Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson (ERIC) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the presentation of Ericsson's second quarter 2025 results. With me here in the studio today are Börje Ekholm, our President and CEO; and Lars Sandstrom, our Chief Financial Officer.

大家好，歡迎參加愛立信2025年第二季業績發表會。今天和我一起來到攝影棚的還有我們的總裁兼執行長 Börje Ekholm 和我們的財務長 Lars Sandstrom。

As usual, we'll have a short presentation followed by Q&A, and in order to ask a question, you'll need to join the conference by phone. Details can be found in today's earnings release and in the investor relations website. Please be advised that today's call is being recorded and that today's presentation may include forward-looking statements.

像往常一樣，我們將進行簡短的演講，然後進行問答，為了提問，您需要透過電話加入會議。詳細資訊請參閱今天的收益報告和投資者關係網站。請注意，今天的電話會議正在錄音，今天的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。

These statements are based on our current expectations and certain planning assumptions which are subject to risks and uncertainties. The actual results may differ materially due to factors mentioned in today's press release and discussed in this conference call. We encourage you to read about these risks and uncertainties in our earnings report as well as in our annual report.

這些聲明是基於我們目前的預期和某些規劃假設，這些假設存在風險和不確定性。由於今天的新聞稿中提到以及本次電話會議中討論的因素，實際結果可能存在重大差異。我們鼓勵您閱讀我們的收益報告和年度報告中有關這些風險和不確定性的信息。

I'll now hand over the call to Börje and to Lars for their introductory comments.

我現在將電話交給 Börje 和 Lars，請他們發表介紹評論。

Thanks, Daniel, and good morning everyone and thanks for joining us today. So we delivered a solid Q2 with organic growth of 2% following the weak development the last few years and three year high in EBITA margin as we continue to demonstrate strong execution against both our operational and strategic priorities. Milestones included one-fifth quarter in a row of positive EBITA in cloud software and services.

謝謝，丹尼爾，大家早安，謝謝您今天加入我們。因此，在經歷了過去幾年的疲軟發展之後，我們在第二季度取得了穩健的業績，有機成長率達到 2%，EBITA 利潤率創下三年新高，因為我們繼續在營運和策略重點方面表現出強勁的執行力。里程碑包括雲端軟體和服務連續五分之一季度實現正 EBITA。

And we continue to have the solid execution in networks with good gross margin. We returned to sequential growth in global communication platform following the market exits, and Aduna has now signed up all three operators in Japan. We achieved these results despite the fluid geopolitical and trade environment, and let me give you some key financial and strategic takeaways before Lars dive further into the numbers.

我們在網路中的執行力持續穩健，毛利率也很好。在退出市場後，我們在全球通訊平台恢復了連續成長，Aduna 現已與日本所有三家營運商簽約。儘管地緣政治和貿易環境不穩定，我們仍然取得了這些成果，在拉爾斯進一步深入研究這些數字之前，讓我先給大家介紹一些關鍵的財務和戰略要點。

So as I said, organic sales grew by 2% with growth in market area Americas and in IPR and despite the temporary investment pauses in India, we also saw increasing FX headwinds during the quarter, almost SEK5 billion a year over year.

正如我所說，隨著美洲市場和智慧財產權的增長，有機銷售額增長了 2%，儘管印度的投資暫時停止，但我們在本季度也看到外匯逆風不斷增加，同比增長近 50 億瑞典克朗。

As I mentioned, we saw a strong development in our margins. Gross margin came in at 48%, and we delivered an EBITA margin of 13.2%. And importantly, the margin improvements was broad based across all segments. And we see here the cost actions we took during the last year and it's now flowing through the P&L and we continue of course to take actions to improve our cost base and that should also provide benefits over time.

正如我所提到的，我們的利潤率有了強勁的成長。毛利率達 48%，EBITA 利潤率達到 13.2%。重要的是，所有部門的利潤率都有廣泛提高。我們在這裡看到了我們去年採取的成本行動，現在它正在流入損益表，我們當然會繼續採取行動來改善我們的成本基礎，這也應該會隨著時間的推移帶來好處。

While we expect the overall market environment, or macroeconomic environment to remain, in fluid or dynamic, we expect the rand market will broadly be stable for the remainder of the year. For the rand market to return to long term growth, it remains clear that the industry needs new monetization opportunities.

雖然我們預計整體市場環境或宏觀經濟環境將保持流動或動態，但我們預計蘭特市場在今年剩餘時間內將大致保持穩定。為了使蘭特市場恢復長期成長，很明顯該產業需要新的貨幣化機會。

To that end, we continue to execute on our strategic initiatives to create new use cases for mobile networks. The first major use case is fixed wireless access now has more than 160 million subscribers, and more interestingly, the net promoter score is often higher than for fiber. So to take full advantage of 5G, operators need to transition to 5G stand-alone networks because that will enable differentiated connectivity solutions.

為此，我們繼續執行我們的策略計劃，為行動網路創造新的用例。第一個主要用例是固定無線接入，目前擁有超過 1.6 億用戶，更有趣的是，淨推薦值通常高於光纖。因此，為了充分利用 5G，營運商需要過渡到 5G 獨立網絡，因為這將實現差異化的連接解決方案。

And it is now encouraging to see customers with 5GSA coverage actually offering service innovation like networks license for mission critical applications. In addition to that, we see network APIs as one of the key monetization engines for the industry as well as for us. So far revenues are small, but we see great interest in some initial API use cases such as fraud detection.

現在，令人鼓舞的是，看到擁有 5GSA 覆蓋的客戶實際上提供服務創新，例如針對關鍵任務應用的網路授權。除此之外，我們將網路 API 視為產業和我們自己的關鍵獲利引擎之一。到目前為止，收入很少，但我們看到人們對一些初始 API 用例（例如詐欺檢測）產生了濃厚的興趣。

In the quarter, our joint venture Aduna expanded to all three operators in Japan, and with that we now cover major markets with Aduna. In parallel to executing on our strategic priorities, we're focusing on strengthening Ericsson to succeed across a varying market conditions and that of course include discipline on pricing and cost.

本季度，我們的合資企業 Aduna 擴展到日本所有三家營運商，至此，我們現在透過 Aduna 覆蓋了主要市場。在執行我們的策略重點的同時，我們也致力於加強愛立信在不同的市場條件下取得成功的能力，當然這也包括定價和成本方面的紀律。

And this is in this quarter reflected in OpEx coming down from last year as we result of all the cost actions we have taken. And over the last year we have reduced our total number of employees by about 6% or 6,000 while we had organic growth and it's good now to see that actually coming through the numbers. And we see opportunities to further reduce costs following the structural actions like the combination of the three market areas into two, but we also see and expect big benefits from the use of AI.

由於我們採取了所有成本措施，本季的營運支出較去年同期有所下降，這反映出了這一點。去年，我們在實現有機成長的同時，將員工總數減少了約 6%，即 6,000 人，現在很高興看到這一數字確實實現了成長。我們看到了透過採取諸如將三個市場區域合併為兩個市場區域等結構性措施來進一步降低成本的機會，但我們也看到並期待從人工智慧的使用中獲益匪淺。

And that's one of the reasons why we expect restructuring costs to remain elevated during the year. I think AI could be one of the absolutely most important technologies we've ever seen, and for us it's a key part in how we design and operate networks so we're increasing our investments in the area. You might have seen this past quarter that we announced an AI factory consortium. Here in Sweden that will give us access to the latest chip and compute power.

