舉措提高了信任度並提高了產品頻率——我們的買家的購買頻率，尤其是那些剛接觸 Shopee 的買家。

Our e-commerce logistics network is now one of the most intensive and efficient in our markets and a strong competitive moat for us. We have rapidly ramped up live streaming e-commerce which accounted for around 15% of our physical order volume in Southeast Asia last December.

我們的電子商務物流網路現在是我們市場上最密集、最高效的網路之一，也是我們強大的競爭護城河。我們迅速發展了直播電商，去年 12 月占我們在東南亞實體訂單量的 15% 左右。

With the scale and the leadership achieved, unit economics of the segment also improved meaningfully quarter-on-quarter. Shopee Brazil continued its strong performance in the fourth quarter. Its contribution margin loss per order improved by nearly 90% year-on-year. This was driven by improvements in both user monetization and cost efficiency. We believe we have achieved cost leadership in logistics to scale and operational efficiencies, which have been and will be key to our success in the market.

隨著規模和領先地位的實現，該部門的單位經濟效益也較上季顯著改善。 Shopee Brazil 在第四季持續保持強勁表現。每單貢獻邊際損失較去年同期改善近90%。這是由用戶變現和成本效率的改善所推動的。我們相信，我們在物流規模和營運效率方面已經實現了成本領先，這已經並將成為我們在市場上取得成功的關鍵。

Turing to our Digital Financial Services segment. SeaMoney has delivered a strong year in 2023 primarily attributed to our consumer and SME credit business. Our journey to build the credit business dates back to 2019. We initially started by introducing SPaylater consumption loans in response to Shopee buyers' strong need for such services.

轉向我們的數位金融服務部門。 SeaMoney 在 2023 年取得了強勁的業績，這主要歸功於我們的消費者和中小企業信貸業務。我們建立信用業務的歷程可以追溯到2019年。我們最初是為了響應Shopee買家對此類服務的強烈需求而推出SPaylater消費貸款。

Subsequently, we expanded our offerings to cash loan services to both buyers and sellers on Shopee. This underscores our user centric approach and the unique advantage offered by the Shopee ecosystem for SeaMoney to quickly achieve critical scale and profitability.

隨後，我們將產品範圍擴展到為 Shopee 上的買家和賣家提供現金貸款服務。這凸顯了我們以用戶為中心的方法以及 Shopee 生態系統為 SeaMoney 快速實現關鍵規模和盈利能力提供的獨特優勢。

2023 was the first year of positive profit for SeaMoney with full year adjusted EBITDA of $550 million as of December 31, 2023. Our consumer and SME loans principal outstanding was $3.1 billion, a 27% increase year-on-year, $2.5 billion of that was on the book.

2023 年是SeaMoney 實現正盈利的第一年，截至2023 年12 月31 日，全年調整後EBITDA 為5.5 億美元。我們的消費者和中小企業貸款未償還本金為31 億美元，同比增長27 %，其中25 億美元在書上。

Consumer and SME loans active users for the fourth quarter [defined] as credit users with loans outstanding by the end of the quarter was over $16 million, a 28% increase year-on-year. In 2024, we will continue to invest in user acquisition for our credit business both on and off Shopee platform as we see significant upside in our markets. As we scale, we will remain prudent on risk management.

第四季消費和中小企業貸款活躍用戶（定義為截至季末未償還貸款的信貸用戶）超過 1,600 萬美元，年增 28%。 2024 年，我們將繼續投資 Shopee 平台內外的信貸業務的用戶獲取，因為我們看到市場有顯著的成長空間。隨著我們的規模擴大，我們將在風險管理方面保持謹慎。

In addition to our credit business, SeaMoney is also growing our digital banking and the insurance services to capture future business opportunities in the Digital Financial Services segment. We expect SeaMoney to continue its robust growth in 2024.

除了信貸業務外，SeaMoney 還發展數位銀行和保險服務，以抓住數位金融服務領域的未來商機。我們預計 SeaMoney 將在 2024 年繼續強勁成長。

In Digital Entertainment, Garena has done well in enhancing and optimizing game experiences for its players. For instance, we have continuously introduced a fresh and highly localized content to Free Fire.

在數位娛樂領域，Garena 在增強和優化玩家的遊戲體驗方面做得很好。例如，我們不斷為《Free Fire》引入新鮮且高度在地化的內容。

In the fourth quarter we collaborated with Lamborghini to allow players to drive their cars in game. We also recently announced our collaboration with JKT48, an idol group from Jakarta, as our Indonesian brand ambassador. This partnership excite and delight our players and enable us to nurture our local communities.

第四季我們與蘭博基尼合作，讓玩家可以在遊戲中駕駛自己的汽車。我們最近也宣布與雅加達的偶像團體 JKT48 合作，擔任我們的印尼品牌大使。這種夥伴關係讓我們的玩家感到興奮和高興，並使我們能夠培育我們的當地社區。

I am happy to share that we are seeing improved user acquisition and retention trends for Free Fire. In 2023, Free Fire was the most downloaded mobile game globally, according to Sensor Tower. We are pleased that these positive trends are continuing into 2024. In February, Free Fire achieved more than 100 million peak daily active users. It remains one of the largest mobile games in the world. With this positive momentum, we currently expect Free Fire to grow double-digits year-on-year for both user base and bookings in 2024.

我很高興與大家分享，我們看到 Free Fire 的用戶獲取和保留趨勢有所改善。據 Sensor Tower 稱，2023 年，《Free Fire》是全球下載次數最多的手機遊戲。我們很高興這些正面趨勢將持續到 2024 年。2 月份，Free Fire 的每日活躍用戶高峰超過 1 億。它仍然是世界上最大的手機遊戲之一。憑藉這一積極勢頭，我們目前預計 2024 年《Free Fire》的用戶群和預訂量將實現兩位數的同比增長。

To conclude, we are pleased to see positive trends in both growth and profitability for all 3 of our businesses. We will continue to invest for the future with discipline and focus. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank our employees, users, investors and partners for your continued support throughout this journey.

總而言之，我們很高興看到我們所有 3 項業務的成長和獲利能力均呈現正面趨勢。我們將繼續以紀律和專注為未來進行投資。我也想藉此機會感謝我們的員工、用戶、投資者和合作夥伴在整個過程中給予我們的持續支持。

With that, I would invite Tony to discuss our financials.

這樣，我會邀請托尼討論我們的財務狀況。

Thank you, Forrest, and thanks to everyone for joining the call. [We'll] see overall, total GAAP revenue increased 5% year-on-year to $3.6 billion in the fourth quarter, and 5% year-on-year to $13.1 billion for the full year of 2023. This was primarily driven by the improved monetization in our e-commerce and digital financial services businesses.

謝謝你，福雷斯特，也謝謝大家加入電話會議。 [我們]整體來看，第四季 GAAP 總營收年增 5%，達到 36 億美元，2023 年全年年增 5%，達到 131 億美元。這主要是由於我們的電子商務和數位金融服務業務的貨幣化得到改善。

Our total adjusted EBITDA was $127 million in the first quarter of 2023 compared to an adjusted EBITDA of $496 million in the first quarter of 2022. For the full year of 2023 our total adjusted EBITDA was $1.2 billion compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $878 million full year of 2022.

2023 年第一季調整後 EBITDA 總額為 1.27 億美元，而 2022 年第一季調整後 EBITDA 為 4.96 億美元。2023 年全年調整後 EBITDA 總額為 12 億美元，而調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 8.78 億美元總額為 12 億美元，而調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 8.78 億美元總額為 12 億美元，而調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 8.78 億美元總額為 8.78 億美元2022 年全年。

On e-commerce, our fourth quarter GAAP revenue of $2.6 billion included GAAP marketplace revenue of $2.3 billion, up 23% year-on-year, and [GAAP] product revenue of $0.3 billion.

