庫力索法 (KLIC) 2024 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Greetings and welcome to the Kulicke & Soffa 2024 third-quarter results. (Operator Instructions) As a reminder, this conference is being recorded.

問候並歡迎來到 Kulicke & Soffa 2024 年第三季業績。（操作員指示）提醒一下，本次會議正在錄音。

It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Joe Elgindy, the Director of Investor Relations. Thank you, Joe. You may begin.

現在我很高興介紹您的主持人，投資者關係總監喬·埃爾金迪（Joe Elgindy）。謝謝你，喬。你可以開始了。

Thank you. Welcome, everyone, to Kulicke & Soffa’s fiscal third-quarter 2024 conference call. Fusen Chen, President and Chief Executive Officer; and Lester Wong, Chief Financial Officer are also joining on today’s call.

謝謝。歡迎大家參加 Kulicke & Soffa 2024 財年第三季電話會議。陳福森，總裁兼執行長；和財務長 Lester Wong 也將參加今天的電話會議。

Non-GAAP financial measures, referenced today, should be considered in addition to, not as a substitute for, or in isolation from, our GAAP financial information. GAAP to non-GAAP reconciliation tables are included within our latest earnings release, and earnings presentation. Both are available at investor.kns.com, along with prepared remarks for today’s call.

今天提到的非公認會計準則財務指標應被視為我們的公認會計準則財務資訊的補充，而不是替代或孤立於公認會計準則財務資訊。我們最新的收益報告和收益報告中包含了 GAAP 與非 GAAP 的對帳表。這兩份文件均可在 investor.kns.com 上查閱，同時也可查閱今天電話會議的準備好的發言稿。

In addition to historical statements, today's remarks will contain statements relating to future events and our future results. These statements are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, and are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause our actual results and financial condition to differ materially from the statements made today.

除了歷史陳述之外，今天的評論還將包含與未來事件和我們未來結果有關的陳述。這些聲明是 1995 年私人證券訴訟改革法所定義的前瞻性聲明，並且受風險和不確定性的影響，這些風險和不確定性可能導致我們的實際結果和財務狀況與今天的聲明有重大差異。

For a complete discussion of the risks associated with Kulicke & Soffa, that could affect our future results and financial condition, please refer to our recent and upcoming SEC filings, specifically our latest Form 10-K, as well as the 8-K filed today.

有關 Kulicke & Soffa 相關風險的完整討論（可能影響我們未來的業績和財務狀況），請參閱我們最近和即將提交的 SEC 文件，特別是我們最新的 10-K 表格，以及今天提交的 8-K 表格。

With that said, I will now turn the call over to Fusen Chen for the business overview. Please go ahead.

說了這麼多，現在我將把電話轉給陳福森，聽取業務概述。請繼續。

Thank you, Joe. Good afternoon, everyone. Throughout the past quarters, we continued to execute on several growth initiatives including driving critical progress in advanced packaging and advanced dispense qualifications, enjoying broadening adoption of our new ball bonding solutions, while we also observed ongoing utilization improvement across several of our key end markets.

謝謝你，喬。大家下午好。在過去的幾個季度中，我們繼續執行多項成長計劃，包括推動先進封裝和先進分配資格方面的關鍵進展，享受我們新的球焊解決方案的廣泛採用，同時我們還觀察到我們在幾個主要終端市場的利用率持續提高。

Before reviewing our quarterly results and performance, I would like to mention a few points on the recent industry momentum within thermo-compression. There have been three key milestones which we are excited to explain.

在回顧我們的季度業績和表現之前，我想先提一下最近熱壓縮產業發展的幾點發展勢頭。有三個關鍵的里程碑，我們很高興能夠解釋一下。

First, the formation of, as well as our membership in, the US-Joint semiconductor consortium was announced last month. Resonac Holdings Corporation, a leading provider of global semiconductor materials, formed this consortium to support industry collaboration and market adoption of new advanced packaging production solutions. After Joint and Joint 2 were created in Japan, the US-Joint consortium represents the third Joint consortium globally and the first in the United States.

首先，上個月我們宣布成立美國聯合半導體聯盟並成為其成員。全球領先的半導體材料供應商Resonac Holdings Corporation成立了該聯盟，以支援產業合作和市場對新型先進封裝生產解決方案的採用。繼日本成立聯合體和聯合2號聯合體之後，美聯合體是全球第三、美國第一個聯合體。

A combination of ten leading equipment, materials, and process companies based in the US and Japan represent the US-Joint’s forming members, who have the near-term goal to establish a US-based R&D facility with advanced packaging capabilities. Construction for the US-based R&D facility will begin in the current calendar year, and at completion, will provide access for critical industry-leading-advanced packaging technologies, materials, and processes, which are not readily available locally to many of our US-based customers.

美國和日本的十家領先設備、材料和製程公司組成了 US-Joint 的創始成員，其近期目標是在美國建立一個具有先進封裝能力的研發機構。該美國研發設施將於今年開始建設，竣工後將為許多美國客戶提供關鍵的行業領先、先進的封裝技術、材料和工藝，而這些技術、材料和工藝對於我們許多美國客戶來說在當地並不容易獲得。

Our second TCB milestone is associated with a collaboration with the subsidiary of a large semiconductor conglomerate who has successfully demonstrated our leading Fluxless thermo-compression or FTC system, which is capable of direct copper-to-copper bonding as a standard feature, can also enable an exciting new chip-to-wafer hybrid bonding process. Hybrid bonding involves making both conductive and dielectric bonds, providing specific benefits for select end markets. With a lower requirement for capital-intensive front-end investments relative to existing chip-to-wafer hybrid solutions, we expect this bumpless-FTC process to further expand our long-term chiplet and heterogeneous opportunities.

我們的第二個 TCB 里程碑與一家大型半導體集團的子公司的合作有關，該公司成功展示了我們領先的無助焊劑熱壓或 FTC 系統，該系統能夠實現直接銅對銅鍵合作為標準功能，還可以實現令人興奮的全新晶片到晶圓混合鍵合製程。混合鍵合涉及導電鍵合和電介質鍵合，為特定的終端市場提供特定的優勢。與現有的晶片到晶圓混合解決方案相比，對資本密集型前端投資的要求較低，我們預計這種無擾動 FTC 製程將進一步擴大我們的長期晶片和異質機會。

As explained by industry headlines, there are many hybrid bonding processes including wafer-to-wafer as well as chip-to-wafer. This innovative TCB-enabled hybrid solution targets chip-to-wafer applications for deployment in high-volume consumer and compute markets, by offering a lower capital-intensive path to hybrid-based chiplet assembly.

