滙豐控股 (HSBC) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

The analyst and Investor webinar for HSBC Holdings plc's 2024 annual results will begin in five minutes. (Operator Instructions)

匯豐控股有限公司 2024 年年度業績分析師和投資者網路研討會將於五分鐘後開始。（操作員指示）

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Investor and Analyst Webinar for HSBC Holdings plc's 2024 annual results. For your information, this call is being recorded. At this time, I will hand the call over to Georges Elhedery, Group CEO.

女士們，先生們，歡迎參加匯豐控股有限公司 2024 年年度業績投資者和分析師網路研討會。供您參考，本次通話正在錄音。現在，我將把電話交給集團執行長 Georges Elhedery。

Welcome all to today's call. I'm joined by Pam, our new Group CFO. We're delighted to be here in Hong Kong, the city where HSBC was founded 160 years ago. Our history and heritage stand us in good stead in so many ways, adapting to new economic realities and technologies is what we have always done. It brings out the best in our people and culture, especially when acting as a trusted adviser to our customers as they navigate the world's economic uncertainties and look towards new opportunities.

歡迎大家參加今天的電話會議。與我們一起出席的還有我們新任集團財務長 Pam。我們很高興來到香港，匯豐銀行160年前成立的城市。我們的歷史和傳統在許多方面對我們有益，適應新的經濟現實和技術是我們一直在做的事情。它充分發揮了我們員工和文化的優點，特別是當我們作為客戶值得信賴的顧問，幫助他們應對世界經濟不確定性並尋找新的機會時。

Before Pam takes you through the fourth quarter numbers, I will cover four items. First, I'll go through our full year 2024 results. Second, I will set out the changes implemented over the past few months to create a simple, more agile, focused bank, addressing the ways we operate in a fundamental way. Third, I'll describe in some detail the solid foundations we are building on. And finally, I will share with you what we plan to do next in order to deliver sustainable strategic growth and meet our return targets.

在帕姆向您介紹第四季度的數據之前，我將介紹四項內容。首先，我將介紹我們 2024 年全年業績。其次，我將闡述過去幾個月實施的變革，以創建一個更簡單、更靈活、更專注的銀行，從根本上解決我們的營運方式。第三，我將詳細描述我們正在建立的堅實基礎。最後，我將與大家分享我們下一步的計劃，以實現可持續的策略成長並實現我們的回報目標。

So starting with the full year numbers. 2024 performance was strong. We delivered record profit before tax of $32.3 billion or $34.1 billion, excluding notable items. We generated a 14.6% return on tangible equity or 16% excluding notable items, in line with our mid-teens target. And we announced a total of $26.9 billion of distributions to our shareholders in respect of 2024, including $0.87 per share of dividends and $11 billion of share buybacks.

因此，從全年數據開始，2024 年的表現強勁。我們實現了創紀錄的稅前利潤 323 億美元，扣除重大項目後利潤為 341 億美元。我們的有形資產報酬率為 14.6%，剔除重大專案後的報酬率為 16%，與我們的中等程度目標一致。我們宣布 2024 年向股東分配總額 269 億美元，其中包括每股 0.87 美元的股利和 110 億美元的股票回購。

While I took the role in September, my priority was to inject energy and intent in the way we deliver our strategy while maintaining continued focused cost discipline. At our third quarter results, I committed to provide you with more detail on the expected benefits from our organization and simplification. We have simplified HSBC in two important ways. We've elevated and empowered our two home markets of Hong Kong and the UK and our wealth proposition, and we have combined our two wholesale businesses.

雖然我是在九月上任的，但我的首要任務是在執行我們的策略時注入活力和意圖，同時繼續保持專注的成本紀律。在我們的第三季業績中，我承諾向您提供有關我們的組織和簡化預期收益的更多詳細資訊。我們透過兩種重要方式簡化了匯豐銀行。我們提升並增強了香港和英國這兩個本土市場以及我們的財富主張，並且合併了我們的兩家批發業務。

In doing so, we have eliminated large parts of our complex matrix governance structure. This significantly improved operating model is now led by a tighter group operating committee. It has clarity of accountability, few management lines and layers, reducing the need for the number of committees we previously ran across the bank. This has increased our agility.

透過這樣做，我們消除了複雜的矩陣治理結構的大部分。這項顯著改進的營運模式目前由更緊密的集團營運委員會領導。它職責明確，管理線路和層級較少，減少了我們先前在銀行設立的委員會數量的需要。這提高了我們的敏捷性。

As an illustration, previously, every dollar of revenue we generated had at least two accountable executives at the group executive committee. Today, around 60% of our revenue has a single accountable executive at the Group Operating Committee. This will empower our people to make faster decisions, collaborate better and innovate for the benefits for our customers.

舉例來說，以前，我們創造的每一美元收入都有至少由兩名集團執行委員會負責的高階主管。如今，我們約 60% 的收入由集團營運委員會的一位負責高階主管負責。這將使我們的員工能夠更快地做出決策、更好地協作並進行創新，從而為我們的客戶帶來利益。

In short, we've simplified our structure, and we've aligned it to our strategy. This will enable us to deliver around $1.5 billion of annualized savings by the end of full year 2026. Primarily through deduplication of loads. This represents circa 8% reduction of our global staffing costs. This will cost around $1.8 billion in severance and other upfront costs. Those $1.5 billion savings will have no meaningful impact on revenue, and they will be taken straight to the bottom line.

簡而言之，我們簡化了我們的結構，並使其與我們的策略保持一致。這將使我們能夠在 2026 年全年年底前實現約 15 億美元的年度節省。主要透過負載重複資料刪除。這意味著我們的全球員工成本減少了約 8%。這將耗費約 18 億美元的遣散費和其他前期成本。這 15 億美元的節省不會對收入產生任何重大影響，而且將直接計入利潤。

Separately, we will redeploy circa $1.5 billion of costs from nonstrategic or low returning activities as incremental investments to our priority growth areas, where we have clear competitive advantages and generate accretive returns. We have started to do this by announcing that we will begin to wind down our M&A and ECM activities in the UK, Europe and the US.

另外，我們將把非策略性或低迴報活動中的約 15 億美元成本作為增量投資重新部署到我們的優先成長領域，在這些領域我們具有明顯的競爭優勢並能產生增值回報。我們已開始宣布將逐步減少在英國、歐洲和美國的併購和股權資本管理活動。

I will cover our priority growth area shortly. These actions give us the confidence to target a mid-teens return on tangible equity in 2025, 2026, and 2027. Each of our four businesses are firmly rooted in our core strength. In our two home markets of Hong Kong and the UK, we have two strong businesses. In both businesses, we serve Personal Banking customers as well as Commercial Banking and small and medium enterprises. We are a leading bank and are growing market share in key products. Importantly, in both, we are profitable and delivering very good returns.

我將很快介紹我們的優先成長領域。這些行動使我們有信心在 2025 年、2026 年和 2027 年實現有形股權回報率達到 15% 左右。我們的四大業務均牢牢紮根於我們的核心優勢。在我們兩個本土的市場香港和英國，我們有兩家實力雄厚的企業。在這兩項業務中，我們不僅為個人銀行客戶提供服務，也為商業銀行客戶和中小企業提供服務。我們是一家領先的銀行，主要產品的市場份額正在不斷增長。重要的是，在這兩方面，我們都實現了盈利，並獲得了非常好的回報。

As for the large corporations with Global Banking needs in both home markets, alongside individuals with multi-country personal financial needs, they will be served by our two international businesses as I'm about to set up. Corporate & Institutional Banking, CIB, is a global wholesale bank with significant competitive advantages, has a powerful deposit franchise with strong financing capabilities and it also has a market-leading transaction bank, leveraging our global network.

至於在兩個本土市場都有全球銀行業務需求的大型企業，以及有多國個人金融需求的個人，他們都可以由我即將設立的兩家國際業務部門來提供服務。CIB 企業與機構銀行業務是一家具有顯著競爭優勢的全球批發銀行，擁有強大的存款業務和融資能力，並且還擁有市場領先的交易銀行，依託我們的全球網絡。

As the world's number one trade bank for the last seven consecutive years, we are exceptionally well placed to help our customers and capture global and intra-regional trade flows as supply chains reconfigure new trade routes emerged, economies grow, and our customer expectations evolve.

作為連續七年位居世界第一的貿易銀行，隨著供應鏈重新配置、新貿易路線出現、經濟成長以及客戶期望的演變，我們完全有能力幫助客戶並捕捉全球和區域內貿易流動。

CIB is also well positioned to help entrepreneurs secure the capital they need to build the businesses of the future, help our customers decarbonize. International Wealth and Premier Banking, IWPB, is ideally placed to capture the increasing number of affluent and high net worth customers, especially those with international banking needs, we seek new investment opportunities to help them protect and grow their wealth.

CIB 還可以幫助企業家獲得創建未來企業所需的資金，幫助我們的客戶實現脫碳。國際財富和卓越銀行業務（IWPB）具有理想的定位，可以吸引越來越多的富裕和高淨值客戶，特別是那些有國際銀行業務需求的客戶，我們尋求新的投資機會來幫助他們保護和增加財富。

Our recognized brand, financial strength, complementary footprints across Asia and the Middle East, reinforce our position in the world's fastest-growing wealth markets. Let me now highlight our distinctive strength.

我們公認的品牌、財務實力以及在亞洲和中東地區的互補業務足跡鞏固了我們在全球成長最快的財富市場中的地位。現在讓我強調一下我們的獨特優勢。

Starting with our high-quality revenue streams. Our franchise generates resilient recurring revenue from three key sources. As you can see, 2024, two-third of revenue was from banking NII. This is a result of the strong deposit and lending positions in each of our four core businesses. As you know, we have built up the structural hedge to protect this revenue stream from falling interest rates. Pam will speak more about this.

從我們的高品質收入來源開始。我們的特許經營權從三個主要來源產生穩定的經常性收入。如您所見，到 2024 年，三分之二的收入來自銀行 NII。這是因為我們四大核心業務都有強大的存款和貸款地位。如您所知，我們已經建立了結構性對沖，以保護這一收入流免受利率下降的影響。帕姆將會就此進行更多討論。

The remaining third was from fee and other income. Around half of this was from our market-leading Wholesale Transaction Banking business, which is built on our global network covering 85% of global trade and capital flows, including high-growth markets, such as India, ASEAN, of course, Mainland China, the Middle East, Mexico. Around a third was from Wealth, which I will talk about shortly. Taken together, this means that more than 90% of our revenue comes from three high-quality streams.

剩餘的三分之一來自費用和其他收入。其中約一半來自我們市場領先的批發交易銀行業務，該業務建立在我們的全球網絡之上，覆蓋全球 85% 的貿易和資本流動，包括印度、東盟、當然還有中國大陸、中東、墨西哥等高成長市場。大約三分之一來自財富，我稍後會談到這一點。綜合起來，這意味著我們 90% 以上的收入來自三個高品質的管道。

Moving to our strong deposit franchise. Our customers trust the strength of our balance sheet and have chosen us to look after their deposits. This gives us a highly liquid and profitable balance sheet, which provides greater flexibility through the cycle. Within our $1.7 trillion deposit base, we have large deposit surpluses in each of our four businesses, giving us the funding capacity to support our clients.

轉向我們強大的存款特許經營權。我們的客戶信任我們資產負債表的實力並選擇我們來管理他們的存款。這為我們提供了高度流動性和盈利性的資產負債表，從而在整個週期中提供了更大的靈活性。在我們 1.7 兆美元的存款基礎中，我們的四大業務部門都擁有大量存款盈餘，這使我們擁有支援客戶的融資能力。

Turning now to our high-quality loan portfolio. We've always maintained a conservative approach to risk management, as evidenced by the quality of our loan portfolio. In the period since 2018, we have experienced a global pandemic and energy crisis and the real estate cycle in the US, in Hong Kong, and in Mainland China. Our average annual ECL charge over that period was 32 basis points of average customer, which is well within our medium-term planning range of 30 to 40 basis points.

現在來談談我們的高品質貸款組合。我們始終堅持保守的風險管理方法，我們的貸款組合品質證明了這一點。自2018年以來，我們經歷了全球疫情、能源危機以及美國、香港、中國大陸的房地產週期。我們在此期間的平均年度 ECL 費用為平均客戶的 32 個基點，完全在我們的中期計劃範圍 30 至 40 個基點之內。

On our disciplined capital management. Over the last two years, our capital generation has enabled us to return $47.7 billion to our shareholders. This comprises of $27.7 billion of dividends and $20 million of share buybacks, including those announced today. Through the rolling series of share buybacks, we have undertaken since the start of 2023, we have now repurchased 11% of our year-end 2022 issued check.

