Power Integrations Inc (POWI) 2023 Q4 法說會逐字稿

Thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Power Integrations Q4 earnings conference call.

謝謝你的支持。歡迎參加 Power Integrations 第四季財報電話會議。

I would now like to welcome Joe Shiffler, Director of Investor Relations, to begin the call. Joe, over to you.

我現在歡迎投資者關係總監 Joe Shiffler 開始電話會議。喬，交給你了。

Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for joining us. With me on the call today are Balu Balakrishnan, Chairman and CEO of Power Integrations; and Sandeep Nayyar, our Chief Financial Officer.

謝謝。大家下午好。感謝您加入我們。今天與我一起參加電話會議的是 Power Integrations 董事長兼執行長 Balu Balakrishnan；以及我們的財務長桑迪普‧內亞爾 (Sandeep Nayyar)。

During this call, we will refer to financial measures not calculated according to GAAP. Non-GAAP measures for the fourth quarter exclude stock-based compensation expenses, amortization of acquisition-related intangible assets, and the tax effects of these items. A reconciliation of non-GAAP measures to our GAAP results is included in today's press release.

在本次電話會議中，我們將參考未根據 GAAP 計算的財務指標。第四季的非公認會計準則指標不包括股票補償費用、收購相關無形資產攤銷以及這些項目的稅務影響。今天的新聞稿中包含了非公認會計原則措施與我們的公認會計原則結果的調節。

Our discussion today, including the Q&A session, will include forward-looking statements denoted by words like will, would, believe, should, expect, outlook, forecast, anticipate, and similar expressions that look toward future events or performance. Such statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially from those projected or implied. Such risks are discussed in today's press release and in our most recent Form 10-K filed with the SEC on February 7, 2023.

我們今天的討論，包括問答環節，將包括前瞻性陳述，這些陳述用諸如意願、將、相信、應該、期望、展望、預測、預計以及展望未來事件或表現的類似表達方式表示。此類陳述存在風險和不確定性，可能導致實際結果與預測或暗示的結果有重大差異。今天的新聞稿以及我們於 2023 年 2 月 7 日向 SEC 提交的最新 10-K 表格中討論了此類風險。

Finally, this call is the property of Power Integrations. Any recording or rebroadcast is expressly prohibited without the written consent of Power Integrations.

最後，此呼叫是 Power Integrations 的財產。未經 Power Integrations 書面同意，明確禁止任何錄音或轉播。

Now, I'll turn it over to Balu.

現在，我將把它交給Balu。

Thanks, Joe, and good afternoon. As expected, fourth-quarter revenues were lower as a result of soft demand and elevated supply chain inventories, and we expect first-quarter revenues to be about flat sequentially reflecting these continued headwinds. However, while channel inventory is still above normal, it fell by more than a week during the quarter as sell-through exceeded sell-in by a considerable margin. In dollar terms, we are at our lowest level of channel inventory in two years, and we expect further decline in Q1.

謝謝，喬，下午好。正如預期的那樣，由於需求疲軟和供應鏈庫存增加，第四季度收入較低，我們預計第一季營收將環比持平，反映出這些持續的不利因素。然而，儘管渠道庫存仍高於正常水平，但由於銷量大幅超過銷量，該季度庫存下降了一周多。以美元計算，我們的通路庫存處於兩年來的最低水平，我們預計第一季將進一步下降。

We are especially encouraged by lower inventories related to the appliance market, which accounts for the bulk of the consumer category. Distribution sell-through for consumer was up sequentially in Q4 and far exceeded sell-in, bringing the channel inventory back to normal in terms of weeks and to the lowest level in eight quarters based on dollars. End customer inventories have also improved considerably over the past several quarters and we are seeing an uptick in bookings from customers that are largely dormant throughout the last year.

與家電市場相關的庫存下降尤其令我們感到鼓舞，該市場佔消費類別的大部分。第四季度消費者的分銷銷售量連續上升，並遠遠超過銷售量，使通路庫存以周計恢復正常，並以美元計算達到八個季度以來的最低水平。在過去幾個季度中，最終客戶庫存也大幅改善，我們看到去年大部分處於休眠狀態的客戶的預訂量增加。

While appliance demand is clearly being hampered by the downturn in housing, our consumer revenues in 2023 were below even the pre-COVID levels of 2019, suggesting that we are shipping well below end demand and could be poised for recovery in 2024. In fact, we expect consumer to lead the way as we begin to see overall sequential revenue growth beginning in the June quarter, with a more meaningful improvement in the second half of the year.

雖然家電需求顯然受到房地產低迷的阻礙，但我們 2023 年的消費者收入甚至低於 2019 年新冠肺炎疫情前的水平，這表明我們的出貨量遠低於最終需求，並有望在 2024 年復蘇。事實上，我們預期消費者將引領潮流，因為我們從六月季度開始看到整體營收環比成長，並在下半年出現更有意義的改善。

While 2023 was a difficult year, with revenue down more than 30%, there were pockets of growth in several areas that are key to our long-term growth strategy. Our Hiper driver business had a second consecutive year of growth, even as the broader industrial category was down almost 40%. We had an outstanding year in terms of design wins in high power, with a projected annual revenue value of the design wins up more than 70% from the prior year. Renewable energy was the major driver of that growth, with significant wins not only in the utility-scale solar and wind markets, but also in the adjacent high-voltage DC transmission market.

儘管 2023 年是艱難的一年，收入下降了 30% 以上，但在對我們長期成長策略至關重要的幾個領域仍出現了一些成長。我們的 Hiper 驅動器業務連續第二年成長，儘管更廣泛的工業類別下降了近 40%。我們在高功率設計獲勝方面表現出色，預計設計獲勝的年收入值將比前一年增長 70% 以上。再生能源是這一成長的主要動力，不僅在公用事業規模的太陽能和風能市場，而且在鄰近的高壓直流輸電市場也取得了重大勝利。

On our July call, we announced a major multi-year award for an undersea link connecting North sea wind farm to the mainland. In Q4, we received an initial multimillion dollar purchase order for that design as project prepares to ramp up later this year.

在我們 7 月的電話會議上，我們宣布了一項重要的多年獎，旨在建造一條連接北海風電場與大陸的海底線路。在第四季度，我們收到了該設計的初始數百萬美元採購訂單，該項目準備在今年稍後啟動。

Another bright spot in 2023 was India, where revenues increased year over year and are approaching 10% of total sales. This is not just a result of manufacturing moving out of China, but also a rising level of in-country design as production for the domestic market, including a rapidly expanding middle class and modernizing infrastructure. We are participating in a number of ways, with significant design wins in 5G fixed wireless, smart utility meters, and appliances, including ceiling fans, which are converting to brushless DC motors, utilizing our BridgeSwitch motor driver ICs.