在電子商務方面，我們第四季的 GAAP 營收為 26 億美元，其中 GAAP 市場營收為 23 億美元，年增 23%，[GAAP] 產品營收為 3 億美元。

Within GAAP marketplace revenue, core marketplace revenue, mainly consisting of transaction-based fees and advertising revenues was $1.6 billion, up 41% year-on-year as a result of platform growth and improved monetization.

在 GAAP 市場收入中，核心市場收入（主要包括以交易為基礎的費用和廣告收入）為 16 億美元，由於平台成長和貨幣化改善，較去年同期成長 41%。

Value-added services revenue, mainly consisting of revenues related to logistics services was $0.7 billion, down 5% year-on-year as a result of higher revenue netting off against shipping subsidies.

增值服務收入（主要包括與物流服務相關的收入）為7億美元，年減5%，這是由於扣除航運補貼後的收入增加所致。

For the full year of 2023, GAAP revenue of $9.0 billion included GAAP marketplace revenue of $7.9 billion, up 27% year-on-year, and GAAP product revenue of $1.1 billion.

2023年全年，GAAP營收為90億美元，其中GAAP市場營收為79億美元，年增27%，GAAP產品營收為11億美元。

E-commerce adjusted EBITDA loss was $225 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $196 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. 2023 full year adjusted EBITDA loss improved by 87% year-on-year to $240 million.

2023 年第四季電子商務調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 2.25 億美元，而 2022 年第四季調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 1.96 億美元。2023 年全年調整後 EBITDA 虧損年增 87%，達到 2.4 億美元。

For our Asia markets, we had an adjusted EBITDA loss of $193 million during the quarter compared to an adjusted EBITDA of $320 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. In our other markets, the adjusted EBITDA loss was $32 million, narrowing meaningfully from last year when losses were $124 million. Contribution margin loss per order in Brazil improved by nearly 90% year-on-year to reach negative $0.5.

對於亞洲市場，本季調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 1.93 億美元，而 2022 年第四季調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 3.2 億美元。在其他市場，調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 3,200 萬美元，較去年大幅收窄當時虧損為1.24 億美元。巴西每訂單邊際貢獻年增近 90%，達到負 0.5 美元。

Digital financial services GAAP revenue was up by 24% year-on-year to $472 million in the fourth quarter and up by 44% year-on-year to $1.8 billion for the full year of 2023. Adjusted EBITDA was up by 96% year-on-year to $148 million in the fourth quarter of 2023, and up by 341% year-on-year to $550 million for the full year of 2023.

數位金融服務第四季 GAAP 營收年增 24% 至 4.72 億美元，2023 年全年年增 44% 至 18 億美元。調整後 EBITDA 成長 96% 2023年第四季年增341%至1.48億美元，2023年全年年增341%至5.5億美元。

Digital Entertainment bookings were $456 million in the fourth quarter and $1.8 billion for the full year of 2023. GAAP revenue was $511 million in the fourth quarter and $2.2 billion for the full year of 2023. Adjusted EBITDA was $217 million in the fourth quarter and $921 million for the full year of 2023.

第四季數位娛樂預訂量為4.56 億美元，2023 年全年為18 億美元。第四季GAAP 營收為5.11 億美元，2023 年全年為22 億美元。第四季調整後EBITDA 為2.17 億美元，2023 年全年為921 美元。2023年全年達 100萬。

Returning to our consolidated numbers, we recognize a net non-operating income of $32 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 compared to a net non-operating income of $35 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. For the full year, our non-operating income was $208 million compared to a loss of $13 million for the full year of 2022. The improvement was mainly due to higher interest income for the full year of 2023 as compared to the full year of 2022.

回到我們的合併數據，我們確認2023 年第四季的非營業收入淨額為3,200 萬美元，而2022 年第四季的非營業收入淨額為3,500 萬美元。全年來看，我們的非營業收入收入為 2.08 億美元，而 2022 年全年虧損 1,300 萬美元。這項改善主要是由於 2023 年全年利息收入高於 2022 年全年。

We had a net income tax expense of $77 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 compared to net income tax credit $43 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. For the full year, our net income tax expense was $263 million, compared to $168 million for the full year of 2022. As a result, net loss was $112 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 as compared to a net income of $423 million in the fourth quarter of 2022.

2023 年第四季，我們的淨所得稅支出為7,700 萬美元，而2022 年第四季的淨所得稅抵免為4,300 萬美元。全年，我們的淨所得稅支出為2.63 億美元，而2022 年第四季度的淨所得稅支出為 1.68 億美元。2022 年。因此，2023 年第四季的淨虧損為 1.12 億美元，而 2022 年第四季的淨收入為 4.23 億美元。

For full year, net income was $163 million as compared to a net loss of $1.7 billion for the full year of 2022.

全年淨利為 1.63 億美元，而 2022 年全年淨虧損為 17 億美元。

At the end of first quarter of 2023,– cash, cash equivalents, short-term and other treasury investments were $8.5 billion, representing a net increase of $566 million from the previous quarter. The increase includes proceeds of approximately $370 million from lower securities purchased under agreements to resell relating to our banking operations. From the first quarter of 2024 onwards, we will include this as part of our other treasury investments as these are highly-liquid marketable securities.

2023年第一季末，現金、現金等價物、短期及其他庫存投資為85億美元，較上季淨增加5.66億美元。這一增長包括根據與我們的銀行業務相關的轉售協議購買的較低證券的約 3.7 億美元收益。從 2024 年第一季起，我們將此納入我們其他財務投資的一部分，因為這些是流動性高的有價證券。

With that, let me turn the call to Min Ju.

那麼，讓我把電話轉給敏珠。

Thank you, Forrest and Tony. We are now ready to open the call [to] questions.

謝謝你們，福雷斯特和托尼。我們現在準備開始提問。

(Operator Instructions) Your first question comes from the line of Pang Vitt from Goldman Sachs.

（操作員說明）您的第一個問題來自高盛的Pang Vitt。

Congratulations for the solid set of results. Two questions from me. Firstly, on Shopee. Can you please provide a little bit more color on the guidance you gave out for 2024? What is the assumption [behind] in terms of competitive landscape and market share, especially in Indonesia? When it comes to high-teen growth, how do you plan to achieve this? And on the margin side, what gave you the confidence that we can go back to breakeven by second half of this year? And what kind of EBITDA margin we can expect as well for Shopee to achieve in the near term? That's question number one.

祝賀取得了一系列可靠的結果。我有兩個問題。首先是在Shopee上。您能否為 2024 年發布的指導提供更多資訊？就競爭格局和市場佔有率而言，特別是在印度尼西亞，[背後]的假設是什麼？當談到青少年的成長時，您打算如何實現這一目標？在利潤方面，是什麼讓您有信心我們可以在今年下半年恢復損益兩平？我們預計 Shopee 在短期內能達到多少 EBITDA 利潤率？這是第一個問題。

Question number 2 related to SeaMoney. Can you provide some color on why EBITDA was weaker quarter-on-quarter? We noticed that you spend more on marketing this quarter. Should we expect this to be the new run rate? What kind of growth outlook can we expect for 2024? And can we still expect to see EBITDA growth here?

問題 2 與 SeaMoney 相關。您能否解釋一下 EBITDA 環比疲軟的原因？我們注意到您本季在行銷方面花費更多。我們是否應該期望這是新的運行率？ 2024 年我們可以期待什麼樣的成長前景？我們還能期望看到 EBITDA 成長嗎？

I think -- let me address the first question first. I think in terms of the Shopee, we do believe that we are able to grow high-teens for the full year 2024, as we shared in the opening. For -- [particular] for Indonesia, we do see Indonesia is a good market for us in the Q4 and we believe that the trend likely -- the growth trend, [I] -- can continue in Q1 and in line with the other markets in the following quarters.