關於我們嚴謹的資本管理。在過去兩年中，我們的資本創造使我們能夠向股東返還 477 億美元。其中包括 277 億美元的股息和 2,000 萬美元的股票回購，包括今天宣布的股票回購。透過自 2023 年初以來進行的一系列滾動股票回購，我們現已回購了 2022 年底發行的支票的 11%。

We're targeting a mid-teens return on tangible equity in each of the next three years. The external environment presents us with opportunities but also challenges. The interest rate outlook is benign but it remains volatile. We can adapt to changing patterns of trade and economic growth. But there is a risk of disruption. And we have a major opportunity in wealth in Asia and the Middle East, but it is a highly competitive space.

我們的目標是在未來三年內每年實現十五六倍的有形資產報酬率。外在環境帶給我們機遇，也帶來挑戰。利率前景良好，但仍不穩定。我們可以適應不斷變化的貿易和經濟成長模式。但有中斷的風險。我們在亞洲和中東擁有巨大的財富機遇，但這是一個競爭激烈的領域。

Despite these challenges, we have levers we can pull on to support us deliver on our target. We're confident we can take decisive action to do so. These levers are: first, driving operating leverage as an ongoing process through cost efficiency and optimization as well as continuous improvements in productivity. Second, dynamic balance sheet management and capital allocation, which I'll cover shortly. And third, investing for strategic long-term growth.

儘管面臨這些挑戰，我們仍可以利用這些手段來幫助我們實現目標。我們有信心採取果斷行動來實現這一目標。這些槓桿是：首先，透過成本效率和最佳化以及生產力的持續提高，推動經營槓桿作為一個持續的過程。第二，動態資產負債表管理和資本配置，我稍後會講到。第三，投資於長期策略成長。

Let me turn to this next. We are creating the capacity to invest for growth in the business and to drive efficiencies. We're focusing on growing investment part as shown on this in the next slide. First, in our home markets, we intend to expand the number of wealth centers and enhance our wealth capabilities in Hong Kong, which is set to become the world's leading cross-border wealth center. We attracted around 800,000 new-to-bank Personal Banking customers in Hong Kong last year, and we are well positioned to capture growth opportunities as international customers choose Hong Kong as the cross-border wealth hub.

接下來讓我談談這一點。我們正在創造投資能力，以促進業務成長並提高效率。我們專注於增加投資部分，如下一張投影片所示。首先，在本土市場，我們計劃擴大香港的財富中心數量，增強香港的財富管理能力，使香港成為全球領先的跨國財富中心。去年，我們在香港吸引了約80萬名新個人銀行客戶，隨著國際客戶選擇香港作為跨境財富中心，我們已準備好抓住成長機會。

In the UK we plan to also grow the Wealth business, and we plan to improve our SME coverage and proposition. This is an extremely attractive and profitable segment where we will intensify our focus. Second, in CIB, we intend to leverage our network and further enhance our Transaction Banking capabilities including in high-growth markets such as Mainland China, ASEAN, India, Middle East, Mexico. We are also looking to scale up our broad loan origination capabilities by underwriting more and distributing more to our Institutional and Wealth clients.

在英國，我們也計劃擴大財富業務，並計劃提高我們的中小企業覆蓋範圍和主張。這是一個極具吸引力且利潤豐厚的領域，我們將加強對它的關注。其次，在 CIB，我們打算利用我們的網絡，進一步增強我們的交易銀行能力，包括在中國大陸、東協、印度、中東、墨西哥等高成長市場。我們還希望透過承銷更多貸款並向我們的機構和財富客戶分配更多貸款來擴大我們廣泛的貸款發放能力。

This ability to leverage our loan origination for the purpose of distribution will give us larger opportunities to generate fee income, improve capital efficiencies and in turn, improve CIB returns.

這種利用貸款發放進行分配的能力將為我們提供更大的機會來產生費用收入，提高資本效率，進而提高 CIB 回報。

Third, in IWPB, we intend to accelerate the wealth buildup in our home markets and particularly also in key growth markets such as Singapore, the UAE, India, and Mainland China. In each of these, we aim to accelerate the hiring of relationship managers, establish new wealth centers and expand our product offering. While we are benefiting from an underlying growth in this segment, particularly in Asia and the Middle East, we also aim to grow our market share by first, better driving wealth penetration within our own wholesale or premier customer.

第三，在 IWPB 中，我們打算加速本土市場的財富積累，特別是新加坡、阿聯酋、印度和中國大陸等主要成長市場的財富累積。在每個方面，我們都致力於加快聘用客戶關係經理、建立新的財富中心並擴大我們的產品範圍。雖然我們受益於該領域（特別是在亞洲和中東）的潛在成長，但我們也旨在透過首先更好地推動我們自己的批發或主要客戶的財富滲透來擴大我們的市場份額。

Second, better capturing cross-border flows of our own customers in their outbound location. And third, increasing the proportion of mandates within our invested assets. Finally, underpinning all of this and across the group, we aim to seize the opportunity of AI and generative AI. Our flagship initiatives will focus on improving customer service through both our mobile apps and our contact centers. We also intend to increase tech productivity with tools such as coding assistance, and improve process efficiency in areas such as onboarding, KYC, credit applications, and many others.

第二，更能捕捉我們自己客戶在出境地的跨境流動情況。第三，增加投資資產中授權投資的比例。最後，在所有這些的基礎上，我們整個集團的目標是抓住人工智慧和產生人工智慧的機會。我們的旗艦計畫將專注於透過我們的行動應用程式和聯絡中心改善客戶服務。我們也打算利用編碼輔助等工具來提高技術生產力，並提高入職、KYC、信貸申請等領域的流程效率。

Mid-teens returns will give us a range of attractive options for capital deployment and will drive EPS and DPS growth over time. As the illustration on the right-hand side of the slide demonstrates, a mid-teens return on tangible equity will enable us to deliver the 50% dividend payout ratio in 2025 and still have sufficient capital to grow the balance sheet, buy back shares or both. Supporting our customers will always be our first priority, and we expect our loan book to grow in the mid-single digits over the medium to long term.

中等水準的回報率將為我們提供一系列有吸引力的資本配置選擇，並將隨著時間的推移推動每股收益和每股股息的成長。正如幻燈片右側的插圖所示，中等水平的有形權益回報率將使我們能夠在 2025 年實現 50% 的股息支付率，並且仍有足夠的資本來擴大資產負債表、回購股票或兩者兼而有之。支持我們的客戶永遠是我們的首要任務，我們預計我們的貸款規模將在中長期內實現中等個位數成長。

However, fluctuations in customer demand for credit mean our loan book may grow at an uneven pace. Share buybacks remain our preferred method of returning excess capital to our shareholders because they drive growth in EPS and DPS. For instance, in 2024, while our earnings grew by circa 2%, our earnings per share grew by circa 9%, reflecting the benefit from the circa 6% reduction of share count through share buybacks in this year.

然而，客戶信貸需求的波動意味著我們的貸款規模可能會以不均衡的速度成長。股票回購仍然是我們向股東返還過剩資本的首選方法，因為它可以推動每股盈餘和每股股利的成長。例如，2024 年，我們的收益成長了約 2%，而每股盈餘成長了約 9%，這反映了今年透過股票回購減少約 6% 的股票數量帶來的好處。

So in summary, we've simplified the group and along with our continued focus on costs, are committed to delivering circa $1.5 billion savings to the bottom line. We're focused on delivering for our customers by capturing growth opportunities where we have a clear competitive advantage and accretive returns. And we are eliminating over the medium term an additional circa $1.5 billion of costs from nonstrategic or low refining activities and redeploying them into these priority growth areas. We are targeting a mid-teens return on tangible equity in each of 2025, 2026 and 2027.

總而言之，我們簡化了集團，並繼續專注於成本，致力於節省約 15 億美元的利潤。我們專注於為客戶提供服務，抓住具有明顯競爭優勢和增值回報的成長機會。從中期來看，我們將從非戰略性或低煉油活動中額外削減約 15 億美元的成本，並將其重新部署到這些優先成長領域。我們的目標是在 2025 年、2026 年和 2027 年分別實現有形資產回報率達到 15% 左右。

And with that, let me hand over to Pam.

現在，讓我把麥克風交給帕姆。

Thanks, George. Thank you, everyone, for joining. I would like to begin by sharing my approach as group CFO. In short, I am fully focused on discipline, performance, and delivery. Discipline means prioritizing with precision, maintaining strong cost control and ensuring investment rigor for growth.

謝謝，喬治。謝謝大家的參與。首先我想分享一下我作為集團財務長的做法。簡而言之，我完全專注於紀律、表現和交付。紀律意味著精確地確定優先順序，保持強大的成本控制，並確保投資嚴謹性以實現成長。

Performance means gearing our financial strategy towards achieving our mid-teens returns target. Delivery means ensuring we remain agile and resilient enhanced operating leverage and are always well positioned to support our customers.

業績意味著調整我們的財務策略以實現中等程度的回報目標。交付意味著確保我們保持敏捷和彈性，增強營運槓桿，並始終處於有利地位來支持我們的客戶。

Let me now turn to the Q4 numbers. Starting with the highlights. Profit before tax was $2.3 billion or $7.3 billion, excluding notable items. This strong performance enabled us to announce a further $8.4 billion of distributions in respect of the fourth quarter. This consists of a fourth interim dividend of $0.36 per share and a share buyback of up to $2 billion, which we intend to complete before our first quarter results in April.

現在讓我來談談第四季的數據。從亮點開始。稅前利潤為 23 億美元，扣除重大項目後為 73 億美元。這一強勁表現使我們能夠宣布第四季再分配 84 億美元。其中包括每股 0.36 美元的第四次中期股息和高達 20 億美元的股票回購，我們計劃在 4 月份第一季業績公佈之前完成。

On this slide, you can see the impact of notable items on year-on-year revenue and profit growth. This was principally the $5.2 billion related to historical foreign exchange translation losses from the Argentina disposal. Excluding these, Profit before tax was up 10% on the fourth quarter of last year. Excluding notable items, revenue of $16.5 billion was up $1.2 billion on the fourth quarter of last year, driven by banking NII and a strong performance in Wealth.

在這張投影片上，您可以看到值得注意的項目對年收入和利潤成長的影響。這主要是與阿根廷資產處置相關的 52 億美元歷史外匯折算損失。除此之外，稅前利潤比去年第四季成長了10％。不計重要項目，營收為 165 億美元，比去年第四季成長 12 億美元，這得益於銀行 NII 和財富管理業務的強勁表現。

On banking NII, excluding the impact of Argentina and other notable items, the banking NII run rate remained broadly stable. Deposit growth and benefits from the structural hedge were partially offset by lower interest rates.

銀行業NII方面，剔除阿根廷等值得關注專案的影響，銀行業NII運作率基本維持穩定。存款成長和結構性避險帶來的好處被較低的利率部分抵銷。

Looking ahead, we expect banking NII of around $42 billion in 2025. To be clear, this is a change to the way we have given you guidance before, around $42 billion is not an underpin. It is our expectation at the present time, based on the current market rates outlook and our own projections. We also want to give you some additional detail on the structural hedge.

展望未來，我們預計 2025 年銀行業 NII 將達到 420 億美元左右。需要明確的是，這是我們先前提供指導方式的改變，約 420 億美元並不是支撐。這是我們目前的預期，基於當前的市場利率前景和我們自己的預測。我們也想向您提供有關結構性對沖的一些更多細節。

As you know, we have been building up the structural hedge to help manage our interest rate sensitivity. During '24, we increased the notional balance by around $50 billion. We also extended the duration from 2.8 years to 3.1 years. This contributed to a further reduction in the interest rate sensitivity of our banking NII last year. We have reduced our sensitivity to a 100 basis point rate shock from around $7 billion in June '22 to around $2.9 billion at the end of '24.

如您所知，我們一直在建立結構性對沖來幫助管理我們的利率敏感度。在24年期間，我們的名目餘額增加了約500億美元。我們也將期限從 2.8 年延長至 3.1 年。這導致我們去年銀行NII的利率敏感度進一步降低。我們已將 100 個基點利率衝擊的敏感度從 2022 年 6 月的約 70 億美元降低至 2024 年底的約 29 億美元。

We are also providing additional disclosures on the expected reinvestment profile of the structural hedge. We expect to reinvest around $95 billion of assets in each of '25 and '26 from a current average yield of around 2.8%. We also expect to reinvest around $90 billion of assets in '27 from a current average yield of around 3.4%.

