普拉格能源 (PLUG) 2022 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Greetings, and welcome to Plug's Second Quarter 2022 Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) Please note that this conference is being recorded.

您好，歡迎參加 Plug 2022 年第二季度收益電話會議。 （操作員說明）請注意，本次會議正在錄製中。

I will now turn the conference over to our host, Teal Hoyos, Senior Director, Marketing and Communications. Thank you. You may begin.

我現在將把會議交給我們的主持人，營銷和傳播高級總監 Teal Hoyos。謝謝你。你可以開始了。

Thank you. Welcome to the 2022 second quarter update call. This call will include forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements contain projections of our future results of operations or of our financial position or other forward-looking information. We intend these forward-looking statements to be covered by the safe harbor provisions for forward-looking statements contained in Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.

謝謝你。歡迎來到 2022 年第二季度更新電話。本次電話會議將包括前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述包含對我們未來經營業績或我們的財務狀況或其他前瞻性信息的預測。我們打算將這些前瞻性陳述納入 1933 年《證券法》第 27A 條和 1934 年《證券交易法》第 21E 條中包含的前瞻性陳述的安全港條款。

We believe that it is important to communicate our future expectations to investors. However, investors are cautioned not to unduly rely on forward-looking statements, and such statements should not be read or understood as a guarantee of future performance or results. Such statements are subject to risks and uncertainties and that could cause actual results or performance to differ materially from those discussed as a result of various factors, including, but not limited to, risks and uncertainties discussed under Item 1A Risk Factors and the annual report on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ending December 31, 2021, as well as other reports we file from time to time with the SEC.

我們認為，向投資者傳達我們對未來的期望非常重要。但是，請投資者註意不要過度依賴前瞻性陳述，此類陳述不應被閱讀或理解為對未來業績或結果的保證。此類陳述存在風險和不確定性，可能導致實際結果或業績因各種因素而與所討論的結果或業績存在重大差異，包括但不限於項目 1A 風險因素和年度報告中討論的風險和不確定性。截至 2021 年 12 月 31 日的財政年度的 10-K 表格，以及我們不時向 SEC 提交的其他報告。

These forward-looking statements speak as -- only as of the day on which the statements are made, and we do not undertake or intend to update any forward-looking statements after this call or as a result of new information.

這些前瞻性陳述僅在作出陳述之日起生效，我們不承諾或打算在本次電話會議後或由於新信息而更新任何前瞻性陳述。

At this point, I would like to turn the call over to Plug's CEO, Andy Marsh.

在這一點上，我想將電話轉給 Plug 的首席執行官 Andy Marsh。

Thank you, Teal, and thank you, everyone, for attending Plug's second quarter conference call. The last week has been a monumental week for the world, the U.S., the fuel cell and hydrogen industry and Plug with the passing of the Inflation Reduction Act through the Senate.

謝謝你，Teal，謝謝大家參加 Plug 的第二季度電話會議。上週對世界、美國、燃料電池和氫能行業以及 Plug 來說都是具有里程碑意義的一周，因為通過了參議院通過了《通脹降低法案》。

The recently passed Bill would enact a clean hydrogen production tax credit, the PTC, to incentivize the production of clean hydrogen, providing a major inflection for the world to achieve net zero by 2050 and for hydrogen, especially green hydrogen, to provide 20% of the world's energy. This bill provides a trifecta effect. It's good for climate, it's good for jobs and it's good for national security.

最近通過的法案將製定清潔氫氣生產稅收抵免 PTC，以激勵清潔氫氣的生產，為世界到 2050 年實現淨零排放和氫氣，尤其是綠色氫氣提供 20%世界的能源。該法案提供了三重效果。這對氣候有利，對就業有利，對國家安全有利。

Our electrolyzer business has benefited from the push in Europe to become energy independent from corrupt regimes. We are seeing the benefit as our orders already have exceeded by 50% our projection for the year, with most of that coming from Europe. Now the momentum will grow rapidly here in the states with the PTC as demonstrated by our deal with New Fortress Energy, a 120-megawatt order, which was announced last week, which can grow to 500 megawatts. With the passage of the act, we expect a boom for our electrolyzer and green hydrogen business.

我們的電解器業務受益於歐洲推動能源獨立於腐敗政權的努力。我們看到了好處，因為我們的訂單已經超過了我們今年預測的 50%，其中大部分來自歐洲。現在，PTC 在各州的勢頭將迅速增長，正如我們與 New Fortress Energy 的交易所證明的那樣，這是一個 120 兆瓦的訂單，上周宣布，該訂單可以增長到 500 兆瓦。隨著該法案的通過，我們預計我們的電解槽和綠色氫業務將會蓬勃發展。

All applications that use gray hydrogen today, such as fertilizing manufacturing, will now be able to buy green hydrogen at a competitive price with gray. Applications that are looking to move to hydrogen like steel and concrete manufacturing and natural gas heating will have a path to dramatically reduce their carbon footprint cost competitively. Everyone wants green hydrogen. Now there is a path that always makes it competitive.

今天所有使用灰氫的應用，例如施肥製造，現在都可以以與灰氫相比具有競爭力的價格購買綠氫。尋求轉向氫的應用，如鋼鐵和混凝土製造以及天然氣加熱，將有一條途徑，以具有競爭力的方式顯著降低其碳足跡成本。每個人都想要綠色氫。現在有一條總是使它具有競爭力的路徑。

We believe the first big markets for green hydrogen will be these industrial applications where it's simpler to substitute green hydrogen for other feedstocks. And remember, these applications represent 26% of the world's CO2 footprint. But cost-effective green hydrogen will also help us to expand our application business more rapidly. As hydrogen becomes more plentiful and cost-effective, all of our applications like our Microsoft stationary product offering, HYVIA vans and, of course, powering material handling equipment becomes more attractive.

我們相信綠色氫的第一個大市場將是這些工業應用，在這些工業應用中，用綠色氫代替其他原料更簡單。請記住，這些應用佔全球二氧化碳排放量的 26%。但高性價比的綠氫也將幫助我們更快地拓展應用業務。隨著氫氣變得更加豐富和更具成本效益，我們所有的應用程序，如我們的 Microsoft 固定產品、HYVIA 貨車，當然還有為物料搬運設備提供動力，都變得更具吸引力。

This bill is good for all our stakeholders, including customers, shareholders, our employees and the communities. For our shareholders, as mentioned in our investor letter, will move up our path to profitability by 6 months.

該法案對我們所有的利益相關者都有好處，包括客戶、股東、我們的員工和社區。對於我們的股東，正如我們在投資者信中提到的那樣，我們的盈利之路將提前 6 個月。

Finally, before Q&A, I'd like to highlight Plug's priorities beyond our revenue goals a $900 million to $925 million in 2022 and $3 billion in 2025. First, our first and foremost, our path to profitability in 2024. This includes the following key initiatives: one, commissioning 70 tons of green hydrogen in 2022 and 500 by 2025 in the U.S. and 1,000 tons globally by 2028. Our hydrogen business will reach more than 30% plus gross margins in 2024. The math is quite simple via a combination of vertical integration and the PTC. Obviously, we are reviewing the possibilities of building more plants sooner than later to leverage our leadership position. Two, and you can see it, our service business will be gross margin breakeven by year's end and growing to 30% gross margin by the start of 2024. We are already experiencing significant improvements with the latest versions of our products. And look, scale matters. So our goal is sell more electrolyzers, sell more green hydrogen sell more fuel cells, especially for our stationary products, HYVIA and of course, our material handling business.

最後，在問答之前，我想強調一下 Plug 的優先事項，超出我們的收入目標，即 2022 年 9 億至 9.25 億美元和 2025 年 30 億美元。首先，我們的首要任務是在 2024 年實現盈利。這包括以下關鍵舉措：一，到 2022 年投產 70 噸綠色氫，到 2025 年在美國投產 500 噸，到 2028 年在全球投產 1000 噸。我們的氫業務將在 2024 年達到 30% 以上的毛利率。數學很簡單，通過結合垂直整合和 PTC。顯然，我們正在審查儘早建造更多工廠以利用我們的領導地位的可能性。第二，你可以看到，我們的服務業務到年底將實現毛利率收支平衡，到 2024 年初將增長到 30% 的毛利率。我們已經在使用最新版本的產品時經歷了重大改進。看，規模很重要。所以我們的目標是銷售更多的電解槽，銷售更多的綠色氫氣，銷售更多的燃料電池，特別是對於我們的固定產品 HYVIA，當然還有我們的材料處理業務。

And 4, full deployment of our highly optimized and automated Gigafactory and Vista site that will drive down our costs of our manufacturing and improve our quality. These are showcase manufacturing sites, not just for the fuel cell industries but across all industries. And finally, success with our 4 JVs, SK, HYVIA, ACCIONA, and Fortescue. Executing on these strategies alone will allow us to continue and expand upon our industry leadership position. Of course, we won't stop here, but my team knows executing the above is our top priority.

4、全面部署我們高度優化和自動化的 Gigafactory 和 Vista 站點，這將降低我們的製造成本並提高我們的質量。這些是展示製造基地，不僅適用於燃料電池行業，而且適用於所有行業。最後，我們的 4 家合資企業 SK、HYVIA、ACCIONA 和 Fortescue 取得了成功。僅執行這些戰略將使我們能夠繼續並擴大我們的行業領導地位。當然，我們不會止步於此，但我的團隊知道執行上述操作是我們的首要任務。

Paul, Sanjay and I are now open for your questions.

Paul、Sanjay 和我現在願意回答您的問題。

(Operator Instructions) And our first question comes from Colin Rusch with Oppenheimer.

（操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自 Colin Rusch 和 Oppenheimer。

I guess this is maybe a question for Sanjay. Looking at the green hydrogen opportunity in the U.S., I'm curious about the maturity of the conversations with potential industrial users. And a sense of volume that you could start converting relatively quickly as well as your land position for incremental facilities and maturity of conversations with power sourcing, which it looks like it could get pretty competitive fairly quickly.

我想這可能是 Sanjay 的問題。看看美國的綠色氫能機會，我很好奇與潛在工業用戶對話的成熟度。以及您可以相對較快地開始轉換的體積感，以及您用於增量設施的土地位置以及與電源對話的成熟度，看起來它可以很快獲得相當大的競爭力。

Yes. So Colin, great question. Let me take the second part of the question first, right? So one of the things we've been spending a lot of time doing, and you've heard us say this before as well. One of our biggest focus is sourcing right location so that we can get the right price of power, which is renewable power. The level of activity on that, both internally as well as working with a third party, if anything, has picked up quite a bit.

