日月光投資控股 (ASX) 2020 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Hello. I am Ken Hsiang, the Head of Investor Relations for ASE Technology Holdings. Welcome to our fourth quarter and full year 2020 earnings release. Thank you for attending our conference call today.

你好。我是 ASE Technology Holdings 投資者關係主管 Ken Hsiang。歡迎來到我們的 2020 年第四季度和全年收益發布。感謝您參加我們今天的電話會議。

Please refer to our safe harbor notice on Page 2. All participants consent to having their voices and questions broadcast via participation of this event.

請參閱我們在第 2 頁上的安全港通知。所有參與者都同意通過參與本次活動來廣播他們的聲音和問題。

I would like to remind everyone on this call that the presentation that follows may contain forward-looking statements. These forward-looking statements are subject to a high degree of risk and our actual results may differ materially. For the purposes of this presentation, our dollar figures are generally stated in New Taiwan dollars, unless otherwise indicated.

我想在這次電話會議上提醒大家，接下來的演示文稿可能包含前瞻性陳述。這些前瞻性陳述存在高度風險，我們的實際結果可能存在重大差異。就本報告而言，除非另有說明，否則我們的美元數字通常以新台幣表示。

As a Taiwan-based company, our financials are presented in accordance with Taiwan IFRS. Results presented using Taiwan IFRS may differ materially from results using other accounting standards, including those presented by our subsidiary using Chinese GAAP.

作為一家台灣公司，我們的財務按照台灣國際財務報告準則呈報。使用台灣 IFRS 呈現的結果可能與使用其他會計準則的結果存在重大差異，包括我們的子公司使用中國公認會計準則呈現的結果。

I'm joined today by Dr. Tien Wu, our COO; and Joseph Tung, our CFO. For today's call, I will be going over our financial results. Tien will be providing a business recap and Joseph will provide financial highlights and our guidance. We will have a Q&A session following the prepared remarks.

今天，我們的首席運營官 Tien Wu 博士加入了我的行列；和我們的首席財務官 Joseph Tung。對於今天的電話會議，我將回顧我們的財務業績。 Tien 將提供業務回顧，Joseph 將提供財務亮點和我們的指導。我們將在準備好的評論之後進行問答環節。

Please turn to Page 3, where you'll find our fourth quarter's consolidated results. Intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses have been eliminated during consolidation. For the fourth quarter, we recorded fully diluted EPS of $2.30 and basic EPS of $2.35. Consolidated net revenue increased 21% quarter-over-quarter and 28% year-over-year. We had a gross profit of $23.2 billion, with a gross margin of 15.7%. Our gross margin declined by 0.3 percentage points sequentially and 1.4 percentage points year-over-year. Both margin declines are principally the result of higher EMS business mix. Our operating expenses increased by $1.5 billion during the fourth quarter to $12.1 billion as a result of higher profit sharing expenses issued during this strong quarter. Despite the absolute dollar increase, our operating expense percentage declined 0.5 percentage points sequentially and 1.5 percentage points year-over-year to 8.1%.

請轉到第 3 頁，您將在其中找到我們第四季度的綜合結果。我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易已在合併期間消除。對於第四季度，我們記錄了 2.30 美元的完全攤薄每股收益和 2.35 美元的基本每股收益。綜合淨收入環比增長 21%，同比增長 28%。我們的毛利潤為 232 億美元，毛利率為 15.7%。我們的毛利率環比下降 0.3 個百分點，同比下降 1.4 個百分點。兩次利潤率下降主要是由於 EMS 業務組合增加所致。由於在這個強勁的季度發布了更高的利潤分享費用，我們的運營費用在第四季度增加了 15 億美元，達到 121 億美元。儘管美元絕對增長，但我們的運營費用百分比環比下降 0.5 個百分點，同比下降 1.5 個百分點至 8.1%。

Operating profit was up $2.1 billion sequentially and $2.5 billion year-over-year. Sequentially, operating margin increased 0.2 percentage points to 7.6% and increased 0.1 percentage points year-over-year. During the quarter, we had a net nonoperating gain of $1.4 billion. This amount primarily consists of gains related to the sale of our Fujian plant of $0.8 billion, gain on sale of operating assets of $0.5 billion and net foreign exchange in investment income of $0.2 billion. This amount was offset in part by net interest expense of $0.6 billion.

營業利潤環比增長 21 億美元，同比增長 25 億美元。隨後，營業利潤率增長 0.2 個百分點至 7.6%，同比增長 0.1 個百分點。本季度，我們的非經營性淨收益為 14 億美元。該金額主要包括與出售我們的福建工廠相關的 8 億美元收益、5 億美元的經營資產出售收益和 2 億美元的投資外匯淨收益。這一數額被 6 億美元的淨利息支出部分抵消。

Tax expense for the quarter was $1.8 billion. The effective tax rate for the fourth quarter was 15%. The decline in the effective tax rate this quarter was the result of research and development tax credits that are able to be recognized during the quarter.

本季度的稅收支出為 18 億美元。第四季度的有效稅率為 15%。本季度有效稅率的下降是本季度能夠確認的研發稅收抵免的結果。

Net income for the quarter was $10 billion, representing an improvement of $3.3 billion sequentially and an improvement of $3.6 billion year-over-year. At the holding company level, we estimate that the strengthening NT dollar had a 0.9 percentage point negative impact to gross margin sequentially and a 2.3 percentage point negative impact year-over-year. As a rule of thumb, for every percent the NT dollar appreciates, we see a corresponding 0.4 percentage point impact to our holding company gross margin.

本季度淨收入為 100 億美元，環比增長 33 億美元，同比增長 36 億美元。在控股公司層面，我們估計新台幣走強對毛利率造成環比負面影響 0.9 個百分點，同比負面影響為 2.3 個百分點。根據經驗，新台幣每升值百分之一，我們看到對我們控股公司毛利率的相應影響為 0.4 個百分點。

On the bottom of the page, we provide key P&L line items without the inclusion of PPA-related expenses. Consolidated gross profit, excluding PPA expenses, would be $24.2 billion, with a 16.2% gross margin. Operating profit would be $12.4 billion, with an operating margin of 8.3%. Net profit would be $11.2 billion, with a net margin of 7.5%. Basic EPS, excluding PPA expenses, would be $2.63.

在頁面底部，我們提供了關鍵的損益表項目，但不包括與 PPA 相關的費用。不包括 PPA 費用的合併毛利潤為 242 億美元，毛利率為 16.2%。營業利潤為 124 億美元，營業利潤率為 8.3%。淨利潤為 112 億美元，淨利潤率為 7.5%。不包括 PPA 費用的基本每股收益為 2.63 美元。

Please refer to Page 4. Here, you will find the 2020 consolidated full year result. Fully diluted EPS for the year was $6.31, while basic EPS was $6.47. For 2020, consolidated net revenues grew by 15% as compared with 2019. ATM revenues grew 10% while EMS revenues grew 23% annually. In 2020, our gross margin improved 0.7 percentage points to 16.3%, principally as a result of stronger loading. This margin improvement was achieved despite higher EMS product mix and negative impact from the strong NT dollar.

請參閱第 4 頁。在這裡，您將找到 2020 年綜合全年業績。全年完全攤薄後每股收益為 6.31 美元，而基本每股收益為 6.47 美元。與 2019 年相比，2020 年的綜合淨收入增長了 15%。ATM 收入增長 10%，而 EMS 收入每年增長 23%。 2020 年，我們的毛利率提高了 0.7 個百分點至 16.3%，主要是由於負載增加。儘管 EMS 產品組合增加和新台幣走強帶來了負面影響，但仍實現了利潤率改善。

Operating expenses increased to $2.3 billion for the year and came in at $43.1 billion. We were able to lower our operating expense percentage by 0.9 percentage points to 9%. Operating profit for the year was $34.9 billion, improving by 38% to $11.4 billion. Operating margin improved by 1.6 percentage points as a result of increased gross profit margins with a lower operating expense percentage.

全年運營費用增至 23 億美元，達到 431 億美元。我們能夠將運營費用百分比降低 0.9 個百分點至 9%。全年營業利潤為 349 億美元，增長 38% 至 114 億美元。由於毛利率增加和營業費用百分比降低，營業利潤率提高了 1.6 個百分點。

Total tax expense was $6.5 billion. The effective tax rate for the year was 18.1%. During the year, we confirmed the deductibility of certain holding company level expenses for tax purposes. This resulted in [attach] of tax assets during the year, leading to a lower effective tax rate. For ongoing purposes, we believe our current effective tax rate to be about 22%.

總稅費為 65 億美元。本年度的有效稅率為 18.1%。在這一年中，我們確認了某些控股公司層面的費用可用於稅收目的的扣除。這導致年內[附加]稅收資產，導致有效稅率降低。出於持續的目的，我們認為我們目前的有效稅率約為 22%。

Net income increased by $10.7 billion to $27.6 billion. On a full year basis, we estimate that the strengthening NT dollar had a 1.8 percentage point impact to gross margin. Removing the effect of PPA depreciation, our gross margin would be 17.1%, our operating margin would be 8.3%, our EPS would be $7.60.

淨收入增加 107 億美元至 276 億美元。按全年計算，我們估計新台幣走強對毛利率有 1.8 個百分點的影響。除去 PPA 折舊的影響，我們的毛利率為 17.1%，我們的營業利潤率為 8.3%，我們的每股收益為 7.60 美元。

On Page 5 is our ATM P&L. It is worth noting here that the ATM revenue reported here contains revenue eliminated at the holding company level related to intercompany transactions between our ATM and EMS businesses. During the quarter, we did see 3 major challenges. First, the most important challenge was the strengthening NT dollar, appreciating 2.3% from Q3 to Q4. A strengthening NT dollar environment is generally negative for us. As a rule of thumb, for every percent the NT dollar appreciates, we see a corresponding 0.5 percentage point impact in our ATM gross margin. Second, the strength in the current market has created tightness across large parts of the semiconductor manufacturing chain. We are seeing longer delivery times for many products, including reframes, [substrate] components, capital equipment as well as upstream wafer supply from our partner foundries. As a result, we have seen some higher manufacturing costs. But for the most part, with the positive ASP environment, we have been better able to pass along these cost increases. Finally, the current COVID environment continues to make operations and logistics difficult. However, being mostly Asia-based, we have been less impacted than many operations elsewhere in the world. And to a certain extent, because of our ability to provide supply chain stability during COVID, our businesses have been performing relatively well.

第 5 頁是我們的 ATM 損益表。值得注意的是，此處報告的 ATM 收入包含在控股公司層面消除的與我們的 ATM 和 EMS 業務之間的公司間交易相關的收入。在本季度，我們確實看到了 3 個主要挑戰。首先，最重要的挑戰是新台幣走強，從第三季度到第四季度升值了 2.3%。新台幣走強的環境通常對我們不利。根據經驗，新台幣每升值百分之一，我們的 ATM 毛利率就會相應下降 0.5 個百分點。其次，當前市場的強勢造成了半導體製造鏈大部分環節的緊張。我們看到許多產品的交付時間更長，包括重構、[基板]組件、資本設備以及我們合作夥伴代工廠的上游晶圓供應。結果，我們看到了一些更高的製造成本。但在大多數情況下，在積極的 ASP 環境下，我們能夠更好地轉嫁這些成本增加。最後，當前的 COVID 環境繼續使運營和物流變得困難。然而，由於主要位於亞洲，我們受到的影響比世界其他地方的許多業務要小。在一定程度上，由於我們在 COVID 期間提供穩定供應鏈的能力，我們的業務表現相對較好。

From the business perspective, throughout the entirety of the fourth quarter, most business lines within our ATM business ran pretty much at full capacity. Strength was across the board in all product categories. Wirebond and advanced packaging, consumer, communications and computing, even our test business recovered more rapidly than expected. Heading into the first quarter, things are loaded and running fairly smoothly. We continue to see a strong loading pattern with a positive ASP environment. More on this from Dr. Wu a bit later.

從業務角度來看，在整個第四季度，我們的 ATM 業務中的大多數業務線幾乎都在滿負荷運行。所有產品類別的實力都是全面的。引線鍵合和先進封裝、消費、通信和計算，甚至我們的測試業務都比預期恢復得更快。進入第一季度，事情已經加載並運行得相當順利。我們繼續看到強勁的加載模式和積極的 ASP 環境。稍後吳博士會對此進行更多介紹。

For the fourth quarter 2020, revenues for our ATM business were $17.8 billion, up $1 billion from the previous quarter and up $3.5 billion from the same period last year. This represents a 1% increase sequentially and a 5% increase year-over-year. Our ATM revenues came in ahead of our expectations due to higher-than-expected loading and a more positive ASP environment, offset in part by a stronger NT dollar. On a U.S. dollar basis, our ATM revenues grew by 3.7% sequentially. Gross profit for our ATM business was $16.5 billion, up $2 billion sequentially and $0.8 billion year-over-year. $0.9 billion of this increase was due to a onetime inventory related write-off during the third quarter. The remaining sequential and year-over-year improvement in gross profit are primarily the result of higher loading levels.