我們也對結構性避險的預期再投資狀況提供了額外揭露。我們預計在 2025 年和 2026 年每年將再投資約 950 億美元的資產，目前的平均收益率約為 2.8%。我們也預計在 27 年將資產再投資約 900 億美元，目前的平均收益率約為 3.4%。

Moving to Fee and Other income. Wholesale Transaction Banking was stable on last year's fourth quarter. Excluding the impact of strategic transactions, primarily the sale of Canada, it was up by 3%, as we continue to leverage our global network and capitalize on our position as the world's number one trade bank. The standout performance was again in Wealth, which was up 27% on the same quarter last year. This was our fourth consecutive quarter of double-digit year-on-year growth.

轉至費用和其他收入。批發交易銀行業務與去年第四季相比保持穩定。排除策略交易（主要是加拿大的出售）的影響，這一數字增長了 3%，因為我們繼續利用我們的全球網絡並利用我們作為世界第一貿易銀行的地位。財富領域再次表現突出，比去年同期成長了 27%。這是我們連續第四個季度實現兩位數年成長。

I'm pleased we added 234,000 new-to-bank, Personal Banking customers in Hong Kong in the quarter. This brings the total number added in '24 to 799,000 as Hong Kong continues to grow in importance as a cross-border wealth hub. I'm also pleased with the strong momentum in the business in January, which is in line with previous years. All of this gives us confidence that we can continue to grow this business further.

我很高興本季我們在香港新增了 234,000 名個人銀行客戶。隨著香港作為跨境財富中心的重要性不斷提升，2024 年新增移民總數達到 799,000 人。我也很高興看到一月份業務的強勁勢頭，這與往年一致。所有這些都讓我們有信心能夠繼續進一步發展這項業務。

Our medium-term target is to continue to grow fee and other income by double-digit CAGR. There are three trends that underpin this ambition. First, the multiyear growth in new-to-bank customers in Hong Kong underlines that the city is on track to becoming the number one cross-border wealth hub before the end of this decade. Our past experience suggests that new customers grow their total balances and wealth products over time. So this is expected to provide a tailwind.

我們的中期目標是繼續以兩位數的複合年增長率成長費用和其他收入。有三個趨勢支撐著這個目標。首先，香港銀行新客戶數量的多年增長表明，香港預計在本十年結束前成為第一大跨境財富中心。我們過去的經驗表明，新客戶的總餘額和財富產品會隨著時間的推移而增加。因此，預計這將帶來順風。

Second, the strength of our business in key international wealth hubs, particularly Hong Kong, has enabled us to grow invested assets in Asia at 17% CAGR. This was also the key driver of our 13% CAGR growth in invested assets at the group level. There have also been strong multiyear inflows of net new invested assets with Asia accounting for the majority.

其次，我們在主要國際財富中心（尤其是香港）的業務實力使我們能夠以 17% 的複合年增長率增加亞洲的投資資產。這也是我們集團投資資產複合年增長率達到13%的關鍵驅動力。多年來，淨新投資資產流入強勁，其中亞洲佔大多數。

Finally, our CSM balance is a third bigger than it was two years ago, despite the reclassification of our French Life Insurance business in the fourth quarter. This reflects continued year-on-year growth in new business, CSM, from higher volumes, particularly in Hong Kong. As you know, the CSM balance is a store of future earnings, which relates into the P&L at between 9% and 10% in the last two years. All things being equal, this means that future earnings growth has been built in. Also last year, the value of new business CSM was substantially greater than the CSM released to the P&L.

最後，儘管我們在第四季度對法國人壽保險業務進行了重新分類，但我們的合約服務經理餘額仍比兩年前增加了三分之一。這反映出新業務（CSM）因業務量增加而持續同比增長，尤其是在香港。如您所知，CSM 餘額是未來收益的儲備，在過去兩年中與損益表的比率在 9% 到 10% 之間。在其他條件相同的情況下，這意味著未來的獲利成長已經實現。此外，去年新業務 CSM 的價值大大高於釋放到損益表中的 CSM。

On credit. Our fourth quarter ECL charge was $1.4 billion, $1 billion of this was in wholesale, including around $300 million from two clients, one in the UK and one in Mainland China commercial real estate sector. Overall, our portfolios in our home markets remained strong. This brought our '24 charge to 36 basis points of average loans, which is within our medium-term planning range of 30 to 40 basis points. We expect our '25 charge to be within our medium-term planning range.

賒帳。我們第四季的預期信用損失為 14 億美元，其中 10 億美元用於批發，包括來自兩個客戶的約 3 億美元，一個在英國，一個在中國大陸的商業房地產領域。整體而言，我們在本土市場的投資組合依然強勁。這使得我們的 24 年費用達到平均貸款的 36 個基點，這符合我們 30 至 40 個基點的中期計劃範圍。我們預計 25 年的費用將在我們的中期規劃範圍內。

On costs. We are committed to deliver $1.5 billion of simplification savings from our reorganization to the bottom line, of which around $0.3 billion will be recognized in our '25 P&L. We expect to incur around $1.8 billion of severance and other upfront costs by the end of '26. The bulk of these costs will be incurred this year.

關於成本。我們承諾透過重組實現 15 億美元的簡化節省，其中約 3 億美元將計入我們的 25 年損益表。我們預計到 26 年底將產生約 18 億美元的遣散費和其他前期成本。這些成本的大部分將在今年產生。

Separately, we are also aiming to reallocate a further around $1.5 billion of costs from nonstrategic activities to priority growth areas. You all have seen that we have announced that we will begin to wind down our ECM and M&A activities in the UK, Europe, and the US, while refocusing on Asia. Those businesses were not materially profitable and exiting them will make around $300 million of costs available for reinvestment in our priority growth areas.

另外，我們也計劃將約 15 億美元的成本從非策略活動重新分配到優先成長領域。大家已經看到，我們已經宣布將開始逐步減少在英國、歐洲和美國的 ECM 和 M&A 活動，同時將重點放在亞洲。這些業務並未帶來實質的獲利，而退出這些業務將節省約 3 億美元的成本，用於再投資於我們的優先成長領域。

The slide also shows some businesses that we have recently agreed to dispose of German Private Banking and French Life Insurance to which I'll add the sale of our Retail Banking operations in Bahrain, which was announced today. These were not aligned with our four businesses where we will focus our investment dollars and our time.

幻燈片還顯示了我們最近同意出售的一些業務，包括德國私人銀行和法國人壽保險，此外我還將添加今天宣布的出售巴林零售銀行業務。這些與我們集中投資資金和時間的四大業務不一致。

Through these actions, we are creating investment space in our priority areas within our strict cost discipline. As George said, these include wealth in Asia and the Middle East, UK SME coverage, and Wholesale Transaction Banking. Entry to the extra investment list is a high hurdle requiring strategic alignment and financial returns. As we continue to work through exits of low return and nonstrategic activities, we are confident the investment dollars they provide will deliver a higher return to the bank.

透過這些行動，我們在嚴格的成本控制範圍內為優先領域創造了投資空間。正如喬治所說，這些包括亞洲和中東的財富、英國中小企業覆蓋以及批發交易銀行業務。進入額外投資名單的門檻很高，需要策略協調和財務回報。隨著我們繼續努力退出低迴報和非策略性活動，我們相信他們提供的投資資金將為銀行帶來更高的回報。

The actions taken last year mean that '24 costs were in line with our guidance of around 5% growth on a target basis. We remain fully committed to cost discipline. We expect '25 cost to grow by around 3% compared with '24 on a target basis, which excludes notable items and the direct cost of Canada and Argentina disposals. Our guidance of around 3% growth includes up to 4% underlying growth from inflation and investment, partly offset by around $0.3 billion of efficiency cost savings that we expect to realize this year.

去年採取的行動意味著‘24’成本符合我們目標基礎上約 5% 的成長指引。我們將繼續全力致力於成本控制。我們預計，25 年成本將比 24 年增長約 3%，其中不包括值得注意的項目以及加拿大和阿根廷處置的直接成本。我們預計的成長約為 3%，其中包括通貨膨脹和投資帶來的潛在成長高達 4%，但預計今年將實現約 3 億美元的效率成本節約，從而部分抵消了這一增長。

On Loans and Deposits. Loan balances were stable. Deposits were up 3% in the fourth quarter. This included an increase in Hong Kong, supported by customer growth as well as seasonality.

關於貸款和存款。貸款餘額穩定。第四季存款成長了3%。其中香港地區的成長得益於顧客成長和季節性因素。

As we have said before, I would caution you against annualizing that number. Our CET1 ratio was 14.9%, above our target range of 14% to 14.5%. We expect the buyback of up to $2 billion announced today to have an impact of around 0.2 percentage points in the first quarter. We have reclassified our $7 billion legacy French Home Loan portfolio as hold to collect and sell in the first quarter. This will lead to recognition of an estimated $1 billion pretax loss in other comprehensive income, equivalent to around 0.1 percentage points of CET1.

正如我們之前所說，我提醒你不要將該數字按年計算。我們的 CET1 比率為 14.9%，高於 14% 至 14.5% 的目標範圍。我們預計，今天宣布的高達 20 億美元的回購將對第一季產生約 0.2 個百分點的影響。我們已將價值 70 億美元的法國住房貸款遺留組合重新歸類為持有以在第一季度收回並出售。這將導致其他綜合收入中確認約 10 億美元的稅前損失，相當於 CET1 的 0.1 個百分點左右。

In summary, we have set out our current expectations in respect of '25 and the medium term. But our key target is mid-teens return on tangible equity in each of the next three years. We will run the bank to deliver this.

綜上所述，我們闡述了目前對25年及中期的預期。但我們的主要目標是在未來三年內每年實現中等程度的有形資產報酬率。我們將經營銀行來實現這一目標。

Neil, can we go to Q&A, please?

尼爾，我們可以進入問答環節嗎？

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Gurpreet Sahi from Goldman Sachs. If I can have two, please. The first is on CIB. Thank you for the 14% trailing RoTE. So with the cost saves, et cetera, where do we expect the CIB RoTE to trend over the next couple of years? And how would the management think about incremental capital allocation in that business vision? I know that interest rates are having an impact. So implied question is, let's say, interest rates were a lot lower and payments, cash management, et cetera, earn us less.

高盛的 Gurpreet Sahi。如果可以的話請給我兩個。第一個是關於 CIB 的。感謝您提供的 14% 的後續 RoTE。那麼，考慮到成本節省等因素，我們預計未來幾年 CIB RoTE 的趨勢如何？管理階層如何看待該商業願景中的增量資本配置？我知道利率正在產生影響。所以隱含的問題是，假設利率低很多，付款、現金管理等帶給我們的收入就少了。

And then the second one is on the International Wealth and Premier Bank. Thanks again for the 16% RoTE. So how should we think about incremental technology or new app or kind of gaining market share in the cross-border area as it relates to international wealth given that the RoTE is not so high. So how would we -- for example, Zing and those kind of apps where we were looking at competing with the fintech, how competitive would we want to be? Thank you so much.

第二個是關於國際財富與卓越銀行。再次感謝 16% 的 RoTE。那麼，考慮到 RoTE 不是那麼高，我們應該如何看待增量技術或新應用程式或在跨國領域獲得市場份額與國際財富的關係呢？那麼，例如，Zing 和那些我們希望與金融科技競爭的應用程序，我們希望具有多大的競爭力？太感謝了。

Thank you very much, Gurpreet. I'll handle the two questions. On CIB, we haven't given specific returns, medium-term returns for CIB as Pam said, given the bank-wide target of 60 -- of mid-teens return on tangible equity for '25, '26, '27. We haven't given the business specific.

非常感謝，Gurpreet。我會處理這兩個問題。對於 CIB，正如 Pam 所說，我們還沒有給出具體的回報，CIB 的中期回報，因為全行的目標為 2025、2026、2027 年有形權益回報率達到 60-15% 左右。我們還沒有給出具體的業務資訊。

But let me give you some indications of how we're looking at the business. First, this business will benefit from the largest of the reorganization-related cost saves because this business is the result of the merger of two wholesale businesses and as per any merger, you would expect a lot of cost synergies in areas where we had duplicative activities, be it mostly back-office activities that are duplicative where we will achieve the savings.

但請容許我向您介紹我們如何看待這項業務。首先，這項業務將受益於重組相關的最大成本節約，因為這項業務是兩家批發企業合併的結果，並且與任何合併一樣，您會期望在我們有重複活動的領域產生大量的成本協同效應，主要是重複的後台活動，我們將在這些活動中實現節約。

This business also will benefit from additional -- we called it out, so the investment space -- from additional capital allocation efficiencies, we will be looking for more originate and distribute model. We will be looking to churn the balance sheet more, sweat the balance sheet more, drive higher earnings and fee income from this balance sheet and create better efficiency in the capital. And therefore, we have a number of activities that will support this business' return on tangible equity performance.

