Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson (ERIC) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the presentation of Ericsson's third quarter 2025 results. Joining us by video today is Börje Ekholm, our President and CEO; and in the studio, I'm joined by Lars Sandstrom, our Chief Financial Officer. As usual, we'll have a short presentation followed by Q&A. And in order to ask a question, you'll need to join the conference by phone. Details can be found in today's earnings release and on the Investor Relations website.

大家好，歡迎參加愛立信2025年第三季業績發表會。今天透過視訊連線的是我們的總裁兼執行長 Börje Ekholm；在攝影棚裡，我的搭檔是我們的財務長 Lars Sandstrom。照例，我們會先做一個簡短的介紹，然後是問答環節。如需提問，您需要透過電話加入會議。詳情請見今日發布的獲利報告和投資者關係網站。

Please be advised that today's call is being recorded and that today's presentation may include forward-looking statements. These statements are based on our current expectations and certain planning assumptions, which are subject to risks and uncertainties.

請注意，今天的電話會議正在錄音，並且今天的演示可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些聲明是基於我們目前的預期和某些規劃假設，但這些預期和假設存在風險和不確定性。

Actual results may differ materially due to factors mentioned in today's press release and discussed in the conference call. We encourage you to read about these risks and uncertainties in our earnings report as well as in the Annual Report.

由於今天新聞稿中提到的以及電話會議中討論的因素，實際結果可能與此有重大差異。我們建議您閱讀我們的獲利報告和年度報告，以了解這些風險和不確定性。

I'll now hand the call over to Börje and Lars for their introductory comments.

現在我會把電話交給 Börje 和 Lars，請他們做開場白。

Thanks, Daniel, and good morning, everyone, and a big thank you for joining us today. So we delivered a strong Q3 with continued expansion in our EBITA margin despite the FX headwinds. I would say that reflects our execution against both operational and strategic priorities over the last couple of years. We're optimistic about the growing demand for advanced mobile connectivity as AI is starting to be rolled out.

謝謝丹尼爾，大家早安，非常感謝大家今天收看我們的節目。儘管面臨外匯逆風，我們第三季業績強勁，息稅前利潤率持續成長。我認為這反映了我們過去幾年在營運和策略重點方面的執行情況。隨著人工智慧的逐步推廣，我們對先進行動連線的需求成長持樂觀態度。

By structurally improving our cost base, we have positioned Ericsson to deliver resilient margins also in the current market backdrop, which will give further benefits from improving operating leverage when growth comes back and actually comes in reality.

透過結構性地改善成本基礎，我們使愛立信即使在當前的市場環境下也能保持穩定的利潤率，這將在成長恢復並真正到來時，透過提高營運槓桿帶來更多益處。

Beyond operational improvements, of course, we focus on technology innovation, and that positions us well for the next key driver of our industry, the broader adoption of AI. As AI workloads move to the edge, demand on the network will increase significantly. These AI applications and AI devices will require wireless technology by placing -- but it will also place new demands on the connectivity, such as ultra-low latency, high dependability, guaranteed uplink and very high security demands.

當然，除了營運改善之外，我們還專注於技術創新，這使我們能夠更好地應對產業下一個關鍵驅動因素——人工智慧的更廣泛應用。隨著人工智慧工作負載向邊緣轉移，網路需求將顯著增加。這些人工智慧應用和人工智慧設備需要無線技術來部署——但這同時也對連接性提出了新的要求，例如超低延遲、高可靠性、有保障的上行鏈路和非常高的安全性要求。

So best effort connectivity. Think of that as WiFi, 4G and 5G non-standalone will simply not be enough. So to cater to these new type of demands, operators will need to invest in and migrate to 5G stand-alone networks and later, of course, migrate into 6G. Their success here will depend on high-performing programmable networks and here, Ericsson is a leader.

因此，只能盡力保持連線。可以這樣理解：WiFi、4G 和 5G 非獨立網路模式將遠遠不夠用。因此，為了滿足這些新型需求，營運商需要投資並遷移到 5G 獨立組網，當然，之後還要遷移到 6G。他們能否成功取決於高效能可程式網絡，而愛立信正是這方面的領導者。

And we're also seeing some front-runner operators now starting to realize new monetization opportunities of network slices as well as efforts to provide differentiated connectivity to different segments and different type of applications.

我們也看到一些領先的營運商開始意識到網路切片帶來的新的獲利機會，並努力為不同的細分市場和不同類型的應用提供差異化的連結。

So now let me move on to some key financial and strategic takeaways before Lars dives into the numbers. So organic sales declined by 2%, but we saw growth in three out of four market areas with only the Americas reporting reduced sales following a particularly strong deliveries in Q3 last year.

那麼現在讓我先談談一些關鍵的財務和策略要點，然後再讓 Lars 深入分析具體數字。因此，有機銷售額下降了 2%，但我們在四個市場區域中的三個地區看到了成長，只有美洲地區的銷售額有所下降，這是由於去年第三季交付量特別強勁。

FX continues to be a headwind, and we had a negative year-over-year impact of SEK4.2 billion this quarter. As mentioned, we saw positive development in our margins. Gross margin came in at 48.1%, and we delivered another three-year high EBITA margin of 14.7%, excluding the capital gain from the iconectiv sale, and this is now starting to approach our long-term target.

外匯波動持續構成不利因素，本季較去年同期造成 42 億瑞典克朗的負面影響。如前所述，我們的利潤率出現了正面成長。毛利率達到 48.1%，息稅前利潤率 (EBITA) 達到 14.7%，創三年新高（不包括出售 iconectiv 的資本利得），目前已開始接近我們的長期目標。

The margin expansion reflects actions we've taken over the last years to increase operational excellence and efficiency, including the work we've done on our cost base. Over the last year, we've reduced our headcount by some 6,000, leveraging new ways of working, and that, of course, includes AI.

利潤率的提升反映了我們過去幾年為提高營運卓越性和效率而採取的行動，包括我們在成本基礎方面所做的工作。過去一年，我們透過採用新的工作方式（當然，其中也包括人工智慧），減少了約 6,000 名員工。

As we plan for a flattish market also going forward, we will continue our cost measures on levels similar to what we've done in the past years. The effect of actions we have taken over the past years are now kind of flowing through the P&L and establishing the profitability at the new level. Our continued focus on cost management will provide incremental benefits going forward, but it will also give operating leverage should the market improve.

鑑於我們預計未來市場將保持平穩，我們將繼續採取與過去幾年類似的成本控制措施。過去幾年我們採取的行動的效果現在正逐漸體現在損益表中，並將獲利能力提升到了一個新的水平。我們持續專注於成本管理，這將在未來帶來逐步的效益，如果市場好轉，也將帶來營運槓桿效應。

We ended the quarter with an elevated cash position, that's driven by strong recurring cash flow, but also, of course, the iconectiv sale. As a result, we see scope for increased shareholder returns through extra dividends and/or share buyback program. And the Board will revert with the proposal in time for the AGM, as you know, is the practice or is the Swedish governance model.

本季末，我們的現金狀況良好，這得益於強勁的經常性現金流，當然也得益於 iconectiv 的出售。因此，我們認為可以透過額外派發股利和/或股票回購計畫來提高股東報酬。董事會將在股東大會召開前及時提交提案，如您所知，這是瑞典的慣例或治理模式。

In parallel with strengthening the company operationally, we're continuing to execute on our strategy to capture a bigger share of the value created by connectivity. So let me expand that a bit further.

在加強公司營運的同時，我們也持續執行我們的策略，以獲取互聯互通創造的更大價值份額。讓我再詳細解釋一下。

In our core mobile infrastructure business, we signed new customer agreements in the strategically important Japanese market following our recent R&D investments. With Japan being one of the countries with a strong industrial base in such areas as automation and one of the densest networks that have still not built out 5G coverage, we see this as a key market going forward.

在我們的核心行動基礎設施業務中，繼近期研發投入之後，我們在具有重要戰略意義的日本市場簽署了新的客戶協議。日本是自動化等領域擁有強大工業基礎的國家之一，也是尚未建成 5G 網路覆蓋的地區之一，我們認為這是一個重要的未來市場。

We also increased our share in the UK with an eight-year partnership with VodafoneThree to supply a significant majority of the mobile networks and the entire core network. And this morning, we announced a five-year strategic agreement with Vodafone in Europe for programmable networks, where we remain their primary vendor with more or less stable market share.

我們還與 VodafoneThree 建立了為期八年的合作夥伴關係，從而提高了我們在英國的市場份額，為該地區提供絕大部分行動網路和整個核心網路。今天上午，我們宣布與沃達豐在歐洲達成一項為期五年的可編程網路戰略協議，我們仍然是他們的主要供應商，市場份額相對穩定。

Within the telco market, new monetization opportunities are needed to drive more network investments by our customers. So we continue to execute on our strategy to create new use cases for mobile networks. For example, we're seeing good development in fixed wireless access where customer satisfaction is typically higher than for fiber due to the ease of use of cellular or wireless technology.

