庫力索法 (KLIC) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Greetings, and welcome to the Kulicke & Soffa Q1 2025 conference call and webcast. (Operator Instructions) As a reminder, this conference is being recorded.

大家好，歡迎參加 Kulicke & Soffa 2025 年第一季電話會議和網路廣播。（操作員指示）提醒一下，本次會議正在錄音。

It's now my pleasure to turn the call over to Senior Director of Investor Relations, Joe Elgindy. Please go ahead, Joe.

現在我很高興將電話轉給投資者關係高級總監喬·埃爾金迪 (Joe Elgindy)。請繼續，喬。

Welcome, everyone, to Kulicke & Soffa's fiscal first-quarter 2025 conference call. Fusen Chen, President and Chief Executive Officer; and Lester Wong, Chief Financial Officer, are also joining on today's call. Non-GAAP financial measures referenced today should be considered in addition to, not as a substitute for or in isolation from, our GAAP financial information. GAAP to non-GAAP reconciliation tables are included within the latest earnings release and earnings presentation. Both are available at investor.kns.com along with prepared remarks for today's call.

歡迎大家參加 Kulicke & Soffa 2025 財年第一季電話會議。陳福森，總裁兼執行長；和財務長 Lester Wong 也將參加今天的電話會議。今天引用的非 GAAP 財務指標應被視為我們的 GAAP 財務資訊的補充，而不是替代或孤立於其本身。最新的收益報告和收益介紹中包含了 GAAP 與非 GAAP 的對帳表。這兩份文件均可在 investor.kns.com 上查閱，同時也可查閱今天電話會議的準備好的發言稿。

In addition to historical statements, today's remarks will contain statements relating to future events and our future results. These statements are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 and are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause our actual results and financial condition to differ materially from the statements made today. For a complete discussion of the risks associated with Kulicke and Soffa that could affect our future results and financial condition, please refer to our recent and upcoming SEC filings, specifically the latest Form 10-K as well as the 8-K filed today.

除了歷史陳述之外，今天的評論還將包含與未來事件和我們未來結果有關的陳述。這些聲明是 1995 年私人證券訴訟改革法所定義的前瞻性聲明，受風險和不確定性的影響，可能導致我們的實際結果和財務狀況與今天的聲明有重大差異。有關 Kulicke 和 Soffa 所涉及的可能影響我們未來業績和財務狀況的風險的完整討論，請參閱我們最近和即將提交的 SEC 文件，特別是最新的 10-K 表格以及今天提交的 8-K 表格。

With that said, I would now like to turn the call over to Fusen Chen for the business overview. Please go ahead, Fusen.

話雖如此，我現在想將電話轉給陳福森，請他介紹業務概況。請繼續，Fusen。

Good morning, everyone. Over the past several quarters, our General Semiconductor and Automotive end market have shown signs of inventory and capacity digestions, and we continue to anticipate a gradual improvement in fiscal 2025. In parallel, we have continued to demonstrate technology leadership positions within the growing thermo-compression, and advanced dispense opportunities.

大家早安。在過去幾季中，我們的通用半導體和汽車終端市場已出現庫存和產能消化的跡象，我們預計 2025 財年將逐步改善。同時，我們繼續在不斷增長的熱壓和先進分配領域展示技術領導地位。

Visibility within our higher-volume Ball and Wedge markets is typically limited this time of year. Regardless, our core business remains in the late stage of a market downturn. While we continue to anticipate a return to broader capacity additions within the core Ball, Wedge, and APS businesses through fiscal 2025 due to improved field utilization rates, market trends and the reasonable industry growth expectations, we remain focused on what is within our control, primarily ongoing development, customer qualifications, and market adoption of our newest systems.

每年的這個時候，我們銷售較大的球桿和挖起桿市場中的能見度通常都比較有限。無論如何，我們的核心業務仍處於市場低迷的後期階段。儘管我們繼續預計到 2025 財年，由於現場利用率提高、市場趨勢和合理的行業增長預期，核心 Ball、Wedge 和 APS 業務的產能將重新增加，但我們仍然專注於我們能夠控制的領域，主要是持續開發、客戶資格和最新系統的市場採用。

Additionally, industry momentum with thermo-compression technology, continues to broaden, and we are extending our leadership through new offerings and customer engagements. Approximately three weeks ago, we shipped our latest Fluxless Thermo-Compression or FTC system in a new dual-head configuration to a key foundry customer. This system provides nearly twice the throughput as our existing production-proven FTC system, which was already qualified and already provides an additional value proposition for advanced logic customers within its single-head configuration.

此外，熱壓技術的產業發展勢頭持續擴大，我們正在透過新的產品和客戶參與擴大我們的領導地位。大約三週前，我們向一家重要的代工客戶運送了最新的無助焊劑熱壓或 FTC 系統，該系統採用了新的雙頭配置。該系統的吞吐量幾乎是我們現有經過生產驗證的 FTC 系統的兩倍，該系統已經通過認證，並且已經在其單頭配置中為高級邏輯客戶提供了額外的價值主張。

This new dual-head configuration will further extend value for advanced logic customers and also provide access into the high-bandwidth-memory market. Beyond this new dual-head system, we are aggressively developing a future panel-based platform, which will further extend the value of FTC. Of note, we are pleased to extend our FTC customer engagements, which now include a leading memory customer, in addition to our existing base of leading IDM, foundry, and OSAT customers.

這種新的雙頭配置將進一步為先進邏輯客戶帶來價值，並提供進入高頻寬記憶體市場的機會。除了這個新的雙頭系統之外，我們還在積極開發未來基於面板的平台，這將進一步擴展 FTC 的價值。值得注意的是，我們很高興擴大與 FTC 客戶的合作，除了現有的領先 IDM、代工廠和 OSAT 客戶群外，現在還包括一家領先的記憶體客戶。

This new memory engagement is supporting process development for future-generation HBM applications, leveraging our FTC leadership. FTC is positioned to enhance the future HBM process. providing critical performance, form-factor, and efficiency enhancements by significantly reducing pitch and increasing I/O density for future AI and cloud computing workloads.

這個新的記憶體專案將利用我們在 FTC 的領導地位，支援未來一代 HBM 應用的流程開發。FTC 致力於增強未來的 HBM 製程。透過大幅減少間距和增加 I/O 密度，為未來的 AI 和雲端運算工作負載提供關鍵的效能、外形和效率增強。

Last, the copper-to-copper TCB process is continuing to pick up momentum and is currently being reviewed by a leading IDM customer, in addition to our previously announced customer. Our copper-first solution provides hybrid benefits such as zero-die gap, ultra-fine pitch, and direct copper-to-copper interconnects without the licensing fees, front-end production requirements, or yield issues, which are associated with initial hybrid bonding technologies.