這項業務也將受益於額外的——我們稱之為投資空間——從額外的資本配置效率，我們將尋求更多的發起和分配模式。我們將尋求進一步優化資產負債表，進一步增加對資產負債表的投入，從資產負債表中獲得更高的收益和費用收入，並提高資本效率。因此，我們開展了一系列活動來支持該業務的有形股權回報率。

I remember also this business is a leading business in Wholesale Transaction Banking. We're the largest trade bank in the world for seven consecutive years, we're top two bank in payments and top two bank in foreign exchange. We're the largest bank in security services across Asia and the Middle East. So we're benefiting from an amazing transaction banking capability. We're also benefiting from an amazing deposit franchise. I've seen these businesses in the 56% loan-to-deposit ratio and that is a highly stable and highly profitable proposition.

我還記得這項業務是批發交易銀行業務中的一項領先業務。我們連續七年成為全球最大的貿易銀行，在支付領域和外匯領域分別排名前二和前二的銀行。我們是亞洲和中東地區最大的安全服務銀行。因此，我們受益於令人驚嘆的交易銀行業務能力。我們也受益於令人驚嘆的存款特許經營權。我看過這些企業的貸存比高達 56%，這是一個非常穩定且利潤豐厚的業務。

So a lot of investment in this business is to support this direction of (inaudible). I didn't mention the activities such as debt capital markets, et cetera, which also remain core in the wider capital solutions we provide to our customers.

因此，這項業務的大量投資是為了支持這個方向（聽不清楚）。我沒有提到債務資本市場等活動，這些活動也是我們為客戶提供的更廣泛的資本解決方案的核心。

On your second question about IWPB, when you have to look at this business as one of the largest growth engines of this fit. I mean starting with Hong Kong. Hong Kong is on track to become the largest, the world's largest cross-border wealth hub, ahead of Switzerland. By the end of this decade, we're talking a few years, 800,000 new-to-bank customers, and we see this trend continuing.

關於您關於 IWPB 的第二個問題，您必須將這項業務視為該領域最大的成長引擎之一。我的意思是從香港開始。香港可望超越瑞士，成為全球最大的跨國財富中心。預計到本世紀末，也就是幾年內，銀行將新增 80 萬客戶，我們認為這一趨勢將會持續下去。

Then you look at various other parts of our network. I mean, Singapore is a major financial hub. The UAE has become a major wealth hub. We are the leading international wealth provider in Mainland China and in India. So we continue to invest in these areas.

然後你再看看我們網路的其他各個部分。我的意思是，新加坡是一個重要的金融中心。阿聯酋已成為一個主要的財富中心。我們是中國大陸和印度領先的國際財富提供者。因此我們繼續在這些領域進行投資。

And that investment will come in all forms like more relationship managers, more wealth centers, more products on the shelf, more technology capabilities. And therefore, you have to expect that a lot of investment will go to this business, but this business is exhibiting already double-digit growth.

而這種投資將以各種形式出現，例如更多的關係經理、更多的財富中心、更多的貨架產品、更多的技術能力。因此，你必須預料到大量投資將流向這項業務，但這項業務已經呈現兩位數的成長。

I mean this business, the wealth in particular, has grown more than 20% year on year. And if you look at Asia alone, our Wealth business in '24 has grown more than 30% year on year, and therefore, it deserves a lot of investment. Even if that means we will eat a little bit on our return growth because we want to really secure our future as a leading provider. And our brand in parts of the world, such as Asia and the Middle East is, frankly, second to none and our capability to attract this.

我的意思是這個生意，特別是財富，比去年同期成長了20％以上。如果只看亞洲，我們24年的財富業務年增超過30％，因此值得大量投資。即使這意味著我們的回報成長會受到一點影響，因為我們希望真正確保我們作為領先供應商的未來。坦白說，我們的品牌在亞洲和中東等地區是首屈一指的，而且我們吸引這些客戶的能力也是首屈一指的。

Cross-border is a very important area for us. And frankly, we have to punch it our weight, we're punching below our weight in cross-border. Our customers are with us in a given location, and then we lose them as their wealth or part of their wealth moves to another location. But just setting the right referral mechanisms, the product capabilities cross-border, the internal incentives, there is so much we can capture. It's our own customers. So the reach is fairly easy. It's a self-help mechanism that we're trying to just recover.

跨境對我們來說是一個非常重要的領域。坦白說，我們必須發揮自己的實力，但在跨國方面，我們的實力還不夠。我們的客戶在某個特定地點與我們合作，然後隨著他們的財富或部分財富轉移到另一個地方，我們失去了他們。但只要設定正確的推薦機制、跨國的產品能力和內部激勵措施，我們就能獲得很多東西。這是我們自己的客戶。因此到達那裡相當容易。這是我們正在努力恢復的自助機制。

As for Zing. So Zing is a -- was a fantastic technology platform, which we built and we're rolling out to nonclients that we were building from scratch and built a few tens of thousands. What we did is we flipped it over its head, and we're bringing in the technology platform right in the core proposition. As we roll this technology platform within our core proposition in the UK, 15 million clients will be able to benefit from it practically straightaway. And we shouldn't be preventing that. That on contrary accelerate our acquisition of international customers.

至於 Zing。Zing 是一個非常棒的技術平台，我們建立了這個平台，並將其推廣給非客戶，我們從零開始建立了數萬個平台。我們所做的就是徹底顛覆它，並將技術平台引入核心主張。當我們在英國的核心業務中推出這項技術平台時，1500 萬客戶將能夠立即從中受益。我們不應該阻止這一點。這反而加速了我們對國際客戶的取得。

And then as we start thinking rolling these kind of new technologies, widely in our Wealth business. There's a lot of potential we can get there. And that is a much faster gain than trying to build it from scratch in an area where we have noncustomers working with a different brand than our very strong brand, which is HSBBC.

然後，我們開始考慮將這些新技術廣泛應用於我們的財富業務。我們在那裡可以發揮很大的潛力。這比在一個我們的非客戶使用與我們非常強大的品牌（匯豐銀行）不同的品牌合作的地區從頭開始建立它要快得多。

Yeah. Let's take a couple from the Zoom and then we'll come back with Kunpeng and Jeremy. Kian Abouhossein, JPMorgan. (Operator Instructions)

是的。我們從 Zoom 中選取一對，然後我們再和鯕鵬和傑里米一起回來。摩根大通的 Kian Abouhossein。（操作員指示）

Yes, hi. Thanks for taking my questions. The first one is related to the $1.5 billion reallocation of costs. I just wanted to understand a bit if you could talk around the revenues associated, the capital and the risk-weighted assets, so we get a bit of an idea of the optimization of this capital. And secondly, also, what the return on investment on this that you expect -- you mentioned a high hurdle rate?

是的，你好。感謝您回答我的問題。第一個與 15 億美元的成本重新分配有關。我只是想了解您是否可以談談相關的收入、資本和風險加權資產，以便我們對這些資本的優化有所了解。其次，您預期的投資報酬率是多少－您提到了高報酬率？

And then the second question is more general to you, George. I mean you are a CIB guy, you think about curve fall issues all the time, will over effect. So I'm quite interested about how you are planning for tariffs within the group and in particular, how you're thinking about the curve balls, not the direct impact that the indirect impacts that impacting you from CRE to wealth growth, et cetera, affects? And how are you basically putting that in your planning on your outlook and sensitivities around that. Thanks.

那麼第二個問題對你來說更為普遍，喬治。我的意思是，你是一個 CIB 人，你一直在考慮曲線下降問題，會產生過度影響。因此，我非常感興趣的是，您如何在集團內部規劃關稅，特別是您如何考慮曲線球，而不是直接影響，而是間接影響，例如從企業房地產到財富增長等等，對您產生的影響？您基本上是如何將其納入您的規劃中，考慮您的觀點和敏感性的？謝謝。

Thank you. Okay. I'll take the two questions, but if there are more details, additional granularity on CRE, I'm sure Pam can handle that, but I'll just give you a general sense. So on your first question, $1.5 billion reallocation of cost. So what we did say is we were reallocated from nonstrategic or low returning activities into activities where we have a competitive edge, where we have better returns, and where we have opportunities to grow. So you have to look at this as a returns incremental.

謝謝。好的。我會回答這兩個問題，但如果有更多細節，有關 CRE 的更多細節，我相信 Pam 可以處理，但我只會給你一個大致的了解。關於您的第一個問題，15 億美元的成本重新分配。所以我們確實說過，我們從非策略性或低迴報活動重新分配到我們具有競爭優勢、回報更高、有成長機會的活動。所以你必須將其視為回報增量。

Just as an illustration, the wind down of our M&A and ECM activities in the UK, US, and Europe, will give us $300 million of sales, as we achieve them that we can redeploy elsewhere. This cost was generating broadly breakeven profit. So we broadly marginally profitable in these activities, we do expect these to give us much higher return as they reinvested and we haven't quantified that, but that's the expectation is, there is an accretion of return.

舉例來說，我們在英國、美國和歐洲的併購和 ECM 活動的結束將為我們帶來 3 億美元的銷售額，如果我們實現這些目標，我們就可以將其重新部署到其他地方。這筆成本大致產生了損益平衡的利潤。因此，我們在這些活動中總體上獲得了邊際利潤，我們確實期望這些活動在再投資時能為我們帶來更高的回報，我們還沒有量化這一點，但這是預期，回報會增加。

Second, if you look at the areas we're looking to invest in, Wealth, Transaction Banking has big call out, there are actually none or low balance sheet consuming businesses. They're materially fee and other income driving businesses with low, if any, impact on RWA growth. And if you look at the SME business, this business is essentially liability-driven and transaction banking driven. The loans portion of this business is relatively small. The loan-to-deposit ratio is in the low teens percentage points, which means, again, it's a low RWA impact high in banking NII from deposits or transaction banking, but low RWA impact.

其次，如果你看看我們想要投資的領域，財富和交易銀行業務有很大的需求，實際上沒有或很少有資產負債表消耗業務。它們主要是費用和其他收入驅動型業務，對 RWA 成長的影響很小（如果有的話）。如果你看一下中小企業業務，你會發現這種業務本質上是由負債驅動和交易銀行所驅動的。該業務的貸款部分相對較小。貸存比處於百分之十幾以下，這意味著，它對銀行存款或交易銀行的 NII 的 RWA 影響較低，但 RWA 影響較低。

In terms of your CIB curve ball question. Look, Tariffs is not a new feature of global trade, right? There's always been many forms of tariffs on various products, along various corridors, and we've always mitigated those with our clients and supported them around the route. I think what's changed now is maybe the speed at which the landscape will be evolving, the speed at which we may see new tariffs or change in tariffs. But with a bank present on 85% of the trade corridors with our global network, with our deep knowledge in all the markets where we operate deep understanding of local rules and regulations, deep understanding of global rules and regulations, we're actually very well placed to support our customers adjust and position their businesses to navigate the status.

就您的 CIB 曲線球問題而言。你看，關稅並不是全球貿易的新特徵，對吧？各個走廊上針對各種產品一直有多種形式的關稅，我們始終與客戶協調減輕這些關稅，並在整個路線上為他們提供支援。我認為現在改變的可能是情況演變的速度，我們可能會看到新關稅或關稅變化的速度。但是，由於我們的銀行擁有全球網絡，涵蓋了 85% 的貿易走廊，並且我們對所有經營市場的深入了解，對當地規則和法規以及全球規則和法規都有深入的了解，因此我們實際上完全有能力支持我們的客戶調整和定位他們的業務以應對當前形勢。

Now I'll add to that also, remember, most of the jurisdictions we operate have pro-growth government policies. UK is a good example, progrowth government policy. The US is a very good example. In Mainland China pro growth initiatives, consumer support initiatives. You look at Hong Kong, the removal of the cooling off measures on the commercial real estate or real estate in general. These measures have been effective, and we are seeing the benefits in economy on and economic growth. So there are a number of positive factors that also we can benefit from. We've seen that in January, by the way. The start of this year has been very encouraging.

現在我還要補充一點，請記住，我們經營的大多數司法管轄區都有有利於成長的政府政策。英國就是一個很好的例子，其政府政策支持成長。美國就是一個很好的例子。在中國大陸，支持成長措施和消費者支持措施。看看香港，商業房地產或一般房地產的降溫措施已經取消。這些措施是有效的，我們看到了經濟和經濟成長的效益。因此，我們也可以從許多積極因素中受益。順便說一句，我們在一月就已經看到過這種情況。今年的開局非常令人鼓舞。

And look, the idea of all the simplification wave we've done is that so we are simple. So we are agile. And agile means we can dynamically react and support our customers. And we will adapt quickly, we will react. We will make sure that we're supporting our customers along these journeys.

