Ryanair Holdings PLC (RYAAY) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Okay. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Ryanair H1 results conference call. We're joined by all the members of the team from different parts of the globe. And we'll -- I'm going to run through quick highlights. As Neil Sorahan, our group CFO, as usual, to give you a comment on the financial highlights, and then we will maximize the time for Q&A.

好的。早安，女士們先生們。歡迎參加瑞安航空 H1 業績電話會議。來自全球不同地區的所有團隊成員都加入了我們。我們將會－我將快速瀏覽一下重點。我們集團財務長尼爾索拉漢（Neil Sorahan）像往常一樣，給大家評論一下財務亮點，然後我們將最大限度地安排問答時間。

So you'll see this morning, we reported H1 after-tax profits of EUR1.8 billion, 18% lower than the prior year H1 profit of EUR2.18 billion. Highlights at the half year were traffic, strong growth, 9%, to a record of EUR115 million. It would have been higher, but for the repeated Boeing delays. At the key theme, with average fares fell in the half year by (inaudible), but the trend is improving. We were down 15% in Q1, down 7% in Q2. We'll turn to Q3 on -- when we look at forward guidance.

所以你今天早上會看到，我們公佈的上半年稅後利潤為 18 億歐元，比上年上半年利潤 21.8 億歐元低 18%。半年的亮點是流量，強勁成長 9%，達到創紀錄的 1.15 億歐元。如果不是波音公司一再延誤，這個數字本來會更高。就關鍵主題而言，半年平均票價下降了（聽不清楚），但趨勢正在改善。我們第一季下降了 15%，第二季下降了 7%。當我們研究前瞻性指引時，我們將轉向第三季。

We have 170 737 Gamechangers in a 608 aircraft fleet at the end of the half, and that had risen to 172 by the end of October. We have 5 new bases, 200 new routes opened this summer. The approved OTA partnerships now cover over 90% of all OTAs. These protect consumers from being overcharged by OTAs. We give OTAs direct feed into the ryanair.com website, but in return, they guarantee that the customer will get only to win our prices. We also get the e-mail accurate cost of (inaudible)and accurate customer credit cards. So we have a direct relationship with every cost in our booking through approved OTAs.

截至上半年末，我們的機隊共有 608 架飛機，共有 170 737 架遊戲規則改變者，到 10 月底已增至 172 架。今年夏天我們有5個新基地、200條新航線。目前，已核准的 OTA 合作夥伴涵蓋了所有 OTA 的 90% 以上。這些措施可保護消費者免於 OTA 多收費。我們將 OTA 直接提供給 ryanair.com 網站，但作為回報，他們保證客戶只會贏得我們的價格。我們也透過電子郵件獲得準確的（聽不清楚）費用和準確的客戶信用卡資訊。因此，我們透過核准的 OTA 與預訂中的每項費用都有直接關係。

I think again, our strong balance sheet has enabled us to take a very strong fuel hedge position. We're 85% hedged for the second half of FY25 at $79 a barrel. We've jumped on recent points of weakness to increase our FY26 cover to 75% at $77 per barrel. We completed the $700 million share buyback in August. And as of today, we've done just over 300 of the -- 30% of the EUR800 million follow-on share buyback. We expect that pace to continue, will probably run out until about April, May of 2025. And the Board on Friday confirmed the interim dividend of EUR0.223 dividend per share, has been declared and to be paid in February 2022.

我再次認為，我們強大的資產負債表使我們能夠採取非常強大的燃料對沖頭寸。我們在 2025 財年下半年以每桶 79 美元的價格進行了 85% 的避險。我們抓住了最近的弱點，將 2026 財年的覆蓋率提高到 75%，每桶價格為 77 美元。我們在 8 月完成了 7 億美元的股票回購。截至今天，我們已經完成了 8 億歐元後續股票回購的 300 多 - 30%。我們預計這一速度將持續下去，可能會持續到 2025 年 4 月、5 月左右。

Looking back at the half year, and revenues were resilient, rising 10% to [EUR0.74 billion], rightly ahead of our 9% traffic growth. I think the key metric that operating costs performed well. They rose 8%, lagging behind the 9% traffic growth as the field savings offset higher staff and costs to make our 2 in part Boeing delivery delays. We found ourselves gearing up for Boeing deliveries last summer, but being over crewed, over staffed and then finishing about 5 million passengers short of where we were regionally going to be. Yet if you take the half year, operating costs rose slightly less than traffic.

回顧半年，營收表現強勁，成長 10% 至 [7.4 億歐元]，正好領先我們 9% 的流量成長。我認為關鍵指標是營運成本表現良好。它們上漲了 8%，落後於 9% 的客流量成長，因為現場節省抵消了更高的人員和成本，使我們的 2 部分波音交貨延遲。去年夏天，我們發現自己正在為波音飛機的交付做準備，但人員超載，人員超載，最終運送的乘客人數比我們在該地區的預期目標少了大約 500 萬人次。但如果以半年來看，營運成本的增幅略低於流量的增幅。

The balance sheet remained strong. Gross cash at the end of the half year is over EUR3.3 billion. Net cash was just EUR600 million at the September 30. And that is despite paying out a EUR900 million in CapEx, EUR900 million in share buybacks and a EUR200 million final dividend in H1. We own our entire Boeing 737 fleet, that's 580 aircraft. It's fully unencumbered. This, I think, materially widens Ryanair's cost advantage over our competitors in Europe, almost all of whom now works both to expensive finance leases, financing costs and leasing costs.

資產負債表依然強勁。半年末現金總額超過 33 億歐元。截至 9 月 30 日，淨現金僅為 6 億歐元。我們擁有整個波音 737 機隊，共有 580 架飛機。它完全不受阻礙。我認為，這大大擴大了瑞安航空相對於歐洲競爭對手的成本優勢，幾乎所有歐洲競爭對手現在都面臨昂貴的融資租賃、融資成本和租賃成本。

As I said, we expect completing the [EUR800 million] follow-on buyback program sometime in May 2025. When we set that Ryanair will have returned almost EUR9 billion, including dividends to shareholders since 2028 -- since 2008, and we bought back approximately 36% of our original issued share capital.

正如我所說，我們預計在2025 年5 月的某個時候完成[8 億歐元] 後續回購計畫。股利－自2008 年以來，我們回購了大約90 億歐元我們原始已發行股本的36%。

In terms of fleet and growth. So at the end of October, we had 172 Gamechangers in our fleet. We now expect the remaining 9 Q3 deliveries after deliveries due in September -- or in October, November, December will be delayed into Q4. So we're hopeful we get those January, February, March, if the Boeing strike settles reasonably quickly. However, there's no doubt that we're going to now miss some of -- when we take those 9 aircraft in Q4, that leaves us with 29 more aircraft to take for summer 2025. We had originally penciled in to deliver those this winter, we now think it's reasonable, and we have no guidance on this, but to delay about half of those aircraft. So we think we get about 15 of those 29 aircraft prior to the end of June. In other words, in time for summer at 2025. But half of them will be delayed into the winter of 2025, 2026.

在機隊和成長方面。截至 10 月底，我們的機隊中有 172 架遊戲規則改變者。我們現在預計 9 月或 10 月、11 月、12 月到期的剩餘 9 架第三季交付將推遲到第四季。因此，如果波音罷工能夠很快解決，我們希望在一月、二月、三月得到這些。然而，毫無疑問，我們現在會錯過一些——當我們在第四季度接收這 9 架飛機時，我們在 2025 年夏季還需要接收 29 架飛機。認為這是合理的，對此我們沒有任何指導，但要推遲大約一半的飛機。因此，我們認為我們會在 6 月底之前獲得這 29 架飛機中的大約 15 架。也就是說，趕在2025年夏天。

And accordingly, that means I think it's sensible now we begin to walk back our original -- our scheduled traffic. Originally, for FY25, we had expected to carry 205 million passengers, because of the Boeing (inaudible), we've had to walk that back to 200 million. In fact, I think we come in a shade just under 200 million in the full year. The original target for FY26 was 215 million passengers. We're now going to have to walk that back, I think, to about 210 million, with the possibility that it may have to get shaved more, it might come back to 208 million, entirely dependent on whenever Boeing settled the strike and then can give us some reasonably accurate update delivery on aircraft.

因此，這意味著我認為現在我們開始恢復原來的東西——我們預定的交通量是明智的。最初，對於 2025 財年，我們預計載客量為 2.05 億人次，但由於波音（聽不清楚）的原因，我們不得不將這一數字調回 2 億人次。事實上，我認為我們全年的收入略低於 2 億。 2026 財年的最初目標是 2.15 億人次旅客。我認為，我們現在必須將這個數字回退到大約 2.1 億，並且可能需要削減更多，它可能會回到 2.08 億，完全取決於波音何時解決罷工問題，然後可以為我們提供一些相當準確的飛機更新資訊。

We are working closely with Boeing. I speak to Stefano on a weekly basis, spoke again on Friday. There's the labor voting on the new deal today and hope to have the results tonight. I'm impressed, by the way, the work is (inaudible)have done. They're there on the ground in Seattle. You can lift the phone. You could talk to somebody. That is something that was from day 1 under the previous management. And he is busting it good trying to get deliveries. In fact, even when the strike they brought in management, we had 2 aircraft ready for delivery when the strike started. They brought in extra management to those 2 aircraft out to us during October. So they're doing everything they can and they have our full support.

我們正在與波音公司密切合作。我每週都會與斯特凡諾交談，週五再次交談。今天工黨將就新政進行投票，希望今晚能得到結果。順便說一句，工作已經（聽不清楚）已經完成，這給我留下了深刻的印象。他們就在西雅圖的地面上。您可以拿起手機。你可以和某人談談。這是前任管理階層第一天就開始做的事情。他正在竭盡全力爭取送貨。事實上，即使他們在罷工中引入了管理人員，我們在罷工開始時仍有兩架飛機可供交付。他們在 10 月為我們的這兩架飛機帶來了額外的管理。因此，他們正在竭盡全力，並且得到了我們的全力支持。

I think though this is a positive, generally, for the industry. We are going to be short aircraft ourselves for FY25. We're going to be more towards aircraft in FY26. And looking forward, experience this year, we were surprised by the price softness. We've come off 2 years in summer '23 and summer '24 of 20% price increases due to post-COVID recovery. This year, we were a little bit surprised by the price softness. We think it's due to spending tightness in Europe, certainly the impact of the OTAs and the fact that we're 5 million passengers short on our original target growth.

我認為這對於整個行業來說總體來說是積極的。我們將在 2025 財年減少飛機數量。 2026 財年我們將更關注飛機。展望今年，我們對價格疲軟感到驚訝。由於新冠疫情後的復甦，我們在 2023 年夏季和 24 年夏季已經連續兩年實現了 20% 的價格上漲。今年，我們對價格疲軟感到有點驚訝。我們認為這是由於歐洲支出緊張，當然還有 OTA 的影響，以及我們距離最初的成長目標還差 500 萬人次這一事實。

We are constrained in our delivery next year. We know that the rest of the European industry is heavily constrained because of the Pratt & Whitney repairs, and the OEMs are still going to increase production. I would be, medium term, very optimistic on where pricing is going to go because of these capacity constraints. I saw some of the coverage that today in Ireland and the UK, all bit of a negative, Ryanair would be sure scaling back its growth ambitions. We will still get to our 300 million passengers by [2035] if Boeing gets the MAX 10 certified, but we're going to have to grow a little bit slower in FY25, FY26. Once we get the balance of the 29 outstanding aircraft, and that might be into summer of 2026, then we'll be back up to our target of 225 million, 230 million passengers. But I think these constraints should be positive for pricing into summer d summer '26.

我們明年的交貨受到限制。我們知道，歐洲其他行業由於普惠公司的維修而受到嚴重限制，而原始設備製造商仍將增加產量。從中期來看，由於產能限制，我對定價走向非常樂觀。我看到今天在愛爾蘭和英國的一些報道，全都是負面的，瑞安航空肯定會縮減其成長雄心。如果波音獲得 MAX 10 認證，到 [2035 年]，我們仍將迎來 3 億乘客，但我們在 2025 財年、2026 財年的成長速度將不得不放慢一點。一旦我們獲得了 29 架優秀飛機的餘額，這可能會持續到 2026 年夏季，那麼我們將回到 2.25 億、2.3 億乘客的目標。但我認為這些限制對於 26 年夏季的定價應該是正面的。

As you're aware, the Board is reviewing the area of control. We confirmed that over 49% of Ryanair issued share capital is held by EU nationals in September. It's appropriate to review the potential variation of either the ownership restrictions, which prohibits non-EU nationals acquiring our ordinary shares; or the voting restrictions, which is how you exercise control. That process continues. We've consulted thus far with about 60% of our shareholders. We think it will take another 3 or 4 (inaudible)that we would hope to -- the Board would hope to make a decision on that, whether we -- sensible to vary the ownership or the control, sometime in the first half or the middle of 2025.

如您所知，董事會正在審查控制範圍。 9 月我們確認，超過 49% 的瑞安航空已發行股本由歐盟國民持有。適當審查所有權限制的潛在變化，該限制禁止非歐盟國民收購我們的普通股；或投票限制，這是您行使控制權的方式。這個過程仍在繼續。到目前為止，我們已經諮詢了約 60% 的股東。我們認為還需要 3 或 4 個（聽不清楚），我們希望董事會希望就此做出決定，無論我們是否明智地改變所有權或控制權，在上半年或下半年的某個時間2025 年中期。

Going the key element then, which is outlook. So at this point in time, and I say this, we have about 70% of the bookings in the system for Q3. We have only about 11% of the bookings in the system for Q4. So we have very little visibility. However, we're pretty sure at this stage we're going to finish somewhere between about 198 million to 200 million passengers, the midpoint, just over 199 million, up about 8% on the year, subject to no worsening of the current Boeing delivery rate.

接下來是關鍵要素，那就是前景。所以在這個時間點，我想說的是，我們的系統中有大約 70% 的第三季預訂。第四季系統的預訂量僅為 11% 左右。所以我們的能見度非​​常低。然而，我們非常確定，在現階段，我們將完成約 1.98 億至 2 億乘客之間的航班​​量，中間值略高於 1.99 億，同比增長約 8%，前提是當前波音的情況不會惡化。交貨率。

Unit costs are performing well, and we now expect full year unit cost to be broadly flat to our fuel hedge saving strong interest income and some modest aircraft delay compensation will largely offset ex-fuel cost inflation, most notably, crew pay and productivity increases, higher handling and ATC costs, and the cost that inefficiency we suffered this year because of repeated Boeing 737s fleets. Forward bookings into Q3 are strong and decline pricing appears to be moderating.

單位成本表現良好，我們現在預計全年單位成本將與我們的燃油對沖基本持平，從而節省豐厚的利息收入，一些適度的飛機延誤補償將在很大程度上抵消燃油成本通脹，最值得注意的是機組人員工資和生產率的提高，更高的處理和空中交通管製成本，以及今年由於波音 737 機隊重複使用而造成的效率低下的成本。第三季的遠期預訂強勁，降價似乎正在放緩。

Again, what does that mean? Well, if again, if I go back, Q1 pricing was down 15%, Q2 pricing is down 7%. Hugely prices will be down by less than that, but it will be slightly down. So I think it's more single-digit decline. The trend, I think, is favorable. But then we get into Q4, and Q4, we will have a very challenging prior year comp because half of Easter was in is Q4. None of Easter is in this year's Q4. But at this point in time, Q3, the bookings are strong, pricing is -- the price declines are moderating, but we still have 30% of Q3 bookings to take, and those will be the key closing (inaudible)bookings, with 0 Q4 visibility, and the quarter won't benefit from last year's early Easter.

再說一遍，這是什麼意思？好吧，如果我再回顧一下，第一季的定價下降了 15%，第二季的定價下降了 7%。價格大幅下降的幅度將小於這個數字，但會略有下降。所以我認為下降幅度更大。我認為趨勢是有利的。但接下來我們進入第四季度，第四季度，我們將面臨去年非常具有挑戰性的比較，因為復活節的一半時間是在第四季度。今年第四季沒有復活節。但在第三季的這個時間點，預訂量很強勁，定價是——價格下降正在放緩，但我們仍然有30% 的第三季預訂量，這些將是關鍵的結束（聽不清楚）預訂量，其中 0第四季的可見性，該季度不會受益於去年提前的復活節。

That would make the prior year Q4 comps down. And therefore, I think it's too early this morning to provide any meaningful FY25 PAT guidance. The final outcome will be certainly to avoiding adverse developments during the remaining 5 months of the year, especially with the risk of outbreak at the conflict in Ukraine and the Middle East, repeated ATC short staffing and capacity restrictions, and our further Boeing delivery delays.

這將使上一年第四季的業績下降。因此，我認為現在提供任何有意義的 25 財年 PAT 指導還為時過早。最終的結果肯定是避免今年剩餘 5 個月出現不利的事態發展，特別是考慮到烏克蘭和中東衝突爆發的風險、空中交通管制反覆出現的人員短缺和運力限制，以及我們的波音交付進一步延遲。

And Neil, can I hand over to you with any comment in -- I think the highlights you'd like to throw over their people's attention to on the balance sheet and the P&L.

