ING Groep NV (ING) 2024 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. This is Laura welcoming you to ING's Q1 2024 conference call. Before handing this conference call over to Steven Van Rijswijk, Chief Executive Officer of ING Group, let me first say that today's comments may include forward-looking statements such as statements regarding future developments in our business, expectations for our future financial performance and any statements not involving a historical fact.

早安.我是 Laura，歡迎您參加 ING 2024 年第一季電話會議。在將本次電話會議交給ING 集團執行長Steven Van Rijswijk 之前，我首先要說的是，今天的評論可能包括前瞻性陳述，例如有關我們業務未來發展的陳述、對我們未來財務業績的預期以及任何陳述不涉及歷史事實。

Actual results may differ materially from those projected in any forward-looking statements. A discussion of factors that may cause actual results to differ from those in (technical difficulty) and including our most recent annual report on Form 20-F filed with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission and our earnings press release as posted on our website today. Furthermore, nothing in today's comments constitutes an offer to sell or a solicitation of an offer to buy any securities.

實際結果可能與任何前瞻性陳述中預測的結果有重大差異。對可能導致實際結果與（技術難度）中的結果不同的因素的討論，包括我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的最新 20-F 表格年度報告以及今天發佈在我們網站上的收益新聞稿。此外，今天的評論中的任何內容均不構成出售要約或徵求購買任何證券的要約。

Good morning, Steven. Over to you.

早安，史蒂文。交給你了。

Thank you very much. Good morning, and welcome to our results call for the first quarter of 2024. I hope you're all well. And as usual, I'm joined by our CRO, Ljiljana Cortan; and our CFO, Tanate Phutrakul.

非常感謝。早安，歡迎參加我們 2024 年第一季的業績電話會議。像往常一樣，我們的 CRO Ljiljana Cortan 也加入了我的行列。和我們的財務長 Tanate Phutrakul。

In today's presentation, I will inform you about the fundamental drivers of ING's excellent start of the year, both in terms of our commercial performance and our financials. Tanate will walk you through the financials of the quarter and the resilience of our net interest income also in a lower rate environment. At the end of the call, we will be happy to take your questions.

在今天的演講中，我將向您介紹 ING 在商業業績和財務方面取得出色開局的基本驅動力。塔納特將帶您了解本季的財務狀況以及我們在較低利率環境下淨利息收入的彈性。在通話結束時，我們將很樂意回答您的問題。

Now let's move to Slide 2. As you can see on this slide, we achieved a very strong commercial performance in the first quarter with growth across the board in customers, lending and deposits. We added 99,000 primary customers comprising both new and existing customers who have chosen us as their primary bank and our primary customer base now amounts to over 15.4 million primary customers and we are well on track to reach our target of 17 million by the end of 2025.

現在讓我們轉向投影片 2。我們增加了 99,000 個主要客戶，包括選擇我們作為主要銀行的新客戶和現有客戶，我們的主要客戶群目前已超過 1,540 萬個主要客戶，我們預計在 2025 年底實現 1,700 萬個的目標。

We've also been able to grow our lending book following a strong fourth quarter. Our mortgage book grew by EUR 2.4 billion this quarter. Most of this growth was visible in the Netherlands, where we further increased our market share and in Germany. In Wholesale Banking, we were also able to capture loan demand while we continued focusing on capital efficiency. On the deposit side, we had successful campaigns to raise new funds in Germany and Poland. And also in Italy, we were able to further grow our business as evidenced by the deposit inflow this quarter.

在第四季度的強勁表現之後，我們的貸款帳簿也有所成長。本季我們的抵押貸款帳面成長了 24 億歐元。這一增長大部分體現在荷蘭和德國，我們進一步增加了我們的市場份額。在批發銀行業務中，我們在繼續關注資本效率的同時也能夠抓住貸款需求。在存款方面，我們在德國和波蘭成功籌集了新資金。同樣在義大利，我們能夠進一步發展我們的業務，本季的存款流入就證明了這一點。

Now this strong commercial growth contributed to an excellent start of the year, which we highlight on Slide 3 and can summarize in 4 main points. Number one, NII was strong. We have been able to keep our lending and liability margins relatively stable and benefit from the growth in volumes. When excluding the increased impact from accounting asymmetry, our NII rose compared to last quarter.

現在，強勁的商業成長為今年的良好開局做出了貢獻，我們在幻燈片 3 中強調了這一點，並可以總結為 4 個要點。第一，NII 很強大。我們能夠保持貸款和負債利潤率相對穩定，並從數量的增長中受益。當排除會計不對稱增加的影響時，我們的NII較上季度上升。

Two, our focus on fees is clearly paying off. Income from fees has grown by double digits versus both comparable quarters. As mentioned during our fourth quarter '23 earnings call, we are benefiting from more customers choosing ING for their banking products and from increased package fees.

第二，我們對費用的關注顯然得到了回報。與兩個可比季度相比，費用收入成長了兩位數。正如我們在 23 年第四季財報電話會議中所提到的，我們受益於越來越多的客戶選擇 ING 作為其銀行產品以及套餐費用的增加。

Also, the new commission structure for independent brokers in Belgium is resulting in lower fees paid. The market dynamics have also become more favorable, leading to positive impact on fees from investment products and lending. As such, we remain confident in our ability to grow fees by 5% to 10% this year.

此外，比利時獨立經紀人的新佣金結構導致支付的費用降低。市場動態也變得更加有利，對投資產品和貸款的費用產生正面影響。因此，我們對今年將費用提高 5% 至 10% 的能力仍然充滿信心。

Number three, operating costs, they were on track. Operating costs increased by 5%, which was mostly attributable to the impact of inflation on staff expenses and the implementation of the Danske Bank ruling on VAT. However, when taking the lower regulatory costs into account, total operating expenses were 1.4% lower than last year.

第三，營運成本，他們步入正軌。營運成本增加5%，主要是由於通貨膨脹對員工費用的影響以及丹麥銀行增值稅裁決的實施。然而，考慮到較低的監管成本，總營運費用比去年下降了1.4%。

And then we have number four, we maintain a high-quality loan book. In line with 2023, the high quality of our loan book continues to be reflected in lower risk costs, which came in at only 16 basis points this quarter. And this has all resulted in another quarter with very attractive returns. Our fourth quarter rolling return on equity was 14.8% and we have achieved this while operating on a high CET1 ratio of also 14.8%.

第四，我們維持高品質的貸款簿。與 2023 年一致，我們貸款帳簿的高品質持續反映在較低的風險成本上，本季風險成本僅為 16 個基點。這一切都導致了另一個季度的回報非常有吸引力。我們第四季的滾動股本回報率為 14.8%，我們在實現這一目標的同時，CET1 比率也高達 14.8%。

Then we turn to Slide 4. As you can see on the top graph, we are in a very predictable rhythm of announcing distributions to our shareholders. And I'm pleased that we have announced another EUR 2.5 billion share buyback today, which is the next step in converging our CET1 ratio towards our target of around 12.5%.

然後我們轉向投影片 4。我很高興我們今天宣布再次回購 25 億歐元的股票，這是將我們的 CET1 比率向 12.5% 左右的目標靠攏的下一步。

Including this buyback, we have returned almost EUR 26 billion to shareholders since 2018 and over EUR 5 billion in 2024 alone, also including the final cash dividend over 2023, which will be paid tomorrow.

包括這次回購在內，我們自 2018 年以來已向股東返還近 260 億歐元，僅 2024 年就超過 50 億歐元，其中還包括將於明天支付的 2023 年末期現金股利。

With a pro forma CET1 ratio of around 14.1% and continued capital generation, we have ample capacity to continue providing an attractive return. And we will update the market at the time of announcing our third quarter 2024 results.

預計 CET1 比率約為 14.1% 並持續產生資本，我們有足夠的能力繼續提供有吸引力的回報。我們將在公佈 2024 年第三季業績時更新市場狀況。

Before Tanate takes you through the financial results in more detail, I will spend some time on the progress we're making on the execution of our strategy and related targets.

在 Tanate 向您詳細介紹財務表現之前，我將花一些時間介紹我們在執行策略和相關目標方面所取得的進展。

On Slide 5, our purpose and strategic priorities are shown. The first priority is to deliver a superior customer experience that is personal, easy, relevant and instant. And this is highly valued by our customers as evidenced by our Net Promoter Scores, where we are ranked #1 in 4 of our 10 retail banking markets. One example of how we offer this excellent experience is the launch of a feature in our banking app that allows customers to immediately check whether a caller who contacts them is actually an ING employee. This will protect both the customer and ING from fraud.

第 5 張投影片展示了我們的目標和策略重點。首要任務是提供個人化、簡單、相關和即時的卓越客戶體驗。我們的客戶高度重視這一點，我們的淨推薦值證明了這一點，我們在 10 個零售銀行市場中的 4 個市場中排名第一。我們如何提供這種卓越體驗的一個例子是在我們的銀行應用程式中推出一項功能，該功能允許客戶立即檢查與他們聯繫的呼叫者是否確實是 ING 員工。這將保護客戶和 ING 免受詐欺。

In Romania, we expanded our instant lending proposition by introducing an instant overdraft product in addition to term loans. And in Wholesale Banking, the ING inside business portal now includes a portfolio insights tool that saves clients' time by giving them real-time insights into their lending portfolio.

