ING Groep NV (ING) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Welcoming you to ING's 4Q 2024 credit update call. Before handing this conference call over to Jaap, Group Treasurer of ING Group. let me first say that today's comments may include forward-looking statements. Such as statements regarding future developments in our business, expectation for our future financial performance, and any statement not involving a historical fact.

歡迎您參加 ING 2024 年第四季信用更新電話會議。在將本次電話會議交給 ING 集團財務主管 Jaap 之前。首先我要說的是，今天的評論可能包含前瞻性陳述。例如有關我們業務未來發展的陳述、對我們未來財務表現的預期以及任何不涉及歷史事實的陳述。

Actual results may differ materially from those projected in any forward looking statement. A discussion of factors that may cause actual results to differ from those in any forward-looking statement is contained in our public filings.

實際結果可能與任何前瞻性聲明中預測的結果有重大差異。我們的公開文件中討論了可能導致實際結果與任何前瞻性聲明中的結果不同的因素。

Including our most recent annual report on Form 20-F filed with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission and our earnings press release as posted on our website today.

包括我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的最新 20-F 表年度報告以及今天在我們網站上發布的收益新聞稿。

Furthermore, nothing in today's commands constitutes an offer to sell or a solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. Good afternoon, Jaap, over to you.

此外，今天的命令中不構成出售要約或購買任何證券的要約邀請。下午好，Jaap，交給你了。

Thank you, operator. Welcome all and thank you for joining us today for the ING credit update call around our four quarter 2024 results. My name is Jaap Kes, and I'm the group treasurer for ING Group. Today I'm here to get a Sjoerd Miltenberg, the head of Investor Relations.

謝謝您，接線生。歡迎大家，感謝您今天參加 ING 信用更新電話會議，了解我們 2024 年四個季度的業績。我叫 Jaap Kes，是 ING 集團的集團財務主管。今天我來這裡是為了認識投資者關係主管 Sjoerd Miltenberg。

In this call, we will take you to the 4Q '24 results as well as INC's capital positions and issuance plan -- plans for the coming year. At the end of the call, we will have some time for Q&A.

在本次電話會議中，我們將向您介紹 INC 的 24 年第四季業績以及 INC 的資本狀況和發行計劃——未來一年的計劃。通話結束後，我們將留出一些時間進行問答。

Before we get started, I would like to point out that the credit update slides to accompany this call are available for download from our website. After the presentation, we'll be happy to take your questions.

在我們開始之前，我想指出的是，本次電話會議的信用更新投影片可以從我們的網站下載。演示結束後，我們很樂意回答您的提問。

With that, let me hand over to you Sjoerd.

說完這些，讓我把 Sjoerd 交給你。

Thank you, Yaap. Let me start with slide 2, demonstrating the outstanding commercial growth that we have achieved in 2024.

謝謝你，Yaap。讓我從第二張投影片開始，展示我們在 2024 年實現的卓越商業成長。

We exceeded our annual growth target for mobile primary customers, adding almost 1.1 million mobile primary customers during 2024. We've also shown significant growth in our loan book of 4%, primarily driven by mortgages.

我們超額完成了行動主要客戶的年度成長目標，2024 年將增加近 110 萬行動主要客戶。我們的貸款帳面也顯示出 4% 的顯著成長，這主要得益於抵押貸款。

As a result of this growth in retail, 52% of our risk weighted assets is now allocated to retail banking. This is in line with our strategy to increase the capital allocation to retail banking to 55% by 2027 as communicated during the Capital Markets Day.

由於零售業務的成長，我們 52% 的風險加權資產目前分配給零售銀行業務。這符合我們在資本市場日期間宣布的到 2027 年將零售銀行資本配置率提高到 55% 的策略。

Netcore deposit growth was at a record level of 7% in 2024. Retail banking benefited from continued customer growth and successful promotional campaigns, while the effects of our focus to increase deposits in wholesale banking also became visible.