2023 年的另一個亮點是印度，其收入逐年增長，接近總銷售額的 10%。這不僅是製造業遷出中國的結果，也是國內設計作為國內市場生產水準不斷提高的結果，包括迅速擴大的中產階級和現代化的基礎設施。我們以多種方式參與其中，在 5G 固定無線、智慧公用電錶和電器（包括吊扇）方面取得了重大設計勝利，這些電器正在使用我們的 BridgeSwitch 馬達驅動器 IC 轉換為無刷直流馬達。

We also have a strong pipeline of design opportunities in electric transportation in everything from two wheelers to buses and locomotives. Speaking of which, we made tremendous progress in our automotive business in 2023, racking up wins and expanding our design pipeline in high-voltage EV applications, such as drive train emergency power, 12-volt battery replacement, and micro DC-DC converters. Our automotive qualified products are extremely well suited for these applications, which not only require high efficiency, but also benefit from the reliability and the space savings off of a low-component count design.

我們在電動交通領域也擁有豐富的設計機會，涵蓋從兩輪車到巴士和機車的各種領域。說到這裡，我們在2023 年的汽車業務取得了巨大進展，在高壓電動車應用領域取得了勝利並擴大了我們的設計管道，例如傳動系統應急電源、12 伏特電池更換和微型DC-DC 轉換器。我們的汽車級產品非常適合這些應用，這些應用不僅需要高效率，而且還受益於低組件數設計的可靠性和空間節省。

Eight car brands are now shipping vehicles using InnoSwitch or SCALE-iDriver in traction inverter applications. Meanwhile, our pipeline of EV design opportunities grew by more than 80% in 2023, with sample stage designs at various levels of progress across all regions and most major Tier 1s and OEMs. We expect several such designs to start production later this year.

八個汽車品牌目前正在運輸在牽引逆變器應用中使用 InnoSwitch 或 SCALE-iDriver 的車輛。同時，我們的電動車設計機會管道到 2023 年增長了 80% 以上，所有地區以及大多數主要一級供應商和 OEM 的樣品階段設計都取得了不同程度的進展。我們預計幾種此類設計將於今年稍後開始生產。

Another 2023 success story was GaN, not only in terms of revenue growth, but also key technology breakthroughs, including the introduction of 900-volt and 1,250-volt GaN switches. While other suppliers are limited by capabilities of foundry-based GaN technology, we designed our proprietary GaN to support higher voltages, and we expect to announce the next step on the roadmap in the near future. GaN has significant cost advantages over silicon carbide in the voltage and power ranges that it can address. And we expect the overlap between two technologies to increase over time as we further advance our technology and bring out more system-level GaN products.

2023 年的另一個成功故事是 GaN，不僅在收入成長方面，而且在關鍵技術突破方面，包括推出 900 伏特和 1,250 伏特 GaN 開關。雖然其他供應商受到基於代工的 GaN 技術能力的限制，但我們設計了專有的 GaN 以支援更高的電壓，並且我們預計將在不久的將來宣布路線圖的下一步。在可滿足的電壓和功率範圍內，GaN 比碳化矽具有顯著的成本優勢。隨著我們進一步推進技術並推出更多系統級 GaN 產品，我們預計兩種技術之間的重疊會隨著時間的推移而增加。

As indicated by recent M&A activity, market participants are recognizing the potential of GaN to be a transformational technology in power electronics, with huge opportunities in markets such as automotive, data center, appliances, and mobile devices. Proprietary technology and know-how in high-voltage GaN are scarce assets, and Power Integrations has more than anyone else in the market.

最近的併購活動表明，市場參與者正在認識到 GaN 成為電力電子領域變革性技術的潛力，在汽車、資料中心、家用電器和行動裝置等市場中蘊藏著巨大機會。高壓 GaN 領域的專有技術和專業知識是稀缺資產，而 Power Integrations 擁有的資源比市場上任何其他公司都多。

Our latest GaN product introduction came last week with InnoSwitch 5-Pro, which will sit with the choice of 750- or 900-volt GaN switch. InnoSwitch 5 is a shining example of our system-level approach to power conversion technology, marrying the efficiency of GaN with a novel control scheme that implements high efficiency, zero-voltage switching, or ZVS, with only a single GaN switch versus two switches required in typical ZVS designs.

我們上週推出了最新的 GaN 產品 InnoSwitch 5-Pro，可選擇 750 伏特或 900 伏特 GaN 開關。InnoSwitch 5 是我們系統級電源轉換技術方法的光輝典範，它將 GaN 的效率與實現高效率、零電壓開關或 ZVS 的新穎控制方案相結合，只需要一個 GaN 開關，而不需要兩個開關在典型的ZVS 設計中。

The combination of GaN and ZVS delivers efficiency of better than 95%, with very low component count, enabling exceptional power density for high-power charges up to 220 watts. We demonstrated this capability with a new reference design, showing 140-watt USB PD charger with a volume of just 4.2 cubic inches, less than half the size of standard 90-watt notebook adapter with over 50% more power.

GaN 和 ZVS 的組合可提供高於 95% 的效率，且元件數量極少，可為高達 220 瓦的高功率充電提供卓越的功率密度。我們透過新的參考設計展示了這項功能，展示了體積僅為 4.2 立方英寸的 140 瓦 USB PD 充電器，不到標準 90 瓦筆記本適配器尺寸的一半，但功率卻高出 50% 以上。

To conclude, while 2023 was a challenging year and the current down cycle has been severe, we have weathered it by sticking to our playbook that has served us well in past downturns. That includes building wafer inventory to protect our dedicated foundry capacity and to be ready for a strong upturn. It includes buying back stock at opportune moments, as we did in Q4, and it includes prudent expense control along with continued investment in GaN, EVs, motor drive, renewable energy, and the India market. And while the slope of recovery is uncertain, we see good indications that sequential growth will start in the second quarter, with a better second half to follow.

總而言之，雖然 2023 年是充滿挑戰的一年，而且當前的經濟下行週期也很嚴重，但我們透過堅持在過去的經濟低迷時期對我們大有裨益的策略，度過了難關。這包括建立晶圓庫存，以保護我們的專用代工產能，並為強勁的復甦做好準備。它包括適時回購股票，就像我們在第四季度所做的那樣，還包括審慎的費用控制以及對 GaN、電動車、馬達驅動、再生能源和印度市場的持續投資。儘管復甦的斜率尚不確定，但我們看到了良好的跡象，表明第二季將開始連續成長，並在下半年出現更好的表現。

With that, I'll turn it over to Sandeep for a review of the financials.

這樣，我會將其交給桑迪普進行財務審查。

Thanks, Balu, and good afternoon. Fourth-quarter revenues were just under $90 million, in the middle of our guidance range, while non-GAAP earnings were $0.22 per diluted share, above the level implied in our guidance, thanks to lower operating expenses and a $0.04 tax benefit. For the year, revenues were down 32% to [$445 million], while non-GAAP earnings were $1.29 compared to $3.29 a year ago. While this was a challenging year from a financial perspective, we believe we have managed the business prudently while staying focused on the long term, as always.