在電信市場中，我們需要新的獲利機會來推動客戶增加網路投資。因此，我們將繼續執行我們的策略，為行動網路創造新的應用場景。例如，我們看到固定無線存取領域發展良好，由於蜂窩或無線技術的易用性，客戶滿意度通常高於光纖接入。

In the quarter, we announced a contract with Bharti Airtel to support their fixed wireless access rollout with Ericsson's core network portfolio. And we're starting to see good traction in mission-critical including, of course, defense.

本季度，我們宣布與 Bharti Airtel 簽訂合同，並利用愛立信的核心網路產品組合支援其固定無線接入部署。我們開始看到在關鍵任務領域（當然也包括國防領域）取得了良好的進展。

We're also taking important steps in our strategy to create a market by exposing the capabilities of the networks through APIs. This remains one of the key opportunities for us to capture more of the value created on top of the networks.

我們也透過 API 公開網路功能，從而在創造市場的策略中採取了重要步驟。這仍然是我們獲取更多網路創造價值的關鍵機會之一。

And as you know, Aduna, our JV with the large operators for network APIs closed this past quarter. Revenues are still small, but we see the uptake in Vonage API business is actually starting to come through. And we see that in areas such as fraud protection as an early use case but also in industrial applications. And today, we have already applications live in the market. Also in Vonage, we're expanding our ecosystem partnerships with AWS and added marketplace presence and product integration.

如您所知，我們與大型網路 API 營運商成立的合資企業 Aduna 已於上個季度關閉。雖然收入仍然很小，但我們看到 Vonage API 業務的成長勢頭確實開始顯現。我們看到，在詐欺防護等領域，以及工業應用中，都出現了這種情況。如今，我們已經有應用產品上線銷售。此外，Vonage 正在擴大與 AWS 的生態系統合作夥伴關係，並增加了市場覆蓋範圍和產品整合。

So now let me comment a bit further on the market development we saw in Q3. In market area Americas, sales declined by 8% year-over-year with declines both in North and Latin America. This follows, of course, a very strong Q3 deliveries in 2024, where we had high deliveries to a number of large customers. Latin America continues to be a competitive market with overall low investment levels.

現在讓我再就第三季的市場發展做一些補充說明。在美洲市場區域，銷售額年減 8%，北美和拉丁美洲的銷售額均下滑。當然，這得益於 2024 年第三季強勁的交付業績，我們向許多大客戶交付了大量產品。拉丁美洲市場競爭依然激烈，整體投資水準較低。

Sales in Europe, Middle East and Africa grew by 3% year-over-year. But if we look closer at the region, we saw a very strong development in Africa, partly driven by new 5G launches in Egypt and Morocco. In both the Middle East and in Europe, sales declined, and we continue to see European customers being cautious with investments.

歐洲、中東和非洲的銷售額較去年同期成長 3%。但如果我們仔細觀察該地區，就會發現非洲發展勢頭非常強勁，部分原因是埃及和摩洛哥新推出的 5G 網路。中東和歐洲的銷售額均有所下降，我們繼續看到歐洲客戶在投資方面保持謹慎。

In Southeast Asia, Oceania and India sales increased by 1% year-over-year, and India continues to have rather low investment levels but it actually grew quarter-over-quarter. We saw a decline in networks, partly due to the low level of network investments in India but also stiff competition in Southeast Asia. Cloud software and service, on the other hand, saw an increase in sales.

在東南亞、大洋洲和印度，銷售額年增 1%，印度的投資水準仍然較低，但實際上較上季成長。我們看到網路規模有所下降，部分原因是印度的網路投資水準較低，但也與東南亞的激烈競爭有關。另一方面，雲端軟體和服務銷售額有所成長。

Lastly, sales in Northeast Asia increased by 10%. That was due to higher network investments and deliveries in Japan. In the quarter, we were awarded new agreements with customers in the Japanese market, including enhancement of Softbank's 5G SA network where we have clearly increased our market share. Overall, I would say that we continue to have good discussions with all our customers in Japan.

最後，東北亞地區的銷售額成長了10%。這是由於日本的網路投資和交付量較高所致。本季度，我們與日本市場的客戶簽訂了新的協議，包括增強軟銀的 5G SA 網絡，我們在該領域的市佔率大幅提高。總的來說，我認為我們與日本的所有客戶都保持著良好的溝通。

With that, I hand over to Lars to go through the financials in more detail.

接下來，我把麥克風交給 Lars，讓他更詳細分析財務狀況。

All right. Thank you. So net sales in Q3 totaled SEK56.2 billion, with organic sales declining 2% year-on-year. Most regions grew, but North America declined, mainly reflecting tougher comparisons with a high period of customer investments last year. At the same time, reported sales decreased by 9%, impacted by a negative currency effect of SEK4.2 billion.

好的。謝謝。因此，第三季淨銷售額總計 562 億瑞典克朗，有機銷售額年減 2%。大多數地區都實現了成長，但北美地區卻出現了下滑，這主要反映出與去年客戶投資額較高的時期相比，今年的基數更大。同時，受 42 億瑞典克朗的匯率負面影響，報告銷售額下降了 9%。

Taking a look at IPR performance. Revenue declined by SEK0.4 billion year-over-year, now standing at SEK3.1 billion for Q3. It's worth noting that last year's quarter included retroactive revenue so that skews the comparison slightly. The run rate coming out of Q3 is still around SEK13 billion. In Q3, adjusted gross income was SEK27 billion, including a currency headwind of around SEK2 billion.

考察知識產權表現。第三季營收年減 0.4 億瑞典克朗，目前為 3.1 億瑞典克朗。值得注意的是，去年同期的數據包含了追溯性收入，因此比較結果略有偏差。第三季末的營收成長率仍在130億瑞典克朗左右。第三季調整後毛收入為 270 億瑞典克朗，其中包括約 20 億瑞典克朗的匯率不利影響。

We saw an improvement in our adjusted gross margin, reaching 48.1%. And this positive development is a result of our cost reduction measures and operational excellence in both Networks and Cloud Software and Services.

我們的調整後毛利率有所提高，達到 48.1%。這項積極進展得益於我們在網路和雲端軟體及服務方面採取的成本削減措施和卓越營運。

Looking at gross margin sequentially, we held stable even though we lost a temporary boost from the Q2 IPR settlement. Excluding IPR, the improvement was around 2 percentage points. In Networks, this benefited from organizational effectiveness in the market areas with well-planned and executed service delivery. This helped also manage supply effectively and further optimize inventory. And in Cloud Software and Services, the improvement is mainly coming from Services, where we are continuously improving our delivery performance.

從季度環比來看，儘管我們失去了第二季知識產權結算帶來的暫時成長，但毛利率仍保持穩定。不計智慧財產權，改善幅度約 2 個百分點。在網路領域，這得益於市場領域的組織效率，以及精心策劃和執行的服務交付。這也有助於有效管理供應並進一步優化庫存。在雲端軟體和服務方面，改進主要來自服務，我們一直在不斷提高服務交付效能。

On the cost side, we made steady progress. Operating expenses, excluding restructuring charges, dropped to SEK19.3 billion, around SEK2 billion lower year-over-year. Of this, about half came from our cost initiatives and the rest is mainly currency. Excluding the iconectiv gain, adjusted EBITA came in at SEK8.2 billion, up by SEK0.4 billion, including a negative currency impact of SEK1.2 billion. The EBITA margin was up around 2 percentage points to 14.7%.

在成本方面，我們取得了穩定進展。不包括重組費用，營運支出降至 193 億瑞典克朗，比去年同期減少約 20 億瑞典克朗。其中約一半來自我們的成本控制措施，其餘部分主要是資金。剔除 iconectiv 的收益後，調整後的 EBITA 為 82 億瑞典克朗，成長 4 億瑞典克朗，其中包括 12 億瑞典克朗的負面匯率影響。EBITA 利潤率上升約 2 個百分點，達到 14.7%。

Behind this improvement is the good progress we have seen in terms of optimizing operations and lowering our operating expenses. Cash flow before M&A was SEK6.6 billion, driven by earnings with net operating assets broadly stable.

這項改進的背後，是我們在優化營運和降低營運成本方面取得的良好進展。併購前的現金流為 66 億瑞典克朗，主要得益於獲利，淨經營資產基本上保持穩定。

Let's move to the segments. In Networks, sales decreased by 11% year-over-year to SEK35.4 billion with a negative currency impact of SEK2.8 billion. Organic sales decreased by 5%. We saw organic growth in market area Northeast Asia, driven largely by Japan, which Börje already mentioned. Europe, Middle East and Africa also grew, driven by Africa.