正如行業頭條所解釋的，有許多混合鍵合工藝，包括晶圓到晶圓以及晶片到晶圓。這種創新的TCB混合解決方案針對晶片到晶圓的應用，透過為基於混合的晶片組裝提供較低的資本密集型途徑，部署在大批量消費和運算市場中。

At a higher-level, adopting chiplet-based packages can reduce product development times, allow for amortizing design costs over broader end markets, and is critically important in extending Moore’s law. With that said, our existing FTC system, which can bond copper-to-copper interconnects as a standard feature, can provide a more direct pathway to chiplet-based production for many customers. Those seeking a chip-to-wafer hybrid option now have an additional alternative.

從更高層次來看，採用基於小晶片的封裝可以縮短產品開發時間，允許在更廣泛的終端市場上攤提設計成本，並且對於延伸摩爾定律至關重要。話雖如此，我們現有的 FTC 系統可以將銅對銅互連作為標準功能，為許多客戶提供基於晶片生產的更直接途徑。那些尋求晶片到晶圓混合選項的人現在有了更多的選擇。

As the industry accelerates the adoption of thermo-compression, we continue to enjoy growing commercial success and broadening market access through our intimate and expanding customer engagements. Over the past four years, on a trailing basis, our TCB business has grown by 10 times, and we are still in the early stages. This was accomplished through new access to silicon photonics, 3D sensing and leading-edge markets, including our first-mover position in Fluxless TCB at a leading IDM customer.

隨著業界加速採用熱壓技術，我們透過密切且不斷擴大的客戶合作，繼續享受不斷增長的商業成功並拓寬市場准入。在過去四年中，我們的 TCB 業務年增了 10 倍，而且我們仍處於早期階段。這是透過進入矽光子學、3D 感測和前沿市場的新途徑實現的，包括我們在領導 IDM 客戶中在無助焊劑 TCB 領域的先行地位。

We have continued to drive industry adoption and have announced several wins in the assembly and test space earlier today, highlighting this rapidly growing opportunity. Also, we continue to make progress in our foundry engagements and remain very optimistic we can unlock an additional leading-edge customer over the near term.

我們一直在推動行業採用，並在今天早些時候宣布了在組裝和測試領域取得的幾項勝利，凸顯了這一快速增長的機會。此外，我們在代工業務方面繼續取得進展，並且仍然非常樂觀地認為我們可以在短期內獲得額外的前沿客戶。

Similar to our initial IDM customer engagement, which began in 2020, new-technology wins with leading customers requires a lengthy and collaborative engagement process and significant patience. These recent wins and evaluation progress, help solidify our TCB process as a long-term solution to support the growing adoption of chiplet-based architectures.

與我們於 2020 年開始的初始 IDM 客戶參與類似，新技術要贏得領先客戶的青睞需要漫長的協作參與過程和極大的耐心。這些最近的勝利和評估進展有助於鞏固我們的 TCB 流程作為長期解決方案的地位，以支援日益廣泛採用基於小晶片的架構。

While there are several different technologies and processes to support the diverse needs of the future chiplet market, we are well prepared to support the industry with our leading solutions. We are clearly excited as we are securing positions in new markets supporting AI, HPC, and mobility – which have historically not included from our served markets. These wins provide confidence in our leadership, as well as the long-term potential for Fluxless adoption. Due to thermo-compression adaptability, out-of-box copper-to-copper capability, and broader customer set, it provides lower barriers to entry for mass-market chiplet adoption. Thermo-compression remains an emerging technology with a long-technology life ahead to support these growing market needs.

雖然有幾種不同的技術和流程來支援未來小晶片市場多樣化的需求，但我們已做好充分準備，以領先的解決方案來支援該行業。我們非常興奮，因為我們正在支援人工智慧、高效能運算和行動性的新市場中佔有一席之地——這些市場在歷史上並不包括在我們服務的市場中。這些勝利增強了我們對領導地位的信心，也為 Fluxless 的長期應用潛力增添了信心。由於熱壓適應性、開箱即用的銅對銅能力以及更廣泛的客戶群，它為大眾市場晶片的採用提供了更低的進入門檻。熱壓縮仍然是一種新興技術，具有較長的技術壽命，可以滿足不斷增長的市場需求。

Different interconnect technologies can be challenging for analysts and investors to forecast, although I would like to remind investors to not overly focus on one specific interconnect technology. There are many packaging transitions across our end markets with a growing number of tradeoffs, largely between cost and performance, but also production capability and system-level requirements. It’s critically important to recognize that the high-volume, cost-sensitive portions of the semiconductor assembly market will also need stacked-die solutions over the long term.

不同的互連技術對於分析師和投資者來說可能很難預測，但我想提醒投資者不要過度關注某種特定的互連技術。我們的終端市場中存在許多封裝轉變，並且需要越來越多的權衡，主要是成本和效能之間的權衡，但也包括生產能力和系統級要求之間的權衡。至關重要的是要認識到，半導體組裝市場的大批量、成本敏感部分也將長期需要堆疊晶片解決方案。

These varying market needs are becoming more evident every quarter, as we are actively developing several multi-die and stacked-die solutions which are being evaluated across our customer base. Many of these higher-volume opportunities will likely demand more cost-effective processes, such as vertical wire, and remain independent from many of today’s TCB and hybrid-focused markets.

由於我們正在積極開發多種多晶片和堆疊晶片解決方案並在整個客戶群中進行評估，因此這些不同的市場需求每季都變得更加明顯。許多此類更高容量的機會可能需要更具成本效益的工藝，例如垂直制線，並且與當今許多以 TCB 和混合為重點的市場保持獨立。

From our humble wire-bonding roots, we are pleased with our new market footing and access we have demonstrated. Recent customer adoption combined with ongoing innovations provides a strong foundation to support long-term advanced packaging adoption. I am very proud of our team for developing and driving the recent customer success across our portfolio.

從我們卑微的引線鍵合起步，我們對自己所展示的新市場立足點和通路感到非常滿意。最近的客戶採用與持續的創新相結合，為支援長期先進封裝的採用提供了堅實的基礎。我為我們的團隊在整個產品組合中開發和推動近期客戶的成功感到非常自豪。

Turning to the June quarter business results, we were able to achieve our guidance midpoint while generating slightly more non-GAAP EPS than anticipated, due to our operational focus.

談到 6 月季度的業務業績，由於我們的營運重點，我們能夠實現指導中點，同時產生比預期略高的非 GAAP 每股收益。

At a high level, we expect most of our end markets have already experienced trough levels of demand over the past 18 months. Over this time, certain markets began showing signs of improvement, while other markets faced headwinds that restricted our corporate-level performance. For example, our ball bonding revenue, on a year-to-date basis, has improved by 42 %. Despite this relatively meaningful level of improvement, we also experienced offsets due to well-known automotive and industrial headwinds, which reduced wedge demand earlier this year.

