ING Groep NV (ING) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. This is Laura. Welcoming you to ING's 1Q 2025 conference call. Before handing this conference over to Steven van Rijswijk, Chief Executive Officer of ING Group, let me first say that today's comments may include forward-looking statements, such as statements regarding future developments in our businesses, expectations for our future financial performance and any statement not involving a historical fact.

早安.這是勞拉。歡迎您參加 ING 2025 年第一季電話會議。在將本次會議交給荷蘭國際集團首席執行官史蒂芬·範·里斯維克之前，我首先要說的是，今天的評論可能包括前瞻性陳述，例如有關我們業務未來發展的陳述、對我們未來財務業績的預期以及任何不涉及歷史事實的陳述。

Actual results may differ materially from those projected in any forward-looking statements. A discussion of factors that may cause actual results to differ from those in any forward-looking statement is contained in our public filings, including our most reason annual report on Form 20-F filed with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission and our earnings press release as posted on our website today. Furthermore, nothing in today's comments constitutes an offer to sell or a solicitation of an offer to buy any securities.

實際結果可能與任何前瞻性陳述中預測的結果有重大差異。對於可能導致實際結果與任何前瞻性聲明中的結果不同的因素的討論包含在我們的公開文件中，包括我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的 20-F 表年度報告和我們今天在我們網站上發布的收益新聞稿。此外，今天的評論不構成出售任何證券的要約或購買任何證券的要約邀請。

Good morning, Steven, over to you.

早安，史蒂文，交給你了。

Thank you very much, Laura. And good morning, and welcome to our results call for the first quarter of 2025. I hope you're all well, and thank you for joining us. As usual, I'm joined by our CFO, Ljiljana Cortan; and our CFO, Tanate Phutrakul, and we had a good start to 2025.

非常感謝，勞拉。早安，歡迎參加 2025 年第一季業績電話會議。我希望你們都很好，感謝你們加入我們。像往常一樣，我與我們的財務長 Ljiljana Cortan 和我們的財務長 Tanate Phutrakul 一起出席，我們為 2025 年帶來了良好的開端。

Today, I will show you how the strength of our franchise enabled continued commercial growth during the first quarter, as evidenced by exceptional growth in deposits and higher mortgage volumes. I will also explain how our strategy and strong business fundamentals enable us to navigate the current geopolitical and macroeconomic uncertainty.

今天，我將向大家展示我們的特許經營實力如何推動第一季商業持續成長，存款的異常增長和抵押貸款額的增加就是明證。我還將解釋我們的策略和強大的業務基礎如何幫助我們應對當前的地緣政治和宏觀經濟不確定性。

And as a leading European bank, we are well positioned to support the European economy and capture growth opportunities as we remain confident on our outlook. Later in the presentation, Tanate will walk you through the quarters, including the financial impact from the progress we're making on our strategic priorities. And at the end of the call, we will be happy to take your questions.

作為一家領先的歐洲銀行，我們完全有能力支持歐洲經濟並抓住成長機遇，因為我們對前景充滿信心。在演示的後期，Tanate 將帶您了解各個季度的情況，包括我們在策略重點方面取得的進展對財務的影響。通話結束時，我們將很樂意回答您的問題。

Now let's move to slide 2. And this slide gives more details on our strong growth trajectory in the first quarter. Our relentless focus on providing superior value for our customers has again proven to be a key differentiator. The total number of private individual customers increased to more than 40 million, and the number of customers choosing us as their primary bank grew as well.

現在我們來看投影片 2。這張投影片詳細介紹了我們第一季的強勁成長軌跡。我們堅持不懈地致力於為客戶提供卓越的價值，這再次證明是我們的關鍵差異化因素。個人私人銀行客戶總數增加至4000多萬戶，選擇我行作為首選銀行的客戶數量也不斷增加。

We also recorded significant growth in our loan book. Net core lending and retail banking grew by EUR8.6 billion, which was primarily driven by mortgages, while we also captured growth in business lending and consumer lending. In Wholesale Banking, we saw a modest decline in lending, mainly due to seasonal volatility in working capital solutions, but also as a result of consistent capital optimization.

我們的貸款帳簿也實現了顯著成長。淨核心貸款和零售銀行業務成長了 86 億歐元，主要得益於抵押貸款，同時我們也實現了商業貸款和消費者貸款的成長。在批發銀行業務中，我們的貸款略有下降，這主要是由於營運資金解決方案的季節性波動，但也是持續資本優化的結果。

On liability side, we saw exceptional growth driven by a strong inflow in Retail Germany after promotional campaign. Net growth in Wholesale Banking reflected higher short-term client balances in our -- this commercial growth also resulted in a significant increase in fee income, which was 10% higher than the first quarter of last year.

在負債方面，我們看到促銷活動過後零售德國的強勁流入推動了卓越的成長。批發銀行業務的淨成長反映了我們短期客戶餘額的增加——這種商業成長也導致費用收入大幅增加，比去年第一季高出 10%。

We continue to support clients in their sustainability transitions with the volume of sustainable finance mobilized, rising 23% from the first quarter of last year to EUR30 billion. And I'm proud to say that ING is the first global sustainable bank to have climate targets validated by the Science-based Targets Initiative.

我們持續支持客戶的永續發展轉型，調動的永續融資金額較去年第一季成長 23%，達到 300 億歐元。我很自豪地說，荷蘭國際集團是第一個氣候目標得到科學碳目標倡議組織認可的全球永續銀行。

Slide 3 summarizes how our strategy and strong fundamentals enable us to navigate the current turmoil. And let me start by saying that the introduction of tariffs and the current macroeconomic uncertainty have led to lower growth outlook worldwide. However, we remain confident in our ability to grow in line with our targets, as our diversified presence allows us to capture opportunities in different geographies and across various servers.

投影片 3 總結了我們的策略和強大的基本面如何幫助我們渡過當前的動盪。首先我想說的是，關稅的推出和當前宏觀經濟的不確定性導致全球經濟成長前景下降。然而，我們仍然對我們按照目標成長的能力充滿信心，因為我們的多元化業務使我們能夠抓住不同地區和不同伺服器的機會。

Most of our lending growth is driven by residential mortgages, which is less sensitive to changes in the economic outlook. And as one of the largest and most diversified wholesale banks, we're also well positioned to the economy and to benefit from the investment plans across Europe.

我們的大部分貸款成長是由住宅抵押貸款推動的，這對經濟前景的變化不太敏感。作為規模最大、業務最多元化的批發銀行之一，我們在經濟方面也佔據有利地位，能夠從歐洲各地的投資計劃中受益。

On asset quality, although the potential longer-term indirect impacts from our tariffs are not yet clear, we are confident that our prudent risk management framework will also prove itself going forward. Around 65% of our portfolio is fully or partially secured. We have a large and growing residential mortgage book with historically low risk costs. And in our main markets, house prices remain high and unemployment rates remain low, as stated on the next slide.

在資產品質方面，儘管我們的關稅可能帶來的長期間接影響尚不明確，但我們相信，我們審慎的風險管理框架也將在未來證明其有效性。我們的投資組合中約有 65% 是全部或部分有擔保的。我們擁有龐大且不斷成長的住宅抵押貸款帳簿，風險成本處於歷史低點。如下一張投影片所示，在我們的主要市場中，房價仍然很高，失業率仍然很低。

In Wholesale, we have further increased the portion of our exposure to investment-grade clients. Then our funding and liquidity position remains very strong. As you know, around 70% of our balance sheet is funded by granular retail deposits and we maintain strong funding and liquidity positions in all currencies.

在批發業務方面，我們進一步增加了對投資等級客戶的投資份額。我們的資金和流動性狀況仍然非常強勁。如您所知，我們的資產負債表約 70% 由細粒度零售存款提供資金，並且我們在所有貨幣中都保持著強勁的資金和流動性狀況。

And lastly, on interest rates, we have again been volatile over the past weeks. We have proven our ability to manage our margins by taking disciplined repricing actions, and we can confirm our outlook for the liability margin for 2025 to 2027 period.

最後，關於利率，過去幾週我們再次出現波動。我們已經證明了我們有能力透過嚴格的重新定價行動來管理我們的利潤率，並且我們可以確認 2025 年至 2027 年期間負債利潤率的前景。

Then we move to slide 4. And here you can see how market dynamics and our position as the leading European mortgage bank enable us to achieve continuous growth. The outlook for mortgages is positive, and we expect the market to continue growing. Mortgage demand in some of our markets, such as the Netherlands, have already recovered after a temporary dip when interest rates went up sharply. And in other countries, such as Germany, we still expect a recovery.

然後我們轉到投影片 4。在這裡您可以看到市場動態以及我們作為歐洲領先抵押貸款銀行的地位如何使我們持續成長。抵押貸款的前景是積極的，我們預計市場將繼續成長。在我們一些市場，例如荷蘭，抵押貸款需求在利率大幅上升後暫時下滑，目前已經恢復。在其他國家，例如德國，我們仍然預期會出現復甦。

In addition to this increased demand, volume growth is also supported by a sustained increase in house prices across most markets. At ING, we have been able to strengthen our mortgage offering and significantly increase our market share in those growing markets.

除了需求增加之外，大多數市場的房價持續上漲也推動了銷售成長。在 ING，我們已經能夠加強我們的抵押貸款服務並顯著提高我們在這些成長市場的市場份額。

In the Netherlands, for example, our market share in new production is currently 17% versus 10% a few years ago, supported by our strategy, which focuses on digitalization and flexible operations to facilitate new production. Default rates in our mortgage portfolio remain very strong, mostly driven by the constant low unemployment rates in our largest markets. The average loan-to-value in our mortgage book is 56%, with a low fee ratio below 1%.

