Companhia de Saneamento Basico do Estado de Sao Paulo - SABESP (SBS) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and welcome to SABESP first quarter of 2025 earnings presentation. With us here today are Carlos Piani, CEO; Daniel Szlak, CFO; and Thiago Levy, Investor Relations.

早上好，歡迎參加 SABESP 2025 年第一季財報。今天與我們一起出席的有首席執行官卡洛斯·皮亞尼 (Carlos Piani)、首席財務官丹尼爾·斯拉克 (Daniel Szlak) 和投資者關係部蒂亞戈·利維 (Thiago Levy)。

Before we begin, we clarify that the statements made during this presentation will not include projections or estimates of future events. However, they may contain forward-looking statements indicating potential trends related to SABESP based on the reasonable expectations, beliefs and assumptions of SABESP's management as of today. These statements involve risks and uncertainties and are based on assumptions and factors such as market, regulatory, and economic conditions, which may not materialize in addition to the risk factors disclosed in SABESP filings with the Brazilian Securities and Exchange Commission, B3, and on its Investor Relations website.

在開始之前，我們要澄清的是，本次演講中的陳述不包括對未來事件的預測或估計。然而，它們可能包含前瞻性陳述，表明基於 SABESP 管理層截至今天的合理預期、信念和假設的與 SABESP 相關的潛在趨勢。這些聲明涉及風險和不確定性，並且基於市場、監管和經濟條件等假設和因素，除了 SABESP 向巴西證券交易委員會 B3 提交的文件和投資者關係網站上披露的風險因素外，這些假設和因素可能不會實現。

Investors should understand that changes in such factors may lead to outcomes that differ from current trends and that undue reliance should not be placed on these statements. The full disclaimer will be presented next and must be read carefully by all participants. This presentation is being recorded. (Operator Instructions)

投資人應該明白，這些因素的變化可能會導致與當前趨勢不同的結果，因此不應過度依賴這些聲明。接下來將提供完整的免責聲明，所有參與者必須仔細閱讀。本次演講正在錄製中。（操作員指示）

I will now turn the floor over to Daniel Szlak, who will discuss the results. Daniel, you may proceed.

現在我將把發言權交給 Daniel Szlak，他將討論結果。丹尼爾，你可以繼續了。

Thank you, operator. Good morning to all our investors. Thank you for joining us today for SABESP's first-quarter 2025 earnings call. My name is Daniel Szlak, and I'll be presenting our financial and operational results. After me, our CEO, Carlos Piani, will give his remarks on the progress of our evolution in our new phase.

謝謝您，接線生。各位投資人早安。感謝您今天參加 SABESP 2025 年第一季財報電話會議。我叫 Daniel Szlak，我將介紹我們的財務和營運結果。在我之後，我們的執行長 Carlos Piani 將就我們新階段的發展進展發表評論。

Starting with our operational figures. Production volumes grew 4% compared to the same period last year, driven by higher reservation and water pressure in the network. When we look at the number of connections, we've observed growth both in water and sewage progressing against our U Factor targets, which we will address in a few pages. The strong operational figures translated to sound financial results with adjusted net revenue increasing by 3.9% and EBITDA reaching BRL3 billion in the quarter with a 17% growth rate and increasing our margin roughly 1 percentage point versus Q4.

從我們的營運數據開始。由於儲備量增加和管網水壓上升，產量與去年同期相比增加了 4%。當我們查看連接數量時，我們發現水和污水的增長都朝著我們的 U 因子目標前進，我們將在幾頁中討論這個問題。強勁的營運數據轉化為良好的財務業績，調整後淨收入成長 3.9%，EBITDA 本季達到 30 億巴西雷亞爾，成長率為 17%，利潤率較第四季提高約 1 個百分點。

Moving ahead, our reported net income also increased by a remarkable 80% year on year. Last but not least, we've generated BRL1.1 billion of operating cash, a 37% conversion from our EBITDA. The conversion was lower versus prior year, mainly due to higher income taxes retained for interest on own capital paid in January versus January 2024, better working capital terms to our CapEx vendors versus the prior model to foster the growth of our supplier base.

展望未來，我們的報告淨收入也比去年同期成長了 80%。最後但同樣重要的一點是，我們產生了 11 億巴西雷亞爾的營運現金，佔 EBITDA 的 37%。轉換率較上年有所下降，主要原因是 2024 年 1 月支付的自有資本利息所得稅有所增加，且與先前的模式相比，我們為資本支出供應商提供了更好的營運資本條款，以促進我們供應商基礎的成長。

Before deep diving into the drivers of the financial results, we will first walk you through the reported versus adjusted figures for the quarter. This quarter saw two small positive non-recurring effects with the adjustment of the sales tax rate on revenue estimates moving from the statutory to the effective rate. Additionally, we saw the payment of roughly BRL55 million in municipal debt to SABESP with BRL10 million positive impact in the allowance for doubtful accounts and BRL45 million in interest income. We continue to monitor the payments of the remaining amounts already published in October '24 and April '25.

在深入探討財務表現的驅動因素之前，我們將先向您介紹本季的報告資料和調整後資料。本季出現了兩項小的正面非經常性影響，即收入估算銷售稅率從法定稅率調整為實際稅率。此外，我們還看到向 SABESP 支付了約 5500 萬巴西雷亞爾的市政債務，其中 1000 萬巴西雷亞爾對壞帳準備金產生了積極影響，4500 萬巴西雷亞爾的利息收入也產生了積極影響。我們將繼續監控 24 年 10 月和 25 年 4 月已公佈的剩餘金額的支付情況。

Looking at the main drivers of our net revenue, the 3.9% increase came mainly from pricing carryover from 2024 and the positive impact from the removal of discounts to large clients, contributing a positive 7% in total, an increase in volumes, adding 1.2%, already net of a negative effect from having a leap year in 2024. These were partially offset by the implementation of FAUSP in Q3 last year and the adoption of Cadastro Único in the social tariffs, which expanded the number of economies receiving subsidized tariffs.

從我們淨收入的主要驅動因素來看，3.9% 的成長主要來自 2024 年的價格結轉以及取消大客戶折扣的正面影響，總共貢獻了 7% 的正成長，銷量成長了 1.2%，這已經扣除了 2024 年閏年的負面影響。這些影響被去年第三季實施的 FAUSP 以及社會關稅中採用 Cadastro Ãnico 所部分抵消，擴大了享受補貼關稅的經濟體數量。

Diving deeper into the revenue figures, we expand on our price and mix effects. For price, we saw a gain versus 1Q last year due to the carryover of the tariff cycle, contributing a positive BRL300 million, combined with the gain from the removal of discounts to large clients, represented BRL100 million in the quarter. On the mix front, we've expanded the number of economies with access to subsidized tariffs with the adoption in September 2024 of the Cadastro Único base. This generated a negative effect of roughly BRL100 million in the quarter.

深入研究收入數據，我們擴大了價格和組合效應。就價格而言，由於關稅週期的延續，我們看到價格較去年第一季上漲，貢獻了 3 億雷亞爾的正值，再加上取消對大客戶的折扣帶來的收益，本季度的收益為 1 億雷亞爾。在組合方面，隨著 2024 年 9 月採用 Cadastro Ãnico 基礎，我們擴大了享受補貼關稅的經濟體數量。這給本季帶來了約 1 億巴西雷亞爾的負面影響。

Zooming out and looking at our EBITDA drivers. We had challenges on electricity, driven by the increase in the water network pressure and lower rainfall, requiring more maneuvers in our water dams. These were more than offset by favorability in people, which we'll zoom in and G&A, mainly from the lower municipal fund payments in connection with the anticipation from 2024. We also had a large settlement in 1Q '24 that we are also lapping.

