淡水河谷 (VALE) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

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We caution you that forward-looking statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties. To obtain information on factors that may lead to results different from those forecast by Vale, please consult the reports Vale files with the US Securities and Exchange Commission, the Brazilian Comissão de Valores Mobiliários, and in particular, the factors discussed under forward-Looking statements and Risk Factors in Vale's Annual Report on Form 20-F.

我們提醒您，前瞻性陳述並非對未來績效的保證，並涉及風險和不確定性。要了解可能導致結果與淡水河谷預測結果不同的因素，請查閱淡水河谷向美國證券交易委員會、巴西證券交易委員會提交的報告，特別是淡水河谷 20-F 表格年度報告中“前瞻性聲明”和“風險因素”部分討論的因素。

With us today are Mr. Gustavo Pimenta, CEO; Mr. Marcelo Bacci, Executive Vice President of Finance and Investor Relations; Mr. Rogério Nogueira, Executive Vice President, Commercial and Development; Mr. Carlos Medeiros, Executive Vice President of Operations; and Shaun Usmar, CEO of Vale Base Metals.

今天與我們在一起的有：首席執行官 Gustavo Pimenta 先生；財務和投資者關係執行副總裁 Marcelo Bacci 先生；商業和開發執行副總裁 Rogério Nogueira 先生；營運執行副總裁 Carlos Medeiros 先生；以及淡水河谷基本金屬首席執行官 Shaun Usmar 先生。

Now I will turn the conference over to Mr. Gustavo Pimenta. Sir, you may now begin.

現在我將把會議交給古斯塔沃·皮門塔先生。先生，您可以開始了。

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Vale's third-quarter 2025 conference call. I would like to start by highlighting how excited I am about what we are building at Vale. Our vision to become a trusted partner with the most competitive and resilient portfolio in the industry remains solid, and we continue to make significant progress towards this future.

大家好，歡迎參加淡水河谷2025年第三季電話會議。首先，我想強調一下我對我們在淡水河谷正在打造的事業感到多麼興奮。我們致力於成為業內最具競爭力和韌性的產品組合的值得信賴的合作夥伴，這一願景依然堅定不移，我們正朝著這個目標不斷取得重大進展。

This quarter, we once again delivered solid operational and cost performance across the Board, and we are on track to deliver all of our guidance for the year. We continue to advance our safety agenda, most notably by removing the last dam from Emergency Level 3, a significant milestone in our derisking journey.

本季度，我們在營運和成本控制方面再次取得了穩健的全面業績，我們預計將實現全年所有業績目標。我們繼續推進安全議程，最值得一提的是，我們解除了 3 級緊急狀態的最後一道防線，這是我們降低風險進程中的一個重要里程碑。

Our key initiatives and growth projects are also moving forward as planned, reinforcing our long-term strategic focus and disciplined capital allocation approach. These results give me great confidence in Vale's future and in the value we are creating, not only for our shareholders, but also for society.

我們的關鍵措施和成長項目也正按計畫推進，這鞏固了我們的長期策略重點和嚴謹的資本配置方法。這些結果讓我對淡水河谷的未來以及我們正在創造的價值充滿信心，這不僅對我們的股東，而且對社會都是如此。

Now let's move on to the quarter performance on the next slide. First, I would like to highlight the solid operational results we delivered across all three commodities, positioning us to reach the upper limit of our annual production guidance. This achievement reflects the outstanding performance of our operational teams, and I want to congratulate them for their hard work and consistency throughout the year.

接下來，讓我們來看看下一張投影片上的季度業績。首先，我想重點強調我們在所有三種商品方面取得的穩健營運成果，這使我們能夠達到年度產量指引的上限。這項成就體現了我們營運團隊的出色表現，我要祝賀他們一年來辛勤工作、始終如一的努力。

This quarter, iron ore production reached 94 million tons, an increase of 4% year-on-year and our highest quarterly output since 2018. This growth was primarily driven by a record third quarter performance at S11D, along with the ramp-up of Brucutu, Capanema and Varg Grande projects, which added flexibility to our operations and product mix.

本季鐵礦石產量達9,400萬噸，年增4%，是自2018年以來最高的季度產量。這一成長主要得益於 S11D 第三季創紀錄的業績，以及 Brucutu、Capanema 和 Varg Grande 項目的投產，這為我們的營運和產品組合增加了靈活性。

Copper also delivered a strong performance, with production growing 6% compared to last year, supported by Salobo's solid performance. This was the best third quarter result for our copper business since 2019.

銅的表現也十分強勁，產量比去年增長了 6%，這主要得益於 Salobo 的穩健表現。這是我們銅業務自 2019 年以來最好的第三季業績。

Nickel production remained flat year-on-year, but with an increase in our own production, thanks to the ramp-up of the Voisey's Bay underground project. This allowed us to significantly reduce our unit cost year-on-year, as Marcelo will present later.

鎳產量與上年持平，但由於沃伊西灣地下計畫的增產，我們自身的產量有所增加。正如馬塞洛稍後將介紹的那樣，這使我們能夠逐年大幅降低單位成本。

Also in Nickel, we started operations at the second furnace of Onça Puma in September. The project was completed on schedule and 13% below the planned CapEx, reinforcing our commitment to efficiency. The second furnace adds 15,000 tons of production capacity per year, and it is expected to further reduce unit cost by approximately 10%, enhancing the competitiveness of our Nickel business.

此外，在鎳礦方面，我們在 9 月啟動了 Onça Puma 的第二座熔爐的運作。該項目按計劃完成，且資本支出比計劃低 13%，這反映了我們對效率的承諾。第二座熔爐每年可增加 15,000 噸產能，預計可進一步降低單位成本約 10%，進而提高我們鎳業務的競爭力。

We also reached other important milestones this quarter through our New Carajás program. which aims to accelerate the development of key projects in one of the world's most attractive mineral deposits. As many of you know, in June, we received the preliminary license for the Bacaba copper project and have since begun preparations for construction, which is set to start in the coming months following the issuance of the construction license.

本季度，我們還透過「新卡拉加斯計畫」實現了其他重要里程碑，該計畫旨在加速開發世界上最具吸引力的礦藏之一的關鍵項目。正如你們許多人所知，今年 6 月，我們獲得了巴卡巴銅礦專案的初步許可證，並已開始進行施工準備工作，施工將在獲得施工許可證後的幾個月內開始。

In iron ore, we received the operating license for the Serra Sul plus 20 million tons per annum expansion. The project has reached 80% physical progress and should start up by the end of 2026. Additionally, we secured approval to expand [Sehalestes] capacity from the current 6 million tons per year to 10 million tons per year, bringing extra volumes to the Northern system with a highly competitive capital intensity of just $20 per ton.

在鐵礦石方面，我們獲得了塞拉蘇爾礦場的營運許可證，並新增了每年2000萬噸的產能。該項目已完成 80% 的實體建設，預計將於 2026 年底啟動。此外，我們獲得了批准，將 [Sehalestes] 的產能從目前的每年 600 萬噸擴大到每年 1000 萬噸，為北方系統帶來額外的產量，而資本密集度僅為每噸 20 美元，極具競爭力。

Now looking at our portfolio. One of Vale's key competitive advantages is our ability to adapt to different market conditions, offering a product mix that meets the evolving needs of our customers. This is possible given the flexibility of our supply chain, supported by multiple blending, concentration and distribution facilities across the world.

現在來看看我們的投資組合。淡水河谷的關鍵競爭優勢之一是能夠適應不同的市場條件，提供滿足客戶不斷變化的需求的產品組合。由於我們供應鏈的靈活性，以及​​遍布全球的多個混合、濃縮和分銷設施的支持，這是有可能實現的。

Throughout 2025, we actively adjusted our iron ore product portfolio, concentrating our high silica products and launching a new medium-grade product from Carajás. This flexibility results in significant value creation. In Q3, our iron ore fines premium increased by nearly $2 per ton quarter-on-quarter. From an EBITDA perspective, those initiatives represent over $500 million improvement on an annualized basis.

2025 年全年，我們積極調整了鐵礦石產品組合，專注於發展高矽產品，並推出了來自卡拉加斯的新型中品位產品。這種靈活性能夠創造巨大的價值。第三季度，我們的鐵礦石粉溢價較上季增加近 2 美元/噸。從 EBITDA 的角度來看，這些措施每年可帶來超過 5 億美元的收益成長。

Safety is at the center of every decision we make at Vale, and I'm very proud of the significant progress we have achieved this quarter in dam safety and management. Back in 2020 we made a public commitment by 2025 vale would no longer have any dams classified at emergency Level 3, the highest risk category.

安全是我們淡水河谷所有決策的核心，我對本季我們在大壩安全和管理方面取得的重大進展感到非常自豪。早在 2020 年，我們就公開承諾，到 2025 年，淡水河谷將不再有任何被列為 3 級緊急狀態（最高風險等級）的水壩。

Last August, we fulfilled that commitment. The [Forquilhas-3] then, the last one at Level 3, had its emergency status officially lowered to Level 2 by Brazilian authorities. This is an important milestone in our commitment to society and neighboring communities and a key mark in our safety journey.

去年八月，我們履行了這項承諾。然後，最後一個處於 3 級狀態的 [Forquilhas-3] 被巴西當局正式降級為 2 級。這是我們履行對社會和周邊社區承諾的重要里程碑，也是我們安全發展歷程中的關鍵標誌。

Also in August, we announced that Vale successfully implemented the global industry standard on tailings management, the GISTM, meeting the requirements of this internationally recognized benchmark. Lastly, in September, we completed the decharacterization of the Grupo Dam in Minas Gerais, marking the 18 structure eliminated under our program.

同樣在 8 月，我們宣布淡水河谷成功實施了尾礦管理的全球產業標準 GISTM，滿足了這項國際公認的基準的要求。最後，在 9 月份，我們完成了米納斯吉拉斯州格魯波大壩的拆除工作，這標誌著在我們的計劃下拆除了 18 棟建築物。

Advancing the dam safety agenda is essential to ensuring no repetition and becoming a trusted partner to society. We remain committed to delivering results and being a reference for safety and operational excellence in our industry.

