Rithm Capital Corp (RITM) 2024 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Good day, and welcome to the Rithm Capital fourth quarter and full year 2024 earnings call. (Operator Instructions) Please note this event is being recorded. I would now like to turn the conference over to Emma Bolla, Associate General Counsel. Please go ahead.

大家好，歡迎參加 Rithm Capital 2024 年第四季和全年財報電話會議。（操作員指示）請注意，此事件正在被記錄。現在，我想將會議交給副總法律顧問 Emma Bolla。請繼續。

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. I would like to thank you for joining us today for Rithm Capital's fourth quarter and full year '24 earnings call. Joining me today are Michael Nierenberg, Chairman, CEO, and President of Rithm Capital; Nick Santoro, Chief Financial Officer of Rithm Capital; and Baron Silverstein, President of Newrez.

謝謝大家，早安。感謝您今天參加 Rithm Capital 第四季和 24 年全年財報電話會議。今天與我一起出席的還有 Rithm Capital 董事長、執行長兼總裁 Michael Nierenberg； Rithm Capital 財務長 Nick Santoro；以及 Newrez 總裁 Baron Silverstein。

Throughout the call, we are going to reference the earnings supplement that was posted this morning to the Rithm Capital website, www.rithmcap.com. If you've not already done so, I'd encourage you to download the presentation now. I would like to point out that certain statements made today will be forward-looking statements.

在整個通話過程中，我們將參考今天早上在 Rithm Capital 網站 www.rithmcap.com 上發布的收益補充資料。如果您還沒有這樣做，我建議您立即下載該簡報。我想指出的是，今天發表的某些聲明將是前瞻性的聲明。

These statements, by their nature, are uncertain and may differ materially from actual results. I encourage you to review the disclaimers in our press release and earnings supplement regarding forward-looking statements and to review the risk factors contained in our annual and quarterly reports filed with the SEC.

這些陳述本質上是不確定的，可能與實際結果有重大差異。我鼓勵您查看我們的新聞稿和收益補充中有關前瞻性陳述的免責聲明，並查看我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的年度和季度報告中包含的風險因素。

In addition, we will be discussing some non-GAAP financial measures during today's call. Reconciliations of these measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures can be found in our earnings supplement. And with that, I will turn the call over to Michael.

此外，我們將在今天的電話會議上討論一些非公認會計準則財務指標。在我們的收益補充中可以找到這些指標與最直接可比較的 GAAP 指標的對帳表。說完這些，我會把電話轉給麥可。

Thanks, Emma. Good morning, everyone. I want to welcome you to our fourth quarter and full year call for Rithm. The company had a great fourth quarter and a great year. What I thought I would do today, which is a little bit different than our typical earnings call, I figured I would take a step back and talk about the Rithm story for a minute.

謝謝，艾瑪。大家早安。歡迎您參加 Rithm 第四季和全年電話會議。該公司第四季表現優異，今年也表現優異。我今天想做的事情與我們通常的財報電話會議有些不同，我想我會退一步並花一點時間談論 Rithm 的故事。

When you look at Rithm, you may ask who are we? We began the company in 2013, while at Fortress to acquire MSRs from banks as Basel III capital rules made them too costly for banks to hold. The company, which started with $1 billion of capital, today has grown to $7.8 billion of permanent capital. Along the way, we grew our asset management business, we began building and acquiring operating companies.

當你看到 Rithm 時，你可能會問我們是誰？我們在 2013 年創立了這家公司，當時我們在 Fortress 工作，從銀行收購 MSR，因為巴塞爾協議 III 的資本規則使得銀行持有 MSR 的成本過高。該公司最初以 10 億美元的資本起步，如今已發展到擁有 78 億美元的永久資本。在此過程中，我們發展了資產管理業務，並開始建立和收購營運公司。

In 2022, the Board acquired the management contract of New Residential from Fortress, and then we began the next leg of our journey, which was to continue building a world-class asset management firm. Our thought was to go out and raise third-party capital. So if you think about it, while at Fortress, all the capital and all the growth of the company was done in the public markets, so to not confuse that story, we built it in the public markets.

2022年，董事會從Fortress手中收購了New Residential的管理合同，從此我們開始了下一段旅程，繼續打造世界一流的資產管理公司。我們的想法是出去籌集第三方資本。所以如果你想想，在 Fortress 時，公司的所有資本和所有成長都是在公開市場上完成的，所以為了不混淆這個故事，我們在公開市場上建立了它。

As we looked at the next leg of our lives, we said, let's go raise private capital. So in August of '22, we changed our name to Rithm Capital.

當我們展望人生的下一段旅程時，我們說，讓我們去籌集私人資本。因此在 22 年 8 月，我們將名字改為 Rithm Capital。

While we still operate as a REIT, we continue to evaluate the benefits of changing our capital structure. There are still some things to do in order for us to get there. Today, when I look at the firm and we look at the firm, we have what I believe is a complete product offering for shareholders and LPs in all asset classes, ranging from real estate to credit, including the new hot word in the private capital sector of ABF, which is asset-based finance, something that we've been doing our whole careers.

雖然我們仍以房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 的形式運營，但我們仍會繼續評估改變資本結構的好處。為了達到這個目標我們還有很多事情要做。今天，當我審視這家公司以及我們審視這家公司時，我相信我們為股東和 LP 提供了完整的產品，涵蓋所有資產類別，從房地產到信貸，包括 ABF 私募資本領域的最新熱詞，即資產融資，這是我們整個職業生涯都在做的事情。

Another exciting thing is we expect to announce soon, probably in the next 30 days, a global energy infrastructure platform with Scale Capital Partners, which will be supplying power to data centers across the world.

另一件令人興奮的事情是，我們預計很快（可能在未來 30 天內）宣布與 Scale Capital Partners 合作成立的全球能源基礎設施平台，將為世界各地的資料中心供電。

When I think about our business, I like to think about why us? One, results, we must have performed to grow our business. Two, we're very different than other asset managers. We have the ability to manufacture assets through our operating businesses. We underwrite, originate, and service the assets from beginning to end.

當我考慮我們的業務時，我喜歡思考為什麼是我們？第一，我們必須取得成果才能發展我們的業務。二，我們與其他資產管理公司有很大不同。我們有能力透過營運業務製造資產。我們從頭到尾承保、發起並提供資產服務。

Servicing matters. We've been in a very benign credit cycle for many, many years. And at some point, that will turn and having the third largest mortgage company or service here in the United States. It's going to make a big difference for our business.

服務事宜。多年來，我們一直處於非常良性的信貸週期中。最終，我們將成為美國第三大抵押貸款公司或服務公司。這將為我們的業務帶來巨大的影響。

Our asset management business, many of you know we acquired Sculptor in November of 2023. We've been together for one year, and the business is doing great. The results are great, and we look forward to future growth there as well.

我們的資產管理業務，很多人都知道我們在 2023 年 11 月收購了 Sculptor。我們在一起已經一年了，生意非常好。結果非常棒，我們也期待未來的發展。

So our value prop is the following, results first again. When you look at the family of all of our companies on the investment side between Rithm, Sculptor, and some of our other investment areas, we have over 400 individuals.

因此，我們的價值主張如下：結果仍然是第一位的。當您查看我們在投資方面的所有公司，包括 Rithm、Sculptor 以及我們其他一些投資領域時，我們會發現我們有超過 400 名員工。

Our operating business lines have approximately 7,000 people. Number two, when I look at our equity, when looking at the sum of the parts, we're severely undervalued. And I know as we continue to -- as we trade as a REIT like others that trade a REIT, either trade a book or slightly above book or below book, I think that the sector is extremely undervalued relative to when you see other asset managers trading at 30 times DE. Our manufacturing engine for assets differentiates us from others. We can differentiate our product offerings. We can create whatever product offering whenever LPs would like.