看看，我們所做的所有簡化浪潮的想法都是為了讓事情變得簡單。所以我們很敏捷。敏捷意味著我們可以動態地回應並支援我們的客戶。我們將迅速適應並做出反應。我們將確保在整個旅程中為客戶提供支援。

Ben Toms, RBC.

本·湯姆斯（Ben Toms），加拿大皇家銀行。

Morning both, thank you for taking my questions. First on capital, please. In relation to your CET1 ratio guidance of 14% to 14.5%. [Before say], this used to have a caveat, you'd aim to manage this down further over time. I just note that, that hasn't been mentioned in today's update. What are your latest thoughts on your medium-term ambition for the CET1 ratio? And has there been any change in sentiment?

早安，謝謝你們回答我的問題。首先請談談首都。關於您先前提出的14%至14.5%的普通股一級資本充足率指引。 [之前]曾經有一個警告，您的目標是隨著時間的推移進一步降低這一水平。我只是注意到，今天的更新中沒有提到這一點。您對 CET1 比率的中期目標有何最新想法？情緒有什麼變化嗎？

And then secondly, on costs in relation to $1.5 billion of savings you note that they will be taken to the bottom line, or they'll be presumably -- there will be offsets in drivers such as inflation. Maybe you could just clarify directionally what you expect the shape of cost will do coming out 2025 and going into 2026 and 2027? Thank you.

其次，關於與 15 億美元節省相關的成本，您注意到這些成本將被計入底線，或者大概會被通貨膨脹等驅動因素所抵消。或許您可以明確方向，您預期 2025 年以及 2026 年和 2027 年的成本形態會如何？謝謝。

Thank you, Ben, for the two questions. I am going to ask Pam to address both your questions, Ben. But remember, our capital -- our CET1 ratio today is at 14.9%. So we're well above our medium-term operating range and expect to remain so this quarter. So the question is really a medium to long term as opposed to anything now. Pam?

謝謝本提出的兩個問題。本，我將請帕姆來回答你的兩個問題。但請記住，我們的資本——我們今天的 CET1 比率為 14.9%。因此，我們的業績遠高於中期營運範圍，預計本季仍將維持這一水準。因此，問題實際上是中長期的，而不是現在的任何問題。帕姆？

Thanks, George. And Ben, coming to your first question, we are very comfortable operating between the 14% to 14.5% range. The comment on looking at it again was removed some time ago. So no change for now in that respect. I want to just unbundle a little bit more on the cost point.

謝謝，喬治。本，回答你的第一個問題，我們在 14% 到 14.5% 的範圍內運作非常順暢。再看看的評論前陣子就被刪掉了。因此就目前而言，沒有變化。我只是想在成本方面再進一步細分一下。

So on the cost point, if you look at the guidance that we have, and this is the $1.5 billion of cost savings that are going straight to the bottom line. So the way we've looked at it is that it's about 4% if you look at inflation as well as BAU investment. The benefit of that $1.5 billion this year that we are taking straight to the bottom line is $300 million.

因此，就成本而言，如果你看一下我們的指導，你會發現這 15 億美元的成本節省直接影響了利潤。因此，我們認為，如果同時考慮通貨膨脹和 BAU 投資，這一比例約為 4%。我們今年從這 15 億美元中直接獲得的收益是 3 億美元。

So if you compare to -- on a target basis, and you're starting excluding disposals and hyperinflation, you start from 2024, it's going to be a 3% year-on-year growth. So that's what we are looking at. Now severance and other one-off costs, they will be treated as notable items. Now the timing of the $1.5 billion, yes, it's $300 million this year. There will be more to come, clearly in '26. We see the full benefit of the $1.5 billion savings, coming through for the full year 2027 and the severance costs, et cetera, will be more upfront.

因此，如果你與目標進行比較，並開始排除處置和惡性通貨膨脹，那麼從 2024 年開始，它將實現 3% 的同比增長。這就是我們所關注的。現在遣散費和其他一次性費用將被視為值得注意的項目。現在說到15億美元的時間，是的，今年是3億美元。顯然，在 26 年還會有更多事情發生。我們看到了 15 億美元節省的全部好處，這些好處將在 2027 年全年實現，遣散費等也將更加前期化。

Let's come back to the room. So I think we have Kunpeng and then Jeremy.

我們回房間吧。所以我認為我們有鯤鵬，然後是傑里米。

Thank you for taking my question. This is Kunpeng of China Securities. And congratulations to the very strong result and I also have two questions. The first question is a little bit out of the bank itself. And George, could you please share us your -- some color on the Global Trade business and also the Wealth Management business? I mean your feelings about the trends in these two business. I think as a CEO, your feeling must be quite insightful, yes?

感謝您回答我的問題。我是中信建投的鯤鵬。恭喜您取得了非常好的成績，我也有兩個問題。第一個問題有點超出銀行本身的範圍。喬治，您能否與我們分享一下您的全球貿易業務和財富管理業務的情況？我指的是你對這兩個行業的趨勢的感受。我想，身為CEO，您的感受一定非常深刻，對嗎？

The second is about the new areas -- new business areas you mentioned around -- along with your reform. I think many of them are noncapital consuming. So should to what level should we expect the revenue structure to change to going forward? Maybe the NII portion will be much higher than one-third? That's my question. Thank you.

第二個是關於新領域——您提到的新業務領域——以及改革。我認為其中許多都是非資本消耗的。那麼我們預期未來收入結構會發生怎樣的變化呢？也許 NII 部分會遠高於三分之一？這就是我的問題。謝謝。

Thank you, Kun. I'll take your first question, and I'll ask Pam to address your second question. So look, the Trade and Wealth. First, it's very difficult to predict what will happen to Global Trade in an uncertain environment. But what we can say is for the last eight years, that trade has started to become more disruptive.

謝謝你，坤。我將回答您的第一個問題，然後請帕姆回答您的第二個問題。所以看看貿易和財富。首先，在不確定的環境下，很難預測全球貿易會發生什麼。但我們可以說的是，在過去的八年裡，貿易已經開始變得更加混亂。

Global Trade has continued growing, low single-digit percentage point. The trade routes have reconfigured. ASEAN has become the largest trading partner of China, ahead of the US and Europe. We've seen more intra-regional trade pickup. We've seen more fragmentation of trade routes. So rather than goods moving from point A to point B from, say, manufacturing to consumption they're usually going through multiple legs on the journey across various other jurisdictions.

全球貿易持續成長，成長率低於個位數百分點。貿易路線已經重新配置。東協已成為中國第一大貿易夥伴，超過美國和歐洲。我們看到區域內貿易進一步回升。我們看到貿易路線越來越分散。因此，貨物並不是從 A 點運送到 B 點（例如從製造地到消費地），而是通常要經過多個階段，跨越不同的其他司法管轄區。

Now it so happens that there is still -- we still have expectations that Global Trade will grow at low single-digit percentage points. And it so happens that this reconfiguration segmentation is playing to our strength because many of these new jurisdictions that have become major participants in Global Trade, our jurisdictions where we have deep presence in some cases, leading presence as an international bank, and we are able to capture these flows. And we will be supporting our customers along these routes.

現在的情況是，我們仍然預期全球貿易將以低個位數百分點的速度成長。而這種重新配置細分恰好發揮了我們的優勢，因為許多新的司法管轄區已成為全球貿易的主要參與者，在某些情況下，我們在這些司法管轄區中擁有深厚的影響力，作為一家國際銀行處於領先地位，我們能夠捕捉到這些資金流動。我們將沿著這些路線為客戶提供支援。

In Wealth, again, if you look at various analysts and consultants' consideration, Asia and Middle East Wealth is expected to grow at high single digit into 10% CAGR for the next five years. So the underlying trend of the growth of the middle class in many of these Asian economies is there. And simply being a leading bank in this space, we benefit from this underlying trend. But what we are doing is we also want to increase our market share because in some areas, apart from Hong Kong, where we've really been leading player.

在財富方面，如果你再看看各種分析師和顧問的考慮，預計未來五年亞洲和中東的財富將以高個位數增長至 10% 的複合年增長率。因此，許多亞洲經濟體中中產階級的成長的潛在趨勢是存在的。作為該領域的領先銀行，我們從這一潛在趨勢中受益。但我們正在做的是，我們也希望增加我們的市場份額，因為除了香港之外，在某些地區，我們確實處於領先地位。

In other places, we've been punching below our weight. And the idea is to be able to step up our product capabilities, our customer reach, the various metrics, which I shared in the slide without repeating and the additional investment is not only to capture the underlying trend, but also to grow to our more natural share.

在其他地方，我們的表現一直不夠理想。我們的想法是能夠提高我們的產品能力、客戶覆蓋面和各種指標，這些我在幻燈片中已經分享過了，不再重複，而額外的投資不僅是為了抓住潛在的趨勢，也是為了增長到我們更自然的份額。

This will be focused essentially on Asia and the Middle East. We recognize there are other pockets of Wealth that will be important for us, but we're not going to be a Wealth player in the US because we don't have the right to win. Pam?

這將主要集中在亞洲和中東。我們認識到其他財富領域對我們來說也很重要，但我們不會成為美國的財富玩家，因為我們沒有獲勝的權利。帕姆？

Thank you, George. So just in terms of our focus on both NII and fee income. Clearly, as we sit today, our NII, given our strong balance sheet, deposit base, loans and advances, is a much bigger proportion of earnings compared to fee income. But given the guidance we've just shared with you that we are looking at double-digit growth in Wealth over the medium term, even though it's on a smaller base, whereas on loans and advances, we are looking at a mid-single-digit growth in the medium term. So that balance will tilt, but I won't go over my skate just as yet because the baseline starting point is so much bigger for balance sheet-driven business as opposed to fee income.

謝謝你，喬治。因此，我們只關注 NII 和費用收入。顯然，就我們今天的情況來看，鑑於我們強勁的資產負債表、存款基礎、貸款和預付款，我們的NII在收益中所佔的比例比費用收入大得多。但根據我們剛剛與您分享的指導，我們預計中期財富將實現兩位數增長，儘管基數較小，而貸款和預付款方面，我們預計中期將實現中等個位數增長。因此，這種平衡將會傾斜，但我暫時不會放棄，因為資產負債表驅動的業務的基準起點比費用收入大得多。

But in direction of travel, absolutely, and also the two things that are a bit correlated, hopefully with your customers when you do more, it's not just balance sheet related products, you do more fee income driven. And we think that really gets us more into the space of hearts and minds of our customers, which is what we are here for.

但就旅行方向而言，絕對如此，而且這兩件事也有點關聯，希望當您為客戶做更多事情時，不僅僅是與資產負債表相關的產品，您還可以做更多由費用收入驅動的事情。我們認為這確實能讓我們更融入客戶的內心世界，這也是我們存在的意義。

Jeremy.

傑里米。

My first question is related to the capital distribution. So thank you for elaborating on the capital distribution hierarchy. But I recognize that you are guiding mid-teens royalty for the next three years, but only a 50% dividend payout for 2025. So what are the implications behind it, and we can see the bank's share price is above 1 times price to book. So will that affect your future consideration between buybacks and maybe raise the dividend payout?

我的第一個問題與資本分配有關。感謝您詳細闡述資本分配層級結構。但我知道您指導的未來三年的十五分之一的特許權使用費，但 2025 年的股息支付率只有 50%。那麼這背後的含義是什麼呢，我們可以看到該銀行的股價高於市淨率的 1 倍。那麼這是否會影響您未來回購之間的考慮並可能提高股利支付？

And second question is on the loan growth. HSBC has been consistently guiding a medium -- sorry, mid-single-digit loan growth for the medium to long term, but it's still very challenging in the near term. So what circumstances you think that might be necessary for the bank to finally hit the target? And to what extent is that loan growth assumption baked into our banking NII guidance? Thank you.

第二個問題是關於貸款成長。匯豐銀行一直在引導中長期的中等——抱歉，中等個位數的貸款增長，但短期內仍然非常具有挑戰性。那麼您認為銀行最終實現目標需要哪些條件呢？貸款成長假設在多大程度上體現在我們的銀行 NII 指引中？謝謝。

Thank you very much, Jeremy. I'll ask Pam to address both questions. Let me share some kind of insight on capital distribution. So look, with a 50% -- whether mid-teens return guidance, there's plenty of space to do the 50% dividend payout ratio and support the businesses to grow, which has always been the priority use of additional capital. But as you said, loan growth hasn't been there for the last many quarters.