推動大壩安全議程對於確保不再發生類似事件以及成為社會值得信賴的合作夥伴至關重要。我們將繼續致力於取得成果，並成為業界安全和卓越營運的標竿。

Our efforts to transform Vale are beginning to be recognized by ESG rating agencies. We've demonstrated substantial improvements in governance, then safety and management, health and safety and climate change. These advancements have led to upgrades in our ratings, now surpassing levels seen prior to [Brucutu mine]. I would also like to highlight that over the last 1.5 years, a relevant number of ESG-focused investors have removed at Vale from their exclusion lists. We estimate roughly 1.5 trillion in AUM can now invest again in our shares and fixed income instruments.

我們為改造淡水河谷所做的努力正逐漸得到ESG評級機構的認可。我們在治理、安全管理、健康安全以及氣候變遷方面都取得了顯著進步。這些進步促使我們的評級得到提升，現在已超過以往的水平。[布魯庫圖礦]。我還想強調，在過去1.5年中，相當一部分注重ESG（環境、社會和治理）的投資者已經將淡水河谷從他們的排除名單中移除。我們估計，目前約有 1.5 兆美元的資產管理規模可以再次投資於我們的股票和固定收益產品。

We remain dedicated to transparently showcasing the progress we've made across the company, and we remain firmly committed to the principles of the UN Global Company, including respect for human rights, labor standards and environmental protection.

我們將繼續致力於以透明的方式展示公司的進展，並將繼續堅定地遵守聯合國全球公司的各項原則，包括尊重人權、勞動標準和環境保護。

I will now pass the floor to Marcelo Bacci to discuss our financial performance. I'll be back for closing remarks before the Q&A session. Marcelo, please go ahead.

現在我將把發言權交給馬塞洛·巴奇，讓他來談談我們的財務表現。在問答環節之前，我將回來作總結發言。馬塞洛，請繼續。

Thanks, Gustavo, and good morning, everyone. As Gustavo highlighted, we delivered another quarter of solid operational performance, which gives us even more confidence in the long-term value we are creating for our shareholders. This quarter, our pro forma EBITDA reached $4.4 billion, an increase of 17% compared to the same period last year and 28% higher than the last quarter.

謝謝你，古斯塔沃，大家早安。正如古斯塔沃所強調的，我們又一個季度實現了穩健的營運業績，這讓我們對為股東創造的長期價值更有信心。本季度，我們的備考 EBITDA 達到 44 億美元，比去年同期成長 17%，比上一季成長 28%。

As you can see on the slide, this consistent result was driven by robust sales, lower all-in costs across all three commodities and more favorable pricing conditions. In base metals, EBITDA grew by more than $400 million year-on-year, reaching almost $700 million, thanks to better results in both copper and nickel.

正如您在幻燈片中看到的，這一持續的業績得益於強勁的銷售、所有三種商品的綜合成本降低以及更有利的定價條件。基本金屬業務的 EBITDA 年成長超過 4 億美元，達到近 7 億美元，主要得益於銅和鎳的業績改善。

In iron ore, EBITDA was close to $4 billion, an increase of almost $250 million, supported by higher realized prices and quality premiums, reflecting the success of our portfolio strategy. This improvement was also supported by the higher sales of iron ore fines, as I'll detail on the next slide.

鐵礦石業務的 EBITDA 接近 40 億美元，成長了近 2.5 億美元，這得益於更高的實際價格和品質溢價，反映了我們投資組合策略的成功。這項改善也得益於鐵礦粉銷量的增加，我將在下一張投影片中詳細介紹。

Our iron ore sales increased by 5% year-on-year, reaching 86 million tons, the highest level for a third quarter since 2018. This growth was driven by stronger production performance and solid demand for iron ore fines, with benchmark prices staying above $100 per ton for most of the quarter.

我們的鐵礦石銷量年增 5%，達到 8,600 萬噸，是自 2018 年以來第三季的最高水準。這一增長得益於更強勁的生產表現和對鐵礦石粉的穩健需求，基準價格在本季度的大部分時間都保持在每噸 100 美元以上。

This quarter, we built up around 4 million tons of inventory. It's important to highlight that this was mainly due to volumes in transit to our 20 distribution and concentrating facilities in Asia and Europe, supporting our portfolio strategy. We expect these inventories to be converted into sales over the coming quarters, helping us maximize the value generated by the business.

本季度，我們累積了約400萬噸庫存。值得強調的是，這主要是由於貨物正在運往我們在亞洲和歐洲的 20 個分銷和濃縮設施，從而支持了我們的投資組合策略。我們預計這些庫存將在未來幾季轉化為銷售額，有助於我們最大限度地提高業務創造的價值。

Now looking more closely at our cost performance. I'm very pleased to see that we are on the right track to meet our 2025 iron ore cost guidance. Iron ore all-in costs declined 4% year-on-year, supported by our portfolio strategy, which led our average iron ore fines quality premiums to increase by almost $2 per ton quarter-on-quarter and $3 per ton year-on-year.

現在更仔細地審視一下我們的成本效益。我很高興地看到，我們正朝著實現2025年鐵礦石成本目標的方向穩步前進。在我們的投資組合策略的支持下，鐵礦石總成本同比下降了 4%，這使得我們的平均鐵礦石粉礦質量溢價環比增長近 2 美元/噸，同比增長 3 美元/噸。

Our long-term affreightment strategy is also delivering excellent results, reducing cost volatility and coming in $5 per ton below spot freight rates to China during the period. Our C1 costs, excluding third-party purchases remained flat year-on-year, reflecting a positive impact from inventory turnover compared to last year, which offset the effects from the exchange rate and higher maintenance and materials costs.

我們的長期貨運策略也取得了優異的成果，降低了成本波動，並且在此期間比中國現貨貨運價格低每噸 5 美元。不包括第三方採購，我們的 C1 成本與去年持平，反映出庫存週轉率較上年有所提高，抵消了匯率波動以及維護和材料成本上漲的影響。

These effects led to an increase in our production cost, which reached $20.3 per ton this quarter. The production cost from this quarter, along with the less favorable exchange rate compared to last year, are important factors to consider when estimating our C1 cost for Q4, which is expected to increase year-on-year.

這些影響導致我們的生產成本增加，本季達到每噸 20.3 美元。本季的生產成本，以及與去年相比不太有利的匯率，都是我們在估算第四季度 C1 成本時需要考慮的重要因素，預計第四季度 C1 成本將同比增長。

Despite this, we remain highly confident in achieving our full year guidance of $20.5 to $22 per ton. In Base Metals, our performance stood out once again, showing the great potential of this business as we continue to unlock value through ongoing initiatives. Copper all-in costs decreased by 65%, falling below $1,000 per ton. This was the fifth quarter in a row that we've seen cost reductions year-on-year.

儘管如此，我們仍然非常有信心實現全年每噸 20.5 至 22 美元的指導目標。在基本金屬領域，我們的業績再次脫穎而出，展現了該業務的巨大潛力，我們將繼續透過持續的舉措釋放價值。銅的總成本下降了 65%，跌破每噸 1000 美元。這已經是連續第五個季度實現成本年減了。

In nickel, all-in costs fell by 32% year-on-year to $12,300 per ton, reaching the lowest level since the second quarter of 2022, even after taking into account the impact of the PTVI deconsolidation. These improvements came from Vale Base Metal's consistent focus on efficiency initiatives, combined with higher byproduct revenues in our polymetallic sites, with gold being the main contributor.

鎳的綜合成本年減 32% 至每噸 12,300 美元，達到 2022 年第二季以來的最低水平，即使考慮到 PTVI 取消合併的影響。這些改進得益於淡水河谷基本金屬公司持續關注效率提升舉措，以及我們多金屬礦場副產品收入的提高，其中黃金是主要貢獻者。

Because of the lower-than-expected costs so far this year and the favorable outlook for byproduct revenues, we are once again lowering our 2025 cost guidance. We now expect nickel all-in costs to be between $13,000 and $14,000 per ton and copper all-in cost to be between $1,000 and $1,500 per ton. Discontinued cost improvement means an EBITDA increase of nearly $900 million compared to our expectations at the start of the year.

由於今年迄今的成本低於預期，且副產品收入前景良好，我們再次下調了 2025 年的成本預期。我們現在預計鎳的總成本將在每噸 13,000 美元至 14,000 美元之間，銅的總成本將在每噸 1,000 美元至 1,500 美元之間。成本改善措施的終止意味著 EBITDA 將比年初的預期增加近 9 億美元。

Now let's move on to cash generation. Recurring free cash flow reached $1.6 billion in Q3, an increase of $1 billion year-on-year. This improvement was primarily driven by our solid EBITDA in the quarter and a reduced impact from negative working capital.

現在我們來談談現金流生成。第三季經常性自由現金流達到 16 億美元，年增 10 億美元。這項改善主要得益於本季穩健的 EBITDA 以及負營運資本影響的減少。

Our total CapEx was $1.3 billion this quarter. We expect investment disbursements to increase in the fourth quarter, keeping us on track to meet our $5.4 billion to $5.7 billion full year guidance. On top of our recurring free cash flow generation, we also had a positive impact from the Aliança Energia transaction, which helped boost total free cash flow in the quarter to $2.6 billion.

本季我們的資本支出總額為13億美元。我們預計第四季度投資撥付將增加，這將使我們能夠實現全年 54 億至 57 億美元的目標。除了我們持續的自由現金流產生之外，Aliança Energia 的交易也對我們產生了積極影響，幫助本季自由現金流總額提升至 26 億美元。

This strong free cash flow generation and strong cash position were primarily used to return value to our shareholders, with the payment of $1.5 billion in interest on capital and a net borrowing of $600 million as part of liability management. Next slide, please.

該公司強勁的自由現金流和充裕的現金狀況主要用於回報股東，支付了 15 億美元的資本利息，並作為負債管理的一部分淨借款 6 億美元。請看下一張投影片。

As a result, our expanded net debt decreased by $800 million quarter-on-quarter, reaching $16.6 billion. With iron ore prices remaining above $100 per ton, we expect the free cash flow generation in the fourth quarter to bring us down at least to the midpoint of our target range of $10 billion to $20 billion. In this context, we see -- even in the context of the participating debenture standard offer.