我們的營運業務線擁有約 7,000 名員工。第二，當我看著我們的股權，看各部分的總和時，我發現我們被嚴重低估了。而且我知道，隨著我們繼續 — — 隨著我們像其他交易 REIT 的公司一樣進行 REIT 交易，無論是按賬面價值交易、略高於賬面價值交易還是低於賬面價值交易，我認為相對於其他資產管理公司以 30 倍 DE 進行交易而言，該行業被嚴重低估了。我們的資產製造引擎使我們有別於其他公司。我們可以使自己的產品具有差異化。只要 LP 需要，我們就可以創造任何產品。

So I'll now refer to our supplement, which has been posted online. I'm going to start with page 3. I'll go through most of the slides. Baron will hit the mortgage company, and then we'll go to Q&A. So when you look at the company today, between Rithm and Sculptor, assets really being managed, Rithm has a $45 billion balance sheet.

因此我現在將參考我們已在線發布的補充資料。我將從第 3 頁開始。我將瀏覽大部分幻燈片。巴倫將打擊抵押貸款公司，然後我們進入問答環節。因此，當您查看今天的公司時，Rithm 和 Sculptor 之間實際管理的資產負債表為 450 億美元。

Sculptor has about $35 billion of AUM. The combined entity is about $80 billion of AUM, $7.8 billion of permanent capital, and the company makes a little north of $1 billion a year. When you look at growth, 76% earnings growth since the first quarter of 2021.

Sculptor 的資產管理規模約為 350 億美元。合併後的實體的資產管理規模約為 800 億美元，永久資本為 78 億美元，公司每年的獲利能力略高於 10 億美元。從成長來看，自 2021 年第一季以來，獲利成長了 76%。

To the right side of the page, you can have a look. Newrez, our mortgage company, obviously, scope to the asset management business in the private markets; Genesis Capital, one of the largest non-bank construction/RTL lenders in the business.

在頁面的右側，您可以查看一下。我們的抵押貸款公司 Newrez 顯然涉足私人市場的資產管理業務； Genesis Capital 是業內最大的非銀行建築/RTL 貸款機構之一。

Last year in June we took over the management contract of something called Great Ajax. It was kind of a broken REIT, we renamed it Rithm Property Trust with the intent of growing that into, quite frankly, like a Rithm, like what others have done in the public markets around externally managed vehicles. And then we have a small set of our business in the door.

去年六月，我們接手了 Great Ajax 的管理合約。它是一種失敗的房地產投資信託基金 (REIT)，我們將其重新命名為 Rithm Property Trust，目的是將其發展成為像 Rithm 這樣的公司，就像其他人在公開市場上圍繞外部管理工具所做的那樣。然後我們在門口安排了一些小生意。

Financial highlights, page 4, year-over-year growth in earnings 27%, earnings available for distribution $2.10. As I look at Q4, GAAP net income, $263 million or $0.50 per diluted share; return on equity 16%; earnings available for distribution $316 million or $0.60 per diluted share; return on equity, 20%.

財務摘要，第 4 頁，收益年增 27%，可供分配收益 2.10 美元。我看一下第四季度，GAAP 淨收入為 2.63 億美元，即每股攤薄收入 0.50 美元；股本回報率16%；可供分配收益 3.16 億美元，或每股攤薄收益 0.60 美元；股本回報率，20%。

When you look at our dividend, it's still 9.2%, and we still paid $0.25 in per common share. Book value, we ended the year at $12.56, which I think is pretty much unchanged versus the prior year. And today, our book value is in around the same.

當你看到我們的股息時，它仍然是 9.2%，而且我們仍然支付每股 0.25 美元。截至年底，帳面價值為 12.56 美元，我認為與前一年相比基本沒有變化。如今，我們的帳面價值大致相同。

For fiscal year '24, full year GAAP net income, $835 million or $1.67 per diluted share, 14% return on equity, that includes marks and other things; earnings available for distribution [$1,050 million, $2.10 per diluted share, and a 17% return on equity. And then again, the dividend yield of 9.2%, we paid $1 a year].

24 財年全年 GAAP 淨收入 8.35 億美元或每股稀釋收益 1.67 美元，股本回報率 14%，其中包括利潤和其他項目；可供分配獲利[10.5 億美元，每股攤薄收益 2.10 美元，股本回報率 17%。再說了，股息殖利率為 9.2%，我們每年支付 1 美元。

Page 5, year-end review. Genesis Capital, we acquired this company from Goldman's Merchant Bank in I believe it was December of 2021. At that time, they were doing about $2 billion in origination. This year, we did $3.6 billion.

第五頁，年終回顧。Genesis Capital，我們從高盛商業銀行收購了這家公司，我記得是在 2021 年 12 月。當時，他們的資金總額約為 20 億美元。今年我們的營收達到了 36 億美元。

When we acquired the company, the EBITDA number was about $40 million. Today, it's due in about -- in and around $100 million of EBITDA. So it's been a great success story. Obviously, with banks and regional banks pulling back in certain areas, this company is poised for success, and it's also poised for a lot of growth.

當我們收購該公司時，其 EBITDA 約為 4,000 萬美元。今天，它的 EBITDA 約為 1 億美元。這是一個偉大的成功故事。顯然，隨著銀行和地區銀行在某些領域的撤退，該公司有望獲得成功，也有望大幅成長。

The asset management side, as I pointed out, we're one year in with Sculptor. That's our asset management arm, returns have been super. I mean if you look at the multi-strat fund, last year, 18% growth or 13.5% net.

正如我指出的那樣，在資產管理方面，我們與 Sculptor 合作已經一年了。這是我們的資產管理部門，報酬率非常高。我的意思是，如果你看看多層次基金，去年的成長率為 18%，淨成長率為 13.5%。

And if you look at some of the other businesses around the real estate side, and I'll get into that when we look at some of the Sculptor slides, there's great performance, and it echoes my opening remarks that the only thing we care about is performance first.

如果你看一下房地產方面的一些其他業務，當我們看一些 Sculptor 幻燈片時，我會深入討論這個問題，你會發現它們的表現非常出色，這與我的開場白相呼應，我們唯一關心的是性能。

Performance first is going to lead to more AUM growth. It's not the other way around for us. When I look at the investment portfolio, we did seven securitizations in '24, a little under $3 billion. We invested $1.8 billion in residential mortgage assets.

業績優先將會帶來更多的AUM成長。對我們來說，情況並非如此。當我查看投資組合時，我們發現我們在24年進行了七次證券化，總額略低於30億美元。我們在住宅抵押貸款資產上投資了 18 億美元。

And one of the interesting deals we did, and this is very popular with a lot of LPs, we invested $200 million of equity in a large SRT transaction with a large bank where effectively we took a slice of a mortgage warehouse.

我們進行的一項有趣的交易非常受許多 LP 的歡迎，我們在與一家大型銀行進行的一項大型 SRT 交易中投資了 2 億美元的股權，實際上我們獲得了一家抵押倉庫的一部分。

Why us? Because we have the operational capacity in the event that there was something that when arrive with one of their underwriting mortgage bankers. And the Newrez, again, very proud of this company, proud of the team. Baron has done a great job, as has his leadership team.

為什麼是我們？因為一旦他們的一位承銷抵押貸款銀行家出現問題，我們就有應對的能力。Newrez 再次對這家公司、這個團隊感到非常自豪。巴倫和他的領導團隊表現出色。

Top three US mortgage servicer in total, top five US mortgage originator in total, and keep in mind, when we were at Fortress, we built Mr. Cooper, which was formally known as Nationstar. We started this company from scratch in 2018, so very, very proud of the team and the results that we have there. And that company is just poised to grow, and I think a lot of -- and Baron will talk to that in a little bit.