縮小並查看我們的 EBITDA 驅動因素。由於水網壓力增加和降雨量減少，我們在電力方面面臨挑戰，需要對水壩進行更多操作。這些都被人們的好感度所抵消，我們將放大這一點，以及一般及行政費用，主要是由於與 2024 年的預期相關的市政基金支付較低。我們在 2024 年第一季也達成了一筆大額和解，目前仍在處理中。

Looking at our labor cost evolution, we have seen an overall gain of 8% year on year, driven by the lower headcount behind 2023 and 2024 voluntary dismissal programs that was partially offset by the inflation adjustment carryover from 2024 negotiated with our unions. As disclosed in last quarter's call, we have started the departures from the 2024 voluntary dismissal plan in February, with the average happening in Q2 '25. We have ended Q1 with roughly 9,700 employees.

從我們的勞動成本變化來看，我們看到整體年增 8%，這是由於 2023 年和 2024 年自願解僱計劃導致的員工人數減少，但與工會協商確定的 2024 年通膨調整結轉部分抵消了這一增長。正如上個季度的電話會議所揭露的那樣，我們已於 2 月開始實施 2024 年自願解僱計劃，平均發生在 2025 年第二季。第一季結束時，我們約有 9,700 名員工。

Now moving on to CapEx. We're excited to announce that we have doubled the CapEx execution year on year. This is the most important metric we've been tracking and focusing our efforts on since we took over, and the results are starting to reflect that effort. When we look at how this translates to U-Factor attainment, we have progressed a lot in water and sewage collection, and we'll see the progress on sewage treatment mostly in the second half as we are working on expanding our wastewater treatment stations prior to connecting all the economies, and we're also laying down sewage collection pipes concomitantly. When we look at how this translates to impact in the lives of the population we serve and the environment we act, this is something we're very proud of.

現在轉到資本支出。我們很高興地宣布，我們的資本支出執行額比去年同期翻了一番。這是我們上任以來一直追蹤並重點關注的最重要的指標，結果也開始反映出我們的努力。當我們研究如何將其轉化為 U 因子實現時，我們在水和污水收集方面已經取得了很大進展，並且我們將在下半年看到污水處理的進展，因為我們正在努力在連接所有經濟體之前擴建我們的污水處理站，同時我們還在鋪設污水收集管道。當我們看到這對我們所服務的人群的生活和我們所處的環境產生的影響時，我們感到非常自豪。

A few highlights here. In Q1, we have a CapEx backlog that is 3 times what we had in the same period of last year in more than 90 projects with more than 90 suppliers. And the additional sewage treatment capacity that came online in Q1 is the equivalent of removing 12 Olympic pools from Tiete River per months of sewage.

這裡有幾個亮點。在第一季度，我們與 90 多家供應商合作的 90 多個專案的資本支出積壓量是去年同期的 3 倍。第一季新增的污水處理能力相當於每月從鐵特河抽取12個奧林匹克游泳池的污水。

Now, turning our focus to our balance sheet. We have progressed immensely in our liability management, extending our debt profile and tenure and reducing our relative cost by 63 bps even as we grew our total debt amount. We have renegotiated debt, reducing spreads, took advantage of tighter credit spreads to refi some of our notes and also took a proactive stance on swapping foreign currency-denominated debt to eliminate currency risk. All of this translated into sound leverage ratios and superior returns to our shareholders.

現在，我們將注意力轉向資產負債表。我們的負債管理取得了巨大進步，延長了我們的債務狀況和期限，並在總債務金額增加的同時將相對成本降低了 63 個基點。我們重新協商了債務，降低了利差，利用信貸利差收緊為部分票據進行再融資，並積極主動地交換外幣債務，以消除貨幣風險。所有這些都轉化為良好的槓桿率和股東的豐厚回報。

Thank you for your attention, and I'll now pass the floor to our CEO, Carlos Piani. See you on the Q&A.

感謝您的關注，現在我將發言權交給我們的執行長 Carlos Piani。問答環節見。

Thanks again, Daniel. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining our first-quarter 2025 earnings call. As we transition from the groundwork laid in 2024 to full execution mode in 2025, I'm pleased to report that we're seeing tangible progress across every front of our transformation agenda, following the next few slides of our presentation.

再次感謝你，丹尼爾。大家早安，感謝您參加我們的 2025 年第一季財報電話會議。當我們從 2024 年奠定的基礎過渡到 2025 年的全面執行模式時，我很高興地報告，根據我們簡報中的接下來幾張幻燈片，我們在轉型議程的各個方面都看到了切實的進展。

Let's start with a quick recap of our key priorities. As shared in our previous call, our strategy continues to be anchored around three pillars: first, addressing the new challenges brought by the concession agreement; second, elevating SABESP's operating standards; and lastly, reinforcing our corporate foundations through people, technology and process transformation. These priorities provide the steady direction behind our work.

讓我們先快速回顧一下我們的主要優先事項。正如我們在先前的電話會議中所分享的，我們的策略繼續圍繞著三大支柱：首先，應對特許協議帶來的新挑戰；其次，提升 SABESP 的營運標準；最後，透過人員、技術和流程轉型來加強我們的企業基礎。這些優先事項為我們的工作提供了穩定的方向。

Now moving to the next slide, which brings a snapshot of recent execution. Let me start with CapEx. Execution in the first-quarter 2025 was fully in line with our plan. More importantly, the supplier base supporting that execution continues to expand. The number of active vendors has tripled compared to early last year, allowing us to diversify risk and accelerate delivery.

現在轉到下一張投影片，它展示了最近執行情況的快照。讓我先從資本支出開始。2025 年第一季的執行完全符合我們的計劃。更重要的是，支持該執行的供應商基礎不斷擴大。與去年年初相比，活躍供應商的數量增加了兩倍，這使我們能夠分散風險並加快交付。

On the regulatory front, roughly 70% of the injunctions filed by large clients to retain legacy discounts have now been overruled in SABESP's favor. That gives us confidence in our approach and in our ability to recover this revenue over time. We've also began executing on our obligations to extend service into rural areas. The rural census has already been contracted, and our teams are actively preparing delivery plans. Also, the water resilience plan has been delivered to our SASB, our regulatory agency, ensuring we're better prepared for climate-related stress.

在監管方面，大客戶為保留傳統折扣而提出的禁令中，約有 70% 已被駁回，SABESP 勝訴。這讓我們對我們的方法以及隨著時間的推移恢復收入的能力充滿信心。我們也開始履行將服務擴展到農村地區的義務。農村人口普查工作已經簽約，我們的團隊正在積極制定實施計劃。此外，水資源恢復計畫已提交給我們的監管機構 SASB，以確保我們更好地應對與氣候相關的壓力。

On the commercial side, our overdue receivables campaign brought in BRL35 million in collections in the Gato Molhado operation, with focuses on cracking down water theft and consumption fraud continues to scale. In Q1 alone, we identified over 7,300 cases of fraud, an essential step towards reducing nonrevenue water and strengthening fairness across our client base. We're also accelerating our metering modernization. In the quarter, we installed 205,000 new meters, up 25% versus the first quarter of last year, marking an important milestone in improving both measurement accuracy and consumption transparency.