最後，銅對銅 TCB 製程正在繼續加速發展，除了我們先前宣布的客戶之外，目前還在接受一家領先的 IDM 客戶的審查。我們的銅優先解決方案提供了混合優勢，例如零晶片間隙、超細間距和直接銅對銅互連，而無需許可費用、前端生產要求或產量問題，這些都與初始混合鍵合技術有關。

These benefits are available today through our broadening FTC portfolio, which is well positioned to provide additional value for emerging advanced logic and advanced memory applications. This technology leadership in FTC is enhancing our position within the broader TCB market as well. We recently accepted orders from two new advanced packaging customers for several new APTURA systems.

如今，這些優勢可透過我們不斷擴大的 FTC 產品組合獲得，該產品組合能夠為新興的先進邏輯和先進記憶體應用提供額外的價值。FTC 中的技術領導地位也增強了我們在更廣泛的 TCB 市場中的地位。我們最近接受了兩個新的先進封裝客戶的幾項新 APTURA 系統的訂單。

We estimate the TAM for TCB in calendar year 2024 has exceeded $300 million, which represents a key market milestone for two significant reasons. First, it highlights TCB is comparable in annual revenue to the mature flip chip mass-reflow equipment market. Considering flip chip has been in high-volume production for over three decades, this milestone was reached relatively quickly for thermo-compression.

我們估計，2024 年 TCB 的 TAM 將超過 3 億美元，這代表著一個關鍵的市場里程碑，原因有二。首先，它凸顯了TCB的年收入與成熟的倒裝晶片大規模回流設備市場相當。考慮到倒裝晶片已大規模生產超過三十年，熱壓技術相對較快地達到了這一里程碑。

Second, TCB adds significant incremental value beyond traditional packaging techniques due to its ability to efficiently stack die, increase package-level-transistor density, and simplify the wafer-fabrication process. TCB technology has a long life ahead and is anticipated to grow significantly over the long-term. Over the coming years, we anticipate the broad TCB market to grow at a compound annual growth rate of 20% to 25%, with FTC growth expected to be materially faster over the coming years.

其次，由於TCB能夠有效地堆疊晶片、提高封裝級電晶體密度並簡化晶圓製造工藝，因此與傳統封裝技術相比，TCB具有顯著的增量價值。TCB 技術具有很長的使用壽命，預計長期內將實現顯著成長。在未來幾年，我們預計廣泛的 TCB 市場將以 20% 至 25% 的複合年增長率成長，而 FTC 的成長預計在未來幾年將大幅加速。

During fiscal 2025, we anticipate additional customers to move into higher-volume FTC production. The need for More-than-Moore-related packaging solutions are emerging rapidly, and we are excited to be leading this transition with our market-ready FTC solution. This broad industry evolution to more advanced chiplet-based packages is still in an early stage and is anticipated to play out over the long-term, driven by emerging artificial intelligence, cloud computing, and edge-device requirements.

在 2025 財年，我們預計會有更多客戶轉向更大批量的 FTC 生產。對超越摩爾定律的封裝解決方案的需求正在迅速湧現，我們很高興能夠透過我們已進入市場的 FTC 解決方案引領這一轉變。業界向更先進的基於小晶片的封裝的廣泛演進仍處於早期階段，預計在新興人工智慧、雲端運算和邊緣設備需求的推動下將在長期內發揮作用。

As explained over recent quarters, we have secured clear leadership positions in Fluxless Thermo-Compression, which will play an increasingly important role within future heterogeneous and chiplet-based applications. Currently, most advanced logic applications are dependent on aging flip-chip technology, which we anticipate will continue to transition to traditional TCB or Fluxless Thermo-Compression applications. We continue to demonstrate consistent progress to expand our TCB portfolio, customer base, and market access. This highlights our ongoing leadership, industry focus, and long-term potential of this emerging technology.

正如最近幾季所解釋的那樣，我們在無焊劑熱壓領域已經佔據了明顯的領導地位，這將在未來的異構和基於晶片的應用中發揮越來越重要的作用。目前，大多數先進的邏輯應用都依賴老化的倒裝晶片技術，我們預計該技術將繼續過渡到傳統的TCB或無助焊劑熱壓應用。我們將繼續不斷取得進展，擴大我們的 TCB 產品組合、客戶群和市場准入。這凸顯了我們持續的領導地位、產業重點以及這項新興技術的長期潛力。

Turning to our financial results for the December quarter, we delivered $166.1 million of revenue, 52.4% gross margins, and non-GAAP EPS of $0.37. GAAP EPS of $1.51 was largely supported by customer reimbursements associated with our fiscal second quarter 2024 impairment charge of Project W. Lester will provide additional details shortly.

談到我們 12 月季度的財務業績，我們實現了 1.661 億美元的收入、52.4% 的毛利率和非 GAAP 每股收益 0.37 美元。 1.51 美元的 GAAP EPS 在很大程度上受到與我們 2024 財年第二季 W 專案減損費用相關的客戶補償的支持。

From an end market standpoint, the December quarter is generally driven by seasonality within the General Semiconductor market, although we continue to anticipate broader industry growth and demand for our core solutions within fiscal 2025. The General Semiconductor market continues to be largely in a state of capacity digestion, with Ball Bonder revenue sequentially lower from September as expected. We continue to expect we are in a late recovery stage and remain positive on broader recovery through fiscal 2025.

從終端市場的角度來看，12 月季度通常受通用半導體市場的季節性驅動，儘管我們仍然預計 2025 財年內行業將出現更廣泛的增長，並且我們的核心解決方案的需求也將隨之增加。通用半導體市場持續處於產能消化狀態，球焊機收入較9月季減，符合預期。我們繼續預期我們正處於後期復甦階段，並對 2025 財年的更廣泛復甦保持樂觀。

Our Ball Bonder teams remain very active developing new features and platforms to support the evolving high-volume assembly market. We look forward to sharing more information and broadening the Ball Bonder portfolio later in fiscal 2025. Within Automotive and Industrial, we have seen the demand improve over the same quarter last year, related to EV and also power semiconductor demand.

我們的球焊機團隊始終積極開發新功能和新平台，以支援不斷發展的大量組裝市場。我們期待在 2025 財年稍後分享更多資訊並擴大球焊機產品組合。在汽車和工業領域，我們看到需求比去年同期有所改善，這與電動車和功率半導體需求有關。

During the December quarter, we shipped several sets of battery assembly systems to several customers, including a leading EV company and a promising solid-state battery manufacturer. We continue to anticipate additional recovery in the power semiconductor market over the coming quarters. Similar to General Semiconductor for Ball Bonding, Auto and Industrial is our primary market for Wedge Bonding.

12 月季度，我們向多家客戶發貨了多套電池組裝系統，其中包括一家領先的電動車公司和一家有前途的固態電池製造商。我們繼續預計未來幾季功率半導體市場將進一步復甦。與通用半導體的球形鍵結類似，汽車和工業是我們楔形鍵合的主要市場。

Also similar to Ball, our Wedge team is aggressively developing new systems to expand our dominantly heavy-wire wedge position into thinner wire, pin welding, and also chip-attach markets, which will help us better support the rapid evolution of emerging automotive and power-semiconductor needs.