在羅馬尼亞，我們除了定期貸款外還推出了即時透支產品，擴大了即時貸款主張。在批發銀行業務中，ING 內部業務入口網站現在包含一個投資組合洞察工具，該工具可以為客戶提供有關貸款投資組合的即時洞察，從而節省客戶的時間。

Our second strategic pillar is putting sustainability at the heart of what we do. And we continue to support our clients in their transition to a low-carbon economy. In the first quarter, we achieved a volume of sustainable finance mobilized of EUR 24.7 billion, an increase of 13% from the same period last year and we closed 156 sustainability transactions, 59% more than in the first quarter last year.

我們的第二個策略支柱是將永續發展置於我們工作的核心。我們將繼續支持客戶轉型為低碳經濟。第一季度，我們籌集了 247 億歐元的永續融資，比去年同期成長了 13%，完成了 156 筆永續發展交易，比去年第一季成長了 59%。

In Retail Banking, we provide sustainable mortgages in several countries and we're also working to help connect customers with services to undertake our sustainable home renovations. For example, in Germany, where we started a pilot in the first quarter where customers can give advice -- can receive advice and connect to partners, specialized sustainable solutions such as heat pumps, solar panels, installation services and subsidy advice.

在零售銀行業務中，我們在多個國家/地區提供可持續抵押貸款，並且還努力幫助客戶與服務建立聯繫，以進行可持續的家居裝修。例如，在德國，我們在第一季啟動了一項試點，客戶可以提供建議——可以接收建議並與合作夥伴聯繫，提供專門的可持續解決方案，例如熱泵、太陽能電池板、安裝服務和補貼建議。

And looking at sustainability and ESG more broadly across the bank, we released publications on human rights and nature that transparently outline our progress.

我們更廣泛地審視整個銀行的可持續發展和 ESG，發布了有關人權和自然的出版物，透明地概述了我們的進展。

On the next slide, I'll give you some insight and the key themes of our Capital Markets Day. As you know, we'll host a Capital Markets Day on the 17th of June. And obviously, I will not reveal too much now, but can give you a broad outline of what we intend to discuss.

在下一張投影片中，我將向您提供一些見解和資本市場日的關鍵主題。如您所知，我們將於 6 月 17 日舉辦資本市集日。顯然，我現在不會透露太多，但可以為您提供我們打算討論的內容的大致輪廓。

First, we will update you on the next phase of our strategy. In addition, we will highlight how capital will be allocated going forward and how that results in further growth and diversification of our business. We will discuss how we leverage our operational excellence. And lastly, we will update you on the targets for the next few years.

首先，我們將向您介紹下一階段策略的最新情況。此外，我們將重點介紹未來將如何分配資本，以及如何實現我們業務的進一步成長和多元化。我們將討論如何利用我們的卓越營運。最後，我們將向您介紹未來幾年的最新目標。

Now I will hand over to Tanate, who will take you through the results in the first quarter in more detail, starting on Slide 8.

現在我將把時間交給 Tanate，他將從幻燈片 8 開始更詳細地向您介紹第一季的結果。

Thank you. As Steven mentioned in his introduction, net interest income was strong again this quarter. Lending NII increased for the fourth consecutive quarter, driven by increased volumes at a higher interest margin. Liability NII continued to be resilient with a margin above our historical average. We did not increase our core rate this quarter. We reinvested part of our replicating portfolio at higher rates and benefit from the positive impact of these actions.

謝謝。正如史蒂文在介紹中提到的，本季淨利息收入再次強勁。在較高息差下貸款量增加的推動下，貸款NII連續第四個季度成長。負債NII持續保持彈性，利潤率高於歷史平均。本季我們沒有提高核心利率。我們以更高的利率對部分複製投資組合進行了再投資，並從這些行動的正面影響中受益。

The overall net interest margin, which was taking in development in the total balance sheet into account decreased by 3 basis points. This is fully driven by lower net interest income for financial markets following an increase in accounting asymmetry. I'll give you more details on the next page.

考慮到總資產負債表的發展，整體淨利差下降了3個基點。這完全是由於會計不對稱加劇導致金融市場淨利息收入下降所致。我將在下一頁為您提供更多詳細資訊。

On this slide, there are 2 messages I want to get across. First, note that when excluding the increased impact of accounting asymmetry, our net interest income increased compared to the previous quarter. However, our net interest income continued to be impacted by accounting asymmetry, which lowers net interest income in group treasury and financial markets with, of course, an offset in other income. This quarter, this accounting symmetry increased, particularly in financial markets.

在這張投影片上，我想傳達兩個訊息。首先，請注意，在排除會計不對稱增加的影響時，我們的淨利息收入與上一季相比有所增加。然而，我們的淨利息收入繼續受到會計不對稱的影響，這降低了集團財務和金融市場的淨利息收入，當然，其他收入也被抵銷了。本季度，這種會計對稱性有所增強，尤其是在金融市場。

The second point that I want to make is that we have clearly benefited from improvement in the curve since our Q4 results presentation. And this will also positively impact the development of our NII in 2024. The normalization of our liability margin is likely to happen more gradually compared to the scenario we gave in February, while there's no reason to change the assumptions from lending growth and other NII. As a result, we now expect to end up at the high end of the range given in February.

我想說的第二點是，自從第四季業績公佈以來，我們明顯受益於曲線的改善。這也將對 2024 年我們的 NII 的發展產生積極影響。因此，我們現在預計最終價格將達到 2 月給出的區間的上限。

On the next slide, we see the resilience of our net interest income also in a decreasing rate environment. Slide 10 illustrates our ability to maintain a strong liability NII also in a lower rate environment. The graph on the left shows the improved forward curve as per the end of March compared to the end of December, with rates moderating -- the long-term rates moderating around 220 basis points. These continued positive rates benefit our gross replicating income as you can see in the graph in the middle of the slide.

在下一張投影片中，我們看到在利率下降的環境下我們的淨利息收入也具有彈性。投影片 10 說明了我們在較低利率環境下也能維持強大的負債 NII 的能力。左圖顯示，與 12 月底相比，3 月底遠期曲線有所改善，利率有所放緩——長期利率放緩約 220 個基點。正如您在幻燈片中間的圖表中看到的那樣，這些持續的正利率有利於我們的總複製收入。

Then when you assume a scenario in which the pass-through gradually increases over time to 50%, the liability NII for our retail Eurozone deposits, net of deposit costs remain at a strong level. The pass-through on total retail Eurozone deposits was around 30% in Q1 2024. Under this scenario, the liability margin is expected to stabilize at a level of around 100 to 110 basis points.

然後，當你假設轉嫁率隨著時間的推移逐漸增加到 50% 的情況時，我們零售歐元區存款的負債 NII（扣除存款成本）仍保持在較高水準。 2024 年第一季度，歐元區零售存款總額的傳遞約為 30%。

Now moving to Slide 11. This shows the development of our core lending and deposits. In Retail Banking, mortgages continued to increase, with growth mainly visible in the Netherlands and in Germany. In Wholesale Banking, we were also able to capture growth opportunities while we continue to focus on capital efficiency.

現在轉到投影片 11。在零售銀行業務中，抵押貸款持續增加，成長主要出現在荷蘭和德國。在批發銀行業務中，我們在繼續關注資本效率的同時也能夠抓住成長機會。

On the liabilities, we saw core deposit increase by EUR 13.5 billion in the first quarter. It was mainly due to another successful promotional campaign in Germany, but we also see growth in Poland as well as in Italy. Wholesale Banking also recorded a small inflow, mostly driven by financial markets and Bank Mendes Gans, where we offer cash pooling for our clients.

負債方面，第一季核心存款增加了 135 億歐元。這主要歸功於德國另一場成功的促銷活動，但我們也看到波蘭和義大利的成長。批發銀行業務也錄得小額資金流入，主要是由金融市場和門德斯甘斯銀行（我們為客戶提供現金池）所推動的。

Now turning our page to Page 12. You can see that our focus on fees is clearly paying off as income has grown by double digit versus both comparable quarters. Roughly half of this growth was driven by growth in the number of customers, our own pricing actions. The new commission structure in Belgium is also resulting in lower fees paid to independent agents.

現在將我們的頁面翻到第 12 頁。大約一半的成長是由客戶數量的成長和我們自己的定價行為所推動的。比利時新的佣金結構也導致支付給獨立代理商的費用降低。

On top of this, we saw the market dynamics has also improved leading to positive impact on fees from investment products as our customers start to trade more and asset under management increase. At the same time, in the wholesale bank, our global capital markets team has so had a very successful start for the year. With that in mind, we remain confident in our ability to grow fees by 5% to 10% this year.