在商業方面，我們的逾期應收帳款活動在 Gato Molhado 業務中帶來了 3500 萬巴西雷亞爾的收款，重點打擊偷水和消費詐欺行為，規模持續擴大。光是第一季度，我們就發現了 7,300 多起詐欺案件，這是減少無收入水和加強客戶群公平性的重要一步。我們也在加速計量現代化。本季度，我們安裝了 205,000 個新電錶，比去年第一季成長了 25%，這是提高測量準確性和消費透明度的重要里程碑。

Finally, on cost discipline. ZBB initiatives are underway. This quarter, we executed several changes, including centralized logistics, fleet optimization and new electricity procurement contracts, and tighter controls on labor shifts and overtime. We also began optimizing our call center operations to better align with demand.

最後，關於成本紀律。零基預算計劃正在進行中。本季度，我們實施了多項變革，包括集中物流、車隊優化和新的電力採購合同，以及對輪班和加班的嚴格控制。我們也開始優化呼叫中心運營，以更好地滿足需求。

Let's move now to the last slide to wrap up. In the first quarter of 2025 marked another quarter of consistent and resilient financial results. Revenue grew 4% year over year. EBITDA was up 17%, and we continue to generate strong cash flow. Our covenants are solid, debt is under control, and we're progressing well with our funding road map.

現在讓我們看最後一張投影片來結束本次演講。2025 年第一季標誌著又一個財務業績保持穩定和強勁的季度。營收年增4%。EBITDA 成長了 17%，我們繼續產生強勁的現金流。我們的契約是穩固的，債務在控制之中，我們的融資路線圖也進展順利。

Beyond the numbers, we're seeing impact on the ground. Our CapEx program is evolving to achieve the 2025 universalization targets and is directly benefiting communities. Over 98,000 people gained access to water or sewage services this quarter and then an additional 32 million liters of sewage are now being treated daily. We're also making an important contribution to employment.

除了數字之外，我們還看到了實際影響。我們的資本支出計畫正在不斷發展，以實現 2025 年的普及目標，並直接造福社區。本季度，超過 98,000 人獲得了供水或污水處理服務，目前每天還有 3,200 萬公升污水得到處理。我們也為就業做出了重要貢獻。

Around 40,000 direct and indirect jobs have been created through our investments and construction activities. Internally, our Sabesp Gente program, our talent management program, continues to perform well. We've onboarded fresh talent, retain experienced professionals through smooth transitions, and build strong leadership teams.

我們的投資和建設活動創造了約40,000個直接和間接就業機會。在內部，我們的人才管理計劃 Sabesp Gente 計劃繼續表現良好。我們引進了新的人才，透過平穩過渡留住了經驗豐富的專業人士，並建立了強大的領導團隊。

And finally, we continue to work closely with regulators to close historic gaps. While there is more to do, we're encouraged by the dialogue and confident in our path forward. So in summary, we're executing with speed and purpose. The transformation of SABESP is underway, not just in strategy, but in action.

最後，我們將繼續與監管機構密切合作，彌補歷史遺留的差距。雖然還有很多工作要做，但我們對對話感到鼓舞，並對前進的道路充滿信心。總而言之，我們正在快速而有目的地執行。SABESP 的轉型正在進行中，不僅體現在策略上，也體現在行動上。

With that, I'll turn back to Daniel, and we'll open the floor for questions.

說完這些，我會把話題轉回丹尼爾身上，我們將開始提問。

Thank you, everyone. We're going to now open for questions.

謝謝大家。我們現在開始回答問題。

Guilherme Lima, Santander.

吉列爾梅·利馬，桑坦德銀行。

Good morning, guys. Thanks for the question. Could you comment on the general expenses line which decreased from around BRL600 million in first-quarter '24 to around BRL260 million in first-quarter '25? Part of the reduction is due to the almost BRL100 million from the municipality fund, right? I would like to understand the other part of this variation. That's it from us.

大家早安。謝謝你的提問。您能否評論一下一般支出項目，該項目從 2024 年第一季的約 6 億雷亞爾下降到 2025 年第一季的約 2.6 億雷亞爾？部分減少是因為市政基金撥付了近 1 億雷亞爾，對嗎？我想了解這個變化的另一部分。這就是我們要說的。

Thank you, Guilherme. Thank you for your question. Indeed, BRL100 million comes from the anticipation of municipal funds that happened last year. So going forward, we will probably continue to see a similar effect until 2029, actually. And then, when we think about the remaining, the bulk of that comes from legal accruals and settlements, whereby in February last year we had a large settlement. That has not repeated this year. So this is really what explains the bulk of the variance, Guilherme.

謝謝你，吉列爾梅。感謝您的提問。事實上，1億巴西雷亞爾來自去年預期的市政資金。因此，展望未來，實際上，我們可能會繼續看到類似的影響，直到 2029 年。然後，當我們考慮剩餘部分時，其中大部分來自法律應計費用和和解，去年 2 月我們達成了一筆大額和解。今年這種情況沒有再發生。所以這實際上解釋了大部分差異，Guilherme。

Thank you, Daniel.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。

João Pimentel, Citibank.

花旗銀行的 João Pimentel。

Hi, guys. Good morning. Actually, if you allow, I have two questions. The first one is the company was able to boost its top line by removing BRL100 million in tariff discounts to clients. And it seems there are more discounts currently being tackled by the company. So if you could provide more color on the development of these negotiations? That will be my first.

嗨，大家好。早安.實際上，如果您允許的話，我有兩個問題。首先，該公司透過取消對客戶的 1 億巴西雷亞爾關稅折扣，成功提高了營業額。目前該公司似乎正在推出更多折扣。那麼，您能否提供更多有關這些談判進展的詳細資訊？那將是我的第一次。

And my second question is, we saw a very good progress on cost reduction and improvement in EBITDA margins jumping from 49% to 59% -- to 55% this quarter. But when we look at some more mature private concessions, we see the most efficient ones, of course, we see EBITDA margins close to 75%. So how do you compare those concessions with the potential of SABESP? Thank you.

我的第二個問題是，我們在降低成本和提高 EBITDA 利潤率方面取得了非常好的進展，本季 EBITDA 利潤率從 49% 躍升至 59% 至 55%。但是，當我們考察一些更成熟的私人特許經營權時，我們會看到最有效的特許經營權，當然，我們看到 EBITDA 利潤率接近 75%。那麼，您如何將這些優惠與 SABESP 的潛力進行比較？謝謝。

Thank you, João. I'll pass this one for Piani.

謝謝你，若昂。我會把這個傳給皮亞尼。

Thanks, João. Regarding the discounts, so we -- after the communication that we made at the end of the year for some of our customers, we retained a little bit less than BRL300 million in contracts with large customers that had discounts. Some of these customers that received the notice, they filed for injunction. This is very small today, roughly BRL5 million to BRL6 million per month, and we are very optimistic that we're going to eliminate this through time.

謝謝，若昂。關於折扣，我們在年底與一些客戶進行溝通後，與有折扣的大客戶簽訂了略低於 3 億巴西雷亞爾的合約。一些收到通知的客戶申請了禁令。目前這個數字非常小，大約每月 500 萬至 600 萬巴西雷亞爾，我們非常樂觀地認為，隨著時間的推移，我們將消除這個問題。

To qualify for the BRL300 million allowance, that's a provision that we have in our concession contract, that period ended in March. So this ability doesn't exist anymore. From the balance of a little bit less than BRL300 million, we were able to -- we're confident that we can cancel roughly 80% of that balance. So probably we're going to keep 20% of the gap around, let's put it around BRL50 million, BRL60 million, that maybe we will need another solution, okay? But we'll continue to notify these customers below the BRL300 million threshold that we believe that we can -- they can have regular tariffs.