尼爾，我可以向您轉達任何評論嗎？

Okay. Thanks, Michael. You covered it fairly well, but I'll reiterate. Pleased with how costs went in the first half of the year. The hedging that we locked in for the year is delivering good savings, but we're focusing across all of the other lines as well. And that's enabled us now to improve the guidance on the full year unit cost to broadly flat. Balance sheet is rock solid. BBB+ investment grade rating. Over 580 aircraft onward, which gives us a massive advantage over everybody else.

好的。謝謝，麥可。你已經講得很好了，但我還是要重申。對上半年的成本進度感到滿意。我們今年鎖定的對沖措施帶來了可觀的節省，但我們也關注所有其他產品線。這使我們現在能夠將全年單位成本的指導提高到基本持平。資產負債表堅如磐石。 BBB+投資等級評級。超過 580 架飛機，這使我們比其他公司擁有巨大優勢。

And another reason as to why the cost advantage and the cost gap between us and everyone else is widening because we're financing ourselves through cash when everyone else is out there raising expensive leases and expensive debt. Distribution is going well. We're about one-third of the way through the EUR800 million buyback, as Michael said. That will hopefully get us out the summer of next year. We've now locked in some modest savings on fuel hedging into next year, which is very important in this current very volatile oil market that we're in.

我們與其他人之間的成本優勢和成本差距正在擴大的另一個原因是，當其他人都在籌集昂貴的租賃和債務時，我們會透過現金為自己融資。分銷進展順利。正如麥可所說，我們的 8 億歐元回購計畫已完成約三分之一。這有望讓我們度過明年夏天。我們現在已經鎖定了明年燃料對沖的一些適度節省，這對於我們目前所處的非常不穩定的石油市場非常重要。

And then on CapEx, while we're still guiding EUR2.3 billion CapEx for this year, having spent about EUR1 billion in the first half of the year. The reality is that some of that is now likely to slip into next year when we've got greater visibility on where and when the aircraft are coming in from Boeing, we will revisit that. But it's a timing issue more so than anything else.

然後是資本支出，雖然我們今年上半年的資本支出約為 10 億歐元，但今年的資本支出指引仍為 23 億歐元。現實情況是，其中一些現在可能會推遲到明年，當我們對波音飛機的地點和時間有了更清晰的了解時，我們將重新審視這一點。但這更重要的是一個時間問題。

I don't think really, Mike, have much more to add.

麥克，我真的不認為還有更多要補充的。

(inaudible). Okay? let's all go to Q&A, please, and spread some of the questions around the wider management team here.

（聽不清楚）。好的？請讓我們都進入問答環節，並向更廣泛的管理團隊傳播一些問題。

(Operator Instructions) And our first question comes from James Hollins from BNP Paribas.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自法國巴黎銀行的詹姆斯‧霍林斯。

Just one for me, actually. So feel free to spend twice as long as you would have done on this. I think the ATC situation, I mean, clearly been discussed at length, while set in my investors. Maybe any chance you could quantify what the ATA situation was? Not just in Q1, I mean, it seems to me, from your comments, you very much saw that lasted into the summer. So we start to think about, I guess, fiscal '26 and the not easy comps. But just as much detail as you can on -- and I think you did note it was probably a bigger impact than you had thought. So just I'd love to hear your thoughts on this maybe as well.

實際上，只給我一個。因此，請隨意花費兩倍於您在這方面花費的時間。我認為 ATC 的情況，我的意思是，在我的投資者設定的同時，已經進行了明確的詳細討論。也許您有機會量化 ATA 的情況嗎？不僅僅是在第一季度，我的意思是，在我看來，從您的評論中，您非常清楚地看到這種情況一直持續到夏天。因此，我想我們開始考慮 26 財年和不容易的比較。但盡可能詳細地描述——我想你確實注意到這可能比你想像的影響更大。所以我也很想聽聽您對此的想法。

I'll give you an intro and Eddie will talk or maybe Jason McGinnis as well. I just missed the OTA -- impact the OTA, online travel agency dispute lasted -- it started last November. Now it's undoubtedly took 2 or 3 -- 2 points off our load factors in the third and fourth quarters last year. But it did hit us this summer, by (inaudible)I allowed for. I mean the 1 reason I was a bit specific is I didn't see any of these bookings going to our competitors. I mean there was no notable bump in load factors or yields of either easyJet or Wizz or the others.

我會為你做一個介紹，艾迪（Eddie）或是傑森·麥金尼斯（Jason McGinnis）也會發言。我剛剛錯過了OTA——影響OTA，線上旅行社之爭一直持續——它從去年11月開始。現在，毫無疑問，我們去年第三季和第四季的載客率下降了 2 或 3 - 2 個百分點。但在我允許的情況下，今年夏天它確實襲擊了我們。我的意思是，我說得有點具體的原因之一是我沒有看到任何這些預訂流向我們的競爭對手。我的意思是，無論是易捷航空、維茲航空或其他航空，其載客率或收益率都沒有顯著上升。

But I think we've seen a strong bump in both bookings and load, and for some of the tour offers this year to easyJet, to Wizz, et cetera. So I think some of that traffic did migrate away from the OTAs and Ryanair on to the kind of tour operator site. I would, by the way, however -- was it the right thing to do? Absolutely, we would fight with the OTAs again tomorrow morning and with anybody who tried to interpose themselves between us and our customers, particularly when they -- by imposing themselves, they are overcharging our customers and giving us fake e-mails and fake payment details.

但我認為我們已經看到預訂量和負載量都出現了強勁增長，今年的一些旅遊優惠也包括易捷航空、威茲航空等。因此，我認為部分流量確實從 OTA 和瑞安航空轉移到了旅遊業者網站。不過，順便說一句，我想──這樣做正確嗎？當然，明天早上我們將再次與OTA 以及任何試圖介入我們和客戶之間的人進行鬥爭，特別是當他們通過強加自己的方式向我們的客戶收取過高費用並向我們提供虛假電子郵件和虛假付款詳細資訊時。

Now I'm pleased to say the relationship with over 90 the OTAs is now excellent. We've only 2 standouts who have not yet stepped to the approved OTA deals. In other words, 2 OTAs who are still overcharging our customers, and that's booking.com, although they are small in volume terms in Europe; and e-Dreams in Spain. Other than that, everybody else has signed up.

現在我很高興地說我們與 90 多家 OTA 的關係非常好。我們只有 2 位傑出人士尚未參與批准的 OTA 交易。換句話說，有 2 家 OTA 仍然向我們的客戶收取過高的費用，那就是 booking.com，儘管它們在歐洲的銷量很小；和西班牙的電子夢。除此之外，其他人都已經報名了。

So I think if I -- and I'm guessing here, if we're looking at how much of our decline in pricing, if you take our pricing in Q1, Q2, we're down 10%. I think it's reason for now to believe that maybe up to half of it is the OTAs and half of it is pressure on consumer spending. I don't think you can get away from the pressure on consumer spending issue. We went from 2 years with pricing going up 30%, 20%. We did expect to moderate this year. I mean I thought we'd be up between 5% and 10%, and we were down 10%. Sometimes it happens. There's nothing wrong with the model.

所以我認為，如果我——我在這裡猜測，如果我們看看我們的定價下降了多少，如果你考慮我們第一季、第二季的定價，我們會下降 10%。我認為現在有理由相信，其中一半是線上旅行社，一半是消費者支出的壓力。我認為你無法擺脫消費者支出問題的壓力。我們從 2 年開始，價格上漲了 30%、20%。我們確實預計今年會有所放緩。我的意思是，我以為我們會上漲 5% 到 10%，但結果卻下跌了 10%。有時會發生。模型沒有什麼問題。

And I would always sacrifice short-term fares for market share growth. And we have taken enormous quantities of market share from competitors across most of the major European markets this year. Maybe because they will constrain repairing back with the engines or have been, I mean, in the case I think of easyJet, they still haven't recovered their pre-COVID traffic volume, We're operating at 40% more than our pre-COVID traffic. So I would always sacrifice short-term pricing and short-term profitability for long term -- for growth and longer term (inaudible).

我總是會為了市場佔有率的成長而犧牲短期票價。今年，我們從大多數歐洲主要市場的競爭對手手中奪取了大量的市場份額。也許是因為他們會限制引擎的維修，或者是，我的意思是，就我想到的易捷航空而言，他們仍然沒有恢復到新冠疫情前的交通量，我們的運作速度比之前多了40% 。因此，我總是會為了長期成長和長期成長（聽不清楚）而犧牲短期定價和短期獲利能力。

But I think the OTA was more damaging than I had first allowed for. The good news going forward is the forward bookings into next summer with the OTAs are already very strong. Their pricing is well above our average pricing, but we would expect that because they're taking kind of their bookings summer holidays next year, whereas we're booking -- taking booki into the winter period. And we would have a much easier prior year comp next year. When we get to Q1 of next year, we will both have -- these 2 would be in Q1. We should have a strong forward bookings coming from the OTAs. But ensuring that all of those customers who are looking through those OTAs are now getting real Ryanair prices.

但我認為 OTA 的破壞性比我最初想像的還要大。未來的好消息是，明年夏天的 OTA 預訂量已經非常強勁。他們的定價遠高於我們的平均價格，但我們預計會發生這種情況，因為他們將在明年的暑假期間預訂，而我們的預訂將在冬季進行。明年我們的上年比較會容易得多。當我們到明年第一季時，我們都會——這兩個都將出現在第一季。我們應該有 OTA 的強勁預訂。但要確保所有透過 OTA 尋找的客戶現在都能獲得真正的瑞安航空價格。

The OTA is free to levy a separate fee, and that's fine. But we are getting the customer e-mail and the customer credit card details, so we can interact with each customer as well. So I think that has been a very successful outcome for us, but we've -- no doubt we've taken a short-term pain this year. Looking forward, as of today, we are about 2% stronger booked into summer, if you take the summer season of 2025, than we were this time last year. Now it's on a pretty tiny sliver of bookings, like -- but to be 2 percentage-points further ahead on a very small number is quite strong into next year. And we will have, I think, a weaker prior year comp by the time we get to summer 2025 as well. Eddie and maybe Jason, if you just want to add something to that?

OTA可以免費收取單獨的費用，這很好。但我們正在獲取客戶電子郵件和客戶信用卡詳細信息，因此我們也可以與每個客戶進行互動。所以我認為這對我們來說是一個非常成功的結果，但毫無疑問，我們今年經歷了短期的痛苦。展望未來，如果以 2025 年夏季為例，截至今天，我們夏季的預訂量比去年同期增加了約 2%。現在，它的預訂量很小，但到明年，以極小的預訂量再領先 2 個百分點是相當強勁的。我認為，到 2025 年夏季時，我們的去年業績也會較弱。艾迪，也許還有傑森，如果你只是想添加一些東西？

Yes. It's Eddie. I mean the difficulty, James, sometimes is that when you're looking at comparisons, and when you look in prior years with OTAs, like it was impossible to who was doing what coming through the pipes because they were using other intermediaries to scrape. But what we tend now is, as Mike has pointed out there, about summer booking. There are -- OTAs don't -- are not a sort a homogenous set here, they do -- they operate in different ways. But we can definitely see the holidays ones that do package holidays are -- they book further ahead and at higher fares.

是的。是艾迪。我的意思是，詹姆斯，有時困難在於，當你進行比較時，當你查看前幾年的OTA 時，你會發現，不可能知道誰在通過管道做什麼，因為他們正在使用其他中介機構來進行抓取。但正如麥克所指出的那樣，我們現在關注的是夏季預訂。 OTA 不存在，這裡不是同質的集合，它們確實存在，它們以不同的方式運作。但我們可以肯定地看到，那些提供套餐假期的假期是——他們提前預訂並以更高的價格預訂。

And if you look at that as compared to last year, well, then if we weren't getting those bookings, then we were obviously chasing those to get a load factor. But the good thing as well is that the OTAs it's not just a question switching on the pipe here either, because some are better than others in maximizing what's coming through there. Like the ones more tech-focused have got up to speed much more quickly and others haven't. But there is no doubt that we can see the forward booking in put, the summer ones. They're ones that bookings that we didn't get in January, particularly, of last year. Because when this happened broadly in late November last year, you're pretty much sold into December. So it was really those summer bookings in January and then the effect of obviously the other factors of the sort of macro wages like interest rates and consumer sentiment and all that, that into it.

如果你與去年相比，那麼如果我們沒有獲得這些預訂，那麼我們顯然是在追逐這些預訂以獲得負載率。但好的一點是，OTA 也不僅僅是打開管道的問題，因為有些 OTA 在最大化通過那裡的內容方面比其他更好。就像那些更注重技術的人可以更快地跟上步伐，而其他人則不然。但毫無疑問，我們可以看到夏季預訂的提前預訂。這些是我們一月份（尤其是去年）沒有收到的預訂。因為當這種情況在去年 11 月底廣泛發生時，你幾乎在 12 月就已經賣出了。因此，這實際上是一月份的夏季預訂，然後是其他宏觀工資因素（例如利率和消費者信心等）的影響。

But I echo as well what Michael said there, the hard decision was to do is the right thing to do. And we can see that reflected in customer issues, like some of the hardest customer issues we had. When you get to the sort of volumes that we have now, people showing up being charged check-in fees because the OTAs have just sold on this and couldn't care less at that stage about like what the problems were business upon consumers at airports. So broadly like echo, it was absolutely the right thing to do, and some are better than others. We still a little bit to go with some of the OTAs in getting and spilling back up to where they believe they were comparable with last year. Jason?

但我也同意麥可在那裡所說的話，艱難的決定是做正確的事。我們可以看到這反映在客戶問題上，例如我們遇到的一些最棘手的客戶問題。當你達到我們現在擁有的數量時，人們會被收取辦理登機手續的費用，因為 OTA 剛剛出售了該產品，並且在那個階段並不在乎機場消費者遇到的問題。就像 echo 一樣，這絕對是正確的做法，而且有些比其他更好。我們仍然需要與一些 OTA 保持一致，以達到他們認為與去年相當的水平。傑森？

(inaudible)

（聽不清楚）

If I take Q1 to Q2, so Q1, the fares are down 15%. Now I think as much as 1/3 of that was probably the first half of Easter moving into prior year Q4. So if you step back Easter, I'm doing back of the envelope here, I think Q1 like-for-like is down somewhere between 7% and 10%. Q2, down 7%. Q3 was down -- is down by a figure of between 0% and 5%. How much of that do you think it's OTAs and how much is just the consumer spending under pressure, and I know it's a (inaudible), so...

如果我從 Q1 到 Q2，那麼 Q1 的票價會下降 15%。現在我認為其中多達 1/3 可能是復活節前半段進入去年第四季的情況。因此，如果你退一步回顧復活節，我會在這裡做一些深入的研究，我認為第一季的同比下降了 7% 到 10% 之間。第二季度，下降 7%。第三季有所下降——下降幅度在 0% 到 5% 之間。您認為其中有多少是 OTA 造成的，有多少只是消費者在壓力下的支出，我知道這是（聽不清楚），所以...

Yes, for me. Yes, I don't disagree. I think it's about half and half, the interest rate inflation environment. I think last Christmas into January, the consumer was certainly weaker. I could see it in the volumes. Particularly, as we said previously, across leisure and Canaries. But lots of the markets continue to book very well, like Central and Eastern Europe was strong throughout the whole period.

是的，對我來說。是的，我不反對。我認為利率通膨環境大約是一半一半。我認為去年聖誕節到一月份，消費者肯定比較疲軟。我可以在書中看到它。特別是，正如我們之前所說，在休閒和加那利群島。但許多市場的預訂情況持續良好，例如中歐和東歐在整個時期都表現強勁。

load factors through to summer very strong. I'm very happy to have the summer it finishing out, particularly with a very strong October midterm. Hopefully, that continues into December, but a little bit too early to tell in terms of Christmas. And I agree, like summer '25, very early days so far, but I'm very happy with how it's selling selling so far. All the markets selling well. And I think that is an indication in terms of the capacity environment as well. I think we are booking earlier this year than they have been on the Leisure and Canary.

到夏季的負載因素都非常強勁。我很高興夏天能結束，特別是十月期中考表現非常強大。希望這種情況能持續到十二月，但就聖誕節而言現在判斷還為時過早。我同意，就像 25 年夏天一樣，到目前為止還很早，但我對迄今為止的銷售情況感到非常滿意。所有市場都賣得很好。我認為這也是容量環境的跡象。我想我們今年的預訂比休閒和加那利航班上的預訂要早。

Thanks, Jason. Thanks, James. Next question, please.

謝謝，傑森。謝謝，詹姆斯。請下一個問題。

Harry Gowers from JPMorgan.

摩根大通的哈利高爾斯。

I've got 2 questions, if I can, probably both for Neil. Just on the ex-fuel costs, I mean, I think we should start to annualize some of the pay increases put through at the back end of last year. So maybe a little bit more color on what you're seeing for ex-fuel cost per pax, specifically over winter or on a full year basis. And then related to the first one, on the delay compensation received in the first half, maybe you're able to quantify the total, and will that continue to be a bit of a tailwind maybe for ex-fuel coin the next 12 months or so?