非常感謝，傑瑞米。我會讓帕姆回答這兩個問題。讓我分享一些關於資本分配的見解。因此，看看 50%——無論是十幾歲的回報指導，都有足夠的空間來實現 50% 的股息支付率並支持業務增長，這一直是額外資本的優先用途。但正如您所說，過去多個季度貸款都沒有成長。

And the opportunity for us was to return the excess capital through share buyback. It remains our intention to return excess capital to our shareholders through share buybacks because we see this also as a means to create an accretion in our dividend per share -- earnings per share and dividend per share by reducing the share count. Pam.

我們的機會是透過股票回購來返還過剩資本。我們仍然打算透過股票回購將多餘的資本返還給股東，因為我們認為這也是透過減少股票數量來增加每股股息（每股盈餘和每股股息）的一種手段。帕姆。

Thank you, George. So firstly, in terms of our views on the 50% earnings per share, we are very comfortable with that number. And as you can see, we look at, obviously, distribution but also opportunities for growth that we can apply our surplus capital. I'm very pleased that we are trading above tangible book value. And we absolutely don't consider the tangible book value to be a ceiling for our buybacks. Share buybacks will continue to be our preferred mode of distribution going forward.

謝謝你，喬治。因此，首先，就我們對每股 50% 收益的看法而言，我們對這個數字非常滿意。正如您所看到的，我們顯然關注的是分銷，但也關注可以運用剩餘資本的成長機會。我很高興我們的交易價值高於有形帳面價值。我們絕對不認為有形帳面價值是我們回購的上限。股票回購將持續是我們未來首選的經銷模式。

The other thing on dividends, you obviously have to look at where your CET1 is at a point of time. You have to look at regulatory changes. So for now, 50% very comfortable with.

關於股息的另一件事是，你顯然必須查看某個時間點的 CET1 在哪裡。你必須關注監管變化。所以就目前而言，50% 的人非常滿意。

Now in terms of your next question on loan growth, we need to unbundle a little bit. So yes, loan growth is flat. It was down $3 billion in Hong Kong, up $3 billion for the rest of Asia, up $1 billion for the UK, down $1 billion for the rest of the world. We are optimistic that as the interest rate trajectory stabilizes, there will be customer demand. And when there's customer demand, we'll be there to obviously support our customers.

現在關於貸款成長的下一個問題，我們需要稍微分解一下。所以是的，貸款成長持平。香港減少了 30 億美元，亞洲其他地區增加了 30 億美元，英國增加了 10 億美元，世界其他地區減少了 10 億美元。我們樂觀地認為，隨著利率軌跡的穩定，客戶需求將會增加。當客戶有需求時，我們當然會為客戶提供支援。

But what's also really important is as we're seeing that from a Hong Kong perspective, there is some momentum coming back. We expect at least the loan trajectory in Hong Kong to stabilize and not reduce. And once that happens, given the other breakdown I've given you, that gives us more optimism in terms of loan growth.

但同樣重要的是，正如我們所看到的，從香港的角度來看，出現了一些復甦的勢頭。我們預計香港的貸款軌跡至少會穩定下來，不會減少。一旦發生這種情況，考慮到我提供的其他細目，我們對貸款成長就會更加樂觀。

Andy Coombs, Citigroup.

花旗集團的安迪·庫姆斯。

If I can follow up, please. Firstly, on the capital return and secondly, on the costs. On the buybacks, if you could just clarify the $2 billion is obviously a step down from $3 billion. Should we think about that as a permanent step down given that you now need to absorb these upfront restructuring charges? Or does the $2 billion reflect a shorter timing period between the Q4 and Q1 results compared to other quarters? So that's the first question.

如果我可以跟進的話，請。首先是資本回報，其次是成本。關於回購，如果您能澄清一下，20 億美元顯然比 30 億美元有所下降。鑑於您現在需要承擔這些前期重組費用，我們是否應該將其視為永久性的降級？或者，與其他季度相比，20 億美元是否反映了第四季度和第一季結果之間的時間間隔較短？這是第一個問題。

Second question, I will have another stab at the costs. Ben asked about this. I think the walk to 2025 is very clear that if we then think about the walk to 2026, should we assume a similar level of inflation investment? So is 4% a fair assumption for future years in your view as well? And then when eyeball slide 29, which has that cost phasing, I mean it looks like there's a $600 million, $700 million step-up in the cost saves in 2026 before the full run rate is recognized in '27. So are we looking at a, 4% increase in '26 from that '25 guide less another incremental $700 million of cost saves. So sub-$34 billion cost number. Anything you can give us in terms of how to frame more explicitly that '26 and '27 cost base would be really helpful. Thank you.

第二個問題，我將再次嘗試計算成本。本詢問了這個問題。我認為，邁向 2025 年的步伐非常明確，如果我們考慮邁向 2026 年，我們是否應該假設類似的通膨投資水準？那麼，您認為 4% 對於未來幾年也是一個合理的假設嗎？然後，當我們查看第 29 張投影片時，就會發現成本分階段下降，這意味著在 2027 年確認全部運行率之前，2026 年的成本節省將增加 6 億美元、7 億美元。那麼，我們是否預期 26 年的銷售額將比 25 年的銷售額成長 4%，但會再節省 7 億美元成本。因此成本數字低於 340 億美元。如果您能就如何更明確地建立 26 年和 27 年的成本基礎向我們提供任何信息，那將會非常有幫助。謝謝。

Thank you, Andy. Let me deal with your capital question and I'll ask Pam to talk you through costs. But remember, we only guided return on tangible equity for '26 and '27, we haven't given additional specific guidance. So look on capital $2 billion because we have two months until April, and that amount will be reviewed on a case-by-case quarter-by-quarter basis. So we do not recommit on any future amounts. It will depend on the outlook and the loan growth and the other parameters as we get to it.

謝謝你，安迪。讓我來處理你的資本問題，然後我會讓帕姆和你討論成本。但請記住，我們僅指導了 26 年和 27 年的有形資產回報率，我們尚未提供額外的具體指導。因此，請關注 20 億美元的資本，因為到 4 月份我們還有兩個月的時間，並且該金額將根據具體情況逐季度進行審查。因此我們不會重新承諾任何未來的金額。這將取決於前景、貸款成長以及我們所了解的其他參數。

But the current $2 billion is obviously because we have two months until year results in April. Pam.

但目前的 20 億美元顯然是因為我們還有兩個月的時間才能在 4 月得出年度結果。帕姆。

Thank you, George. So in terms of costs, we are not giving a cost guidance beyond full year '25. So the big moving parts always when we look at our cost is, what's the underlying inflation, staff costs, and we also track very closely what's the increase in sort of fixed pay from a staff cost perspective. So it was expected 3.6% in '25. It was 4.4% in '24. So you can see the trajectory shifting as obviously, inflation is coming down.

謝謝你，喬治。因此，就成本而言，我們不會給出 25 年全年後的成本指引。因此，當我們考慮成本時，最大的變動因素始終是潛在的通貨膨脹率和員工成本，我們也會密切追蹤從員工成本角度來看固定薪資的成長情況。因此預計 25 年增長率為 3.6%。1924 年這一比例為 4.4%。因此，您可以看到軌跡正在發生轉變，顯然通貨膨脹正在下降。

We also include in that 4%, and we have for '25 additional investments. So you can do the math in terms of where we go through for '26. But also, let's be mindful. So far we are saying for '25, you're only taking $300 million of the $1.5 billion down to the savings line. So there is an absolute tailwind for the rest of it coming through for '26. So that's how the math works.

我們也把這 4% 包括在內，我們還有 25 年的額外投資。所以你可以計算一下我們 26 年要經歷什麼。但同時，我們也要注意。到目前為止，我們說對於 25 年來說，你只能從 15 億美元中拿出 3 億美元進入儲蓄線。因此，26 年剩下的事情絕對會順風順水。這就是數學的原理。

And as we go into '27, I would expect two things to happen. You will see some kind of a normalization on the inflation and the underlying build number. We will have the BAU investments. So that continues the same building block. But what's important is, even though the $1.5 billion has been taken down to the bottom line, we expect through our simplification, some of the additional efficiency costs beyond just FTE related costs, i.e., the ways are working. So that will give us some tailwind, but obviously not to the same extent as you've had in '26.

當我們進入27年時，我預計會發生兩件事。您會看到通貨膨脹和底層建造數量呈現某種正常化。我們將進行BAU投資。因此這延續了相同的構建塊。但重要的是，儘管 15 億美元已被計入底線，我們預計透過簡化，除了 FTE 相關成本之外，還會產生一些額外的效率成本，即這些方法正在發揮作用。因此，這會給我們帶來一些順風，但顯然不會達到 26 年那樣的程度。

Amit Goel, Mediobanca.

Amit Goel，Mediobanca。

So two questions then from me. So one is, again, just when you're talking about the mid-teens RoTE target. So this year, on a reported basis, it was 14.6% on an ex notable items, 16%. Just wanted to see, are you thinking about that more in line with the kind of underlying ex notable items level that you've achieved this year and that you can maintain that given the cost savings and wealth management growth that you're targeting? Or are you looking at it more closer to the kind of the reported number that you achieved in 2024?

那我有兩個問題。因此，當你再次談論十幾歲的 RoTE 目標時，一個問題就出現了。因此，今年，根據報告，扣除重要項目後，比率為 14.6%，為 16%。只是想看看，您是否認為這更符合您今年實現的潛在不包括顯著項目水平，並且考慮到您所針對的成本節約和財富管理增長，您是否可以保持這種水平？或者您更接近 2024 年實現的報告數字？

And then secondly, I just wanted to dig in a bit more in terms of the kind of the potential revenue impact or lack of from the cost actions, including the reprioritization. Just to understand how you're thinking about the kind of the marginal or negligible revenue impact. Is that because you just expect the revenue growth elsewhere from the reallocation of costs or how you're thinking about that? Thank you.

其次，我只是想更深入地探討成本行動（包括重新排序）對潛在收入的影響或不足之處。只是為了了解您如何看待邊際或可忽略的收入影響。這是因為您只是希望透過成本重新分配來實現其他地方的收入成長，還是您對此有何看法？謝謝。

Thank you very much, Amit. Amit, I'll take your first question, and I'll ask Pam to address your second question about how we're looking to face cost and the reallocation and the revenue impact of that. Look, so it's quite simple for the first question. What do we mean by mid-teens is around 14% to 16%. And our target is on return on tangible equity, excluding notable items. This is how you should look at it. Pam?

非常感謝，阿米特。阿米特，我來回答你的第一個問題，然後我會請帕姆來回答你的第二個問題，關於我們如何應對成本、重新分配以及由此產生的收入影響。看，第一個問題非常簡單。我們所說的十幾歲指的是大約 14% 到 16%。我們的目標是有形資產報酬率（不包括值得注意的項目）。你應該這樣看待它。帕姆？

Thank you, George. And Amit, just adding a little bit to the RoTE question, mid-teens is mid-teens, what it says on the 10%, 14% to 16%, and it's a target. And obviously, if the world is in a better place there is an upside, but you also have to look at the downside, and that's how we look at all scenarios in our assumptions.

謝謝你，喬治。阿米特，我只是想補充一點關於 RoTE 的問題，十幾歲就是十幾歲，上面說的是 10%、14% 到 16%，這是一個目標。顯然，如果世界變得更美好，就會有一個好的方面，但你也必須考慮壞的方面，這就是我們在假設中看待所有情景的方式。

Coming back to your second question on the $1.5 billion. So firstly, I want to clarify -- the first $1.5 billion, which is simplification savings, has no revenue impact because it's literally more senior roles, deduplication, simplifying the matrix. So on that, there is no revenue impact. And the whole sort of savings is a tailwind goes straight to the bottom line.

回到你關於 15 億美元的第二個問題。首先，我想澄清一下——前 15 億美元是簡化節省的資金，對收入沒有影響，因為它實際上是更高級的角色、重複資料刪除、簡化矩陣。因此，這對收入沒有影響。而整個節省過程將直接影響最終收益。

On the second $1.5 billion, which is different, it is clearly a reallocation which will happen at the -- from the individual business level, but we'll take it all to the group level. Now when you take it out to the group level, there is going to be some time lag between the cost coming up and reinvesting. But we do think that the payback period is pretty quick because we know it's in existing areas we want to reinvest. So that time lag on the revenue should not be that long and that will get compensated.