是的。所以科林，好問題。讓我先回答問題的第二部分，對吧？所以我們花了很多時間做的一件事，你以前也聽過我們這樣說。我們最大的重點之一是尋找合適的位置，以便我們能夠獲得合適的電力價格，即可再生能源。這方面的活動水平，無論是在內部還是與第三方合作，如果有的話，已經有了很大的提高。

So you guys -- as Andy mentioned in his prepared remarks, we're actually looking to build more plants faster, not the other way around, number one. Number two, what we're really looking to do is, and we've taken this approach, right, where when the hydro is the best solution, we go for that hydro and then we think about how can we expand our facility even without hydropower electricity.

所以你們——正如安迪在他準備好的講話中提到的那樣，我們實際上是在尋求更快地建造更多的工廠，而不是反過來，第一。第二，我們真正想做的是，我們已經採取了這種方法，對，當水電是最好的解決方案時，我們會選擇水電，然後我們考慮如何在沒有水電的情況下擴展我們的設施水電電力。

Second, we then look at wind source, what are the right location for that? How do you get the complement power there. There's a lot of activity going on beyond some of the things we've talked to you all about in Texas. There are other locations that are pretty far along. Please stay tuned. We'll be able to talk about that even more.

其次，我們再看風源，什麼是合適的位置？你如何在那裡獲得補充力量。除了我們在德克薩斯州與您談過的一些事情之外，還有很多活動正在進行。還有其他很遠的地方。敬請期待。我們將能夠談論更多。

And in terms of solar, obviously, we're looking at multiple locations in the regions that you can think about. And one of the things we're really doing is that how do you not only look at the land, but how can you expand that? How could you think about larger solar plant? How do you really think about approach like net energy meter and how do you really drive the cost of that electricity down?

就太陽能而言，顯然，我們正在研究您可以考慮的地區的多個位置。我們真正在做的一件事是，你如何不僅看待這片土地，而且如何擴大它？你怎麼能想到更大的太陽能發電廠？您如何真正考慮像淨電錶這樣的方法，以及您如何真正降低電力成本？

And we're even evaluating some of the options surrounding nuclear if the price of power is right. So the discussion, both internal work as well as with the third party is very, very robust. And Colin, as you can imagine, we are focused on one goal, and only one goal, and that is how do you drive that cost of renewable electricity to be down so that we can continue to drive the cost of green hydrogen down.

如果電力價格合適，我們甚至正在評估圍繞核能的一些選擇。因此，無論是內部工作還是與第三方的討論都非常非常有力。科林，正如你可以想像的那樣，我們專注於一個目標，只有一個目標，那就是你如何降低可再生電力的成本，以便我們能夠繼續降低綠色氫的成本。

And on the industrial front, as you saw in our shareholder letter, and as Andy touched on it, with this PTC, it really opens all markets for us. Green hydrogen is now economical versus gray hydrogen and every single one of those applications. You have seen some of the announcements here even before the PTC was enacted, as Andy talked about this 120-megawatt electrolyzer opportunity. When you really think about the amount of the hydrogen that is a gray hydrogen being used in industrial application today, that really creates a very, very substantial opportunity for us.

在工業方面，正如您在我們的股東信中看到的那樣，正如安迪談到的那樣，有了這個 PTC，它確實為我們打開了所有市場。與灰氫和每一種應用相比，綠氫現在更經濟。您甚至在 PTC 頒布之前就已經在這裡看到了一些公告，因為 Andy 談到了這個 120 兆瓦電解槽的機會。當您真正考慮當今工業應用中使用的灰色氫的數量時，這確實為我們創造了非常非常重要的機會。

So now again, this is a recent event here. There's going to be a lot of activity. We fully anticipate that. And even if only 20% of those application goes with on-site electrolyzer, you're talking about 10-plus gigawatts of electrolyzer opportunity in this industrial opportunity for us as well.

所以現在再說一次，這是這裡最近發生的一個事件。會有很多活動。我們完全預料到了這一點。即使只有 20% 的應用與現場電解槽配套使用，您也在為我們談論這個工業機會中 10 多吉瓦的電解槽機會。

Would you like to add anything?

你想添加什麼嗎？

No. Perfect. Anything else, Colin?

沒有十全十美的。還有什麼，科林？

Yes. Now I'd like to talk a little bit about supply chain for both the electrolyzer and the fuel cells. I mean, obviously, this is kind of a watershed moment for the industry and you've kind of stressed that in front of a lot of competitors in terms of scaling up. But I'm curious about your supply chain and their preparedness to really respond to how big this could get and how fast you guys want to move.

是的。現在我想談談電解槽和燃料電池的供應鏈。我的意思是，顯然，這對行業來說是一個分水嶺，你在很多競爭對手面前強調了擴大規模。但我很好奇你們的供應鏈以及他們是否準備好真正回應這可能會變得有多大以及你們想以多快的速度行動。

I'm sure that you've kind of bounced those ideas around, but -- and those conversations are going to get more concrete here. But I'm just curious what you can say about that at this point.

我敢肯定，您已經對這些想法進行了反复討論，但是-這些對話將在這裡變得更加具體。但我只是好奇你在這一點上能說些什麼。

Yes. Colin, I would kind of first take a step back and say there's actually 3 ingredients to that supply chain. One actually has to do with design. And when I think about our PEM electrolyzer design, we envision that sooner rather than later, a staff today will actually have about double the power, which actually simplifies, really, our supply chain. So a lot of that happens with can you design the product simpler. And that's continuing to go through our business.

是的。 Colin，我會先退後一步，說該供應鏈實際上有 3 種成分。一個實際上與設計有關。當我想到我們的 PEM 電解槽設計時，我們設想遲早，今天的員工實際上將擁有大約兩倍的權力，這實際上簡化了我們的供應鏈。所以很多事情發生在你能不能把產品設計得更簡單。這將繼續貫穿我們的業務。

Probably the more important one is, are we adding the right people. And I think the reasons that we don't -- not foresee supply issues this year is because the leadership we've put in place. As you know, I've hired Dave Mindnich for Tesla who drove their Reno facility to make sure Tesla vehicles could be delivered. That same sort of mentality about how to develop those strategic relationships with suppliers, we've been working on for a long time.

可能更重要的是，我們是否添加了合適的人。我認為我們沒有預見到今年供應問題的原因是因為我們已經建立了領導層。如您所知，我為特斯拉聘請了戴夫·明尼奇（Dave Mindnich），他駕駛他們的里諾工廠以確保特斯拉汽車能夠交付。關於如何與供應商發展戰略關係的這種心態，我們一直在努力。

And third, look, a lot about this whole integrated supply chain is your own manufacturing capability. And the facility we built in Rochester, the facility we've built in Vista, which now we can occupy, I think, dramatically changes everything. So we have sophisticated people who have been driving our supply chain for the past years. We have designs, which we're looking to reduce the number of parts, which help us with cost and supply chain. And third, we have the facilities.

第三，看，整個集成供應鏈的很多方面是您自己的製造能力。我們在羅切斯特建造的設施，我們在 Vista 建造的設施，現在我們可以佔用，我認為，這極大地改變了一切。因此，我們有經驗豐富的人，他們在過去幾年一直在推動我們的供應鏈。我們有設計，我們希望減少零件數量，這有助於我們降低成本和供應鏈。第三，我們有設施。

And look, our goal is to continue to have that leadership position.

看，我們的目標是繼續保持領導地位。

I don't want to downplay that -- and I'm not trying on this call, the downplay that we don't fight supply chain issues every day. We do. But that is -- the first item I get in the morning is what's going on and do they need me to make a call. So it is an everyday effort and it is more complicated. But I would say that it's less intense than it was.

我不想淡化這一點——我也不是在嘗試這個電話，淡化我們不會每天都在解決供應鏈問題。我們的確是。但那是 - 我早上得到的第一個項目是發生了什麼，他們需要我打電話嗎？所以這是一項日常工作，而且更複雜。但我會說它沒有以前那麼激烈。

Our next question comes from James West with Evercore ISI.

我們的下一個問題來自與 Evercore ISI 的 James West。

So Andy, clearly, a lot of game-changing action here recently. One of the things I wanted to hone in on, and this is before we even talk about the PTC is the data center, the successful test that you had with Microsoft and the opening up of that market. Could you maybe talk through what the next steps are and how that will evolve? And how do you get to that? I think you put out a $40 billion market opportunity number?

所以安迪，很明顯，最近有很多改變遊戲規則的動作。在我們談論 PTC 之前，我想要磨練的一件事是數據中心，你與微軟的成功測試以及該市場的開放。您能否談談下一步是什麼以及它將如何發展？你是怎麼做到的？我認為您提出了一個 400 億美元的市場機會數字？

And Colin -- I'm sorry, James, first, it was a big step. I mean that activity with Microsoft to design that product was a combined 2.5-year effort. And already, we have developed the next-generation product, which we'll be rolling out to Microsoft and others in the fourth quarter here.

還有科林——對不起，詹姆斯，首先，這是一大步。我的意思是，與微軟合作設計該產品需要 2.5 年的時間。我們已經開發了下一代產品，我們將在第四季度向微軟和其他公司推出該產品。

And I think in our letter, we really outlined numbers for this market. I think the numbers were in the next 12 months, Sanjay. Yes. I think over the next 18 months, about 200 megawatts of activity.

我認為在我們的信中，我們確實概述了這個市場的數字。我認為這些數字是在接下來的 12 個月內，桑傑。是的。我認為在接下來的 18 個月中，大約有 200 兆瓦的活動。

So the numbers are just starting, James. But with that application, and we're talking -- we're engaged with all the data center operators. But it also is very applicable. And I was down in the City of Albany talking about this today, about the challenges many people are having with powering EVs. And I think our first big deployments, believe it or not, will be powering electric vehicles where hydrogen will be generated outside of town and brought in to power stationary products, believe it or not. That's one that's not as obvious, but it's actually probably will be the first biggest market for that opportunity.

所以這些數字才剛剛開始，詹姆斯。但是對於那個應用程序，我們正在談論 - 我們正在與所有數據中心運營商合作。但它也非常適用。今天我在奧爾巴尼市談論這個問題，談到許多人在為電動汽車供電時面臨的挑戰。而且我認為，不管你信不信，我們的第一個大型部署將為電動汽車提供動力，氫將在城外產生，並為固定產品提供動力，信不信由你。這不是很明顯，但實際上它可能是該機會的第一個最大市場。

And third, this same product scaled as we scale it, and there'll be different continuous generation is what we plan for SK. And for SK by the end of '24, we'll be deploying 200 megawatts worth of product. So this is a huge opportunity for us and really just beginning. But it's not only a huge op -- and when you think about it, these are really the beginning of the future peaker plants that combined with the work Sanjay's doing with pipelines and well as green hydrogen generation, that's really the bigger vision. The $40 billion really only represents what's going on at data centers.