2020 年第四季度，我們的 ATM 業務收入為 178 億美元，比上一季度增加 10 億美元，比去年同期增加 35 億美元。這意味著環比增長 1%，同比增長 5%。由於高於預期的負載和更積極的 ASP 環境，我們的 ATM 收入超出了我們的預期，部分被新台幣走強所抵消。按美元計算，我們的 ATM 收入環比增長 3.7%。我們 ATM 業務的毛利潤為 165 億美元，環比增長 20 億美元，同比增長 8 億美元。其中 9 億美元的增長是由於第三季度的一次性庫存相關沖銷。毛利潤的其餘環比和同比增長主要是由於更高的裝載水平。

Gross profit margin for our ATM business was 22.6%, up 2.4 percentage points sequentially and down 0.1 percentage points year-over-year. The inventory write-down in the third quarter accounted for 1.2 percentage points of gross margin improvement in the fourth quarter. The remaining improvement was the result of stronger loading and a positive ASP environment, offset in part by the strengthening NT dollar.

ATM業務毛利率為22.6%，環比上升2.4個百分點，同比下降0.1個百分點。第三季度的庫存減記佔第四季度毛利率改善的1.2個百分點。其餘的改善是由於更強勁的負載和積極的 ASP 環境，部分被新台幣走強所抵消。

During the fourth quarter, operating expenses were $8.5 billion, up $0.7 billion sequentially and $0.2 billion year-over-year. The sequential and year-over-year increases were primarily driven by higher employee bonuses tied to corporate performance. Operating margin was 11%, improving 1.5 percentage points sequentially and 0.4 percentage points year-over-year. We estimate that the strengthening NT dollar had a 1.2 percentage point negative impact to our ATM gross margin sequentially and a 2.9 percentage point impact year-over-year.

第四季度，運營費用為 85 億美元，環比增長 7 億美元，同比增長 2 億美元。環比和同比增長主要是由於與公司業績相關的員工獎金增加。營業利潤率為 11%，環比提高 1.5 個百分點，同比提高 0.4 個百分點。我們估計新台幣走強對我們的 ATM 毛利率環比負面影響為 1.2 個百分點，同比影響為 2.9 個百分點。

Without the impact of PPA-related depreciation and amortization, ATM gross profit margin would be 23.9% and operating profit margin would be 12.6%.

如果沒有與 PPA 相關的折舊和攤銷的影響，ATM 毛利率為 23.9%，營業利潤率為 12.6%。

On Page 6, we have our ATM's full year P&L. We're fairly proud of our 2020 full year ATM results. On this page, you can see that we saw significant improvement in all aspects of our business. And bear in mind, all of this achievement was done despite the loss of a 20% run rate customer in September. Revenues for our ATM business increased by 12%, with our packaging business and test businesses up 12% and 11%, respectively. At the outset of the year, we did expect to see our test business to significantly outgrow our assembly business. However, the AAR impact was much more harshly felt by our test business. And as a result, we did have to rebalance our tester capacity.

在第 6 頁，我們有 ATM 的全年損益表。我們為 2020 年全年 ATM 業績感到相當自豪。在此頁面上，您可以看到我們在業務的各個方面都取得了顯著進步。請記住，儘管在 9 月份失去了 20% 的運行率客戶，但所有這些成就都是完成的。我們的 ATM 業務收入增長了 12%，我們的包裝業務和測試業務分別增長了 12% 和 11%。今年年初，我們確實預計我們的測試業務將大大超過我們的組裝業務。但是，我們的測試業務對 AAR 的影響要強烈得多。因此，我們確實不得不重新平衡我們的測試人員能力。

Gross profit for the year improved 19% to $59.4 billion. Gross margin was up 1.3 percentage points, primarily as a result of higher loading, offset in part by NT dollar appreciation. Operating expenses were up for the year by $0.9 billion. The increases in operating expenses are related to bonuses tied to ATM business performance. Meanwhile, our operating expense percentage declined 0.9 percentage points. Operating income improved 45% to $27.6 billion, with operating margin improving 2.2 percentage points to 9.8%. On a full year basis, we estimate that the strengthening NT dollar had a 2.3 percentage point impact to gross margins. Without the impact of PPA expenses, gross profit margin would be 22.5% and operating margin would be 11.5%.

全年毛利潤增長 19% 至 594 億美元。毛利率上升 1.3 個百分點，主要是由於較高的負荷，部分被新台幣升值所抵消。全年運營費用增加了 9 億美元。運營費用的增加與與 ATM 業務績效相關的獎金有關。同時，我們的營業費用百分比下降了 0.9 個百分點。營業收入增長 45% 至 276 億美元，營業利潤率增長 2.2 個百分點至 9.8%。按全年計算，我們估計新台幣走強對毛利率有 2.3 個百分點的影響。如果沒有 PPA 費用的影響，毛利率為 22.5%，營業利潤率為 11.5%。

On Page 7, you'll find a graphical representation of our ATM P&L. And despite the significant impact of this U.S. EAR, we took a hit on our third quarter margins and have recovered. However, we do believe the appreciating NT dollar has flattened out our recent year margin performance. Without such NT dollar appreciation, gross margin would have otherwise made a more pronounced move up into the right of this chart.

在第 7 頁，您會發現我們的 ATM 損益表的圖形表示。儘管這次美國 EAR 產生了重大影響，但我們第三季度的利潤率受到了打擊並且已經恢復。然而，我們確實相信新台幣的升值已經使我們最近一年的利潤率表現趨於平緩。如果沒有這樣的新台幣升值，毛利率本來會更明顯地向上移動到該圖表的右側。

On Page 8 is our ATM revenue by market segment. We understand that this may run contrary to recent interpretations of the overall market environment. But we would like to point out here that our Communications segment has actually been trending down as a percentage of our overall business. Though Communications demand is healthy, what we are actually seeing is our automotive, consumer and other business segments rebounding.

第 8 頁是我們按細分市場劃分的 ATM 收入。我們理解這可能與近期對整體市場環境的解讀相悖。但我們想在此指出，我們的通信部門實際上一直在下降，占我們整體業務的百分比。儘管通信需求是健康的，但我們實際看到的是我們的汽車、消費者和其他業務領域正在反彈。

On Page 9, you will find our ATM revenue by service type. As mentioned previously, we rebalanced our test capacity after the U.S. EAR went into effect. Here, you can see the negative impact that the U.S. EAR had on our test business, with its revenue share declining 2 percentage points. As expected, our wirebond business has picked up. Meanwhile, our advanced service type declined 2 percentage points.

在第 9 頁，您會發現我們按服務類型劃分的 ATM 收入。如前所述，在美國 EAR 生效後，我們重新平衡了我們的測試能力。在這裡，您可以看到美國 EAR 對我們的測試業務產生的負面影響，其收入份額下降了 2 個百分點。正如預期的那樣，我們的引線鍵合業務有所回升。同時，我們的高級服務類型下降了 2 個百分點。

On Page 10, you can see the fourth quarter and full year results with our EMS business, USI. The information we provide in regards to USI may differ materially from the information directly provided by our subsidiary, as they report independently using Chinese GAAP. For our EMS business, demand was stronger than anticipated, driven by strong SiP demand. During the quarter, we completed our acquisition of the Asteelflash Group, or AFT. Their results are being fully consolidated as of December 2020. Currently, AFT represents about 10% of our ongoing EMS revenues. We do not expect to report AFT details in future earnings.

在第 10 頁，您可以看到我們的 EMS 業務 USI 的第四季度和全年業績。我們提供的有關 USI 的信息可能與我們的子公司直接提供的信息存在重大差異，因為它們使用中國公認會計原則獨立報告。對於我們的 EMS 業務，在 SiP 需求強勁的推動下，需求強於預期。在本季度，我們完成了對 Asteelflash Group 或 AFT 的收購。截至 2020 年 12 月，他們的業績正在全面整合。目前，AFT 約占我們持續 EMS 收入的 10%。我們預計不會在未來收益中報告 AFT 詳細信息。

During the fourth quarter, EMS revenues increased 49% sequentially, primarily because of our seasonal business ramp and strong demand for SiP products. EMS revenues increased 62% year-over-year as a result of stronger demand for SiP products. Gross profit margin for the EMS business unit came in at 8.8%, which is a decline of 0.9 percentage points sequentially and 0.1 percentage points year-over-year. The market declines are primarily the result of product mix changes. Our EMS business unit's fourth quarter operating expenses were $3.5 billion, increasing $0.7 billion sequentially and $0.8 billion year-over-year. Operating expenses increased primarily as a result of increased employee profit sharing. Our operating expense percentage was 4.5%, down 0.8 percentage points sequentially and 1.2 percentage points year-over-year. Our EMS operating profit improved $1.2 billion sequentially and $1.9 billion year-over-year. These improvements were primarily due to increased seasonal demand for SiP products.

第四季度，EMS 收入環比增長 49%，主要是因為我們的季節性業務增長和對 SiP 產品的強勁需求。由於對 SiP 產品的需求增加，EMS 收入同比增長 62%。 EMS業務部門的毛利率為8.8%，環比下降0.9個百分點，同比下降0.1個百分點。市場下滑主要是產品組合變化的結果。我們的 EMS 業務部門第四季度運營費用為 35 億美元，環比增長 7 億美元，同比增長 8 億美元。營業費用增加主要是由於員工利潤分成增加。我們的營業費用百分比為 4.5%，環比下降 0.8 個百分點，同比下降 1.2 個百分點。我們的 EMS 營業利潤環比增長 12 億美元，同比增長 19 億美元。這些改進主要是由於對 SiP 產品的季節性需求增加。

Our EMS operating margin was 4.4%, which is flat sequentially and up 1.2 percentage points year-over-year. On a full year perspective, our EMS business delivered a banner year, driven by strong SiP sales. On a full year perspective, our EMS business revenues increased 23%, gross profit increased 29%, gross profit margin also improved 0.4 percentage points to 9.2%. Operating margin increased 0.9 percentage points to 3.8%.

我們的 EMS 營業利潤率為 4.4%，環比持平，同比增長 1.2 個百分點。從全年來看，在 SiP 銷售強勁的推動下，我們的 EMS 業務取得了豐收的一年。全年來看，我們的EMS業務收入增長23%，毛利增長29%，毛利率也提高0.4個百分點至9.2%。營業利潤率增長 0.9 個百分點至 3.8%。

On Page 11, you will find a graphical representation of our EMS revenue by application. With sales increasing 49% sequentially, interpreting this chart gets a bit tricky. What's fairly straightforward to see is that our Communications segment increased by 5 percentage points as a result of product seasonality. Other categories generally grew in absolute dollars. However, their growth was not as pronounced as that of the Communications segment.

在第 11 頁，您將找到按應用劃分的 EMS 收入的圖形表示。隨著銷售額連續增長 49%，解釋這張圖表有點棘手。顯而易見的是，由於產品季節性，我們的通信部門增加了 5 個百分點。其他類別通常以絕對美元增長。然而，它們的增長並不像通信部門那樣明顯。

On Page 12, you will find key line items from our balance sheet. At the end of the quarter, we had cash, cash equivalents and current financial assets of $56.4 billion. Our interest-bearing debt decreased $15.5 billion to $209.1 billion. Total unused credit lines amounted to $275.2 billion. Our EBITDA for the quarter was $26.1 billion. EBITDA for the year was $90.9 billion. Our net debt-to-equity ratio for the quarter dropped to 65%, the higher end of our targeted range.

在第 12 頁，您將找到我們資產負債表中的關鍵項目。在本季度末，我們擁有 564 億美元的現金、現金等價物和流動金融資產。我們的有息債務減少了 155 億美元至 2091 億美元。未使用的信貸額度總額為 2752 億美元。我們本季度的 EBITDA 為 261 億美元。當年的 EBITDA 為 909 億美元。本季度我們的淨負債權益比率降至 65%，這是我們目標範圍的上限。

As of the end of 2020, our ownership of USI, listed on the Shanghai Stock Exchange under the ticker number 60231, is 73.4%.

截至2020年底，我們在上海證券交易所上市，股票代碼60231的環旭電子的持股比例為73.4%。

On Page 13, you will find our equipment capital expenditures. Machinery and equipment capital expenditures for the fourth quarter totaled $379 million, of which $296 million were used for packaging, $16 million for testing, $19 million for EMS and $4 million for interconnect materials. For the full year, machinery and equipment capital expenditures were $1.7 billion. $1.1 billion was spent on packaging, $0.4 billion on test and $0.2 billion on EMS. We continue to provide our EBITDA in U.S. dollar here as a reference. We believe that the company's EBITDA relative to our equipment CapEx serves as a key financial performance metric for the company.