美國抵押貸款服務商排名前三，美國抵押貸款發起人排名前五，記住，當我們在 Fortress 時，我們創建了 Mr. Cooper，其正式名稱為 Nationstar。我們於 2018 年白手起家創立了這家公司，我們對我們的團隊和所取得的成果感到非常自豪。該公司正準備成長，我認為很多——巴倫稍後會談到這一點。

When I look at our foundation for growth, we're going to continue to try to grow our third-party asset management business. We want to shrink our balance sheet. We want to do things more again, off-balance sheet. If you look to the right side of the page here, Rithm Property Trust, I pointed out, that was an opportunistic situation.

當我審視我們的成長基礎時，我們將繼續努力發展我們的第三方資產管理業務。我們希望縮減我們的資產負債表。我們希望再次做更多表外的事情。如果你看一下這個頁面的右側，Rithm Property Trust，我指出，這是一個機會主義的情況。

Effectively, we just took over the management contract. The team has done a great job on that. We took it over in June. It was losing money. We actually got it to at the end of Q4, where the company is flat to now making money, and that should continue to grow.

實際上，我們只是接管了管理合約。該團隊在這方面做得非常出色。我們在六月接管了它。它正在虧損。實際上，在第四季度末，公司的獲利情況持平，應該會繼續成長。

This is for Rithm shareholders, that is an external managed vehicle. So management fees as we grow that will feed to the bottom line. Asset-based finance, a hot topic, everywhere, every asset manager everywhere is talking about that, so-called $30 trillion opportunity. We've been doing this in our whole lives.

這是針對 Rithm 股東的，這是一種外部管理工具。因此，隨著我們的發展，管理費將增加到底線利潤。資產融資是一個熱門話題，各地的資產管理者都在談論這個所謂的 30 兆美元的機會。我們一生都在這樣做。

Energy transition, I pointed out, we're going to be partnering and launching a global energy infrastructure fund. What's going to happen there is we're going to partner with a couple of our old Fortress colleagues, bringing third-party capital.

我指出，能源轉型，我們將合作並啟動一個全球能源基礎設施基金。我們將與 Fortress 的幾位老同事合作，引入第三方資本。

There was a huge shortage, obviously of power. We're not going to get in on the Q&A. We don't need to get into the DeepSeek stuff, but what I would say is a world-class team, we won't enter a vertical unless we have the expertise, and we're super pumped for that because the need for power around the globe is massive and the amount of capital needed to fund all this power, whether you're building power plants or you're funding some of these hyperscalers is going to be immense, so we're really excited about that.

顯然，電力短缺現象十分嚴重。我們不會參與問答環節。我們不需要深入研究 DeepSeek，但我想說，我們是一支世界級的團隊，如果沒有專業知識，我們不會進入垂直領域，我們對此非常興奮，因為全球對電力的需求是巨大的，而資助所有這些電力所需的資金，無論是建設發電廠還是資助一些超大規模企業，都將是巨大的，所以我們對此感到非常興奮。

So that's page 6. Some of the parts -- I'm not going to spend a ton of time here. Bottom line is, I think our equity is extremely cheap. I look at asset managers where they trade. If you think about it, we make $1 billion, [we trade at 6 in changed times].

這是第 6 頁。對於某些部分——我不會在這裡花費太多時間。總而言之，我認為我們的股權極為便宜。我關注資產經理的交易地點。如果你仔細想想，我們賺了 10 億美元，（在變化的時代，我們的交易價格為 6 美元）。

We have asset management, we have operating businesses. The company is extremely undervalued. I think at some point -- and I thought about this coming into the beginning of the year, the market should be looking at some of the REITs and the real earnings potential around not only us, but just others and what people are doing in that sector. If you think about something at 30 times or something, [that's steady billion dollars at 6 times]. I know where I would think about it.

我們有資產管理，我們有營運業務。該公司的估值被嚴重低估。我認為在某個時候——我想到今年年初的時候，市場應該關註一些房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 及其周圍的實際盈利潛力，不僅僅是我們，還有其他人，以及人們在該領域的所作所為。如果你思考某件事 30 次左右，[這是穩定的 6 倍十億美元]。我知道我會在哪裡考慮它。

Capital deployment on page 6, this just shows going back to '21, how we've grown our earnings we've grown it strategically. We have focused on sectors that we believe are going to generate mid-teens or teens returns.

第 6 頁的資本部署，這只是顯示了回顧 21 世紀，我們的獲利是如何成長的，我們的獲利是如何策略性地成長的。我們重點關注那些我們認為將產生十五六成以上回報的行業。

So when you have a look, earnings growth, again, up 76% since '21 and our EAD from a CAGR standpoint is up 16%, so again, very proud of that. Just a couple of quick points here on Genesis. I mentioned before, we bought the company in '21, another great team, the team here at Rithm worked very closely with them.

因此，當您查看時，獲利成長率自 21 年以來再次上漲了 76%，而從複合年增長率的角度來看，我們的 EAD 上漲了 16%，因此，我們對此感到非常自豪。這裡只想簡單談談關於 Genesis 的幾點。我之前提到過，我們在 21 年收購了這家公司，另一支優秀的團隊，Rithm 的團隊與他們密切合作。

I expect this business to -- we got to be sensitive to credit, obviously, because as I pointed out in my opening remarks, we've been in a very benign credit environment for many years. While saying that, this $3.6 billion with $100 million of EBITDA, I expect that to continue to grow, the asset class itself is very much in vogue. It's a mid-teens type return and we're seeing a lot of demand from LPs for that type of product, a lot of different sponsors.

我預計這項業務——顯然我們必須對信貸保持敏感，因為正如我在開場白中指出的那樣，多年來我們一直處於非常良好的信貸環境中。話雖如此，我預計這 36 億美元中 1 億美元的 EBITDA 還會繼續成長，因為這個資產類別本身就非常受歡迎。這是一種十幾歲的中期回報，我們看到 LP 對這種類型產品的需求很大，還有很多不同的贊助商。

And I think the upside there when you look at, unfortunately, some of the disasters happening, whether it be on the West Coast and other places, we're poised to make loans in those areas. On the -- I'm going to flip to the Sculptor slide, page 13. Obviously, when we bought Sculptor and we closed in November, I think it was the November 19 in 2023. So truly one full year in, returns have been great.

我認為，當你看到不幸發生的一些災難時，無論是在西海岸還是其他地方，我們都準備向這些地區發放貸款，這是好的一面。在--我要翻到雕塑家投影片的第 13 頁。顯然，當我們收購 Sculptor 並在 11 月完成交易時，我認為那是 2023 年 11 月 19 日。確實，整整一年以來，回報非常豐厚。

Fundraising is going extremely well. When I look at -- or we all collectively look at the teams, world-class real estate business, world-class multi-strat business.

籌款工作進展十分順利。當我看著——或者我們大家一起看著團隊、世界級的房地產業務、世界級的多策略業務。

Credit, we're looking -- we're going to look to continue to try to grow that business over time. We restarted the CLO platform last year, and we've also accelerated some growth in a scope to non-traded REIT. The other thing what I would say around Rithm and Sculptor, Rithm is a true partner to Sculptor.

信用，我們正在尋求—我們將隨著時間的推移繼續嘗試發展這項業務。我們去年重新啟動了 CLO 平台，並且我們也加速了非交易 REIT 範圍內的一些成長。關於 Rithm 和 Sculptor 我想說的另一件事是，Rithm 是 Sculptor 的真正夥伴。

So when we look at things that Sculptor can do, whether it be launching a fund or something, it's very likely that the support from Rithm will enable us to participate not only in that fund, but help grow those funds over time.

因此，當我們考慮 Sculptor 可以做的事情時，無論是啟動基金還是其他什麼，Rithm 的支持很可能使我們不僅能夠參與該基金，而且可以幫助這些基金隨著時間的推移而增長。

Page 14, just the performance. Again, if you look at the Sculptor tactical credit fund, for example, 25% gross, almost 20% net, fantastic. You look at the multi-strat I pointed out earlier, 18% gross, 13.5% net. And then when you look at the real estate business, again, these guys are guys and gals in world-class business, second to none.