除此之外，我們看到市場動態也有所改善，隨著我們的客戶開始更多交易和管理資產增加，對投資產品的成本產生正面影響。同時，在批發銀行，我們的全球資本市場團隊今年也取得了非常成功的開局。考慮到這一點，我們對今年將費用增加 5% 至 10% 的能力仍然充滿信心。

On Page 13, we continue to be disciplined on cost, excluding regulatory costs, incidental items, operating expenses were up 5% year-on-year, which is in line with what we said during our fourth quarter earnings call. The increase was mainly the impact of inflation on staff expenses, reflecting indexation and CLA increases across most of our markets. We also had to pay higher value-added tax following the implementation of the Danske Bank ruling in the Netherlands.

在第13頁，我們繼續嚴格控製成本，排除監管成本、雜項，營運費用較去年同期成長5%，這與我們在第四季財報電話會議上所說的一致。這一增長主要是通貨膨脹對員工費用的影響，反映了我們大多數市場的指數化和 CLA 的增長。荷蘭實施丹麥銀行裁決後，我們還必須繳納更高的增值稅。

Regulatory costs are also seasonally high in the first quarter, but were significantly lower than last year because no contribution is required to the Eurozone single resolution fund this year. The additional bank taxes in the Netherlands will be paid in the fourth quarter as per normal.

第一季的監理成本也季節性較高，但明顯低於去年，因為今年不需要向歐元區單一決議基金繳款。荷蘭的額外銀行稅將按正常情況在第四季度繳納。

As Steven said at the beginning of the presentation, the total expenses, including regulatory costs and incidental items decrease versus both comparable quarters.

正如史蒂文在演示開始時所說，與兩個可比季度相比，包括監管成本和雜項費用在內的總費用有所下降。

Now on to risk costs on the next slide, Slide 14. Total risk costs were EUR 258 million this quarter or 16 basis points of average customer lending, well below our through-the-cycle average and demonstrating the quality of our loan book. In Wholesale Banking, risk cost including additions for our number of individual files in unrelated industries that were newly provisioned in Stage 3. This was, however, offset by releases in Stage 1 and 2.

現在討論下一張投影片（投影片14）的風險成本。貸款帳簿的品質。在批發銀行業務中，風險成本包括在第三階段新配置的不相關行業中的個人文件數量的增加。

In Retail Banking, risk costs were predominantly driven by business banking and consumer loans, while mortgages, our largest book continue to perform well. Looking at the different stages, addition to Stage 3 provisions were EUR 368 million, but in Stage 3 ratio remained stable at 1.5%. Risk costs for Stage 1 and 2 were a negative EUR 110 million, reflecting an update of better macroeconomic forecast and releases of management overlay. We still have a stock of overlays amounting to EUR 533 million. All in all, another benign quarter in risk cost and we remain confident in the quality of our loan book.

在零售銀行業務中，風險成本主要由商業銀行業務和消費貸款驅動，而我們最大的業務抵押貸款業務繼續表現良好。從不同階段來看，第三階段的準備金增加了3.68億歐元，但第三階段的比率維持穩定在1.5%。第一階段和第二階段的風險成本為負 1.1 億歐元，反映了更好的宏觀經濟預測的更新和管理覆蓋的發布。我們仍有 5.33 億歐元的疊加庫存。總而言之，這是風險成本又一個良性季度，我們對貸款簿的品質仍然充滿信心。

Now Slide 15 shows the development of our capital ratios, which increased further to a very strong 14.8%. Core Tier 1 capital increased by more than EUR 1 billion, driven by inclusion of the net profit for the quarter after reserving for dividend.

現在投影片 15 顯示了我們資本比率的發展，進一步增加至非常強勁的 14.8%。由於計入了保留股息後的本季淨利潤，核心一級資本增加了超過 10 億歐元。

Risk-weighted assets increased by EUR 3.9 billion, including EUR 1 billion of FX impact. Credit risk-weighted assets increased by EUR 3 billion, mostly driven by an increase in exposure and some model changes.

風險加權資產增加了 39 億歐元，其中包括 10 億歐元的外匯影響。信用風險加權資產增加了 30 億歐元，主要是由於曝險增加和一些模型變化所致。

These factors were partly offset by a change in the overall profile of the loan book. Both operational and market risk weight was stable.

這些因素被貸款帳簿整體狀況的變動部分抵銷。操作風險和市場風險權重保持穩定。

Share buyback announced today will have an impact of approximately 77% basis points on the core Tier 1 which will be visible in the Q2 numbers. We will again update the market on our capital plans with the disclosure of our Q3 results in early November.

今天宣布的股票回購將對核心一級資本產生約 77% 基點的影響，這將在第二季的數據中反映出來。我們將在 11 月初揭露第三季業績，再次向市場通報我們的資本計畫。

Then on Slide 16. As Steven and I has explained today, ING had an excellent start to the year with good commercial and financial performance as we have executed on our strategy. Total income grew with strong NII, double-digit fee growth. The development of operating costs were in line with our outlook we gave, while regulatory costs decreased significantly compared to last year.

然後是幻燈片 16。總收入隨著NII 的強勁兩位數費用成長而成長。營運成本的發展符合我們的預期，而監管成本與去年相比大幅下降。

Our 4 quarter rolling ROE remains very attractive at almost 15%, while our core Tier 1 ratio further strengthened to 14.8%. This has allowed us to announce another sizable share buyback program, which has started today. We will update the market again at the time of announcing our third quarter results.

我們的第 4 季滾動 ROE 仍然非常有吸引力，接近 15%，而我們的核心一級資本比率進一步增強至 14.8%。這使我們能夠宣布另一項大規模的股票回購計劃，該計劃已於今天開始。我們將在公佈第三季業績時再次向市場通報最新情況。

The strong first quarter performance gives us further confidence that we will reach above 12% return on equity target. In general, looking ahead, we are confident that we will continue to deliver robust financial results while successfully executing our strategy. We will take a long-term view at our Capital Markets Day taking place in June. We look forward to discussing this with you then.

第一季的強勁表現讓我們更有信心達到 12% 以上的股本回報率目標。總的來說，展望未來，我們有信心在成功執行我們的策略的同時，繼續實現強勁的財務表現。我們將在六月舉行的資本市場日上著眼長遠。我們期待屆時與您討論此事。

Now on to the Q&A, operator.

現在進入問答環節，接線生。

(Operator Instructions) We'll now take our first question from Tarik El Mejjad with Bank of America.

（操作員說明）我們現在將回答美國銀行的 Tarik El Mejjad 提出的第一個問題。

Well done on a good set of results. So the first question would be on capital and capital return. So you reiterated the 12.5% CET1 into '25. So how do you read the increased scrutiny on capital and resilience -- banking resilience in Europe with the chair of your own Ministry of Finance issuing a report with more cautious kind of outlook on capital build and the Swiss Federal Council reports and the capital stock?

做得很好，取得了一系列良好的結果。所以第一個問題是資本和資本回報。所以你重申了 25 年的 12.5% CET1。那麼，您如何解讀對資本和韌性的日益嚴格的審查——歐洲銀行業的韌性，您自己的財政部長發布了一份對資本建設前景更加謹慎的報告，以及瑞士聯邦委員會的報告和資本存量？

So are you still comfortable to run to 12.5% CET1 that doesn't include any management buffer? And also in terms of timing for that, I mean, once you announced 12.5% in '22, we didn't expect rates to go up so quickly and you've managed your RWA very well in the last 2 years. So would you probably need 2, 3 more years actually to reach 12.5%?

那麼，您是否仍願意運行到不包含任何管理緩衝區的 12.5% CET1？而且就時機而言，我的意思是，一旦您在 22 年宣布利率達到 12.5%，我們沒想到利率會上升得如此之快，而且您在過去 2 年中很好地管理了 RWA。那麼實際上您可能還需要 2、3 年才能達到 12.5% 嗎？

And still on capital, I mean, the M&A activity in Europe has picked up as we've seen with the latest deals. I mean, how do you see your business model? Is this business model that you think can participate in that, especially that you are -- you have plenty of capital? And I know I ask this question every call, but would that be almost necessary for you to fix your unbalanced fees, NII mix that could put pressure in a normalized rate environment?

我的意思是，在資本方面，歐洲的併購活動已經增加，正如我們在最新交易中看到的那樣。我的意思是，你如何看待你的商業模式？您認為這種商業模式是否可以參與其中，尤其是您擁有充足的資本？我知道我每次打電話都會問這個問題，但這對您來說幾乎有必要解決不平衡的費用嗎？

And last question is on NII. I mean, I'm sure there will be many, many questions after mine. But just to get the trajectory, I mean, your Slide 10 is very helpful for the liability margin. Should we read that if we exclude the volume growth, '24, you should see NII pressure from liability margin until, let's say, first half next year and then the volume growth will be there supporting kind of a flattish level and will be more having a recovery towards '27?

最後一個問題是關於 NII 的。我的意思是，我確信在我提出之後會有很多很多問題。但我的意思是，為了獲得軌跡，您的 Slide 10 對責任邊際非常有幫助。我們是否應該讀到，如果我們排除銷量增長，'24，您應該會看到來自負債利潤率的NII壓力，直到明年上半年，然後銷量增長將支撐某種平坦的水平，並且將更加具有向' 27'復甦？

Thank you very much, Tarik. The answer on the third question is yes, but Tanate will elaborate. Tanate will also talk about capital. I'll talk about M&A and fees.