要獲得 3 億巴西雷亞爾的補貼，這是我們特許合約中的一項規定，該期限已於 3 月結束。所以這種能力已經不存在了。從略低於 3 億巴西雷亞爾的餘額中，我們能夠——我們有信心可以取消其中約 80% 的餘額。因此，我們可能會將差距保持在 20% 左右，比如說 5000 萬巴西雷亞爾、6000 萬巴西雷亞爾左右，也許我們需要另一個解決方案，好嗎？但我們會繼續通知那些低於 3 億巴西雷亞爾門檻的客戶，我們相信他們可以享受常規關稅。

Regarding your second comment, remember, we have a very ambitious goal to provide universal access by 2029 with annual goals. So we need to balance our efficiency gains with this very aggressive execution plan. I think where the other players are today is something that's achievable through time. But we need to do this in a way that we preserve or we don't put our capacity to execute at risk. So our efficiency gains will happen through time.

關於您的第二條評論，請記住，我們有一個非常宏偉的目標，即到 2029 年實現全民普及，並設定年度目標。因此，我們需要在效率提升和這個非常積極的執行計劃之間取得平衡。我認為其他球員今天所處的位置是可以隨著時間的推移而達到的。但我們需要以一種能夠保留的方式來做到這一點，或者不讓我們的執行能力面臨風險。因此我們的效率將隨著時間的推移而提高。

And we don't have a goal. We don't have a target. We don't have a guidance for this. This we'll figure out through time as we get better at the execution of the CapEx. This year is going to be a very relevant year because this is the first one. Our run rate, we are already at the level that we want to be at. So everything looking good, so we can have a better perspective by year-end how we should execute our efficiency goals from an OpEx standpoint. I hope this was clear.

我們沒有目標。我們沒有目標。我們沒有這方面的指導。隨著我們在資本支出執行上做得越來越好，我們會逐漸弄清楚這一點。今年將會是非常重要的一年，因為這是第一年。我們的運行率已經達到了我們想要的水平。一切看起來都很好，所以我們可以在年底前更好地了解如何從營運支出的角度實現我們的效率目標。我希望這是清楚的。

Perfect. Thank you. Thank you very much.

完美的。謝謝。非常感謝。

Maria Carolina, Safra.

瑪麗亞·卡羅琳娜，薩夫拉。

Thanks for the opportunity to participate in the call. A follow-up first on the tariff front, Piani, that you just mentioned. On top of the negotiation with clients for those that you are not able to actually take out the discounts, what would be maybe the alternatives here presenting something to the regulatory agency that might be able to fit here and provide discounts to, I don't know, maybe sectors that need them? At the same time, the company want -- will be able to recover at least part of the gap?

感謝有機會參加此次電話會議。皮亞尼，首先我想跟進一下您剛才提到的關稅問題。除了與那些無法實際獲得折扣的客戶進行談判之外，還有什麼其他選擇可以向監管機構提出一些可能適合的方案，並為那些可能需要折扣的行業提供折扣？同時，該公司希望——能夠彌補至少部分差距？

And secondly, also on the regulatory front here, I understand that May would be an important milestone. The company was supposedly to deliver the first appraisal of the regulatory asset base. If you guys can remind us if that's the correct timetable and how it's going to work in terms of the next important days referring to the tariff review that's supposedly occurring at the end of the year? Thank you.

其次，同樣在監管方面，我知道五月將是一個重要的里程碑。該公司原本將對監管資產基礎進行首次評估。你們能否提醒我們這是否是正確的時間表，以及在接下來的重要日子裡，即預計在年底進行的關稅審查，它將如何進行？謝謝。

Okay. I'll keep here and the next one Daniel gets. Let me start by the end. I think the time line or annual calendar is the following. We finished the year. We have until May of the following year to provide the report of the more incremental investments that we made to the regulator. So this RAB report, incremental RAB report's due on May. We're on track. No worries there.

好的。我會留在這裡，丹尼爾會得到下一個。讓我從結尾開始說。我認為時間軸或年度日曆如下。我們結束了這一年。我們必須在隔年五月之前向監管機構提交我們所做的更多增量投資的報告。因此，該 RAB 報告，即增量 RAB 報告將於 5 月提交。我們正步入正軌。不用擔心。

The regulator has up to the end of September to make an audit and give us a feedback if he accepts 100% or less than 100%. And by November he needs to give an estimate of what's the tariff repositioning or tariff review number that should be applied January 1 the following year. This will happen on every year for the next 10 years. So this is the timing.

監管機構必須在 9 月底之前進行審計，並向我們提供接受率為 100% 或低於 100% 的回饋。到 11 月，他需要對隔年 1 月 1 日應實施的關稅重新定位或關稅審查數字做出估計。未來十年，每年都會發生這種情況。所以時機就是這樣。

Going back to your first question, there was a provision as well in the concession contract to -- for the regulator to evaluate a new discount policy or program for customers that signed contracts after the end of 2022. We already had some discussions with the regulator regarding this program. And since this is a state policy, not even a regulator takes that decision. The government is reviewing these policies, seeing which industries or which sectors they believe they should attract or incentivize in terms of price. So what I can say to our -- to the extent that we could contribute, we already did this. Now it's in the camp of the state to make a decision in terms of a new program.

回到您的第一個問題，特許合約中還有一項規定，即監管機構將針對 2022 年底後簽訂合約的客戶評估新的折扣政策或計劃。我們已經與監管機構就該計劃進行了一些討論。由於這是一項國家政策，因此監管機構也無法做出該決定。政府正在審查這些政策，看看他們認為哪些行業或哪些領域應該在價格方面吸引或激勵措施。因此我可以說，就我們能夠做出的貢獻而言，我們已經這樣做了。現在，由州政府來決定是否實施一項新計劃。

Just to keep in mind, the balance of what stayed with a gap, it's less than three individual clients. So it's not material. And we also -- if this new discount program does not materialize, we're looking, negotiating creative ways to try to offer other solutions like a free-market solution type of other benefits from the captive market to these customers so we can try to reduce or -- in our objective to eliminate 100% of the outstanding balance. So this is our game plan.

只需記住，剩餘的差距小於三個個人客戶。所以這不是物質的。而且，如果這個新的折扣計劃沒有實現，我們也在尋找、協商創造性的方法，嘗試為這些客戶提供其他解決方案，例如自由市場解決方案類型的來自壟斷市場的其他好處，以便我們可以嘗試減少或——在我們的目標中消除 100% 的未償餘額。這就是我們的比賽計劃。

Amazing. Thank you so much.

驚人的。太感謝了。

Bruno Amorim, Goldman Sachs.

高盛的布魯諾·阿莫林。

Thank you for taking my question. I just have a quick follow-up on your strategy to reduce personnel costs. Can you provide more color on the strategy there? And also, will you need to increase other cost lines as you reduce the number of employees? Any color there would be very helpful. Thank you.

感謝您回答我的問題。我只是想快速跟進一下您降低人事成本的策略。您能否提供更多有關該戰略的詳細資訊？此外，當您減少員工數量時，是否需要增加其他成本項目？任何顏色都會很有幫助。謝謝。

Thank you, Bruno. Thank you very much. I think the voluntary dismissal plan is a part of a broader initiative that we have, which is called Sabesp Gente. Sabesp Gente basically has three pillars. The first pillar is internal moves because we have many talented people. And I think what we'll need now as a private, or not a private, but like no longer an SOE, is a bit different than what the company needed when it was an SOE. So there are opportunities for people to be reskilled. So we have a lot of very talented people.