從高層次來看，我們預計，在過去 18 個月中，我們的大多數終端市場需求已經跌至低谷。在此期間，某些市場開始出現改善跡象，而其他市場則面臨限制我們公司層級績效的阻力。例如，今年迄今為止，我們的球焊收入已經成長了 42%。儘管取得了相對有意義的改善，但我們也因眾所周知的汽車和工業逆風而經歷了抵消，這減少了今年早些時候的楔形需求。

At this point, we are pleased to begin seeing signs that multiple end-markets are improving gradually, although in better coordination, and we remain optimistic. While the market environment has become more positive, we expect our high-volume solutions are still well below the normal demand levels we would consider sustainable for the broader industry. Our core ball and wedge businesses have room to grow.

此時，我們很高興地看到有跡象表明多個終端市場正在逐步改善，儘管協調性更好，但我們仍然保持樂觀。儘管市場環境已變得更加積極，但我們預計我們的大批量解決方案仍遠低於我們認為整個行業可持續的正常需求水準。我們的核心球和楔形球業務還有成長空間。

Looking at our end markets more specifically, we continued to see utilization improvements in general semiconductor; pockets of demand improvements in LED, automotive, and industrial; resilience in APS; and ongoing recovery in memory.

更具體地看我們的終端市場，我們繼續看到通用半導體的利用率提高； LED、汽車和工業領域的需求改善； APS 中的彈性；並持續恢復記憶。

Within general semiconductor, utilization rates for ball bonding have continued to improve sequentially, although have not yet reached the critical tipping point expected to drive high-volume customers to broadly require capacity additions. Recent order activity has centered around high-volume regions where utilization rates have averaged over 80% for the past two quarters.

在通用半導體領域，球焊的利用率持續連續提高，儘管尚未達到預計會推動大批量客戶廣泛要求增加產能的臨界點。最近的訂單活動集中在訂單量大的地區，過去兩個季度這些地區的平均利用率超過 80%。

At the same time, the rest of the world has lagged slightly but is continuing to improve. As expected, global ball bonder utilization rates have exceeded 75% last quarter and are anticipated to be in the high-70% range during our fourth fiscal quarter. Looking out into fiscal 2025, we continue to anticipate semiconductor unit growth expectations will support an additional step-up in demand for our high-volume solutions. We also anticipate ongoing industry growth will continue into calendar 2025, based on market forecasts, but also due to ongoing global front-end related investments.

與此同時，世界其他地區雖然略有落後，但正在繼續改善。正如預期的那樣，上個季度全球球焊機利用率已經超過 75％，預計第四財季利用率將達到 70％ 左右。展望 2025 財年，我們繼續預期半導體單位成長預期將支持對我們的大批量解決方案的需求進一步增加。根據市場預測，同時也得益於全​​球前端相關投資的持續發展，我們預期產業成長將持續到 2025 年。

In addition to the improving general semiconductor dynamics, we also booked approximately $20 million in thermo-compression revenue during the June quarter, which included our recognition of an additional FTC system which supported the recent TCB-enabled hybrid development milestone.

除了不斷改善的一般半導體動態之外，我們還在 6 月季度實現了約 2000 萬美元的熱壓縮收入，其中包括我們對支援最近 TCB 支持的混合開發里程碑的額外 FTC 系統的確認。

Within Automotive and Industrial, we have also seen improvements in demand as our interconnect leadership position is actively supporting emerging processes utilized in efficient power storage, power delivery, and power control for electric vehicles, charging infrastructure, industrial applications, and sustainable energy generation. We continue to see many innovations effecting power-semiconductor assembly which are driving the need for more robust interconnect technologies such as our recent high-power interconnect, or HPI solution within wedge bonding.

在汽車和工業領域，我們也看到了需求的改善，因為我們的互連領導地位正在積極支持電動車、充電基礎設施、工業應用和可持續能源發電的高效電力儲存、電力傳輸和電力控制中使用的新興製程。我們繼續看到許多影響功率半導體組裝的創新，這些創新推動了對更強大的互連技術的需求，例如我們最近的高功率互連或楔形鍵合內的HPI解決方案。

HPI is being deployed in high-volume battery production as well as for more efficient power conversion required for charging and sustainable energy applications. We remain directly involved with several global EV manufacturers, the broader power semiconductor technology transitions, as well as leaders in the dynamic battery market. Of note this quarter, we continue to support an exciting dispense opportunity recently deployed with a leading solid-state battery company.

HPI 正在部署於大批量電池生產以及充電和可持續能源應用所需的更高效的電力轉換。我們仍然直接參與多家全球電動車製造商、更廣泛的功率半導體技術轉型以及動態電池市場的領導者。值得注意的是，本季我們繼續支持最近與一家領先的固態電池公司合作部署的令人興奮的分配機會。

While sub-markets of automotive and industrial may still be digesting capacity, we expect ongoing improvement to continue throughout fiscal 2025.

儘管汽車和工業子市場可能仍在消化產能，但我們預計持續改善的勢頭將持續到 2025 財年。

Within memory, we see customers investing in new capacity and technology which is supporting the NAND market and gaining support for new stacked-die solutions in the large and established LPDDR market. While NAND is arguably the largest stacked-die market in the semiconductor market, relying nearly exclusively on wire-bonding technology, we expect high-volume DRAM to transition to 3D packaging formats over the coming years. Several important leaders in the memory market are expected to accelerate development and pre-production activities over the coming quarters, with higher-volume production to begin in late calendar 2025 or early 2026.

在記憶體領域，我們看到客戶正在投資新產能和技術，這支援了 NAND 市場，並在龐大而成熟的 LPDDR 市場中獲得對新堆疊晶片解決方案的支援。儘管 NAND 可以說是半導體市場中最大的堆疊晶片市場，幾乎完全依賴引線接合技術，但我們預計未來幾年大批量 DRAM 將過渡到 3D 封裝格式。預計未來幾季內存市場的幾家重要領導者將加速開發和預生產活動，並將於 2025 年末或 2026 年初開始大量生產。

Similar to the growing leading-edge and high-volume assembly needs for chiplet-based architectures, the memory market continues to seek out new ways to leverage packaging technology to drive greater transistor-density-per-area.

與基於小晶片架構的不斷增長的前沿和大批量組裝需求類似，記憶體市場也在繼續尋找新方法來利用封裝技術來提高單位面積電晶體密度。

Our thermo-compression and vertical wire solutions are anticipated to more effectively meet the mass market’s performance, manufacturability, and cost requirements verse emerging technologies such as chip-level hybrid bonding that can be prohibitively expensive due to the requirement for front-end capabilities as well as well-known yield challenges.