我想——讓我先解決第一個問題。我認為就 Shopee 而言，我們確實相信我們能夠在 2024 年全年實現高成長，正如我們在開幕式中所分享的那樣。對於——[特別是]印度尼西亞，我們確實認為印度尼西亞在第四季度對我們來說是一個很好的市場，我們相信這種趨勢——增長趨勢，[I]——可以在第一季度繼續下去，並與其他市場保持一致接下來幾季的市場。

If you look at the overall competitive landscape, we have seen a more stable competitive landscape in the past quarters. Again, we cannot sort of control, I guess, what our competitor does. But if you look at the past, we have been competing with the similar set of competitor for quite a while. And even with the most intensive competition during the past few quarters, we are able to gain market share while improving our unit economics.

如果你看一下整體競爭格局，我們在過去幾季看到了更穩定的競爭格局。再說一遍，我想我們無法控制競爭對手的行為。但如果你回顧過去，我們已經與類似的競爭對手競爭相當長一段時間了。即使在過去幾季競爭最激烈的情況下，我們仍然能夠在提高單位經濟效益的同時獲得市場份額。

[We] are contributing by a few factors. I think number one is we are a clear market leader in the market. This translates to the economic scale, benefiting by both having a better monetization capability and also better cost efficiencies. And if you look at the scale, we are in a much better position now compared with 1 year ago. We do believe that we have gained market share in Indonesia if you compare the beginning of the year, or last year and now.

[我們]的貢獻有幾個因素。我認為第一是我們是市場上明顯的市場領導者。這轉化為經濟規模，受益於更好的貨幣化能力和更好的成本效率。如果你看一下規模，我們現在的處境比一年前好得多。如果你比較年初、去年和現在，我們確實相信我們已經在印尼獲得了市場份額。

The second one is, I do believe that we have a strong local leadership team and operating team to execute on what we set up to execute and also make the right judgment based on [reaching] the market. I spent probably most of my time -- if you compare all countries, I spent most time in Indonesia. And many of our management team, including myself, learn to speak Bahasa Indonesia over time as well to understand the market better.

第二個是，我確實相信我們擁有強大的本地領導團隊和營運團隊來執行我們設定的執行任務，並根據[到達]市場做出正確的判斷。我可能大部分時間都花在了——如果你比較所有國家，我大部分時間都花在印尼。我們的許多管理團隊，包括我自己，隨著時間的推移也學習說印尼語，以便更好地了解市場。

Number three is we have built infrastructure for the market over time. For example, our logistic coverage in Indonesia has been a lot larger than before. Our cost has reduced significantly over the past few quarters for shipping one order. Also, the quality has been improved.

第三，隨著時間的推移，我們已經為市場建立了基礎設施。例如，我們在印尼的物流覆蓋範圍比以前擴大了很多。在過去幾個季度中，我們的一個訂單的運輸成本已顯著降低。此外，品質也提高了。

But most importantly, by having our own logistics in the market, are able -- enabling us to offer differentiated services. If you follow the market closely, we have recently started the return-on-the-spot for the users, which has very good feedback not only for Indonesia, but also for Vietnam. We also started a differentiated return service that we are going to allow the user to ask for return anytime during the shipping process, and we can intersect the orders even during the shipping, which is not offered by any other one in the market so far.

但最重要的是，透過在市場上擁有自己的物流，我們能夠提供差異化的服務。如果你密切關注市場的話，我們最近開始了對用戶的現場回訪，不僅對印尼，對越南也有很好的回饋。我們還推出了差異化退貨服務，我們將允許用戶在運輸過程中隨時要求退貨，並且即使在運輸過程中我們也可以交叉訂單，這是目前市場上其他任何一家都沒有提供的。

The -- and also on top of that, we have our strong integration with our digital financial services businesses. This not only enabled us to reduce the cost of transactions, for example, on the payment side, but also allow us to untap a [sizeable] potential by offering the SPaylater to a broader segment that we have never seen in the market before. All of this helped us not only to reduce costs but increase the conversions in the market.

除此之外，我們也與數位金融服務業務進行了強而有力的整合。這不僅使我們能夠降低支付方面的交易成本，而且還使我們能夠透過向市場上從未見過的更廣泛的細分市場提供 SPaylater 來挖掘[相當大的]潛力。所有這些不僅幫助我們降低了成本，還提高了市場轉換率。

We've been doing all this in the past few quarters. And we do believe across all dimensions we are able to do better over this year so that -- even with whatever competitive landscape that we are facing, we are able to outperform our competitor in the market, be more efficient in the market. I think that's kind of like how we see the market so far and how this is going to evolve in the future.

我們在過去幾個季度一直在做這一切。我們確實相信，今年我們能夠在各個方面做得更好，這樣，即使我們面臨任何競爭格局，我們也能夠在市場上超越我們的競爭對手，提高市場效率。我認為這有點像我們迄今為止對市場的看法以及未來將如何發展。

In terms of the margins, as we shared in the opening, we believe that the overall businesses for Shopee were able to breakeven in the second half of the year, while with the intention to at least maintain our current market share in the market, and this applied to Indonesia as well. I think, as I shared earlier, compared to 1 year ago, we gained sizable market shares, and we are going to execute even better over this year given the foundations we built during the last year.

就利潤率而言，正如我們在開場所分享的，我們相信Shopee的整體業務能夠在下半年實現盈虧平衡，同時至少維持我們目前的市場份額，而這也適用於印尼。我認為，正如我之前分享的那樣，與一年前相比，我們獲得了相當大的市場份額，考慮到我們去年建立的基礎，我們今年的表現將會更好。

On top of what I mentioned just now in terms of all the things we are doing, there are a couple of other things we are doing further even over the year. One is the price competitiveness. We do believe we are the most price competitive platform in the market as you can do benchmark externally. We're going to deep dive on that even further over the year, in particular for -- not only for individuals, but for the other markets as well. But yes, Indonesia is the key market for us.

除了我剛才提到的我們正在做的所有事情之外，一年中我們還在進一步做一些其他事情。一是價格競爭力。我們確實相信我們是市場上最具價格競爭力的平台，因為您可以在外部進行基準測試。我們將在今年進一步深入研究這個問題，特別是不僅針對個人，而且針對其他市場。但是，印尼是我們的主要市場。

We're also going to further drive the service qualities I shared earlier, not only on the logistics, but also on the after [procurement], like the [return response] services, the customer service quality, et cetera. And all this will essentially put us into an even better position in the future, not only sort of maintaining our growth trajectory, but also improving our EBITDAs.

我們還將進一步提高我先前分享的服務質量，不僅是在物流方面，還包括在[採購]之後，例如[退貨回應]服務、客戶服務品質等等。所有這些本質上將使我們在未來處於更好的位置，不僅可以保持我們的成長軌跡，還可以提高我們的 EBITDA。

For the live stream that we talked about in the past earnings call, we are seeing quite a fast growth on the live stream in this quarter as well. As we shared in the opening, we have -- across the region we have -- about 15% of our orders come from live stream. For Indonesia, it's even bigger percentage. Indonesia is the first country we started. The -- in [Southern] market, we believe that we are probably the largest live stream platform in the market, not only the scales, but while [we're] growing it, we [have] reducing the [unit] economics quite significantly in the past few months and continue in Q1, essentially. This also enables us to compete effectively with our competitors and we should say different probably 1 year ago. If you look at 1 year ago, we probably don't have this ecosystem. We have to invest to build this ecosystem that -- we are now in a very different status for that.

