Nu Holdings Ltd (NU) 2025 Q1 法說會逐字稿

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Nu Holdings' conference call to discuss the results for the first quarter of 2025. A slide presentation is accompanied in today's webcast, which is available in Nu's Investor Relations website, www.investors.nu in English and www.investidores.nu in Portuguese. This conference is being recorded, and the replay can also be accessed on the company's IR website. (Operator Instructions)

女士們、先生們，晚上好。歡迎參加 Nu Holdings 電話會議討論 2025 年第一季的業績。今天的網路廣播附有幻燈片演示，可在 Nu 的投資者關係網站 www.investors.nu（英語）和 www.investidores.nu（葡萄牙語）上觀看。此次會議正在錄製中，您也可以在該公司的投資者關係網站上觀看重播。（操作員指示）

I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Guilherme Souto, Investor Relations Officer at Nu Holdings. Mr. Souto, you may proceed.

現在我想將電話轉給 Nu Holdings 投資者關係官 Guilherme Souto 先生。索托先生，您可以繼續。

Thank you, operator. And thank you, everyone, for joining our earnings call today. If you have not seen our earnings release yet, a copy is posted in the results center of our Investor Relations website. With me on today's call are David Vélez, our Founder, Chief Executive Officer, and Chairman; Youssef Lahrech, President and Chief Operating Officer; and Guilherme Lago, Chief Financial Officer.

謝謝您，接線生。感謝大家今天參加我們的收益電話會議。如果您尚未看到我們的收益報告，請在我們的投資者關係網站的結果中心查看一份副本。和我一起參加今天電話會議的還有我們的創辦人、執行長兼董事長 David Vélez；總裁兼營運長 Youssef Lahrech；吉列爾姆‧拉戈 (Guilherme Lago)，財務長。

Throughout this conference call, we will be presenting known IFRS information, including adjusted net income. These are important financial measures for Nu Holdings but are not financial measures as defined by IFRS and may not be comparable to similar measures from other companies. Reconciliations of known IFRS information to IFRS information are available in our earnings release.

在整個電話會議過程中，我們將提供已知的 IFRS 訊息，包括調整後的淨收入。這些是 Nu Holdings 的重要財務指標，但不是 IFRS 定義的財務指標，可能無法與其他公司的類似指標進行比較。我們的收益報告提供了已知 IFRS 資訊與 IFRS 資訊的對帳。

Unless noted otherwise, all growth rates are on an year-over-year basis. I would also like to remind everyone that today's discussions might include forward-looking statements, which are not guarantees of future performance; and therefore, you should not put undue reliance on them. These statements are subject to numerous risks and uncertainties and could cause (technical difficulties) Please refer to the forward-looking statements disclosure in our earnings release.

除非另有說明，所有成長率均為年增率。我還想提醒大家，今天的討論可能包括前瞻性陳述，這些陳述並不能保證未來的表現；因此，您不應過度依賴它們。這些聲明受眾多風險和不確定性的影響，並可能導致（技術困難）請參閱我們收益報告中的前瞻性聲明揭露。

I will now turn the call over to David. Please go ahead, David.

現在我將把電話轉給大衛。請繼續，大衛。

Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. We kicked off 2025 with strong momentum. During the first quarter alone, we added 4.3 million customers, reaching a total of 119 million across all our markets. That includes 105 million in Brazil, 11 million in Mexico, and just last month we crossed 3 million customers in Colombia. We now serve nearly 100 million monthly active customers, keeping our activity ratio above 83%. These numbers reflect not just scale, but deep engagement and quality.

大家晚上好，感謝大家今天的收看。我們以強勁的勢頭開啟了2025年。光是第一季度，我們就增加了 430 萬客戶，所有市場的客戶總數達到 1.19 億。其中包括巴西的 1.05 億、墨西哥的 1,100 萬人，而就在上個月，哥倫比亞的客戶數量就突破了 300 萬人。我們目前服務月活躍客戶近1億，活躍率維持在83%以上。這些數字不僅反映了規模，還反映了深度參與和品質。

While 100 million monthly active customers position us as perhaps the largest financial institution in Latin America in terms of number of customers, I would like to quickly provide a high-level reminder of the big opportunity we still have ahead of us. Brazil is our most scaled and mature market. About 60% of the adult population is a customer. 85% are active and close to 60% of these customers use Nu as their primary bank, translating into a market share of principality of over 30%. And yet our gross profit market share is just 5% as we're in the early stages of monetizing our customer base through larger usage and cross-sell of products.

雖然每月 1 億活躍客戶使我們成為拉丁美洲客戶數量最大的金融機構，但我想快速提醒我們面前仍然有巨大的機會。巴西是我們規模最大、最成熟的市場。大約 60% 的成年人口都是顧客。 85% 的客戶是活躍的，其中近 60% 的客戶使用 Nu 作為主要銀行，這意味著其在公國的市佔率超過 30%。然而，我們的毛利市場佔有率僅為 5%，因為我們正處於透過擴大產品使用量和交叉銷售將客戶群貨幣化的早期階段。

Additionally, recent upgrades to our credit models, including new AI capabilities, are enabling us to responsibly expand credit access and unlock further growth. But we're just as focused on non-credit opportunities, which remain equally ripe for disruption. This gap is our opportunity. We're doubling down, reinvesting our earnings to close the distance between principality and market share, and to expand the size of the market itself.

此外，我們最近對信貸模式進行了升級，包括新的人工智慧功能，這使我們能夠負責任地擴大信貸管道並釋放進一步的成長。但我們同樣關注非信貸機會，這些機會也同樣容易受到干擾。這個差距就是我們的機會。我們正在加倍努力，重新投資我們的收益，以縮小公國地位和市場份額之間的差距，並擴大市場本身的規模。

Let's turn to Mexico, our next major growth frontier. Mexico is Latin America's second-largest banking market, but more importantly, it's one of the most underpenetrated. The bigger opportunity here isn't just to win market share, it's to expand the market itself. Our momentum in Mexico is strong. In the past four quarters, our customer base grew 70%, reaching 11 million customers. Deposits more than doubled on an FX neutral basis, exceeding $5 billion. Our credit portfolio grew 60% FX neutral to nearly $1 billion. Revenues nearly doubled FX neutral, reaching $245 million last quarter.

讓我們轉向墨西哥，我們的下一個主要成長前沿。墨西哥是拉丁美洲第二大銀行市場，但更重要的是，它是銀行滲透率最低的市場之一。這裡更大的機會不僅是贏得市場份額，而是擴大市場本身。我們在墨西哥的發展勢頭強勁。在過去的四個季度中，我們的客戶群成長了 70%，達到 1,100 萬名客戶。以外匯中性計算，存款增加了一倍多，超過 50 億美元。我們的信貸組合成長了 60%，達到近 10 億美元。上季營收幾乎比外匯中性水準翻了一番，達到 2.45 億美元。

These are early signs, but strong ones, that our model is working in Mexico. And I'm also very happy to announce that just a few weeks ago, we were approved to get our banking license in this country, a license that is going to enable us to accelerate our growth and provide many more products to our customers.

這些都是早期跡象，但很有力，表明我們的模式在墨西哥行之有效。我也很高興地宣布，就在幾週前，我們獲准在這個國家獲得銀行執照，這個執照將使我們能夠加速成長並為客戶提供更多產品。

Between Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia, we see a wide range of actionable, high-conviction, and profitable growth opportunities. We are investing proactively and deliverably to seize them. As we continue growing our customer base and our penetration within these large markets, we will continue to benefit from the strong operating leverage of our business model. Our Average Revenue Proactive Customer or ARPAC increases towards the levels of incumbent banks while our cost remains largely unchanged at or below $1 per customer.

在巴西、墨西哥和哥倫比亞，我們看到了廣泛可行、高度確信且有利可圖的成長機會。我們正在積極主動地進行投資，以抓住這些機會。隨著我們繼續擴大客戶群以及在這些大型市場中的滲透率，我們將繼續受益於我們商業模式的強大營運槓桿。我們的平均主動客戶收入或 ARPAC 正在向現有銀行的水平增長，而我們的成本基本上保持不變，為每位客戶 1 美元或以下。

On the left-hand side of the slide, you'll see the historical ARPAC progression across customer cohorts. In the first 12 months, a cohort typically generates just about $5 per customer in revenue. But as product usage deepens and cross-sale increases, ARPAC can grow more than fivefold, surpassing $25 after seven to eight years. And this figure could continue to rise, and rise at faster paces, as we narrow the gap within common banks, which generate ARPAC of over $40 by launching new products and entering new segments.

在幻燈片的左側，您將看到不同客戶群的 ARPAC 歷史進展。在前 12 個月，群組通常為每位客戶創造約 5 美元的收入。但隨著產品使用的深入和交叉銷售的增加，ARPAC 可以成長五倍以上，七到八年後超過 25 美元。隨著我們縮小與普通銀行之間的差距，這一數字可能會繼續上升，並以更快的速度上升，普通銀行透過推出新產品和進入新領域產生了超過 40 美元的 ARPAC。

On the right-hand side, you'll see our cost to serve over time. Thanks to scale efficiencies, process automation, and sustained investment in technology, these costs have declined by over 80% in the past years and now remain below $1 per customer. Even as the business has grown significantly in scale and complexity, we expect this trend to continue.

在右側，您將看到我們隨時間推移的服務成本。由於規模效率、流程自動化和對技術的持續投資，這些成本在過去幾年中下降了 80% 以上，現在仍低於每位客戶 1 美元。即使業務規模和複雜性已大幅成長，我們預期這種趨勢仍將持續下去。

So taken together, these two trends illustrate the strength of our operating leverage, one of the defining features of our digital banking model and the most significant source of earnings unlock potential in our business. And we're very much early in this journey. The largest customer cohorts forming the just past three years, when we added nearly 60 million customers and doubled our customer base, are only now beginning the monetization curves.