我們的熱壓和垂直線解決方案有望更有效地滿足大眾市場的性能、可製造性和成本要求，而晶片級混合鍵合等新興技術由於前端功能的要求以及眾所周知的產量挑戰而可能成本高昂。

We remain in a very unique industry position as evident in our leadership enabling critical technology transitions such as direct copper-to-copper and Fluxless adoption for leading-edge applications, high-power interconnect solutions for automotive and industrial applications, and vertical-wire solutions for high-volume consumer-oriented markets. These emerging solutions supplement our existing broad portfolio of interconnect solutions. We are well positioned to support customers’ needs while delivering significant long-term value to investors.

我們仍然處於非常獨特的行業地位，這體現在我們的領導地位上，實現了關鍵的技術轉型，例如用於前沿應用的直接銅對銅和無焊劑採用、用於汽車和工業應用的高功率互連解決方案，以及用於大批量面向消費者的市場的垂直線解決方案。這些新興解決方案補充了我們現有的廣泛的互連解決方案組合。我們有能力滿足客戶的需求，同時為投資者帶來重大的長期價值。

In closing, after nearly two years of capacity digestion, we are pleased to continue seeing gradual signs of broader-based cyclical recovery across multiple end markets. Gartner recently projected a 17% semiconductor revenue industry growth rate through calendar year 2025. This growth expectation seems very reasonable considering ongoing global front-end investments and is expected to be led primarily by AI, automotive, and general semiconductor, which we expect will directly benefit the company and its investors. Global utilization rates which are moving to the high-70% range, also increases confidence for a more robust 2025 recovery.

最後，經過近兩年的產能消化，我們很高興看到多個終端市場持續出現更廣泛的週期性復甦跡象。Gartner 最近預測，到 2025 年，半導體產業營收成長率將達到 17%。考慮到正在進行的全球前端投資，這一成長預期似乎非常合理，預計主要由人工智慧、汽車和通用半導體引領，我們預計這將直接使公司及其投資者受益。全球利用率正在升至 70% 的高位，這也增強了人們對 2025 年更強勁復甦的信心。

I will now turn the call over to Lester for the financial review update.

現在我將把電話轉給萊斯特，聽取財務審查的最新進展。

Thank you, Fusen. My remarks today will refer to GAAP results, unless noted. While there continues to be headwinds across specific end markets, it remains a transformative time for the company.

謝謝你，Fusen。除非另有說明，我今天的發言將參考 GAAP 結果。儘管特定終端市場仍面臨阻力，但對公司來說這仍是個轉型時期。

As Fusen mentioned, multiple end-markets are showing signs of improvement represented in utilization rates as well as growth expectations into next year, while momentum in our portfolio of advanced packaging solutions is accelerating through both our direct customer qualifications and broadening industry adoption.

正如 Fusen 所提到的，多個終端市場都顯示出改善的跡象，體現在利用率和明年的成長預期上，而我們先進封裝解決方案組合的發展勢頭正在透過直接客戶認證和擴大行業採用而加速。

During the June quarter, we generated $181.7 million of revenue and a 46.6% gross margin.

6 月季度，我們創造了 1.817 億美元的收入，毛利率為 46.6%。

Gross margins were largely affected by product and customer mix. Operating expenses came in slightly lower than expected as we have maintained a significant focus on operational efficiency as our development teams remain nimble and were efficiently re-allocated to support in-demand projects over the past quarter.

毛利率主要受產品和顧客組合的影響。營運費用略低於預期，因為我們一直高度重視營運效率，因為我們的開發團隊保持靈活，並在過去一個季度有效地重新分配以支援需求旺盛的專案。

GAAP tax expenses came in at $4.1 million during the June Quarter. We continue to anticipate an effective tax rate above 20% through the remainder of fiscal year 2024, largely related to our R&D tax treatment under Section 174.

6 月季度的 GAAP 稅費為 410 萬美元。我們預計 2024 財年剩餘時間的有效稅率將繼續高於 20%，這主要與我們根據第 174 條規定的研發稅收待遇有關。

Our repurchase program remains opportunistic, and we have again increased our repurchase activity sequentially. During the June quarter we booked $44 million of open market repurchase activity, which represents a sequential increase of nearly 18%, and a 64% increase over the previous December quarter. As a reference point, we repurchased $728.5 million through both open market and accelerated repurchase activity under the existing repurchase program since August of 2017. At the end of the June Quarter, we had approximately $73 million remaining on this existing share repurchase authorization.

我們的回購計劃仍然是機會性的，我們再次連續增加了回購活動。6 月季度，我們預定了 4,400 萬美元的公開市場回購活動，較上季成長近 18%，比去年 12 月季度成長 64%。作為參考，自 2017 年 8 月以來，我們根據現有回購計畫透過公開市場和加速回購活動回購了 7.285 億美元。截至六月季度末，我們現有的股票回購授權剩餘金額約為 7,300 萬美元。

In addition to the long-term nature of our share repurchase program, we continue to support an industry leading dividend program as we continue to execute on new long-term growth opportunities.

除了我們的股票回購計劃的長期性之外，我們還將繼續支持業界領先的股息計劃，並繼續實施新的長期成長機會。

As Fusen clearly explained, we remain very optimistic in a broader multi-market recovery over the coming quarters. Although we may not be at the tipping point yet, we anticipate meaningful capacity demand improvements for our high-volume markets over the near-term.

正如 Fusen 明確解釋的那樣，我們對未來幾季更廣泛的多市場復甦仍然非常樂觀。儘管我們可能尚未到達臨界點，但我們預計短期內我們的大批量市場產能需求將顯著改善。

For the September quarter, we expect revenue of approximately $180 million , plus or minus $10 million with gross margins of 47%.

對於 9 月當季，我們預計收入約為 1.8 億美元，上下浮動 1,000 萬美元，毛利率為 47%。

Non-GAAP operating expenses are anticipated to be $69 million , plus or minus 2%.

非 GAAP 營業費用預計為 6,900 萬美元，上下浮動 2%。

Collectively, for the September quarter, we expect GAAP EPS of $0.22 per share and non-GAAP EPS of $0.35 per share.

總體而言，對於 9 月季度，我們預計 GAAP 每股收益為 0.22 美元，非 GAAP 每股收益為 0.35 美元。

Looking ahead, we remain very focused on our close customer engagements and look forward to providing additional details to the technology transitions we are involved in that are supporting new technology and adoption milestones which will help to build a foundation in memory, dispense, and thermo-compression growth prospects over the coming years.