對於我們在過去的財報電話會議中談到的直播，我們也看到本季的直播成長相當快。正如我們在開場時分享的那樣，我們——在整個地區——大約 15% 的訂單來自直播。對印尼來說，這一比例甚至更大。印尼是我們開始的第一個國家。 - 在[南方]市場，我們相信我們可能是市場上最大的直播平台，不僅是規模，而且在[我們]發展它的同時，我們[已經]降低了[單位]經濟效益過去幾個月顯著，並且基本上在第一季繼續。這也使我們能夠與我們的競爭對手進行有效競爭，我們應該說與一年前不同。如果你看看一年前，我們可能還沒有這個生態系統。我們必須投資建立這個生態系統——我們現在處於一個非常不同的狀態。

I think this sort of probably conclude on the first question for Shopee.

我想這大概可以回答 Shopee 的第一個問題了。

Moving to the second question on the SeaMoney EBITDA for Q4. So I think we probably should put into perspective on the overall SeaMoney businesses. The SeaMoney has seen the first positive profit in 2023, and the trajectory has been doing well if you look at Q1, Q2, Q3 and extend to Q4. We have seen very healthy margin in our SeaMoney businesses.

接下來是關於 SeaMoney 第四季 EBITDA 的第二個問題。所以我認為我們可能應該全面審視 SeaMoney 業務。 SeaMoney 在 2023 年首次實現正盈利，從第一季、第二季、第三季一直延伸到第四季度，其軌跡一直表現良好。我們的 SeaMoney 業務利潤率非常可觀。

And given the very healthy margin in the businesses, we -- in Q4, leveraging on this is relative. We spend -- we invest more to acquire new users to the platform. And this essentially will bring us a better profitability in long-term. We measure our user acquisition costs very prudently. Every user acquired will bring positive profit over the time.

鑑於業務利潤率非常健康，我們在第四季度利用這一點是相對的。我們投入更多資金來吸引平台的新用戶。從長遠來看，這本質上將為我們帶來更好的獲利能力。我們非常謹慎地衡量我們的用戶獲取成本。隨著時間的推移，獲得的每個用戶都會帶來正利潤。

Your next question comes from the line of Navin Killa from UBS.

您的下一個問題來自瑞銀集團 (UBS) 的 Navin Killa。

Actually, I had a couple of questions. First, I just wanted to understand a little bit about competition in the e-commerce space, particularly in the Indonesia, I suppose Q4 numbers might have benefited from the fact that TikTok was not in the market for a large part of the quarter. So since the relaunch of TikTok and as we probably come close to the end of the trial period, have you seen the intensity from the combined TikTok Tokopedia entity evolve in a different direction over the course of the quarter? So that's my question number one.

事實上，我有幾個問題。首先，我只是想了解一點關於電子商務領域的競爭，特別是在印度尼西亞，我認為第四季度的數據可能受益於 TikTok 在該季度的大部分時間裡都沒有進入市場這一事實。因此，自從 TikTok 重新推出以來，我們可能已經接近試用期結束，您是否看到合併後的 TikTok Tokopedia 實體的強度在本季度內向不同方向發展？這是我的第一個問題。

And second question, I guess, given the strong cash balance and your expectation of, I guess, positive profit for the full year for the group, how do we think about use and allocation of this cash going forward potentially for buybacks and other use cases?

我想，第二個問題是，考慮到強勁的現金餘額以及您對集團全年正利潤的預期，我們如何考慮未來可能用於回購和其他用例的現金的使用和分配？

For the first question, I think I shared quite a bit in the last answer as well. Generally, we compete with both competitors you mentioned for quite long period of time. And you are right that it does benefit us in some extent in Q4 that TikTok wasn't operating for the period of time -- for (inaudible) period of time during the quarter. But I don't think that's the only reason that we'd grow well in Q4. We have seen similar growth trends continue in Q1 as well. Even the landscape have changed.

對於第一個問題，我想我在上一個答案中也分享了很多內容。一般來說，我們與你提到的兩個競爭對手競爭了相當長的一段時間。你是對的，第四季度 TikTok 在該季度（聽不清楚）的一段時間內沒有運營，這確實在一定程度上使我們受益。但我認為這並不是我們在第四季取得良好成長的唯一原因。我們在第一季也看到了類似的成長趨勢。連風景都變了。

In a typical e-commerce transactions, as we can see across globally, it might not necessarily 1 plus 1, plus 2 -- greater than 2 situations. I think for us, the most important thing is to focus on what we are great at. As I mentioned earlier, our scale advantage, our local leadership and operating teams, our[investments] build over time, our integration with DFS and all this gave us the competitive advantage in the past few quarters, as you can see, and will continue to give us the advantage in the coming quarters. The -- and with that, I think we have shared that we have -- we're expecting a good growth for Shopee over this coming year in 2024 and in the coming quarters.

在典型的電子商務交易中，正如我們在全球範圍內看到的那樣，不一定是1加1、加2——大於2的情況。我認為對我們來說，最重要的是專注於我們擅長的事情。正如我之前提到的，我們的規模優勢、我們的本地領導力和營運團隊、我們隨著時間的推移而建立的[投資]、我們與DFS 的整合，所有這些都給了我們過去幾個季度的競爭優勢，正如您所看到的，並將繼續為我們在未來幾季帶來優勢。我想我們已經分享了這一點——我們預計 Shopee 在 2024 年和未來幾季將實現良好成長。

And regarding our cash balance, we think for a company of our size, it's prudent to maintain a strong cash balance. And we're also very disciplined and focused in deploying our capital to capture future opportunities to maximize our long-term shareholder return. We do not rule out any options for using our cash balance in this regard.

關於我們的現金餘額，我們認為對於我們這樣規模的公司來說，保持強勁的現金餘額是謹慎的做法。我們也非常自律，專注於部署我們的資本，以抓住未來的機會，從而最大限度地提高我們的長期股東回報。我們不排除在這方面使用我們的現金餘額的任何選擇。

Your next question comes from the line of Alicia from Citigroup.

您的下一個問題來自花旗集團的艾莉西亞。

Congrats on the solid results. I have 2 questions. First is that, obviously, with the Ramadan coming, do you anticipate your competitors in Indonesia to further step up the spending? And in the event, if your competitors in Indonesia are catching up on the market share, would you step up your spending that might actually prevent your EBITDA to regain profitability in the second half of this year?

祝賀取得了紮實的成果。我有 2 個問題。首先，顯然，隨著齋月的到來，您預計印尼的競爭對手會進一步增加支出嗎？如果您在印尼的競爭對手正在追趕市場份額，您是否會增加支出，這實際上可能會阻止您的 EBITDA 在今年下半年恢復盈利？

Second question is, what are the main reasons for your confidence in growing the Free Fire in double-digit in booking [and] user this year? What have you done or plan to do to regain your user traction and monetization?

第二個問題是，您有信心今年 Free Fire 的預訂[和]用戶成長兩位數的主要原因是什麼？您已經採取或計劃採取哪些措施來重新獲得用戶吸引力和貨幣化？

For the first question, so in a way, Ramadan [I think] has started already in Indonesia. We have -- we are comfortable with what we're seeing so far, let's put this way. So in a way, we cannot see market share as a [set in] number. Market share is always dynamic. And the most important for us is to make sure that we always have a sizable leadership compared to our next competitor so that we can sustain our scale advantage and -- that's number one.

對於第一個問題，在某種程度上，齋月[我認為]已經在印尼開始了。我們對目前所看到的情況感到滿意，這麼說吧。因此，在某種程度上，我們不能將市場佔有率視為一個數字。市場佔有率始終是動態的。對我們來說，最重要的是確保與下一個競爭對手相比，我們始終擁有相當大的領先地位，以便我們能夠維持我們的規模優勢——這是第一位的。

Number two is, we are able to build up our long-term moat compared to competitors who are more efficient when we compete with the competitor in the market. I think, again, as I said earlier, given all the things we have done, even with the most intensive competition in the past few quarters, we are able to reduce our costs while increase our market shares. I think this reflects of the moat we have been over time, and we do believe that we'll be able to continue in the future.