綜合起來，這兩個趨勢說明了我們的經營槓桿的實力，這是我們數位銀行模式的決定性特徵之一，也是我們業務中最重要的獲利來源。我們才剛踏上這趟旅程。最大的客戶群形成於過去三年，當時我們增加了近 6,000 萬名客戶，客戶群翻了一番，現在才剛開始獲利曲線。

To summarize, while we've already reached a significant number of customers across Latin America, our market penetration remains relatively low, including in Brazil, and the opportunity to further grow revenue is enormous. The shifts from cash to digital payments and from offline to digital banking are structural, decades-long trends, especially in under-penetrated markets like Mexico and Colombia. As the category leader in digital banking across the region, we are exceptionally well positioned to capture outsized value from this transformation.

總而言之，雖然我們已經在拉丁美洲擁有了大量的客戶，但我們的市場滲透率仍然相對較低，包括巴西，進一步增加收入的機會巨大。從現金支付到數位支付、從線下銀行到數位銀行的轉變是結構性的、持續數十年的趨勢，尤其是在墨西哥和哥倫比亞等滲透率較低的市場。作為該地區數位銀行領域的領導者，我們完全有能力從這項轉型中獲取巨大價值。

That's why we remain steadfast in our commitment to long-term value creation, not short-term earnings optimization. Just as we are doing with the strategic ramp-up of our deposit franchises in Mexico and Colombia, which we will discuss later today, we will continue making significant investments aimed at maximizing sustainable shareholder value over time, even if that means accepting near-term pressure on margins. We believe this is the right approach to build a durable, profitable, and category-defining company for the long run.

這就是為什麼我們堅定不移地致力於創造長期價值，而不是短期獲利優化。正如我們在墨西哥和哥倫比亞的存款特許經營權的策略性提升（我們將在今天晚些時候討論）一樣，我們將繼續進行大量投資，旨在長期實現可持續股東價值最大化，即使這意味著接受短期利潤率的壓力。我們相信，這是長期打造一家持久、盈利且具有行業代表性的公司正確的方法。

And with that, I'd like to pass the floor to our CFO, Guilherme Lago, who will walk us through the details of our financial results. Over to you, Lago.

接下來，我想請我們的財務長 Guilherme Lago 向我們介紹我們的財務業績細節。交給你了，拉戈。

Thank you, David. And good evening, everyone. We had a strong start to the year with continued customer growth. We now serve approximately 59% of Brazil's adult population, 12% in Mexico, and 8% in Colombia. And these figures exclude [Under 18th] and SMEs, two segments that are growing even faster than our core adult base. A key differentiator of our digital banking model is our ability to drive principality. Nubank isn't just a secondary wallet for ad hoc remittance or occasional purchases. It is the primary banking relationship for most of our active customers, who use us every single day.

謝謝你，大衛。大家晚上好。今年我們開局強勁，客戶數量持續成長。目前，我們為巴西約 59% 的成年人口、墨西哥 12% 的成年人口和哥倫比亞 8% 的成年人口提供服務。這些數據還不包括 [18 歲以下] 和中小企業，這兩個群體的成長速度甚至比我們的核心成年人還要快。我們的數位銀行模式的一個關鍵差異在於我們推動公國的能力。Nubank 不僅僅是用於臨時匯款或偶爾購物的輔助錢包。對於我們大多數每天都與我們進行業務往來的活躍客戶來說，這是我們的主要銀行關係。

Our down-mile ratio continues close to 50%, one of the highest in the fintech industry globally. This creates significant competitive moats, including stronger unit economics and access to richer transactional data. Our credit portfolio reached $24.1 billion in Q1, growing 8% quarter over quarter and 40% year over year, both on an FX-neutral basis.

我們的下線率持續接近 50%，是全球金融科技產業最高的之一。這創造了重要的競爭優勢，包括更強大的單位經濟效益和更豐富的交易數據獲取能力。我們第一季的信貸組合達到了 241 億美元，以匯率中立計算，季增 8%，年增 40%。

As expected, credit card growth was seasonally softer in Q1, consistent with historical patterns. Meanwhile, our lending products, both unsecured and secured, continue to grow faster than our credit card portfolio, gaining share within the overall credit mix. We expect this shift in composition to continue over the coming quarters.

正如預期的那樣，第一季信用卡成長出現季節性疲軟，與歷史模式一致。同時，我們的無擔保和有擔保貸款產品的成長速度繼續快於我們的信用卡產品組合，在整體信貸組合中的份額不斷增加。我們預計這種結構變化將在未來幾季持續下去。

Now for the past two years, we've been sharing with investors the significant opportunity we see in secure lending. While our approach is fundamentally different from the rest of the industry, built on 100% digital originations, it is exciting now to show tangible traction, with a 300% increase in balances over the past 12 months.

在過去的兩年裡，我們一直在與投資者分享我們在擔保貸款中看到的重大機會。雖然我們的方法與業內其他方法有著根本的不同，建立在 100% 數位化發起的基礎上，但現在令人興奮的是，我們已經看到了切實的牽引力，過去 12 個月餘額增加了 300%。

Now turning to loan origination performance, total loan originations reached a record of BRL20.2 billion in Q1, up 64% year over year. Unsecured loans were the main driver, reaching an all-time high of BRL7.3 billion. This reflects the strength of our credit underwriting capabilities. As you may recall, in late 2022, we deliberately pulled back from this asset class in response to adverse credit conditions. Since then, we have fine-tuned our credit models and acquisition funnels, and today we are seeing the strongest momentum yet in both origination volumes and unit economics.

現在來看看貸款發放表現，第一季貸款發放總額達到創紀錄的 202 億巴西雷亞爾，年增 64%。無擔保貸款是主要推動力，達到史上最高的 73 億巴西雷亞爾。這體現了我們信用承保能力的強大。您可能還記得，2022 年底，為了應對不利的信貸條件，我們特意撤出了這個資產類別。從那時起，我們對信貸模型和收購管道進行了微調，今天，我們在發起量和單位經濟方面都看到了迄今為止最強勁的發展勢頭。

Credit underwriting is never a straight line and our ability to step back, recalibrate, and return with speed and discipline is a key competitive advantage. On the secured side, growth this quarter was temporarily impacted by a disruption in the FGTS Loan API, which paused originations for nearly 10 days across the market between late February and early March. Nonetheless, public payroll loans gained further traction, drawing over 50% quarter over quarter.

信用核保從來都不是一條直線，我們能夠退後一步、重新調整併以快速和紀律的方式回歸，這是我們的一個關鍵競爭優勢。在擔保方面，本季的成長暫時受到 FGTS 貸款 API 中斷的影響，導致 2 月底至 3 月初整個市場貸款發放暫停近 10 天。儘管如此，公共薪資貸款仍獲得進一步發展，季增超過 50%。

Now finally, we see the new private payroll product in Brazil as a unique opportunity to break into a segment historically dominated by Brazil's top three incumbent banks. Private payroll loans will open the door to customer relationships, customer data, and customer collateral that were previously out of reach. We are all in. While we don't expect any material short-term impact on our unsecured lending business, we are confident that the scale and the strategic value of this opportunity far outweigh near-term risks.

現在，我們終於將巴西新的私人薪資產品視為打入巴西三大銀行歷來主導的市場的獨特機會。私人薪資貸款將打開以前無法獲得的客戶關係、客戶資料和客戶抵押品的大門。我們都參與其中。雖然我們預期我們的無擔保貸款業務不會受到任何重大的短期影響，但我們相信，此機會的規模和策略價值遠遠超過短期風險。

Just like we did with FGTS, where we've become the market leader, we are building a digital-native product from scratch, using our cost advantages to deliver the best offer in the market. Now let's turn to the breakdown of our credit card portfolio. Growth in interest earning installments reaccelerated in Q1, now accounting for 29% of the total credit card portfolio. This compares to Q4, which typically sees a seasonal increase in non-interest balance due to higher purchase volumes.

就像我們讓 FGTS 成為市場領導者一樣，我們正在從頭開始建立數位原生產品，利用我們的成本優勢在市場上提供最佳產品。現在讓我們來看看我們的信用卡組合的細目。第一季度，計息分期付款的成長再次加速，目前佔信用卡總支出的 29%。相較之下，第四季由於購買量增加，非利息餘額通常出現季節性成長。

We also saw momentum supported by strong originations in PIX financing and other transactional-based credit products. On PIX financing specifically, while we have not yet fully resumed growth in some higher-risk segments as testing continues with optimized in-app conversion flows. This drove strong origination volumes, especially towards the end of the quarter.

我們也看到 PIX 融資和其他以交易為基礎的信貸產品的強勁成長勢頭。具體來說，就 PIX 融資而言，由於我們仍在繼續測試優化的應用程式內轉換流程，因此我們尚未完全恢復一些高風險領域的成長。這推動了強勁的發起量，尤其是在本季末。

Now let's zoom in on PIX financing and our other transactional credit products. This is another clear example of our disciplined approach to credit. In the second half of 2024, we saw that among riskier bands, PIX financing usage began to negatively impact NPS and reduce engagement, posing a risk to principality. We acted quickly, tightening eligibility criteria for those segments. This led to a deliberate decline in volumes and yields. But once again, we are not optimizing for linear growth. We are building sustainable, resilient value for both customers and shareholders.

現在讓我們放大 PIX 融資和我們的其他交易信貸產品。這是我們嚴謹信貸態度的另一個明顯例子。2024 年下半年，我們發現在風險較高的區間，PIX 融資使用情況開始對 NPS 產生負面影響並降低參與度，對公國構成風險。我們迅速採取行動，並收緊了這些細分市場的資格標準。這導致產量和產量的故意下降。但再次強調，我們並沒有針對線性成長進行最佳化。我們正在為客戶和股東創造可持續的、有彈性的價值。

The constraint in PIX financing wasn't lack of demand or unfavorable unit economics but our choice to protect customer experience and long-term principality. Now since then, we've gradually re-expanded access, improved in-app flows, and launched new features, leading to record high originations in March. This recovery, achieved without compromising credit quality, highlights our agility, our customer-first mindset, and our long-term orientation.

