Huntsman Corp (HUN) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Greetings and welcome to the Huntsman Corporation second-quarter 2025 earnings call.

問候並歡迎參加亨斯邁集團 2025 年第二季財報電話會議。

(Operator Instructions) As a reminder, this conference is being recorded.

（操作員指示）提醒一下，本次會議正在錄音。

It's now my pleasure to introduce Ivan Marcuse, Vice President of Investor Relations and Corporate Development.

現在我很高興介紹投資者關係和企業發展副總裁 Ivan Marcuse。

Thank you, Joe, and good morning, everyone.

謝謝你，喬，大家早安。

Welcome to Huntsman's second-quarter 2025 earnings call. Joining us on the call today are Peter Huntsman, Chairman, CEO and President; and Phil Lister, Executive Vice President and CFO. Yesterday, July 31, 2025, we released our earnings for the second quarter 2025 via press release and posted to our website, huntsman.com.

歡迎參加亨斯邁 2025 年第二季財報電話會議。今天參加電話會議的有董事長、執行長兼總裁 Peter Huntsman 和執行副總裁兼財務長 Phil Lister。昨天，2025 年 7 月 31 日，我們透過新聞稿發布了 2025 年第二季的收益，並發佈在我們的網站 huntsman.com 上。

We also posted a set of slides and detailed commentary discussing the second quarter of 2025 on our website. Peter Huntsman will provide some opening comments shortly, and we will then move to the Q&A session for the remainder of the call.

我們也在我們的網站上發布了一系列討論 2025 年第二季的幻燈片和詳細評論。彼得·亨茨曼 (Peter Huntsman) 很快就會發表一些開場白，然後我們將進入問答環節，進行剩餘的通話。

During the call, let me remind you that we may make statements about our projections or expectations for the future. All such statements are forward-looking statements, and while they reflect our current expectations, they involve risks and uncertainties and are not guarantees of future performance. You should review our filings with the SEC for more information regarding the factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from the projections or expectations.

在通話期間，請容許我提醒您，我們可能會對未來的預測或期望做出陳述。所有此類陳述均為前瞻性陳述，雖然它們反映了我們當前的預期，但它們涉及風險和不確定性，並且不能保證未來的表現。您應該查看我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件，以獲取有關可能導致實際結果與預測或預期存在重大差異的因素的更多資​​訊。

We do not plan on publicly updating or revising any forward-looking statements during the call -- during the quarter. We will also refer to non-GAAP financial measures, such as adjusted EBITDA, adjusted net income or loss and free cash flow. You can find reconciliations to the most directly comparable GAAP financial measures in our earnings release, which has been posted on our website at huntsman.com.

我們不打算在本季的電話會議期間公開更新或修改任何前瞻性聲明。我們也將參考非公認會計準則財務指標，例如調整後的 EBITDA、調整後的淨收入或虧損和自由現金流。您可以在我們的收益報告中找到與最直接可比較的 GAAP 財務指標的對賬，該報告已發佈在我們的網站 huntsman.com 上。

I'll now turn the call over to Peter Huntsman.

現在我將把電話轉給彼得‧亨茨曼。

Ivan, thank you very much, and thank you all for joining us. Our second quarter results were not unexpected and came in about where we thought they would. We did see a nice rebound back to what we would see as more normalized earnings from Advanced Materials offsetting the disappointing sluggishness of construction activity and tariff uncertainty, especially in polyurethanes.

伊万，非常感謝，也感謝大家加入我們。我們第二季的業績並不出人意料，達到了我們預期的水平。我們確實看到了良好的反彈，先進材料的利潤更加正常化，抵消了建築活動令人失望的低迷和關稅不確定性，特別是在聚氨酯領域。

As we step back and look at the macro condition, it appears that the volatility caused by tariff and trade disputes over the past few months is starting to dissipate at least as of 12 hours ago. I believe that inventories remain very low in most of our downstream supply chain, while consumer confidence seems to be muted. We look into the third quarter, we see neither reason to panic nor to be overly optimistic. However, long term, we do anticipate an improvement in construction and perhaps some gradual change as China seems to be focusing more on their overcapacity.

當我們回顧宏觀情勢時，似乎過去幾個月關稅和貿易爭端造成的波動至少從 12 小時前開始消散。我認為，我們大部分下游供應鏈的庫存仍然很低，而消費者信心似乎也很低。展望第三季度，我們既沒有理由恐慌，也沒有理由過度樂觀。然而，從長遠來看，我們確實預計建築業將有所改善，並且可能出現一些漸進的變化，因為中國似乎更加關注其產能過剩問題。

Our focus will continue to be on our balance sheet. To this end, we will continue to be extremely prudent on spending capital beyond our normalized run rate of safety, maintenance and reliability. We remain focused on our cost structure and making sure that our business expenses are in line with market conditions and our cash generation.

我們的重點將繼續放在資產負債表上。為此，我們將繼續非常謹慎地支出超出安全、維護和可靠性正常運作率的資本。我們仍然專注於我們的成本結構，並確保我們的業務支出與市場條件和現金產生一致。

Our aggressive inventory and working capital focus allowed us to generate positive cash flow in the second quarter. This cost us about $25 million of EBITDA in the second quarter. This charge was offset by reduced bonus accruals and other smaller one-time benefits. This inventory impact will be less in the third quarter, again, offset by bonus accruals, as markets improve or raw materials drop in value, we want to make sure that we're in a position to take advantage as soon as possible.

我們積極關注庫存和營運資本，這使我們在第二季度產生了正現金流。這導致我們第二季的 EBITDA 損失約 2500 萬美元。這筆費用被減少的獎金和其他較小的一次性福利所抵消。第三季庫存影響將會較小，同樣會被獎金累積所抵消，隨著市場好轉或原材料價值下降，我們希望確保我們能夠盡快利用這一優勢。

We will operate our business to create value over volume to the extent that we can. We continue to review our asset portfolio and engage with shareholders. The last thing we want to be doing is sitting around waiting for things to get better.

我們將在經營業務時，盡可能創造價值而非數量。我們將繼續審查我們的資產組合併與股東接觸。我們最不想做的事就是坐著等待事情變得更好。

Over the next few quarters, we will see usual seasonality, but also the possible influences of higher tariffs and duties for MDI coming into North American market: a possible interest rate cut, the benefits of more of our cost reductions falling to the bottom line and hopefully, a greater focus on prices over volume. In short, we will manage our balance sheet as effectively as possible while also pushing for better P&L outcomes.

在接下來的幾個季度中，我們將看到通常的季節性，但也可能受到北美市場 MDI 關稅和稅費提高的影響：可能出現利率下調，更多成本削減帶來的好處將體現在利潤上，並且希望更多地關注價格而不是數量。簡而言之，我們將盡可能有效地管理我們的資產負債表，同時努力實現更好的損益結果。

With that, operator, why don't we open the line up for any questions.

接線員，既然如此，我們為什麼不打開熱線來回答任何問題呢？

(Operator Instructions) Kevin McCarthy, Vertical Research Partners.

（操作員指示）Kevin McCarthy，Vertical Research Partners。

Thank you and good morning.

謝謝，早安。

Peter, would you comment on MDI utilization rates in the second quarter and how you see those progressing into the third quarter for the industry as well as Huntsman?

彼得，您能否評論一下第二季的 MDI 利用率？您如何看待該行業以及亨斯邁在第三季的進展？

Yes, as much, Kevin, a very good question, something that we struggle with because there's not a great deal of information as to how people are running their plant and what capacity they write in their plant. Obviously, with the tariff situation, and so forth with product that was coming into North America from China. That product is either being scaled back in capacity or going into other markets. We're not seeing a lot of that product, for instance, showing up in Europe, which is something that of us feared a couple of months ago would be the case.

是的，凱文，這是一個非常好的問題，這也是我們一直在努力解決的問題，因為關於人們如何運作他們的工廠以及他們在工廠中投入了多少產能，我們掌握的資訊並不多。顯然，由於關稅情況等原因，從中國進入北美的產品也受到影響。該產品要么正在縮減產能，要么正在進入其他市場。例如，我們在歐洲沒有看到很多這類產品，而幾個月前我們就擔心會發生這種情況。

So it really is quite a fluid question. I would say that, by and large, the industry is operating somewhere in the low to mid 80 percentile, that's going to probably be a little bit higher than that in North America, perhaps a little bit lower than that in China. But that's -- I believe that's about where we are today.

所以這確實是一個相當不確定的問題。我想說的是，總體而言，該行業的營運水平處於 80% 的低點到中位數之間，這可能比北美略高一點，也許比中國略低一點。但這就是——我相信這就是我們今天的處境。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

Patrick Cunningham, Citi.

花旗銀行的派崔克‧坎寧安。

Hi, good morning, and thanks for taking my question.