第二是，當我們與市場上的競爭對手競爭時，與效率更高的競爭對手相比，我們能夠建立長期的護城河。我再次認為，正如我之前所說，鑑於我們所做的所有事情，即使在過去幾季競爭最激烈的情況下，我們也能夠降低成本，同時增加市場佔有率。我認為這反映了我們長期以來的護城河，我們相信我們將來能夠繼續下去。

And regarding Free Fire, as we shared earlier, we are encouraged by the positive trends we have seen so far this year in terms of active user base and monetization across our various markets. As a result, we share that our current expectation is [for the] [game] to achieve double-digit year-on-year growth for both user base and bookings. As a self-developed game, Free Fire also enjoys better margin for us.

至於《Free Fire》，正如我們之前分享的那樣，我們對今年迄今為止在各個市場的活躍用戶群和貨幣化方面所看到的積極趨勢感到鼓舞。因此，我們目前的預期是[遊戲]用戶群和預訂量實現兩位數的年增長。作為一款自主研發的遊戲，《Free Fire》也為我們帶來了更好的利潤。

In terms of what we have done and will do in the future, I think our focus has been quite consistent. It's on building better user experience such as easy access to our users, file download size and data requirements, introducing more engaging content and strengthen exports communities to further develop the game into a strong evergreen franchise.

從我們已經做的事情和未來要做的事情來看，我認為我們的重點是非常一致的。它致力於打造更好的用戶體驗，例如輕鬆存取我們的用戶、文件下載大小和數據要求、引入更具吸引力的內容並加強出口社區，以進一步將遊戲發展成為強大的常青特許經營權。

Your next question comes from the line of Piyush Choudhary from HSBC.

您的下一個問題來自匯豐銀行的 Piyush Choudhary。

Congratulations to the management team on great set of results. First question is on Shopee. If I annualize your fourth quarter GMV, that itself is implying around 18% year-on-year growth in 2024 GMV. So why does company expect to grow only high-teens range and not more than that? What is driving conservative guidance? And also for Shopee EBITDA, as you expect to turn profitable in second half, would it mean that on a full year basis, adjusted losses for Shopee would narrow year-on-year in '24?

祝賀管理團隊取得了一系列出色的成果。第一個問題是關於Shopee的。如果我將第四季的 GMV 年化，這本身就意味著 2024 年 GMV 年比成長 18% 左右。那麼，為什麼公司預計只成長十幾歲範圍而不是更多？是什麼推動了保守指導？另外，對於 Shopee EBITDA 而言，您預計下半年將實現盈利，這是否意味著從全年來看，Shopee 的調整後虧損將在 24 年同比收窄？

Secondly, on gaming, what led to fourth quarter quarterly pay users decline despite a strong seasonality? And your outlook for Free Fire is strong. Would that mean console Garena will also grow double-digit? And what's the margin outlook for Garena business?

其次，在遊戲方面，儘管季節性很強，但什麼導致第四季付費用戶下降？您對《Free Fire》的前景十分看好。這是否意味著遊戲機 Garena 也將實現兩位數成長？ Garena 業務的利潤前景如何？

I think for -- in terms of the guidance we gave out, I think the high-teens for the year. We believe that it's a reasonable estimate we've given out based on both the market growth rate and also the EBITDA goal we set up to achieve. And on top of that, the most important thing is, with this we are able to sustain our market leadership while building up all the competitive moat that we've been building over the past years. On top of that, even started the other new initiatives during the year. So we are comfortable with what it is. In a way, we are not chasing [for growth -- for the growth]. We are trying to grow in an efficient and prudent fashion with the long-term profitability in mind.

我認為 - 就我們給予的指導而言，我認為今年的目標是高青少年。我們相信，根據市場成長率以及我們要實現的 EBITDA 目標，我們給出的估計是合理的。最重要的是，最重要的是，透過這一點，我們能夠維持我們的市場領導地位，同時建立我們過去幾年一直在建立的所有競爭護城河。除此之外，年內也啟動了其他新措施。所以我們對它的現狀感到滿意。某種程度上，我們並不是追逐[為了成長－為了成長]。我們正在努力以高效、審慎的方式發展，並著眼於長期獲利能力。

The -- in terms of the second question, whether the full year will narrow over time, I think this is something we haven't given a guidance on. We probably wouldn't comment too detail on that. But generally, I think what we set to achieve again is to have Shopee as an overall business breakeven over the second half of the year.

關於第二個問題，全年的收入是否會隨著時間的推移而縮小，我認為這是我們尚未給出的指導。我們可能不會對此發表太詳細的評論。但總的來說，我認為我們再次實現的目標是讓 Shopee 在下半年實現整體業務收支平衡。

Regarding Free Fire, I think the quarter-on-quarter user fluctuation can be many reasons, including seasonality and game launch for Garena as a whole or e-sports events. But for Free Fire overall, I think we are -- we have -- as shared earlier, we are very positive based on the trends we have seen so far. And therefore, we want to give market some indication of what we also have seen.

關於Free Fire，我認為季度環比用戶波動可能有很多原因，包括季節性和Garena整體遊戲發布或電子競技賽事。但對於《Free Fire》總體而言，我認為我們——我們已經——正如之前分享的那樣，根據迄今為止所看到的趨勢，我們非常樂觀。因此，我們希望向市場提供一些我們所看到的跡象。

Regarding the rest of our portfolio which are up -- third-party games published by us, we will continue also to work closely with our partners to bring more content to our game [communities] as well.

對於我們剩下的產品組合—我們發布的第三方遊戲，我們也將繼續與我們的合作夥伴密切合作，為我們的遊戲[社群]帶來更多內容。

Your next question comes from the line of Thomas Chong from Jefferies.

您的下一個問題來自 Jefferies 的 Thomas Chong。

Congratulations on a strong set of results. My question is, first, on Shopee. Just then we are looking for adjusted EBITDA to breakeven in the second half and we have built up our competitive moat. I just want to ask about in terms of the take rate trend for Shopee in 2024, how should we think about the advertising and the commission trend? That's number one.

祝賀取得了一系列強勁的成果。我的問題首先是關於Shopee。就在那時，我們正在尋求調整後的 EBITDA 在下半年實現盈虧平衡，並且我們已經建立了我們的競爭護城河。我只是想問一下，從2024年Shopee的成交率趨勢來看，我們該如何看待廣告和佣金趨勢？這是第一名。

And then number two, on the fintech side, given the strong growth momentum that we are seeing, I just want to get some color with respect to our user acquisition strategies. What kind of channel are we getting new user other than the organic one? And on that one, how are we thinking about the loan -- performing loans expectations as a percentage of our loan book? How is our technology or our data insights which can make it at a low level?

第二，在金融科技方面，鑑於我們看到的強勁成長勢頭，我只想了解我們的用戶獲取策略。除了自然管道之外，我們還透過哪些管道獲得新用戶？在這一點上，我們如何看待貸款——執行貸款預期占我們貸款帳簿的百分比？我們的技術或我們的數據洞察力如何才能使其處於較低水平？

On the first question regarding the take rate trend, as you have seen that we have adjusted our commission side continuously over the past few quarters, we are actually [review it] every month in terms of what makes sense for our user base in terms of commissions. I think overall, the most important thing is we want to make sure there's a healthy ecosystem that our seller has a reasonable margin to operate, but also are able to support the overall marketplace to grow healthily. So we will probably see some adjustment on the commissions over the year. Some of them can be for specific categories, some of them for specific countries. The -- yes, I think it's probably going to be fine tuning, I guess over the year.

