Sea Ltd (SE) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and good evening to all, and welcome to the Sea Limited Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2023 Results Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) And finally, I would like to advise all participants that this call is being recorded.

大家早安，晚上好，歡迎參加 Sea Limited 2023 年第四季和全年業績電話會議。 （操作員指示）最後，我想告知所有參與者，本次通話正在錄音。

Thank you. I'd now like to welcome Ms. Min Ju Song to begin the conference. Please go ahead.

謝謝。現在，我歡迎宋敏珠女士開始會議。請繼續。

Thank you, and hello, everyone, and welcome to Sea's 2023 fourth quarter and full year earnings conference call. I am Min Ju Song from Sea's Chief Corporate Officer's office.

謝謝大家，大家好，歡迎參加 Sea 2023 年第四季和全年財報電話會議。我是 Sea 公司首席公司長辦公室的 Min Ju Song。

Before we continue, I would like to remind you that we may make forward-looking statements which are [inherently] subject to risks and uncertainties and may not be realized in the future for various reasons as stated in our press release.

在我們繼續之前，我想提醒您，我們可能會做出前瞻性的陳述，這些陳述[固有]受風險和不確定性的影響，並且由於我們在新聞稿中所述的各種原因，可能無法在未來實現。

Also, this call includes the discussion of certain non-GAAP financial measures such as adjusted EBITDA. We believe these measures can enhance our investors' understanding of the actual cash flows of our major businesses when used as a complement to our GAAP disclosures. For discussion of the use of non-GAAP financial measures and reconciliation with the closest GAAP measures, please refer to the section on non-GAAP financial measures in our press release.

此外，本次電話會議也討論了某些非 GAAP 財務指標，例如調整後的 EBITDA。我們相信，這些指標作為我們 GAAP 揭露的補充，可以增強投資者對我們主要業務實際現金流的理解。有關非 GAAP 財務指標的使用以及與最接近的 GAAP 指標的調整的討論，請參閱我們新聞稿中有關非 GAAP 財務指標的部分。

I have with me Sea's Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Forrest Li; President, Chris Feng; Chief Financial Officer, Tony Hou; and Chief Corporate Officer, Yanjun Wang. Our management will share strategy and business updates, operating highlights and financial performance for the fourth quarter and full year of 2023. This will be followed by a Q&A session in which we welcome any questions you have.

和我一起的還有 Sea 的董事長兼執行長 Forrest Li；總裁 Chris Feng；財務長 Tony Hou；以及首席公司官王延軍。我們的管理層將分享 2023 年第四季和全年的策略和業務更新、營運亮點和財務業績。

With that, let me turn the call over to Forrest.

說完這些，讓我把電話轉給福雷斯特。

Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining today's call. I'm happy to share that we have achieved our fourth full year of annual profit since our IPO. In 2023 we achieved profitability, strengthened our market leadership for our e-commerce business, grew our digital financial services business, and stabilized the performance of our digital entertainment business. We have emerged with a much stronger balance sheet with our cash position increasing to $8.5 billion as of the end of 2023, demonstrating the discipline and the prudence we have applied in our investments over the past year. Looking ahead, we expect 2024 to be another profitable year.

大家好，感謝您參加今天的電話會議。我很高興地告訴大家，自首次公開募股以來，我們已經連續第四年實現年度獲利。 2023年，我們實現了盈利，鞏固了電子商務業務的市場領導地位，發展了數位金融服務業務，並穩定了數位娛樂業務的表現。我們的資產負債表變得更加強勁，截至 2023 年底，我們的現金狀況增加至 85 億美元，證明了我們在過去一年中在投資中採取的紀律性和審慎態度。展望未來，我們預期 2024 年將又是獲利的一年。

Let me recap our performance at the individual business level in 2023 and share the key strategic focus for each business in 2024. Starting with Shopee. First, Shopee's investments since July last year have paid off. I'm pleased to report that despite an environment of intensified competition in Southeast Asia, we believe we had a [meaningful] gain in market share between the start and at the end of 2023. We are happy to have solidified Shopee's market share in the region, and we intend to maintain our market share in 2024. We expect Shopee’s full-year GMV growth to be in the high-teens range and its adjusted EBITDA to turn positive in the second half of this year.

讓我回顧一下我們在 2023 年各個業務層面的表現，並分享 2024 年每個業務的關鍵策略重點。首先，Shopee自去年7月以來的投資已經獲得回報。我很高興地報告，儘管東南亞競爭環境愈發激烈，但我們相信，從 2023 年初到年底，我們的市場份額取得了顯著增長。

To return and strengthen our competitive advantage, Shopee's 3 operational priorities in 2024 are improving service quality for buyers, enhancing the price competitiveness of our product listings, and the strengthening our content ecosystem. On service quality for buyers, we'll do more to optimize key aspects of the buyers' experience such as the delivery speed and consistency, return and refund processes and customer service.

為了恢復並加強我們的競爭優勢，Shopee 在 2024 年的三大營運重點是提高買家的服務品質、增強我們產品清單的價格競爭力以及加強我們的內容生態系統。在買家服務品質方面，我們將加強優化買家體驗的關鍵方面，例如配送速度和一致性、退貨和退款流程以及客戶服務。

These are areas we already excel in and we will continue to improve [out]. On keeping our product listings price competitive, we'll continue to work more with sellers who have more upstream supply chain access and provide more fulfillment, marketing and shop management services to our sellers. On content, we will deepen [and the] broader engagement with creators, sellers and the partners across the content ecosystem and better integrate live streaming and the short form video into the shopping experience.

這些是我們已經擅長的領域，我們將繼續改進。在保持我們的產品價格競爭力的同時，我們將繼續與擁有更多上游供應鏈管道的賣家合作，為我們的賣家提供更多的履行、行銷和商店管理服務。在內容方面，我們將深化與內容生態系統中的創作者、賣家和合作夥伴的廣泛接觸，並將直播和短影片更好地融入購物體驗。

Let me now highlight some of the Shopee's achievements in the fourth quarter. During the quarter, Shopee delivered strong results with both top line growth acceleration and bottom line improvement. Shopee's GMV and orders grew 29% and 46% year-on-year, and 15% and 13% quarter-on-quarter respectively, resulting in solid market share gains across our markets. Meanwhile, Shopee's adjusted EBITDA loss improved by 35% sequentially. Adjusted EBITDA loss per order improved by 43% quarter-on-quarter.

現在，讓我重點介紹 Shopee 在第四季度取得的一些成就。在本季度，Shopee 取得了強勁的業績，營收成長加速，獲利改善。 Shopee的GMV和訂單量分別同比增長29％和46％，環比增長15％和13％，從而在我們整個市場的市場份額穩步增長。同時，Shopee 調整後的 EBITDA 虧損環比改善了 35%。調整後每筆訂單的 EBITDA 損失環比改善了 43%。

On logistics, we opened 5 new sorting centers and 385 new first and last mile hubs across our Asia market and extended our logistics network further to improve our coverage to [do] more automation, tighter planning, better routing and other operational improvements. Our platform logistics cost per order in Asia decreased by 12% year-on-year in the fourth quarter. This was partly driven by our own logistics network cost per order decreasing by 20% from the same [take] rate last year.

在物流方面，我們在亞洲市場開設了 5 個新的分類中心和 385 個新的第一英里和最後一英里樞紐，並進一步擴展了我們的物流網絡，以提高我們的覆蓋範圍，以實現更多自動化、更嚴格的規劃、更好的路線和其他營運改進。我們第四季在亞洲的平台每筆訂單的物流成本年減了12%。部分原因是我們自己的物流網路每筆訂單的成本較去年同期下降了 20%。

We're also seeing good progress made on delivery speed. In Indonesia in December 2023, more than half of the orders from buyers in Java were delivered within 2 days. We'll continue to improve logistics service quality in terms of both speed and the consistency. At the same time, we're also expanding premium services such as next day delivery and introducing new features. For example, we commenced return on sports services in Indonesia and Vietnam. This initiative has resulted in higher trust and increased product frequency -- purchase frequency from our buyers, particularly those who are new to Shopee.

我們也看到交付速度取得了良好的進展。 2023年12月，印尼爪哇省買家的訂單中有一半以上在2天內送達。我們將繼續提高物流服務的速度和一致性品質。同時，我們也正在擴展隔日送達等優質服務並推出新功能。例如，我們開始在印尼和越南恢復體育服務。這項措施提高了我們的買家（尤其是 Shopee 新買家）的信任度和產品頻率——購買頻率。

Our e-commerce logistics network is now one of the most intensive and efficient in our markets and a strong competitive moat for us. We have rapidly ramped up live streaming e-commerce which accounted for around 15% of our physical order volume in Southeast Asia last December.