在第 13 頁，您將找到我們的設備資本支出。第四季度機械設備資本支出總計 3.79 億美元，其中 2.96 億美元用於封裝，1600 萬美元用於測試，1900 萬美元用於 EMS，400 萬美元用於互連材料。全年，機械和設備資本支出為 17 億美元。 11 億美元用於封裝，4 億美元用於測試，2 億美元用於 EMS。我們繼續在此處以美元提供我們的 EBITDA 作為參考。我們認為，公司的 EBITDA 相對於我們的設備資本支出是公司的關鍵財務業績指標。

I would like to turn the floor over to Dr. Tien Wu.

我想把發言權交給吳天博士。

Hi, everyone. To begin with, I would like to wish all of you a Happy Chinese New Year. Here, I would like to provide 2 updates. The first part will be a business recap, mainly addressing some of the comments which I made at our Q3 earnings calls back to October 30 of last year.

大家好。首先，我要祝大家中國新年快樂。在這裡，我想提供 2 個更新。第一部分將是業務回顧，主要針對我在去年 10 月 30 日的第三季度財報電話會議上發表的一些評論。

First item, the EAR-affected ATM business has been recovered by Q4 of last year versus our previous commentary and expectation to be fully covered by end of Q1 of this year. So that is good news.

第一項，受 EAR 影響的 ATM 業務已在去年第四季度恢復，而我們之前的評論和預期將在今年第一季度末完全覆蓋。所以這是個好消息。

Second item, capacity remains tight. Last time, I made a comment that the wirebond shortage will be at least to Q2 of this year. Right now, we're slightly adjusting our view. We believe the wirebond shortage will be throughout the whole year of 2021.

二是產能依然緊張。上次，我評論說銲線短缺至少會持續到今年第二季度。現在，我們正在稍微調整我們的觀點。我們認為銲線短缺將貫穿 2021 年全年。

The machine delivery schedule, last time we talked about between 6 to 8 months. Right now, we're slightly elongated, the machine delivery lead time now is more like 6 to 9 months.

機器交貨時間表，上次我們談到6到8個月之間。現在，我們稍微拉長了一點，現在的機器交貨時間更像是 6 到 9 個月。

CapEx. The Holdco 2020, our machinery CapEx was USD 1.7 billion versus our previous estimate of $1.8 billion. The $0.1 billion was mainly due to the machine delivery schedule tied to the machine lead time. For this year, we believe our machinery CapEx will not be lower than $1.7 billion. The actual number will be depending on the business landscape and how do we collaborate with our customers as well as the machine delivery schedule. 2020, the group SiP business grew nicely, 50% year-on-year to USD 3.5 billion. We made a comment, target our incremental SiP revenue from new customers or new project should exceed our target of $100 million. In Q3 time frame, we made a comment that it will be 3x of $100 million target. The actual came in $386 million. That is in year 2000 from new SiP customers and projects, we have accrued $386 million of revenue. I would like to make a comment on the SiP momentum. For 2021, this year, we do believe the momentum will continue, and we will have new SiP customers and new SiP projects in the north of $400 million. That will be the -- a very, very nice momentum and ramp.

資本支出。在 Holdco 2020 中，我們的機械資本支出為 17 億美元，而我們之前的估計為 18 億美元。 1 億美元主要是由於與機器交貨時間相關的機器交付計劃。今年，我們相信我們的機械資本支出不會低於 17 億美元。實際數量將取決於業務環境以及我們如何與客戶合作以及機器交付時間表。 2020年，集團SiP業務增長良好，同比增長50%至35億美元。我們發表了評論，目標是我們從新客戶或新項目中獲得的增量 SiP 收入應該超過我們 1 億美元的目標。在第三季度的時間框架內，我們評論說它將是 1 億美元目標的 3 倍。實際收入為 3.86 億美元。也就是說，在 2000 年，我們從新的 SiP 客戶和項目中獲得了 3.86 億美元的收入。我想對 SiP 的勢頭髮表評論。對於 2021 年，我們確實相信這一勢頭將繼續下去，我們將擁有超過 4 億美元的新 SiP 客戶和新的 SiP 項目。這將是一個非常非常好的勢頭和坡道。

With that note, I would like to turn to the next page. I would like to give you highlight for the 2021 business outlook. For this year, we expect quarter-to-quarter growth at a HOLDCO level. In other words, after Q1 we expect sequential growth in Q2, followed by Q3 and Q4. The second message here is for this year, we expect at the group level, our operating margin will further expand by 1.5 to 2 percentage points.

有了那個註釋，我想翻到下一頁。我想重點介紹一下 2021 年的業務前景。今年，我們預計 HOLDCO 水平的季度環比增長。換句話說，在第一季度之後，我們預計第二季度會出現連續增長，其次是第三季度和第四季度。這裡的第二個信息是今年，我們預計在集團層面，我們的營業利潤率將進一步擴大 1.5 至 2 個百分點。

Next, let me make some comment on the ATM and also the EMS separately. The semi-logic market growth, we estimate between 5% to 10%. We're seeing a very strong ATM run rate. As a matter of fact, we just closed our January. In our Q1, our run rate actually is the same as Q4 of last year. Just for your information, we have never seen this kind of run rate in the last 30 years in semiconductor industry. The ATM 2021 full year growth, we were target at 2x of semi-logic market growth in U.S. dollar terms. This is the current expectation. The 2020 ATM operating margin, that Ken just went through with you, has improved 2.2 to 2.3 percentage points. For 2021, we expect this margin expansion will continue. As a matter of fact, our margin expansion in 2021 will be better than the 2.3 percentage points, mainly from SPIL synergy, economies of scale, efficiency improvement as well as technology leadership, despite the foreign exchange impact for NT against U.S. dollar. The EMS business should have a higher year-on-year growth rate than our ATM business with operating margin target at 4%, another slight improvement.

接下來，讓我分別對 ATM 和 EMS 做一些評論。半邏輯市場增長，我們估計在 5% 到 10% 之間。我們看到了非常強勁的 ATM 運行率。事實上，我們剛剛結束了我們的一月份。在我們的第一季度，我們的運行率實際上與去年第四季度相同。僅供參考，我們在過去 30 年的半導體行業中從未見過這種運行速度。 ATM 2021 全年增長，以美元計算，我們的目標是半邏輯市場增長的 2 倍。這是目前的預期。 Ken 剛剛與您一起經歷的 2020 年 ATM 營業利潤率提高了 2.2 至 2.3 個百分點。對於 2021 年，我們預計這種利潤率擴張將繼續。事實上，我們在 2021 年的利潤率增長將好於 2.3 個百分點，主要來自 SPIL 協同效應、規模經濟、效率提升以及技術領先地位，儘管新台幣兌美元匯率受到影響。 EMS 業務的同比增長率應高於我們的 ATM 業務，營業利潤率目標為 4%，再次略有改善。

Future growth engines to drive the rising trend into the next 5 years. I put 5 years here with some optimism. From where we stand right now, I think the 2021 loading is very strong, and we're quite confident in the that. Right now, all our optimism has expanded into 2022. I would like to make a comment about our next 5 years with our growth strength and growth strategy. I think in 2020 as well as in 2021, we will demonstrate efficiency in ramping up and the overall supply chain management to all of our key customers and to our shareholders and our investors. In 2020, we have pandemic as well as supply chain constraint at all levels. The ramping up at such a dramatic rate was not a simple challenge. Also, we have replaced one of our high [runners] due to the EAR effect. The retooling, recalibration, readjustment of our manufacturing portfolio as well as requalification for many of the products asked by our customers was not an easy task.

未來的增長引擎將推動未來5年的上升趨勢。我帶著一些樂觀的態度在這裡放了 5 年。從我們目前的情況來看，我認為 2021 年的負載非常強勁，我們對此非常有信心。現在，我們所有的樂觀情緒都擴大到了 2022 年。我想就我們未來 5 年的增長實力和增長戰略發表評論。我認為，在 2020 年和 2021 年，我們將向所有主要客戶、股東和投資者展示提升和整體供應鏈管理的效率。 2020年，我們在各個層面都有大流行和供應鏈限制。以如此驚人的速度增長並不是一個簡單的挑戰。此外，由於 EAR 效應，我們更換了一位高 [跑步者]。對我們的製造組合進行重組、重新校準、重新調整以及對我們客戶要求的許多產品進行重新認證並非易事。

So in 2020, we have clearly demonstrated our capability to ramp up as well as procure necessary materials in a very adverse and challenging environment. We're confident we will repeat the same thing in 2021, and that will give a boost of confidence to our key customers and securing the future business based on that performance.

因此，在 2020 年，我們已經清楚地展示了我們在非常不利和充滿挑戰的環境中增加和採購必要材料的能力。我們有信心，我們將在 2021 年重複同樣的事情，這將增強我們的主要客戶的信心，並根據該業績確保未來的業務。

Following that comment, we do see very strong loading agreements, mostly 2 years as well as very strong NPI pipeline, which covers a wide variety of application, namely 5G, SiP, sensors, and very strong ramp in automotive as well as smart devices and edge devices.

在該評論之後，我們確實看到了非常強大的加載協議，主要是 2 年，以及非常強大的 NPI 管道，涵蓋了廣泛的應用，即 5G、SiP、傳感器，以及非常強勁的汽車以及智能設備和邊緣設備。

We made a comment previously talking about our LiDAR factory or the fully automated line. At the end of 2020, we had a total of 18 LiDAR factories. In this year, we have more than 25. The comment I would like to make here is those LiDAR factories proven to be very efficient and very useful in ramping up new volume, particularly with customers who have to do this remote. All of the automated -- the LiDAR factory or the automated lines are in very, very high demand from 2 types of customers, either high reliability seeking or beta seeking for a variety of reasons. Our LiDAR factory can provide real-time information in a very detailed manner to our customers either in medical, automotive or high reliability applications. We're seeing more volumes demanding multiple dies and sensors. And we believe this will fall into ASE's sweet spot. In other words, since 2013, we have been building a portfolio covering multiple dies as well as different packaging, algorithm, methods, process, material set for all kinds of sensors. And we're seeing huge demand due to the IoT, edge device and smart device enabled by the 5G.

我們之前發表了評論，談到我們的 LiDAR 工廠或全自動生產線。 2020年底，我們共有18家LiDAR工廠。今年，我們有超過 25 家。我想在這裡發表的評論是，那些被證明在增加新產量方面非常高效且非常有用的 LiDAR 工廠，尤其是對於必須進行遠程操作的客戶而言。所有的自動化——LiDAR 工廠或自動化生產線對 2 類客戶的需求非常非常高，要么出於各種原因尋求高可靠性，要么尋求 beta。我們的 LiDAR 工廠可以為醫療、汽車或高可靠性應用領域的客戶提供非常詳細的實時信息。我們看到越來越多的產品需要多個芯片和傳感器。我們相信這將成為 ASE 的最佳選擇。換言之，自 2013 年以來，我們一直在構建一個產品組合，涵蓋多種芯片以及各種傳感器的不同封裝、算法、方法、工藝、材料集。由於 5G 支持的物聯網、邊緣設備和智能設備，我們看到了巨大的需求。

In net, what ASE is trying to do is to build a pervasive foundation and to be the preferred choice for all high-volume applications. We do see that the pandemic, learn from home, play from home, work from home, has created a slight uptick on the overall semiconductor demand. With the high-performance computing, the cloud, e-commerce as well as the 5G load latency and high data rate, we're seeing more application released into the smart device, electrical vehicle and all of the IoT application. With that, the traditional packages will be expanding to multiple die and sensors. We believe the OSAT market we are taking a clear leadership. Also because of our performance in economy of scales, we have better traction with all of our key customers, and this describes why we're having such a demand curve in 2020 as well as 2021.

在網絡中，ASE 試圖做的是建立一個普遍的基礎，並成為所有大容量應用程序的首選。我們確實看到，大流行、在家學習、在家玩耍、在家工作，使整體半導體需求略有上升。隨著高性能計算、雲計算、電子商務以及 5G 負載延遲和高數據速率，我們看到越來越多的應用程序發佈到智能設備、電動汽車和所有物聯網應用程序中。這樣一來，傳統封裝將擴展到多個芯片和傳感器。我們相信我們在 OSAT 市場上處於領先地位。同樣由於我們在規模經濟方面的表現，我們對所有主要客戶都有更好的吸引力，這說明了為什麼我們在 2020 年和 2021 年都有這樣的需求曲線。

With that, I would like to pass the floor to our CFO, Joseph. Joseph?