謝謝你，布魯諾。非常感謝。我認為自願解僱計劃是我們更廣泛計劃的一部分，該計劃稱為“Sabesp Gente”。Sabesp Gente 基本上有三個支柱。第一個支柱是內部調動，因為我們有很多人才。我認為，作為一家私人企業，或非私人企業（但不再是國有企業），我們現在所需要的與該公司作為國有企業時所需要的略有不同。因此人們有機會重新掌握技能。所以我們有很多非常有才華的人才。

So we have an important pillar, which is internal recruiting. We had more than 1,000 applicants internally to new positions. We're going to bring -- the second pillar is recruiting. So we're bringing in fresh talent. We've hired 200 people since we joined to the company, and we'll hire another 200, give or take in the following months. And as part of the voluntary-dismissal plan, we had 2,000 give or take, people taking it, right, like we disclosed last quarter. And when we think about that, we mapped at least 400 critical positions that for sure we needed to replace. So that's how I -- we think about that in itself.

因此，我們有一個重要支柱，那就是內部招募。我們內部有超過 1,000 名新職位申請人。我們將帶來－第二個支柱是招募。因此，我們正在引進新的人才。自從加入公司以來，我們已經僱用了 200 名員工，在接下來的幾個月裡，我們還將再僱用 200 名員工。作為自願解僱計劃的一部分，我們有大約 2,000 名員工接受該計劃，就像我們在上個季度所揭露的那樣。當我們考慮到這一點時，我們確定了至少 400 個需要替換的關鍵位置。這就是我——我們對此本身的看法。

When I think about how we continue to work with our personnel, I think there are a few things that you have to keep in mind. The first one is as an SOE and given the career tenure, there are many things that you tack on to the personnel costs, and that's a comparison that everybody used to make about the average personnel cost for SABESP compared to the market and to other companies. And we start to see that change in the mix and the average cost in the new hiring process. So this is one of the things that you have to keep in mind.

當我考慮如何繼續與我們的員工合作時，我認為有幾件事必須牢記在心。第一個問題是，作為一家國有企業，考慮到員工的職業生涯，有很多因素會影響到人員成本，這就是大家過去常常將 SABESP 的平均人員成本與市場和其他公司進行比較的結果。我們開始看到新招募流程中的人員組合和平均成本的變化。所以這是你必須牢記的事情之一。

But I think it's actually the opposite, Bruno. As an SOE, the company had to wait for a public servant test to recruit people. We no longer have to do that. So there were many positions that were hired through third-party services because the company simply couldn't hire people. And we're actually looking at how and which positions of those are actually positions that we want to internalize and actually to make offers to these people. So we actually expect a bit of the opposite.

但我認為事實恰恰相反，布魯諾。作為國有企業，該公司必須等待公務員考試才能招募員工。我們不再需要這樣做了。因此，許多職位都是透過第三方服務招募的，因為公司根本招不到人。我們實際上正在研究如何以及哪些職位實際上是我們想要內化的職位，並實際上向這些人提供職位。所以我們實際上期望的是相反的結果。

And there are other things that are going to materialize in terms of savings and so on. And this will bring in itself savings to the company because we'll no longer have to pay a margin for someone that's actually outsourcing that. But more than that, I think there will be things that will actually require investment, that will require changes in processes that will happen throughout our journey here.

還有一些其他的事情也將在儲蓄等方面實現。這本身就會為公司帶來節省，因為我們不再需要向實際外包的人支付保證金。但更重要的是，我認為有些事情確實需要投資，需要在我們整個旅程中發生流程的改變。

For example, the S/4 go-live, which will happen in the middle of 2026 is, for sure, one of those enablers. But there are many other things that we are doing in terms of investments for smart metering and other things, that will actually enable us to continue becoming more and more efficient and actually using people for more value-added activities vis-a-vis manual repetitive tasks.

例如，將於 2026 年中期上線的 S/4 肯定是其中一個推動因素。但是，我們在智慧計量和其他方面的投資方面還有很多其他事情要做，這些投資實際上將使我們變得越來越有效率，並且實際上可以利用人力來完成比手動重複任務更具附加價值的活動。

Thank you, Daniel.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。

Thank you, Bruno.

謝謝你，布魯諾。

Luiza Candiota, Itau.

路易莎·坎迪奧塔，伊塔烏。

Good morning and thank you for the opportunity. Actually, my question is a follow-up on Bruno's question regarding personnel expenses. So we observed a significant year-over-year reduction in this line, mainly due to the employee layoffs, as you mentioned during the presentation.

早安，感謝您給我這個機會。實際上，我的問題是針對 Bruno 有關人事費用問題的後續問題。因此，我們觀察到該生產線的產量同比大幅下降，這主要是由於員工裁員造成的，正如您在演示中提到的那樣。

I would just like to get more color on the exact impact of the most recent voluntary dismissal program in this quarter? And if you could share more details on the expected cost savings going forward, the expected payback period coming from this program and also the time line for the departures? Thank you.

我只是想進一步了解本季最新的自願解僱計劃的具體影響？您能否分享更多關於未來預期成本節約、該計劃的預期回報期以及出發時間表的詳細資訊？謝謝。

Thank you for your question. I'll take this one too. Look, we had about 2,040 people that actually adhered to the voluntary-dismissal plan. We started the departures in February 2025. So we don't see a lot of impact from that plan in Q1.

感謝您的提問。我也要這個。你看，我們大約有 2,040 人真正遵守了自願解僱計劃。我們將於 2025 年 2 月開始出發。因此，我們認為該計劃在第一季不會產生太大影響。

That said, we ended 2024 with about 10,500 employees, and we ended Q1 with 9,700 employees. So we had already a relatively big departure in March, but the bulk of the departure actually happens between April and May. Okay? So I think at the end of Q2, we should probably be relatively well in terms of the execution itself of the voluntary-dismissal plan. But in parallel, like I mentioned, we'll probably be rehiring some of those positions in the market.

也就是說，到 2024 年底，我們擁有約 10,500 名員工，到第一季末，我們擁有 9,700 名員工。因此，我們在三月已經出現了相對較大規模的離職，但實際上大部分的離職發生在四月至五月之間。好的？因此我認為在第二季末，我們在自願解僱計劃的執行方面應該會相對較好。但同時，正如我所提到的，我們可能會在市場上重新招募一些職位。

But again, at probably a lower average cost as we've seen so far if you compare SOE's average personnel cost compared to regular companies, especially on the base of the pyramid that they're very different. So this is what we'll expect. We'll see in the upcoming months. We are not necessarily disclosing the payback of the plan, but one thing that you should keep in mind is we have a no-layoff policy until January and April 2026 with different triggers. And for sure, the plan has to pay back better than this. So because otherwise we just wait for it, right?

但是，如果將國有企業的平均人員成本與普通公司進行比較，那麼平均成本可能較低，尤其是在金字塔底層，兩者有很大不同。這正是我們所期望的。我們將在接下來的幾個月中看到結果。我們不一定會透露該計劃的回報，但您應該記住的一件事是，我們的裁員政策將持續到 2026 年 1 月和 4 月，但觸發條件會有所不同。當然，該計劃的回報必須比這更好。所以否則只能等待，對嗎？

So I think that's a good thing to keep in mind. It is like what would be your ceiling in terms of payback. That's what we probably could comment on that.

所以我認為這是一件值得記住的好事。這就像你的報酬上限是多少。這大概就是我們可以對此做出的評論。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Francisco Navarrete, [Behinava].

弗朗西斯科·納瓦雷特，[貝希那瓦]。

Thank you, Daniel, Piani, and Thiago. Thank you very much for the call. I just have two questions, if I may. One is regarding the tariff mix. You indicated that because of this mix and the CADÚNICO, you had a negative impact of BRL100 million, or BRL105 million estimated in the first quarter. And first, just to see if I'm getting this right, this would mean that maybe if you forecast it for the full year would be equivalent to about BRL400 million? And then can you recover this at the tariff review?