我們的電子商務物流網路現在是我們市場上最密集、最高效的網路之一，也是我們強大的競爭障礙。我們迅速發展了直播電商，去年 12 月，直播電商佔東南亞實體訂單量的 15% 左右。

With the scale and the leadership achieved, unit economics of the segment also improved meaningfully quarter-on-quarter. Shopee Brazil continued its strong performance in the fourth quarter. Its contribution margin loss per order improved by nearly 90% year-on-year. This was driven by improvements in both user monetization and cost efficiency. We believe we have achieved cost leadership in logistics to scale and operational efficiencies, which have been and will be key to our success in the market.

隨著規模和領導力的提升，該部門的單位經濟效益也較上季顯著改善。 Shopee巴西第四季延續強勁表現。其每筆訂單貢獻利潤損失較去年同期改善了近90%。這是由於用戶貨幣化和成本效率的提高所推動的。我們相信，我們在物流規模和營運效率方面已經取得了成本領先地位，這一直是、並將繼續是我們在市場上取得成功的關鍵。

Turing to our Digital Financial Services segment. SeaMoney has delivered a strong year in 2023 primarily attributed to our consumer and SME credit business. Our journey to build the credit business dates back to 2019. We initially started by introducing SPaylater consumption loans in response to Shopee buyers' strong need for such services.

轉向我們的數位金融服務部門。 SeaMoney 在 2023 年取得了強勁的業績，這主要歸功於我們的消費者和中小企業信貸業務。我們打造信用業務的旅程可以追溯到2019年，最初我們推出SPaylater消費貸款是為了回應Shopee買家對此類服務的強烈需求。

Subsequently, we expanded our offerings to cash loan services to both buyers and sellers on Shopee. This underscores our user centric approach and the unique advantage offered by the Shopee ecosystem for SeaMoney to quickly achieve critical scale and profitability.

隨後，我們擴大了向 Shopee 上的買家和賣家提供現金貸款服務的範圍。這強調了我們以用戶為中心的方法以及 Shopee 生態系統為 SeaMoney 快速實現關鍵規模和盈利能力提供的獨特優勢。

2023 was the first year of positive profit for SeaMoney with full year adjusted EBITDA of $550 million as of December 31, 2023. Our consumer and SME loans principal outstanding was $3.1 billion, a 27% increase year-on-year, $2.5 billion of that was on the book.

2023 年是 SeaMoney 首次實現正盈利，截至 2023 年 12 月 31 日，全年調整後 EBITDA 為 5.5 億美元。

Consumer and SME loans active users for the fourth quarter [defined] as credit users with loans outstanding by the end of the quarter was over $16 million, a 28% increase year-on-year. In 2024, we will continue to invest in user acquisition for our credit business both on and off Shopee platform as we see significant upside in our markets. As we scale, we will remain prudent on risk management.

第四季消費者和中小企業貸款活躍用戶（定義：截至本季末貸款未償還的信貸用戶）超過 1,600 萬美元，年增 28%。 2024 年，我們將繼續在 Shopee 平台內外投資信貸業務的用戶獲取，因為我們看到我們的市場有顯著的成長空間。隨著我們規模的擴大，我們將繼續謹慎地進行風險管理。

In addition to our credit business, SeaMoney is also growing our digital banking and the insurance services to capture future business opportunities in the Digital Financial Services segment. We expect SeaMoney to continue its robust growth in 2024.

除了信貸業務外，SeaMoney 還在拓展數位銀行和保險服務，以抓住數位金融服務領域的未來商機。我們預計 SeaMoney 將在 2024 年繼續保持強勁成長。

In Digital Entertainment, Garena has done well in enhancing and optimizing game experiences for its players. For instance, we have continuously introduced a fresh and highly localized content to Free Fire.

在數位娛樂領域，Garena 在增強和優化玩家的遊戲體驗方面做得很好。例如，我們不斷為 Free Fire 引入新鮮且高度本地化的內容。

In the fourth quarter we collaborated with Lamborghini to allow players to drive their cars in game. We also recently announced our collaboration with JKT48, an idol group from Jakarta, as our Indonesian brand ambassador. This partnership excite and delight our players and enable us to nurture our local communities.

第四季我們與蘭博基尼合作，讓玩家可以在遊戲中駕駛他們的汽車。我們最近也宣布與雅加達偶像團體 JKT48 合作，邀請其擔任我們的印尼品牌大使。這種合作關係讓我們的玩家感到興奮和高興，並使我們能夠培養當地社區。

I am happy to share that we are seeing improved user acquisition and retention trends for Free Fire. In 2023, Free Fire was the most downloaded mobile game globally, according to Sensor Tower. We are pleased that these positive trends are continuing into 2024. In February, Free Fire achieved more than 100 million peak daily active users. It remains one of the largest mobile games in the world. With this positive momentum, we currently expect Free Fire to grow double-digits year-on-year for both user base and bookings in 2024.

我很高興地告訴大家，我們看到 Free Fire 的用戶獲取和保留趨勢正在改善。根據 Sensor Tower 的數據，2023 年，《Free Fire》成為全球下載次數最多的手機遊戲。我們很高興這些正面的趨勢將持續到 2024 年。它仍然是世界上最大的手機遊戲之一。憑藉這一積極勢頭，我們目前預計 2024 年 Free Fire 的用戶群和預訂量都將同比增長兩位數。

To conclude, we are pleased to see positive trends in both growth and profitability for all 3 of our businesses. We will continue to invest for the future with discipline and focus. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank our employees, users, investors and partners for your continued support throughout this journey.

總而言之，我們很高興看到我們三項業務的成長和獲利都呈現正面的趨勢。我們將繼續嚴謹、專注地為未來進行投資。我也想藉此機會感謝我們的員工、用戶、投資者和合作夥伴在這過程中的持續支持。

With that, I would invite Tony to discuss our financials.

因此，我想邀請托尼來討論我們的財務狀況。

Thank you, Forrest, and thanks to everyone for joining the call. [We'll] see overall, total GAAP revenue increased 5% year-on-year to $3.6 billion in the fourth quarter, and 5% year-on-year to $13.1 billion for the full year of 2023. This was primarily driven by the improved monetization in our e-commerce and digital financial services businesses.

謝謝你，福雷斯特，也謝謝大家參加電話會議。整體來看，第四季 GAAP 總營收年增 5% 至 36 億美元，2023 年全年成長 5% 至 131 億美元。

Our total adjusted EBITDA was $127 million in the first quarter of 2023 compared to an adjusted EBITDA of $496 million in the first quarter of 2022. For the full year of 2023 our total adjusted EBITDA was $1.2 billion compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $878 million full year of 2022.

2023 年第一季度，我們的調整後 EBITDA 總值為 1.27 億美元，而 2022 年第一季的調整後 EBITDA 總值為 1.27 億美元，而 2022 年第一季度的調整後 EBITDA 為 4.96 億美元。

On e-commerce, our fourth quarter GAAP revenue of $2.6 billion included GAAP marketplace revenue of $2.3 billion, up 23% year-on-year, and [GAAP] product revenue of $0.3 billion.

在電子商務方面，我們第四季的 GAAP 收入為 26 億美元，其中包括 GAAP 市場收入 23 億美元，年增 23%，以及 [GAAP] 產品收入 3 億美元。

Within GAAP marketplace revenue, core marketplace revenue, mainly consisting of transaction-based fees and advertising revenues was $1.6 billion, up 41% year-on-year as a result of platform growth and improved monetization.

在 GAAP 市場收入中，核心市場收入（主要包括以交易為基礎的費用和廣告收入）為 16 億美元，由於平台成長和貨幣化提高而較去年同期成長 41%。

Value-added services revenue, mainly consisting of revenues related to logistics services was $0.7 billion, down 5% year-on-year as a result of higher revenue netting off against shipping subsidies.

加值服務收入（主要包括與物流服務相關的收入）為 7 億美元，年減 5%，因為扣除航運補貼後收入增加。

For the full year of 2023, GAAP revenue of $9.0 billion included GAAP marketplace revenue of $7.9 billion, up 27% year-on-year, and GAAP product revenue of $1.1 billion.

2023年全年，GAAP營收90億美元，其中包括GAAP市場營收79億美元，年增27%，GAAP產品營收11億美元。

E-commerce adjusted EBITDA loss was $225 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 compared to an adjusted EBITDA loss of $196 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. 2023 full year adjusted EBITDA loss improved by 87% year-on-year to $240 million.