這就是我們預計重組成本在今年將持續居高不下的原因之一。我認為人工智慧可能是我們所見過的最重要的技術之一，對我們來說，它是我們設計和營運網路的關鍵部分，因此我們正在增加對該領域的投資。您可能已經看到，我們在上個季度宣布成立了人工智慧工廠聯盟。在瑞典，我們將能夠使用最新的晶片和運算能力。

As we look ahead, AI will be a key driver for traffic in the networks as AI applications move to the edge, and we see that this will require 5G stand-alone to fully support these new type of use cases. So for example, we're talking low latency and guaranteed uplink performance. So this for us I would say is really a fundamental area so it's critical that we continue to lead in AI.

展望未來，隨著人工智慧應用向邊緣發展，人工智慧將成為網路流量的關鍵驅動因素，我們發現這將需要 5G 獨立來全面支援這些新型用例。例如，我們正在討論低延遲和保證的上行鏈路效能。所以，對我們來說，我想說這是一個真正的基礎領域，因此繼續在人工智慧領域保持領先至關重要。

So before moving on, let me comment quickly on the market development we saw in Q2. In market area America's sales increased by 10% year over year with good growth in North America, and that's of course encouraging as North America is often a front runner market. Both networks and cloud software and services grew, benefiting from previous contract wins.

因此，在繼續之前，讓我快速評論一下我們在第二季度看到的市場發展。在市場領域，美國銷售額年增 10%，北美成長良好，這當然令人鼓舞，因為北美通常是領先市場。由於先前贏得的合同，網路和雲端軟體及服務均實現了成長。

The strength in North America was partly offset by lower sales in Latin America where we continue to see intense competition from both Eastern and western vendors. Sales in Europe, Middle East and Africa declined by 1% year over year. In Europe, sales actually increased slightly, supported by network modernization.

北美市場的強勁表現被拉丁美洲市場的下滑所部分抵消，在拉丁美洲，我們仍然看到來自東方和西方供應商的激烈競爭。歐洲、中東和非洲的銷售額較去年同期下降了1%。在歐洲，受網路現代化的推動，銷售額實際上略有成長。

Europe is also a market where we see high competition from all vendors we're confident in our competitive portfolio and technology leadership so we remain commercially disciplined as we approach the market. In Southeast Asia, Oceania and India, sales decreased by 22% year over year. This was primarily due to the temporary pause in network investments in India related to specific market uncertainties, but, Southeast Asia is also an area where we saw increased competition.

歐洲也是一個我們看到所有供應商都參與激烈競爭的市場，我們對我們的競爭產品組合和技術領導充滿信心，因此我們在進入市場時將保持商業紀律。在東南亞、大洋洲和印度，銷售額較去年同期下降了22%。這主要是由於特定市場不確定性導致印度網路投資暫時停止，但東南亞也是我們看到競爭加劇的地區。

Lastly, sales in Northeast Asia declined by 15%. This was due to reduced customer investments in some 5G front runner markets. But in the quarter we have made strong progress on our discussions with customers in the Japanese market. In line with this, we also announced and I think you've seen that we will set up an R&D center in Japan.

最後，東北亞地區的銷售額下降了15%。這是由於一些 5G 領先市場的客戶投資減少。但本季我們與日本市場客戶的討論取得了重大進展。同時，我們也宣布，我想你已經看到，我們將在日本建立一個研發中心。

With that, I would like to hand over to Lars to go through the financial details -- more in detail or the financials more in detail.

說完這些，我想把時間交給拉爾斯來更詳細地介紹財務細節，或更詳細的財務狀況。

All right, thank you Borje. Let me start by giving some additional points to the group before discussing the segments. Net sales include two total SEK56.1 billion, with organic sales growing 2% year on year. Reported sales declined by 6% with a currency impact of SEK4.7 billion driven by the strengthening of the Swedish crone against the US dollar and other currencies.

好的，謝謝你 Borje。在討論各個部分之前，我首先要向小組提出一些額外的觀點。淨銷售額總計 561 億瑞典克朗，其中有機銷售額年增 2%。報告銷售額下降了 6%，由於瑞典克朗兌美元和其他貨幣的走強，貨幣影響達 47 億瑞典克朗。

IPR revenue increased to SEK4.9 billion in Q2 from SEK3.2 billion in Q1. The increase mainly related to previously unlicensed periods. The run rate existing in Q2 or coming out of Q2 is around SEK13 billion. The adjusted gross margin for Q2 came in at 48%, up from 43.9% in Q2 last year, and margin improvements were broad based across all segments driven by IPR revenue, favor product mix, and the cost reduction initiatives.

IPR 營收從第一季的 32 億瑞典克朗增至第二季的 49 億瑞典克朗。這一增長主要與之前未經許可的時期有關。第二季現有或即將結束的運行率約為 130 億瑞典克朗。第二季調整後的毛利率為 48%，高於去年同期的 43.9%，所有部門的利潤率均普遍提高，這得益於智慧財產權收入、優惠產品組合和成本削減措施。

It's worth noting that gross income had a negative currency impact of SEK2.4 billion. Compared to Q1, gross margin was slightly lower, mainly due to lower gross margin in networks, which was expected and which I will cover later.

值得注意的是，總收入產生了24億瑞典克朗的負面貨幣影響。與第一季相比，毛利率略有下降，主要是因為網路毛利率較低，這是意料之中的，我稍後會講到。

Operating expenses excluding restructuring charges stood at SEK20 billion. Around SEK3 billion lower than last year, about half of this reduction came from cost initiatives and the rest is mainly currency. Even with the currency ahead we know SEK1.4 billion adjusted the EBITA that went up by SEK3.4 billion, reaching SEK7.4 billion.

不包括重組費用的營運費用為200億瑞典克朗。比去年減少了約 30 億瑞典克朗，其中約一半的減幅來自成本舉措，其餘則來自貨幣。即使考慮到貨幣因素，我們知道 14 億瑞典克朗調整後的 EBITA 增加了 34 億瑞典克朗，達到 74 億瑞典克朗。

This improvement was driven by lower operating expenses and higher gross income, bringing the EBITA model to 13.2%. On the cash flow side, before M&A, we reported SEK2.6 billion, which is down compared to last year, and last year's cash flow benefit significantly from reduction in operating working capital thanks to the completion of large scale roll out projects and substantially lower inventory levels.

這項改善得益於較低的營運費用和較高的總收入，使 EBITA 模式達到 13.2%。在現金流方面，在併購之前，我們報告的現金流為 26 億瑞典克朗，與去年相比有所下降，而由於大規模推廣項目的完成和庫存水平大幅降低，去年的現金流因營運資本的減少而顯著受益。

So let's move to the segments. In network sales decreased by 5% year on year to SEK35.7 billion with a negative currency impact of SEK3.1 billion, so organic sales increased by 3%. In market area Americas organic sales showed good growth. Organic sales also grow slightly in the market area Europe, Middle East, and Africa.