關於採用率趨勢的第一個問題，正如您所看到的，我們在過去幾個季度中不斷調整我們的佣金方面，我們實際上每個月都會[審查]，以了解對我們的用戶群來說有意義的方面佣金。我認為總的來說，最重要的是我們希望確保有一個健康的生態系統，我們的賣家有合理的營運利潤，但也能夠支持整個市場的健康發展。因此，今年我們可能會看到佣金有所調整。其中一些可以針對特定類別，其中一些可以針對特定國家/地區。 - 是的，我認為這一年可能會進行微調。

On the second part, on the take rate, we do believe that in a sizeable potential on the [ADS] side for the take rate compared to many global peers, we still have a sizable room to grow there. And we have done quite a few technical revamps in the past few months, and this will be deployed and fine tuned in the coming quarter, which will enable us to further grow our [Ad] take rate.

關於第二部分，關於採用率，我們確實相信，與許多全球同行相比，[ADS]方面的採用率潛力巨大，我們仍然有相當大的成長空間。在過去的幾個月裡，我們已經進行了相當多的技術改造，這將在下個季度進行部署和微調，這將使我們能夠進一步提高我們的[廣告]採用率。

The second question regarding the SeaMoney growth. If you look at the SeaMoney, the majority of our business are in the credit business at this point in time. Of course, we also have digital banks and insurance but still in the relatively growing stage. There are a few passes we're looking at here. One is to further penetrate our Shopee ecosystem through our Shopee PayLater. The penetration of our e-commerce platform still has a slight room to grow. We started Indonesia first and other countries later. Even for our earliest market, we still see a potential to further penetrate the user base. I think -- that's the first one.

關於 SeaMoney 成長的第二個問題。如果你看看 SeaMoney，我們的大部分業務目前都在信貸業務。當然，我們也有數位銀行、數位保險，但仍處於相對成長期。我們在這裡查看一些通行證。一是透過我們的 Shopee PayLater 進一步滲透我們的 Shopee 生態系統。我們的電子商務平台的滲透率仍有輕微的成長空間。我們先開始印度尼西亞，然後再開始其他國家。即使對於我們最早的市場，我們仍然看到了進一步滲透用戶群的潛力。我認為——這是第一個。

Second one is we also believe that outside of the Shopee ecosystem, there are many users that we can onboard to our digital finance platforms. This is still in a very early stage as we started much later than penetrating the Shopee ecosystem, but I think -- essentially, I think you can imagine that in a big country like Indonesia where credit card penetration are relatively small, single-digit stage, we are probably the first one that are able to offer a credit service to the broader mass market. And of course, this helped by the Shopee penetration in the mass market, but there are still many other users out of the Shopee ecosystem in the mass market that we believe that we can target on. And of course, there are many channels to do that. We have offline [QRIS] payment. We have a very product-based, (inaudible) based consumption loans that we are working on, which is not uncommon in many other markets. So that's another part of the equations in the credit businesses.

第二，我們也相信，在 Shopee 生態系統之外，我們可以將許多用戶納入我們的數位金融平台。這仍處於非常早期的階段，因為我們的起步比滲透Shopee 生態系統要晚得多，但我認為，本質上，我認為你可以想像，在像印度尼西亞這樣信用卡滲透率相對較小的大國，處於個位數階段，我們可能是第一個能夠向更廣泛的大眾市場提供信貸服務的公司。當然，這要歸功於 Shopee 在大眾市場的滲透，但在大眾市場中，Shopee 生態系統之外還有許多其他用戶，我們相信我們可以瞄準這些用戶。當然，有很多管道可以做到這一點。我們有離線[QRIS]付款。我們正在開發一種非常基於產品、（聽不清楚）的消費貸款，這在許多其他市場並不罕見。這是信貸業務方程式的另一部分。

The third equation in the credit businesses is to cross-sell after your financial products to our Shopee PayLater user base. I think you asked about NPL as well. The great thing for our business is -- here is that given the data we have from the e-commerce transaction and also over years, we built up the external data besides our Shopee ecosystem that we are able to credit rate user a lot more efficiently and effectively.

信貸業務的第三個等式是將您的金融產品交叉銷售給我們的 Shopee PayLater 用戶群。我想你也問過 NPL 的問題。對於我們的業務來說，最偉大的事情是——考慮到我們從電子商務交易中獲得的數據，多年來，我們除了Shopee 生態系統之外還建立了外部數據，我們能夠更有效地對用戶進行信用評級且有效。

And if the user onboarded to our Shopee PayLater platform, we have even better credit data based on their Shopee PayLater performance. This will enable us to sell down many other credit products over time. For example, we mentioned earlier on the cash loans that we offer to the users, which unlock more use case. Basically, user can use the credit for many other use cases besides the Shopee scenarios and other products we are [rolling] out over time.

如果用戶加入我們的 Shopee PayLater 平台，我們就會根據他們的 Shopee PayLater 表現獲得更好的信用數據。隨著時間的推移，這將使我們能夠出售許多其他信貸產品。例如，我們之前提到我們向用戶提供的現金貸款，這可以解鎖更多用例。基本上，除了 Shopee 場景和我們隨著時間的推移推出的其他產品之外，用戶還可以將積分用於許多其他用例。

And I think the -- as we grow, this will -- the scale will also enable us to lower down the cost of service as well. So the economics can be even better. As time goes, this will go to a [positive] cycle that we have a cost-to-serve -- better cost-to-serve, better risk management so that we can -- we are able to target even broader segment in the market, so we can grow even further in the market. I think that's probably how we look at the growth side of the story.

我認為，隨著我們的發展，規模也將使我們能夠降低服務成本。因此，經濟效益可能會更好。隨著時間的推移，這將進入一個[正]循環，我們有一個服務成本——更好的服務成本、更好的風險管理，這樣我們就能夠——我們能夠瞄準更廣泛的細分市場市場，因此我們可以在市場上進一步發展。我認為這可能是我們看待故事增長的方式。

On the NPL side, we are seeing a relatively stable NPL, as Tony has shared in the opening, over the time. Of course, there's -- that's based on the -- number one, the data we have, as I mentioned in the first -- in the previous descriptions. But also because -- I do believe that we have probably the best, if not one of the best credit modeling team in South Asia to utilize the data to be able to credit rate our users.

在不良貸款方面，正如托尼在開場時所分享的那樣，隨著時間的推移，我們看到不良貸款相對穩定。當然，這是基於——第一，我們擁有的數據，正如我在第一個描述中提到的那樣。但也因為——我確實相信，我們可能擁有南亞最好的（如果不是最好的）信用建模團隊之一，可以利用這些數據對我們的用戶進行信用評級。

On top of that, it's also about how we measure this overall. We measure this in a very prudent way. [But] we are not rushing [for growth -- for the growth]. We want to make sure that our financial service businesses not only have a proper business now, but have a proper business in the very long-term, even in the credit cycle situations. So putting all these things together, we will probably see a pretty high -- pretty good upside for our financial service businesses. And 2024, we would like to further grow our user base and maintain our credit risk in the market.

最重要的是，這也與我們如何整體衡量這一點有關。我們以非常謹慎的方式衡量這一點。 [但是]我們並不急於[為了成長－為了成長]。我們希望確保我們的金融服務業務不僅現在有正常的業務，而且從長遠來看，即使在信貸週期的情況下也有正常的業務。因此，將所有這些因素放在一起，我們可能會看到我們的金融服務業務具有相當高的、相當好的上升空間。到 2024 年，我們希望進一步擴大我們的用戶群並維持我們在市場上的信用風險。

Your next question comes from the line of Sachin Salgaonkar from Bank of America.

您的下一個問題來自美國銀行的 Sachin Salgaonkar。

I have 2 questions. First question, if you could help get a bit more clarity on improving unit economics at live streaming? Can you give some color in terms of the difference between normal e-commerce and live streaming in terms of AOV, the margin perspective? And also any thoughts on steady state EBITDA margin at live streaming?