2023年第四季調整後EBITDA虧損為2.25億美元，而2022年第四季調整後EBITDA虧損為1.96億美元。

For our Asia markets, we had an adjusted EBITDA loss of $193 million during the quarter compared to an adjusted EBITDA of $320 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. In our other markets, the adjusted EBITDA loss was $32 million, narrowing meaningfully from last year when losses were $124 million. Contribution margin loss per order in Brazil improved by nearly 90% year-on-year to reach negative $0.5.

對於我們的亞洲市場，本季我們的調整後 EBITDA 虧損為 1.93 億美元，而 2022 年第四季的調整後 EBITDA 為 3.2 億美元。 在我們的其他市場，調整後的 EBITDA 虧損為 3,200 萬美元，較去年的 1.24 億美元虧損。巴西每筆訂單的貢獻利潤損失較去年同期改善近90%，達到負0.5美元。

Digital financial services GAAP revenue was up by 24% year-on-year to $472 million in the fourth quarter and up by 44% year-on-year to $1.8 billion for the full year of 2023. Adjusted EBITDA was up by 96% year-on-year to $148 million in the fourth quarter of 2023, and up by 341% year-on-year to $550 million for the full year of 2023.

數位金融服務GAAP營收第四季年增24%至4.72億美元，2023年全年年增44%至18億美元。

Digital Entertainment bookings were $456 million in the fourth quarter and $1.8 billion for the full year of 2023. GAAP revenue was $511 million in the fourth quarter and $2.2 billion for the full year of 2023. Adjusted EBITDA was $217 million in the fourth quarter and $921 million for the full year of 2023.

2023 年第四季數位娛樂預訂金額為 4.56 億美元，全年為 18 億美元。 2023 年第四季 GAAP 營收為 5.11 億美元，全年為 22 億美元。

Returning to our consolidated numbers, we recognize a net non-operating income of $32 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 compared to a net non-operating income of $35 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. For the full year, our non-operating income was $208 million compared to a loss of $13 million for the full year of 2022. The improvement was mainly due to higher interest income for the full year of 2023 as compared to the full year of 2022.

回到我們的合併數據，我們確認 2023 年第四季的淨非營業收入為 3,200 萬美元，而 2022 年第四季的淨非營業收入為 3,500 萬美元。

We had a net income tax expense of $77 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 compared to net income tax credit $43 million in the fourth quarter of 2022. For the full year, our net income tax expense was $263 million, compared to $168 million for the full year of 2022. As a result, net loss was $112 million in the fourth quarter of 2023 as compared to a net income of $423 million in the fourth quarter of 2022.

2023 年第四季，我們的淨所得稅支出為 7,700 萬美元，而 2022 年第四季的淨所得稅抵免額為 4,300 萬美元。 3 億美元。

For full year, net income was $163 million as compared to a net loss of $1.7 billion for the full year of 2022.

全年淨收入為 1.63 億美元，而 2022 年全年淨虧損為 17 億美元。

At the end of first quarter of 2023,– cash, cash equivalents, short-term and other treasury investments were $8.5 billion, representing a net increase of $566 million from the previous quarter. The increase includes proceeds of approximately $370 million from lower securities purchased under agreements to resell relating to our banking operations. From the first quarter of 2024 onwards, we will include this as part of our other treasury investments as these are highly-liquid marketable securities.

2023 年第一季末，現金、現金等價物、短期和其他財務投資為 85 億美元，較上一季淨增加 5.66 億美元。這一增長包括根據與我們的銀行業務相關的轉售協議購買較低價值的證券所得的約 3.7 億美元收益。從 2024 年第一季開始，我們將把它作為其他財務投資的一部分，因為它們是流動性很強的有價證券。

With that, let me turn the call to Min Ju.

說完這些，我把電話轉給 Min Ju。

Thank you, Forrest and Tony. We are now ready to open the call [to] questions.

謝謝你，福雷斯特和托尼。我們現在準備開始提問。

(Operator Instructions) Your first question comes from the line of Pang Vitt from Goldman Sachs.

（操作員指示）您的第一個問題來自高盛的 Pang Vitt。

Congratulations for the solid set of results. Two questions from me. Firstly, on Shopee. Can you please provide a little bit more color on the guidance you gave out for 2024? What is the assumption [behind] in terms of competitive landscape and market share, especially in Indonesia? When it comes to high-teen growth, how do you plan to achieve this? And on the margin side, what gave you the confidence that we can go back to breakeven by second half of this year? And what kind of EBITDA margin we can expect as well for Shopee to achieve in the near term? That's question number one.

祝賀你們取得了這些堅實的成果。我有兩個問題。首先，在Shopee上。您能否更詳細地介紹一下 2024 年的指導方針？就競爭格局和市場佔有率而言，尤其是在印度尼西亞，背後的假設是什麼？當談到高青少年成長時，您計劃如何實現這一目標？從利潤率來看，您有什麼信心相信我們能在今年下半年達到收支平衡？我們還能預期 Shopee 在短期內能達到什麼樣的 EBITDA 利潤率呢？這是第一個問題。

Question number 2 related to SeaMoney. Can you provide some color on why EBITDA was weaker quarter-on-quarter? We noticed that you spend more on marketing this quarter. Should we expect this to be the new run rate? What kind of growth outlook can we expect for 2024? And can we still expect to see EBITDA growth here?

問題 2 與 SeaMoney 相關。您能否解釋一下為何 EBITDA 環比下降？我們注意到您本季在行銷上的支出增加了。我們是否應該預期這就是新的運作率？我們可以期待2024年有什麼樣的成長前景？我們還能期待看到 EBITDA 成長嗎？

I think -- let me address the first question first. I think in terms of the Shopee, we do believe that we are able to grow high-teens for the full year 2024, as we shared in the opening. For -- [particular] for Indonesia, we do see Indonesia is a good market for us in the Q4 and we believe that the trend likely -- the growth trend, [I] -- can continue in Q1 and in line with the other markets in the following quarters.

我想——讓我先回答第一個問題。我認為就 Shopee 而言，我們確實相信我們能夠在 2024 年全年實現高成長率，正如我們在開幕時所分享的那樣。特別是對於印度尼西亞，我們確實看到印尼在第四季度對我們來說是一個很好的市場，我們相信這種趨勢——成長趨勢——可以在第一季度繼續下去，並在接下來的幾個季度與其他市場保持一致。

If you look at the overall competitive landscape, we have seen a more stable competitive landscape in the past quarters. Again, we cannot sort of control, I guess, what our competitor does. But if you look at the past, we have been competing with the similar set of competitor for quite a while. And even with the most intensive competition during the past few quarters, we are able to gain market share while improving our unit economics.

如果看一下整體競爭格局，我們會發現過去幾季的競爭格局更加穩定。再說了，我猜我們無法控制競爭對手的行為。但如果你回顧過去，我們已經與類似的競爭對手競爭了相當長一段時間。即使過去幾季競爭最為激烈，我們仍然能夠在提高單位經濟效益的同時獲得市場份額。

[We] are contributing by a few factors. I think number one is we are a clear market leader in the market. This translates to the economic scale, benefiting by both having a better monetization capability and also better cost efficiencies. And if you look at the scale, we are in a much better position now compared with 1 year ago. We do believe that we have gained market share in Indonesia if you compare the beginning of the year, or last year and now.

[我們]做出了一些貢獻。我認為，首先我們是市場上明顯的領導者。這意味著經濟規模，既有更好的貨幣化能力，也有更好的成本效率。如果你看一下規模，你會發現與一年前相比，我們現在的狀況會好得多。我們確實相信，如果比較今年年初或去年和現在，我們在印尼的市佔率已經增加。

The second one is, I do believe that we have a strong local leadership team and operating team to execute on what we set up to execute and also make the right judgment based on [reaching] the market. I spent probably most of my time -- if you compare all countries, I spent most time in Indonesia. And many of our management team, including myself, learn to speak Bahasa Indonesia over time as well to understand the market better.

第二，我相信我們擁有強大的本地領導團隊和營運團隊，能夠執行我們設定的目標，並根據市場狀況做出正確的判斷。如果比較所有國家，我可能在印尼度過了大部分時間。包括我在內的許多管理團隊成員也逐漸學習印尼語，以便更好地了解市場。

Number three is we have built infrastructure for the market over time. For example, our logistic coverage in Indonesia has been a lot larger than before. Our cost has reduced significantly over the past few quarters for shipping one order. Also, the quality has been improved.

第三，我們隨著時間的推移為市場建立了基礎設施。例如，我們在印尼的物流覆蓋範圍比以前擴大了很多。在過去幾個季度中，我們運送一份訂單的成本已大幅降低。此外，品質也提高了。

But most importantly, by having our own logistics in the market, are able -- enabling us to offer differentiated services. If you follow the market closely, we have recently started the return-on-the-spot for the users, which has very good feedback not only for Indonesia, but also for Vietnam. We also started a differentiated return service that we are going to allow the user to ask for return anytime during the shipping process, and we can intersect the orders even during the shipping, which is not offered by any other one in the market so far.