因此，我們的擴大淨債務季減了 8 億美元，達到 166 億美元。由於鐵礦石價格仍高於每噸 100 美元，我們預計第四季度的自由現金流至少會降至我們 100 億美元至 200 億美元目標範圍的中點。在此背景下，我們看到——即使在參與債券標準要約的背景下也是如此。

Before handing over to Gustavo for his closing remarks, I want to emphasize the value we are consistently delivering to our shareholders. Through our growth strategy, cost efficiency and disciplined capital allocation, we are building a more resilient and high-performing company. These efforts strengthen our financial position and create conditions for sustainable and increasing returns to our shareholders over time. Gustavo, please?

在將發言權交給古斯塔沃做總結發言之前，我想先強調我們一直在為股東創造的價值。透過我們的成長策略、成本效益和嚴格的資本配置，我們正在打造一家更具韌性和更高績效的公司。這些舉措鞏固了我們的財務狀況，並為股東帶來可持續且不斷增長的回報創造了條件。古斯塔沃，可以嗎？

Thanks, Marcelo. Before opening up for the Q&A session, I would like to highlight the key takeaways from today's call.

謝謝你，馬塞洛。在正式進入問答環節之前，我想先強調一下今天電話會議的主要內容。

Safety remains our core value. And this third quarter performance only reinforces that. As we continue to advance on building an accident-free work environment and on delivering on our upstream dam decharacterization program. We once again delivered a solid operating performance with cost reductions across all businesses, reflecting our focus on operational excellence.

安全始終是我們的核心價值。第三季的表現也印證了這一點。我們將繼續努力，建造一個無事故的工作環境，並推進上游大壩去特徵化計畫。我們再次實現了穩健的營運業績，並在所有業務領域降低了成本，這反映了我們對卓越營運的重視。

Our flexible product portfolio allows us to maximize free cash flow and long-term value creation and the different market conditions, and we are seeing those benefits in our financial performance. We are making solid progress on strategic projects in the Carajás region, leveraging one of the richest and lowest cost mining endowments globally.

我們靈活的產品組合使我們能夠最大限度地利用自由現金流和長期價值創造，並適應不同的市場條件，而這些優勢也反映在我們的財務表現中。我們在卡拉加斯地區的戰略項目上取得了堅實進展，充分利用了該地區全球最豐富、成本最低的礦產資源之一。

And finally, our disciplined capital allocation approach ensures we seize the best opportunities to generate long-term value for all of our stakeholders.

最後，我們嚴謹的資本配置方法確保我們抓住最佳機會，為所有利害關係人創造長期價值。

Now let's move on to the Q&A session. Thank you.

現在我們進入問答環節。謝謝。

Rodolfo Angele, JPMorgan.

Rodolfo Angele，摩根大通。

Okay. My two questions are the following one. So first one, I would like to ask Rogério a question about the portfolio strategy. That was a thing that we discussed a lot in the recent investor tour. And it's amazing to see it already showing a large impact already in the third quarter.

好的。我的兩個問題如下。首先，我想問羅熱裡奧一個關於投資組合策略的問題。這是我們最近在投資人巡迴考察中多次討論過的問題。令人驚訝的是，它在第​​三季就已經產生了巨大的影響。

So I wanted to ask you to give us a little bit more color on how this should progress. What is the potential? Just an overview on what should we expect about portfolio strategy, which seems to be yielding pretty interesting results.

所以我想請您再詳細介紹一下這件事該如何進展。潛力有多大？簡單概述一下我們應該對投資組合策略抱持什麼樣的預期，目前看來，該策略似乎正在產生相當有趣的結果。

And my second question, I think, is for Bacci or the staff for Bacci. I think what we hear from investors is companies is showing a very strong performance. The operations seem to be much more -- it seems like you have your hands on the wheel and things are really improving and we're seeing limited surprises, which is always very good.

我的第二個問題，我想，是問 Bacci 或 Bacci 的員工的。我認為我們從投資者那裡了解到，各公司都表現出了非常強勁的業績。營運情況似乎好多了——感覺你們已經掌控了局面，情況確實在好轉，而且我們看到的意外情況也很少，這總是非常好的。

And when we see a quarter like this where the company generated over $2.6 billion in free cash flow, the question that I'm getting a lot from investors is how should we think about dividends as one part of the capital accretion strategy going forward. So those are my two questions.

當我們看到像本季這樣公司產生超過 26 億美元自由現金流的季度時，我從投資者那裡經常聽到的問題是，我們應該如何看待股息作為未來資本累積策略的一部分。這就是我的兩個問題。

Thank you, Rodolfo, for the question. On the portfolio. So I think up to now, our joint actions, and I mean joint because those are actions from the commercial operations and technical areas in optimizing our product portfolio, they have yielded very positive results. Just a few examples. For BRBF, in [SSAJ]. [SSAJ] is our mid-grade product from the northern part, which are both low alumina mid-grade ores, they have commanded very high premiums versus the index 62.

謝謝羅多爾夫的提問。關於投資組合。所以我認為到目前為止，我們的聯合行動（我指的是聯合行動，因為這些行動來自商業營運和技術領域，旨在優化我們的產品組合）已經取得了非常積極的成果。舉幾個例子。對於 BRBF，在 [SSAJ] 中。 [SSAJ] 是我們來自北部的中品位產品，兩者都是低氧化鋁中品​​位礦石，相對於指數 62，它們獲得了非常高的溢價。

As Gustavo mentioned, it was close to $3 per ton normalized to a 62% FE content iron ore, which was a way higher than a year ago. If you look into the third quarter of 2015, fine premiums reached $0.7 per ton, which is actually $2.6 per ton higher than the third quarter of 2024 and $1.8 per ton higher than the 2Q 2025. And this is -- and I would like to say that this is actually despite a relatively lower-quality product mix. So I mean, very positive results so far.

正如 Gustavo 所提到的，按鐵含量為 62% 的鐵礦石​​標準化後，價格接近每噸 3 美元，比一年前高得多。如果查看 2015 年第三季度，優質溢價達到每噸 0.7 美元，實際上比 2024 年第三季度高出每噸 2.6 美元，比 2025 年第二季度高出每噸 1.8 美元。而且——我想說的是，這實際上是在產品組合品質相對較低的情況下實現的。所以我的意思是，到目前為止，結果非常積極。

Last but not least, IOCJ premiums also kept a very healthy level at about $15 per ton, obviously, driven by some good -- margins, but also by a wider product allocation, and we can talk more about it.

最後但同樣重要的是，IOCJ 溢價也保持在每噸約 15 美元的健康水平，這顯然是由一些良好的利潤率以及更廣泛的產品分配所推動的，我們可以對此進行更多討論。

But I think what I would like to reinforce is that we're very confident in our product portfolio. I think we see that IOCJ and BRBF will remain our core products, with a strategic allocation to regions and clients who really require their unique properties. That means that we will sell it, but we're well-located to clients and regions that actually value -- or have a higher VIU -- or pay a higher VIU for these products.

但我想要強調的是，我們對我們的產品組合非常有信心。我認為我們可以看到 IOCJ 和 BRBF 仍將是我們的核心產品，我們將策略性地將其分配給真正需要其獨特特性的地區和客戶。這意味著我們會銷售這些產品，但我們的地理位置優越，客戶和地區真正重視這些產品，或對這些產品有更高的價值，或願意為這些產品支付更高的價值。

[SSAJ], as I said, which is the mid-grade product from Carajás that we just introduced, has already achieved sales of about 30 million per ton -- 30 million tons, and is becoming a global product with potential to further increase its sales in 2026. So as we look into 2026, we believe that our volumes of [SSAJ] will increase gradually.

正如我剛才所說，我們剛剛介紹的卡拉加斯中檔產品[SSAJ]，銷量已達到每噸約3000萬英鎊——3000萬噸，並且正在成為一種全球性產品，有潛力在2026年進一步提高銷量。展望 2026 年，我們相信我們的 [SSAJ] 銷量將逐步成長。

Last but not least, our Chinese concentrate, which started as not such a standard product, is becoming a highly valued product in the Chinese market. So this is very good news. This product is also commanding very good premiums in the Chinese market.

最後但同樣重要的是，我們最初並不算是標準產品的中國濃縮液，正在成為中國市場上備受重視的產品。這是個非常好的消息。該產品在中國市場也獲得了非常高的溢價。

I think the only other one is the pellets market that we have been talking about. 2025 has been a challenging year for pellets. We see 2026, 2027 as years that will gradually recover our pellet premiums, especially with the startup of new projects that will demand pellets. Mostly projects there are going to look into direct reduction, looking for decarbonization, and also with the Chinese exports cooling down a little bit, which will add more demand for regions that need pellets.

我認為唯一另一個值得關注的市場就是我們一直在討論的顆粒燃料市場。 2025年對顆粒燃料市場來說是充滿挑戰的一年。我們認為 2026 年、2027 年將是顆粒燃料溢價逐步恢復的年份，特別是隨著需要顆粒燃料的新計畫的啟動。那裡的大部分項目都將著眼於直接減排、尋求脫碳，而且隨著中國出口略有降溫，這將增加對需要顆粒燃料的地區的需求。

Look, I think we will keep proactively optimizing our portfolio solutions, not only based on market demand, but also on our mine plan possibilities, as we have been doing with the operations team. And we'll keep observing the market, observing the market needs and our competitors' positioning so that we can define our best allocation, our best portfolio.

我認為，我們將繼續積極優化我們的投資組合解決方案，不僅要考慮市場需求，還要考慮我們的礦山計劃的可能性，就像我們一直與營運團隊一起做的那樣。我們將繼續觀察市場，觀察市場需求和競爭對手的定位，以便確定我們最佳的資產配置，我們最佳的投資組合。

Rodolfo, Gustavo here. Let me just add one thought here and then I'll pass to Bacci to cover the capital allocation. But I think what you are seeing in the market, it seems that -- one thing we've been sharing with investors is the enormous flexibility that Vale has in its portfolio. I think nobody in the industry has that flexibility. We've talked about 20 blending facilities across the globe, several concentration facilities.