2024 年，Netcore 存款成長率達到創紀錄的 7%。零售銀行業務受惠於客戶的持續成長和成功的促銷活動，同時，我們致力於增加批發銀行業務存款的效果也已顯現。

Total customer balances growth, so lending and deposits combined amounted to 6% in 2024, exceeding the expectation of 4% we said during the Capital Markets Day. Now let me take you to slide 5.

總客戶餘額成長，因此貸款和存款合計到 2024 年將達到 6%，超過了我們在資本市場日期間所說的 4% 的預期。現在讓我帶您看投影片 5。

On slides 5, we show that our business growth is also leading to strong revenue generation. Volume growth in both lending and liabilities has supported the increased net interest income over the last couple of years and has helped us to offset the margin pressure from decreasing rates in 2024.

在幻燈片 5 上，我們展示了我們的業務成長也帶來了強勁的收入成長。貸款和負債規模的成長支撐了過去幾年淨利息收入的成長，並幫助我們抵消了 2024 年利率下降帶來的利潤壓力。

What is clearly visible on the slide is that the total net interest income is at a structurally higher level in a positive rate environment. Fee income grew by over 11% year-on-year, driven by the strong increase in the number of clients and our initiatives to further diversify the income base. This led to a record total income in 2024, and we expect income in 2025 to be at roughly the same level.

投影片上可以清楚看到的是，在正利率環境下，總淨利息收入處於結構性較高水準。由於客戶數量的強勁增長和我們進一步多元化收入基礎的舉措，費用收入同比增長超過 11%。這導致 2024 年的總收入創下歷史新高，我們預計 2025 年的收入將大致維持在同一水平。

Now let's zoom in a bit further on the fourth quarter. And for that, I would like to take you to slide 17.

現在讓我們進一步看一下第四季。為此，我想請大家看第 17 張投影片。

17 talks about our net interest income. The liability margin decreased to 100 basis points in the fourth quarter, mainly driven by lower replicating income following the decrease in interest rates since mid-2024. The additional lower margin volumes that we attracted in wholesale banking had an impact on the average liability margin as well.

17談論我們的淨利息收入。第四季負債利潤率下降至 100 個基點，主要原因是自 2024 年中期以來利率下降導致複製收入下降。我們在批發銀行業務中吸引的額外較低保證金量也對平均負債保證金產生了影響。

The average liability margin for the full year was 110 basis points, which is in line with our guidance at the start of the year. The same goes for the average lending margin, which was 130 basis points for the full year, and stable quarter-on-quarter.

全年平均負債利潤率為110個基點，與我們年初的預期一致。平均貸款利潤率亦是如此，全年為130個基點，且較上季維持穩定。

The overall net interest margin, which takes the developments in the balance sheet -- which takes the developments in the balance sheet into account, decreased by 1 basis point as the lower liability NII was compensated by higher treasury NII and the shorter balance sheet at the end of the year.

考慮到資產負債表的發展情況，整體淨利差下降了 1 個基點，因為較低的負債 NII 被較高的國庫 NII 和年末較短的資產負債表所抵消。

Now moving to slide 18. Here we demonstrate our ability to maintain a strong liability NII also in a lower rate environment. The graph on the left shows the forward curve as per the end of December 2024 compared to the end of September 2024, with rates materially -- marginally higher at the end of the year.

現在轉到第 18 張投影片。我們在此展示了我們在較低利率環境下維持強勁負債 NII 的能力。左側的圖表顯示了 2024 年 12 月底與 2024 年 9 月底的遠期曲線，年底的利率大幅上漲。

You can see the impact of this development or growth replicating income in the graph in the middle of the slide. Based on the current interest rate curve, we remain confident that we will be able to manage our liability margin at a level of between 100 basis points and 110 basis points over the longer term. For 2025 we expect the margin to end up at around 100 basis points.

您可以在投影片中間的圖表中看到這種發展或成長複製收入的影響。基於目前的利率曲線，我們仍然有信心在較長時期內將我們的負債保證金管理在 100 個基點至 110 個基點之間的水平。到 2025 年，我們預計利潤率將達到 100 個基點左右。

Turning to slide 19. Our fee growth year-on-year was again double digit at 14%, primarily driven by structural revenue drivers. Growth in retail was partly driven by investment products, reflecting growth in active investment product accounts and an increase in both assets on the management and customer trading activity.