PIX 融資的限制不是缺乏需求或不利的單位經濟效益，而是我們選擇保護客戶體驗和長期利益。從那時起，我們逐漸重新擴展了存取權限，改進了應用程式內流程，並推出了新功能，從而在 3 月創下了創紀錄的高發起量。此次復甦是在不損害信貸品質的情況下實現的，凸顯了我們的敏捷性、客戶至上的理念以及我們的長期導向。

On the funding side, total deposits reached $31.6 billion in Q1, up 48% year over year and 1% quarter over quarter, both on an FX-neutral basis. Growth was driven by strong momentum in Mexico and Colombia, while Brazil saw a modest 1% decline, yet outperforming typical Q1 seasonality, which averages a 5% drop.

在融資方面，第一季總存款達到 316 億美元，年增 48%，季增 1%，均以外匯中性為基礎。墨西哥和哥倫比亞的強勁勢頭推動了成長，而巴西則出現了 1% 的小幅下降，但表現優於平均 5% 降幅的第一季季節性特徵。

We have continued investing in our deposit franchises in Mexico and Colombia. Scaling local currency retail deposits is critical, not only to fund consumer credit at competitive terms but also to generate data that powers our credit underwriting and customer segmentation models. We are very pleased with the pace and scale of our growth in these markets, as it has significantly de-risked our funding strategy there.

我們繼續投資墨西哥和哥倫比亞的存款特許經營權。擴大當地貨幣零售存款至關重要，不僅是為了以有競爭力的條件為消費信貸提供資金，而且還為了產生支持我們的信用承保和客戶細分模型的數據。我們對在這些市場的成長速度和規模感到非常滿意，因為它大大降低了我們在那裡的融資策略的風險。

Now naturally, these investments have led to a gradual increase in our average funding costs. We've begun optimizing both the design and the pricing of our deposits in Mexico and Colombia, while still maintaining strong growth and engagement. Over the coming quarters, we expect funding costs to trend down as the base matures, though we will remain ready to adjust quickly in response to short-term opportunities or shifts in competitive dynamics.

現在，這些投資自然導致我們的平均融資成本逐漸增加。我們已經開始優化墨西哥和哥倫比亞的存款設計和定價，同時仍保持強勁的成長和參與度。在接下來的幾個季度中，我們預計隨著基礎的成熟，融資成本將呈下降趨勢，但我們仍將隨時準備根據短期機會或競爭動態的變化進行快速調整。

In Q1, net interest income, or NII, drew 34% year over year and 5% quarter over quarter, both on an FX neutral basis, reaching a new all-time high of $1.8 billion. Consolidated net interest margins, or NIM, declined 20 basis points to 17.5%, reflecting the different stages of our geographies, as we will see on the next slide. In Brazil, NIMs expanded quarter over quarter and remained stable compared to the prior year. The business continues to grow with strong profitability and resilience, supported by a competitive deposit base. The evolution of our asset mix, coupled with a gradual increase in our loan-to-deposit ratio, or LDRs, is expected to drive further NIM expansion in the coming years.

第一季度，淨利息收入（NII）年增 34%，季增 5%，均以外匯中性為基礎，達到 18 億美元的歷史新高。合併淨利差（NIM）下降 20 個基點至 17.5%，這反映了我們各地區所處的不同階段，我們將在下一張投影片中看到。在巴西，淨利息收益率 (NIM) 環比擴大，與前一年相比保持穩定。在具有競爭力的存款基礎的支持下，業務持續成長，獲利能力強，韌性強。我們資產組合的演變，加上貸存比（LDR）的逐步上升，預計將在未來幾年推動淨利差進一步擴大。

Now in Mexico and Colombia, NIMs were temporarily impacted by our decision to invest in building local deposit franchises. These are deliberate strategic investments aimed at unlocking large-scale, low-cost funding, deepening our customer relationships, and enabling sustainable credit growth. It is nothing but the same playbook we have successfully executed in Brazil.

目前，在墨西哥和哥倫比亞，我們決定投資建立當地存款特許經營權，這暫時影響了 NIM。這些都是經過深思熟慮的策略性投資，旨在釋放大規模、低成本的融資，深化我們的客戶關係，並實現可持續的信貸成長。這只不過是我們在巴西成功執行的劇本。

Moving on to gross profit, which totaled $1.3 billion in Q1, down 3% sequentially, but up 32% year over year, both again on an FX-neutral basis. The quarter-over-quarter decline and the corresponding drop in gross profit margins to 40.6% was mainly driven by higher credit loss allowance and increased interest expenses in Brazil. This reflects the rise in SELIC rate, which we have not yet fully repriced across the entire portfolio.

談到毛利，第一季毛利總計 13 億美元，季減 3%，但年增 32%，這兩項數據同樣是基於外匯中性計算得出的。環比下降以及毛利率相應下降至 40.6% 主要是由於巴西信貸損失準備金增加和利息支出增加所致。這反映了 SELIC 利率的上升，我們尚未對整個投資組合進行完全重新定價。

Additionally, the expansion of our deposit bases in Mexico and Colombia, while a strategically important investment, has placed short-term pressure on margins. Youssef will dive deeper into the credit allowance dynamics shortly, but I will give you a preview. It is a seasonal effect and largely in line with prior years.

此外，我們在墨西哥和哥倫比亞的存款基礎的擴張雖然是一項具有戰略重要性的投資，但卻給利潤率帶來了短期壓力。優素福很快就會深入探討信用額度動態，但我會給你一個預覽。這是季節性的影響，與前幾年基本一致。

Now let's turn to operating efficiency. In Q1, our efficiency ratio improved to 24.7%, reflecting a 520-basis-points sequential improvement and a 740-basis-points improvement year over year. This quarter's results includes a one-off impact of $47 million from the recognition of DTA credits. Yet, excluding this effect, the efficiency ratio would have been 26.7%, still a 320-basis-points improvement quarter over quarter, reinforcing our position as one of the most efficient players globally.

現在我們來談談營運效率。第一季度，我們的效率比率提高至 24.7%，季增 520 個基點，年增 740 個基點。本季的業績包括因確認 DTA 抵免而產生的 4700 萬美元的一次性影響。然而，即使排除此影響，效率比率仍為 26.7%，仍比上一季提高 320 個基點，鞏固了我們作為全球最高效參與者之一的地位。

Net income reached at $557 million in Q1, up 74% year over year on an FX-neutral basis. As expected, sequential growth was more moderate due to the typical first-quarter seasonality, but we still delivered another quarter of very strong bottom-line performance. This result (technical difficulty) even while holding dollars in excess capital across our geos and at the holding company. This place is new among the most profitable financial institutions in Latin America.

第一季淨收入達 5.57 億美元，剔除匯率因素，較去年同期成長 74%。正如預期的那樣，由於第一季典型的季節性因素，連續成長較為溫和，但我們仍然實現了另一個季度非常強勁的獲利表現。即使我們在各地和控股公司持有過剩資本美元，也會出現這種結果（技術難題）。這裡是拉丁美洲最賺錢的金融機構之一。

As we discussed Nubank's consolidated results, as we have been doing across this presentation, it can be easy to lose sight of the performance of our digital banking business. Why? Because our reported results combine three very different realities. Number one, a more mature and scaled operations in Brazil. Number two, two high-growth early-stage markets in Mexico and Colombia, where upfront investments are still significant. and a holding company with close to $3 billion in excess capital.

正如我們在本次演示中討論 Nubank 的綜合業績一樣，我們很容易忽略我們的數位銀行業務的表現。為什麼？因為我們報告的結果結合了三個截然不同的現實。第一，在巴西的業務更加成熟、規模更大。第二，墨西哥和哥倫比亞是兩個高成長的早期市場，前期投資仍然很大。以及一家擁有近 30 億美元過剩資本的控股公司。

That's why we are now taking a moment to zoom in on Brazil on a standalone basis. It is the best proof point of the strength and scalability of our digital banking model, and it is a good preview of where Mexico and Colombia are headed over time. As you look at the evolution of our scale and efficiency in Brazil, the takeaway is clear. The model delivers healthy profitability even while offering best-in-class customer experience, wider access to financial services, and below-market pricing. And we are just getting started. There's still a long runaway ahead of us.

這就是為什麼我們現在花一點時間來單獨關注巴西。這是我們數位銀行模式的實力和可擴展性的最佳證明，也是對墨西哥和哥倫比亞未來發展方向的良好預示。當你看到我們在巴西的規模和效率的演變時，你就會明白其中的道理。該模式在提供一流的客戶體驗、更廣泛的金融服務管道和低於市場價格的同時，也實現了健康的獲利能力。我們才剛開始。我們前面還有很長的路要走。

With that, I'll hand it over to Youssef to walk you through asset quality and the overall health of our credit portfolio. Thank you.

接下來，我將把主題交給優素福，讓他向您介紹資產品質和我們的信貸組合的整體健康狀況。謝謝。

Thank you, Lago. Hello, everyone. Starting as usual with NPL trends. This quarter, 15 to 90 days NPLs rose by 60 basis points to 4.7%, broadly in line with expectations and slightly below the historical seasonal increase of 70 basis points. As for 90-plus NPLs, we saw a 50-basis-point decline to 6.5%, outperforming historical trends. This improvement is consistent with the lower early stage delinquency levels we observed in prior quarters, as 90-plus NPLs lag 15 to 90 by one to three quarters.

謝謝你，拉戈。大家好。像往常一樣從不良貸款趨勢開始。本季，15至90天不良貸款率上升60個基點至4.7%，基本上符合預期，略低於歷史季節性增幅70個基點。對於90多個不良貸款，我們看到其下降了50個基點，至6.5%，超過了歷史趨勢。這一改善與我們在前幾個季度觀察到的較低的早期拖欠水平一致，因為 90 以上的不良貸款比 15 至 90 的不良貸款滯後一到三個季度。

This allowance rose to $973.5 million this quarter, driven by two main factors, one, continued portfolio growth; and two, seasonal increase in early stage delinquencies we typically see in Q1. This dynamic weighed on our risk-adjusted NIM, which declined to 8.2%. Of the 130-basis-point reduction, roughly three-quarters stemmed from seasonal effects on CLA, with the remaining impact primarily linked to short-term NIM pressures in Mexico and Colombia, as Lago mentioned earlier, reflecting our strategic investment in building local deposit franchises in those two markets.

