PagSeguro Digital Ltd (PAGS) 2023 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Good evening. My name is Kyle, and I will be your conference operator today. Welcome to PagSeguro Digital Earnings Conference Call for the second quarter of 2023. (Operator Instructions) This event is also being broadcast live via webcast and may be accessed through PagBank website at investors.pagseguro.com. Participants may view the slides in any order they wish. Today's conference is being recorded and will be available after the event is concluded.

晚上好。我叫凱爾，今天我將擔任你們的會議操作員。歡迎參加 2023 年第二季度 PagSeguro 數字收益電話會議。（操作員說明）該活動也通過網絡直播進行現場直播，並且可以通過 PagBank 網站 Investors.pagseguro.com 進行觀看。參與者可以按照他們希望的任何順序觀看幻燈片。今天的會議正在錄製中，並將在活動結束後提供。

I would now like to turn the call over to your host, Éric Oliveira, Head of IR. Please go ahead.

現在我想將電話轉給主持人、IR 主管 Áric Oliveira。請繼續。

Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining our second quarter 2023 earnings results call. After the speakers' remarks, there will be a question-and-answer session. Before proceeding, let me mention that any forward-looking statements included in the presentation or mentioned on this conference call are based on currently available information and PagSeguro Digital's current assumptions, expectations and projections about future events.

大家好。感謝您參加我們的 2023 年第二季度收益電話會議。演講者發言後，將進行問答環節。在繼續之前，請允許我提一下，演示文稿中包含的或本次電話會議中提到的任何前瞻性陳述均基於當前可用的信息以及 PagSeguro Digital 目前對未來事件的假設、期望和預測。

While PagSeguro Digital believes that the assumptions, expectations and projections are reasonable in view of currently available information, you are cautioned not to place undue reliance on these forward-looking statements. Actual results may differ materially from those included in PagSeguro Digital's earnings presentation or discussed on this conference call for a variety of reasons, including those described in the forward-looking statements and Risk Factors sections of PagSeguro Digital's most recent annual report on Form 20-F and other filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, which are available on PagSeguro Digital's Investor Relations website at investors.pagbank.com.

儘管 PagSeguro Digital 認為，鑑於當前可用信息，這些假設、預期和預測是合理的，但請注意不要過分依賴這些前瞻性陳述。由於多種原因，包括PagSeguro Digital 最新20-F 年度報告的前瞻性陳述和風險因素部分中描述的內容，實際結果可能與PagSeguro Digital 的收益演示中包含的或本次電話會議中討論的結果存在重大差異以及向美國證券交易委員會提交的其他文件，這些文件可在 PagSeguro Digital 的投資者關係網站 Investors.pagbank.com 上獲取。

Finally, I would like to remind you that during this conference call, the company may discuss some non-GAAP measures, including those disclosed in the presentation. We present non-GAAP measures when we believe that the additional information is useful and meaningful to investors. The presentation of this non-GAAP financial information, which is not prepared under any comprehensive set of accounting rules or principles is not intended to be considered separately from or as a substitute for our financial information prepared and presented in accordance with IFRS as issued by the IASB.

最後，我想提醒您，在本次電話會議期間，公司可能會討論一些非公認會計準則措施，包括演示中披露的措施。當我們認為附加信息對投資者有用且有意義時，我們會提出非公認會計準則衡量標準。本非公認會計準則財務信息的列報並非根據任何全面的會計規則或原則編制，不應單獨考慮或替代我們根據國際財務報告準則編制和列報的財務信息國際會計準則理事會。

For more details, the foregoing non-GAAP measures and the reconciliation of these financial measures to the most directly comparable IFRS measures are presented in the last page of this webcast presentation and earnings release.

有關更多詳細信息，本網絡廣播演示文稿和收益發布的最後一頁介紹了上述非公認會計準則衡量標準以及這些財務衡量標準與最直接可比的國際財務報告準則衡量標準的調節表。

With that, let me turn the call over to Ricardo. Thank you.

現在，讓我把電話轉給里卡多。謝謝。

Hello, everyone, and thanks for joining our second quarter 2023 earnings call. Tonight, I have the company of Alexandre Magnani, our CEO; Artur Schunck, our CFO; and Éric Oliveira, Head of IR.

大家好，感謝您參加我們的 2023 年第二季度財報電話會議。今晚，我們的首席執行官 Alexandre Magnani 陪伴著我。 Artur Schunck，我們的首席財務官；以及 IR 主管 Áric Oliveira。

Before Alexandre and Artur share the main highlights for the quarter, I would like to share the most recent milestones in the first half of 2023.

在 Alexandre 和 Artur 分享本季度的主要亮點之前，我想先分享一下 2023 年上半年的最新里程碑。

Going to Slide 3. We ended June with 29.5 million clients which along the past years found in our comprehensive set of payments and financial services solutions, the opportunity to experience a simple, safe, seamless and digital way to manage their financial lives. By using our POS devices, our online and cross-border payment platforms, our proprietary set of softwares in our digital bank, we were able to surpass more than BRL 2 trillion in volumes processes.

轉到幻燈片3。截至6 月，我們擁有2950 萬客戶，在過去的幾年裡，他們在我們全面的支付和金融服務解決方案中找到了體驗簡單、安全、無縫和數字化方式來管理其財務生活的機會。通過使用我們的 POS 設備、在線和跨境支付平台以及數字銀行中的專有軟件集，我們的處理量超過了 2 萬億雷亞爾。

Interesting to point out that it took 16 years for the company to surpass the first BRL 1 trillion in volumes, and all in 1 year to surpass the second trillion. At the same time, we have maintained our consistency and discipline throughout several scenarios such as pandemic, interest rate cycles and changes in the competitive and regulatory landscape. Still, our strategy to combine growth with profitability since day 1 led to our solid financial position of BRL 7.6 billion in accumulated net income and more than BRL 10 billion in net cash balance.

有趣的是，該公司用了 16 年的時間才突破了第一個 1 萬億雷亞爾的銷量，而在一年內就突破了第二萬億雷亞爾。與此同時，我們在流行病、利率週期以及競爭和監管環境變化等多種情況下保持了一致性和紀律。儘管如此，我們從第一天起就將增長與盈利相結合的戰略使我們的財務狀況穩健，累計淨利潤達 76 億雷亞爾，淨現金餘額超過 100 億雷亞爾。

We kicked off August with S&P Global attributing the highest rating in the local scale, brAAA to Banco Seguro, our subsidiary responsible for the issuance of PagBank certificate of deposits, one of our competitive strengths in our funding strategy. I would like to take advantage to reinforce our commitment to our mission to make easier the financial lives of Brazilians by offering a one-stop shop solution through one app, one internet banking and one customer care center.

8 月伊始，我們的子公司 Banco Seguro 獲得了 S&P Global 的本地最高評級 brAAA，該公司負責發行 PagBank 存款證，這是我們融資策略中的競爭優勢之一。我想藉此機會加強我們對使命的承諾，即通過一款應用程序、一款網上銀行和一個客戶服務中心提供一站式解決方案，讓巴西人的財務生活更輕鬆。

Now I pass the word over to Alex for the commentaries on the second quarter 2023 highlights. Thank you.

現在我將有關 2023 年第二季度亮點的評論轉交給 Alex。謝謝。

Thank you, Ricardo. Hello, everyone. I would like to present how the growth, profits and cash generation drivers behaved during the second quarter of 2023. Our earnings per share market BRL 1.18, 7% higher year-over-year. Our strategy to grow in selected verticals resulted in higher margins with adjusted EBITDA reaching BRL 849 million, 90 basis points higher than the second quarter of 2022, resulting in net income of BRL 415 million in non-GAAP basis.

謝謝你，里卡多。大家好。我想介紹一下 2023 年第二季度的增長、利潤和現金生成驅動因素的表現。我們的市場每股收益為 1.18 雷亞爾，同比增長 7%。我們在選定垂直領域的增長戰略帶來了更高的利潤率，調整後的EBITDA 達到8.49 億雷亞爾，比2022 年第二季度高出90 個基點，非公認會計原則淨利潤達到4.15 億雷亞爾。

Our cash earnings grew 24% year-over-year, and our capital expenditures was 8% lower than the second quarter of 2022. Our one-stop shop solution has been consistently attracting more and more clients' engagement. Total payment volume from our payments division reached BRL 92.7 billion and PagBank cashing of BRL 50 billion driving up deposits on platform.