翻到第 19 張投影片。我們的費用年增率再次達到兩位數，達到 14%，這主要得益於結構性收入驅動因素。零售額的成長部分受到投資產品的推動，反映了活躍投資產品帳戶的成長以及管理資產和客戶交易活動的增加。

Daily banking fees rose on the back of strong customer growth and an updated pricing for payment packages. In addition, retail banking grew its fee income from lending and insurance products. The increase in fee income and wholesale banking was mainly attributable to higher fees from lending.

由於客戶數量強勁成長以及支付套餐價格更新，每日銀行費用有所上漲。此外，零售銀行業務來自貸款和保險產品的費用收入也有所增加。費用收入和批發銀行業務的成長主要歸因於貸款費用的增加。

Next to slide 20. Total expenses in 2024 increased by 4.8% compared to 2023, and we ended up at just over EUR12 billion in cost for the full year. Expenses excluding regulatory cost and incidental 5% higher. This increase was mainly driven by the impact of inflation or staff expenses reflecting salary indexation and CLA increases across most of our markets. Certain effects -- developments, in particular the weakening of the Euro also contributed.

在第 20 張投影片旁。2024 年的總支出與 2023 年相比增加了 4.8%，全年成本略高於 120 億歐元。費用不包括監管成本和雜費（高出 5%）。這一增長主要是受通貨膨脹或員工費用的影響，反映了大多數市場的工資指數化和 CLA 增長。某些影響 — — 尤其是歐元的疲軟也造成了一定影響。

We also continued investing in our business and we had to pay higher VAT following the implementation of the Danske Bank ruling in the Netherlands. Operational efficiencies compensated for a large part of these increases as we continue to digitize the services to further increase operational leverage.

我們也繼續投資我們的業務，並且在荷蘭丹麥銀行裁決實施後，我們不得不支付更高的增值稅。隨著我們繼續將服務數位化以進一步提高營運槓桿，營運效率彌補了這些成長的很大一部分。

Well, onto risk cost on the next slide, so slide 21. Total risk cost were EUR299 million this quarter, or 18 basis points of average customer lending. Which is in line with our full year risk cost as well and which is below our through the cycle average.

好的，下一張投影片討論風險成本，也就是第 21 張投影片。本季總風險成本為 2.99 億歐元，佔平均客戶貸款的 18 個基點。這與我們的全年風險成本相符，且低於我們的周期平均值。

Stage 2 credit outstanding rose, mainly reflecting the reclassification of low default portfolios in wholesale banking for which provisioning overlays have been taken, as well as the implementation of an enhanced early warning system for mortgages and retail banking. The stage 3 ratio remained low at 1.7%, with a slight increase quarter-on-quarter due to the shorter balance sheet at year end.

第二階段信貸未償還餘額增加，主要反映了批發銀行業務中低違約組合的重新分類（已提取撥備覆蓋），以及抵押貸款和零售銀行業務強化預警系統的實施。第三階段比率仍維持在1.7%的低位，由於年末資產負債表較短，較上季略有增加。

So to summarize, 2024 was not a good year with outstanding commercial growth and strong financial results. For 2025, let's go to slide 26.

總而言之，2024 年並不是一個商業成長突出、財務業績強勁的好年頭。對於 2025 年，我們來看第 26 張投影片。

In 2025, we expect total income to remain strong as we continue to benefit from volume growth in both lending and liabilities and from a further 5% to 10% growth in fee income. We maintain our focused on cost control and operational efficiencies whereby we will make selective investments to facilitate further business growth. This brings the total expenses to around EUR12.5 billion to EUR12.7 billion in 2025.

到 2025 年，我們預計總收入將保持強勁，因為我們將繼續受益於貸款和負債量的增長以及費用收入的進一步 5% 至 10% 的增長。我們將繼續專注於成本控制和營運效率，並進行選擇性的投資以促進進一步的業務成長。這使得 2025 年總支出將達到約 125 億歐元至 127 億歐元。

Our CET1 ratio will continue to converge towards our target of around 12.5% by the end of 2025. We will update the market on our capital distribution plans with our next quarterly results. Taking all of this into account, we aim for a return on equity of more than 12% in 2025, while also reconfirming our targets for 2027 as communicated at our Capital Markets Day last summer.