有了這個，我想請我們的首席財務官 Joseph 發言。約瑟夫？

Okay. Happy New Year to everybody. And before I come into -- go into our financial highlights, let me give you the guidance for our first quarter. Like Ken just mentioned, fourth quarter last year was a very exceptional strong quarter for us, and we were able to recuperate whatever business loss that we had from the EAR impact. And this strong momentum will continue into first quarter. So we're going to have an unprecedented first quarter performance from the ATM perspective. In U.S. dollar terms, ATM first quarter 2021 business should be similar with fourth quarter 2020 level. Consequently, the gross margin should also be kept at a similar level with fourth quarter of 2020 as well. In terms of EMS, in U.S. dollar terms, EMS will follow the seasonality. First quarter 2021 business should be similar with third quarter 2020 levels, whereas EMS first quarter operating margin should be slightly below the whole year 2020 level. That is the guidance that we're providing.

好的。祝大家新年快樂。在我進入 - 進入我們的財務亮點之前，讓我為您提供第一季度的指導。就像肯剛剛提到的那樣，去年第四季度對我們來說是一個非常強勁的季度，我們能夠彌補我們因 EAR 影響而遭受的任何業務損失。而這種強勁勢頭將持續到第一季度。因此，從 ATM 的角度來看，我們將在第一季度取得前所未有的業績。以美元計算，ATM 2021 年第一季度的業務應該與 2020 年第四季度的水平相近。因此，毛利率也應保持在與 2020 年第四季度相似的水平。 EMS方面，以美元計，EMS會隨季節變化。 2021 年第一季度的業務應與 2020 年第三季度的水平相似，而 EMS 第一季度的營業利潤率應略低於 2020 年全年的水平。這就是我們提供的指導。

Now let me move into some of the financial highlights we have going through 2020. In the beginning of the year, in 2020, we set out to say that we have set an operating expense ratio. We want to lower it to 2018's level, which is 9.4%, and we have actually achieved ahead of that target. In 2020, our whole year operating expense ratio was managed to be held at 9%. And we will continue to put a very tight control over our OpEx ratio, and we're expecting to maintain the same OpEx ratio for 2021 as well. Also, in 2020, we also set a target to say, we want our operating margin to improve by 2%. From the reported operating margin, we stood at 7.3%, which was 1.6% higher than previous year. But still, if in all fairness, we have to look at the FX impact, in 2020, the operating -- if we net out the currency impact, the operating margin would have been 9.2%, which is 3.5 percentage points higher than 2019 level. Therefore, we believe that we have actually achieved our goal to have the operating margin improvement.

現在讓我談談我們在 2020 年經歷的一些財務亮點。在今年年初，也就是 2020 年，我們開始說我們已經設定了運營費用率。我們希望將其降低到 2018 年的水平，即 9.4%，我們實際上已經提前實現了該目標。 2020年全年營業費用率控制在9%。我們將繼續嚴格控制我們的運營支出比率，我們預計 2021 年也將保持相同的運營支出比率。此外，在 2020 年，我們還設定了一個目標，即我們希望我們的營業利潤率提高 2%。從報告的營業利潤率來看，我們為 7.3%，比去年高 1.6%。但是，如果平心而論，我們必須考慮外匯影響，在 2020 年，運營——如果我們扣除貨幣影響，運營利潤率將為 9.2%，比 2019 年的水平高 3.5 個百分點.因此，我們相信我們實際上已經實現了提高營業利潤率的目標。

For 2021, with the strong business momentum, we are targeting another 1.5 to 2 percentage points operating margin improvement for the year. And also to support the strong business momentum in 2021, in the last quarter, we were saying that we were expecting the -- our CapEx for the year to be lower somewhat from 2020's level. With the strong business momentum, we are actually raising that expectation in our CapEx to be similar to 2020's level, which is -- was at $1.7 billion. Having said that, I think we wanted to dive a little bit more deeper into the CapEx number. As we mentioned, in 2020, because of the EAR restriction, we actually disposed some of our capacity up to the amount of around $300 million. And for this year, we need to recuperate that capacity. So part of the CapEx that we're going to spend in 2021 will be to recuperate that capacity that we sold, and we will reconfigure the capacity to fit the current demand.

2021 年，隨著強勁的業務發展勢頭，我們的目標是全年營業利潤率再提高 1.5 至 2 個百分點。此外，為了支持 2021 年強勁的業務發展勢頭，我們在上個季度表示，我們預計今年的資本支出將低於 2020 年的水平。憑藉強勁的業務勢頭，我們實際上將資本支出的預期提高到與 2020 年的水平相似，即 17 億美元。話雖如此，我認為我們想更深入地研究資本支出數字。正如我們所提到的，在 2020 年，由於 EAR 限制，我們實際上處置了部分產能，金額高達約 3 億美元。今年，我們需要恢復這種能力。因此，我們將在 2021 年花費的部分資本支出將用於恢復我們出售的產能，我們將重新配置產能以滿足當前需求。

Also, in 2020, we said that we want to -- we set a goal to have our net debt-to-equity ratio down to 65 -- 60% to 65% level, and I think we have reached that goal ahead of time. In fact, in -- at the end of 2020, we already reached the 65% or the high end of the target. And this, we will continue to monitor very closely, and hopefully, we can try to be further down in 2021.

此外，在 2020 年，我們說我們希望 -- 我們設定了一個目標，將我們的淨負債權益比率降至 65 -- 60% 到 65% 的水平，我認為我們已經提前達到了這個目標.事實上，在 2020 年底，我們已經達到了目標的 65% 或高端。而這一點，我們將繼續密切關注，並希望我們可以在 2021 年嘗試進一步下降。

In terms of dividend, we are raising -- actually raising our dividend payout. We expect to raise that from no less than $3 a share, as I previously mentioned, to no less than $4 a share. So to give our shareholders -- have our shareholders to share more of the benefit that we -- are coming out of the strong performance that we have for 2020.

在股息方面，我們正在提高 - 實際上提高了我們的股息支付。正如我之前提到的，我們希望將其從不低於每股 3 美元提高到不低於每股 4 美元。因此，為了讓我們的股東——讓我們的股東分享我們更多的利益——從我們 2020 年的強勁表現中走出來。

With that, we are opening the floor for questions.

有了這個，我們開始提問。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

The first to ask questions, Randy Abrams, Crédit Suisse.

第一個提出問題的人，Randy Abrams，瑞士信貸。

Okay. Yes. Congratulations on the results and outlook. I wanted to ask the first question on the wirebond tightness, the change in view from mid-year to full year. Just how much -- you mentioned the equipment lead time push out, but just how much a factor of demand and maybe what demand changes you saw to push that out to end of year? And if you could talk about how much wirebonder capacity you'll be adding to keep up to that demand?

好的。是的。祝賀結果和展望。我想問第一個關於引線鬆緊度的問題，即從年中到全年的觀點變化。到底有多少——你提到了設備提前期的推出，但是你看到的需求因素有多少，也許你看到了什麼需求變化才能把它推到年底？如果你能談談你將增加多少引線鍵合機容量來滿足這種需求？

So the first question is, the demand has not slowed down at all and the machine lead time is getting longer. That's why the -- we're confident that wirebond capacity will remain to be tight to the end of this year, at least, if not longer. In terms of the number of wirebonder we're adding, I think last year, we had 1,800 and this year, we believe we will add to a similar number of units. Right now, we have confirmed delivery of 1,200, and we're working on the other. But in terms of the wirebond tightness, is a combination of demand has not slowed down as well as the machine lead time. It's not just wirebonder, it's the whole [line] balance.

所以第一個問題是，需求根本沒有放緩，機器交貨時間越來越長。這就是為什麼 - 我們有信心在今年年底之前，至少，如果不是更長的話，引線鍵合產能仍將保持緊張。就我們添加的銲線機數量而言，我認為去年我們有 1,800 台，今年我們相信我們會增加類似數量的設備。目前，我們已經確認交付了 1,200 個，我們正在處理另一個。但就引線鍵合的緊密度而言，是需求沒有放緩以及機器交貨時間放緩的綜合因素。這不僅僅是引線鍵合機，而是整個 [線] 平衡。

Okay. And if I could follow-up on the demand for wirebonder, just the application. Is it more PC consumer related? But also the other side, automotive, I think since you last reported it got even more tight. If you could remind us just how big the automotive sector is [or] tight? How you see that coming in? And whether you need to even prioritize some capacity with that market it seems like picked up quite a bit into year-end.

好的。如果我可以跟進對引線鍵合機的需求，那就是應用程序。是否與 PC 消費者更相關？但另一方面，汽車，我認為自從你上次報告以來，它變得更加緊張。如果你能提醒我們汽車行業有多大[或]緊張？你怎麼看它進來的？而且，無論您是否需要優先考慮該市場的某些容量，到年底似乎都會有所回升。

Right now, we have very high demand in automotive, mainly from the automated line as well as some high quality, the wirebonding process. The demand is actually getting to be very strong. In terms of the percentage, it's actually very difficult to estimate because the -- we do have a specific customer we're 100% engaged in the automotive business. But what we're seeing today is because of the advent of electrical vehicle, we have more customers getting into the [design in] with the automotive guys. And therefore, the -- it will take us a while to really comprehend exactly where the end application is.

目前，我們對汽車的需求非常高，主要來自自動化線以及一些高質量的引線鍵合工藝。需求實際上變得非常強勁。就百分比而言，實際上很難估計，因為我們確實有一個特定的客戶，我們 100% 從事汽車業務。但是我們今天看到的是由於電動汽車的出現，我們有更多的客戶與汽車專家一起進入[設計]。因此，我們需要一段時間才能真正理解最終應用程序的確切位置。

Okay. Okay. Fair enough. And if I could ask on the pricing, where you talked last quarter about raising price. How should we see the pricing in terms of magnitude, like how much? And then how it's taking effect? Because it looks like your expectation will be tight through the year. So would it be like sequentially you see ability to take up pricing so we see it coming throughout the year? And I think you talked a bit about even 2 years -- some 2-year contracts. If you could talk a little more about what that involved, like how much of your business or what's that -- what you're contracting in for pricing on those?

好的。好的。很公平。如果我可以詢問定價，您上個季度在哪裡談到提高價格。我們應該如何看待價格的大小，比如多少？然後它是如何生效的？因為看起來你的期望在這一年裡會很緊張。那麼，您會不會像順序看到定價能力一樣，所以我們看到它會在全年出現？而且我認為你談到了甚至 2 年——一些 2 年的合同。如果你能多談談這涉及的內容，比如你的業務有多少或那是什麼——你在這些方面的定價合同是什麼？

Well, the comment that I made, the last quarter caused a lot of confusion and complaints. So I'm not going to comment on that anymore. And the only thing I can tell you is we do have a very friendly pricing environment. And the pricing adjustment, it's not -- it's a science, it's art. You have to really look at the business dynamics, how do you really collaborate with your customers and how do you really support them in their total business portfolio. I think we have struggled the second half of last year and all the way to now trying to accomplish the [more asking task] and the balances. So the 2 comments that I made last time caused a lot of confusion. First, I gave a very quantitative number on the wirebond shortage. I'm not going to do that again. And then I talk about the pricing environment, and I don’t want to do that again there. I apologize.

好吧，我上個季度的評論引起了很多混亂和抱怨。所以我不再對此發表評論。我唯一可以告訴你的是，我們確實有一個非常友好的定價環境。而價格調整，不是——它是一門科學，它是一門藝術。您必須真正了解業務動態，您如何真正與客戶合作，以及您如何真正支持他們的整個業務組合。我認為我們去年下半年一直在努力，一直到現在都在努力完成[更多要求的任務]和平衡。所以我上次發表的2條評論引起了很多混亂。首先，我給出了一個關於引線鍵合短缺的非常量化的數字。我不會再這樣做了。然後我談到了定價環境，我不想在那裡再做一次。我道歉。

Okay. The last question I'll just ask for now. On OpEx, I just want to clarify. I think, Joseph, you made a comment about manage the OpEx to keep at 9%. The -- but I think the sales, you're guiding up double digit. So is it expectation the OpEx would be growing in line with the revenue run rate?

好的。我現在要問的最後一個問題。關於運營支出，我只想澄清一下。我想，約瑟夫，你曾評論過將運營支出保持在 9%。 - 但我認為銷售額，你正在引導兩位數。那麼，是否期望 OpEx 會隨著收入運行率的增長而增長？

I will say that there's still room for further improvement. But with the growing profitability, I think the bonuses in the salary adjustments will start to kick in a little bit more so. At this point, I want to stay a bit conservative, although I'm not precluding any possibility of further improvement in our OpEx ratio.

我會說還有進一步改進的空間。但隨著盈利能力的提高，我認為工資調整中的獎金將開始發揮更大的作用。在這一點上，我想保持保守一點，儘管我不排除進一步提高我們的運營支出比率的任何可能性。

Okay. Is the bonus expense tied to a percent of net income or is there a way to think of that -- how we should model that structure?

好的。獎金支出是否與淨收入的百分比掛鉤，或者有沒有辦法考慮這一點——我們應該如何模擬這種結構？

The OpEx?