我們的現金收入同比增長 24%，資本支出比 2022 年第二季度減少 8%。我們的一站式解決方案持續吸引越來越多客戶的參與。我們支付部門的總支付量達到 927 億雷亞爾，PagBank 兌現 500 億雷亞爾，推動了平台存款。

In Financial Services division, the highlight was the sustained breakeven point despite the expected impact related to the regulatory change on prepaid and debit cards in Brazil. Adjusted EBITDA improved BRL 66 million versus the second quarter of 2022. In Payments division, our strategy for the last 12 months was to focus on key segments that kept us on track. MSMB TPV grew 10%, almost twice as much as the industry growth this quarter. Our merchant acquiring business remains solid and through the combination of our superior value proposition and the broad reach of our sales channels. We have been able to grow above the market in the MSMB segment as presented in Slide 5.

在金融服務部門，亮點是持續的盈虧平衡點，儘管巴西預付卡和借記卡監管變化會產生預期影響。與 2022 年第二季度相比，調整後 EBITDA 增加了 6600 萬雷亞爾。在支付部門，我們過去 12 個月的戰略是專注於讓我們保持正軌的關鍵領域。 MSMB TPV 增長了 10%，幾乎是本季度行業增長的兩倍。通過卓越的價值主張和廣泛的銷售渠道的結合，我們的商戶收單業務保持穩健。正如幻燈片 5 所示，我們已經能夠在 MSMB 領域實現超越市場的增長。

During the first 45 days of 3Q '23, we noticed an uptrend in TPV growth to 8.5% year-over-year from 4% on the second Q '23. In an MSMB, we have improved our sales on the online channel which we expect to contribute to the TPV growth moving forward. Hubs presented further improvements in sales productivity and increased cross-selling of financial service through PagBank business account. This not only allows merchants to have access to our instant prepayment product, but also settle direct deposits from different acquirers into PagBank in the case where merchants adopt more than one acquire. This has been driving up accounts balance deposits and improving our understanding about merchants' needs, resulting in higher share of wallet. As a result, our consolidated TPV per merchant went up 15% year-over-year.

在 23 年第三季度的前 45 天內，我們注意到 TPV 同比增長率從 23 年第二季度的 4% 上升至 8.5%。在中小企業中，我們提高了在線渠道的銷售，我們預計這將為冠捷的未來增長做出貢獻。 Hubs 展示了銷售效率的進一步提高以及通過 PagBank 企業賬戶增加的金融服務交叉銷售。這不僅允許商戶使用我們的即時預付款產品，而且在商戶採用多個收單的情況下，還可以將不同收單機構的直接存款結算到 PagBank。這推動了賬戶餘額存款的增加，並提高了我們對商戶需求的了解，從而提高了錢包份額。因此，我們每個商戶的綜合 TPV 同比增長了 15%。

In large accounts, our developments in online and cross-border have been evolving, increasing our footprint in Latin American countries, expanding our set of features and fostering the omnichannel offerings. Through our strategy of diversifying our merchant's base, focusing on key segments, we expect to drive incremental volumes and gross profit contribution in the future.

在大客戶中，我們在在線和跨境方面的發展一直在不斷發展，擴大了我們在拉丁美洲國家的足跡，擴大了我們的功能集並培育了全渠道產品。通過我們的商家基礎多元化戰略，重點關注關鍵細分市場，我們預計未來將推動銷量和毛利潤貢獻的增量。

Moving to Slide 6, we present our client base and cash in evolution. Our number of PagBank clients reached almost BRL 30 million placing us among the most relevant Brazilian financial institutions. From now on, we'll pivot our focus on activation and principality rather than number of clients, stimulate higher usage and revenue growth per client. Our BRL 93 billion in TPV and BRL 50 billion in PagBank cashing led deposits on platform up 25% compared to the second quarter of 2022. This represents 86% of our total deposits and kept our annual percentage yields at 94% of the CDI. We expect further growth in our deposits in the next months, which may be boosted by our AAA rating attribute by S&P Global, which we will enhance our CDIs distribution among institutional and retail investors on and off platform.

轉到幻燈片 6，我們展示了我們的客戶群和現金的演變。我們的 PagBank 客戶數量達到近 3000 萬雷亞爾，使我們躋身巴西最相關的金融機構之列。從現在開始，我們將把重點放在激活和主體上，而不是客戶數量上，刺激每個客戶的更高的使用量和收入增長。與2022 年第二季度相比，我們930 億雷亞爾的TPV 和500 億雷亞爾的PagBank 兌現導致平台存款增長了25%。這占我們總存款的86%，並使我們的年收益率保持在CDI 的94%。我們預計未來幾個月我們的存款將進一步增長，這可能會受到標準普爾全球 AAA 評級屬性的推動，我們將加強我們在平台內外機構和散戶投資者中的 CDI 分配。

Slide 7 shows that our outstanding credit portfolio reached BRL 2.8 billion, with 52% being composed by secured products, such as payroll OEMs and credit cards. The ongoing downtrend in NPLs over 90 days to 14.4% combined to our tax planning allowed us to write off BRL 219 million. This amount is already fully provisioned in previous quarters with no impact in P&L. At the same time, we continue to grow our payroll book loan, which is focused on the public sector employees and retirees. This opportunity remains extremely attractive to us as our development to provide end-to-end digital underwriting allow us to give very competitive price with incremental gross profit contribution, which will continue to open new growth avenues.

幻燈片 7 顯示，我們的未償信貸組合達到 28 億雷亞爾，其中 52% 由工資 OEM 和信用卡等擔保產品組成。不良貸款在 90 天內持續下降至 14.4%，再加上我們的稅務規劃，我們可以沖銷 2.19 億雷亞爾。該金額已在前幾個季度全額撥備，對損益沒有影響。與此同時，我們繼續增加工資簿貸款，主要針對公共部門僱員和退休人員。這個機會對我們仍然極具吸引力，因為我們提供端到端數字承保的發展使我們能夠提供極具競爭力的價格和增量毛利潤貢獻，這將繼續開闢新的增長途徑。

Now I turn over to Artur for the financial highlights of the second quarter 2023. Artur, please.

現在我請 Artur 介紹 2023 年第二季度的財務要點。有請 Artur。

Thanks, Alexandre. Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us tonight. Once again, PAGS presented another set of records for a second quarter in the company's history. TPV gross profit, net income and cash earnings marked all-time high figures.

謝謝，亞歷山大。大家好，感謝您今晚加入我們。 PAGS 再次創造了公司歷史上第二季度的另一組記錄。冠捷的毛利潤、淨利潤和現金收益均創下歷史新高。

Total revenue and income grew 2% quarter-over-quarter, positively impacted by TPV growth and financial income, partially offsetting the impact on top line related regulatory change in interchange cap on prepaid and debit cards that came in force in April 1. Our winning funding strategy has led down for the third consecutive quarter, the financial expenses despite no change in Brazilian interest rate in the second quarter 2023. Our additional leverage coming from lower losses and operating expenses led to EBITDA growth of 8% quarter-over-quarter with significant improvement in our EBITDA from payment unit, which grew 18% versus first quarter led by lower transactional costs yield and also related to the regulatory change on prepaid and debit cards, neutralizing potential effects in bottom line from lower revenues.

總收入和收入環比增長 2%，受到 TPV 增長和財務收入的積極影響，部分抵消了 4 月 1 日生效的預付卡和借記卡互換上限相關監管變化的影響。儘管2023 年第二季度巴西利率沒有變化，但融資策略導致財務費用連續第三個季度下降。我們的額外槓桿來自較低的虧損和運營費用，導致EBITDA 環比增長8%，支付部門的EBITDA 顯著改善，較第一季度增長18%，原因是交易成本收益率下降，而且與預付卡和借記卡的監管變化有關，抵消了收入下降對利潤的潛在影響。

Earnings before tax also presented a strong growth of 13% quarter-over-quarter and 7% year-over-year due to the sustained adjusted EBITDA breakeven in Financial Services division. Better-than-expected financial services results led to a higher tax income rate which did not imply headwinds for profitability. Net margin on a non-GAAP basis grew 60 basis points versus second quarter 2022. Resulting in BRL 450 million in net income. Earnings per share increased again and achieved BRL 1.18 in the quarter, 5% better than Q1 '23.