大家好，早安，感謝您回答我的問題。

Can you give us an update on how your order books have progressed in July? I think we're hearing some mixed signals on sort of if things are stable or things are getting worse in July? And what are some of the conversations you're having from larger customers in auto and building and construction given the recent tariff implementation?

您能否向我們介紹一下七月訂單的進展？我認為我們聽到了一些混合信號，關於七月份情況是穩定還是會變得更糟？鑑於最近實施的關稅，您與汽車和建築業的大客戶進行了哪些交流？

I think that stable would probably be the best singular descriptions of what we're seeing across the board. I mean there are some pockets here and there just anecdotally. I think that there are a number of truckload orders rail, which you tell you that people are ordering just in time. We should tell you that inventories are probably lower than usual.

我認為穩定可能是對我們所看到的整體情況最好的單一描述。我的意思是，這裡和那裡有一些軼事。我認為有很多卡車的鐵路訂單，你告訴你人們正在及時訂購。我們應該告訴您，庫存可能比平常低。

In my personal opinion, I believe that the supply chains are pretty thin right now. People in times of uncertainty, especially where the overall energy market the energy structure is down from where it was 6 months ago. People are probably not going to be holding a lot of inventory on the expectation that the energy costs will be coming down, chemical costs and so forth.

我個人認為，目前的供應鏈相當薄弱。人們處於不確定的時期，尤其是整體能源市場和能源結構較六個月前有所下降。人們可能不會持有大量庫存，因為他們預期能源成本、化學品成本等將會下降。

So I think that it's very thin right now and people are kind of ordering just what they need for the next 30 days or so. But right now, I'm not seeing a pickup that would give me a great deal of optimism. Conversely, I'm not seeing a big drop off in any one area that would give me to pessimism.

所以我認為現在的情況非常糟糕，人們只是在訂購未來 30 天左右所需的東西。但目前，我還沒有看到能讓我感到十分樂觀的復甦。相反，我沒有看到任何一個領域出現讓我感到悲觀的大幅下滑。

Great, very helpful.

非常好，很有幫助。

And, Peter, you seem to be optimistic on potential China supply rationalization, but it seems there's still pretty healthy capacity build expectations in MDI. So where do you see this potentially having the most significant impact in terms of the key chains or what it might mean for Huntsman's earnings levels going forward?

彼得，你似乎對中國潛在的供應合理化持樂觀態度，但似乎 MDI 的產能建設預期仍然相當健康。那麼，您認為這可能會對關鍵環節產生哪些最重大的影響，或者對亨斯邁未來的獲利水準意味著什麼？

Well, I would say that as we think about Chinese capacity and so for that -- China where you have the greatest concentration of production continues to be our most profitable market for MDI and our business in China is performing quite well in comparison to North America and their very well comparison to Europe. So I think that there's a combination probably of volume discipline, pricing discipline and what have you. And we're also seeing some greater trade movements and so forth.

嗯，我想說，當我們考慮中國的產能時——中國是生產最集中的國家，它仍然是我們最賺錢的 MDI 市場，與北美相比，我們在中國的業務表現相當不錯，與歐洲相比也非常好。所以我認為，這可能是產量紀律、定價紀律和其他因素的組合。我們也看到了一些更大的貿易動向等等。

At the time as we look at the first six months of this year, we've seen Chinese imports into North America of MDI virtually stop for some reason, we've seen imports coming in from Europe of all places, increase. Now that's not offsetting each other one for one, obviously. But -- so there are some rather unusual trade patterns. But by and large, I don't think there's anything terribly surprising to taking place right now.

當我們回顧今年前六個月時，我們發現中國對北美的 MDI 進口量由於某種原因幾乎停止了，而來自歐洲的進口量卻在增加。顯然，這並不是一一抵消的。但是——存在一些相當不尋常的貿易模式。但總的來說，我認為現在不會發生任何令人驚奇的事情。

Jeff Zekauskas, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的 Jeff Zekauskas。

Thanks very much.

非常感謝。

I think earlier in the call, you said that utilization rates in polyurethanes were in the low to mid-80s. Is that where your utilization rates are?

我認為在早些時候的電話會議中，您曾說過聚氨酯的利用率在 80% 左右。您的利用率是那樣嗎？

Yes. I'm not sure that we're too dissimilar from -- they probably be -- we run our plant in China at pretty high rates because we've got good market demand there. The automotive sector in China continues to perform quite well. And everything else is pretty stable. I wouldn't say that it's growing through the roof.

是的。我不確定我們與他們有太大不同——可能不同——我們以相當高的速度運營我們在中國的工廠，因為我們在那裡有良好的市場需求。中國汽車產業持續表現良好。其餘一切都相當穩定。我不會說它正在飛速增長。

Europe obviously continues to struggle. In North America, we're probably running in the mid-80s, give or take a few percentage points. So I'm not sure that we're terribly different than most of our peers.

歐洲顯然仍在苦苦掙扎。在北美，我們的成長率大概在 80 年代中期，上下浮動幾個百分點。所以我不確定我們與大多數同齡人有什麼不同。

What are your utilization rates in Europe?

你們在歐洲的使用率是多少？

Those would probably be around 80%.

這些大概佔80%左右。

Frank Mitsch, Fermium Research.

弗蘭克米奇，費米研究中心。

Hey, good morning.

嘿，早安。

Hey, Peter, what are your latest thoughts on the dividend?

嘿，彼得，你對股息的最新想法是什麼？

Well, Frank, this is obviously something that our board looks at very carefully, and they look at it not just on a quarterly basis, but we have discussions on a monthly basis.

嗯，弗蘭克，這顯然是我們董事會非常仔細地考慮的事情，他們不僅每季考慮一次，而且我們每個月都會進行討論。

We look at the steps that we're taking around cash generation as a company, demonstrative from this last quarter. And as we look into the second half of the year, we have further steps we'll be taking on cash generation and so forth. We feel that we're in a pretty good place right now.

我們來看看我們公司在現金創造方面所採取的措施，從上個季度就可以看出。展望下半年，我們將在現金創造等方面採取進一步措施。我們覺得我們現在的處境非常好。

We obviously want to be in a place where perhaps at the top of the cycle, people are saying, well, you ought to be doing more. At the bottom of the cycle, people -- it probably will be on the higher end, given the volatility of our portfolio. So I think that for the time being, that we feel comfortable -- harmful to our balance sheet.

我們顯然希望處於這樣一個位置：也許在周期的頂峰，人們會說，好吧，你應該做得更多。在週期的底部，考慮到我們投資組合的波動性，它可能會處於較高端。所以我認為，就目前而言，我們感覺舒服——但這對我們的資產負債表有害。

Understood.

明白了。

So how much longer -- given all the actions you're taking on the cash side and shoring up your balance sheet, how much longer do you think at this level of earnings -- do you think -- do you feel -- how comfortable do you feel through the end of 2025. Is this a '25 decision at this level of earnings? Is it '26 decision at this level of earnings? I mean, obviously, the assumption is, as you indicated that near term, no reason to panic or be optimistic, but long term, you see things improving. I'm just curious as to how long you feel you would tolerate it at this level of earnings?

那麼，考慮到您在現金方面採取的所有行動以及鞏固資產負債表的措施，您認為在這種盈利水平下，您還能堅持多久？您認為？您感覺如何？到 2025 年底，您感覺如何？在這樣的獲利水準下，這是 25 年的決定嗎？在這樣的獲利水準下，這是 26 年的決定嗎？我的意思是，顯然，假設是，正如您所指出的，短期內沒有理由恐慌或樂觀，但從長遠來看，您會看到情況有所改善。我只是好奇，您覺得在這種收入水平下您還能忍受多久？

Well, I think -- Frank, it's a very good question.

嗯，我認為——弗蘭克，這是一個非常好的問題。

I think that's the question with very limited visibility on earnings that we have right now, given the volatility around tariffs and pricing discipline and so forth. It is something that we will be looking at on a quarterly basis. And as we look at probably between now and the end of the year, I think that we have -- I wouldn't say that we've got a very good picture. But I think we've got a fairly decent picture as to where we are I think a dividend is not just the short-term sign of how you feel about it, but it's also a long-term sign.

我認為這是一個問題，考慮到關稅和定價紀律等方面的波動，我們目前的獲利可見度非常有限。我們將每季關注此事。當我們展望從現在到今年年底的情況時，我認為我們已經——我不會說我們已經有了一個很好的圖片。但我認為，我們對目前的狀況已經有了相當清楚的認識，我認為股息不僅僅是你對它的感受的短期標誌，而且也是一個長期標誌。

And I think that if we get into particularly into early next year, and we see that there's another muted cycle or a global recession or a muted cycle on construction, for example, or we're in a global recession. Things have gotten worse and don't appear to be getting any better. I think the Board will make appropriate decisions. But at that point, -- at this point, when we look at our cash generation, what we're working on, where focus is and where we think the overall company is going, we feel that we're in a good position.