第 14 頁，僅表演。再者，如果你看一下雕塑家戰術信貸基金，例如，毛利率為 25%，淨利率接近 20%，太棒了。你看我之前指出的多策略，毛利 18%，淨利 13.5%。然後當您再看看房地產業時，您會發現，這些人都是世界級的商業精英，無人能及。

When they go out with funds, I think we'd expect those to be oversubscribed. Finally, I'll talk to Rithm Property Trust, and then I'll turn it over to Baron. Again, this is the so-called broken REIT we took over in June.

當他們發行基金時，我想我們預計這些基金將獲得超額認購。最後，我會與 Rithm Property Trust 進行交談，然後將其交給 Baron。再說一遍，這就是我們六月接管的所謂破產房地產投資信託基金 (REIT)。

Right now, it's got about $250 million of equity in it. There is a management fee and a promote. So as we continue to grow that and take advantage of dislocations in the commercial real estate market, it's our expectations that this vehicle could grow into a multibillion-dollar vehicle. With that, I'm going to turn it over to Baron, who will talk about Newrez.

目前，該公司擁有約 2.5 億美元的股權。有管理費和促銷費。因此，隨著我們繼續發展這項業務並利用商業房地產市場的錯位，我們預計這項業務將發展成為價值數十億美元的業務。說完這些，我將把話題交給 Baron，他將談論 Newrez。

Thank you, Michael, and good morning to everybody. So I'm turning to slide 20. And Newrez delivered another strong quarter with fourth quarter pretax income excluding mark-to-market of approximately $280 million, which is an increase of 12% quarter over quarter and delivering a 20% ROE.

謝謝你，邁克爾，大家早安。現在我翻到第 20 張投影片。Newrez 又一個季度表現強勁，第四季度稅前收入（不包括市價）約為 2.8 億美元，環比增長 12%，股本回報率 (ROE) 為 20%。

We also finished the full year of 2024 with approximately $1 billion in pretax income, and that's up 26% year over year with a 19% ROE. These results, though, reflect the change in segment reporting by including MSRs that were previously reported as serviced by others and the MSR hedge that were reported in the investment portfolio segment.

我們也以約 10 億美元的稅前收入結束了 2024 年全年，年增 26%，ROE 為 19%。不過，這些結果反映了分部報告的變化，包括了先前報告為由他人提供服務的 MSR 和投資組合分部中報告的 MSR 對沖。

And we believe this change more accurately reflects the economics of Rithm's origination and servicing segment, which is Newrez overall and more closely resembles industry norms across our sector.

我們相信，這項變更更準確地反映了 Rithm 發起和服務部門的經濟狀況，這與 Newrez 整體情況更為接近，也更接近我們整個產業的產業規範。

And overall, we continue to gain momentum, and these results show the power of our platform. We have $844 billion in total servicing, now the number three servicer, and $59 billion in funded volume for 2024, with the number five originator.

總體而言，我們繼續獲得發展勢頭，這些結果證明了我們平台的強大力量。我們的服務總額為 8,440 億美元，目前是第三大服務商，2024 年的融資額為 590 億美元，是第五大發起人。

Turning to slide 21. You can also see that we remain in growth mode. The last few years really present the effectiveness of our well-balanced platform by taking advantage of origination opportunities and servicing opportunities regardless to market conditions.

翻到第 21 張投影片。您還可以看到我們仍處於成長模式。過去幾年，無論市場狀況如何，我們透過利用發起機會和服務機會真正體現了我們均衡平台的有效性。

Our 2025 strategy is no different. We don't chase market share, nor that we have a hope that rates will come down. We remain focused on growing our brand presence and delivering best-in-class customer experience in order to maximize customer retention and recapture.

我們的 2025 策略也不例外。我們並不追求市場份額，也不指望利率下降。我們始終專注於擴大我們的品牌影響力並提供一流的客戶體驗，以最大限度地保留和重新吸引客戶。

Growing our B2B platforms is also focused on building new partnerships, increasing wallet share with our existing customer base, and also being opportunistic on MSR and platform acquisitions. These initiatives, coupled with our operational excellence and improved efficiency through our AI initiatives and our technology continue to support our financial performance.

發展我們的 B2B 平台也專注於建立新的合作夥伴關係、增加現有客戶群的錢包份額，以及抓住 MSR 和平台收購的機會。這些舉措，加上我們卓越的營運和透過人工智慧計畫和技術提高的效率，繼續支持我們的財務表現。

Turning and moving to slide 22. Our origination business also continues to perform well. We funded approximately $17 billion in the fourth quarter, which is up 9% quarter over quarter and $96 million in originations PTI, up 19% from last quarter. This quarter is our best performance -- financial performance since 2021.

轉動並移至第 22 張投影片。我們的發起業務也持續表現良好。我們在第四季的融資額約為 170 億美元，比上一季成長 9%，PTI 發起額為 9,600 萬美元，比上一季成長 19%。本季是我們表現最好的季度——自 2021 年以來的財務表現。

On margins and while the market always remains competitive, we are able to improve our average margins to 131 basis points, up 8 basis points overall quarter over quarter, while maintaining market share. And while all of our channels were profitable in 2024, our multichannel strategy allows us to optimize on opportunities in all markets opportunities.

在利潤率方面，雖然市場始終保持競爭態勢，但我們能夠將平均利潤率提高至 131 個基點，比上一季整體上升 8 個基點，同時保持市場份額。雖然我們所有的通路在 2024 年都實現了盈利，但我們的多通路策略使我們能夠優化所有市場機會。

And this is shown by $270 million of originations PTI for the full year, which is up [1,200%] year over year. And as I mentioned before, one of our top priorities and our biggest opportunity is our ability to retain our customers, which takes us to slide 23, right? Our portfolio now sits at 3.7 million customers and the scale affords significant opportunities for portfolio recapture and customer growth through future cross-sell strategies.

全年 PTI 發起額為 2.7 億美元，較去年同期成長 [1,200%]，就證明了這一點。正如我之前提到的，我們的首要任務之一和最大的機會是留住客戶的能力，這將帶我們進入第 23 頁，對嗎？我們的投資組合目前已擁有 370 萬客戶，這一規模為透過未來的交叉銷售策略重新奪回投資組合和實現客戶成長提供了重大機會。

Our ability to grow our origination business is focused on being able to deliver recapture even without a rate rally and that includes cash out refis, home equity loans, purchase transactions to our existing customer base. But delivering our brand and making investments and building digital tools to enhance our customer experience is key to our success.

我們發展發起業務的能力集中在即使在利率沒有上漲的情況下也能實現收回成本，其中包括現金再融資、房屋淨值貸款、面向現有客戶群的購買交易。但傳遞我們的品牌、進行投資並建立數位工具來提升我們的客戶體驗是我們成功的關鍵。

Moving to slide 24. Our servicing business also continues to perform well. Our total managed servicing portfolio was $844 billion, which is comprised of $525 billion of owned MSRs directly serviced by Newrez, $65 billion of owned MSRs serviced by others, and $254 billion of third-party servicing.

移至投影片 24。我們的服務業務也持續表現良好。我們管理的服務總價值為 8,440 億美元，其中包括由 Newrez 直接服務的 5,250 億美元自有 MSR、由其他公司服務的 650 億美元自有 MSR 以及 2,540 億美元的第三方服務。

As I mentioned before, the financials related to service by others portfolio is now reported in the Newrez, the originations and servicing segment.

正如我之前提到的，與其他服務組合相關的財務狀況現在在 Newrez（發起和服務部門）中報告。

But it's important to note that we, Newrez have always been actively managing these SBO MSRs and the performance of these third-party servicers to ensure alignment to our standards. Our third-party servicing franchise also had a great quarter.

但值得注意的是，我們 Newrez 一直積極管理這些 SBO MSR 和這些第三方服務商的效能，以確保符合我們的標準。我們的第三方服務特許經營本季也表現出色。

We added $21 billion in net notional UPB, which is up 9% quarter over quarter, continuing to gain wallet share with our existing customer base and also adding new customers. But our performance is always driven and continues to be driven by our operational efficiency through our proprietary technology, our scale and cost leadership, and that is seen in our ability to transfer 1.2 million loans in 2024.