但最重要的是，透過在市場上擁有自己的物流，我們能夠提供差異化服務。如果你密切關注市場，你會發現我們最近已經開始為用戶提供當場退貨服務，這不僅對印度尼西亞，而且對越南都獲得了非常好的反饋。我們還啟動了差異化的退貨服務，允許用戶在運輸過程中隨時要求退貨，甚至在運輸過程中我們也可以交叉訂單，這是目前市場上任何其他公司都沒有提供的。

The -- and also on top of that, we have our strong integration with our digital financial services businesses. This not only enabled us to reduce the cost of transactions, for example, on the payment side, but also allow us to untap a [sizeable] potential by offering the SPaylater to a broader segment that we have never seen in the market before. All of this helped us not only to reduce costs but increase the conversions in the market.

最重要的是，我們與數位金融服務業務有著緊密的整合。這不僅使我們能夠降低交易成本（例如在支付方面），而且透過向市場上以前從未見過的更廣泛的細分市場提供 SPaylater，我們還能夠挖掘（巨大的）潛力。所有這些不僅幫助我們降低成本，而且提高了市場轉換率。

We've been doing all this in the past few quarters. And we do believe across all dimensions we are able to do better over this year so that -- even with whatever competitive landscape that we are facing, we are able to outperform our competitor in the market, be more efficient in the market. I think that's kind of like how we see the market so far and how this is going to evolve in the future.

過去幾季我們一直在做這些事。我們確實相信，今年我們在各方面都能做得更好，這樣，無論我們面臨什麼樣的競爭格局，我們都能在市場上勝過我們的競爭對手，在市場上更有效率。我認為這有點像我們目前對市場的看法以及未來市場將如何發展。

In terms of the margins, as we shared in the opening, we believe that the overall businesses for Shopee were able to breakeven in the second half of the year, while with the intention to at least maintain our current market share in the market, and this applied to Indonesia as well. I think, as I shared earlier, compared to 1 year ago, we gained sizable market shares, and we are going to execute even better over this year given the foundations we built during the last year.

利潤率方面，正如我們在開頭所分享的，我們相信Shopee的整體業務在下半年能夠實現收支平衡，同時至少能夠保持我們目前的市場份額，這對印尼也是如此。我認為，正如我之前所說，與一年前相比，我們獲得了相當大的市場份額，而且鑑於我們去年打下的基礎，今年我們的表現會更好。

On top of what I mentioned just now in terms of all the things we are doing, there are a couple of other things we are doing further even over the year. One is the price competitiveness. We do believe we are the most price competitive platform in the market as you can do benchmark externally. We're going to deep dive on that even further over the year, in particular for -- not only for individuals, but for the other markets as well. But yes, Indonesia is the key market for us.

除了我剛才提到的我們正在做的所有事情之外，今年我們還在做一些其他的事情。一是價格競爭力。我們確實相信，我們是市場上最具價格競爭力的平台，因為您可以進行外部基準測試。我們將在今年進一步深入研究這個問題，不僅針對個人，也針對其他市場。但確實，印尼是我們的關鍵市場。

We're also going to further drive the service qualities I shared earlier, not only on the logistics, but also on the after [procurement], like the [return response] services, the customer service quality, et cetera. And all this will essentially put us into an even better position in the future, not only sort of maintaining our growth trajectory, but also improving our EBITDAs.

我們也將進一步提升我先前分享的服務品質，不僅在物流方面，還包括後續[採購]，例如[退貨回應]服務、客戶服務品質等等。所有這些都將使我們在未來處於更有利的地位，不僅可以保持我們的成長軌跡，而且還能提高我們的 EBITDA。

For the live stream that we talked about in the past earnings call, we are seeing quite a fast growth on the live stream in this quarter as well. As we shared in the opening, we have -- across the region we have -- about 15% of our orders come from live stream. For Indonesia, it's even bigger percentage. Indonesia is the first country we started. The -- in [Southern] market, we believe that we are probably the largest live stream platform in the market, not only the scales, but while [we're] growing it, we [have] reducing the [unit] economics quite significantly in the past few months and continue in Q1, essentially. This also enables us to compete effectively with our competitors and we should say different probably 1 year ago. If you look at 1 year ago, we probably don't have this ecosystem. We have to invest to build this ecosystem that -- we are now in a very different status for that.

對於我們在上次財報電話會議上談到的直播，我們也看到本季直播的成長相當快。正如我們在開頭所分享的，我們在整個地區大約 15% 的訂單來自直播。對印尼來說，這一比例甚至更大。印尼是我們開始的第一個國家。在南方市場，我們相信我們可能是市場上最大的直播平台，不僅規模龐大，而且在不斷增長的同時，我們在過去幾個月中大幅降低了單位經濟效益，基本上在第一季還將繼續降低。這也使我們能夠有效地與競爭對手競爭，我們應該說這可能與一年前有所不同。如果回顧一年前，我們可能還沒有這個生態系統。我們必須投資建立這個生態系統——我們現在的狀態非常不同。

I think this sort of probably conclude on the first question for Shopee.

我想這可能是對於 Shopee 第一個問題的結論。

Moving to the second question on the SeaMoney EBITDA for Q4. So I think we probably should put into perspective on the overall SeaMoney businesses. The SeaMoney has seen the first positive profit in 2023, and the trajectory has been doing well if you look at Q1, Q2, Q3 and extend to Q4. We have seen very healthy margin in our SeaMoney businesses.

轉到第二個問題，關於第四季度的 SeaMoney EBITDA。所以我認為我們應該全面地看待 SeaMoney 業務。 SeaMoney 在 2023 年首次實現了正盈利，從第一季、第二季、第三季到第四季度，其發展軌跡一直表現良好。我們的 SeaMoney 業務利潤率非常可觀。

And given the very healthy margin in the businesses, we -- in Q4, leveraging on this is relative. We spend -- we invest more to acquire new users to the platform. And this essentially will bring us a better profitability in long-term. We measure our user acquisition costs very prudently. Every user acquired will bring positive profit over the time.

鑑於業務利潤率非常健康，我們在第四季度利用這一點是相對的。我們投入更多資金來吸引平台的新用戶。從本質上講，這將為我們帶來長期更好的獲利能力。我們非常謹慎地衡量用戶獲取成本。每個獲得的用戶都會隨著時間的推移帶來正利潤。

Your next question comes from the line of Navin Killa from UBS.

您的下一個問題來自瑞銀的 Navin Killa。

Actually, I had a couple of questions. First, I just wanted to understand a little bit about competition in the e-commerce space, particularly in the Indonesia, I suppose Q4 numbers might have benefited from the fact that TikTok was not in the market for a large part of the quarter. So since the relaunch of TikTok and as we probably come close to the end of the trial period, have you seen the intensity from the combined TikTok Tokopedia entity evolve in a different direction over the course of the quarter? So that's my question number one.

事實上，我有幾個問題。首先，我想了解電子商務領域的競爭情況，特別是在印度尼西亞，我認為第四季度的數據可能受益於 TikTok 在本季大部分時間都沒有出現在市場上。那麼，自從 TikTok 重新推出以來，我們可能已經接近試用期的結束，您是否看到合併後的 TikTok Tokopedia 實體的強度在本季度內朝著不同的方向發展？這是我的第一個問題。

And second question, I guess, given the strong cash balance and your expectation of, I guess, positive profit for the full year for the group, how do we think about use and allocation of this cash going forward potentially for buybacks and other use cases?

第二個問題，鑑於集團現金餘額強勁，以及您對集團全年盈利的預期，我們如何考慮未來使用和分配這筆現金，用於回購和其他用途？

For the first question, I think I shared quite a bit in the last answer as well. Generally, we compete with both competitors you mentioned for quite long period of time. And you are right that it does benefit us in some extent in Q4 that TikTok wasn't operating for the period of time -- for (inaudible) period of time during the quarter. But I don't think that's the only reason that we'd grow well in Q4. We have seen similar growth trends continue in Q1 as well. Even the landscape have changed.