謝謝巴魯，下午好。第四季營收略低於9,000 萬美元，處於我們指引範圍的中間，而非GAAP 攤薄後每股收益為0.22 美元，高於我們指導中暗示的水平，這要歸功於較低的營運費用和0.04美元的稅收優惠。今年營收下降 32%，至 4.45 億美元，非 GAAP 收益為 1.29 美元，去年同期為 3.29 美元。雖然從財務角度來看，這是充滿挑戰的一年，但我們相信，我們一如既往地謹慎管理業務，同時專注於長期發展。

We held non-GAAP expenses growth to less than 2% in spite of high inflation without reduction in employee compensation or benefits. In fact, we gave normal raises last year and continued our practice of paying an above average portion of the cost of benefits, despite extreme price pressures in the insurance market. As Balu noted, we maintained this expense discipline while making necessary investments for long-term growth, including our automotive efforts, our expanding presence in India, continued development on our GaN technology and the products that will double our SAM by 2027.

儘管通貨膨脹率很高，但在不減少員工薪資或福利的情況下，我們仍將非公認會計準則費用成長控制在 2% 以下。事實上，儘管保險市場面臨巨大的價格壓力，我們去年還是進行了正常的加薪，並繼續支付高於平均水平的福利成本。正如Balu 指出的那樣，我們保持了這一支出紀律，同時為長期成長進行了必要的投資，包括我們的汽車業務、擴大在印度的業務、持續開發我們的GaN 技術以及到2027 年使我們的SAM翻倍的產品。

I will quickly recap the Q4 results and the outlook, and then we will open it up for questions. Revenues for the quarter were just under $90 million, down 29% from the prior quarter, with all four end market categories sequentially low. As expected, communications was down the most with a decline of about 40%.

我將快速回顧第四季度的業績和前景，然後我們將開放提問。該季度的營收略低於 9,000 萬美元，比上一季下降 29%，所有四個終端市場類別均連續下降。如預期，通訊業下降幅度最大，下降了約 40%。

As we noted on last quarter's call, we had significant restocking in the previous quarter by distributors serving the Chinese handset supply chain. We also saw a steep decline in Q4 related to an inventory correction at a non-Chinese handset customer. The correction also affected tablets, which drove a decrease of about 35% in the computer category.

正如我們在上個季度的電話會議中指出的那樣，為中國手機供應鏈服務的分銷商在上個季度進行了大量補貨。我們也看到第四季的急劇下降與非中國手機客戶的庫存調整有關。這項調整也影響了平板電腦，導致電腦類別下降了約 35%。

Industrial and consumer revenues were each down about 20% from the prior quarter, again driven by elevated supply chain inventories and soft demand. Revenue mix for the quarter was 35% industrial, 29% consumer, 27% communication, and 9% computer. Distribution inventory ended the quarter at 10.5 weeks, down more than a week from the prior quarter, as well as sell-through exceeded sell-in by about $12 million.

工業和消費者收入較上一季分別下降約 20%，同樣受到供應鏈庫存增加和需求疲軟的推動。本季的收入結構為 35% 工業、29% 消費、27% 通訊和 9% 電腦。本季末的分銷庫存為 10.5 週，比上一季減少了一周多，銷售量超出了銷售量約 1,200 萬美元。

Non-GAAP gross margin for the fourth quarter was 52.7%, down 60 basis points from the prior quarter, driven mainly by lower manufacturing volumes, partially offset by a more favorable end market mix. Non-GAAP operating expenses for the quarter were $40.3 million, down $1.5 million sequentially and below our forecast as we continue to manage spending carefully, while prioritizing investments in our long-term growth.

非公認會計原則第四季毛利率為 52.7%，較上一季下降 60 個基點，主要是由於製造量下降，但部分被更有利的終端市場組合所抵消。本季非 GAAP 營運費用為 4,030 萬美元，比上一季減少 150 萬美元，低於我們的預測，因為我們繼續謹慎管理支出，同時優先考慮對長期成長的投資。

As noted earlier, we recognize the tax benefit in the fourth quarter from the reversal of FIN 48 reserves, which contributed about $0.04 cents to the non-GAAP earnings per share of $0.22. The FIN 48 reversal had a larger effect on GAAP results resulting in a negative GAAP tax rate for the quarter and GAAP earnings of $0.25 per diluted share. Weighted average share count fell by about 0.5 million shares to 57.3 million, driven by repurchases.

如前所述，我們認識到第四季度 FIN 48 儲備金逆轉帶來的稅收優惠，為非 GAAP 每股收益 0.22 美元貢獻了約 0.04 美分。 FIN 48 的逆轉對 GAAP 業績產生了較大影響，導致該季度 GAAP 稅率為負，稀釋後每股 GAAP 收益為 0.25 美元。受回購推動，加權平均股數減少約 50 萬股，至 5,730 萬股。

Cash flow from operations for the quarter was $16.3 million. Inventory days were at 344 at quarter end, up 114 days from the prior quarter, driven largely by the lower revenue number. As a reminder, the bulk of inventory is held in wafers, which combined with the fungibility of our products across customers and applications, results in minimal risk of obsolescence. We expect inventory days to trend down as revenue starts to recover in the June quarter.

本季營運現金流為 1,630 萬美元。季末庫存天數為 344 天，比上一季增加 114 天，這主要是由於收入數字下降所致。需要提醒的是，大部分庫存都保存在晶圓中，再加上我們的產品在客戶和應用中的可互換性，可以將過時的風險降至最低。我們預計，隨著第二季營收開始復甦，庫存天數將呈下降趨勢。

Our largest use of cash in the fourth quarter was share buybacks. We repurchased 680,000 shares during the quarter, well above 1% of our shares outstanding, for $47.4 million. The average price per share was just under $70. Other uses of cash during the quarter included $6 million for CapEx and $11 million for dividends. For the year, cash flow from operations was $66 million, while CapEx was $21 million, just below our model of 5% to 7% of sales. We returned $99 million to stockholders in the form of buybacks and dividends during the year, more than twice our free cash flow.

第四季我們最大的現金用途是股票回購。本季我們以 4,740 萬美元的價格回購了 680,000 股股票，遠高於已發行股票的 1%。每股平均價格略低於 70 美元。本季的其他現金用途包括 600 萬美元的資本支出和 1,100 萬美元的股息。今年，營運現金流為 6,600 萬美元，資本支出為 2,100 萬美元，略低於我們佔銷售額 5% 至 7% 的模型。這一年裡，我們以回購和股利的形式向股東返還了 9,900 萬美元，是我們自由現金流的兩倍多。

Turning to the outlook, we expect revenues for the first quarter to be $90 million, plus or minus $5 million. We expect sell-through to again exceed sell-in, resulting in another decrease in channel inventory and clearing the way for sequential growth in the June quarter.