對於第二筆 15 億美元，情況有所不同，這顯然是一種重新分配，將從單一業務層級進行，但我們會將其全部提升到集團層級。現在，當你將其提升到集團層級時，成本產生和再投資之間會存在一些時間差。但我們確實認為回報期相當快，因為我們知道我們想在現有領域進行再投資。因此，收入的時間落後不應該太長，而且會得到補償。

But as we have said before, we are taking this reallocation of costs, particularly from two areas: one where which are subscale and so materially don't really make an impact in terms of your profit, they're small-scale divestments. But there are others where, in terms of profitability, they are not materially profitable, like we said, on the investment bank. So therefore, as we take them through into new areas with higher returns and being very focused on those which are our competitive strengths, we do think that, that positivity will come back pretty quickly.

但正如我們之前所說，我們正在重新分配成本，特別是從兩個方面：一是規模較小，因此實際上不會對利潤產生影響，它們是小規模的撤資。但就獲利能力而言，其他一些銀行並沒有實現實質的獲利，就像我們所說的投資銀行。因此，當我們帶領他們進入回報更高的新領域，並高度關注我們的競爭優勢時，我們確實認為，這種積極性將很快恢復。

Any more in the room before we go back to the -- Katherine please.

在我們回到房間之前，請問還有什麼可以問的嗎？請問凱瑟琳。

I'm Katherine from JPMorgan. I just want to clarify on the cost questions I would like to ask about the second $1.5 billion. Have we factored that in, in the mid-teens royalty guidance, like because with when we are exiting some business, we need some regulatory approval, and it's hard to gauge the timeline. So like what kind of like assumptions that we have regarding this part in our meeting RoTE guidance. Like the underlying question is that will we see some upside because if we do it faster or slower like that?

我是摩根大通的凱瑟琳。我只是想澄清一下有關第二個 15 億美元的成本問題。我們是否已將這一點考慮在內，在十幾歲的特許權使用費指導中，因為當我們退出某些業務時，我們需要一些監管部門的批准，而且很難判斷時間表。那麼，我們在會議 RoTE 指導中對這部分有什麼樣的假設。潛在的問題是，如果我們做得更快或更慢，我們是否會看到一些好處？

The second one, I still want to ask about CRE question. I think it's old questions, but I think still have a lot of people -- a lot of investors care about it. So both in Hong Kong and China, in last quarter, we heard some events, which led to some concerns on these areas. If I look at our 4Q numbers, I know that some edging up on the ECL charges. Is any part of that related to CRE? And what is our outlook on CRE in both region? Thank you.

第二個，我還是想問關於CRE的問題。我認為這是一個老問題，但我認為仍然有很多人——很多投資者關心這個問題。上個季度，我們在香港和中國都聽到了一些事件，引起了人們對這些地區的一些擔憂。如果我看一下我們的第四季數據，我知道 ECL 費用有所上升。其中有任何部分與 CRE 相關嗎？我們對這兩個地區的企業房地產的展望如何？謝謝。

Thank you, Katherine. Katherine, I'm going to ask Pam to address both your questions. But let me share with you just briefly my outlook on the CRE situation. So first, in Mainland China, we believe we've had a trough really in the challenges that the sector has faced. We believe the measures that have been taken to stabilize and start a normalization process are working their way effectively through the economy. But more importantly, our exposure has materially reduced. And therefore, it is not going to be any more -- any major driver for ECM.

謝謝你，凱瑟琳。凱瑟琳，我將請帕姆來回答你的兩個問題。但請容許我簡要地與大家分享一下我對 CRE 情況的看法。首先，在中國大陸，我們認為該行業面臨的挑戰確實已經進入低谷。我們相信，為穩定和啟動正常化進程而採取的措施正在經濟中有效發揮作用。但更重要的是，我們的曝光度已大幅減少。因此，它將不再成為 ECM 的主要驅動力。

Second, about Hong Kong, so we're actually positive about the outlook of Hong Kong. Hong Kong first, the economy and certainly rate trajectory is going to support that. We're seeing growth manifest in '24 and growth outlook in '25 and a number of sectors have really -- have revived. But also in the CRE space. The underlying CRE market in Hong Kong is strong and resilient. The supply-demand equation is very supportive for the medium to long term. And as we said, the rate outlook will also support that.

第二，關於香港，我們對香港的前景持樂觀態度。首先是香港，經濟和利率軌跡肯定會支持這一點。我們看到 2024 年的成長動能和 2025 年的成長前景，許多產業確實已經復甦。但也在 CRE 領域。香港的商業地產市場基礎強勁且富有彈性。供需平衡對中長期而言非常有利。正如我們所說，利率前景也將支持這一點。

But then if you look at our exposure to many of the borrowers in this space, the borrowers are much stronger and much less leveraged than what we've seen in the China CRE space. They're in a better balance sheet position, albeit they may have cash flow challenges due to high rates, et cetera. But the loan to valuation we have on our exposure is also very strong in the 50s percent. Therefore, we do not think the Hong Kong CRE exposure in our books will be any material driver of our future ECLs.

但如果你看一下我們在這個領域對許多藉款人的投資，你會發現這些借款人的實力比我們在中國企業房地產領域看到的要強得多，槓桿率也要低得多。儘管他們可能因高利率等原因面臨現金流挑戰，但他們的資產負債表狀況有所改善。但我們敞口的貸款估值比率也非常高，達到 50% 左右。因此，我們認為帳簿上的香港企業房地產敞口不會成為我們未來預期信用損失的任何重大驅動因素。

Pam can address your questions on cost and take you more specifically in the CRE elements.

Pam 可以解答您關於成本的問題，並更具體地向您介紹 CRE 元素。

Thank you for your question. So firstly, yes, we have factored the reallocation into our mid-teen RoTE guidance. and we'll work as quickly as we can to reallocate cost to higher return areas. Obviously, if it is faster than our assumptions, we tend to be a bit conservative, which is a good space to be in, then there'll be some upside, but given regulatory approvals, et cetera, things can be slower. But all in all, we are still very comfortable to have a mid-teen RoTE for each of the next three years.

感謝您的提問。首先，是的，我們已經將重新分配納入了我們的中等 RoTE 指導中。我們將盡快將成本重新分配到回報率更高的領域。顯然，如果它比我們的假設更快，我們傾向於有點保守，這是一個很好的空間，那麼會有一些上行空間，但考慮到監管部門的批准等等，事情可能會更慢。但總而言之，我們仍然對未來三年每年的 RoTE 處於十幾歲的水平感到非常滿意。

So in terms of -- I'll take the China CRE question first then I'll do Hong Kong CRE. Now China CRE, we've always been very comfortable with our onshore exposure, which has been secured. The issue really has been with the offshore exposure, which was unsecured. But that number is way down from where we started. We are now down to sort of [$2.2 billion] net of ECLs.

因此就——我將先回答中國企業房地產問題，然後再回答香港企業房地產問題。現在，我們對中國企業房地產的在岸業務一直非常放心，並且已經獲得了保障。問題實際上在於無擔保的離岸風險敞口。但這個數字與我們開始時相比已經大幅下降。現在我們的預期信用損失淨額已經降至 [22 億美元]。

And out of that, there is very little of the exposures that we feel that there is more headwind. And as you can see, the charge for ECL in last year was much lower than the prior year. So that, I think, gives me a sense of optimism with regard to the trajectory of the China CRE outlook. And of course, you could have one-off cases and things move on, but overall, it's based upon our exposure.

除此之外，我們覺得面臨更大阻力的風險很小。如您所見，去年的 ECL 費用比前一年低得多。因此，我認為，這讓我對中國企業房地產的前景軌跡感到樂觀。當然，可能會有個別案例，事情也會繼續發展，但總的來說，這取決於我們的曝光程度。

Now in Hong Kong CRE, now let's start from a starting point. As long as the interest rate trajectory is high, of course, you can see some customers facing headwinds because it's a cash flow issue fundamentally. And that makes you bring more names into the Stage 3s. But what's very important to note is that despite them coming into Stage 3s, our ECLs haven't increased. And the answer is quite simple, that most of the names coming through the Stage 3s last year have been from a secured portfolio, which is 54% of our total portfolio.

現在在香港CRE，讓我們從一個起點開始。當然，只要利率軌跡較高，你就會看到一些客戶面臨阻力，因為從根本上來說這是一個現金流問題。這會讓你將更多的名字帶入第 3 階段。但要注意的是，儘管進入了第 3 階段，我們的 ECL 卻沒有增加。答案很簡單，去年通過第三階段的大多數公司都來自有擔保的投資組合，占我們總投資組合的 54%。

And as George said, there's a very high level of collateralization. I mean average LTV on substandard is 46% and on the impaired is at 58%. So there's enough room in that space and there is strong collateral. So even when they go to Stage 3, there's not an ECL increase, and the ECL increase this year has been minimal, and we see nothing changing there.

正如喬治所說，抵押水平非常高。我的意思是次級貸款的平均 LTV 為 46%，而受損貸款的平均 LTV 為 58%。因此，該領域有足夠的空間，並且有強大的抵押品。因此，即使進入第 3 階段，ECL 也不會增加，而且今年的 ECL 增加幅度很小，我們認為沒有任何變化。

On the unsecured, 90% of it is investment grade. So 46% of portfolio is unsecured, 90% is investment grade. And it's primarily with your conglomerates and strong developers. And because they have diversified cash flows, the influence is Stage 3 from this portion of the book is very small.

就無擔保債券而言，90% 屬於投資等級。因此，46% 的投資組合是無擔保的，90% 是投資等級的。這主要與你們的企業集團和強大的開發商有關。而且由於他們的現金流多樣化，這部分內容對第三階段的影響非常小。

So all in all, even though with the increase in S3s, you see a minimal uplift in RWAs and the capital impact, but a very small capital impact. From an ECL perspective, there is really no material change in the ECL trajectory at this point of time. And we are very comfortable that it's all well within our midterm guidance of 30 to 40 basis points.

總而言之，儘管隨著 S3 的增加，您也會看到 RWA 和資本影響的微小提升，但資本影響非常小。從 ECL 的角度來看，目前 ECL 軌跡實際上並沒有發生實質變化。我們非常放心，這一切都在我們的中期指導範圍之內，即 30 至 40 個基點。

Joe Dickerson, Jefferies.

喬‧迪克森，傑富瑞。

Just a quick one following on from the Hong Kong CRE question. If I look at the ECL allowance to Stage 3, it was like 67% FY23, and that's fallen to, I think about to 26% -- 25%, 26% in respect of full year for the Hong Kong piece. So I guess I'm just wondering what explains that decline? Is it the proportion of the Stage 3s that are secured that's driving that reduction in coverage? Or what's the answer there? And how low can that number go?

我只是想快速回答一下有關香港綜合招聘考試 (CRE) 的問題。如果我看一下第三階段的預期信用損失準備金，那麼它在 23 財年大約為 67%，而我認為就香港部分全年而言，這一數字已經下降到 26% - 25%，26%。所以我只是想知道是什麼導致了這種下降？是第三階段保險的比例導致了保險覆蓋率的下降？還是那裡的答案是什麼？那麼這個數字可以降到多低呢？

Happy to take the question. Thank you. You're absolutely right. It is really the -- because all of the Stage 3 is virtually very large majority is coming through from the secured and given the cover -- it's ECLs or the ECL coverage is dropping through. But also, we've written off some of the China CRE exposure overall and should think in terms of total exposures that we have, and that's also reducing the ECL coverage.

很高興回答這個問題。謝謝。你完全正確。這確實是 — — 因為第 3 階段的所有內容實際上絕大多數都來自擔保和給定的覆蓋範圍 — — 它的 ECL 或 ECL 覆蓋範圍正在下降。但同時，我們已經整體註銷了部分中國企業房地產風險敞口，而應該考慮我們的總風險敞口，這也降低了預期信用損失覆蓋率。

Aman Rakkar, Barclays.

巴克萊銀行的阿曼‧拉卡爾 (Aman Rakkar)。

Hey, guys, two questions. I think you're pointing to a much better pre-provision profit outlook. I guess we've labored the discussion around (technical difficulty). But my takeaway is that it is broadly flattish beyond '25, maybe a bit of growth, but well lower than where the three years. I think banking NII guide also going to speak for itself.

嘿，夥計們，有兩個問題。我認為您指的是撥備前利潤前景要好得多。我想我們已經就以下問題展開了討論（技術難度）。但我的看法是，25年後整體持平，也許會有所成長，但遠低於三年的水平。我認為銀行 NII 指南也將不言自明。

So the two kind of related questions for that. One is around noninterest income. I think you're coming in -- there's a lot of moving parts on noninterest income, but I think you're coming in with significant momentum on noninterest income in expensive consensus. But we do have a lot of moving parts there. I mean, is there anything you can do to help us?