第三，同樣的產品隨著我們的擴展而擴展，並且會有不同的連續生成，這是我們為 SK 計劃的。到 24 年底，對於 SK，我們將部署價值 200 兆瓦的產品。所以這對我們來說是一個巨大的機會，而且才剛剛開始。但這不僅僅是一個巨大的操作——當你考慮它時，這些確實是未來峰值工廠的開始，結合桑傑在管道和綠色氫生產方面所做的工作，這真的是更大的願景。 400 億美元實際上只代表了數據中心正在發生的事情。

Right. Okay. Okay. Got it. That's very helpful, Andy. And then the other thing you announced earlier in the quarter, was the port and Antwerp and that you'll be building a large-scale facility there. That seems like another big deal, but also probably the first of maybe a series of port applications that you might look to exercise on. Is that fair?

正確的。好的。好的。知道了。這很有幫助，安迪。然後你在本季度早些時候宣布的另一件事是港口和安特衛普，你將在那裡建造一個大型設施。這似乎是另一件大事，但也可能是您可能希望練習的一系列端口應用程序中的第一個。這公平嗎？

Yes. I would say, absolutely. And I think, James, if you look at that port, it is the second largest chemical port in the world. We're looking to add -- they're looking to add a green hydrogen pipeline at that port to feed all the chemical plants. And we certainly are looking to scale it. And what was it, 300 miles, there's like 60% of the population in Europe is close enough to that port. Boy, what ideal situation for Plug to really be building our HYVIA business, material handling business in Stationery.

是的。我會說，絕對。我認為，詹姆斯，如果你看看那個港口，它是世界上第二大化工港口。我們希望增加——他們希望在該港口增加一條綠色氫氣管道，為所有化工廠提供燃料。我們當然希望擴大規模。它是什麼，300 英里，歐洲有 60% 的人口離那個港口足夠近。男孩，Plug 真正建立我們的 HYVIA 業務、文具材料處理業務的理想情況。

So that is -- and here in the states, James, I actually believe the best opportunities for these hydrogen hubs. I was meeting with Senator Ossoff in Georgia, and we talked a lot about the hydrogen hub possibilities in Georgia. And one of the biggest focus is the Port of Savannah. You think about the Port of Savannah, I guess, the Port of New York, New Jersey, even I know in West Virginia when we met with Senator Manchin, there is an opportunity to bring hydrogen from West Virginia into the Great Lakes. So ports and moving hydrogen is really, really a huge opportunity.

就是這樣 - 在各州，詹姆斯，我實際上相信這些氫樞紐的最佳機會。我在佐治亞州與參議員奧索夫會面，我們就佐治亞州的氫樞紐可能性進行了很多討論。最大的焦點之一是薩凡納港。你想想薩凡納港，我猜是新澤西州的紐約港，甚至我在西弗吉尼亞州與參議員曼欽會面時都知道，有機會將西弗吉尼亞州的氫氣帶入五大湖。因此，港口和運輸氫氣確實是一個巨大的機會。

Our next question comes from Alex Kania with Wolfe Research.

我們的下一個問題來自 Wolfe Research 的 Alex Kania。

Maybe like a philosophical question about how to think about the PTC with respect to pricing. I guess in the near term, if you've got fixed price contracts, maybe the PTC is something that you're able to kind of pocket but then maybe over time, and obviously, that would help out with the near-term kind of margin headwinds. But then over time, is it fair to assume -- or I'm just curious about how you're thinking about what the PTC means for how you negotiate green hydrogen deals moving forward?

也許就像一個關於如何考慮 PTC 定價的哲學問題。我想在短期內，如果你有固定價格的合同，也許 PTC 是你可以掏腰包的東西，但隨著時間的推移，很明顯，這將有助於近期的那種邊際逆風。但是隨著時間的推移，假設是否公平 - 或者我只是好奇你如何看待 PTC 對你如何談判綠色氫交易的未來意味著什麼？

Yes. I think really good question, Alex. Look, I think that when you think about the near term and contracts we have, the company will be able to capture most of that PTC. I think that like other industries, I think there'll be some sharing along the line. Obviously, those who invest the most, which is us, will capture the majority but I think that's how it will evolve.

是的。我認為這個問題非常好，亞歷克斯。看，我認為當您考慮我們擁有的近期和合同時，該公司將能夠獲得大部分 PTC。我認為就像其他行業一樣，我認為會有一些分享。顯然，那些投資最多的人，也就是我們，將佔據多數，但我認為這就是它的發展方式。

Great. And then maybe a follow-up just to...

偉大的。然後也許只是為了......

I don't think it's much different than what you see with other credits. I think I think what shouldn't be forgotten, though, is a more competitive hydrogen price makes all our applications, and quite honestly, everybody's applications, more interesting. So it's a great opportunity for our apps. And it's a great opportunity for us to provide green hydrogen to others.

我認為這與您在其他學分中看到的沒有太大不同。不過，我認為我認為不應該忘記的是，更具競爭力的氫價格使我們所有的應用程序，老實說，每個人的應用程序都更有趣。所以這對我們的應用程序來說是一個很好的機會。這對我們來說是一個向他人提供綠色氫的絕佳機會。

That makes sense. And maybe just thinking about now the fact that the U.S. has -- is looking to have a pretty supportive policy environment. And it looks like Europe is aiming for something with REPowerEU. I mean how do you think about kind of balancing your focus? Do you think you can kind of scale kind of both of those continents and kind of the way that you hope? Or now does this kind of maybe defer it a little bit more attention towards the U.S.?

那講得通。也許現在想想美國已經 - 正在尋求一個非常支持性的政策環境。看起來歐洲的目標是使用 REPowerEU。我的意思是你如何看待平衡你的注意力？你認為你能以你希望的方式擴展這兩個大陸嗎？或者現在這種可能會推遲它對美國的更多關注？

That's actually a real interesting question, Alex, and you must have heard my testimony in front of the Energy Committee because I mentioned without policy, our focus would move more radically to more rapidly to Europe.

這實際上是一個非常有趣的問題，亞歷克斯，你一定聽過我在能源委員會面前的證詞，因為我提到如果沒有政策，我們的重點將更徹底地轉移到更快地到歐洲。

At the moment, we believe for Plug, the 2 best market opportunities for the U.S. and Europe. And I think we will be leveraging our partnerships more newer, while most what we'll do here in The States, we'll do it by ourselves.

目前，我們相信 Plug 是美國和歐洲的兩個最佳市場機會。而且我認為我們將利用我們的合作夥伴關係更新，而我們將在美國做的大部分事情，我們將自己做。

In Spain, when you think about how to leverage solar, you couldn't have a better partner than ACCIONA. Our activity in the wind belt, up in Denmark with H2 Energy and with other activities we're looking at, I think that's where we'll be focused with -- obviously, with Renault JV, we're focusing on leveraging their capabilities. So in Europe, I think it will be much more partnership-oriented and people who can help lead us in Europe. Here in The States, we will take a leadership position.

在西班牙，當您考慮如何利用太陽能時，沒有比 ACCIONA 更好的合作夥伴了。我們在風帶上的活動，在丹麥的 H2 Energy 以及我們正在研究的其他活動，我認為這就是我們將關注的地方 - 顯然，對於雷諾合資企業，我們專注於利用他們的能力。所以在歐洲，我認為這將更加註重合作夥伴關係，並且可以幫助領導我們在歐洲的人。在美國，我們將擔任領導職務。

But quite honestly, without this bill, more and more of our focus would have turned to Europe. But now I think it will be a much more balanced approach. But I always like to remind people of the pure-play hydrogen players, no one in the past 2 years have invested more in Europe than Plug. Plug is both an American company and a European company.

但老實說，如果沒有這項法案，我們將越來越多的注意力轉向歐洲。但現在我認為這將是一種更加平衡的方法。但我總是想提醒人們純氫玩家，在過去的 2 年裡，沒有人在歐洲的投資比 Plug 多。 Plug既是一家美國公司，也是一家歐洲公司。

Our next question comes from Bill Peterson with JPMorgan.

我們的下一個問題來自摩根大通的比爾·彼得森。

It's good to see the Inflation Reduction Act passed after a couple of head fakes. .

很高興看到在幾次假冒之後通過了《降低通脹法案》。 .

But I wanted to actually follow up on that last question on Europe. We saw the IPCEI Hy2Tech come to EUR 5.4 billion in funding. We see a lot of logos on there, but not Plug directly, we see a lot of your partners. I guess, is there a path for Plug to directly benefit in this? So does it entail local manufacturing? I'm just kind of dovetail on that last question, like how does Plug benefit from that? And what is taking me to do to benefit more?

但我想真正跟進關於歐洲的最後一個問題。我們看到 IPCEI Hy2Tech 獲得了 54 億歐元的資金。我們在那裡看到很多徽標，但不是直接插入，我們看到了很多您的合作夥伴。我想，Plug 有沒有直接從中受益的途徑？那麼它需要本地製造嗎？我只是在最後一個問題上有點吻合，比如 Plug 如何從中受益？什麼讓我受益更多？

No, I think that, first, our focus was our partnerships. And if you look at HYVIA, and I know the numbers haven't been announced, but the level of support HYVIA has received is significant. And that has been -- that was our major initiative for on-road vehicles. We obviously have activities as Plug alone going on in Belgium with support from the Belgium government.

不，我認為，首先，我們的重點是我們的合作夥伴關係。如果你看看 HYVIA，我知道這些數字還沒有公佈，但 HYVIA 獲得的支持水平是顯著的。這一直是我們在道路車輛方面的主要舉措。顯然，在比利時政府的支持下，我們作為 Plug 獨自在比利時開展的活動。

I think as we get viewed as more and more European, and I take a look at the fact that I was invited to France, I was at a dinner with Macron, Plug is beginning to be recognized more and more throughout Europe. And I think as our presence becomes clearer, we'll be able to participate more directly. But at the moment, we felt that to maximize the amount of cash to support our activities in line with our business goal that HYVIA certainly was the best vehicle. And I can just tell you, Bill, that has really paid off.

我認為隨著我們越來越被視為歐洲人，並且我看一下我被邀請到法國的事實，我正在與馬克龍共進晚餐，Plug 開始在整個歐洲得到越來越多的認可。我認為隨著我們的存在變得更加清晰，我們將能夠更直接地參與。但目前，我們認為為了最大限度地利用現金支持我們的活動，符合我們的業務目標，HYVIA 無疑是最好的工具。我可以告訴你，比爾，這真的得到了回報。

Terrific. And the other side of the coin, you did kind of [machinate] about electric cars and stationary as being the first big market. I believe you're actually seeing some of that later this year as part of the sort of back half weighted. Hoping you can size that opportunity, I guess, as a run rate actually this year, but more importantly, how does that business look over the next few years, given that it looks like it's one of the -- it's not the biggest stationary opportunity in the near term, certainly, one of the bigger ones.