我是魯道夫·古斯塔沃。我在這裡補充一點想法，然後就交給巴奇來介紹資金分配狀況。但我認為你在市場上看到的，似乎——我們一直在與投資者分享的一點是，淡水河谷的投資組合具有巨大的靈活性。我認為業內沒有人具備這種彈性。我們已經討論了全球 20 個混合設施和幾個濃縮設施。

So that allows us to put into the market what our client needs at the right time. And I think this more dynamic product allocation and development that we've been able to show just reinforces the enormous competitive advantage that we have to play along the cycle. So I'm very happy with the outcome. And I think we'll be able to capture even greater value as we move forward.

這樣一來，我們就能在適當的時間將客戶所需的產品或服務推向市場。我認為，我們所展現的這種更具活力的產品分配和開發模式，正好鞏固了我們在整個週期中擁有的巨大競爭優勢。所以我對結果非常滿意。我認為隨著我們不斷前進，我們將能夠創造更大的價值。

So to your second question, I will ask Bacci to cover.

至於你的第二個問題，我會請巴奇來解答。

Thank you, Gustavo, and thank you, Rodolfo, for the question. As you mentioned, Rodolfo, the stability of the company and the stability of the market are creating better conditions for us to think about the extraordinary dividends for the coming months.

謝謝古斯塔沃，也謝謝魯道夫的提問。正如您所提到的，羅多爾夫，公司的穩定性和市場的穩定性為我們考慮未來幾個月的特別股息創造了更好的條件。

As I said during the presentation, the price is above $100 on a consistent way plus the operational performance are creating a very nice cash flow position for us, which is better than we expected at the beginning of the year, plus the positive performance coming from the Base Metals business. So we cannot anticipate the decision right now because there's still a few things to happen, but it is likely that we have extraordinary dividends announced in the coming months.

正如我在演講中所說，價格持續高於 100 美元，加上營運績效為我們創造了非常不錯的現金流狀況，這比我們年初的預期要好，再加上基本金屬業務的積極表現。因此，我們現在還無法預測最終決定，因為還有一些事情需要處理，但未來幾個月我們可能會宣布發放特別股利。

Rafael Barcellos, Bradesco BBI.

拉斐爾·巴塞洛斯，布拉德斯科 BBI。

So as a first question, are there any plans to revise the offering structure of the participating debentures announced in early October? I mean any updates you could share on that front? And that said, maybe connecting with this Bacci speech on the dividends, I mean, what would be the implication or the implications for Vale's dividend payouts, particularly, of course, for extraordinary dividends?

首先，請問是否有計劃修改 10 月初宣布的參與債券的發行結構？我的意思是，您能否分享一下這方面的最新進展？也就是說，或許可以結合巴奇關於股息的演講來探討一下，這對淡水河谷的股息支付，特別是特別股息，會有什麼影響？

And as a second question, first, Gustavo, congratulations for the results that you have been delivering on the copper side. And that said, are there any plans or ways that you could -- that you believe that Vale could accelerate or speed up the growth initiatives in the corporate business?

第二個問題，首先，Gustavo，恭喜你在銅礦方面的成果。也就是說，您認為淡水河谷是否有任何計劃或方法可以加速或加快企業業務的成長計劃？

Thank you, Rafael. This is Marcelo speaking. On the participative debentures, I guess, we have to -- first, the offer is to be concluded today. And this offer has been unique. It's the only one that we have ever done since the issuance of those debentures 28 years ago.

謝謝你，拉斐爾。我是馬塞洛。關於參與性債券，我想，我們必須－首先，要約必須在今天完成。而且這項優惠是獨一無二的。自 28 年前發行這些債券以來，這是我們唯一一次這樣做。

And I would like to stress out that the executive committee does not expect to make another movement like this in the foreseeable future. We also believe that the price that we're offering is quite reasonable and above the fair value that we believe we have with a 15% premium compared to the price before announcement.

我想強調的是，執行委員會預計在可預見的未來不會再採取類似的行動。我們也認為，我們提供的價格相當合理，高於我們認為的公允價值，比公告前的價格溢價 15%。

So if we consider our production volume guidance, is the offer price of BRL42 implies an iron ore price of $100 per ton -- around $100 per ton in the long term. So we think it's a very interesting offer to the holders. And of course, if you believe prices are to be above $100 per ton, probably positioning in the shares is a better deal. So I think we are not considering any change to the offer, especially because, at this point, it is about to be closed today.

因此，如果我們考慮我們的產量指導，BRL42 的報價是否意味著鐵礦石價格為每噸 100 美元——長期來看約為每噸 100 美元。所以我們認為這對持有者來說是一個非常有吸引力的提議。當然，如果您認為價格將超過每噸 100 美元，那麼投資股票可能會更划算。所以我認為我們不考慮對報價做任何更改，尤其是因為今天就要截止了。

I will pass to Shaun, I think he's -- he'll be able to provide more color. What I can say is based on everything I've been hearing from the team, from Shaun and the ExCo of VBM is that the more we look into the growth opportunities in Carajás, the more excited we are. So this is something, hopefully, at Vale Day, we'll be able to talk more about it, give you concrete examples. But let me bring Shaun to the debate here. I think he'll be able to share more details with you.

我會把麥克風交給肖恩，我覺得他──他能提供更多細節。根據我從團隊、Shaun 和 VBM 執行委員會聽到的一切，我可以說的是，我們越深入了解卡拉加斯的成長機會，就越感到興奮。所以，希望在Vale Day上，我們能夠就此進行更多討論，並給出具體的例子。但我想把肖恩也拉進這場討論。我想他應該可以跟你分享更多細節。

Thanks, Gustavo, and thanks for the question, Rafael. I think the short answer is we will cover more of this, as Gustavo say, in Vale Day. But really, we've fundamentally focused on two things right now to do exactly what you're saying. The first one is you've seen the industry, I think, on track this year to under-deliver against the original expectations with a series of issues by about 6%.

謝謝古斯塔沃，也謝謝你的提問，拉斐爾。簡而言之，正如 Gustavo 所說，我們將在 Vale Day 上對此進行更多探討。但實際上，為了實現你所說的目標，我們目前主要專注於兩件事。首先，我認為，由於一系列問題，今年整個產業的發展趨勢是低於最初的預期約 6%。

An issue for us, just get the basics right in our existing operations. So you've seen our quarter, I did guide in Q2 that this was expected in both our segments to actually be our weakest quarter with planned maintenance, like at Sossego.

對我們來說，關鍵在於確保現有營運的基本環節沒問題。所以你們已經看到了我們本季的業績，我在第二季確實預測，由於計劃內的維護，例如在 Sossego 的維護，預計我們兩個部門的本季度實際上都會是業績最差的季度。

And despite that, we've seen our operators do incredible work and we're on track, particularly at Salobo for record performance. And I think we're looking at Sossego a mature asset for the best operating performance, which is tough for an older asset, in certainly five years, which is exactly what we need as a baseline.

儘管如此，我們看到我們的操作員們表現出色，我們正朝著目標前進，尤其是在 Salobo，有望創下業績新高。我認為，索塞戈油田作為一項成熟的資產，在五年內能夠達到最佳營運績效，這對一項老舊資產來說非常困難，而五年正是我們需要的基準。

The other thing then goes down to capital allocation and the project growth pipeline, specifically on Para. And here, we're not waiting for an annual time frame. We've taken -- we discussed this a bit during LME Week. Historically, 2024, for example, we do about 20,000 meters of drilling in the district. And this year alone, we've dynamically reallocated R&D spend, we've tripled our drilling this year. And we will share more on what we're finding, but it's incredibly exciting.

另一方面，這涉及資本配置和專案成長計劃，特別是 Para 專案。而且在這裡，我們並不等待一年的時間框架。我們已經採取了——我們在倫敦金屬交易所週期間也討論過這個問題。例如，從歷史資料來看，2024 年，我們在該地區進行了大約 20,000 公尺的鑽探。光是今年，我們就動態地重新分配了研發支出，今年的鑽探活動增加了兩倍。我們會分享更多我們的發現，但目前為止，這令人無比興奮。

So it creates this very dynamic question about drilling, drill results, the endowments and how do we actually optimize, not only to accelerate, but to see what we can do to increase volumes over and above what we thought was conceivable.

因此，這就產生了一個非常動態的問題，即鑽井、鑽井結果、資源禀賦以及我們如何才能真正優化，不僅是為了加速鑽井，也是為了看看我們能做些什麼來增加產量，使其超過我們認為可以想像的水平。

We're very careful to make sure that we don't make the mistakes, I think you see in the sector more broadly, which is get over-enthusiastic. We have to ground this in delivery. But I think as Gustavo said in his opening remarks, first (technical difficulty) -- the rank is Bacaba. We've worked with the government to be able to accelerate ahead of getting our work, so we hit the weather window here on early works on the bridge, which is critical path. They're about [14%] ahead of plan currently. We hope to get that soon and we'll obviously communicate with the market soon. But we are set up there for lower capital intensity and to do that faster.

我們非常謹慎，確保不會犯下整個行業普遍存在的錯誤，那就是過於熱情。我們必須把這一點落實到實際執行層面。但我認為正如古斯塔沃在開場白中所說，首先（技術困難）——排名是巴卡巴。我們與政府合作，加快了工程進度，趕上了橋樑早期工程的關鍵時期，抓住了最佳的施工時機。目前他們的進度比計劃提前了約 14%。我們希望盡快實現這一目標，並且顯然會盡快與市場進行溝通。但我們在那裡已經做好了資本密集度較低、速度更快的準備。

And I won't spill the lead on some of what we're seeing with the life of business planning our projects, but all of that is around reducing capital intensity, execution risk and working more closely with governments on reducing permitting time frames. And I think we've got some really good news that we're working on in that area.