我們的淨名目 UPB 增加了 210 億美元，比上一季成長 9%，繼續在現有客戶群中獲得錢包份額，同時也增加了新客戶。但是，我們的業績始終並將繼續由我們透過專有技術、規模和成本領先優勢實現的營運效率所驅動，這體現在我們 2024 年轉移 120 萬筆貸款的能力上。

On slide 25, you see our owned MSR performance, which not surprisingly is reflective of market conditions with higher interest rates and low prepayment speeds. And I'm not going to spend a lot of time on that.

在投影片 25 上，您可以看到我們自己的 MSR 表現，毫不奇怪，它反映了利率較高和預付速度較低的市場狀況。我不會在這上面花太多時間。

Moving to slide 26, right. On our market-leading special servicing franchise is really our presentation on our core capability of our overall platform. It's an important business for us as it is both fee-based, capital-light, and provides significant operating leverage to our platform.

移至第 26 張投影片（右側）。我們市場領先的特殊服務特許經營權實際上是我們整體平台核心能力的展現。這對我們來說是一項重要的業務，因為它既基於費用，又輕資本，並為我們的平台提供了顯著的營運槓桿。

While delinquencies remain low from a historical context and Michael talked about that, you can see in the chart on the bottom left, the delinquencies are slowly on the rise, and we help homeowners find a solution to stay in their home.

雖然從歷史背景來看，拖欠率仍然很低，邁克爾也談到了這一點，但你可以在左下方的圖表中看到，拖欠率正在緩慢上升，我們幫助房主找到保住自己房屋的解決方案。

This has proven not only with our third-party clients continue to grow with us, but also through our performance shown on the right side of the slide as well as supporting homeowners in times of need like the recent hurricanes and Los Angeles fires. I continue to believe our business is as best positioned as it ever has been, and I'm looking forward to continuing telling the Newrez growth story in '25.

這不僅證明了我們的第三方客戶繼續與我們共同成長，還透過幻燈片右側顯示的我們的表現以及在最近的颶風和洛杉磯大火等需要時為房主提供支援來證明。我始終相信我們的業務處於前所未有的最佳位置，我期待在 25 年繼續講述 Newrez 的成長故事。

Back to you, Michael.

回到你身邊，麥可。

Thanks. Operator if we could just turn and open up the lines for Q&A, that would be great.

謝謝。接線員，如果我們可以轉而開通問答線路，那就太好了。

(Operator Instructions) Bose George, KBW.

(操作員指示) Bose George，KBW。

Could you give us any updated thoughts on the potential listing of Newrez in 2025? And then could you also just tie that into your comments, Michael, in your prepared remarks about potential changes in the capital structure at Rithm?

您能否向我們介紹 Newrez 可能在 2025 年上市的最新想法？那麼，邁克爾，您能否將其與您在準備好的 Rithm 資本結構潛在變化的評論中聯繫起來？

Sure. So we're not there yet on listing the company. If you had talked to Nick and the team, we've taken steps to have separate segment reporting where everything is now listed at the mortgage company. So you have a clear view into how that company is doing. I think the big part for us is how do we think about shareholders and not just at the mortgage company level, quite frankly, and get the prep for multiple for how we see ourselves in the business?

當然。所以我們還沒有將該公司上市。如果您與尼克和他的團隊交談過，您就會知道我們已採取措施，進行單獨的分部報告，現在所有內容均在抵押貸款公司列出。這樣您就可以清楚地了解該公司的經營狀況。我認為對我們來說最重要的是我們如何考慮股東，而不僅僅是從抵押貸款公司層面考慮，坦白說，並為我們如何看待自己在業務中的地位做好準備？

That's one of the reasons why I opened up a little different than I typically do. There are some pieces that need to come into play. One is we need to -- if we were going to do that, we want to grow our REIT, so you'd have a dedicated REIT, you'd have a C Corp up top, no different than some of the best-in-class asset managers. And then we'd have our operating companies below.

這就是我以不同於平常的方式敞開心扉的原因之一。有一些因素需要發揮作用。一是我們需要——如果我們要這樣做，我們希望發展我們的房地產投資信託基金，這樣你就會有專門的房地產投資信託基金，你會有一個 C 公司，與一些一流的資產管理公司沒有什麼不同。然後我們就有以下營運公司。

So that's really the path we're on. I will say the M&A pipeline of stuff that we're looking at is extremely robust, whether that be on the asset management side and just some of the other things that manufacturing businesses as I referred to them in our opening remarks. But to tell you today that we're going to list the company, I can't do that. But we are working on our capital structure, and we hope to have some change in that.

所以這確實是我們所走的路。我想說，我們正在考慮的併購管道非常強勁，無論是在資產管理方面，還是在我在開場白中提到的製造業務的其他一些方面。但今天告訴你們我們要讓公司上市，我不能這麼做。但我們正在努力改善我們的資本結構，並希望能有所改變。

We put a lot of thought and talked to -- have some good thoughtful Board discussions. I'm hopeful at some point down the road that we'll get there. We need to grow some scale in the REIT right now.

我們進行了大量的思考並與董事會進行了一些很好的、深思熟慮的討論。我希望我們未來某一天能夠到達那裡。我們現在需要擴大房地產投資信託基金的規模。

Okay. That's helpful. And just in terms of timeline that suggests that it's probably not a 2025 event, will you sort of build out the other pieces, is that fair?

好的。這很有幫助。僅從時間表來看，這可能不會在 2025 年舉行，您會考慮其他部分嗎，這樣公平嗎？

No. I mean, I'd like to do it in 2024, but that's gone. So I think if we can get it down in '25, we absolutely will because I still believe that our common is fundamentally undervalued.

不。我的意思是，我想在 2024 年實現這個目標，但現在已經不再是那時了。因此我認為，如果我們能在 25 年將價格降下來，我們絕對會這麼做，因為我仍然相信我們的普通股從根本上被低估了。

Okay. Great. And actually, just another quick one. The SPAC, I know you can't discuss it, but is that -- would that be part of culture to the extent that happens?

好的。偉大的。實際上，這只是另一個快速的例子。SPAC，我知道你不能討論它，但是，如果發生這種情況，它會成為文化的一部分嗎？

If it does happen, it will be a Rithm company. I can't go into a lot of details, but the way we think about the business, if we could create more fee-earning businesses that flow up to the parent company, we're going to do that. And as we think about diversification, there are certain types of vehicles that we could potentially explore.

如果確實發生的話，它將是一家 Rithm 公司。我無法透露太多細節，但從我們對業務的看法來看，如果我們能夠創造更多流向母公司的收費業務，我們就會這麼做。當我們考慮多樣化時，我們可能會探索某些類型的工具。

Doug Harter, UBS.

瑞銀的道格·哈特（Doug Harter）。

Michael, you talked about scaling up the REIT in your last answer. Just what assets do you find attractive? And kind of how would you look to scale up the REIT?

邁克爾，你在上次回答中談到了擴大房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 的規模。您認為哪些資產具有吸引力？那麼您如何看待擴大房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 的規模呢？

Doug, I think it's more of the same in what we do. If you look at the business, we've allocated a lot of capital. We allocate more and more capital to -- the mortgage company has a lot of capital. Obviously, the MSR business has been extremely beneficial to the company and to shareholders. We continue to believe in that asset, as Baron pointed, I think we have a little under $850 billion and continue to grow the third-party servicing there.

道格，我認為我們所做的事情大同小異。如果你看一下業務，你會發現我們已經投入了大量資金。我們分配越來越多的資本—抵押貸款公司擁有大量資本。顯然，MSR業務對公司和股東極為有利。我們繼續相信這項資產，正如巴倫所指出的，我認為我們的資產略低於 8500 億美元，並將繼續在那裡發展第三方服務。

When you look at -- you have a -- just give or take, for purposes of this discussion, [4.40 or 4.5 tenure note], you have mortgages trading [1.20, 1.30] in the agency market, you look at some of the non-QM assets that we actually produce, so you look at the Genesis side that what we can produce, I think that's where you're going to see growth on the REIT side.