了不起。硬幣的另一面，你確實 [陰謀] 將電動汽車和固定裝置作為第一個大市場。我相信你實際上會在今年晚些時候看到其中一些作為後半部分加權的一部分。希望你能把這個機會，我猜，作為今年的實際運行率，但更重要的是，該業務在未來幾年的情況如何，因為它看起來是其中之一——它不是最大的固定機會在短期內，當然是更大的一個。

If I was going to talk about from a Plug perspective, the stationary market will -- beyond electrolyzers, we see the state stationary market is really going to grow more rapidly than on-road vehicles in the next 2 to 3 years. And it's really because there's 2 big applications. One is, as I mentioned earlier in the call, powering electric vehicles.

如果我要從 Plug 的角度來談論，固定市場將 - 除了電解槽之外，我們看到在未來 2 到 3 年，國家固定市場的增長速度確實將超過公路車輛。這真的是因為有兩個大的應用程序。正如我之前在電話會議中提到的，一種是為電動汽車提供動力。

The second one is this data center market, which when you have people like Microsoft -- and obviously, if anyone has read the blog, we've developed a very, very close relationship that -- and really demonstrated, I think, what do they call it, a moon? Yes, it was a man's walking on the moon.

第二個是這個數據中心市場，當你有像微軟這樣的人時——顯然，如果有人讀過博客，我們已經建立了非常、非常密切的關係——並且我認為確實證明了，他們叫它，月亮？是的，那是一個人在月球上行走。

They're looking to eliminate all diesel by 2025 or 2030. We think that's going to be an incredible opportunity for Plug.

他們希望在 2025 年或 2030 年之前淘汰所有柴油。我們認為這對 Plug 來說將是一個難以置信的機會。

If you think about 2024, for example, I think this business will be -- that portion of our business could be more than 20%, 25% of our business. And then when I think about On-Road, HYVIA is looking to have 100,000 vehicles on the road by 2030. So there's a real good road map for us with HYVIA.

例如，如果您考慮 2024 年，我認為這項業務將是 - 我們業務的那部分可能超過我們業務的 20%、25%。然後當我想到 On-Road 時，HYVIA 希望到 2030 年有 100,000 輛汽車上路。所以 HYVIA 為我們提供了一個非常好的路線圖。

And the fact that we have 20 customers who are going to be piloting our products over the next 6 months, I think, which is double the number that we expected when we talked to you at the beginning of the year. I think that's a real sure clear sign that those business opportunities are large.

我認為，我們有 20 名客戶將在未來 6 個月內試用我們的產品，這是我們在年初與您交談時預期的數字的兩倍。我認為這是一個非常明確的信號，表明這些商機很大。

Our next question comes from P.J. Juvekar with Citi.

我們的下一個問題來自花旗銀行的 P.J. Juvekar。

Yes. Great news with PTC. And just a question on sort of levelized cost of hydrogen. Where do you think that cost is today on the U.S. Gulf Coast, which is the biggest market for hydrogen in the U.S.? And where do you think it goes post PTC? I'm just trying to get how quickly with the heavy-duty industry like refining and steel would start converting to green hydrogen.

是的。 PTC 的好消息。只是一個關於氫的平準化成本的問題。你認為今天美國墨西哥灣沿岸的成本在哪裡，這是美國最大的氫氣市場？您認為它在 PTC 之後的發展方向是什麼？我只是想知道像煉油和鋼鐵這樣的重型工業會以多快的速度開始轉換為綠色氫。

I'm going to turn that over to Sanjay here, P.J.

我要把它交給桑傑，P.J.

So P.J., as you know it very well, right, when we talk about gray hydrogen, we got to kind of put that in context with on-site gaseous gray hydrogen versus liquid hydrogen as well. So I mean, despite the sort of the commodity price volatility and all that, if you use us talking about on-site gray hydrogen supporting things like refining industry or the ammonia and things like that, the number would be probably around $1.50 a kilogram, give or take, okay? So if you're looking at that $1.25 to $1.50 kind of a number, now take a step back, right?

所以 P.J.，你很清楚，對，當我們談論灰氫時，我們必須將其與現場氣態灰氫與液態氫聯繫起來。所以我的意思是，儘管商品價格波動如此之多，如果你用我們談論支持煉油工業或氨之類的現場灰氫，這個數字可能在每公斤 1.50 美元左右，給予或接受，好嗎？因此，如果您正在查看 1.25 到 1.50 美元的數字，現在退後一步，對嗎？

Think about on-site electrolyzer, $0.04 a kilowatt hour electricity right, connected to that electrolyzer then you take into consideration 55-kilowatt hour of electricity when you got some capital cost there, then you layer on PTC. So all of a sudden, right, there is not a single application where the green hydrogen is not economical anymore. Obviously, it will take some time for the industry to evolve and grow as we move ahead, but that's what happens.

想想現場電解器，每千瓦時 0.04 美元的電，連接到那個電解器，然後當你在那裡有一些資本成本時，你考慮到 55 千瓦時的電力，然後你在 PTC 上分層。所以突然之間，對，沒有一個單一的應用程序使綠色氫不再經濟。顯然，隨著我們的前進，該行業需要一些時間來發展和成長，但這就是發生的事情。

Now take that into the liquid hydrogen market and think about long sort of transportation application, mobility applications, when you start to think about the diesel parity, our view always has been, it's not about thinking about can we charge more than diesel because it's -- our system is more efficient. We want it to be at diesel parity, right?

現在把它帶入液氫市場，想想長期的交通應用，移動應用，當你開始考慮柴油平價時，我們的觀點一直是，它不是在考慮我們能不能比柴油收費，因為它 - - 我們的系統更有效率。我們希望它達到柴油平價，對吧？

When you look at those numbers, all of a sudden, even from a liquid hydrogen perspective, so market can comfortably be in that $4 to $5 range delivered. And with PTC, that path becomes even that much more clear. And for folks like us, it actually allows us to provide that kind of a pricing, make return on our plant.

當您查看這些數字時，突然之間，即使從液態氫的角度來看，市場也可以輕鬆地在 4 到 5 美元的範圍內交付。有了 PTC，這條道路變得更加清晰。對於像我們這樣的人來說，它實際上允許我們提供這種定價，讓我們的工廠獲得回報。

And P.J. hope that folks do appreciate one point, which is we've been at it now for some time. And the fact that we've been building this green hydrogen plant, the work we have done, the learnings we have had, I think, really, really stands out as a big force mover and a competitive advantage for Plug.

P.J.希望人們確實欣賞一點，那就是我們現在已經有一段時間了。事實上，我們一直在建造這個綠色氫工廠，我們所做的工作，我們所學到的知識，我認為，真的，真的非常突出，成為 Plug 的巨大推動力和競爭優勢。

Great. And clearly, you guys have been ahead in terms of building out this green hydrogen infrastructure. So congrats to you guys.

偉大的。顯然，你們在建設這種綠色氫基礎設施方面一直處於領先地位。所以恭喜你們。

I guess my second question is with this PTC demand for green hydrogen takes off, which it will, your electrolyzer orders could also go up, just like what you've seen with Hydrogen Energy and New Fortress Energy. Do you have enough capacity at Rochester? Was Rochester built with PTC in mind or do you need to expand more, even more?

我想我的第二個問題是隨著 PTC 對綠色氫的需求起飛，你的電解槽訂單也可能會上升，就像你在氫能和新堡壘能源中看到的那樣。你在羅切斯特有足夠的能力嗎？ Rochester 是在考慮 PTC 的情況下構建的，還是您需要擴展更多甚至更多？

I think that's a real good question, P.J. And I hope the answer is I have to expand more. But let me kind of give a picture where I think I mentioned earlier that we do think there's possibilities that we'll be at a rate of about 1 megawatt a month in -- I'm doing my math here, 100 megawatts a month by October in Rochester.

我認為這是一個很好的問題，P.J. 我希望答案是我必須擴展更多。但是，讓我給出一張圖片，我想我之前提到過，我們確實認為我們有可能以每月約 1 兆瓦的速度 - 我在這裡做數學，每月 100 兆瓦十月在羅切斯特。

I think there's a way to optimize that facility and push that probably up to 150, 160. I think there's an opportunity to make design improvements. But I do think especially in Europe, we'll be looking at opportunities to expand our manufacturing footprint to support that market. So we've already had, I'll say, some addition -- some initial discussion. So I think that's an opportunity.

我認為有一種方法可以優化該設施並將其提高到 150、160。我認為有機會進行設計改進。但我確實認為，尤其是在歐洲，我們將尋找機會擴大我們的製造足跡以支持該市場。所以我們已經有了一些補充——一些初步的討論。所以我認為這是一個機會。

And one of the items, I think we did really well was that we designed that plant that we can take that design and duplicate it, duplicate it, duplicate it. So that the footprint and design we put together, it probably would take us 15 months to build another plant. I think when you look at that, I think that we will be probably giving that a lot more serious thought, especially for Europe, so that we're in great position to capitalize on this opportunity. But having built a plant and then just having to duplicate it, is a lot simpler than doing it for the first time. And I used to have a full head of hair, P.J., before we start to the plan.

其中一項，我認為我們做得非常好，就是我們設計了那個植物，我們可以採用該設計並複制它，複製它，複製它。因此，我們整合的佔地面積和設計，可能需要我們 15 個月才能建造另一個工廠。我認為當你看到這一點時，我認為我們可能會更加認真地考慮這一點，尤其是對於歐洲，這樣我們就可以很好地利用這個機會。但是建造了一個工廠然後只需要復制它，這比第一次做要簡單得多。在我們開始計劃之前，我曾經有一個完整的頭髮，P.J.。

And our next question comes from Eric Stine with Craig-Hallum.

我們的下一個問題來自 Eric Stine 和 Craig-Hallum。

So all the talk of the PTC and cost of hydrogen coming down, I know something that you've talked about for years is potentially expanding to smaller locations for materials handling. Just wondering what your thoughts are. Is that still an objective? And would that -- or how would that expand the market opportunity?

因此，所有關於 PTC 和氫氣成本下降的討論，我知道你多年來一直在談論的事情可能會擴展到更小的材料處理地點。只是想知道你的想法是什麼。這仍然是一個目標嗎？那會 - 或者這將如何擴大市場機會？

And I don't talk about this much, Eric. But the acquisition of ACT and the trailers -- having controllers that are trailers actually makes smaller hydrogen facilities simpler. It reduces the cost of infrastructure, and we have done smaller sites and we're beginning to do more. And we do see that the combination of lower hydrogen cost, simpler on-site hydrogen infrastructure where it becomes much easier just to do swap outs of trailers, and you then think about our regional activity.

埃里克，我不會談論太多。但收購 ACT 和拖車——擁有拖車控制器實際上使較小的氫氣設施變得更簡單。它降低了基礎設施的成本，我們已經完成了較小的站點，並且我們開始做更多的事情。而且我們確實看到了較低的氫氣成本，更簡單的現場氫氣基礎設施的結合，只需更換拖車就變得更加容易，然後您就可以考慮我們的區域活動。

Jose and his team actually have quietly implemented a few of those. So we do think that's a great opportunity. And the fact that the fuel, which has dominated the cost, now will be significantly lower is a real, real benefit.