本季此項準備金增至 9.735 億美元，主要受兩個因素推動：一是投資組合持續成長；二是，我們通常在第一季看到早期拖欠情況的季節性增加。這種動態對我們的風險調整後的淨利差產生了壓力，使其下降至 8.2%。在 130 個基點的下調中，大約四分之三源於對 CLA 的季節性影響，其餘影響主要與墨西哥和哥倫比亞的短期 NIM 壓力有關，正如 Lago 之前提到的，這反映了我們在這兩個市場建立本地存款特許經營權的戰略投資。

Now turning to our coverage ratios, in the left-hand chart, we show the coverage ratio over total balance. This metric reflects the historical evolution of our consumer credit portfolio. Over time, as the share of our interest earning portfolio from credit cards increased, and more recently as unsecured lending, which carries higher risk, gained share, the ratio has trended upwards, as expected.

現在轉到我們的覆蓋率，在左側圖表中，我們顯示了總餘額的覆蓋率。此指標反映了我們的消費信貸組合的歷史演變。隨著時間的推移，隨著我們信用卡利息收入佔比的增加，以及最近風險較高的無擔保貸款佔比的增加，這一比率如預期一樣呈上升趨勢。

The most recent uptick also mirrors the increase in credit loss allowance we just discussed, which were driven by portfolio growth and typical first-quarter seasonality. On the right-hand side, we present the coverage ratio over 90-plus NPLs. This ratio highlights the prudence of our risk management approach, which is based on front-loading provisions under the expected credit loss model. A higher ratio here means we are reserved for potential losses down the line, in line with our disciplined and forward-looking credit philosophy.

最近的上漲也反映了我們剛才討論過的信貸損失準備金的增加，這是由投資組合成長和典型的第一季季節性因素推動的。右側我們展示了 90 多個不良貸款的覆蓋率。此比率凸顯了我們風險管理方法的審慎性，該方法基於預期信用損失模型下的前端撥備。較高的比率意味著我們為未來的潛在損失做好了準備，這符合我們嚴謹且具有前瞻性的信用理念。

With that, we'll now open the call up for questions. Thank you.

現在，我們開始回答問題。謝謝。

(Operator Instructions) I would like to turn the call over to Mr. Guilherme Souto, Investor Relations Officer.

（操作員指示）我想將電話轉給投資者關係官 Guilherme Souto 先生。

Thank you, operator. Please open the line for Jorge Kuri from Morgan Stanley.

謝謝您，接線生。請接通摩根士丹利 (Morgan Stanley) 的 Jorge Kuri 的電話。

Hi, everyone. Thanks for the call and congrats on the numbers. And thank you also for the additional disclosure. And I actually wanted to ask about the NIM in Brazil, 21.8% new disclosure. That it's basically flat since the third quarter, even though Selic rates are roughly 200 basis points higher, which increases your funding costs.

大家好。感謝您的來電，並祝賀您取得如此佳績。也感謝您的補充披露。我實際上想問一下巴西的 NIM，新披露率為 21.8%。儘管 Selic 利率大約高出 200 個基點，從而增加了融資成本，但自第三季以來，該利率基本上持平。

You have gone through the PIX reduction, which is a very high yielding asset. And in general, first quarters are normally seasonally weak for margin. So can you help us understand what's behind the resilience of that Brazil NIM? And I know you don't provide any guidance, but is it fair to say that the NIM has really bottomed and we should see a continued improvement from here? Thank you.

您已經經歷了 PIX 的減持，這是一種收益非常高的資產。總體而言，第一季的利潤率通常因季節性因素而較弱。那麼，您能幫助我們理解巴西 NIM 強勁成長背後的原因嗎？我知道您沒有提供任何指導，但是是否可以公平地說，NIM 確實已經觸底，並且我們應該看到其持續改善？謝謝。

Hi Jorge, this is Lago. Thanks so much for your question. I think you were referring to slide 16 in which we provided disclosures for NIMs for Brazil and NIMs from a consolidated basis. And yes, we did see movements in portfolio mix, especially as we'll pull back from PIX financing as we increase our exposure towards less risky customers, which would be all else constant a headwind for NIMS. We also saw Selic going up, which all else constant will be a slight headwind for NIMS in the short term.

你好，Jorge，我是 Lago。非常感謝您的提問。我認為您指的是第 16 張幻燈片，其中我們提供了巴西的 NIM 和合併後的 NIM 的披露。是的，我們確實看到了投資組合的變化，特別是當我們從 PIX 融資中撤出，同時增加對風險較低的客戶的敞口時，這對 NIMS 來說將是一個持續的阻力。我們也看到 Selic 價格上漲，如果其他條件不變，短期內這對 NIMS 來說將是一個輕微的阻力。

But I think conversely, Jorge, we did see increases in LDRs, loan-to-deposit ratios, which somehow offset those two headwinds; and therefore, we have had a more resilient net interest margins throughout 2024 and the first quarter of 2025. Going forward, we do expect that the benefits from balance sheet re-leveraging with increases in LDRs to be the main kind of driver for our expansion in NIMs. And in the medium term, we would expect NIMs to go up, even though we can't necessarily have a high conviction outlook for one quarter here, one quarter there. It's never linear, but we do see upside from where we are today.

但我認為，相反，豪爾赫，我們確實看到貸存比（LDR）有所上升，這在某種程度上抵消了這兩大不利因素；因此，我們在 2024 年全年和 2025 年第一季擁有更具彈性的淨利差。展望未來，我們確實預期資產負債表再槓桿和貸存比增加的好處將成為我們淨利差擴張的主要驅動力。從中期來看，我們預計淨利息收益率 (NIM) 將會上升，儘管我們不一定對某個季度或某個季度的前景抱有很高的信心。它從來都不是直線性的，但我們確實從今天的狀況看到了好處。

Thank you, Lago. And if I may ask a follow-up question, and it's a clarification. I guess, you mentioned that part of the origination of secure loans was impacted because FGTS was not originating for 10 days. Is that 10 working days out of the total working days of the quarter? How do we think about the magnitude of that impact? In other words, if we look at the average origination per day or the origination adjusted for those days, the BRL2.9 billions in originations that you did in the quarter would have been how much higher? Again, just assuming a normal rather than the 10-day loss that you had.

謝謝你，拉戈。如果我可以問一個後續問題，這是一個澄清。我想，您提到部分擔保貸款的發放受到了影響，因為 FGTS 10 天內沒有發放貸款。這是該季度總工作日中的 10 個工作天嗎？我們如何看待這種影響的程度？換句話說，如果我們查看每天的平均發放量或根據這些天的發放量進行調整，那麼您在本季度發放的 29 億巴西雷亞爾的發放量會高出多少？再一次，只是假設您遭受的損失是正常的，而不是 10 天的損失。

I think this operational issue that the market had with FGTS probably caused a 10% impact in the quarter for FGTS, so that's the order of magnitude that I would consider for that, Jorge.

我認為市場在 FGTS 中遇到的這個營運問題可能對 FGTS 本季造成了 10% 的影響，所以這是我會考慮的數量級，Jorge。

All right, thank you and congrats again.

好的，謝謝你，再次恭喜你。

Eduardo Rosman, BTG Pactual.

愛德華多·羅斯曼 (Eduardo Rosman)，BTG Pactual。

Hi, everyone. Congrats on the numbers. I think I have a question to David, because a couple of days after the fourth quarter was out, I think this was at the end of February, David was part of a podcast, a Nucast, where he talked about a lot of things. But a strong message came from the big excitement about the launch of Nu beyond LatAm.

大家好。恭喜你取得這些成績。我想我有一個問題要問大衛，因為在第四季度結束幾天后，我想這是在二月底，大衛參加了一個播客，一個 Nucast，他在其中談論了很多事情。但人們對 Nu 在拉丁美洲以外地區的推出感到非常興奮，這傳遞出了一個強烈的訊息。

Then at the end of March, we saw the announcement that you were back to day-to-day operations, taking direct leadership. So just trying to understand here how we can understand that. Is it fair to say that maybe Brazil and Mexico are maybe -- I know that they are the priorities, but it's fair to say that they are again top priorities and maybe going beyond LatAm? It's a little bit more kind of delayed, or should we still expect any announcement by the end of the year? Just trying to understand the recent announcements and the message. Thanks.

然後在三月底，我們看到了您重返日常營運並直接擔任領導職務的公告。所以只是想在這裡理解我們如何理解這一點。是否可以公平地說，巴西和墨西哥可能是——我知道它們是優先考慮的對象，但是否可以公平地說，它們再次成為首要考慮的對象，甚至可能超越拉丁美洲？這有點延遲了，還是我們仍然應該期待在年底前發布任何公告？只是想了解最近的公告和資訊。謝謝。

Sure, Rosman. Thank you for the question. Yes, so Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia continue to be very much the focus of the company right now. As you see in the story, there is a lot to do even in Brazil as we continue to monetize this space. However, we've always thought that the thesis that we're executing since 2013, which is that the future of global consumer banking is of the digital banking market, the digital banking model, it's a global thesis. It's not specific to Brazil. It's not specific to Mexico.

當然，羅斯曼。謝謝你的提問。是的，巴西、墨西哥和哥倫比亞目前仍然是公司關注的重點。正如您在故事中看到的，即使在巴西，隨著我們繼續將這個領域貨幣化，也有很多事情要做。然而，我們始終認為，我們自 2013 年以來一直在執行的論點，即全球消費者銀行業務的未來屬於數位銀行市場、數位銀行模式，這是一個全球性的論點。這並不是巴西獨有的。這並不是墨西哥獨有的。

Some of the advantages that even Lago mentioned here in this slide, where you suddenly have this business model that can grow faster, reach more customers, generate higher return of equity for shareholders, and generate higher NPS, proves that this model is the right model to bank a very significant percentage of the population. So we are thinking about that now for the next five to ten years. We are thinking about that potential for internationalization.