接下來我們來看各個部分。網路業務銷售額較去年同期下降 11% 至 354 億瑞典克朗，匯率波動造成 28 億瑞典克朗的負面影響。有機產品銷售額下降了5%。我們看到東北亞市場區域實現了有機成長，這主要得益於日本市場，Börje 已經提到過這一點。歐洲、中東和非洲也實現了成長，其中非洲是成長的主要驅動力。

Sales declined in market area Americas and in Southeast Asia and India. Networks adjusted gross margin increased to 50.1%, benefiting from cost reduction actions and operational efficiencies despite change in the market and product mix.

美洲市場、東南亞和印度市場的銷售額均有所下降。儘管市場和產品組合發生了變化，但得益於成本削減措施和營運效率的提高，網路業務的調整後毛利率增長至 50.1%。

Looking at the right-hand graph, the rolling four quarters adjusted gross margin reached 49.9% and stabilized at the new level. Adjusted EBITA in Networks decreased by SEK0.9 billion to SEK7.2 billion, including a negative currency impact of SEK1.1 billion. EBITA margin of 20.3% remained stable compared to last year.

從右側圖表可以看出，滾動四個季度的調整後毛利率達到 49.9%，並穩定在新水平。網路業務調整後息稅前利潤減少9億瑞典克朗至72億瑞典克朗，其中包括11億瑞典克朗的匯率負面影響。利潤率維持在20.3%，與去年相比保持穩定。

Then moving to Cloud Software & Services. Sales increased by 3% year-over-year to SEK15.3 billion, which includes a negative currency impact of SEK0.9 billion. So organically, sales grew by 9%, mostly driven by higher core sales across all market areas. Sales growth was helped sequentially by a softer Q2 as well. Adjusted gross margin came in very strong in the quarter at 43.6%, an improvement of 5 percentage points compared to last year. This was a result of the continued focus on automation, efficiency, commercial discipline and delivery performance.

然後轉向雲端軟體和服務。銷售額年增 3% 至 153 億瑞典克朗，其中包括 9 億瑞典克朗的負面匯率影響。因此，銷售額自然成長了 9%，這主要得益於所有市場領域核心銷售額的成長。第二季銷售疲軟也對銷售季成長起到了促進作用。本季調整後毛利率表現強勁，達 43.6%，比去年同期提高了 5 個百分點。這是持續關注自動化、效率、商業紀律和交付績效的結果。

And looking at the right-hand graph, the rolling four quarters adjusted gross margin reached 41.3%, a new high level. Adjusted EBITA increased to SEK1.9 billion with a margin of 12.5%, supported by higher gross income, lower operating expenses and the effective implementation of our strategic initiatives, including AI and automation investments and our commercial discipline.

從右側圖表可以看出，過去四個季度的調整後毛利率達到 41.3%，創歷史新高。經過調整後的 EBITA 增至 19 億瑞典克朗，利潤率為 12.5%，這得益於更高的毛收入、更低的營運費用以及我們戰略舉措的有效實施，包括人工智慧和自動化投資以及我們的商業紀律。

In Enterprise, sales decreased by 20% impacted by divestments in currency. So organic sales were down by 7%. Global Communications platform declined by 9%, reflecting the decision to scale back activity in some countries last year. The financial impact of this is now largely behind us, so we expect Enterprise sales to stabilize on an organic basis in Q4. Adjusted gross margin declined to 51.6% driven by the iconectiv divestment.

企業業務方面，受資產剝離（以美元計價）的影響，銷售額下降了 20%。因此，有機產品的銷售額下降了7%。全球通訊平台下降了 9%，反映出去年決定縮減在一些國家的業務活動。這件事的財務影響現在基本上已經過去，因此我們預計企業銷售額將在第四季度實現有機成長並趨於穩定。受 iconectiv 出售的影響，調整後毛利率下降至 51.6%。

Margins improved in both global communication platform and enterprise wireless solutions. Taking out the contribution from Aduna and iconectiv, which were divested in the quarter, adjusted EBITA landed at minus SEK1.1 billion.

全球通訊平台和企業無線解決方案的利潤率均有所提高。剔除本季剝離的 Aduna 和 iconectiv 的貢獻後，調整後的 EBITA 為負 11 億瑞典克朗。

Turning to free cash flow, which was SEK6.6 billion before M&A, a decline from SEK12.9 billion in Q3 2024. So last year, our cash flow received a boost from a reduction of operating working capital driven by the completion of large-scale rollout projects and lower inventories.

再來看自由現金流，在併購前為 66 億瑞典克朗，低於 2024 年第三季的 129 億瑞典克朗。因此，去年，由於大規模推廣項目的完成和庫存的減少，我們的營運資金減少，現金流得到了提振。

Operating cash flow was SEK7.9 billion in the third quarter this year, driven by earnings with net operating fairly stable. Net cash increased by SEK15.8 billion compared to last year, of which around SEK10 billion was from M&A. Net cash has now reached SEK51.9 billion.

今年第三季經營現金流為79億瑞典克朗，主要得益於獲利，淨經營現金流相當穩定。與去年相比，淨現金增加了 158 億瑞典克朗，其中約 100 億瑞典克朗來自併購。淨現金現已達519億瑞典克朗。

Next, I will cover the outlook. The outlook assumes stable exchange rates and no changes in tariffs. For Networks and Cloud Software and Services, we expect Q4 sales growth to be broadly similar to the three-year average quarter-on-quarter seasonality. And as mentioned before, we expect Enterprise sales to stabilize year-over-year on an organic basis.

接下來，我將談談前景。此展望是基於匯率穩定和關稅不變的假設。對於網路和雲端軟體及服務，我們預計第四季度的銷售成長將與過去三年的平均季度季比季節性大致相似。如同先前所提到的，我們預期企業銷售額將在自然成長的基礎上逐年保持穩定。

Next, then gross -- Networks gross margin. We expect Networks adjusted gross margin to be in the range of 49% to 51% for Q4. Restructuring charges for 2025 are expected to remain at an elevated level and with a flat RAN market, cost out remains an important lever also for next year.

接下來是毛利率——網路毛利率。我們預計第四季度網路業務調整後毛利率將在 49% 至 51% 之間。預計 2025 年的重組費用將保持在高位，而 RAN 市場則保持平穩，因此降低成本仍然是明年的重要槓桿。

With that, I will hand back to you, Börje.

就這樣，我把麥克風交還給你，Börje。

Okay. Thank you, Lars. So our Q3 report highlights our laser focus on both strategic and operating priorities. Our strong results are a reflection of the actions we've taken to structurally improve our business in the past few years. This of course, includes both the work we've done to improve our cost base and the way we run the business with greater operational efficiency and commercial discipline. The results of these efforts are now clearly visible in our P&L, and we expect them to continue supporting performance going forward.

好的。謝謝你，拉爾斯。因此，我們的第三季報告重點強調了我們對策略和營運重點的嚴格把控。我們所取得的優異成績反映了我們在過去幾年為改善業務結構所採取的措施。這當然包括我們為改善成本基礎所做的工作，以及我們以更高的營運效率和商業紀律來經營業務的方式。這些努力的成果現在已經在我們的損益表中清晰可見，我們預計它們將繼續支持未來的業績成長。

On the commercial side, we continue to strengthen our competitive position in mobile networks, and we're seeing good traction in key markets. This is a reflection of our technology leadership and the strength of our portfolio. And that has most recently been reconfirmed by both Gartner as well as Omdia.

在商業方面，我們持續加強在行動網路領域的競爭地位，並在重點市場取得了良好的進展。這體現了我們在技術領域的領先地位和產品組合的實力。Gartner 和 Omdia 最近都再次證實了這一點。

With programmable high-performance networks, our customers are well prepared for the growth in AI applications by having the best network for AI traffic. Our open RAN ready portfolio includes over 130 radio models and our future-proof hardware agnostic software architecture that is AI native, support both our own silicon, Ericsson silicon, and third-party CPUs and GPUs and is already integrated with more than 10 third-party radios.

憑藉可程式化的高效能網絡，我們的客戶擁有最適合人工智慧流量的網絡，為人工智慧應用的成長做好了充分準備。我們開放給開放的 RAN 產品組合包括 130 多種無線電型號，以及面向未來的、與硬體無關的軟體架構，該架構原生支援 AI，支援我們自己的晶片、愛立信晶片以及第三方 CPU 和 GPU，並且已經與 10 多種第三方無線電整合。

To put Ericsson on a growth trajectory, we're executing on our strategy to expand the monetization opportunities of the network. Here, we're taking some important steps, of course, including our work in fixed wireless access, mission critical as well as maybe more importantly, we're exposing to developers the network features through network APIs to drive innovation.

為了讓愛立信走上成長軌道，我們正在執行擴大網路貨幣化機會的策略。當然，我們正在採取一些重要的步驟，包括我們在固定無線存取方面的工作，這是至關重要的任務，可能更重要的是，我們正在透過網路 API 向開發人員開放網路功能，以推動創新。

This will make it possible for Ericsson and our CSP customers to capture an increasing share of the value created from connectivity, which so far, as you all know, have been going to hyperscalers and over-the-top players.