謝謝你，丹尼爾、皮亞尼和蒂亞戈。非常感謝您的來電。如果可以的話，我只有兩個問題。一是關於關稅組合。您表示，由於這種組合和 CADÃNICO，您受到了 1 億雷亞爾的負面影響，或第一季估計為 1.05 億雷亞爾。首先，我只是想看看我是否理解正確，這是否意味著如果您預測全年的話，可能相當於約 4 億巴西雷亞爾？那麼你能在關稅審查時恢復這一點嗎？

I understand that this increase in the number of consumers with access to subsidized tariffs makes all the sense in the world because there -- you're including them in the CADÚNICO because, of course, they should be enrolled in this program, makes sense, I suppose, and I believe so. But will the regulator be sensible to look at this from the standpoint that this is public policy and should be public policy and not something that should be paid by the company and by investors. And then if I may -- well, sorry Daniel.

我理解，增加享受補貼電價的消費者數量是完全合理的，因為——你把他們納入 CADÃNICO 計劃，因為，當然，他們應該參加這個計劃，我想這是合理的，我也相信是這樣。但監管機構是否會明智地從公共政策的角度來看待這個問題，並且應該是公共政策，而不是由公司和投資者支付的費用。然後如果可以的話——好吧，對不起丹尼爾。

No. Go ahead. If you have a follow-up, go ahead.

不。前進。如果您有後續行動，請繼續。

The second question was only about what Carlos said on the gap -- on the revenue gap that BRL50 million or BRL60 million that will remain. All else held equal, just imagine that just for the sake of argument, we don't get any other fix into this. The curve to get to the BRL50 million , BRL60 million as a permanent gap will be, I imagine, only 2026. Would that be a correct statement? Like first quarter '26 is when I would see this gap going forward of only BRL50 million, BRL60 million, just for the sake of argument? Would that be a correct statement? Those two questions only. Thank you very much.

第二個問題只是關於卡洛斯所說的差距——關於仍將存在 5000 萬巴西雷亞爾或 6000 萬巴西雷亞爾的收入差距。在其他條件相同的情況下，想像一下，僅僅為了爭論，我們不會對此進行任何其他修復。我認為，要到 2026 年才能達到 5,000 萬巴西雷亞爾、6,000 萬巴西雷亞爾的永久缺口。這是一個正確的說法嗎？就像 26 年第一季時我看到的差距只有 5,000 萬巴西雷亞爾、6,000 萬巴西雷亞爾，只是為了爭論？這是一個正確的說法嗎？僅這兩個問題。非常感謝。

Thank you, Nava. Let me first address the mix question, right? We had BRL105 million negative impact from mix. And this is driven by two factors mainly. The first one is as per the new contract, we had -- we used to have social and vulnerable tariffs that had a criteria. And for the new contract, we had to introduce Cadastro Único, had to harmonize Cadastro Único as the eligibility criteria for these tariffs. And that meant that we would exclude people that had access to vulnerable social tariffs with this new scheme. Right?

謝謝你，納瓦。讓我先解決一下混合問題，對嗎？我們因混合而受到了 1.05 億巴西雷亞爾的負面影響。這主要由兩個因素造成。第一個是，根據新合同，我們曾經有過有標準的社會和弱勢關稅。對於新合同，我們必須引入 Cadastro Ãnico，必須將 Cadastro Ãnico 協調為這些關稅的資格標準。這意味著我們將透過這項新計劃將那些可以享受脆弱社會關稅的人排除在外。正確的？

And what we -- when we saw that in December, what we decided to do was to extend that for a few months, which is going to happen until the end of Q2, with access to those subsidized tariffs for many reasons. But in the end, when we think about the BRL105 million that we had in Q1, I would say, Nava, about 60% of that is the adoption of Cadastro Único and that would be, for sure, contemplated into the new tariff revision at the end of the year.

當我們在 12 月看到這種情況時，我們決定將這項政策延長幾個月，一直到第二季末，出於多種原因，我們仍然可以享受這些補貼關稅。但最終，當我們考慮到第一季的 1.05 億巴西雷亞爾時，我會說，Nava，其中約 60% 是採用 Cadastro Ãnico 的成果，而且這肯定會在年底的新關稅修訂中得到考慮。

And if you think about that and you think about the expansion, if you recall, in last quarter's call, one of the investors actually asked the question about how this would impact our mix in terms of economies as we grow, right? Because we typically grow, especially in the metropolitan regions, we grow to lower-income economies, right? So that will be a mix impact. The first year naturally is a negative working capital, I want to say, impact because you get a compensation for that in the next tariff cycle.

如果你考慮到這一點，並考慮到擴張，如果你還記得，在上個季度的電話會議上，其中一位投資者實際上問了一個問題，即這將如何影響我們經濟成長時的經濟組合，對嗎？因為我們通常會成長，特別是在大都會地區，我們會向低收入經濟體成長，對嗎？所以這將會產生混合影響。第一年自然是負營運資本，我想說，這會產生影響，因為您會在下一個關稅週期得到補償。

With the last year, assuming you don't continue growing to lower-income economies, you don't continue worsening your mix with regards to average price, you actually get a positive carryover at the last year. So it's just a head and tail effect with roughly 60% of that. The remaining 40% of that it was done at our discretion as a company, and we'll continue doing that until the end of Q2.

假設去年你不再繼續向低收入經濟體成長，你不再繼續惡化你的平均價格組合，那麼去年你實際上會得到正向結轉。因此，這只是一個頭部和尾部效應，約佔 60%。剩餘的 40% 是我們公司自行決定的，我們會繼續這樣做直到第二季末。

But after -- at which we're discussing together with the regulator and the government, a potential expansion of the subsidized rates to make sure that we encompass the whole population that is currently receiving these discounts. If that does happen, then we would get compensation for that, and we'll keep these people on the tariffs. But that's how you should think about that going forward.

但之後，我們正在與監管機構和政府討論擴大補貼率的可能性，以確保覆蓋目前正在享受這些折扣的所有人口。如果確實發生這種情況，那麼我們將獲得補償，並且我們將繼續對這些人徵收關稅。但這就是你今後應該考慮的問題。

Understood.

明白了。

That's the first question. Your second question with regards to commercial discounts. I think what Piani said is we're -- we first rescinded 580 contracts, give or take. And with that, we captured about BRL500 million of potential discounts, which we have about BRL5 million to BRL6 million per month now that are actually fighting with injunctions, and we so far have been successful at that. We've won more than we lost, so which is always a good thing to happen.

這是第一個問題。您的第二個問題與商業折扣有關。我認為皮亞尼說的是——我們首先撤銷了大約 580 份合約。這樣，我們獲得了約 5 億雷亞爾的潛在折扣，現在我們每月有約 500 萬至 600 萬雷亞爾的折扣用於對抗禁令，到目前為止，我們已經取得了成功。我們贏得的次數比輸掉的次數多，所以這總是一件好事。

And we've taken the remaining BRL260 million that we had in terms of discounts, and we've rescinded another BRL200 million of that. And when we think about those BRL200 million that we've rescinded, naturally, they are not all like a flip of a switch decision, right? So there are some contracts that need to run off. There are some contracts that have 60 days, some contracts that will have 90 days, some that will have 120 days and so on and so forth in different contracts. And we'll potentially see a movement on injunctions as well there.