如果可以的話，我有兩個問題想問尼爾。我的意思是，僅就燃油成本而言，我認為我們應該開始將去年年底實現的部分加薪按年計算。因此，也許您所看到的每人燃油成本（特別是在冬季或全年的基礎上）會有更多的色彩。然後與第一個相關，關於上半年收到的延遲補償，也許你能夠量化總數，這對於未來 12 個月的前燃料幣或所以？

Okay. Harry, I'll start with the second one first. We're not going to quantify the delayed compensation. It's modest as we call out in press release. In the first half of the year, coming between ourselves and Boeing and then falls well short of putting us back in the money for the 5 million plus passengers that we've lost. Will there be more in H2? The likelihood is yes. It will depend very much on how many aircraft we get -- and then we get them. But again, it will be relatively modest in the overall scale of things.

好的。哈利，我先從第二個開始。我們不會量化延遲補償。正如我們在新聞稿中所說的那樣，這是適度的。今年上半年，我們和波音之間發生了爭執，但我們並沒有為我們失去的 500 多萬名乘客挽回損失。 H2還會有更多嗎？可能性是肯定的。這在很大程度上取決於我們獲得多少架飛機——然後我們獲得它們。但同樣，從整體規模來看，它的規模相對較小。

On unit costs themselves, total cost has done a very good job. Absent the Boeing compensation, we've seen some improvements on other ex-fuel cost lines in the second quarter of the year. We hope that will continue into the third and fourth, which is why we're guiding total unit costs broadly flat rather than marginally down, which we had previously. We would hope that next year with the slower growth, we won't be over-crewed, as was the case this year. We've enough crews for about 20 more aircraft. That's hopefully the case into next year.

就單位成本本身而言，總成本做得非常好。在沒有波音補償的情況下，我們看到今年第二季其他燃油成本項目有所改善。我們希望這種情況能夠持續到第三和第四年，這就是為什麼我們指導總單位成本基本上持平，而不是像之前那樣小幅下降。我們希望明年隨著成長放緩，我們不會像今年那樣出現人員過多的情況。我們有足夠的機組人員來容納大約 20 架飛機。希望明年的情況也是如此。

And as you rightly said, as we get out into kind of the first quarter, calendar quarter of next year, we'll start to annualize some of that productivity pay that had come through. But it's too early to put a numbers on where our unit costs are going to be next year. We haven't done the budgets yet. But I think we've done a good performance this year and pleased that we're guiding broadly flat, and locking in with the 75% fuel hedging that we have modest year-on-year fuel savings.

正如你所說，當我們進入明年第一季度，也就是明年的日曆季度時，我們將開始將已經支付的部分生產力工資進行年化。但現在給出明年單位成本的數字還為時過早。我們還沒有做預算。但我認為我們今年表現良好，很高興我們的指導大致持平，並鎖定 75% 的燃油對沖，我們與去年同期相比節省了一定的燃油。

Thanks, Neil. Thanks, Harry.

謝謝，尼爾。謝謝，哈利。

The next question is from Stephen Furlong at Davy.

下一個問題來自戴維的史蒂芬·弗隆。

Michael, I guess, 2 for me. Just where you -- just looking at the allocation of growth, Michaek, I think you called out some scrapping of aviation act of Sweden, Hungary various regional airports. So you just might talk about that where you see that going. And yes, well, maybe I'll start and then I'll come back to another.

邁克爾，我想，對我來說是 2。就你而言——只是看看增長的分配，米查克，我認為你呼籲廢除瑞典、匈牙利各個支線機場的一些航空法案。所以你可能只是談論你認為會發生的事情。是的，好吧，也許我會開始，然後我會回到另一個。

And again, I'll ask Eddie to join. Look, I mean, we are too light on aircraft. So we're doing a lot more churn. We're taking aircraft away from airports and our countries who are using taxes. The 2 big call, I'd say, would be the French budget. Now we're small France, even though we're the #3 airline. We're taking capacity away from France. We're reducing capacity in Germany, where the government hasn't got a clue. They're not alone raising aviation tax, but also ATC fees and security charges. And even Lufthansa Group are now reducing flights significantly, (inaudible)about 1,000 Eurowing flights in Hamburg.

我會再次邀請艾迪加入。聽著，我的意思是，我們的飛機太輕了。所以我們正在做更多的流失。我們正在將飛機從機場和我們使用稅收的國家帶走。我想說，第二大呼籲是法國預算。現在我們是小法國，儘管我們是第三大航空公司。我們正在從法國奪走產能。我們正在削減德國的產能，但德國政府對此一無所知。他們不僅提高了航空稅，還提高了空中交通管制費和安全費。甚至漢莎航空集團現在也大幅減少航班，（聽不清楚）漢堡的歐洲之翼航班數量約為 1,000 架。

I'm medium term optimistic on Germany. I think they'll eventually realize that either this government hasn't got a clue or this government is going to change its policy and start lowering air travel cost in Germany. And then we had the U.K. budget last week, where they increased APD, a new labor government committed to growth, got elected on a solid mix (inaudible)growth and the first thing to do is tax, increased taxes on air travel on and off (inaudible)and the periphery of Europe.

我對德國的中期前景持樂觀態度。我認為他們最終會意識到，要么本屆政府沒有任何線索，要么本屆政府將改變其政策並開始降低德國的航空旅行成本。然後我們上周公布了英國預算，他們增加了APD，一個致力於增長的新工黨政府，在穩健的（聽不清）增長的基礎上當選，首先要做的是稅收，增加對往返航空旅行的稅收（聽不清楚）和歐洲外圍地區。

So we again -- and I think this plays into the capacity constraint story for us next year, (inaudible)to be to deliver of between 205 million and 210 million passengers and more churn. And I think you'll see us moving some capacity out of Germany, France and the U.K. next year. We're not able to grow in Dublin because of the traffic cap. And we will be redeploying that airport capacity into (inaudible)scrapping taxes, Hungary, Sweden, who have scrapped their aviation tax entirely, which is, I think, a sign of what's to come. The home of flight gaming is now stopping aviation tax. They worked out that that's not the way to grow their economy.

所以我們再次 - 我認為這會影響我們明年的運力限制，（聽不清楚）要運送 2.05 億至 2.1 億名乘客以及更多的旅客流失。我想明年我們會看到我們將部分產能遷出德國、法國和英國。由於流量限制，我們無法在都柏林發展。我們將把機場容量重新部署到（聽不清楚）取消稅收中，匈牙利、瑞典已經完全取消了航空稅，我認為，這是即將發生的事情的一個跡象。飛行遊戲之家現在正在取消航空稅。他們發現這不是發展經濟的方式。

And Italy, we're having significant success for a number of the bigger in Italy, (inaudible), Venice, Julia and we, hopefully, (inaudible), where Prescare airport is. They've scrapped the 6 50 municipal tax. And we think there's a reasonable prospect. The more Italian regions will scrap this at Italian finance pension tax. And wo we're redeploying earning aircraft, we will get probably pretty 20, 25 aircraft growth for next year, but our growth -- if we go from 200 million, 210 million, it would slow down to about 5%. So there would be more churn.

在義大利，我們在義大利（聽不清楚）、威尼斯、朱莉婭以及我們（聽不清楚）普雷斯卡機場所在的一些較大的機場取得了重大成功。他們取消了 6 50 市政稅。我們認為有一個合理的前景。更多義大利地區將取消義大利財政退休金稅。如果我們重新部署獲利飛機，明年我們可能會增加 20 到 25 架飛機，但我們的成長 - 如果我們從 2 億架到 2.1 億架，它會放緩至 5% 左右。所以會有更多的流失。

And again, a lot of that is being -- we're having some very interesting discussions with our -- some of our airports. So we're saying, look, you're at the bottom of the list of our kind of -- either your one of our higher-cost airports or are your -- and airports are getting very -- I think realizing that there are about aircraft and capacity, and that's making them -- with nobody else in town and nobody else coming over the hill, because of capacity constraints in Europe, and also getting a lot more aggressive.

再說一次，其中很多都是——我們正在與我們的一些機場進行一些非常有趣的討論。所以我們說，看，你在我們這種機場列表的底部 - 要么是我們成本較高的機場之一，要么是你的 - 而且機場變得非常 - 我認為意識到有關於飛機和運力，這使得它們——由於歐洲的運力限制，城裡沒有其他人，山上也沒有其他人，也變得更加激進。

So I think you'll see us reallocate a lot of our -- a significant proportion of our aircraft capacity next year to those states and those airports who are lowering taxes and lowering fees to incentivize growth. And I think that's why the traffic happened in Dublin is so damaging. We've just opened a second runway. It takes to Dublin's capacity to 60 million passengers. But we have a potent of a transport minister, a green transport minister who thankfully is not running for election because he probably wouldn't get reelected anyway. We would hope the election is going to be called next week, that the new government -- the first thing the new government would do would be scrap the tax.

因此，我認為你會看到我們明年將很大一部分飛機運力重新分配給那些正在降低稅收和費用以刺激成長的州和機場。我認為這就是都柏林交通事故造成如此嚴重破壞的原因。我們剛剛開通了第二條跑道。都柏林的客運量將達到 6,000 萬人次。但我們有一位強而有力的交通部長，一位綠色交通部長，值得慶幸的是，他沒有競選，因為無論如何他可能不會再當​​選。我們希望選舉下週舉行，新政府要做的第一件事就是廢除稅收。

We had a very, I think, good hearing in High Court on Friday. The court is going to give a ruling today at 2:00, and we are pretty confident that it rule -- that there will be a stay on the IAA's ability to limit plots next year while pending and appeal to the Europe. And all our (inaudible)is pretty black and white. You said that Dublin airport traffic gap is contrary to EU law, and I think it will be scrapped by the EU courts. I don't know whether you want to add to the, Eddie. And maybe, Juliusz, come in on the Dublin cap.

我認為週五我們在高等法院舉行了一次非常好的聽證會。法院將於今天 2:00 做出裁決，我們對此裁決非常有信心 - IAA 明年限制地塊的能力將被暫停，同時等待並向歐洲上訴。我們所有的（聽不清楚）都是黑白分明的。你說都柏林機場的交通缺口違反了歐盟法律，我認為歐盟法院會廢除它。我不知道你是否想補充一下，艾迪。也許朱利葉斯會代表都柏林隊出賽。

Yes, Michael, I think you covered most of the geography there, except that I would say that, post-COVID, we would have probably expected airport in terms of traffic recoveries have moved earlier. But now that it has started in places like Italy, where you have taxes coming out. Or you look at just 1 example of Sweden whereby SAS are much smaller than they were at post-COVID -- or pre-COVID. Norwegian largely back in Norway, what does Sweden do for trapping and they figure it out, they or the taxes, we put in 30% more based aircraft.

是的，邁克爾，我認為您涵蓋了那裡的大部分地理情況，但我要說的是，在新冠疫情之後，我們可能會預計機場在交通恢復方面會提前移動。但現在它已經在像義大利這樣的地方開始了，那裡有稅收。或者你看一下瑞典的一個例子，其中 SAS 的規模比新冠疫情後或新冠疫情前小得多。挪威航空主要回到挪威，瑞典做了什麼誘捕措施，他們弄清楚了，他們或稅收，我們增加了 30% 的基地飛機。

And I think that's really going to start to play out across Europe, where when these airports now realize there's nobody else coming. So I think the sort of the cracks are beginning to come. And we see 1 other area where we put in a lot of capacity as well are states like Morocco, where we've got 14 or 15 based aircraft down there, close to 10 million passengers. So I think there's a lot more to come, but I think you've covered all the geographies there, Mike.

我認為這真的會開始在整個歐洲蔓延，當這些機場現在意識到沒有其他人來的時候。所以我認為這種裂縫已經開始出現。我們也看到我們在摩洛哥等國家投入了大量運力，在那裡我們有 14 或 15 架飛機，載客量接近 1000 萬人次。所以我認為還有很多事情要做，但我認為你已經涵蓋了那裡的所有地區，麥克。

I think one of the points I'd make in, we're looking at the U.K. market next year and we expect to take our traffic down from about 55 million to about 50 million passengers. We're not going to close routes. What we're going to do is we have enormous capacity in the U.K., but we're going to trim out frequency. And I think you're going to see us across a lot of our bigger markets trim frequency next year, switch that capacity to those countries who are scrapping aviation taxes or lowering access costs, and airports who are incentivizing growth.

我想我要指出的一點是，我們正在關註明年的英國市場，我們預計將把我們的客運量從大約 5500 萬人次減少到大約 5000 萬人次。我們不會關閉路線。我們要做的是，我們在英國擁有巨大的容量，但我們將削減頻率。我認為明年我們將在許多更大的市場上看到我們削減航班頻率，將運力轉移到那些取消航空稅或降低准入成本的國家以及正在刺激增長的機場。

And I think, again, I will be -- I'm optimistic on pricing next year, apart from the fact that we'll have a pretty weak prior year comp is that we will be constraining frequencies. We will not be closing routes. We will not create vacuums that I don't think we've any competitors in Europe anyway, but we're certainly not going to be inviting anybody else into markets where we are currently operating. But trimming capacity on a lot of markets out of Ireland because of the traffic happened in the U.K. because of the insane rise in APTs, I think will be very good for our pricing next year.

我再次認為，我對明年的定價持樂觀態度，除了我們將有一個相當疲弱的前一年的比較這一事實之外，我們將限制頻率。我們不會關閉航線。我們不會製造我認為我們在歐洲沒有任何競爭對手的吸塵器，但我們當然不會邀請其他任何人進入我們目前經營的市場。但由於英國 APT 的瘋狂上漲，導致愛爾蘭以外的許多市場的運力被削減，我認為這對我們明年的定價非常有利。

And again, if you come back to Neil Sorahan's point, if you look at the cost discipline in this business, the cost discipline is unmatched by any other European airline. If we get any bump in pricing next year, you're going to see an awful lot of that flow straight to the bottom. Juliusz, do you want to give us anything on the Dublin cap?

再說一次，如果你回到尼爾索拉漢的觀點，如果你看看這個行業的成本紀律，你會發現成本紀律是其他歐洲航空公司無法比擬的。如果我們明年的定價出現任何上漲，你會看到大量的資金直接流向底部。 Juliusz，你想給我們一些關於都柏林帽子的資訊嗎？

Thanks, Michael. Maybe just to say that it is accepted by all parties, that there is a serious question of EU law to be answered in relation to the cap. And this is reflected by the fact that the court case on Friday was argued, not only by Ryanair, but also by Aer Lingus and, importantly, an association of American airlines who are concerned about the risk of losing some of their slots in Dublin. So it's hard to be definitive and hard to predict the outcome of court process, but we are fairly optimistic that the court will see sense in our arguments and grant the stay that we requested, which would result in growth being possible in Dublin next summer.

謝謝，麥可。也許只是說，各方都接受了這一點，即與上限有關的歐盟法律存在一個嚴重的問題需要回答。這反映在周五的法庭案件中，不僅有瑞安航空，還有愛爾蘭航空，更重要的是，還有一個美國航空公司協會，他們擔心失去都柏林部分航班時刻的風險。因此，很難確定，也很難預測法庭程序的結果，但我們相當樂觀地認為，法庭會理解我們的論點並批准我們請求的暫緩執行，這將導致明年夏天都柏林的成長成為可能。

Stephen, what's your second?

史蒂芬，你的第二個是什麼？

No, I'll leave it at that, yes.

不，我就這樣吧，是的。

Jaime Rowbotham from Deutsche Bank.

德意志銀行的海梅‧羅博瑟姆 (Jaime Rowbotham)。

Jamie, go ahead. Okay. let's move on. We'll come back to...

傑米，繼續吧。好的。讓我們繼續吧。我們會回來...

Next question comes from Muneeba Kayani from Bank of America.

下一個問題來自美國銀行的 Muneeba Kayani。

It's Muneeba from Bank of America. So I just wanted to follow up on the earlier question around OTAs, and you said that over 90% have been converted. What exactly does that mean? Like are they all -- kind of technology, is it fully kind of integrated at this point? And then secondly, are you -- where are discussions with the 2 remaining ones, do you think you would be able to get them on board as well? And then a question for Neil around cash return and buybacks. And in the video, you mentioned that there could be more. Like how have you thought about the amount for share buybacks, the EUR700 million and the EUR800 million that you've announced this year? And kind of any framework for thinking of the amount into next year?