那麼讓我們進入到各個部分。網路銷售額較去年同期下降 5% 至 357 億瑞典克朗，其中貨幣負面影響為 31 億瑞典克朗，因此有機銷售額成長 3%。在美洲市場區域，有機銷售額呈現良好成長。歐洲、中東和非洲市場地區的有機銷售額也略有成長。

And sales in the other markets areas declined with the most significant drop in India. IPR revenues also increased, supported by the settlement. The networks adjusted gross margin came in at 49.5%, benefiting from IPR licensing revenue, cost reduction initiatives, and favorable market mix partly offset by tariffs.

其他市場區域的銷售額均出現下降，其中印度的降幅最為顯著。受該和解協議的支持，知識產權收入也有所增加。網路調整後的毛利率達到 49.5%，受益於智慧財產權授權收入、成本削減措施以及有利的市場組合（但部分被關稅所抵銷）。

Compared to Q1 margins declined somewhat in Q2 as expected. The positive impact from higher IPR licensing revenue was offset by less favorable market and product mix and to some extent tariffs. Networks adjusted EBITA increased by SEK1.2 billion to SEK6.5 billion despite the negative currency impact of SEK1.3 billion.

與第一季相比，第二季的利潤率如預期有所下降。智慧財產權授權收入增加帶來的正面影響被不太有利的市場和產品組合以及一定程度上的關稅所抵消。儘管受到 13 億瑞典克朗的負面貨幣影響，但網路調整後的 EBITA 仍增加了 12 億瑞典克朗，達到 65 億瑞典克朗。

The beta margin improved significantly year on year, moving up to 18.2% from 13.9%. This was driven both by increased gross income and the lower operating expenses. Turning to segment cloud and software and services, sales declined by 5% year on year to SEK14.4 billion, which include a negative currency impact of SEK1 billion.

貝塔利潤率較去年同期大幅提高，從 13.9% 上升至 18.2%。這是由總收入增加和營運費用降低共同推動的。轉向雲端運算和軟體及服務領域，銷售額年減 5% 至 144 億瑞典克朗，其中包括 10 億瑞典克朗的負面貨幣影響。

On an organic basis, sales grew by 1%. The growth in market area Americas and IPR licensing partly offset by declines in the other market areas. Adjusted gross margin came in very strong in the quarter at 43.2%. This was a result of a favorable sales mix with a higher share of software and increased IPR revenues, but also that the continued focus on delivery performance and commercial discipline.

從有機角度來看，銷售額成長了 1%。美洲市場和智慧財產權授權市場的成長部分被其他市場領域的下滑所抵銷。本季調整後的毛利率非常強勁，達到 43.2%。這是由於銷售組合良好，軟體份額增加，智慧財產權收入增加，同時也是因為持續關注交付績效和商業紀律。

Adjusted EBITA increased to SEK1.4 billion with a more, 9.6% supported by higher gross income and lower operating expenses and including a SEK0.1 billion negative currency impact. In enterprise, sales decreased by 14% and organic sales were down 6%. Organic sales in enterprise wireless solutions grew by 5%, benefiting from higher product and subscription sales in enterprise networking.

調整後的 EBITA 增加至 14 億瑞典克朗，增幅超過 9.6%，這得益於總收入增加和營運費用降低，其中包括 1 億瑞典克朗的負面貨幣影響。企業銷售額下降了 14%，有機銷售額下降了 6%。企業無線解決方案的有機銷售額成長了 5%，受益於企業網路產品和訂閱銷售額的成長。

And global communications platform declined by 9%, impacted by the decision taken last year to reduce activities in some countries. We expect enterprise sales to stabilize during 2025 on an organic basis, excluding currency movements and the impact of I connector which is expected to close during Q3.

由於去年決定減少部分國家活動的影響，全球通訊平台業務下降了 9%。我們預計，不包括貨幣變動和預計第三季關閉的 I 連接器的影響，企業銷售額將在 2025 年實現有機穩定。

Adjusted gross margin increased to 54.9%. This was driven by the focus on more profitable market segments in global communications platform and a stronger product mix in enterprise wireless solutions. Just the debate that was minus SEK0.5 billion.

調整後毛利率增加至54.9%。這是由於公司專注於全球通訊平台中利潤更高的細分市場，以及企業無線解決方案中更強大的產品組合。光是辯論就虧損了 5 億瑞典克朗。

Turning to free cash flow, which was SEK2.6 billion before M&A, broadly in line with the previous quarter. And operating cash flow was also similar to Q1 at SEK4.1 billion, with the benefit of higher earnings broadly offset by changes in other operating net assets.

談到自由現金流，併購前為 26 億瑞典克朗，與上一季基本持平。營運現金流也與第一季相似，為 41 億瑞典克朗，但其他營運淨資產的變動基本上抵銷了收益增加的好處。

Invest in cash flow, cash outflow was SEK10.9 billion reflecting investments in interest bearing securities. The net cash decreased to SEK2.6 billion compared by -- SEK2.6 billion compared to the previous quarter. Dividend payments of SEK4.8 billion more than offset the positive free cash flow in the quarter.

投資現金流，現金流出 109 億瑞典克朗，反映了對有利息證券的投資。淨現金減少至 26 億瑞典克朗，與上一季相比減少 26 億瑞典克朗。48億瑞典克朗的股利支付足以抵銷本季的正自由現金流。

So next I will cover the outlook. Global uncertainty continues with potential for further tariff changes and broader macroeconomic factors like currency and trade flows. This can affect customer behaviors and investment decisions over time.

接下來我將介紹展望。全球不確定性持續存在，關稅可能進一步變化，貨幣和貿易流動等更廣泛的宏觀經濟因素也可能會改變。隨著時間的推移，這會影響客戶的行為和投資決策。

With that in mind, turning them first to sales. We expect networks Q3 to be below three year average seasonality, and this is mainly reflecting the mechanical impact of the higher IPR licensing revenue in Q2. In cloud software and services, we expect sales growth to be similar to average three year seasonality in Q3. Both of these indications assume current exchange rates and no tariff changes. Next, networks cross margin, we expect network gross margins to be in the range of 48% to 50% for Q3.

考慮到這一點，首先將其轉化為銷售。我們預計第三季網路的季節性將低於三年平均水平，這主要反映了第二季知識產權授權收入增加的機械影響。在雲端軟體和服務方面，我們預計第三季的銷售成長將與三年的平均季節性相似。這兩個指標都假設當前匯率和關稅沒有改變。接下來，網路交叉利潤率，我們預計第三季網路毛利率將在 48% 至 50% 之間。

And with that, I hand back to you, Borje.

說完這些，我把麥克風交還給你，博爾傑。

Thanks, Lars. So our Q2 results demonstrate solid execution of our strategic and operational priorities. We continue to strengthen our competitive position in mobile networks and expect the enterprise to stabilize during the second half of 2025 following global communication platform returning to sequential growth.