運營支出？

Like the bonus expense -- like back when bonus expensing first started, it was a percent of net -- is it a percent of like pretax income or is there a way to think on that -- or that goes up with more profit sharing as you get more profitable?

就像獎金支出一樣——就像獎金支出剛開始時一樣，它是淨額的百分比——是稅前收入的百分比還是有辦法考慮這一點——或者隨著更多的利潤分享而上升你得到更多的利潤？

Yes. It goes up with the profit that we're making. In terms of the profit margin.

是的。它隨著我們正在賺取的利潤而上升。在利潤率方面。

Next one to ask question, Gokul Hariharan, JPMorgan.

下一位要提問的是摩根大通的 Gokul Hariharan。

Congrats on the good results. First of all, could we talk a little bit about advanced packaging and testing, how is the kind of backfill and recovery from the impact? I think we did have some impact in Q4 for both these areas. I think it was lower than Q3. How should we think about those areas? If you think about double-digit growth for IC ATM this year, if we were to rank wirebond versus advanced packaging versus testing, how should we think about the growth ranking for these 3 components of IC ATM?

恭喜取得好成績。首先，我們能不能談談先進的封測，這種回填和從影響中恢復的情況如何？我認為我們確實在第四季度對這兩個領域產生了一些影響。我認為它低於第三季度。我們應該如何看待這些領域？如果您考慮今年 IC ATM 的兩位數增長，如果我們將引線鍵合與高級封裝與測試進行排名，我們應該如何看待 IC ATM 這三個組件的增長排名？

Okay. 2020, especially Q4 was kind of a painful process for us, mainly because the EAR-affected customer, which happens to be very high run rate on our fan-out and some of the advanced packaging facility as well as the advanced testing facility. We have fully recovered that. We have disposed some of the assets, as Joseph already talked about it. The remaining asset, we have to retool, recalibrate, reconfigure to accommodate the other customer who might not have exactly the same configuration requirement compared to EAR-affected customers. That has been largely done. In terms of the -- now after that recalibration, in 2021, we do expect the advanced packaging as well as testing to resume the growth curve.

好的。 2020 年，尤其是第四季度，對我們來說是一個痛苦的過程，主要是因為受 EAR 影響的客戶，恰好是我們的扇出和一些先進的封裝設施以及先進的測試設施的運行率非常高。我們已經完全恢復了這一點。正如約瑟夫已經談到的那樣，我們已經處置了一些資產。剩下的資產，我們必須重新裝備、重新校準、重新配置，以適應與受 EAR 影響的客戶相比可能沒有完全相同的配置要求的其他客戶。這在很大程度上已經完成。就 - 現在在重新校準之後，到 2021 年，我們確實預計先進封裝和測試將恢復增長曲線。

Do you feel that it will grow faster than overall average or is probably still going to be in line with the overall average or slightly lower?

您是否覺得它的增長速度會快於整體平均水平，還是可能仍將與整體平均水平保持一致或略低？

It will be in line with our overall growth.

這將符合我們的整體增長。

Understood. My second question, as you mentioned, work-from-home, stay at home and some of the new demand drivers that have emerged as a result of the pandemic. When you think about your increased confidence in demand, not just for this year but also for next year, and that is kind of reflected in your CapEx increase as well, do you feel -- or do you kind of bake in some kind of mean reversions here in terms of demand going back once we get into some kind of a recovery? Or you think that this is a new normal and your customers are basically expecting the demand to be -- stay at these levels or even grow from here rather than [mean] toward back.

明白了。正如你所提到的，我的第二個問題是，在家工作、待在家里以及由於大流行而出現的一些新的需求驅動因素。當您考慮到您對需求的信心增強時，不僅是今年，而且是明年，這也反映在您的資本支出增加中，您是否覺得 - 或者您是否有點刻薄一旦我們進入某種複蘇，就需求回歸這裡？或者您認為這是一種新常態，您的客戶基本上期望需求保持在這些水平，甚至從這裡增長而不是[平均]向後。

All right. The -- of course, that is the educated guess, assuming that the vaccination, the -- and also the pandemic situation is the -- largely under control. The question now is, will we still see the current demand curve to continue? My believe is, the answer is yes, mainly from the following reasons. Now once you are adjusted to -- once you're accustomed to using a WiFi, using the smart device, using multiple computers, that -- there is no turning back. Also, the -- I think for you, myself, as was many of the semiconductor veteran, we're used to travel, flying around. I think 18 months, 24 months of time is enough to change on how the human behavior. For example, the -- all my customers who have not been traveled since the last 12 months. In future, there will be increasing percentage of people working from home, having conference at home to replace some of the travel, face-to-face meeting. In that regard, I think the IT equipment, the bandwidth and the quality and also the number of units people are willing to spend by as well as the age group, which covers the older age group as well as younger age group. I think that effect is there. Of course, we actually do not know the -- how much that slope is going to change, but I believe the slope will be better than pre-pandemic days.

好的。 - 當然，這是有根據的猜測，假設疫苗接種， - 以及大流行情況 - 基本上得到控制。現在的問題是，我們還會看到當前的需求曲線繼續下去嗎？我相信，答案是肯定的，主要有以下幾個原因。現在，一旦你適應了——一旦你習慣了使用 WiFi、使用智能設備、使用多台計算機——就沒有回頭路了。此外，我認為對你本人來說，就像許多半導體資深人士一樣，我們習慣於旅行，四處飛行。我認為18個月、24個月的時間足以改變人類的行為方式。例如，自過去 12 個月以來沒有旅行過的所有客戶。未來，將有越來越多的人在家工作，在家中召開會議，以取代部分出差、面對面的會議。在這方面，我認為IT設備，帶寬和質量以及人們願意花費的單位數量以及年齡組，包括年齡組和年輕組。我認為這種影響是存在的。當然，我們實際上不知道 - 斜率會發生多大變化，但我相信斜率會比大流行前的日子好。

Understood. That's very helpful. Maybe if I could ask 1 more question to Joseph. Joseph, when you talk about margin expansion on the -- it looks like a lot of the margin expansion is going to still come from gross margin, given you're expecting OpEx to remain largely flattish, at least the starting point of your expectations. Is it -- given that except for maybe 1 quarter, we were recently fully utilized all through last year, is it mainly a pricing translating into gross margin expansion because of capacity tightness and the different kind of pricing or are there any other variables? Is it more of the SPIL synergies starting to kind of come in when we think about the gross margin (inaudible).

明白了。這很有幫助。也許我可以再問約瑟夫 1 個問題。約瑟夫，當你談到利潤率擴張時——看起來很多利潤率擴張仍將來自毛利率，因為你預計運營支出將基本持平，至少是你預期的起點。是不是 - 考慮到除了 1 個季度，我們最近在整個去年都被充分利用，這主要是由於產能緊張和不同類型的定價而導致的定價轉化為毛利率擴張，還是有任何其他變量？當我們考慮毛利率（聽不清）時，是否更多的 SPIL 協同效應開始出現。

Well, I think it's a combination of many different factors. Of course, a friendly pricing environment certainly helps. But I think we will continue to improve our efficiency through further automation in our factories. Also, the synergy that we're going to be creating with the collaboration with SPIL will continue to benefit us in terms of margin improvement. And there are other measures that we're taking at this point to -- like Ken just mentioned. There are a lot of the ways that we do business will be different, will be more efficient. So all these -- and plus the continuing technology advancement that we're putting in our factory in terms of making new products and creating new projects, particularly in the SiP area, those all put together will definitely have a positive impact on our margin.

嗯，我認為這是許多不同因素的結合。當然，友好的定價環境肯定會有所幫助。但我認為我們將繼續通過工廠的進一步自動化來提高效率。此外，我們將通過與 SPIL 的合作創造的協同效應將繼續使我們在利潤率提高方面受益。我們目前正在採取其他措施——就像肯剛剛提到的那樣。有很多我們做生意的方式會有所不同，會更有效率。所以所有這些——再加上我們在製造新產品和創建新項目方面投入的持續技術進步，特別是在 SiP 領域，所有這些加在一起肯定會對我們的利潤率產生積極影響。

Got it. Maybe 1 last question. Could you also talk a little bit about how much of our EMS revenues were SiP last year? And could you talk a little bit about what are the new projects -- like what kind of products? Are there still 3 key products that we are looking at in terms of this new $400 million revenue coming in, in this year? Are we also seeing some diversification of this into other verticals?

知道了。也許最後一個問題。您能否也談談去年我們的 EMS 收入中有多少來自 SiP？你能談談什麼是新項目——比如什麼樣的產品？就今年新的 4 億美元收入而言，我們還在關注 3 款關鍵產品嗎？我們是否也看到了這種向其他垂直領域的多樣化？

We're seeing the whole wide variety of new SiP projects that covers the optical, the audio and silicon photonics as well as a lot of the smartphone edge devices. The -- so we're kind of pleased to see that the -- finally, the SiP project start to gain momentum. And one other thing I always like to tell people is, when I talk about the heterogeneous integration, I'm really not addressing the silicon on silicon type of integration. I think the ASE sweet spot for the SiP will be the traditional silicon on silicon multiple die as well as optical sensor, integrated in a very packaging manner. I think that we are looking at a huge growth rate ahead of us. And I can't really give you a number. But over the last few years, we have been ceaselessly collaborating with a lot of our key customers and trying to come up with design applications that can improve efficiency, leverage the success of the HPC bigger brain and also the success of very powerful network in cloud with the 5G data ray and low latency, I think we're seeing more application in all areas.

我們看到了各種各樣的新 SiP 項目，涵蓋光學、音頻和矽光子學以及許多智能手機邊緣設備。 - 所以我們很高興看到 - 最後，SiP 項目開始獲得動力。我總是喜歡告訴人們的另一件事是，當我談到異構集成時，我實際上並沒有解決矽上矽類型的集成。我認為 SiP 的 ASE 最佳點將是傳統的矽上矽多芯片以及光學傳感器，以非常封裝的方式集成。我認為我們正面臨著巨大的增長率。我真的不能給你一個數字。但是在過去的幾年裡，我們一直在不斷地與我們的許多關鍵客戶合作，並試圖提出可以提高效率的設計應用程序，利用 HPC 更大大腦的成功以及雲中非常強大的網絡的成功借助 5G 數據線和低延遲，我認為我們在所有領域都看到了更多應用。

But all of the little devices for the mass market, that is really the sweet spot that ASE has been designing for. And with our key customers, with our early success, I think ASE today almost become the first choice. For example, in 5G, in most of the unique SiP, the ASE has always been the first one to engage with our key customers. And I think that trend, hopefully, will repeat in 2021, then we'll have an even higher confidence and maybe we'll be able to give you a projected market size based on the effort. But in the last few years, we couldn't give you that number because we're primarily working with few customers. But now we're seeing a broader, more diversified portfolio and we gradually understand the design rule, the value, the physical, electrical, the cost performance, so we're just building the database to that. Our fully automated factory really was part of the overall architecture to accommodate that because if we don't understand how the sensor interact physically and the -- electrically with one another, it's very, very difficult to build high multiple die, high level integration with a variety of sensor using different material and different configuration. And I think that is something that becomes more obvious to us through the effort of the last few years. It's a long answer, but I think it's a key answer, it's a key message I would like to deliver to all of our partner investors.

但是所有面向大眾市場的小設備，這確實是 ASE 一直在設計的最佳點。與我們的主要客戶一起，憑藉我們早期的成功，我認為今天的 ASE 幾乎成為了首選。例如，在 5G 中，在大多數獨特的 SiP 中，ASE 始終是第一個與我們的主要客戶接觸的公司。我認為這種趨勢有望在 2021 年重演，然後我們會有更高的信心，也許我們能夠根據努力為您提供預計的市場規模。但在過去的幾年裡，我們無法給你這個數字，因為我們主要與少數客戶合作。但現在我們看到了更廣泛、更多樣化的產品組合，我們逐漸了解設計規則、價值、物理、電氣、成本性能，所以我們只是為此構建數據庫。我們的全自動工廠確實是整體架構的一部分，以適應這一點，因為如果我們不了解傳感器如何物理交互以及 - 相互電氣交互，那麼構建高多芯片、高水平集成是非常非常困難的各種傳感器採用不同的材料和不同的配置。我認為通過過去幾年的努力，這對我們來說變得更加明顯。這是一個很長的答案，但我認為這是一個關鍵答案，這是我想傳達給我們所有合作夥伴投資者的關鍵信息。

Now the line is open to Roland Shu from Citigroup.

現在這條線路已經開通到花旗集團的Roland Shu。

I think the first question still for the gross margin. So I look at your IC ATM gross margin in fourth quarter, it improved by 2.4 percentage points with the overall IC ATM revenue was fairly better than 3Q last year. However, I look at this testing revenue actually did decline a lot in 4Q. So -- but still, your gross margin improved a lot. So Joseph just said, you have a lot of these efficiency improvements and also with better pricing environment. Question is, is this an improvement on gross margins write-off or are we expecting the gross margin improvement for this IC ATM will continue even low our testing business declined in 4Q?

