Companhia de Saneamento Basico do Estado de Sao Paulo - SABESP (SBS) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good morning, and welcome to SABESP fourth quarter of 2024 earnings presentation. With us here today are Carlos Piani, CEO; Daniel Szlak, CFO; and Thiago Levy, Investor Relations.

早上好，歡迎參加 SABESP 2024 年第四季財報。今天與我們在一起的有執行長 Carlos Piani； Daniel Szlak，財務長；以及投資者關係部的 Thiago Levy。

Before we begin, we clarify that the statements made during this presentation will not include projections or estimates of future events. However, they may contain forward-looking statements indicating potential trends related to SABESP based on the reasonable expectations, beliefs, and assumptions of SABESP's management as of today. These statements involve risks and uncertainties and are based on assumptions and factors such as market, regulatory, and economic conditions, which may not materialize in addition to the risk factors disclosed in SABESP's filings with the Brazilian Securities and Exchange Commission, B3, and on its Investor Relations website. Investors should understand that changes in such factors may lead to outcomes that differ from current trends and that undue reliance should not be placed on these statements. The full disclaimer will be presented next and must be read carefully by all participants.

在開始之前，我們要澄清的是，本次演講中的陳述不包括對未來事件的預測或估計。但是，它們可能包含前瞻性陳述，根據 SABESP 管理層截至今天的合理預期、信念和假設，表明與 SABESP 相關的潛在趨勢。這些聲明涉及風險和不確定性，基於市場、監管和經濟條件等假設和因素，除了 SABESP 向巴西證券交易委員會 B3 提交的文件和投資者關係網站上披露的風險因素外，這些假設和因素可能不會實現。投資人應該明白，這些因素的變化可能會導致與當前趨勢不同的結果，因此不應過度依賴這些聲明。接下來將提供完整的免責聲明，所有參與者必須仔細閱讀。

I will now turn the floor over to Thiago Levy, who will discuss the results. Thiago, you may proceed.

現在我將把發言權交給蒂亞戈·列維，他將討論結果。蒂亞戈，你可以繼續。

Good afternoon. My name is Thiago Levy. I'm the Investor Relations Director at SABESP. Welcome to our fourth-quarter earnings results call. Today, I'm joined by our CEO, Carlos Piani, and our CFO and Investor Relations Officer, Mr. Daniel Szlak.

午安.我叫蒂亞戈·列維。我是 SABESP 的投資者關係總監。歡迎參加我們的第四季收益結果電話會議。今天，與我一起出席的還有我們的執行長 Carlos Piani 先生和我們的財務長兼投資者關係長 Daniel Szlak 先生。

Before handing it over to Daniel, I would like to share some important update. As the majority of our investor base consists of international investors, we will now conduct these earnings calls in English with simultaneous translation into Portuguese. Please note that this call is being recorded. (Operator Instructions) Additionally, all the relevant files for this call will be available on our Investor Relations website.

在將其交給丹尼爾之前，我想分享一些重要的更新。由於我們的投資者群體主要由國際投資者組成，因此我們現在將以英語進行這些收益電話會議，並同時將其翻譯成葡萄牙語。請注意，本次通話正在錄音。（操作員指示）此外，本次電話會議的所有相關文件將在我們的投資者關係網站上提供。

With that, I will now turn it over to Daniel, who will walk us through our 2024 financial highlights.

現在，我將把話題交給丹尼爾，他將向我們介紹我們 2024 年的財務亮點。

Thank you, Thiago. Good morning to all our partners. Thank you for joining us today for our 2024 full year's earnings call. We will start by looking at our operational highlights. The company has produced and treated significant volumes of Water and Sewage, ensuring the quality and reliability of our services. Our customer base has continued to grow with an increase in both registered and active water and sewage connections. This growth is a testament to our ongoing efforts to meet the needs of our customers, universalization targets, and provide excellent service.

謝謝你，蒂亞戈。各位合作夥伴早安。感謝您今天參加我們的 2024 年全年財報電話會議。我們先來看看我們的營運亮點。該公司生產和處理了大量的水和污水，確保了我們服務的品質和可靠性。隨著註冊和活躍的水和污水處理連接的增加，我們的客戶群持續成長。這一成長證明了我們為滿足客戶需求、實現普遍化目標和提供優質服務所做的持續努力。

Now let's move on to our financial highlights for the year 2024. We have achieved net operational revenues of roughly BRL21.7 billion, an increase of 8.8% compared to the previous year. Our EBITDA has grown by 18.8%, reaching BRL11.4 billion. Additionally, our net profit has seen a remarkable increase of 172%, amounting to BRL9.5 billion and allowing us to propose a BRL2.5 billion distribution to our shareholders, which represents a 4.2% dividend yield considering our market cap at the end of 2024, and it's more than 2.5 times 2023's distribution.

現在讓我們來看看 2024 年的財務亮點。我們實現營業淨收入約217億雷亞爾，比上年增長8.8%。我們的 EBITDA 成長了 18.8%，達到 114 億巴西雷亞爾。此外，我們的淨利潤大幅成長了 172%，達到 95 億雷亞爾，這使我們能夠向股東分配 25 億雷亞爾，考慮到我們 2024 年底的市值，這相當於 4.2% 的股息收益率，是 2023 年分配的 2.5 倍多。

Now moving forward on the revenue front, the growth was driven by a 7.5% net price and mix increase, 3% growth in volumes, where we added 35,000 new connections. These were partially offset by a negative 2% impact from the introduction of FAUSP in July. On the EBITDA front, we had favorability driven by: one, the revenue growth I just mentioned; and two, the reduction of 11% of our workforce with the incentivized dismissal plan from 2023. These two favorable drivers were partially offset by the increasing number of cities that receive municipal transfers. It is important to remember that this last driver is a pass-through in the rates and should be picked up in the annual tariff adjustments.