談到前景，我們預計第一季營收為 9,000 萬美元，上下浮動 500 萬美元。我們預計銷售量將再次超過銷售量，從而導致通路庫存再次減少，並為六月季度的環比增長掃清道路。

Non-GAAP gross margin for Q1 should be approximately 52.5%. I expect a rebound in gross margin in the June quarter, driven by the favorable yen exchange rate and higher manufacturing utilization as we begin to convert more wafers to finished goods. I also expect a better mix as the industrial and consumer markets begin to recover.

第一季非 GAAP 毛利率應約為 52.5%。我預計，在有利的日圓匯率和隨著我們開始將更多晶圓轉化為成品而提高的製造利用率的推動下，六月季度的毛利率將出現反彈。隨著工業和消費市場開始復甦，我還預期會出現更好的組合。

Non-GAAP operating expenses should be around $42.5 million in the first quarter. The increase from the fourth quarter reflects headcount increases, resumption of FICA taxes, and higher premiums for employee benefits. For the full year, I expect non-GAAP OpEx growth to be in the high single-digits. Finally, I expect the non-GAAP effective tax rate for the first quarter and the year to be around 7%.

第一季非 GAAP 營運費用應約為 4,250 萬美元。較第四季度的成長反映了員工人數的增加、FICA 稅的恢復以及員工福利保費的增加。對於全年，我預計非 GAAP 營運支出成長將達到較高的個位數。最後，我預計第一季和全年的非 GAAP 有效稅率約為 7%。

Now, Alfredo, let's begin the Q&A.

現在，阿爾弗雷多，讓我們開始問答。

(Operator Instructions) Christopher Rolland, Susquehanna.

（操作員說明）克里斯多福羅蘭，薩斯奎哈納。

I guess maybe looking into next quarter, if you guys could kind of illuminate inventories, how you see the dynamic per end market playing out. And I don't know if you want to force rank those, what's -- versus flat, what's up or down would be great.

我想也許看看下個季度，如果你們能說明一下庫存，你們如何看待動態的終端市場的發展。我不知道你是否想強制對這些進行排名，與持平相比，上升或下降會很棒。

As we had indicated, the overall channel inventory came down about 10.5 weeks, but the highlight was that the consumer and the computer segment came down to what I'd call normal levels. We are still a little elevated in industrial. And considering that the revenue is at normal levels based on this current level of revenues, which bodes really well for what it looks like, as I've mentioned about the consumer segment in the second quarter and further going forward. So I expect the channel inventories to further come down and be below 10 weeks at the end of the first quarter.

正如我們所指出的，整體通路庫存下降了約 10.5 週，但重點是消費者和電腦領域下降到了我所說的正常水平。我們的工業水準還稍高一些。考慮到基於目前的收入水平，收入處於正常水平，這對於它的外觀來說確實是個好兆頭，正如我在第二季度和未來的消費者細分市場中提到的那樣。因此我預計渠道庫存將進一步下降，並在第一季末低於10週。

No, I was actually talking about the end markets. Where do you have the most inventory? Or how do these dynamics play out into March? And then force rank versus flat, which might be up and which might be down in March?

不，我實際上是在談論終端市場。哪裡的庫存最多？或者這些動態在三月會如何發揮？然後強制排名與持平，三月份哪一個可能上升，哪一個可能下降？

Chris, that's what I was talking about, that the channel inventory, that's where our guidance is: what's in the channel and what's, as a result, is probably getting impacted with the customers. That consumer and consumer category are down to normal levels in the channel, which means things in the end state has become normal, while industrial is still very elevated and is above the level and that's as a result. What I also tried to mention was that considering it's at a such low level, and if consumer and [computer] are already in the channel at that level, as revenue increases, it actually will become even much below our level.

克里斯，這就是我所說的，渠道庫存，這就是我們的指導：渠道中的內容以及結果可能會受到客戶的影響。消費者和消費類別在通路中下降到正常水平，這意味著最終狀態已經變得正常，而工業仍然很高並且高於水平，這就是結果。我還試圖提到的是，考慮到它處於如此低的水平，如果消費者和[計算機]已經處於該水平的渠道中，隨著收入的增加，它實際上會變得遠低於我們的水平。

You have to remember that, by weeks, if you're normal -- in dollar terms, we are well below normal because our weeks are based on a $90-million revenue. As revenue grows, it is really problematic for the customer if it is that low. They have to buy products, which is good for us.

你必須記住，如果你是正常人的話，按週計算——以美元計算，我們遠低於正常水平，因為我們週的收入是基於 9000 萬美元的收入。隨著收入的成長，如果收入這麼低，對客戶來說確實是個問題。他們必須購買產品，這對我們有好處。

Okay, yeah, I hear you. Maybe something on capital allocation. So nice buybacks in the quarter. Sandeep, I think if this chip thing doesn't work for, you can be a day trader. But what are you guys doing on the capital allocation front? More buybacks at this level, if you could? And/or would you entertain something like M&A? Have you looked at that? How are you feeling on this, particularly for the cyclical bottom?

好的，是的，我聽到了。也許是關於資本配置的事情。本季的回購非常好。桑迪普，我認為如果這個晶片不起作用，你可以成為日內交易者。但是你們在資本配置方面正在做什麼呢？如果可以的話，在這個水平上進行更多回購？和/或您會考慮併購之類的事情嗎？你看過那個嗎？您對此有何看法，特別是對於週期性底部？

Chris, as we have talked about, we have a four-pronged approach to capital guidance, the first being the internal investments. And as you can see, we are investing in working capital as well as, you will see from the expense investments that we talked about, about high single-digit for next year, we've tightened our belt over the last few years. And we need to make more investments. So you're going to see, even though we held back in our headcount in 2023, you will see us see quite a bit of investments in headcount to support the initiatives that Balu and I have talked about, whether it be India, whether it be automotive, whether it be motor control and in GaN.

克里斯，正如我們所討論的，我們有四管齊下的資本指導方法，首先是內部投資。正如你所看到的，我們正在投資於營運資本，你會從我們談到的費用投資中看到，明年的支出投資將達到高個位數，我們在過去幾年裡勒緊了腰帶。我們需要進行更多投資。所以你會看到，即使我們在 2023 年控制了員工人數，你也會看到我們在員工數量上進行了大量投資，以支持我和巴魯談到的舉措，無論是印度，還是印度。汽車領域，無論是馬達控制還是GaN。

The second thing is M&A. And I think as we've talked about, we are always looking at that angle. And we always will look for either technologies that will complement us or which can help us expand our SAM. So that is, I think, something that we do all the time and we're continuing to look at that. The buybacks is really an opportunistic story. I presume you liked the buyback that we did last quarter and the price of it. We always do that. And it's not that we are rigid; it's opportunistic. And we tend to buy as the stocks comes back, and I think we're not going to change that.