拉戈在這張投影片中提到的一些優勢，即你突然擁有了這種可以更快增長、接觸更多客戶、為股東創造更高股本回報率、創造更高淨推薦值的商業模式，證明了這種模式是適合相當大比例的人口的正確模式。所以我們現在正在考慮未來五到十年的問題。我們正在考慮國際化的潛力。

We are making progress with a small percentage of our allocation. I'm not ready yet to announce when we'll have more data specifically about what the strategy there is going to be. We do think that it's going to be a big part of our story over the next five to ten years. But for now, I think all I can say is we are very, very, very focused on these three markets and a lot of the work that we continue to do in improving platforms, in improving systems, in improving the overall quality that we have in our product, all of that ultimately is going to help out in any potential internationalization via the markets that we operate today.

我們正在利用一小部分分配資金取得進展。我還沒有準備好宣布我們何時會獲得更多有關具體戰略的數據。我們確實認為，在未來五到十年內，它將成為我們故事的重要組成部分。但就目前而言，我想我可以說的是，我們非常非常專注於這三個市場，並且我們將繼續進行大量工作來改進平台、改進系統、提高我們產品的整體質量，所有這些最終都將透過我們目前運營的市場幫助我們實現任何潛在的國際化。

Okay, thanks a lot, David.

好的，非常感謝，大衛。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Pedro Leduc, Itaú BBA.

Pedro Leduc，義大利 BBA。

Thanks, guys, for taking my question. On provision expenses and then tying it up with NIMs, historically, you guys have always overcome higher provision expenses by pricing it very adequately and all the specifics in Brazil and Mexico. But when I look at the overall NII post-costal risk, it has been slipping a little bit. Risk adjusted in for several quarters now.

謝謝大家回答我的問題。關於撥備費用以及將其與淨利息收益率 (NIM) 掛鉤，從歷史上看，你們總是能夠通過非常充分的定價以及巴西和墨西哥的所有具體情況來克服更高的撥備費用。但當我觀察整體 NII 肋後風險時，發現它一直在稍微下降。風險已經調整了幾個季度了。

So my question is in respect to this direction going forward, when do you think you can adjust or stabilize the overall risk-adjusted NIMs? Where do you think it's going to come from? Is it going to be lower cost of risk? Which, honestly, was the biggest surprise for me. This quarter was the higher cost of risk, given that it's been underwriting more selective in the last two quarters. So trying to reconcile these pieces going forward. Thank you.

所以我的問題是，就未來的發展方向而言，您認為何時可以調整或穩定整體風險調整後的淨利息收益率？您認為它會從哪裡來？風險成本會降低嗎？老實說，這對我來說是最大的驚喜。鑑於過去兩個季度的承保更加謹慎，本季的風險成本較高。因此，嘗試協調這些部分。謝謝。

Yes, Leduc, thanks so much for your question. Let me try to refer you to a few slides, and then I think it will help us tie the story that we have. So if you go to slide 24, you will see the evolution of our risk-adjusted net interest margin, which I believe is something that you were alluding to. The risk-adjusted margin in the very last quarter, first quarter of 2025, had a drop of about 130 basis points.

是的，Leduc，非常感謝您的提問。讓我嘗試向您推薦幾張投影片，然後我認為這將有助於我們將我們的故事連結起來。因此，如果您翻到第 24 張投影片，您將看到我們的風險調整後淨利差的演變，我相信這是您所暗示的。最後一個季度，即 2025 年第一季度，風險調整後利潤率下降了約 130 個基點。

About three-fourths of the drop, three-fourths, is entirely seasonal. So every first quarter of every year, especially due to the dynamics in Brazil. As you have seen in the first quarter of 2024, as you have seen in the first quarter of 2023, you do see an increase in CLA, and you do see an increase in cost of risk in the quarter. In fact, if you take a look at the delta cost of risk in every first quarter of every year, the one in 2025 was by no means higher than the average of what we have experienced over the past three years. And you can see the cost of risk in 2024.

其中約四分之三的降幅完全是季節性的。因此每年第一季度，尤其考慮到巴西的動態。正如您在 2024 年第一季和 2023 年第一季所看到的那樣，您確實看到 CLA 有所增加，並且您確實看到本季風險成本增加。事實上，如果你看一下每年第一季的風險增量成本，你會發現 2025 年的風險增量成本絕不高於過去三年的平均值。您可以看到 2024 年的風險成本。

So let's say three-fourths of this was seasonal. The other one-fourth, Leduc, was basically the result of the contraction of NIM resulting from the investments that we are doing in the deposit base of Mexico and Colombia. So it is the way that we are seeing the business now when we put this on a consolidated basis. It's harder and harder to have a very accurate perspective of each of the business because you basically have three different pieces.

因此我們可以說其中四分之三是季節性的。另外四分之一，即萊杜克，基本上是由於我們在墨西哥和哥倫比亞存款基礎進行的投資導致淨利差收縮的結果。因此，當我們將其置於合併基礎上時，我們現在看到的就是業務狀況。由於業務基本上分為三個不同的部分，因此對每個業務都越來越難以有一個非常準確的認識。

You have Brazil, which is a more mature, though not yet mature, operations. You have Mexico and Colombia, which are high-growth operations in which we are making a lot of investments. And you have a holding company that is now holding about $3 billion. So I think going forward, if you take a look at Brazil specifically, you would expect to see NIMs stable to growing as we re-leverage the balance sheet and with very attractive risk-adjusted margins that should be largely stable or going up.

巴西的營運雖然還不成熟，但已經比較成熟了。墨西哥和哥倫比亞是高成長市場，我們在這兩個國家進行了大量投資。你們有一家控股公司，目前持有約 30 億美元。因此，我認為，展望未來，如果你特別關注巴西，你會看到淨利息收益率將穩定成長，因為我們重新利用資產負債表，而且風險調整後的利潤率非常有吸引力，應該會基本上保持穩定或上升。

We do expect to continue to invest in Mexico and Colombia. And the extent to which we're going to make those investments will largely depend on the additional customer engagement and the competitive dynamics that we will have there. The final thing that I would say is that in this quarter, I think for the first time, we provided a standalone portray of the performance of Brazil.

我們確實希望繼續在墨西哥和哥倫比亞投資。我們進行這些投資的程度很大程度上取決於額外的客戶參與度和我們在那裡的競爭動態。最後我想說的是，我認為在本季我們第一次對巴西的表現進行了獨立的描述。

So if you go to slide 21, you will see the evolution of customers, revenues, and net income in Brazil and the returns that we have had in Brazil on a standalone basis. And you can see that on the right-hand side, even when you keep net interest margins relatively flat, as we had from 2024 to 2025, you can continue to see returns on equity going up, primarily due to the re-leveraging of the balance sheet and the operating leverage that we have in our business.

因此，如果您翻到第 21 張投影片，您將看到巴西的客戶、收入和淨收入的演變，以及我們在巴西獲得的獨立回報。您可以在右側看到，即使您保持淨息差相對平穩，就像我們在 2024 年至 2025 年期間那樣，您也可以繼續看到股本回報率上升，這主要是由於資產負債表的重新槓桿化以及我們業務中的經營槓桿。

And in our view, the portrayal that we are offering here on slide 21 serves not only as a reference that the business model works at scale in Brazil but also paints the direction to which we believe Mexico and Colombia will be going in the future.

我們認為，第 21 張投影片上提供的描述不僅可以作為該商業模式在巴西大規模運作的參考，而且還描繪了我們認為墨西哥和哥倫比亞未來的發展方向。

It's very complete, Lago. Thank you.

非常完整，Lago。謝謝。

Tito Labarta, Goldman Sachs.

高盛的 Tito Labarta。

Hi, good evening. Thank you for the call and taking my question. I guess my question is a follow up on just the secured lending overall. Very good trends in the quarter, despite not being able to originate FGTS loans for those 10 days. But maybe just help us think a little bit more about how that opportunity is for you, because it seems like you're starting to really accelerate there, not just on FGTS, but also you mentioned public payroll lending. I think it was 50% in the quarter.

嗨，晚上好。感謝您的來電並回答我的問題。我想我的問題是關於整體擔保貸款的後續問題。儘管這 10 天內無法發放 FGTS 貸款，但本季的趨勢非常好。但也許只是幫助我們多思考這個機會對您來說如何，因為看起來您開始真正加速發展，不僅僅是在 FGTS 方面，而且您還提到了公共工資貸款。我認為本季是 50%。

Then you have private payroll. I know you don't give any guidance, but just help us think about how big can a secure lending portfolio get for you, and how aggressive can you be there in FGTS, public payroll, and private payroll, just to think about that long-term opportunity set for you, given it's still very early stages for you?

那你就有私人薪資單了。我知道您沒有給出任何指導，但請幫助我們思考一下，安全的貸款組合能為您帶來多大的規模，您在 FGTS、公共工資單和私人工資單方面能有多積極，只是想想為您設定的長期機會，考慮到這對您來說還處於非常早期的階段？

Hi, Tito, thanks so much for the question. Look, I'll try to address those three pieces of your questions head on. I would just start by drawing your attention to slide 6, in which we provide our most recent view on the profit pool of Brazil. And I think at least it helps me now get some perspective on what is the size of the market and where is our growth potential there.

你好，Tito，非常感謝你的提問。聽著，我會試著正面回答你的這三個問題。首先我想請大家注意第 6 張投影片，其中我們提供了巴西利潤池的最新看法。我認為至少它現在可以幫助我了解市場規模以及我們的成長潛力在哪裡。

So if you go to slide 6, you will notice that this is a fairly large kind of a profit pool in which we started with credit cards where we now have 15% market share there. We continue to grow across all of the segments And the second product that we launched was personal loans that you can see on the left-hand side of the screen, which is the single largest profit pool per se, where our customers, if I take the social security numbers of our customers and take them to the central bank database, they now account for nearly 60% of that profit pool.