由於金融服務部門調整後的 EBITDA 持續盈虧平衡，稅前利潤也強勁增長，環比增長 13%，同比增長 7%。好於預期的金融服務業績導致稅收收入上升，但這並不意味著盈利能力受到阻礙。與 2022 年第二季度相比，非 GAAP 淨利潤率增長了 60 個基點。淨利潤達 4.5 億雷亞爾。本季度每股收益再次增長，達到 1.18 雷亞爾，比 23 年第一季度高出 5%。

Going to the next slide, we would like to deep dive in our revenue performance. This quarter, we had several moving parts. In financial services, we lost BRL 74 million versus second quarter '22 due to interchange cap on prepaid and debit cards with negligible impact in bottom line, given the natural offset in transaction costs and financial expenses. Mix change towards secured credit products which have lower yields and longer durations. However, this short-term negative effect is expected to disappear as the portfolio grows and mature.

轉到下一張幻燈片，我們想深入了解我們的收入表現。本季度，我們有幾個變動的部分。在金融服務領域，由於預付卡和借記卡的互換上限，我們比2022 年第二季度損失了7400 萬雷亞爾，考慮到交易成本和財務費用的自然抵消，對利潤的影響可以忽略不計。組合向收益率較低、期限較長的擔保信貸產品轉變。然而，隨著投資組合的增長和成熟，這種短期負面影響預計會消失。

In payments, TPV growth led to revenue incremental of BRL 141 million, offset by lower gross take rate, mainly driven by shorter duration on TPV of credit card installments and faster growth in SMB over the other segments. In other financial income, we had a positive contribution related to the higher average interest rate in comparison to the same period of last year.

在支付領域，TPV 的增長導致收入增加 1.41 億雷亞爾，但被總接受率下降所抵消，這主要是由於 TPV 信用卡分期付款期限較短以及中小企業比其他細分市場增長更快所致。在其他財務收入中，我們的積極貢獻與平均利率較去年同期較高有關。

On Slide 10, revenues from payments unit grew 4% quarter-over-quarter due to carry effect from the massive merchant repricing done last year, partially offset by client mix change towards larger merchants with lower take rates but incremental gross profit contribution. As a result, gross profit reached BRL 1.3 billion, an increase of 11% when compared to the same period of last year, with transaction costs and financial expenses performances being the main operating leverage drivers.

在幻燈片10 中，由於去年大規模商戶重新定價帶來的套利效應，支付部門的收入環比增長了4%，部分被客戶結構變化所抵消，客戶結構發生變化，轉向接受率較低但毛利潤貢獻增量的大型商戶。結果，毛利潤達到13億雷亞爾，同比增長11%，交易成本和財務費用表現是主要的經營槓桿驅動因素。

In the next slide, Financial Services verticals total revenues reached BRL 242 million in second quarter 2023, 27% lower than first quarter impacted by the regulatory change on paid and debt card interchange fee and settlement term and higher share of secured credit products with lower APRs but longer duration as payroll loans. On the other hand, gross profit reached BRL 111 million, up 57% year-over-year, led by better asset quality in the credit portfolio, requiring lower provisions for expected credit losses.

在下一張幻燈片中，金融服務垂直行業的總收入在2023 年第二季度達到2.42 億雷亞爾，比第一季度下降27%，原因是支付卡和借記卡交換費和結算條款的監管變化以及年利率較低的擔保信貸產品所佔份額增加但與工資貸款相比期限更長。另一方面，毛利潤達到1.11億雷亞爾，同比增長57%，這得益於信貸組合中資產質量的改善，預期信貸損失撥備的要求較低。

Moving to Slide 12. Financial expenses closed at BRL 796 million, versus BRL 756 million in second quarter 2022. This year-over-year increase is mainly explained by the higher average Brazilian interest rate in the period and TPV growth. On the other hand, financial expenses fell in comparison to first quarter 2023, driven by our unique funding mix strategy backed by deposits and returned earnings, rising more than 70% of our working capital needs at a lower cost than market average. Total losses decreased 55% year-over-year, accounting BRL 122 million driven by lower provision for expected credit losses of credit portfolio, healthier coverage ratio and credit underwriting mostly on secured products.

轉向幻燈片 12。財務費用最終為 7.96 億雷亞爾，而 2022 年第二季度為 7.56 億雷亞爾。這一同比增長主要是由於該期間巴西平均利率較高以及 TPV 增長所致。另一方面，與2023 年第一季度相比，財務費用有所下降，這得益於我們以存款和收益返還為支持的獨特融資組合策略，以低於市場平均水平的成本增加了70% 以上的營運資金需求。總損失同比下降 55%，達 1.22 億雷亞爾，原因是信貸組合預期信用損失準備金減少、覆蓋率更健康以及主要針對擔保產品的信貸承保。

Operating expenses reached BRL 589 million, down 5% year-over-year and flattish quarter-over-quarter. This amount represents 15.4% of total revenue and income, similar to the level of second quarter 2022, despite of lower revenue levels derived from the regulatory change. Our headcount resizing and market optimization led to the leverage.

運營費用達到 5.89 億雷亞爾，同比下降 5%，環比持平。儘管監管變化導致收入水平較低，但這一金額佔總收入和收入的 15.4%，與 2022 年第二季度的水平相似。我們的員工規模調整和市場優化帶來了槓桿。

Our cash earnings continued to gain momentum, reaching a positive amount of BRL 319 million up 24% versus second quarter 2022. CapEx marked BRL 530 million, down 8% year-over-year but higher quarter-over-quarter due to the upbeat trends in merchants gross adds that required additional POS inventory levels. Still, our discipline in capital allocation and efficiencies in IT investment stands still, which we expect to result in a similar or lower capital expenditure disbursement versus last year.

我們的現金收入繼續保持增長勢頭，達到 3.19 億雷亞爾，與 2022 年第二季度相比增長 24%。資本支出為 5.3 億雷亞爾，同比下降 8%，但由於樂觀的趨勢，環比上升商戶總增加需要額外的POS 庫存水平。儘管如此，我們在資本配置和 IT 投資效率方面的紀律仍然保持不變，我們預計這將導致與去年類似或更低的資本支出支出。

Depreciation and amortization, including POS write-off totaled BRL 374 million representing close to 10% of total revenue and income, keeping the pace to conversion to CapEx levels in the coming quarters to unlock additional profitability in the future. On the final slide, our net cash balance ended the second quarter surpassing BRL 10 billion from BRL 8.6 billion in comparison to second quarter 2022.

折舊和攤銷（包括 POS 沖銷）總計 3.74 億雷亞爾，佔總收入和收入的近 10%，保持了未來幾個季度向資本支出水平轉換的步伐，以在未來釋放額外的盈利能力。在最後一張幻燈片中，與 2022 年第二季度相比，我們第二季度末的淨現金餘額從 86 億雷亞爾超過了 100 億雷亞爾。

In the past 12 months, our cash generation amounted BRL 3.5 billion, which we disbursed BRL 1.8 billion in investments and BRL 200 million in our share buyback program. Our equity position continued to increase with 56% being composed of returned earnings, reinforcing our commitment to shareholders on capital allocation and returns.

在過去 12 個月中，我們產生的現金達 35 億雷亞爾，其中 18 億雷亞爾用於投資，2 億雷亞爾用於股票回購計劃。我們的股本頭寸持續增加，其中 56% 由收益回報組成，強化了我們對股東的資本配置和回報承諾。

Now we have ended the presentation and we will open the Q&A section. Operator, please.

現在我們的演講結束了，我們將進入問答環節。接線員，請說。

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin our question-and-answer session. (Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from Mario Pierry with Bank of America.

謝謝。女士們先生們，我們現在開始問答環節。 （操作員說明）我們的第一個問題來自美國銀行的 Mario Pierry。

Congratulations on the results. Let me ask your question focused on your headcount reduction, right? You talked about operating expenses declining year-over-year due to some changes in headcount that you made. However, we're hearing some of your competitors talking about expanding headcount going forward, especially sales force. So can you give us an idea of where your headcount reductions -- which areas they impacted? And how do you think about headcount going forward?

祝賀結果。我問你的問題主要是關於裁員，對吧？您談到，由於員工人數發生了一些變化，運營費用同比下降。然而，我們聽到您的一些競爭對手正在談論未來擴大員工人數，尤其是銷售隊伍。那麼，您能否向我們介紹一下您的員工人數減少的具體情況——受影響的領域？您如何看待未來的員工人數？

Mario, it's Artur speaking. Thank you for your question. Related to headcount reduction that we did. There is only one department that we didn't change anything that is related to commercial team. As you know, we have a little bit more than 300 hubs, 3,000 people in the streets. And there is no intention to increase any people in the sales force at this point. What we did is relocate some hubs from one side to another side, when we identified that there are many opportunities in other places that we don't have the hubs at this point.