對於第一個問題，我想我在上一個回答中也分享了不少內容。整體來說，我們和你提到的兩個競爭對手都會競爭相當長的一段時間。您說得對，TikTok 在本季度的一段時間內（聽不清楚）沒有運營，這確實在一定程度上對我們有利。但我不認為這是我們在第四季度實現良好成長的唯一原因。我們在第一季也看到類似的成長趨勢持續。連風景都變了。

In a typical e-commerce transactions, as we can see across globally, it might not necessarily 1 plus 1, plus 2 -- greater than 2 situations. I think for us, the most important thing is to focus on what we are great at. As I mentioned earlier, our scale advantage, our local leadership and operating teams, our[investments] build over time, our integration with DFS and all this gave us the competitive advantage in the past few quarters, as you can see, and will continue to give us the advantage in the coming quarters. The -- and with that, I think we have shared that we have -- we're expecting a good growth for Shopee over this coming year in 2024 and in the coming quarters.

在典型的電子商務交易中，正如我們在全球範圍內看到的，它可能不一定是1加1，加2——大於2的情況。我認為對我們來說，最重要的是專注於我們擅長的領域。正如我之前提到的，我們的規模優勢、我們的本地領導和營運團隊、我們隨著時間的推移而建立的投資、我們與 DFS 的整合以及所有這些，使我們在過去幾個季度中獲得了競爭優勢，正如你所看到的，並將在未來幾個季度繼續為我們帶來優勢。就此而言，我想我們已經分享過——我們預計 Shopee 在 2024 年以及未來幾季將實現良好的成長。

And regarding our cash balance, we think for a company of our size, it's prudent to maintain a strong cash balance. And we're also very disciplined and focused in deploying our capital to capture future opportunities to maximize our long-term shareholder return. We do not rule out any options for using our cash balance in this regard.

關於我們的現金餘額，我們認為對於我們這樣規模的公司來說，保持強勁的現金餘額是明智之舉。我們也非常自律並專注於部署我們的資本以抓住未來的機會，從而實現長期股東回報最大化。我們不排除在這方面使用現金餘額的任何選項。

Your next question comes from the line of Alicia from Citigroup.

您的下一個問題來自花旗集團的艾莉西亞。

Congrats on the solid results. I have 2 questions. First is that, obviously, with the Ramadan coming, do you anticipate your competitors in Indonesia to further step up the spending? And in the event, if your competitors in Indonesia are catching up on the market share, would you step up your spending that might actually prevent your EBITDA to regain profitability in the second half of this year?

恭喜您取得堅實的成果。我有兩個問題。首先，隨著齋戒月的到來，您是否預期印尼的競爭對手會進一步增加支出？在這種情況下，如果您在印尼的競爭對手正在趕上您的市場份額，您是否會加大支出，而這實際上可能會阻止您的 EBITDA 在今年下半年恢復盈利？

Second question is, what are the main reasons for your confidence in growing the Free Fire in double-digit in booking [and] user this year? What have you done or plan to do to regain your user traction and monetization?

第二個問題是，您對今年 Free Fire 的預訂量和用戶量實現兩位數成長有信心的主要原因是什麼？您已經做了什麼或計劃做什麼來重新獲得用戶吸引力和貨幣化？

For the first question, so in a way, Ramadan [I think] has started already in Indonesia. We have -- we are comfortable with what we're seeing so far, let's put this way. So in a way, we cannot see market share as a [set in] number. Market share is always dynamic. And the most important for us is to make sure that we always have a sizable leadership compared to our next competitor so that we can sustain our scale advantage and -- that's number one.

對於第一個問題，從某種意義上來說，[我認為]齋戒月在印尼已經開始了。我們可以這麼說，我們對目前看到的情況感到滿意。因此從某種程度上來說，我們不能將市場佔有率視為一個固定的數字。市場佔有率總是動態的。對我們來說，最重要的是確保我們與下一個競爭對手相比始終擁有相當大的領導地位，這樣我們才能保持規模優勢——這是最重要的。

Number two is, we are able to build up our long-term moat compared to competitors who are more efficient when we compete with the competitor in the market. I think, again, as I said earlier, given all the things we have done, even with the most intensive competition in the past few quarters, we are able to reduce our costs while increase our market shares. I think this reflects of the moat we have been over time, and we do believe that we'll be able to continue in the future.

第二，與市場上的競爭對手相比，我們能夠建立起自己的長期護城河，因為競爭對手的效率更高。我認為，正如我之前所說，考慮到我們所做的所有事情，即使過去幾季競爭最為激烈，我們也能夠在降低成本的同時增加市場份額。我認為這反映了我們長期以來的護城河，我們確實相信我們將來能夠繼續保持下去。

And regarding Free Fire, as we shared earlier, we are encouraged by the positive trends we have seen so far this year in terms of active user base and monetization across our various markets. As a result, we share that our current expectation is [for the] [game] to achieve double-digit year-on-year growth for both user base and bookings. As a self-developed game, Free Fire also enjoys better margin for us.

關於《Free Fire》，正如我們之前所分享的，就今年迄今為止我們在各個市場的活躍用戶群和貨幣化方面看到的積極趨勢令我們感到鼓舞。因此，我們目前的預期是，該遊戲的用戶群和預訂量都將實現同比增長兩位數。作為一款自主研發的遊戲，《Free Fire》也為我們帶來了更好的利潤。

In terms of what we have done and will do in the future, I think our focus has been quite consistent. It's on building better user experience such as easy access to our users, file download size and data requirements, introducing more engaging content and strengthen exports communities to further develop the game into a strong evergreen franchise.

無論我們已經做了什麼，還是將來要做的事情，我想我們的重點是比較一致的。它致力於建立更好的用戶體驗，例如輕鬆存取我們的用戶、文件下載大小和數據要求，引入更具吸引力的內容並加強出口社區，以進一步將遊戲發展成為強大的常青特許經營權。

Your next question comes from the line of Piyush Choudhary from HSBC.

您的下一個問題來自匯豐銀行的 Piyush Choudhary。

Congratulations to the management team on great set of results. First question is on Shopee. If I annualize your fourth quarter GMV, that itself is implying around 18% year-on-year growth in 2024 GMV. So why does company expect to grow only high-teens range and not more than that? What is driving conservative guidance? And also for Shopee EBITDA, as you expect to turn profitable in second half, would it mean that on a full year basis, adjusted losses for Shopee would narrow year-on-year in '24?

恭喜管理團隊的優異成績。第一個問題是關於Shopee的。如果我將您的第四季 GMV 年度化，這本身就意味著 2024 年 GMV 將年增約 18%。那為什麼公司只期望成長百分之十幾而不是更多呢？保守指導的推動因素是什麼？另外，對於 Shopee 的 EBITDA，您預計下半年將實現盈利，這是否意味著從全年來看，Shopee 的調整後虧損將在 24 年同比收窄？

Secondly, on gaming, what led to fourth quarter quarterly pay users decline despite a strong seasonality? And your outlook for Free Fire is strong. Would that mean console Garena will also grow double-digit? And what's the margin outlook for Garena business?

其次，就遊戲而言，儘管季節性因素影響較大，但什麼原因導致第四季付費用戶數量下降？您對 Free Fire 的前景十分看好。這是否意味著主機版 Garena 也將實現兩位數的成長？ Garena 業務的利潤前景如何？

I think for -- in terms of the guidance we gave out, I think the high-teens for the year. We believe that it's a reasonable estimate we've given out based on both the market growth rate and also the EBITDA goal we set up to achieve. And on top of that, the most important thing is, with this we are able to sustain our market leadership while building up all the competitive moat that we've been building over the past years. On top of that, even started the other new initiatives during the year. So we are comfortable with what it is. In a way, we are not chasing [for growth -- for the growth]. We are trying to grow in an efficient and prudent fashion with the long-term profitability in mind.

我認為——就我們給出的指導而言，我認為今年的成長速度將達到 15% 以上。我們相信，這是根據市場成長率和我們設定的 EBITDA 目標給出的合理估計。最重要的是，透過這種方式，我們能夠保持市場領導地位，同時鞏固我們在過去幾年中一直努力打造的競爭護城河。除此之外，我們在今年也啟動了其他新措施。所以我們對於現狀感到滿意。從某種程度上來說，我們並不追求成長。我們正努力以高效、審慎的方式發展，並著眼於長期獲利。

The -- in terms of the second question, whether the full year will narrow over time, I think this is something we haven't given a guidance on. We probably wouldn't comment too detail on that. But generally, I think what we set to achieve again is to have Shopee as an overall business breakeven over the second half of the year.

關於第二個問題，全年的差距是否會隨著時間的推移而縮小，我認為這是我們尚未給出指引的。我們可能不會對此發表太詳細的評論。但總體來說，我認為我們再次設定的目標是讓 Shopee 在下半年實現整體業務收支平衡。

Regarding Free Fire, I think the quarter-on-quarter user fluctuation can be many reasons, including seasonality and game launch for Garena as a whole or e-sports events. But for Free Fire overall, I think we are -- we have -- as shared earlier, we are very positive based on the trends we have seen so far. And therefore, we want to give market some indication of what we also have seen.