現在從收入方面來看，成長是由 7.5% 的淨價格和組合成長以及 3% 的數量成長所推動的，其中我們增加了 35,000 個新連結。但 7 月推出 FAUSP 帶來的 2% 的負面效應部分抵銷。在 EBITDA 方面，我們受到以下因素的推動：一是我剛才提到的營收成長；二是從2023年起透過激勵解僱計畫減少11%的員工。這兩個有利的驅動因素被接受市政轉移支付的城市數量的增加部分抵消。重要的是要記住，最後一個驅動因素是費率的傳導，應該在年度關稅調整中反映出來。

Our operations have generated 53% more cash than prior year, reaching BRL7.4 billion operating free cash flow in 2024, and we have deployed substantial investments in water and sewage infrastructure, with a total investment of BRL6.9 billion and growing. This demonstrates our commitment to accelerating the universalization, bringing dignity in a better center of living inside our concession area. Finally, on the covenant side, we remain very comfortable, an important competitive advantage in times where base interest rates are high globally, where our net debt-to-EBITDA ratio stands at 1.8%, and our interest coverage ratio sits at 5.1%. We have also been able to maintain the same level of operational return on capital. These KPIs highlight our strong financial position and the financial strength of our business.

我們的營運產生的現金比前一年增加了 53%，2024 年的營運自由現金流達到 74 億雷亞爾，並且我們在水和污水處理基礎設施方面進行了大量投資，總投資額達到 69 億雷亞爾且還在增長。這表明我們致力於加速普及化，在我們的特許經營區內實現更有尊嚴的更好的生活。最後，在契約方面，我們仍然非常舒適，在全球基準利率較高的時期，這是一個重要的競爭優勢，我們的淨負債與 EBITDA 比率為 1.8%，我們的利息覆蓋率為 5.1%。我們也能夠維持相同水準的資本營運報酬率。這些 KPI 凸顯了我們強勁的財務狀況和業務的財務實力。

Now I would like to pass to our CEO, Mr. Carlos Piani, for the next chapter. Thank you, and see you on the Q&A.

現在，我想將下一章交給我們的執行長卡洛斯·皮亞尼先生。謝謝，問答環節再見。

Thanks, Daniel. I would also like to thank you all for joining our fourth quarter 2024 conference call. We're proud of the opportunities we've embraced and the groundwork laid to address the challenges ahead. So let's start moving to the next slide, and let's talk about our priorities.

謝謝，丹尼爾。我還要感謝大家參加我們的 2024 年第四季電話會議。我們為所抓住的機會和為應對未來挑戰奠定的基礎感到自豪。那麼讓我們開始下一張投影片，討論一下我們的優先事項。

In our third-quarter earnings call, we presented a slide outlining the long-term priorities of SABESP's new management team. These priorities fall in three main categories: first, new challenges created by the privatization and the new concession agreement, such as the advancement of our universalization goals from 2023 to 2029 and the inclusion of informal and rural consumers, which were not previously mandatory in all concession areas; second, operational efficiency, setting a new performance standard for SABESP as a privately controlled corporation; third, corporate foundations, updating people, structure, systems, and processes that will support sustainable long-term growth.

在我們的第三季財報電話會議上，我們用投影片概述了 SABESP 新管理團隊的長期優先事項。這些優先事項主要分為三類：首先，私有化和新的特許協議帶來的新挑戰，例如將我們的普遍化目標從 2023 年推進到 2029 年，並納入非正規消費者和農村消費者，而這在以前並不是所有特許領域都必須遵循的；第二，運營效率，為SABESP作為一家私營公司設立了新企業的績效標準；

Now with that said, I would like to take you through the progress we made on each of these fronts in the fourth quarter of last year. Let's move ahead.

現在，我想向大家介紹一下我們去年第四季在各方面的進展。我們繼續前進吧。

Starting with our CapEx program. In the fourth quarter of last year, we fundamentally changed how we contract works and projects. Previously, SABESP could only engage suppliers through public tenders. With the privatization, we adopted a request for proposal model, divided large projects into smaller packages to attract more suppliers and reduce execution risk, update the contract templates, and streamline payment processes based on a new project execution timeline. These changes allowed us to contract approximately BRL15 billion in CapEx by year-end, more than doubling our pool of qualified suppliers.

從我們的 CapEx 計劃開始。去年第四季度，我們從根本上改變了工程和專案的承包方式。在此之前，SABESP 只能透過公開招標來吸引供應商。隨著私有化，我們採用了提案請求模型，將大型專案劃分為較小的專案包以吸引更多的供應商並降低執行風險，更新合約模板，並根據新的專案執行時間表簡化付款流程。這些變化使我們在年底前簽訂了約 150 億巴西雷亞爾的資本支出合同，合格供應商數量增加了一倍以上。

We entered 2025 with nearly 100% of the CapEx needed to meet our universalization goals already contracted. The focus now shifts fully to execution. On the new concession agreement, we've taken important regulatory steps. First, we notified 550 clients about their termination of legacy discount contracts that lacked regulatory or tariff coverage. This represents a revenue gap of approximately BRL480 million per year that we're working to recover. A small number of clients are challenging this legally, but we are cautiously optimistic that these issues will be resolved without any major litigation.