馬里奧，我是阿圖爾。謝謝你的問題。與我們所做的裁員有關。只有一個部門我們沒有改變任何與商業團隊相關的內容。如您所知，我們有 300 多個中心，街道上有 3,000 人。目前無意增加銷售隊伍中的任何人員。當我們發現其他地方有很多機會但我們目前沒有樞紐時，我們所做的是將一些樞紐從一側重新安置到另一側。

And the reduction so was related to other departments, including IT, (inaudible) other departments. And looking ahead, we do not understand that there is a need to hire more people, neither for commercial team. So the 2 downsize that we did this year is enough to our intention to going -- continuing to grow in the company for the future.

減少與其他部門有關，包括 IT、（聽不清）其他部門。展望未來，我們不明白有必要雇用更多的人，商業團隊也沒有必要。因此，我們今年進行的兩次裁員足以實現我們未來繼續在公司發展的意圖。

Okay. That's clear. And then if I may ask a second question related to volume growth, TPV growth of 4% year-on-year. We do see that the industry is decelerating. But can you give us a little bit more of a color on why we're seeing this slowdown in growth overall? Is it because card penetration in Brazil is already reaching like a mature level? Is it because we're seeing disruption from PIX? And how should we think about volume growth going forward?

好的。很清楚。然後我可以問第二個問題，與銷量增長有關，TPV 同比增長 4%。我們確實看到該行業正在減速。但您能給我們更多解釋一下為什麼我們會看到整體增長放緩嗎？是因為卡在巴西的滲透率已經達到了成熟的水平嗎？是因為我們看到 PIX 造成的干擾嗎？我們應該如何看待未來的銷量增長？

Hi, Mario, thank you. This is Ricardo. We saw that Q2 was -- we saw some decrease in card volumes in the overall economy. I think it's more related to macroeconomic variables than to the penetration of cards and things like that. Of course, if you look at PIX and if you look at the ABECS report, you'll see that debit is not growing year-over-year. If you sum debit and prepaid, you're going to see there's going to be some increase there, but it probably PIX is cannibalizing the growth of debit. We don't see cannibalization of credit. But if you look at our numbers, and we had some number on the slide here, in the first 45 days in Q3, we grew 8.5% TPV.

嗨，馬里奧，謝謝你。這是里卡多。我們看到第二季度——我們看到整體經濟中的信用卡數量有所下降。我認為這與宏觀經濟變量的關係更大，而不是與卡牌之類的滲透率有關。當然，如果您查看 PIX 和 ABECS 報告，您會發現借方並沒有逐年增長。如果你將藉記卡和預付費卡相加，你會發現那裡會有一些增長，但 PIX 可能會蠶食借記卡的增長。我們沒有看到信貸被蠶食。但如果你看一下我們的數據，我們在幻燈片上有一些數字，在第三季度的前 45 天內，我們的 TPV 增長了 8.5%。

So we are seeing some acceleration in our TPV, in the first half of the quarter was 8.5% and it seems that the worst was in Q2 2023 for the industry as a whole. So again, going back to your question, it seems to be more related to macroeconomic scenarios, people without credit card limits and things like that, then to saturation or other variables.

因此，我們看到 TPV 有所加速，本季度上半年為 8.5%，對於整個行業來說，最糟糕的情況似乎是 2023 年第二季度。再次回到你的問題，它似乎與宏觀經濟情景、沒有信用卡限額的人們以及類似的事情更相關，然後與飽和度或其他變量相關。

And going forward, how should we work? Do you think that the -- we could see double-digit growth going forward in volumes?

展望未來，我們應該如何工作？您認為我們可以看到未來銷量的兩位數增長嗎？

Well, we're seeing 8.5% in the first 45 days. I think in Q3 is going to be close to that. Let's see what we're going to have in Q4. As far as you know, from the industry, people are more optimistic about the second half. So probably in Q4, you're going to see acceleration again. I mean it's -- maybe it's too early to say, but the signs that we're having in Q3 are encouraging with 8.5% growth year-over-year in the first 45 days of Q3.

嗯，前 45 天內我們看到了 8.5%。我認為第三季度將會接近這個水平。讓我們看看第四季度會發生什麼。據了解，從行業來看，人們對下半年比較樂觀。因此，可能在第四季度，您將再次看到加速。我的意思是——也許現在說還為時過早，但我們在第三季度看到的跡象令人鼓舞，第三季度的前 45 天同比增長 8.5%。

Okay, guys, thank you very much.

好的，伙計們，非常感謝你們。

Our next question comes from Pedro Leduc with Itaú BBA.

我們的下一個問題來自 Itañ BBA 的 Pedro Leduc。

The question is on the expenses or losses front. You expected credit losses on the lease or close to 0. I understand you shrunk your loan book, but I don't know if it has anything to do with the lower expected losses, lower origination. Just really looking to review what the underlying driver for this 0 credit losses? And then also the same line chargebacks, again, rose this quarter as I thought maybe 1Q levels or have more sustained. So just 2 questions on this side.

問題在於費用或損失方面。您預計租賃的信用損失或接近於 0。我知道您縮小了貸款賬簿，但我不知道這是否與較低的預期損失、較低的來源有關。只是想回顧一下零信用損失的根本驅動因素是什麼？然後，本季度同樣的線路退款再次上升，因為我認為可能是第一季度的水平或更加持續。這方面只有兩個問題。

It's Artur speaking. Thank you, Pedro, for your question. Regarding to provisions for credit losses. As you may know, last year, we decided to shift our originations and the portfolio to secure products. Also last year, we increased a lot of the provisions to cover the NPL performance that we identify with the legacy, and all the legacy is 100% provisioned. So the new underwriting is related to secure products that requires less provisions than unsecured products. And so this is the reason that we have this almost no impact in the provisions because it's not necessary to increase provisions for credit.

說話的是阿圖爾。謝謝佩德羅的提問。關於信用損失準備金。如您所知，去年，我們決定將我們的起源和產品組合轉向安全產品。同樣是在去年，我們增加了很多撥備，以覆蓋我們認定為遺留的不良貸款表現，所有遺留的撥備都是100%的。因此，新的承保與安全產品相關，其所需準備金少於無擔保產品。這就是我們對準備金幾乎沒有影響的原因，因為沒有必要增加信貸準備金。

Regarding to -- regarding to chargebacks, Pedro, it's -- you're right that we see the small increase from Q2 compared to Q1. But something, let's say, it's not a onetime event, but it's something that is not -- it's going to be in this level for the future. It's going to be around 10 bps, 11 bps. That's what we expect for the future. So there's going to be some more increase here and there. But overall, it's going to be between 10 and 11 bps for the whole year. So that's what we expect.

關於退款，佩德羅，你是對的，我們看到第二季度與第一季度相比略有增加。但有些事情，比如說，這不是一次性事件，但它不是——未來它將處於這個水平。它將約為 10 bps、11 bps。這就是我們對未來的期望。因此，到處都會有更多的增長。但總體而言，全年的增幅將在 10 至 11 個基點之間。這就是我們所期望的。

And there might be some quarter that you have 2 bps more or 2 bps less because you know chargebacks -- you can receive chargebacks up to 6 months after a transaction. Sometimes you have this time mismatch between the transaction -- the date of the transaction, the date of the chargeback, but it's not something that is crucial here and it's not a problem that we have regarding chargebacks, it's just more variation to be honest.

並且可能在某些季度您的利率會增加 2 個基點或減少 2 個基點，因為您知道退款 - 您最多可以在交易後 6 個月內收到退款。有時，交易之間的時間不匹配——交易日期、退款日期，但這並不是至關重要的事情，也不是我們在退款方面遇到的問題，老實說，這只是更多的變化。

Our next question comes from Jorge Kuri with Morgan Stanley.

我們的下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的豪爾赫·庫裡。

I wanted to ask about the take rate contraction during the quarter. If you can walk us through what exactly drove the contraction? And how is third quarter moving along relative to that second quarter print that we saw today? And then the second part of my question is what are you seeing in terms of price changes for prepayment rates now that the Central Bank started the easing cycle, you were a bit guarded in the first quarter conference call, saying that you would benefit from falling rates, but that the elasticity would probably be tested by aggressive price competition. And so curious to see if you are seeing anything positive or negative so far.

我想詢問本季度的採取率收縮情況。您能否向我們介紹一下到底是什麼推動了經濟收縮？相對於我們今天看到的第二季度業績，第三季度進展如何？然後我的問題的第二部分是，既然央行開始了寬鬆週期，您對預付款利率的價格變化有何看法，您在第一季度的電話會議上有點謹慎，說您將從下降中受益率，但彈性可能會受到激烈的價格競爭的考驗。我很想知道到目前為止你是否看到了任何積極或消極的東西。

Jorge, thank you for your question. Good to hear you. I will start with the second question, and then Artur can answer the first one.