我是美國銀行的 Muneeba。所以我只是想跟進之前關於 OTA 的問題，您說超過 90% 已經轉換。這究竟意味著什麼？就像它們都是某種技術一樣，目前是否完全整合？其次，你與剩下的兩個人的討論在哪裡，你認為你也能讓他們加入嗎？然後向尼爾提出了有關現金返還和回購的問題。在影片中，您提到可能還有更多。例如您如何看待今年宣布的股票回購金額，即 7 億歐元和 8 億歐元？是否有任何框架來考慮明年的金額？

Thanks, Muneeba. Maybe I'll take the first and Neil to give you the second. So on the OTAs, we have -- if you take the range of OTAs where making bookings on our system prior to last November, we've now signed up over 90% of them. There's essentially only 2 remaining OTAs who have not signed up to our deals, who are still overcharging, or inflating our airfares and overcharging consumers. So that is Booking.com, but they're very small by volume in Europe. These names are bigger by volumes in Europe, particularly in Spain. We have multiple court cases ongoing with both. We've won in -- we're booking in the States in Delaware. We've won numerous cases against the E-dreams in Europe outside of Spain.

謝謝，穆尼巴。也許我會拿第一個，尼爾給你第二個。因此，在 OTA 方面，如果您了解去年 11 月之前在我們系統上預訂的 OTA 範圍，我們現在已經簽約了其中 90% 以上。基本上只剩下 2 家 OTA 尚未簽署我們的交易，他們仍在多收費，或者抬高我們的機票價格並向消費者收取過高費用。這就是 Booking.com，但它們在歐洲的銷售量非常小。這些品牌在歐洲的銷售量更大，尤其是在西班牙。我們有多個與這兩個案件有關的法庭案件正在審理中。我們贏了——我們在美國特拉華州預訂。我們在西班牙以外的歐洲贏得了無數針對 E-dreams 的訴訟。

We have lost a couple of defamation actions in Spain, although generally, they've been ex-party deformation actions where we haven't been -- weren't able to make our case and we would be appealing those measures. I expect -- I think it's inevitable that both Booking and eDreams will eventually sign up to our approved OTA agreements, because I think it's been very difficult using the transparency of the web to be able to be overcharging your customers, while your competitor OTAs are selling them directly Ryanair's low fares with no kind of hidden charges or no inflation.

我們在西班牙輸掉了幾起誹謗訴訟，儘管總的來說，這些訴訟都是前黨派的變形訴訟，而我們沒有——無法提出我們的理由，我們會對這些措施提出上訴。我預計——我認為 Booking 和 eDreams 最終都會不可避免地簽署我們批准的 OTA 協議，因為我認為利用網路的透明度向您的客戶收取過高費用是非常困難的，而您的競爭對手 OTA直接向他們出售瑞安航空的低價機票，沒有任何隱藏費用，也沒有通貨膨脹。

But I think the critical thing is, so far, we protected over 90% of OTA customers, and we expect that figure will rise towards 100%. Over what period of time? I don't really know. What else, I think it's more fair on the OTAs. Unless Jason or Eddie, you want to comment on it? And then Neil, you answer the second question.

但我認為關鍵的是，到目前為止，我們已經保護了超過 90% 的 OTA 客戶，我們預計這個數字將上升到 100%。在什麼時間段內？我真的不知道。還有什麼，我覺得對OTA來說比較公平。除非傑森或艾迪，你想評論一下嗎？然後尼爾，你回答第二個問題。

Yes. Sorry, Michael, it's (inaudible), like what you have is that like without naming the specific one, those that are more tech-focused companies, are much better at maximizing the APIs that we've put into them already because they've got the tech resources on the other side, and some aren't. And they're still coming up to speed, particularly because as part of the OTA agreement, they can't put on extra charges on things like ancillaries. So they've got to be doubly sure that they are reflecting the transparency in pricing.

是的。抱歉，邁克爾，（聽不清楚），就像您所擁有的那樣，沒有具體命名，那些更注重技術的公司，在最大化我們已經放入其中的 API 方面要好得多，因為他們已經有些人在另一邊擁有技術資源，有些卻沒有。他們仍在加快步伐，特別是因為作為 OTA 協議的一部分，他們不能對輔助設備等收取額外費用。因此，他們必須加倍確保他們反映了定價的透明度。

So there's some way to go on some of them where they maximize it. But those that are selling out summer holidays for next year in terms of packages where it's a little bit more complex on their side, where they got to put hotels and all that as part of it, they're generally getting back up to where they would have been. So they're at different paces. But like I'm not going to give you color on how many -- like what ones are behind the curve, it's just about their tech resources on the other side.

因此，有一些方法可以最大限度地發揮其中的某些作用。但那些以套餐形式出售明年暑假的人，他們這邊的情況有點複雜，他們必須把酒店和所有這些作為其中的一部分，他們通常會回到原來的位置本來會的。所以他們的步伐不同。但就像我不會告訴你有多少人——例如哪些人落後於曲線，這只是關於他們另一邊的技術資源。

Okay. And just before I hand on the share buyback point, Muneeba, I would draw your attention to 2 things. One, the Boeing delivery delays this year meant we had with less CapEx, more spare cash. Our first instinct was to return that additional cash to those -- that's spare cash to shareholders. I would highlight, however, as we've done in the results, we have 2 large bond repayments coming up in September '25, EUR850 million; and May '26, EUR1.2 billion. We are determined to pay down that debt. And that will be the Board's first priority, while maintaining our dividend policy going forward. Neil, on share buyback?

好的。在我提出股票回購點之前，Muneeba，我想提請您注意兩件事。第一，波音今年的交付延遲意味著我們的資本支出更少，閒置現金更多。我們的第一個反應是將多餘的現金回饋給股東——也就是股東的閒置現金。然而，我要強調的是，正如我們在結果中所做的那樣，我們將於 2025 年 9 月償還兩筆大債券，金額為 8.5 億歐元； 26 年 5 月，12 億歐元。我們決心償還這筆債務。這將是董事會的首要任務，同時維持我們未來的股利政策。尼爾，關於股票回購？

You're (inaudible)where I was going to go. I mean the quantum this year was driven by the lower CapEx, but also we didn't have any big bond repayments. We've got an opportunity just given where the share price went in the first -- sorry, in the July, August period to lean into the EUR700 million buyback. We finished that earlier than anticipated. And EUR800 million with the slowing CapEx and the delays in Boeing seems about the right number. That gets us out to the next number, but we're very focused that we do of that EUR850 million bond in September '25, and there's a EUR1.2 billion bond beyond that.

你（聽不清楚）就是我要去的地方。我的意思是，今年的金額是由較低的資本支出推動的，但我們也沒有任何大額債券償還。我們有機會進行 7 億歐元的回購。我們比預期更早完成了這項工作。考慮到資本支出放緩和波音公司的延誤，8 億歐元似乎是正確的數字。這讓我們得出下一個數字，但我們非常關注 25 年 9 月發行的 8.5 億歐元債券，除此之外還有 12 億歐元債券。

We'll continue to pay back 25% of prior year PAT, and you're seeing that. We've already announced about a EUR240 million dividend in February. There will be another EUR240 million or thereabouts in September of next year. But ultimately, the profitability in the business, the CapEx opportunities, the debt repayments will dictate how much spare cash is available for the Board to return. But I think the net finished the EUR800 million buyback first and then we look at what comes after that, Muneeba.

我們將繼續償還去年 PAT 的 25%，您也看到了。我們已在 2 月宣布派發約 2.4 億歐元的股息。明年 9 月還將有約 2.4 億歐元左右的資金。但最終，業務的獲利能力、資本支出機會、債務償還將決定董事會可以退還多少閒置現金。但我認為網子先完成了 8 億歐元的回購，然後我們看看之後會發生什麼，Muneeba。

Thanks, Neil.

謝謝，尼爾。

The next question comes from Dudley Shanley from Goodbody.

下一個問題來自 Goodbody 的 Dudley Shanley。

Two questions, if I may. First of all, can you just update us on the latest you've heard on the certification of the MAX 7 and then the follow-on certification of the MAX 10? And then the second question is 1 of your favorite topics, Michael, which is ATC disruption. It was particularly during the summer, especially for the first wave. Can anything be done about this and can it be done without route charges going up over time?

如果可以的話，有兩個問題。首先，您能否向我們介紹一下有關 MAX 7 認證以及後續 MAX 10 認證的最新消息？第二個問題是你最喜歡的話題之一，邁克爾，那就是空中交通管制中斷。尤其是在夏季，尤其是第一波。對此可以採取什麼措施嗎？

Great. Okay. And my just speak (inaudible)court on Friday afternoon, they remain confident that they're still working away on the certification. They still expect certification of MAX 7 in the first half of FY '25, and then that the MAX 10 certification will follow reasonably quickly thereafter in about -- sometime in the mid-second half of 2025. And I think we could take them at their word. We've had some reasonably positive feedback with EASA, who have said that they're reasonably impressed by the MAX 10 and don't see any reason why that certification won't take place. It's a good aircraft. The -- but it's driven by getting the MAX 7 Tire certified first. And I think what's important though is that work continues even while the strike is ongoing.

偉大的。好的。週五下午我在法庭上（聽不清楚）發言時，他們仍然相信他們仍在努力進行認證。他們仍然預計 MAX 7 在 25 財年上半年獲得認證，然後 MAX 10 認證將在大約 2025 年下半年中期的某個時間相當快地進行。我們從 EASA 那裡得到了一些相當積極的回饋，他們表示 MAX 10 給他們留下了相當深刻的印象，並且認為沒有任何理由不進行該認證。這是一架好飛機。但這是透過先獲得 MAX 7 輪胎認證來推動的。我認為重要的是，即使罷工正在進行，工作仍在繼續。

The ATC disruptions have been in shambles this year. I think what's really depressing about ATC is so much of this is fixable. Much of the -- EUROCONTROL on figures showed that flights in Europe this summer were at 98% of their pre-COVID volumes. So it's not that the skies are black or they're dealing with huge growth, they're actually dealing with fewer flights than they had in 2019. But they're short-staffed. And in many cases, they're short-staffed because people simply won't come to work on Saturdays and Sundays. Or as in the case of the French, they've done the management deal with the French unions where they can report to work 3 hours late.

今年，空中交通管制的中斷情況一團糟。我認為 ATC 真正令人沮喪的是很多問題都是可以解決的。 EUROCONTROL 的大部分數據顯示，今年夏天歐洲的航班量僅為新冠疫情爆發前的 98%。因此，並不是說天空一片漆黑，也不是說他們正在應對巨大的增長，他們實際上處理的航班數量比 2019 年要少。在許多情況下，他們人手短缺，因為人們根本不會在星期六和星期日來上班。或者就像法國人的情況一樣，他們已經與法國工會達成了管理協議，他們可以遲到 3 小時上班。

Now if you're unaccounted or reporting to work 3 hours late, it doesn't make that much difference. But if you're a pilot or you're an air traffic controller and your cue at 4:00 a.m. in the morning and you reported 7:00 a.m. in the morning because you can, then the whole first way gets delayed. So there are 2 things that can be done, and we're pushing hard with the EU Commission. One, protect the overflights during national ATC strikes. The Spanish, the Italians and the Greeks already do this, they use minimum service to protect 100% of over flights. But the France use minimum service legislation to protect about 80% of their domestic flights and only 20% of overflight. So because of the geographical position of France, everybody else gets screwed.

現在，如果你下落不明或遲到 3 小時上班，也沒有太大差別。但是，如果您是飛行員或空中交通管制員，並且您在凌晨 4:00 收到提示，並且您可以在早上 7:00 報告，那麼整個第一條路線都會被延誤。因此，有兩件事可以做，我們正在與歐盟委員會一起努力推動。第一，在國家空中交通管制罷工期間保護飛越。西班牙人、義大利人和希臘人已經這麼做了，他們使用最低限度的服務來保護100%的過境航班。但法國使用最低服務立法來保護其約 80% 的國內航班和僅 20% 的飛越航班。因此，由於法國的地理位置，其他人都被搞砸了。

So 2 simple (inaudible), one, protect overflights during national ATC strikes; and two, we require a commitment that each of the ANSPs, particularly the French, the Germans and, to a lesser extent, the Spanish, will be fully staffed for the first wave of flights every morning. There is no point in having a labor deal that allows some air traffic controller -- and we're talking 1 or 2 air traffic controller of sort on the first wave of flights in France could take about 20% of its capacity out. And we're talking tiny numbers of people here, that are being grossly mismanaged.

所以兩個簡單（聽不清楚），一，在國家空中交通管制罷工期間保護飛越；第二，我們要求每個空中航行服務提供者（特別是法國、德國以及較小程度的西班牙）做出承諾，為每天早上的第一批航班配備充足的人員。達成一項允許一些空中交通管制員的勞工協議是沒有意義的——我們正在談論法國第一波航班中的 1 或 2 名空中交通管制員可能會佔用其約 20% 的運力。我們這裡談論的是極少數人，他們的管理嚴重不善。

And I think if the new EU commission, I think we're optimistic, (inaudible)has put competitiveness at the center of the new 5-year mandate for the EU Commission. And if you really want to do something about the competitiveness, start with fixing Europe's chronic ATC services. And those 2 simple measures would eliminate about 90% of ATC delays. Next question, please.

我認為，如果新的歐盟委員會（我認為我們很樂觀）（聽不清楚）將競爭力置於歐盟委員會新的五年任務的中心。如果你真的想提高競爭力，就從修復歐洲長期存在的空中交通管制服務開始。這兩項簡單的措施將消除約 90% 的 ATC 延遲。請下一個問題。

The next question comes from Alex Irving from Bernstein.

下一個問題來自伯恩斯坦的亞歷克斯歐文。

A couple for me, please. First of all, both on the MAX 10, what you say about the (inaudible), but what are you accruing for? Is there a risk of unit staff cost inflation, if this gets pushed out? Second is on ancillary sales, the passenger muted growth has been pretty low in this quarter and the last quarter. What's driving this? And what initiatives are you currently working on to get these back to growth, please?

請給我一對。首先，在 MAX 10 上，您所說的是（聽不清楚），但是您累積的目的是什麼？如果取消該計劃，是否有單位員工成本上漲的風險？其次是輔助銷售，本季和上季的客運成長相當低。是什麼推動了這一點？請問您目前正在採取哪些措施來讓這些業務恢復成長？

Sorry, Alex, could you just repeat the second half? You broke up their, the tax something in the second quarter?

抱歉，亞歷克斯，你能重複後半部嗎？你分手了，第二季的稅什麼的？

Ancillary sales per passenger in low growth (inaudible)what are we working on together back to growth?

每位乘客的輔助銷售額成長緩慢（聽不清楚）我們正在共同努力恢復成長？

Okay. I'll give that to the second one to Neil. MAX 10, look, we're very optimistic about the MAX 10, it's why I wouldn't change 1 decimal point of our growth trajectory to 300 million by the mid-2030s. The big issue for us is we'll do our first 17 deliveries of MAX 10 in the first half of 2027. So we have been there for summer '27. As long as the MAX 10 are certified in the second half of 2025 and Boeing can increase their production -- their monthly production in line with their projections, then there should be no delays to those deliveries.

好的。我會把它交給第二個給尼爾。 MAX 10，看，我們對 MAX 10 非常樂觀，這就是為什麼我不會在 2030 年代中期將我們的成長軌蹟的小數點後一位更改為 3 億。對我們來說，最大的問題是我們將在 2027 年上半年交付前 17 批 MAX 10。只要 MAX 10 在 2025 年下半年獲得認證，而波音能夠增加產量——每月產量符合他們的預測，那麼這些交付就不會出現延誤。

So we see those aircraft will bring us, compared to the original 737 NGs, we're getting 20% more seats, burning 20% less fuel. I mean their transformation of our operating costs. We don't foresee any significant staff impact. It will make our -- if you go back to Slide 3 of our present -- or Slide 4 of our presentation, unit cost line, it will meaningfully widen our staff cost leadership, airport and handling cost leadership, everything, with the sole expected route charges, the aircraft are heavier, and our fuel leadership over every other airline in Europe.

因此，我們看到這些飛機將為我們帶來，與最初的 737 NG 相比，我們的座位數增加了 20%，燃燒的燃油減少了 20%。我的意思是他們對我們營運成本的轉變。我們預計不會對員工產生任何重大影響。它將使我們——如果你回到我們現在的幻燈片3——或我們簡報的幻燈片4，單位成本線，它將有意義地擴大我們的員工成本領導力、機場和搬運成本領導力，一切，與唯一的預期航線收費、飛機較重，而且我們的燃油領先於歐洲所有其他航空公司。

We will not obviously recruit additional pilots if there's some additional delay to those -- the deliveries in the first half of 2027. But I think you've seen us -- which did happen to us in the summer of 2024. So I don't see any significant bump in staff costs arising from it. We will have a fifth cabin crew on board. But all of our trade deals at the moment with polots, cabin crew are done. Whether you're -- they factored all variants of the 737s. We will only be taking 17 aircraft in. So if there was -- if somebody was silly enough to say, well, we won't fly the MAX 10 unless we get XYZ. We say fine, we typically move it to a different geography where we have no difficulty getting our crew into MAX 10.