我不會透露我們在專案生命週期規劃方面看到的一些關鍵信息，但所有這些都與降低資本密集度、執行風險以及與政府更緊密地合作以縮短審批時間有關。我認為我們在這個領域有一些非常好的消息正在努力實現。

The other thing is we're seeing with the ramp-up also on our polymetallics, we're ahead on both the Voisey's Bay, and we've seen our highest output in [Sabri] in five or six years, we'll put over 5 million tons for [Claribel] this year. We are seeing a significant copper byproduct that is material, it's over 20% of our total copper contribution. So that is a significant contribution to that business segment's all-in cost improvements as well.

另外，我們看到多金屬礦的產量也在增加，我們在沃伊西灣礦區領先，薩布里礦區的產量也達到了五六年來的最高水平，今年我們將向克拉里貝爾礦區輸送超過 500 萬噸礦石。我們發現銅副產品含量很高，占我們銅總產量的 20% 以上。因此，這也對該業務部門的綜合成本改善做出了重大貢獻。

Rafael, this is Marcelo again. I forgot to mention about the question on the effect of the buyback of the debentures on a potential dividend payment. I would say that at this point, there is no effect or a minor effect. So this would not change our strategy in relation to dividends.

拉斐爾，我是馬塞洛。我忘了提及債券回購對潛在股利支付的影響這個問題。我認為目前來看，沒有影響或影響很小。因此，這不會改變我們有關股利的策略。

Leonardo Correa, BTG.

Leonardo Correa，BTG。

So a couple of things on my side. And sorry, it's going to be a bit similar to Rodolfo, so sorry, Rodolfo, for that and Vale management. But moving back to these 2 points, which I think are at this point critical, right, for the investment case. Rogério, starting with the commercial strategy, right? I mean, great results so far I think you gave a very good qualitative assessment of everything that's happening.

我這邊有兩件事。抱歉，這有點像羅多爾福的情況，所以對不起羅多爾福，也對不起淡水河谷的管理階層。但回到這兩點，我認為這兩點對於目前的投資案例至關重要，對吧。羅熱裡奧，先從商業策略入手，對吧？我的意思是，目前為止結果很棒，我認為你對所有正在發生的事情都做出了非常好的定性評估。

Things have been delivered very fast, right? So there's been a, let's say, a turn in the direction of things and you can already see an improvement in price realizations of -- depending on how you look at it, right, $1.8 to $2.5 per ton in better realized prices, right? It's natural, I think, for everyone to question, given the fast speed and improvement, where do you think we are in this, let's say, in this S-curve, right, of this entire journey on the commercial strategy?

東西送達速度很快，對吧？所以，可以說，事情已經朝著好的方向發展了，而且你已經可以看到價格實現有所改善——這取決於你怎麼看，每噸實際價格提高了 1.8 到 2.5 美元，對吧？我認為，鑑於發展速度和進步如此之快，每個人都自然會質疑，我們在這個商業策略的整個歷程中，比如說，在這個 S 形曲線中，處於什麼位置？

I know there's no guidance, and I know there's -- it's very difficult to quantify, but would you say we're at the early stages of this optimization and that these results, they could continue improving, maybe doubling from where we are? So anything quantitatively, I think would be very helpful, at least to me, so we can understand the, let's say, the economic impacts of what you're doing.

我知道目前還沒有具體的指導方針，也知道——這很難量化，但您認為我們正處於優化的早期階段嗎？這些結果可能會繼續改進，甚至比我們目前的水準翻倍？所以，任何量化數據，我認為都會非常有幫助，至少對我來說是這樣，這樣我們就可以了解，比如說，你所做的事情的經濟影響。

The second point, to Marcelo. Marcelo, we spoke a lot about the potential extraordinary dividends. You talked about the (technical difficulty) -- and how they impact that decision, which is close to zero or very little. You're talking about iron ore prices have been ahead of expectations and how that helps and the cash flow projections going forward, I can imagine, have improved. What we haven't debated yet is the potential changes in regulation in the country, right?

第二點，給馬塞洛。馬塞洛，我們談了很多關於潛在的巨額股息的問題。你談到了（技術難度）——以及它們如何影響該決定，而這種影響接近零或非常小。您提到鐵礦石價格超出預期，以及這如何幫助公司，並展望未來的現金流預測，我想應該會有所改善。我們還沒有討論的是該國監管方面可能發生的變化，對吧？

I mean, Brazil is on the verge of increasing taxation on dividends to 10%. And every single company, every single management team and every single tax department is obviously running the numbers and trying to assess implications and what the next steps are, right?

我的意思是，巴西即將把股利稅提高到 10%。顯然，每一家公司、每一個管理團隊和每一個稅務部門都在進行數據分析，試圖評估其影響以及下一步措施，對吧？

I mean, looking into the numbers for Vale specifically, right, I mean, one can simply conclude that there's about 30% of the market cap in retained earnings, right, which is a relevant number. I know leverage is not high but maybe a bit higher than what -- the mid-range of your guidance, but still manageable. I want to see from you if that changes the calculus, right? This potential regime change in Brazil on taxation of dividends, does that change in the short term your calculus on the extraordinary dividend that you're about to announce?

我的意思是，具體來看淡水河谷的數據，對吧，我的意思是，我們可以簡單地得出結論，留存收益約佔市值的 30%，對吧，這是一個相關的數字。我知道槓桿率不算高，但可能比您指導的中位數略高一些，不過仍在可控範圍內。我想看看這是否會改變計算結果，對吧？巴西股息稅收制度的潛在變化，是否會在短期內改變您即將宣布的特別股息的計算？

Okay. Well, no, thank you very much. This is a very fair question. Let me break it down in two steps. First, let me give you a view of what we're doing and then I'll give you an idea of the potential impact, okay?

好的。不，非常感謝。這是一個非常合理的問題。讓我分兩步解釋一下。首先，讓我向你介紹我們正在做的事情，然後再向你說明可能產生的影響，好嗎？

So what we have been doing is that we keep proactively optimizing our portfolio solutions. So always looking to the market demand, as I said, and looking at our mine plan possibilities. Just to give you a few examples of things we're doing. We're developing additional, more competitive concentration capacity on a global basis so that we have less costly, better logistics for the concentrate production that we produce. And those concentrate production -- or this concentrate production allows us to think about different optionals in terms of blending.

因此，我們一直在做的就是不斷積極地優化我們的投資組合解決方案。所以，正如我所說，我們始終關注市場需求，並審視我們的礦山計劃的可能性。舉幾個我們正在做的事情的例子。我們正在全球開發更多、更具競爭力的濃縮能力，以便為我們生產的濃縮物提供成本更低、更好的物流。而這些濃縮液的生產——或者說這種濃縮液的生產，使我們能夠考慮混合方面的不同選擇。

We are establishing alternative blending facilities outside China on a global basis wherever possible. For example, we're putting blending facilities in [Soha], we're putting blending facilities in Europe, we're looking at some other options in Malaysia. So we want to increase our flexibility to distribute on a worldwide basis, and that actually helps us to better allocate the products and optimize not only the service to clients, but also our price realization.

我們將盡可能在全球範圍內，在中國以外建立替代混合設施。例如，我們正在[Soha]建造混合設施，我們正在歐洲建造混合設施，我們正在考慮在馬來西亞的其他一些選擇。因此，我們希望提高在全球範圍內分銷的靈活性，這實際上有助於我們更好地分配產品，並優化對客戶的服務以及價格實現。

Where -- there's a third element, that we're also improving process flow sheets, so to increase metallic recovery in the concentration facilities. We created a small technical group to develop and deploy best practices. This is extremely important because the metallic recovery on those concentration plants do have an enormous value.

此外，還有第三個要素，就是我們也在改進製程流程圖，以提高選礦廠的金屬回收率。我們組建了一個小型技術團隊，負責開發和推廣最佳實務。這一點極為重要，因為這些選礦廠的金屬回收具有巨大的價值。

And last but not least, we're improving logistics. So trying to figure out the places where we should be positioning blending facilities, concentration, so that we can optimize logistics costs. So those are the things that we are doing.

最後，我們正在改進物流。因此，我們正在努力確定應該在哪裡設置混合設施和集中生產設施，以便優化物流成本。所以，這些就是我們正在做的事情。

But ultimately, to your question, so the potential impact depends a little bit on a few factors. First is the competitors' reaction and how they are developing their own portfolio and how we would fit, complement their own portfolio.

但歸根結底，回到你的問題，潛在影響在某種程度上取決於幾個因素。首先是競爭對手的反應，以及他們如何建立自己的產品組合，還有我們如何融入、補充他們的產品組合。

Just to give an example, you might see some of our clients their view on product portfolio is decreasing quality to optimize resources and reduce C1 costs. This is where they're going. I mean, it's very accretive for them. But as long as they're going this direction, that actually offers us a possibility to put more complementary material into the market.

舉個例子來說，您可能會看到我們的一些客戶認為，他們對產品組合的看法是降低品質以優化資源並降低 C1 成本。這就是他們要去的地方。我的意思是，這對他們來說是非常有利的。但只要他們朝著這個方向發展，實際上就為我們提供了一個機會，可以將更多互補材料推向市場。

And our view is that this will increase the value and use of our products. So the second one just to think about is how the market will react in terms of this anti-evolution capacity closures. The less capacity you have available to produce the same amount of steel or the same amount of pig iron, the higher the premiums one would expect because the higher quality of iron ore would be demanded to maintain productivity of the remaining blast furnaces.

我們認為這將提高我們產品的價值和用途。因此，第二個需要考慮的問題是，市場將如何應對這種阻礙發展的產能關閉。生產相同數量的鋼材或生鐵的產能越少，溢價就越高，因為需要更高品質的鐵礦石來維持剩餘高爐的生產力。

So I'm just giving you a few examples that this game will need to play -- would need to be played as we go, but that we have developed an enormous flexibility and we're monitoring the market very closely so that we can maintain the current premiums and try to optimize it even further.

所以我只是舉幾個例子來說明這款遊戲需要如何運作——需要邊玩邊調整，但我們已經培養了極大的靈活性，並且正在密切關注市場，以便我們能夠維持當前的保費，並嘗試進一步優化它。

Well, thank you for your question. Of course, we are monitoring very closely the potential and the changes that have happened and the potential additional changes in regulations, especially related to tax -- income tax on dividends and interest on capital. The situation we have at Vale is that we can pay -- if you look at the minimum dividend policy that we have, most of it, if not the totality of it, can be paid using interest on capital.