例如，在荷蘭，我們在新產品中的市佔率目前為 17%，而幾年前僅為 10%，這得益於我們的策略，該策略專注於數位化和靈活的營運以促進新產品的生產。我們的抵押貸款組合的違約率仍然很高，主要是由於我們最大市場的失業率持續處於低位。我們的抵押貸款帳簿中的平均貸款價值比為 56%，費用率低於 1%。

And on the next slide, I will show that we see growth opportunities in Wholesale Banking as well. Because as we are one of the most geographically diversified banks in Europe, with leading positions in lending across many markets, we are really well positioned to support the investment initiatives. We have strong expertise in key focus sectors, such as infrastructure and TMT, and we have adopted a more proactive stance on defense-related funding.

在下一張投影片中，我將展示我們在批發銀行業務中也看到了成長機會。因為我們是歐洲地域分佈最廣泛的銀行之一，在許多市場貸款領域佔據領先地位，所以我們完全有能力支持投資計劃。我們在基礎設施和TMT等重點領域擁有豐富的專業知識，並且在國防相關融資方面採取了更積極主動的立場。

In this sector, we, of course our policy to make sure that what we find as is responsible, but within that context, we're open to finance -- initiatives to safeguard European security. And the amount there is picking up, and we see this reflected in our pipeline as well. And while we do see a growth opportunity in Europe, we will also remain focused on optimizing our capital usage in the Wholesale Bank as we have shown over the last few quarters.

在這一領域，我們的政策當然是確保我們所發現的東西是負責任的，但在此背景下，我們願意為維護歐洲安全的舉措提供資金。那裡的數量正在增加，我們也看到這一點反映在我們的管道上。雖然我們確實看到了歐洲的成長機會，但正如過去幾個季度所表明的那樣，我們也將繼續專注於優化批發銀行的資本使用。

On slide 6, we highlight that our robust capital position and strong results have allowed us to consistently distribute cash and deliver value to shareholders. Our CET1 ratio came in at 13.6% at the end of the first quarter, and this includes the impact of the implementation of Basel IV and the 20% stake in Van Lanschot Kempen. And with the acquisition of this financial stake, we have further increased the capital allocation towards Retail Banking in line with our strategy.

在第 6 張投影片上，我們強調，我們強大的資本狀況和強勁的業績使我們能夠持續分配現金並為股東創造價值。我們的第一季末的 CET1 比率為 13.6%，其中包括實施巴塞爾協議 IV 和 Van Lanschot Kempen 20% 股份的影響。透過收購這筆金融股份，我們根據我們的策略進一步增加了對零售銀行業務的資本配置。

Today, we announced another share buyback of EUR2 billion. And including this amount, we have distributed over EUR28 billion to shareholders since 2021, and we are committed to providing an attractive shareholder return going forward.

今天，我們宣布再次回購20億歐元的股票。包括這筆款項在內，自 2021 年以來，我們已向股東分配了超過 280 億歐元，並致力於在未來提供有吸引力的股東回報。

Our CET1 ratio target is unchanged at 12.5%, but we're still to end this year at a slightly higher level as we take the prevailing macroeconomic and geopolitical uncertainty into account in line with our distribution policy. And now steer on a CET1 ratio between 12.8% and 30% by the end of 2025. We will update the market on next steps with our third quarter results this year as per our normal rhythm, that is about distributions, I mean.

我們的 CET1 比率目標保持不變，為 12.5%，但由於我們在製定分銷政策時考慮到了當前的宏觀經濟和地緣政治不確定性，因此我們仍將在今年年底達到略高的水平。到 2025 年底，CET1 比率將維持在 12.8% 至 30% 之間。我們將按照正常節奏向市場更新今年第三季的業績，也就是有關分銷的後續進展。

Then on to slide 7. I would like to emphasize again that we remain confident on our ability to execute on our strategy even in these more volatile markets, and this is also reflected in our strong performance in the first quarter. And we, therefore, reconfirm our outlook for 2025, including the refinement of our CET1 target and reiterate our targets for 2027.

然後翻到第 7 張投影片。我想再次強調，即使在這些更動盪的市場中，我們仍然對我們執行策略的能力充滿信心，這也反映在我們第一季的強勁表現中。因此，我們再次確認了對 2025 年的展望，包括完善我們的 CET1 目標，並重申了我們對 2027 年的目標。

And now I will hand over to Tanate, who will take you through the results of the first quarter in more detail, starting on slide 9. Tanate, over to you.

現在我將把時間交給 Tanate，從第 9 張投影片開始，他將向大家更詳細地介紹第一季的結果。Tanate，交給你了。

Thank you, Steven. I would like to start on slide 9, where we show the development of our total income, which increased significantly compared to the previous quarter. Commercial NII was resilient and was supported by an exceptional growth in deposits and the continued growth of our mortgage portfolio. Fee income increased significantly and grew by 10% compared to last year. We're confident that most of this growth is structural, and I'll explain why in a few minutes.

謝謝你，史蒂文。我想從第 9 張投影片開始，我們在這裡展示我們的總收入的發展情況，與上一季相比，我們的總收入有大幅成長。商業 NII 具有韌性，並受到存款的異常增長和抵押貸款組合的持續增長的支持。手續費收入大幅增加，比去年同期成長10%。我們相信，這種增長大部分是結構性的，我將在幾分鐘內解釋原因。

Lastly, all other income, which is a combination of other NII investment income and other income was supported by strong client activity in Financial Markets and good results in Treasury.

最後，所有其他收入（其他 NII 投資收入和其他收入的組合）受到金融市場強勁的客戶活動和財政部良好績效的支持。

Now let's move to slide 10, where we show the growth in customer balances. What is clearly visible in this slide is that our commercial growth has continued in the first quarter of this year. Our net core lending grew by EUR6.8 billion which was again mostly driven by strong performance in residential mortgage market.

現在我們看第 10 張投影片，其中展示了客戶餘額的成長。從這張投影片中可以清楚地看到，今年第一季我們的商業持續成長。我們的核心淨貸款成長了 68 億歐元，這主要得益於住宅抵押貸款市場的強勁表現。

As Steven already explained, we have been able to further increase our market share in a growing market situation, which resulted in EUR6 billion of growth in mortgages. We were also able to grow in consumer lending and business lending.

正如史蒂文已經解釋的那樣，我們已經能夠在不斷增長的市場情況下進一步提高我們的市場份額，從而導致抵押貸款增加了 60 億歐元。我們的消費貸款和商業貸款也實現了成長。

In Wholesale Banking, we saw seasonal volatility in balances for working capital solution, and we continue our efforts to optimize capital usage. On the liability side, we saw core deposits increase by almost EUR23 billion in the first quarter due to strong performance in both Retail and Wholesale Banking. This strong growth underscores our ability to attract deposits.

在企業銀行業務中，我們發現營運資金解決方案餘額有季節性波動，我們將繼續努力優化資金使用。在負債方面，由於零售銀行和批發銀行業務表現強勁，第一季核心存款增加了近230億歐元。這種強勁的成長凸顯了我們吸引存款的能力。

In Retail, growth was particularly coming from Germany, mainly driven by a successful promotional campaign. In the Wholesale segment, the growth mainly reflected higher client balances of our cash pooling business which can be volatile.

在零售業，成長尤其來自德國，主要得益於成功的促銷活動。在批發業務領域，成長主要反映了現金池業務的客戶餘額增加，而該業務可能會出現波動。

On slide 11, you can see our commercial NII was resilient. Liability NII increased a strong growth in customer balances, and our repricing action compensated for lower ECB deposit facility rates. It also included a structural shift from other NII to liability NII.

在第 11 張投影片上，您可以看到我們的商業 NII 具有彈性。負債NII推動了客戶餘額的強勁成長，我們的重新定價行動彌補了較低的ECB存款便利利率。它還包括從其他國家資訊基礎設施到責任國家資訊基礎設施的結構性轉變。

On lending NII was broadly stable. However, the growth in balances was offset by lower margin, which is driven by a continued mix shift towards mortgages, which have a higher ROE but a lower margin. It also reflects the impact of having two fewer days in the quarter. On commercial net interest margin which is based on commercial NII was stable quarter-on-quarter.

貸款方面，NII 整體保持穩定。然而，餘額的成長被利潤率的下降所抵消，這是由於業務結構持續向抵押貸款轉變所致，抵押貸款的淨資產收益率較高，但利潤率較低。這也反映了本季減少兩天的影響。基於商業NII的商業淨利差環比保持穩定。

Turning to slide 12. Fee income growth year-on-year was again almost double digit, mostly driven by structural revenue drivers or, as we call it, alpha. Growth in Retail Banking was driven by strong performance in investment products as well as higher daily banking fees. The strong performance in investment products was driven by further growth in active investment product customer and increase in asset under management and much higher customer trading activities.

翻到第 12 張投影片。費用收入年增率再次接近兩位數，主要受結構性收入驅動因素（或我們所謂的阿爾法）的推動。零售銀行業務的成長得益於投資產品的強勁表現以及每日銀行費用的提高。投資產品的強勁表現得益於活躍投資產品客戶的進一步成長、資產管理規模的增加以及客戶交易活動的大幅增加。

Daily banking fees rose on the back of strong customer growth and an updated pricing for payment packages. In addition, Retail Banking grew its fee income from insurance products and also from lending, but that was more than offset by lower fee from lending in Wholesale Banking. Given the strong performance across the bank, we remain confident that we can grow our fee income by the 5% to 10% this year, and reaching our EUR5 billion goal target in 2027.

由於客戶數量強勁成長以及支付套餐價格更新，每日銀行費用有所上漲。此外，零售銀行業務的保險產品和貸款費用收入有所成長，但批發銀行業務的貸款費用下降卻抵銷了零售銀行業務的收入成長。鑑於全行的強勁表現，我們仍然有信心今年我們的費用收入可以成長 5% 至 10%，並在 2027 年實現 50 億歐元的目標。

On slide 13, we show development of all other income. Financial Markets had a strong quarter as we benefited from increased client activity and favorable market conditions. Treasury has a good quarter as well with income up on both comparable quarters mainly driven by strong results from FX ratio hedging. And we also received an interim dividend from our stake in the Bank of Beijing.