這將使愛立信和我們的 CSP 客戶能夠獲得連接所創造的價值中越來越大的份額，而到目前為止，正如大家所知，這些價值一直流向了超大規模資料中心營運商和 OTT 營運商。

Of course, creating new cases and new markets takes time, but we're moving from proof of concept into commercial deployment. And this is reflected in our Enterprise segment, which we expect to stabilize in Q4. We will continue to invest in technology leadership to ensure that Ericsson is leading in both its core mobile infrastructure business by having the best network for AI and of course, into 6G, but also leading the development of new use cases and new applications of wireless networks.

當然，創造新的案例和新的市場需要時間，但我們正在從概念驗證過渡到商業部署。這一點也反映在我們的企業業務板塊，我們預計該板塊將在第四季度趨於穩定。我們將繼續投資於技術領先地位，以確保愛立信不僅在其核心行動基礎設施業務中保持領先地位，擁有人工智慧和 6G 的最佳網絡，而且還在無線網路新用例和新應用的開發方面處於領先地位。

Looking ahead, we expect AI applications as well as AI devices to be increasingly the key driver of further investments in the networks. At the same time, we're facing a dynamic external environment with geopolitical uncertainty and the RAN market that has been flat for the last couple of decades.

展望未來，我們預期人工智慧應用和人工智慧設備將日益成為推動網路領域進一步投資的關鍵因素。同時，我們面臨地緣政治不確定性所帶來的動態外部環境，以及過去二十年來一直低迷的無線接取網路市場。

So we continue to take actions to structurally improve our business through rigorous cost management, including, of course, leveraging AI to change ways of working internally. This way, we're ensuring that Ericsson will continue to succeed across varying market conditions.

因此，我們將繼續採取措施，透過嚴格的成本管理從結構上改善我們的業務，當然也包括利用人工智慧來改變內部工作方式。這樣，我們就能確保愛立信在各種不同的市場環境下都能持續成功。

Before we turn to Q&A, I would like to say a big thank you to all my colleagues for all their hard work in making these results possible. With that, let's open up for Q&A and back to you, Daniel.

在進入問答環節之前，我要衷心感謝我的所有同事，感謝他們為這些成果所付出的辛勤努力。接下來，讓我們進入問答環節，把麥克風交給你，丹尼爾。

Thanks, Börje. We'll now move to the Q&A section of the presentation. (Operator Instructions) Operator, we're ready to open the line for the first question. Andrew Gardiner, Citi.

謝謝，Börje。接下來我們將進入問答環節。（操作員指示）操作員，我們已準備好開放第一個問題的線路。安德魯·加德納，花旗銀行。

Thank you, Daniel. So I wanted to follow up, Börje, on the point you were making about the sort of level of sustainable margins that you're achieving at the moment. Another quarter where you're at the top end of the guidance range that you provided back at 2Q.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。所以，Börje，我想就你剛才提到的關於你們目前所達到的可持續利潤水平這一點再補充一點。又一個季度，你們的業績達到了第二季度給出的預期範圍的上限。

So just thinking historically, oftentimes when Ericsson would talk about gross margins and in particular, talking to us in the financial market about what we could expect into the future, it was all about mix and in particular, regional mix. But you've seen over the last year or so that regional mix has been dynamic, as you suggest, and yet you're still delivering pretty consistent gross margins quarter after quarter.

所以從歷史角度來看，愛立信經常談到毛利率，特別是和我們這些金融市場人士談論未來前景時，總是圍繞著產品組合，特別是區域產品組合。但正如您所說，在過去一年左右的時間裡，區域組合一直在變化，但您仍然能夠每個季度都保持相當穩定的毛利率。

Should we be looking less at the regional dynamics as we look into 2026 and beyond? And if so, can you just help us understand what within the business, particularly around the cost-cutting and the product costs that you've now been able to get to sort of this sustainable level of gross margins regardless of whether US is up or down or India is up or down? A bit more detail that would be really helpful in terms of thinking to next year.

展望 2026 年及以後，我們是否應該減少對區域動態的關注？如果是這樣，您能否幫助我們了解一下，貴公司在業務方面，尤其是在成本削減和產品成本方面，是如何實現這種可持續的毛利率水平的，無論美國或印度的市場行情如何？如果能提供更多細節，對於思考明年的事情會非常有幫助。

Thanks, Andrew. Great question. I would -- if just I start, maybe Lars, fill-in, but the reality is we've been working over a number of years to structurally improve a couple of things in the business. One is the way we operate our supply chain clearly. That's been -- of course, COVID disturbed it a bit, but those improvements we've been working on for a couple of years. And the last, I would say, year we've had more COVID-free supply chain, and that has, of course, helped. And that's what you see now coming through. I would say that's one of the key part.

謝謝你，安德魯。問得好。如果只有我一個人開始，也許 Lars 可以頂替一下，但現實情況是，我們多年來一直在努力從結構上改進業務中的一些方面。第一點是我們如何清楚地營運供應鏈。當然，新冠疫情對此造成了一些幹擾，但我們已經努力改進了好幾年。去年，我們的供應鏈受新冠疫情影響較小，這當然有幫助。而這就是你現在看到的。我認為這是關鍵部分之一。

The other is on service delivery, where we have improved the way we operate internally by structurally taking out costs. All of these improvements we've done in a way it actually takes out a bit of the mix dependency. We still have a mixed dependency on software, services and hardware in reality, but it's less so of a geographic exposure.

另一方面，在服務交付方面，我們透過結構性地削減成本，改善了內部運作方式。從某種程度上說，我們所做的所有這些改進實際上都減少了對混音的依賴。實際上，我們仍然對軟體、服務和硬體有混合依賴，但地域性風險降低。

So that's why when you look going forward, there is still a mix dependency for sure, geographic, but the underlying improvements are coming through in other areas where we still have a bit more to do. I think we can be even better on service delivery and actually leverage automation much more, and we can, for sure, be better on OpEx but that you'll see come through already. But I think we have more to do there, primarily by leveraging AI and changing our ways of working.

所以，展望未來，雖然仍然存在地域上的依賴關係，但其他領域也正在取得實質的進步，儘管我們還有一些工作要做。我認為我們在服務交付方面可以做得更好，並且能夠更好地利用自動化，而且我們肯定可以在營運支出方面做得更好，但這一點你們很快就會看到成效。但我認為我們在這方面還有更多工作要做，主要是透過利用人工智慧和改變我們的工作方式。

I don't know what you want to add, Lars?

拉爾斯，我不知道你還想補充什麼？

I think you covered the full P&L pretty well. And I think as you highlighted there, it is really the product mix in the market that can vary between quarters depending on share of software, hardware, et cetera, and that is driving customers moving more and more into our advanced products with the margins that will come. That is also making it more even between different regions.

我認為你已經把損益表分析得相當全面了。正如您所強調的，市場上的產品組合確實會因軟體、硬體等的份額而每季發生變化，這促使客戶越來越多地轉向我們的高級產品，以獲得更高的利潤。這也使得不同地區之間的差距更加縮小。

Thanks for the question, Andrew. Moving to the next question, please. Erik Lindholm-Rojestal, SEB.

謝謝你的提問，安德魯。請進入下一個問題。Erik Lindholm-Rojestal，SEB。

One question from me. So Börje, you mentioned some -- you mentioned edge AI being a key driver to future network investments. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts here. I mean, is this something you are seeing in discussions with operators already today and that operators is sort of acting on? Or is this more of something you see in the coming years?

我還有一個問題。所以 Börje，你提到了一些——你提到邊緣人工智慧是未來網路投資的關鍵驅動因素。我只是想聽聽你們的看法。我的意思是，你今天在與運營商的討論中是否已經看到了這種情況，而運營商也正在採取某種行動？或者，您認為這更多是未來幾年才會出現的情況？

Yeah. If you look at so far, most of the AI investments have, in reality, been in the data center part for the -- for developing and training models, right? We see the market increasingly moving towards in [France] and that, I would say, is going to be much more latency sensitive. And therefore, it will start to move out towards the edge. And here, we're -- I wouldn't point to an operator that have done investments but we're starting to see certain application demanding edge compute and edge AI or whatever you want to call it.

是的。從目前的情況來看，大多數人工智慧投資實際上都集中在資料中心部分，用於開發和訓練模型，對吧？我們看到市場正日益向法國轉移，我認為，法國對延遲的敏感度會更高。因此，它會開始向邊緣移動。現在，我不會指出哪些運營商已經進行了投資，但我們開始看到某些應用需要邊緣運算和邊緣人工智慧，或者你想怎麼稱呼它都行。

So I'm actually relatively hopeful that this will come through. It's not going to be next quarter. It's not going to be Q1, Q2. The amount of capital going into the big data centers, that's going to continue. But as applications start to pick up, I think the need for edge compute will be clear.