我認為，如果我們進入明年年初，我們會看到另一個低迷的周期，或者全球經濟衰退或建築業的低迷週期，或者我們正處於全球經濟衰退之中。情況變得越來越糟，而且似乎沒有任何好轉的跡象。我認為董事會會做出適當的決定。但在那時，當我們審視我們的現金創造、我們正在做的事情、重點在哪裡以及我們認為整個公司的發展方向時，我們覺得我們處於一個良好的位置。

Vincent Andrews, Morgan Stanley.

摩根士丹利的文森安德魯斯。

Thank you. Good morning.

謝謝。早安.

Peter, I wonder if we could talk about what you think trade finality means and what your customers think. So in other words, like can we get to a point where the trade war is somehow resolved? And what does that mean? Does it mean we have agreements with all these countries, including China. And that's it, and we all know what things are, and that's the moment where life goes on and people go back to purchasing and so forth in a normal manner?

彼得，我想知道我們是否可以談談您認為交易終結性意味著什麼以及您的客戶的想法。換句話說，我們能否以某種方式解決貿易戰？那這意味著什麼？這是否意味著我們與包括中國在內的所有這些國家都達成了協議。就是這樣，我們都知道事情是怎麼樣的，這就是生活繼續進行、人們恢復正常購物等等的時刻？

Or do you think there's always going to be some uncertainty within the current construct just because these things can keep changing. They can keep evolving or people don't abide by it and so that we're going to -- we'll wind up staying in a more cautious purchasing and customer behavior period for a longer period of time even if there's any sort of resolution. How are you thinking about it? And what do you hear from your customers?

或者您是否認為當前的結構中總是會存在一些不確定性，因為這些事情會不斷變化。它們可以不斷發展，或者人們不會遵守它，因此，即使有任何解決方案，我們也將在更長的時間內處於更謹慎的購買和客戶行為時期。您覺得怎麼樣？您從客戶那裡聽到了什麼？

Well, you're asking me, and I mean this with absolutely no disrespect, but you're asking me to get into the Head of the Administration present in place, which I think is an impossible analysis. But I would say broadly that the US economy and our customers, our suppliers don't -- our biggest issue is volatility.

好吧，你問我，我這樣問絕對沒有任何不敬的意思，但是你要求我深入分析當時的行政首腦，我認為這是不可能的。但我想說的是，美國經濟和我們的客戶、我們的供應商都沒有——我們最大的問題是波動性。

If we're going to pay higher tariffs, if they're going to be duties, they're going to be barriers, whatever, let's figure out what they are. Let's work around them, work through them, work with them, do what we need to do.

如果我們要支付更高的關稅，如果它們就是關稅，它們就是壁壘，不管怎樣，讓我們弄清楚它們是什麼。讓我們圍繞它們開展工作，解決它們，與它們合作，做我們需要做的事情。

But is just -- it's kind of like with raw material prices. I can live with $100 crude oil, I'd rather not, but I mean, we can. If we know that's going to be the new normal or something close to that. What is very difficult is when you have a market that goes from $100 to $30 to $100 and you're dealing with a massive working capital changes it. That's not unlike trade policies. And particularly with the long supply chains that we have around the world today, it's very volatile.

但這有點像是原物料價格。我可以接受原油價格為 100 美元，我寧願不接受，但我的意思是，我們可以。如果我們知道這將成為新常態或接近新常態。非常困難的是，當你的市場價格從 100 美元跌到 30 美元再跌到 100 美元時，你還要應對巨大的營運資金變化。這與貿易政策並無不同。特別是考慮到當今全球的供應鏈很長，它非常不穩定。

Now, when you look at the case of Huntsman, and the impact on Huntsman, by and large, as a company, we don't move a lot of products overseas. Trade doesn't impact this company all that much. It trade barriers and trade duties. With our raw material suppliers, most of our raw materials are supplied within region. And we don't hear a lot of noise from our raw material suppliers.

現在，當你看看亨斯邁的案例及其對亨斯邁的影響時，總的來說，作為一家公司，我們不會將很多產品轉移到海外。貿易對這家公司的影響不大。它是貿易壁壘和貿易關稅。我們的原料供應商大部分原料都是在區域內供應的。我們並沒有聽到原料供應商的太多聲音。

I think from the raw material side, no, not a big deal from ourselves, not a big deal. Now, I get down to our customers. automotive completely all over the place. We look at the trade in aerospace and the impact that, that's having from one negotiation to another. You look at the supply chains that are going into the construction materials market, timber from Canada and everything.

我認為從原料方面來說，不，從我們自己來說，不是什麼大問題，不是什麼大問題。現在，我開始向我們的客戶介紹汽車。汽車已經遍布各地。我們關注航空航天貿易及其對每次談判的影響。你看看進入建築材料市場的供應鏈，來自加拿大的木材等等。

The customers, the further downstream you go, the greater volatility there is. The closer you get to the consumer, you're going to see even greater volatility and uncertainty. So I'm not sure anybody really benefits from that volatility. And the consistent message I hear, not just in the US but around the world, is whatever it's going to be, let's get to that point, let's figure out what it is and we can deal with it. And so I believe that's ultimately where we're going to be headed.

對客戶來說，越往下游走，波動性就越大。你越接近消費者，就會看到更大的波動性和不確定性。所以我不確定是否有人真正從這種波動中受益。我聽到的一致訊息是，不僅在美國，而且在世界各地，無論它是什麼，讓我們達到那個目標，讓我們弄清楚它是什麼，然後我們就可以處理它。所以我相信這就是我們最終要去的方向。

John Roberts, Mizuho.

瑞穗的約翰羅伯茲。

Thanks.

謝謝。

Peter, the prepared remarks mentioned Advanced Materials is the primary focus for bolt-on acquisitions. I don't expect that you'd be making any bolt-on acquisitions near term. But are you no longer interested in Huntsman Building Services or Huntsman Building Systems, HBS as an area long term?

彼得，準備好的發言中提到先進材料是附加收購的主要焦點。我預計您近期不會進行任何附加收購。但是，您是否不再對亨斯邁建築服務公司或亨斯邁建築系統、HBS 作為一個長期領域感興趣？

Well, I think I learned from my father a long time ago, you never say never in the area of M&A. But at the same time, you do have to have strategy. You can't just look and buy anything that is available. I think that as we look at where we want to be moving as a company. We want to be able to take advantage of adhesives.

嗯，我想我很久以前就從我父親那裡學到了，在併購領域，你永遠不要說永遠。但同時，你必須有策略。您不能只是看看然後就購買任何可用的東西。我認為，當我們考慮公司未來的發展方向時。我們希望能夠充分利用黏合劑。

I want to be taking advantage of aerospace, lightweighting, energy conservation. And as we look at our most stable lens of our business, as we go down and we look at electronics, we look at elastomers as we look at our adhesives, lightweighting, carbon fiber, composite materials. So those are all areas, I think, for us that we've been able to build a nice platform, and we'd like to continue to do that.

我想利用航空航太、輕量化和節能的優勢。當我們審視我們業務中最穩定的鏡頭時，當我們深入研究電子產品時，我們會專注於彈性體，專注於黏合劑、輕量化、碳纖維和複合材料。所以我認為，對我們來說，這些都是我們能夠建立良好平台的領域，我們希望繼續這樣做。

Now you look at something like polyurethanes and of course, within our Polyurethane business, we have elastomers we have some of those applications. So that are further downstream. Those businesses are the best performing parts of our polyurethane business today. So I don't want to sit here and say that we'd never do anything in polyurethanes. But if we do, it would probably be something that would complement that into the business more so than the more volatile and commodity side of things.

現在你來看看聚氨酯之類的東西，當然，在我們的聚氨酯業務中，我們有彈性體，我們有一些這樣的應用。所以那是更下游的地方。這些業務是我們目前聚氨酯業務中表現最好的部分。所以我不想坐在這裡說我們永遠不會在聚氨酯領域做任何事情。但如果我們這樣做，它可能會成為一種對業務的補充，而不是更具波動性和商品性的方面。

David Begleiter, Deutsche Bank.

大衛‧貝格萊特，德意志銀行。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Peter, do you expect the tariffs you now have on Chinese MDI to lead to exploring a new US MDI plant not by you, but maybe a competitor?

彼得，您是否認為現在對中國 MDI 徵收的關稅會導致您的競爭對手而不是您在美國建立新的 MDI 工廠？

Well, I can only give you -- okay, I will tell you, it will not lead to a new plant by Huntsman. I can -- at least not while I have anything to do with managing the company. But what competition decides to do, I have no idea. I personally believe that there's more than enough MDI in the world today, and we'll be just fine. But I if you put barriers up around the US.