因此，這是兩種相關的問題。一是非利息收入。我認為你正在進入——非利息收入方面有很多變動因素，但我認為你在昂貴的共識中以顯著的勢頭進入非利息收入領域。但我們確實有很多活動部件。我的意思是，您能為我們做些什麼嗎？

I know you don't like to talk too much about noninterest income because there's volatile line items in it, but got double-digit growth momentum in Wealth Management, Grade that's probably growing low to mid-single digit. You know what markets do, but they're probably not going back when you got a retail piece as well. But it just does feel like that is something that is trending well in excess. So if you were able to and comment in the '25 consensus, that would be really helpful.

我知道您不喜歡談論太多非利息收入，因為其中涉及波動性較大的項目，但財富管理業務實現了兩位數的增長勢頭，級別可能處於低到中等個位數的增長。你知道市場在做什麼，但當你購買零售產品時，它們可能就不會回頭了。但它確實感覺像是一種過度流行的趨勢。因此，如果您能夠對 25 共識發表評論，那將會非常有幫助。

The second is about banking NII. So the $42 billion guide this year is obviously great. And I know there's a lot of focus on lending, but really deposits that matter right? I mean you alluded to this (technical difficulty). And loans are going to be subdued for a while, but deposits are already growing, they're going to continue growing from here. So can you kind of help us with that? Are you able to quantify the kind of deposit growth and kind of average interest earning asset growth that we might look to expect? Because I think you can positively grow your balance sheet despite the demand dynamic in your key markets. And I think that really helped underpin the kind of banking NII beyond '25%.

第二是關於銀行NII。因此，今年 420 億美元的指導金額顯然很棒。我知道大家非常關注貸款，但存款真的很重要嗎？我的意思是你提到了這一點（技術難度）。貸款將在一段時間內受到抑制，但存款已在增長，並將繼續增長。那你能幫我們做些什麼嗎？您能否量化我們可能預期的存款成長類型和平均生息資產成長類型？因為我認為，無論主要市場的需求如何，您都可以積極地增加資產負債表。我認為這確實有助於支撐超過 25% 的銀行 NII。

My kind of slight part question then I'm going to nick it in, but it's just around FX. And if you were to mark to market any of the kind of cost guide, for example, for the spot FX rates, if that would affect any of your kind of guidance or commentary today, that would be really helpful. Thanks so much.

我會稍微回答一下我的部分問題，但它只是與 FX 有關。如果您要以市價計價任何類型的成本指南，例如現貨外匯匯率，如果這會影響您今天的任何指導或評論，那將非常有幫助。非常感謝。

Thank you, Aman. I'll ask Pam to handle your banking NII question and the FX question, which obviously will have an impact on our banking NII guidance. And I'll take your first question by saying nice try. Unfortunately, I cannot give you more than what we shared. Look, what we've shared is confidence that we're running the bank towards a mid-teens target, on return on tangible equity, excluding notable items for '25, '26 and '27.

謝謝你，阿曼。我會讓帕姆處理您的銀行 NII 問題和外匯問題，這顯然會對我們的銀行 NII 指導產生影響。對於你的第一個問題，我會說「做得很好」。不幸的是，我無法給你比我們分享的更多的東西。你看，我們都對銀行有信心實現中等程度的目標，有形資產回報率（不包括 25、26 和 27 年的顯著項目）。

We are also guiding to a medium-term outlook on Wealth at double-digit growth. which we're comfortable with, given this is an area where we're investing in, and we see the underlying trend supportive. But this is more a medium-term guidance. It's difficult to evaluate what it means on a year-on-year or quarter-on-quarter basis. And we're also comfortable that our Wholesale Transaction Banking, given our strong leadership position in many of these areas, we will be able to ride the wave.

我們也預測財富的中期前景將達到兩位數成長。我們對此感到滿意，因為這是我們投資的領域，而且我們看到了潛在的支持趨勢。但這更多的是一個中期指導。很難評估其同比或環比變化意味著什麼。我們也對我們的批發交易銀行業務充滿信心，鑑於我們在許多領域中強大的領導地位，我們將能夠順應潮流。

And we think the wave, say the macro is in a low single-digit percentage growth, but is subject to possible disruptions, but the underlying trend, if you look at Global Trade with all forms of corridors, not just some of the disrupted corridors, other corridors are likely to continue growing. I think this is how you should look at it.

我們認為，宏觀經濟處於低個位數百分比成長，但可能會受到干擾，但潛在的趨勢是，如果你看看全球貿易中所有形式的走廊，而不僅僅是一些中斷的走廊，其他走廊可能會繼續增長。我認為你應該這樣看待它。

And remember, the rate trajectory as well. It's still uncertain, but that will be -- that will be a way if we see a faster rate cuts than we've employed. Let me just pause here on that part of the question. Ask Pam to take you through bank NII and FX.

請記住，利率軌跡也是如此。這仍然不確定，但如果我們看到比以往更快的降息速度，那將是一種方法。讓我在這裡就這個問題的這一部分暫停一下。讓 Pam 帶您了解銀行 NII 和 FX。

Thank you, Aman. So firstly, our cost guidance is on a cost -- on a constant currency basis. So clearly, from an FX perspective, there could be an impact. In terms of the $42 billion guidance, you're right. I mean, loans, we say it's mid-single digit, medium term and lower rates will help to get some momentum back, but it's also driven by overall market confidence. So I can't really call out the timing of the return to loan growth exactly.

謝謝你，阿曼。首先，我們的成本指引是基於固定貨幣計算的。因此，從外匯角度來看，顯然可能會產生影響。就 420 億美元的指導金額而言，你是對的。我的意思是，就貸款而言，我們說它是中等個位數，中期和較低的利率將有助於恢復一些勢頭，但這也受到整體市場信心的驅動。因此我無法準確預測貸款恢復成長的具體時間。

Now deposits clearly was a key one in fourth quarter. But we know that in fourth quarter, there's always a bit of a seasonality effect. So I would very much caution you against annualizing that number. But I think in terms of deposits, if I look at just the drivers for the $42 billion guidance, there's obviously interest rates, which is a headwind at this point of time given the market implied rate curves and then there is structural hedge, which will be a tailwind loans we've talked about.

現在，存款顯然是第四季的關鍵因素。但我們知道，在第四季度，總是會有一些季節性的影響。所以我強烈建議你不要將該數字按年化。但我認為，就存款而言，如果我只看 420 億美元指導的驅動因素，顯然是利率，考慮到市場隱含利率曲線，這是目前的一個阻力，然後是結構性對沖，這將是我們討論過的順風貸款。

On deposits, we are very lucky to have a strong deposit base, as you've said. And the trust of our customers to give us those deposits is a cornerstone for our strong balance sheet. The deposit benefit for next year is driven by what's going to be the time deposit mix because that sort of held through in the fourth quarter. And that deposit mix as the interest rates come down, we expect the time deposit mix to also come down. So in that context, you can factor that in as part of your overall calculation in terms of the headwinds and the tailwinds.

關於存款，正如您所說，我們很幸運擁有強大的存款基礎。客戶對我們存款的信任是我們強勁資產負債表的基石。明年的存款收益取決於定期存款組合，因為這種組合在第四季度得到了維持。隨著利率下降，我們預期定期存款結構也會下降。因此，在這種情況下，您可以將其作為逆風和順風的整體計算的一部分。

Rob Noble, Deutsche Numis.

諾布爾（Rob Noble），《德國錢幣》。

Morning. Thank you for taking my question. I just wanted to ask a little bit more on the $1.5 billion of reallocation in the strategy. How much line of sight do you have on it at this point? So I presume GBM, Germany and France is around $500 million in costs. So do you know where the other $1 billion is coming from and the phasing of it and ending phase? So what are the restructuring charges from this part of the strategy? Should I still be thinking about the 1.2 times the cost saves as additional below-the-line items against that $1.5 billion? Or is that the wrong way to think about it? Thanks.

早晨。感謝您回答我的問題。我只是想就該戰略中的 15 億美元重新分配問題再問一些問題。現在，您的視線距離有多遠？所以我估計 GBM、德國和法國的成本約為 5 億美元。那麼，您知道另外 10 億美元來自哪裡以及它的分階段和結束階段嗎？那麼該策略的這一部分重組費用是多少？我是否仍應將節省下來的 1.2 倍成本視為 15 億美元中的額外離線項目？或者說，這是錯誤的思考方式？謝謝。

Okay. Thank you, Rob, for the question. Look, let me handle the reallocation, and I'll ask Pam to comment on the cost implication and treatment, if you want. So first, look, your math is right. I mean, there are a number of activities we already called out, the investment banking refocus would generate around $0.3 billion of sales and what lose about $0.3 billion of revenue against it. So that's quite there.

好的。羅布，謝謝你提出這個問題。聽著，讓我來處理重新分配，如果你願意的話，我會請帕姆對成本影響和處理方式發表評論。首先，看看，你的數學是正確的。我的意思是，我們已經提出了一些活動，重新聚焦投資銀行業務將產生約 3 億美元的銷售額，同時也將損失約 3 億美元的收入。確實如此。

We did announce the German Private Bank, the French Insurance. We announced this morning also the sale of our Bahrain Retail Business. So those are kind of in motion. There are a number of other things we've called out that are in motion. There are a number of selectively identified number of activities that are nonstrategic, which we're working on, and there will be a continuation of that journey.

我們確實宣布了德國私人銀行和法國保險公司。我們今天上午也宣佈出售巴林零售業務。所以它們都處於運動狀態。我們也提出了一些正在實施中的其他事項。我們正在選擇性地進行一些非策略性活動，並將繼續這一進程。

If you just kind of note that we said this is a medium-term number. We haven't given a strict deadline because some of these actions may take longer or may be subject to various approvals that are beyond our control, and we will be able to share with you as and when we move forward. Pam?

如果你注意到我們說這是一個中期數字。我們沒有給出嚴格的期限，因為其中一些行動可能需要更長時間，或者可能需要經過我們無法控制的各種批准，我們將在取得進展時與您分享。帕姆？

Thanks. So first, yes, we have identified the rest of the costs. We can't give a precise cost at this point of time. We'll obviously keep you updated over the next quarters.

謝謝。首先，是的，我們已經確定了其餘的成本。目前我們無法給出準確的成本。我們當然會在接下來的幾季內向您通報最新情況。

Now in terms of the one-off costs, yes, there will be severance and other one-off costs, and we will be looking at those costs as -- in a -- to a large extent, given the materiality where there is from a notable -- as a notable item.

現在就一次性成本而言，是的，會有遣散費和其他一次性成本，我們將在很大程度上將這些成本視為值得注意的事項，因為這些成本的重要性顯而易見。

So that's kind of the broad picture in terms of how we're progressing. So good broad line. We own where we are, but I can't give you any more precision at this point of time.

這就是我們進展的整體情況。很好的寬線。我們知道我們所處的位置，但目前我無法給你更精確的資訊。

Okay. Well, thank you all for your questions. So in closing, some 2024 performance. This provides us firm foundations upon which we are building. We've simplified the group and along with our continued focus on costs, I said -- we are committed to delivering circa $1.5 billion of savings to the bottom line.

好的。好吧，謝謝大家的提問。最後，我們來看看 2024 年的一些表現。這為我們今後的建設提供了堅實的基礎。我們已經簡化了集團，並且繼續專注於成本，我說——我們致力於實現約 15 億美元的利潤節約。

We're also focused on delivering for our customers by capturing growth opportunities where we have a clear competitive advantage and accretive returns. And we are eliminating over the medium term, an additional circa $1.5 billion of cost from nonstrategic or low returning activities and redeploying them into these priority growth areas.

我們也致力於透過抓住具有明顯競爭優勢和增值回報的成長機會來為客戶提供服務。從中期來看，我們將消除非策略性或低迴報活動中約 15 億美元的額外成本，並將其重新部署到這些優先成長領域。

We're also targeting a mid-teens return on tangible equity in each of '25, '26 and '27. As usual, Neil and the team are available for any follow-up. Meanwhile, Pam and I hope to see many of you here in Hong Kong next month for our Second HSBC Global Investment Summit. Enjoy the rest of your day.

我們也計劃在 2025 年、2026 年和 2027 年分別實現有形資產回報率達到 15% 左右。像往常一樣，Neil 和他的團隊隨時準備提供任何後續服務。同時，潘姆和我希望下個月在香港舉行的第二屆匯豐全球投資高峰會上見到大家。享受你剩餘的一天。

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, you may now disconnect the call.

謝謝。女士們，先生們，現在可以掛斷電話了。