關於 Free Fire，我認為季度間用戶波動可能有很多原因，包括季節性、Garena 整體的遊戲發布或電競賽事。但就 Free Fire 整體而言，我認為我們——我們已經——正如之前所分享的，根據我們迄今為止所看到的趨勢，我們對此非常樂觀。因此，我們想向市場提供一些我們已經看到的情況。

Regarding the rest of our portfolio which are up -- third-party games published by us, we will continue also to work closely with our partners to bring more content to our game [communities] as well.

至於我們投資組合中的其他部分——我們發布的第三方遊戲，我們也將繼續與合作夥伴密切合作，為我們的遊戲[社群]帶來更多內容。

Your next question comes from the line of Thomas Chong from Jefferies.

您的下一個問題來自 Jefferies 的 Thomas Chong。

Congratulations on a strong set of results. My question is, first, on Shopee. Just then we are looking for adjusted EBITDA to breakeven in the second half and we have built up our competitive moat. I just want to ask about in terms of the take rate trend for Shopee in 2024, how should we think about the advertising and the commission trend? That's number one.

恭喜您取得一系列優異的成績。我的問題首先是關於Shopee的。就在此時，我們希望調整後的 EBITDA 在下半年達到收支平衡，並且我們已經建立了自己的競爭護城河。我只想問一下，就2024年Shopee的佣金率趨勢而言，我們該如何看待廣告和佣金趨勢？這是第一點。

And then number two, on the fintech side, given the strong growth momentum that we are seeing, I just want to get some color with respect to our user acquisition strategies. What kind of channel are we getting new user other than the organic one? And on that one, how are we thinking about the loan -- performing loans expectations as a percentage of our loan book? How is our technology or our data insights which can make it at a low level?

第二，在金融科技方面，鑑於我們看到的強勁成長勢頭，我只想了解我們的用戶獲取策略。除了自然獲取用戶之外，我們還可以透過什麼管道獲取新用戶？在這一點上，我們如何考慮貸款——履行貸款預期占我們貸款帳簿的百分比？我們的技術或數據洞察力如何能夠達到較低的水平？

On the first question regarding the take rate trend, as you have seen that we have adjusted our commission side continuously over the past few quarters, we are actually [review it] every month in terms of what makes sense for our user base in terms of commissions. I think overall, the most important thing is we want to make sure there's a healthy ecosystem that our seller has a reasonable margin to operate, but also are able to support the overall marketplace to grow healthily. So we will probably see some adjustment on the commissions over the year. Some of them can be for specific categories, some of them for specific countries. The -- yes, I think it's probably going to be fine tuning, I guess over the year.

關於第一個問題，關於佣金率趨勢，正如你所看到的，我們在過去幾個季度中不斷調整佣金方面，實際上我們每個月都會對其進行審查，以確定什麼佣金對我們的用戶群來說是合理的。我認為總的來說，最重要的是我們要確保有一個健康的生態系統，讓我們的賣家有合理的利潤空間，同時也能支持整個市場健康發展。因此，我們可能會看到今年佣金有所調整。其中一些可以針對特定類別，一些可以針對特定國家。是的，我認為可能會微調，我想會持續一年。

On the second part, on the take rate, we do believe that in a sizeable potential on the [ADS] side for the take rate compared to many global peers, we still have a sizable room to grow there. And we have done quite a few technical revamps in the past few months, and this will be deployed and fine tuned in the coming quarter, which will enable us to further grow our [Ad] take rate.

第二部分，關於接受率，我們確實相信，與許多全球同行相比，[ADS] 方面的接受率具有相當大的潛力，我們在該方面仍有相當大的成長空間。在過去的幾個月裡，我們做了相當多的技術改造，這些改造將在下個季度進行部署和微調，這將使我們能夠進一步提高我們的[廣告]接受率。

The second question regarding the SeaMoney growth. If you look at the SeaMoney, the majority of our business are in the credit business at this point in time. Of course, we also have digital banks and insurance but still in the relatively growing stage. There are a few passes we're looking at here. One is to further penetrate our Shopee ecosystem through our Shopee PayLater. The penetration of our e-commerce platform still has a slight room to grow. We started Indonesia first and other countries later. Even for our earliest market, we still see a potential to further penetrate the user base. I think -- that's the first one.

第二個問題是關於 SeaMoney 的成長。如果你看一下 SeaMoney，你會發現我們目前大部分的業務都屬於信貸業務。當然，我們也有數位銀行和保險，但仍處於相對成長的階段。我們正在查看此處的一些通行證。一是透過我們的Shopee PayLater進一步滲透我們的Shopee生態系統。我們的電子商務平台的滲透率仍有輕微的上升空間。我們先從印尼開始，然後再到其他國家。即使對於我們最早的市場，我們仍然看到進一步滲透用戶群的潛力。我認為——這是第一個。

Second one is we also believe that outside of the Shopee ecosystem, there are many users that we can onboard to our digital finance platforms. This is still in a very early stage as we started much later than penetrating the Shopee ecosystem, but I think -- essentially, I think you can imagine that in a big country like Indonesia where credit card penetration are relatively small, single-digit stage, we are probably the first one that are able to offer a credit service to the broader mass market. And of course, this helped by the Shopee penetration in the mass market, but there are still many other users out of the Shopee ecosystem in the mass market that we believe that we can target on. And of course, there are many channels to do that. We have offline [QRIS] payment. We have a very product-based, (inaudible) based consumption loans that we are working on, which is not uncommon in many other markets. So that's another part of the equations in the credit businesses.

第二個是我們也相信，在Shopee生態系統之外，有許多使用者可以加入我們的數位金融平台。這仍處於非常早期的階段，因為我們起步晚於進入Shopee生態系統，但我認為——本質上，你可以想像，在印尼這樣的大國，信用卡普及率相對較小，處於個位數階段，我們可能是第一個能夠向更廣泛的大眾市場提供信貸服務的公司。當然，這要歸功於 Shopee 在大眾市場的滲透，但我們相信，在大眾市場中，Shopee 生態系統之外還有許多其他用戶值得我們瞄準。當然，有很多管道可以做到這一點。我們有離線[QRIS]付款。我們正在進行以產品為導向、（聽不清楚）的消費貸款，這在許多其他市場並不罕見。這是信貸業務方程式的另一部分。

The third equation in the credit businesses is to cross-sell after your financial products to our Shopee PayLater user base. I think you asked about NPL as well. The great thing for our business is -- here is that given the data we have from the e-commerce transaction and also over years, we built up the external data besides our Shopee ecosystem that we are able to credit rate user a lot more efficiently and effectively.

信貸業務的第三個等式是將您的金融產品交叉銷售給我們的Shopee PayLater用戶群。我想您也問過有關不良貸款 (NPL) 的問題。對我們的業務來說，最棒的事情是——利用我們從電子商務交易中獲得的數據，並且多年來，我們在 Shopee 生態系統之外建立了外部數據，使我們能夠更有效率、更有效地對用戶進行評級。

And if the user onboarded to our Shopee PayLater platform, we have even better credit data based on their Shopee PayLater performance. This will enable us to sell down many other credit products over time. For example, we mentioned earlier on the cash loans that we offer to the users, which unlock more use case. Basically, user can use the credit for many other use cases besides the Shopee scenarios and other products we are [rolling] out over time.

如果用戶加入我們的 Shopee PayLater 平台，我們將根據他們的 Shopee PayLater 表現獲得更好的信用數據。這將使我們能夠隨著時間的推移銷售許多其他信貸產品。例如，我們之前提到過，我們向用戶提供現金貸款，這解鎖了更多的用例。基本上，除了 Shopee 場景和我們隨著時間推移推出的其他產品之外，用戶還可以將信用用於許多其他用例。

And I think the -- as we grow, this will -- the scale will also enable us to lower down the cost of service as well. So the economics can be even better. As time goes, this will go to a [positive] cycle that we have a cost-to-serve -- better cost-to-serve, better risk management so that we can -- we are able to target even broader segment in the market, so we can grow even further in the market. I think that's probably how we look at the growth side of the story.

而且我認為，隨著我們的成長，規模也將使我們能夠降低服務成本。因此經濟狀況可能會更好。隨著時間的推移，這將進入一個[積極的]循環，我們擁有更好的服務成本、更好的風險管理，這樣我們就可以瞄準更廣泛的市場領域，從而可以在市場上進一步發展。我想這可能就是我們看待故事成長的方式。

On the NPL side, we are seeing a relatively stable NPL, as Tony has shared in the opening, over the time. Of course, there's -- that's based on the -- number one, the data we have, as I mentioned in the first -- in the previous descriptions. But also because -- I do believe that we have probably the best, if not one of the best credit modeling team in South Asia to utilize the data to be able to credit rate our users.