所以我其實比較有希望這件事能成功。不會是下個季度。不會是第一季、第二季。投入大數據中心的資金量將會持續成長。但隨著應用程式數量的成長，我認為邊緣運算的需求將會變得顯而易見。

So if you start to think about it, the next step is we're -- we've been smartphone-centric in the past. We may well move into other types of form factors. So think about AI glasses, that will require much more low latency performance to be really usable.

所以如果你開始思考這個問題，下一步就是我們——我們過去一直以智慧型手機為中心。我們很可能會轉向其他類型的外形尺寸。所以想想人工智慧眼鏡，要真正實用，就需要更低的延遲效能。

So as we start to see that coming through, and there have been some launches of devices that actually will require a new form factor and will require new capabilities in the network. So I do think this is starting to happen, but I would still say we take a bit of a prudent look at the market, adjust our cost structure to that prudent outlook. And then when the demand comes, then we'll be well positioned to capture that through our technology leadership.

因此，隨著我們開始看到這種情況的出現，一些設備的推出實際上需要新的外形尺寸，並且需要在網路中具備新的功能。所以我認為這種情況正在發生，但我仍然認為我們應該謹慎地看待市場，並根據這種謹慎的預期調整我們的成本結構。當需求到來時，我們將憑藉我們的技術領先優勢，佔據有利地位，抓住機會。

Thanks for the question, Eric. Moving to the next question, please. Sébastien Sztabowicz, Kepler Cheuvreux.

謝謝你的提問，艾瑞克。請進入下一個問題。史巴博維奇 (Sébastien Sztabowicz)，開普勒‧舍弗勒 (Kepler Cheuvreux)。

On Cloud Software & Services, your business has accelerated quite substantially in the third quarter with the ramp of 5G core deployments in many areas. You still see 5G core picking up again in the fourth quarter and moving into '26. Is it something that could trigger some upgrades to 5G advanced in the coming quarters? And could it have some positive implication to your mix and gross margin in the coming quarters?

在雲端軟體和服務方面，隨著 5G 核心網路在許多地區的部署加速，您的業務在第三季度得到了相當大的發展。你仍然可以看到 5G 核心網在第四季度再次興起，並延續到 2026 年。這是否會在未來幾季引發 5G 先進技術的升級？這是否會對未來幾季的產品組合和毛利率產生正面影響？

Do you want to take this one, Lars?

拉爾斯，你想接這個任務嗎？

On the financials, then you can fill in on the 5G connection there. But I think when it comes to Cloud, we see a good development there and have seen for quite some time, and that is coming through now when other parts of the portfolio is stabilizing here when it comes to managed service, et cetera. So then, as I mentioned before, also Q2 versus Q3, Q2 was a bit slow. So we got a bit of a boost in the growth rate here in the third quarter.

關於財務方面，您可以在那裡填寫有關 5G 連接的資訊。但我認為，就雲端運算而言，我們已經看到了良好的發展勢頭，而且這種勢頭已經持續了相當長一段時間，現在隨著產品組合的其他部分（例如託管服務等）趨於穩定，雲端運算的優勢也逐漸顯現出來。所以，正如我之前提到的，第二季與第三季相比，第二季進展稍慢。因此，第三季我們的成長率有所提升。

But having said that, we still see a good development going forward also in managed services or in Cloud Software and Services, including then, of course, core that we highlight here where we are seeing good position, good reception in market and to focus on stable, resilient network is very high among our customers. And I think we see that we have a good position there.

但即便如此，我們仍看到託管服務或雲端軟體和服務領域，包括我們在此重點介紹的核心領域，都將繼續保持良好的發展勢頭。核心領域目前處於良好的市場地位，受到市場的廣泛歡迎，而穩定、有彈性的網路也深受客戶青睞。我認為我們在這方面處於有利地位。

I don't know if you want to add more on top of that, Börje?

博爾傑，我不知道你是否還想在此基礎上添加更多內容？

Yeah, I can add. The one thing which is important is, of course, that the operators need to migrate to 5G standalone, and that is something that's going to be required in order to deliver the capabilities of 5G. So when we have spoken in the past of low latency, very high bandwidth, network slices et cetera, it's all depending on being on 5G SA. And so far, it's, I would say, one in five operators or one in five networks maybe are upgraded.

是的，我可以補充。當然，最重要的是營運商需要遷移到 5G 獨立群組網，這是實現 5G 功能所必需的。所以，我們過去談到的低延遲、高頻寬、網路切片等等，這一切都取決於是否採用 5G SA。到目前為止，我認為只有五分之一的營運商或五分之一的網路進行了升級。

There are a couple of big operators that have really solid 5G SA networks now, and they are also starting to realize extra revenues from network slices from differentiated offerings. So we're seeing that they need to do that migration. And when it happens, it will help our business both in mid-band coverage. But it will also, of course, be in 5G core. So the position we have in 5G core is clearly today world leading, and I would say, we stand to benefit from that migration that's going to happen over the next few years.

現在有幾家大型業者擁有非常強大的 5G SA 網絡，他們也開始從差異化產品的網路切片中獲得額外收入。所以我們看到他們需要進行遷移。當這種情況發生時，它將有助於我們在中頻段覆蓋方面的業務發展。當然，它也會應用於 5G 核心網。因此，我們目前在 5G 核心領域的地位顯然是世界領先的，而且我認為，我們將從未來幾年即將發生的遷移中受益。

So I actually think in that sense, we can be -- we should be optimistic about the prospects. Still, we run the business based on more flats assumptions. So we run the right cost structure and get the full operating leverage when growth comes. So a little bit of the explanation of the better margins in Q3 is actually the operating leverage we get from growth as well.

所以我覺得從這個意義上講，我們可以——我們應該對前景保持樂觀。然而，我們仍然基於更簡單的假設來經營業務。因此，我們可以採用正確的成本結構，並在成長到來時獲得充分的營運槓桿。所以，第三季利潤率提高的部分原因其實也是成長帶來的經營槓桿效應。

Thanks for the question, Sébastien. Andreas Joelsson, DNB Carnegie.

謝謝你的提問，賽巴斯蒂安。安德烈亞斯·喬爾森，DNB 卡內基。

I have a question on the cash flow. Börje, in the CEO statement you mentioned that it's a recurring cash flow, which is a phrase at least I have not seen before when it comes to Ericsson. Can you explain a little bit what you mean with recurring cash flow? Is it because of a better cost base that makes the cash flow less volatile? Or how should we see that recurring cash flow?

我有一個關於現金流的問題。Börje，你在執行長聲明中提到這是一個經常性現金流，至少就愛立信而言，我以前從未見過這種說法。您能稍微解釋一下您所說的經常性現金流是什麼意思嗎？是因為成本基礎比較合理，所以現金流波動性較小嗎？或者我們應該如何看待這種經常性現金流？

I could start, maybe. So that is -- the key is that we are a project business, right, and have been. And I think we have put more efforts into a couple of things here. One is to improve the cost base, so we have less exposure to that. We're also gradually changing the way we sell our product and that will increase the portion of software revenues coming in different models and kind of advanced services also coming in different models.

或許我可以開始。所以關鍵在於——我們是一家專案型企業，對吧，而且一直都是。我認為我們在某些​​方面投入了更多精力。一種方法是改善成本基礎，從而減少我們對成本的風險敞口。我們也逐漸改變產品的銷售方式，這將增加不同模式的軟體收入佔比，各種高級服務也將以不同的模式提供。

When you put all of that together, we feel more comfortable about the stability of our cash flow generation going forward. And therefore, we start to talk about the recurring underlying ability to generate cash flow, but it comes out of a couple of changes to cost structure and business model.

綜合所有因素，我們對未來現金流的穩定性更有信心。因此，我們開始討論持續產生現金流的基本能力，但這源自於成本結構和商業模式的一些變化。

Thanks for the question, Andreas. Lars, anything to add?

謝謝你的提問，安德烈亞斯。拉爾斯，還有什麼要補充的嗎？

No, I think that comment is -- of course, we will have (technical difficulty) that can be swings within one or two quarters, that is normal in the project business that we have. But as Börje said there, we are working actively to sort out. So we have more the terms and condition in a way that also support more solid cash flow and reduce volatility. So that is what we have been working with for quite some time. And I think we can see the result coming out of that.

不，我認為那句話的意思是——當然，我們會遇到（技術困難），這可能會在一兩個季度內有所波動，這在我們所從事的專案業務中是正常的。但正如 Börje 所說，我們正在積極努力解決這個問題。因此，我們制定了更多條款和條件，以支持更穩定的現金流並降低波動性。這就是我們長期以來一直在研究的東西。我認為我們可以看到由此產生的結果。

Thank you. Moving on to the next question, please. Sandeep Deshpande, JPMorgan.

謝謝。請進入下一個問題。Sandeep Deshpande，摩根大通。

Yeah. Can you hear me?

是的。你聽得到我嗎？

We do well.