與 Ball 類似，我們的 Wedge 團隊也積極開發新系統，將我們主要的粗線楔形市場拓展到細線、引腳焊接以及晶片連接市場，這將幫助我們更好地支援新興汽車和功率半導體需求的快速發展。

This transition is being driven by growing global demand for more efficient power delivery and storage. We are playing a critical role leading the transition from lower conductivity aluminum interconnects, which are the standard in power semi applications, to copper interconnects. As we are currently demonstrating within the copper-to-copper TCB process and have also led the transition from gold to copper in the high-volume Ball Bonding market over 10 years ago, we have inherent competencies in copper bonding.

這一轉變是由全球對更高效的電力傳輸和儲存日益增長的需求所推動的。我們在引領從低電導率鋁互連（電力半導體應用的標準）轉變為銅互連的過程中發揮關鍵作用。正如我們目前在銅對銅 TCB 工藝中所展示的那樣，並且在 10 年前的大批量球焊市場中引領了從金到銅的轉變，我們在銅焊方面擁有固有的能力。

In wedge, the benefits of more expensive material like copper are significant as it supports more efficient charging, energy generation, and high-power applications such as AI and cloud computing. We are excited to support customers through this potentially significant long-term wedge transition and will provide additional information on these emerging opportunities over the coming quarters.

實際上，銅等更昂貴材料的優勢非常顯著，因為它支援更有效率的充電、發電以及人工智慧和雲端運算等高功率應用。我們很高興能夠幫助客戶度過這一具有潛在重要意義的長期楔形轉變，並將在未來幾季提供有關這些新興機會的更多資訊。

Finally, within memory, we remain focused on driving vertical-wire adoption for emerging applications within both DRAM and NAND. Separately, vertical wire continues to be another emerging memory solution for several global memory customers, who are either requesting information, developing their process, and/or beginning to produce samples to drive market adoption for future stacked DRAM applications.

最後，在記憶體領域，我們仍然專注於推動垂直線在 DRAM 和 NAND 新興應用中的採用。另外，垂直線繼續成為全球多家內存客戶的另一種新興內存解決方案，這些客戶要么在請求信息，要么在開發其流程，要么開始生產樣品，以推動未來堆疊 DRAM 應用的市場採用。

As explained last quarter vertical-wire-based assembly, is positioned to support future high-volume, stacked-memory applications but also has significant potential to enable future high-volume, stacked-logic applications. Similar to TCB, we have a significant technology leadership position with a growing base of engaged customers who are developing new vertical-wire packages.

正如上個季度所解釋的那樣，基於垂直線的組裝不僅可以支援未來的大容量、堆疊記憶體應用，而且還具有實現未來大容量、堆疊邏輯應用的巨大潛力。與TCB類似，我們擁有重要的技術領導地位，並且擁有越來越多正在開發新型垂直線封裝的客戶。

Our process and development engagements have recently increased. We are currently working with leading memory customers in Korea, the US, and China. Over the coming year, vertical-wire connected memory applications are anticipated to move into higher-volume production; and longer-term, we expect this enabling technology to extend into higher-volume General Semiconductor markets.

我們的流程和開發參與度最近有所增加。我們目前正在與韓國、美國和中國領先的記憶體客戶合作。未來一年，垂直線連接記憶體應用預計將進入更大批量生產；從長遠來看，我們預計這項支援技術將擴展到更大規模的通用半導體市場。

As explained earlier, in addition to vertical wire, we are also supporting a major memory customer who is examining fluxless HBM alternatives in coordination with our highly capable FTC process development team. The company continues to be at unique period times. We are well positioned for several promising high-growth opportunities that are supporting long-term critical technology transitions in both leading-edge and high-volume semiconductor assembly.

如前所述，除了垂直線之外，我們還支援一家主要的記憶體客戶，該客戶正在與我們能力極強的 FTC 製程開發團隊協作研究無焊劑 HBM 替代方案。公司仍處於特殊時期。我們已準備好迎接多個前景光明的高成長機遇，這些機會將支援尖端和大批量半導體組裝領域的長期關鍵技術轉型。

While we have already experienced core market improvements, we continue to anticipate both Ball and Wedge will reach more normalized levels of demand within fiscal 2025. Although we anticipate this broad and coordinated recovery to be imminent, we remain focused on what is within our control. Our priorities are to maintain our aggressive cadence of development across all served markets while we continue driving customer acceptance for our new products and services.

雖然我們已經經歷了核心市場的改善，但我們仍然預期 Ball 和 Wedge 都將在 2025 財年達到更正常化的需求水準。儘管我們預期這種廣泛而協調的復甦即將到來，但我們仍然專注於我們能夠控制的事情。我們的首要任務是在所有服務市場保持積極的發展步伐，同時繼續推動客戶對我們新產品和服務的接受度。

I will now turn the call over to Lester for the financial update.

現在我將把電話轉給 Lester 來報告財務最新情況。

Thank you, Fusen. My remarks today will refer to GAAP results unless noted. As Fusen explained, we continue to anticipate a broader cyclical recovery for our Ball and Wedge businesses driven by coordinated improvement within General Semiconductor and Auto, Industrial end markets. We remain very focused to support multiple development programs, product releases, timelines, and customer qualifications.

謝謝你，Fusen。除非另有說明，我今天的發言將參考 GAAP 結果。正如 Fusen 所解釋的那樣，我們繼續預計，在通用半導體和汽車、工業終端市場的協調改善的推動下，我們的球和楔業務將出現更廣泛的週期性復甦。我們仍然高度專注於支援多個開發計劃、產品發布、時間表和客戶資格。

Looking back at our December quarter results, we generated $166.1 million of revenue and 52.4% gross margin. This strong gross margin performance was partially related to revenue recognized in the December quarter for systems expensed in prior periods. During the December quarter, we also recorded a gain of $71 million due to customer settlement associated with our fiscal second-quarter 2024 impairment charge.

回顧我們 12 月季度的業績，我們創造了 1.661 億美元的收入和 52.4% 的毛利率。強勁的毛利率表現部分與 12 月季度確認的、前期費用化的系統收入有關。在 12 月季度，我們也因與 2024 財年第二季減損費用相關的客戶結算而錄得 7,100 萬美元的收益。

Non-GAAP operating expenses, which excludes this item, were $68.6 million. This was below prior expectations due to a favorable foreign exchange gain as well as an ongoing focus on operational and development efficiency. During the December quarter, we booked GAAP tax expenses of $11.3 million, primarily related to the customer segment benefit but also related to our mix of profit and loss across entities during the quarter.

不包括此項的非公認會計準則營業費用為 6,860 萬美元。由於有利的外匯收益以及持續關注營運和開發效率，這一數字低於先前的預期。在 12 月季度，我們記錄了 1,130 萬美元的 GAAP 稅費，主要與客戶部門福利有關，也與我們本季度各實體的盈虧組合有關。

We continue to anticipate our effective tax rate will remain above 20% per quarter through fiscal 2025. As announced on December 2, 2024, we also completed our previous repurchase program and began our new $300 million share repurchase program. Repurchases for the first quarter represented activity from both programs and totaled $36.9 million, reducing shares outstanding by nearly 800,000 shares.