當您查看時 - 您有 - 僅給出或接受，出於本次討論的目的，[4.40 或 4.5 期限票據]，您在代理市場上交易的抵押貸款為 [1.20, 1.30]，您查看我們實際生產的一些非 QM 資產，因此您查看 Genesis 方面我們可以生產什麼，我認為這就是您將在 REIT 方面看到的地方。

Just along those lines, do you -- how do you see kind of the investor property loans today, other private label securitizations and kind of what impact to the Washington discussions around the GSEs have on those opportunities?

沿著這個思路，您如何看待今天的投資者房地產貸款、其他私人標籤證券化以及華盛頓圍繞政府支持企業 (GSE) 的討論對這些機會有何影響？

When and if that happens, I think that we are going to be so well-positioned between our capital base, the LPs that we have in our system, and our mortgage company, which I think is in a class -- it's a world-class mortgage company.

如果發生這種情況，我認為我們將在我們的資本基礎、我們系統中的 LP 以及我們的抵押貸款公司之間佔據非常有利的地位，我認為我們的抵押貸款公司是世界一流的抵押貸款公司。

So whether they be investor loans, whether -- if the agencies went back to the old way where they get privatized, keep in mind, in the old days, G-Fees were, were they 25 basis points or something, give or take that. Right, Baron? You look at where they are, they're 50 basis points today. So there's probably some given part of that could be as you think about the reinsurance market around how that could possibly work and I think that could work. But I think we will be extremely well-positioned for that. And I'd like to see it, quite frankly.

因此，無論它們是否是投資者貸款，也無論 — — 如果這些機構回到過去的私有化方式，請記住，在過去，G 費是 25 個基點或類似的數額，或多或少。對吧，巴倫？你看看他們現在的狀況，今天是 50 個基點。因此，當您思考再保險市場如何運作時，可能存在一些特定的部分，我認為這是可行的。但我認為我們將為此做好極為有利的準備。坦白說，我很想看到它。

And Michael, just one more if I could. Just on your comments about growing and scaling the REIT. Can you do that with your existing capital base? Or would you need to raise additional capital to do that?

邁克爾，如果可以的話我再問一句。只是關於您對 REIT 成長和擴大規模的評論。您能利用現有的資本基礎做到這一點嗎？還是你需要籌集額外資金來實現這個目標？

It depends. It could be a combination of both. Keep in mind, most REITs tend to operate by themselves. There's not a lot of M&A activity in the REIT space. When I look at our business and think about permitting capital and having a little under $8 billion, that's a good place to be away from our so-called asset management arm. So if we could grow that and then at some point, create management fees, I think we're off to the races.

這取決於。這可能是兩者的結合。請記住，大多數房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 傾向於自行運作。房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 領域的併購活動並不多。當我審視我們的業務並考慮允許資本並擁有略低於 80 億美元的資金時，這是一個遠離我們所謂的資產管理部門的好地方。因此，如果我們能夠實現這一成長，然後在某個時候產生管理費，我想我們就可以開始了。

Kenneth Lee, RBC Capital Markets.

加拿大皇家銀行資本市場 (RBC Capital Markets) 的 Kenneth Lee。

Just one on Sculptor, you talked about some initiatives to grow the credit business. I wonder if I can get a little bit more detail in terms of what particular initiatives? And what are your expectations in terms of fundraising for this year?

在 Sculptor 上，您談到了一些發展信貸業務的舉措。我想知道我是否可以更詳細地了解具體舉措？您對今年的募款有什麼期望？

So on the initiatives, it's more of the same. It's lead with performance. Performance is going to bring in more AUM. The team, there's a large capital formation team. Everybody is out on the road and seeing LPs. When I think about the initiatives to actually grow, whether it'd be credit in some of the other businesses, there's two ways really to do it, right?

因此，就這些舉措而言，情況大致上是相同的。它以性能為主導。績效將帶來更多的AUM。這個團隊有一個龐大的資本形成團隊。每個人都在路上觀看 LP。當我考慮實際的成長舉措時，無論是在其他一些業務中獲得信貸，實際上都有兩種方法可以做到，對嗎？

You could do some in M&A, but we can't be the folks that are going to pay 20x or 30x on a multiple basis. So it could be some, there's a couple of different platforms out there that we're actually looking at. But I think real performance is going to bring in a lot more capital.

您可以在併購中做一些事情，但我們不能成為以倍數支付 20 倍或 30 倍的人。因此，我們實際上正在考慮一些不同的平台。但我認為真正的表現將帶來更多的資本。

If you think about it, the company is a great company, obviously in the press for a bit. But out on the other side, a year-end change removed performance great everywhere. So I'm excited. We talk -- we all talk a lot of LPs, and I think you're going to -- we're going to see a fair amount of capital come in. As you think about how much capital to be raised this year, right now, the real estate guys are, I can't give you specific numbers, but those guys are doing well.

如果你仔細想想，你會發現這家公司是一家很棒的公司，顯然已經受到媒體的關注。但另一方面，年底的變動讓所有地方都失去了出色的表現。所以我很興奮。我們談論了很多 LP，我想你會看到，我們將會看到相當多的資本流入。當你考慮今年需要籌集多少資金時，目前，房地產商……我無法給你具體的數字，但他們做得很好。

The credit side is doing well. So we expect a pretty good year. We're not Blackstone or Apollo, unfortunately, but there's a lot of room for us out there.

信貸方面表現良好。因此我們預期這將是相當好的一年。不幸的是，我們不是黑石集團或阿波羅集團，但我們還有很大的發展空間。

Got you. Very helpful there. And one follow-up if I may, just on Sculptor as well. Any updated outlook around the expense base for Sculptor, is it still in an investment phase there? Just any kind of color around where expenses could trend there?

明白了。非常有幫助。如果可以的話，我還有一個後續問題，也只是關於 Sculptor。關於 Sculptor 的費用基礎有任何更新的展望嗎？周圍是否有任何一種顏色可以顯示費用趨勢？

I think it's more BAU, honestly. We always evaluate expenses, whether it be at Sculptor or whether it be at the mortgage company, whether we be at Rithm, creating synergies, obviously, across all of our operating platforms will help, and we continue to work on those. So we could have some saves at some point. I think, yeah, I mean it's just part of our discipline about risk management, putting up higher earnings for our shareholders.

說實話，我認為它更像是 BAU。我們總是評估費用，無論是在 Sculptor 還是抵押貸款公司，無論是在 Rithm，創造協同效應，顯然，在我們所有的營運平台上都會有所幫助，我們會繼續努力。因此我們可以在某些時候進行一些保存。是的，我想這只是我們風險管理紀律的一部分，為股東帶來更高的利益。

Giuliano Bologna, Compass Point.

朱利亞諾·博洛尼亞，指南針角。

Congrats on the continued performance. One thing I'd be curious about when you think about the kind of growing the REITs, would there be any value or like ability to push assets into the Rithm Property Trust structure and use that as a public vehicle or would you want to create more separate vehicles over time that have slightly different strategies on the kind of the REIT side in the world?

恭喜您繼續出色的表現。當您考慮房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 的增長方式時，我很好奇的一件事是，將資產推入 Rithm Property Trust 結構並將其用作公共工具是否有任何價值或能力，或者您是否想隨著時間的推移創建更多獨立的工具，這些工具在世界上的房地產投資信託基金 (REIT) 方面採用略有不同的策略？

I think it's both. We prefer not to transfer assets from one REIT to another, just to be clear on that. We're looking at a transaction, for example, now in the commercial real estate sector where both Rithm and Rithm Property Trust will likely participate as two separate entities because obviously, the amount of capital in Rithm Property Trust is not large enough.