我們已將剩餘的 2.6 億巴西雷亞爾折扣收回，並取消了其中的 2 億巴西雷亞爾。當我們想到我們已經撤銷的那 2 億巴西雷亞爾時，自然，它們並不都是一瞬間就能做出的決定，對吧？因此有些合約需要履行。有些合約期限為 60 天，有些合約期限為 90 天，有些合約期限為 120 天等等，不同的合約期限也有所不同。我們也可能會看到那裡的禁令動向。

And we're ready for that, and we'll continue to do what we believe is correct and fair for the whole system, which is continue to try to enforce the actual tariff for those clients. But the timing of that could vary depending on that, Nava. I think optimistically, we'd finish the year with all of that captured, and that's what we're working against. But that could vary depending on clients' decisions with regards to trying to enforce that at the legal front. But that would be the part that we don't control.

我們已經做好了準備，我們將繼續做我們認為對整個系統來說正確和公平的事情，那就是繼續努力為這些客戶執行實際關稅。但具體時間可能會根據情況而有所不同，Nava。我認為，樂觀地講，我們將在今年年底完成所有這些目標，而這正是我們努力的目標。但這可能會有所不同，具體取決於客戶在法律方面嘗試執行的決定。但這是我們無法控制的部分。

Nava, just to add a couple of things on the two points. Our commitment was to finance with our own balance sheet until May of this year. We have aligned with the government starting on June or there's going to be a change on eligibility process that will encompass more consumers, or these guys will -- these consumers will become regular residential consumers. So we have discussed many alternatives with the government and with the regulatory agency, and this will happen starting in June. We are going to stop financing at the end of May.

Nava，我只想就這兩點補充幾點。我們的承諾是使用我們自己的資產負債表來融資直到今年五月。我們已經與政府達成一致，從六月開始，資格審查程序將會有所改變，涵蓋更多的消費者，或者說，這些消費者將成為普通的住宅消費者。因此，我們與政府和監管機構討論了許多替代方案，這些討論將從 6 月開始。我們將在五月底停止融資。

So two options, or they become naturally regular consumers, or they are going to be able to receive the benefits given a potential change, and this is going to be compensated two years down the road. This is it. Regarding the discounts, where the injunctions happen because we have no decision at the first level. We're working with the Court of Appeals at the second level. When we get there, this is going to be a judicial prudence.

所以有兩個選擇，要么他們自然而然地成為普通消費者，要么他們將能夠獲得潛在變化帶來的好處，而這將在兩年後得到補償。就是這樣。關於折扣，之所以出現禁令，是因為我們在第一層級沒有做出決定。我們正在與二級上訴法院合作。當我們到達那裡時，這將成為一種司法審慎。

We're going to have a rule that's going to decide this very quickly. So we expect when we get there, there's going to be no injunctions anymore. As Daniel said, probably the longer tenure that we have is 120 days on this new batch of contracts that we're terminating. So all that to say probably this is by year-end. This is unfortunately Brazil; court is a little bit more complicated. But I think we're in a good track to solve all the -- the majority of these problems.

我們將製定一項規則來快速決定這一點。因此，我們預計，當我們到達那裡時，將不再有禁令。正如丹尼爾所說，對於我們即將終止的這批新合同，其期限可能更長，為 120 天。所以，這可能要到年底才能實現。不幸的是，這是巴西；法庭有點複雜。但我認為我們正處於解決所有大部分問題的良好軌道上。

Great. Understood. Thank you very much.

偉大的。明白了。非常感謝。

Thank you, Nava.

謝謝你，納瓦。

Antonio Junqueira, BTG Pactual.

Antonio Junqueira，BTG Pactual。

Morning, guys. My question was mostly answered in Navarrete question. And my question was answered, I guess, mostly, if not 100% of it. I think it's clear like the fingerprints of you guys on cost control, on investments, on the development of new factor. Thanks, by the way, for that slide, is interesting. So I think I can complement his question by asking how the relationship with the regulator is?

早安，大家。我的問題大部分在納瓦雷特問題中都得到了答案。我想，我的問題已經得到了大部分答案，即使不是全部，也已經得到了答案。我認為你們在成本控制、投資、新要素開發方面留下的痕跡非常明顯。順便說一句，謝謝你的幻燈片，很有趣。所以我想我可以補充他的問題，問一下與監管機構的關係如何？

Because this revenue gap thing is a historical problem for SABESP. I think all of us analysts always achieved much larger regulatory revenues than actual revenues. The previous administrations could not explain all the gaps, why the gaps existed. I think there was a philosophical debate on wholesale discounts, on some variables that created that big gap, but the entire gap was never explained. So how is the interaction about all those topics with the regulator?

因為收入差距問題是 SABESP 的歷史問題。我認為我們所有分析師獲得的監管收入總是比實際收入大得多。前幾屆政府無法解釋所有的差距以及為什麼會有這些差距。我認為，關於批發折扣以及造成巨大差距的一些變數存在哲學爭論，但整個差距從未得到解釋。那麼與監管機構就所有這些主題的互動情況如何？

How -- is he receiving it? Because I guess like the regulator has also been a reason for skepticism on our side. So how do you -- how is your confidence level that we're not going to see revenue gap from the tariff event at the end of this year onwards?

他是如何收到它的？因為我猜監管機構也是我們懷疑的一個原因。那麼，您如何看待我們不會在年底關稅事件後看到收入差距的信心水平？

Thank you, Junqueira. I think we can give you our perception, right, and our -- how we think. On an incentive-based regulation, the one -- we have a hybrid regulation, but based on incentive-based regulation where you have RAB concept and regulatory costs and so forth, you need a strong regulator. And this is to the benefit of the company. And I think ours is a strong regulator. And this is helpful to us, right?

謝謝你，Junqueira。我想我們可以告訴你我們的看法，對吧，以及我們的想法。在激勵型監管方面，我們有一個混合監管，但基於激勵型監管，其中有 RAB 概念和監管成本等，需要一個強而有力的監管機構。這對公司有利。我認為我們的監管機構是強而有力的。這對我們有幫助，對吧？

If we had a weak regulator that didn't understand the rules and had different parameters, this would be a different problem to solve. So our interactions based on this has been very good, I would say, as very public relationship, very technical. Many challenges of the new contract for both sides. Of course, I think the expectations of having SABESP as a private player are higher or are the same.

如果我們有一個弱監管者，不了解規則並且有不同的參數，這將是一個需要解決的不同問題。因此，我想說，我們在此基礎上的互動非常好，非常有公共關係，而且非常技術性。新合約對雙方來說都面臨很多挑戰。當然，我認為對 SABESP 作為私人參與者的期望更高或相同。

But at the end of the day, everybody expects more of the private player, and we hope to deliver. I think that we're going to be able at the end of the day to solve most of the issues, I'm not going to guarantee that we're going to solve all the issues, right? But I think we're going to solve most of the issues through time. And I have -- I don't see, to your point, that the agency is a restriction for our performance. I see it the other way.

但最終，每個人都對私人球員抱有更高的期望，我們希望能夠實現這一目標。我認為我們最終能夠解決大多數問題，但我不能保證我們能夠解決所有問題，對嗎？但我認為隨著時間的推移，我們會解決大部分問題。而且我——就你的觀點而言，我並不認為該機構會限制我們的表現。我從另一個角度來看它。

And I'm telling this publicly on this call because I already told them publicly in another event with them on my side, okay? So I think this is to the benefit of SABESP, and I think we would have benefited in other states if we had stronger regulators to have those discussions. And I think through time, we're going to show through results, objective results that this is feasible for us to achieve given this relationship and how competent they are. Thank you.