我們預計，到 2025 財年，我們的有效稅率將維持在每季 20% 以上。正如 2024 年 12 月 2 日宣布的那樣，我們也完成了先前的回購計劃，並開始了新的 3 億美元股票回購計劃。第一季的回購代表了兩個計劃的活動，總額為 3,690 萬美元，減少了近 800,000 股流通股。

Turning to the outlook for the March quarter, we expect revenue of approximately $165 million, plus or minus $10 million, with gross margins of 47%. Non-GAAP operating expenses are anticipated to be $70.5 million, plus or minus 2%, and we expect GAAP EPS of $0.03 per share and non-GAAP EPS of $0.19 per share. As we await broader core market recovery, we remain very focused on key development, qualification, and market adoption across our growing portfolio of solutions. We look forward to announcing additional success with these efforts over the coming quarters.

展望 3 月季度的前景，我們預計營收約為 1.65 億美元，上下浮動 1,000 萬美元，毛利率為 47%。非 GAAP 營業費用預計為 7,050 萬美元，上下浮動 2%，我們預計 GAAP 每股收益為 0.03 美元，非 GAAP 每股收益為 0.19 美元。在等待更廣泛的核心市場復甦的同時，我們仍然高度關注不斷增長的解決方案組合的關鍵開發、資格認證和市場採用。我們期待在未來幾季內宣布這些努力取得更多成功。

This concludes our prepared comments. Operator, please open the call for questions.

我們的準備好的評論到此結束。接線員，請打開電話詢問問題。

(Operator Instructions) Krish Sankar, TD Cowen.

（操作員指示） Krish Sankar，TD Cowen。

Hi, thanks for taking my question. I actually had three of them. Number one, Fusen, you kind of said that March quarter general semi should grow. Is it fair to assume that sequentially, into June and September, your bonder revenue should grow sequentially?

你好，謝謝你回答我的問題。我實際上有三個。第一，Fusen，您說過，三月季度的普通半年度銷售額應該會成長。是否可以合理地假設，到 6 月和 9 月，您的債券收入將持續成長？

Yes, okay. So actually, just the past few weeks, [we actually revised] CY -- semiconductor FY25 growth from [17% to 13%]. And we also see our Q2 actually due to Chinese New Year and also global political dynamics. Some of our customers actually delayed their investment decision to up to Chinese New Year.

是的，好的。實際上，就在過去幾週，我們實際上修訂了 CY——2025 財年半導體成長數據。[17%至13%]。而且我們認為第二季的表現其實是受到農曆新年和全球政治動態的影響。我們的一些客戶實際上將他們的投資決定推遲到農曆新年之後。

But despite the change, we still anticipate even 13% of semi growth in CY25 should benefit all of our business. And downtime typically takes around six to seven quarters, and we are approaching 10 quarters. So we believe we are in the last stage of the downtime. So I wish I answered your question. And we still anticipate the transition to be below normal -- are below normal to more normalized level of ball bonding later this year. So I hope I answered your question, Krish.

但儘管發生了變化，我們仍然預計，2025 年半年度的 13% 的成長率也將使我們所有的業務受益。停機時間通常持續約六到七個季度，而我們已經接近十個季度。因此我們相信我們正處於停機期的最後階段。所以我希望我能回答你的問題。我們仍然預計轉變將低於正常水平 - 今年晚些時候將低於正常水平，達到更正常的球焊水平。所以我希望我回答了你的問題，克里什。

Yes, that is helpful. Just to follow up on that point, normalized level for fiscal '25, is that a $550 million run rate? Or how do you think about what is normalized core demand?

是的，這很有幫助。只是為了跟進這一點，25 財年的正常化水準是 5.5 億美元的運作率嗎？或者您如何看待什麼是正常化核心需求？

Okay. Okay. So Krish, I will answer this way. So typically, our second half is always stronger than first half. And we expect the normalized level probably will reach later part. end of -- like our FY25. So it's not unreasonable to expect our second half would be 20%, 30%, or even more than 30% higher than 1H, first half.

好的。好的。所以 Krish，我會這樣回答。因此通常情況下，我們的下半場總是比上半場強勁。我們預計正常化程度可能會在後期達到。就像我們的 FY25 一樣。因此，預計下半年的銷售額將比上半年高出 20%、30% 甚至 30% 以上，這並不是不合理的。

And I'll give you an example, 20% will lead to about 730, and 30% will lead to 760 just for the revenue. So how I define the normalized? I'll give you an example. At the peak cycle, our ball bonder revenue is at the $1 billion. But [average] of FY23, '24, actually, we only see just over $300 million. So we believe our normal year, just ball bonder revenue itself, should be around $500 million to $600 million. So that is really our expectation. Industry price will enter a normalized level, maybe end of our fiscal '25. And when we enter '26, we expect probably full year will be a normalized year.

我舉個例子，20% 的收入大約是 730，30% 的收入大約是 760。那我該如何定義規範化呢？我給你舉個例子。在高峰期，我們的球焊機收入達到10億美元。但實際上，2023、2024 財年的[平均]收入僅略高於 3 億美元。因此我們認為，正常年份，光是球焊機本身的收入就應該在5億到6億美元左右。這確實是我們的期望。行業價格將進入正常化水平，也許是在我們25財年末。當我們進入26年時，我們預計全年可能會是一個正常化的年份。

Got it. Got it. Very helpful. And then just a quick follow-up for Lester. The December quarter margin strength, you said rev rec on systems that are shipped before. Were this TCB, and how many tools were there?

知道了。知道了。非常有幫助。然後我們來快速跟進萊斯特的情況。您說的是 12 月季度的利潤率，是根據之前發貨的系統得出的。這是 TCB 嗎？

No. So Krish, these are tools that is associated with Project W. The customer ordered these tools prior to the cancellation of the project as part of the impairment, which we took in Q2 FY24. The cost of these tools were included in the impairment. Now that we have settled with the customer on Project W, these machines have been recognized in the quarter, which obviously helps strengthen the gross margin.

不。Krish，這些是與專案 W 相關的工具。這些工具的成本已包含在減損中。現在我們已經與客戶就W項目達成協議，這些機器已在本季度得到確認，這顯然有助於加強毛利率。

Got it. Awesome. Thanks, Lester. Thanks, Fusen.

知道了。驚人的。謝謝，萊斯特。謝謝，Fusen。

Craig Ellis, B. Riley Securities.

艾利斯 (Craig Ellis)，B. Riley Securities。

Thanks for taking the questions, guys, and congratulations on some of the progress in the business, like what you're seeing with high-bandwidth memory DRAM. Fusen, I wanted to go back to where Krish started and just see if I could get a follow up. So really like the potential for more normalized core business revenues and Ball and Wedge bonding.