進入 2025 年，我們已簽訂了實現普遍化目標所需的近 100% 的資本支出合約。現在焦點完全轉移到執行上。在新的特許協議方面，我們採取了重要的監管措施。首先，我們通知 550 名客戶終止缺乏監管或關稅覆蓋的舊折扣合約。這意味著每年約有 4.8 億巴西雷亞爾的收入缺口，我們正在努力彌補。少數客戶正在對此提出法律挑戰，但我們謹慎樂觀地認為，這些問題將在不引起重大訴訟的情況下解決。

We are also working with the remaining discounted consumers now within the BRL300 million limit set by the new concession agreement to help them meet the criteria that allow for us to recover this amount for tariffs. In parallel, we submitted to assess our regulatory agency, a proposal for a new discount policy that addresses some of the needs of these terminated clients. This proposal was allowed under the new concession agreement and is currently under review. Another historical regulatory gap came from billing reforms and cancellations not considered by the regulated during tariff reviews.

我們也正在與新特許協議規定的 3 億雷亞爾限額內的其餘折扣消費者合作，以幫助他們達到允許我們收回這筆關稅金額的標準。同時，我們向評估監管機構提交了一份新的折扣政策提案，該提案旨在滿足這些已終止客戶的部分需求。該提案已根據新的特許協議獲得批准，目前正在審查中。另一個歷史監管漏洞來自於關稅審查期間監管機構未考慮的計費改革和取消。

Since August 2024, we've standardized this process, resulting in a 28% reduction in the fourth quarter of last year compared to the full-year average. We expect further gains in 2025. Finally, we submitted the company's regulatory asset base for the 2019-2023 period and the 2024 period to ARSESP in the second half of last year, and we anticipate formal feedback in the third quarter of this year.

自2024年8月起，我們已對此流程進行了標準化，導致去年第四季的排放量與全年平均排放量相比減少了28%。我們預計 2025 年還會進一步成長。最後，我們在去年下半年向ARSESP提交了公司2019-2023年期間和2024年期間的監管資產基礎，預計今年第三季會收到正式回饋。

Moving to the next page. Operationally, we saw immediate improvements. In the Southern Metropolitan division, targeted investments improved water flow for roughly 400,000 residents. On the coast of Sao Paulo, where the population multiplies during the summer, our seasonal plan cut water shortages by 30% year over year, a significant win during peak demand.

移至下一頁。在操作上，我們看到了立竿見影的改善。在南部大都會區，有針對性的投資改善了約 40 萬居民的供水狀況。在聖保羅海岸，夏季人口會倍增，我們的季節性計畫使水資源短缺問題比去年同期減少了 30%，這在用水高峰期是一個重大勝利。

We also consolidated and standardized operations. We've reduced the number of operating divisions from 15 to 11, mirroring the division that is described in the concession agreements in terms of geography. Second, we merged all Water, Sewage, and Maintenance functions into single corporate divisions, unlocking future synergies in terms of processes, systems, and inventories.

我們也整合並規範了營運。我們已將營運部門數量從 15 個減少到 11 個，與特許協議中按地理區域描述的分部一致。其次，我們將所有水、污水和維護職能合併為單一公司部門，從而釋放流程、系統和庫存方面的未來綜效。

Commercially, we concluded the CadUnico enrollment campaign, adding 400,000 consumers to our affordable tariff program. We are now focusing on those who lost benefits under the new rules and extended them for up to six months to allow them to have time to meet national eligibility criteria. We're working closely with municipalities to avoid exclusions. We also implemented new revenue assurance and disconnection policies. These will support better collections and help reduce non-revenue water in this 2025 year.

在商業方面，我們完成了 CadUnico 註冊活動，為我們的經濟適用電價計劃增加了 40 萬名消費者。我們現在關注的是那些根據新規定失去福利的人，並將福利期限延長至六個月，以使他們有時間滿足國家資格標準。我們正在與各市政當局密切合作，以避免被排除在外。我們也實施了新的收入保障和斷開連接政策。這些將支持更好的收集並有助於減少 2025 年的非收入水。

On the financial front, we introduced zero-based budgeting, ZBB. Every expense now has a defined owner and must be justified within a matrix management framework. We expect measurable cost savings in 2025. We also prepaid our most expensive debts. We hedged our foreign currency liabilities, and we began raising new debt to support our heavy CapEx requirements for 2025.

在財務方面，我們引入了零基預算（ZBB）。現在每項開支都有明確的責任人，並且必須在矩陣管理框架內證明。我們預計 2025 年將實現顯著的成本節約。我們也預付了最昂貴的債務。我們對沖了外幣債務，並開始籌集新債務以支持 2025 年龐大的資本支出需求。

Now let's move to the next slide to talk about people, tech, and systems. In terms of people, we've finalized our level 1 and level 2 leadership teams, achieving a 50-50 blend of internal talent and external hires. We launched a voluntary termination plan with over 2,000 employees enrolled, representing nearly 20% of our workforce. Their average tenure is 28 years with departures phased through April 2025 to ensure smooth transitions. We opened internal hiring for 200 new operational and back office roles and received nearly 1,900 applications, an extraordinary response.

現在讓我們翻到下一張投影片來討論人員、技術和系統。在人員方面，我們已經確定了一級和二級領導團隊，實現了內部人才和外部招募人員比例為 50-50。我們推出了一項自願離職計劃，超過 2,000 名員工參與其中，占我們員工總數的近 20%。他們的平均任期為 28 年，並將分階段離任，直至 2025 年 4 月，以確保平穩過渡。我們開放了 200 個新的營運和後台職位內部招聘，並收到了近 1,900 份申請，反應非常好。

On technology, we renegotiated the SAP S/4 HANA implementation contract and changed our integration partners, targeting a go-live in the second quarter of 2026. We also strengthened our IT infrastructure and cybersecurity posture. Lastly, we have begun preparations to ensure full compliance with Brazil's upcoming tax reform expected to begin rolling out in 2026.