謝謝你的提問。當然，我們正在密切關注法規的潛在變化、已經發生的變化以及可能出現的其他變化，特別是與稅收相關的變化——股息所得稅和資本利息稅。淡水河谷的情況是，我們可以支付——如果你看一下我們的最低股息政策，你會發現大部分股息（如果不是全部的話）都可以用資本利息來支付。

So the immediate impact on the regulation -- of the regulation on dividends for us is limited. But we are monitoring -- still, there is some confusion in the market about the potential conflict between the corporate law and the new regulation that was created by -- for dividend payments related to profits that already have been recorded, in terms of the -- when those dividends can be paid after declared.

因此，對我們而言，股利監管的直接影響是有限的。但我們正在密切關注——目前市場上仍然存在一些關於公司法與新規之間潛在衝突的困惑——關於已記錄利潤的股息支付，以及——在宣布股息後何時可以支付這些股息。

So we are still working on that. But we are monitoring that very closely, as I said. And if there is any opportunity to optimize the situation of the company and our shareholders in relation to tax, we're going to look very closely into that.

所以我們仍在努力解決這個問題。但正如我所說，我們正在密切關注此事。如果有機會可以優化公司和股東在稅務方面的狀況，我們一定會非常仔細地研究。

Carlos De Alba, Morgan Stanley.

卡洛斯·德阿爾巴，摩根士丹利。

Congrats on the solid results. I wanted to focus a little bit on base metals. And maybe, Shaun, can you elaborate a little bit more on how do you see the timing of Vale pursuing more aggressively the copper growth opportunity that it has? Obviously, several projects in the portfolio. How do you see the sequence of those? When can we start to see the Board, maybe management presenting the projects for Board approval, and then hopefully start on the path of expanding that copper output?

恭喜取得如此優異的成績。我想稍微重點談談賤金屬。肖恩，或許你可以再詳細談談你如何看待淡水河谷公司現在更積極地尋求銅礦成長機會的時機？顯然，我的作品集中包含多個項目。你如何看待這些事件的順序？我們什麼時候才能看到董事會或管理層向董事會提交專案申請批准，然後預計開始擴大銅產量？

And then my second question, also on Base Metals, will be if you can share maybe some color as to how the cash cost without byproducts or before byproducts in Base Metals has performed. Obviously, kudos to the company and to you on the lower all-in cost guidance.

我的第二個問題也是關於基本金屬的，您能否分享一下基本金屬在不計入副產品或未計入副產品時的現金成本表現如何？顯然，公司和您都做得很好，給出了更低的整體成本預期。

But that definitely were influenced by strong byproducts, which they count, we'll take them. But just if you can shed some light on how the cost performance has been before byproduct benefits.

但這肯定受到了強烈的副產品的影響，它們很重要，我們會接受它們。但如果您能簡要介紹一下在產生副產品收益之前，成本效益如何就更好了。

Thanks for that. So the copper growth, I'm going to punch, I think that mostly to give you the detail on Vale Day, as much as I'm jumping it a bit to share with you now. I can just say we've fundamentally redesigned our life of business planning this year and very much with an eye to exactly the dynamics you've mentioned. So we are prioritizing, as I said earlier, dynamically capital to copper in Para, specifically on R&D spend. And the constraint that we have on copper growth is not throwing more money at that.

謝謝。所以，關於銅礦的生長，我要重點說說，我想主要是為了向你們詳細介紹Vale Day，雖然我現在有點跳過一些內容來和你們分享。我只能說，今年我們從根本上重新設計了我們的業務規劃流程，並且非常注重您提到的這些動態。正如我之前所說，我們正在優先考慮動態地將資金投入 Para 的銅礦，特別是研發支出。而我們目前對銅礦成長的限制因素並非是投入更多資金。

I just want to be clear. Like our plans currently, we are fully self-funded through our planning horizon, mostly through, not just, as you said, byproduct credits, but really fundamentally through our entire business restructuring, our capital intensity, reducing our working capital and fundamentally reducing our overhead and our cost in this business, so things that we control.

我只是想把話說清楚。就像我們目前的計劃一樣，我們在整個規劃期內完全依靠自有資金，主要資金來源不僅是你所說的副產品抵免，而且從根本上來說，是透過我們整個業務的重組、資本密集度的降低、營運資本的減少以及從根本上降低我們這項業務的管理費用和成本，也就是我們能夠控制的事情。

So we are seeing opportunity. I will disclose more within weeks of how we're seeing that opportunity to look at sequencing and growth opportunities. And I'd sort of direct you to say, as far as I can see from the market analysis that we see with analysts and others, we're not even getting credit for what we've guided to yet. So I recognize that the market is sort of waiting to see what we're capable of delivering. I hope that we -- I hope that it's evident, particularly against the backdrop of the copper sector that's struggling to deliver.

所以我們看到了機會。幾週後，我將揭露更多關於我們如何看待這項機遇，以及我們如何看待定序和成長機會的資訊。而且，我想引導你指出，就我從分析師和其他人那裡看到的市場分析來看，我們甚至還沒有得到我們所預期的業績的認可。所以我認為市場正在觀望我們能提供什麼。我希望——我希望這一點顯而易見，尤其是在銅業舉步維艱的背景下。

Our assets are hitting records. We have to get that done fundamentally to earn, frankly, the right from Vale and Menara for further capital, and we're delivering that. And then in addition, I think we're finding significant opportunities on how we approach projects and work with our partners and our stakeholders to unlock their copper growth.

我們的資產正在創下紀錄。坦白說，我們必須從根本解決這個問題，才能贏得淡水河谷和梅納拉進一步注資的權利，而我們正在實現這一點。此外，我認為我們在專案開展方式以及與合作夥伴和利害關係人合作方面，發現了重要的機遇，可以釋放他們的銅礦成長潛力。

So I know it's not the -- this is a little of the detail you're looking at, but we will provide that within a matter of weeks. And I am, I think, to just coin what -- and echo what Gustavo said, the more work we do, the more excited we get. And I expect that as we get more drill results, and we will continue to increase our drilling. The constraint is just getting enough drills, frankly, for us to continue to do more. What we will find is, I think each year, for the foreseeable future, we'll be able to continually dynamically improve.

我知道這不是——這只是您所關注的細節之一，但我們會在幾週內提供。而且，我想，套用一下我的話——也呼應一下 Gustavo 的話——我們做的工作越多，我們就越興奮。我預計隨著我們獲得更多鑽探結果，我們將繼續增加鑽探量。坦白說，我們面臨的限制是缺乏足夠的訓練器材，無法繼續進行更多訓練。我認為，在可預見的未來，我們每年都將能夠持續取得動態進步。

But we've seen a step-change in copper, and I'm super excited about that. We see it in our internal valuations. The next, on just more broadly for Base Metals. If you remember in prior quarters, we started restructuring this business about a year ago. In fact, it was about six weeks into my tenure in the role. And the team, I was actually with our operating teams out, we do quarterly reviews with all the asset and functional leads, so just last week, I'd say each of our assets is exceeding their internal commitments and plans. It's quite remarkable.

但銅的價格已經發生了翻天覆地的變化，我對此感到非常興奮。我們在內部估值中也看到了這一點。接下來，我們將更廣泛地討論賤金屬。如果你還記得之前的幾個季度，我們大約在一年前就開始對這項業務進行重組。事實上，那是在我擔任這個職位大約六週後。事實上，我當時和我們的營運團隊在一起，我們每季都會與所有資產和職能負責人進行審查，所以就在上週，我想說我們每個資產都超出了其內部承諾和計劃。這真是令人驚嘆。

And that is looking not at, to your point, byproducts, and as you said, we'll take it, and we're obviously doing the things that we can to enhance recoveries. We've seen Salobo as an example, compared to just a few years ago, we're about 10% ahead on gold recovery. These guys are doing an incredible job, and we're seeing -- we're on track for record copper and gold production this year in Salobo as an example.

正如您所說，我們關注的不是副產品，而是副產品。我們會接受這些副產品，而且我們顯然正在盡一切努力來提高回收率。以薩洛博為例，與幾年前相比，我們現在的黃金回收率大約高出 10%。這些傢伙做得非常出色，我們看到——例如，今年薩洛博的銅和金產量有望創下歷史新高。

But at the same time, the focus is on reliability and fixed overhead reductions, which we're seeing flow through, things we control, which we're seeing flow through into the enablement of the decentralized model that we've spoken about previously. And that is manifesting in things like Sossego. Within a matter of months, a controllable 40% reduction in unit mining costs with changes in practices and engaging that workforce.

但同時，重點是可靠性和固定開銷的降低，我們看到這些正在滲透到我們可控的方面，這些方面正在滲透到我們之前談到的去中心化模式的實現中。而這一點正體現在像 Sossego 這樣的事物中。短短幾個月內，透過改變生產方式和調動員工積極性，可控地降低了單位採礦成本 40%。

We're seeing fixed cost dilution in practically all our operations, specifically the work that has been done in Voisey's where they're now about 20% ahead. And that has enabled Long Harbour in the first time in its 11-year history within a period of months to actually be achieving its design capacity.

我們看到，我們幾乎所有業務的固定成本都在降低，特別是 Voisey's 公司目前的工作，他們現在領先約 20%。這使得長港在其 11 年的歷史中，首次在短短幾個月內就達到了其設計容量。

It's never done that before. And they're doing that through enhanced availability, reliability of the equipment specifically, but significant cost control and being able to drive that through and enhance productivities. And we've still got a long way to go, I'd say, for the business as a whole. We've done well, but we've got more opportunity to achieve benchmark productivities.

它以前從未這樣做過。他們透過提高設備的可用性和可靠性，特別是透過顯著的成本控制，並能夠推動成本控制和提高生產力來實現這一目標。我認為，就整個產業而言，我們還有很長的路要走。我們做得還不錯，但我們還有更多機會達到標竿生產力水準。

Sudbury, I mentioned earlier, is, with the five mines, has achieved significant improvements, and they've done it safely. We've had about a 40% improvement in TRIFR. We -- as you heard in the opening remarks, celebrated in September, bringing the Onça Puma Furnace 2 on -- but 13%-or-so under budget and on time.