第二件事是併購。我認為正如我們所討論的，我們總是從這個角度來看。我們總是會尋找能夠補充我們或能夠幫助我們擴展 SAM 的技術。所以，我認為，這是我們一直在做的事情，我們將繼續關注這一點。回購其實是一個機會主義的故事。我想您喜歡我們上季度進行的回購及其價格。我們總是這樣做。這並不是說我們很僵化；而是我們很固執。這是機會主義的。我們傾向於在股票回升時買入，我認為我們不會改變這一點。

And the last one was the dividend. And you know a quarter ago or so, we upped the dividend again. So I think -- we've been following the four-pronged approach now. Some things happen more frequently than the others, but it is something that is looked at every quarter with the Board. And I don't think anything will change in that aspect of it.

最後一項是股息。你知道，大約一個季度前，我們再次提高了股息。所以我認為——我們現在一直在遵循四管齊下的方法。有些事情比其他事情發生得更頻繁，但董事會每季都會對此進行審查。我認為這方面不會有任何改變。

David Williams, The Benchmark Company.

大衛威廉斯，基準公司。

First, it sounds like you're expecting June to be a bit better and we've heard that from others. I guess maybe if you could talk about what's giving you -- maybe on this inventory side, but what's giving you that confidence? And maybe if you could speak to the booking velocity across the end markets and how those are trending and maybe what you've seen thus far into the year.

首先，聽起來您預計六月會好一點，我們也從其他人那裡聽到了這一點。我想也許你能談談是什麼給了你——也許是在庫存方面，但是什麼給了你這種信心？也許您可以談談終端市場的預訂速度以及這些趨勢如何，也許您今年到目前為止所看到的情況。

Well, there are several reasons we feel good about Q2 being a growth quarter. First one is the inventory will be less of a headwind, now it's getting closer to normal. And as a result, we expect that this year will have a normal seasonality, up from Q1, especially in consumer because of the air conditioning. Consumer could even be stronger than normal because of low levels of channel inventory that we talked about.

嗯，有幾個原因讓我們對第二季成為成長季感到滿意。第一個是庫存的阻力將會減少，現在已經接近正常水準。因此，我們預計今年將有一個正常的季節性，比第一季有所上升，特別是在消費者方面，因為空調。由於我們談到的通路庫存水準較低，消費者甚至可能比正常情況更強勁。

We are at normal levels of weeks, but based on a very low revenue number. And as you know, air conditioning peaks in Q2, and we have a really good exposure to air conditioning market. Also, we see some recovery in the cell phone customer, where, if you remember, they canceled some orders starting in Q3. And I think that inventory correction will be completed in Q1. We did have a slight uptick in Q1, but we expect it to come back to a higher level in Q2. And that also helps us in terms of growth in Q2. The industrial market, which has been very soft for a long time, we think will begin to recover sometime in Q2. So that will also contribute, we believe.

我們的周數處於正常水平，但收入數字非常低。如您所知，空調在第二季度達到頂峰，我們對空調市場的了解非常好。此外，我們看到手機客戶有所復甦，如果你還記得的話，他們從第三季開始取消了一些訂單。我認為庫存調整將在第一季完成。我們在第一季確實略有上升，但我們預計第二季將恢復到更高的水平。這也有助於我們第二季的成長。長期以來一直非常疲軟的工業市場，我們認為將在第二季的某個時候開始復甦。我們相信，這也將有所貢獻。

Finally, the last one, which is probably the most important, is that our order trends are improving. January was our best month of booking since last spring. And February is also off to a very good start. Of course, the next two weeks will be soft because of the Lunar New Year. So we'll see how things will come back after the holidays. But all of the trends support Q2 being up from Q1.

最後，最後一點，也可能是最重要的一點，是我們的訂單趨勢正在改善。一月是我們自去年春天以來預訂最好的月份。二月也是一個很好的開始。當然，由於農曆新年，接下來的兩週會比較軟。因此，我們將看看假期過後情況會如何恢復。但所有趨勢都支持第二季高於第一季。

Great. Very great color there, certainly appreciate that. Secondly, I wanted to see if there's maybe a way to think about your design wins. You've had a very healthy pipeline through the downturn. Is there a way to come to think about that contribution, maybe in the next 12 to 18 months, from the design wins that you've won in this more recent period?

偉大的。那裡的顏色非常好，當然很欣賞。其次，我想看看是否有辦法思考你的設計是否成功。您在經濟低迷時期擁有非常健康的管道。有沒有一種方法可以考慮您在最近一段時間內贏得的設計勝利的貢獻，也許是在接下來的 12 到 18 個月內？

You can't directly correlate because the design wins come in many different shapes and sizes. And also, you have to remember, some of them will be replacing designs that are in production, but going the end of life. So you can't directly correlate.

您無法直接關聯，因為成功的設計有許多不同的形狀和尺寸。而且，你必須記住，其中一些將取代正在生產的設計，但即將結束生命。所以你不能直接關聯。

But directionally, it's a very good trend, and we are really excited about that. If you look at literally almost all markets, except maybe cell phones, which, as you know, is not a growth market, we are seeing significant design win increases that will bode well for the future. So the design wins will convert into revenue in the next one to three years, depending on the market. So that bodes well for the market. Of course, all of this is tempered by the macro situation. So we are waiting for macro to turn around. But the big, bright star is that our inventories, which should come back to normal in all markets by the middle of this year, which means that we will start seeing that demand as it happens.

但從方向上看，這是一個非常好的趨勢，我們對此感到非常興奮。如果你看看幾乎所有的市場，除了手機，正如你所知，這不是一個成長的市場，我們看到設計勝利的顯著增加，這對未來來說是個好兆頭。因此，設計勝利將在未來一到三年內轉化為收入，具體取決於市場。這對市場來說是個好兆頭。當然，這一切都受到宏觀情勢的調節。所以我們正在等待宏觀的扭轉。但最耀眼的明星是我們的庫存，到今年年中，所有市場的庫存應該會恢復正常，這意味著我們將開始看到這種需求的發生。

Ross Seymore, Deutsche Bank.

羅斯·西莫爾，德意志銀行。

Just wanted to ask a high level one first. What do you think the normalized level of demand is for the company, whether you want to talk on a quarterly basis or annual basis? And I know that there's a ton of assumptions underneath that and it's not the easiest to answer, but any shot would be appreciated.

只是想先請教高人。您認為公司的正常需求水準是多少，無論您想按季度還是按年度進行討論？我知道這背後有很多假設，這並不是最容易回答的，但任何鏡頭都會受到讚賞。

Okay. I think we've answered this question in the last call. Our trend analysis would show that, if everything came back to normal based on our share gains and long-term market trend growth and so on, we should be really running at $150 million a quarter.