在技​​術方面，我們重新協商了 SAP S/4 HANA 實施合同，並更換了整合合作夥伴，目標在 2026 年第二季度上線。我們也加強了 IT 基礎架構和網路安全態勢。最後，我們已經開始準備，以確保全面遵守巴西即將於 2026 年開始實施的稅務改革。

Moving to the next slide, I would like to go over our 2025 plan pillars. Our 2025 plan is centered on six key pillars.

下一張投影片中，我想介紹我們的 2025 年計畫支柱。我們的 2025 計畫圍繞著六大關鍵支柱。

First, CapEx execution. We aim to connect around 1 million new units, primarily for sewage treatment to meet our 2025 universalization targets. This is priority number one. Second, regulatory GAAP reduction. We have clear, actionable plans and aim to resolve a significant portion of these outstanding gaps in 2025. Third, metering and collections. We're accelerating meter park modernization and strengthening our collection policy to boost measured volumes and cash flow. Fourth, cost efficiency. With ZBB routines now in place, we expect to see a reduction in operational expenses through the year.

首先，資本支出執行。我們的目標是連接約 100 萬個新裝置，主要用於污水處理，以實現我們 2025 年的普及目標。這是首要任務。第二，監管GAAP減少。我們有明確、可行的計劃，目標是到 2025 年解決大部分尚未解決的差距。第三，計量和收集。我們正在加速計量站的現代化建設，並加強我們的收集政策，以提高計量量和現金流。第四，成本效益。隨著零基預算 (ZBB) 制度的實施，我們預計全年的營運費用將會減少。

Fifth, operating and maintenance productivity. We'll review outsourced contracts to ensure our suppliers also pursue productivity gains. Sixth and lastly, culture and digital transformation. We're driving a shift towards higher performance through new rituals, routines, and processes. Along SAP, 2025 will see progress on CRM upgrades, OT solutions, and the rollout of our advanced metering infrastructure mandated in Sao Paulo and (inaudible).

第五，營運和維護效率。我們將審查外包合同，以確保我們的供應商也追求生產力的提高。第六，也是最後一點，文化與數位轉型。我們正在透過新的儀式、慣例和流程推動向更高性能的轉變。除了 SAP，2025 年還將在 CRM 升級、OT 解決方案以及在聖保羅和（聽不清楚）。

These projects will make SABESP home to the largest smart water metering network in the world by the end of 2029.

這些計畫將使SABESP到2029年底成為世界上最大的智慧水計量網路。

In closing, I would like to say that we've only been at the helm for five months, but we are energized by the road ahead. 2025 is the year when SABESP's transformation will truly begin.

最後，我想說，我們執掌公司才五個月，但我們對未來的道路充滿信心。 2025年是SABESP真正開始轉型的一年。

With that, let's open the floor for questions.

現在，讓我們開始提問。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指令）

Good afternoon, everyone. We're going to start -- welcome to the Q&A session. We're going to start with a question that has been coming up a lot since we released the results, which is the bridge from the reported EBITDA to the adjusted EBITDA. And I'll pass to Daniel to explain that. Go on, Daniel.

大家下午好。我們將開始－歡迎參加問答環節。我們將從一個自我們發布結果以來經常出現的問題開始，即從報告的 EBITDA 到調整後的 EBITDA 的橋樑。我將請丹尼爾來解釋這一點。繼續，丹尼爾。

Thank you, Thiago. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for your questions throughout the day and here on the chat. Thank you for being here. It's always good to connect with all our investors.

謝謝你，蒂亞戈。謝謝大家。感謝您今天以及在聊天中提出的問題。感謝您的光臨。與我們所有的投資者建立聯繫總是一件好事。

So on Q4, we basically had five sets of adjustments. We've had an accrual for taxes on unbilled revenue that we've done that the company was not doing before. We've also made an accrual for BRL630 million for the SABESP (inaudible) voluntary termination plan portion that's basically for severance. And we've also given an incentive to the internal people that was approved by the Board throughout -- right after we joined the company to accelerate the unitization of works that had been in construction for a while.

因此在第四季度，我們基本上進行了五組調整。我們對未開票收入提了稅款，而公司以前沒有這樣做過。我們也為 SABESP（聽不清楚）自願終止計畫部分提列了 6.3 億巴西雷亞爾，主要用於遣散費。我們也對內部人員給予了激勵，這項激勵措施自我們加入公司後就得到了董事會的批准，旨在加速已在建工程的單元化。

So we've been able to accelerate that throughout. And you can see that in our work in progress assets that has been a reduction in that number year-on-year, which we expect to continue maintaining the pace. So those were the two items inside the personnel line and that I think also answered a lot of the questions that were on the Q&A.

因此，我們能夠加速這一進程。您可以看到，我們在建資產的數量同比有所減少，我們預計將繼續保持這一速度。因此，這是人事線內的兩項內容，我認為這也回答了問答環節中的許多問題。

We also did our annual inventory cycle. We've been able to significantly expand that, and we've implemented new policies for inventory cycle counts that generated an impact of BRL95 million for slow move and inventory differences. We've also had BRL60 million of consulting firms of post-privatization PMI and also some expenses that we had to incur throughout Q4 to help with the mitigation of the cyber incident that we had.