我認為兩者兼而有之。我們不願意將資產從一個房地產投資信託基金轉移到另一個房地產投資信託基金，只是為了明確這一點。例如，我們正在考慮一項商業房地產領域的交易，其中 Rithm 和 Rithm Property Trust 都可能作為兩個獨立實體參與，因為顯然 Rithm Property Trust 的資本金額不夠大。

Then when we think about risk and the sheer size of doing any one thing, we want to make sure that we're balanced from a risk perspective. It's going to be more where we'd like to continue to create more vehicles.

然後，當我們考慮風險以及做任何一件事的規模時，我們要確保從風險的角度保持平衡。我們希望繼續創造更多的車輛。

We want to think about other verticals that we may or may not have been in, I pointed out on the energy infrastructure side, a couple of world-class folks building a business, have third-party capital commitments, trillions needed for that. That's another example of something that will grow, but that will be more in the private fund side.

我們要考慮我們可能涉及或可能未涉及的其他垂直領域，我指出，在能源基礎設施方面，一些世界級的人士建立一家企業，獲得第三方資本承諾，這需要數萬億美元。這是另一個會成長的例子，但這更多的是在私募基金方面。

And this might take a little bit of different angle, but there's you've obviously done a great job historically making acquisitions on the mortgage company or MSR. So I'm curious when you talk about M&A, are there any opportunities around the mortgage company or originator services and/or bulk pools that you might be looking at? Or you focus on M&A elsewhere on the platform first?

這可能需要一點不同的角度，但很明顯，你們在收購抵押貸款公司或 MSR 方面做得很好。所以我很好奇，當您談到併購時，您是否可能正在考慮抵押貸款公司或發起服務和/或批量資金池方面的機會？或者您首先專注於平台上其他地方的併購？

No. Listen, we look at everything. If there's something that's accretive for the capital and for shareholders, we'll have a hard run at it. There's not that many mortgage companies, quite frankly, that are, in our opinion, from where we sit that are -- I shouldn't say worth it, but like we don't need anything else. If there's something that's accretive, obviously, we love the MSR asset. That's been very good to us and our shareholders.

不。聽著，我們正在觀察一切。如果某件事能為資本和股東帶來增值，我們就會努力去做。坦白說，我們認為，從我們目前的情況來看，沒有那麼多抵押貸款公司——我不應該說值得，但我們不需要其他任何東西。如果有可以增值的東西，顯然我們喜歡 MSR 資產。這對我們和我們的股東都非常有利。

We'll continue to look at that. We're starting to see some real demand for MSR funds as well. So you may see that start going off balance sheet and that frees up some capital too. But what I would say, Giuliano if there's something out there, and we have an M&A team, we look at anything and everything, just need to have the expertise around the house to execute.

我們將繼續關注此事。我們也開始看到對 MSR 基金的一些實際需求。因此，您可能會看到這開始脫離資產負債表，並且也會釋放一些資本。但我想說的是，Giuliano，如果有什麼東西在那裡，我們有一個併購團隊，我們會考慮任何事情，只是需要有專業知識來執行。

That's helpful. And maybe one last one. You talked about the C Corp conversion. Is that something that you could pursue in the near term? Or is there any kind of preference to try to do something with the mortgage company, partial IPO wise before you're through that? Or could you pursue a C Corp conversion sooner?

這很有幫助。也許還有最後一個。您談到了 C 公司轉換。這是您近期可以追求的事嗎？或者在完成這些之前，是否有任何偏好嘗試與抵押貸款公司合作，例如部分 IPO？或者您可以儘早進行 C 公司轉換嗎？

I think we could do both, honestly. But it's got to be something that's highly accretive for both shareholders and the company. If you think about that as a REIT, we've paid out, I think, since '21, $5.8 billion in dividends. If you had that capital and you compounded that capital, it's my belief, I think the stock would be in the [20s] or it should be anyway. So when we look at all that stuff, all the stuff goes into our calculation. But I think anything is on the table, knowing as we all know each other if we could do something yesterday, I'd prefer to do it yesterday.

說實話，我認為我們可以同時做到這兩件事。但它必須能夠為股東和公司帶來巨大增值。如果你把它看作房地產投資信託基金 (REIT)，我想，自 21 年以來，我們已經支付了 58 億美元的股息。如果你擁有這些資本，並且將這些資本進行複合增長，我相信，股價將會在 [20] 左右，或者無論如何都應該在 20] 左右。所以當我們考慮所有這些東西時，所有這些都會納入我們的計算中。但我認為一切皆有可能，我們都知道，如果我們昨天可以做些什麼，我更願意昨天就做。

Eric Hagen, BTIG.

BTIG 的 Eric Hagen。

When we look to the investment portfolio and we strip out the leverage that's associated with the hedging of the MSRs, what is the leverage in that portfolio? How stable do you feel like it is there? And do you feel like there's even some room to apply more leverage if Newrez were to get spun out at some point?

當我們審視投資組合併去除與 MSR 對沖相關的槓桿時，該投資組合中的槓桿是多少？您覺得那裡有多穩定？您是否覺得，如果 Newrez 在某個時候被分拆出來，還有空間施加更多的影響力？

Most of the balance sheet, what I would say today is really around two asset classes. MSRs and our hedges in the mortgage company. So if you think about it, whether we have swaps on, whether we have treasuries on, whether we have agency mortgages, that's a big chunk of the overall balance sheet.

我今天要講的大部分資產負債表其實是圍繞著兩類資產展開的。MSR 和我們在抵押貸款公司的對沖。所以如果你想一想，無論我們是否有掉期，是否有國債，是否有機構抵押貸款，這都佔了整個資產負債表的很大一部分。

At the Rithm level, the other large part of what I would say in the non-agency space is the Genesis loans because we finance those with some of our banks or insurance companies or do securitization. So the short answer is we could increase the leverage.

在 Rithm 層面，我想說的非代理領域的另一大部分是 Genesis 貸款，因為我們透過一些銀行或保險公司為這些貸款提供融資或進行證券化。因此，簡而言之，我們可以增加槓桿率。

I think we'll only do that if we think it's prudent. But I don't think we need to right now based on the earnings power of where we sit.

我認為，我們只有在認為謹慎的情況下才會這麼做。但根據我們所處的獲利能力，我認為我們現在還不需要這樣做。

Okay. That's helpful. I actually want to ask about Shellpoint because subservicing feels like an increasingly relevant driver of the earnings story at Newrez. I mean, I think you mentioned how much your subservicing now maybe you can repeat that. And what was the contribution to earnings from Shellpoint?

好的。這很有幫助。我實際上想問一下 Shellpoint 的情況，因為次級服務似乎對 Newrez 的盈利情況產生了越來越重要的影響。我的意思是，我認為您提到了您現在的次級服務量有多大，也許您可以重複。Shellpoint 對收益的貢獻是多少？

And do you feel like there's any growth opportunities there, even if mortgage rates like stay around these levels and new supply is kind of limited?

即使抵押貸款利率保持在這些水平並且新供應有限，您是否覺得那裡存在任何增長機會？

Look, there continues to be demand on different non-agency products, right? Non-QM is very, very competitive in the marketplace today. We continue to be the number one special servicer for non-QM assets. So we continue to see growth there, our opportunities with banks and existing relationships that we take market share based upon how they're positioning.

你看，對不同的非代理產品的需求持續存在，對嗎？在現今，非品質管理在市場上的競爭非常激烈。我們繼續成為非 QM 資產的頭號特殊服務商。因此，我們繼續看到那裡的成長、我們與銀行的合作機會以及現有的關係，我們將根據銀行的定位來佔領市場份額。

So we do look at it as continued growth, and you see that by us adding more loan in the fourth quarter, and our pipeline continues to look strong in '25. So I think you're going to continue to see us taking market share, especially given a lot of the dislocation you saw last year in what I'll say, third-party servicing.