展望未來，我們仍然高度關注與客戶的密切合作，並期待為我們參與的技術轉型提供更多細節，這些技術轉型將支持新技術和採用里程碑，這將有助於為未來幾年的記憶體、分配和熱壓縮成長前景奠定基礎。

This concludes our prepared comments. Operator, please open the call for questions.

我們的準備好的評論到此結束。接線員，請打開電話詢問問題。

(Operator Instructions) Craig Ellis, B. Riley Securities.

（操作員指示） Craig Ellis，B. Riley Securities。

Yeah, thanks for taking the question. And Fusen, thank you for all the help with the new product information. I wanted to inquire on a near-term item first and look a little bit beyond the September quarter. So as you look at the gives and takes for the fiscal first quarter with the broad-based or coordinated -- I guess, coordinated recovery, you talked about, Fusen. How do you think about the impact what you're seeing with improving end markets or portions of end markets versus just relatively low utilization levels in most of industry? Thank you.

是的，感謝您回答這個問題。還有 Fusen，謝謝你對新產品資訊提供的所有幫助。我想先詢問一下近期的項目，然後再看一下九月季度之後的情況。因此，當您查看第一財季的得失時，可以看到廣泛或協調的——我想，就是您談到的協調復甦，福森。您如何看待終端市場或部分終端市場的改善與大多數產業相對較低的使用率水準所帶來的影響？謝謝。

So Craig, you are asking about Q4 FY24?

那麼 Craig，您問的是 2024 財年第四季的情況嗎？

Calendar 4Q, yeah.

日曆 4Q，是的。

Okay. So last quarter, I think we expect a gradual recovery with a slightly improvement into September. Our low [utilization] rate went up but are still not high enough to trigger broader recovery. So at this moment, actually, I think we are seeing Q4 actually flat compared to Q3.

好的。因此，我認為我們預計上個季度的情況將逐步復甦，9 月將略有改善。我們的低利用率有所上升，但仍不足以引發更廣泛的復甦。因此目前，實際上，我認為我們看到第四季度與第三季度相比持平。

That's helpful. And then as you look out further, Fusen, and this is more of a question about what your customers are telling you and how they're telling you to get the business ready for -- what should be some seasonal acceleration in the business? Can you just talk about how you envision the slope of recovery playing out? It seems like we've got very uneven demand dynamics across end markets. Indeed, some are recovering seem to be still trying to find a bottom like industrial. What does that mean for how the business might perform as we think about calendar 1Q through 3Q next year?

這很有幫助。然後，當你進一步觀察時，Fusen，這更多的是一個關於你的客戶告訴你什麼以及他們如何告訴你為業務做好準備的問題——業務中應該出現哪些季節性加速？能談談您對經濟復甦進程的預測嗎？看起來我們各個終端市場的需求動態非常不均衡。事實上，一些正在復甦的行業似乎仍在努力尋找像工業產業那樣的底部。當我們考慮明年第一季到第三季的業務表現時，這對公司意味著什麼？

Okay. So Craig, you see, past about six quarters, our revenue basically is quite flat. And -- but at each movement, it's our feeling. This is a first half positive quarter. We see multiple end markets improvement in coordination. For example, I think early '23, the (inaudible) on the equity, in our opinion, not a lot. In the meantime, the wedge bonder, which was impacted by industrial and also auto. So that's why I think we actually almost have a cost activity six months of quite flat.

好的。克雷格，您看，過去六個季度，我們的收入基本上持平。而且──但每一個動作，都是我們的感覺。這是上半年的一個正面季度。我們看到多個終端市場協調性不斷改善。例如，我認為在 23 年初，我們認為股權方面的（聽不清楚）並不多。同時，楔形鍵合機也受到了工業和汽車業的衝擊。所以我認為這就是為什麼我們的成本活動實際上六個月幾乎保持穩定。

But what we are seeing from our feedback, we see auto will be coming back. We -- the Q3, Q4. We also did a quite with our order uptick in our EV company for the wedge bonders and memory is also picking up. So if you are asking about '25, I think many people have an optimistic view about '25. With the Gartner predicted 75%, these will actually trigger broader recovery in our many end market.

但從我們的回饋來看，汽車將會回歸。我們——第三季、第四季。我們的電動車公司的楔形鍵合機和記憶體的訂單量也有所增加。所以如果你問的是25年，我想很多人對25年都很樂觀。正如 Gartner 預測的 75% 那樣，這實際上將引發我們眾多終端市場的更廣泛復甦。

So you asked about seasonality, this is our view. We probably can see growth into the Q1 because of our utilization rate is inching up close to 80%, but also I think it's not impossible if we see flat to slightly minor shift from negative over Q1 and Q2, which are stronger recovery in the -- our Q3, Q4 '25.

所以你問到季節性，這是我們的觀點。由於我們的利用率已接近 80%，我們可能在第一季看到成長，但同時我認為，如果我們看到第一季和第二季的負成長持平或略有減弱，那麼在 2025 年第三季和第四季將出現更強勁的復甦，這並非不可能。

Hope I answered your questions.

希望我回答了你的問題。

Krish Sankar, TD Cowen.

克里什·桑卡爾（Krish Sankar），TD Cowen。

Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking my question. I had a few of them. First, Fusen, a clarification. When you said December quarter flat versus September, was it for revenues or utilization rate?

是的，你好。感謝您回答我的問題。我有幾個。首先，Fusen，澄清一下。您說 12 月季度與 9 月季度持平，是指營收還是利用率？

Actually, because we also guide in $180 million for Q4, right, and actually, Q3, we just finish with $181 million. So I mean flat is the revenue. By utilization, we are actually seeing continue to inching up some areas already over 80% for the quarter. And (inaudible) right now, I think, is 75%. We do expect in Q4 we'll go to higher 70%, but still not touch 80% yet. So that's why I answer, if asked seasonality, it's hard to gauge. Because of our recovery expected by Gartner, we will have a chance maybe to go up in Q1, but it's also not impossible we see flat or also -- or actually, many, many minor (inaudible) supported by our second half based on a recovery.

實際上，因為我們也預計第四季的營收為 1.8 億美元，而實際上，第三季我們的營收剛好達到 1.81 億美元。所以我的意思是收入持平。從利用率來看，我們實際上看到本季一些領域的利用率持續緩慢上升，已經超過 80%。而（聽不清楚）現在，我認為是 75%。我們確實預計第四季的增幅將達到 70%，但仍未達到 80%。所以我的回答是，如果問季節性，就很難判斷。由於 Gartner 預計我們的業務將復甦，我們可能在第一季實現成長，但也並非不可能看到業務持平，或者實際上，在復甦的基礎上，下半年將獲得許多、許多小幅（聽不清楚）的支援。

Got it. Got it. And then just on that point, Fusen, historically, OSAT had an appetite to add capacity and utilization rate is about 90% given the lead times were not that long. So is that a fair assumption in that case, maybe the recovery is truly later sometime next year till we get to 90%? Or do you think there’s an appetite to add capacity even below 90%?