我們也進行了年度盤點。我們已經能夠大幅擴展這一範圍，並且我們已經實施了新的庫存循環盤點政策，這對滯銷和庫存差異產生了 9500 萬巴西雷亞爾的影響。我們也向私有化後的 PMI 顧問公司投資了 6,000 萬雷亞爾，並且在整個第四季度我們也承擔了一些費用，以幫助緩解我們遇到的網路事件。

And last but not least, there were also some costs from the privatization offer that were booked in Q4. We had some in Q3. Some of them were booked in Q4, mainly with regards to pause insurance and some other minor PP&E assets that we wrote off. So those were the adjustments that we've included in the Q4 EBITDA, thinking about what we believe is the recurring profitability and underlying business.

最後但同樣重要的一點是，私有化要約產生的一些成本已在第四季計入。我們在第三季有一些。其中一些是在第四季度登記的，主要是暫停保險和我們註銷的一些其他小型 PP&E 資產。所以這些就是我們在第四季 EBITDA 中所做的調整，考慮了我們認為的經常性獲利能力和基礎業務。

Great. Thank you. We're going to switch to the second question, which came a lot as well from Maria Carolina from Safra, Marcelo Sa from Itau, and Vladimir from XP. It's regarding the personnel line. So can you detail the manageable cost performance, especially personnel line ex the impact of redundancy program, which was implemented in December. Can you comment on that reduction in the personnel line for the fourth quarter versus fourth quarter '23?

偉大的。謝謝。我們將轉到第二個問題，Safra 的 Maria Carolina、Itau 的 Marcelo Sa 和 XP 的 Vladimir 也多次提出這個問題。這是關於人員線的問題。那麼您能否詳細說明可管理的成本績效，特別是人員方面的成本績效，例如 12 月實施的裁員計畫的影響。您能評論一下與23年第四季相比第四季人員減少的情況嗎？

Sure. Absolutely. And thank you, Carlo and Marcelo, and I think someone else also asked that question.

當然。絕對地。謝謝卡洛和馬塞洛，我想其他人也問過這個問題。

Maria.

瑪麗亞。

So yes. So thank you for the question here. It's super important. I think on that front, right, when we exclude the impact of the voluntary termination plan and all the other aspects that I just mentioned, we have basically two impacts. We had the voluntary dismissal plan in 2023.

所以是的。感謝您提出這個問題。這非常重要。我認為在這方面，當我們排除自願終止計劃的影響和我剛才提到的所有其他方面時，我們基本上有兩個影響。我們在2023年制定了自願解僱計畫。

So year-on-year, there was a gain from that, and we had a 5.5% lower personnel number in terms of number of people year-on-year on Q4. And on top of that, as we came in, we've been revising many processes, right? Like I mentioned the one, for example, on the inventory cycle counts and so on and so forth. We've done that in Q3 as well. And we've started focusing on the core processes and the most critical ones, the ones that we believe are mostly linked to the business.

因此與去年同期相比，我們的員工數量有所增加，但第四季度我們的員工數量比去年同期下降了 5.5%。除此之外，我們加入後就修改了許多流程，對嗎？就像我提到的那樣，例如關於庫存循環盤點等等。我們在第三季也這樣做了。我們已經開始專注於核心流程和最關鍵的流程，我們認為這些流程與業務最相關。

And when we look at them, one of the processes that we've revised was the CapEx and the unitization process. And we've revised also the pickup on indirect costs linked to CapEx or not. And we've adjusted that to what we believe reflects the best and the most accurate number. And the sum of those two things is actually what drove the personnel gain quarter-on-quarter. Keep in mind that this adjustment that was done in Q4 with regards to the methodology on the indirect pickup was done in Q4 for everything that happened in the year.

當我們審視它們時，我們發現我們修改的流程之一是資本支出和單元化流程。我們也修改了與資本支出是否相關的間接成本的增加。我們已經對其進行了調整，以使其成為我們認為最能反映最佳和最準確的數字。這兩件事的結合其實就是推動人員數量較上季成長的因素。請記住，第四季度針對間接提款方法所做的調整是針對全年發生的所有事情在第四季度進行的。

And on top of that, when we look at the CapEx for the year, we've been able to significantly accelerate the CapEx in Q4, right? We've executed 40% of the CapEx of the year in Q4. So we've also absorbed more of that. So I think the combination of those three things is actually what drove the gain.

除此之外，當我們查看今年的資本支出時，我們已經能夠在第四季度大幅加快資本支出，對嗎？我們在第四季執行了今年資本支出的 40%。因此我們也吸收了更多這樣的知識。所以我認為這三者的結合其實才是推動收益的因素。

The next question is from Bruno Amorim from Goldman Sachs. Is the company involved in the Universaliza Sao Paulo program? Any updates you could provide on the timing?

下一個問題來自高盛的布魯諾·阿莫林。該公司是否參與了Universaliza Sao Paulo 計劃？您能提供有關時間安排的任何更新嗎？

I'll take this one, Levy. Thank you for the question. This process is being managed by the state of Sao Paulo. So we don't control the timing. What we have been told is this is something to be, I think, concluded by the beginning in first quarter, maybe second quarter of 2026.

我要這個，利維。感謝您的提問。這一過程由聖保羅州管理。所以我們無法控制時間。我們被告知，我認為這一結果將在 2026 年第一季初或第二季初得出。

From our side, we're interested. I think we have a huge presence in the state of Sao Paulo. Despite the fact that we're early days in our transformation, I think we cannot lose the opportunity to look at opportunities in our own state. So for sure, we'll take a look, and we'll evaluate the risk-reward relationship of this opportunity when it arises. We have had early discussions. But I would say, these have been still early days. Nothing that, at least from our side, that has been material. I think things will pick up, I think, by the second half of the year.