好的。我想我們在上次通話中已經回答了這個問題。我們的趨勢分析表明，如果根據我們的股票收益和長期市場趨勢成長等一切都恢復正常，我們每季的收入應該達到 1.5 億美元。

However, it is unlikely, I believe, given the demand situation still being very weak, that it will happen in the second half of this year. It'll probably be sometime -- again, I don't know what the 2025 is going to be, but the earliest I can think of that we're getting there will be in the second half of 2025. And that's just a speculation on my part. It really depends upon demand and inventory levels all coming back to normalcy.

然而，我認為，鑑於需求情況仍然非常疲軟，這種情況不太可能在今年下半年發生。可能會在某個時候——再說一次，我不知道 2025 年會是什麼，但我能想到的最早會是 2025 年下半年。這只是我的猜測。這實際上取決於需求和庫存水準是否全部恢復正常。

I guess a gross margin question, kind of slightly nearer term and then a little bit longer term. Sandeep, you do a good job of talking about trend through the year. I know you said the second quarter is going to be up. So I guess part A of the second question is utilization going up in the June quarter seems a little odd if you just look at basically a year of inventory on your books internally, and I know days in the channel is somewhat misleading at the bottom of the cycle. But how do we think about utilization? Why are you increasing given so much inventory on your books? And what's the trend through the year that you think you're going to have on gross margin if the back half revenues do indeed improve?

我猜想是毛利率問題，有點近期，然後有點長期。Sandeep，您在談論全年趨勢方面做得很好。我知道你說過第二季即將結束。因此，我想第二個問題的A 部分是，如果您只查看內部賬本上基本上一年的庫存，那麼6 月份季度的利用率上升似乎有點奇怪，而且我知道渠道中的天數在底部有些誤導。循環。但我們如何考慮利用率呢？鑑於您的書籍庫存如此之多，為什麼還要增加呢？如果下半年收入確實有所改善，您認為今年毛利率的趨勢是什麼？

First of all, we keep bulk of our inventory in wafer form. And when I talk about utilization, yes, we do have some of our equipment at the fab part, but that's limited. But the bulk of the equipment is on the back end, which is the testers, handlers, more machine. So the converting of the wafer into finished goods leads into higher utilization, the test-outs, and that's what helps us in the margin.

首先，我們以晶圓形式保留大部分庫存。當我談到利用率時，是的，我們確實在晶圓廠部分擁有一些設備，但這是有限的。但大部分設備都在後端，也就是測試人員、處理人員和更多機器。因此，將晶圓轉化為成品會帶來更高的利用率和測試，這對我們的利潤有幫助。

But I think the bigger piece that is going to help us is going to be the yen. The yen has really moved quite a bit up in our favor with the dollar strengthening, but the funny part is that if you go a year back, it was in the 140s, then it dropped down to the 130, and then it's gone back into the high 140. So in Q1, as you turn the inventory, it's getting impacted by when it went down. But starting in Q2 and Q3, the favorability starts coming back and the yen will contribute quite a bit there.

但我認為對我們有更大幫助的是日圓。隨著美元走強，日圓確實大幅上漲，對我們有利，但有趣的是，如果你回顧一年前，它是在 140 左右，然後跌落到 130 左右，然後又回到了高140。因此，在第一季度，當你週轉庫存時，它會受到庫存下降的影響。但從第二季和第三季開始，人們的好感度開始恢復，日圓將做出相當大的貢獻。

Now we are also getting a mix benefit. As we have talked about before, we're going to see more consumer and industrial as the year goes by and less communication. For the year, I think I've talked about before, we should be somewhere in the 53.5%, 54%. That's the modeling I can do, with the pluses coming from the yen, mix and volume, and the minuses coming from input costs. The input costs are still going up, wafer and other costs. But as I said, even though I'm doing this high-level modeling, the mix is always the wild card.

現在我們也獲得了混合效益。正如我們之前談到的，隨著時間的推移，我們將看到更多的消費者和工業產品，而溝通卻越來越少。對於今年，我想我之前已經談過，我們應該在53.5%、54%之間。這就是我可以做的建模，優點來自日圓、組合和數量，缺點來自投入成本。輸入成本、晶圓和其他成本仍在上漲。但正如我所說，即使我正在進行高級建模，混合始終是未知因素。

Matt Ramsay, TD Cowen.

馬特·拉姆齊，TD·考恩。

Balu, obviously we're working our way through the inventory correction across a number of markets. Your company is going through it no different than a lot of others. And then we had a reset to the model on this call that we did three months ago and you guys kind of walked through how you plan to progress through getting the inventory down and what the model might look like.

Balu，顯然我們正在努力調整多個市場的庫存。您的公司正在經歷這個過程，與其他許多公司沒有什麼不同。然後，我們在三個月前的這次電話會議上重置了模型，你們大致了解了計劃如何透過降低庫存來取得進展以及模型可能會是什麼樣子。

I guess my biggest picture question is, as we've gone through the last 90 days, what's really changed other than you've progressed and started working the inventory down and we're closer to coming out the back end of it? But any big differences in the last, say, 90 days as to what you expected to play out? I mean, it's not fun, but it's tangible progress. So I'm just trying to think if anything surprised you in the last 90 days or so.

我想我最大的問題是，在我們度過過去 90 天的過程中，除了取得進展並開始減少庫存以及我們更接近結束庫存之外，真正發生了什麼變化？但過去（例如 90 天）與您預期的結果有什麼大的差異嗎？我的意思是，這並不有趣，但這是切實的進步。所以我只是想想想在過去 90 天左右的時間裡是否有什麼事情讓你感到驚訝。

Actually not. It's very much what we expected. We had said Q1 will be flat to potentially slightly up. But we really want to get the inventory down as much as possible. So we are happy that the inventory will come down again in Q1 based on our shipments, which is still below the demand, which really puts us in a good place going forward from Q2 onwards.

其實並不是。這非常符合我們的預期。我們曾說過，第一季將持平，甚至可能略有上升。但我們確實希望盡可能降低庫存。因此，我們很高興根據我們的出貨量，第一季的庫存將再次下降，但仍低於需求，這確實使我們從第二季開始處於有利位置。

And the only other positive thing I would say is the consumers are really coming back. The consumer market is really coming back. We can see the orders being placed by people who really stopped ordering for almost a year, little more than a year now. They've completely stopped ordering and they are now coming back. That tells us that they're out of inventory as well. It's not just our channel inventory. Our end market inventory is also cleared up in consumer.