如果 2027 年上半年的交付出現一些額外的延遲，我們顯然不會招募更多的飛行員。成本不會因此而大幅增加。機上將有第五名機組人員。但目前我們與飛機、機組人員的所有貿易協議都已完成。無論您是——他們都考慮了 737 的所有變體。我們只會接收 17 架飛機。我們說好吧，我們通常會將其轉移到不同的地理位置，在那裡我們可以毫無困難地讓我們的工作人員進入 MAX 10。

So I think there's nothing but upside for us in the MAX 10. The productivity of the aircraft are extraordinary. The productivity, by the way, of the -- even at the end of the Gamechangers has been extraordinary. We are getting 4% more seats, they are burning 16% less fuel. These are transformational in our business. We own the aircraft. And I look across at some of our competitors who are, frankly, do sale and leasebacks desperately or cooking the books, trying to take certain profit sale leasebacks through the P&L. We have none of that, and we have no long-term debt or leasing costs on our balance sheet.

所以我認為 MAX 10 對我們來說只有優勢。順便說一句，即使在遊戲規則改變者結束時，生產力也是非凡的。我們的座位數增加了 4%，燃料消耗量減少了 16%。這些對我們的業務來說是變革性的。我們擁有這架飛機。我看到我們的一些競爭對手，坦白說，他們拼命地進行銷售和回租，或者做假帳，試圖透過損益表獲取某些利潤。我們沒有這些，我們的資產負債表上也沒有長期債務或租賃成本。

So I can't wait for the MAX 10s. I think they are going to be transformational for our cost and for our profitability from summer of 2027 onwards. And I'd just say I'm not quite sure on the ancillary sales, ancillary sales per -- were up 10%. Traffic is up 9%. So we are getting, as we said, ancillaries continue to bump a little bit ahead of traffic growth. But then Neil, and maybe I don't know whether, Eddie, you want to add something on ancillaries there.

所以我已經等不及 MAX 10 了。我認為從 2027 年夏季開始，它們將對我們的成本和獲利能力產生變革。我只是想說，我不太確定輔助銷售額，輔助銷售額成長了 10%。流量增加了 9%。因此，正如我們所說，輔助設施繼續比流量成長略快一些。但是尼爾，也許我不知道，艾迪，你是否想在輔助設備上添加一些東西。

Yes, I'm happy to that, Michael. As you said, it was a pretty good performance in the first half of the year with a 10% increase in revenue. There's probably 3 big areas, Alex, as you're well aware. We're we make a lot of the money to reserve seating. That's going well. It's up year-on-year. And we'd hope that there's more we can do on optimizing that and the pricing around it. Onboard sales have improved year-on-year, and our new order (inaudible)initiative, which we were trialing in the early summer and then now rolled out across the network, is going very, very well, with the people keen to get their order in early on board.

是的，我很高興，麥可。如你所說，上半年業績相當不錯，收入成長了10%。亞歷克斯，如你所知，可能有 3 個大區域。我們賺了很多錢來預訂座位。進展順利。已經同比上漲了。我們希望我們可以在優化這一點以及圍繞它的定價方面做更多的事情。船上銷售同比有所改善，我們在初夏試用的新訂單（聽不清）計劃，現在在整個網絡上推出，進展非常非常順利，人們渴望獲得他們的產品。

So I'd be hopeful more to come from that. The one area that probably disappointed me a little bit this year was the priority boarding. I think some of that might have been down to the fact that we've been under pressure with air traffic control this year to try and not take on slots. Our priority is to close the door, get the (inaudible)on the aircraft and fly. So there's maybe been a little bit of gaming from some of the customers on not take the bags on board. But we're addressing that. We're working through some upside there.

所以我對此更有希望。今年可能讓我有點失望的一個方面是優先登機。我認為其中部分原因可能是因為我們今年一直面臨空中交通管制的壓力，試圖不接受航班時刻。我們的首要任務是關上艙門，將（聽不清楚）帶上飛機並飛行。因此，有些顧客可能會玩一些遊戲，不把行李帶上飛機。但我們正在解決這個問題。我們正在努力解決一些積極的問題。

So I feel there's a bit more to go on the priority. We've been quite clear. There's not going to be any major new initiatives coming, but there's lots to be done with the products that we have, just enhancing them. I'm pleased with what's happening on board. Having underperformed over the past couple of years, on board sales have turned the corner this year. And I think with order to see plenty more to go on that front. And then working with labs, we'll continue to try and work on improving the seating and working with my colleagues in the operations and the airports. We'll work on improving the priority boarding.

所以我覺得還有更多的事情要做。我們已經說得很清楚了。不會有任何重大的新舉措到來，但我們現有的產品還有很多工作要做，只是增強它們。我對船上發生的事情很滿意。過去幾年表現不佳，但今年船上銷售已經出現轉機。我認為為了在這方面看到更多的東西。然後與實驗室合作，我們將繼續嘗試改進座位，並與營運和機場的同事合作。我們將努力改善優先登機。

Eddie, anything to add on ancillaries?

艾迪，有什麼需要增加的輔助設備嗎？

No. I mean just -- it's really -- sorry, it's Eddie here. It really just stands in the interplay or whatever between those core products in terms of optimizing revenue between the trade-offs between behaviors on bags and priority boarding and bundles and issues like that. And it's just -- we'll never get to the end of this, Alex, with the lab team as the models get even more -- as the models will get more sophisticated in time.

不，我的意思是──真的──抱歉，我是艾迪。它實際上只是體現在這些核心產品之間的相互作用或其他什麼方面，在優化行李行為與優先登機和捆綁以及類似問題之間的權衡之間實現收入。只是 - 亞歷克斯，我們永遠不會和實驗室團隊一起完成這個任務，因為模型會變得越來越多 - 隨著時間的推移，模​​型將變得更加複雜。

I would just add one thought there. In a past year where the average fares -- or the average fare was down 10% per passenger, in that -- along that is due to consumer spending being under pressure. I think it's very impressive that ancillary revenues were up 10% on a 9% traffic growth. We are still able to mine the ancillary revenue line and to encourage or convert customers to the convenience of priority boarding, reserve seating, et cetera, even in a period of time when consumers spend is under pressure?

我只想在那裡添加一個想法。在過去的一年中，平均票價（或每位乘客的平均票價）下降了 10%，這是由於消費者支出面臨壓力。我認為在流量成長 9% 的情況下輔助收入成長 10% 是非常令人印象深刻的。即使在消費者支出面臨壓力的時期，我們仍然能夠挖掘輔助收入線並鼓勵或轉化客戶以享受優先登機、預約座位等便利嗎？

The next question comes from Jarrod Castle from UBS.

下一個問題來自瑞銀集團的賈羅德·卡斯爾。

JarrodYou hedged 75% of your fuel for 2026, and if I look back a year ago, you had only hedged 53% that stage for March '25. So why do you, I guess, increased the hedging? Is this suggesting anything in terms of the direction you see oil going to in the next year? And then also, you've kind of highlighted a lot about ownership, those control rules and your engagement with stakeholders, I'm not asking kind of where this heads, but can you kind of just give a bit of color in terms of potential outcomes that you'd like to achieve?

JarrodYou 對沖了 2026 年 75% 的燃油，如果我回顧一年前，你在 25 年 3 月的那個階段只對沖了 53%。那我猜你為什麼要增加對沖呢？這對您認為明年石油的走向有什麼暗示嗎？此外，您還強調了很多有關所有權、控制規則以及您與利益相關者的互動的內容，我不是在問這會走向何方，但您能否在潛力方面給出一些顏色您想要達到的結果？

Okay. I'll ask maybe, Juliusz, do you know ownership and control part on hedging, Jarrod. Look, we're always there were waiting to pound for it. We see weakness in oil prices below our current year where we can lock away a cost saving. I think we're always keen to do so. We're undoubtedly in a period where the world is more volatile. Fuel prices a week ago were under $70 a barrel, today, they've opened up over $75 a barrel. So what we're trying to do is to have some cost certainty going forward. We're hedged this year at $79 a barrel. We're now 75% hedged at $77 a barrel. I don't think we would go over medium term higher than that.

好的。我也許會問，Juliusz，你知道對沖的所有權和控制權部分嗎，Jarrod。瞧，我們總是在那兒等待著它。我們看到油價疲軟，低於今年，我們可以節省成本。我認為我們一直熱衷於這樣做。毫無疑問，我們正處於世界更加動盪的時期。一週前燃油價格低於每桶 70 美元，今天開盤已超過每桶 75 美元。因此，我們正在努力做的是確保未來的成本確定性。今年我們的對沖價格為每桶 79 美元。我們現在 75% 的對沖價格為每桶 77 美元。我認為中期來看我們不會高於這個水準。

I think there's a real risk that the -- and some of the market analysts are beginning to talk now of maybe $60 a barrel. We could find ourselves a bit exposed compared to our own hedge competitors. Oil price could go lower. But then we'll pick that up with our 20%, 25% unhedged fuel. But I like the feel of where we are at the moment. I think given the situation in the Middle East and in Ukraine, as we move into the winter, there is always a risk oil prices will go higher $75, $80 a barrel. We are not trying to beat the market. We know f****** nothing more than anybody else does about oil prices.

我認為，一些市場分析師現在開始談論每桶 60 美元的價格，這是一個真正的風險。與我們自己的對沖競爭對手相比，我們可能會發現自己面臨一些風險。油價可能會走低。但隨後我們將用 20%、25% 的未對沖燃料來彌補這一點。但我喜歡我們現在所處的感覺。我認為，考慮到中東和烏克蘭的局勢，隨著我們進入冬季，油價始終存在上漲 75 至 80 美元/桶的風險。我們並不是想打敗市場。我們對石油價格的了解並不比其他人多。

But we have a balance sheet that allows us to hedge out to way forward jet into plain jet, and we are always -- if you go back to the years we were hedged at $89 a barrel. This year, it's $79 a barrel. Next year, we're at $77 a barrel. If I saw an opportunity there, say, oil prices fell below $60 a barrel and we could meaningfully go in and hedge another 10%, 15% and bring it down towards low 70s per barrel, we might move. But I think it's unlikely. Like we're still burned or scared by the memory of COVID, where we did to COVID, 90 -- we used to have a rolling 90% hedge policy. I don't know we will ever get hedged up to 90% on this. It's just some ridiculous opportunity there.

但我們的資產負債表允許我們對沖從噴射機到普通噴射機的風險，如果你回到我們以每桶 89 美元對沖的那些年，我們總是如此。今年的價格為每桶 79 美元。明年，我們的價格為每桶 77 美元。如果我在那裡看到機會，比如說，油價跌破每桶60 美元，我們可以有意義地買入並對沖另外10%、15%，並將其降至每桶70 美元的低點，我們可能會採取行動。但我認為不太可能。就像我們仍然對新冠病毒的記憶感到焦灼或害怕一樣，就像我們對新冠病毒所做的那樣，90——我們曾經有一個滾動的 90% 對沖政策。我不知道我們是否會在這方面得到高達 90% 的對沖。這只是一些荒謬的機會。

But I like the fact that we have very stable unit costs. We're taking more Gamechangers. That gives us an operating cost kind of efficiency. And we've hedged 75% of our fuel this year at $1 a share less than the current year. So I like what we're able to do to secure our kind of stable cost next year, when I think given weak prior year comp, there's a reasonable risk to the upside in terms of pricing, particularly with even our own capacity constraint next year. And Juliusz, maybe you talk -- give people a quick briefing on the ONC consultations and where we think it might go.

但我喜歡這樣一個事實：我們的單位成本非常穩定。我們正在招募更多遊戲規則改變者。這給我們帶來了一種營運成本效率。今年我們以比今年低 1 美元的價格對沖了 75% 的燃料。因此，我喜歡我們能夠採取的措施來確保明年的穩定成本，因為我認為考慮到上一年的比較疲弱，定價方面存在合理的上行風險，尤其是明年我們自己的產能有限的情況下。 Juliusz，也許你能談談——向人們簡要介紹一下 ONC 的諮詢情況以及我們認為它可能會走向何方。

Yes. Thanks, Michael. So over the last few weeks, we spoke to shareholders who represent approximately 60% of the issued share capital. Those shareholders currently hold both through the ordinaries and through the ADRs. We received a lot of interest in feedback, and generally found this exercise very useful. We still have quite a few meetings in the diary for the coming weeks. And at the same time, we are in discussions with our regulators. So that's the national regulators in Ireland, Poland and Malta, and also the European Commission.

是的。謝謝，麥可。因此，在過去的幾周里，我們與約佔已發行股本 60% 的股東進行了交談。這些股東目前透過普通股和美國存託憑證持有股份。我們收到了很多感興趣的回饋，並且普遍認為這個練習非常有用。在接下來的幾周里，我們的日程中仍然有很多會議。同時，我們正在與監管機構進行討論。這就是愛爾蘭、波蘭和馬耳他的國家監管機構，以及歐盟委員會。

I wouldn't want to talk more about potential outcomes, and I don't think it would be appropriate to give more color given that we haven't yet spoken to everyone. We have an open invitation out on our website for shareholders to express those views, and we have received interesting feedback to that channel also. So I don't think it would be appropriate to those that we haven't spoken to yet to now go and give more color. But it has been useful, and we will give an update as soon as we can.

我不想多談論潛在的結果，而且鑑於我們還沒有與所有人交談，我認為給予更多的色彩是不合適的。我們在網站上公開邀請股東表達這些觀點，我們也收到了來自該管道的有趣回饋。因此，我認為對於那些我們尚未交談過的人來說，現在去提供更多的色彩是不合適的。但它很有用，我們會盡快提供更新。

And I think that's an important point to be made here, Jarrod. There was some concerns at the start of this, particularly with the ADR holders, the ordinaries were trading at a discount of 29% of the ADRs when we start this consultation on the 11th of September. Over the past 6 or 8 weeks, that ordinary discount has narrowed down its current as of last Friday, it was at 18%, the discount on the ordinaries compared to the ADR. That narrowing has been entirely due to the prices of the ordinaries rising by 11% over that 7-week period. In fact, the price of the ADR has increased by 1%.

賈羅德，我認為這是這裡要強調的一個重要觀點。一開始存在一些擔憂，特別是對於 ADR 持有者來說，當我們在 9 月 11 日開始諮詢時，普通股的交易價格為 ADR 的 29%。在過去的六、八周里，普通股折扣已經收窄，截至上週五，普通股折扣為 18%，是普通股相對 ADR 的折扣。這一幅度的縮小完全是由於普通股價格在這 7 週內上漲了 11%。事實上，ADR的價格已經上漲了1%。

So I think there was a fear among ADR holders that if we move here, this would -- what they see as a premium on the ADRs, what we interpret an unfair discount on the ordinaries, would be arbitraged away by the ABR price falling. In fact, as it has been borne out over the last 6 or 7 weeks, we think what will happen is that the discounts on the ordinaries will arbitrage away as the ordinaries will rise up to where the ADRs are. And I think that's a key point. But yes, as Juliusz has said, we have an open mind on this. The Board will consider it.

因此，我認為 ADR 持有者擔心，如果我們搬到這裡，他們所認為的 ADR 溢價，我們所理解的對普通股的不公平折扣，將會因 ABR 價格下跌而被套利。事實上，正如過去六、七週所證實的那樣，我們認為，隨著普通股上漲至美國存託憑證的水平，普通股的折扣將會套利。我認為這是一個關鍵點。但是，是的，正如朱利葉斯所說，我們對此持開放態度。董事會將予以考慮。

And the alternatives are we could remove the ownership and control restrictions. We could remove just the ownership restrictions, but keep the voting control restrictions. Or we could keep the ownership restrictions and remove the voting restrictions. So -- and it will not -- the Board will take account of the views of the inputs of shareholders. But we also have to then liaise with our regulators as well, the European and national regulators of the 5 airlines that we (inaudible). And we think that process -- the time frame where probably mid-next year before we come to some kind of conclusion I think is that a reasonable time frame?

另一個選擇是我們可以取消所有權和控制權限制。我們可以只取消所有權限制，但保留投票管制限制。或者我們可以保留所有權限制並取消投票限制。因此，董事會將考慮股東的意見，但事實並非如此。但我們也必須與我們的監管機構、我們（聽不清楚）的 5 家航空公司的歐洲和國家監管機構保持聯繫。我們認為這個過程——可能是明年年中我們得出某種結論之前的時間框架，我認為這是一個合理的時間框架嗎？

That's the best estimate at the moment, but no fixed time frame.

這是目前最好的估計，但沒有固定的時間框架。

The next question comes from Sathish Sivakumar from Citi.

下一個問題來自花旗銀行的 Sathish Sivakumar。

I got 2 questions here. First on the ancillaries. On the video, it is mentioned about 35% of the passengers are ordering directly via app. So in terms of the spend, how does it actually come past, say, (inaudible)or customers ordering via app, are they tend to spend more versus the traditional onboard spend? Any comparison on that, like what is the spend per pax would look like? And then the second one is around the fuel cost. As we go into next year when the SAF (inaudible)kicks in. Like can give you like any visibility around how much of the SAF procurement is done, at what price, so that, again, it gives us good visibility in terms of fuel cost into the next few years, yes.