因此，如果你看投影片 6，你會注意到這是一個相當大的利潤池，我們從信用卡開始，現在我們在那裡擁有 15% 的市場份額。我們在所有領域都繼續成長，我們推出的第二款產品是個人貸款，您可以在螢幕左側看到，它本身是最大的利潤池，如果我將客戶的社會安全號碼輸入中央銀行資料庫，我們的客戶現在佔該利潤池的近 60%。

So that means that we don't need to fish outside of our fishpond to be able to grow our shares in unsecured personal loans by almost 10x. So that's a massive growth for us. Then you go into payroll loans, which is the one that you explicitly asked. We still have a market share there of less than 1%, and then you go above and beyond the private payroll loan that has recently been launched, in which we are extremely excited to be part of.

這意味著我們不需要在魚池外捕魚就能將無擔保個人貸款的份額增加近 10 倍。這對我們來說是一個巨大的成長。然後你進入薪資貸款，這是你明確要求的。我們在那裡的市場份額仍然不到 1%，但我們的市場份額遠遠超出了最近推出的私人工資貸款，我們非常高興能夠參與其中。

So if I were to slice your question in three, now public payroll loans, FGTS, and private payroll loans, I would say that in public payroll loans, we are starting to see very encouraging traction there. We grew by 50%, but we are nowhere near where we want to be in this product. We are still ramping up our connectivity with a number of the collateral systems. We are signing up collateral agreements with the largest states and municipalities.

因此，如果我將您的問題分為三類，即公共工資貸款、FGTS 和私人工資貸款，我會說在公共工資貸款方面，我們開始看到非常令人鼓舞的進展。我們成長了 50%，但還遠遠沒有達到我們想要的產品水準。我們仍在加強與一些附屬系統的連結。我們正在與最大的州和市政當局簽署附屬協議。

We are improving the portability flow for our customers and from the customers of third-party players. And as we start to see potentially interest rates dropping in Brazil over the coming quarters, you would expect to see the portability of public payroll loans to go up. But that is a product that was born kind of offline. It was born through loan brokers and bank branches originations. So it's harder for us to change the behavior, but the early signs are super encouraging, and we think we will get there faster than we originally thought.

我們正在為我們的客戶以及第三方玩家的客戶改進可移植性流程。隨著我們開始看到未來幾季巴西的利率可能下降，您可以預期公共工資貸款的可轉移性將會上升。但這是一種線下誕生的產品。它是透過貸款經紀人和銀行分行發起而誕生的。因此，我們很難改變這種行為，但早期跡象非常令人鼓舞，我們認為我們會比最初想像的更快地實現這一目標。

Now the interesting thing to do is that when you go into FGTS -- which is a product that was already born digital, right? There was no loan brokers. There was no bank branches. It is a product that we have been able to accelerate even faster. We think that in 2024 we accounted for approximately 20% to 25% of the entire originations of FGTS in Brazil. In the first two months of 2025, we may have accounted for about 30% of there and growing.

現在有趣的事情是，當你進入 FGTS 時——這是一個已經誕生的數位化產品，對嗎？沒有貸款經紀人。沒有銀行分行。這是我們能夠加速開發的產品。我們認為，到 2024 年，我們將佔巴西 FGTS 全部發動量的約 20% 至 25%。到了2025年的前兩個月，我們可能已經佔其中的30%左右，而且還在成長。

So it goes to show that when we are able to put at play our low-cost advantages, we can have a fairly impactful role there. And in private payroll loans, we don't think it's going to be any different than the FGTS. Why? It's a product that has been born fully digital already. It is a product that we will be able to serve to a very large number of our customers with a very low-cost base, with the best UX and UI, and with a disruptive pricing.

這表明，當我們能夠發揮我們的低成本優勢時，我們可以在那裡發揮相當大的影響力。在私人薪資貸款方面，我們認為它與 FGTS 沒有什麼不同。為什麼？這是一種已經完全數位化的產品。我們將能夠以非常低的成本、最佳的使用者體驗 (UX) 和使用者介面 (UI) 以及顛覆性的價格為大量客戶提供這款產品。

So we are excited with this product. We are still testing and learning some of the collateral types. I don't think there is any special kind of a first-mover advantage to try to take a little bit more risk on the collateral structures until it's better tested. But it's certainly a product that we expect to be leaning in very aggressively in the coming quarters and years.

所以我們對這個產品感到非常興奮。我們仍在測試和學習一些抵押品類型。我認為，在經過更好的測試之前，嘗試在抵押結構上承擔更多一點風險並沒有任何特殊的先發優勢。但我們預計該產品在未來幾季和幾年內將會大力推廣。

Great. That's helpful, Lago. If I can, just one quick follow up on that. You mentioned that you do not expect any material short-term impact from potentially, I guess, maybe refinancing some unsecured loans into the private payroll. Can you give just maybe a little bit more color why you don't seem to think that there should be any impact for you guys on that?

偉大的。這很有幫助，Lago。如果可以的話，我只想快速跟進。您提到，我猜，您不認為將一些無擔保貸款再融資到私人薪資中可能會產生任何重大的短期影響。您能否稍微解釋一下為什麼您認為這不會對您產生任何影響？

It's because we basically think that the size of the pie -- the growth of the size of the pie will far outweigh any potential short-term cannibalization on unsecured personal loans, right? And it is the best product for our customers. It's the product that we will know put in front of every single customer that can benefit from this.

這是因為我們基本上認為，蛋糕的大小——蛋糕大小的增長將遠遠超過無擔保個人貸款的任何潛在短期蠶食，對嗎？這對我們的客戶來說是最好的產品。我們將把這款產品呈現給每位能夠從中受益的客戶。

And we think that we will be able to grant more credit, better credit, and to more customers than we could otherwise do. And this should be even a stronger trend than potential short-term negative impacts on unsecured personal loans. And of course, going back to I think Leduc's question, Tito, on a risk-adjusted basis, given this product is expected to have lower risk, not no risk, but lower risk, on a risk-adjusted basis, it should also give us a very good kind of a gross profit going forward.

我們認為，我們將能夠向更多的客戶提供比以往更多的信貸、更好的信貸。這種趨勢甚至比對無擔保個人貸款的潛在短期負面影響更為強勁。當然，回到 Leduc 的問題，Tito，在風險調整的基礎上，考慮到該產品預計風險較低，不是沒有風險，而是風險較低，在風險調整的基礎上，它也應該給我們帶來非常好的未來毛利潤。

Very clear. Thank you, Lago.

非常清楚。謝謝你，拉戈。

Thiago Batista, UBS.

蒂亞戈·巴蒂斯塔，瑞銀。

Hi, everyone, thanks for the opportunity. Congrats for the result. I have one question on the credit card. When we look for the active cardholders in this quarter, we saw a small contract, a small expansion, sorry, probably because this product seems to be close to the maturation in Brazil. But it called our attention that there were about 9 million cardholders in the first year that are active in terms of revenues, but not in terms of transactions, which means about, let's say, 22% of your cardholder base.

大家好，感謝有這個機會。恭喜取得這樣的結果。我有一個關於信用卡的問題。當我們尋找本季度的活躍持卡人時，我們看到了一個小的合同，一個小的擴張，抱歉，可能是因為該產品在巴西似乎接近成熟。但值得注意的是，第一年大約有 900 萬持卡人在收入方面很活躍，但在交易方面卻不活躍，這意味著大約有 22% 的持卡人。

This level of clients that are not using the card for new transactions is a concern for Nu. Do you have any strategy to try to reduce this number? And only to connect with this, if the restart that you recently announced, the refinance program, somehow could improve the number of active users of our cardholders?

這類客戶不使用該卡進行新交易，這是 Nu 所擔心的問題。您有什麼策略可以嘗試減少這個數字嗎？僅與此相關，如果您最近宣布重新啟動再融資計劃，是否可以以某種方式提高我們持卡人的活躍用戶數量？

Hey, thanks for the question. This is Youssef. Yes, as you point out, there's always a fair number of credit card customers that are active from the revenue definition standpoint, but not necessarily from a transacting standpoint. A lot of that can be driven just by credit limit constraint. As you know, we tend to be very conservative, especially initially with new customers, around how we grant credit limits. And so we wait to see both utilization and good risk behavior before we go and expand those credit limits. And what we find is when we expand those credit limits, we then see transacting behavior pick up. So that's not a new phenomenon by any stretch.

嘿，謝謝你的提問。這是優素福。是的，正如您所指出的，從收入定義的角度來看，總是有相當數量的信用卡客戶是活躍的，但從交易的角度來看則不一定。其中許多都可以由信用額度限制來推動。如您所知，我們在授予信用額度方面往往非常保守，尤其是對於新客戶而言。因此，在擴大信用額度之前，我們要等待觀察利用率和良好的風險行為。我們發現，當我們擴大信用額度時，交易行為就會增加。所以這無論如何都不是一個新現象。

Okay, thanks and congrats for the new position of Guilherme.

好的，謝謝並祝賀 Guilherme 獲得新職位。

The New Guilherme. We have two now. But Thiago, I think we forgot to address one of the questions you asked about the renegotiations. So we did announce the renegotiations in early second quarter of 2025, so it has no impact whatsoever. to our financial statements. We do expect it to have a mild positive impact in our financial statements in the coming quarters with higher recoveries. But more than that, and to your point, we do expect to actually see this fostering more activity within some of the credit cards. And thanks for Guilherme. We are very glad with his acquisition.