非常感謝你，塔里克。第三個問題的答案是肯定的，但 Tanate 會詳細說明。 Tanate也會談資本。我將談論併購和費用。

Look, clearly, we see that we have -- we see continued good growth in our customers, but also in our fee income. So autonomously, we are doing very well and we can also continue to grow very well. As I've also said, in local markets in retail, skill is key because you can make more impacts. You can do that with better operational jaws and better operational leverage. You can offer better propositions just given the sheer size you have in that market.

顯然，我們看到我們的客戶以及我們的費用收入持續良好成長。所以自主地，我們做得很好，我們也可以繼續成長得很好。正如我也說過的，在本地零售市場，技能是關鍵，因為你可以產生更大的影響。您可以透過更好的操作爪和更好的操作槓桿來做到這一點。考慮到您在該市場的龐大規模，您可以提供更好的建議。

And so therefore, it's important that in every market in retail where we're active, that we are a sizable. Now in that sense, in case there would be opportunities to increase that size while fitting to our culture and our digital operations, we would look at it. And that would be to increase size. And two, we would look at certain skill sets, either digitally or fee-related, whereby I would say we can diversify quicker than we could do that on autonomous basis. So the first strategy is continue to be autonomously if there is in-market consolidation or skill consolidation, then we will look at it.

因此，重要的是，在我們活躍的每個零售市場中，我們都具有一定規模。現在從這個意義上說，如果有機會擴大規模，同時適應我們的文化和數位運營，我們會考慮它。那就是增加規模。第二，我們會專注於某些技能組合，無論是數位技能還是與費用相關的技能，我想說我們可以比自主基礎上更快地多元化。因此，第一個策略是繼續自主，如果有市場整合或技能整合，那麼我們會關注它。

All right, Tarik, in answering your question, clearly, we are comfortable operating at around 12.5% core Tier 1 level. And I think what drives that confidence is the fact that we have a diversified business model. We have a gradual transition to a much more capital-light revenue model and the fact that we have, through the cycle been able to manage our risk management in terms of risk cost, credit risk, market risk, operational risk well. So I think that gives us comfort that we can operate at the buffer levels envisaged that you see now, okay?

好吧，塔里克，在回答你的問題時，很明顯，我們很樂意在 12.5% 左右的核心一級水平上運營。我認為推動這種信心的是我們擁有多元化的商業模式。我們正在逐步過渡到更輕資本的收入模式，事實上，在整個週期中，我們能夠在風險成本、信用風險、市場風險和操作風險方面很好地管理我們的風險管理。所以我認為這讓我們感到安慰，我們可以在你現在看到的緩衝水平上運作，好嗎？

The second point to make on the comfort that we take is that clearly, every share buyback that we do would mean a consultation and application from the ECB to actually do the share buyback. And that has been granted. That's why we're starting the share buyback today.

讓我們感到安心的第二點是，顯然，我們所做的每一次股票回購都意味著歐洲央行的諮詢和申請，以實際進行股票回購。這已經被批准了。這就是我們今天開始股票回購的原因。

Now to your second question around NII on liabilities, yes, we do expect in our simulation that rates will remain stable where they are now until the end of June and then gradually transition to a lower level somewhere during the course of 2025. So if these simulations come through, indeed, you will see a dip during the course of the second half of '24, stabilization in '25 and indeed, with volume growth, see accretion in terms of NII on liability going forward with the assumptions we've given around tracking speed of deposit costs.

現在，關於負債的 NII 的第二個問題，是的，我們確實預計在我們的模擬中，利率將在 6 月底之前保持穩定，然後在 2025 年期間逐漸過渡到較低水平。事實上，透過模擬，你會看到在24 年下半年出現下降，在25 年趨於穩定，並且實際上，隨著數量的增長，根據我們給出的假設，未來負債的NII 會增加圍繞跟踪存款成本的速度。

We'll now take our next question from Giulia Miotto of Morgan Stanley.

現在我們將回答摩根士丹利的 Giulia Miotto 提出的下一個問題。

I want to ask another question on this slide, please. The 50% assumption in terms of pass-through on the savings rate, is that realistic? Or is it a bit conservative? Because it means that essentially, you're not cutting savings rates as rates go down. So I would like your -- yes, (technical difficulty) on that one.

我想在這張投影片上問另一個問題。就儲蓄率傳遞而言，50% 的假設現實嗎？還是有點保守？因為從本質上講，這意味著您不會隨著利率下降而降低儲蓄率。所以我想要你的——是的，（技術難度）。

And then secondly, I know that Russia by now is small for ING, but we have seen a pickup of attention from Europe in terms of reducing, getting out from that country. Any comments there, please?

其次，我知道俄羅斯目前對 ING 來說還很小，但我們看到歐洲在減少和撤出該國方面的注意力增加。請問有什麼意見嗎？

Yes, I'll do the question on Russia and Tanate will talk about the pass-through assumptions. Well, on Russia, like we said at the beginning of the war that we did not see a future for ourselves in Russia, so then we have been building down our loan book. It was about EUR 6.7 billion at the time, it is now about EUR 1.3 billion.

是的，我將回答有關俄羅斯的問題，塔納特將討論傳遞假設。好吧，關於俄羅斯，就像我們在戰爭開始時所說的那樣，我們在俄羅斯看不到自己的未來，所以我們一直在減少我們的貸款簿。當時約 67 億歐元，現在約 13 億歐元。

So we decreased this with over 75% and we will continue to do so. In that setting, also EUR 600 million is covered by ECA, European credit agencies, or insurance. So we, in the meantime, took ample provisions and capital. So we're well covered for that book. And yes, of course, we see the attention, but there is not a particular attention to us. We are just continuing on our decrease and path what we have chosen already 2 years ago.

因此，我們將這一比例降低了 75% 以上，並且我們將繼續這樣做。在這種情況下，ECA、歐洲信貸機構或保險也承擔 6 億歐元。因此，我們同時準備了充足的物資和資金。所以我們對那本書有很好的了解。是的，當然，我們看到了關注，但我們並沒有受到特別關注。我們只是繼續我們的減少和我們兩年前選擇的道路。

Giulia, to answer your question, clearly, deposit tracking is one of the, I would say, 2 major or 3 major assumptions that we make in this scenario, the forward curve being one, deposit growth being the second and the tracking being the third. Now the tracking, I think what I can say is the following: the tracking up until Q1 was around 30%, right?

朱利亞，為了回答你的問題，很明顯，存款追蹤是我們在這種情況下做出的2 個或3 個主要假設之一，遠期曲線是其中之一，存款成長是第二個，追蹤是第三個。現在的跟踪，我想我可以說的是：直到第一季的跟踪約為 30%，對嗎？

Take that as an anchor point. We have done indeed a simulation for 50%. I think there's an element of prudence in there. But at the same time, we are also giving you a sensitivity that every 10 basis points is around EUR 400 million. So I think we've given all the major driving parts and then you can take a judgment on that as well.

以此為錨點。我們確實模擬了50%。我認為這裡面有一個謹慎的因素。但同時，我們也給您一個敏感度，即每 10 個基點約 4 億歐元。所以我認為我們已經給出了所有主要的驅動部件，然後你也可以對此做出判斷。

And we'll now take our next question from Sam Moran-Smyth of Barclays.

現在我們將回答巴克萊銀行的薩姆·莫蘭·史密斯提出的下一個問題。

So one question on NII and one question on fees, please. So I appreciate there's going to be a lot of questions about liabilities. But on the asset side, the lending margin grew again Q-on-Q. Could you please talk about which geographies and products are driving that? And is it something that you expect to gradually tick up going forward? I appreciate you've given a lot of color on liability margins and your expectations there. So anything you can give on lending would be great.

請提出一個關於 NII 的問題和一個關於費用的問題。所以我理解會有很多關於負債的問題。但在資產方面，貸款利潤率較上季再次成長。您能否談談哪些地區和產品正在推動這一趨勢？您預計未來會逐漸增加嗎？我感謝您對責任邊際和您的期望給予了許多支持。所以你能提供的任何貸款都會很棒。

And then on fees, I'm just trying to understand if we should be expecting fees to kind of grow Q-on-Q from here because when I look at the mix, daily banking fees up Q-on-Q and next quarter, we'll have a full quarter of the package increases in the Netherlands. And then on lending and investment products, you might expect those to grow as we approach lower rates. So is that the right way to think about it? Or am I missing something, I can see on insurance and financial market fees that they look at the inflated parts this quarter? So just wondering how we should extrapolate that?