Jose 和他的團隊實際上已經悄悄地實施了其中的一些。所以我們確實認為這是一個很好的機會。一直以來主導成本的燃料現在將顯著降低這一事實是一個真正的、真正的好處。

And any thoughts on how that expands the market opportunity? Might be a tough question.

關於如何擴大市場機會的任何想法？可能是一個棘手的問題。

So I think at the plug symposium, Jose pointed out, the path to how that business could be a $3 billion to $4 billion business opportunity with smaller scale. And we really had that begin to ramp in the '25, '26 time frame. We haven't done any new projections. But obviously, when you can think about what Jose was pointing at and with the lower cost of hydrogen, you could see that being pulled in. That's a real good question.

因此，我認為在插頭研討會上，何塞指出，該業務如何成為規模較小的 30 億至 40 億美元的商機。我們真的在 25 年、26 年的時間框架內開始加速。我們還沒有做任何新的預測。但很明顯，當您考慮何塞所指的以及氫氣成本較低時，您會看到它被拉進來了。這是一個非常好的問題。

Got it. That's helpful. And maybe just last 1 for me. In the release, you mentioned 2 pedestal customers in Europe that you are targeting. Just wondering if you can give any details there, whether it's potential timing, size, et cetera.

知道了。這很有幫助。也許對我來說只是最後一個。在該版本中，您提到了您的目標是歐洲的 2 個基座客戶。只是想知道你是否可以在那裡提供任何細節，無論是潛在的時間、規模等。

Yes. We're in the final, final stages. And I was hoping -- I've actually been watching my phone to see if I could say anything. But we do have -- we've targeted 3 pedestal customers for this year. I would expect all those will be announced by -- before we speak in the fourth quarter; 2 in Europe, 1 in the United States, Eric.

是的。我們正處於最後的最後階段。我希望——我實際上一直在看我的手機，看看我能不能說點什麼。但我們確實有——今年我們針對 3 個基座客戶。我希望所有這些都將在我們第四季度發言之前公佈；歐洲 2 個，美國 1 個，Eric。

Yes. And I think that the comment I made about us really looking more European. In fact, we have probably in Europe today, over 300 people has really made a big difference in being able to convince customers we're serious.

是的。我認為我對我們所做的評論看起來更像歐洲人。事實上，我們今天在歐洲可能已經有 300 多人在能夠說服客戶我們是認真的方面確實發揮了巨大的作用。

And our next question comes from Chris Souther with B. Riley.

我們的下一個問題來自 Chris Souther 和 B. Riley。

Can you maybe talk a little bit about the $15 billion electrolyzer sales funnel? Curious if you could frame the activity by geography and maybe the time line customers are looking for potential deliveries. And curious, does the PTC potentially change your strategy within the U.S. around electrolyzer sales versus owning the infrastructure yourselves?

您能否談談價值 150 億美元的電解槽銷售漏斗？好奇您是否可以按地理位置以及客戶正在尋找潛在交付的時間線來構建活動。好奇的是，PTC 是否可能會改變您在美國圍繞電解槽銷售而不是自己擁有基礎設施的策略？

Yes, a really good question. So Chris, probably 70%, 80% of that funnel today is Europe and the Middle East, and that is the heart of the funnel. There are -- just to give you a feel, there is about just for our smaller 5-megawatt system, there's over 350 opportunities in our funnel. Everything from bottle manufacturing, which you wouldn't think a lot about, but folks are looking to run their furnaces with a percent of hydrogen to concrete manufacturing, the steel manufacturing.

是的，一個非常好的問題。所以克里斯，今天這個漏斗的 70%、80% 可能是歐洲和中東，這就是漏斗的核心。有——只是為了給你一個感覺，大約只是為了我們較小的 5 兆瓦系統，我們的漏斗中有超過 350 個機會。從瓶子製造（您不會想太多，但人們希望用一定百分比的氫氣運行他們的熔爐）到混凝土製造（鋼鐵製造）的一切。

There's a lot of smaller projects that, quite honestly, are easier to deploy rapidly because you don't have essentially, they're self-contained systems. And most of our shipments, which will be about $140 million of electrolyzers in the second half will be like 5-megawatt containers.

坦率地說，有很多較小的項目更容易快速部署，因為您基本上沒有，它們是獨立的系統。我們的大部分出貨量，即下半年大約 1.4 億美元的電解槽，將像 5 兆瓦的集裝箱一樣。

I think this time next year when we report the third quarter, I suspect about 30% to 45% of our revenue will be coming from our electrolyzer business. And I think by 2025, it could be as much of as that.

我認為明年這個時候當我們報告第三季度時，我懷疑我們大約 30% 到 45% 的收入將來自我們的電解槽業務。我認為到 2025 年，可能會達到這個程度。

Okay. And then the PTC potentially change the strategy within the U.S., maybe around selling versus building out the infrastructure yourselves? Or would you kind of just take the potential growth of the market as opportunity to do both?

好的。然後 PTC 可能會改變美國境內的戰略，可能是圍繞銷售而不是自己構建基礎設施？或者你會只是把市場的潛在增長當作機會來做這兩件事？

Really good question, Chris. And I have -- I mean, this management team has been thinking about that question a good deal. I think you could end up in circumstances where you could build a hydrogen plant to support a fertilizer facility, own a portion of that plant and be able to generate liquid hydrogen to support our customers.

真的很好的問題，克里斯。我有 - 我的意思是，這個管理團隊一直在考慮這個問題。我認為你最終可能會建立一個氫工廠來支持化肥設施，擁有該工廠的一部分並能夠產生液態氫來支持我們的客戶。

And without going into great detail, we actually see that with the proliferation of our electrolyzer business, we may develop a different model for partnerships and building some of the plants, which as I mentioned -- as we mentioned in the letter, could help us expand much more rapidly with partners.

在沒有詳細說明的情況下，我們實際上看到，隨著我們電解器業務的擴散，我們可能會開發一種不同的合作模式並建造一些工廠，正如我在信中提到的那樣，這可以幫助我們與合作夥伴一起更快地擴展。

I was in a meeting today with someone looking to build a 1 gigawatt electrolyzer plant here in Texas. And one of the discussions we had was, could we own a portion of that plant so we could use as part of our offtake. It would reduce, obviously, our capital cost and provide us an opportunity to really expand and grow more rapidly. So the answer to your question is we have been giving that a lot of thought.

我今天在與一個想在德克薩斯州建造一座 1 吉瓦電解廠的人開會。我們進行的討論之一是，我們是否可以擁有該工廠的一部分，以便我們可以將其用作我們承購的一部分。顯然，它會降低我們的資本成本，並為我們提供真正擴大和更快增長的機會。所以你的問題的答案是我們已經考慮了很多。

(Operator Instructions) Our next question comes from Sameer Joshi with H.C. Wainwright.

（操作員說明）我們的下一個問題來自與 H.C. 的 Sameer Joshi。溫賴特。

The chart that you have in your letter on Page 3, does that take into account a delivered cost of hydrogen? Or does it assume localized production?

您在第 3 頁的信中的圖表，是否考慮了氫氣的交付成本？還是假設本地化生產？

I'll let Sanjay take that. I'm just going to add, it doesn't really matter if you're delivering gray hydrogen or green hydrogen, the delivery costs are going to be the same. But go ahead, Sanjay.

我會讓桑傑接受。我只是要補充一點，無論你是交付灰氫還是綠氫，交付成本都是一樣的。但是，繼續，桑傑。

That's right, Andy. But Sameer, that is really on site, right? So that does not take into consideration the delivery cost that chart itself.

沒錯，安迪。但是Sameer，那真的是在現場，對吧？所以這並沒有考慮到圖表本身的交付成本。

Got it. Okay. And then maybe this one for Paul. Can you just let us know what is happening with the inventory buildup over the last 2 quarters? Is that like planned inventory buildup? Or is that some delay in sales?

知道了。好的。然後也許這個是給保羅的。你能告訴我們過去兩個季度庫存增加的情況嗎？這就像計劃的庫存積累嗎？還是銷售延遲？

Yes. It's really anticipation for the second half. I mean, if you look at the sales as we've seen historically, we do about 1/3 in the first half, and we do 2/3 in the second half. It's going to be -- we're going to do more sales in the second half than we did almost -- well, all of last year. So it's a big push. We're ramping up new facilities and production to support that as well as what we anticipate after in the first part of next year.

是的。下半場真是讓人期待。我的意思是，如果你看一下我們歷史上看到的銷售額，我們在上半年做大約 1/3，我們在下半年做 2/3。這將是——我們將在下半年做比我們幾乎做的更多的銷售——嗯，去年全年。所以這是一個很大的推動。我們正在增加新的設施和生產以支持這一點以及我們在明年上半年之後的預期。

So that's -- I don't see that build continuing on in the second half. I think it will temper, we know it will temper, but it's really driven towards all that growth that we're building for to deliver in the second half.

所以那是 - 我認為下半場不會繼續建立下去。我認為它會緩和，我們知道它會緩和，但它確實推動了我們在下半年實現的所有增長。

Understood. And then last one, also maybe for Paul. On the SG&A sequential increase has been almost $15 million, $16 million. Should we see this level over the next few quarters? Or do you expect further increases in SG&A?

明白了。然後是最後一個，也可能是給保羅的。在 SG&A 上，連續增加了近 1500 萬美元，1600 萬美元。我們應該在接下來的幾個季度看到這個水平嗎？還是您預計 SG&A 會進一步增加？

No. It's -- there was some -- I think I gave a number for the beginning of the year of $100 million to $110 million per quarter. I think this quarter was a little heavier just because of the Microsoft programs and some other new product launches. But I think that $100 million to $110 million is a good proxy for as we move forward.

不。這是——有一些——我想我在年初給出的數字是每季度 1 億到 1.1 億美元。我認為本季度由於微軟計劃和其他一些新產品的推出而稍微重一些。但我認為 1 億到 1.1 億美元是我們前進的一個很好的代表。

Our next question comes from Ameet Thakkar with BMO.

我們的下一個問題來自 BMO 的 Ameet Thakkar。

Just real quick on the production kind of outlook of 500 tons per day kind of exit rate in 2025. Should we think about all of that as being kind of in the U.S.? Or is that going to be kind of global? Just kind of thinking about how the PTCs might kind of flow to the bottom line?

對 2025 年每天 500 噸的生產前景和退出率來說真的很快。我們是否應該將所有這些都視為在美國的一種？或者這會是全球性的嗎？只是想一想 PTC 可能會如何流入底線？

I'm going to let Sanjay take that one.

我要讓桑傑拿走那個。

Thank you, Andy. So I mean, it does -- we've mentioned this in the prior calls as well, that 500 tons is really the number in North America. And by 2028, we said we want to be 1,000 tons, and that actually includes Europe as well. But you do bring up a good point, is there an opportunity for that 500 tons to be potentially higher given some of the activity we have going on in Europe. The answer to that is yes, but that 500 tons number is strictly referring to North American production by end of 2025.