我認為第一個問題仍然是毛利率。所以我看看你們第四季度的 IC ATM 毛利率，它提高了 2.4 個百分點，整體 IC ATM 收入比去年第三季度要好得多。但是，我看這個測試收入實際上在第四季度確實下降了很多。所以——但是，你的毛利率還是提高了很多。所以約瑟夫剛才說，你有很多這樣的效率改進，還有更好的定價環境。問題是，這是對毛利率沖銷的改善，還是我們預計這款 IC ATM 的毛利率將繼續改善，即使我們的測試業務在第四季度有所下降？

With the higher loading that's continuing with very strong business momentum and the continuous effort that we're putting in, in terms of improving our overall efficiency and also with the closer collaboration with SPIL to create further synergy. I do believe that in this year, we'll continue to see margin improvement at the growth level. So there are some headwinds in front of us, including the strong NT dollar. And also, as you mentioned, the -- we're still trying to -- we're in the process of recuperating some of the lost test business, which tend to have a higher gross margin. But all -- putting all these together, I think there are some plus and minuses, but we still -- we're still fairly confident that we will continue to see margin improvement going forward.

隨著更高的負載繼續以非常強勁的業務勢頭和我們不斷努力，在提高我們的整體效率方面，以及與 SPIL 的密切合作以創造進一步的協同作用。我確實相信，在今年，我們將繼續看到增長水平的利潤率改善。所以我們面前有一些逆風，包括強勢的新台幣。而且，正如你所提到的，我們仍在努力恢復一些失去的測試業務，這些業務往往具有更高的毛利率。但所有這些 - 將所有這些放在一起，我認為有一些優點和缺點，但我們仍然 - 我們仍然相當有信心，我們將繼續看到未來的利潤率改善。

Understood. Yes. And for your testing business, actually, in the past couple of years, you had a big amount of the testers, and then you also would like to increase this testing business. However, I think in 4Q, the revenue for the testing was the lowest in a quarter in last year, it was even lower than 4Q last 2019. We think the EAR was probably was the reason for this lower testing revenue. Except for this EAR, is there any other issue or cause this testing revenue decline in 4Q last year?

明白了。是的。而對於你們的測試業務，實際上，在過去的幾年裡，你們有大量的測試人員，然後你們也想增加這個測試業務。但是，我認為在第四季度，測試收入是去年一個季度中最低的，甚至低於去年第四季度的 2019 年。我們認為 EAR 可能是導致測試收入下降的原因。除了這個 EAR，去年 4 季度是否還有其他問題或導致該測試收入下降？

No, I think that is really the main reason why -- because of this customer that is impacted by the EAR, unfortunately, has a very high turnkey ratio with us. And we are -- now that the -- this part of the business, it will take some time for us to bring back. And -- but I think -- fortunately, I think the current market environment does allow us to have more capability in terms of raising our overall turnkey ratio with our customers. So I think by second half of the year, we should be seeing a full recovery of our test momentum.

不，我認為這確實是主要原因——因為不幸的是，這個受 EAR 影響的客戶與我們的交鑰匙率非常高。我們現在是 - 這部分業務，我們需要一些時間才能恢復。而且 - 但我認為 - 幸運的是，我認為當前的市場環境確實讓我們有更多的能力來提高我們與客戶的整體交鑰匙比率。所以我認為到今年下半年，我們應該會看到我們的測試勢頭完全恢復。

Second half this year, 2021?

2021年下半年？

Right. And it does take some time not only to bring in new business but also to reequip ourselves with the suitable testers. It does take some time for us to fully recover.

正確的。不僅要引進新業務，還要重新配備合適的測試人員，這確實需要一些時間。我們確實需要一些時間才能完全恢復。

So what is the utilization for the test at this moment?

那麼此時測試的用途是什麼？

For fourth -- starting for fourth quarter, I think the overall test utilization has come down a little bit to below 80%. It was around 80% before.

對於第四季度——從第四季度開始，我認為整體測試利用率已經下降到 80% 以下。之前是80%左右。

Okay. Yes. How about the for IC ATM and for packaging?

好的。是的。用於 IC ATM 和包裝的怎麼樣？

Packaging? So packaging was -- we're running at full capacity. And I think typically, we'll say it's 80% plus.

包裝？所以包裝是 - 我們正在滿負荷運行。我認為通常情況下，我們會說它是 80% 以上。

Okay. Yes. So I -- you said in first quarter, this utilization for packaging and testing in first quarter probably will be similar as 4Q?

好的。是的。所以我 - 你在第一季度說，第一季度的封裝和測試利用率可能與第四季度相似？

Yes. Going in -- like Ken mentioned, the run rate of our business remains the same as in the fourth quarter, so the utilization should be very similar.

是的。進入 - 就像肯提到的那樣，我們業務的運行率與第四季度保持一致，因此利用率應該非常相似。

Okay. So previously, are you -- you have the target for testing revenue to be -- to reach 1/4 or 1/3 of the total IC ATM revenue. So now do you still keep the same goal for this testing revenue? And when do you think you will reach this goal?

好的。因此，以前，您是否有測試收入的目標是達到 IC ATM 總收入的 1/4 或 1/3。那麼現在您是否仍然對這個測試收入保持相同的目標？你認為你什麼時候能達到這個目標？

Yes. I think the test business is still a very, very lucrative business for us to build further. And we're setting a high goal for us, and we'll continue to work very hard on this.

是的。我認為測試業務仍然是我們進一步發展的非常非常有利可圖的業務。我們正在為我們設定一個很高的目標，我們將繼續為此努力。

Okay. So you don't have the time frame for when to reach this 1/4 or 1/3 of the total IC ATM revenue?

好的。所以您沒有時間框架來確定何時達到 IC ATM 總收入的 1/4 或 1/3？

We will say [whatever] the time.

我們會說 [whatever] 時間。

Yes. Okay. Okay. Lastly, for -- you said you have this 2-year loading agreement with customers. I just would like to know, is this for all customers on all application or this is just for some specific customers' product? And is this loading agreement a fixed price on fixed volume for 2 years?

是的。好的。好的。最後，您說您與客戶簽訂了為期 2 年的裝載協議。我只是想知道，這適用於所有應用程序的所有客戶還是僅適用於某些特定客戶的產品？這個裝貨協議是 2 年固定數量的固定價格嗎？

We have 90% of the customers covered 2 years.

我們有 90% 的客戶覆蓋 2 年。

90%?

90%？

Yes.

是的。

90% of all IC ATM customer?

90% 的 IC ATM 客戶？

No. I thought you were referring to wirebond.

不，我以為你指的是引線鍵合。

Okay. 90% of the wirebond customers?

好的。 90% 的引線鍵合客戶？

Right. That covers the NPI [volume] as well as pricing.

正確的。這包括 NPI [數量] 以及定價。

Okay. So this is a fixed pricing and fixed volume for 2 years?

好的。所以這是 2 年的固定價格和固定數量？

Yes.

是的。

Next one to ask question, Rick Hsu from Daiwa.

下一位要提問的是來自大和的 Rick Hsu。

I just have 1 simple question. Could you run through the details again about your Q4 nonoperating gains because I kind of missed this part at the beginning.

我只有 1 個簡單的問題。您能否再次詳細介紹一下您的第四季度非經營性收益，因為我在開始時有點錯過了這部分。

Great. We -- let's look at the page here. The majority of the gain relates to the disposition of the Fujian plant, about $800 million. We also saw some asset disposition gains. So we did have to reshuffle testers and such. So we did sell testers, but we did get gains on both.

偉大的。我們——讓我們看看這裡的頁面。大部分收益與福建工廠的處置有關，約為 8 億美元。我們還看到了一些資產處置收益。所以我們確實不得不重新調整測試人員等等。所以我們確實出售了測試人員，但我們確實在兩者上都獲得了收益。

So how much is gain for that?

那麼這能帶來多少收益呢？

$0.5 billion.

5 億美元。

$0.5 billion, okay.

5億美元，好吧。

And then we have net interest expense, $0.6 billion.

然後我們有淨利息支出，6 億美元。

We also have some ForEx.

我們也有一些外匯。

We have ForEx and investment related CapEx -- well, it's income this time around. So it's about $200 million -- so $0.2 billion.

我們有外彙和投資相關的資本支出——嗯，這次是收入。所以大約是 2 億美元——所以是 2 億美元。

Now we're having Charlie Chan from Morgan Stanley for questions.

現在我們請摩根士丹利的 Charlie Chan 提問。

Congratulations for the great results and Happy Chinese New Year. So my first question is really about your wirebond capacity expansion. So first of all, can Ken go through your strategic thinking behind it because if you expanded capacity maybe that kind of jeopardize your pricing power and if you don't expand, maybe you cannot capture the business opportunity. So that is the question number one.

恭喜取得優異成績並祝中國新年快樂。所以我的第一個問題實際上是關於你的引線鍵合產能擴張。因此，首先，Ken 能否回顧一下你背後的戰略思維，因為如果你擴大產能，可能會危及你的定價能力，如果你不擴大，也許你無法抓住商機。所以這是第一個問題。

And secondly, I'm a little bit curious about your machine lead time, right? Last year, you add 1,800 units and this year it's the same except -- but why last year, there wasn't a shortage and now you have such a lengthy lead time for those machines? And I know you probably more depends on collagen sulfur as the major wirebond vendor? And is that kind of long lead time only applied to the K&S and do you consider to also buy more wirebonders from Asian Pacific? Can you talk about all those topics?

其次，我對你的機器交貨時間有點好奇，對吧？去年，你增加了 1,800 台，今年除了 - 但為什麼去年沒有短缺，而現在這些機器的交貨時間如此之長？而且我知道您可能更依賴膠原硫作為主要的引線鍵合供應商？這種長交貨期是否只適用於 K&S，您是否考慮也從亞太地區購買更多的引線鍵合機？你能談談所有這些話題嗎？

Okay. We have reported we added 1,800 wirebonders last year. And some of the PO that we placed in the second half of last year has not been delivered yet. And some of the PO that we issued last year will be delivered throughout this year. We are also issuing new POs based on the loading agreement and also the requirement as well as many of the other equipment that were proposed to the full manufacturing line. So it's not just wirebonder. You also have all of the other equipment that go with the wirebond requirement and a different configuration based on the product. When I talk about the longer machine lead time, you have to go back to the machinery CapEx of the whole industry. If you go back to 2018 and 2019 and 2020 number for the whole OSAT. You will see that ASE was one of the companies that spend more money in 2019 and 2020 comparing to all of the other OSAT. So some of the orders that we placed in '19 and '20 and the capacity we build up and that was the leverage we had versus a lot of our customers in the delivery in the capacity crunch. We do have a better negotiation position based on our spending power as well as our strategic alliance to all of the customers. However, given the 2020 capacity crunch, I believe all of our competitors are placing order for all the equipment that are required to meet customer demand.

好的。據我們報導，去年我們增加了 1,800 台銲線機。而且我們去年下半年下的一些PO還沒有交付。我們去年發布的一些採購訂單將在今年全年交付。我們還根據裝載協議和要求以及向整條生產線提出的許多其他設備發出新的採購訂單。所以它不僅僅是引線鍵合機。您還擁有符合引線鍵合要求的所有其他設備以及基於產品的不同配置。當我談到更長的機器交貨時間時，你必須回到整個行業的機器資本支出。如果您回到整個 OSAT 的 2018 年和 2019 年和 2020 年的數字。您會看到，與所有其他 OSAT 相比，ASE 是 2019 年和 2020 年花費更多資金的公司之一。因此，我們在 19 和 20 年下達的一些訂單以及我們建立的產能，這是我們在產能緊縮時與許多客戶相比的優勢。基於我們的消費能力以及我們與所有客戶的戰略聯盟，我們確實擁有更好的談判地位。然而，鑑於 2020 年的產能緊縮，我相信我們所有的競爭對手都在訂購滿足客戶需求所需的所有設備。

So in 2021, we do believe the delivery will not be as smooth comparing to '19 and '20. And this explains why we don't believe the -- I will not be able to comment on the particular vendor that we use and also the number because this will cover a lot of the instrument and equipment that we need. We also need to cooperate with the substrate, the lead frame and all the other material supplier. It's just not wirebond. And I appreciate you know how tight everythings are.

所以在 2021 年，我們相信交付不會像 19 年和 20 年那樣順利。這解釋了為什麼我們不相信 - 我無法評論我們使用的特定供應商以及數量，因為這將涵蓋我們需要的許多儀器和設備。我們還需要與基板、引線框架和所有其他材料供應商合作。只是不是引線鍵合。我很感激你知道一切有多緊。

Okay. That's yes -- that's actually very helpful. So I guess the -- that kind of long lead times is kind of across board, maybe not just a single equipment or a single vendor. But Dr. Tien, would you think this kind of aggressive spending, not just your company but also, as you mentioned, your competitors, would win the discipline of the wirebonding markets. And next year, you probably see a kind of some appraiser from customers on the wirebonding price?