然後在費用方面，我只是想了解我們是否應該期望費用從這裡開始環比增長，因為當我查看組合時，每日銀行費用環比和下個季度上漲，我們將在荷蘭增加整整四分之一的套餐。然後，在貸款和投資產品方面，隨著我們接近較低的利率，您可能會預期這些產品將會成長。那麼這是正確的思考方式嗎？或者我是否遺漏了一些東西，我可以在保險和金融市場費用中看到他們在本季度查看誇大的部分？所以只是想知道我們應該如何推論？

Okay. Thank you. On the lending margin, yes, the largest impact of that increase was in mortgages also because there is a -- most of our mortgages are funded a bit earlier. So with a decrease in the funding rate, there you see that an increase in the margin coming in. So that was the reason for the increase in lending margin.

好的。謝謝。就貸款利潤率而言，是的，這種增長的最大影響是抵押貸款，因為我們的大多數抵押貸款的融資時間都比較早。因此，隨著融資利率的下降，您會看到保證金增加。

When we come to fees, yes, look, in the end, what we want to do is to increase the all 5, if you will. So which is, first of all, a growth in customers. Indeed, payment packages, indeed, increases this quarter will also filter through then for the full quarter in the second quarter. What we told you on the brokers in Belgium will continue.

當我們談到費用時，是的，最後，我們想要做的是增加所有 5 個費用，如果你願意的話。首先，這是客戶的成長。事實上，本季支付方案的成長也將滲透到第二季的整個季度。我們告訴您的關於比利時經紀人的內容將繼續下去。

And of course, it is that continued also growth in the number of investment accounts that we have because once people have investment accounts with us, when the market is changing, which it has now done again, then we are going back to trade situation that we did see in the past. And of course, the past couple of years, it was a bit benign, which also, therefore, caused the fees to be flatlining, if you will. So with that, the fact that we can grow our customers, the fact that there is a feed-through of the increase in the payment packages for the next quarter, the fact that the contract with the independent brokers in Belgium are there.

當然，我們擁有的投資帳戶數量也持續增長，因為一旦人們在我們這裡擁有投資帳戶，當市場發生變化時，現在又發生了變化，那麼我們就會回到這樣的貿易狀況：我們過去確實見過。當然，過去幾年，情況有點溫和，因此，如果你願意的話，這也導致費用持平。因此，我們可以增加客戶，下個季度的付款方案增加，以及與比利時獨立經紀人的合約已經存在。

And on top of it, therefore with that increase in primary customers, the increase in the activities in investment products in insurance and maybe more cyclical in Wholesale Banking makes us very confident to reach that 5% to 10% in 2024.

最重要的是，隨著主要客戶的增加、保險投資產品活動的增加以及批發銀行業務的周期性增加，使我們非常有信心在 2024 年達到 5% 至 10%。

And we will now take our next question from Benoit Petrarque with Kepler Cheuvreux.

現在我們將回答 Benoit Petrarque 和 Kepler Cheuvreux 提出的下一個問題。

It's Benoit Petrarque. Yes, sorry to come back on the landing margin because obviously, you guide for a drop of your liability margin to the 100, 110 bps range. In your current interest rate scenario basically going to you report, I think, 2.3% by '27. How much lending margin improvement will you expect in that scenario? That would be extremely useful to get a bit of details on that.

我是伯努瓦·佩特拉克。是的，很抱歉回到著陸保證金，因為顯然，您建議將責任保證金降至 100、110 個基點範圍。在你目前的利率情境中，我認為基本上會在 27 年之前達到 2.3%。在這種情況下，您預計貸款利潤率會提高多少？這對於了解一些細節非常有用。

And was also number two was on the replicating portfolio and the usual questions around the duration of plus 2.4 years last time. And just wondering if that moved up a bit as -- yes, obviously, you probably manage a bit deterioration. And then just the last question, we saw an interview from the CEO of Germany a few weeks ago talking about growing the SME business in Germany. And I'm just wondering how much potential growth you see there and whether that could be meaningful.

第二名是關於複製投資組合以及上次關於 2.4 年以上持續時間的常見問題。只是想知道這是否會有所上升——是的，顯然，你可能會管理一些惡化。最後一個問題，幾週前我們看到德國執行長的採訪，談到在德國發展中小企業業務。我只是想知道您在那裡看到了多少潛在增長以及這是否有意義。

I'll take the question on our CEO in Germany. And Tanate takes the other questions. Yes, look, I mean, there is a lot of growth opportunity in Germany. We have just started, I would say, digital SME offering. As in the past, when we came to Germany to say we only will do diesel banking for private individuals, people said, well, that will not work in Germany. And that's just not how the German culture and German contract works, you have to have branches, et cetera.

我將回答我們德國執行長的問題。塔納特回答了其他問題。是的，我的意思是，德國有很多成長機會。我想說，我們剛開始提供數位中小企業服務。和過去一樣，當我們來到德國說我們只會為私人提供柴油銀行業務時，人們說，好吧，這在德國行不通。這不是德國文化和德國合約的運作方式，你必須有分支機構，等​​等。

And well, now we are 20 years further and then 9 million clients further. And moreover, also corona in that sense also really gave an additional impetus for people to do digital and even mobile banking, so only use their mobile. And they begin digital in Germany was largely desktop and then greatly became mobile.

好吧，現在我們又前進了 20 年，然後又前進了 900 萬客戶。此外，從這個意義上說，電暈也確實為人們進行數位甚至行動銀行業務提供了額外的動力，所以只使用他們的手機。在德國，他們的數位化開始主要是桌面設備，然後大量轉向行動裝置。

Now since the last 2 years, we have said, okay, we can also do this for, let's say, smaller SMEs, with self-employed smaller SMEs, small businesses, also built a fully digital offering for them as well. Most people don't necessarily want to spend a lot of time on banking. They want it to be easy, instant, safe, personal. And that's how we are offering that as well.

自過去兩年以來，我們已經說過，好吧，我們也可以為小型中小企業做到這一點，對於個體經營的小型中小企業、小型企業，也為他們建立了完全數位化的產品。大多數人不一定願意在銀行業務上花費大量時間。他們希望它簡單、即時、安全、個人化。這也是我們提供的方式。

It doesn't exist in Germany. We have launched it. It's currently small. In the end, we also want to test it also with the risk costs that come in. So you provide a savings account, a current account, a loan and then you calibrate your model and greatly we grow our business, but we have very positive views on how we greatly diversified our business. And moreover, with the learnings that we have in Germany, we then also intend to roll it out in other markets as well.

它在德國不存在。我們已經推出了它。目前還很小。最後，我們還想用隨之而來的風險成本來測試它。的關於我們如何大幅多元化業務的看法。此外，根據我們在德國獲得的經驗，我們也打算將其推廣到其他市場。

Ben, some reflection on lending margins. I think we have seen the beginning of a quantitative tightening cycle. We have seen the fact that the TLTRO funding EUR 3.5 trillion is being taken out by the ECB. So that points to a thesis from us that lending margin should improve. But what I think is also important in terms of our lending NII is the fact that as rates move from 4 to 20 that they should stimulate more lending growth and that's what we see signs of already. So that's with respect to NII lending. So I do see potential upside from where we are today.

Ben，對貸款利潤率的一些思考。我認為我們已經看到量化緊縮週期的開始。我們已經看到歐洲央行正在拿出 3.5 兆歐元的 TLTRO 資金。因此，這表明我們的一個論點是貸款利潤率應該提高。但我認為就我們的貸款 NII 而言也很重要的事實是，隨著利率從 4 升至 20，它們應該會刺激更多的貸款成長，這就是我們已經看到的跡象。這就是 NII 貸款的情況。因此，我確實看到了我們目前狀況的潛在上升空間。

Then to answer your second question, we did indeed give guidance on the weighted average duration of liability of 2.4 years and that remains roughly the same in Q1.

然後回答你的第二個問題，我們確實給出了 2.4 年加權平均責任期限的指導，並且在第一季大致保持不變。

And we'll now take our next question from Benjamin Goy of Deutsche Bank.

現在我們將回答德意志銀行本傑明‧戈伊的下一個問題。

Two questions, please. The first on costs. And you mentioned that in Q1, your expense growth is a bit below your target for full year. Just wondering why this should increase throughout the year? Or is it just a full year guidance, a conservative element considering inflation that came down in most of your markets already?

請教兩個問題。首先是成本。您提到，在第一季度，您的費用成長略低於全年目標。只是想知道為什麼這數字會全年增加？或者這只是一個全年指導，考慮到大多數市場的通膨已經下降，這是一個保守的因素？

And the second is with the accounting asymmetry, it's a bit more difficult to judge the developments across the country. Maybe can you comment on the moves in some of your key geographies, whether it was Netherlands, also Germany, the challenger markets Q-on-Q net interest income, what was underlying, what was accounting asymmetry driven to quarter-on-quarter move?

第二個是由於會計不對稱，判斷全國範圍內的發展有點困難。也許您可以評論一下您的一些關鍵地區的走勢，無論是荷蘭還是德國，挑戰者市場環比淨利息收入，根本原因是什麼，會計不對稱導致季度環比變動的原因是什麼？

So on the cost, I'll take it. So basically, what we have factored in, in, let's say, the outlook of our costs that we gave last quarter is also and the spillover of the CLA that -- the CLA increase that came from the past year into this year, but also the new CLA amendments that we will need to make in the second and third quarter. That's what gives you that guidance.