豪爾赫，謝謝你的提問。很高興聽到你的聲音。我將從第二個問題開始，然後阿圖爾可以回答第一個問題。

Regarding prepayments, we didn't see any pressure in terms of prepayment rates at this point. Of course, we have a small -- a very small part of our TPV, where prepayments are related to the base interest rate of the economy, it's related to CDI. So once CDI goes down for these clients, rates goes down automatically, but that's a very, very small part of our TPV.

關於預付款，我們目前沒有看到預付款率方面有任何壓力。當然，我們的 TPV 中有一小部分，其中預付款與經濟的基本利率相關，它與 CDI 相關。因此，一旦這些客戶的 CDI 下降，費率就會自動下降，但這只是我們 TPV 的非常非常小的一部分。

For the other part, we didn't change our price. We don't see movements from competition decreasing price at this point. And remember that we had this decrease from 13.75% to 13.25%, so although it's 50 bps, it's not something that I think is, let's say, structure for people to start changing the price at this point. So we don't see -- if the rates keeps falling down if some competitors will start decreasing prices. As we said before, we don't plan to be the first one to keep decreasing prices. We try to keep the prices alive that we have as long as we can.

對於另一部分，我們沒有改變價格。目前我們認為競爭不會導致價格下降。請記住，我們的價格從 13.75% 下降到 13.25%，所以儘管是 50 個基點，但我認為這並不是人們此時開始改變價格的結構。因此，我們看不到——如果一些競爭對手開始降低價格，費率會持續下降。正如我們之前所說，我們不打算成為第一個不斷降價的人。我們盡力保持現有的價格。

But of course, we're going to evaluate and look what the competitors are doing. But at this point, we didn't see pressure. Looking to the end of the year, the basic interest rates expect to come to around 11.75% or 12%. And for next year, around 9%, 9.5%. So we'll keep following the movements of competitors. But going back to your question, at this point, we don't see pressures for prepayment rate decrease yet. So let's see. And Artur, would you like to take the first one?

但當然，我們將評估並觀察競爭對手在做什麼。但此時，我們並沒有看到壓力。展望年底，基本利率預計在11.75%或12%左右。明年大約是 9%、9.5%。所以我們會持續關注競爭對手的動向。但回到你的問題，目前我們還沒有看到提前還款率下降的壓力。那麼讓我們看看。阿圖爾，你想拿第一個嗎？

Yes. Jorge, good to talk to you. Thank you for your question. And related to this take rate, there are many moving parts, and we decided to include a slide, Slide 9 in the presentation that shows everyone what -- the most clear way to show to everyone that there are moving parts and those moving parts related to Financial Services division and also payments.

是的。豪爾赫，很高興與你交談。謝謝你的問題。與此轉化率相關的是，有許多活動部件，我們決定在演示文稿中添加一張幻燈片（幻燈片9），向每個人展示什麼——以最清晰的方式向每個人展示存在活動部件以及與這些活動部件相關的內容金融服務部門和支付部門。

In financial divisions, as you know, in April 1, we start the interchange cap on prepaid cards and debit cards that affected our revenues in Financial Services division. On top of that, we decided to change the underwriting and also the portfolio from unsecured products to secure products that present a lower yield but longer durations, better for engagement to the clients when we move our originations to payroll loans that also reduce the level of revenue that we have in financial services, but with lower expected credit losses.

如您所知，在金融部門，我們於 4 月 1 日開始對預付卡和借記卡實行互換上限，這影響了我們金融服務部門的收入。最重要的是，我們決定將承保和投資組合從無擔保產品更改為收益率較低但期限較長的有擔保產品，當我們將起源轉向工資貸款時，可以更好地與客戶互動，這也降低了工資水平我們在金融服務領域擁有的收入，但預期信貸損失較低。

In terms of payments, we have a positive effect of our TPV growing 4% year-over-year. That resulted in BRL 141 million of revenues. However, we saw that in the second quarter, we had shorter duration on TPV credit card installments, reducing the number of installments that affected our take rates because as we have less installments, we have less take rate. And also, we continue to change the client mix in payments to SMB clients that has lower take rates, but good contribution in terms of gross profit and EBITDA. On top of that, we have this BRL 22 million in other financial income that also contributed a little bit because of interest rate in the country that was higher than before.

在支付方面，我們的 TPV 同比增長 4%，這對我們產生了積極的影響。這帶來了 1.41 億雷亞爾的收入。然而，我們發現，在第二季度，我們的冠捷信用卡分期付款期限較短，從而減少了影響我們的分期付款率的分期付款次數，因為我們的分期付款較少，因此我們的分期付款率也較低。此外，我們繼續改變向中小企業客戶支付的客戶結構，這些客戶的接受率較低，但在毛利潤和 EBITDA 方面貢獻良好。除此之外，我們還有 2200 萬雷亞爾的其他財務收入，由於該國的利率比以前更高，這也貢獻了一點。

That was very clear. And just the last part of my question was how is that take rate trending so far in the third quarter relative to the second quarter?

這非常清楚。我的問題的最後一部分是，相對於第二季度，迄今為止第三季度的使用率趨勢如何？

We are expecting a take rate reducing a little bit, not too much but reducing because of this client shift mix.

我們預計採用率會略有下降，不會太多，但會因為客戶的變化而有所下降。

Our next question comes from John Coffey with Barclays.

我們的下一個問題來自巴克萊銀行的約翰·科菲。

Great. I just had 2 short questions, which were somewhat overlapped with the last caller. My first question was on Page 9, which I thought was a great slide, and I find it to be very clear. As far as that 74%, which as a result of the prepaid interchange caps, I understand that, and I see that, that will -- I would presume, continue to some level for the next 3 quarters before it lapse. Regarding the 171, which you're getting from the shorter duration on TPV for credit card installments, could you give me some thoughts about when that lapse. Is that something that we should also expect for 3 quarters? Or have we seen this already in the past couple of quarters, and we should see that impact diminish.

偉大的。我只有兩個簡短的問題，與最後一個來電者有些重疊。我的第一個問題是在第 9 頁，我認為這是一張很棒的幻燈片，而且我發現它非常清晰。至於 74%，這是預付費交換上限的結果，我理解這一點，並且我認為，這將在未來 3 個季度繼續保持在一定水平，然後才會失效。關於 171，您從 TPV 信用卡分期付款的較短期限中獲得，您能否給我一些關於該失效時間的想法。這是否也是我們對 3 個季度的預期？或者我們在過去幾個季度已經看到了這種情況，並且我們應該看到這種影響正在減弱。

And my second question is if we do see 50 -- 350 basis point declines in the SELIC over the course of 2023. How should we think about the different puts and takes on your P&L because you already seem able to mitigate the effects of SELIC increases just due to your strong balance sheet, how can you take advantage of this if you start to see these interest rate declines?

我的第二個問題是，如果我們確實看到 SELIC 在 2023 年期間下降 50 - 350 個基點。我們應該如何考慮 P&L 上的不同看跌期權和承擔期權，因為您似乎已經能夠減輕 SELIC 增加的影響僅僅由於您的資產負債表強勁，如果您開始看到利率下降，您如何利用這一點？

Hi, John, thank you for the question. I'll start backwards here. If -- just to give a sensitivity analysis here for every 100 bps decrease in SELIC, if we did not change the price and keep the same capital structure and client mix, I mean, all variables equal. We're going to have something like close to BRL 1,200 million EBIT benefit. For over 100 bps for 1 year, if everything else keeps the same. So of course, we cannot predict how it's going to be the other variables because you cannot control. And let's say, if the client mix changes a little bit or if competitors start decreasing price and you may respond a little bit. We don't know how it's going to be the size of our response and things like that. But everything else equal, it's going to be BRL 200 million, around BRL 200 million EBT for every 100 bps. So that's the sensitivity to give a sense how is the P&L related to the SELIC.