知道了。知道了。就這一點而言，Fusen，從歷史上看，OSAT 有興趣增加產能，由於交貨時間不是那麼長，利用率約為 90％。那麼在這種情況下，這是一個合理的假設嗎？或者您認為即使低於 90% 的產能仍有增加的意願？

Well, I think it's 80% trigger additional buy. Actually, we do see OSAT start to contributing. We actually start from our Q3 and Q4 also for China. We also have memory OSAT, also start to have a buy. So we feel OSAT easily in that capacity now.

嗯，我認為 80% 會觸發額外購買。實際上，我們確實看到 OSAT 開始做出貢獻。事實上，我們也從第三季和第四季開始針對中國市場。我們也有記憶體OSAT，也開始有購買。所以我們現在很容易感受到 OSAT 的這種能力。

Got it. Got it. And then two quick questions on advanced packaging. One is, can you talk a little bit about the status of the TCB qual on the Taiwan foundry? What is going on there?

知道了。知道了。然後是關於先進封裝的兩個快速問題。一是，能否談談台灣代工廠的TCB資質現況？那裡發生了什麼事？

Okay. So Krish, I think we actually have engagement and qualification. Actually have multiple projects over there. And this [price] is we believe, is going to be a growth for us in the future. The qualification is a full Fluxless. And this is for the high-end products, and it's Fluxless. And for the Fluxless, we are the only ones in the mass production in the full industry. And qualification actually takes a long time.

好的。所以 Krish，我認為我們實際上具有參與度和資格。實際上那裡有多個項目。我們相信，這個（價格）在未來會為我們帶來成長。該資格是完全無通量的。這是針對高端產品的，並且不含助焊劑。對於 Fluxless，我們是整個產業中唯一一家進行量產的公司。而且獲得資格實際上需要很長時間。

The previous IDM company, we took across to two years to finish it. So far in our opinion, we believe all of these come out positive and we have early -- the production for the first customer is intended for first half of '25. We feel positive and we have initial discussions about capacity and also delivery schedule at the early stage. So we expect to reach new -- near the milestone and we will be able to update you on maybe in our December call or November call.

之前的IDM公司，我們花了兩年的時間才完成。到目前為止，我們認為，所有這些都是積極的，而且我們已經提前為第一位客戶進行了生產，預計在25年上半年。我們感到很積極，並且在早期就產能和交貨時間表進行了初步討論。因此，我們希望達到新的里程碑，我們將能夠在 12 月或 11 月的電話會議上向您通報最新情況。

Got it. And then final question, I think in the last time, Fusen, you mentioned FY25 advanced packaging, dedicated AP revenue could be $200 million. Are you still sticking with that number or do you think it might be lower than that?

知道了。最後一個問題，我記得上次 Fusen 您提到 FY25 先進封裝專用 AP 收入可能達到 2 億美元。您仍堅持這個數字嗎？

Chris, could you repeat?

克里斯，你能重複一遍嗎？

I think last quarter, you said in fiscal '25, advanced packaging revenues could be $200 million dedicated AP. Is that still the case?

我認為上個季度，您說過在 25 財年，先進封裝收入可能達到 2 億美元專用 AP。現在還是這樣嗎？

So this is our forecast. Our TCB alone in '25, last quarter, we forecast about $100 million. But for dedicated advanced packaging, this including TCB, also including of vertical wire, and also including our system in packaging. So all in together, we're close to $200 million. And since (inaudible) more engagement in our site. We are doing a long-term forecast at this moment. We probably will be able to choose you in the next couple of quarters.

這就是我們的預測。光是 25 年，也就是上個季度，我們預測的 TCB 就約為 1 億美元。但對於專用的先進封裝，這包括TCB，也包括垂直線，也包括我們的封裝系統。所以總的來說，我們的收入接近 2 億美元。且由於（聽不清楚）我們網站的參與度更高。我們目前正在做長期預測。我們很可能將在接下來的幾個季度內選擇您。

Tom Diffely, D.A. Davidson.

湯姆·迪菲利（Tom Diffely），地方檢察官戴維森。

Yeah. Good afternoon. Appreciate the question. When I look at the guidance for flat next quarter at $180 million, is there any kind of shift between end markets or products or is it going to be fairly similar to what you had this quarter?

是的。午安.我很感謝你提出這個問題。當我看到下個季度的預期收入持平於 1.8 億美元時，終端市場或產品之間是否會有任何變化，還是會與本季的情況大致相同？

It actually is quite similar compared to Q3.

實際上與 Q3 相比非常相似。

Okay. And then, Fusen, when you looked at the slides you produced and you gave a five-year average for the different segments. When you look over the next five years, do you think that those are pretty good numbers or do you think some of those markets were overstated with the big upturn or understated because of growth drivers?

好的。然後，Fusen，當您查看所製作的幻燈片時，您給出了不同部分的五年平均值。展望未來五年，您是否認為這些數字相當不錯，或者您認為其中一些市場由於大幅增長而被高估，或者由於增長動力而被低估？

Tom, are you talking about which number, can you (multiple speakers)

湯姆，你說的是哪個數字，你能嗎（多位發言者）

Yeah. On your slides, you had a five-year average for the different segments. And I was wondering if those five-year segment -- the five-year averages are good on a go-forward basis or do you think they are over or understated for the next five years?

是的。在您的投影片上，您有不同部分的五年平均值。我想知道這些五年期分段——五年期平均值在未來基礎上是否良好，或者您認為它們在未來五年內被高估或低估了？

So Tom, it's Lester. So we believe that -- those numbers are good going forward on a five-year basis. As a projection going forward, there might even be a little bit of an upside going forward.

那麼湯姆，我是萊斯特。因此我們相信 — — 從五年來看，這些數字是好的。作為未來的預測，未來甚至可能會有一點點上行空間。

Okay. Great. And then finally, Lester, when you look at the Project W that was canceled last quarter, what was the cost associated with that? And have those expenses or costs been reallocated?

好的。偉大的。最後，萊斯特，當您查看上個季度取消的 W 項目時，與之相關的成本是多少？這些費用或成本是否已重新分配？

So I think for Project W, there's minimal costs associated with in Q3 and in Q4 going forward. And we have reallocated those resources. I think in my remarks, I mentioned that we kept OpEx down because we reallocated those resources in an efficient manner to project that is -- that was more in demand for the quarter and going forward.