在投影片 13 上，我們展示了所有其他收入的發展。由於我們受益於客戶活動的增加和有利的市場條件，金融市場本季表現強勁。財政部本季的業績也表現良好，兩個可比季度的收入均有所增加，這主要得益於外匯比率對沖的強勁業績。我們也從所持北京銀行股份中獲得了中期股利。

On slide 14, our operating expenses, excluding regulatory costs and incidental items increased by just over 6% in the first three months of the year. This is in line with our guidance, and we still expect these expenses to end up in line with our outlook for the full year 2025 or between EUR12.5 billion to EUR12.7 billion. This increase was mainly driven by the inflationary pressure and our continued investment in business growth, particularly in customer acquisition, developing products for new customer segments and in building and scaling our tech platform.

在第 14 張投影片上，我們的營運費用（不包括監管成本和雜費）在今年前三個月增加了 6% 多一點。這符合我們的指導，我們仍然預計這些支出最終將與我們對 2025 年全年的展望一致，即在 125 億歐元至 127 億歐元之間。這一成長主要得益於通膨壓力以及我們對業務成長的持續投資，特別是在客戶獲取、為新客戶群開發產品以及建立和擴展我們的技術平台方面。

Operational efficiencies translated for a part of these increases as we continue to digitize our services and infrastructure to further increase our operational leverage. We have, for example, used generative AI to improve the customer proposition in contact centers and in our know-your-customer processes, which has also resulted in lower expenses.

隨著我們繼續數位化我們的服務和基礎設施以進一步提高我們的營運槓桿，營運效率的提高是這些成長的一部分。例如，我們使用生成式人工智慧來改善聯絡中心和了解客戶流程中的客戶主張，這也降低了成本。

On the risk cost side, on the next slide, slide 15, total risk cost was EUR313 million this quarter or 18 basis points of average customer lending, which is below our through-the-cycle average. Net addition to Stage 3 provision amounted to EUR215 million and were mainly related to collective provisioning in the consumer and business lending portfolio.

在風險成本方面，在下一張投影片（第 15 張）中，本季總風險成本為 3.13 億歐元，或平均客戶貸款的 18 個基點，低於我們的週期平均值。第三階段撥備淨增加額為 2.15 億歐元，主要與消費者和商業貸款組合中的集體撥備有關。

Individual Stage 3 cost decrease, reflecting lower new inflows and low provision in Wholesale Banking, driven by repayments and recoveries. Stage 1 and Stage 2 risk costs were EUR98 million mainly reflecting an update of the macroeconomic forecast, model updates and some risk migration. We remain confident in the quality of our loan book. This is also reflecting a decrease in Stage 2 and Stage 3 ratio.

個別第三階段成本下降，反映受償還和回收資金推動，批發銀行業務新流入資金減少和撥備減少。第 1 階段和第 2 階段風險成本為 9,800 萬歐元，主要反映宏觀經濟預測的更新、模型更新和一些風險遷移。我們對我們的貸款品質仍然充滿信心。這也反映了第 2 階段和第 3 階段比例的下降。

Slide 16 shows the development of our core Tier 1 ratio, which is increasing slightly from the levels of year-end 2024, as higher risk weight was more than offset by strong capital generation. The impacts of Basel IV and other model updates on our risk-weighted assets was a negative EUR1.4 billion. So that's an improvement on capital. If we exclude this impact and the impact from foreign exchange movements, credit risk weight increased by EUR5.2 billion, mainly driven by volume growth in Retail Banking.

幻燈片 16 顯示了我們核心一級資本充足率的發展情況，該比率較 2024 年底的水平略有上升，因為更高的風險權重被強勁的資本生成所抵消。巴塞爾協議 IV 和其他模型更新對我們的風險加權資產的影響為負 14 億歐元。所以這是資本的改善。如果排除此影響和外匯變動的影響，信用風險權重將增加 52 億歐元，主要受零售銀行業務量成長的推動。

Operational risk weight remained flat, while market risk weight increased by EUR1.3 billion, again, excluding the impact of Basel IV and other model updates. Today, we announced next share buyback program of EUR2 billion, which will have a pro forma impact of 59 basis points on our core Tier 1.

操作風險權重保持不變，而市場風險權重增加了 13 億歐元，同樣不包括巴塞爾協議 IV 和其他模型更新的影響。今天，我們宣布了下一輪 20 億歐元的股票回購計劃，這將對我們的核心一級資本產生 59 個基點的預測影響。

Now Steven would like to wrap up before going into Q&A.

現在，史蒂文想在進入問答環節之前先做個總結。

Thanks, Tanate. And indeed, I would like to recap a few key messages before going into the Q&A.

謝謝，Tanate。事實上，在進入問答環節之前，我想重述幾個關鍵訊息。

First of all, we have had a very strong start of the year, with outstanding commercial growth, resilient commercial NII and strong fee growth, which has allowed us to announce the next share buyback program. Furthermore, our strategy and strong fundamentals enable us to navigate the current geopolitical and macroeconomic uncertainty.

首先，我們今年開局非常強勁，商業業務成長出色，商業 NII 表現強勁，費用成長強勁，這使我們能夠宣布下一個股票回購計畫。此外，我們的策略和強勁的基本面使我們能夠應對當前的地緣政治和宏觀經濟不確定性。

As one of the leading European banks, we're well positioned to support the economy and capture growth opportunities, and we are therefore confident in our ability to execute on our strategy going forward and to reconfirm our 2025 outlook and 2027 targets.

作為歐洲領先的銀行之一，我們有能力支持經濟並抓住成長機會，因此，我們有信心執行未來的策略，並重申我們的 2025 年展望和 2027 年目標。

And with that, I would like to open the floor for Q&A. Operator?

現在，我想開始問答環節。操作員？

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Benoit Petratque, Kepler Cheuvreux.

伯努瓦·佩特拉克（Benoit Petratque），開普勒·肖弗勒（Kepler Cheuvreux）。

Yes, good morning. So I've got two questions. The first one is on the liability and lending margin, and the second one is on the share buybank. So maybe starting with the liability margin, I guess the 101 bps posted in Q1 is the strongest given versus expectations. What is your view on liability margin for the rest of the year?

是的，早安。我有兩個問題。第一個是關於負債和貸款保證金，第二個是關於股票購買銀行。因此，也許從負債保證金開始，我猜測第一季公佈的 101 個基點是與預期相比最強勁的。您對今年剩餘時間的負債保證金有何看法？

I think in the previous quarter, you put a comment that it could drop temporarily below the 100 bps mark. I'm just wondering is it still something you expect? I don't see any similar comments in the Q1 presentation.

我認為在上一季您曾評論說它可能會暫時跌破 100 個基點。我只是想知道這是否仍是您所期望的？我在 Q1 簡報中沒有看到任何類似的評論。

And then on lending margin, also again, could you maybe give us a bit of a kind of update on the guidance, which was at 130 bps before? And also clarify the impact of day count, specifically in the first quarter. And also if you continue to expect the mix effect to be negative in the coming quarters on lending margin. And then maybe just briefly on buyback. It was just to get a bit of a view of how you got to the 12.8%, 13%, what have been the consideration taken on board to get to that level? Thank you very much.

然後關於貸款保證金，同樣，您能否給我們提供一些有關指導的更新信息，之前是 130 個基點？並澄清天數計算的影響，特別是在第一季。而且如果您繼續預期未來幾季的混合效應會對貸款保證金產生負面影響。然後可能只是簡要地談論回購。我只是想稍微了解一下你們是如何達到 12.8%、13% 的，為了達到這個水平你們考慮了哪些因素？非常感謝。

All right. Thank you very much, Benoit. And Tanate will take the questions on liability lending margins, and let me answer you the question with share buyback. Look, we have a target of around 12.5%. Clearly, the world now knows quite some volatility and macroeconomic uncertainty, given that terror and all the discussions that are going on.

好的。非常感謝，Benoit。Tanate 將回答有關負債貸款保證金的問題，而我將回答有關股票回購的問題。你看，我們的目標是 12.5% 左右。顯然，鑑於恐怖活動和正在進行的所有討論，世界現在面臨相當大的動盪和宏觀經濟不確定性。

And in that setting, we have said we want to be prudent. And in that mix or fork, if you want to call it that way, we are targeting for 2025, 12.8% to 13%, but our longer-term target remains 12.5%.

在這種環境下，我們說過我們要謹慎行事。在這種組合或分叉中（如果你想這樣稱呼它），我們的目標是 2025 年達到 12.8% 至 13%，但我們的長期目標仍然是 12.5%。

Benoit, to answer your question on liability NII first. I think our expectation is that our net interest margin on liability will remain at roughly similar levels in Q2, okay? What has -- we've seen in Q1 in terms of our optimism is that the volume growth has been strong. As you know, in a number of markets, we have had significant rate cuts, including the Netherlands, and we have seen no reduction in terms of balances based on those rate cuts, which means that if we had to take further rate cuts, we are confident in the resilience of our liability franchise. Okay.

Benoit，首先回答您關於責任 NII 的問題。我認為我們的預期是，我們的負債淨利差將在第二季保持大致相同的水平，好嗎？就我們樂觀的觀點而言，第一季的銷售成長強勁。如您所知，在包括荷蘭在內的多個市場，我們都大幅降低了利率，但這些降息並沒有導致餘額減少，這意味著，如果我們不得不進一步降低利率，我們對我們的負債業務的彈性充滿信心。好的。

Then in terms of lending margin, yes. So the lending margin is coming down a little bit in Q2. I think it's driven by three impact. First is the day count impact, which has an impact of approximately 1.5 basis points. The lending mix has changed, particularly strong growth in terms of mortgages, and the mix in terms of wholesale banking has also changed.

那麼就貸款保證金而言，是的。因此，第二季的貸款利潤率略有下降。我認為這是由三種影響驅動的。首先是天數影響，其影響約為 1.5 個基點。貸款結構發生了變化，特別是抵押貸款的強勁增長，批發銀行業務的結構也發生了變化。

So those are the second.