謝謝，拉爾斯。因此，我們的第二季業績證明了我們的策略和營運重點得到有力執行。我們持續加強在行動網路領域的競爭地位，並預期隨著全球通訊平台恢復連續成長，企業將在 2025 年下半年趨於穩定。

It's encouraging to see continued momentum in our strategy. In our customer discussions there continues to be strong interest in 5G standalone networks that provide differentiate the connectivity, and we're seeing new use cases to monetize the network investments taking shape. FWA defense mission critical, and we start to see different enterprise applications.

看到我們的策略持續保持強勁勢頭，令人鼓舞。在我們的客戶討論中，客戶對提供差異化連接的 5G 獨立網路持續表現出濃厚的興趣，並且我們看到了將網路投資貨幣化的新用例正在形成。FWA 防禦任務至關重要，我們開始看到不同的企業應用。

And many enterprise use cases are now moving from proof of concepts into real industrial deployments. I would say this is exciting, but of course it takes time to create these new markets. Ultimately, the exact timing of investment decisions will be in the hands of our customers, but we believe the mobile network market will remain broadly stable for the rest of the year.

許多企業用例現在正從概念驗證轉向實際的工業部署。我想說這令人興奮，但當然創造這些新市場需要時間。最終，投資決策的具體時機將掌握在我們的客戶手中，但我們相信，今年剩餘時間內行動網路市場將保持大致穩定。

In this environment, we continue to invest in technology leadership while also structurally improving our business through rigorous cost management and by improving working capital. This way we're positioning Ericsson to manage short term market swings and drive margin expansion even in challenging markets. At the same time, we remain well positioned for the long term and to drive growth in our business.

在這種環境下，我們繼續投資於技術領導力，同時透過嚴格的成本管理和改善營運資金從結構上改善我們的業務。透過這種方式，我們可以讓愛立信應對短期市場波動，即使在充滿挑戰的市場中也能推動利潤率的擴大。同時，我們仍處於有利地位，可以長期推動業務成長。

But before we turn to Q&A, I would really like to thank all my colleagues for their really hard work in making these results possible.

但在進入問答環節之前，我首先要感謝所有同事的辛勤工作，才使得這些成果得以實現。

With that, let's open up for Q&A, so over to you, Daniel.

下面，讓我們開始問答環節，現在輪到你了，丹尼爾。

(Event Instructions)

（活動須知）

Sandeep Deshpande, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的 Sandeep Deshpande。

My question is about your guidance on the gross margin in the network's business. You're guiding to a pretty robust gross margin into the next quarter. In the second quarter, you had some positive impacts from the Lenovo deal that you signed in the quarter. So are you expecting to sign more deals in the second quarter which helps the margin, or is the mix shifting because of some particular reasons? So I'm trying to understand the dynamics in the gross margin or in networks in the second quarter -- in the third quarter.

我的問題是關於您對網路業務毛利率的指導。您預計下個季度的毛利率將相當強勁。在第二季度，您簽署的與聯想的交易給您帶來了一些正面的影響。那麼，您是否預計在第二季簽署更多交易以有助於提高利潤率，還是由於某些特殊原因，交易組合會發生變化？因此，我試圖了解第二季和第三季的毛利率或網路動態。

When it comes to the margin outlook there, this is what we see when it comes to the product and market mix that we have at hand now coming into the quarter and it's not, related to IPR. It's more the underlying margins that we see coming into the quarter, so that is what we expect.

談到利潤前景，這是我們在本季現有產品和市場組合中看到的，與智慧財產權無關。我們看到的更多的是本季的潛在利潤率，所以這也是我們預期的。

So are you saying also that India will remain weak in the third quarter even though it was weak in the second quarter?

那麼您是否也表示，儘管印度第二季經濟表現疲軟，但第三季仍將保持疲軟？

I think the pause that we saw now is temporary when it will start coming back that I think it's difficult to say so we don't have too high expectations already in Q3 for India.

我認為我們現在看到的停頓是暫時的，什麼時候會開始恢復，我認為這很難說，所以我們對印度第三季的期望並不高。

Thank you. One thing that is not don't take this as an India comment, but the last few years we've actually worked quite a lot on reducing the sensitivity on gross margin to different margins and we're in a better shape today. Than ever before, so which makes it a bit more also predictable in that sense. Then some markets may go up, some markets may go down.

謝謝。有一件事不要把這當作印度的評論，但過去幾年我們實際上已經做了很多工作來降低毛利率對不同利潤率的敏感性，我們今天處於更好的狀態。比以往任何時候都更加如此，從這個意義上來說，這也使得它更加可預測。那麼一些市場可能會上漲，一些市場可能會下跌。

Sébastien Sztabowicz, Kepler Cheuvreux.

史巴博維奇 (Sébastien Sztabowicz)，開普勒‧舍弗勒 (Kepler Cheuvreux)。

On the OpEx, it was a little bit below expectation in the second quarter, how do you see the OpEx trending in the rest of the year or for the full year? Are you still forecasting a flattish OpEx for this year, there is a little bit of a downside to the OpEx level?

就營運支出而言，第二季略低於預期，您認為今年剩餘時間或全年的營運支出趨勢如何？您是否仍預測今年的營運支出將持平，營運支出水準會略有下降？

Yeah, as you saw, the result of the activities we have taken over the last year is coming through in the OpEx here now in the second quarter. So that we are happy to see. It takes time before these activities really come through. When it comes to the outlook there, we see a similar level in OpEx in the first and the second half. Normally, we have a bit of a higher seasonality cost in the second half. So that is a little bit how we see it going forward. But as I said, it takes a bit of time before the cost reductions start kicking through into the numbers. So that's why we stay on this, sort of say, view upon the second half for the year.

是的，正如您所看到的，我們去年所採取的行動的成果將在第二季度的營運支出中反映出來。令我們高興的是。這些活動真正發揮作用需要時間。談到前景，我們看到上半年和下半年的營運支出水準相似。通常情況下，下半年的季節性成本會稍微高一些。這就是我們對未來發展的看法。但正如我所說，成本降低的效果需要一些時間才能體現在數字上。所以這就是為什麼我們會繼續保持這種對今年下半年的看法。

Jakob Bluestone, BNP Paribas.

法國巴黎銀行的雅各布·布魯斯通（Jakob Bluestone）。

Great. I was just wondering if you could just expand on any tariff-related effects during the quarter, you previously guided for 100 basis points margin hit that what actually happened at -- can see a number. Were there any pull-ins. And I guess if you can give any commentary on what your expectation is for tariff-related effects in Q3 are?

偉大的。我只是想知道您是否可以詳細說明本季度與關稅相關的任何影響，您之前預測的利潤率衝擊為 100 個基點，但實際情況是——我們可以看到一個數字。有沒有任何吸引作用？我想您可以就您對第三季關稅相關影響的預期發表一下評論嗎？

When it comes to tariffs, starting with the pooling, as you remember, we had a bit of impact with some pull-ins and impacts on the product mix supporting the margin in Q1 there. This quarter has been more normal, you can say and as for the impact, we guided around 1 percentage-point. We came out around this 1 percentage-point a little a bit lower here in the quarter, and that is we expect similar levels going forward, given what we know today and as you know, there are quite some messaging around the tariffs. So we will see. But based on what we know today, this is where we stand.