我們做得很好。

My question is you're guiding to seasonal growth in both networks and the CNS business into the next quarter but also flagging increased uncertainty. Does this mean that if there was increased uncertainty that there will be a change to this growth in the fourth quarter or -- and which is the areas in which this increased uncertainty is coming from if there is incremental increased uncertainty that you're pointing to? Or it is just ongoing uncertainty?

我的問題是，您預計下一季網路和中樞神經系統業務都將實現季節性成長，但同時也指出不確定性增加。這是否意味著，如果不確定性增加，第四季的成長將會改變？ ——如果您所指的不確定性增加，那麼這種不確定性增加究竟來自哪些領域？或者只是持續的不確定性？

Lars?

拉爾斯？

When it comes to the guidance for the fourth quarter, this is what we see now coming into the fourth quarter. And as you know, for us, our business is very back end heavy in the quarter. So -- but this is still what we see now. And when it comes to increased uncertainty, it's not so much maybe in the quarter per se, but really a little bit long term. There is an ongoing discussion on tariffs as we all follow that could impact us or our customers et cetera. So I think that is more what we are pointing to that area.

關於第四季的業績指引，以下是我們對第四季的展望。如您所知，對我們來說，本季業務的後端部分非常繁忙。所以——但這就是我們現在看到的。至於不確定性增加，這並不是說可能只影響到本季，而是會從長遠角度來看。目前關於關稅的討論仍在進行中，我們都在關注這可能會對我們或我們的客戶等產生影響。所以我認為這才是我們在這個領域所關注的重點。

So do you mean that if the increased uncertainty diminishes that your -- you should do better than normal seasonality in the fourth quarter?

所以你的意思是，如果不確定性增加的情況減少，那麼你們──你們在第四季的業績應該會比正常的季節性波動好？

No, that is not what we are saying. We are pointing to the reality that we live in.

不，我們不是那個意思。我們指的是我們所生活的現實。

Thanks, Sandeep. Moving to the next question, please. Daniel Djurberg, Handelsbanken.

謝謝你，桑迪普。請進入下一個問題。丹尼爾‧朱爾伯格，德國商業銀行。

Thank you, Daniel, and good morning. Congrats to a steady report. Yeah, coming back to recurring changed business model on Cloud Software and Services. Can you share with us ballpark the percentage of revenue that you consider being a recurring in nature or at least a large part of the 5G core revenues that is recurring?

謝謝你，丹尼爾，早安。恭喜報告穩定。是的，我們又回到了雲端軟體和服務領域不斷變化的商業模式。您能否大致估算一下您認為具有經常性的收入百分比，或至少是5G核心收入中很大一部分是經常性收入？

No, we don't go into those kind of agreements, but what we can say or share, let's say, but what we can see evolving here going forward, continuously, what we are doing is moving into more and more recurring, but also a model based on more connected to the utilization, which as utilization of networks increase also has an impact on our revenues. And that is maybe a little bit achieved from what we have had historically, where we had more kind of fixed price models. So I think that is also supporting our revenue going forward.

不，我們不談這類協議，但我們可以說或分享的是，我們可以看到，未來我們將不斷朝著這個方向發展，我們正在做的是越來越傾向於經常性模式，同時也採用與利用率更緊密相關的模式，隨著網絡利用率的提高，也會對我們的收入產生影響。而這或許與我們過去所擁有的固定價格模式相比，已經取得了一些進展。所以我認為這也會對我們未來的收入起到支撐作用。

Thanks, Daniel. Moving to the next question, please. Jakob Bluestone, BNP Paribas.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。請進入下一個問題。Jakob Bluestone，法國巴黎銀行。

Thanks. I had a question on your OpEx. I was wondering if you could maybe give us a little bit of an update on what your sort of current thinking is in terms of OpEx evolution. I guess, second half or Q4, I think you previously said you expected better than normal sort of H on H for the second half, [after] Q3 now, which is pretty good. Just kind of any thoughts sort of around OpEx next quarter and also how you see that perhaps evolving a little bit longer term as well?

謝謝。我有一個關於你們營運支出方面的問題。我想請您簡要介紹一下您目前對營運支出發展的想法。我猜，下半年或第四季度，我想你之前說過，你預計下半年（在第三季之後）的業績會比平常更好，這相當不錯。您對下一季的營運支出有什麼想法嗎？而您認為從長遠來看，營運支出可能會如何發展？

Yeah. When it comes to Q4, I think what we say, we had quite a big impact last year to incentive provisioning there. And we -- that was sort of a hurting or impacting the numbers there. But otherwise, it's rather normal seasonal. There is normally a bit of an uptick from Q3 going into Q4. So that is what we expect there as well this year.

是的。就第四季而言，我認為我們去年對激勵撥備產生了相當大的影響。而我們——這在某種程度上損害或影響了那裡的數據。但除此之外，這屬於比較正常的季節性現象。通常情況下，從第三季到第四季會略有成長。所以，我們預計今年也會出現同樣的情況。

And when it comes going forward, as we talk about, we live in a flat RAN market. That is our, let's say, planning assumption, and that means that we need to continuously fight with inflation coming through, including salary increases. And just to keep flat, will require further activities on the cost side. And we will do that also going forward, that I think is also part of the outlook that we say that remaining elevated levels. And that work will need to continue.

展望未來，正如我們所討論的，我們生活在一個平坦的無線接入網市場。這是我們目前的規劃假設，這意味著我們需要持續應對通貨膨脹，包括薪資上漲。而要保持平穩，還需要在成本方面採取進一步措施。我們未來也會繼續這樣做，我認為這也是我們所說的保持高水準的展望的一部分。這項工作需要繼續下去。

And as Börje mentioned, we have just compared to a year ago, we are some 6,000 people less in the group and that work will need to continue also going into next year.

正如 Börje 所提到的，與一年前相比，我們團隊的人數減少了約 6000 人，這項工作還需要延續到明年。

Thanks for the question, Jakob. Moving to the next question, please. Felix Henriksson, Nordea.

謝謝你的提問，雅各。請進入下一個問題。Felix Henriksson，北歐銀行。

It's on the North American market. We see some increased appetite for mobile spectrum as witnessed by, for example, AT&T's Spectrum acquisition from EchoStar recently. When you discuss with your local clients in North America, how do you expect this sort of to translate into RAN equipment demand for you guys in the coming years?

它已在北美市場銷售。我們看到市場對行動頻譜的需求增加，例如 AT&T 最近從 EchoStar 收購了 Spectrum。當您與北美當地客戶討論時，您預計這種情況在未來幾年將如何轉化為貴公司對無線接取網路 (RAN) 設備的需求？

Thanks for the question. As you know, Spectrum is the lifeline of our industry and the -- what keeps it ticking and it's the scarcest resource in the industry. What the strategies are of our customers, how to deploy that spectrum, I think they should answer. So I'll keep answer more on the generic level. But this is clearly something that, of course, spectrum and spectrum free up is important for an industry.

謝謝你的提問。如您所知，頻譜是我們產業的生命線，是維持產業運轉的根本，也是產業中最稀缺的資源。客戶的策略是什麼，如何部署頻譜，我認為他們應該回答這個問題。所以我會盡量從一般性的角度來回答。但顯然，頻譜以及釋放頻譜對於一個產業來說非常重要。

What we've seen in other markets, typically, it depends on your spectrum portfolio. So how does it fit into your spectrum portfolio, is it adjacent to some existing spectrum? If it is, you can most likely use some of existing equipment. If it's actually other spectrum, you will need more hardware. You will need software upgrades.

我們從其他市場看到的情況來看，通常情況下，這取決於你的頻譜組合。那麼，它如何融入您的頻譜組合？它是否與現有頻譜相鄰？如果是這樣，你很可能可以使用一些現有的設備。如果實際上是其他頻譜，則需要更多硬體。您需要進行軟體升級。

And what we have typically seen in other markets is it actually drives CapEx in the total market because clearly, you're going to have more capacity, better performance of the network as you use more spectrum and therefore, other operators to match that typically needs also to invest a bit more. So overall, getting into a market where spectrum kind of -- is actually increasing deployed will typically help the total market and will actually help the customer experience at the end of the day.

而我們在其他市場通常看到的是，這實際上會推動整個市場的資本支出，因為很明顯，隨著頻譜使用量的增加，網路容量會更大，效能也會更好，因此，其他營運商為了與之匹配，通常也需要進行更多投資。因此，總的來說，進入一個頻譜部署不斷增加的市場，通常會對整個市場有所幫助，最終也會對客戶體驗有所幫助。

So in this case, let AT&T comment on their strategy. But I think it is worthwhile also to say that we had, as you may know, no market share with Dish. So let's see where this pans out, but AT&T talks about their own plans.

所以，在這種情況下，就讓AT&T來解釋他們的策略吧。但我認為也值得一提的是，正如您可能知道的那樣，我們與 Dish 的市場份額為零。讓我們拭目以待，看看事情會如何發展，但AT&T也談到了他們自己的計劃。

Thanks for the question, Felix. Moving to the next question, please. Ulrich Rathe, Bernstein.