我之前提到的薩德伯里，擁有五座礦井，已經取得了顯著的進步，而且他們也安全地完成了這項工作。TRIFR 提高了約 40%。正如您在開場白中聽到的那樣，我們在 9 月慶祝了 Onça Puma Furnace 2 的推出——而且比預算節省了大約 13%，並且按時完成。

And importantly, that is -- we're already (technical difficulty) -- this year with her team has taken that asset now with the fixed cost dilution. And being ahead of her cost commitments, we'll bring that down into the second quartile, which is the ambition for the nickel business to be sustainable.

更重要的是，我們已經（技術難題）——今年，她的團隊已經利用固定成本稀釋效應獲得了這項資產。由於我們提前完成了成本承諾，我們將把成本降低到第二季度水平，這是鎳業務實現永續發展的目標。

And I know specifically on that segment, because I know it's been a challenging one historically, the focus that we've mentioned there is not just to be the beneficiary, which we are as we've ramped up, but more byproducts. And to remind you, at the moment, in the Canadian nickel assets, about half of our revenue is derived from nickel at these prices, and the remainder is copper, cobalt, PGMs and precious metals just generally.

我知道，尤其是在這個領域，因為我知道從歷史上看，這是一個充滿挑戰的領域，我們提到的重點不僅僅是成為受益者（隨著我們規模的擴大，我們確實是受益者），而是要獲得更多副產品。提醒各位，目前在加拿大鎳資產中，以這些價格計算，我們約一半的收入來自鎳，其餘收入來自銅、鈷、鉑族金屬和一般的貴金屬。

We are the beneficiaries and we're seeing enhanced volumes and higher prices that are helping us there. But importantly, the increased volumes that we're seeing flow through are significantly contributing to -- and the low overheads are contributing to the fixed cost dilution and those improvements.

我們是受益者，銷量增加、價格上漲，對我們很有幫助。但重要的是，我們看到銷售量的增加對——以及低營運成本對固定成本稀釋和這些改進都做出了重大貢獻。

And even Thompson, we're seeing the best throughputs in that operation at this stage since, I think, it's 2021. So every asset that I'm seeing at the moment is coming to the party and contributing on what they control. And we have further to go. So I hope that gives you a sense.

即使是湯普森，我們也看到了自 2021 年以來該業務的最佳吞吐量。因此，我目前看到的每項資產都在積極參與，並在其控制的範圍內做出貢獻。我們還有更長的路要走。希望這能讓你有所了解。

Caio Ribeiro, Bank of America.

卡約·裡貝羅，美國銀行。

So my first question is in regard to your expanded net debt. I just wanted to get a sense from you on if and when you could possibly consider a revision of your current range of $10 billion to $20 billion. What's the rationale behind a decision like that?

所以我的第一個問題是關於您擴大後的淨債務。我只是想了解一下，您是否有可能考慮修改目前100億至200億美元的預算範圍，以及修改時間。做出這樣的決定的理由是什麼？

And if you do make any changes, what implications that carries for buybacks and dividends to be announced going forward, particularly if you increase that expanded net debt range at some point?

如果做出任何改變，這對未來宣布的股票回購和分紅會有什麼影響？特別是如果將來某個時候擴大淨債務範圍的話？

And then in second place, my question is on pellets and briquettes. This year, Vale took the decision to cut its pellet production as a reflection of less favorable market conditions. I just wanted to see if you can give us a sense of what signs you're looking for to bring that capacity back, and if there is a particular level of premiums for pellets that you're looking for to take that decision.

其次，我的問題是關於顆粒燃料和煤球燃料。今年，由於市場環境不利，淡水河谷決定削減顆粒燃料產量。我只是想看看您能否告訴我們，您希望看到哪些跡象來恢復產能，以及您是否希望顆粒燃料的溢價達到特定水平才能做出該決定。

And bringing briquettes into the discussion, I just wanted to see if you can give an update on how the development of this product is evolving and whether you're confident at this point of the large-scale applicability of applications of this product.

說到煤球，我想了解產品的研發進度，以及您目前對該產品大規模應用的可行性是否有信心。

Caio, on the expanded net debt we are not envisioning a change in that policy in the short term. I guess the company will gain more and more capital flexibility over time as the relative weight of the reparation commitments becomes smaller in the expanded net debt over time. -- We're going to be in a position where the difference between the net -- the financial net debt and the expanded net debt will be lower and lower. And at some point, we're going to have to review the concept. But for the time being, we believe that both the concept and the range are adequate to our reality.

Caio，關於擴大淨債務的問題，我們預計短期內不會改變這項政策。我認為，隨著賠償承諾在擴大後的淨債務中所佔比例逐漸降低，公司將逐漸獲得更大的資本彈性。 ——屆時，財務淨債務與擴大後的淨債務之間的差額將會越來越小。在某個時候，我們必須重新審視這個概念。但就目前而言，我們認為該概念和範圍都足以滿足我們的實際情況。

Caio, thanks for the question. In terms of pellets, there has been a decrease in demand, at least up until the end of the year, so steel mills outside China, they are operating at lower capacity utilization, primarily due to competition from imported steel from China. And with that, there is a less need for blast furnace productivity, what impacts negatively blast furnace pellet demand. So that's the scenario that we are facing.

Caio，謝謝你的提問。就球團礦而言，需求有所下降，至少到今年年底為止，因此中國以外的鋼鐵廠產能利用率較低，主要是由於來自中國的進口鋼鐵的競爭。因此，對高爐生產率的需求減少，這對高爐球團礦的需求產生了負面影響。這就是我們目前面臨的局面。

Also we have had some additional increase in supply coming from Samarco and from LKAB. The way we see it is the medium term as of end of 2026, 2027, there's going to be a significant increase in demand, especially driven by electric arc furnaces, which are coupled with direct reduction furnaces. So only in Europe, you have many projects ongoing, like all the German companies, from (technical difficulty) Salzgitter-- you have Austria with -- , you name it.

此外，Samarco 和 LKAB 也增加了我們的供應量。我們認為，從中長期來看，到 2026 年底、2027 年，需求將大幅成長，特別是受電弧爐的推動，而電弧爐又與直接還原爐結合。所以只有在歐洲，你才能看到許多正在進行的項目，就像所有德國公司一樣，從（技術難題）薩爾茨吉特到奧地利，等等等等。

You have, in Mexico, you have Ternium, POSCO in Korea. So the amount of the demand for pellets over time is going to increase gradually, also some in the US. But the point is we don't have a target for pellet premiums to open up plants and continue to increase volumes. I mean, we will react to the market on a continuous basis. So we'll bring volumes to the market as we see fit. But our expectation for the years to come is actually very positive. We need just to overcome the sort of this point in time where China is exporting significantly and hurting steel mills, blast furnaces around the globe.

墨西哥有Ternium公司，韓國有POSCO公司。因此，隨著時間的推移，對顆粒的需求量將會逐漸增加，美國的一些地區也是如此。但關鍵是我們沒有顆粒溢價目標來開設工廠並繼續增加產量。我的意思是，我們會持續對市場做出反應。所以我們會根據市場狀況適時投放產品。但我們對未來幾年的預期非常樂觀。我們現在需要克服的就是中國大量出口鋼鐵、損害全球鋼鐵廠和高爐的這種局面。

In terms of briquettes and briquettes development, we are extremely confident. I think we have two kinds of briquettes, one for blast furnace, which have been -- we have a few blast furnaces which are already operating at very high participation of briquettes in their burden mix, in some cases even 100% with very good performance in terms of productivity, in terms of fuel consumption.

就煤球和煤球的開發而言，我們非常有信心。我認為我們有兩種煤球，一種是用於高爐的，我們已經有一些高爐在爐料混合物中煤球的比例非常高，在某些情況下甚至達到 100%，並且在生產率和燃料消耗方面都表現得非常好。

And our challenge now is actually to prove it for direct reduction. We are running some industrial trials by the end of this year, beginning of next year. And our expectation is extremely positive. We should be able to give a better view of the results of this test or these industrial trials in the next call.

而我們現在面臨的挑戰其實是證明它適用於直接還原。我們將在今年年底或明年年初進行一些工業試驗。我們的預期非常樂觀。我們應該能夠在下次電話會議上更好地介紹這項測試或這些工業試驗的結果。

Daniel Sasson, Itau BBA.

Daniel Sasson，Itau BBA。

Most of them have actually been answered, but maybe I'll try to do one that we don't talk that much or that frequently about, which is on Samarco, right? The company got out of its judicial reorganization in third quarter. For those that have been following the story for a long time, I think, and correct me if you think I'm wrong, but investors in general, have kind of zeroed the dividends received -- that could be received by Vale from Samarco.

大多數問題其實都已經得到了解答，但也許我可以嘗試回答一個我們不太常談論或不太常談論的問題，那就是關於薩馬科的問題，對吧？該公司在第三季完成了司法重組。對於那些長期關注此事的人來說，我認為（如果我說錯了請糾正我），投資者普遍已經將淡水河谷可能從薩馬科獲得的股息視為零。

And then right after, the (technical difficulty) -- happened and then Vale started to disclose the potential contributions to the Renova Foundation and so on and so forth. But if you could comment a little bit on how the ramp-up of the second concentrator is doing. And if it's too soon or not maybe to think about the reversal of some of the provisions that you've made for the contribution to the Genova Foundation, if you think that Samarco will be able to take care of those payments themselves and, therefore, some -- that could alleviate the contributions that could be made or that would have to be made by Vale and BHP, that would be great.

然後緊接著，（技術難題）發生了，然後淡水河谷開始披露對雷諾瓦基金會的潛在捐款等等。但如果您能就第二台製氧機的啟動情況稍作評價，那就太好了。如果現在考慮撤銷您為向熱那亞基金會捐款所做的一些安排還為時過早，或者如果您認為薩馬科公司能夠自行支付這些款項，從而減輕淡水河谷和必和必拓可能需要或必須支付的款項，那就太好了。

And my second question, since we're talking about this -- the overhangs or most of the overhangs that Vale has solved over the past 1 year, 1.5 years, you've gone a long way, if you have any updates on the legal case ongoing in the United Kingdom, if we've had any developments there, that would be great. Those are my questions.