這些是第二個。

And the third is that the funding of the mortgage book has lengthened somewhat in light of interest rate movements. So that is something on lending margin. But I think guidance for the rest of the year, we don't give that guidance on lending margin. But I give you the components of what's moving the margin during the course of Q1.

第三，鑑於利率變動，抵押貸款的融資期限有所延長。這就是有關貸款保證金的事情。但我認為，對於今年剩餘時間的指導，我們不會給予有關貸款保證金的指導。但我向你們介紹了第一季期間影響利潤率的因素。

Great. Thank you very much.

偉大的。非常感謝。

Giulia Aurora Miotto, Morgan Stanley.

朱莉婭·奧羅拉·米奧托，摩根士丹利。

Yeah, hi, good morning, and thank you for taking my questions. So I, the first one is a quick follow-up on the 12.8% to 13% just to reassure the market. Did that involve any ECB request? And if the situation normalizes, do you plan to go back to 12.5%?

是的，你好，早安，謝謝你回答我的問題。因此，我首先要快速跟進 12.8% 至 13% 的增速，以讓市場放心。這是否涉及任何歐洲央行的請求？如果情況恢復正常，您是否計劃回到 12.5%？

And then secondly, to stay on the capital topic. During the quarter, you have taken a stake in Van Lanschot and there have been headlines around potential M&A activity in Spain and Italy. So can you please comment on whether you are indeed looking at something explain in Italy and whether you would consider buying something which is sort of an old school bank with branches even if you are mostly digital in these countries. Thank you.

其次，繼續討論首都話題。在本季度，您已入股 Van Lanschot，有關西班牙和義大利潛在併購活動的報導也成為頭條新聞。那麼，您能否評論一下，您是否確實在考慮意大利的某些東西，以及您是否會考慮購買某種老式銀行，這種銀行有分支機構，即使在這些國家/地區主要是數位化的。謝謝。

All right. Thank you, Giulia, for your questions. And now let me confirm the 12.8% to 13% is our own decision. It has nothing to do with the ECB. So this was not been discussed with the ECB.

好的。謝謝茱莉亞的提問。現在讓我確認一下，12.8%到13%是我們自己的決定。這與歐洲央行無關。因此我們並未與歐洲央行討論此事。

As such, we have just taken it on decision based on what we see. Nothing more, nothing less. And the goal remains 12.5%, and everybody knows that, including the ECB. On you start with Van Lanschot, but you basically the question is about are you looking at acquisitions? And then where are you going to look at acquisitions, I believe, would you buy an all school bank.

因此，我們只是根據所見所聞做出了決定。不多不少。目標仍然是 12.5%，每個人都知道這一點，包括歐洲央行。您從 Van Lanschot 開始，但基本上您的問題是您是否正在考慮收購？那麼，我認為您將如何看待收購，您會購買一家全學校銀行嗎？

We are very pleased with our autonomous strategy, where we also on Capital Markets Day, said that we want to diversify more, diversify within existing segments in Gen Z or mass affluent, for example, whereby we want to provide more specific propositions to our existing customer base.

我們對我們的自主策略感到非常滿意，在資本市場日我們也表示，我們希望實現更多多元化，例如在 Z 世代或大眾富裕階層的現有細分市場中實現多元化，從而我們希望為現有客戶群提供更具體的建議。

Diversification in terms of deeper product capabilities and wholesale banking and financial markets and transaction services in the markets, which are active, and diversification in terms of filling in the blanks, if you will. If for example, Business Banking, Consumer Lending, Private Banking and Wealth Management, markets where we are active but don't have these activities as yet. We have these activities, for example, in Belgium and the Netherlands, but not all of them -- but not all of them in Germany and Spain and Italy and other markets. So that's what we're doing, and we're good at it.

如果你願意的話，多樣化是指更深層的產品能力、批發銀行和金融市場以及活躍的市場交易服務方面的多樣化，以及填補空白方面的多樣化。例如，商業銀行、消費者貸款、私人銀行和財富管理，這些市場我們都很活躍，但目前還沒有進行這些活動。例如，我們在比利時和荷蘭開展了這些活動，但不是全部——也不是全部在德國、西班牙、義大利和其他市場開展。這就是我們正在做的事情，而且我們做得很好。

At the same time, if we can accelerate that growth, if it is a skill or a product that we do not have or if it can increase our domestic market position because retail is still largely a local scale game given the compartmentalization of regulation in Europe, then we will look at it, and we are looking at it in the marketing which are active. And then it has to also fulfill our strict M&A and ROE criteria that we have, and that's how we will look at it. And when there is something to tell you about it, we will, but there's currently nothing to comment about any specific opportunity.

同時，如果我們能夠加速這一成長，如果它是一種我們沒有的技能或產品，或者如果它可以提高我們的國內市場地位（因為考慮到歐洲監管的條塊分割，零售在很大程度上仍然是一種地方規模的遊戲），那麼我們就會考慮它，而且我們正在積極的營銷中考慮它。然後它還必須滿足我們嚴格的併購和 ROE 標準，這就是我們看待它的方式。當有事情要告訴你時，我們會告訴你，但目前對於任何具​​體的機會都沒有任何評論。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Harri, KBW.

哈里，KBW。

Hi there. Could I ask on slide 23, and I appreciate you're quite consistent here in getting the quarter end forward curve. But just given the rates have been quite volatile, if we roll forward a month, I would guess that the kind of the EUR9 billion in 2025 would move towards EUR8 million. But I'm just wondering with the steeper yield curve, is that kind of EUR10 billion number in 2027, is that a little more sticky?

你好呀。可以問一下第 23 張投影片嗎？我很欣賞您在獲取季度末遠期曲線方面非常一致。但考慮到利率一直非常不穩定，如果我們向前推進一個月，我猜 2025 年的 90 億歐元將會變成 800 萬歐元。但我只是想知道，隨著殖利率曲線的陡峭化，到 2027 年，這個 100 億歐元的數字是否會更加棘手？

And then my second question is on the wholesale business. I can see the RWAs are coming down and that's in line with the strategy. But I was a bit surprised that the FTEs are increasing. It's up 5% this quarter and up 11% year-on-year. So any color on that would be helpful.

我的第二個問題是關於批發業務的。我可以看到風險加權資產正在下降，這符合策略。但我對全職員工人數的增加感到有些驚訝。本季上漲5%，較去年同期上漲11%。因此任何顏色都會有幫助。

Thank you very much, Hari. I will give the question on Page 23 to Tanate. When it comes to the FTE in Wholesale Banking, yes, it has to do with more fee business. So that we are broadening our capabilities in financial markets, which by the way, had a very good quarter. We're putting salespeople more on the ground to be able to diversify better.

非常感謝，哈利。我將把第 23 頁的問題交給 Tanate。說到批發銀行業務的全職當量 (FTE)，是的，它與更多的收費業務有關。因此，我們正在拓展我們在金融市場的能力，順便說一句，我們本季的金融市場表現非常好。我們把更多的銷售人員安排到實地，以便更好地多元化。

And that's why we continue to invest there as well. And that's why you see the FTEs going up.

這就是我們繼續在那裡投資的原因。這就是你看到 FTE 上升的原因。

So we -- that capability in our operations and where we reach more stability, we can also invest more in either our sales capabilities, our product abilities or our tech platforms.

因此，我們——在我們的營運中以及在我們達到更穩定的時候，我們也可以在我們的銷售能力、產品能力或技術平台上投入更多。

Hi, Haru, on Page 23, as you see, we're consistent in providing this every quarter to show the impact. And I think what we have done also during the course of the last six months has been extending the duration of the replication, so that instead of 50-50 duration, we have now gone to 55-45, which should help stabilize a bit replication results in '26 and '27. We also are quite demonstrating quite strong engine in terms of liability growth in the first quarter, and we expect that trend to continue into the rest of the year.

你好，Haru，在第 23 頁，如你所見，我們每個季度都會提供此內容來顯示其影響。我認為，我們在過去六個月中所做的就是延長複製的持續時間，因此，我們現在不再是 50-50 的持續時間，而是 55-45，這應該有助於穩定 26 年和 27 年的複製結果。我們在第一季的負債成長方面也表現出相當強勁的動力，我們預計這一趨勢將持續到今年剩餘時間。

And lastly, of course, we manage for margin, right? That you can see that we have taken significant rate action in the first quarter of this year with a full year impact of EUR1 billion. And that our room in terms of cutting rates remains in place. For every 10 basis points cut, it means EUR400 million additional revenue. So those are some of the components to describe a bit what's happening and how levers that we could pull in terms of stabilizing our replicated revenue.

最後，當然，我們要設法獲得利潤，對吧？您可以看到，我們在今年第一季採取了重大利率行動，全年影響達 10 億歐元。我們的降息空間仍然存在。每降息10個基點，就意味著增加4億歐元的收入。因此，這些是一些組成部分，用來描述正在發生的事情以及我們可以如何利用槓桿來穩定我們的複製收入。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Farquhar Murray, Autonomous.

法誇爾·默里，自治。

Morning, I just had two questions, if I may. Firstly, I mean, deposit volumes are clearly running better than the 4%. You seem to expect that to continue to integrate and replicate dynamics better. So I just wondered why you perhaps maybe on edging NII guidance a bit better. On the other hand, I presume the 130 bps on lending margins, they're probably a little bit stretching given the dynamics you outlined earlier.

早安，如果可以的話，我只有兩個問題。首先，我的意思是，存款量明顯高於4%。您似乎期望能夠繼續更好地整合和複製動態。所以我只是想知道為什麼你也許會對 NII 指導做出更好的調整。另一方面，我認為貸款保證金為 130 個基點，考慮到您之前概述的動態，這些保證金可能有點過高。

And then secondly, on the CET1 targeting for full year '25, I mean, it's early in the year, the tariffs discussion could frankly settle out as quickly as it flared up. In those circumstances, would you revert back to the 12.5% CET1 target for this year end? Or when realistically might you do that?