因此，我們確實將其視為持續成長，而且您會看到，我們在第四季度增加了更多貸款，並且我們的業務管道在 25 年繼續保持強勁。因此我認為你會繼續看到我們佔領市場份額，特別是考慮到去年在第三方服務方面出現的大量混亂。

Jay McCanless, Wedbush.

傑伊麥坎利斯，韋德布希。

Two for me. The first one, just kind of a general market question for '25. If you look at the [NBA] data, mortgage credit availability is still sitting at levels around 2012, 2013, do you guys think just in general, maybe not specifically for Rithm, but just in general, do we think mortgage credit availability is going to increase going into this year? Or is some of that going to be dependent on what happens with the GSE?

對我來說是兩個。第一個問題只是針對 25 年的一個一般市場問題。如果您查看 [NBA] 數據，抵押貸款信貸可用性仍然處於 2012 年、2013 年左右的水平，您認為從總體上看，可能不專門針對 Rithm，但從總體上看，我們是否認為抵押貸款信貸可用性今年會增加？或者這將取決於 GSE 發生的情況？

I mean, look, Michael has talked about this on prior quarters, we have an expectation that rates are going to stay elevated. So what you're going to continue to see is that consumers obviously are going to have to deal with the affordability issue of trying to buy a new home.

我的意思是，你看，邁克爾在前幾個季度已經談到了這一點，我們預計利率將保持在高位。因此，您將繼續看到的是，消費者顯然必須解決購買新房屋的承受能力問題。

And that's why we're very much focused on our existing book. But we continue to also see consumers looking to move. So you see that in the amount of inventory and housing inventory that's available for sale continues to basically what I'll say is tick up.

這就是我們非常關注現有書籍的原因。但我們也看到消費者正在尋求搬家。因此，您會看到，可供出售的庫存和房屋庫存數量基本上繼續呈上升趨勢。

So our expectation is you'll probably see a larger purchase market. And we think that home equity loans are going to continue to grow, and cash outs are going to continue to grow. Whether or not any of the government programs make an adjustment, I don't really think that's going to be necessarily a '25 impact.

因此，我們預期您可能會看到更大的購買市場。我們認為，房屋淨值貸款將會持續成長，現金支出也將持續成長。無論政府計劃是否做出調整，我都不認為這必然會產生 25 年的影響。

But at the same time, our belief is they're very much focused on affordability. And I think that whatever programs that they adjust are going to basically have that as a focal point as well. So it is going to be a little bit of a balance. So I think that mortgage credit availability overall is probably going to stay in its current state.

但同時，我們相信他們非常注重可負擔性。我認為，無論他們調整什麼計劃，基本上都會以此為重點。因此這將會是一種稍微平衡一點的情況。因此我認為，總體而言，抵押貸款信貸的可用性可能仍將維持在當前狀態。

Insurance is a problem, obviously. I mean the cost of home ownership has gone up, rates up, insurance is a problem. You just had the LA fire.

顯然，保險是一個問題。我的意思是，房屋所有權的成本上漲了，利率也上漲了，保險也是一個問題。洛杉磯剛剛發生大火。

Yeah. And that just drives into affordability consideration as well.

是的。這也考慮到了可負擔性。

Okay. Great. And then my second question, you guys talked at the beginning of the call about infrastructure finance and doing some investments there. I guess with some of the changes that we're seeing in the new administration, how does that affect your desire and potential customer desire to do more investments in that space? And are there any headlines, insights, road map, whatever, however you want to phrase it, anything that we should be watching for to tell us whether or not you guys are going to get more invested in that space?

好的。偉大的。我的第二個問題是，你們在電話會議開始時談到了基礎設施融資以及在那裡進行的一些投資。我想，我們看到新政府的一些變化，這會對您和潛在客戶在該領域進行更多投資的願望產生什麼影響？有什麼標題、見解、路線圖或其他什麼，無論您想如何表述，我們應該關注什麼來告訴我們你們是否會在該領域投入更多？

Great question. It's a little bit early. You heard this morning that the administration wants to ban DeepSeek. I'm going to tell you that I am not the expert on this stuff. I have two partners, and we have two partners, who're likely going to join us, world-class around this.

好問題。有點早了。您今天早上聽說政府想要禁止 DeepSeek。我要告訴你，我不是這方面的專家。我有兩個合作夥伴，我們也有兩個合作夥伴，他們可能會加入我們，他們是這方面的世界級人物。

Everybody is talking about the multitrillion dollar investment opportunity and the huge needs for capital. And that's how we're going to think about it. I mean I think the world -- this stuff is going to continue to change. But when I look and I recently said in some meetings with some of the extremely large so-called hyperscalers, it's a really, really interesting space. You got to have the expertise to do it, and you got to have a lot of capital because the world is short of power.

每個人都在談論數萬億美元的投資機會和巨大的資本需求。這就是我們思考這個問題的方式。我的意思是，我認為世界——這些東西將會繼續改變。但當我觀察並且最近在與一些超大規模企業舉行的會議中談到時，我發現這是一個非常非常有趣的領域。你必須擁有專業知識才能做到這一點，而且還必須擁有大量資本，因為世界缺乏電力。

Whether it's AI or something else, the world is short of power. And with our team and our partners, I'm extremely excited about where we could go with this.

不管是人工智慧還是其他什麼東西，這個世界都缺乏力量。和我們的團隊以及合作夥伴一起，我對我們的未來發展感到非常興奮。

Matthew Erdner, JonesTrading.

馬修·埃德納（Matthew Erdner），瓊斯貿易（JonesTrading）。

So turning back to Newrez, the funded volume has continued to increase quarter over quarter. You guys have had great growth there. kind of within the non-QM and home equity space, we've seen a lot of competition there. And then there's a lot of other players stepping into the place or into the space. How do you continue to drive market share growth there? Is it investment in your team you guys growing that out? Can you just speak to that a little bit?

回顧 Newrez，其融資額度持續逐季增加。你們在那裡取得了巨大的進步。在非 QM 和房屋淨值領域，我們看到了非常激烈的競爭。然後有很多其他玩家進入這個地方或這個空間。您如何繼續推動其市場份額的成長？這是對你們團隊的投資嗎？您能稍微談談這個問題嗎？

It's an investment in the team. It's investment in our technology. It's an investment in our brand. Those are the three key initiatives across the board, right? We continue to believe there's significant upside for us on just focusing on our own homeowners.

這是對團隊的一項投資。這是對我們技術的投資。這是對我們品牌的投資。這些就是全面的三項關鍵舉措，對嗎？我們始終相信，只關注我們自己的房主會為我們帶來巨大的利益。

We haven't even really -- if we felt like we wanted to get into new customer acquisition. And we do new customer acquisition on our distributed retail platforms, but like on our call centers, it's really just focused internally on our own portfolio and making sure that we're maximizing there. So I would tell you, unequivocally, we are making significant platform investments on all of those initiatives.

我們甚至還沒有真正——如果我們覺得我們想要獲得新客戶的話。我們在分散式零售平台上進行新客戶獲取，但就像我們的呼叫中心一樣，我們實際上只是內部關注我們自己的投資組合，並確保我們在那裡最大化。因此我可以明確地告訴你，我們正在對所有這些計劃進行重大的平台投資。

This concludes our question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Michael Nierenberg for any closing remarks.

我們的問答環節到此結束。我想將會議交還給麥可‧尼倫伯格，請他作最後發言。

Well, thanks for everybody's questions, really thoughtful this morning. Obviously, very excited about where we sit as a business and all of our different business lines and look forward to updating you after Q1, more to come. Have a great day and a great rest of the week. Thanks, everyone.

好吧，感謝大家的提問，今天早上真的很發人深省。顯然，我們對我們作為一家企業所處的地位以及我們所有不同的業務線感到非常興奮，並期待在第一季之後向您更新更多資訊。祝您有個愉快的一天並度過愉快的一周。謝謝大家。

The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。