嗨，約翰，謝謝你的提問。我將從這裡開始。如果——只是為了對 SELIC 每下降 100 個基點進行敏感性分析，如果我們不改變價格並保持相同的資本結構和客戶組合，我的意思是，所有變量都相同。我們將獲得接近 12 億雷亞爾的息稅前利潤收益。如果其他一切保持不變，則一年內超過 100 個基點。當然，我們無法預測其他變量將如何變化，因為你無法控制。假設，如果客戶組合發生了一些變化，或者競爭對手開始降低價格，您可能會做出一些反應。我們不知道我們的反應大小以及類似的事情會如何。但在其他條件相同的情況下，每 100 個基點將獲得 2 億雷亞爾，即約 2 億雷亞爾的息稅前利潤。因此，這就是了解損益與 SELIC 之間關係的敏感性。

Regarding the order 171, that's something that may happen in some quarter, maybe the next quarter is going to be better. What we saw here is that the duration went down a little bit. But let's say, in Q4, when you have some people using more debit, but we also have some people buy like holiday gifts and things like that, the duration could go up. So it's hard for you -- for us to predict to say to you that 171 will keep going down in Q3 and in Q4. We are just putting here what happened in this quarter. It doesn't mean it's going to happen in following quarters. And also important to say that for the whole analysis for the P&L, so to say, we should look at the financial expenses and also the financial income because at the end of the day, what is the net of these 2 lines, the financial income, minus financial expenses, and here, we are just talking about the financial income in this Slide 9. Just we're explaining only the revenue part of the P&L. So I don't know if it's clear for you or if you need any clarification.

關於171號訂單，這可能會在某個季度發生，也許下個季度會更好。我們在這裡看到的是持續時間略有下降。但是，假設在第四季度，當有些人使用更多藉記卡時，但我們也有一些人購買節日禮物之類的東西，期限可能會延長。因此，我們很難預測 171 會在第三季度和第四季度繼續下降。我們只是把本季度發生的事情放在這裡。這並不意味著它會在接下來的幾個季度發生。同樣重要的是，對於損益表的整個分析，我們應該查看財務費用和財務收入，因為歸根結底，這兩條線的淨值是財務收入，減去財務費用，在這裡，我們僅討論幻燈片9 中的財務收入。我們僅解釋損益表中的收入部分。所以我不知道你是否清楚或者你是否需要任何澄清。

Our next question comes from Gabriel Gusan with Citi.

我們的下一個問題來自花旗集團的加布里埃爾·古桑（Gabriel Gusan）。

So a couple of questions. So maybe just a different way to ask this point about competition. So do you see any signs that competition or any other financial aspects to be more broader here could make banks not enjoy the full benefit or the bulk of the benefit of the lower SELIC in its bottom line.

有幾個問題。所以也許只是用不同的方式來詢問有關競爭的問題。那麼，您是否看到任何跡象表明，競爭或任何其他更廣泛的金融方面可能會使銀行無法享受較低 SELIC 底線的全部利益或大部分利益。

And second question is CapEx increase quarter-over-quarter. So kind of expecting that first quarter level to be more of a trend. And so what's the background there? Why we are not seeing a lower level here given the lower additions of clients?

第二個問題是資本支出環比增長。因此，預計第一季度的水平將更多地成為一種趨勢。那麼那裡的背景是什麼？鑑於客戶數量減少，為什麼我們沒有看到較低的水平？

Hi, Gabriel, I will start with the first one, and then Artur can talk about the capital expenditures. To be honest, we are not seeing big changes in competition in the segments that we decided to play, which are -- which is essentially MSMB. We know there is some competition happening in the key accounts but we are not part of that game. So we are more focusing -- most of our focus is in MSMBs. And the competitive environment we've seen in the past quarter is similar to what we've been seen in the last years, in the past year. So we don't see big changes. I know some players say they're going to increase sales force and things like that. But to be honest, we don't see that hurting us in such a way that we need to change our strategy or to change the way they work here. So competition seems to be similar to levels that we had before.

嗨，加布里埃爾，我將從第一個開始，然後阿圖爾可以談談資本支出。老實說，我們沒有看到我們決定參與的細分市場的競爭發生重大變化，這些細分市場本質上是 MSMB。我們知道關鍵客戶之間存在一些競爭，但我們不是這場遊戲的一部分。因此，我們更加關注——我們的大部分重點是中小型企業。我們在過去一個季度看到的競爭環境與過去幾年、過去一年相似。所以我們沒有看到大的變化。我知道有些玩家說他們將增加銷售隊伍之類的。但說實話，我們並不認為這對我們造成瞭如此大的傷害，以至於我們需要改變我們的策略或改變他們在這裡的工作方式。所以競爭似乎與我們之前的水平相似。

And to answer your question about how we can benefit about the selling point now. As I was saying before, we don't plan to be the first one to pull the trigger and decrease prices. So we try to offer better services for our clients in such a way they can use us, and they are not that price sensitive. That is much more -- we can see that much more in the long tail and micro clients. And we try to do that the same for the SMBs by offering PagBank to them.

並回答您關於我們現在如何從賣點中受益的問題。正如我之前所說，我們不打算成為第一個扣動扳機並降低價格的人。因此，我們嘗試為客戶提供更好的服務，讓他們可以使用我們，而且他們對價格不那麼敏感。我們可以在長尾和微客戶端中看到更多。我們嘗試為中小型企業提供同樣的服務，向他們提供 PagBank。

So I mean it's hard to predict to you if SELIC goes down, if some competitors start to decrease prepayment rates if you do the same. But we don't plan to be the first one. We will keep following the competitors. I guess, after these 2 years of pandemic and this SELIC with 1375 companies are not looking for growth at any price as they used to do in 2021. So everyone is more rational, looking for profitability. So I mean I don't think there's going to be irrational movements if we keep seeing SELIC going down. But we are going to be close to our clients to understand what's going on. Yes, that's pretty much the way that we think here.

所以我的意思是，你很難預測 SELIC 是否會下降，如果你也這樣做，一些競爭對手是否會開始降低預付款率。但我們並不打算成為第一個。我們將繼續關注競爭對手。我想，經過這兩年的大流行，以及這個擁有 1375 家公司的 SELIC，他們不會像 2021 年那樣不惜一切代價尋求增長。所以每個人都更加理性，尋求盈利。所以我的意思是，如果我們繼續看到 SELIC 下降，我認為不會出現非理性走勢。但我們將與客戶保持密切聯繫，了解正在發生的事情。是的，這幾乎就是我們的想法。

Thank you for your question. Nice to talk to you again. Regarding to CapEx, it's true, it was higher than Q1 '23, but it was lower than Q2 '22. But the good point is the CapEx that we are having right now is under control, in line with our budget, our annual budget and the reason that the CapEx was higher in this quarter was because we need to increase inventory levels because of higher POS sales. Looking ahead, what we are expecting is to have a similar or slightly lower than 2022 CapEx.

謝謝你的問題。很高興再次與你交談。至於資本支出，確實高於 23 年第一季度，但低於 22 年第二季度。但好的一點是，我們現在的資本支出處於控制之中，符合我們的預算、年度預算，本季度資本支出較高的原因是因為 POS 銷量增加，我們需要增加庫存水平。展望未來，我們預計資本支出將與 2022 年類似或略低。

Our next question comes from Neha Agarwala with HSBC.

我們的下一個問題來自匯豐銀行的 Neha Agarwala。

Can we just talk about the dynamics of the SMB segment. You posted stronger growth around 10% for the SMB segment versus the entire TPV. But should we expect a stronger acceleration for the SMB segment? Is that your focus and how the dynamics that you're seeing in that particular segment?

我們可以談談中小企業細分市場的動態嗎？與整個 TPV 相比，您發現 SMB 細分市場的增長更為強勁，約為 10%。但我們是否應該期待中小企業細分市場出現更強勁的加速？這是您關注的焦點嗎？您在該特定細分市場中看到的動態如何？

And then can we talk a bit about the long tail segment, your active merchants continue to decline as that probably you're being more selective and focusing on profitability. But when can we see this stabilize and do you see an impact from there some new players who got their full acquiring license. Have you seen any change in competition or with tone going down market, do you see more aggressive price subsidies for the POS or any other change in dynamics, which is worth highlighting?

然後我們可以談談長尾部分，您的活躍商家繼續下降，因為您可能更加挑剔並專注於盈利能力。但是我們什麼時候才能看到這種穩定，你是否看到一些獲得完全許可的新玩家的影響。您是否看到競爭或市場基調出現任何變化，您是否看到針對 POS 的更積極的價格補貼或任何其他值得強調的動態變化？

Neha, I'm going to answer your question in 2 parts. First on SMBs, and then we can talk a little bit about long tail. Well, we're seeing SMB similar to what we've seen in the past quarters. We understand that we have a very powerful combination here. We have a very clear value proposition for the SMBs. To be honest, I don't see any other company in the market with the same combination of payments and digital bank that we have here. And also, we have this instant segment that other players don't offer for the SMB.