感謝大家回答這些問題，並祝賀我們在業務上取得了一些進展，例如您在高頻寬記憶體 DRAM 方面看到的進展。Fusen，我想回到 Krish 開始的地方，看看是否能得到後續資訊。因此真的很喜歡更正常化的核心業務收入和球楔接合的潛力。

But from all the observable data points, I think we and others see PC, smartphone, other high-volume demand in auto industrial is really very anemic. And clearly, there are some good company-specific things going on in AMI right now. But what are your customers telling you about their need for incremental capacity as they move into that second-half fiscal period for you and need to add capacity to meet demand, which seems more bouncing along the bottom than anything else.

但從所有可觀察到的數據點來看，我認為我們和其他人都看到個人電腦、智慧型手機和汽車工業的其他大量需求確實非常疲軟。顯然，AMI 目前正在進行一些針對公司本身的好事。但是，當您的客戶進入下半年財政期並需要增加產能來滿足需求時，他們對增量產能的需求是怎樣的呢？

Okay. So I think I mentioned even in the Q2, we see customer investment decision actually pushed out after that decision will be delayed until Chinese New Year and also because of the concern about the global dynamic. But the second half typically is really our stronger half, right? So as I mentioned, I think a downturn already take about 10 quarters rather than traditionally six quarters.

好的。所以我想我提到過，即使在第二季度，我們也看到客戶的投資決策實際上被推遲了，因為該決定將推遲到農曆新年，這也是因為對全球動態的擔憂。但下半場通常才是我們表現更強的半場，對嗎？正如我所提到的，我認為經濟衰退已經持續了大約 10 個季度，而不是傳統的 6 個季度。

So we do believe there will be also some investment. I think a mature node -- mature node capacity will come up, particularly in China for 28-nanometer and above. So we are actually, at this moment, is quite -- are still quite bullish about our second half. Also, when we enter later part of second half and into '26, so we believe the run rate for ball bonder can reach to $500 million to $600 million.

因此我們確實相信也會有一些投資。我認為成熟節點的容量將會出現，特別是在中國的 28 奈米及以上技術。因此，實際上，目前，我們對下半年仍然非常樂觀。此外，當我們進入下半年後期和26年時，我們相信球焊機的運行率可以達到5億至6億美元。

$500 million actually is not high. The peak level actually is $1 billion. And at this moment, it's only $300 million, right? So $500 million is just to go back to a pre-COVID level. And the whole industry actually, semiconductor content continues to increase. And the downturn takes very long, and we do believe it's a very late stage of a downturn, right?

5億美元其實不高。峰值水準實際上是 10 億美元。而現在，只有 3 億美元，對嗎？因此，5 億美元只是為了恢復到疫情之前的水準。實際上，整個產業中半導體的含量持續增加。而且經濟衰退會持續很長時間，我們確實認為現在經濟衰退已經進入了非常後期的階段，對嗎？

So when we enter '26, I think we also -- not only ball bonder have a good potential. We also see wedge bonder, we can take market shares from new products like pin weather and clip attach. These are for high-power semi. And we also see the momentum of vertical wire, our AP and also ADS. So we shall give you the [tip for it] for the next couple of quarters.

因此，當我們進入26年時，我認為我們——不僅球焊機具有良好的潛力。我們還看到了楔形鍵合機，我們可以從針式鍵合機和夾式鍵合機等新產品中奪取市場份額。這些適用於高功率半導體。我們也看到了垂直線的動量、我們的 AP 和 ADS。因此，我們將為您提供未來幾季的[提示]。

That's really helpful color, Fusen. Thank you. The next question I had was a follow up on deck slide number 3. Very intriguing point made with a growing pool of high-growth, AI-related opportunities for the company. The question is, can you quantify what the value of those is now, either in the recently recorded first quarter what you would expect in the first quarter. And as we go through '25 and '26, how big can those opportunities become for the business?

這真是很有用的顏色，Fusen。謝謝。我的下一個問題是有關投影片 3 的後續問題。這是一個非常有趣的觀點，公司面臨越來越多高成長人工智慧相關的機會。問題是，你能否量化這些現在的價值，或是在最近記錄的第一季你預期的第一季的價值。當我們經歷25年和26年時，這些機會能為企業帶來多大的改變？

Your question, you were talking about our AP -- PCB?

您的問題是，您談論的是我們的 AP--PCB 嗎？

Yes, and just the products that were referred to in deck slide number 3, lower right, when you talked about a number of AI-related opportunities.

是的，當您談到許多與 AI 相關的機會時，只提到了右下角第 3 張投影片中提到的產品。

Okay. So I will give you -- so this is our forecast. We haven't changed it, but we believe we still have an upside. I think this year, when we define advanced packaging, our revenue for advanced packaging, total packaging, including our multi-die chiplet, SiP, vertical wire, and TCB, right? So 2024, actually, the total AP is $220 million, and we believe the '25, we are aiming at $275 million to $300 million, right? And we do believe the next couple of months, we might add a little bit more strong TCB forecast after long-term forecast we will receive from some other customers.

好的。所以我會給你—這是我們的預測。我們並沒有改變它，但我們相信我們仍然有優勢。我認為今年，當我們定義先進封裝時，我們的先進封裝收入、整體封裝收入，包括我們的多晶片小晶片、SiP、垂直線和TCB，對嗎？因此，實際上，到 2024 年，AP 總額為 2.2 億美元，而我們認為，到 2025 年，我們的目標是 2.75 億至 3 億美元，對嗎？我們確實相信，在接下來的幾個月裡，在收到其他客戶的長期預測之後，我們可能會增加更強勁的 TCB 預測。

Got it. That's helpful. Thanks for the color on those items, Fusen. I'll get back in the queue.

知道了。這很有幫助。感謝 Fusen 為這些物品添加的色彩。我會回到隊列中。

David Duley, Steelhead Securities.

Steelhead Securities 的 David Duley。

Thanks for taking my questions. I got a couple. Could you just talk a little bit more about -- help us understand how many customers now are using your thermo-compression bonding tool. You listed, I think, an OSAT, an IDM foundry. Just I got -- I didn't -- I wasn't able to collect all the information. So if you could just review that again and kind of let us know which ones will be the biggest growth drivers in the near term.

感謝您回答我的問題。我有一對。您能否再多談談—幫助我們了解現在有多少客戶正在使用您的熱壓黏合工具。我認為您列出了一家 OSAT 和一家 IDM 代工廠。只是——我沒有——我無法收集所有的資訊。所以如果你可以再回顧一下並讓我們知道哪些將成為短期內最大的成長動力。

Okay. Actually, we actually have multiple customers. We have foundry. We also have IDM. I think we are in OSAT. Actually, I don't have a total number. I think it will be quite significant.

好的。事實上，我們確實有多位客戶。我們有代工廠。我們也有IDM。我認為我們處於 OSAT 階段。事實上，我沒有總數。我認為這將具有十分重要的意義。

So I think, Dave -- this is Lester. I think between customers who are using it in high-volume production, who's about to use it in volume production, plus qualifying, I think it would be close to 8 to 10 customers who are looking at it or who will soon receive shipments of our TCB bonders.