其次，關於 2025 年全年的 CET1 目標，我的意思是，現在是年初，關稅討論可能會像它爆發時一樣迅速平息。在這種情況下，您會在今年年底恢復 12.5% 的 CET1 目標嗎？或者你什麼時候才有可能真正做到這一點？

On the CET1 target, look, there is quite a bit of uncertainty. And we want to at least remain consistent. That was consistency right now. So for '25, we stick to that target. And then depending on how things will be, then we're going to move back to the 12.5%.

關於 CET1 目標，存在相當多的不確定性。我們至少希望保持一致。這就是現在的一致性。因此，對於 25 年，我們堅持這一目標。然後根據情況的發展，我們將回到 12.5%。

Then on liability margin and the volume outperformance in Q1, I emphasize it's only Q1. So in fact, it's early in the year, we are much more optimistic and confident in maintaining our net interest margin or liability, but no change in guidance for now.

然後關於負債保證金和第一季的交易量表現，我強調這只是第一季。因此，事實上，現在是年初，我們對維持淨利差或負債更加樂觀和有信心，但目前指導方針沒有變化。

Thanks much.

非常感謝。

Tarik El Mejjad, Bank of America.

梅賈德 (Tarik El Mejjad)，美國銀行。

Hi, good morning, everyone. Just two questions from me as well. On the margins first, can you explain a bit the deposit growth strategy you have in Germany? And this campaign targets, what exactly -- what type of deposits and what's your plan for the rest of the year on this?

大家好，早安。我也想問兩個問題。首先從利潤率角度，能否解釋一下您在德國的存款成長策略？這次活動的目標究竟是什麼－什麼類型的存款？您對今年剩餘時間有什麼計劃？

And still on the margins, you mentioned before, Tanate, that your portfolio was purely to replicate the positive behaviors and you're not playing with duration or mix, and now you've shifted from 40-50 to 50-50 and now 55-45. How is that, I mean, are you still willing to actually pull it even further if the rate pressure intensified to maintain your leverage margin around 100, 110?

仍然在邊緣上，Tanate，你之前提到過，你的投資組合純粹是為了複製積極的行為，而你沒有考慮持續時間或組合，現在你已經從 40-50 轉向 50-50，現在是 55-45。我的意思是，如果利率壓力加劇，您是否仍願意進一步拉高利率，以將槓桿率維持在 100、110 左右？

And then on the capital return, I mean, to follow-up on Farqu's question on reversing back. I mean, I just, I don't want to be too cynical here. But if, let's say, I mean, situation improved a bit better, I mean, this capital higher capital target is not also a bit to gather or retain some capital for potentially M&A? Or is it purely macro-driven kind of uncertainty driven? Yes, I'll keep it here.

然後關於資本回報，我的意思是跟進 Farqu 關於逆轉的問題。我的意思是，我只是不想在這裡太憤世嫉俗。但是，如果情況有所改善，那麼更高的資本目標是否也有助於為潛在的併購聚集或保留一些資本？或者它純粹是由宏觀不確定性驅動的？是的，我會把它留在這裡。

All right. Thanks, Tarik. I'll take the one on capital and on deposit strategy, and then Tanate will talk about duration. On the deposit strategy, look, I mean, we have a great deal of experience on these customer acquisition campaigns and we've done this for decades. So we know fairly well what to do at which point in time and what to expect.

好的。謝謝，塔里克。我將討論資本和存款策略，然後 Tanate 將討論持續時間。關於存款策略，我的意思是，我們在這些客戶獲取活動方面擁有豐富的經驗，而且我們已經這樣做了幾十年。因此，我們非常清楚在什麼時間點該做什麼以及會發生什麼。

And therefore, we've seen that in Germany previously as well, but also in other markets that we deploy these campaigns.

因此，我們之前在德國也看到過這種情況，但我們在其他市場也部署了這些活動。

And these campaigns basically then are aimed either as fresh money, that should show an NPV. Fresh money obviously existing customers that we've shown positive NPV on a 12-month basis, or if they are linked to new-to-customer banks and they show a 2- to 3-year payback period. And again, the target of course is that we make these guys primary customers, because then they will do more business with us at higher ROE levels.

這些活動基本上都是為了獲得新資金，這應該會顯示 NPV。新資金顯然是現有客戶，我們在 12 個月的基礎上顯示出正的 NPV，或者如果他們與新客戶銀行有聯繫，他們顯示出 2 到 3 年的回報期。當然，我們的目標就是讓這些人成為我們的主要客戶，因為這樣他們就會在更高的 ROE 水平上與我們做更多的生意。

And so these campaigns are very targeted, very precise, very data-driven, which means that we continuously monitor what they do, how much money will remain in the bank. And we've seen the success of that over the past couple of years. And that's how we go about that. And again, you saw it this quarter, we had a very successful campaign in Germany. And in each market, we continuously look at and discuss where and how do we plan these campaigns to get money in and get more customers to work with us because it drives scalability and that drives ROE. Tanate?

因此，這些活動非常有針對性、非常精確、非常以數據為導向，這意味著我們會持續監控他們的行動以及銀行裡還剩下多少錢。在過去的幾年裡，我們已經看到了它的成功。這就是我們的處理方式。再次，正如您在本季度看到的，我們在德國開展了非常成功的活動。在每個市場中，我們都會不斷觀察和討論在哪裡以及如何規劃這些活動來獲取資金並吸引更多客戶與我們合作，因為這可以提高可擴展性，從而提高 ROE。塔納特？

Yes. On duration, you're right, basically, we manage duration on a basis of maintaining stable balance sheet, right? That is what is our hedging goal. And as interest rates starts to decline sharply in the next the last few months, we have also adjusted the duration to the anticipated client behavior situation that we have. And as a side effect of that by increasing the duration it brings further stability to our income in '26 and '27.

是的。關於持續時間，您說得對，基本上，我們在維持穩定資產負債表的基礎上管理持續時間，對嗎？這就是我們的對沖目標。隨著未來幾個月利率開始急劇下降，我們也根據預期的客戶行為調整了期限。而透過增加持續時間，它的副作用是為我們 26 年和 27 年的收入帶來進一步的穩定。

And then on the third question, I forgot, Tarik, everybody is entitled to their own cynicism. But I can assure you, this is only because of the macroeconomic circumstances, nothing else.

然後關於第三個問題，我忘了，塔里克，每個人都有權利表達自己的憤世嫉俗。但我可以向你保證，這只是因為宏觀經濟環境，沒有其他原因。

Okay, thank you very much.

好的，非常感謝。

Benjamin Goy, Deutsche Bank.

德意志銀行的班傑明‧戈伊 (Benjamin Goy)。

Good morning and Two questions from my side. So the first on loan growth. You mentioned a healthy pipeline in Wholesale Banking, but maybe you can speak a bit about how much more specific it has become and and how much confidence you have in an improving outlook from here? And then secondly, on financial specifically, maybe you can explain again why a minority stake is the right amount of investment?

早上好，我有兩個問題。首先是貸款成長。您提到了批發銀行業務的健康管道，但也許您可以談談它現在變得多麼具體，以及您對未來改善的前景有多大信心？其次，具體到財務方面，也許您可以再次解釋為什麼少數股權是合適的投資金額？

All right. I think if you look at loan growth in the Wholesale Bank, look, what we do see is very healthy pipelines. And I think that if you look at our Wholesale Bank, which has good global diversification, but also a very good diversification in Europe, with strong typically top 5 lending positions in most of the markets in which we're active in Europe, which is 20% plus, then we can benefit quite a bit from, let's say, investment push that Europe wants to give an infrastructure and defense and in technology. And also the plan that Germany has, it will always take a while for these plans to come to fruition. So the pipeline is healthy.

好的。我認為，如果你看一下批發銀行的貸款成長情況，你會發現，我們確實看到了非常健康的管道。我認為，如果你看看我們的批發銀行，它不僅具有良好的全球多元化，而且在歐洲也具有非常好的多元化，在我們活躍的歐洲大多數市場中，其貸款地位通常排名前五，佔比超過 20%，那麼我們可以從歐洲希望在基礎設施、國防和技術領域的投資推動中受益匪淺。還有德國的計劃，這些計劃總是需要一段時間才能實現。因此管道是健康的。

The question will be the conversion. So -- and of course, there is uncertainty. We've seen that industry and consumer confidence parameters are relatively low. So we need to see what the conversion levels are, but we are confident that when they come, that we are then a bank that will be able to benefit from it and it's just a matter of time when the uncertainty will lift. So that's where we currently are, and that will then result in a higher or lower conversion.

問題在於轉換。所以——當然存在不確定性。我們發現產業和消費者信心參數相對較低。因此，我們需要了解轉換水平，但我們相信，當轉換水平到來時，我們將從中受益，而不確定性的消除只是時間問題。這就是我們目前的狀況，這將導致更高或更低的轉換率。

On Van Lanschot, I mean, like we also said during Capital Markets Day, we want to diversify further. But also want to diversify our capital more towards the retail segment, which has more sustainably higher return levels. And that's why we have a capital program in Wholesale Banking, whereby we increasingly use all kinds of techniques and insurances and secondary sell-downs to reuse the capital more often in Wholesale Banking and to we grow faster in Retail Banking.

關於 Van Lanschot，我的意思是，就像我們在資本市場日期間所說的那樣，我們希望進一步實現多元化。但也希望將我們的資本更加多元化，轉向零售領域，該領域具有更永續的更高回報水準。這就是為什麼我們在批發銀行業務中有一個資本計劃，透過該計劃，我們越來越多地使用各種技術、保險和二次拋售，以便在批發銀行業務中更頻繁地重複使用資本，並在零售銀行業務中更快地發展。

And as part of this, with Van Lanschot, which is also a retail player, we have also moved part of our capital, again, into the Retail Banking space, which is exactly what we want to increase the weight of capital from wholesale to retail. And this as to it.