新吉列爾梅。我們現在有兩個。但是蒂亞戈，我認為我們忘記回答你關於重新談判的一個問題了。因此，我們確實在 2025 年第二季初宣布了重新談判，所以它不會產生任何影響。到我們的財務報表。我們確實預計它將在未來幾季對我們的財務報表產生溫和的正面影響，並帶來更高的回收率。但更重要的是，正如您所說，我們確實希望看到這能夠促進一些信用卡的更多活動。感謝 Guilherme。我們對他的收購感到非常高興。

Thank you, Lago.

謝謝你，拉戈。

Thanks, Thiago.

謝謝，蒂亞戈。

Gustavo Schroden, Citi.

花旗銀行的古斯塔沃‧施羅登 (Gustavo Schroden)。

Hi, good evening, guys, and thanks for taking my question. My question is regarding the debt renegotiation plan that you announced last month, Recomeço. which is the largest renegotiation campaign from the bank. So my first question, if it is related to PIX finance product and if the idea is to bring customers back to an eligible base for credit again, aiming to increase credit origination in PIX finance, and if that wouldn't create a more hazard effect, putting pressure on the sustainability of PIX finance product, creating a vicious cycle of acceleration and deceleration in the product origination in the coming quarters.

大家好，晚上好，謝謝你們回答我的問題。我的問題是關於您上個月宣布的債務重新談判計劃，Recomeço。這是該銀行發起的最大規模的重新談判活動。所以我的第一個問題是，這是否與 PIX 金融產品有關，如果目的是讓客戶再次回到合格的信貸基礎，旨在增加 PIX 金融的信貸發放，並且這不會產生更大的風險效應，給 PIX 金融產品的可持續性帶來壓力，造成未來幾個季度產品發放加速和減速的惡性循環。

And still on that, if you could share with us how the program is evolving, giving some quantitative metrics on these. And what are the main impacts expected in the balance sheet, P&L, and asset quality indicators? It's still not clear for me if it shouldn't increase the write-off balance while discounts could negatively impact its P&L. Thank you.

就此而言，如果您可以與我們分享該計劃的進展情況，並提供一些定量指標。預計對資產負債表、損益表和資產品質指標的主要影響為何？我仍然不清楚它是否不應該增加註銷餘額，而折扣可能會對其損益產生負面影響。謝謝。

Thanks for the question. So just a few things on this program. As Lago mentioned a minute ago, this is a new program, so it hasn't had any impact on the first quarter. We expect it to have a fairly small positive impact on the second quarter. The way we think about it is this is an opportunity to give some of our customers a fresh start. Some of those customers may have had lateness and delinquency issues in the past.

謝謝你的提問。關於這個程式只有幾件事。正如 Lago 剛才提到的，這是一個新計劃，因此對第一季沒有任何影響。我們預計它對第二季度的正面影響相當小。我們認為這是一個讓一些客戶重新開始的機會。其中一些顧客過去可能曾有過遲到和拖欠付款的問題。

A lot of them have actually managed to resolve their debts either partially or fully, and so we want to give them an extra incentive to get back on track with their debts by providing, in some instances, in a very selective way, access to credit again. So for some of them, we will reactivate their cards, some of them may offer discounts, which are very much in line with discounts we provide and actions that we have for years now successfully. And it's very carefully designed and carefully tested to actually avoid any issues or more hazards.

他們中的許多人實際上已經設法部分或全部解決了債務問題，因此，我們希望透過在某些情況下以非常有選擇性的方式再次提供信貸機會，為他們提供額外的激勵，使他們能夠重新走上償還債務的正軌。因此，對於其中一些人，我們將重新啟動他們的卡，其中一些可能會提供折扣，這與我們提供的折扣以及我們多年來成功採取的行動非常一致。它經過精心設計和仔細測試，可以真正避免任何問題或更多危險。

So we tend to exclude people who have shown signs of recidivism. We don't want to get people into cycles of debt. This doesn't serve customers and serve us, and it's designed carefully to incentivize people paying down their past debts, resulting them, and then getting a fresh start, again, with often very small limits to begin with as part of this fresh start, often with secured deposits acting as a collateral for those new limits and then very gradually increasing those limits over time as we have done very meticulously in the past as we see good repayment behavior.

因此，我們傾向於排除那些已經表現出再犯罪跡象的人。我們不想讓人們陷入債務循環。這既不利於客戶，也不利於我們自己，而是經過精心設計，以激勵人們償還過去的債務，然後重新開始，通常開始時限額很小，作為重新開始的一部分，通常以擔保存款作為這些新限額的抵押品，然後隨著時間的推移逐漸增加這些限額，就像我們過去在看到良好的還款行為時非常細緻地做的那樣。

So all of that is kind of designed to provide incentives for customers to show that they can handle the credit again and promote healthy credit behaviors. And you alluded to whether this is related in any way to PIX financing. No, it's not in any way a PIX financing play or anything like that.

因此，所有這些都是為了激勵客戶，讓他們表明自己能夠再次處理信用，並促進健康的信用行為。您提到這是否與 PIX 融資有任何關聯。不，這絕不是 PIX 融資行為或類似行為。

All right. Thank you.

好的。謝謝。

Mario Pierry, Bank of America.

美國銀行的馬裡奧·皮埃里 (Mario Pierry)。

Hey, guys. Good evening. Congratulations on the results. Thanks for taking my question. I really wanted to focus on the net interest margin. And Lago, you mentioned, right, that margins in Brazil, you think that they should be going up. But my concern is, it feels like, or the data shows that you're growing a lot more in secured loans. That should technically have lower margins than unsecured.

嘿，大家好。晚安.恭喜你取得這樣的成績。感謝您回答我的問題。我真正想關注的是淨利差。拉戈，您剛才提到，您認為巴西的利潤率應該會上升。但我擔心的是，感覺或數據顯示你的擔保貸款成長得更多。從技術上講，其利潤率應該低於無擔保的利潤率。

Also, when we think about your funding, when we look at the bulk of your funding today is the short maturity. And as you expand into loans of a longer duration, I would imagine you have to increase the duration of your funding as well, and that should be a little bit more expensive. So given that perspective, help me understand why you think margins then can continue to go up in Brazil.

此外，當我們考慮您的融資時，我們發現您今天的大部分融資都是短期融資。隨著貸款期限的延長，我想你也必須延長融資期限，而這應該會更昂貴一些。因此，從這個角度來看，請幫助我理解為什麼您認為巴西的利潤率會繼續上升。

And then it's very helpful that you show this breakdown of margins in Brazil of 21.8% net interest margin. I can't believe that the margins in Mexico or Colombia are going to be as profitable as these. And as you showed, right, your margins in Brazil two years ago were like 10%. I would imagine as you're growing into Colombia and Mexico, your margins are probably not going to be at the same pace as Brazil. So technically, we should continue to see margins coming down as the composition of loans in Colombia and Mexico continue to gain a bigger share of your loans.

然後，您展示巴西 21.8% 淨利差的利潤細目非常有幫助。我不敢相信墨西哥或哥倫比亞的利潤率會如此之高。正如您所展示的，兩年前您在巴西的利潤率約為 10%。我可以想像，隨著你們在哥倫比亞和墨西哥的業務拓展，你們的利潤率可能不會與巴西保持相同的成長速度。因此從技術角度來看，隨著哥倫比亞和墨西哥的貸款組成繼續佔據貸款的更大份額，我們應該繼續看到利潤率下降。

And finally, you show this slide, the loan-to-deposit ratio of 44%. I think it's one of your slides. I think you're only doing deposits to interest-earning loans. And you are consolidating the whole balance of deposits and loans. But my understanding is that deposits that you have in Mexico cannot be used to lend in Brazil.

最後，你展示這張投影片，貸款與存款比率為 44%。我認為這是你的一張投影片。我認為你只做有利息的貸款存款。您正在合併全部存款和貸款餘額。但我的理解是，你在墨​​西哥的存款不能用於在巴西放貸。

So when I look at just a loan-to-deposit ratio, not looking at interest earning loans, it feels like that number is growing a little bit. So can you help me also understand? So my question then is, the funding cost, I don't know how they can improve, especially if you have to increase the duration of those deposits. Thank you.

因此，當我只看貸款與存款比率，而不看有利息的貸款時，我覺得這個數字正在成長一點。那你能幫助我理解嗎？所以我的問題是，我不知道融資成本如何改善，特別是如果你必須增加這些存款的期限。謝謝。

No, Mario, thanks for the question. Let me try to unpack a little bit and go point by point. If you don't mind, let me talk about Brazil, and then I'll talk about Mexico and Colombia, and then we can try to pull everything together. So I think in Brazil, I don't think that, as you correctly pointed out, that cost of funding has a lot of room to improve from where it is today. So we don't expect, even though we have lots of funding in Brazil, we don't expect that we will aggressively lower our cost of funding. We want to be the place where all Brazilians receive payments, make payments, restore value. So we want to be very competitive there.

不，馬裡奧，謝謝你的提問。讓我試著稍微解釋一下並逐點闡述。如果你不介意的話，讓我談談巴西，然後我會談談墨西哥和哥倫比亞，然後我們可以嘗試將所有事情整合在一起。因此，我認為在巴西，正如您正確指出的那樣，融資成本與現在相比沒有太大的改善空間。因此，儘管我們在巴西擁有大量資金，但我們並不期望大幅降低融資成本。我們希望成為所有巴西人收款、付款和恢復價值的地方。所以我們希望在那裡具有很強的競爭力。

And yes, you are correct that as we grow the duration of our assets, so too we will have to grow the durations of our liabilities going forward. and that would actually kind of, if anything, increase a little bit the cost of funding that we would have. Having said that, I think, first, we still have plenty of deposits within our Brazilian franchise, and we still have a lot of medium to long-term funding from retail deposits in Brazil that is already embedded in our today's cost of funding.

是的，您說得對，隨著我們資產期限的增加，我們也必須增加未來負債期限。這實際上會稍微增加我們的融資成本。話雖如此，我認為，首先，我們在巴西特許經營店內仍然擁有大量存款，而且我們仍然擁有大量來自巴西零售存款的中長期資金，這些資金已經包含在我們今天的融資成本中。

And that in itself already enables us to increase in a fairly decent amount the size of our secure loan book. Remember that our unsecured loan book and our credit card book are very short-dated and can be adequately funded without any massive increases in the duration of our liabilities. So why did I say that net interest margins in Brazil are expected to remain as they are and in the medium and long-term increase is because of the re-leveraging of the balance sheet.