所以我認為，戴夫——這是萊斯特。我認為，在正在大批量生產中使用它的客戶、即將在批量生產中使用它的客戶以及獲得資格的客戶中，我認為大約有 8 到 10 個客戶正在關注它或將很快收到我們的 TCB 粘合機的貨物。

Okay. And then I think last conference call, I think you highlighted the thermal compression bonding opportunity in 2025. I think it was $40 million. And that was part of this $220 million going to $275 million to $300 million, I think. Could you maybe just break out the pieces of that $275 million to $300 million amongst your advanced packaging pieces?

好的。然後我想在上次電話會議中，您強調了 2025 年的熱壓黏合機會。我認為是 4,000 萬美元。我認為，這是從 2.2 億美元到 2.75 億美元到 3 億美元的一部分。您能否將這 2.75 億到 3 億美元分拆到您的先進封裝產品中？

Okay. Actually, I don't think I have a breakdown over here. This is including -- as I mentioned, this is like a multi-die chiplet, SiP, this free chip vertical wire and TCB. But TCB alone, I think I mentioned in the last call, I think our '24 is $55 million. And this quarter, I think we are aiming at $75 million to $100 million. And the total TCB market, I think, this year for total TCB is about $300 million. So we are probably -- this year, we are aiming probably about 30% of our total market shares. And we do believe we can grow market shares from here.

好的。實際上，我認為我在這裡沒有崩潰。這包括——正如我所提到的，這就像一個多晶片小晶片、SiP、這種免費的晶片垂直線和TCB。但僅就 TCB 而言，我想我在上次電話會議中提到過，我認為我們的 24 億美元是 5500 萬美元。本季度，我認為我們的目標是 7,500 萬至 1 億美元。我認為，今年的 TCB 市場總額約為 3 億美元。因此，我們今年的目標大概是佔據我們總市場份額的 30% 左右。我們確實相信我們可以從這裡擴大市場份額。

Okay, thank you. And then what, as far as the vertical wire solution, would you expect to see revenue from that in 2025? And maybe help us understand if you do have revenue from how many customers.

好的，謝謝。那麼，就垂直線解決方案而言，您預計 2025 年將從中產生收入嗎？也許可以幫助我們了解您確實從多少客戶那裡獲得了收入。

Okay, so I think we are very excited. Almost every memory customer, we are working with that, also recently including China, so also Korean and also a major US IDM. We do believe this is very beneficial. A lot of the first application is going to for the LP DDR5. This is for the sale. But in the future, we believe this vertical wire, not only DRAM. We are also working with a NAND customer and founding actually a lot of new applications. In the future, we will also go to logic, right? So we are quite excited.

好的，我認為我們非常興奮。我們正在與幾乎每個記憶體客戶合作，最近也包括中國、韓國以及美國的一家主要 IDM。我們確實相信這是非常有益的。許多首批應用程式將針對 LP DDR5。這是用來出售的。但未來我們相信這種垂直導線，不只DRAM。我們還與一家 NAND 客戶合作並實際上發現了很多新的應用程式。以後我們也會去邏輯吧？因此我們非常興奮。

So in terms of customer, working with the customer, with the revenue, I would say, three at this moment. This is the initial production. We do believe '25 will be initial production. Some of them just start to run their process. And so including NAND -- including this, I think, we are working probably with seven or eight customers, right?

因此，就客戶、與客戶合作以及收入而言，我認為目前有三個面向。這是初始生產。我們確實相信'25 將是初始生產。其中一些剛開始運行其流程。因此包括 NAND —— 包括這個，我想，我們可能正在與七到八個客戶合作，對嗎？

So we believe '25, we have a low revenue, maybe, I would say, below [$20 million]. And we are looking for '26 to be bigger. And '27, I think, will take off to be much, much bigger. So '26 -- if you want me to pick a number, and I can give you a number, roughly, say, $50 million, '26. And this year, probably below $20 million. And hopefully, this will take off after that. And we do have a strong belief this will be a game changer for the next couple of years.

因此，我們認為 25 年我們的收入較低，也許，我會說，低於[2000萬美元]。我們期待 26 年能更加輝煌。我認為，27 年將會發展得更大、更大。所以，'26 —— 如果你想讓我選一個數字，我可以給你一個大致的數字，比如說 5000 萬美元，'26。今年可能低於2000萬美元。希望此後一切能夠順利。我們堅信這將會改變未來幾年的遊戲規則。

Okay. And final question for me has to do with the dual-head tool for the HBM market. I think you've made mention in the past that you need to have a higher throughput tool in this market to win business. And maybe help us understand what your throughput advantages are versus the competition. Or what are some of the parameters or key metrics that will determine your success in winning business with an HBM customer?

好的。對我來說，最後一個問題與 HBM 市場的雙頭工具有關。我記得您過去曾提到過，您需要在這個市場上擁有更高吞吐量的工具才能贏得業務。也許可以幫助我們了解您相對於競爭對手的吞吐量優勢。或者哪些參數或關鍵指標將決定您能否成功贏得 HBM 客戶的業務？

Well, I think the HBM, let's take two prospects. I think we are engaging for our next generation. And so there are two important parts. One is really the process. We are working for the future. And our goal is target to ship the system end of the year. And so the process, I think, is very, very important. We do believe we are able to create a copper-to-copper. And you have so many there.

嗯，我認為 HBM，讓我們來看看兩個前景。我認為我們正在為我們的下一代而努力。因此有兩個重要部分。一是真正的過程。我們正在為未來而努力。我們的目標是在今年年底推出該系統。所以我認為這個過程非常非常重要。我們確實相信我們能夠實現銅對銅的互聯。那裡有那麼多人。

I think we will provide very good electrical performance. And then I think it's going to be the throughput and productivity. We do believe our tool with the twin head will have an advantage or slightly better than our current competition, I think, at this moment. But we do believe the performance and reliability is what we are aiming at and with a bit of productivity compared to competitors.

我認為我們將提供非常好的電氣性能。然後我認為這將是吞吐量和生產力。我們確實相信，目前我們的雙頭工具將比我們目前的競爭對手更具優勢或略勝一籌。但我們確實相信，效能和可靠性是我們追求的目標，而且與競爭對手相比，我們的生產力更高。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Charles Shi, Needham & Company.

查爾斯·施（Charles Shi），Needham & Company。

Good evening. Fusan. My first question is about the PCB. This dual-head system versus single head, you already shipped and qualified. I wonder, when this customer goes into volume production, do you expect the volume production tool to be single head or dual head, or it's going to be a mix? And maybe a related part of this question is this shipment of the dual-head system sounds like it's an evaluation system; and if that's the case, when do you think you can get the qualification of this tool?

晚安.扶桑。我的第一個問題是關於 PCB 的。此雙頭系統與單頭系統相比，您已經發貨並合格。我想知道，當這個客戶進行大量生產時，您是否希望大量生產工具是單頭還是雙頭，或者是混合的？也許這個問題的相關部分是，這批雙頭系統聽起來像是評估系統；如果是這樣，您認為什麼時候才能獲得此工具的資格？

So Charles, you asked if this is an evaluation system. No, this is not an evaluation system. This is one of the PO we have. So we do believe from one chamber to two chambers, each will go smoothly. We have developed our engineering capacity. The tool right now is used for pilot production and also for the new customer qualification. After maybe in a couple of months, I would say maybe three months, around that, we hope to receive a long-term outlook, business outlook just from customers.