好吧，我只能告訴你——好吧，我會告訴你，這不會導致亨斯邁建立新工廠。我可以——至少在我參與管理公司時不會。但我不知道競爭對手決定做什麼。我個人認為，當今世界上的 MDI 已經足夠多了，我們會過得很好。但如果你在美國周圍設置障礙。

On imports, let's remember that the US also exports its MDI in the markets and for instance, into Latin America and into Canada and so forth. You've got to -- you've also got to realize it if you're putting imported materials are going into Latin America and Canada and so forth.

關於進口，我們要記住，美國也向市場出口其 MDI，例如拉丁美洲和加拿大等。你必須——你也必須意識到，如果你把進口材料運往拉丁美洲和加拿大等地。

There's less export from the US I think that a lot of people can make a mistake by just drawing a circle around the United States and somehow thinking that that's going to be this fortress that what's in the United States stays within the United States and nothing can penetrate it from Europe or any place else. Like I said, trades a messy subject. And I don't I think presently, the world's got plenty of MDI capacity doesn't need anymore.

美國的出口減少了，我認為很多人可能會犯一個錯誤，他們只是在美國周圍畫了一個圈，並不知何故認為這將是一個堡壘，美國的東西就只能留在美國境內，沒有任何東西可以從歐洲或任何其他地方滲透進來。就像我說的，交易是一個混亂的話題。我認為目前世界上有足夠的 MDI 產能，不再需要了。

Got it.

知道了。

And just one more on aerospace. We are seeing production rates increase I know it's a mix for you guys with wide-body versus narrow-body. But when do you expect the stronger build rate cycle to impact your business specifically?

再說一個關於航空航天的問題。我們看到生產率正在提高，我知道對你們來說，寬體飛機和窄體飛機是混合的。但是您預計更強勁的建造率週期何時會對您的業務產生具體影響？

I think it will probably be in the next -- within the next couple of quarters, next three, four, five quarters.

我認為可能會在接下來的幾季、接下來的三、四、五個季度內。

The reason that you've got to make sure that you understand the difference between deliveries and build rate. And when an airline says that we're delivering eight airplanes, for example, without getting into any particular like -- how many of those airplanes have been sitting already built and have been sitting on the tarmac waiting for FAA or European inspections and certification. How many are planes that were built months or quarters ago? And how many of those planes were built this month.

您必須確保自己了解交付率和建造率之間的差異。例如，當一家航空公司表示我們將交付八架飛機時，我們不會透露具體數量——其中有多少架飛機已經建造完畢並停在停機坪上等待美國聯邦航空局或歐洲的檢查和認證。有多少架飛機是幾個月前或幾季前製造的？本月製造了多少架飛機？

And so when you say that there are eight planes that are being delivered I want to make sure that we're focused on the build rate versus the delivery rate. I'd like to see that the delivery rate up because the airlines seem to move inventory. You go up to the Boeing field, you can just look at it on Google Earth. They've got literally scores of 777 access, the next generation of planes that aren't even flying yet. They've got scores of these things that have been sitting there for years, waiting for federal waiting for federal certification.

因此，當您說有八架飛機正在交付時，我想確保我們關注的是建造率而不是交付率。我希望看到運送率上升，因為航空公司似乎在轉移庫存。你去波音機場，在谷歌地球上就可以看到它。他們確實擁有大量 777 的使用權，這是尚未飛行的下一代飛機。他們有許多這些東西已經放在那裡好幾年了，等待聯邦政府的認證。

So -- and that's going to be an important application for our materials when that plane is being fully built. But you're going to have to clear out a lot of stock before you get to -- what I would consider to be a normalized run rate. So sorry, it's a laborious answer, but there is a difference between a number of planes that are delivered and the number of planes that are manufactured and the inventory of those planes that are sitting about waiting to be finished certified and sent to a customer.

所以——當飛機完全建造時，這將是我們材料的重要應用。但在達到我認為的正常運行率之前，你必須清理大量庫存。很抱歉，這是一個費力的答案，但交付的飛機數量和製造的飛機數量以及等待完成認證並發送給客戶的飛機庫存之間存在差異。

Salvador Tiano, Bank of America.

薩爾瓦多·蒂亞諾，美國銀行。

Yes, thank you very much.

是的，非常感謝。

So firstly, I want to go to the closure of the maleic anhydride facility in Europe. And just if you can tell us a little bit about how -- what was your process and how things are folded there mostly, because when you started the strategic review, you mentioned that you explicitly undertook this action because you received them, so listed interest in the facility. So what happened, I guess, in the meantime, and you decided to shut it down instead?

首先，我想談談歐洲馬來酸酐工廠的關閉情況。如果您能告訴我們一些關於您的流程以及事情主要如何展開的信息，因為當您開始戰略審查時，您提到您明確採取了這一行動，因為您收到了它們，所以列出了對該設施的興趣。那麼，我想，在此期間發生了什麼事，導致您決定將其關閉？

Well, we originally looked to see if there would be a better owner of that facility than us. And we looked at options of selling it. We look at options of keeping it. We reviewed -- I think we reviewed every option imaginable. The last thing you ever want to do is be in a position where you're having to close an asset.

嗯，我們最初想看看是否有比我們更好的設施所有者。我們研究了出售它的選擇。我們研究了保留它的選擇。我們審查了——我想我們審查了所有可以想到的選擇。你最不想做的事情就是處於必須關閉資產的境地。

And when we looked at the reliability of that facility and the cost of that facility, the lack of competitiveness in the European market. We determined that the facility was unsellable and we made the decision to shut it down. Not our preferred vision, obviously, but one that we felt we have no alternative given the overall market conditions and so forth that we're there.

當我們考慮該設施的可靠性和成本時，我們發現該設施在歐洲市場上缺乏競爭力。我們認定該設施無法出售，因此決定將其關閉。顯然，這不是我們想要的願景，但考慮到我們所處的整體市場狀況等，我們認為我們別無選擇。

And recognize that from maleic 85% of the cost of maleic is butane that's going back into the high energy costs, which exist in Europe and we don't see those materially changing going forward and hence, the decision that Peter outlined.

並且認識到，從馬來酸來看，85% 的馬來酸成本是丁烷，而丁烷又會轉化為歐洲的高能源成本，我們認為這些成本在未來不會發生實質性變化，因此，做出了 Peter 所概述的決定。

Perfect.

完美的。

And if I may ask about the future of your European footprint, not on a little bit more downstream polyurethanes, but on the core MBI Rotterdam facility, I mean there's a bunch of PO shutdowns, a number of them more likely to come as well. So at what point do you think that European demand may permanently be impaired for MDI and there may not be enough demand for your own facilities there?

如果我可以問一下你們在歐洲的未來發展，不是關於下游聚氨酯，而是關於核心的 MBI 鹿特丹工廠，我的意思是有很多 PO 工廠關閉，其中一些也可能會關閉。那麼，您認為什麼時候歐洲對 MDI 的需求可能會永久受損，並且對您在那裡的設施的需求可能不足？

I think that we have either the lowest or among the lowest production sites in Europe. And I view that side is going to be competitive relative to other European producers for some years to come. I would be -- if we get to a point where we can't justify the operations of our European facility, I think that there'll probably be other facilities that will come to that conclusion before we do. However, we do continue to look at all of our operating costs there. We look at our operating viability.

我認為我們的生產基地是歐洲最低的，或屬於歐洲最低的生產基地之一。我認為在未來幾年內，中國相對於其他歐洲生產商仍將具有競爭力。我會說——如果我們到了無法證明我們歐洲工廠運作合理​​性的地步，我認為其他工廠可能會比我們更早得出同樣的結論。然而，我們確實會繼續關注那裡的所有營運成本。我們關注的是我們的經營可行性。

And -- but I see longer term, as I see today, it's a very limited vision. But as I see today, that's a site that we're going to continue to operate and it's a segment of the market and polyurethanes that we're going to continue to feed.

但從長遠來看，正如我今天所看到的，這是一個非常有限的願景。但正如我今天所看到的，我們將繼續經營該站點，並且我們將繼續為其提供聚氨酯市場的一部分。

Josh Spector, UBS.

瑞銀的喬許·斯佩克特。

Yeah, hi, good morning.

是的，你好，早安。

I wanted to ask in Advanced Materials. You cited power and industrial markets helping lift the EBITDA in the quarter. Curious how much of that you'd frame as structural improvement. It seems like maybe that's the case in power is pull forward some cyclicality there and what's being baked into 3Q?

我想在《先進材料》上提問。您提到電力和工業市場幫助提升了本季的 EBITDA。好奇你會把其中多少內容視為結構改進。看起來，也許權力的情況就是將一些週期性提前，那麼第三季又會產生什麼影響呢？

I think what we saw in the second quarter was a more normalized run rate rather than a one-time basis.