到 2025 年底，我們的 CET1 比率將繼續朝 12.5% 左右的目標靠攏。我們將根據下一季的業績向市場更新我們的資本分配計劃。考慮到所有這些因素，我們的目標是在 2025 年實現股本回報率超過 12%，同時也重申了我們在去年夏天資本市場日上宣布的 2027 年目標。

With that, I would like to hand it over to you, Jaap.

說完這些，我想把它交給你，賈普。

I think you should Let's start by looking at the quarterly risk weighted asset developments and turning to slides 28 of the deck. Overall, our risk rated assets increased by EUR5.2 billion in the fourth quarter, including EUR3 billion of each impact, which CET1 ratio neutral due to our hedging program.

我認為你應該讓我們先看看季度風險加權資產的發展情況，然後翻到第 28 張投影片。總體而言，我們的風險資產在第四季度增加了 52 億歐元，其中各項影響增加 30 億歐元，由於我們的對沖計劃，CET1 比率保持中立。

Excluding these FX impacts, the credit risk credit assets increased by EUR2.4 billion. This can be broken down into an increase of EUR3.4 billion due to business growth and in particular our mortgage book. A EUR1.2 billion decrease driven by an improved overall profile of the loan book, minus EUR1.3 billion from model updates, and this includes a further EUR2.5 billion reversal of the EUR6.5 billion temporary increase in the other way that we took in 2Q '24.

除去這些外匯影響，信用風險信貸資產增加了24億歐元。由於業務成長，特別是我們的抵押貸款帳簿的成長，這可以分解為34億歐元的增加。由於貸款帳簿整體狀況的改善，減少了 12 億歐元，減去模型更新帶來的 13 億歐元，其中包括在 2024 年第二季以另一種方式逆轉 65 億歐元的臨時增加額 25 億歐元。

Operation and market is where as relatively stable this quarters. Bringing these developments together with the quarterly profitability and equity distributions, we will look at the capital developments on slide 29.

本季的營運和市場相對穩定。將這些發展與季度獲利能力和股權分配結合起來，我們將看到第 29 頁的資本發展。

This bar chart shows the quarterly development of our capital ratios. First, the CET1 decreased to 13.6% as the additional distribution of EUR2.5 billion, as announced last quarter, has been fully deducted this quarter. The cash component of the additional distribution was paid in January, and the ongoing share buyback is progressing well with more than 50% of the program completed by now.

這張長條圖顯示了我們的資本比率的季度發展。首先，由於上季宣布的25億歐元額外分配已在本季全部扣除，因此CET1下降至13.6%。額外分配的現金部分已於一月份支付，正在進行的股票回購進展順利，目前計劃已完成 50％ 以上。

In addition, a final cash dividend over 2024 of $0.71 per ordinary share is proposed, subject to AGM approval in April 2025. This is already reserved outside of CET1. With a CET1 ratio of 13.6%, ING holds EUR3 billion of capital in excess of around our around EUR12.5 billion CET1 target.

此外，還計劃在 2024 年派發每股普通股 0.71 美元的末期現金股息，但須經 2025 年 4 月年度股東大會批准。這已在 CET1 之外保留。ING 的 CET1 比率為 13.6%，持有的資本超過我們約 125 億歐元的 CET1 目標約 30 億歐元。

Second, our AT1 and T2 ratios remain stable at 2.4% and 3%, despite the switch we made in our reporting of the prudential value of these instruments from nominal to carrying value, which is in line with the EBA recommendation in the MREL monitoring report last year. As a result, our total capital at almost 19% is very comfortable.

其次，儘管我們在報告這些工具的審慎價值時從名義價值改為帳面價值，但我們的 AT1 和 T2 比率仍然穩定在 2.4% 和 3%，這與 EBA 在去年 MREL 監測報告中的建議一致。因此，我們的總資本幾乎達到19％，非常舒適。

Moving from total capital to total loss absorb or absorbing capacity. Let's move to slides 32 on TLAC and MREL. We show both the TLAC and MREL requirement measured against RWA on the left side, as well as against leverage on the right hand side.