所以查爾斯，你問這是否是一個評估系統。不，這不是一個評估體系。這是我們擁有的採購訂單之一。因此，我們確實相信，從一個議院到兩個議院，每個議院都會順利進行。我們已經發展了我們的工程能力。該工具目前用於試生產以及新客戶認證。大概幾個月後，我想可能是三個月左右，我們希望從客戶身上得到長期前景和業務前景。

But do you think the volume production to be dual head or single head?

但你認為量產是雙頭還是單頭呢？

Yes, that's correct. I think it's going to be dual head.

是的，正確。我認為它將是雙頭的。

Will be dual head, okay. Thanks. Maybe the second question, also on plug-less TCB, I think you mentioned about the engagement with a leading memory customer, HBM. Can you provide a little bit of details on what's the engagement right now that -- what will be the next milestones, et cetera?

將是雙頭的，好的。謝謝。也許第二個問題也是關於無插件TCB，我想您提到了與領先記憶體客戶HBM的合作。您能否提供一些細節，說明目前的合作情況—下一個里程碑是什麼，等等？

Okay, so I think the first two years, we're actually very focused on logic, right? So I can tell you, it's really for the next-generation HBM. And we do believe we did a successful demo. And our goal is really to ship the system by the end of the year. Hopefully, if everything is successful, we can catch high-volume production already within 18 to 24 months. That's really our goal.

好的，所以我認為前兩年我們實際上非常注重邏輯，對嗎？所以我可以告訴你，它確實是針對下一代 HBM 的。我們確實相信我們的演示是成功的。我們的目標是在今年年底前推出該系統。希望一切順利，我們可以在 18 到 24 個月內實現大量生產。這確實是我們的目標。

Got it. Okay. So lastly, a question about the VFO. Thanks for the color you provided to David earlier. I want to ask you, the DRAM wire bounding, I think traditionally, it's not your market, right? It's a Japanese competitor who had that market. So for the top DRAM customers, What's your expected market share in VFO? Because I would assume that the incumbent will also have some solutions. And what would you believe, from where you stand today, the potential market share in VFO could be?

知道了。好的。最後，關於 VFO 的一個問題。感謝您之前向 David 提供的顏色。我想問您，DRAM線綁定，我認為傳統上來說，這不是你們的市場，對嗎？佔據該市場的是日本競爭對手。那麼對於頂級 DRAM 客戶，您在 VFO 中的預期市場佔有率是多少？因為我認為現任者也會有一些解決方案。從您目前所處的位置來看，您認為 VFO 的潛在市佔率是多少？

So Charles, I don't know why you make a comment about Japanese. I think the total market shares, Just all ball bonders, I think we have close to 75% to 80%. And so the NIM, I think we probably have 90-some percent market shares. And for the DRAM, I think DRAM, in terms of a ball bonder -- okay, DRAM, I think at this moment, I would say maybe 60% is a free chip. And then probably ball bonder -- traditional ball bonder, actually, I would say maybe 30%, 40%. I think we still have a very, very high market share. We are still number one, not only in the NAND, also in the DRAM.

所以查爾斯，我不知道你為什麼對日文發表評論。我認為，就整個球焊機的市場份額而言，我們的份額接近 75% 到 80%。所以就 NIM 而言，我認為我們可能擁有 90% 左右的市場份額。對於 DRAM，我認為 DRAM，就球焊機而言 - 好的，DRAM，我認為目前，我會說可能 60％ 是免費晶片。然後可能是球焊機 - 傳統的球焊機，實際上，我想說大概是 30%、40%。我認為我們仍然擁有非常非常高的市場份額。我們仍然是第一，不僅在NAND領域，在DRAM領域也是如此。

So go back to the VFO. I think the first application is going to be DDR5. And this probably can reduce our total packaging form factor about 30%. So that's why it's going to be useful, the [cellphone]. And it's a kind of replaced TSV process with a better processing performance and also cost. I hope I answered your questions.

因此請返回 VFO。我認為第一個應用將是DDR5。這大概可以將我們的整體包裝尺寸減少約30％。這就是為什麼它會很有用，[智慧型手機].它是一種替代TSV工藝的工藝，具有更優的加工性能和更低的成本。我希望我回答了你的問題。

Yes. I mean, do you expect to have a VFO position at all three leading DRAM customers a few years down the road? That's actually my question.

是的。我的意思是，您是否預計幾年後會在所有三大 DRAM 客戶中佔據 VFO 職位？這實際上就是我的問題。

Okay, yes. The answer is yes, we do expect that.

好的，是的。答案是肯定的，我們確實期待這一點。

Okay, all right. Thanks, Fusen.

好的，好的。謝謝，Fusen。

Yes, thank you. Thank you, Charles.

是的，謝謝。謝謝你，查爾斯。

Tom Diffely, D.A. Davidson.

湯姆·迪菲利（Tom Diffely），地區檢察官戴維森。

Okay, thank you. I appreciate the chance to ask a couple of questions here. Fusen, just maybe some questions about the general semi market or the core market. What are the end markets where you're seeing the most excess capacity? Or maybe said a different way, which of the end markets do you think will recover first from a ball bonder utilization rate point of view?

好的，謝謝。我很感謝有機會在這裡提出幾個問題。Fusen，也許我有一些關於通用半導體市場或核心市場的問題。您認為產能過剩最嚴重的終端市場為何？或者換句話說，從球焊機利用率的角度來看，您認為哪個終端市場會先復甦？

Well, I think, actually, the recovery in my mind right now is both Auto and also General Semiconductor is leading by China. So like a front-end wafer equipment, I think it's always, in past couple years, always at the quite high level. And we need to be ready for the next couple of years because of advanced packaging investment and also China.

嗯，我認為，實際上，目前我所關注的復甦是汽車業和通用半導體業的復甦，由中國領導。因此，就像前端晶圓設備一樣，我認為在過去幾年中它一直處於相當高的水平。由於先進封裝投資以及中國市場，我們需要為未來幾年做好準備。

China is expanding a lot of legacy fab capacity. And after they finish our front-end facility, I think the back-end investment will be needed. So the investment of back end and the front end, not necessarily going very, very well. But I can -- actually, we can tell you, I think, at this moment, what are really leading General Semi and also Auto, including ball bonder and also wedge bonder, actually is happening in China.

中國正在擴大大量傳統晶圓廠的產能。在他們完成我們的前端設施後，我認為將需要後端投資。因此，後端和前端的投資不一定會進展得非常順利。但我可以 - 實際上，我們可以告訴你，我認為，目前，真正領先的通用半導體和汽車，包括球焊機和楔焊機，實際上都發生在中國。

Okay. And maybe just to dig in on one piece of the market, so a few of the other players in the semi cap world have talked about some NAND strength recently. It sounds like it's more just kind of on the technology side. Curious if you think you're going to get a boost from that on your NAND business? Or do you have to wait for true capacity buys, excess capacity, or incremental capacity to come back into the marketplace before you see a pickup in that business?