我這裡有 2 個問題。首先是輔助設備。影片中提到，大約 35% 的乘客直接透過應用程式訂購。那麼就支出而言，它實際上是如何過去的，例如（聽不清楚）或透過應用程式訂購的客戶，與傳統的機上支出相比，他們是否傾向於花費更多？對此有何比較，例如每人的支出是多少？第二個是關於燃料成本。當我們進入明年 SAF（聽不清楚）啟動時。

On the orders, what we're seeing is a greater propensity. Now it's reasonably recent, but there's increased propensity of people making the orders, making decisions while waiting for the aircraft to board. I think it will boost the spend per pax on in-flight sales, but in-flight sales are a pretty small part of our total ancillary volumes. As Eddie has said, the large volume -- the large moving items are the priority boarding, reserved seating. And from we are, we think, and it's certainly borne out in the first couple of weeks of files, there is a notable double-digit increase in the percentage of people who will shop on board when they can do so using -- do it in advance using the order seat functionality, and we think that will continue.

在訂單上，我們看到的是更大的傾向。現在這已經是最近的事了，但人們在等待飛機登機時下訂單、做決定的傾向有所增加。我認為這將增加每個人在機上銷售的支出，但機上銷售只占我們輔助銷售總額的一小部分。正如艾迪所說，體積大——大型移動物品是優先登機、預留座位。從我們的情況來看，我們認為，並且在前幾週的文件中確實得到了證實，當他們可以使用“做吧”的方式時，願意在船上購物的人的百分比顯著增加了兩位數提前使用訂座功能，我們認為這種情況將會持續下去。

And I'm here with Thomas Fowler, our Director of Fuel and Sustainability. Tom, do you want to take the second part? And then I might double back and ask Eddie or Neil to comment further on the orders.

我和我們的燃料與永續發展總監 Thomas Fowler 一起來到這裡。湯姆，你想看第二部分嗎？然後我可能會再次要求艾迪或尼爾對訂單進一步發表評論。

Yes. So Sathish, just on the SAF side, we're currently negotiating the prices with our field suppliers ahead of the mandate next year. So it's very early to give an exact number on it. But we will -- we have some contracts rolling off with suppliers in January that we're negotiating at the moment. And like we're looking at somewhere SAF premiums of between 2 and 4x depending on the region, but we're nowhere near finalized on the year.

是的。 Sathish，就新加坡武裝部隊而言，我們目前正在與我們的現場供應商在明年的授權之前就價格進行談判。所以現在給出確切的數字還為時過早。但我們會——我們在一月份與供應商簽訂了一些合同，目前我們正在談判。就像我們正在考慮的 SAF 保費在 2 到 4 倍之間，具體取決於地區，但我們距離今年的最終確定還差得很遠。

Thanks, Thomas. And Eddie, Neil, you want to add on the order through seat ancillary spend?

謝謝，托馬斯。 Eddie、Neil，你們想透過座位輔助支出來增加訂單嗎？

I mean as you say, it's just -- just 2 points I'd make is that, one is from a lab perspective. There's a low-cost solution done by Bluetooth that has changed behaviors on board and just shows me the innovation that we're getting from the lab side. Without any servers on the back of the airplane or any certification or anything like that, so it's a pretty slick solution. And then the second thing I'd say, and I'm here with Sinead and you get this anecdote back to the crew, that people are more inclined to buy more when they're ordering on the app rather than asking directly. So -- and sometimes people don't ask for like 3 packs of (inaudible)or 4 cans to Heineken put a go difficulty during that when they're doing it through the app. So it's a behavioral change. And so people -- it looks like people actually -- we'll need more data on it, but it totally okay if they actually buy more per passenger.

我的意思是，正如你所說，我只想提出兩點，一是從實驗室的角度來看。有一個由藍牙完成的低成本解決方案，它改變了船上的行為，並且向我展示了我們從實驗室方面獲得的創新。飛機後部沒有任何伺服器或任何認證或類似的東西，所以這是一個非常巧妙的解決方案。然後我要說的第二件事，我和 Sinead 在這裡，你可以把這個軼事反饋給工作人員，人們在應用程式上訂購時更傾向於購買更多，而不是直接詢問。因此，有時人們不會向喜力索要 3 包（聽不清楚）或 4 罐喜力啤酒，這在他們透過應用程式進行操作時會遇到困難。所以這是一種行為改變。所以人們——看起來實際上是人們——我們需要更多的數據，但如果他們實際上為每位乘客購買更多的東西，那完全沒問題。

Yes, I'd agree with Eddie there. I think one of the other benefits of that is that people who may have traditionally waited for the second service or third service are now willing to put in that random order between service, and you get the incremental sales that you wouldn't have off before (inaudible)and stuff like that, that's performing well also.

是的，我同意艾迪的觀點。我認為這樣做的另一個好處是，傳統上等待第二項服務或第三項服務的人們現在願意在服務之間隨機排列，並且您可以獲得以前不會有的增量銷售（聽不清楚）諸如此類的東西，也表現得很好。

Yes. I'll give you an anecdote when I came back with a kid from Rome, the school midterm last week, my wife now has me ordering the stuff there, are paranoid that we won't have a panini or ham or cheese or something on board. So we now order through app. The only downside is I was sitting in row 4, people around me say, they're right down with my stuff first. So they said, you get special service here on the in-flight. I said, no, no, you should order through the (inaudible).

是的。我告訴你一個軼事，當我帶著一個孩子從羅馬回來時，上週學校期中考試，我妻子現在讓我在那裡訂購東西，她偏執地認為我們不會有帕尼尼、火腿、奶酪或其他東西。所以我們現在透過應用程式訂購。唯一的缺點是我坐在第四排，我周圍的人說，他們先拿走了我的東西。所以他們說，你在飛行中可以享受特殊服務。我說，不，不，你應該透過（聽不清楚）訂購。

I think it will significantly boost the conversion of people on board, but it won't be dramatic. Its impact on our overall ancillary revenues won't be dramatic because inside sales is a reasonably small percentage of that.

我認為這將顯著提高船上人員的轉換率，但不會太顯著。它對我們整體輔助收入的影響不會很大，因為內部銷售只佔其中相當小的比例。

The next question comes from Savanthi Syth from Raymond James.

下一個問題來自 Raymond James 的 Savanthi Syth。

Just 2 quick questions on -- if you look at like the next 12 to 18 months, just given your slower growth plan, are there any kind of major cost items that you think, from current trends, you'll see kind of greater pressure or maybe because some of the items that you're working on that might see less pressure than you're seeing today? And then just on the second question, could you talk about the steps that you need to take to migrate that last 25% of our customers to kind of the app? And are there any kind of related cost savings that you're expecting?

只是兩個簡單的問題 - 如果您考慮未來 12 到 18 個月，鑑於您的成長計劃較慢，您認為從當前趨勢來看，是否有任何主要成本項目，您會看到更大的壓力或也許是因為您正在從事的某些專案可能比您今天所面臨的壓力要小？關於第二個問題，您能否談談將最後 25% 的客戶遷移到該應用程式所需採取的步驟？您期望節省任何相關的成本嗎？

Okay. Eddie, you do the second half, I'll do the first half. Next for 12, 18 months on cost items, I mean, I think the 2 that we would focus on at the moment is the propensity of governments, like the French and the U.K., to look for increased taxes on air travel. I think we've seen very significant successes in getting the Irish, the Hungarians, the Swedes, the Italian regions to roll back taxes. But it's no doubt in my mind that the U.K. and French are going in the opposite direction. I would worry about route charges, although I think while we think there's some reasonably simple solutions here on route charges, like protecting overflights and making sure that they are sure to work first thing in the morning, I think it will be used by governments as a way of trying to drive up ASPs to drive up route fee or ATC fees by above inflation.

好的。艾迪，你做下半場，我做上半場。接下來 12、18 個月的成本項目，我認為我們目前要關注的兩個問題是法國和英國等政府尋求增加航空旅行稅的傾向。我認為我們在讓愛爾蘭、匈牙利、瑞典、義大利地區減稅方面取得了非常重大的成功。但毫無疑問，在我看來，英國和法國正在走向相反的方向。我會擔心航線費用，儘管我認為雖然我們認為在航線費用方面有一些相當簡單的解決方案，例如保護飛越並確保它們一定會在早上第一件事工作，但我認為政府將使用它作為試圖提高平均售價，以高於通貨膨脹的方式推高航線費用或空中交通管制費用的一種方式。

Other than that, we think airports and handling labor, aircraft and ownership, and our financing income line will continue to be strong. But I think I draw no further comfort from our cost performance in the first half of this year and over the full part of this year. No other airline in Europe is going out there this year which kind of cost flat, unless they're kind of scanning the P&L by recognizing a loss of sale, leaseback profits through the P&L. I think the real upside for us in the next 12 to 18 months with our capacity constrained and revenue or for frequency reductions in a lot of the bigger markets, is I think there's a real potential to the upside on pricing and payers.

除此之外，我們認為機場和勞動力、飛機和所有權以及我們的融資收入線將繼續強勁。但我認為今年上半年和今年全年我們的成本表現並沒有帶給我更多的安慰。歐洲沒有其他航空公司今年會採取這種成本持平的做法，除非他們透過損益表確認銷售損失和回租利潤來掃描損益表。我認為，在未來12 到18 個月內，由於我們的容量和收入受到限制，或者許多較大市場的頻率減少，對我們來說真正的好處是，我認為定價和付款人確實有上行的潛力。

And we didn't hope we're beginning to see that as we move into Q3, where there's no doubt in my mind, where strong bookings, pricing, the price declines are moderating. A lot depends on what happens in the summer 2025, but I would be reasonably optimistic that -- and again, against prior year weak comparables, we'll see fares up in summer 2025. Eddie, do you want to talk about could we migrate to the other 25% of customers is the app?

我們不希望在進入第三季時開始看到這一點，在我看來，毫無疑問，強勁的預訂、定價和價格下降正在放緩。很大程度上取決於2025 年夏季發生的情況，但我會相當樂觀地認為，與去年的疲弱可比相比，我們將在2025 年夏季看到票價上漲。可以遷移對於另外 25% 的客戶來說，該應用程式是什麼？

Yes. I mean the real benefit here, and we've seen this flowing through from the app and the data travel app where we're actually able to communicate what gates you're going to, any delays that might be coming, and we're just able to manage that much, much better. And the next phase of this will be on the -- you'll be able to get -- be able to manage operational problems more easily on the day. So for example, if you are engaging an aircraft than 8200 to 800 and there's a different seat configuration, you'll be able to virtually do that in real time without people having to talk about which seats they're in. And all those things that will drive operational efficiency and 25-minute turnarounds.

是的。我的意思是這裡真正的好處，我們已經從應用程式和數據旅行應用程式中看到了這一點，我們實際上能夠傳達您要去的登機口、可能出現的任何延誤，並且我們正在只是能夠管理得更好。下一階段將是 - 您將能夠 - 能夠更輕鬆地管理當天的營運問題。例如，如果您要使用的飛機不是 8200 到 800，並且有不同的座位配置，您將能夠即時進行虛擬操作，而無需人們談論他們所在的座位。

And there's also the ability, when you've got everybody on this app, to get around those old legacy systems that are at airports, whichhave been around since old times, seasoned systems, et cetera. You'll be able to manage cues at virtual boarding areas, et cetera. So that would speed up -- like anything that speeds up getting people on aircraft, turning around on side, particularly as more larger-gauge aircraft come online, we've got to be thinking about that as well.

當每個人都使用這個應用程式時，還有能力繞過機場的舊遺留系統，這些系統自古以來就存在，經驗豐富的系統等等。您將能夠管理虛擬登機區域等處的提示。所以這會加速——就像任何加速人們登上飛機、側轉的東西一樣，特別是隨著更多大型飛機投入使用，我們也必須考慮這一點。

And ultimately, like, okay, it saves paper. But there will be ultimately a cost benefit for us in getting around legacy systems, and it will be a much better experience. And it will be in place for next summer. And you just need -- you'll need a smartphone to do that. And 70% of people do it. And like we did this before with online check-in and people didn't have to go to a check at desk. It's another change, but I think people see the benefit of it.

最終，好吧，它可以節省紙張。但繞過遺留系統最終會為我們帶來成本效益，而這將是更好的體驗。它將在明年夏天到位。你只需要——你需要一部智慧型手機來做到這一點。 70%的人都會這麼做。就像我們之前透過線上辦理登機手續所做的那樣，人們不必去櫃檯辦理登機手續。這是另一個變化，但我認為人們看到了它的好處。

mean I got very optimistic. I think we -- no, we can't guarantee if we eliminate 100% of things like boarding card, reissue fees, airport check-in fees. But really, if we have everybody on the app and we're sending you messages, it should really collapse those fees, which are really are a source of irritation to a small number of passengers. And increasingly, the vast majority of our passengers who arrive at airports without having checked are customers of OTAs who weren't passed on the reminder emails and the text SMSs, went to some fake mobile phone number.

意味著我變得非常樂觀。我認為我們 - 不，我們不能保證我們是否 100% 消除登機卡、補發費、機場辦理登機手續等費用。但實際上，如果我們讓每個人都使用該應用程序，並且我們向您發送訊息，那麼這些費用確實應該減少，這確實會激怒少數乘客。越來越多地，絕大多數未經檢查就到達機場的乘客都是 OTA 的客戶，他們沒有收到提醒電子郵件和短信，而是使用了一些虛假的手機號碼。

When if we have 100% of people on the app, you will be getting the reminders. And I think everybody, then you'll be able to check in there on your phone the day before you travel, we should really be able to eliminate 100%. Now there'll always be some more on who will ignore the messages, think it's spam and won't check in. If they still arrive at the airport and haven't checked in, they will be hit with a fee. But we think we should be able to collapse that to almost 0 if we have everybody on the app. So there'll be a real boost, I think, in our interaction with customers, but also eliminating some of those annoying fees for customers, some of which are -- they only pay because the OTAs didn't pass them on kind of reminder emails or text SMS.

如果 100% 的人使用該應用程序，您將收到提醒。我認為每個人，然後你就可以在旅行前一天在手機上辦理登機手續，我們真的應該能夠 100% 消除。現在總會有更多人忽略這些訊息，認為這是垃圾郵件並且不會辦理登機手續。但我們認為，如果我們讓每個人都使用該應用程序，我們應該能夠將其減少到幾乎為 0。因此，我認為，我們與客戶的互動將會得到真正的提升，同時也會消除客戶的一些煩人的費用，其中一些費用是——他們只是因為 OTA 沒有向他們發出提醒而付費。 。

Your next question comes from Duane Pfennigwerth from Evercore ISI.

您的下一個問題來自 Evercore ISI 的 Duane Pfennigwerth。

Just on overstaffing, have you paused pilot hiring? And maybe you could put it into context the number of pilots you plan to hire in the next year versus what you've done in the last couple of years? And then really the point of the question is do you have an estimate for the size of the cost headwind from overstaffing, which presumably should work itself out over the next year or 2?

就人員過剩問題，你們暫停招募飛行員了嗎？也許您可以將您計劃在明年僱用的飛行員數量與您在過去幾年中所做的事情結合起來？那麼真正的問題是，您是否對人員過多造成的成本阻力有多大進行了估計，這可能會在未來一兩年內自行解決？

I think so. I mean I wouldn't want to put a particular number on it, Duane. But we had geared up, we were crewed for, we have trained up and we recruited and trained pilots in the first 2 calendar quarters. So we had hired more than 20 -- more pilots and cabin crew for 20 more aircraft than we actually operating through the summer of 2025. Now we could have taken a decision right there, make them return, get rid of them, we won't. We did think natural attrition would take them out.

我想是的。我的意思是我不想寫一個具體的數字，杜安。但我們已經做好了準備，我們已經配備了機組人員，我們已經進行了培訓，我們在前兩個日曆季度招募並培訓了飛行員。因此，我們僱用了20 多名飛行員和機組人員，運營了20 架飛機，比我們到2025 年夏季實際運營的飛機還要多。會的。我們確實認為自然消耗會淘汰他們。

The problem actually is we have very little attrition of pilots and cabin crew. We're at an all-time record low or low turnover of pilots and cabin crew. So we did carry the thing this summer. I think it was -- it is minimizing some (inaudible)compensation costs because we did have more standby prices done by cabin crew. But we wouldn't want to do it again. And I think that's why we're telegraphing now to the market early, we're taking down the growth next year. We're saying today 210 million. If Boeing come back with adverse news between now and Christmas once the trike -- the strike is -- I mean, (inaudible)committed to me. she'll come back to me once they are out of the strike and are people back to work, they'll give me a definitive delivery on our 9 Q4 delayed deliveries.

事實上，問題是我們的飛行員和機組人員的流失很少。我們的飛行員和機組人員的流動率創歷史新低或較低。所以今年夏天我們確實攜帶了這個東西。我認為，它正在最大限度地減少一些（聽不清楚）補償成本，因為我們確實有更多的備用價格是由機組人員制定的。但我們不想再這樣做了。我認為這就是為什麼我們現在提前向市場發出信號，我們將降低明年的成長。我們今天說的是 2.1 億。如果從現在到聖誕節期間波音公司回來帶來負面消息，一旦三輪車——罷工——我的意思是，（聽不清楚）對我做出了承諾。一旦他們擺脫罷工並且人們重返工作崗位，她就會回來找我，他們會給我關於我們第 9 季延遲交付的明確交付。

And then how many of the 29 aircraft? The last train in there will go to get advance of -- and I said, when I say summer '25, I said (inaudible)taking aircraft up to the end of June. I'm not counting any in July and August. This year, we were trying to take deliveries in July, trying to take deliveries in August. We had crews ready to go. And we had them on sale and we had to chomp and changing the schedule. Like it's very disruptive and costly.