因此我認為對於 W 專案而言，未來第三季和第四季的相關成本將很小。我們已經重新分配了這些資源。我想在我的演講中我提到，我們保持了較低的營運支出，因為我們以有效的方式重新分配了這些資源，以便預測本季及未來的需求將更大。

Dave Duley, Steelhead Securities.

Steelhead Securities 的 Dave Duley。

Thanks for taking my questions. A couple. Let’s start on advanced packaging. I was wondering if you could just help us understand the applications that you have thus far kind of captured in order to produce this 10x growth in your thermocompression bonding. And just digging into that puzzle just a little bit further, I think we all recollect your first customer here was a big IDM CPU provider. If you could kind of just help us understand at that big customer, what -- are you doing chip-on-wafer or chip-on-substrate? And how does that help you win business at the big foundry?

感謝您回答我的問題。一對。讓我們從先進封裝開始。我想知道您是否可以幫助我們了解您迄今為止所掌握的應用，以實現熱壓鍵合的 10 倍增長。再進一步深入探討這個難題，我想我們都記得，您的第一位客戶是一家大型 IDM CPU 供應商。如果您能幫助我們了解那個大客戶，您是在做晶圓上晶片還是基板上晶片？這如何幫助您贏得大型代工廠的業務？

So Dave, I think we start to get a more significant revenue in '21. So it's about less than $10 million. So within four years, I think, first, we start with OSAT. After OSAT, we are working with IDM company and we developed actually a chip-to-substrate. And in the meantime, I think, when we worked with OSAT, we also are working with the customers who focus on silicon photonics and also like 3D sensing.

所以戴夫，我認為我們將在21年開始獲得更可觀的收入。所以大約不到 1000 萬美元。因此，我認為，四年內，我們首先從 OSAT 開始。繼 OSAT 之後，我們正在與 IDM 公司合作，並且實際開發了晶片到基板的技術。同時，我認為，當我們與 OSAT 合作時，我們也在與專注於矽光子學和 3D 感測的客戶合作。

So right now, I think we have a special market, silicon photonics, silicon sensing, and also have actually more important heterogeneous integration. So I think last year, we (inaudible) was $76 million to $80 million. So we actually start to focus. We believe in the features. They are few big areas for us.

所以現在，我認為我們有一個特殊的市場，矽光子學、矽感，以及實際上更重要的異構整合。所以我認為去年我們（聽不清楚）的收入是 7,600 萬到 8,000 萬美元。所以我們實際上開始集中註意力。我們相信這些功能。對我們來說，它們只是少數幾個大區域。

One is the OSAT. We actually feel very comfortable. We continue to get more revenue and more application over there. And number two is a chip-to-substrate. I think we are doing very well. What we are focusing right now actually is going to be a chip-to-wafer. We believe this is a huge market as well as foundry player. So with these two areas, I think we probably fuel our growth for the next couple years.

一個是OSAT。我們確實感覺非常舒服。我們在那裡繼續獲得更多的收入和更多的應用。第二個是晶片到基板。我認為我們做得很好。我們現在關注的實際上是晶片到晶圓。我們相信這是一個巨大的市場，也是代工廠商龐大的市場。因此，我認為憑藉這兩個領域，我們可能會在未來幾年推動我們的成長。

And does the outsourcing part of the [co-los] process to the OSAT? And I think that's the OS part, the chip on substrates, is that a beneficial trend for you guys -- given that you already have relationships with these OSATs and they're using your equipment? Or do you have to go in and kind of prove yourself completely new there?

那麼，[co-los] 流程的外包部分是否交給 OSAT 呢？我認為這是作業系統部分，基板上的晶片，這對你們來說是一個有利的趨勢嗎——考慮到你們已經與這些 OSAT 建立了關係，並且他們正在使用你們的設備？還是你必須進去證明自己是那裡的全新人選？

It is beneficial to us.

這對我們是有好處的。

I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.

對不起。我沒聽到。

It's beneficial to us.

這對我們有益。

Okay. Final question from me is just on the core business. A couple of years ago, it was obviously running at much, much higher levels. And I am just kind of curious, is there any reason that you can see that, that core business wouldn’t achieve peak levels of revenue again like it was a few years ago, given the appropriate circumstances in the end markets?

好的。我的最後一個問題是關於核心業務的。幾年前，它的運行水平顯然要高得多。我只是有點好奇，您是否認為，在終端市場狀況適當的情況下，核心業務不會像幾年前那樣再次達到收入高峰？

Well, so David, you are asking about the core business, right? So actually the year 2022, 2021, I think we basically went up from like (inaudible) to about 1.5. This is 2.6 growth, 2.6x. That's very, very significant. So that's why I think our '21, '22, 1.5. Actually a lot of customer, they overbuy, a lot of our core business buy. Therefore, I think we are down to this level.

那麼，大衛，你問的是核心業務，對嗎？所以實際上到 2022 年、2021 年，我認為我們基本上從（聽不清楚）上升到了 1.5 左右。這是2.6的成長，2.6倍。這非常非常重要。所以這就是為什麼我認為我們的'21、'22、1.5。實際上很多客戶都購買太多，我們的許多核心業務都買太多。因此我認為我們已經到了這個水平。

But if you look at it, even Gartner prediction is correct. The 17% unit growth, just assume half of that is a, say AI related or whatever. Even at 8%, right, we'll achieve largely of our capacity by -- for our core business. I give you a EBITDA of normal ball bonder business. Even before COVID, it's about $500 million to $600 million. So we trigger capacity by -- I think you can calculate. We are still -- this year's year less than $400 million for ball bonder.

但如果你看一下，你會發現 Gartner 的預測也是正確的。17% 的單位成長率，假設其中一半是與 AI 相關或其他什麼的。即使只有 8%，我們也將透過核心業務實現大部分產能。我給你一個正常球焊機業務的 EBITDA。即使在 COVID 之前，這個數字也約為 5 億到 6 億美元。因此，我們透過觸發容量——我想你可以計算一下。今年我們的球焊機投資仍不到 4 億美元。

So we believe we have a huge opportunity in core business. Also our new technology and the value for the future in ball bonder including VFO and also in wedge bonder of HPI. So we do believe semiconductor downturn normally no more than a six quarter. We already have eight quarter. Including this quarter, maybe nine quarter. So longer downtime, actually, we believe. (inaudible) somewhere I believe stronger and a strong (inaudible)

因此我們相信我們在核心業務方面擁有巨大的機會。此外，我們的新技術以及包括VFO在內的球焊機和HPI楔焊機的未來價值也都反映在內。因此，我們確實相信半導體產業的衰退通常不會超過六個季度。我們已經有八個季度了。包括本季，也許是九個季度。因此，我們認為停機時間實際上會更長。 （聽不清楚）我相信在某個地方更強大，更強大（聽不清楚）

Yeah. The longer you stay under the curve, the bigger you will be over the part -- out of the part of the curve when the things get better, right? Everything kind of evens out that way. Okay. Thank you.