從我們這方面來說，我們很感興趣。我認為我們在聖保羅州擁有巨大的影響力。儘管我們的轉型才剛開始，我認為我們不能失去在我們自己的州尋找機會的機會。因此，我們肯定會進行研究，並在此機會出現時評估其風險回報關係。我們已經進行了早期討論。但我想說，現在還太早。至少從我們這方面來看，還沒有任何實質進展。我認為到今年下半年情況會好轉。

The next question comes also from Bruno Amorim, and also Carolina from Safra asked that will we see the benefits of the lower discounts to large clients already in first-quarter results? Or are you waiting for any approval from the regulator to implement the new prices?

下一個問題也來自 Bruno Amorim，並且 Safra 的 Carolina 也問道，我們是否已經在第一季的業績中看到了對大客戶降低折扣的好處？或者您正在等待監管機構的批准來實施新的價格？

I'll take this one as well. Thank you, Bruno and Carolina. I think we'll see this impact more in the second quarter than first quarter. I don't -- we're not going to see as much. I think there's a timing of the reading of the meters of each customer at the time of the termination of the contract.

我也要這個。謝謝你，布魯諾和卡羅萊納。我認為，第二季的影響會比第一季更大。我不認為我們會見到那麼多。我認為在合約終止時對每個客戶抄表的時間都有一個規定。

We also had a little bit more higher number of injunctions at the beginning that we were able to win, so I really believe that this change will be material more starting on the second quarter of 2025. Having said that, we also -- we expect a return by the regulator on the new policy. We haven't had a return yet, and that may also impact how this plays out. But I think it's going to be more mature in the second quarter than first quarter.

我們一開始贏得的禁令數量也稍微多一些，因此我真的相信，從 2025 年第二季開始，這項變更將更加實質。話雖如此，我們也預期監管機構會對新政策做出回應。我們還沒有回報，這也可能影響事情的發展。但我認為第二季將比第一季更加成熟。

Okay. Next question also comes from Marcelo from Itau. What is your expectation in terms of personnel savings following the voluntary dismissal program? Is all the costs related to this program booked or could be more?

好的。下一個問題也來自伊塔烏的馬塞洛。您對自願解僱計畫實施後人員節省的預期是什麼？此計劃的所有費用都已預訂了嗎或可能更多？

Marcelo, thank you for the question. I'll take this one. Look, we try not to give guidance. Really, we've given information that we believe is going to be material enough on the presentation to try to estimate that in the models. But with regards to any additional cost that we expect to incur, no, there aren't any additional costs that we expect to incur with regards to the voluntary dismissal plan.

馬塞洛，謝謝你的提問。我要這個。看，我們盡量不給出指導。實際上，我們已經提供了我們認為在演示中足夠重要的信息，以便嘗試在模型中對其進行估計。但關於我們預計將產生的任何額外費用，不，我們預計不會產生與自願解僱計劃相關的任何額外費用。

Let me see if we have any more. Just came one from an investor, does the reduction in contract assets from BRL7.4 billion in '23 to BRL4.8 billion in '24 indicate that there will be an increase in the RAB beyond CapEx?

讓我看看是否還有更多。剛剛有一位投資者問，合約資產從 23 年的 74 億雷亞爾減少到 24 年的 48 億雷亞爾，這是否表明 RAB 將超過資本支出？

Thank you, Thiago. I'll take this one. I think the short answer is yes, right? I think one of the things that we've been trying to do since we got here is really to look at what the company had in inventory and try to understand why wasn't that already put into work, right, because that's the trigger for the unitization and really try to remove the bottlenecks and make this part of the CapEx plan that we have because these works have been executed for some reason there and make sure that we take advantage of that and not reinvent the wheel.

謝謝你，蒂亞戈。我要這個。我認為簡短的回答是肯定的，對嗎？我認為，自從我們來到這裡以來，我們一直在嘗試做的事情之一就是查看公司有哪些庫存，並試圖理解為什麼這些庫存沒有投入使用，對吧，因為這是單元化的觸發因素，並真正嘗試消除瓶頸，並將其作為我們的資本支出計劃的一部分，因為這些工作已經因為某種原因在那裡執行，並確保我們利用這一點，而不是重新利用這一點，而不是重新利用這一點。

So one of the things that we did was in line with that. And there was also an accrual for people to incentivize that, like I mentioned, on the adjusted numbers for the quarter. And we believe that we were successful there. One of the most important things is for us to keep the discipline here as we grow the CapEx. Naturally, some of the works that we're going to do are going to be more long term in terms of length with regards to construction cycles. As we expand, for example, wastewater treatment station, it's a longer tenure work than, for example, putting a new connection, for example.

因此，我們所做的事情之一就是符合這一點。而且，正如我所提到的，在本季的調整後數字中，也為人們提供了激勵措施。我們相信我們在這方面取得了成功。對我們來說，最重要的事情之一是在增加資本支出的同時保持紀律。當然，就施工週期而言，我們要進行的一些工程將會更加長期。例如，當我們擴建污水處理站時，這比建立新的連接要花費更長的時間。

So our job is really to try to make sure that we maintain this as current as possible. We need to make sure that we're following what we have in terms of interest on capital throughout the construction period from the regulation, and we're not exceeding that. So that's the way that we've been approaching that.

因此，我們的工作實際上是盡力確保盡可能保持最新狀態。我們需要確保在整個建設期間，資本利息都遵循法規的規定，並且不超過該規定。這就是我們處理這個問題的方法。

Okay. Some other questions that are coming up. One question now from Guilherme Lima from Santander. What are your thoughts on the Para Sanitation auction? It would make more sense to expect you not to participate as it is outside of Sao Paulo State.