那麼這29架飛機中有多少架呢？那裡的最後一班火車將提前——我說過，當我說 25 年夏天時，我說（聽不清楚）搭飛機到 6 月底。我沒有數過七月和八月的情況。今年，我們試圖在七月交貨，試圖在八月交貨。我們的工作人員已準備好出發。我們把它們打折，我們不得不仔細考慮並改變時間表。好像它非常具有破壞性且成本高昂。

But because of the lack of attrition at the moment, we have stepped down or canceled a lot of pilot recruitment and training. Pilot recruitment and cabin crew recruitment and training both in the calendar fourth quarter and in the calendar first quarter of next year. We are doing some modest pilot recruitment, but a very modest, almost all that will be taken by our cadet -- will be absorbed by our cadet programs, recruiting our cadets, second officer, promoting them through the first officers. There's very few we believing at the moment. There's not a lot of other 737 jobs across Europe. There's very little demand in the Middle East for 737 pilots.

但由於目前缺乏減員，我們已經下台或取消了許多飛行員的招募和訓練。飛行員招募以及機組人員招募和培訓將在第四季度和明年第一季進行。我們正在進行一些適度的飛行員招募，但非常適度，幾乎所有這些都將由我們的學員進行——將被我們的學員計劃吸收，招募我們的學員，二副，通過副駕駛晉升他們。目前我們相信的人很少。歐洲沒有太多其他 737 工作。中東地區對 737 飛行員的需求很少。

And so I think our turnover attrition of pilots is at an all-time low, which is good. I think people are generally happy with where they are. They're getting the benefit of significant pay increase and productivity pay increases over the last 2 years. And people seem to be generally happy with their life and nobody is leaving. Cabin crew, same situation. But again, because the recruitment and training of cabin crew is a much shorter cycle, but we have canceled a lot of recruitment and training programs that we had planned in Q3 -- in Q4 and Q1 of next year. We will do some cabin crew recruitment and training in the first half of next year.

因此，我認為我們的飛行員流失率處於歷史最低水平，這是一件好事。我認為人們普遍對自己所處的位置感到滿意。在過去的兩年裡，他們受益於大幅加薪和生產力加薪。人們似乎普遍對自己的生活感到滿意，沒有人離開。機組人員，同樣的情況。但同樣，因為空服員的招募和培訓週期要短得多，但我們取消了許多原定在第三季、明年第四季和第一季規劃的招募和培訓項目。明年上半年我們會進行一些空服員的招募和訓練。

We're probably only running at about 30% or 40% of what we would have normally done in previous years when we -- when mission was higher. So -- but I think we had a meaningful cost penalty this year. If you look at over the full year, we expect the kind of -- the staff cost going to rise traffic up about 9%. Staff costs will rise between high teens. Some of that -- I can't point out what that is because we were over-crewed through the summer with those pilots cabin crew the 20 aircraft which we didn't get. So -- and that hits us on the top. But we're down 5 million passengers, we don't have the -- we've lost that 5 million passengers. We've lost the ancillary of those 5 million passegers, but we carried the crews through the summer at the same time. And Neil, do you want to add anything on that?

我們的運行速度可能僅為前幾年任務更高時正常運行速度的 30% 或 40% 左右。所以，但我認為今年我們的成本損失相當大。如果你看一下全年情況，我們預計員工成本將使流量增加約 9%。員工成本將在十幾歲之間上漲。其中一些——我無法指出那是什麼，因為整個夏天我們的飛行員和機組人員都人滿為患，我們沒有得到 20 架飛機。所以——這對我們來說是最重要的。但我們減少了 500 萬名乘客，我們沒有——我們已經失去了 500 萬名乘客。我們失去了這 500 萬名乘客的輔助人員，但我們同時載著機組人員度過了夏天。尼爾，你想補充什麼嗎？

No, I think you've covered it very well. This is the 20 aircraft worth of over-crewing was the key lag for us this year. And hopefully, we can manage that down a bit into next year. If we're growing for less aircraft in the fleet, we will accrue appropriately.

不，我認為你已經講得很好了。相當於 20 架飛機的超員是我們今年的主要延遲。希望我們能把這個問題延到明年。如果我們機隊中的飛機數量減少，我們將相應地增加。

The next question comes from Ruby Colony from RBC.

下一個問題來自 RBC 的 Ruby Colony。

Firstly, on Slide 17 of your presentation, you've now got 10% passenger growth in full year '27 on 1% fleet growth. So how should we think about that? And then secondly, your -- I was wondering if in Q3, your book-to-date pricing was much different from your fair expectations given the slightly weird prior year comp you've got from OTA to moving Ryanair flights from their websites last November?

首先，在簡報的幻燈片 17 中，您現在在 27 年全年乘客增長了 10%，而機隊增長了 1%。那我們該如何思考呢？其次，我想知道在第三季度，考慮到去年 11 月您從 OTA 獲得的去年 11 月從其網站上轉移瑞安航空航班的補償，您的截至目前的定價是否與您的合理預期有很大不同？

Thanks, (inaudible). I mean I can't remember off the top of my head what's on Slide 17. What number of traffic -- number have been for FY '27 there? If you're looking at it, going on only...

謝謝，（聽不清楚）。我的意思是，我一時記不起投影片 17 上的內容。如果你看著它，只會繼續......

2 30 in there, which is in a point in time, it may or may not be that number, depending on the number of aircraft we guess.

2 30 在那裡，這是在一個時間點，它可能是也可能不是這個數字，取決於我們猜測的飛機數量。

I think that's reasonable. Like we would expect for FY '27, I mean, a lot of this now would be dependent on getting it. If Boeing deliver all of the 20, I mean, assurance is (inaudible)on Friday. But while the they missed some of the deliveries for summer 2025, we will have all of the remaining Gamechanger, the 210 Gamechangers in the system by -- for summer '26. I think it would be reasonable that we would get close to 230 million. So we are determined to continue to hit those traffic numbers, but they're dependent on Boeing delivery delays.

我認為這是合理的。就像我們對 27 財年的預期一樣，我的意思是，現在這很大程度上取決於能否實現。如果波音公司交付全部 20 架飛機，我的意思是，週五就可以保證（聽不清楚）。但是，雖然他們錯過了 2025 年夏季的部分交付，但我們將在 26 年夏季之前在系統中擁有所有剩餘的 Gamechanger，即 210 個 Gamechanger。我認為我們達到接近2.3億是合理的。因此，我們決心繼續達到這些交通量，但它們取決於波音的交貨延誤。

So if you take our FY '25, originally, we are 200 million, I think we'd be at about 199 million and change. FY '26 was originally 215 million, we would step that back now towards about 210 million. But I see no reason why we wouldn't then be able to get that back up towards 230 million for FY '27. Now maybe it might be 225 million, 227 million, 228 million, but we will -- as soon as we get those aircraft, we can deploy them profitably. And so I think that's reasonable. We then will have a year or 2 -- I'm not sure about FY '28 or FY '29 because we will, at that point in time, be facing -- redelivering some of the Lauda A320s and were heavily dependent on Boeing not having any delivery delays on the first of the MAX 10s.

因此，如果以我們 25 財年為例，最初我們的人口為 2 億，我認為我們的人口約為 1.99 億，然後就會改變。 26 財年最初為 2.15 億，我們現在將其退回到 2.1 億左右。但我認為我們沒有理由無法在 27 財年將這一數字恢復到 2.3 億。現在可能是 2.25 億架、2.27 億架、2.28 億架，但我們會——一旦我們獲得這些飛機，我們就可以透過部署它們來獲利。所以我認為這是合理的。然後，我們將有一兩年的時間——我不確定 28 財年或 29 財年，因為到那時我們將面臨——重新交付一些嚴重依賴波音的勞達 A320 飛機，而不是第一個MAX 10的交付有任何延遲。

On Q3 on the OTAs, look, it hard to separate it. I mean all we can give you is what we have at the moment, that is that the forward booking into Q3 are strong. We released the October traffic stats this morning. 94% load tractor. Traffic up 7%. And that was with even with the Boeing delivery delays. It's hard to, again, say how much of that is used to the OTAs coming back online. Eddie has made the point. While we have approved and delayed deals in place with over 90% of the OTAs, some of them have not yet got the pipes or the API pipe fully functional because their IT departments are slower than some of the bigger ones who are better at the IT. And so I think there's more to come from the OTA in Q3 and Q4.

在 OTA 的第三季度，你看，很難將其分開。我的意思是，我們能為您提供的就是我們目前所擁有的，那就是第三季的提前預訂量很強勁。我們今天早上發布了 10 月的流量統計數據。拖拉機負載 94%。流量成長 7%。即使波音公司的交貨延遲，情況也是如此。再次，很難說這其中有多少是用於 OTA 重新上線的。埃迪已經表明了這一點。雖然我們已經批准並推遲了與超過 90% 的 OTA 的交易，但其中一些 OTA 尚未使管道或 API 管道完全發揮作用，因為他們的 IT 部門比一些 IT 能力更強的大型公司要慢。因此，我認為第三季和第四季 OTA 將會帶來更多成果。

But what we can tell you at this point in time is traffic growth is strong, we would still expect, in Q3, that the scheduled traffic in Q3 to be up some 7%, 8%, in line with the October number. And the price decline is certainly moderating. And I go back again, minus 15% in Q1. Some of that was the Easter moving into Q4. Minus 7% in Q2. I think a midpoint between 0 and minus 5 in Q3 would be a reasonable back at the envelope. It's not a forecast, please don't quote it back to me as some bloody forecast, but it is moderating.

但目前我們可以告訴您的是，流量成長強勁，我們仍預期第三季的預定流量將成長 7%、8% 左右，與 10 月的數字一致。而且價格下跌肯定正在放緩。我再次返回，第一季負 15%。其中一些是復活節進入第四季度。第二季負 7%。我認為第三季 0 到負 5 之間的中點將是合理的回歸範圍。這不是預測，請不要將其作為一些該死的預測引用給我，但它正在緩和。

And then it's just hard to know how much Easter will affect Q4. But whenever -- while we have a tough prior year comp in Q4, we will have a bumper Q1, because we'll have all of Easter in next year's Q1, whereas we don't have Easter in the prior -- in this year's Q1.

然後很難知道復活節會對第四季產生多大影響。但無論什麼時候——雖然我們在第四季度有一個艱難的去年比較，但我們將在第一季度獲得豐收，因為我們將在明年第一季度過所有的復活節，而在今年的第一季我們沒有復活節Q1.

The next question comes from Andrew Lobbenberg from Barclays.

下一個問題來自巴克萊銀行的安德魯·洛本伯格。

You're cabin capacity to the U.K., you saved by 10%. What you're going to do with those slots? And then a second question back to OTA. So you bought it, yes? Saying 90% of the OTAs have signed up. But eDreams is kind of large, I think. So would it be fair to say that, that represented more than 10% of your passengers back from last year? So actually, you're missing a bit more than the 10%, you suggest that. What is the pathway forward for you to kiss and make up with eDreams?

您飛往英國的客艙容量節省了 10%。你打算用這些插槽做什麼？然後第二個問題回到 OTA。所以你買了，是嗎？據說90%的OTA已經簽約。但我認為 eDreams 有點大。那麼可以公平地說，這代表了去年返回的乘客的 10% 以上嗎？所以實際上，你所指出的，你錯過的比那 10% 多一點。您與 eDreams 接吻和和解的前進道路是什麼？

Okay. Thanks, Andrew. We -- a lot of the -- as I said, we try to make the point that the -- a lot of the airports in the U.K., if we cut about 5 million passengers out of the U.K. next year, it will be done on frequency. We won't move the aircraft. We won't vacate overnight aircraft in place. So most of our U.K. airports are not slot restricted, but we certainly wouldn't reduce overnight aircraft at the big airport, (inaudible), Manchester, Bristol -- I'm trying to think, Eddie, off the top of my head, is there any other that are slot controlled. I don't think so.

好的。謝謝，安德魯。我們——很多——正如我所說，我們試圖表明這一點——英國的許多機場，如果我們明年減少大約 500 萬名離開英國的乘客，那就可以了關於頻率。我們不會移動飛機。我們不會將過夜的飛機騰出原地。因此，我們大多數英國機場都沒有起降時刻限制，但我們當然不會減少大型機場（聽不清楚）、曼徹斯特、布里斯託的過夜飛機——埃迪，我正在想，還有其他的插槽控制的嗎？我不這麼認為。

Edinburgh, Glasgow, (inaudible). But we will take kind of some -- a lot of the capacity we operate with those airports is on aircraft that are based elsewhere in the Ireland and or in Europe, flying in and out of those airports. And we will divert some of those frequencies away from the U.K., so the lower-cost destinations like Italy, regional Italy, Sweden, Central Eastern Europe, where we're seeing incentives are -- increasing incentives. So we don't think and we wouldn't compromise slot for any of the couple of U.K. airports for slots for us are an issue.

愛丁堡、格拉斯哥（聽不清楚）。但我們會採取一些措施——我們在這些機場運營的大部分運力都來自位於愛爾蘭和/或歐洲其他地方的飛機，這些飛機進出這些機場。我們將把其中一些頻率從英國轉移出去，因此我們看到義大利、義大利地區、瑞典、中東歐等低成本目的地的激勵措施正在增加。因此，我們不認為也不會妥協英國任何兩個機場的航班時刻，因為航班時刻對我們來說是一個問題。

On the OTA, eDreams is 1 of the bigger ones, but it's nowhere near 10% of passengers. None of the OTAs on their own are significant, have a significant impact on our volumes. They're all reasonably modest on a stand-alone basis. If you look at the eDream's business model, however, most -- almost -- well, I find 100% what they claim to be in profitability is coming from this eDreams Prime subscription, where they promise you a discount on 100% of flights. And yet on every flight we've trials, they're overcharging customers.

在 OTA 上，eDreams 是規模較大的公司之一，但其乘客數量遠未達 10%。 OTA 本身並不重要，不會對我們的銷量產生重大影響。就獨立而言，它們都相當謙虛。然而，如果你看看 eDream 的商業模式，我發現他們聲稱的 100% 盈利能力都來自 eDreams Prime 訂閱，他們向你承諾 100% 的航班折扣。然而，在我們嘗試的每一次航班上，他們都會向乘客收取過高的費用。

We think it's an inevitable that eDreams will ultimately have to sign up because I think they're going to see market share to all the competitors, like Loft Holidays and the other OTAs who will simply take that. Because the other OTAs can now offer low Ryanair fares at Ryanair's prices, whereas the ETAs is still tried to run a business where they're inflating Ryanair fares and the cost of Ryanair ancillary services. And I think given the transparency of the web, it's inevitable that they will have to sign up eventually.

我們認為 eDreams 最終必須加入是不可避免的，因為我認為他們會看到所有競爭對手的市場份額，例如 Loft Holidays 和其他 OTA，他們會簡單地佔據這一市場份額。因為其他 OTA 現在可以按照 Ryanair 的價格提供較低的 Ryanair 票價，而 ETA 仍在嘗試經營抬高 Ryanair 票價和 Ryanair 輔助服務成本的業務。我認為考慮到網路的透明度，他們最終不可避免地必須註冊。

We are indifferent as the whether they do or they don't. But at the moment, we're off sale with eDreams, that suits us fine. We don't want to be on sale with anybody who is inflating our airfares or overcharging our customers. And it's the matter for eDreams, we frankly couldn't care less. It's not going to make any difference to us going forward. But we are absolutely determined to ensure that nobody gets between us and our customers. And that we, by working with approved OTAs, ensure that those OTAs are offering their customers real Ryanair fares, and we're getting real customer emails and real customer payment details. Anybody want to add anything on the eDreams OTA side? Feel free. No? Okay.

無論他們是否這樣做，我們都無所謂。但目前，我們的 eDreams 正在打折，這很適合我們。我們不想與任何抬高機票價格或向客戶收取過高費用的人進行促銷。這對 eDreams 來說是個問題，坦白說我們根本不在乎。這不會對我們的未來產生任何影響。但我們絕對決心確保沒有人妨礙我們和我們的客戶。我們透過與經批准的 OTA 合作，確保這些 OTA 為其客戶提供真實的瑞安航空票價，並且我們可以獲得真實的客戶電子郵件和真實的客戶付款詳細資訊。有人想在 eDreams OTA 方面添加任何內容嗎？隨意。不？好的。

The next question is from Gerald Khoo from Panmure Liberum.