我要說的唯一積極的事情是消費者真的回來了。消費市場確實正在復甦。我們可以看到，下訂單的人實際上已經停止訂購了近一年，現在一年多一點。他們已經完全停止訂購，現在又回來了。這告訴我們他們也缺貨了。這不僅僅是我們的通路庫存。我們的終端市場庫存也被消費者清理掉。

The consumer is in very good shape. Computer is also very close to normal in terms of inventory. It's the industrial that has extra inventory. And we believe that should come down to normal sometime in the second quarter. And we should start seeing bookings from industrial market sometime in the second quarter. I don't know exactly when. So it's not that different from what we anticipated in Q4. And I think for the whole year, we still expect Q2 to be the growth quarter and second half to be even better in terms of growth. And we think we could exit the year with a strong year-over-year growth in Q4 because of the comparison to the last year.

消費者的狀況非常好。計算機的庫存也非常接近正常水準。這是擁有額外庫存的工業。我們認為，這種情況應該會在第二季的某個時候恢復正常。我們應該會在第二季的某個時候開始看到來自工業市場的預訂。我不知道具體是什麼時候。因此，這與我們在第四季度的預期沒有太大不同。我認為全年來看，我們仍然預計第二季度將是成長季度，下半年成長會更好。我們認為，由於與去年相比，我們可能會在第四季度實現強勁的同比增長。

Matt, to the other point, to add, is that nothing has changed in terms of what we were thinking for the year. The good part is it's playing out as we wanted. Plus, other people, like, if you see what Whirlpool said about the second half of 2024, obviously, they're going to see second half, we should see better a little earlier because of power supplies being made earlier. So it's good to see the validation of what we've been saying and how it is playing out, even from an outside party.

馬特補充說，另一點是，我們今年的想法沒有改變。好的部分是它正在按照我們的意願進行。另外，其他人，例如，如果你看到惠而浦關於 2024 年下半年的說法，顯然他們會看到下半年，我們應該早點看到更好的結果，因為電源製造得更早。因此，很高興看到我們所說的話得到驗證以及它是如何發揮作用的，即使是來自外部團體。

Got it. No, thank you very much, both of you, for all the detail there; that was my initial read as well. It's really steady progress, but not a ton of things have changed, which is good in this kind of environment. I guess my second question is a little bit more specific, and it's in the auto market. I think there was some commentary in the script about the pipeline of design opportunities in the EV market being considerably up, maybe 80%, or something like that. If you guys could maybe expand on that a little bit, both the nature of the opportunities, and also if you win them, what the time to revenue could look like?

知道了。不，非常感謝你們兩位提供的所有細節；這也是我最初讀到的。這確實是一個穩定的進展，但並沒有發生太多變化，這在這種環境下是件好事。我想我的第二個問題比較具體一點，是在汽車市場。我認為劇本中有一些關於電動車市場設計機會管道大幅增加的評論，也許是 80%，或類似的東西。如果你們可以稍微擴展一下，無論是機會的性質，還是如果你們贏得了機會，收入的時間會是什麼樣子？

To be honest, we are somewhat positively surprised by the level of interest we are getting on our products. I don't think we would have expected this couple of years ago. If you had asked us, we would have expected a much slower ramp of design activity. So it really bodes well for the long term. I'm getting more and more comfortable that this could be $100 million business within the next five years. I know it has a long design cycle.

老實說，我們對產品的興趣程度感到有點驚訝。我認為幾年前我們不會預料到這一點。如果您問我們，我們會預期設計活動的速度會慢得多。因此，從長遠來看，這確實是個好兆頭。我越來越放心，這可能會在未來五年內成為價值 1 億美元的業務。我知道它的設計週期很長。

But as we mentioned, we are already in production cars today at eight different models in the market -- eight different customers, I should say. And that's quite surprising how quickly they adopted our products. Usually, the design cycles are very long. Many customers are cutting their design cycle short to use our products simply because of the benefits we bring, whether it's size benefit, the component benefit, the component count benefit, the reliability benefit, and so on.

但正如我們所提到的，我們今天已經在市場上生產八種不同型號的汽車——我應該說是八個不同的客戶。他們採用我們產品的速度之快令人驚訝。通常，設計週期很長。許多客戶縮短設計週期以使用我們的產品，只是因為我們帶來的好處，無論是尺寸優勢、元件優勢、元件數量優勢、可靠性優勢等等。

And the other thing that's really surprising to me is even OEMs were historically been the hardest to address. Like, for example, the Japanese OEMs are much more open because of the value we bring to this market. And that's true with not only Japanese, but also with the European customers, and of course, the Chinese customers. So everything looks really good for automotive and that's probably the most exciting growth area we are looking at right now.

另一件令我真正驚訝的事情是，即使是原始設備製造商也歷來是最難解決的問題。例如，由於我們為這個市場帶來的價值，日本原始設備製造商更加開放。不只日本客戶如此，歐洲客戶也是如此，當然還有中國客戶。因此，汽車行業的一切看起來都非常好，這可能是我們目前正在關注的最令人興奮的成長領域。

Tore Svanberg, Stifel.

托雷‧思文凱 (Tore Svanberg)、史蒂菲爾 (Stifel)。

My first question for you, Balu. So all downturns are different, that's pretty clear, but most people [remind us] that the upturns are almost always the same, meaning customers start to ramp pretty quickly. So anything that you're seeing this year that would be different? I mean, given your inventory comment, I assume that you're sort of ready for a stronger ramp as and when it comes.

我問你的第一個問題，巴魯。因此，所有的低迷時期都是不同的，這是很明顯的，但大多數人[提醒我們]好轉時期幾乎總是相同的，這意味著客戶開始快速增加。那麼今年你會看到什麼不同的事情呢？我的意思是，鑑於您的庫存評論，我認為您已經準備好迎接更強勁的成長。

Yeah, that's a good question. I wish I knew the answer. I just don't have a good feeling for the ramp of the recovery. I know it's going to recover. We think second half will be really good, but we don't know by how much. I wish I could really give you that answer. Now, let me talk about some areas where we are really feeling good. We already talked about automotive, but that's more longer term. But if you look at high power, the renewables are doing extremely well. And so, we expect, again, another growth year on high power.

是的，這是一個好問題。我希望我知道答案。我只是對復甦的速度沒有良好的感覺。我知道它會恢復的。我們認為下半場會非常好，但我們不知道好到什麼程度。我希望我真的能給你這個答案。現在，讓我談談我們真正感覺良好的一些領域。我們已經討論過汽車產業，但這是更長遠的問題。但如果你關注高功率，你會發現再生能源的表現非常好。因此，我們再次預期高功率將迎來另一個成長年。

The HBA market, which was very weak last year, we expect that to come back strong this year. Electric meters are doing extremely well. Electronic meters, I guess, are doing extremely well this year. So there are several pockets in industrial that's going to come back, so I'm feeling really good that industrial will come back this year, even though they still have some inventory. But when they come back, we will see a significant growth there.