所以論成本，我就接受。所以基本上，我們在上個季度給出的成本前景中也考慮了 CLA 的溢出效應——從去年到今年的 CLA 成長，而且我們需要在第二季和第三季進行新的 CLA 修訂。這就是給你指導的原因。

And then on accounting symmetry, most of the accounting symmetry happens in financial market, which is a global business. So that is not linked to any particular country. And with respect to GT, it's the same. It's the global results, which are predominantly based in Amsterdam. So it's in our Dutch location. But we'll give you a bit more clarity in terms of what these asymmetries are on Page 22 of our results presentation as well. So you can see where the movements are.

然後在會計對稱性上，大多數會計對稱性發生在金融市場，這是一個全球性的業務。所以這與任何特定國家無關。對GT來說，也是一樣的。這是全球結果，主要集中在阿姆斯特丹。所以它就在我們荷蘭的位置。但我們也會在結果演示的第 22 頁上讓您更清楚地了解這些不對稱性。這樣你就可以看到運動在哪裡。

And we'll now take our next question from Farquhar Murray of Autonomous.

現在我們將回答 Autonomous 的 Farquhar Murray 提出的下一個問題。

Just 2 questions, if I may. Firstly, the new liability margin guidance of 100 to 110 is obviously slightly higher. I just wondered if in very broad terms, you can maybe split how that between, say, the curve movement and the tracking speed assumptions, I feel like there's a little bit of both in there somewhere. And then in terms of -- actually, is there any particular geographies driving that, particularly with respect to the tracking speed assumption? It feels like maybe you've got to be more confident about tracking in certain places.

如果可以的話，只有兩個問題。首先，新的負債保證金指引100至110明顯略高。我只是想知道，從廣義上講，您是否可以在曲線運動和追蹤速度假設之間進行劃分，我覺得兩者都有一點。然後，實際上，是否有任何特定的地理位置推動這一點，特別是在追蹤速度假設方面？感覺也許你必須對某些地方的跟蹤更有信心。

And then secondly, the EUR 2.5 billion is another step in the right direction on the share buyback. But finally, looking at the CET1 ratio of 12.5%, it would by full year '25 find you towards probably the lower end versus peer group. So can I ask, is that an outcome that ING would be comfortable with kind of therefore look at the 12.5% as fully independent of relative peer positioning?

其次，25 億歐元是股票回購朝著正確方向邁出的又一步。但最後，看看 12.5% 的 CET1 比率，到 25 年全年，您會發現與同行相比，您可能處於較低端。那麼我能否問一下，ING 是否會接受這樣的結果，因此將 12.5% 視為完全獨立於相對同行定位？

Okay. I'll take the second question and Tanate will take the first question on even further splitting up Page 10, I guess.

好的。我猜我將回答第二個問題，而 Tanate 將回答第一個問題，即進一步拆分第 10 頁。

And the answer on the second question is yes. So yes, we are comfortable with our CET1 target of around 12.5%, which we have said all along. And we are a bank that operates in a relatively low-risk environment with low risk cost with low NPL ratios with either largely collateralized loans in the form of mortgages or senior or super senior loans also in Wholesale Banking. So yes, in that sense, we are comfortable with our 12.5% and we're comfortable with our buffer.

第二個問題的答案是肯定的。所以，是的，我們對我們一直以來所說的 12.5% 左右的 CET1 目標感到滿意。我們是一家在相對低風險的環境中運營的銀行，風險成本低，不良貸款率低，在批發銀行業務中要么以抵押貸款的形式提供大量抵押貸款，要么以高級或超高級貸款的形式提供貸款。所以，是的，從這個意義上說，我們對 12.5% 感到滿意，對我們的緩衝感到滿意。

And to try to give you a bit more detail, I think it's a combination of tracking and of the curve. I think maybe 3 things to answer your question, Farquhar, is that we believe that we are reaching a point of stabilization in terms of our current account levels, right, which drives a lot of the margin improvement. And we see that as being structurally more stable given the higher number of primary customers. That would be one.

為了給您更多細節，我認為這是跟踪和曲線的結合。法誇爾，我認為也許可以用三件事來回答你的問題，那就是我們相信我們的經常賬戶水平正在達到穩定點，對吧，這推動了利潤率的大幅提高。我們認為，鑑於主要客戶數量較多，結構更加穩定。那就是其中之一。

The second one is that we also see that in the picture we gave on Page 10 that the total liability margin also includes liability margin in non-Eurozone countries and it also includes Wholesale Banking margin. And we see that the liability margin in our non-Eurozone is actually holding up quite well. And it's the same for liability margin in the wholesale bank. That gives us the comfort to give you this outlook of between 100 and 110.

第二個是我們也看到，在第10頁給出的圖中，總負債保證金還包括非歐元區國家的負債保證金，還包括批發銀行保證金。我們看到非歐元區的負債邊際實際上保持得很好。批發銀行的負債保證金也是如此。這讓我們可以放心地為您提供 100 到 110 之間的前景。

And we'll take our next question from Kiri from HSBC.

我們將接受匯豐銀行 Kiri 提出的下一個問題。

A couple of questions from my side. So you've given us refreshed guidance on the Basel IV for the day 1 impact. I wonder if there's anything new you can say or updated -- you can update us on the impact of the phasing from the output floor. I appreciate lots of moving parts, but just some color there would be helpful.

我這邊有幾個問題。因此，您為我們提供了《巴塞爾協議 IV》第一天影響的最新指導。我想知道您是否可以說或更新任何新內容 - 您可以向我們介紹輸出層分相影響的最新情況。我喜歡很多活動部件，但只要有一些顏色就會有幫助。

And then secondly, just a more bigger picture question on the fees and investment products because we think particularly in Continental Europe that ETFs are getting more and more popular, particularly with your -- the younger customers that your target demographic. So how should we think about that?

其次，關於費用和投資產品的更宏觀的問題，因為我們認為，特別是在歐洲大陸，ETF 越來越受歡迎，特別是在您的目標群體中的年輕客戶中。那我們該如何思考呢？

Is there some kind of structural margin pressure to think about on a kind of medium-term view? Or is it more of a benefit for the likes of ING because you don't really have kind of legacy product factories that do traditional asset management products? So how does that play out for you guys?

是否存在某種結構性利潤壓力需要考慮中期觀點？或者這對 ING 等公司來說更有好處，因為您實際上沒有那種生產傳統資產管理產品的遺留產品工廠？那你們覺得結果如何呢？

I'll take the -- thank you. Thanks, Kiri. I'll take the second question and Ljiljana will take the first question. On the fees, I mean, on the investment product fees, clearly, we don't have these production engines and we are -- we distribute. So we buy these ETFs or these funds and we distribute them in the markets.

我會接受——謝謝。謝謝，基里。我將回答第二個問題，Ljiljana 將回答第一個問題。關於費用，我的意思是，關於投資產品費用，顯然，我們沒有這些生產引擎，但我們是——我們進行分配。因此，我們購買這些 ETF 或這些基金，然後在市場上分配它們。

And we come out of an environment whereby we were in a number of these banks were quite -- countries were quite narrow as a bank, some banks, people call a sort of a neobank of (inaudible) in retail where we are very big in a number of clients, but our activity is still small.

我們所處的環境是，我們在許多這樣的銀行中，國家作為銀行的範圍相當狹窄，一些銀行，人們稱之為零售業的某種新銀行（聽不清），而我們在零售業的規模非常大。

And a couple of years ago, we started to diversify that. And one of those diversification levers was investment products. Now we start -- we have started with that. So our total assets under management now is approximately EUR 220 billion. Please note, the largest part of that is still brokerage.

幾年前，我們開始多元化。這些多元化槓桿之一就是投資產品。現在我們開始——我們已經開始了。所以我們現在管理的總資產約為2200億歐元。請注意，其中最大的部分仍然是經紀業務。

So we provide very simple, very easy, very instant digital products, which we distribute, not produce. We do that now in a number of markets, but the number of clients that do this with us is still significantly lower than our primary customer. So we first have to make sure that we have our customers use these apps for these products because we're relatively new in that game.

因此，我們提供非常簡單、非常容易、非常即時的數位產品，我們分發這些產品，而不是生產這些產品。我們現在在許多市場都這樣做，但與我們一起這樣做的客戶數量仍然明顯低於我們的主要客戶。因此，我們首先必須確保我們的客戶將這些應用程式用於這些產品，因為我們在該領域相對較新。

Secondly, because it's largely brokerage or self-execution, if you will, we can still grow quite dramatically and move ourselves up the curve into a simple advice or personal advice, which in a number of markets we currently don't do or hardly do. So we are still moving ourselves up and we have not this benefit from, let's say, margin pressure on the ETF side.