我有 2 個問題。第一個問題，您是否可以幫助我們更清楚地了解如何提高直播的單位經濟效益？您能否從AOV（利潤率角度）方面對普通電子商務和直播之間的差異進行一些說明？對直播中的穩態 EBITDA 利潤率有何想法？

Second question, I also wanted to understand a bit more on Free Fire, i.e., is the expected launch of India baked in the expectation of a double-digit growth? And are there any specific markets which is driving your optimism in terms of overall growth?

第二個問題，我還想了解更多關於Free Fire的信息，即印度的預期推出是否是基於兩位數增長的預期？是否有任何特定市場讓您對整體成長持樂觀態度？

In terms of unit economic for live stream, it has improved significantly in the past few months. Of course, at this point in time, comparing to the non-live stream part, it has a lower economics simply because we just started, and it takes some effort to invest for the growth. But we do believe in the long-term, the live stream [profitability] wouldn't be too different, will be quite similar to what we see in the other part of the marketplace platform.

從直播的單位經濟效益來看，過去幾個月有了顯著改善。當然，在這個時間點上，相對於非直播部分來說，它的經濟效益較低，因為我們剛剛起步，需要付出一些努力來實現成長。但我們確實相信，從長遠來看，直播[獲利能力]不會有太大不同，將與我們在市場平台其他部分看到的非常相似。

In terms of the AOV that you asked earlier, we started live stream with a low AOV compared to the marketplace. As time goes, it will start to converge. And now in some market it's very similar, some markets even a little bit higher, some markets bit lower. So it is mix at this stage. But eventually, in the big market, it will converge as time goes. In the smaller market, it might have different variations, but I don't think it's significant for the purpose of discussion here.

就您之前詢問的 AOV 而言，與市場相比，我們以較低的 AOV 開始進行直播。隨著時間的推移，它將開始收斂。現在在某些市場上情況非常相似，有些市場甚至更高一點，有些市場更低一點。所以這個階段是混合的。但最終，在大市場中，隨著時間的推移，它會趨同。在較小的市場中，它可能有不同的變化，但我認為這對於這裡討論的目的來說並不重要。

And regarding Free Fire, the -- so far, the positive trends we have seen across various different markets for our global operations. And currently, no material development in India. We are still making changes to the Free Fire India to best accommodate our preference -- users' preference locally, and we'll update the market when there's more material development.

關於《Free Fire》，到目前為止，我們在全球營運的各個不同市場都看到了正面的趨勢。目前，印度沒有任何實質進展。我們仍在對 Free Fire India 進行更改，以最好地適應我們的偏好（本地用戶的偏好），當有更多材料開發時，我們將更新市場。

Our next question comes from the line of Jiong Shao from Barclays.

我們的下一個問題來自巴克萊銀行的邵炯。

My first question is about your growth trend in the near term. You -- has return back to growth over 20% for the first time in the last 1.5 years. You changed your strategy a couple of times during that period. Usually, this kind of momentum doesn't sort of change very quickly. So based on what you are seeing and also given what you have said so far about Indonesia, could you talk about your near term growth momentum right now in the first quarter? Should we expect sort of similar to what you saw in Q4?

我的第一個問題是關於你們近期的成長趨勢。過去 1.5 年來，您的成長率首次恢復到 20% 以上。在此期間，您多次改變了策略。通常，這種勢頭不會很快改變。因此，根據您所看到的情況以及您迄今為止對印尼的看法，您能否談談第一季的近期成長動能？我們是否應該期待與您在第四季度看到的情況類似？

My second question is about your sort of the mix between core marketplace and the VAS. I know you talked about the VAS, which is the logistics sort of decline year-over-year, was at least partially, [not] mostly due to the subsidies for shipping. But over the last few quarters, it looks like your core marketplace growth has been very, very good, right? It's 30%, 40% and your VAS growth has been relatively low, very low and negative in Q4. Other than the subsidies, are there other reasons behind -- or strategic reasons behind these pretty meaningful differences? And if you add subsidies back, would the VAS growth [be] somewhat similar to your core marketplace growth?

我的第二個問題是關於核心市場和增值服務之間的組合。我知道你談到了增值服務，即物流同比下降，至少部分是由於運輸補貼造成的，而不是主要是由於運輸補貼。但在過去的幾個季度中，看起來你們的核心市場成長非常非常好，對吧？這是 30%、40%，您的 VAS 成長在第四季度相對較低、非常低且為負值。除了補貼之外，這些相當有意義的差異背後是否還有其他原因或策略原因？如果您重新增加補貼，增值服務的成長是否與您的核心市場成長有些相似？

I think for the growth trend for the near term, I think we have seen pretty good growth in Q1. I mean you probably can see from the external data as well, although it's not very accurate. The -- but bear in mind that Q1, there's a Ramadan season for Indonesia in particular, and we have [Chinese] New Year in some other markets. So we do take -- we have to take into the consideration for seasonality. But yes -- but all in all, we see -- we're pretty happy with what we see in Q1 so far.

我認為就近期的成長趨勢而言，我認為我們在第一季看到了相當不錯的成長。我的意思是你可能也可以從外部資料中看到，儘管它不是很準確。但請記住，第一季度，特別是印尼有齋戒月季節，而我們在其他一些市場也有[中國]新年。所以我們確實必須考慮季節性。但是，是的 - 但總而言之，我們看到 - 我們對迄今為止第一季所看到的情況非常滿意。

On the VAS versus core marketplace, I would encourage you to look at the core marketplace more closely to measure our overall platform growth as well as monetization. The reason for VAS top line growth to deviate from that is because of accounting treatment that has the contra revenue effect caused by shipping subsidies. So that actually does not only affect the bottom line, but also affect the top line for that revenue segment, causing a departure in overall trend.

關於加值服務與核心市場，我鼓勵您更仔細地關注核心市場，以衡量我們的整體平台成長和貨幣化。增值服務收入成長偏離這一點的原因是會計處理具有航運補貼造成的對沖收入效應。因此，這實際上不僅影響利潤，也影響該收入部分的頂線，導致整體趨勢的背離。

We cannot discuss the non-GAAP revenue -- adjusted revenue, but if you add that back, I think the overall growth is consistent with the platform growth.

我們無法討論非公認會計準則收入——調整後的收入，但如果你把它加回來，我認為整體成長與平台成長是一致的。

Your next question comes from the line of Ranjan Sharma from JPMorgan Singapore.

您的下一個問題來自摩根大通新加坡公司的 Ranjan Sharma。

Two questions from my side. Firstly, for Chris on live streaming. Is there any cohort analysis that the team has done on the impact to live stream and GMV as incentives are a move for buyers?

我這邊有兩個問題。首先是克里斯的直播。團隊是否對直播和 GMV 的影響進行過隊列分析，因為激勵措施是對買家的一種舉措？

And the second question is for Forrest. On Garena, still the discussion is around Free Fire, but are there any developments to move away from a single titled franchise to a more broader studio?

第二個問題是問福瑞斯特的。在 Garena 上，討論仍然圍繞著《Free Fire》，但是是否有任何進展可以從單一的特許經營權轉向更廣泛的工作室？

For the live stream on the cohort, yes, we do look at the cohort for live stream, and we're seeing pretty good retention and repurchase rates for live stream. But on top of that, I think more importantly for us, actually for live stream is we have seen very good new user percentage coming to live stream, which means that it does help us to reach out to a segment that we might not complete -- reach out to before, which help us to grow the marketplace further as time goes. And the -- we also observed that the new user coming from -- coming to live stream also cross purchase from the long live stream platform as well. I think these are the encouraging signs we see. And that's also how actually we have been reducing our -- improving our economics in the past few months.