從總資本轉向總損失吸收或吸收能力。讓我們轉到有關 TLAC 和 MREL 的第 32 張投影片。我們在左側顯示了根據 RWA 衡量的 TLAC 和 MREL 要求，在右側顯示了根據槓桿衡量的 TLAC 和 MREL 要求。

We plotted the year-end 2024 actuals against the final TLAC requirements and MREL requirements for 2025. As you can see, we are amply meeting these metrics RWA and leverage with sizable buffers. Although all metrics are relevant, it is clear RWA based MREL is the binding constraint, so this is the measure for us to manage.

我們將 2024 年年底的實際情況與 2025 年的最終 TLAC 要求和 MREL 要求進行了繪製。如您所見，我們充分滿足了這些指標 RWA 和槓桿率，並且擁有相當大的緩衝。雖然所有指標都是相關的，但很明顯基於 RWA 的 MREL 是約束條件，因此這是我們要管理的措施。

The roughly 4.2% (inaudible) requirements provides us a comfortable buffer of almost EUR14 billion against the requirements. Clearly to maintain this buffer we will need to come to the market in '25.

大約 4.2%（聽不清楚）的要求為我們提供了近 140 億歐元的舒適緩衝。顯然，為了維持這個緩衝，我們需要在25年進入市場。

Turning to slides 33. In '25, we plan to issue around EUR6 billion and EUR8 billion of HoldCo senior, which is a little bit lower than the EUR9.5 billion equivalent issued in '24. The planned issuance is driven by refinancing needs, accommodate risk great asset growth, and the continued aim to optimize our capital search by replacing CET1 by senior HoldCo over time.

翻到第 33 張投影片。25年，我們計劃發行約60億歐元和80億歐元的HoldCo優先債券，略低於24年發行的95億歐元。計劃發行是由再融資需求驅動的，以適應巨大的資產增長風險，並持續優化我們的資本搜索，隨著時間的推移，用高級 HoldCo 取代 CET1。

For AT1 and T2, we are comfortable with the current AT1 and T2 ratios at 2.4% and 3%. For AT1, the first upcoming call date for AT1 instrument is April '25 for the EUR1.25 billion. For T2, we have two bonds totalling EUR1.75 billion with the first call date in '25 in March and November respectively.

對於 AT1 和 T2，我們對目前 2.4% 和 3% 的 AT1 和 T2 比率感到滿意。對於 AT1，AT1 工具的第一個即將到來的贖回日期是 2025 年 4 月，金額為 12.5 億歐元。對於 T2，我們有兩支債券，總額為 17.5 億歐元，第一個贖回日期分別為 25 年 3 月和 11 月。

That very much details our plan on the capital side. If we move to the secured issuing side, we expect the issue between EUR5 billion and EUR7 billion, also a little bit lower than the EUR8.3 billion issued in '24. Clearly, these will be coming from different issuance entities that we have and also includes RMBS.

這非常詳細地說明了我們在資本方面的計劃。如果我們轉向有擔保發行方面，我們預計發行額在 50 億歐元至 70 億歐元之間，也略低於 24 年發行的 83 億歐元。顯然，這些將來自我們擁有的不同發行實體，其中也包括 RMBS。

On HoldCo senior, we currently don't expect much other than potentially some local issuances in Australia in line with what we have done last year. As we mainly use instruments for internal ratio management and general funding purposes, this can obviously change in case of any unforeseen energy developments.

對於 HoldCo 優先債券，我們目前不抱太大期望，除了可能在澳洲進行一些本地發行，類似於我們去年的做法。由於我們主要使用工具進行內部比率管理和一般融資用途，因此，如果出現任何不可預見的能源發展，這種情況顯然會改變。

Finally, and perhaps zooming out a bit further to the liability side of our balance sheets on slide 40. Here it shows that ING has a very stable liquidity profile, that three/fourth of the balance sheet is funded by customer reports, of which retail deposit is the main component -- Very stable. Within LCR of 143%, we feel that we have a very robust liquidity position.