其次，因為這主要是經紀或自我執行，如果你願意的話，我們仍然可以大幅增長，並將自己提升為簡單的建議或個人建議，而在許多市場中，我們目前沒有這樣做或幾乎不這樣做。因此，我們仍在不斷提升自己，但我們並沒有從 ETF 方面的保證金壓力中受益。

On the Basel IV day 1 impact as you've seen, there are no actually updates. What we are doing every quarter, as you noticed as well in our RWA moves, we are periodically updating our models and having some results for collaborations that can cater for the RWA is going up or down, as you have seen throughout the quarters. That's why our, I would say, view on Basel IV day 1 impact remains around 20 bps and it's driven by various drivers is predominantly with operational RWA.

正如您所看到的，巴塞爾 IV 第一天的影響實際上沒有更新。我們每季所做的事情，正如您在我們的RWA 變動中所注意到的那樣，我們會定期更新我們的模型，並獲得一些可以滿足RWA 的合作結果，這些結果是上升或下降的，正如您在整個季度中看到的那樣。我想說，這就是為什麼我們對《巴塞爾協議 IV》第一天影響的看法仍然在 20 個基點左右，並且它是由各種驅動因素​​驅動的，主要是運營 RWA。

When it comes to the output floor as well, I would say no update at this point of time. There are still some topics in the industry. As you know, that we are discussing and depends also on the national regulators and how are they going to tackle certain areas. We're going to update you in due time. But so far, as I said, around 20 bps remains our guidance.

當談到輸出層時，我想說目前沒有更新。行業內還存在一些話題。如您所知，我們正在討論這一點，也取決於國家監管機構以及他們將如何解決某些領域的問題。我們將及時向您通報最新情況。但到目前為止，正如我所說，20 個基點左右仍然是我們的指導。

We'll now take our next question from Guillaume of BNP Paribas Exane.

現在我們將回答法國巴黎銀行 Exane 的 Guillaume 提出的下一個問題。

Two please. Number one is on the lending margin again. I think historically, you guided that the lending margin was around 150 basis points. So do you think you can revert back to it, but I guess not within 2 or 3 years, maybe longer term, but do you think 150 is still a reasonable long-term lending margin?

請兩個。第一個是貸款保證金。我認為從歷史上看，您指導的貸款利潤率約為 150 個基點。那麼你認為你可以恢復到原來的水平嗎？

And the second one relates to the revenue to RWA ratio in the wholesale division. You've done a good improvement in the last couple of years, both from the revenue side and from the denominator side. Do you think there's more to do on the denominator side? I know your RWA density looks low, but that's due to mandates gone to some extent. But do you think you can improve your density further?

第二個與批發部門的收入與 RWA 比率有關。過去幾年，無論是從收入方面還是從分母方面，你們都取得了巨大的進步。您認為在分母方面還有更多工作要做嗎？我知道你們的 RWA 密度看起來很低，但這是由於強制規定在某種程度上消失了。但你認為你可以進一步提高你的密度嗎？

Yes. Thanks very much. On the lending margin, no, in the past, we guided 450 basis points total margin, so not necessarily lending margins. So that was the total of it, so not all lending. On the revenue over RWA, look, I mean -- and I think we said it also in the past quarters, we come out of an environment as ING, we always have been a strong credit bank. And so we underwrite and then we hold, so our activities in secondary loan trading, packaging it, selling it, trading it have been very limited.

是的。非常感謝。關於貸款保證金，不是，過去我們指導總保證金是450個基點，所以不一定是貸款保證金。這就是全部貸款，而不是所有貸款。關於 RWA 的收入，我的意思是——我想我們在過去幾季也說過，我們來自 ING 的環境，我們一直是一家強大的信貸銀行。所以我們先承保，然後持有，所以我們在二級貸款交易、包裝、出售、交易方面的活動非常有限。

And what we have been doing over the past 1 to 1.5 years, it gradually built up that muscle in becoming better at when appropriate, also making sure that we use the capital more efficiently because arguably Wholesale Banking uses half of the capital of the bank and we want to increase return on equity in Wholesale Banking. So we're training that muscle and step by step, we are becoming better. So we will continue that is one of the key focus areas in Wholesale Banking to become better at it and increase that muscle.

我們在過去1 到1.5 年裡一直在做的事情，逐漸增強了在適當的時候變得更好的能力，同時確保我們更有效地使用資本，因為可以說批發銀行業務使用了銀行一半的資本，並且我們希望提高批發銀行業務的股本回報率。所以我們正在訓練那塊肌肉，一步一步地，我們正在變得更好。因此，我們將繼續將其作為批發銀行業務的重點領域之一，以變得更好並增強實力。

And we'll now take our next question from Johan Ekblom of UBS.

現在我們將回答瑞銀集團 (UBS) 的約翰‧艾克布洛姆 (Johan Ekblom) 提出的下一個問題。

Just maybe to come back where we started on M&A in the sector. And just if you could maybe outline how you put further share buybacks versus M&A. I mean, how important this near-term EPS accretion, et cetera, in terms of the criteria that you put up for potential M&A?

也許只是回到我們在這個行業併購的起點。如果您能概述如何進一步進行股票回購與併購。我的意思是，就您為潛在併購提出的標準而言，短期每股盈餘增加等有多重要？

And then just to come back on the fee income, I think you've flagged many times how successful the investment product build-out has been in Germany. You said that there are potential in other markets.

然後，回到費用收入，我認為您已經多次指出德國投資產品的建設是多麼成功。你說其他市場也有潛力。

Can you give us a bit more color as to where we are in terms of the investment product piece? How much comes from Germany today? What countries are the most underpenetrated in that sense in terms of giving us some confidence on the sustainability of the fee income growth?

您能給我們更多關於我們在投資產品方面的進展嗎？今天有多少來自德國？從這個意義上講，哪些國家的滲透率最低，這讓我們對手續費收入成長的可持續性充滿信心？

Okay. Thank you. When talking about M&A, yes, in the end, we will look at what does that do for value. And EPS is a measure to value. But in the end, it needs to be beneficial for the value of the company in terms of ROE and profitability. That's how we will look at it.

好的。謝謝。當談到併購時，是的，最後我們會看看這對價值有何影響。 EPS 是價值衡量標準。但最終，它需要有利於公司在股本回報率和獲利能力方面的價值。我們將這樣看待它。

And therefore, we also find important that when would look at an acquisition that it has tangible benefits in terms of costs and potentially revenues, especially diversification of fees that we are clear in how we would integrate this acquisition that would not take us too long.

因此，我們也發現重要的是，何時考慮一項收購，它在成本和潛在收入方面具有切實的好處，特別是費用的多樣化，我們清楚如何整合這項收購，這不會花費我們太長時間。

And that's why we have said, we would unlikely focus on a company that is very much brick-and-mortar because then we're very much focused on very long integrations and then we go very inward-focused and we have ample time -- ample ability to grow and focus externally also autonomously. So that's why we're careful. So -- but when we look at it, it means cultural-fit, quick integration, also clear digital angle in markets or, let's say, fee skills because we want to focus on the growth that we currently have rather than being very inward-focused. And in the end, it needs to help our profitability and ROE.

這就是為什麼我們說過，我們不太可能專注於一家非常實體的公司，因為這樣我們就非常專注於很長的整合，然後我們非常關注內部，我們有充足的時間——具有足夠的自主成長和關注外部的能力。所以這就是我們要小心的原因。所以——但當我們看待它時，這意味著文化契合、快速整合、市場中清晰的數字角度，或者說，收費技能，因為我們希望專注於我們目前的成長，而不是非常內向——專注。最終，它需要幫助我們的獲利能力和股本回報率。

When we look at fees, yes, that is successful in Germany, but the growth that comes from fees also in these accounts comes from various countries, it's not only Germany. But other countries like Belgium continue to grow. If you look at the Netherlands, we're actually quite underpenetrated.

當我們考慮費用時，是的，這在德國是成功的，但這些帳戶中的費用也來自不同的國家，而不僅僅是德國。但比利時等其他國家仍在持續成長。如果你看看荷蘭，我們的滲透率其實還很低。

In Spain, we're growing our customer base very nicely. In Australia we want to broaden our service offering there. We have still a narrow offer. So in most of these markets, like in Germany, we are not a true broad-based universal retail bank. We're quite a narrow digital bank and we're now gradually building this out in all the markets, not only in Germany.

在西班牙，我們的客戶群成長得非常好。在澳大利亞，我們希望擴大我們的服務範圍。我們的報價仍然很窄。因此，在大多數此類市場中，例如在德國，我們並不是一家真正的基礎廣泛的全能零售銀行。我們是一家相當狹隘的數位銀行，我們現在正在逐步在所有市場上建立這一點，而不僅僅是在德國。

And we will now take our next question from Anke Reingen of RBC.

現在我們將回答加拿大皇家銀行 (RBC) 的安克雷因根 (Anke Reingen) 提出的下一個問題。

The first is on the pass-through rates. I'm just trying to understand how conservative this is in your assumptions of going to higher levels? Are you assuming you are sort of like a price leader driving your strategy forward? Or is this largely driven by market trends?