我認為我們在第二季度看到的是更正常的運行率，而不是一次性的運行率。

And as you continue to see power, I think we'll continue to be a very stable platform. I think aerospace is going to continue to improve is the build rates start stabilizing more, given my earlier comments and so forth. Again, that's not to say that you won't see a bit of volatility, but certainly nothing like what we're seeing in the other divisions.

隨著你繼續看到力量，我認為我們將繼續成為一個非常穩定的平台。鑑於我之前的評論等等，我認為航空航太業將繼續改善，建造率將開始更加穩定。再說一次，這並不是說你不會看到一點波動，但肯定不會像我們在其他部門看到的那樣。

So I'd say that as you look at the second quarter, as we look into the third quarter, as we said in our prepared remarks, you'll see a little bit of seasonality. I think this is largely a European business. And Europeans have a tendency to take a few days off in August. And so you might see a bit of impact on that.

所以我想說，當你看第二季時，當我們看第三季時，正如我們在準備好的評論中所說的那樣，你會看到一點季節性。我認為這在很大程度上是一項歐洲業務。歐洲人傾向於在八月休息幾天。因此，您可能會看到一些影響。

Makes sense.

有道理。

And if I could ask quickly for Phil. You had a $7 million benefit in Performance Products from what appeared to be an accrual reversal or something like of that sort. Was that expected in 2Q? And is there anything else like that to call out in the 3Q?

我是否可以快速詢問一下菲爾。您在 Performance Products 中獲得了 700 萬美元的收益，這似乎是應計逆轉或類似的事情。這是第二季預期的結果嗎？第三季還有什麼類似的事情需要強調嗎？

No, that was a reversal loss contingency accrual related to our US operations, Josh, that we had in Performance Products. I think we've called out as well in the second quarter that we did take a negative impact from asset utilization related to the reductions in our inventory.

不，喬希，那是與我們美國業務相關的逆轉損失應急應計項目，這是我們在 Performance Products 中擁有的。我認為我們在第二季也曾指出，與庫存減少相關的資產利用率確實為我們帶來了負面影響。

That was offset by the release of our bonus accruals as we obviously reassessed our bonus accruals for the year. As you move into quarter three, I think each of those three items will roughly balance themselves out, and you won't have a significant impact between Q2 and Q3 related to those.

由於我們顯然重新評估了今年的獎金累積額，因此這被我們發放的獎金累積額所抵消。當進入第三季時，我認為這三個項目中的每一個都會大致平衡，並且不會對第二季和第三季產生重大影響。

Mike Sison, Wells Fargo.

富國銀行的麥克·西森。

Hey, good morning guys.

嘿，大家早安。

Peter, when you think about China, they talked about [involution]. Is there a good amount of capacity there that could or maybe should be looked at and maybe taking out that could help the supply/demand situation right now?

彼得，當你想到中國時，他們談到[內卷]。那裡是否有大量的產能可以或應該被考慮，也許可以去除這些產能來幫助改善目前的供需狀況？

Very good question.

非常好的問題。

I think China is -- I've heard more in the last 30 days and having been in the last couple of two, three weeks ago, more discussion in country, certainly that I hear out of country about the government looking at our capacity, looking at older facilities. As I look at the MDI situation in China, most every facility in MDI in China is -- is, I would -- it's not only very good technology, but also some of the largest scale largest, best integrated facilities that are integrated all the way up to energy production, aniline production, coal production, all the way down -- [this is the line, so].

我認為中國——我在過去 30 天裡聽到了更多消息，並且在過去的兩三週裡，國內進行了更多討論，當然我也聽到了國外關於政府正在審查我們的產能和老舊設施的消息。當我觀察中國的 MDI 情況時，我發現中國幾乎所有的 MDI 設施都——我認為——不僅擁有非常好的技術，而且擁有一些最大、整合度最高的設施，涵蓋能源生產、苯胺生產、煤炭生產等各個環節。——[這是線路，所以]。

I think that there will be a number of closures take place in chemical industry over the next year or two or three. I do not believe that, that will be the case for MDI, particularly if you compare the competitiveness of those facilities, with 30-, 40-, 50-year-old facilities that are operating in Europe that are subscale and having to struggle with much higher raw material costs and supply chain costs and so forth.

我認為未來一兩年或三年內化工產業將會出現大量企業倒閉的情況。我不相信 MDI 會出現這種情況，特別是如果你將這些設施的競爭力與歐洲那些已有 30 年、40 年甚至 50 年曆史的設施進行比較，這些設施規模較小，而且必須應對高得多的原材料成本和供應鏈成本等。

Mike, one area we are looking at is our joint venture in China on P2P has been significantly under pressure. It could be that over the coming years, there could be some of the older MTBE producing facilities that come out, but that will be over a number of years.

麥克，我們正在關注的一個領域是，我們在中國的 P2P 合資企業面臨巨大的壓力。未來幾年可能會有一些較老的 MTBE 生產設施倒閉，但這還需要幾年的時間。

Got it.

知道了。

And then maybe a longer-term question, Peter. It's -- we've been in this trough for quite some time. and maybe it takes a little bit longer to get to a higher EBITDA number for the company. But do you feel good that there is pretty good upside in EBITDA to a mid-cycle longer term? And how do you sort of think about getting there? What needs to happen?

然後也許是一個長期問題，彼得。我們已經處於這個低谷很長一段時間了。也許公司需要更長的時間才能達到更高的 EBITDA 數字。但是，您是否認為從中期來看，EBITDA 有相當好的上升空間？您認為該如何實現這項目標？需要發生什麼？

Well, I think that as you look at it, we always like to go back and look at half cycles and say that we're repeating we certainly can repeat the cycles, but the reasoning that goes behind the cycles, whether it's an active war, whether it's energy volatility, whether it's an implosion or an explosion, two different things. In the housing market, the number of unsold homes today are almost where they were in 2007 and '08, but for completely different reasons. And therefore, I think the outcome of this cycle will -- the timing of it and the reasoning behind that outcome will be completely different.

嗯，我認為，當你看到它時，我們總是喜歡回顧並觀察半個週期，並說我們正在重複，我們當然可以重複這些週期，但周期背後的推理，無論是一場活躍的戰爭，無論是能量波動，無論是內爆還是爆炸，都是兩件不同的事情。在房地產市場，目前未售出的房屋數量幾乎與 2007 年和 2008 年持平，但原因卻完全不同。因此，我認為這個週期的結果——它的時機和背後的原因將完全不同。

As you look at -- the other thing that's unique about this cycle is that we've got kind of major economic blocks in the world, and all three of those are being hit for different reasons, the US around, in my opinion, at least as it relates to this segment of the chemical industry. It's largely around interest rates and affordable housing. And I believe that is something that will be addressed -- can be addressed. And it could happen very -- I'm not going to say overnight, but if interest rates, if you saw a meaningful change in interest rate, something that Economist, the experts, have now been talking about for what, three, four years.

正如你所看到的——這個週期的另一個獨特之處是，世界上存在著幾個主要的經濟區塊，而這三個區塊都因為不同的原因而受到衝擊，在我看來，美國至少在化學工業的這個領域受到了衝擊。這主要與利率和經濟適用房有關。我相信這個問題將會得到解決──能夠得到解決。而且這種情況可能會發生——我不會說一夜之間就會發生，但是如果利率，如果你看到利率發生了有意義的變化，那就是經濟學家和專家們已經談論了三四年的事情。

I think you could see quite a rapid recovery in North America. And that would, I think, take us to normalized levels of MDI, again, not over the course of a quarter, but certainly over the course of a year or something where you're getting much closer to a normalized rate.

我認為你會看到北美出現相當快速的復甦。我認為，這將使我們達到 MDI 的正常水平，同樣，不是在一個季度內，而是在一年或更接近正常率的時間內。

As I look to China and the excess capacity they have in China and the ability to stimulate consumer spending in China, largely from the rebound of an implosion that took place in their housing markets, again, for completely different reasons that we saw in the United States. And what we're seeing in the United States, they're now in probably their fourth going to the fifth year of what I would consider to be a lack of consumer confidence being driven largely by the implosion that you saw in housing value, and overcapacity that was built and to some degree to try to counteract the economic benefits of that housing issue.

當我看到中國及其過剩的產能和刺激中國消費支出的能力時，這主要得益於其房地產市場崩盤後的反彈，而這與我們在美國看到的原因完全不同。而我們在美國看到的情況是，我認為消費者信心的缺乏可能已經持續了第四到第五年，這主要是由於房價暴跌和產能過剩造成的，在某種程度上，這是為了抵消住房問題帶來的經濟利益。

I think longer term, China is going to continue to be a very competitive place. They have a very competitive energy. They've got a vibrant work, well-educated workforce. And I think that China recovers Europe is going to continue to be in an area of volatility, but it will find -- look, Europe is just not going to disappear. Will find its areas of competitiveness, whether it's in aerospace, whether it's in electronics, whether it's in renewable energy and so forth.