好的。是的——這實際上很有幫助。所以我想——那種長的交貨時間是跨界的，也許不僅僅是單一的設備或單一的供應商。但是田博士，您認為這種激進的支出，不僅是您的公司，而且正如您提到的，您的競爭對手，會贏得引線鍵合市場的紀律。明年，您可能會看到一些客戶對引線鍵合價格的評估？

There's something we learn in 2020 that are slightly different than before. Before, we talked about capacity and the customer will come in, they leverage the underutilized capacity versus pricing. But in year 2000, I believe a few things have changed, right? The first, people cannot travel. Therefore, the customer needs to arrange capacity qualification via remote somehow, relatively speaking. So for the company that have a track record of consistent delivery as well as plenty of data to demonstrate the integrity of the process will give higher confidence to the key customer and their end customer to use our capacity. Now in 2020, I do not have the detailed number of all our competitors, but I do not believe our competitor were as full as ASE. Having said that, we still have a lot of customers who need high reliability or consistency in delivery or, more so, in the speed of ramping up or the so-called tight market. So in 2020, even though we're very, very tight, but we have more customers coming to ASE demanding a longer-term service agreement such that we can provide the data, the serviceability, the fast ramp-up as well as the quality expectation or the liability that go with the high quality requirement.

我們在 2020 年學到的東西與以前略有不同。之前，我們討論了容量和客戶會進來，他們利用未充分利用的容量與定價。但在 2000 年，我相信有些事情發生了變化，對吧？首先，人們不能旅行。因此，相對而言，客戶需要通過某種方式遠程安排容量資格。因此，對於擁有一致交付記錄以及大量數據來證明流程完整性的公司而言，這將使關鍵客戶及其最終客戶更有信心使用我們的產能。現在到了 2020 年，我沒有我們所有競爭對手的詳細數量，但我不相信我們的競爭對手像 ASE 那樣滿員。話雖如此，我們仍然有很多客戶需要高可靠性或交付一致性，或者更重要的是，在加速或所謂的市場緊張的情況下。所以在 2020 年，儘管我們非常非常緊張，但我們有更多的客戶來到 ASE，要求籤訂更長期的服務協議，以便我們能夠提供數據、可服務性、快速提升以及質量與高質量要求相伴的期望或責任。

And you have to understand that we were running full in 2000 in a running full and another 10%, 20% ramp-up is a huge challenge. Without a fully automated line, without a careful landscape planning for the last few years, you simply cannot achieve this kind of time to market. So I think 2020 is a very good confidence boost to my sales team, to my manufacturing team. And based on all of the dialogue that I have with my key customer, they really appreciate how Taiwan was managed throughout the pandemic. How the Taiwanese semiconductor companies were managing the delivery in a very adverse supply chain environment throughout the whole 2020. And I believe that will carry us far. For the partner that we support, they're gaining market share. And I think this is another reason that I believe not only we will grow or we'll capture a huge chunk of the semiconductor grow in logic space, we will also force to enable more outsourcing for IDFs. That I believe that in the next few years, we will enjoy higher growth rate as a result of all of these factors.

你必須明白，我們在 2000 年滿負荷運轉，另外 10%、20% 的爬坡是一個巨大的挑戰。如果沒有全自動生產線，沒有過去幾年仔細的景觀規劃，您根本無法實現這種上市時間。所以我認為 2020 年對我的銷售團隊和製造團隊來說是一個非常好的信心提升。根據我與主要客戶的所有對話，他們非常欣賞台灣在整個大流行期間的管理方式。整個 2020 年，台灣半導體公司如何在非常不利的供應鏈環境中管理交付。我相信這將使我們走得更遠。對於我們支持的合作夥伴，他們正在獲得市場份額。我認為這是另一個原因，我相信我們不僅會增長，或者我們將在邏輯空間中獲得很大一部分半導體增長，我們還將強制為 IDF 提供更多外包。我相信在未來幾年，由於所有這些因素，我們將享受更高的增長率。

Dr. Tien, I think that's very clear. So may I also follow-up, Roland's question about your gross margin trend. Sorry, I'm not sure if you did give the gross margin guidance for this year. Can you kind of break down by your ATM business and the EMS business gross margin trend in 2021? And also, I know you normally don't comment about the pricing, right? But may I know for flagship and testing, do you expect prices to go up this year?

田醫生，我想這很清楚。那麼我也可以跟進一下，Roland 關於您的毛利率趨勢的問題。抱歉，我不確定你是否給出了今年的毛利率指導。您能否按 2021 年的 ATM 業務和 EMS 業務毛利率趨勢細分？而且，我知道你通常不會評論定價，對吧？但是請問旗艦和測試，你預計今年價格會上漲嗎？

Joseph, you will comment on the gross profit?

約瑟夫，你會評論毛利潤嗎？

As I mentioned earlier, I think the -- for 2021, I think we will continue to see margin improvement at the gross level. With the steady or improving OpEx ratio, I think also on the operating margin, we will continue to see improvement. And that comes from a lot of the efforts that we've put in, in terms of improving efficiency, creating synergy with SPIL. Also the higher loading, of course, it helps. A friendlier pricing environment also help. I think all of these put together give us a very high confidence that we will be improving our margin going forward for ATM. As far as EMS' perspective, I think the more relevant margin is at operating level. Because of the different product mix, they will have to create quite a bit of fluctuations on the growth level. So the more relevant or more meaningful benchmark is really on the operating level. For that, we are targeting a 4% operating margin for EMS business. That's slightly up from what we achieved in previous year, which was at 3.8%.

正如我之前提到的，我認為 - 到 2021 年，我認為我們將繼續看到毛利率的提高。隨著運營支出比率的穩定或改善，我認為在營業利潤率方面，我們將繼續看到改善。這來自於我們在提高效率、與 SPIL 產生協同效應方面所做的大量努力。當然，更高的負載也會有所幫助。更友好的定價環境也有幫助。我認為所有這些加在一起讓我們非常有信心，我們將在未來提高 ATM 的利潤率。就 EMS 的觀點而言，我認為更相關的利潤率是在運營層面。由於產品組合不同，它們將不得不在增長水平上造成相當大的波動。因此，更相關或更有意義的基準實際上是在運營層面上。為此，我們的目標是 EMS 業務的營業利潤率為 4%。這比我們去年的 3.8% 略高。

Okay. For the other line of business, flip-chip, the fan-out, all of the others, we're also seeing a more friendly environment. But not as friendly as wirebond, but they're friendly. Okay. I will not comment anymore on.

好的。對於其他業務線，倒裝芯片、扇出以及所有其他業務，我們也看到了更友好的環境。但不如引線鍵合友好，但它們很友好。好的。我將不再評論。

Next one to ask question Sebastian Hou, CLSA.

下一位要問的問題 Sebastian Hou，里昂證券。

So just to follow on the pricing and the margin that part. If I look at your Q4 2020 margin, that has improved. I think there's a combination of the utilization rate improve, synergies and then pricing. But looking now into your 1Q guidance, revenue and margin will be similar to the last quarter. So can we say that the pricing is not a factor anymore in this quarter to drive the margin for the improvement?

因此，只需關注那部分的定價和利潤率。如果我看一下你們 2020 年第四季度的利潤率，情況就會有所改善。我認為這是利用率提高、協同效應和定價的結合。但現在查看您的第一季度指導，收入和利潤率將與上一季度相似。那麼我們可以說定價不再是本季度推動改善利潤率的因素嗎？

I think it's to have a similar kind of margin for the quarter is quite a bit of a challenge itself already because we are facing further NT appreciation, which will have an over 1% impact on the margin. We are going through Chinese New Year. And some of the -- some of our factories are going through annual maintenance. So therefore we will have less working days. And also throughout the -- there's a lot of [home ball] that needs to be [passed out.] The overall compensation expense is going to be higher for the quarter. So all the things put together, I think we are -- I think we're doing a pretty good job in maintaining our margin at a similar margin from the fourth quarter.

我認為本季度有類似的利潤率本身已經是一個相當大的挑戰，因為我們面臨新台幣的進一步升值，這將對利潤率產生超過 1% 的影響。我們正在過中國新年。還有一些——我們的一些工廠正在進行年度維護。因此，我們將有更少的工作日。而且在整個過程中 - 有很多[本壘打]需要[傳遞出去]。本季度的總體補償費用將會更高。所以所有的事情放在一起，我認為我們是 - 我認為我們在將我們的利潤率保持在與第四季度相似的利潤率方面做得很好。

I mean, the -- just for clarification, the so-called seasonality is still here. In other words, some of the key customers are running very high-volume design for consumer or wireless application and this to go through seasonality and [I get why]. You can see, in our EMS business, will go through some sort of seasonality pattern. So to offset the vacuum created by the seasonality of loading, we have to go figure out how we add capacity, how do we enable other customers and ramp up that volume. In Q3 of last year, when I made a comment that our high run rate EAR customer who got affected, we expect the end of Q1 to fully recover that vacuum. So in fact, we had the EAR vacuum. We also have the normal seasonality vacuum in Q1. So what we're making a statement is we actually replenish 2 vacuums created by the unavoidable forces. Now how much of that is through efficiency, the product mix, then also pricing environment? I cannot get into the detail. But what we're telling you is at a macro level, given that we have 3 to 4 days, shorter working days because February as well as the annual maintenance, on top of that we have foreign exchange, that hopefully, we can deliver a very strong Q1, which will be a new record in my career time and revenue level in Q1 as well as the margin level. I hope that clarifies our current view about how unique Q1 is.

我的意思是，為了澄清，所謂的季節性仍然存在。換句話說，一些主要客戶正在為消費者或無線應用程序運行非常大批量的設計，這要經歷季節性和[我明白為什麼]。您可以看到，在我們的 EMS 業務中，會經歷某種季節性模式。因此，為了抵消裝載季節性造成的真空，我們必須弄清楚我們如何增加容量，我們如何為其他客戶提供支持並增加容量。去年第三季度，當我評論說我們的高運行率 EAR 客戶受到影響時，我們預計第一季度末將完全恢復這種真空。所以事實上，我們有 EAR 真空。我們在第一季度也有正常的季節性真空。所以我們要聲明的是，我們實際上補充了由不可避免的力量造成的 2 個真空。現在有多少是通過效率、產品組合以及定價環境來實現的？我無法進入細節。但是我們告訴你的是宏觀層面，考慮到我們有 3 到 4 天，比 2 月份更短的工作日以及年度維護，除此之外，我們還有外匯，希望我們可以交付非常強勁的第一季度，這將是我在第一季度的職業時間和收入水平以及利潤率水平的新紀錄。我希望這能澄清我們目前對 Q1 的獨特性的看法。

Okay. And my second question is on the 2-year contract you have with wirebonding customers. So if I may just want to understand the pricing schemes you have, it is that the customers already agree with -- you have elevated price, one time. And from now on in the next 24 months, the customer will be sit on that fixed price already or schemes also cover some price increase this year and another part of the price increase will happen next year within the next 24 months?

好的。我的第二個問題是關於您與引線鍵合客戶的 2 年合同。因此，如果我可能只是想了解您的定價方案，那是客戶已經同意-您有一次提高了價格。從現在開始，在接下來的 24 個月內，客戶將已經坐在這個固定價格上，或者計劃還涵蓋了今年的部分價格上漲，而另一部分價格上漲將在未來 24 個月內發生在明年？

I will not comment on that. I can only tell you that we have elevated the baseline and then there will be other calibration based on business dynamics. But I will not comment any more details on that because everyone is different.

我不會對此發表評論。我只能告訴你，我們已經提高了基線，然後會根據業務動態進行其他校準。但我不會對此發表任何評論，因為每個人都不一樣。

Okay. But so it's fair for us to assume that I think every customers have different scheme, and so which means that the price adjustment may not end yet?

好的。但是我們可以公平地假設我認為每個客戶都有不同的方案，那麼這意味著價格調整可能還沒有結束？

I won't comment on that. You know I won't.

我不會對此發表評論。你知道我不會。

Okay. And then another part of the question is that I think that you -- Dr. Wu, you have mentioned that aside from wirebonding, the auto business, the pricing environment also getting more friendly right now. So do you see the possibility that customers will also get on board with maybe some long-term agreements bumping or flip-chip business?

好的。然後問題的另一部分是，我認為您——吳博士，您提到除了引線鍵合，汽車業務，定價環境現在也變得更加友好。那麼，您是否認為客戶也有可能參與一些長期協議的碰撞或倒裝芯片業務？

I won't comment on that right now. Sorry.