最後，也許我們可以將範圍進一步縮小到第 40 頁資產負債表的負債方。這裡顯示，ING 的流動性狀況非常穩定，其資產負債表的四分之三由客戶報告提供資金，其中零售存款是主要組成部分——非常穩定。在 143% 的流動性覆蓋率內，我們認為我們的流動性狀況非常強勁。

So while we're happy with this stable funding source, we've seen the dynamics in the market change over the last 12 months, driven by the rate environments, the effects of quantitative tightening, and increased competition. Consequently, over the last years we put even more attention to managing our funding sources. We ran several discipline savings campaigns in various countries, but we also increased our liquidity buffers.

因此，雖然我們對這個穩定的資金來源感到滿意，但我們看到過去 12 個月市場動態發生了變化，這種變化受到利率環境、量化緊縮的影響以及競爭加劇的影響。因此，在過去幾年裡，我們更加重視資金來源的管理。我們在多個國家開展了多項紀律儲蓄活動，同時也增加了流動性緩衝。

Next to our LCR, which is supported by a conservative portfolio and sizable cash position, we maintain large pools of ECB eligible assets consisting of retained cover bonds, retained securitizations, and credit claims. We continue to focus on the increase of these pools of assets that can be transferred to liquidity rapidly if needed.

除了由保守的投資組合和大量現金頭寸支撐的流動性覆蓋率 (LCR) 之外，我們還維持著大量的 ECB 合格資產，包括保留的擔保債券、保留的證券化和信用債權。我們將繼續致力於增加這些資產池，以便在需要時迅速轉化為流動性。

With that, I provided my key points and suggest we open the floor for some questions. Operator, please.

這樣，我就闡述了我的要點，並建議我們開始回答一些問題。接線員，請說。

(Operator Instructions) Ryan Butkus, Lord Abbett.

（操作員指示）瑞安·巴特克斯（Ryan Butkus），阿貝特勳爵。

Hi, just a question as it relates to slide 21. You mentioned some changes pertaining to stage 2, and I was wondering maybe if you could perhaps expand upon what those changes were within wholesale and also retail banking and if this was ING specific or more industry related.

你好，我只想問一下與第 21 張投影片相關的問題。您提到了與第二階段有關的一些變化，我想知道您是否可以詳細說明批發銀行和零售銀行業務中的這些變化，以及這是否是 ING 特有的，還是與整個行業相關。

Yes, thank you, Ryan. Well, as I mentioned, so in particular for wholesale banking this related to a reclassification of part of the -- some of the portfolios, for which we have taken an overlay so there is no fundamental difference in how we look at these portfolios, but it's merely a change in methodology that we take here.

是的，謝謝你，瑞安。嗯，正如我所提到的，特別是對於批發銀行業務而言，這涉及到對部分投資組合的重新分類，對此我們進行了覆蓋，因此我們看待這些投資組合的方式沒有根本區別，但這只是我們在這裡採用的方法的改變。

On the retail side there, were some or there are some countries where we have also updated methodology, with respect to the early warning systems that we have in place there, again, no fundamental change into how we look at the quality of these assets but merely, an update to the methodology that we use.

在零售方面，我們也對一些國家的預警系統進行了方法更新，同樣，我們對這些資產品質的看法沒有發生根本性變化，而只是對所使用的方法進行了更新。

Okay, and maybe my second question relates to CRT or SRT related transactions, and I was curious to get your updated view of ING's use of these in the near future.

好的，也許我的第二個問題與 CRT 或 SRT 相關交易有關，我很好奇您對 ING 在不久的將來使用這些交易的最新看法。

Yeah, so we are not in a real rush and take a prudent approach to carefully assess the product and how it fits also ING. However, we do have a clear focus to optimize our capital efficiency, especially within the wholesale bank.

是的，所以我們並不著急，而是採取謹慎的態度仔細評估產品以及它如何適合 ING。然而，我們確實有一個明確的重點，那就是優化我們的資本效率，特別是在批發銀行內部。

And yeah, we do see value in adding SRTs to our capital management toolbox. We have the capabilities in house and as we move towards our target CET1 of 12.5%, the usage of SRTs becomes more relevant.