我認為從長遠來看，中國仍將是一個競爭非常激烈的國家。他們有很強的競爭意識。他們擁有一支充滿活力、受過良好教育的勞動力。我認為，中國經濟復甦後，歐洲將繼續處於動盪之中，但它會發現——你看，歐洲不會消失。將會找到自己的競爭領域，無論是航空航太、電子、再生能源等等。

And they'll continue to benefit. There'll be a lot of economic dislocation from Europe as they a -- industrial life. A lot of that will end up in North America, the Middle East or in China. And so there'll be this reselling, but I don't see the tide coming back in the same -- for the same reason at the same time in all regions.

他們將繼續受益。隨著歐洲工業化進程的推進，歐洲的經濟將陷入嚴重混亂。其中許多最終將銷往北美、中東或中國。因此，會出現這種轉售現象，但我不認為這種趨勢會因為同樣的原因同時在所有地區回歸。

But of course, you will see a recovery. And you will see for new capacity to be built in this industry to feed future demand, you're going to have to see higher prices, higher margins. And that will precipitate a cycle and a cyclical return. And that element of a recovery has always been the same in past for as to the reason why you see the recovery.

但當然，你會看到復甦。您將會看到，為了滿足未來的需求，該行業將建立新的產能，您將不得不看到更高的價格和更高的利潤率。這將促成一個循環和周期性回報。至於復甦的原因，復甦的要素在過去始終是相同的。

So sorry, that was a long rambling answer, but yes, I believe that there will be a recovery. I think that we'll get back to those normalized levels, probably in the US and in China sooner than in Europe. And I see no reason why we wouldn't be able to do that. And then when we do that, we'll have an even more competitive cost structure that will return even more to the bottom line.

非常抱歉，這是一個冗長而雜亂的回答，但是的，我相信經濟會復甦。我認為我們將恢復到正常水平，可能美國和中國會比歐洲更快。我認為我們沒有理由不能做到這一點。當我們這樣做的時候，我們將擁有更具競爭力的成本結構，從而帶來更多的利潤回報。

We've learned how to operate the company with a lower cost and lower inventory stronger working capital discipline. We've got further downstream capacities that are filling out in Geismar, Louisiana, new capacities and catalysts and so forth that have been built and completed and now going into market in Performance Products and chip cleaning technology and so forth in Performance Products coming into the market. So not only will we see the recovery, but we'll also see some new opportunities from past investments to capitalize on that.

我們已經學會如何以更低的成本、更低的庫存和更強的營運資本紀律來經營公司。我們在路易斯安那州蓋斯瑪擁有進一步的下游產能，新產能和催化劑等已經建成並投入使用，現在正在進入高性能產品市場，晶片清潔技術等高性能產品也正在進入市場。因此，我們不僅會看到復甦，還會看到過去的投資帶來的一些新機會。

Hassan Amed, Alembic Global.

Hassan Amed，Alembic Global。

Morning, Peter and Phil.

早安，彼得和菲爾。

Just wanted to stick to the theme of a recovery, however far it is. In your prepared remarks on the polyurethane side of things, you mentioned that sequentially, volumes were up around 3%. And typically, Q1 to Q2, you see an 8% to 10% sort of uptick in volume. So I'm just trying to get a sense of how far below normal volume levels are we just to get a better sense of as and when that recovery happens, how much higher these volumes can actually go?

我只是想堅持復甦的主題，無論復甦有多遠。在您準備好的關於聚氨酯方面的發言中，您提到，銷量環比增長了約 3%。通常，從第一季到第二季度，交易量會出現 8% 到 10% 的成長。因此，我只是想了解一下，現在交易量比正常水平低多少，以便更好地了解，當復甦發生時，這些交易量實際上可以上升多少？

Yes. I think that for the most part, when we -- when we take out kind of one-time contracts and business that we won in the second quarter, you're probably looking at somewhere between 5% and 8%, that I would say is kind of missing in the numbers. And that typically is around housing and construction. We saw an incredibly anemic housing and construction markets this year. I don't think we've seen anything like this since COVID and since The Great Recession before that.

是的。我認為，在大多數情況下，當我們拿出第二季度贏得的一次性合約和業務時，你可能會看到 5% 到 8% 之間的某個數字，我想說這個數字有點缺失。這通常與住房和建築有關。今年，我們看到住房和建築市場極為低迷。我認為，自從新冠疫情以及之前的大衰退以來，我們從未見過這樣的事情。

So there's -- I think there's a great deal of uncertainty around people wanting to commit to what is usually the largest purchase in their lifetime during times of market volatility and uncertainty and also with higher interest rates.

所以，我認為，在市場動盪和不確定性以及利率上升的時期，人們想要進行一生中最大的一筆購買時，會面臨很大的不確定性。

So I'm very hopeful that those markets will recover early this next year, and we'll be in a much stronger position this next year. But we definitely -- the single biggest impact in the second quarter that was that I think I might say surprise us because we were talking about this on our last call, but was the other lack of seasonality that we typically see at this time around construction.

因此，我非常希望這些市場能夠在明年年初復甦，明年我們的地位將會更加強大。但我們肯定——第二季度最大的單一影響是我認為可能會讓我們感到驚訝的，因為我們在上次電話會議上談到了這一點，但這是我們在建築業此時通常會看到的另一個缺乏季節性的影響。

Understood, very helpful.

明白了，很有幫助。

And as a follow-up, I mean, again, in the prepared remarks for Polyurethanes, you guys talked about how through the course of the quarter, you saw a more intense competitive environment in Europe. And I guess you mentioned driven by domestic producers. So can you just expand on that? And do you see any sort of resolution around that in the near term as well?

作為後續，我的意思是，在關於聚氨酯的準備好的評論中，你們談到了在本季度中，你們如何看到歐洲的競爭環境更加激烈。我想您提到了由國內生產商推動。那你能詳細闡述嗎？您是否認為近期內會有任何解決方案？

Unfortunately, I don't see a great deal of resolution around that. We pushed very aggressively in the second quarter as we did in the first quarter as we did in the quarter previous to that. For better, higher pricing, margin expansion in Europe. And the -- I believe that I can't -- again, I don't know what the decision of our competitors are, but it seems like people are putting volume over value. And moving volume at any price sort of a thing.

不幸的是，我看不到對此有很好的解決方案。我們在第二季採取了非常積極的措施，就像我們在第一季以及前一季所做的那樣。為了在歐洲獲得更好、更高的定價並擴大利潤率。而且——我相信我不能——再說一次，我不知道我們的競爭對手的決定是什麼，但似乎人們更重視數量而不是價值。並且不惜任何代價來移動交易量。

So surprisingly, in Europe, that is today our highest-cost urethane production in the world and our lowest value of MDI in the world. So he kind of got both sides are hitting you.

令人驚訝的是，在歐洲，那裡是當今世界上聚氨酯生產成本最高的地區，也是世界上 MDI 價值最低的地區。所以他覺得雙方都在攻擊你。

So what do we do, Hassan, we continue to focus on the announcements we made, getting our cost base correct and all of the activities that we're doing, including closing some of our some of our facilities there and then work within the competitive environment that's existing.

那麼，哈桑，我們該怎麼做呢？我們將繼續關注我們所做的公告，確保我們的成本基礎正確，以及我們正在進行的所有活動，包括關閉我們在那裡的一些設施，然後在現有的競爭環境中開展工作。

Yes, 85% of our cost reductions right now across the company are focused in this market.

是的，目前我們全公司 85% 的成本削減都集中在這個市場。

Aleksey Yefremov, KeyBanc Capital Markets.

Aleksey Yefremov，KeyBanc 資本市場。

Good morning.

早安.

Peter, I was hoping you could deconstruct for us polyurethanes segment price declines of 5% year over year this quarter. I mean you just talked about Europe, but was this the sole reason for this decline were other regions, particularly that of good. And also from the perspective of just polymeric MDI versus systems or these pieces better or worse than the 5%

彼得，我希望您能為我們分析本季聚氨酯市場價格年減 5% 的原因。我的意思是，您剛才談到了歐洲，但造成這種下降的唯一原因是其他地區，特別是好的地區。而且從聚合 MDI 與系統或這些零件的角度來看，它們比 5% 更好或更差

Yes. I think that we did see a price fall from the first going into the second quarter. We started off the second quarter the beginning of the second quarter, particularly in China, where we've gone from about RMB18,000, RMB18,500 down to about RMB15,000. So it was a 15%, 20% drop in price from the end of the first quarter going into the beginning of the second quarter.