說到關稅，首先從集中關稅開始，正如您記得的，我們對一些拉動和支持第一季利潤率的產品組合產生了一些影響。可以說，本季的情況比較正常，至於影響，我們預計約為 1 個百分點。本季度我們的稅率大約低了 1 個百分點，根據我們目前掌握的情況以及您知道的有關關稅的大量信息，我們預計未來稅率將保持類似的水平。我們將拭目以待。但根據我們今天所了解的情況，我們的立場就是這樣。

Fredrik Lithell, Handelsbanken.

弗雷德里克‧利塞爾 (Fredrik Lithell)，德國商業銀行。

Well, I was wondering if you could sort of describe a little bit more the trends in the North American market. We know since Q3 of 2024 that you started to ramp up one of your large clients there. And the question is how this sort of project looks and how -- if it's going to sort of ramp down gradually? Or if it is so that the other big clients in North America are mitigating part of that or something like that. Could you describe that a little bit would be interesting?

好吧，我想知道您是否可以更詳細地描述一下北美市場的趨勢。我們知道，自 2024 年第三季以來，您開始在那裡擴大您的一個大客戶。問題是，這類項目看起來如何，以及它是否會逐漸減少？或者北美的其他大客戶是否正在減輕部分影響或類似情況。你能稍微描述一下那會很有趣嗎？

All right. I got that one. As you might remember, we started seeing a ramp-up during Q2 last year. And then coming into Q3, it was coming up on a very high speed, so to say, at a high pace. And now coming this year, we are more on a stabilized good level.

好的。我得到了那個。您可能還記得，我們從去年第二季開始看到成長。然後進入 Q3，速度就非常快了，可以說，節奏很快。而到了今年，我們的水準已經比較穩定、良好了。

So the comps will be difficult -- more difficult coming in, of course, in the second half of the year. But overall, it's quite a good pace. And America and North America is not only one customers. They are free customers at least that is important, and they are all showing good investment levels here also going forward. That is what we see. I don't know if you want to add on the US market?

因此，下半年的競爭將會更加激烈——當然，競爭會更加激烈。但總體來說，這是一個相當不錯的節奏。而且美國和北美並不是唯一的客戶。至少他們是免費客戶，這一點很重要，而且他們都在未來表現出良好的投資水準。這就是我們所看到的。不知道您是否想補充美國市場？

Andrew Gardiner, Citi.

花旗銀行的安德魯‧加德納 (Andrew Gardiner)。

Another one on the Americas, if I could, just following up from that last answer, Lars. Can you give us a sense as to where you think the customers are. And I think across all three main customers there in terms of the inventory replenishment, you clearly had a significant drawdown impact sort of late '23 through most -- through the first half of '24 before, as you pointed out it the demand came back in the third quarter. Do you have a sense as to where their inventory levels are at the moment? Is there more to go?

如果可以的話，我再問一個關於美洲的問題，我只是接著上一個答案回答，拉爾斯。您能否告訴我們您認為客戶在哪裡？我認為，就庫存補充而言，對所有三個主要客戶而言，你們的庫存顯然在 2023 年末到 2024 年上半年受到了顯著的下降影響，正如你所指出的，需求在第三季度回升。您是否知道他們目前的庫存水準是多少？還有更多嗎？

Or are we back at a more normal level? And also in terms of the mix within the market, there's been a debate over, I suppose, to deployment versus swaps. Are you seeing the beginning of swap activity? Or is that something that we might start to see in future quarters? Just a bit of detail around that would help with the margin outlook.

或者我們已經恢復到更正常的水平？而且就市場組合而言，我認為關於部署與掉期一直存在爭議。您是否看到了掉期活動的開始？或者這是我們可能在未來幾季開始看到的事情？只要了解一些細節就能幫助我們了解利潤前景。

All right. Yeah. When it comes to inventory levels, I think among the different operators, they are fairly balanced as it looks now, they work a little bit different depending on which one, but based on how they operate, they seem to be fairly balanced. So that's good, you can say. And when it comes to the mix in the revenue base, we will see more of services coming in into and rollout activities into the revenue base coming forward here.

好的。是的。說到庫存水平，我認為在不同的運營商之間，現在看起來是相當平衡的，雖然它們的工作方式略有不同，但根據它們的運作方式，它們似乎是相當平衡的。您可能會說這很好。當涉及收入基礎的組合時，我們將看到更多的服務進入收入基礎並推出更多的活動。

So that is a bit of a difference that we will see, but as I also have said previously is that we will have -- there can be shifts in the margins between different quarters. But when we look at more the long-term view here, we see rather stable good development here for the -- looking into the full year.

所以，我們將會看到一些差異，但正如我之前所說的那樣，不同季度之間的利潤率可能會改變。但當我們從長遠角度來看時，我們會看到全年發展相當穩定且良好。

Understood. I mean, as you point out, the mix may be changing a bit, but your gross margin outlook is still steady sort of from 2Q?

明白了。我的意思是，正如您所指出的，產品組合可能會發生一些變化，但從第二季開始，您的毛利率前景仍然保持穩定？

Yeah. That's what we see. And then, of course, we are an industry which is very project based and the product mix has an impact. But given what we see now, this is the guidance we give. And I think that is what we expect.

是的。這就是我們所看到的。當然，我們是一個非常以專案為基礎的產業，產品組合具有影響力。但根據我們現在看到的情況，這是我們給予的指導。我認為這正是我們所期望的。

Andreas Joelsson, DNB Carnegie.

安德烈亞斯·喬爾森，DNB 卡內基。

A little bit more perhaps future-looking question and the comments that you made on 5G stand-alone and the investments you do in AI. Just curious how you see that perhaps impacting your business in terms of product mix? And also given that you have now as you said, never been in a better position when it comes to gross margin. How do you see this operational leverage going forward if we should see more stand-alone business or more AI-related orders from your customers?

或許這是一個更具未來性的問題，以及您對 5G 獨立技術以及在人工智慧領域的投資的評論。我只是好奇您認為這會對您的業務在產品組合方面產生什麼影響？而且正如您所說，現在您的毛利率處於前所未有的良好狀態。如果我們看到更多獨立業務或更多來自客戶的人工智慧相關訂單，您如何看待這種營運槓桿的未來發展？

If we start on the 5G assay, I think this is an important question, Andreas. And it's actually one of the key promises of 5G. We've been talking about the low latency, the high speed, the higher uplink, et cetera. All of that is in reality related to 5G assay. And 5G assay have so far had only limited deployments.

如果我們開始進行 5G 測試，我認為這是一個重要的問題，安德烈亞斯。這實際上是 5G 的關鍵承諾之一。我們一直在談論低延遲、高速度、更高的上行鏈路等等。所有這些實際上都與 5G 分析有關。而 5G 試驗迄今僅進行了有限的部署。

It's about one-fourth of the operators with any type of 5G assay network. And if you start to look at broad-based rollout, it's really one in the US, one in India. Of course, the Chinese, you have a couple of other countries with bigger, but it's in reality very limited rollout. It's two things that need to happen in the network. One is mid-band coverage, so prepare the radio network with mid-band.