謝謝你，安迪。所以我的意思是，確實如此——我們在之前的電話會議中也提到了這一點，500 噸確實是北美的數字。到 2028 年，我們說我們希望達到 1000 噸，這實際上也包括歐洲。但是你確實提出了一個很好的觀點，考慮到我們在歐洲進行的一些活動，這 500 噸是否有可能更高。答案是肯定的，但這個 500 噸的數字嚴格指的是到 2025 年底的北美產量。

Okay. Super. And then just now that you have a kind of line of sight on the PTC. I think you guys had talked about kind of looking for offtakers for about 70% of very green hydrogen production, the PTC kind of helps, I guess, seemingly kind of derisk some of this as well. Are you guys still thinking about that 70% level? Or would you kind of willing to kind of keep more production for yourselves? Are you looking to maybe do kind of the opposite and actually ramp up percentage scrap takers?

好的。極好的。然後剛才您對 PTC 有了一種視線。我想你們已經談到了為大約 70% 的非常綠色的氫氣生產尋找承購商，我猜 PTC 有點幫助，似乎也有點在嘲笑這其中的一些。你們還在想那70%的水平嗎？或者你會願意為自己保留更多的生產嗎？您是否希望做相反的事情並實際增加廢品接受者的百分比？

Yes. So isn't that a great question, I mean, so a couple of points to highlight on that, right? One, I think -- so I just thought it's an important point to note here, which is with PTC, one other thing that it also does is capital formation, right? So that's another big benefit that we will get from source of financing type of capital that comes in, structure of capital.

是的。所以這不是一個很好的問題，我的意思是，有幾點需要強調，對吧？第一，我認為——所以我只是認為這是需要注意的重要一點，即 PTC，它還做的另一件事是資本形成，對嗎？因此，這是我們將從融資類型的資金來源，資本結構中獲得的另一大好處。

Right now, most of our investment has been largely focused on all equity investment. That's another added benefit that you will see as you go forward. But look, and I think that's what we're going through right now. But I think our focus is really, we want to make sure that first and foremost priority, it hasn't changed for us, right? We want to make sure that our customers are taken care of.

目前，我們的大部分投資主要集中在所有股權投資上。這是您在前進時會看到的另一個額外好處。但是看，我認為這就是我們現在正在經歷的事情。但我認為我們的重點確實是，我們要確保首要任務，它對我們來說沒有改變，對吧？我們希望確保我們的客戶得到照顧。

Obviously, our pedestal customer, we want to make sure that they never run out of hydrogen. We want to make sure that we're adding more customers to that mix. But -- we really haven't changed the view on that 70% loading of the plant at this point in time. But as Andy touched on some of the opportunities that we're starting to see in the stationery market, that can really, really drive the demand for our hydrogen for some of our customers, and that would make that we only load some of these plants for 50% instead of 70%, but that's TBD at this point in time. We really haven't changed that view. But that number certainly is not going to go from being 70% of trying to sell out the entire plant given what we're seeing here.

顯然，我們的基座客戶，我們希望確保他們永遠不會用完氫氣。我們想確保我們在這個組合中增加了更多的客戶。但是——我們目前確實沒有改變對工廠 70% 負載的看法。但正如安迪談到我們開始在文具市場看到的一些機會，這真的可以推動我們的一些客戶對氫氣的需求，這將使我們只裝載其中一些工廠為 50% 而不是 70%，但目前是待定。我們真的沒有改變這種看法。但考慮到我們在這裡看到的情況，這個數字肯定不會超過試圖賣掉整個工廠的 70%。

Next question comes from Kashy Harrison with Piper Sandler.

下一個問題來自 Kashy Harrison 和 Piper Sandler。

So I was hoping if you could maybe just walk us through your margin expectations for the rest of the year. Gross margin, please?

所以我希望你能不能告訴我們你對今年剩餘時間的利潤率預期。請問毛利率？

Yes. Well, the good news is it's going to be heavily concentrated with equipment. If you look at the mix of sales and the growth that we're experiencing. So I would say, we're definitely going to see margin progression. And I think it will -- even in the fourth quarter, it will move into positive range and could even hit double digits depending on final mix.

是的。好消息是它將高度集中在設備上。如果你看看我們正在經歷的銷售和增長的組合。所以我想說，我們肯定會看到保證金的進步。而且我認為它會 - 即使在第四季度，它也會進入正數範圍，甚至可能達到兩位數，具體取決於最終組合。

There's a couple of big things happening. We're ramping -- as Andy mentioned, we're moving quickly to ramp the electrolyzer sales going from kind of scaling the plant is first half to max production in the short term, that's a big step function change.

有幾件大事正在發生。我們正在加速——正如安迪所說，我們正在迅速提高電解槽的銷售量，從上半年的工廠規模擴大到短期內的最大產量，這是一個很大的功能變化。

The other 2 things. The fuel and the service, we continue to make big progress. But those -- in fact, in service, in particular, was -- today, I was working with the teams. It's really impressive some of the things we've been doing, including some of the enhancements of the field. We've seen, in some cases, 70% part reductions.

其他 2 件事。燃料和服務，我們繼續取得重大進展。但是那些——事實上，尤其是在服務中——今天，我正在與團隊一起工作。我們一直在做的一些事情確實令人印象深刻，包括該領域的一些增強。我們已經看到，在某些情況下，零件減少了 70%。

So we're starting to see that benefit really pay off. We think that will start paying off more in the second half, but you'll see a bigger step function as we move into next year. And then the fuel, as we talked about, really kind of kicking in first part of next year as we start launching those facilities and we start -- and we play out with PTC. So progression through the year, but big step function changes in '23 as some of those big events start to play out.

所以我們開始看到這種好處真的得到了回報。我們認為這將在下半年開始獲得更多回報，但隨著我們進入明年，您會看到更大的階梯函數。然後，正如我們所談到的，當我們開始啟動這些設施時，燃料真的會在明年上半年開始發揮作用，我們開始 - 我們與 PTC 合作。因此，全年都有進展，但隨著一些重大事件的開始，23 年的大步函數發生了變化。

That's great color. And then it sounds like you have some new pedestal customers coming, which is great. But I was curious what you're hearing from your customers surrounding the slowdown in the global economy. Do you think that might temper demand for -- on the material handling side? Or are you still getting positive indication from your pedestal customers that they're ready to continue to grow as you think about 2023.

這顏色真好。然後聽起來你有一些新的基座客戶來了，這很棒。但我很好奇您從您的客戶那裡聽到的關於全球經濟放緩的消息。你認為這可能會緩和對材料處理方面的需求嗎？或者，您是否仍然從您的基座客戶那裡得到積極的信號，表明他們已準備好在您考慮 2023 年時繼續增長。

Yes. Good question, Kashy. I would say this, we have 2 advantages. One is that we are adding new customers that can help mitigate any slowdown that could occur. I think the second item too, is that we haven't really seen -- we may have seen slowdown at one customers and upticks and other customers.

是的。好問題，卡西。我想說的是，我們有兩個優勢。一是我們正在增加新客戶，以幫助緩解可能發生的任何放緩。我認為第二個項目也是我們還沒有真正看到的——我們可能已經看到一個客戶的放緩和其他客戶的增長。

Sometimes during these times where it's difficult to acquire labor, it's difficult to find ways to reduce cost. You actually have an advantage in the selling process. So I can tell you one of our big customers who I've worked with for years is making the commitment to really dramatically change over the remnants of the older technology of batteries to move to fuel cells.

有時在這些難以獲得勞動力的時期，很難找到降低成本的方法。您實際上在銷售過程中具有優勢。因此，我可以告訴你，我們與我合作多年的一位大客戶正在承諾真正顯著改變舊電池技術的殘餘，以轉向燃料電池。

So we haven't -- what I've seen is some sloshing around but I have not seen a reduction. And I think that having lived through these tough times before, I've always noticed that you're actually in a much better position if you're in a business that is has a smaller market share of the overall opportunity plus your selling cost savings. That's a pretty powerful message when things are slowing down and laborers are tough to tough to acquire.

所以我們沒有 - 我看到的是一些晃動，但我沒有看到減少。而且我認為，在經歷過這些艱難時期之後，我一直注意到，如果您所在的企業在整體機會中所佔的市場份額較小，而且您的銷售成本節省了，那麼您實際上處於更好的位置.當事情正在放緩並且勞動力難以獲得時，這是一個非常強大的信息。

I appreciate it. If I could just sneak one last one in. I was wondering if you could maybe just give us a refresh on your CapEx outlook moving forward as you think about the U.S., European hydrogen build-out. Wondering if you have any good rule of thumb for maybe thinking about CapEx on a per unit basis just for modeling purposes?

我很感激。如果我能偷偷溜進去最後一個。我想知道你是否可以在考慮美國、歐洲氫建設的同時，讓我們刷新一下你的資本支出前景。想知道您是否有任何好的經驗法則可以僅出於建模目的考慮以單位為基礎的資本支出？

Yes. Well, the bulk of our CapEx is in the green hydrogen platform. So we do have, as Andy mentioned, a number -- a couple of different facilities we're building out for production capacity expansion. As Andy mentioned, hopefully, the PTC drives the need for even more. We'll see how that plays. But what we've talked about is kind of $1 billion a year is a good proxy. These plants are large scale. And to get to the 500 tons, it's in that range of about $1 billion a year in terms of run rate.

是的。好吧，我們的大部分資本支出都在綠色氫平台上。因此，正如安迪所提到的，我們確實有一些——我們正在建設幾個不同的設施來擴大產能。正如安迪所提到的，希望 PTC 能夠推動更多的需求。我們將看看它是如何發揮作用的。但我們談到的是每年 10 億美元是一個很好的代理。這些工廠規模很大。要達到 500 噸，就運行速度而言，它每年大約在 10 億美元的範圍內。

I think Sanjay, we -- you, Paul and I had a great conversation about why the PTC is going to make it easier to get capital. You want to comment?

我認為 Sanjay、我們——你、Paul 和我就 PTC 為什麼會更容易獲得資金進行了一場精彩的對話。你想發表評論嗎？

Happy to do that, Kashy right? So I think -- so Paul, just to add to what you said here, right? I think with the sort of the PTC, it will probably likely follow what happens to the capital formation in the solar and wind industry, right?

很高興這樣做，Kashy 對嗎？所以我想——所以保羅，只是為了補充你在這裡所說的，對吧？我認為對於 PTC，它可能會跟隨太陽能和風能行業的資本形成，對吧？

In the beginning, it was all about folks who are thinking about 10-megawatt solar project, equity financing. But all of a sudden, with the ITC and solar and PTC and wind, capital structure changing a way where equity was really only 20% of the capital stack, #1.