作為其中的一部分，我們與同樣是零售銀行的 Van Lanschot 合作，將部分資本再次轉移到零售銀行領域，這正是我們希望將資本重心從批發轉向零售的願望。這就是它。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Delphine Lee, JPMorgan

摩根大通 Delphine Lee

Yeah, thank you for taking my questions. So my first one is going back to liability margins. So just wanted to understand a little bit with the actions I mean, so with the actions you've taken on deposit rates that leads to total EUR1 billion. I mean what is your target for the full year still EUR1.3 billion? Or do you think I mean, how much more can you really get? Just to understand the moving parts within NII given the low rates.

是的，感謝您回答我的問題。所以我的第一個想法是回到負債保證金。所以只是想稍微了解一下我所說的行動，即您在存款利率方面採取的行動，總額達到 10 億歐元。我的意思是，您全年的目標還是 13 億歐元嗎？還是你認為我的意思是，你到底還能得到多少？只是為了了解在低利率的情況下 NII 內部的變動情況。

And then my second question is just on sort of cost of risk asset quality. I've seen you've increased your Stage 1, Stage 2 provisions. If you don't mind just reminding us a little bit your assumptions macro-wise, under IFRS 9 accounting.

我的第二個問題是關於風險資產品質成本的。我看到你們增加了第一階段、第二階段的規定。如果您不介意的話，請稍微提醒我們您在 IFRS 9 會計下的宏觀假設。

All right. I'll give the question on liability, the EUR1.3 billion to Tanate, and on Stage 1, Stage 2 to Ljiljana.

好的。我將就責任問題向 Tanate 提出 13 億歐元問題，並就第一階段和第二階段問題向 Ljiljana 提出問題。

Let me start. Thank you very much for the question. You've seen the asset quality in the first quarter has improved when it comes to all of the indicators. And what we are typically proud of is that the Stage 3 ratio has decreased and specifically, provisions for Stage 3 have decreased, specifically on the individual side.

讓我開始吧。非常感謝您的提問。大家看到，第一季資產品質從各項指標來看都是有所改善的。我們通常感到自豪的是，第三階段的比例已經下降，具體來說，第三階段的撥款已經減少，特別是在個人方面。

You are right, Stage 2, combined also with Stage 1, amounts to EUR98 million this quarter and it's the impact of several parts. First is, correct, the macroeconomic forecast. And when we do the macroeconomic forecast, we use the external unbiased scenarios and we update our models regularly in order to make sure that they are objective and that they are following the latest, I would say, outlooks. That's one.

您說得對，第 2 階段加上第 1 階段，本季總額達到 9,800 萬歐元，這是幾個部分的影響。第一，糾正宏觀經濟預測。當我們進行宏觀經濟預測時，我們會使用外部無偏見的情景，並定期更新我們的模型，以確保它們是客觀的，並遵循最新的展望。那是一個。

Secondly, you've seen in the first quarter differently than previously that there has not been significant over lease decrease. That means that the risk cost as shown is in Stage 1 and Stage 2 are the real risk costs coming from the, as I say, macroeconomics, risk migration, and some model also changes. However, normalized, we do see the situation still below through the cycle.

其次，與之前不同，您會發現第一季的租賃量並沒有明顯的下降。這意味著，第 1 階段和第 2 階段所示的風險成本是來自宏觀經濟、風險遷移和某些模型變化的實際風險成本。然而，在正常化之後，我們確實看到情況仍然低於週期水平。

Just on liability margin, again, I think you go back to Page 23 that shows the replication impact. I think a couple of points to add there. One is that the savings rate cuts that we have taken year-to-date May 2, results in EUR1 billion. But we didn't explain further that, in fact, the term deposit rate cuts also has a positive impact on top of that EUR1 billion. So that's the first point to make.

僅就負債保證金而言，我認為您應該回到第 23 頁，其中顯示了複製的影響。我想有幾點要補充。一是，我們自 5 月 2 日起實施的儲蓄率下調措施已導致儲蓄減少 10 億歐元。但我們並沒有進一步解釋，事實上，定期存款利率下調除了10億歐元之外，還產生了正面影響。這是要提出的第一點。

The second is that, as you know, in a number of markets, we are not the best price in terms of deposit costs. And yet by our rate actions, our deposit volume continues to be stable or increasing. So that give us confidence, and that's because of the granular levels of our retail deposits which averaged around EUR15,000 per person.

第二，如你所知，在許多市場中，我們的存款成本並不是最優價格。然而，根據我們的利率行動，我們的存款量持續保持穩定或增加。這給了我們信心，這是因為我們的零售存款水平精細，平均每人約為 15,000 歐元。

And then the last point is that our blended cost of Eurozone deposits for savings and term deposits is 143 basis points at the end of Q1. So we do have room for further rate action if required. And every 10 basis point reduction means EUR400 million annualized impact.

最後一點是，第一季末，歐元區儲蓄和定期存款的混合成本為 143 個基點。因此，如果需要，我們確實有採取進一步利率行動的空間。每降低 10 個基點，年化影響將達到 4 億歐元。

Great.

偉大的。

Matthew Clark of Media Banker.

Media Banker 的 Matthew Clark。

Hi, some questions on the replicating portfolio, please. So firstly, just to understand, you said that the shift from 50% to 55% invested over one year happened over the last six months. Can you be a bit more -- was it genuinely a gradual implementation, because I wasn't aware in prior commentary that you said that it was moving.

您好，請問一下關於複製投資組合的一些問題。首先，為了理解這一點，您說投資金額在一年內從 50% 變為 55% 是在過去六個月內發生的。您能否再多說一點——這真的是一個逐步實施的過程嗎，因為我之前的評論中沒有註意到您說過它正在推進。

And then what duration or what maturity instruments have you been buying at in order to make that shift? And what's the overall updated duration of the replicating portfolio overall now? I think it used to be 2.4% you guided, but presumably, that's moved up as a result of this shift. So some commentary there, please.

那麼，為了實現這一轉變，您購買了多長期限或到期期限的工具？那麼現在複製投資組合的整體更新持續時間是多少？我認為您之前指導的數字是 2.4%，但據推測，由於這次轉變，這個數字已經上升了。請發表一些評論。

All right. I give the questions to Tanate.

好的。我把問題交給了 Tanate。

Yeah. The shift to 55% is happening gradually over time. And that's shifting with the forward curve coming down, right? So the replication stretches over time. So it's been gradual not happening in 1 fell swoop over 6 months, okay?

是的。隨著時間的推移，這一比例正逐漸轉向 55% 。隨著遠期曲線下降，這種情況也在改變，對嗎？因此複製會隨著時間的推移而延長。所以這是一個漸進的過程，不是在六個月內一下子發生的，好嗎？

In terms of the majority instrument that we use, it's a combination of using swaps to extend the duration, and of course, using our investment portfolio as a hedge. And then the average duration is around 2.4 years still, roughly, mid time.

就我們使用的大多數工具而言，它是使用掉期來延長期限，當然，也使用我們的投資組合作為對沖的組合。那麼平均持續時間約為 2.4 年，大致處於中間時間。

Sorry, can you just elaborate how you kind have moved -- shifted the out of the liquidity into the duration part by 5-percentage-points but it doesn't impact the average duration. I mean it implies you've been buying at or around the kind of 2 year maturity level. Is that the right way to think about it?

抱歉，您能否詳細說明您是如何移動的——將流動性轉移到持續時間部分 5 個百分點，但這不會影響平均持續時間。我的意思是，這意味著你一直在以 2 年或 2 年左右的期限購買。這是正確的思考方式嗎？

Yeah, I suppose in a way. We do what we would call barbell hedging. So we have a significant part of our replication in the 3-month bucket and then over one year it's anywhere from over 1 year to 10, 15 years, right, so it's a barbell strategy. But I think if you want to follow us and by the way, we do the calculations for you on Page 23, anyway, but the average duration on the part which is more than one year is around four years. Something like that.

是的，我想從某種程度上來說。我們所做的就是所謂的槓鈴對沖。因此，我們的複製很大一部分是在 3 個月的時間段內進行的，而在一年內，複製範圍從 1 年多到 10 年、15 年不等，所以這是一個槓鈴策略。但我想，如果你想關注我們，順便說一下，無論如何，我們都會在第 23 頁為你進行計算，但超過一年的部分的平均持續時間約為四年。類似這樣的。

So if you look at the curve around four years, you should get a sense of how accretive that is. But we -- as always, we reaffirm and we will keep updating Page 23 every quarter.

因此，如果你觀察一下四年左右的曲線，你就會明白它的增值程度。但我們——一如既往，我們重申，並且我們將繼續每季更新第 23 頁。

Oka. You weren't selling 354 days by [ 357 ] instruments...

好的。您沒有透過 [ 357 ] 種工具出售 354 天...

No, no, we're not doing that.

不，不，我們不會這麼做。

Okay, Thank you.

好的，謝謝。

Kiri, HSBC.

基里，匯豐銀行。

Yeah, good morning, everyone, A couple of questions, if I may. On fees and the 24% growth in the insurance part of the feed, could we just have a bit more color which geographies, which partnerships, which specific products are driving that growth? And then secondly, actually, still on fees, the Retail brokerage activity, the data looks pretty strong through April with all the market volatility. And I guess we've seen that movie before. But does it feel like there's some sustainability there?

是的，大家早安，如果可以的話，我有幾個問題。關於費用和保險部分 24% 的成長，我們能否更詳細地說明哪些地區、哪些合作關係、哪些特定產品推動了這項成長？其次，實際上，仍然就費用、零售經紀活動而言，儘管市場波動較大，但四月份的數據看起來相當強勁。我想我們以前看過這部電影。但感覺那裡有永續性嗎？

Or should we think of the kind of recent April as more of a blip in terms of retail brokerage and maybe some weakening as we go into the summer on that side, I think. So two questions on fees, please.