在不良貸款方面，正如 Tony 在開頭所分享的，隨著時間的推移，我們看到不良貸款相對穩定。當然，這是基於——第一，我們擁有的數據，正如我在前面的描述中提到的那樣。而且也因為——我確實相信我們擁有南亞最好的信用建模團隊，如果不是最好的數據之一，他們可以利用這些數據來對我們的用戶進行信用評級。

On top of that, it's also about how we measure this overall. We measure this in a very prudent way. [But] we are not rushing [for growth -- for the growth]. We want to make sure that our financial service businesses not only have a proper business now, but have a proper business in the very long-term, even in the credit cycle situations. So putting all these things together, we will probably see a pretty high -- pretty good upside for our financial service businesses. And 2024, we would like to further grow our user base and maintain our credit risk in the market.

除此之外，這也與我們如何整體衡量這一點有關。我們以非常謹慎的方式衡量這一點。 [但]我們並不急於[實現成長－為了成長]。我們希望確保我們的金融服務業務不僅現在有正常業務，而且在長期內，即使在信貸週期的情況下，也能有正常業務。所以把所有這些因素綜合起來，我們可能會看到我們的金融服務業務獲得相當高——相當好的成長空間。 2024年，我們希望進一步擴大我們的用戶群，並維持我們在市場上的信用風險。

Your next question comes from the line of Sachin Salgaonkar from Bank of America.

您的下一個問題來自美國銀行的 Sachin Salgaonkar。

I have 2 questions. First question, if you could help get a bit more clarity on improving unit economics at live streaming? Can you give some color in terms of the difference between normal e-commerce and live streaming in terms of AOV, the margin perspective? And also any thoughts on steady state EBITDA margin at live streaming?

我有兩個問題。第一個問題，您能否幫助我們更清楚地了解如何提高直播的單位經濟效益？您能否從 AOV 和利潤率的角度，詳細解釋普通電子商務和直播之間的差異？另外，對於直播的穩定狀態 EBITDA 利潤率您有什麼看法？

Second question, I also wanted to understand a bit more on Free Fire, i.e., is the expected launch of India baked in the expectation of a double-digit growth? And are there any specific markets which is driving your optimism in terms of overall growth?

第二個問題，我也想更了解 Free Fire，即預計在印度推出該遊戲時是否包含兩位數的成長預期？是否有某個特定市場在整體成長方面令您感到樂觀？

In terms of unit economic for live stream, it has improved significantly in the past few months. Of course, at this point in time, comparing to the non-live stream part, it has a lower economics simply because we just started, and it takes some effort to invest for the growth. But we do believe in the long-term, the live stream [profitability] wouldn't be too different, will be quite similar to what we see in the other part of the marketplace platform.

從直播的單位經濟效益來看，過去幾個月已經有了顯著的提升。當然，就目前而言，與非直播部分相比，它的經濟效益較低，因為我們才剛起步，需要投入一些精力來實現成長。但我們確實相信，從長遠來看，直播的獲利能力不會有太大差異，將與我們在市場平台的其他部分看到的非常相似。

In terms of the AOV that you asked earlier, we started live stream with a low AOV compared to the marketplace. As time goes, it will start to converge. And now in some market it's very similar, some markets even a little bit higher, some markets bit lower. So it is mix at this stage. But eventually, in the big market, it will converge as time goes. In the smaller market, it might have different variations, but I don't think it's significant for the purpose of discussion here.

就您之前詢問的 AOV 而言，我們以與市場相比較低的 AOV 開始直播。隨著時間的推移，它將開始收斂。現在，在某些市場上，情況非常相似，有些市場甚至略高一些，有些市場則略低一些。因此現階段是混合的。但最終，在大市場中，隨著時間的推移，它會趨於融合。在較小的市場中，可能會有不同的變化，但我認為這對於這裡的討論目的並不重要。

And regarding Free Fire, the -- so far, the positive trends we have seen across various different markets for our global operations. And currently, no material development in India. We are still making changes to the Free Fire India to best accommodate our preference -- users' preference locally, and we'll update the market when there's more material development.

關於 Free Fire，到目前為止，我們已經看到全球業務在不同市場呈現正面的趨勢。目前，印度尚無實質進展。我們仍在對 Free Fire India 進行修改，以最好地適應我們的偏好——當地用戶的偏好，當有更多材料開發時，我們會更新市場。

Our next question comes from the line of Jiong Shao from Barclays.

我們的下一個問題來自巴克萊銀行的邵炯。

My first question is about your growth trend in the near term. You -- has return back to growth over 20% for the first time in the last 1.5 years. You changed your strategy a couple of times during that period. Usually, this kind of momentum doesn't sort of change very quickly. So based on what you are seeing and also given what you have said so far about Indonesia, could you talk about your near term growth momentum right now in the first quarter? Should we expect sort of similar to what you saw in Q4?

我的第一個問題是關於您近期的成長趨勢。你們——在過去的 1.5 年裡首次恢復了 20% 以上的成長。在此期間，您多次改變策略。通常情況下，這種勢頭不會很快改變。那麼，根據您的觀察以及您目前對印尼的評價，您能談談目前第一季的近期成長動能嗎？我們是否應該期待與您在第四季度看到的情況類似？

My second question is about your sort of the mix between core marketplace and the VAS. I know you talked about the VAS, which is the logistics sort of decline year-over-year, was at least partially, [not] mostly due to the subsidies for shipping. But over the last few quarters, it looks like your core marketplace growth has been very, very good, right? It's 30%, 40% and your VAS growth has been relatively low, very low and negative in Q4. Other than the subsidies, are there other reasons behind -- or strategic reasons behind these pretty meaningful differences? And if you add subsidies back, would the VAS growth [be] somewhat similar to your core marketplace growth?

我的第二個問題是關於核心市場和增值服務的結合。我知道您談到了增值服務，即物流業務的同比下降，至少是部分（而非大部分）由於運輸補貼造成的。但在過去幾個季度裡，看起來你們的核心市場成長非常非常好，對嗎？它是30％，40％，且您的增值服務成長率在第四季度相對較低，非常低且為負。除了補貼之外，這些相當有意義的差異背後還有其他原因──或者是戰略原因嗎？如果加上補貼，增值服務的成長是否會與核心市場的成長有些相似？

I think for the growth trend for the near term, I think we have seen pretty good growth in Q1. I mean you probably can see from the external data as well, although it's not very accurate. The -- but bear in mind that Q1, there's a Ramadan season for Indonesia in particular, and we have [Chinese] New Year in some other markets. So we do take -- we have to take into the consideration for seasonality. But yes -- but all in all, we see -- we're pretty happy with what we see in Q1 so far.

我認為就近期的成長趨勢而言，我們在第一季看到了相當不錯的成長。我的意思是你可能也可以從外部資料中看到，儘管它不是很準確。但請記住，第一季度，印尼正值齋戒月季節，而其他一些市場則迎來中國新年。所以我們確實要考慮季節性。但是的 - 但總而言之，我們看到 - 我們對迄今為止第一季的表現感到非常滿意。

On the VAS versus core marketplace, I would encourage you to look at the core marketplace more closely to measure our overall platform growth as well as monetization. The reason for VAS top line growth to deviate from that is because of accounting treatment that has the contra revenue effect caused by shipping subsidies. So that actually does not only affect the bottom line, but also affect the top line for that revenue segment, causing a departure in overall trend.

在加值服務與核心市場方面，我鼓勵您更仔細地關注核心市場，以衡量我們整體平台的成長和貨幣化。增值服務營收成長與此偏離的原因是會計處理產生了航運補貼導致的抵銷收入效應。因此，這實際上不僅影響底線，還影響該收入部門的頂線，導致整體趨勢的偏離。

We cannot discuss the non-GAAP revenue -- adjusted revenue, but if you add that back, I think the overall growth is consistent with the platform growth.

我們無法討論非 GAAP 收入——調整後的收入，但如果將其加回去，我認為整體成長與平台成長是一致的。

Your next question comes from the line of Ranjan Sharma from JPMorgan Singapore.

您的下一個問題來自摩根大通新加坡的 Ranjan Sharma。

Two questions from my side. Firstly, for Chris on live streaming. Is there any cohort analysis that the team has done on the impact to live stream and GMV as incentives are a move for buyers?

我有兩個問題。首先，感謝 Chris 的直播。由於激勵措施針對的是買家，因此團隊是否對直播和 GMV 的影響進行過群組分析？

And the second question is for Forrest. On Garena, still the discussion is around Free Fire, but are there any developments to move away from a single titled franchise to a more broader studio?