Neha，我將分兩部分回答你的問題。首先是中小企業，然後我們可以談談長尾。嗯，我們看到的中小企業與過去幾個季度的情況類似。我們知道我們在這裡擁有一個非常強大的組合。我們對中小企業有非常明確的價值主張。老實說，我在市場上沒有看到任何其他公司擁有與我們這里相同的支付和數字銀行組合。而且，我們還擁有其他廠商無法為中小型企業提供的即時細分市場。

So if you're an SMB and you use PagBank, you can have D plus 0 right after the transaction receiver money. You have a PagBank with higher CD. So for the SMBs to understand the value proposition, we have this advantage. Of course, some of them don't understand or they prefer to work with the banks, they already worked. But at the end of the day, we think we have a strong value proposition with a very powerful combination. That's why we try to leverage and to use our sales force to sell for the SMBs and we are doing very well, to be honest. And as you could see, we are growing 10% TPV twice as much as the industry has been growing in SMB. So that's the first part.

因此，如果您是中小企業並且使用 PagBank，您可以在交易接收者資金後立即獲得 D 加 0。您有一個 CD 更高的 PagBank。因此，對於中小企業了解價值主張，我們有這個優勢。當然，他們中的一些人不理解或者他們更願意與銀行合作，他們已經工作了。但歸根結底，我們認為我們擁有強大的價值主張和非常強大的組合。這就是為什麼我們嘗試利用我們的銷售隊伍為中小企業進行銷售，說實話，我們做得很好。正如您所看到的，我們的 TPV 增長率為 10%，是中小企業行業增長率的兩倍。這是第一部分。

Second one about long tail, we know we've seen some net add losses in long tail. Part of that is churn that happened 1 year ago. So we are not seeing this TPV for the past 11 months because they stopped working with us 1 year ago, and then we are seeing churn right now. We try to always balance the subsidies that we have, the acquisition cost with the value that we understand along that it is going to bring to us.

第二個是關於長尾的，我們知道我們已經看到了長尾的一些淨增加損失。其中一部分是一年前發生的流失。因此，我們在過去 11 個月內沒有看到該 TPV，因為他們 1 年前就停止與我們合作，然後我們現在就看到了客戶流失。我們試圖始終平衡我們擁有的補貼、購置成本和我們理解的它將給我們帶來的價值。

We try not to do, I would say, rational movements, always looking for this equation CAC divided CAC versus LTV. And yes. But to be honest, in Q3, now we are seeing an increase in our gross adds. We are seeing better response for the market. we are getting more gross adds. And as I said before, in the first 45 days of the Q3, we are seeing 8.5% growth overall for the company. No new player in the market that is -- I mean, no new kid in the block, try to disrupt the market and things like that. It's the dynamic that is similar to what we see so far. Yes, that's pretty much what we are seeing.

我想說，我們盡量不做理性的運動，總是尋找 CAC 除以 CAC 與 LTV 的等式。是的。但說實話，在第三季度，我們看到總增加量有所增加。我們看到市場有更好的反應。我們的總增加量正在增加。正如我之前所說，在第三季度的前 45 天內，我們看到公司整體增長了 8.5%。市場上沒有新玩家——我的意思是，沒有新玩家試圖擾亂市場或類似的事情。這種動態與我們迄今為止所看到的類似。是的，這幾乎就是我們所看到的。

The other thing that we are always discussing here the way that we are going to measure, how it's going to be long tail and the long tail TPV is growing. It's very common here in the base that companies start with us as a long tail. And after a while, it becomes -- it goes to SMB because his or her business is growing and then it starts with 1 TPV and after 1 year, it is like 50% more, 60% more. And then we consider an SMB.

我們一直在這裡討論的另一件事是我們要衡量的方式，它將如何成為長尾以及長尾 TPV 正在增長。在基地裡，公司以我們作為長尾開始是很常見的。一段時間後，它會流向 SMB，因為他或她的業務正在增長，然後從 1 TPV 開始，一年後，大約增加了 50%、60%。然後我們考慮中小企業。

So that's why long tail at the end of the day is, I would say, it's losing clients because they are journey or they are going up for SMB. So that's why it's hard to give you the exact number, how is long tail performed. But I would say it keeps in a very healthy way, with new clients' activation, it's very decent levels. And if you look at the whole MSMBs, growing 10% in the second quarter, which is very impressive if you look at -- if you think that the market is growing like 5%. So that's pretty much -- I mean, many moving parts here, I try to answer your question. If it's not clear, let me know.

所以，這就是為什麼長尾歸根結底是，我想說，它正在失去客戶，因為他們正在旅行，或者他們正在為中小企業服務。所以這就是為什麼很難給你確切的數字，長尾是如何執行的。但我想說的是，它保持著一種非常健康的方式，隨著新客戶的激活，它的水平非常不錯。如果你看一下整個中小型企業，如果你認為市場增長了 5%，那麼第二季度增長了 10%，這是非常令人印象深刻的。所以這就是——我的意思是，這裡有很多變化的部分，我試圖回答你的問題。如果不清楚，請告訴我。

Our next question comes from Kaio Prato with UBS.

我們的下一個問題來自瑞銀集團的 Kaio Prato。

I have just 1 question here, related to your mix shift strategy on payments. I understand when you mentioned that you are moving towards larger merchants, and this is positive in terms of EBITDA growth. But what we are seeing is that actually your TPV is growing slightly below industry, at least on a year-over-year basis. And more importantly, total revenues, excluding transaction costs are declining year-over-year. So your EBITDA did increase but seems to be much more related to expenses control rather than revenue. So having said that, just would like to understand your view about this dynamic if we are missing anything here. And what is the strategy going forward in order to reaccelerate revenue tax transaction costs, please?

我這裡只有 1 個問題，與你們的混合輪班支付策略有關。當您提到您正在轉向更大的商家時，我理解，這對於 EBITDA 增長來說是積極的。但我們看到的是，實際上你們的 TPV 增長略低於行業水平，至少同比是這樣。更重要的是，不包括交易成本的總收入正在逐年下降。因此，您的 EBITDA 確實有所增加，但似乎與費用控製而不是收入更相關。話雖如此，如果我們在這裡遺漏了任何內容，我只是想了解您對這一動態的看法。為了重新加速所得稅交易成本，未來的策略是什麼？

Kaio, this is Alexandre. Thank you for your question. I think there's -- we are going through an optimization cycle since second semester last year, where we started an important repricing movement going up our price. And also, we implemented very strict risk management policies in order to control and reduce our chargeback losses. Going over this cycle from last -- at the end of last year to the beginning of this year, this slowed down our growth in the acquiring business in general, affecting long tail and affecting large accounts, especially. Obviously, moving forward, as we have of this risk management program in place and a better balance as we have went through the repricing side. And now we see opportunities to further grow in the future as we have been experienced this in the beginning of the third quarter.

凱奧，這是亞歷山大。謝謝你的問題。我認為自去年第二學期以來，我們正在經歷一個優化週期，我們開始了一項重要的重新定價運動，提高了我們的價格。此外，我們還實施了非常嚴格的風險管理政策，以控制和減少退款損失。從去年年底到今年年初的這個週期，這總體上減緩了我們收單業務的增長，影響了長尾，尤其是大客戶。顯然，向前邁進，因為我們已經制定了風險管理計劃，並且在重新定價方面取得了更好的平衡。現在我們看到了未來進一步增長的機會，因為我們在第三季度初就經歷過這一點。

So moving forward, we see an acceleration. We didn't lose focus and keep growing long tail segment, even though we grow SMB faster right now. And we see opportunity to keep it growing faster till the end of the year our TPV and consequently, our revenues.

因此，向前邁進，我們看到了加速。儘管我們現在中小型企業的增長速度更快，但我們並沒有失去重點並繼續增長長尾細分市場。我們看到了在年底之前保持 TPV 和收入增長更快的機會。

Our next question comes from Josh Siegler with Cantor Fitzgerald.

我們的下一個問題來自喬什·西格勒和坎托·菲茨杰拉德。

First of all, I'd like to talk a little bit about the potential long-term expansion on the payroll loan side of things. How are you thinking about the total growth opportunity?

首先，我想談談工資貸款方面潛在的長期擴張。您如何看待總體增長機會？

Josh. I mean, the market is very big. Our market share is very, very small. If you look what's going on in our credit portfolio, we are growing like -- in terms of mix shift, we are shifting like 8 percentage points from unsecured to secured credit portfolio every quarter. So -- and of course, part of that is because we are growing in this payroll, but it's a huge market. And our -- to be honest, our market share is very, very, very small. So we see lots of room to grow. We've found a way to bring these clients to us also through our app, through digital. And yes, that's definitely going to be a credit portfolio or credit product that are going to increase in the future. But it's huge. The size -- the total addressable market is huge.