或者，我們是否應該認為，最近四月份的零售經紀業務表現只是曇花一現，而隨著夏季的到來，零售經紀業務可能會出現一些疲軟跡象，我想。請問兩個關於費用的問題。

All right. First of all, I think that on fees, what we want to do is to continuously increase the alpha, that also means that in the past couple of years we have put in substantial efforts to not only have daily banking, but also to grow our investment product business and our insurance business. And I'm sure we're going to add a few more in the next couple of years and whether will tell you something about that.

好的。首先，我認為在費用方面，我們想要做的是不斷提高阿爾法值，這也意味著在過去幾年中，我們付出了巨大的努力，不僅在日常銀行業務上，而且還在發展我們的投資產品業務和保險業務。我相信我們在未來幾年還會增加一些，我們會告訴您一些相關資訊。

But one of them was insurance because that is good annuity income for our existing customer base. And so we have, in all the retail markets, contracts with providers, there's different providers that we work with. There are different structures we work with, depending on the market. And also we introduced insurance also for Business Banking in different markets, which in the past we did not have.

但其中之一就是保險，因為這對我們現有的客戶群來說是一筆不錯的年金收入。因此，我們在所有零售市場都與供應商簽訂了合同，與不同的供應商合作。根據市場情況，我們採用不同的工作結構。我們還為不同市場的商業銀行業務引入了保險，這是我們過去沒有的。

So it started out small a few years ago. And once or twice I've made remarks about that we have relatively small insurance distribution fees. But now you see it's becoming quite sizable, and we expect this to continue.

所以幾年前它就開始小規模運作了。我曾一兩次說過，我們的保險分銷費用相對較低。但現在你看到它變得相當可觀，我們預計這種情況會持續下去。

When we talk about retail brokerage, the first quarter we had -- and more higher asset under management and we had more and we had a higher number of people who are trading with us that is now currently 4.6% in capital markets sorry, EUR4.6 million. I said in the Capital Markets Day last year, it was about EUR4.2 million. So okay, now it moved up to about 11%, 12%. It's good, but that still means that approximately 88% of our customer base is not trading through ING if they are trading. So there's a lot of upside there.

當我們談論零售經紀業務時，第一季我們管理的資產更多，與我們交易的人數也更多，目前在資本市場上佔 4.6%，抱歉，是 460 萬歐元。我在去年的資本市場日上說過，大約是420萬歐元。好吧，現在它上升到了大約 11%、12%。這很好，但這仍然意味著我們大約 88% 的客戶群不會透過 ING 進行交易。因此，這其中存在著很大的優勢。

And we continue to refine our products, improve and centralize our investment engine, improve our reporting. So move to additional segments also not only brokers but also simple advice and personal adviser. There are new brackets setting. So we are confident in being able to further grow that and that will support the fee guidance that we have given, but we remain very confident on that.

我們將繼續改進我們的產品，改進和集中我們的投資引擎，完善我們的報告。因此，不僅要轉向經紀人，還要轉向簡單的建議和個人顧問。有新的括號設定。因此，我們有信心進一步發展這項業務，這將支持我們給予的費用指導，但我們對此仍然非常有信心。

Johan Ekblom, UBS.

瑞銀的 Johan Ekblom。

Thank you, Can I just follow up on two things that we haven't spoken about, one is at the Capital Market Day, we spoke about the use of significant risk transfer trades. Can you just give us an update on where you are, if there is anything any impact in Q1 or where you are in terms of time lines there? And then, I guess, secondly, also just an update on the Business Banking rollout in Germany, where we are there would be helpful.

謝謝，我能否跟進我們尚未談到的兩件事，一是在資本市場日，我們談到了使用重大風險轉移交易。您能否向我們介紹一下您的最新情況，第一季是否會受到任何影響，或者您的時間軸情況如何？其次，我想，只要更新一下我們在德國的商業銀行業務的推廣情況，就會很有幫助。

On Business Banking question, I give that question to Tanate. Now on Business Banking, roll out has gone well. We focus on the digital part of Business Banking. So that means self-employed, SME. We also with that, we have a proposition with also a payment proposition that we then that will go with it.

關於商業銀行問題，我將這個問題交給 Tanate。目前，商業銀行業務的開展進展順利。我們專注於商業銀行的數位化部分。這意味著個體經營、中小企業。我們也有這個提議，還有付款提議，我們會隨之實施。

And that will and therefore, we greatly grow step by step, but still in the bigger scheme of things, it remains small, but we're confident that we're going to be able to also realize the position in that market. Because there's a a lot of untapped potential, especially on the digital side, where there's no other player really in Germany that rolls it out in a way that we are currently rolling it out.

因此，我們將逐步實現大幅成長，但從更大的角度來看，我們的規模仍然很小，但我們相信我們也能夠在該市場中佔有一席之地。因為還有很多尚未開發的潛力，特別是在數位方面，目前在德國還沒有其他公司能夠像我們這樣發揮出來。

We're still planning on doing an SRT trade this year. We're in the process of preparing for that. And we expect that trades to happen in the second half of the year. In terms of size, I think we expect, subject to regulatory approval and market condition, somewhere around a 10 basis point relief on core Tier 1 in the second half of the year.

我們仍計劃今年進行 SRT 交易。我們正在為此做準備。我們預計交易將在今年下半年發生。就規模而言，我認為，我們預計，在監管部門批准和市場條件允許的情況下，今年下半年核心一級資本充足率將降低約 10 個基點。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Anke Reingen, RBC.

安克·雷因根（Anke Reingen），RBC。

Yeah, thank you very much. Just two follow-up questions. The first is on your the increase in your temporary increase in your target capital ratio of 12.8% to 13%, the sort of like cautious dance that's underpinning this increase. What other business decision has it sort of like impacted? Are you looking more cautious on your lending investment spend or how, where else does it sort of like impact your operations or you're thinking?

是的，非常感謝。僅剩兩個後續問題。首先是您將目標資本比率暫時從 12.8% 提高到 13%，這種謹慎的舉動是此次提高的基礎。它對其他什麼商業決策有影響？您是否對貸款投資支出更加謹慎，或者它還會在哪些方面影響您的營運？或者您認為呢？

And then just in terms of April and the tariffs, given you are obviously very strong in the corporate banking world, just curious about what you're seeing from customers. So maybe a bit more cautious at the beginning of IPO, but are you seeing more demand for loans or cash balances in the last few days?

然後就四月份的關稅而言，鑑於你們在企業銀行業務方面顯然非常強大，我只是好奇你們從客戶那裡看到了什麼。因此，在 IPO 開始時可能會更加謹慎，但您是否看到過去幾天對貸款或現金餘額的需求增加？

All right. I'll take the question on customers, and I will give the question on where we are, where are we cautious and how do we look at, let's say, the circumstances on Ljiljana.

好的。我將回答有關客戶的問題，並提出我們目前處於什麼位置、我們在哪裡謹慎以及我們如何看待 Ljiljana 的情況的問題。

So if you look at our customers, look, I mean there's two tails, if you will, maybe even a few more. But on the one hand, we have retail. And there which is 65% of our lending book, and there you see that a significant part of that retail lending book is mortgages. And if you then look at mortgages, we are active in markets which have low unemployment rates, and that's Belgium, Germany, Poland, Spain.

因此，如果你看看我們的客戶，你看，我的意思是有兩個尾巴，如果你願意的話，甚至可能更多。但一方面，我們有零售。這占我們貸款總額的 65%，而且你可以看到，零售貸款總額的很大一部分是抵押貸款。如果你看一下房貸，你會發現我們在失業率較低的市場很活躍，像是比利時、德國、波蘭和西班牙。

And so in all of those markets, you see good growth on the back of low unemployment, on the back of the market restoring after, let's say, the start of the Ukraine war and the high interest rates that it brought with it, which are then coming down on the back of house shortages. And as you see also the pick on one of the slides where we show a number of these developments that are supporting that. That's one on the retail side.

因此，在所有這些市場中，你都會看到良好的成長，這是由於低失業率、市場在烏克蘭戰爭爆發及其帶來的高利率之後復甦，而高利率隨後又由於房屋短缺而下降。正如您所看到的，我們在一張投影片上展示了一些支持這一點的發展。這是零售方面的。

Secondly, on the retail side, you see customer confidence relatively low, but we don't actually see that back in our payment volumes. We are one of the biggest payment providers in Europe and these are the number of payments that are being done or the volume of those payments remains strong. So we can't see it in indicators there. So there is not so much to see on the retail side of things.

其次，在零售方面，你會發現客戶信心相對較低，但我們實際上並沒有在支付量中看到這種情況。我們是歐洲最大的支付提供者之一，這些支付的數量或支付額仍然保持強勁。所以我們無法在指標中看到它。因此，零售方面的情況並不多。

What we do see in Wholesale Banking is that you saw the lending demand and the lending growth in Wholesale Banking was relatively subdued with a small decrease. Yes, there, companies are a bit uncertain depending on the sector and the import tariffs that are being levied. You maybe see that in -- there was a lot of quick demand in the first quarter in the expectation that these tariffs would come, that demand then goes a bit down at the end of the first quarter and into the second quarter.

我們在批發銀行業務中看到的是，貸款需求和批發銀行業務的貸款成長相對低迷，略有下降。是的，企業對產業和徵收的進口關稅有點不確定。您可能會看到，由於預期這些關稅將要到來，第一季出現了大量的快速需求，但在第一季末和第二季度，這種需求有所下降。

And then you see that in terms of production companies or transportation companies, there is a bit more conservatism in terms of investments. That's what we currently see. We don't see a big inflow currently in our restructuring departments that not you see with caution and further growth in investments being made on the wholesale side. Ljiljana?

然後你會發現，就生產公司或運輸公司而言，投資方面更加保守一些。這就是我們目前所看到的。目前，我們的重組部門沒有出現大量資金流入，但我們謹慎地看待批發的投資，並進一步增加投資。莉莉亞娜？

Thank you for the question, Anke. I think Steven already gave some flavor to how we think. Maybe to add, we know the tariffs are not good for everyone, and there are clearly no winners in that game. And they have several of the consequences.