第一個是關於傳遞率。我只是想了解您對進入更高水平的假設有多保守？您是否假設自己有點像推動策略前進的價格領導者？或者這很大程度上是由市場趨勢所驅動的？

And then secondly, on capital distribution, you're thinking about buybacks versus dividends. Would that have changed given your shares are now closer to book value and also probably considering that over a longer period of time, the 12.5% could be reached? So is there any thinking about considering changing the mix?

其次，在資本分配方面，您要考慮回購與股利。鑑於您的股票現在更接近帳面價值，並且可能考慮到在更長的時間內可以達到 12.5%，情況會改變嗎？那麼有沒有考慮改變組合呢？

Thank you, Anke. I will do the question on pass-through and Tanate will talk about the form of capital distribution.

謝謝你，安克。我將做有關傳遞的問題，塔納特將討論資本分配的形式。

Our pass-through rates are dependent on our balance sheet and client strategy. So in some markets where we're more an incumbent and we don't grow that much in the market doesn't grow so much that we can -- and where lending doesn't grow so much, we will more likely be a follower if in a market, we can use certain actions like -- yes, again, I don't want to mention Germany all the time, but let me do that one more time, where we -- and we did another additional marketing action earlier this year where in countries where marketing actions are popular, where that also leads to more customers, where there is still a big shift or a very dispersed banking landscape, okay, let's take Germany, then it will be likely that we will use some marketing actions to increase the number of customers, but we also did these promotional campaigns in Poland and Italy. And also there, we were very successful.

我們的傳遞率取決於我們的資產負債表和客戶策略。因此，在一些市場中，我們更像是一個現有者，但我們的成長幅度不夠大，而且貸款成長幅度不大，我們更有可能成為追隨者如果在市場上，我們可以採取某些行動，例如——是的，我不想一直提到德國，但讓我再這樣做一次，我們——我們之前做了另一項額外的營銷行動今年，在營銷活動很流行的國家，這也會帶來更多的客戶，仍然存在很大的轉變或銀行業格局非常分散，好吧，讓我們以德國為例，那麼我們很可能會使用一些營銷採取行動增加客戶數量，但我們還在波蘭和意大利開展了這些促銷活動。在那裡，我們也非常成功。

So typically thinking about growth markets and challenging markets, which is the term that we typically use in [C&G] markets, there you typically see that we use promotions to increase the number of customers. And typically, these campaigns are successful because if you look at the last campaign in Germany, 2/3 of the money then stuck -- was sticky with ING, which then also helps to grow the primary customer. So it's a market-by-market strategy.

因此，通常會考慮成長型市場和具有挑戰性的市場，這是我們通常在 [C&G] 市場中使用的術語，您通常會看到我們使用促銷來增加客戶數量。通常情況下，這些活動都是成功的，因為如果你看看德國的上一次活動，你會發現 2/3 的資金都被 ING 黏住了，這也有助於擴大主要客戶。所以這是一個逐個市場的策略。

Anke, just on our thinking in terms of how we distribute capital to our shareholders, probably driven by 3 things. The first one and the most important is our internal management view about the intrinsic value of ING, right? And that relates to book value or getting close to and potentially above book value.

安克，就我們如何向股東分配資本的思考而言，可能是由三件事驅動的。第一個也是最重要的是我們內部管理階層對 ING 內在價值的看法，對吧？這與帳面價值或接近或可能高於帳面價值有關。

The second one that we look at is also the potential introduction of a share buyback tax in the Netherlands. That's still uncertain, but we take that into consideration. And the third is really making sure that we balance the interest of our stakeholders, particularly looking at the total return to shareholders as a guide for us. So these are the 3 drivers in our consideration.

我們關注的第二個問題也是荷蘭可能會徵收股票回購稅。這仍然不確定，但我們考慮到了這一點。第三是真正確保我們平衡利害關係人的利益，特別是將股東的總回報作為我們的指導。這是我們考慮的 3 個驅動因素。

(Operator Instructions) We'll now move on to our next question from Hugh Moorhead of Berenberg.

（操作員說明）我們現在將繼續討論 Berenberg 的 Hugh Moorhead 提出的下一個問題。

Two from me, please, one on deposit mix and one on capital. On deposit mix, thank you for the color about the proportion of current accounts stabilizing, but do you expect much more of a shift in term deposits perhaps between savings and term? And do the conservative assumptions in your tracking speeds include conservative assumptions around future mix shift?

請給我兩份，一份關於存款組合，一份關於資本。關於存款組合，感謝您對經常帳戶比例穩定的看法，但您是否預計定期存款在儲蓄和定期存款之間可能會出現更多轉變？您的追蹤速度中的保守假設是否包括對未來混合轉變的保守假設？

And then on capital outside of the Basel IV impact guidance, are there any sort of chunky model approvals pending with regulators? Or should we just expect that might lead to a sort of sizable RWA movements in future quarters? Or should we just expect small movements Q-on-Q a bit like we've seen in Q1?

然後，在巴塞爾 IV 影響指引之外的資本方面，是否有任何類型的大型模型正在等待監管機構批准？或者我們是否應該預期這可能會導致未來幾季的 RWA 發生大規模變動？或者我們應該只期待季度間的小幅波動，就像我們在第一季看到的那樣？

Okay. I'll give the question on the deposit mix to Tanate and then capital goes to Ljiljana.

好的。我會將存款組合的問題交給 Tanate，然後資本交給 Ljiljana。

Yes. We have seen this phenomenon of reducing amount of current account going to savings and term deposits. I think given what we see in Q1, the level of competition in terms of rates on term deposits has subsided and that the rates are reflecting the yield curve that's coming up in terms of potential reductions. So we don't see at this time a further change in the deposit mix that we have at the moment.

是的。我們已經看到了經常帳戶儲蓄和定期存款金額減少的現象。我認為，鑑於我們在第一季看到的情況，定期存款利率方面的競爭水平已經減弱，而且利率反映了潛在下降方面即將出現的殖利率曲線。因此，我們目前認為存款結構不會進一步改變。

And then on the capital and RWA, correct for around 20 bps when it comes to Basel IV day 1. And you've seen as well throughout the past quarters, but we can anticipate as well for the next quarters, we do have some volatility around amounts that are going up and down when it comes to the rating models. It is clearly subject to the approvals of the models by the ECB, but as well about performance of the models and calibration based on what we see historically and around us.

然後在資本和RWA 方面，在巴塞爾IV 第1 天時修正約20 個基點。波動在評級模型方面，圍繞著上下波動的金額。顯然，這需要歐洲央行對模型的批准，但也取決於模型的性能以及基於我們歷史和周圍所見的校準。

So I would say no specific changes in this guidance. We will continue updating our models quarterly, but we do not expect higher volatility than what we've seen historically.

所以我想說本指南沒有具體變化。我們將繼續每季更新我們的模型，但我們預計波動性不會高於歷史水平。

And we will now take our next question from Mike Harrison of Redburn Atlantic.

現在我們將回答 Redburn Atlantic 的 Mike Harrison 提出的下一個問題。

Thanks for clarifying the duration of the replicating portfolio. I just wanted to ask a sort of more general question about how we should think about the duration and the mix situations within the replicating portfolio evolving as and when the yield curve is invert, which the forward Markets Day happens next year?

感謝您澄清複製投資組合的持續時間。我只是想問一個更普遍的問題，即我們應該如何考慮複製投資組合中隨著收益率曲線反轉（明年遠期市場日發生）而演變的持續時間和混合情況？

Tanate?

塔納特？

I think what we look at in terms of looking at duration, it's about managing our balance sheet and managing our interest rate risk, right? And if you look at the tracking speed in the past, the level of tracking has been below expectation. But I think at the end of the day, we will see continued shift between below 1 year and above 1 year as 2 distinct buckets, right?

我認為我們在考慮久期方面所關注的是管理我們的資產負債表和管理我們的利率風險，對吧？如果你看看過去的追蹤速度，追蹤水準一直低於預期。但我認為最終，我們將看到 1 年以下和 1 年以上之間的持續轉變，作為 2 個不同的桶，對嗎？

And that we continue to see accretion of income from the level of replication for the bucket that is more than 1 year. And then the bucket below 1 year will subside over time is like 2 pendulums on the opposite side. But as we've given the simulation, we think over a transition to 222 basis points overall, the replication income will be accretive.

我們繼續看到超過一年的複製水準帶來的收入增加。然後1年以下的水桶會隨著時間的推移而消退，就像對面的2個鐘擺一樣。但正如我們進行的模擬一樣，我們認為整體過渡到 222 個基點，複製收入將會增加。

There are no further questions in queue. I will now hand it back to Steven van Rijswijk for closing remarks. Thank you.

隊列中沒有其他問題。現在我將把它交還給 Steven van Rijswijk 作結束語。謝謝。

Yes. Thank you very much for your time and your questions. I'm sure that you will know to find -- how to find our Investor Relations team. And I hope to see all of you during Capital Markets Day on the 17th of June in wonderful London. Have a great day.

是的。非常感謝您抽出時間並提出問題。我相信您會知道如何找到我們的投資者關係團隊。我希望在 6 月 17 日資本市場日期間在美麗的倫敦見到大家。祝你有美好的一天。

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

謝謝。女士們、先生們，今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。