好的。接下來是一些其他問題。現在來自桑坦德銀行的 Guilherme Lima 有一個問題。您對 Para Sanitation 拍賣有何看法？由於它位於聖保羅州之外，因此期望您不參加是更有意義的。

I think we're early days at SABESP. We're a little bit over five months. So would that be ideal? Probably not for any opportunity, right, inorganic opportunity, easier, smaller in our home turf, the state of Sao Paulo, harder and more challenging concessions that are more complex and not as similar to what we have.

我認為 SABESP 還處於早期階段。我們已經五個多月了。那麼這是理想的嗎？可能沒有任何機會，對吧，無機機會，在我們的主場，聖保羅州，更容易，更小，更難，更具挑戰性的讓步，這些讓步更為複雜，而且與我們擁有的並不相似。

What I can tell you is that we're going to -- we look at everything as this is also -- these processes helps us learn more about the industry. But I would say that from a relative perspective, taking the previous question of Universaliza, I think it's easier to look at Universaliza than Para, right?

我可以告訴你的是，我們將會——我們會審視一切——這些流程有助於我們更多地了解這個行業。但我想說，從相對的角度來看，針對前面關於 Universaliza 的問題，我認為研究 Universaliza 比研究 Para 更容易，對嗎？

And regarding any partnership with Equatorial, what I could tell you is Equatorial has a comparative and competitive advantage, both of them because it has a concession in the state and knows the region pretty well. If SABESP decides to go through, I don't see a reason if Equatorial didn't want to go as well. But I would say that this is early days. There's nothing currently that's saying that we're going to do this. We're focusing on the transformation, looking at every process that is on the market, but no decision has been made yet, okay?

關於與 Equatorial 的任何合作，我可以告訴你的是，Equatorial 具有比較優勢和競爭優勢，因為它在該州擁有特許經營權，並且非常了解該地區。如果 SABESP 決定通過，我看不出 Equatorial 號碼有什麼理由不想通過。但我想說，現在還太早。目前還沒有任何跡象表明我們會這麼做。我們正專注於轉型，研究市場上的每個流程，但尚未做出決定，好嗎？

So I would say less likely, but it's a risk-reward relationship at the moment, nothing concrete to comment.

因此我認為可能性較小，但目前這是一個風險與回報的關係，沒有什麼具體可評論的。

Okay. We have -- going back a little bit to the topic of the big discounts. I have another question here from Joao Pimentel as a follow-up. In the same question, tariff discount. Considering the current term of each contract and assuming you are able to remove the discounts, when could we see the full impact on our P&L?

好的。我們—稍微回顧一下大折扣的話題。我這裡還有另一個來自 Joao Pimentel 的後續問題。同一個問題，關稅折扣。考慮到每份合約的當前期限並假設您能夠取消折扣，我們何時才能看到對我們的損益表的全部影響？

I think the full impact on the P&L probably would be on the second half of the year. Every cycle, every discussion, every metering cycle would be done. Probably, if we -- on average, we have some customers that had a 60-day termination clause, but others had longer and so forth. So it's not linear, just one size fits all. I think this will be concluded probably by the second, quarter and the full impact would be on the third quarter where everything happened, okay?

我認為對損益表的全面影響可能要到今年下半年才會顯現。每個週期、每個討論、每個計量週期都會完成。可能吧，如果我們——平均而言，我們的一些客戶有 60 天的終止條款，但其他客戶有更長的終止條款，等等。所以它不是線性的，而是適合所有情況的尺寸。我認為這可能會在第二季度得出結論，而全面影響將發生在發生一切的第三季度，好嗎？

So it's the latter. It's going like this. And probably, we're going to end the second half with the full impact with the -- not annualization, but the full quarter and the third quarter. That's it.

所以是後者。事情是這樣的。而且很可能，我們將以全面的影響來結束下半年——不是年度化，而是整個季度和第三季。就是這樣。

Okay. Getting a little -- some more questions here. Ilan Arbetman from Ativa Investimentos. Can you give a little bit more color in the rise year over year in ECLD?

好的。還有一些——這裡還有一些問題。Ativa Investimentos 的 Ilan Arbetman。您能否更詳細地介紹 ECLD 的逐年成長情況？

Thank you, Ilan, and thank you, Thiago. Look, Ilan, I think it's less about 2024 specifically. It's more about 2023, where the company had major agreements with large customers and whereby the company was able to recover important amounts. But I would take the advantage of your topic. I think this is one of the regulatory gaps that we have as a company, whereby we are looking at many different solutions here and changing how we see collections. We have a [stretcher] targets in our 2025 plan for collections, which should implicitly reduce that.

謝謝你，伊蘭，謝謝你，蒂亞戈。聽著，伊蘭，我認為這與 2024 年關係不大。這更與 2023 年有關，這一年公司與大客戶簽訂了重要協議，因此公司能夠收回重要金額。但我會利用你的主題。我認為這是我們公司存在的監管漏洞之一，因此我們正在尋找許多不同的解決方案並改變我們看待收款的方式。我們在 2025 年的收藏計畫中設立了嚴格的目標，這應該會減少這個數字。

But even more than that, we're looking at different ways of payments, right? So a company barely use credit card that automatically offloads the risk of the balance sheet of a recurrence in delinquency, we are increasing the budgets for cuts in water for delinquent accounts. This is actually growing by more than 2x, for example. So we're looking at many -- at all the levers that we have to pull. We're actually -- at this moment, we're working out as a big [serum] renegotiations, a big campaign of renegotiations.

但更重要的是，我們正在尋找不同的付款方式，對嗎？因此，如果一家公司幾乎不使用信用卡，那麼它就會自動卸下拖欠債務再次發生的風險，而我們正在增加拖欠債務帳戶的水費預算。例如，實際上增長了 2 倍以上。因此，我們正在考慮許多——所有我們必須採取的措施。實際上——目前，我們正在進行一場大規模的[血清]重新談判，一場大規模的重新談判活動。

So all in all, I think we have a lot of opportunities here. Denis, which is our new Head of Customers and Technology, comes from this revenue assurance industry. So we're cooking up a lot of good things on that front.