約有四分之一的營運商已經部署了任何類型的 5G 測試網路。如果你開始關注廣泛的推廣，你會發現實際上一個在美國，一個在印度。當然，中國以及其他幾個國家也擁有更大的影響力，但實際上推廣範圍非常有限。網路中需要發生兩件事。一個是中頻覆蓋，所以要準備中頻的無線電網路。

As you know, that's still a very low build-out coverage in, for example, Europe. It's probably less than half pop coverage, 90%, 95% in the US, China, India. So Europe is clearly behind on that.

如您所知，在歐洲等地，建設覆蓋率仍然很低。普及率可能不到一半，美國、中國和印度的普及率分別為 90% 和 95%。因此歐洲在這方面明顯落後。

The second part is you need to upgrade the core. So that's another opportunity. And those two things will have to happen to take full advantage of the capabilities of the network. So what we're starting to see, and this is -- it's still -- of course, early. But we're starting to see new type of devices coming. Think about the AI glasses. If you're going to have that, you need ultra-low latency, you need guaranteed low latency and you need a very high uplink performance. So this is starting to drive the interest.

第二部分是您需要升級核心。所以這是另一個機會。必須實現這兩件事才能充分利用網路的功能。所以我們開始看到，這當然還太早。但我們開始看到新型設備的出現。想想人工智慧眼鏡。如果要實現這一點，您需要超低延遲，需要保證低延遲，並且需要非常高的上行鏈路效能。因此這開始引起人們的興趣。

We're also seeing a lot of, I call them network slicing opportunities. So for example, police force wants to connect all their police officers and put body cams on all of them. They need actually a 5Gs applies on the network. And that, we see one of the customers delivering that. We see, for example, for sporting events, selling networks like we guaranteed uplink.

我們還看到很多，我稱之為網路切片機會。例如，警察部隊希望將所有警員聯繫起來，並在所有警員身上安裝隨身攝影機。他們實際上需要 5G 網路應用。我們看到其中一位客戶實現了這一點。例如，我們看到，對於體育賽事，銷售網絡就像我們保證上行鏈路一樣。

And if you go to a concert today, you want to stream the show, you're actually going to run into congestion problems by buying a network slice, you can actually guarantee that you can upload your video while you're there for example,

如果你今天去聽一場音樂會，你想在線觀看演出，你實際上會遇到擁堵問題，通過購買網絡切片，你實際上可以保證你可以在那裡上傳視頻，例如，

Consumers are willing to pay for these things, and we start to see them happening. So I'm rather encouraged by the service innovation that's starting to happen on 5G assay. Are we there to point to big revenues for us? No. But we're starting to see that interest and that's going to drive need for more radio coverage, mid-band and core.

消費者願意為這些東西付錢，我們也開始看到這種情況發生。因此，我對 5G 測試中開始出現的服務創新感到非常鼓舞。我們在那裡是為了指出我們的巨額收入嗎？不。但我們開始看到這種興趣，這將推動對更多無線電覆蓋、中頻段和核心的需求。

Then the AI side, I think this is such a fundamental technology. It attack -- or kind of we interact with the technology in many different ways. So for example, if we start at the basics, we use AI, of course, as coding buddies, but we're also using it in other parts of internal operations to drive efficiency. We're going to see that happening, it's going to happen increasingly so.

然後是人工智慧方面，我認為這是一項基礎技術。它發動攻擊——或者說我們以多種不同的方式與科技互動。例如，如果我們從基礎開始，我們當然會使用人工智慧作為編碼夥伴，但我們也會在內部營運的其他部分使用它來提高效率。我們將會看到這種情況發生，而且這種情況會越來越多。

We see some benefits now, but that's going to come more. Then it impacts also how the network is actually operated. So think about fully autonomous intent-based networks, they will require AI as a fundamental component. That's one of the reasons why we invested in the AI factory. So by having the compute capability, we can actually now start to develop those type of networks that 5G network and future networks will be so complex and you will need to be able to create dynamic slices in there.

我們現在看到了一些好處，但未來還會有更多好處。它也會影響網路的實際運作方式。因此，考慮完全自主的基於意圖的網絡，它們將需要人工智慧作為基本組成部分。這就是我們投資AI工廠的原因之一。因此，透過擁有運算能力，我們現在實際上可以開始開發這些類型的網絡，5G 網路和未來的網路將非常複雜，您需要能夠在其中建立動態切片。

That will require fully autonomous networks. So we're convinced AI will be a fundamental part of that. And lastly, will be a driver of traffic because the -- today, all focus is on the LLMs and the compute and the data centers, that's all critically important. But another part of the stack is actually that applications we need to move to the edge. And when the applications move to the edge, they will need connectivity, and they will need wireless connectivity. And that's why we work with a number of the device vendors on how the demands on the network will look going forward.

這將需要完全自主的網路。因此，我們確信人工智慧將成為其中的一個基礎組成部分。最後，將成為流量的驅動因素，因為——今天，所有的焦點都集中在 LLM、計算和資料中心上，這些都至關重要。但堆疊的另一部分實際上是我們需要移動到邊緣的應用程式。當應用程式移動到邊緣時，它們將需要連接，並且需要無線連接。這就是為什麼我們與許多設備供應商合作，研究未來網路需求的原因。

I want to link that also to Aduna and Vonage actually. That's going to be one of the critical applications for Aduna and Vonage how you actually create that on-demand the network slice basically an API-based demand, you create a slice for your glasses when you lead ultra-low latency, for example.

實際上，我也想將其與 Aduna 和 Vonage 聯繫起來。這將是 Aduna 和 Vonage 的關鍵應用程式之一，您如何實際建立按需網路切片，基本上是基於 API 的需求，例如，當您實現超低延遲時，您可以為您的眼鏡建立一個切片。

So we see that quality of service also being interesting or increasingly important. That's why we now see the number of operators being signed up in Aduna and we cover a number of countries around the world, most recent Japan. So I think we're still very early in AI in -- and how applications are going to start running. But I think that it's actually going to be a key driver of our business going forward, both on traffic, on the way we operate networks and -- the way we run Ericsson.

因此，我們認為服務品質也變得越來越重要。這就是為什麼我們現在看到在阿杜納簽約的運營商數量如此之多，並且我們的業務覆蓋了全球多個國家，最近的一個是日本。所以我認為我們在人工智慧領域還處於非常早期的階段——以及應用程式將如何開始運行。但我認為這實際上將成為我們未來業務發展的關鍵驅動力，包括流量、網路運作方式以及愛立信的運作方式。

Simon Granath, ABG.

西蒙·格拉納斯（Simon Granath），ABG。

Thank you, Daniel, and good morning all. So now with the US market perhaps normalized? And as you highlighted in the report, the lower estimates suggest overall stable market. I had a question on what other areas you may boost your efforts in order to improve sales?