謝謝你的提問，Anke。我認為史蒂文已經對我們的思維方式給了一些見解。也許還要補充一點，我們知道關稅並不是對所有人都有利，而且這場遊戲中顯然沒有贏家。並且它們會產生多種後果。

And the one we've seen in April, which was the spike in market volatility, and during that spikes, I think ING has weathered really strongly through it and with no extra demand for cash or non honored margin calls or collateral calls. So everything was business as usual. And through our strict monitoring, we're going to ensure that in case of eventual future spikes, we do the same.

我們在四月看到的情況是市場波動性急劇上升，在這種急劇上升期間，我認為 ING 已經非常強勁地度過了難關，並且沒有出現對現金的額外需求或未履行的保證金追繳或抵押追繳。所以一切照常。透過嚴格的監控，我們將確保在未來出現高峰時，我們也能採取同樣的措施。

The other consequence that the towers have brought are definitely economic uncertainty. And here, our plans need a bit more time and we need a bit more time as to understand how is it exactly going to impact the economy and their business models.

這些大樓帶來的另一個後果肯定是經濟的不確定性。在這裡，我們的計劃需要更多時間，我們需要更多時間來了解它究竟會如何影響經濟及其商業模式。

And while we have dissected our Wholesale Banking portfolio depending on geographies, industry sectors, we have concluded that the direct impact of the tariffs would be limited based on the fact that we are well diversified into the economies that are less affected by the tariffs, but as well that we are well diversified in industry sectors that are under less pressure.

雖然我們根據地理和行業部門對我們的企業銀行業務組合進行了剖析，但我們得出的結論是，關稅的直接影響將是有限的，因為我們已將業務分散到受關稅影響較小的經濟體，而且我們在壓力較小的行業部門也已將業務分散到位。

And that is all confirmed also by strong financial flexibility of our clients. As you know, approximately 84% of our Wholesale Banking client base is investment grade, and 2/3 of our exposure are fully or partially collateralized. Also, the portion of the plants in our portfolio that have strong exports to the US is limited.

我們客戶強大的財務彈性也證實了這一點。如您所知，我們大約 84% 的企業銀行客戶群屬於投資等級，而我們 2/3 的風險敞口都已全部或部分抵押。此外，我們投資組合中對美國出口強勁的工廠比例有限。

All of that gives us, I would say, current confidence that the direct impact from it will be very limited. However, we have to look into when and how the conflicts are going to be resolved in order to understand longer-term impacts on our clients.

我想說，所有這些都讓我們現在有信心，它的直接影響將非常有限。然而，我們必須研究何時以及如何解決這些衝突，以便了解對客戶的長期影響。

Okay, thank you very much.

好的，非常感謝。

Namita Samtani, Barclays.

巴克萊銀行的 Namita Samtani。

And thanks for taking my questions. My first question, is there a correlation between the mobile customers only growing 174,000 this quarter and the amount of deposit cuts you've done? I'm just curious, given the 1 million target of mobile customers you have this year and whether you would sacrifice on the mobile customers target in order to cut deposit rates and defend net interest income? And secondly, I just wanted to make sure the 25 bps deposit cut in Germany, which takes place on the 7th of May, is that included in the EUR1 billion deposit cost guidance or not?

感謝您回答我的問題。我的第一個問題是，本季行動客戶僅成長 174,000 人和你們削減存款的金額之間是否存在關聯？我只是好奇，鑑於今年你們的行動客戶目標是 100 萬，為了降低存款利率和保住淨利息收入，你們是否願意犧牲行動客戶目標？其次，我想確認一下，5 月 7 日德國將實施 25 個基點的存款利率下調，這是否包含在 10 億歐元的存款成本指引中？

All right. I'll take the question on customers. And Tanate, the 25% basis points cut in Germany. Is there a correlation? No, there is no correlation.

好的。我將回答有關顧客的問題。德國則將利率下調了 25% 基點。有相關性嗎？不，沒有關聯。

If you look at the first quarter, typically it's slow. So if you look at the first quarter in many of the previous years, that's also the case. And people come out of, let's say, the festive season, and then generally, there are less products being sold in terms of new customers. So the last year was about 180,000. Now it's about 174,000.

如果你看一下第一季度，通常會發現它發展緩慢。所以如果你看看前幾年的第一季度，情況也是如此。假設人們剛度過節慶季，那麼總體而言，新客戶銷售的產品就會減少。去年大約是 18 萬。現在大約是174,000。

So that's a statistical difference is small. So we're still well on our way to reach the 1 million for this year.

因此統計差異很小。因此，我們仍在朝著今年 100 萬的目標邁進。

And just to confirm, the second rate cut in Germany of 25 basis points is included in the EUR1 billion.

需要確認的是，德國第二次降息 25 個基點包含在這 10 億歐元中。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Farqu Murray, Autonomous.

法庫·默里，自治。

Morning, all Just two quick follow-ups. Just on the Dutch mortgage market, 1Q was notably strong. I just wondered whether you saw any moderation there in the second quarter so far? And also, can you just give an outline on how mortgage pricing on new business compared to the back book?

早上好，只需快速跟進兩個問題。僅就荷蘭抵押貸款市場而言，第一季表現尤為強勁。我只是想知道到目前為止，您是否看到第二季度出現了任何緩和跡象？另外，您能否簡單介紹一下新業務的房貸定價與往年相比如何？

And then secondly, one slightly technical question on the new commercial NII disclosure, which is a really positive improvement and thanks for that. It includes a reallocation shift of EUR160 million, I think, for the full year '24. I just wondered if you could give a 1Q '25 impact and perhaps how that compare Q-on-Q.

其次，關於新的商業 NII 揭露，我有一個稍微技術性的問題，這是一個非常積極的改進，謝謝。我認為，其中包括 24 年全年 1.6 億歐元的重新分配。我只是想知道您是否可以給出 25 年第一季的影響以及與上一季相比的情況。

All right. I give the reallocation question to Tanate. On the Dutch mortgage market I see you have two sub-questions. The one is do you see good momentum continuing also in the second quarter? The answer is yes.

好的。我將重新分配的問題交給了 Tanate。關於荷蘭抵押貸款市場，我發現您有兩個子問題。第一個問題是，您是否認為第二季也能繼續保持良好的勢頭？答案是肯定的。

We do see continued good momentum also after the first quarter.

我們確實看到第一季之後繼續保持良好的勢頭。

And the margin versus the back book, I think that the margins are a little bit higher on the client side. The only pressure that you get is, let's say, not from the back book, but the fact that people are extending their mortgages. So therefore, we partially refinanced the back book, and that gives a bit of pressure, but the margins for the new production is not higher.

相對於帳面利潤，我認為客戶端的利潤要高一些。您所感受到的唯一壓力不是來自帳簿，而是人們延長抵押貸款期限的事實。因此，我們對舊帳進行了部分再融資，這帶來了一些壓力，但新產品的利潤率並沒有更高。

Farquhar, just in terms of commercial NII, I'm glad you like the new way we present our commercial NII. You're right that the reclass is around EUR160 million because of our cash pooling reclassification. I think EUR160 million is a good basis for which -- if you're doing your spreadsheet for 2025, that's a good number to use.

法誇爾，就商業 NII 而言，我很高興您喜歡我們呈現商業 NII 的新方式。您說得對，由於我們的現金池重新分類，重新分類的金額約為 1.6 億歐元。我認為 1.6 億歐元是一個很好的基礎——如果你正在製作 2025 年的電子表格，那麼這是一個很好的數字。

Matthew Clark, Mediobanca.

馬修·克拉克（Matthew Clark），Mediobanca。

Just very simplistic please, given commercial NII was up first quarter versus the fourth quarter, given you're guiding liability margins flattish for the next quarter. Can we draw the conclusion that commercial NII has now troughed and should be drifting up from here? That was it.

請非常簡單地說，鑑於商業 NII 第一季較第四季度有所上升，並且您預計下一季的負債利潤率將持平。我們是否可以得出這樣的結論：商業 NII 現已觸底並且應該從現在開始回升？就是這樣。

Tanate?

塔納特？

I think, again, I would only describe the moving parts, right? It depends on what the forward curve will do, it depends on our volume growth, lending margin -- sorry, lending volume, liability volume and depends on any further rate action that we do, right? So those are still the moving parts. But I think looking at what we see now, we do see stability. We see a stabilization of our commercial NII and liability.

我想，我再說一遍，我只會描述活動部件，對嗎？這取決於遠期曲線的走勢，取決於我們的交易量增長、貸款保證金——抱歉，是貸款量、負債量，還取決於我們採取的任何進一步的利率行動，對嗎？所以這些仍然是活動部件。但我認為，從我們現在看到的情況來看，我們確實看到了穩定性。我們看到商業 NII 和負債趨於穩定。

And then we should grow from there.

然後我們就從那裡開始成長。

There are no further questions in queue. I will now hand it back to Steven van Rijswijk for closing remarks.

隊列中沒有其他問題。現在我將把發言時間交還給 Steven van Rijswijk，請他作最後發言。

Yeah. Thanks very much, Laura. And again, we had a strong quarter -- the first quarter with good commercial momentum. We are confident about our outlook for '25 and '27 with our targets, and we continue to go at it. And with that, I thank you very much for your time, for your questions.

是的。非常感謝，勞拉。我們又一次取得了強勁的季度業績——第一季的商業勢頭良好。我們對 2025 年和 2027 年的前景充滿信心，並將繼續為此努力。最後，非常感謝您抽出時間提出問題。

I wish you a very good Friday. I'm looking forward to speaking to you again soon. Thank you.

祝您星期五愉快。我期待很快再次與您交談。謝謝。

Thank you. This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

謝謝。今天的電話會議到此結束。感謝您的參與。您現在可以斷開連線。