下一個問題來自 Panmure Liberum 的 Gerald Khoo。

One if I can. Firstly, on the tax rate which seemed a bit high at 14% in Q2, obviously above by the (inaudible). I was just wondering why that wasn't -- what would be a sensible assumption for the full year? And secondly, on your revised aircraft delivery schedule, could you clarify what you've actually assumed in terms of timing of the resolution of the strike at Boeing, please?

如果可以的話，一。首先，第二季的稅率似乎有點高，為 14%，顯然高於（聽不清楚）。我只是想知道為什麼不是——全年的合理假設是什麼？其次，關於修改後的飛機交付時間表，您能否澄清一下您對解決波音罷工的時間的實際假設？

Okay. Maybe Neil or maybe Tracey McCann might add -- handle the tax, please, and then I'll take the Boeing delivery schedule.

好的。也許尼爾或特雷西麥肯可能會補充說——請處理稅款，然後我將接受波音的交付時間表。

Yes, I'm happy to jump in there on the tax, Gerald. As you're probably aware, we make most of our profit in the first half of the year and in jurisdictions where tax rates are slightly higher, whereas we tend to make less money in the second half of the year. So you'll see the tax rate by rate down as losses to some of the market in H2. I think a reasonable assumption for the full year would be somewhere close between 10% and 11% tax for the full year.

是的，我很高興參與稅務問題，傑拉德。您可能知道，我們的大部分利潤是在上半年和稅率稍高的司法管轄區賺取的，而下半年我們往往賺的錢較少。因此，您會看到稅率逐一下降，導致下半年部分市場遭受損失。我認為全年的合理假設是全年稅收接近 10% 到 11%。

Thanks, Neil. And on the aircraft delivery schedule, we've put there an updated aircraft delivery schedule more flowing. So we can give you a sense of where we think we are in terms of the additional growing delivery delays and why that's causing us to step back our traffic forecast for FY '25, but also for FY '26. We've made no assumptions on the settlement of the strike. The reason where -- the strikes, there's a ballot today on the 38% pay increase. We have no idea whether it will get settled or not. Boeing themselves I think it's about 50-50. I suspect the labor may well turn it down if they're at per 8%. I mean my view is these guys will hang out for 40%, but what do I know.

謝謝，尼爾。在飛機交付時間表上，我們發布了更新的飛機交付時間表，更加流暢。因此，我們可以讓您了解我們認為在額外增加的交付延誤方面我們所處的位置，以及為什麼這導致我們下調 25 財年以及 26 財年的流量預測。我們對罷工的解決並沒有做出任何假設。罷工的原因是，今天就加薪 38% 進行了投票。我們不知道它是否會得到解決。波音公司本身我認為大約是50-50。我懷疑，如果工黨的支持率為 8%，他們很可能會拒絕。我的意思是，我的觀點是這些人會閒逛 40%，但我知道什麼？

I mean all we're saying there is that's what our current forecast will be for FY '26. To get to 210 million passes, we need to get -- for the 9 delayed Q4 aircraft in by the end of April or May and say we get those in the first quarter. And then the critical issue is how many of the 29 additional aircraft do we get by the end of June. We're not going to schedule any aircraft deliveries in July or August, but whatever we get by the end of June. At this point in time, I think 15 is a reasonable assumption. But I would -- that's heavily qualified by what Boeing -- and again, I spoke to Stephanie Pope on Friday, they will update their kind of delivery schedules with us once the strike is finished.

我的意思是，我們所說的就是我們目前對 26 財年的預測。為了達到 2.1 億張通行證，我們需要在 4 月底或 5 月底之前獲得 9 架延遲的第四季度飛機，並說我們將在第一季獲得這些飛機。接下來的關鍵問題是，我們在 6 月底前能獲得 29 架新增飛機中的多少架。我們不會安排在七月或八月交付任何飛機，但無論我們在六月底之前收到什麼。目前，我認為 15 是一個合理的假設。但我會——這對波音來說是非常有資格的——而且，我周五與斯蒂芬妮波普交談過，一旦罷工結束，他們將與我們更新他們的交付時間表。

And they have -- they think that it will take about 4 weeks to get back into kind of full production after the strike. We hope to try to get resolved this week, in which case at least are back up to full production before Thanksgiving -- or after Thanksgiving, but before Christmas. But there is a real risk that those -- we will get less than those 15 aircraft in time by the end of June. If it's 10, if it's 5, I don't know what that impact will be. We will have to move some of our traffic growth out of FY '26 and into FY '27.

他們認為罷工後大約需要 4 週才能恢復全面生產。我們希望在本週努力解決這個問題，在這種情況下至少可以在感恩節之前或感恩節之後但聖誕節之前恢復全面生產。但真正的風險是，我們到 6 月底及時獲得的飛機數量將少於這 15 架。如果是10，如果是5，我不知道會產生什麼影響。我們必須將部分流量成長從 26 財年轉移到 27 財年。

But I would caution, again, the more we have to delay our growth, the better, I think, would be the outcome for pricing in summer 2025 and in FY 2026, with a weak prior year comp in FY '25. Personally, I would like to take as many aircraft as we can get. But as a shareholder, I think the more the aircraft are delayed, the better it would be for our profitability in FY '26.

但我再次提醒大家，我們越是必須推遲成長，我認為 2025 年夏季和 2026 財年的定價結果就越好，因為 25 財年的去年比較疲軟。就我個人而言，我想乘坐盡可能多的飛機。但身為股東，我認為飛機延誤的時間越長，我們 26 財年的獲利能力就越好。

Our last question comes from Conor Dwyer from Morgan Stanley.

我們的最後一個問題來自摩根士丹利的康納·德懷爾。

First question is just on the buyback. You talked about the slowdown being influenced by the payback of bond next year, lower CapEx this year, accelerating it. I'm wondering if there's any influence by the fact that you're also expecting potential rule changes on the ownership? And if basically would make a bit more sense to hold back some of the cash to do more of the buyback on the ordinary.

第一個問題是關於回購。您談到經濟放緩受到明年債券回報的影響，今年資本支出下降，加速了經濟放緩。我想知道您也期望所有權方面的潛在規則變化是否會產生任何影響？如果基本上保留一些現金來進行更多普通股回購會更有意義。

And the second question, on the prerecorded call, Neil, you spoke about a willingness to explore other financing options if they become more attractive than cash. Just wondering if that's only to really kind of change the capital structure or if you also might consider extra leasing to bump up the growth of the overall business over the next few years?

第二個問題，尼爾，在預先錄製的電話會議上，您談到願意探索其他融資選擇，如果它們比現金更有吸引力。只是想知道這是否只是為了真正改變資本結構，或者您是否也可以考慮額外的租賃來促進未來幾年整體業務的成長？

Okay. Thanks. I'll take the first again, and get Neil to take the second. On the buybacks, I don't think the review of the ownership in (inaudible)would have any difference. The buybacks are not driven by the pricing of -- the discount on the ordinaries are on the ADRs. I mean we have -- the current buyback we skewed 70-30 towards the ADRs anyway. But I think it's instructive that since we began this consultation process with the shareholders, the discount on the ordinaries has eroded from 29% to 18%. And almost all of that has come as a result of the cost of the -- or the pricing on the ordinaries rising even at a time when we are buying more ADRs than ordinaries.

好的。謝謝。我會再選第一個，然後讓尼爾選第二個。關於回購，我認為對（聽不清楚）所有權的審查不會有任何區別。回購不是由定價驅動的－普通股的折扣是在美國存託憑證上。我的意思是，無論如何，目前的回購我們以 70-30 的比例向 ADR 傾斜。但我認為，自從我們開始與股東協商以來，普通股的折扣已從 29% 降至 18%，這一點具有啟發性。幾乎所有這些都是由於普通股成本或普通股定價上漲的結果，即使我們購買的美國存託憑證比普通股多。

So I don't think it will make any significant difference. Where if the Board wish to change either the ownership or the control rules in conjunction with our regulators, we will still be facing, I think, material -- the material challenge of very strong cash generation as long as we maintain kind of current profitability for the next 2 or 3 years while we have a gap or a falloff in CapEx. And what drives our share buybacks is surplus internally generated free cash flow. We have no other uses for that cash. And therefore, we're -- as with dividend this year, we completed EUR700 million share buyback.

所以我認為這不會產生任何重大影響。如果董事會希望與監管機構一起改變所有權或控制規則，我認為，只要我們保持當前的盈利能力，我們仍將面臨非常強勁的現金生成的重大挑戰。下降。推動我們股票回購的是內部產生的盈餘自由現金流。這筆現金我們沒有其他用途。因此，與今年的股息一樣，我們完成了 7 億歐元的股票回購。

Now I think there was no doubt that the decline in the share price as a result of the disappointing guidance on pricing and fares this summer. Certainly incentivized the Board, I think, to move quickly and to accelerate the share buyback, but it was driven by having surplus cash. I think the surplus cash will be a little tighter for the next year or 2, given the 2 big bond repayments, but there should still be room for share buybacks over those 2 years. And then we're back into significant CapEx as we start -- as the MAX 10 delivery start to roll out in the first half of 2027.

現在我認為，毫無疑問，股價下跌是由於今年夏天令人失望的定價和票價指引所致。我認為，這無疑激勵了董事會迅速採取行動並加速股票回購，但這是由剩餘現金驅動的。我認為，考慮到兩次大額債券償還，未來一年或兩年的剩餘現金會有點緊張，但在這兩年裡應該仍然有股票回購的空間。然後，隨著 MAX 10 交付於 2027 年上半年開始推出，我們一開始就會重新投入大量資本支出。

So I don't think the bond and our Board's willingness to look at buybacks will be in any way affected by the consultation process on ownership and control. It will be driven solely by our ability to continue to generate really strong free cash flow and deploying that free cash flow in terms of shareholder returns. I look around me at our competitors, all of whom are -- have massive net debt positions and yet we're -- we returned EUR9 billion to shareholders over the last 15 years. And I think there's every indication through a combination of dividends and share buybacks that we'll be able to continue that market-leading performance for the next couple of years.

因此，我認為債券和董事會考慮回購的意願不會受到所有權和控制權諮詢過程的任何影響。這將完全取決於我們繼續產生真正強勁的自由現金流並將自由現金流用於股東回報的能力。我環顧四周，看看我們的競爭對手，他們都擁有巨額的淨債務頭寸，但我們在過去 15 年裡向股東返還了 90 億歐元。我認為，透過股息和股票回購的結合，一切跡象表明我們將能夠在未來幾年繼續保持市場領先的業績。

Neil, I forgot the second half, it has something to do with the prerecord on...

尼爾，我忘了後半部分，這和預錄有關…

The financing options available to us. Conor, we've always been opportunistic in what we do. The reality is in relation to leasing, we've got a higher investment grade rating than any of the lessors out there. So we can raise money cheaper than the lessors. But they would have to have a compelling reason for why we would go towards that financing. I can't see what capacity constraint for some years at the lessors are going to reduce what are now sky-high leasing rates, which thankfully we're not paying, but our competitors are.

我們可用的融資選擇。康納，我們所做的事情一直都是機會主義的。現實情況是，就租賃而言，我們的投資等級評級比任何租賃商都高。所以我們可以比出租人更便宜地籌集資金。但他們必須有一個令人信服的理由來解釋為什麼我們要進行這項融資。我看不出出租人未來幾年的產能限制會降低目前極高的租賃率，值得慶幸的是我們沒有支付租金，但我們的競爭對手支付了。

But if the bond market, for example, was to become cheaper than financing ourselves out of cash to refinance bonds and so forth, we might look at it. Potentially in a few years' time when we're trying to take some of the residual risk from the NGs off the balance sheet, we might look at lessors. But I think if the pricing remains where it's at, that wouldn't be my first, second or third port of call when it comes to looking at alternatives to our current cash.

但例如，如果債券市場變得比用現金為我們自己融資來為債券再融資等更便宜，我們可能會考慮它。幾年後，當我們試圖將非政府組織的一些殘餘風險從資產負債表中剔除時，我們可能會考慮出租人。但我認為，如果定價保持不變，那麼在尋找當前現金的替代品時，這將不會是我的第一、第二或第三個停靠點。

And again, I think you're looking forward to next year, nothing fills me more -- full of optimism more than the aircraft lessors making record profits on lease extensions and new aircraft leases to our competitor airlines. They're driving up the cost of operations of our competitors across Europe at a time when we're taking -- buying new aircraft and using our balance sheet, and those aircraft are carrying 4% more passengers, with more 16%. When we get to the MAX 10, 20% more (inaudible)at 20% less fuel. So I'm very optimistic going forward that the unit cost gap between us and our competitors will continue to widen. And our competition in Europe are going to be under significant pressure.

再說一次，我認為你對明年充滿期待，沒有什麼比飛機租賃商通過向我們的競爭對手航空公司延長租約和新飛機租賃而獲得創紀錄的利潤更讓我充滿樂觀的了。當我們購買新飛機並使用我們的資產負債表時，他們正在推高我們整個歐洲競爭對手的營運成本，而這些飛機的乘客數量增加了 4%，乘客數量增加了 16%。當我們達到 MAX 10 時，燃油量減少 20%，燃油量增加 20%（聽不清楚）。因此，我非常樂觀地認為，我們與競爭對手之間的單位成本差距將持續擴大。我們在歐洲的競爭將面臨巨大壓力。

If you look at Lufthansa's results last week, Air France this week, all talking about EBIT, because there isn't any earnings there. These guys in a constrained capacity market are going to drive up airfare for the next couple of years. And I think that will give us a lot of headroom for -- to see modest growth in airfares, much rate will flow through to Ryanair's bottom line. Any other questions or that's the end of it? No? Okay.

如果你看看漢莎航空上周和法國航空本週的業績，都在談論息稅前利潤，因為那裡沒有任何盈利。在運力有限的市場中，這些人將推高未來幾年的機票價格。我認為這將為我們提供很大的空間——看到機票價格適度增長，大量費率將流入瑞安航空的利潤。還有其他問題嗎？不？好的。

That concludes the Q&A session. I'll hand back to you.

問答環節到此結束。我會把東西還給你。

Thank you very much, everybody. I think we've run 1.5 hours on questions, Q&A. We have an extensive road show in place. I'm -- me and a number of the team are over here in the U.S. And Neil is in the U.K. heading for the U.S. Eddie, and there's other team members who will be covering investor meets in Ireland, in the U.K. and Europe. If anybody wants to meeting with us, please can you contact a Davy's Goodbody, our (inaudible), we'd be very happy to have a meeting with any investors.

非常感謝大家。我想我們已經花了 1.5 個小時來提問、問答。我們舉辦了廣泛的路演。我和團隊的一些成員在美國，尼爾在英國，前往美國艾迪，還有其他團隊成員將報道在愛爾蘭、英國和歐洲舉行的投資者會議。如果有人想與我們會面，請聯絡我們的 Davy's Goodbody（聽不清楚），我們非常樂意與任何投資者會面。

And may I conclude by saying, look, I think we've had a fraught summer on pricing. We were surprised by the downturn in pricing after 2 years of very strong pricing. I think the real message today take away from this call though, if you look at the unit cost performance, the unit cost performance is absolutely bang on. We are doing a stellar job on containing costs. We've been surprised by the weakness in pricing this year. But I think there's -- it's reasonable to expect that pricing will be -- will move modestly upwards for the next summer in a heavily constrained marketplace as long as there's no geopolitical events that disrupt air travel.

最後我想說的是，看，我認為我們在定價方面度過了一個令人擔憂的夏天。經過兩年非常強勁的定價之後，我們對定價的下滑感到驚訝。我認為今天的真正訊息是從這個電話中得到的，如果你看看單位性價比，單位性價比絕對是爆炸性的。我們在控製成本方面做得非常出色。我們對今年定價疲軟感到驚訝。但我認為，只要沒有擾亂航空旅行的地緣政治事件，明年夏天在嚴重受限的市場中，價格將小幅上漲，這是合理的預期。

And I would think the Ryanair balance sheet, concerning Ryanair's P&L is poised to benefit from any improvement on -- in pricing or alternative pricing next year, particularly as we will move into FY '26 with a very weak prior year comp. And with that matter, thank very much. I look forward to seeing you all at some stage over the next week. And Neil and Tracey -- or Neil and Jason is going out to the Baird Industrial Conference in Chicago next week as well. So if we don't get you this week and any one meeting with Neil or Jason, they'll be in Chicago next week. Thanks, everybody. So hope to see you soon. Thanks. Bye.

我認為瑞安航空的資產負債表，涉及瑞安航空的損益表，將受益於明年定價或替代定價的任何改善，特別是因為我們將進入 26 財年，上一年的比較非常疲軟。就此事而言，非常感謝。我期待在下週的某個階段見到大家。尼爾和特雷西——或者尼爾和傑森也將於下週參加在芝加哥舉行的貝爾德工業會議。因此，如果我們本週沒有聯繫到您，也沒有與尼爾或傑森會面，他們下週就會在芝加哥。謝謝大家。所以希望很快能見到你。謝謝。再見。

This concludes today's call. Thank you very much for your attendance. You may now disconnect your lines.

今天的電話會議到此結束。非常感謝您的出席。現在您可以斷開線路。