而這本身已經使我們能夠相當可觀地增加我們的擔保貸款帳簿的規模。請記住，我們的無擔保貸款帳簿和信用卡帳簿期限都很短，可以在負債期限不大幅增加的情況下獲得充足的資金。那為什麼我說巴西的淨利差預計會保持現狀，並且在中長期內會上升，是因為資產負債表的再槓桿化。

As our loan-to-deposit ratio in Brazil continues to go up, by which I mean our loan book will continue to outpace our deposits, we believe that the increasing re-leveraging of the balance sheet will be a fairly relevant tailwind for our net interest margins in the country. Having said that, I just wanted to -- I know that you have a full appreciation of that.

隨著我們在巴西的貸存比持續上升，這意味著我們的貸款餘額將繼續超過存款餘額，我們相信，資產負債表的再槓桿率不斷提高，將對我們在巴西的淨息差產生相當大的推動作用。話雖如此，我只是想——我知道你完全理解這一點。

I would just wanted to highlight this, Mario, which is the evolution of our net interest margins in Brazil, even if they stay flat for illustration purpose only, we can still materially increase the profitability of the business through operating leverage, right? So as we have seen the evolutions of CAC and cost to serve. But I wanted to address your question head-on on net interest margins for Brazil.

馬裡奧，我只想強調這一點，這是我們在巴西的淨息差的演變，即使它們只是為了說明目的而保持不變，我們仍然可以通過經營槓桿大幅提高業務的盈利能力，對嗎？正如我們所見，CAC 和服務成本的演變。但我想直接回答你關於巴西淨利差的問題。

Now let's go to net interest margins for Mexico and Colombia. Yes, I think in Mexico, in the next few quarters, very likely the net interest margins there will be much tighter than they are in Brazil until we continue to grow and optimize our cost of funding and our loan-to-deposit ratio in the country, almost the same way that we did, as you may recall, Mario, in Brazil about 3.5 to 4 years ago, in which we optimized the funding when we thought that the timing was right from a competitive and customer value proposition perspective.

現在我們來看看墨西哥和哥倫比亞的淨利差。是的，我認為在墨西哥，在接下來的幾個季度裡，那裡的淨息差很可能會比巴西緊張得多，直到我們繼續增長並優化我們在該國的融資成本和貸存比，這幾乎與我們大約 3.5 到 4 年前在巴西所做的一樣，馬裡奧，你可能還記得，當時我們認為從競爭和客戶價值的角度來看了融資。

We do expect to do so in Mexico and Colombia at some point in time, not necessarily in the next few quarters. And at that point in time, we do expect the profitability of Mexico to converge towards Brazil. I think Mexico's unit economics of our core products, namely credit cards and lending, are as compelling, if not more attractive than the ones in Brazil.

我們確實希望在某個時間點在墨西哥和哥倫比亞這樣做，但不一定在接下來的幾季。到那時，我們確實預期墨西哥的獲利能力將向巴西靠攏。我認為，我們的核心產品（即信用卡和貸款）在墨西哥的單位經濟效益與巴西一樣引人注目，甚至更具吸引力。

So I wouldn't necessarily discard the scenario in which the possibility of Mexico can now meet if not exceed that of Brazil. I think Columbia has now a more -- a tighter kind of a NIM that I think the profitability there likely be lower than in Mexico, but it's still ahead of our kind of minimum 30% ROE threshold.

因此，我不會排除墨西哥現在能夠趕上甚至超過巴西的可能性。我認為哥倫比亞現在的淨利差更為嚴格，我認為那裡的獲利能力可能低於墨西哥，但仍然高於我們最低 30% 的 ROE 門檻。

Clear. But when you talk about profitability in Mexico being higher than in Brazil, you're talking about the ROE or you're talking about the net interest margin?

清除。但是當您說墨西哥的獲利能力高於巴西時，您指的是 ROE 還是淨利差？

I'm talking about the ROE and the ROE, both. I'm not talking about the net interest margin.

我說的是 ROE 和 ROE，兩者都有。我不是說淨利差。

Okay, thank you.

好的，謝謝。

Yuri Fernandes, JP Morgan.

尤里‧費爾南德斯，摩根大通。

Hello, good evening and thank you for the opportunity of asking questions and also wishing good luck to all here. I have a question cost of risk, a follow up, and it's a question regarding Stage 2, the coverage of Stage 2. So it is clear, like, first Q is seasonal. We have 15, 90 days. You also had higher origination. But when we go to the Stage 2, in particular to the relative trigger, we note an increase this quarter on your coverage.

大家好，晚上好，感謝您給我提問的機會，也祝大家好運。我有一個關於風險成本的問題，一個後續問題，這是一個關於第二階段、第二階段覆蓋範圍的問題。因此很明顯，第一個 Q 是季節性的。我們有15到90天的時間。您的起源也較高。但是，當我們進入第二階段，特別是相對觸發時，我們注意到本季您的覆蓋範圍有所增加。

You used to have, I don't know, high teens, 20% coverage on Stage 2 for your relative trigger. And this quarter, you build a little bit of more coverage. So just checking why Nubank is building more coverage for Stage 2, if you're seeing a little bit of more risk in that bucket, or if you're just being conservative. And whenever your cost of risk normalizes after the first two seasonality, we could see some buffer for your cost of risk to move down. Thank you.

我不知道，您以前在第 2 階段的相對觸發覆蓋率是否達到十幾歲或 20%。本季度，您將獲得更多的覆蓋範圍。因此，只需檢查為什麼 Nubank 要為第 2 階段建立更多的覆蓋範圍，看看您是否認為該階段的風險更大一些，或者您是否只是比較保守。每當您的風險成本在前兩個季節性之後恢復正常時，我們就會看到一些緩衝來降低您的風險成本。謝謝。

Hi, Yuri. Thanks for the question. This is Youssef. So yes, I see you're correct in your observation. So there's two things going on with Stage 2. As you note, one is just the normal seasonality we see in the first quarter. Stage 2 closely correlates to early stage delinquencies, and those tend to peak in the first quarter. So there's that one effect. And then there's another effect beyond that, which has to do with the relative trigger, both in magnitude and in coverage ratio.

你好，尤里。謝謝你的提問。這是優素福。是的，我認為你的觀察是正確的。因此，第二階段有兩件事正在發生。正如您所說，這只是我們在第一季看到的正常季節性現象。第二階段與早期拖欠情況密切相關，拖欠情況往往在第一季達到高峰。所以就有了這樣的效果。除此之外，還有另一種影響，它與相對觸發因素有關，包括幅度和覆蓋率。

What we do, Yuri, is from time to time we will recalibrate those triggers in our provision model. We've done such a recalibration in the first quarter, so we've updated the criteria for the relative criteria to enter Stage 2, and it resulted in two things. One is a slight increase in the coverage ratio for that component of Stage 2, and you will notice at the same time a slight decrease in the coverage of Stage 1, because we pulled out some of those loans from the net exposure from Stage 1.

尤里，我們所做的就是不時地重新校準我們提供的模型中的那些觸發器。我們在第一季就進行了這樣的重新校準，所以我們更新了進入第二階段的相對標準，結果有兩個。一是第二階段該部分的覆蓋率略有增加，同時你會注意到第一階段的覆蓋率略有下降，因為我們從第一階段的淨敞口中提取了部分貸款。

But if you look at the combined impact of both Stage 1 plus Stage 2, the aggregate has only increased by a little bit, by about 5% or so. And we think some of that recalibration is just to pull forward of loans we would have classified as Stage 2 later on in the future. So there's a bit of a one-time effect there.

但如果你看第一階段和第二階段的綜合影響，總量只增加了一點點，大約 5% 左右。我們認為，部分重新調整隻是為了提前發放我們未來歸類為第二階段的貸款。因此這有一點一次性的效果。

No, that's super clear, Youssef. And indeed, we saw the total coverage, considering all the stages, has been moving up, especially for credit cards. If I may very quickly, one unrelated follow up, just an accounting uncertainty I have here. On the $47 million DTA, given this is a DTA, this is already post-taxes, or should we think on these on net taxes for your net income for the quarter?

不，這非常清楚，優素福。事實上，我們看到，考慮到所有階段，整體覆蓋率一直在上升，尤其是信用卡。如果可以的話，我可以很快地跟進一個不相關的問題，只是我這裡有一個會計不確定性。對於 4700 萬美元的 DTA，鑑於這是 DTA，這已經是稅後收入了，還是我們應該考慮本季淨收入的淨稅？

No, you should think about this as a post-tax basis already, Yuri.

不，你應該把這視為稅後基礎，尤里。

Super clear. Thank you, Lago, and congrats on the margins showing signs of stabilization here. Thank you.

超級清晰。謝謝你，Lago，恭喜這裡的利潤率顯示出穩定的跡象。謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

So thank you, everyone. We now have approached six minutes of the call. So we are now concluding today's call. On behalf of Nu Holdings and our investor relations team, I want to thank you very much for your time and participation in our earnest call today. Over the coming days, we will be following up with questions received tonight but we are not able to answer. And please do not hesitate to reach out to our team if you have any further questions. Thank you and have a good night.

謝謝大家。現在我們的通話已經進行了六分鐘。我們現在結束今天的電話會議。我謹代表 Nu Holdings 和我們的投資者關係團隊，非常感謝您今天抽出時間參加我們的誠摯電話會議。在接下來的幾天裡，我們將跟進今晚收到的但無法回答的問題。如果您還有其他問題，請隨時聯絡我們的團隊。謝謝您，祝您晚安。

The Nu Holdings conference call has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation. You may now disconnect.

Nu Holdings 電話會議現已結束。感謝您參加今天的演講。您現在可以斷開連線。