是的。您處於曲線之下的時間越長，當情況好轉時，您超出曲線範圍的部分就越大，對嗎？一切都以這種方式變得均勻了。好的。謝謝。

Ross Cole, Needham & Company.

羅斯·科爾，尼德漢姆公司。

Hi. Thank you for taking my question. I noticed that you mentioned you expect the December quarter to be flat compared to the September quarter. And you are expecting gross margin to remain roughly the same area for the two quarters as well? Thank you.

你好。感謝您回答我的問題。我注意到您提到預計 12 月季度的業績將與 9 月季度持平。您預計這兩個季度的毛利率將保持大致相同嗎？謝謝。

So actually, I think maybe that was a high -- it's Lester. I don't think we guide into the December quarter. I think what Fusen said was actually the September quarter, which we just guided to, is flat to the third quarter. He did mention for the December quarter, which now first fiscal quarter for '25. There is some uptakes, but there may also be some seasonality in there. So I think right now it's per se.

所以實際上，我認為也許那是一個高潮——那是萊斯特。我認為我們不會對 12 月季度做出預期。我認為 Fusen 所說的實際上是我們剛剛預測的 9 月季度與第三季度持平。他確實提到了 12 月季度，也就是 25 財年的第一季。有一些吸收，但也可能有一些季節性。所以我認為現在它本身就是這樣。

As far as gross margin is concerned, yeah, I think we believe that gross margin will probably stay around the 47% level through the rest of the calendar year. But then we'll pick up in the calendar year '25 as some of our cost reduction initiatives kicked in as well with some of our newer products, which certainly get traction, but we'll have a lot more traction in '25. And those are much higher-margin products. So we still are aiming towards a 50% gross margin on a corporate-wide basis.

就毛利率而言，是的，我認為我們相信今年剩餘時間內毛利率可能將保持在 47% 左右的水平。但是，隨著我們的一些成本削減舉措也在我們的一些新產品中發揮作用，我們的業績將在 25 年開始回升，這些新產品肯定會獲得關注，但我們在 25 年會獲得更大的關注。這些產品的利潤率更高。因此，我們仍然以全公司 50% 的毛利率為目標。

Christian Schwab, Craig-Hallum Capital Group.

克雷格-哈勒姆資本集團 (Craig-Hallum Capital Group) 的克里斯蒂安·施瓦布 (Christian Schwab)。

Great. Just, Fusen, other than Gartner enthusiasm for revenue growth, your semiconductor unit growth, is any of your dialogue with any of your customers suggesting that the first half of calendar ‘25 that they plan on giving you a bunch of orders?

偉大的。只是，Fusen，除了 Gartner 對收入成長、半導體部門成長的熱情之外，您與任何客戶的對話中是否暗示他們計劃在 2025 年上半年給您大量訂單？

I think that everybody we talk, optimistic over '25 because Gartner has been very long. Actually, in the short term, we have been in this chart for six to eight quarter already. If you look at it the-energy- and historically, we don't see it this. That means that our market is stabilized. And in the future, we have a new product to offer.

我認為我們交談過的每個人都對 25 年持樂觀態度，因為 Gartner 的研究已經很長了。實際上，從短期來看，我們已經出現在這個圖表中六到八個季度了。如果你從能源和歷史角度來觀察，我們不會發現這種情況。這意味著我們的市場已經穩定了。未來我們也將推出新的產品。

But short term, I think it is really hard to judge. In the meantime, the utilization rate is inching to 80%, right? 75%, we do believe -- finish Q4 would be a high-78%, and that's why it's given trigger capacity wise. Maybe customers here have little budget concern and the macro all is -- so if you're asking me about our Q1 and Q2, it can go up, but it can also be flat. Also seasonality, we don't expect a major one. But actually, we are quite bullish so as many customers we talk to '25, you know, will be a good year.

但短期內，我認為很難判斷。同時，利用率正慢慢達到 80%，對嗎？75%，我們確實相信——第四季的完成率將達到 78% 的高位，這就是為什麼它具有觸發容量。也許這裡的客戶不太關心預算，宏觀情況都是如此——所以如果你問我我們的第一季和第二季的情況，它可能會上升，但也可能會持平。此外，我們預計季節性不會有太大影響。但實際上，我們非常樂觀，因為與我們交談的許多客戶都表示，25年將是豐收的一年。

And then just further clarity, what type of applications or end markets are people most excited about a recovery in ‘25 then, automotive, industrial, et cetera?

然後進一步明確一下，人們最期待 25 年復甦的應用或終端市場是什麼類型，汽車、工業等等？

Okay. I can tell you. Of course, we look at our advanced packaging and we also look at the wedge bonder, a lot of auto, industrial, and mainly is ball bonder, right? So ball bonder actually, the customer is in general semi and is also auto and also in AI.

好的。我可以告訴你。當然，我們會關注先進的封裝，也會關注楔形鍵合機，很多汽車、工業的，主要是球形鍵合機，對吧？因此，實際上，球焊機的客戶一般是半自動的，也有人工智慧的。

So I think the application is quite broad and I mentioned the average normal year of a ball bonder should be 500 to 600, right, even before COVID and we have been in a prolonged downturn. And we do believe a little bit of a broader recovery. I think we probably will be the first one to see that recovery.

因此，我認為應用範圍相當廣泛，我提到過，球焊機的平均正常年產量應該是 500 到 600，對吧，即使在 COVID 之前，我們也一直處於長期的低迷之中。我們確實相信會出現更大範圍的復甦。我認為我們可能是第一個看到復甦的人。

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I'd like to turn the floor back over to Joe for closing comments.

謝謝。目前沒有其他問題。我想將發言權交還給喬，請他發表最後評論。

Thank you, Alicia, and thank you all for joining today's call. Over the coming quarter, we'll be presenting at several conferences or roadshows. As always, please feel free to follow-up directly with any additional questions. This concludes today's call. Have a great day, everyone.

謝謝你，艾莉西亞，也謝謝大家參加今天的電話會議。在接下來的一個季度，我們將在幾場會議或路演上進行展示。像往常一樣，如果您有任何其他問題，請隨時直接與我們聯繫。今天的電話會議到此結束。祝大家有個愉快的一天。