謝謝你，丹尼爾，大家早安。那麼現在美國市場可能已經正常化了嗎？正如您在報告中強調的那樣，較低的估計值表明整體市場穩定。我有一個問題，為了提高銷量，您還可以在哪些方面加大努力？

And in particular, I am curious on what you're seeing in defense and 5G for such areas because you do highlight the sense in your annual report but has not really talked too much about it recently. So, could this be a needle mover or what is needed for that to happen? And I think it also makes sense from a market share point of view that entities like NATO is unlikely to choose European operators with non-trusted rand supplier. So that could perhaps also benefit you? What are you seeing?

特別是，我很好奇您對國防和 5G 等領域的看法，因為您確實在年度報告中強調了這一點，但最近並沒有談論太多。那麼，這是否會成為推動因素或需要什麼才能實現這一目標？而且我認為從市場份額的角度來看，北約等實體不太可能選擇擁有不受信任的蘭特供應商的歐洲營運商，這也是有道理的。那麼這也許對你也有好處？你看到了什麼？

Yeah. I recall comment on that, we're doing a couple of things. First of all, I think the potential is actually substantial. And the reason for that is, of course, also defense benefits from connecting everything. And 5G is the way to connect all your equipment as well as sensors, et cetera.

是的。我記得對此的評論，我們正在做幾件事。首先，我認為潛力實際上是巨大的。當然，原因還在於，將所有事物連結起來，可以為防禦帶來好處。5G 是連接所有設備以及感測器等的方式。

So I think there is -- there is a big opportunity here for 5G technology also in defense. We see that in discussions that we're having with -- in a couple of countries around the world, we launched last year, and I think that's what you referred to EFTG. It's Ericsson Federal Technology Group in the US. That is a specific entity to work with the Department of Defense in the US.

所以我認為 5G 技術在國防領域也有很大的機會。我們在與全球幾個國家的討論中看到了這一點——我們去年推出了這項服務，我認為這就是您提到的 EFTG。它就是美國愛立信聯邦技術集團。這是一個與美國國防部合作的特定實體。

Still, the -- I will say the revenues are small on those applications, but I actually think it's a good growth opportunity for us for the future. It's realistic to say that a large part of the increased defense spending in Europe, most likely will be allocated to connectivity because that is a critical part of modern defense force. So I think this is a very good opportunity for Western vendors like you noted, because I think that, that will be far-fetched to think that we go with high-risk vendors. That's one part of the defense, right? That's a pure defense applications selling to Department of Defense.

儘管如此，我要說的是，這些應用程式的收入很小，但我實際上認為這對我們未來來說是一個很好的成長機會。可以現實地說，歐洲增加的國防開支的很大一部分很可能會用於連結性，因為這是現代國防力量的關鍵部分。所以我認為這對西方供應商來說是一個非常好的機會，正如您所說，因為我認為，與高風險供應商合作的想法是牽強的。這是防禦的一部分，對嗎？這是向國防部出售的純國防應用程式。

I think that's an important part. But I would also highlight another area that I think has a major opportunity is mission-critical. So far, many countries around the world have very old connectivity -- the networks for police officers, first responders in general. We're seeing an increasing interest here in building out that coverage. And we are in big -- in many discussions around the world with countries of building out those type of new mission-critical applications. I think that's going to be a substantial portion I will say sales cycle there. We may say it's long on the CSPs.

我認為這是一個重要的部分。但我還要強調另一個我認為有重大機會的領域，那就是任務關鍵型領域。到目前為止，世界上許多國家的網路連線都很老舊——一般是警察網路和急救人員的網路。我們看到，人們對擴大這一覆蓋範圍的興趣日益濃厚。我們正在與世界各地的許多國家進行大規模討論，探討如何建立此類新的關鍵任務應用程式。我認為這將是銷售週期中相當重要的一部分。我們可能會說它在 CSP 上很長。

But the reality is the mission critical is typically a longer sales cycle. So as we land contracts there, we will, of course, disclose and talk more about it. But I think this is rather a big opportunity and again, think about the real-time applications, the safety you can provide for firefighters being connected all the time when they're in a building or police officers having real-time connectivity with body cameras on. These are changing the way you operate first responders, and that's the interest we're seeing. So I'm actually -- I think this is a big growth opportunity that will be net additive to the market that we don't have today.

但現實情況是，關鍵任務通常需要更長的銷售週期。因此，當我們在那裡簽訂合約時，我們當然會披露和談論更多有關它的資訊。但我認為這是一個相當大的機會，再想想即時應用，你可以為消防員在建築物內時始終保持連接或為警察提供即時連接並開啟隨身攝影機的安全。這些正在改變您操作急救人員的方式，這就是我們所看到的興趣。因此，我認為這是一個巨大的成長機會，它將為市場帶來目前所沒有的淨增量。

Ulrich Rathe, Bernstein.

烏爾里希·拉特，伯恩斯坦。

Just come back to Jakob's question on tariffs. I'm interested learning more about what concrete measures you are doing at the moment in terms of mitigation. Is this essentially sort of low-hanging fruit at this point because the uncertainty is so high, and you're not quite sure whether you want to realign your supply chains given the tariff situation hasn't settled yet and you're more or less waiting before you take far-reaching decisions?

回到雅各布關於關稅的問題。我有興趣進一步了解您目前在緩解方面採取的具體措施。由於不確定性太高，這是否本質上是一種唾手可得的成果？鑑於關稅情況尚未解決，您不太確定是否要重新調整供應鏈，而您在做出深遠決定之前或多或少還在等待？

Or are you already on the drawing board to really realign your supply chain for the kind of tariff changes that we don't know exactly, but we know the directionally. So I'd just like to know where your state of thinking is what -- actions you have already taken on what actions you will soon take?

或者您是否已經在規劃重新調整您的供應鏈，以適應我們尚不明確但大致了解方向的關稅變化。所以我只是想了解一下您的思考狀態是怎樣的——您已經採取了什麼行動，即將採取什麼行動？

Well, I think when it comes to that, as you say, it is very much surround the supply chain and the sourcing. And what we have not made any firm decisions given the uncertainty in what's actually going to happen. So, but we are preparing to see how can we move and that work started already lost during last year at the end, looking at what opportunities do we have and how can we ramp up and ramp down in different parts of the world where we have production. So that is prepared. And then, but going into implementation, smaller changes we can do in the current structure.

嗯，我認為，正如你所說，這主要圍繞著供應鏈和採購。由於不確定實際情況，我們尚未做出任何明確的決定。所以，但我們正在準備看看我們如何能行動起來，而去年年底開始的工作就已經失敗了，看看我們有什麼機會，以及我們如何在世界不同地區擴大和縮小生產規模。那就準備好了。然後，進入實施階段，我們可以在目前結構中做一些較小的改變。

And then if there are investment decisions needed that we will see depending on what kind of decisions are coming out finally at the end here. So I think that is the balance act that we're working on. So yes, preparing, but not any big investment decisions taken.