去年非常疲軟的 HBA 市場，我們預計今年將恢復強勁。電錶表現非常好。我想，電子儀表今年表現得非常好。因此，工業領域的一些領域將會回歸，所以我對工業領域今年的回歸感覺非常好，儘管他們仍然有一些庫存。但當他們回來時，我們將看到那裡的顯著增長。

Consumer, we already talked about. I think, there, the inventory is clean. We're going to start seeing the demand, but the demand to the extent we can measure is still weak. So the growth in consumer in the near term is going to come from clearing of inventory, not necessarily because the demand is increasing. We don't see that yet. Now, that doesn't mean in the second half, it won't come back strong. We just don't know about that. But just the inventory alone clearing up will help us grow nicely in that market.

消費者，我們已經討論過。我認為，那裡的庫存是乾淨的。我們將開始看到需求，但就我們所能衡量的程度而言，需求仍然疲軟。因此，短期內消費者的成長將來自庫存的清理，而不一定是因為需求的增加。我們還沒有看到這一點。現在，這並不意味著在下半場，它不會強勢回歸。我們只是不知道這一點。但僅清理庫存就能幫助我們在該市場取得良好成長。

Of course, we've talked about cell phones before. That is a declining market; we don't expect that to grow over the next few years. All of the growth is going to come from the other three markets: the computer, consumer, and industrial.

當然，我們之前已經討論過手機。這是一個正在下降的市場；我們預計這一數字在未來幾年內不會成長。所有成長都將來自其他三個市場：電腦、消費者和工業。

Very good. On GaN, you highlighted several segments of applications. The one segment that GaN could do well in, and you mentioned, is data center. But we haven't quite heard enough from [Pawi] as far as the traction you're getting there. So are you being conservative on when you penetrate that market? Do you already have traction there? Any update on GaN for data center would be great.

非常好。關於 GaN，您重點介紹了幾個應用領域。您提到過，GaN 可以做得很好的一個領域是資料中心。但就你所獲得的吸引力而言，我們還沒有從 [Pawi] 那裡得到足夠的消息。那麼，您在進入該市場時是否持保守態度？你已經在那裡有牽引力了嗎？資料中心 GaN 的任何更新都會很棒。

Good question. First of all, if you look at our SAM in 2027, if you go back to our Analyst Day presentation, we presented that we would double the SAM to $8 billion in 2027. Roughly about $3 billion of it will be GaN SAM in that year. Of course, the GaN SAM will continue to increase. And out of that $3 billion, half of it we already have products for. We have products already in the market to address $1.5 billion of it. The other $1.5 billion comes from data centers, automotive, DC-DC converters and onboard chargers, telecom infrastructure like base station and power supplies, and so on. For that, we are working on products that are not yet ready. And until it's ready, we don't engage with customers; we have to get those products out.

好問題。首先，如果你看看我們 2027 年的 SAM，如果你回到我們的分析師日演講，我們表示我們將在 2027 年將 SAM 翻一番，達到 80 億美元。當年約 30 億美元將用於 GaN SAM。當然，GaN SAM還會繼續增加。在這 30 億美元中，我們已經有一半的產品。我們已經在市場上推出了可解決其中 15 億美元問題的產品。另外 15 億美元來自資料中心、汽車、DC-DC 轉換器和車載充電器、基地台和電源等電信基礎設施等。為此，我們正在開發尚未準備好的產品。在準備就緒之前，我們不會與客戶互動；我們必須把這些產品拿出來。

Now, you may be wondering: how come it takes us longer to get to market than some of the discrete guys? Well, if you have a discrete transistor, you can go broadly in any market you want. But the problem with a discrete model is that then it becomes a commodity. You have a pin compatible device that can be replaced by anybody. Especially the Chinese guys, I think, are going to be incredibly aggressive in pricing the discretes.

現在，您可能想知道：為什麼我們比一些離散企業需要更長的時間才能進入市場？好吧，如果你有一個分立晶體管，你可以廣泛進入任何你想要的市場。但離散模型的問題在於它會變成一種商品。您擁有一個引腳相容的設備，任何人都可以更換。我認為，特別是中國人在分立裝置定價方面將會非常積極。

We just don't see us in the discrete market; it's just not the right business model for us. We have never been in the discrete market. And the way we make the margins we make compared to discrete guys is by having a system-level solution that brings significant advantages over discretes. So that means it takes longer for us to come up with the products. It's the innovation of packaging, innovation of control schemes, there's a lot of things that we have to cover when we do a system-level product.

我們只是在離散市場中看不到我們的身影；這對我們來說不是正確的商業模式。我們從未涉足離散市場。與離散廠商相比，我們賺取利潤的方式是透過擁有比離散廠商帶來顯著優勢的系統級解決方案。所以這意味著我們需要更長的時間才能推出產品。是封裝的創新，控制方案的創新，我們做系統級的產品，要牽涉到的東西很多。

So it takes longer, that's the bad news. The good news is when we come out, we have a very compelling product that can make very good margins, which is really hard to make with discretes. So that's why it takes longer. It's not that anything has changed. We did expect it to take some time. That's why we don't add that $1.5 billion of SAM until 2027.

所以需要更長的時間，這是壞消息。好消息是，當我們推出時，我們擁有一款非常引人注目的產品，可以賺取非常高的利潤，而這是用分立裝置很難做到的。這就是為什麼需要更長的時間。並不是什麼都改變了。我們確實預計這需要一些時間。這就是為什麼我們直到 2027 年才增加 15 億美元的 SAM。

Just one last one, Balu, on the automotive. You talked about the design wins and so on and so forth. But from a revenue and timing perspective, could this be sort of, like, tens of millions in '25? Or is that still more of a '26 timeline?

最後一張，Balu，關於汽車的。您談到了設計勝利等等。但從收入和時間安排的角度來看，這個數字在 25 年可能會達到數千萬美元嗎？或者這更像是 26 年的時間表？

I would think by 2025, you should be -- let's see. It could easily be, I would say, more than $10 million. I don't know exactly how much it will be. I am a lot more comfortable saying, within five years, we would cross $100 million.

我認為到 2025 年，你應該——讓我們看看。我想說，它很可能超過 1000 萬美元。我不知道具體會是多少。我更放心地說，五年之內，我們將突破 1 億美元。

I would now like to turn the call over to Joe Shiffler for closing remarks.

現在我想將電話轉給喬希夫勒 (Joe Shiffler) 致閉幕詞。

Okay. Thanks, everyone, for joining us this afternoon. There will be a replay of this call available on our website, investors.power.com. Thanks again, and good afternoon.

好的。謝謝大家今天下午加入我們。我們的網站 Investors.power.com 上將提供本次電話會議的重播。再次感謝，下午好。

This concludes today's call. You may now disconnect.

今天的電話會議到此結束。您現在可以斷開連線。