我現在不會對此發表評論。對不起。

Okay. No worry. Next question I have in terms of the wirebonding equipment availability, I know that the lead times get extended because everybody wanted to buy those equipment right now, but do you see there's any intrinsic bottlenecks or in terms of the limitation of the wide bonding equipment for the industry or for you to buy?

好的。別擔心。下一個問題是關於引線鍵合設備的可用性，我知道交貨時間會延長，因為現在每個人都想購買這些設備，但是您是否看到存在任何內在瓶頸或寬鍵合設備的限制行業還是給你買？

I don't think there is any other. It's just over delivery -- you need to have a line balance. You don't buy one type of equipment in excessive way. It will come in with the line balance, optimization as well as via a substrate, the epoxy and all of the other material supply. And I mean, mind you, the floor space, the training, IT system, I mean, I can just go and on about what you need to do on top of that, the wastewater, the air, I mean there's a whole lot of things that you cannot react just in time. The manufacturing floor takes years of planning to do. And we're just giving you at a macro level of what the estimated number in terms of increment that we will be able to achieve.

我不認為還有其他的。這只是過度交付——你需要有一個線路平衡。您不會過度購買一種設備。它將與生產線平衡、優化以及通過基板、環氧樹脂和所有其他材料供應一起提供。我的意思是，請注意，佔地面積、培訓、IT 系統，我的意思是，我可以繼續討論你需要做的事情，廢水，空氣，我的意思是有很多無法及時做出反應的事情。製造車間需要多年的規劃才能完成。我們只是在宏觀層面上向您提供我們將能夠實現的增量估計數字。

Okay. That's fair. Last question from me is the EMS business, I think the company incumbent that I think this year, the EMS business the growth will be higher than IC ATM this year. So what is the -- can you give us some examples of the -- or give me more color about what's driving that?

好的。這還算公平。我的最後一個問題是EMS業務，我認為今年我認為EMS業務的增長將高於IC ATM的現有公司。那麼是什麼——你能給我們一些例子嗎——或者給我更多關於是什麼驅動的顏色？

Are you asking about the Asteelflash acquisition.

您是在詢問收購 Asteelflash 的事情嗎？

If we exclude that?

如果我們排除它？

Well, then you will have a combination of growth in all sectors. In a highly constrained environment, the traditional EMS business will grow because everyone is looking for parts.

好吧，那麼你將在所有部門都有增長。在高度受限的環境中，傳統的 EMS 業務將會增長，因為每個人都在尋找零件。

Okay. Thanks for mentioning that. If we exclude the acquisition, would EMS still be growing above IC ATM or below?

好的。謝謝你提到這一點。如果我們排除收購，EMS 是否仍會在 IC ATM 之上或之下增長？

I think the overall organic growth of -- the overall EMS growth comes from both organic growth as well as the addition of Asteelflash, which represents about 10% of the overall EMS going forward. So we did mention that we are expecting the ATM to grow 2x of the logic semi market growth. So you can do the math from there.

我認為整體有機增長——整體 EMS 增長來自有機增長以及 Asteelflash 的添加，佔未來整體 EMS 的 10% 左右。所以我們確實提到我們預計 ATM 的增長是邏輯半市場增長的 2 倍。所以你可以從那裡做數學。

Next one to ask question, Chris from Goldman Sachs.

下一位要提問的是高盛的克里斯。

I think my question is for the overall AUM growth in 2021, which is like 2x higher than the semi growth. So for the midpoint, about 15%. Can -- which is very, very good. Can you give us a little bit breakdown in terms of like which one will grow faster or what other growth driver is coming from? How much is coming from the share gain? How much is coming from SiP? Or how big is wirebond, (inaudible), testing? What kind of rank in terms of their growth rate for 2021?

我認為我的問題是 2021 年的整體 AUM 增長，這比半增長高出 2 倍。所以對於中點，大約 15%。可以——非常非常好。您能否就哪個增長更快或其他增長動力來自哪個方面進行一些細分？份額收益有多少？有多少來自 SiP？或者引線鍵合（聽不清）測試有多大？就 2021 年的增長率而言，它們的排名是多少？

All right. 5G is at the onset. So we're seeing a lot of 5G volume and then the -- you probably know the number better than we do. So our key customer in the 5G space that cover the whole slew of application front module, part amplifier and the 5G chipset, the PMIC that go with it as well as the -- because of 5G and the -- a lot of the customers need to upgrade their infrastructure, WiFi. So the -- so WiFi is there. The -- we're having the -- a lot of demand from the automotives and the electrical vehicle. And I talked about the smart devices and the edge device. So we're seeing more SiPs. And I just comment in year 2000, we have $386 million of new SiP business that we believe in 2021, on top of that, we get another $400 million of SiP business. And they're mostly audio-, optical-oriented. And all of these are new. And honestly, I think we're the first mover in the -- I think in all of these applications. So I don't think it's a market share gain. It's just a brand new market, enabled by the pandemic or more specifically, enabled by the brain power of the HPC and AI, the cloud, data center and the e-commerce and the -- you're seeing a lot of smart devices and IoT being enabled. I will not comment any more detail. But I think over time, you will see a higher semiconductor growth rate reported by many of the semiconductor companies. And I think ASE has got the right infrastructure and know-how and the reputation to facilitate those high-value ramp-up and time-to-market in a very, very timely manner, particularly in a challenging environment. So I think 2021, at this point of time, we're very, very optimistic about the baseline that covers all of the loading agreement as was NPI and we look at the pipeline and their end market application. So our internal judgment is that those volumes are very real, and they will have longer life and stronger net in the next few years.

好的。 5G 即將到來。所以我們看到了很多 5G 容量，然後你可能比我們更了解這個數字。因此，我們在 5G 領域的主要客戶涵蓋了整個應用前端模塊、部分放大器和 5G 芯片組、與之配套的 PMIC 以及 - 因為 5G 和 - 許多客戶需要升級他們的基礎設施，WiFi。所以 - 所以 WiFi 就在那裡。 - 我們有來自汽車和電動汽車的大量需求。我談到了智能設備和邊緣設備。所以我們看到了更多的 SiP。我只是在 2000 年發表評論，我們相信到 2021 年我們將擁有 3.86 億美元的新 SiP 業務，除此之外，我們還會獲得另外 4 億美元的 SiP 業務。它們主要是面向音頻、光學的。所有這些都是新的。老實說，我認為我們是 - 我認為在所有這些應用程序中的先行者。所以我不認為這是市場份額的增加。這只是一個全新的市場，由大流行或更具體地說，由 HPC 和人工智能、雲、數據中心和電子商務的腦力所支持，以及——你會看到很多智能設備和物聯網被啟用。我不會評論更多細節。但我認為隨著時間的推移，你會看到許多半導體公司報告的更高的半導體增長率。而且我認為 ASE 擁有正確的基礎設施、專業知識和聲譽，可以非常、非常及時地促進這些高價值的提升和上市時間，特別是在充滿挑戰的環境中。因此，我認為 2021 年，在這個時間點上，我們對涵蓋所有裝載協議的基線非常非常樂觀，就像 NPI 一樣，我們著眼於管道及其終端市場應用。所以我們的內部判斷是，這些卷是非常真實的，並且在未來幾年它們將擁有更長的壽命和更強大的網絡。

Okay. Can I dig a little bit more into the SiP business? I mean, you just mentioned that SiP, the total group revenue is about $3.5 billion. But well, as an analyst, we have difficulty right now to break down how much is coming from EMS, how much is coming from ATM business because some of the projects is a bit confusing from our perspective. So can you give us a breakdown between SiP business -- between EMS and ATM? And also for the growth rate, the SiP business, the new project is about $400 million and as well as this year, most likely it's for like 10-plus percent of the Y-o-Y growth for 2021. So which is somewhat lower than the overall corporate growth rate. Does that sound right?

好的。我可以深入挖掘一下 SiP 業務嗎？我的意思是，你剛才提到了 SiP，集團總收入約為 35 億美元。但是，作為一名分析師，我們現在很難分解有多少來自 EMS，有多少來自 ATM 業務，因為從我們的角度來看，有些項目有點令人困惑。那麼，您能給我們介紹一下 SiP 業務之間的細分——EMS 和 ATM 之間嗎？此外，對於 SiP 業務的增長率，新項目約為 4 億美元，而且今年很可能是 2021 年同比增長的 10% 以上。所以這比整體公司略低增長率。聽起來對嗎？

Well, if I can give you the breakdown, which I'm pondering, I don't think I would give you the breakdown this time. No, the growth rate is much higher than our corporate growth rate because the -- a lot of the growth rate are in the ATM range. Sorry, my apology, I don't have the breakdown right now. We will think about it, how do we give you a better breakdown for better clarity, but not this round.

好吧，如果我能給你我正在考慮的故障，我想我這次不會給你故障了。不，增長率遠高於我們的公司增長率，因為 - 很多增長率都在 ATM 範圍內。對不起，對不起，我現在沒有故障。我們會考慮一下，我們如何為您提供更好的細分以獲得更好的清晰度，但不是這一輪。

Okay. Okay. One last question for me is that if the whole year revenue growth is 2x than semi growth, which is more like 15% for the midpoint, but your first quarter ATM business is -- the year-on-year growth is somewhere around 6% or a high single digit, does that imply you have a very strong second half seasonality?

好的。好的。對我來說最後一個問題是，如果全年收入增長是半增長的 2 倍，即中點增長 15%，但您的第一季度 ATM 業務是 - 同比增長在 6% 左右或高個位數，這是否意味著您有很強的下半年季節性？

We already comment that we will -- we are expecting quarter-to-quarter growth for the whole year of 2021. So yes, it's 1Q, 2Q, 3Q, 4Q, each quarter is better than the previous quarter.

我們已經評論說我們會 - 我們預計 2021 年全年的季度環比增長。所以是的，這是第一季度、第二季度、第三季度、第四季度，每個季度都比上一季度好。

Now we are taking the last question, Szeho Ng from China Renaissance.

現在我們來回答最後一個問題，華興資本的 Szeho Ng。

Congratulations. 2 quick question from my side. First one, regarding the net gearing target. Basically, you've achieved ahead of schedule. So are you happy with the current 60% to 65%? Or internally, you're looking for a more aggressive target right now?

恭喜。 2 我這邊的快速問題。第一個，關於淨負債率目標。基本上，你已經提前完成了。那麼你對目前的 60% 到 65% 滿意嗎？還是在內部，您現在正在尋找更具侵略性的目標？

The short answer is, yes, I'm happy with it. 65% is a reasonable number that we have already achieved, particularly we achieved it ahead of schedule. In terms of whether we want to further improve that, I think it really depends on how the market shapes up, going forward. I think there are plenty of different opportunities in front of us. It could be something organic, could be something that's external. So I would rather leave it open at this point or leave some flexibility for myself. If -- by the way, if we look at the current forecast that we have for the year, I think there's going to be further improvement in terms of net debt-to-equity-ratio.

簡短的回答是，是的，我對此很滿意。 65% 是一個合理的數字，我們已經實現了，尤其是我們提前實現了。至於我們是否要進一步改善這一點，我認為這真的取決於市場如何形成，未來如何。我認為我們面前有很多不同的機會。它可能是有機的，也可能是外部的。所以我寧願在這一點上讓它保持開放，或者給自己留一些靈活性。如果 - 順便說一句，如果我們看看我們對今年的當前預測，我認為淨債務與股本比率將進一步改善。

Okay. Definitely. And second question on the ATM GPS gross margin, given the company [varies] uplift outlook for the next few years, is it fair to assume that the ATM gross margin can be back to, let's say, the mid-to-high 20% levels like what we saw back in 2014 and '15 when the company was dominating the copper wirebonding market?

好的。確實。關於 ATM GPS 毛利率的第二個問題，鑑於公司 [varie] 未來幾年的上調前景，假設 ATM 毛利率可以回到 20% 的中高水平是否公平像我們在 2014 年和 15 年公司主導銅線鍵合市場時看到的水平？

Well, that's certainly the ideal level that we want to go after, I think -- but we're going to be patient, we're going to take one step at a time. Just checking from all angles of our operation, see how much improvement we can continue to have. So yes, I think that's our longer-term -- from a longer-term perspective, that is something we want to pursue.

嗯，這當然是我們想要追求的理想水平，我認為——但我們會保持耐心，我們會一步一步地邁出。只是從我們運營的各個角度檢查，看看我們可以繼續有多少改進。所以是的，我認為這是我們的長期 - 從長期的角度來看，這是我們想要追求的。

Okay. Thank you, everyone, for attending our call. We'll see you next quarter, hopefully, at an earlier time slot. Talk to you, soon. Bye.

好的。謝謝大家參加我們的電話會議。我們將在下個季度見到你，希望在更早的時間段內。以後再聊。再見。

Thank you. Happy New Year.

謝謝你。新年快樂。