第二個問題是問福瑞斯特的。在 Garena 上，討論仍然圍繞著 Free Fire，但是否有任何進展可以從單一名稱的系列轉向更廣泛的工作室？

For the live stream on the cohort, yes, we do look at the cohort for live stream, and we're seeing pretty good retention and repurchase rates for live stream. But on top of that, I think more importantly for us, actually for live stream is we have seen very good new user percentage coming to live stream, which means that it does help us to reach out to a segment that we might not complete -- reach out to before, which help us to grow the marketplace further as time goes. And the -- we also observed that the new user coming from -- coming to live stream also cross purchase from the long live stream platform as well. I think these are the encouraging signs we see. And that's also how actually we have been reducing our -- improving our economics in the past few months.

對於同類群組的直播，是的，我們確實會關注直播群組，並且我們看到直播的保留率和回購率相當不錯。但除此之外，我認為對我們來說更重要的是，實際上對於直播而言，我們看到非常高比例的新用戶觀看直播，這意味著它確實幫助我們接觸到以前可能無法完成的細分市場，這有助於我們隨著時間的推移進一步擴大市場。我們也觀察到，來自直播的新用戶也從長直播平台進行交叉購買。我認為這些是我們看到的令人鼓舞的跡象。這也是我們過去幾個月實際上減少——改善經濟的方法。

Yes. Regarding Garena, I think Garena is definitely not a single franchise platform. We have multiple titles, both self-developed and published across different genres, including Battle Royale, MOBA, sports, casual, RPG, et cetera. It's just that the super successful Free Fire franchise seems to [dwarf] in comparison the other titles, which are also highly successful and very long-lasting for Garena so far, thanks to our global team's very strong operations and ability to build a strong pipeline in content, in partnership with our partners as well as self-development and also in growing our global e-sports communities.

是的。關於Garena，我認為Garena絕對不是一個單一的特許經營平台。我們擁有多個自主開發和發布的作品，涵蓋不同類型的遊戲，包括大逃殺、MOBA、運動、休閒、角色扮演等。只是，超級成功的《Free Fire》系列與其他遊戲相比似乎顯得微不足道，到目前為止，其他遊戲對 Garena 來說也非常成功並且非常持久，這要歸功於我們全球團隊強大的運營能力和在內容方面建立強大渠道的能力，與我們的合作夥伴合作以及自我發展，以及發展我們的全球電子競技社區。

I think that being said, we -- as always, we're very focused on building future pipeline in terms of expanding our portfolio of genres and type of content, including more user-generated content, deploy more AI tools in building -- in [furthering] new models of interaction with our users. All of these things are going on in the background that our teams have been very much focused on. So we are very excited about the long-term prospects of Garena, again, as a leading global game company.

我認為話雖如此，我們一如既往地非常專注於建立未來的管道，擴大我們的類型和內容類型組合，包括更多的用戶生成內容，部署更多的人工智慧工具來建立——[進一步]與用戶互動的新模式。所有這些事情都在幕後進行，我們的團隊一直非常關注。因此，我們對 Garena 作為全球領先遊戲公司的長期前景感到非常興奮。

Your final question comes from the line of Ellie Jiang from Macquarie.

您的最後一個問題來自麥格理的 Ellie Jiang。

I just have kind of few questions on the e-commerce side. Just now management, you talked about our price competitiveness. Just wondering how do we maintain this level of supply chain sustainability and how do we see our merchants general overlap compared to the other e-commerce app in Indonesia?

我只是對電子商務方面有一些疑問。剛才管理層您談到了我們的價格競爭力。只是想知道我們如何維持這種水準的供應鏈永續性，以及與印尼的其他電子商務應用相比，我們如何看待我們的商家整體重疊？

Also, in a slightly longer term, what is the end game for, I guess, overall e-commerce dynamics? And how do we really evaluate longer-term profitability level on the EBITDA?

另外，從稍微長遠來看，我認為整個電子商務動態的最終結果是什麼？那麼我們如何真正評估 EBITDA 的長期獲利水準呢？

Yes. I think -- for the price competitors, I think as a platform we are generally [most] competitive in the market, as you can benchmark from internal numbers. The key to sustain product competitiveness are from few angles. And number one is we have the scale. So scale does bring advantage. So assuming that the same seller sell 100 items, our platform sell 10 on the other platforms, clearly, we have a slightly better [banking] power in terms of how much price that can be set. I think that's number one.

是的。我認為 - 對於價格競爭對手而言，我認為作為一個平台，我們在市場上通常最具競爭力，你可以從內部數據中進行基準測試。保持產品競爭力的關鍵在於幾個角度。首先，我們有規模。因此規模確實可以帶來優勢。因此，假設同一個賣家銷售 100 件商品，我們的平台在其他平台上銷售 10 件，顯然，我們在定價方面擁有略勝一籌的權力。我認為這是最重要的。

Number two is the cost-to-serve from a seller perspective. The -- we would like to make this -- the process for a seller to transact, to make that business successful on our platform much simpler compared to the other platforms, that come with the tools, policy and the fundamental concept of how the marketplace operates.

第二是從賣家角度考慮的服務成本。我們希望讓賣家的交易流程比其他平台更簡單，從而使我們平台上的業務成功開展，並附帶工具、政策和市場運作的基本概念。

I think the third one is to be able to identify the right skills, right sellers through our traffic allocation algorithms and policies, of course. It's about how can we make sure the sellers with a good performance and with a good price competitiveness will be presented -- will be rewarded with the better traffic on our platform. So we can sell more so they can reduce the price further because the scale they achieved. And they can also reduce the operation to -- operation cost to serve the customers and then this will flow to a very positive direction and the win-win for everybody from the -- both buyer and seller perspective. I think that's probably on the price competitive side.

我認為第三個當然是能夠透過我們的流量分配演算法和政策來識別正確的技能、正確的賣家。關鍵在於我們如何確保業績優異、價格有競爭力的賣家能夠在我們的平台上獲得更好的流量。因此，我們可以賣出更多產品，而他們則可以因為規模擴大而進一步降低價格。而且他們還可以降低營運成本來為客戶提供服務，然後這將朝著非常積極的方向發展，從買賣雙方的角度來看，實現雙贏。我認為這可能是價格競爭方面。

Just to add to that, I think another part of price competitiveness is to be able to different -- to offer differential services to different type of selling in the platform. There are sellers who operate the full value chain, there are sellers who are very specialized in part value chain, for example, on the production side or [whether] importing side. It's very important for us as a marketplace platform to serve this well -- to serve them well, to enable them to sell well on our platform so we can leverage on their strength rather than sort of they need to be better on everything, and it makes a bit harder for many of the sellers to excel in the platform. But again, there are a lot of detailed [operation] matters that we have to work on to make sure that this work out smoothly.

補充一點，我認為價格競爭力的另一個部分是能夠為平台上不同類型的銷售提供差異化服務。有些賣家經營整個價值鏈，有些賣家非常專注於部分價值鏈，例如生產者或進口方。作為一個市場平台，我們非常有必要為他們提供良好的服務，使他們能夠在我們的平台上銷售良好，這樣我們就可以利用他們的優勢，而不是讓他們需要在各個方面都做得更好，而這對許多賣家來說，在平台上脫穎而出就有點困難了。但同樣，我們必須處理許多細節問題，以確保一切順利進行。

I think that in terms of the long-term profitability, my feeling is that our market is not too different from the other major e-commerce platform that you have seen before. I think similar profit level that is reasonable. In some market a little bit better because of our market position, because of the nature of the retail margin in the market, some market might be a bit more competitive. But in general, we don't see our market too different compared to the other market and the market leader -- as a market leader in the platform. We will be able to achieve similar possibilities as a market leader in the other market.

我認為，從長期盈利能力來看，我的感覺是我們的市場與您之前見過的其他主要電子商務平台沒有太大區別。我認為類似的利潤水平是合理的。在某些市場，由於我們的市場地位，由於市場零售利潤的本質，我們的狀況會好一些，某些市場的競爭可能會更激烈一些。但總體而言，我們認為我們的市場與其他市場和市場領導者（作為平台的市場領導者）並沒有太大不同。作為其他市場的市場領導者，我們將能夠實現類似的可能性。

This concludes our question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Ms. Min Ju Song for any closing remarks.

我們的問答環節到此結束。我想將會議交還給宋敏珠女士，請她做最後發言。

Thank you all for joining today's call. We look forward to speaking to all of you again next quarter. Thank you.

感謝大家參加今天的電話會議。我們期待下個季度再次與大家交談。謝謝。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。