好的。也許只是為了深入市場的某個部分，所以最近一些半導體行業的其他參與者也談到了 NAND 的優勢。聽起來這更多只是技術方面的問題。您是否好奇，這是否會對您的 NAND 業務帶來推動作用？或者你必須等待真正的產能購買、過剩產能或增量產能重新進入市場，然後才能看到該業務的回升？

Okay, so what I can tell you is I think NAND pretty much is really is a ball bonder. And for the NAND, actually, we have, if not above, close to 90% of market shares for the NAND.

好的，我可以告訴你的是，我認為 NAND 基本上就是一台球焊機。而就 NAND 而言，實際上，我們佔據了接近 90％ 的 NAND 市場份額。

Yes. So wondering about the health of that and if you're going to see an uptick in that over the next couple of quarters, like guys like Lamar on the equipment side, or if it's going to be kind of a delayed recovery for you versus those peers.

是的。所以想知道這個行業的健康狀況，以及在接下來的幾個季度裡，你是否會看到一個上升趨勢，就像設備方面的拉馬爾 (Lamar) 這樣的人一樣，或者與那些同行相比，你的復甦是否會出現延遲。

Sometimes I think the investments are probably not in a well-coordinated line. So I actually didn't know which customer you referred to. For example, the [edge company], the NAND, there are many more layers, probably [edge development] and the capacity is more important. And for us, then you finish your product and then it's a stack die. Actually, we can connect a stack die. So what I can tell you is when this finish building in the front end, I think we will benefit because NAND packaging is quite simple.

有時我覺得投資可能沒有協調好。所以我其實不知道您指的是哪位客戶。例如，[邊緣公司]、NAND，還有更多層，可能[邊緣開發]而且容量更為重要。對我們來說，當您完成您的產品時，它就是一個堆疊晶片。實際上，我們可以連接一個堆疊晶片。所以我可以告訴你的是，當前端完成建置時，我認為我們將受益，因為 NAND 封裝非常簡單。

Yes, okay. Thanks for that. And then maybe just a quick follow up for Lester. Lester, when you see the core markets come back in 2026 and kind of get back to that normalized level, what does that do to the margin structure, if anything? I assume that those traditional core markets might be a little lower margin than some of your newer stuff. So I was curious if there's anything we need to think about from a gross margin point of view.

是的，好的。謝謝。然後也許只是對萊斯特進行快速跟進。萊斯特，當您看到核心市場在 2026 年回升並回到正常水平時，這對利潤結構有什麼影響？我認為那些傳統核心市場的利潤率可能比你們的一些新產品低一點。所以我很好奇從毛利率的角度來看我們是否需要考慮什麼。

Well, Tom, from a gross margin standpoint, we're still aiming towards 50%, right? And we think as we head to '26, Even our traditional core products like Ball and Wedge, we are introducing new products which gives us higher margins for both Ball and Wedge. And also, I think we continue to focus on cost reduction, again, both in ball bonder and wedge bonder. So we think actually the margins will continue to improve as we roll into '26. And also, obviously, with higher volume, our margins does get better because our factory utilization goes up.

那麼，湯姆，從毛利率的角度來看，我們仍然瞄準 50%，對嗎？我們認為，隨著我們邁向26年，即使是我們的傳統核心產品如球桿和挖起桿，我們也在推出新產品，這將為球桿和挖起桿帶來更高的利潤。而且我認為我們將繼續專注於降低成本，無論是球焊機還是楔焊機。因此我們認為，隨著進入26年，利潤率實際上將繼續提高。而且顯然，隨著產量的增加，我們的利潤率也會提高，因為我們的工廠利用率上升了。

Great. Okay, thanks. Appreciate it.

偉大的。好的，謝謝。非常感謝。

Craig Ellis, B. Reiley.

克雷格·艾利斯、B.萊利。

Yes, thanks for sneaking in the follow-up question. Fusen, I wanted to go back to some commentary around Charles' question around when we get the volume shipment intercept with high-bandwidth memory on fluxless TCB. I think you said at the end of this year, that's possible. And so the question is, is the enabling development the industry's transition to HBM4? Is it as industry goes to higher stacked and likely more volume 16 stack at that time or something else that's creating that window of opportunity for you? Thank you.

是的，感謝您偷偷提出後續問題。Fusen，我想回到關於 Charles 的問題的一些評論，關於何時我們在無通量 TCB 上使用高頻寬記憶體獲得批量出貨截距。我想你在今年年底說過，這是有可能的。所以問題是，這項支持性發展是否是產業向 HBM4 的過渡？是隨著產業向更高層次發展，而當時 16 層堆疊的容量可能會更大，還是其他因素為您創造了機會之窗？謝謝。

Yes, next generation right now is 3E. So I just want to make sure we have a right expectation. Before us trying to penetrate through a DRAM market, there's already a machine provider from Korea and also a lot of other customers. So this one, I think when we say we will ship a system, this will be actually after customers have confidence, after the demonstration is good. We actually intend to ship a system maybe later part of the year. And we still need to go through a lot of development, right? So to really win the high-volume production, I think probably successful, qualified -- probably this already big milestone, we are targeting about 18 months.

是的，現在的下一代是 3E。所以我只是想確保我們有正確的期望。在我們嘗試打入 DRAM 市場之前，已經有來自韓國的機器供應商以及許多其他客戶。所以這一點，我認為當我們說我們將發布一個系統時，這實際上是在客戶有信心之後，在演示良好之後。實際上，我們打算在今年稍後推出一個系統。我們還需要經歷很多發展，對嗎？因此，為了真正實現大批量生產，我認為可能成功、合格——可能這已經是一個很大的里程碑，我們的目標是 18 個月左右。

Okay. Got it. So commercial revenue really would be sometime in calendar '26 rather than something that would be exiting '25.

好的。知道了。因此，商業收入實際​​上應該是在 26 年的某個時候，而不是在 25 年結束時。

That is quite correct, yes.

是的，非常正確。

Thank you. We've reached the end of our question-and-answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back over for any further or closing comments.

謝謝。我們的問答環節已經結束。我想將發言權轉回給大家，以便大家可以發表進一步的評論或結束語。

Thank you, Kevin, and thank you all for joining today's call. Over the coming quarter, we'll be presenting at several conferences and roadshows. As always, please feel free to follow up directly with any additional questions. This concludes today's call. Have a great day, everyone.

謝謝你，凱文，也謝謝大家參加今天的電話會議。在接下來的一個季度，我們將在幾場會議和路演中發表演講。像往常一樣，如果您有任何其他問題，請隨時直接諮詢。今天的電話會議到此結束。祝大家有個愉快的一天。

Thank you. That does conclude today's teleconference and webcast. You may disconnect your line at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today.

謝謝。今天的電話會議和網路直播到此結束。此時您可以斷開線路並享受美好的一天。我們感謝您今天的參與。