一開始，這都是關於那些正在考慮 10 兆瓦太陽能項目、股權融資的人。但是突然之間，隨著 ITC 和太陽能、PTC 和風能的出現，資本結構發生了變化，股權實際上只佔資本堆棧的 20%，#1。

#2, return expectation on that equity went from mid-teens to single digit, thereby reducing the cost of renewable electricity, levelized cost of that electricity. We see exactly same pattern unfolding here with this PTC for green hydrogen as well. One, source of capital, type of capital, availability of capital will dramatically go up, and we wouldn't actually be in a position where we have to fund all this just with higher equity capital. It can be back leverage, it can be tax equity, all forms of capital will really help us. One, accelerate our build-out. And two, keep driving the cost of green hydrogen down, very similar to what happened to the solar industry in the last decade.

#2，該股本的回報預期從十幾歲到個位數，從而降低了可再生電力的成本，平準了電力的成本。我們在這裡也看到了與綠色氫的這種 PTC 完全相同的模式。第一，資本來源、資本類型、資本可用性將急劇上升，我們實際上不會處於必須用更高的股權資本為所有這些提供資金的境地。可以是反向槓桿，可以是稅收股權，所有形式的資本都會真正幫助我們。一，加快我們的建設。第二，繼續降低綠色氫的成本，這與過去十年太陽能行業發生的情況非常相似。

Our next question comes from [Sharif Amagrabi] with BTIG.

我們的下一個問題來自 BTIG 的 [Sharif Amagrabi]。

Great. So under the Inflation Reduction Act, PTC aside, is Plug able to take advantage of domestic content requirements for U.S. Steel for additional subsidies?

偉大的。那麼，根據《通貨膨脹降低法案》，除了 PTC，Plug 是否能夠利用美國鋼鐵的國內含量要求來獲得額外補貼？

And just to make it 2 parts, if so, does that equipment need to be tied to a project like the 120-megawatt plant you just announced in Texas?

只是為了把它變成兩部分，如果是這樣，那麼該設備是否需要與您剛剛在德克薩斯州宣布的 120 兆瓦工廠這樣的項目聯繫起來？

[Sharif], there's a lot of work. And I would say this, one, the PTC will be able to capture the $3 a kilogram tax credit. Plug has a great deal of domestic content in our products today. And like most folks, not only to meet these kind of requirements, but also to shorten our supply chain. We're doing more and more domestically.

[Sharif]，有很多工作要做。我想說的是，PTC 將能夠獲得每公斤 3 美元的稅收抵免。 Plug在我們今天的產品中有大量的國產內容。和大多數人一樣，不僅要滿足這些要求，還要縮短我們的供應鏈。我們在國內做的越來越多。

So we continue to take steps to make sure. And look, this is not unique to the United States. We spent a lot of time with HYVIA looking at European content and substituting European content. So we are looking at ways to maximize our domestic content to make sure we can -- where it makes sense for our shareholders, take maximum advantage of what's most profitable to Plug.

因此，我們繼續採取措施確保。看，這不是美國獨有的。我們花了很多時間與 HYVIA 一起研究歐洲內容並替換歐洲內容。因此，我們正在尋找最大化我們國內內容的方法，以確保我們能夠——在對我們的股東有意義的地方，最大限度地利用對 Plug 最有利可圖的東西。

Next quarter comes from Tom Curran with Seaport Research Partners.

下一季度來自 Seaport Research Partners 的 Tom Curran。

Andy, across the Atlantic, we've recently heard some prominent industry voices, seasoned utility and energy executives express alarm that the European Commission isn't being realistic on the demand side for green hydrogen. Either with regards to which applications will prove economically viable and scalable or about how urgently they're doing enough to ensure announced projects actually make it to FID. You just shared some encouraging updates on the HYVIA JV in hydrogen mobility, the stationary power TAM, progress on these 2 hoped for incremental pedestal customers for [NH]. But could you just take a step back and speak to these concerns? At a broader higher level, what is your view on the pace at which key infrastructure projects for adoption usage in Europe are reaching FID?

安迪，在大西洋彼岸，我們最近聽到了一些著名的行業聲音，經驗豐富的公用事業和能源高管表示警告說，歐盟委員會在綠色氫的需求方面並不現實。無論是關於哪些應用程序將被證明在經濟上是可行和可擴展的，或者是關於他們是否迫切需要確保已宣布的項目真正進入 FID。您剛剛分享了 HYVIA 合資公司在氫移動、固定電源 TAM 方面的一些令人鼓舞的更新，這兩個方面的進展希望為 [NH] 增加基座客戶。但是你能退後一步談談這些擔憂嗎？在更廣泛的更高層面上，您對歐洲採用使用的關鍵基礎設施項目達到 FID 的速度有何看法？

So Tom, first and foremost, they are going to be projects that make it to the finish line and projects that don't -- no doubt about it. I mean that's just a reality. So I'll take a look at Denmark, where I've spent some time with leadership there. They are serious about building 30 gigawatts of wind power, with the majority of that really headed towards generating a green hydrogen to support Europe. They are serious. And I've met with the former Head of Parliament in Denmark, who's deeply involved in building the pipeline from Northern Denmark into Germany, that serious.

所以湯姆，首先，他們將是能夠到達終點線的項目和沒有的項目——毫無疑問。我的意思是這只是一個現實。所以我會看看丹麥，我在那裡度過了一段時間的領導。他們非常重視建設 30 吉瓦的風力發電，其中大部分真正用於生產綠色氫氣以支持歐洲。他們是認真的。我曾與丹麥前議會主席會面，他深入參與了從丹麥北部到德國的管道建設，非常嚴肅。

There are projects which I sit there and say, that's not real. There's others which have a combination of government support industrial support application support, like HYVIA. Not to be controversial, I also would suggest that maybe some which are part of the old energy world may not want this to move as rapid.

有些項目我坐在那裡說，那不是真的。還有其他的結合了政府支持的產業支持應用支持，比如HYVIA。不要引起爭議，我還建議，也許舊能源世界的一部分可能不希望這種情況如此迅速地發展。

Right. And I thought you'd appreciate an opportunity to respond directly to some of those doubts and worries.

正確的。我想你會很高興有機會直接回應其中的一些疑慮和擔憂。

And then, Paul, when it comes to the remainder of the territory that services needs to cover to reach breakeven by year-end, what should be the key drivers from a negative 32% gross margin for 2Q to breakeven as we exit this year?

然後，保羅，當談到服務需要覆蓋的其餘領域以在年底前達到盈虧平衡時，從第二季度的負 32% 毛利率到今年退出盈虧平衡的關鍵驅動因素應該是什麼？

Yes. Labor leverage definitely will help. But to be honest with you, the biggest impact we're seeing is reducing the touch points, and that's with the reliability improvements. And so we've launched different equations from different components and stacks and other configurations, new software upgrades, a whole lot of different solutions that both are going out into the new units that are getting deployed. So we're already seeing out of the gate better performance. And more importantly, we're able to retrofit and apply to the installed fleet. And some of those improvements, as I mentioned earlier, we're seeing dramatic reduction in parts. So I think it's the combination of -- it's that and the labor leverage. I mean we're -- next year could be 150 sites. So yes -- what's that?

是的。勞動力槓桿肯定會有所幫助。但老實說，我們看到的最大影響是減少接觸點，這就是可靠性的提高。因此，我們從不同的組件、堆棧和其他配置、新的軟件升級、大量不同的解決方案推出了不同的方程式，它們都將用於正在部署的新單元中。所以我們已經看到了更好的性能。更重要的是，我們能夠改造並應用於已安裝的車隊。正如我之前提到的，其中一些改進是我們看到零件的顯著減少。所以我認為這是——它和勞動力槓桿的結合。我的意思是我們——明年可能有 150 個站點。所以是的 - 那是什麼？

Plus more hardware.

加上更多的硬件。

Yes. And so it's -- we're going to see that continue to progress, but you're going to see some pretty good traction here very shortly as those start to play out.

是的。所以它 - 我們將看到它繼續取得進展，但是隨著這些開始發揮作用，你很快就會在這裡看到一些相當不錯的牽引力。

As well as the accruing benefits of that ever-expanding newly installed base of the latest generation stacks, right?

以及不斷擴大的最新一代堆棧的新安裝基礎所帶來的好處，對吧？

Yes, absolutely, exactly. And leverage on supply chain to leverage on the labor across the board, absolutely.

是的，絕對，完全正確。並且絕對可以利用供應鏈來充分利用勞動力。

Our next question comes from Joseph Spak with RBC Capital Markets.

我們的下一個問題來自 RBC Capital Markets 的 Joseph Spak。

Andy, you mentioned a couple of times you think Plug will be able to hold on to the PTC. I'm just -- I just want to clarify, do you mean eventually or even initially, because if you're not passing the PTC through, how do you get to sort of initial competitiveness on green hydrogen?

安迪，您曾多次提到您認為 Plug 能夠保住 PTC。我只是 - 我只是想澄清一下，你的意思是最終還是最初，因為如果你沒有通過 PTC，你如何獲得綠色氫的初步競爭力？

I think when you take a step back, there's different -- good question, Joe. There's -- the electrolyzer business, obviously, our customers take advantage of it. As I mentioned, I already have contracts with customers for hydrogen, Joe, that we can take full advantage of. And the third item, I did mention in my comments that we would be in a position where we'd be sharing some of the PTC with other customers. And I think that's how the mix comes out. And I thought that's what I said, but it's been a long call.

我認為當您退後一步時，情況會有所不同-- 好問題，喬。有 - 電解槽業務，顯然，我們的客戶利用它。正如我所提到的，我已經與客戶簽訂了氫氣合同，喬，我們可以充分利用這些合同。第三項，我在評論中確實提到我們將與其他客戶共享一些 PTC。我認為這就是混合的方式。我認為這就是我所說的，但這是一個很長的電話。

It has. I guess maybe secondarily, I don't want to -- I know this is very early days and preliminary. But like functionally, how like -- I get the math on this $500 million of incremental cash flow, right? But like how does it actually work? Because you're not a taxpayer right now. So I think you need to set up some sort of entity to actually get that cash and maybe do some tax refining.

它有。我想可能是次要的，我不想——我知道這還處於早期階段和初步階段。但就像在功能上一樣，我對這 5 億美元的增量現金流進行了數學計算，對嗎？但是，它實際上是如何工作的？因為你現在不是納稅人。所以我認為你需要建立某種實體來實際獲得現金，也許還需要進行一些稅收調整。

I'll cut you off really quick for the first 5 years, it's direct pay.

前 5 年我會很快切斷你的聯繫，這是直接工資。

It is. Okay. So then is that actually -- so that $500 million would actually be revenue, not just sort of a cash inflow from selling credits or whatnot?

這是。好的。那麼這實際上是 - 所以 5 億美元實際上是收入，而不僅僅是來自出售信用或其他什麼的現金流入？

I actually think it's -- correct me if I'm wrong, it's a reduction of costs.