是的，我們確實看到將 SRT 添加到我們的資本管理工具箱中的價值。我們擁有內部能力，隨著我們朝著 12.5% 的目標 CET1 邁進，SRT 的使用變得更加重要。

So we have very little to zero where, yeah, peers really have 3.5% of the booking SRTs, so yeah, clearly some ground to win. Thanks.

因此，我們與同行的差距很小，同行確實擁有 3.5% 的預訂 SRT，所以，我們顯然有獲勝的空間。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

[Lee Strade], Citigroup.

[Lee Strade]，花旗集團。

Hello, good afternoon, and thank you for taking my question. One for me, please, and there were some press reports yesterday talking about potential to look at M&A for ING across different geographies. So just any thoughts there you have access you're looking to return, but your thoughts with regards to deploying that with bolt on acquisitions or just any thoughts just to help us understand what your intentions might be there would be much appreciated. Thank you.

您好，下午好，感謝您回答我的問題。請給我一個，昨天有一些新聞報道談到了 ING 在不同地區進行併購的潛力。因此，如果您有任何想法，您可以訪問您希望返回的內容，但是您關於透過附加收購來部署它的想法，或者只是任何想法，只是為了幫助我們了解您的意圖，我們將非常感激。謝謝。

Yes, thank you Lee. I think, our CEO Steve Rijswijk this morning also mentioned that we see very strong organic growth, of our business as also alluded to on the first page so growth in customers, growth in liabilities, growth in loans, but in addition to that we also have a clear strategy to grow, and that can be, organic but also inorganic.

是的，謝謝你，李。我認為，我們的執行長 Steve Rijswijk 今早也提到，我們的業務實現了非常強勁的有機成長，正如第一頁所提到的，客戶成長、負債成長、貸款成長，但除此之外，我們還有明確的成長策略，可以是有機的，也可以是無機的。

So if we come across targets that fit our profile that bring us capabilities that we currently don't have or bring us in market scale, we will look at that, but obviously also, under very strict guidelines, so in terms of, are we in terms of cultural fit, and then M&A can for sure be part of strategy execution and acceleration.

因此，如果我們遇到適合我們的目標，這些目標可以為我們帶來目前所不具備的能力或市場規模，我們就會考慮，但顯然也會受到非常嚴格的指導，因此就我們是否在文化契合度方面而言，併購肯定可以成為戰略執行和加速的一部分。

And just on that, I mean is there a preference to buy books of business or are you open to doing small bolt on banks to take the whole entity as well (inaudible) that factors in execution risks, IT costs, et cetera. Or is it really just ROE dependent?

就這一點而言，我的意思是，您是否傾向於購買業務帳簿，或者您是否願意透過小型附加銀行來接管整個實體（聽不清楚），其中考慮到執行風險、IT 成本等。或者它實際上僅僅依賴 ROE？

Well, I would say that we would look at assets that would generate or accelerate our strategy, and thereby diversify our income. So on the fee side would diversify our income in terms of segments in which we're active, so that would be the most logical step in terms of acceleration of strategy.

嗯，我想說我們會考慮那些可以產生或加速我們策略的資產，從而使我們的收入多樣化。因此，從費用方面來看，我們將根據活躍的領域來實現收入多元化，這是加速策略最合理的一步。

All right. Thank you very much for your comments.

好的。非常感謝您的評論。

(Operator Instructions) There are no questions coming through. I will now hand it back to Jaap for closing remarks.

(操作員指示) 沒有提出任何問題。現在我將發言交還給亞普，請他作最後發言。

Thank you, operator. And thank you all for joining this call today. Investor Relation team is available for potential follow up questions or else we are looking forward to see you during our investor calls and road shows in 2025. Have a great day.

謝謝您，接線生。感謝大家今天參加這次電話會議。投資者關係團隊可隨時解答潛在的後續問題，我們期待在 2025 年的投資者電話會議和路演期間見到您。祝你有美好的一天。