是的。我認為我們確實看到從第一季到第二季價格有所下跌。我們從第二季初開始，特別是在中國，我們的價格從大約 18,000 元人民幣、18,500 元人民幣降至約 15,000 元。因此，從第一季末到第二季初，價格下降了 15% 到 20%。

We came out of that quarter with stabilization a bit of an increase through the quarter and stabilization as we look into the third quarter, I think we're hoping that we'll see some price increases in China with that stabilization getting better. In the US and in Europe, we're just seeing some very competitive pricing dynamics in place A lot of people chasing little volume.

我們在那個季度取得了穩定，整個季度的價格略有上漲，當我們展望第三季度時，我認為我們希望看到中國的價格有所上漲，並且這種穩定會越來越好。在美國和歐洲，我們看到了一些非常有競爭力的定價動態，很多人都在追逐小批量。

Aleksey, if you were looking at the 5% year on year, which I think you are in press release on polyurethanes, you go back to this time last year. It was about RMB18,000 for polymeric and today, we're at about that sort of RMB15,000, RMB16,000. So you've seen a drop of 10% to 15%. It's mostly in the polymeric area, you would have had some pressure on system prices, some on MDI variants. But in general, the move that you've seen is polymeric MDI related.

阿列克謝，如果你關注的是同比增長 5% 這一數字，我想這是你在聚氨酯新聞稿中看到的，你可以追溯到去年這個時候。當時聚合物的價格約為 18,000 元人民幣，而今天的價格約為 15,000 元或 16,000 元。所以你看到了 10% 到 15% 的下降。它主要在聚合物領域，您會在系統價格上面臨一些壓力，在 MDI 變體上也面臨一些壓力。但總的來說，您所看到的走勢與聚合 MDI 有關。

And here, in the past, you've said, that start to US MDI demand -- at least it could be or tariff-related repercussions. Can you give us -- what we need to maybe move to Mexico, Canada or it's been pretty steady?

您過去曾說過，這至少可能會對美國 MDI 需求產生影響，或產生與關稅相關的影響。您能告訴我們—我們需要什麼才能搬到墨西哥、加拿大或一直穩定嗎？

Yes.

是的。

So, Aleks, I think you're asking about the trade flows there and whether some product instead of coming into the United States moves into to Mexico or into Canada. Look, I think we said -- yes, I think we've said if you look through the first sort of 6 months of the year. Clearly, the imports coming into the US are considerably lower.

所以，阿列克斯，我想你問的是那裡的貿易流動情況，以及是否有一些產品不是進入美國而是進入墨西哥或加拿大。瞧，我想我們說過——是的，我想我們說過如果你回顧今年的前 6 個月。顯然，美國的進口量要低得多。

There will be some which would have gone into the Canadian business into the lumber business there. A little bit into it Mexico -- Mexico is not an enormous market here at all and mainly driven by automotive and furniture actually, where in general, you have to spec in.

其中一部分將進入加拿大的木材業務。稍微深入墨西哥——墨西哥根本不是一個巨大的市場，實際上主要由汽車和家具驅動，一般來說，你必須考慮具體情況。

As we said in our earlier remarks, what we've been launching is that whilst the imports have dropped off from China. The European imports into the US have actually increased in that time. And that, coupled with a lower demand environment. Those three elements combined have led to a pricing environment, which is relatively stable rather than say the increases that I think the industry at hopes for.

正如我們在先前的評論中所說，我們一直在採取的措施是，雖然從中國的進口量有所下降。在此期間，歐洲對美國的進口量實際上有所增加。再加上需求環境較低。這三個因素結合在一起，形成了相對穩定的定價環境，而不是像我認為的那樣出現行業所希望的上漲。

Yes, I'd like to say my apologies. Your call was kind of breaking in and out and Phil coming from the UK is used to listening the Scotts and Irish and so forth, so it's better stuff like this.

是的，我想表示歉意。你的通話有點斷斷續續，來自英國的菲爾習慣聽蘇格蘭人和愛爾蘭人等等，所以像這樣的東西更好。

Arun Viswanathan, RBC Capital Markets.

加拿大皇家銀行資本市場 (RBC Capital Markets) 的 Arun Viswanathan。

Great, thanks for taking my question.

太好了，感謝您回答我的問題。

Just wanted to ask about two things. So first off, I understand that, obviously, Huntsman, it's not the -- the world needs another MDI plant, especially under your leadership, Peter. But I guess others may necessarily feel that way -- is there anything else that potentially -- what's kind of the pushing point when others kind of get to the same conclusion that you do? And maybe if you could frame that in whether it be cost per ton or pricing or anything like that. And then similarly, on epoxies, your Advanced Materials business, there's been some exits by others in the BLR market, does that affect your sourcing at all or what can you share there?

只是想問兩件事。首先，我明白，亨斯邁，顯然，世界不需要另一個 MDI 工廠，特別是在你的領導下，彼得。但我想其他人可能必然會有這種感覺——還有其他潛在的因素嗎——當其他人得出與你相同的結論時，推動點是什麼？也許您可以將其定義為每噸成本或定價或諸如此類的東西。同樣，在環氧樹脂、先進材料業務方面，BLR 市場上已經有其他人退出，這是否會影響您的採購，或者您可以分享什麼？

Yes.

是的。

Well, I think that on the BLR side, I'll take that first. On the BLR side, I think that we've got plenty of suppliers we have seen some higher cost facilities that have cut back or slowed down. There's plenty of BLR on the market. And I wouldn't be -- I would assume that that's going to impact our earnings on our Advanced Materials at all the few that have exited.

好吧，我認為在 BLR 方面，我會先考慮這一點。在 BLR 方面，我認為我們有很多供應商，我們已經看到一些成本較高的設施已經削減或放緩。市場上有大量的 BLR。我不會——我認為這會影響我們先進材料業務的收益，因為已經退出的少數公司都這樣做。

On MDL capacity, I just -- Arun, I simply can't imagine what takes place in a board -- in a boardroom when people decide they're going to take $1 billion, $2 billion and invest it in something that's going to take 5 to 7 years to build in a product that we're swimming in today. I don't know maybe they got a crystal ball as to where we're going to be in the decade from now.

關於 MDL 產能，阿倫，我簡直無法想像當人們決定拿出 10 億美元、20 億美元投資於需要 5 到 7 年時間才能打造出我們今天所處的產品時，董事會會議室裡會發生什麼。我不知道他們是否能預測十年後我們將處於什麼位置。

But I guess I can see the rationale that the Chinese have had over the last couple of decades is they wanted to become more independent self-sufficient. I get that. But I get the growth rates and so forth across Europe and North America and even China today, I just don't see any justification for that. So I can't speak to the rationale that we go into a decision like that.

但我想我可以理解中國人在過去幾十年來所追求的理念，那就是他們想要變得更獨立、更自給自足。我明白。但我了解到當今歐洲、北美甚至中國的成長率等，我只是看不出有任何理由這麼做。所以我無法解釋我們做出這樣的決定的理由。

And, Arun, I think there's a reality none of the Western manufacturers as far as we know, have announced any new capacity, major capacity additions and major plants, there may -- have been -- but nothing from a major new plant perspective.

阿倫，我認為，事實上，據我們所知，沒有一家西方製造商宣布過任何新產能、大規模產能增加和大型工廠，可能有，但從大型新工廠的角度來看，沒有任何一家。

Right.

正確的。

But I guess I'm just curious, would they and yourselves get to a place here where that utilization rate remaining in the low 80s or high 70s is just not acceptable and would force some closures. Do you foresee that happening? And -- would it make sense for you guys as well? Appear or not, I guess not just given your position on the cost curve, but do you foresee any supply takeout materializing that way?

但我想我只是好奇，他們和你們自己是否會到達這樣一個境地：利用率保持在 80% 出頭或 70% 出頭是不可接受的，並且會迫使一些工廠關閉。您預見到這種情況會發生嗎？而且──這對你們來說也有意義嗎？無論是否出現，我想不僅僅是考慮到您在成本曲線上的位置，而且您是否預見到任何供應外賣會以這種方式實現？

Yes. I would -- I believe that there are some very high-cost facilities in Europe, but that's just from information that I read publicly. I would have thought that would have happened before now. But it hasn't. Chemical facilities, by and large, are very expensive to shut down.

是的。我相信歐洲有一些成本非常高的設施，但這只是從我公開讀到的資訊中得知的。我原本以為那件事早就發生了。但事實並非如此。整體而言，關閉化工廠的成本非常高昂。

In Europe, it's very problematic when you have to deal with government authorities and so forth. I was going to give my own experience, but I won't -- we don't have time. But it's -- particularly in Europe, it's expensive and particularly in sites where you've got four or five other chemical companies that are dependent on your operations, you're dependent on their operations and you may be able to or want to shut down. But you've got 15-, 20-year supply agreements and offtake agreements and shift site costs and so forth.