我在這次電話會議上公開告訴他們這一點，因為我已經在另一個活動中公開告訴他們了，好嗎？所以我認為這對 SABESP 有利，而且我認為如果我們有更強大的監管機構來進行這些討論，其他州也會受益。我認為隨著時間的推移，我們將透過結果、客觀的結果表明，考慮到這種關係以及他們的能力，我們實現這一目標是可行的。謝謝。

Understood. And there's no major pushback, technical pushback on their side when you debate this revenue gap, right?

明白了。當你討論這個收入差距時，他們那邊沒有遇到重大阻力，技術阻力，對嗎？

No. They weren't just -- they said the rules are the rules. You should follow the rules. And when the rules don't make sense, they hear. I can tell you, this is the most technical relationship with our regulator that I had in many years. So far, so good.

不。他們不只是──他們說規則就是規則。你應該遵守規則。當規則不合理時，他們就會聽。我可以告訴你，這是我多年來與監管機構建立的最具技術性的關係。到目前為止，一切都很好。

Thank you, guys.

謝謝你們。

[Andre Sampaio].

[安德烈桑帕約]

Hey, guys. Good morning. Very briefly here. I just want to hear you guys a bit about the rural census? What is the expectation to when we should have that ready? And what do you guys expect in terms of the impact for the project, I mean, the projections going forward? My second question was related to the tariffs as well. So fully already discussed it. So first on the rural census?

嘿，大家好。早安.這裡非常簡短。我只是想聽聽你們對農村人口普查的一些看法？我們預計什麼時候可以準備好？那麼，你們對該計畫的影響有何期待，我的意思是，對未來的預測是什麼？我的第二個問題也與關稅有關。所以已經充分討論過了。那麼首先要進行農村人口普查嗎？

I can take that, this one. We already hired the third-party provider. There was a rule on the contract how to do this. We've already been through this. We're going to start Q3, beginning Q3. There's an 18-month time frame at the very end of the period to validate and provide a final report, but we expect to have intermediary results starting even in the second half of the year, so we can have a basis to compare to the plans that we're doing for the works until the end of the 2029 cycle.

我可以接受這個。我們已經聘請了第三方供應商。合約中有關於如何執行此操作的規定。我們已經經歷過這件事了。我們將開始第三季度，開始第三季度。在該期間的最後階段，有 18 個月的時間來驗證並提供最終​​報告，但我們預計甚至在下半年就能開始獲得中期結果，這樣我們就可以有一個基礎來與我們在 2029 年周期結束前製定的工作計劃進行比較。

So on track, no major issue here. Time frame is long until the end of the year, but probably we, as the concessionary, we're going to receive partial results first and probably the public -- the final results are going to be public at year-end, of next year.

因此一切進展順利，沒有什麼大問題。時間框架很長，直到今年年底，但作為特許經營者，我們可能會先收到部分結果，然後公眾可能會知道最終結果，也就是明年年底才會公佈。

Just to give you a few numbers on that and actual date. The field work actually is going to start in June 2025. So it's going to be a long work, and we'll probably have about 400 people on the ground doing that census, just to give you some color on that.

只是給你一些有關該日期和實際日期的數字。實地工作實際上將於 2025 年 6 月開始。所以這將是一項長期的工作，我們可能會派出大約 400 人到當地進行人口普查，只是為了給你們一些資訊。

And guys, let me see if I get this right. Let's imagine we have a census which are much higher expectation of, let me say, demand for CapEx. That I would say would be something that we would probably have to have some discussion with the regulator and the government about adjusting tariffs potentially on the revision, right?

夥計們，讓我看看我是否理解正確。假設我們進行了一次人口普查，對資本支出的需求預期要高得多。我想說的是，我們可能需要與監管機構和政府進行一些討論，討論修訂後可能調整的關稅，對嗎？

In theory -- let me see if I understand your question. In theory, what you're saying is if there is a variation on the CapEx because in the end, the rural census shows you that you actually have to do more than what was originally thought on the appendix of the concession agreement. Is that how --

理論上——讓我看看我是否理解了你的問題。理論上，您所說的是如果資本支出有變化，因為最終農村人口普查顯示您實際上必須做的比特許協議附錄中最初設想的更多。是這樣嗎--

Yes.

是的。

Okay. In the end, given the contractual model that we have, if the CapEx is prudent, it gets compensated on the RAB. For sure, the concession, so [the RAI] has an expectation of how much the tariffs are going to increase to the consumers. And if that's materially different, they, of course, need to discuss and understand. But in theory, there shouldn't be a change to the contract. It may be a change in expectations, but it shouldn't represent a change in the contract.

好的。最後，考慮到我們現有的合約模式，如果資本支出是審慎的，它將在 RAB 上得到補償。當然，這是讓步，因此 [RAI] 對消費者的關稅將增加多少有一個預期。如果存在實質差異，他們當然需要討論和理解。但理論上，合約不應該改變。這可能是期望的改變，但不應代表合約的改變。

Yes. Let me add here. There's a provision in the contract. If there's a gap larger or equal to 3 percentage points in coverage on the eve of switching between 2026 and '27, there may be a time to discuss. So that's the provision. And maybe depending on the census where you have a larger rural population than expected, this may be triggered. We don't see this. This is -- it won't happen on the eve of 2027. We'll receive this by municipality. And the final result will happen just by year-end of 2026.

是的。讓我在這裡補充一下。合約裡有規定。如果在 2026 年和 2027 年之間轉換前夕，覆蓋率的差距大於或等於 3 個百分點，則可能需要進行討論。這就是規定。也許根據人口普查，農村人口可能比預期的多，這可能會引發這種情況。我們沒有看到這一點。這是——它不會在2027年前夕發生。我們將透過市政當局接收此資訊。最終結果將在2026年底揭曉。

So we'll see the buildup of this gap through time, and we'll have the time to manage this deviation from expectation, okay? We just need to understand how we can communicate this to the market given this is under the regulatory contract. But we don't see, just to be clear, this is an issue or additional risk for SABESP. We're on track and everything is working well.

因此，我們會看到這種差距隨著時間的推移而逐漸增大，我們將有時間來管理這種與預期的偏差，好嗎？我們只需要了解如何在監管合約的框架下將這種情況傳達給市場。但我們並不認為，需要明確的是，這對 SABESP 來說是一個問題或額外的風險。我們一切進展順利，一切進展順利。

Thanks for the time.

謝謝你的時間。

Thank you. The Q&A session is now over. We wish to give the floor back to Mr. Carlos Piani for the company's closing remarks.

謝謝。問答環節現已結束。我們希望將公司的閉幕詞交還給卡洛斯·皮亞尼先生。

So thank you, all, for the questions, and thank you again for joining us today.

謝謝大家的提問，再次感謝大家今天加入我們。

We appreciate your continued interest and support as we move forward with the transformation of SABESP. We know that the road ahead is ambitious, but we're confident in the path that we're taking. And more importantly, in our ability to deliver results that create value for all stakeholders. We look forward to keeping you updated on our progress in the coming quarters. Have all a great day today. Bye-bye.

我們感謝您在我們推動 SABESP 轉型過程中給予的持續關注和支持。我們知道，前面的道路充滿艱辛，但我們對我們所走的道路充滿信心。更重要的是，我們有能力為所有利害關係人創造價值。我們期待在未來幾季向您通報我們的進展。祝大家今天過得愉快。再見。

SABESP earnings presentation is now closed. Thank you very much for your participation, and we wish you all a very good day.

SABESP 收益報告現已結束。非常感謝您的參與，並祝福大家有個愉快的一天。