然後，如果需要投資決策，我們將根據最終做出的決策類型來判斷。所以我認為這就是我們正在努力實現的平衡。所以是的，我們正在做準備，但還沒有做出任何重大的投資決策。

And I would only add, as you know, we already built a factory in the US, came online about 2020. So it's in the making. We kind of saw this coming in during the first Trump administration. So, we built that factory and that's fully operational now gives us much more flexibility. So we are, in that sense, we've been trying to manage the impact with the manufacturing footprint that we have anything more. We need to look at how the tariffs eventually will shape up.

我只想補充一點，如你所知，我們已經在美國建造了一家工廠，大約在 2020 年投入使用。所以它正在製作中。我們在川普第一屆政府時期就預見了這種情況。因此，我們建造了這家工廠，現在它已全面投入運營，這為我們提供了更大的靈活性。因此，從這個意義上來說，我們一直在努力管理製造足跡帶來的影響。我們需要看看關稅最終會如何形成。

Felix Henriksson, Nordea.

菲利克斯·亨利克森（Felix Henriksson），北歐聯合銀行（Nordea）。

I have a question on your confidence in your ability to gain market share because if we real a few years back into your latest Capital Markets Day, I think you stated that the networks you're targeting to gained 1 percentage-point per year of additional market share and now you stay with the AT&T deal, taking considerable steps forward in that operation within the North American market range. But looking ahead, what is the region where you have the highest conviction on that Ericsson can gain further market share in the rent market going forward?

我對您對於獲得市場份額的能力的信心有一個疑問，因為如果我們回顧幾年前您最近的資本市場日，我想您曾說過，您所瞄準的網絡每年獲得 1 個百分點的額外市場份額，現在您繼續與 AT&T 合作，在北美市場範圍內的運營中邁出了重要的一步。但展望未來，您最有信心愛立信未來可以在哪個地區的租賃市場中進一步獲得市場份額？

Yeah. A few years back, we were all talking about high-risk vendors in Europe, right? I think that as it looks right now, that's not an opportunity. I think we need to be honest about that. And that's the way I look at it.

是的。幾年前，我們都在談論歐洲的高風險供應商，對嗎？我認為就目前的情況來看，這不是一個機會。我認為我們需要誠實地對待這一點。這就是我的看法。

So we look at the world in a way, having a few big home markets, whatever you want to call it, but kind of markets where we really need to be strong Clearly, the US, clearly, India, clearly, Japan, right? Then you can add some more like the UK, Australia, et cetera. . But we are investing quite substantially to make sure that we are in a very strong position in those markets. And that's why you should see the investments in the R&D center in Japan, for example, as a way to create that local presence that allow us to have a stronger market position.

因此，我們從某種角度看待世界，擁有幾個大的國內市場，無論你想怎麼稱呼它，但我們真正需要強大的市場顯然是美國，顯然是印度，顯然是日本，對吧？然後您可以添加更多，例如英國、澳洲等等。。但我們正在投入大量資金以確保我們在這些市場中佔據非常強勢的地位。這就是為什麼你應該把對日本研發中心的投資視為一種創造在地影響力的方式，讓我們擁有更強大的市場地位。

That's what we have done in the US. We built a manufacturing site there. We established R&D there. We have done in India. As you know, we have manufacturing there. We have our big -- maybe it's the biggest country for us from an employment point of view. It's not the biggest on R&D, but we have a substantial R&D presence. Now we're doing the same thing in Japan. So I'm quite confident we can strengthen our position in those other two markets. We're already very strong in North America, but we can do more in India and Japan. We see those as critically important for the long-term success

這就是我們在美國所做的。我們在那裡建了一個製造基地。我們在那裡建立了研發中心。我們在印度已經做到了。如您所知，我們在那裡進行製造。我們有一個大國家──從就業的角度來看，這也許是我們最大的國家。雖然我們的研發規模不是最大的，但我們的研發實力相當雄厚。現在我們在日本做同樣的事情。因此，我非常有信心我們可以鞏固我們在其他兩個市場的地位。我們在北美已經非常強大，但我們可以在印度和日本做得更好。我們認為這些對於長期成功至關重要

Sami Sarkamies, Danske Bank.

丹麥銀行的薩米·薩卡米斯（Sami Sarkamies）。

Can you elaborate on the strong results at cloud software and services, you had almost 10% EBITA margin in the second quarter, would you say a reasonable assumption on the underlying level going forward. And then maybe also if you can update us on the IPR run rate following the Lenovo settlement.

您能否詳細說明雲端軟體和服務的強勁業績，第二季的 EBITA 利潤率接近 10%，您是否對未來的基本水準做出了合理的假設。然後，也許您也可以向我們介紹聯想和解後智慧財產權的運作率。

If I start with the IPR run rate coming out of the quarter here, we are at SEK13 billion. So that is where we are on the run rate coming out of the quarter. And then when we come to Cloud Software and Services, as you highlighted there, it is a very strong margin coming out in the second quarter here, supported by and a very good product mix with a high software share. But having said that, it's also the continuous improvement that we have seen for quite some quarters in Cloud Software and Services. So that underlying trend that we have seen, if you go back a couple of quarters, that is what to expect going forward and aiming at the double-digit EBITA margin here in the midterm, that is still there for sure.

如果我從本季的 IPR 運行率開始，我們的運行率是 130 億瑞典克朗。這就是我們本季的運行率。然後，當我們談到雲端軟體和服務時，正如您所強調的那樣，第二季的利潤率非常高，這要歸功於非常好的產品組合和很高的軟體份額。但話雖如此，我們也看到雲端軟體和服務在相當長的時間內不斷取得進步。因此，如果回顧幾個季度，我們會發現，我們預期未來會出現這種潛在趨勢，我們的目標是在中期實現兩位數的 EBITA 利潤率，這種趨勢肯定還會存在。

I would only add there saying when we put in place the turnaround plan for BCSS. It had a couple of components, right? One was increase the software share, commercial discipline and take costs out. And I would say the combination of those three that actually drive the result today. Of course, we got helped in Q2 by the IPR, but you should look at that underlying as kind of the trend is actually continuing.

我只想補充一點，當我們為 BCSS 制定扭虧為盈計劃時。它有幾個組件，對嗎？一是增加軟體份額、商業紀律並降低成本。我想說，這三者的結合實際上推動了今天的結果。當然，我們在第二季度得到了 IPR 的幫助，但你應該把這種趨勢視為持續的趨勢。

Can I add one thing on the IPR? And we may not talk enough about it. Most of the settlement, it's kind of divided in two parts. One is a settlement now and then a future arbitration. So the run rate will be more impacted by the arbitration than by the historic settlement. But where that ends up, we'll have a view, but we'll see where it ends up.

我可以在 IPR 上添加一點內容嗎？我們可能對此討論得還不夠。大部分定居點被分成兩部分。一是現在的和解，二是未來的仲裁。因此，仲裁對運行率的影響將大於歷史和解的影響。但最終結果如何，我們有一個看法，但我們會看看它最終會如何。

That concludes the Q&A session for today. So with that, thanks for joining us, everybody, and thanks for your time today. Thank you.

今天的問答環節到此結束。因此，感謝大家加入我們，感謝你們今天抽出時間。謝謝。

Thanks, everyone.

謝謝大家。

Thank you.

謝謝。