總而言之，我認為我們這裡有很多機會。丹尼斯是我們新客戶和技術主管，他就來自收入保證行業。因此，我們在這方面正在籌備很多好事。

Just one -- I think one last question that we have here from [Gabriel Moseca]. Does the company have an ongoing severance plan? And what is the target?

我想我們還有最後一個問題[加布里埃爾·莫塞卡]。公司是否有持續的遣散計畫？目標是什麼？

I don't understand -- the severance plan is an open termination plan, and the plan that we had in place, we opened and closed. So basically, that's it. We may open new termination plans moving forward. Differently from the last one before ours, it was open for a year. So this one was a very short run.

我不明白——遣散計劃是一個開放的終止計劃，我們制定的計劃是開放和關閉的。基本上就是這樣。我們可能會在未來推出新的終止計劃。與我們之前的上一個不同的是，它開放了一年。所以這次的運行非常短暫。

This was basically a 30 days program. We may use this lever again, but there's no open termination plan open as we speak. So no major expectations on personnel reduction as per now in different conditions. If they exist, they would follow the rules that we have in place. There is a price. There's additional severance to be paid until the end of January 2026. And that would be the case, we would need to pay that extra severance to what's legally -- do to any employee that we lay off.

這基本上是一個為期 30 天的計劃。我們可能會再次使用這個槓桿，但目前還沒有公開的終止計劃。因此，就目前不同情況而言，對裁員並沒有太大的預期。如果它們存在，它們就會遵守我們制定的規則。這是有代價的。額外的遣散費需支付至2026年1月底。如果是這樣，我們就需要向任何被解僱的員工支付合法的額外遣散費。

Okay. We have another question coming from an investor. How should we think about the mix of consumers as you expand penetration of service towards universalization? Are these areas materially over indexed to consumers who fall on the low tariff rates?

好的。我們還有另一個來自投資者的問題。在擴大服務滲透率、邁向普遍化的過程中，我們該如何思考消費者的組合？這些地區對享受低關稅稅率的消費者而言是否具有實質的過度指數化？

Thank you. I'll take this one. Thank you, [Fraser], for the question, a very important one. When we think about our mix, right, and what happened in '24 and we would see probably going forward, right? When we look at '24, we had a BRL200 million impact from mix in the top line. Most of that impact came from the new rule for vulnerable social tariffs. But a part of that impact came also from that expansion that you just mentioned.

謝謝。我要這個。謝謝您（弗雷澤）提出這個問題，這是一個非常重要的問題。當我們考慮我們的組合時，對吧，以及24年發生的事情，我們可能會看到未來的發展，對吧？當我們回顧 24 年度時，我們發現混合收入對我們產生了 2 億雷亞爾的影響。大部分影響來自於脆弱社會關稅的新規定。但部分影響也來自您剛才提到的擴張。

I think this is where the FAUSP, which is the fund for the universalization to amortize the impact of the universalization, comes into play to help that also in having more consumers in the social mix. And as we go through tariff cycles, we should see that rebalance throughout the market mix, right? And that's where FAUSP becomes into play to avoid that from having a -- to amortize that impact to be very big with the consumers.

我認為這就是 FAUSP 發揮作用的地方，FAUSP 是一個普及基金，用於攤銷普及的影響，也有助於在社會結構中擁有更多的消費者。隨著我們經歷關稅週期，我們應該看到整個市場組合的重新平衡，對嗎？這就是 FAUSP 發揮作用的地方，以避免對消費者產生過大的影響。

But as we grow naturally thinking about what we still have to cover, especially in the metropolitan regions, we should see an increase in the most social and vulnerable mode of tariff.

但是，隨著我們自然地成長，思考我們仍然需要涵蓋什麼，特別是在大都市地區，我們應該看到最具社會性和最脆弱的關稅模式增加。

Thank you. The Q&A session is now over. We wish to give the floor to Mr. Carlos Piani for the company's closing remarks.

謝謝。問答環節現已結束。我們想請卡洛斯·皮亞尼先生作公司的閉幕詞。

Thank you. So again, thank you all for joining our call. I think these are still early days of our tenure here at SABESP, a long-term road ahead of us. I know that's challenging to do a big transformation being a publicly listed company. So be patient with us, but we're very excited with the outlook.

謝謝。再次感謝大家參加我們的電話會議。我認為我們在 SABESP 任職才剛開始，未來還有很長的路要走。我知道，作為一家上市公司，實現重大轉型是極具挑戰性的。所以請您耐心等待，我們對前景感到非常興奮。

Maybe we're going to have some non-recurring events because we're going to try to clean as much as we can of everything, everything that we find. But we're very excited with the opportunity. I think the team is excited. I think a lot of opportunities ahead of us. So we're all committed with the long term of the company.

也許我們會遇到一些非經常性事件，因為我們要盡力清理我們發現的所有東西。但我們對這個機會感到非常興奮。我認為球隊很興奮。我認為我們面前有很多機會。所以我們都致力於公司的長遠發展。

And I hope to see you all on the next quarter results in May. Okay. Thank you all. Have a nice day. Bye bye.

我希望能在五月看到大家下一季的業績。好的。謝謝大家。祝你今天過得愉快。再見。

SABESP earnings presentation is now closed. Thank you very much for your participation, and we wish you all a very good day.

SABESP 收益報告現已結束。非常感謝您的參與，我們祝福大家有個愉快的一天。