謝謝你的提問，菲利克斯。請進入下一個問題。烏爾里希·拉特，伯恩斯坦。

Yeah. Thanks very much. I want to latch on to an earlier question on OpEx development. In the R&D spending, that's down 12% year-to-year -- sorry, year-on-year. You're highlighting the poor 3 percentage point. So that's still a very material cut on the R&D spend. Could you comment what measures you use to make sure that you're not underinvesting because there is, of course, in history in the industry, in the equipment industry of under investment and sort of result in competitive issues. How do you make sure that the R&D cutbacks don't lead you into that future?

是的。非常感謝。我想就之前關於營運支出開發的問題做個補充說明。研發支出較去年同期下降 12%——抱歉，是年減 12%。你只關注了那可憐的3個百分點。所以，這仍然是對研發支出的一次非常大幅的削減。您能否談談您採取了哪些措施來確保不會投資不足？因為在設備產業的歷史上，當然存在投資不足的情況，這會導致競爭問題。如何確保研發削減不會導致公司走向那樣的未來？

I can just give you a comment on the financials first before you answer as well, Börje. I think you need to remember the currency impact on the OpEx that we have. And as I mentioned here in the beginning, we have around SEK1 billion in currency impact, and that is, of course, also in R&D.

在你回答之前，我可以先就財務狀況發表一些看法，Börje。我認為你需要記住匯率對我們營運支出的影響。正如我一開始提到的，貨幣影響約為 10 億瑞典克朗，當然，這也包括研發費用。

So if you look at Networks, R&D spending, taking out FX is actually rather stable whereas in Cloud Software and Service, we have done work last years to reduce in some areas in the R&D and made prioritization in the product portfolio and we had some extra cost on the transition that we did within R&D in Cloud Software and Services last year. So they were a little bit elevated.

因此，如果你看一下網路業務，研發支出（剔除外匯影響）實際上相當穩定；而在雲端軟體和服務業務方面，我們去年做了一些工作來減少某些領域的研發支出，並對產品組合進行了優先排序，因此我們在去年雲端軟體和服務研發轉型過程中產生了一些額外的成本。所以它們的高度稍微高了一些。

So you should not see this as a big reduction in R&D spend actually. Then having said that, we continuously evaluate the different parts of the portfolio where we spend our R&D and make decisions in that. Anything you would like to add as well on that, Börje?

所以實際上你不應該把這看作是研發支出的大幅減少。話雖如此，我們仍會不斷評估我們在研發方面投入的不同投資組合部分，並據此做出決策。博爾傑，你還有什麼要補充的嗎？

Yeah. Just to be clear on a couple of things. So yeah, we have -- we (technical difficulty) to actually turn around [BCL] sense, we needed to focus the portfolio a bit. So we actually said in a couple of areas, we're not going to compete. So those who have actually exited, that helps the R&D spend. It doesn't impact necessarily the output where you need to win, right? So that we've done.

是的。有幾件事需要澄清一下。所以，是的，我們遇到了技術難題，要真正扭轉[BCL]的局面，我們需要稍微調整一下投資組合。所以，我們實際上在某些領域表示，我們不會參與競爭。所以，已經退出的公司，有助於研發支出。這未必會影響到你需要取勝的那場比賽的成績，對吧？我們已經完成了。

Then as Lars said, in a bit of cryptic, but the geopolitical situation has required us to shift resources a bit politically. That led to as we went through that whole transition that we duplicated a large part of R&D spend that have now -- we don't need to have that anymore as we have relocated R&D. So rebalanced R&D. So that actually is another part. So yeah, your question is well taken.

正如 Lars 用略顯隱晦的方式所說，地緣政治情勢要求我們在政治上稍微轉移資源。這導致我們在轉型過程中重複投入了大量研發資金，而現在我們已經轉移了研發部門，不再需要這些資金了。因此，研發重心重新調整。所以，這其實是另一部分。是的，你的問題問得很好。

We should always worry that to be competitive, we need to spend enough to do that, and we need to really be competitive with the Chinese. So our ambition is clearly to benchmark ourselves there. So it's going to be their ambitions that drive our scaling of R&D. That's been the case for the last several years, at least during my tenure, and it will continue to be the case going forward. So we are not going to jeopardize technology leadership.

我們應該始終意識到，要保持競爭力，我們需要投入足夠的資金，我們必須真正與中國企業競爭。因此，我們的目標很明確，就是以那裡的標準來衡量自己。因此，他們的雄心壯志將推動我們擴大研發規模。至少在我任職期間，過去幾年情況一直如此，未來也將繼續如此。所以我們不能危及自身的技術領先地位。

And if we feel that there is any risk -- and that's a risk I don't see today, then we would, of course, need to reassess. But as I see it, this is a natural -- the FX part you can take out, but the other one actually of removing duplication, that's been the key driver and something that was in the plans to do. Just on -- you didn't want to talk about it until it was done.

如果我們認為有任何風險——雖然我今天沒有看到這種風險——那麼我們當然需要重新評估。但依我看來，這是自然而然的──特效部分可以去掉，但實際上消除重複部分才是關鍵驅動因素，也是我們計畫要做的事。就這麼簡單——你直到事情結束才想談論它。

Thanks, Ulrich. Thanks for the question. Moving to the next question, please. Simon Granath, ABG.

謝謝你，烏爾里希。謝謝你的提問。請進入下一個問題。Simon Granath，ABG。

Thanks, Daniel. So on CSS, it once again delivered a quarter with year-on-year growth and strengthening margins. Now the rolling 12-month margin is at some 8%. So I'm curious to hear on what sort of ball tank levels which you'd expect in the medium term?

謝謝你，丹尼爾。因此，CSS再次實現了年成長和利潤率的提升。目前滾動12個月利潤率約8%。所以我很想知道，您預計中期內球池水位會達到什麼水準？

And then a question connected to this, you continue to emphasize that 5G standalone is needed for the operators to fully leverage the networks. And with 5G, there has clearly been a mismatch between deployment of 5G stand-alone and non standalone. But as we look into entering 6G in a couple of years, do you think that the matching will be better and thus the leverage of the networks?

然後還有一個相關的問題，您一直強調，運營商需要 5G 獨立組網才能充分利用網路。而對於 5G 來說，5G 獨立組網和非獨立組網的部署之間顯然存在不匹配。但展望未來幾年即將到來的 6G 時代，您認為網路匹配度會更高嗎？從而能更好地發揮網路的優勢？

Maybe Lars briefly first on the margin.

或許拉爾斯會短暫地先在邊緣徘徊。

We have set ourselves to work towards a solid double-digit margin in Cloud Software and Services, that is the first step that we are working on. And you can see here, in this quarter, you really see the impact on having a bit of growth on top and the leverage impact that gives together with continued tight ship on the cost side, it really pays off. So that is a continued work on that. And then on the 5G SA and 6G question, Börje?

我們已將目標設定為在雲端軟體和服務領域實現兩位數的穩健利潤率，這是我們正在努力的第一步。您可以看到，在本季度，成長帶來的額外收益以及由此產生的槓桿效應，再加上成本方面的持續嚴格控制，確實取得了成效。所以，這項工作仍在繼續。那麼關於 5G SA 和 6G 的問題，Börje？

Yeah. The -- it's -- the 6G will most likely be defined in the next few years, right, with first commercial sales. Everybody talks about 2030, I think it will be a bit earlier than that. So having said that, I think it's important to keep in mind.

是的。6G 技術很可能在未來幾年內定義，對吧，屆時將迎來首次商業銷售。大家都說要到2030年，但我認為會比那更早。所以說，我認為這一點很重要，需要牢記。

What I do think is that the big change between 5G NSA and 5G SA is that with 5G NSA or non-standalone, the market kind of continued to sell 4G plus. It was the established business model of most operators around the world. So it became very natural to take that step, that didn't give -- and then use 5G almost as a marketing icon on the phone. But in reality, it didn't give the extra capabilities.

我認為 5G NSA 和 5G SA 之間最大的區別在於，5G NSA（非獨立組網）出現後，市場實際上仍在繼續銷售 4G Plus。這是世界各地大多數業者採用的既定商業模式。因此，採取這一步驟變得非常自然，並沒有放棄——而是將 5G 幾乎作為手機上的行銷標誌。但實際上，它並沒有提供額外的功能。

To get the extra capabilities, the operators would have needed or need to go to 5G SA. And I have no doubt that the new capabilities, call it, network slicing, call it low latency, quality improved security will be critical in applications over the next two, three years, that will require the operators to build out 5G SA.