喬什。我的意思是，市場很大。我們的市場份額非常非常小。如果你看看我們的信貸投資組合中發生了什麼，我們正在增長——就混合轉變而言，我們每個季度從無擔保信貸投資組合轉向有擔保信貸投資組合約 8 個百分點。所以——當然，部分原因是我們的工資在增長，但這是一個巨大的市場。老實說，我們的市場份額非常非常小。所以我們看到了很大的增長空間。我們找到了一種方法，可以通過我們的應用程序、通過數字方式將這些客戶帶到我們這裡。是的，這肯定是未來會增加的信貸投資組合或信貸產品。但它是巨大的。規模——整個潛在市場是巨大的。

Understood. Looking forward to tracking that progress over time. And then secondly, how are you thinking about capital allocation as we progress through the back half 2023. Do you expect to continue buying back shares at the rate that you've been buying it back or perhaps accelerate it moving forward?

明白了。期待隨著時間的推移跟踪這一進展。其次，隨著 2023 年下半年的進展，您如何考慮資本配置。您預計會繼續以回購的速度回購股票，還是可能會加速回購股票？

Josh, it's Artur speaking. Related to capital allocation, we have 3 things that we are doing because we are generating a positive cash flow. The first one is reinvesting in the company. So we are not planning at this point to have any dividends or other type of firms to back to shareholders this money in that way. The other point is changing to funding lines cheaper. So we can use part of this money to move from here and there and reduce the financial expenses that we have. And in terms of buyback, yes, we are doing every quarter some buybacks. Now we have 7.5 million shares in the treasury. The plan is to continue doing that because of the low price that we are seeing in comparison to what we expect to have in the company. So we believe a lot that this company is a great company, especially for the future because it's a solid company, a solid balance sheet, and we are growing this company for the future, not just for 1 quarter.

喬什，我是阿圖爾。與資本配置相關，我們正在做三件事，因為我們正在產生正現金流。第一個是對公司的再投資。因此，我們目前不打算以任何股息或其他類型的公司來以這種方式回饋股東這筆錢。另一點是改為更便宜的資金額度。所以我們可以用這筆錢的一部分來轉移，減少我們的財務開支。在回購方面，是的，我們每個季度都會進行一些回購。現在我們庫存股有750萬股。我們計劃繼續這樣做，因為與我們預期的公司價格相比，我們看到的價格較低。因此，我們非常相信這家公司是一家偉大的公司，尤其是對於未來而言，因為它是一家堅實的公司，穩健的資產負債表，我們正在為未來而發展這家公司，而不僅僅是一個季度。

Our next question comes from Daer Labarta with Goldman Sachs.

我們的下一個問題來自高盛的達爾·拉巴塔。

A couple of questions also. Maybe just to think a little bit high level in 2024, maybe how are you thinking about revenue growth? You mentioned your TPV growth maybe has bottomed and can begin to accelerate. Maybe take rates still coming down a little bit as you're shifting the mix. Just maybe PagBank starts to contribute more as also as you get past some of the impact from the prepaid interchange. Just high-level thoughts on revenue growth for 2024 would be helpful.

還有幾個問題。也許只是想一下 2024 年的高水平，也許您如何看待收入增長？您提到您的 TPV 增長可能已經觸底並可能開始加速。當你改變組合時，也許利率仍然會下降一點。也許當你克服了預付費交換的一些影響時，PagBank 開始做出更多貢獻。僅對 2024 年收入增長進行高層思考就會有所幫助。

And then my second question, just following up on the take rate impact from the short duration of the receivables. Are you seeing any pressure from the banks there? A lot of talks about ending revolving card and the banks may be pushing for doing less interest-free installments. Any color on how you think that can evolve? Are you seeing any pressure from the banks already offering less installment period than in the past?

然後是我的第二個問題，只是跟進應收賬款短期對收款率的影響。您看到那裡的銀行有壓力嗎？關於終止循環卡的討論很多，銀行可能正在推動減少無息分期付款。您認為它會如何演變有什麼顏色嗎？您是否看到銀行已經提供比過去更少的分期付款期限帶來的壓力？

Tito, this is Ricardo. I'm going to start backwards again and then someone can answer the first part. Regarding this discussion about the revolving credit card interest rates in Brazil, which is around 15% per month and compound is going to be like 440% per year, there are many discussions at this point with Congress and politicians and so on. As a matter of fact, the text for the low that is under discussion about this credit card was published today in the afternoon. There is no relationship or no mention in this law about installments or things like that. So we're not seeing any pressure at this point. Remember, we are a credit card issuer as well. And then we are following the discussion. We are part of the discussions with the government and regulators. But at this point, and the text of the law is focused on decreasing the revolving credit cards, which, again, in Brazil, it's close to 440% per year. But no updates at this point. I mean, everything is just being in a discussion how it is possible to decrease this 440% to a lower level.

蒂托，這是里卡多。我將再次倒退，然後有人可以回答第一部分。關於巴西信用卡循環利率的討論，每月約為 15%，每年復合利率約為 440%，目前與國會和政界人士等進行了很多討論。事實上，正在討論的關於這張信用卡的低文本是在今天下午發布的。該法律沒有任何關係，也沒有提及分期付款或類似的事情。所以目前我們沒有看到任何壓力。請記住，我們也是信用卡發卡機構。然後我們就繼續討論。我們參與了與政府和監管機構的討論。但目前，法律文本的重點是減少循環信用卡，同樣，在巴西，每年的循環信用卡數量接近 440%。但目前沒有更新。我的意思是，一切都只是在討論如何將這 440% 降低到更低的水平。

Tito, this is Éric. I will break down the question related to revenue growth in 2 parts. Starting with the acquiring businesses, we do see an acceleration of TPV growth towards the second half '23, like we shared our guidance for the first 45 days of Q3. And we do expect to keep gaining market share over the next quarters and years. But we understand that as larger market share we have, the biggest -- the bigger markets are the markets where we have SMBs and large accounts, so lower take rates. But the combination with the financial expenses, potential decrease backed by lower interest rates and our funding strategy, the incremental gross profit tends to be very compelling in '24 onwards.

蒂托，我是埃里克。我將把與收入增長相關的問題分為兩部分。從收購業務開始，我們確實看到 TPV 在 23 年下半年加速增長，就像我們分享了第三季度前 45 天的指導一樣。我們確實預計在未來幾個季度和幾年內將繼續獲得市場份額。但我們知道，隨著我們擁有更大的市場份額，最大的市場是我們擁有中小企業和大客戶的市場，因此採用率較低。但與財務費用、較低利率和我們的融資策略支持的潛在下降相結合，24 年以後的增量毛利潤往往非常引人注目。

For the financial services, we will have this interchange cap effect and during until Q1 '24. So this will create potential easy comps for second quarter '24 onwards. We also have the compounding effect on the payroll loans as we disburse upfront the cost to underwrite, but we have the compounding effect over the years. And as we keep growing our deposit base, naturally, we also have additional float revenues, and we also expect to grow our credit portfolio in the short term in secured products. In midterm, I think we are working here to further improve our onboarding end-to-end processing credit underwriting, onboarding, risk assessment, underwriting and collection to restore and accelerate the underwriting of unsecured products. So this would be the main revenue streams for the both verticals.

對於金融服務，我們將在 24 年第一季度之前產生這種互換上限效應。因此，這將為 24 年第二季度開始創造潛在的簡單競爭。當我們預先支付承保成本時，我們也會對工資貸款產生復利效應，但多年來我們都會產生復利效應。隨著我們不斷擴大存款基礎，我們自然也會有額外的浮動收入，而且我們還預計在短期內增加擔保產品的信貸投資組合。在中期，我認為我們正在努力進一步改善我們的入職端到端處理信用承銷、入職、風險評估、承銷和催收，以恢復和加速無擔保產品的承銷。因此，這將是這兩個垂直領域的主要收入來源。

Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our question-and-answer session. I would now like to turn the floor over to Mr. Ricardo Dutra for closing remarks. Please, sir, go ahead.

女士們先生們，我們的問答環節到此結束。現在請里卡多·杜特拉先生致閉幕詞。先生，請繼續。

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to participate in our call. See you next quarter. Thank you very much. Good evening.

感謝大家抽出時間參加我們的電話會議。下季度見。非常感謝。晚上好。

The conference has now concluded. Thanks, everyone, for participating. You may now disconnect.

會議現已結束。謝謝大家的參與。您現在可以斷開連接。