在歐洲，當你必須與政府當局等打交道時，事情就會變得非常麻煩。我本來想分享自己的經歷，但我不會講——我們沒有時間。但這是——特別是在歐洲，成本很高，特別是在有四五家其他化學公司依賴於你的運營的地方，你依賴於他們的運營，而你可能能夠或想要關閉它們。但你有 15 年、20 年的供應協議和承購協議以及轉移站點成本等等。

So yes, a lot of these -- it's a tough and very expensive decision to just simply walk away. But I think you're at that point where I can't imagine are not companies today that are looking at those economics and decisions.

所以是的，對很多人來說，簡單地放棄是一個艱難且代價高昂的決定。但我認為，您已經到了我無法想像的地步，今天的公司不會考慮這些經濟因素並做出決定。

Mike Harrison, Seaport Research Partners.

麥克·哈里森，海港研究夥伴。

Great, thanks for taking my question.

太好了，感謝您回答我的問題。

I wanted to see if you could give us some color, Peter, on the comments that we're seeing European MDI being imported into North American markets. Can you just explain what's driving that? And do you expect that to persist into the second half?

彼得，我想看看您是否可以就我們看到歐洲 MDI 被進口到北美市場這一評論給我們一些解釋。您能解釋一下造成這種情況的原因嗎？您預計這種狀況會持續到下半年嗎？

I've got to be honest with you. I can't imagine in my wildest dreams why somebody would do that. But again, I don't sit in the boardroom of I don't have to mock the question. It's a very good question. I can't imagine if you're taking some of the most high cost MDI produced in the world and shipping it, paying costs and duties and everything else.

我必須對你說實話。我做夢也想不到為什麼有人會這麼做。但再次強調，我不會坐在會議室裡，也沒有必要嘲笑這個問題。這是一個非常好的問題。我無法想像如果你要運送世界上生產的一些成本最高的 MDI，並支付成本、關稅和其他一切費用。

I don't know. I don't know why somebody would do that, but it's being done. So that's the market.

我不知道。我不知道為什麼有人會這麼做，但事實就是如此。這就是市場。

No, I actually print up the printed remarks and I wrote down WTS next to that comment that you made in the remarks there.

不，我實際上列印了印刷的評論，並在您在評論中所做的評論旁邊寫下了 WTS。

Yes, I've written that more than what --

是的，我寫的比--

So my other question is just on the MTBE joint venture. You said there was a loss in the second quarter. Is any improvement expected to materialize in the second half? Maybe just give some color on what you're seeing in terms of MTBE margin dynamics.

我的另一個問題是關於 MTBE 合資企業。您說第二季度出現了虧損。預計下半年會出現任何改善嗎？也許只是對您所看到的 MTBE 利潤動態做一些說明。

I think typically, MTBE does its best in the driving season, which is usually the end of the first quarter, second quarter through the third quarter, and gasoline blends, octane values and the cost of raw materials. And again, I think I have a very good knowledge of MTBE in markets where they're going for the next 24 to 48 hours. I would say between now and the end of the year, it's going to be a struggle to see it get much better.

我認為，通常情況下，MTBE 在駕駛季節表現最佳，通常是第一季末、第二季到第三季度，以及汽油混合物、辛烷值和原料成本。再次強調，我認為我對未來 24 至 48 小時內 MTBE 的市場行情非常了解。我想說，從現在到今年年底，情況要好轉將會很困難。

Laurence Alexander, Jefferies.

勞倫斯‧亞歷山大，傑富瑞集團。

Hi, yeah, this is Kevin Estok on for Laurence.

嗨，是的，我是凱文·埃斯托克 (Kevin Estok)，代替勞倫斯 (Laurence)。

So you guys touched on the rate cycle a bit, but I just want to delve into that a little bit. I guess just wondering like from an amount of rate cuts, I guess, how much do you expect it would take to basically turn to construction and consumer durable end markets a bit? Like, so, would you say like maybe it would take 75 basis points in 2025, maybe 75 in the first half of 2026, maybe causing some green shoot to see construction by the back half of '26 and then consumer -- is at 2027 at best?

你們稍微談到了利率週期，但我只想稍微深入探討一下。我只是想知道，從降息幅度來看，您預計需要多少才能轉向建築和耐用消費品終端市場？那麼，您是否認為可能需要在 2025 年增加 75 個基點，在 2026 年上半年增加 75 個基點，從而可能在 2026 年下半年出現一些綠芽，看到建築業復甦，然後消費業復甦——最好是在 2027 年？

Monetary policies really are not my area of expertise. I'll probably defer to Phil on that. But I would just say that it's probably two issues. It's not just it's not just how much is taking place, but also the direction in which it appears to be going.

貨幣政策確實不是我的專業領域。在這一點上我可能會聽從菲爾的意見。但我只想說，這可能是兩個問題。這不僅是發生了多少事情的問題，還有事情發展的方向。

If you see a small rate cut of 25 bps, I'm not sure that's going to catalyze the economy. But if that's going to be the first of two or three expected rate cuts coming, I think that, that could be a very substantial catalyst. But at this point, there's just not a whole lot of visibility that the Fed is giving.

如果利率小幅下調 25 個基點，我不確定這是否會刺激經濟發展。但如果這是預期中的兩到三次降息中的第一次，我認為，這可能是一個非常重要的催化劑。但目前，聯準會給予的明確訊息並不多。

And a key impact that we always watch is you've got the Fed funds rate, but what's that doing for longer-term yields and then ultimately, how is that feeding into the mortgage rates themselves. And we've seen a bit of a disconnect, as we know, between our 10-year yields currently currently -- so we were looking at all those factors. They all need to come down and then get some greater stimulation in construction and move from there.

我們始終關注的一個關鍵影響是聯邦基金利率，但它對長期收益率有何影響，最終又如何影響抵押貸款利率本身。我們知道，目前 10 年期殖利率之間存在一些脫節——因此我們正在考慮所有這些因素。他們都需要下來，然後在建設中獲得更大的刺激，然後從那裡繼續前進。

Thank you.

謝謝。

And, operator, I think we're getting near the top of the hour. Why don't we take one more question?

接線員，我想我們已經快到整點了。我們為什麼不再回答一個問題呢？

Aaron Rosenthal, JPMorgan.

摩根大通的亞倫羅森塔爾。

Hey, good morning and thank you for the time.

嘿，早上好，感謝您抽出時間。

Just wanted to quickly touch on the balance sheet again, I guess it looks like there was additional funding on the revolver during the quarter, I guess, despite our cash flow result and acknowledging the commentary thus far on the dividend in balance sheet. I guess maybe is it just fair to assume that any maybe potential cash shortfall in the second half of the year would be plugged by additional revolver borrowings or are there any other considerations is currently being entertained, perhaps issuing new debt to short liquidity at some point this year?

我只是想再次快速地談一談資產負債表，我想看起來好像本季度循環信貸上有額外的資金，儘管我們有現金流結果，並承認迄今為止對資產負債表中股息的評論。我想，也許可以公平地假設，下半年可能出現的任何現金短缺都會透過額外的循環借款來彌補，或者目前是否有其他考慮，或許在今年某個時候發行新債來彌補流動性短缺？

Yes, Aaron, it's Phil. Thanks for the question. Thanks for being on the call. No, we're not looking at any new debt issuing in the second half of the year. I think you're probably aware of where we sit from a maturity standpoint, which is our revolver matures in May of 2027. We've got our securitization facilities as well, and then our longer-term bond maturities are '29, '31, '34, which is helpful, frankly, in the current trough environment overall.

是的，亞倫，我是菲爾。謝謝你的提問。感謝您接聽電話。不，我們不考慮在今年下半年發行任何新債。我想您可能已經了解我們的成熟度，我們的循環信貸將於 2027 年 5 月到期。我們也有證券化工具，我們的長期債券到期日是 29 年、31 年、34 年，坦白說，這在當前的整體低谷環境中是有幫助的。

Look, on a cash flow basis, last 12 months, we generated $150 million. We did bring in $40 million from our Chinese joint venture liquidation. So theoretically, over the last 12 months, we covered the $170 million of dividend. We'll focus on our cash-generating activities in the second half of the year here and manage everything accordingly. We recognize where we are from a credit rating perspective, and we'll manage within the sub-investment-grade rating category that we are.

從現金流來看，過去 12 個月，我們創造了 1.5 億美元的收入。我們確實從中國合資企業清算中獲得了 4000 萬美元。因此從理論上講，在過去的 12 個月中，我們支付了 1.7 億美元的股息。我們將專注於下半年的現金創造活動，並相應地管理一切。我們從信用評級的角度認識到我們所處的位置，並且我們將在我們所處的次投資級評級類別內進行管理。

Thanks, Joe. We can end the call now.

謝謝喬。我們現在可以結束通話了。

Thank you. This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Enjoy the rest of your day.

謝謝。今天的會議到此結束。現在您可以斷開線路。享受這一天剩下的時間。