為了獲得額外的功能，運營商過去需要或現在需要升級到 5G SA。我毫不懷疑，這些新的功能，無論是稱之為網路切片，還是稱之為低延遲、品質提升的安全性，在未來兩三年內對於需要運營商構建 5G SA 的應用來說都至關重要。

And by the way, when they have built out 5G SA, they will put themselves on the journey to upgrade to 6G. When that happens, 6G will be much more AI cloud dependent. But actually, what you do in 5G SA paves the way into that world. And what's more important, by being in 5G SA, you create the monetization models that will be needed in 6G as well.

順便說一句，當他們建成 5G SA 之後，他們就會著手升級到 6G。到那時，6G 將更加依賴人工智慧雲端。但實際上，你在 5G SA 中所做的一切，為進入那個世界鋪平了道路。更重要的是，透過採用 5G SA 技術，您可以創建 6G 也需要的獲利模式。

So -- then you go through the, what I will call, the business development portion and the changes in your go-to-market capabilities that you're doing during 5G and then you leverage that into 6G that will again provide better and stronger capabilities, but it will depend on new type of monetization. So that needs to happen.

所以——接下來，你要經歷我稱之為業務發展的部分，以及你在 5G 期間進行的市場推廣能力的改變，然後你將這些改變應用到 6G 中，6G 將再次提供更好、更強大的能力，但這取決於新的盈利模式。所以這件事必鬚髮生。

Thanks for the question, Simon. Moving to the next question, please. Sami Sarkamies, Danske Bank.

謝謝你的提問，西蒙。請進入下一個問題。薩米·薩卡米斯，丹麥銀行。

I still wanted to go back to the strong performance at Cloud Software and Services. I guess you didn't call out any large deals, but were there any like positive one-time factors impacting third quarter? And then thinking forward, can we assume that sort of the 8% run rate you've been able to achieve in the past four quarters, is that something that you've been able to attain on a permanent basis?

我仍然希望能夠重回雲端軟體和服務部門的強勁業績。我猜你沒有提到任何大宗交易，但是第三季有沒有什麼正面的一次性因素影響呢？那麼展望未來，我們能否假設你在過去四個季度中取得的 8% 的勝率，能夠長期維持下去呢？

In the quarter, in Cloud Software and Services on the question around let's say, onetime items, I think it was actually quite a straightforward quarter. There's always a bit of product mix, et cetera, but it was, I would say, a normal quarter to a large extent. So that is on that. And then the run rate, I think what we're trying to say is that we see that we have managed to increase our gross margins and -- keeping costs stable here and working -- continuing to work on that.

在本季度，關於雲端軟體和服務方面，比如說一次性專案的問題，我認為實際上這是一個相當簡單的季度。產品組合總是會有些變化等等，但總的來說，我認為這是一個相當正常的季度。事情就是這樣。至於運行率，我認為我們想表達的是，我們已經成功提高了毛利率，並且保持了成本穩定，我們將繼續努力提高毛利率。

That gives us a good foundation going forward, then we don't give guidance on run rate margins per se for segments, et cetera. So -- but I think we are coming out here in the quarter. And as you have seen the step-up over the last quarters, we have come to a new level that I think is good going forward as well.

這為我們未來的發展奠定了良好的基礎，因此我們不會就各細分市場的運作率利潤率等給予具體指引。所以——但我認為我們本季會取得好成績。正如你們在過去幾季所看到的，我們已經達到了一個新的水平，我認為這對未來的發展也是一件好事。

The only thing I would add, Daniel, is the one big effect normally on the margins tend to be our IPR agreements, right, and that is -- nothing that impacts this quarter.

丹尼爾，我唯一要補充的是，通常對利潤率產生重大影響的往往是我們的智慧財產權協議，對吧，而這——對本季沒有任何影響。

Thanks, Sami. We'll move to the next question, please. Richard Kramer, Arete.

謝謝你，薩米。我們進入下一個問題。理查德·克雷默，Arete。

I don't know if you can flesh this out at all, but you mentioned that you want to keep a solid net cash position. And while you're considering what to do with the SEK52 billion you've piled up on the balance sheet, can you talk through what the parameters of a solid net cash position are? Is it a portion of your percentage of your OpEx? Is it something to do with the working capital demands? And can investors assume that Ericsson will not be deploying some of that SEK52 billion to M&A after your experience with Vonage?

我不知道你能不能把這個問題詳細解釋清楚，但你提到你想維持穩健的淨現金狀況。當您考慮如何處理資產負債表上累積的 520 億瑞典克朗時，您能否談談穩健的淨現金部位的參數是什麼？這是您營運支出的百分比嗎？這是否與營運資金需求有關？鑑於您與 Vonage 的合作經歷，投資者是否可以認為愛立信不會將 520 億瑞典克朗中的一部分用於併購？

When it comes to our net cash position, I think the message is that we want to have a solid net cash position, and that is foundational to ensure that we can maintain our R&D and our technology leadership, make sure that we have the trust of the customers. That is important that we, as partner with our customers, have the financial strength to deliver long-term over -- contracts and commitments we have together. So I think that is foundational for us. And then, of course, if there are volatilities happening in the market, we should also handle those kind of movements. So that is not a change in that sense.

就我們的淨現金狀況而言，我認為傳達的訊息是，我們希望擁有穩健的淨現金狀況，這對於確保我們能夠保持研發和技術領先地位，以及確保我們獲得客戶的信任至關重要。重要的是，作為客戶的合作夥伴，我們必須有足夠的財力來履行我們共同簽訂的長期合約和承諾。所以我認為這對我們來說至關重要。當然，如果市場出現波動，我們也應該應對這些波動。所以從這個意義上講，這並不是一種改變。

And then also, when it comes to -- but we are coming to a position where we talk now about excess cash and that we need to manage also here, after now the divestment of iconectiv coming into our net cash position. And that is the signal that -- and the comment we do here in the report now that this is work that has been ongoing by the Board since that was announced at the last AGM, and that work continues.

此外，說到——但我們現在要討論的是現金過剩問題，我們需要管理好這部分現金，因為出售 iconectiv 之後，我們的淨現金頭寸增加了。這表明——我們在這份報告中也指出，自上次年度股東大會宣布以來，董事會一直在進行這項工作，而且這項工作仍在繼續。

And I think there is a good word progressing. We give the highlight here now in the quarterly report that we're looking at it. We're looking at the options of extra dividend and/or buyback. But in Sweden, as we are a listed company here, the decision is made at the Annual General Meeting, which is taking place at spring. And normally, there is a proposal for the Board coming in connection with the fourth quarter report on that topic. So that's why it's coming at that stage.

我認為這是一個值得推廣的好詞。我們現在在季度報告中重點介紹我們正在研究的內容。我們正在考慮額外派發股利和/或股票回購的方案。但在瑞典，由於我們是一家上市公司，所以這項決定是在春季舉行的年度股東大會上做出的。通常情況下，董事會會在第四季度報告中收到一份關於該主題的提案。所以這就是它選擇在這個階段推出的原因。

And when it comes to your question around M&A as well, that has also not changed. We see -- we have the product portfolio. We need -- to a large extent, there could be some bolt-on acquisitions coming to -- into the product portfolio when it comes to geographical spread, but no major ones. So that is also unchanged.

至於你提出的關於併購的問題，這一點也沒有改變。我們明白了—我們擁有豐富的產品組合。我們需要——在很大程度上，可能會有一些補充性收購——來擴大產品組合的地域覆蓋範圍，但不需要大規模收購。所以這一點也沒有改變。

Thanks, Richard. We have time for one brief final question. So one more question, please, into the queue. Rob Sanders, Deutsche Bank.

謝謝你，理查。我們還有時間回答最後一個簡短的問題。那麼，請再提出一個問題。羅布桑德斯，德意志銀行。

I just had -- I was just interested in an update on Germany. Given there has been some push to swap out Huawei and ZTE this 2029 shutoff date, but there seems to be some resistance amongst the German telcos to actually go through with a full cleaning out of Chinese vendors. So I was just interested in just an update on that region where clearly, your share is below what it is globally.

我只是想了解德國的最新情況。儘管有人推動在 2029 年的關停日期前用華為和中興替換掉德國電信營運商，但德國電信營運商似乎對徹底清除中國供應商存在一些抵觸情緒。所以我想了解該地區的最新情況，很明顯，你們的市佔率低於全球平均水準。

Börje, anything you'd add?

Börje，你還有什麼要補充的嗎？

Yeag. No, you're right. I would first say that there is [certainty] to swap out Chinese vendors by 2029. So that you should keep in mind, that's why it's slow moving. And I would say, there is no real progress on that. But the legislation is rather clear that it allows high-risk vendors in the 5G network beyond 2029.

葉格。不，你說得對。首先我想說的是，到 2029 年，完全可以確定會替換中國供應商。所以你要記住，這就是它進展緩慢的原因。我認為，在這方面並沒有任何實質進展。但該法案相當明確地允許高風險供應商在 2029 年以後繼續參與 5G 網路建設。

Thanks, Rob. Thanks for everyone for joining us. That concludes the conference call today.

謝謝你，羅伯。感謝各位的參與。今天的電話會議到此結束。