我實際上認為這是——如果我錯了，請糾正我，這是降低成本。

It's a reduction in costs. Okay.

這是成本的降低。好的。

And then lastly, I guess, maybe the big elephant in the room, but permitting, right, which can obviously be very difficult and take longer. Is that the biggest risk to timing that you see? And maybe if you could provide any sort of color on how you see that progressing?

最後，我想，也許是房間裡的大象，但如果允許的話，對，這顯然非常困難並且需要更長的時間。這是你看到的最大的時間風險嗎？也許你能提供任何關於你如何看待進展的顏色？

I'll let the guy who deals with permitting every day answer that. Sanjay?

我會讓每天處理許可證的人回答這個問題。桑傑？

So again, it's like any development business. Joe, right, as you can imagine. So look, I mean, there are areas where we're able to do things faster than expected, right? There is a situation where things can actually take a bit longer than expected. But what I would like to highlight here, though, is when you sort of think about when we're talking about 500 tons a day, it's not just a 500 tons opportunity, right? The opportunity is much larger than that.

再說一次，它就像任何開發業務一樣。喬，對，正如你想像的那樣。所以看，我的意思是，有些領域我們能夠比預期更快地做事，對吧？在某些情況下，事情實際上可能需要比預期更長的時間。但我想在這裡強調的是，當你想一想當我們談論每天 500 噸時，這不僅僅是 500 噸的機會，對吧？機會遠不止於此。

And look, and I think we also try to think about if plan A doesn't happen, how will our plan B and potentially plan C is going to get implemented here. to get to that goal. So needless to say, in light of some of the permitting dynamics, which is not going to go away. It's going to be real. It's going to be there. In some cases, it's better than we thought. In some cases, it might not be as good as we thought, but our funnel to get to that 500 tons is obviously much larger than that.

看，我認為我們也嘗試考慮如果計劃 A 沒有發生，我們的計劃 B 和潛在的計劃 C 將如何在這裡實施。達到那個目標。不用說，鑑於一些許可動態，這不會消失。這將是真實的。它會在那裡。在某些情況下，它比我們想像的要好。在某些情況下，它可能沒有我們想像的那麼好，但我們達到 500 噸的漏斗顯然比這要大得多。

Our next question comes from Praneeth Satish with Wells Fargo.

我們的下一個問題來自富國銀行的 Praneeth Satish。

And 2 quick questions for me. I guess the -- so the PTC will certainly help with green hydrogen adoption and cost. But I guess the other key variable for pricing is electrolyzer cost. So I'm just trying to understand the trajectory for electrolyzer prices. Do you think they'll fall as you improved manufacturing efficiencies? Or do you think the PTC has created so much demand that electrolyzer prices could hold steady?

和我的 2 個快速問題。我猜——所以 PTC 肯定會有助於綠色氫的採用和成本。但我想定價的另一個關鍵變量是電解槽成本。所以我只是想了解電解槽價格的走勢。你認為他們會隨著你提高製造效率而下降嗎？還是您認為 PTC 創造瞭如此多的需求，以至於電解槽價格可以保持穩定？

I can tell you with our plans today, 75% of it is the electrical feedstock. I mean I think that tells it all. So will electrolyze our price income costs come down? Absolutely. But it's so dominated by feedstock at cost that the key item is the output -- the PTC itself will dominate it.

我可以用我們今天的計劃告訴你，其中 75% 是電力原料。我的意思是我認為這說明了一切。那麼電解我們的價格收入成本會降下來嗎？絕對地。但它如此受原料成本的支配，以至於關鍵項目是產出——PTC 本身將佔據主導地位。

Got it. And you've talked about small green hydrogen facilities and the success there. But I guess I'm kind of wondering if you could talk through the puts and takes of going the other way and building large-scale green hydrogen facilities now with the PTC, making hydrogen prices lower, the market is a lot bigger.

知道了。你談到了小型綠色氫設施和那裡的成功。但我想我有點想知道你是否可以討論一下，現在與 PTC 一起走另一條路，建造大型綠色氫設施，使氫價格更低，市場更大。

So I guess does it make sense at some point to concentrate electrolyzer capacity and then start gasifying the hydrogen and moving it through pipe versus liquefying it? There's a lot of industrial demand in the Gulf Coast. There's a lot of pipeline capacity there. So it seems like a good fit, but curious for your thoughts.

所以我想在某個時候集中電解槽容量然後開始氣化氫氣並將其通過管道移動而不是液化它是否有意義？墨西哥灣沿岸有很多工業需求。那裡有很多管道容量。所以它看起來很合適，但對你的想法很好奇。

Yes, I'll give you -- I'm an engineer, so you're going to get a yes and yes answer. I think that -- I'll give you an example. We're dealing with 1 bottle manufacturer who has 80 bottling plants throughout the world. A 5-megawatt electrolyzer on-site is ideal for him to be able to produce green bottles to satisfy his end customers, which are the beverage makers.

是的，我會給你——我是一名工程師，所以你會得到一個是和是的答案。我認為——我給你舉個例子。我們正在與 1 家在全球擁有 80 家裝瓶廠的瓶子製造商打交道。現場的 5 兆瓦電解槽非常適合他生產綠色瓶子以滿足他的最終客戶，即飲料製造商。

Then in that case, and there's lots of applications like that, concrete manufacturing where you can see small scale. I'm a real believer in pipeline for hydrogen. I believe that the Infrastructure Bill for building out the hydrogen hubs, the best investments that can be made or building pipelines for hydrogen, which come off large-scale green hydrogen plants. The cost of those -- that hydrogen will be lower just because of scale of running and operating a plant doesn't change that dramatically. All those costs are increased by going smaller. In those cases, pipelines are ideal.

然後在那種情況下，有很多這樣的應用，你可以看到小規模的混凝土製造。我是氫氣管道的真正信徒。我相信建設氫樞紐的基礎設施法案，可以進行的最佳投資或建設來自大型綠色氫工廠的氫管道。那些成本——僅僅因為工廠的運行和運營規模而降低氫氣的成本並沒有顯著改變。所有這些成本都因變小而增加。在這些情況下，管道是理想的。

But I think today, we -- if you take a look at what we're doing with H2 Energy in Denmark, perfect opportunity where green hydrogen will be feeding a pipeline, which will be a public access pipeline for green hydrogen, no better way to do it. So -- but I think it really depends upon the application, the location and quite honestly, the time. Real good question. I am a big, big believer of pipeline, so.

但我認為，今天，如果你看看我們在丹麥使用 H2 Energy 所做的事情，這是一個完美的機會，綠色氫將成為管道，這將是綠色氫的公共接入管道，沒有更好的方法去做吧。所以——但我認為這真的取決於應用程序、位置，老實說，時間。真正的好問題。我是管道的忠實信徒，所以。

Our next question comes from Greg Wasikowski with Webber Research.

我們的下一個問題來自 Webber Research 的 Greg Wasikowski。

Just -- I'll keep it sure I'll keep it to one. And it's kind of a piggyback off of the last one here. So can you speak a little bit more on what you're seeing on the development of the hydrogen midstream as a whole? You just talked about pipelines, which we spoke about in the past being a little bit more of a future conversation, at least in scale. But does the PTC change your thoughts on that and/or other means of transporting larger amounts of hydrogen over longer distances?

只是 - 我會保持它肯定我會保持它一個。這有點像這裡最後一個的捎帶。那麼，您能否就您所看到的氫中游整體發展多說一點？你剛剛談到了管道，我們過去談到的更多是未來的對話，至少在規模上是這樣。但是，PTC 是否會改變您對這種和/或其他長距離運輸大量氫氣的方式的看法？

I'm going to turn it over to Sanjay. And -- but I'll just add, the lowest cost way to move hydrogen is pipeline.

我要把它交給桑傑。而且——但我要補充一點，運輸氫氣的成本最低的方式是管道。

Absolutely, Andy. So again, Greg, so we have a lot of activity going on in that front. So let me just give you a scenario, right? Think about the optimal wind location. where you can actually really be a very large-scale wind farm with a very high capacity factor and really get an optimal levelized cost of that wind electricity, which can actually be a very, very low number.

當然，安迪。再說一次，格雷格，所以我們在這方面有很多活動。所以讓我給你一個場景，對吧？考慮最佳風的位置。實際上，您實際上可以成為一個容量係數非常高的大型風電場，並真正獲得該風電的最佳平準化成本，這實際上可能是一個非常非常低的數字。

Then you have a large-scale electrolyzer plant, which is what we're doing for our customers, and we can do that for ourselves as well. So we are talking to some of the major midstream companies to think through what is that right volume what makes the economics work because you don't want to do a pipeline for a small amount of hydrogen and the economics doesn't work.

然後你有一個大型電解廠，這是我們為客戶做的事情，我們也可以為自己做。因此，我們正在與一些主要的中游公司進行討論，以思考什麼是合適的體積是什麼使經濟學起作用，因為你不想為少量氫氣做管道，而經濟學不起作用。

So the way this is probably going to unfold is no different than the existing energy infrastructure, right? Large-scale renewable facility large-scale electrolyzer, gaseous hydrogen, sent via the pipeline, so the economics gets really, really optimized. You can really take very large distances. And for the last-mile delivery to get to various customer, you probably would have liquid plans to supplement that network. That is going to unfold. We've got a lot of work going on there. We're then thinking through how do you do large scale storage in cavern and things like that. So stay tuned. Hopefully, we'll have more to talk about it going forward.

所以這可能會展開的方式與現有的能源基礎設施沒有什麼不同，對吧？大型可再生設施大型電解槽，氣態氫，通過管道輸送，因此經濟性得到了真正的優化。你真的可以走很遠的距離。對於到達不同客戶的最後一英里交付，您可能會有流動計劃來補充該網絡。這將展開。我們在那裡有很多工作要做。然後我們正在考慮如何在洞穴中進行大規模存儲以及類似的事情。所以請繼續關注。希望我們能在未來有更多的討論。

There are no further questions at this time. I'll hand the floor back to Andrew Marsh for closing remarks.

目前沒有其他問題。我將把發言權交還給 Andrew Marsh 來做閉幕詞。

So thank you, everyone, for hanging in there for 1 hour, 15 minutes, and I look forward to seeing you at the Plug Power Symposium. Our fourth symposium will be October 18 and 19 from our Rochester, New York gigafactory. This will be a hybrid event. So stay tuned for further event and registration details over the coming months. Thanks, everyone.

所以，謝謝大家，在這里呆了 1 小時 15 分鐘，我期待在 Plug Power Symposium 上見到你。我們的第四次研討會將於 10 月 18 日至 19 日在我們位於紐約羅切斯特的超級工廠舉行。這將是一個混合事件。因此，請繼續關注未來幾個月的更多活動和註冊詳情。感謝大家。

This concludes today's conference. All parties may disconnect. Have a good day.

今天的會議到此結束。各方都可以斷開連接。祝你有美好的一天。