對於隊列中的直播，是的，我們確實關注了直播隊列，並且我們看到直播的留存率和復購率相當不錯。但最重要的是，我認為對我們來說更重要的是，實際上對於直播來說，我們已經看到非常好的新用戶比例進入直播，這意味著它確實幫助我們觸及了我們可能無法完成的細分市場 - - 與先前的人員接觸，這有助於我們隨著時間的推移進一步發展市場。我們也觀察到，來自直播的新用戶也從長直播平台交叉購買。我認為這些是我們看到的令人鼓舞的跡象。這也是過去幾個月我們實際上一直在減少——改善我們的經濟狀況的方式。

Yes. Regarding Garena, I think Garena is definitely not a single franchise platform. We have multiple titles, both self-developed and published across different genres, including Battle Royale, MOBA, sports, casual, RPG, et cetera. It's just that the super successful Free Fire franchise seems to [dwarf] in comparison the other titles, which are also highly successful and very long-lasting for Garena so far, thanks to our global team's very strong operations and ability to build a strong pipeline in content, in partnership with our partners as well as self-development and also in growing our global e-sports communities.

是的。關於Garena，我認為Garena絕對不是一個單一的特許經營平台。我們擁有多款自主開發發行的遊戲，涵蓋不同類型，包括大逃殺、MOBA、運動、休閒、角色扮演等。只是，與其他遊戲相比，超級成功的《Free Fire》系列似乎顯得“相形見絀”，而到目前為止，這些遊戲對Garena 來說也非常成功且持久，這要歸功於我們全球團隊非常強大的運營和建立強大管道的能力在內容方面，與我們的合作夥伴合作以及自我發展方面，以及發展我們的全球電子競技社群方面。

I think that being said, we -- as always, we're very focused on building future pipeline in terms of expanding our portfolio of genres and type of content, including more user-generated content, deploy more AI tools in building -- in [furthering] new models of interaction with our users. All of these things are going on in the background that our teams have been very much focused on. So we are very excited about the long-term prospects of Garena, again, as a leading global game company.

我認為話雖這麼說，我們一如既往地非常注重構建未來的管道，擴大我們的流派和內容類型組合，包括更多用戶生成的內容，在構建中部署更多人工智能工具。[進一步] 與用戶互動的新模式。所有這些事情都是在我們團隊非常關注的背景下發生的。因此，我們對 Garena 作為全球領先遊戲公司的長期前景感到非常興奮。

Your final question comes from the line of Ellie Jiang from Macquarie.

你的最後一個問題來自麥格理的Ellie Jiang。

I just have kind of few questions on the e-commerce side. Just now management, you talked about our price competitiveness. Just wondering how do we maintain this level of supply chain sustainability and how do we see our merchants general overlap compared to the other e-commerce app in Indonesia?

我只是有一些關於電子商務方面的問題。剛才管理層您談到了我們的價格競爭力。只是想知道我們如何保持這種水平的供應鏈可持續性，以及與印尼的其他電子商務應用程式相比，我們如何看待我們的商家普遍重疊？

Also, in a slightly longer term, what is the end game for, I guess, overall e-commerce dynamics? And how do we really evaluate longer-term profitability level on the EBITDA?

另外，從長遠來看，我猜整體電子商務動態的最終結果是什麼？我們如何真正評估 EBITDA 的長期獲利水準？

Yes. I think -- for the price competitors, I think as a platform we are generally [most] competitive in the market, as you can benchmark from internal numbers. The key to sustain product competitiveness are from few angles. And number one is we have the scale. So scale does bring advantage. So assuming that the same seller sell 100 items, our platform sell 10 on the other platforms, clearly, we have a slightly better [banking] power in terms of how much price that can be set. I think that's number one.

是的。我認為，對於價格競爭對手來說，我認為作為一個平台，我們通常在市場上最具競爭力，就像您可以根據內部數據進行基準測試一樣。保持產品競爭力的關鍵在於幾個角度。第一是我們有規模。所以規模確實帶來了優勢。因此，假設同一個賣家銷售 100 件商品，我們的平台在其他平台上銷售 10 件，顯然，我們在可以設定多少價格方面擁有稍微更好的[銀行]權力。我認為這是第一。

Number two is the cost-to-serve from a seller perspective. The -- we would like to make this -- the process for a seller to transact, to make that business successful on our platform much simpler compared to the other platforms, that come with the tools, policy and the fundamental concept of how the marketplace operates.

第二是從賣家角度來看的服務成本。我們希望為賣家提供一個交易流程，使該業務在我們的平台上取得成功，與其他平台相比要簡單得多，該平台附帶工具、政策和市場運作的基本概念運作。

I think the third one is to be able to identify the right skills, right sellers through our traffic allocation algorithms and policies, of course. It's about how can we make sure the sellers with a good performance and with a good price competitiveness will be presented -- will be rewarded with the better traffic on our platform. So we can sell more so they can reduce the price further because the scale they achieved. And they can also reduce the operation to -- operation cost to serve the customers and then this will flow to a very positive direction and the win-win for everybody from the -- both buyer and seller perspective. I think that's probably on the price competitive side.

我認為第三個當然是能夠透過我們的流量分配演算法和策略來識別合適的技能、合適的賣家。這是關於我們如何確保具有良好業績和良好價格競爭力的賣家將在我們的平台上獲得更好的流量。因此，我們可以銷售更多產品，這樣他們就可以根據他們所達到的規模進一步降低價格。他們還可以降低營運成本來為客戶提供服務，然後這將朝著非常積極的方向發展，從買方和賣方的角度來看，這對每個人都是雙贏的。我認為這可能是在價格競爭方面。

Just to add to that, I think another part of price competitiveness is to be able to different -- to offer differential services to different type of selling in the platform. There are sellers who operate the full value chain, there are sellers who are very specialized in part value chain, for example, on the production side or [whether] importing side. It's very important for us as a marketplace platform to serve this well -- to serve them well, to enable them to sell well on our platform so we can leverage on their strength rather than sort of they need to be better on everything, and it makes a bit harder for many of the sellers to excel in the platform. But again, there are a lot of detailed [operation] matters that we have to work on to make sure that this work out smoothly.

除此之外，我認為價格競爭力的另一部分是能夠與眾不同——為平台上不同類型的銷售提供差異化服務。有些賣家經營整個價值鏈，有些賣家非常專注於部分價值鏈，例如在生產或進口方面。作為一個市場平台，為我們提供良好的服務非常重要——為他們提供良好的服務，使他們能夠在我們的平台上賣得很好，這樣我們就可以利用他們的優勢，而不是他們需要在所有方面都做得更好，而且它這使得許多賣家在該平台上脫穎而出變得更加困難。但同樣，我們還有很多具體的[操作]事項需要處理，以確保這項工作順利進行。

I think that in terms of the long-term profitability, my feeling is that our market is not too different from the other major e-commerce platform that you have seen before. I think similar profit level that is reasonable. In some market a little bit better because of our market position, because of the nature of the retail margin in the market, some market might be a bit more competitive. But in general, we don't see our market too different compared to the other market and the market leader -- as a market leader in the platform. We will be able to achieve similar possibilities as a market leader in the other market.

我認為就長期盈利能力而言，我的感覺是我們的市場與您之前見過的其他主要電子商務平台沒有太大不同。我認為類似的利潤水平是合理的。由於我們的市場地位，由於市場零售利潤的性質，某些市場可能會更具競爭性。但總的來說，我們認為我們的市場與其他市場和市場領導者（作為平台的市場領導者）相比並沒有太大的不同。作為其他市場的市場領導者，我們將能夠實現類似的可能性。

This concludes our question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Ms. Min Ju Song for any closing remarks.

我們的問答環節到此結束。我想請宋敏菊女士發表閉幕詞。

Thank you all for joining today's call. We look forward to speaking to all of you again next quarter. Thank you.

感謝大家參加今天的電話會議。我們期待下季再次與大家交談。謝謝。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。