既然我們談到了這一點，我的第二個問題是——Vale 在過去一年到一年半的時間裡解決了大部分懸垂問題，你們已經取得了長足的進步，如果你們有任何關於英國正在進行的法律案件的最新進展，或者我們在那方面有什麼進展，那就太好了。這就是我的問題。

Thanks, Daniel. Gustavo here. I'll do the first one and Bacci will cover the second one. Look, we are very happy with the progress that the team in Samarco has been doing. They've ramped up the second concentrator, doing around 15 million tons. They are about to make a decision of going to the third concentration, so Samarco could be getting all the way up to 28 million tons in a few years out.

謝謝你，丹尼爾。我是古斯塔沃。我負責第一個，巴奇負責第二個。你看，我們對薩馬科團隊的進展非常滿意。他們已經提高了第二座選礦廠的產能，年產能約 1500 萬噸。他們即將決定是否進行第三輪選礦，因此薩馬科公司幾年內產量可能高達 2,800 萬噸。

So we are very happy with the operational performance. They now also incorporated the responsibility for the reparation and they've been doing an outstanding work there. So it is a very strategic asset for Vale. I think it's early to talk about impact on provisions. There is still a lot of work to be done there.

因此，我們對營運表現非常滿意。他們現在也承擔了賠償責任，並且在這方面做得非常出色。因此，這對淡水河谷來說是一項非常具有戰略意義的資產。我認為現在談論對供應的影響還為時過早。那裡還有很多工作要做。

But from an asset perspective, it is a very strategic asset that we like very much, and we are very excited with the work that the team has been doing so far.

但從資產角度來看，這是我們非常喜歡的極具戰略意義的資產，我們對團隊迄今為止所做的工作感到非常興奮。

On your second question, Sasson, the UK case is still going on. We expect potential decision of this phase of the case in the coming weeks, sometime in November. That could mean the end of the process if we win or actually not we, but technically BHP, but we share any consequences with BHP.

薩松，關於你的第二個問題，英國的案件仍在進行中。我們預計此案這一階段的判決可能會在未來幾週內做出，最早可能在 11 月。如果我們贏了，這可能意味著整個過程就結束了；或者實際上不是我們贏，而是 BHP 贏了，但我們將與 BHP 共同承擔任何後果。

But if BHP prevails, that would end the process. If not, that would leave the process to another phase that will take a few years in order to quantify the potential losses of the climates. Important to mention that some of the claimants that were initially part of the lawsuit in the UK have decided to join the Brazil agreement, which we believe is the main means to compensate the impacted people.

但如果必和必拓勝訴，那麼整個過程就結束了。否則，該過程將進入另一個階段，需要幾年時間才能量化氣候可能遭受的損失。值得一提的是，最初參與英國訴訟的一些索賠人已經決定加入巴西協議，我們認為這是補償受影響民眾的主要途徑。

So out of the more than 300,000 individuals that joined the Brazil agreement, half of those at least were part of the UK agreement. So they decided to give up on the UK in order to join the Brazil agreement, and they have been also already paid in Brazil. And a part of the municipalities also joined the Brazil agreement. And the part that have not joined have been provided for in the provisions that we constituted in Brazil.

因此，在加入巴西協議的 30 多萬人中，至少有一半也加入了英國協議。因此，他們決定放棄英國，加入巴西協議，並且已經在巴西獲得了報酬。部分市政當局也加入了巴西協議。而那些尚未加入的人員，已依照我們在巴西製定的條款安置。

So we consider that the case in the UK still goes on. There may be an additional impact in our numbers coming from that, but part of that has been resolved already.

所以我們認為英國的案件仍在繼續。這可能會對我們的數據產生額外影響，但部分問題已解決。

Caio Greiner, UBS.

Caio Greiner，瑞銀集團。

My first question, to Rogério on China Mineral Resources Group. So Rogério, we understand they have reached a significant portion overall Chinese iron ore purchases. And so I wanted to hear from you. How are the talks going with -- between Vale and them? There are obviously news of a competitor that has been having some issues on those discussions.

我的第一個問題是問羅熱裡奧關於中國礦產資源集團的問題。據我們了解，羅熱裡奧，他們已經佔據了中國鐵礦石總採購量的很大一部分。所以我想聽聽你們的意見。Vale和他們之間的談判進展如何？顯然有消息稱，一家競爭對手在這些討論中遇到了一些問題。

So I just wanted to understand what has been Vale's strategy on negotiating with them, and if you can share with us what has been the focus point of those negotiations, if there are any talks of any sort of long-term supply agreement. Any color there would be helpful to us.

所以我想了解一下淡水河谷在與他們談判時的策略是什麼，如果您能和我們分享這些談判的重點是什麼，以及是否有任何關於長期供應協議的討論，那就太好了。任何顏色對我們都有幫助。

And the second one, actually a follow-up to the previous expanded net debt question, but more focus on the methodology. I guess for Bacci. More questions have been emerging since you guys announced the perpetual debenture repurchase and whether or not this would raise the expanded net debt figure, if it would impact dividends, which you guys already talked about.

第二個問題其實是對先前擴大後的淨債務問題的後續，但更著重於方法論。我猜是給巴奇的。自從你們宣布永久債券回購計劃以來，出現了更多的問題，例如這是否會增加擴大後的淨債務數字，以及這是否會影響股息（你們已經談到過這一點）。

But at the end of the day, I think the point is, there are other debt-like instruments on Vale's balance sheet, which are not really included in the expanded net debt methodology. So I wanted to understand, how does Vale internally look at its overall debt burden or obligations, whatever we can call it?

但歸根結底，我認為關鍵在於，淡水河谷的資產負債表上還有其他類似債務的工具，這些工具並沒有真正包含在擴大後的淨債務計算方法中。所以我想了解的是，淡水河谷內部是如何看待其整體債務負擔或義務的，不管我們怎麼稱呼它？

And is the expanded net debt method actually the one that you most use inside of the company? And if not, if there are any plans to rethink this methodology, change the methodology going forward and eventually even raise the target range?

那麼，擴大後的淨債務法真的是貴公司最常使用的方法嗎？如果沒有，是否有任何計劃重新考慮這種方法，改變未來的方法，甚至最終提高目標範圍？

Okay. Caio, Rogério, thanks for the question. Now first of all, I think we're following closely the negotiations CMRG has been having with other iron ore players. And we are also in talks with CMRG. But I'd like to just reinforce that China has been a very historical partner for us and we have an extensive history of cooperation with our Chinese partners.

好的。Caio、Rogério，謝謝你的提問。首先，我認為我們正在密切關注 CMRG 與其他鐵礦石企業進行的談判。我們目前也在與CMRG進行洽談。但我還是要強調，中國一直是我們歷史悠久的合作夥伴，我們與中國夥伴有著廣泛的合作歷史。

For example, we've developed the BRBF with Chinese clients. We have a comprehensive network of blending facilities, which we've developed with the Chinese ports. We've developed the VLOCs with Chinese shipyards and ship owners. So there's a long history of collaboration.

例如，我們與中國客戶共同開發了 BRBF。我們與中國港口合作，建立了完善的混合設施網路。我們與中國造船廠和船東共同開發了超大型礦船（VLOC）。所以雙方有著悠久的合作歷史。

So given this, as I say, long-standing relationship, and the value that we place in China, we have held comprehensive conversations with CMRG along the years, but we've always explored win-win alternatives, understanding that, and this is important, that we have a product portfolio that is unique, and it's very complementary to the all other offering that China has.

鑑於我所說的這種長期合作關係，以及我們對中國的重視，多年來我們與中國行動通訊集團（CMRG）進行了全面的對話，但我們始終在探索雙贏的替代方案，因為我們明白，而且這一點很重要，我們擁有獨特的產品組合，並且與中國現有的所有其他產品非常互補。

So having that in mind, we are working with them just to find win-win solutions. I'll be there, I will be -- next weeks. We're talking to them. But we hope to find sort of win-win solutions for Vale and for China.

因此，考慮到這一點，我們正在與他們合作，尋求雙贏的解決方案。下週我一定會到場。我們正在和他們溝通。但我們希望找到對淡水河谷和中國來說雙贏的解決方案。

Caio, on the expanded net debt, it is indeed the indicator that we use internally for the evaluation of our capital structure. We do have the participation of debentures as an additional instrument that is not included in the net debt concept, but that's because of the nature of that instrument. That is a perpetual instrument where we have the net present value of that recorded as a liability, but as a nonfinancial liability in our balance sheet.

Caio，關於擴大後的淨債務，這確實是我們內部用來評估資本結構的指標。我們確實有債券參與，這是一種不計入淨債務概念的額外工具，但這主要是因為該工具的性質所致。這是一個永續年金，其淨現值被記錄為負債，但作為資產負債表中的非金融負債。

So it is an obligation anyway that will have to be paid in terms of the interest or the semiannual interest that we pay. But the principal amount is recorded in another balance sheet line. We continue to think that the expanded net debt is the right way to look at this because we still have a significant amount of reparations to be paid.

所以無論如何，這都是我們必須履行的義務，就是支付利息或半年利息。但本金金額記錄在資產負債表的另一項。我們仍然認為，擴大淨債務規模是看待這個問題的正確方法，因為我們仍然有大量的賠償金需要支付。

As I said, during '26 and '27, a very important part of those payments will have to be performed. So by the end of '27 or mid-'27, we're going to have a much lower difference between financial debt and expanded debt, which means that we may be in a position to review the concept.

正如我所說，在 2026 年和 2027 年期間，這些款項中非常重要的一部分必須支付。因此，到 2027 年底或 2027 年年中，金融債務和擴張債務之間的差距將會小得多，這意味著我們或許可以重新審視這個概念。

It is important to notice that the obligation related to reparations is different from a regular debt because it cannot be refinanced. We need to pay as they mature. So that's why it's important to keep that concept at this point. But as I said, in the coming years, we're going to be in a position to review that.

值得注意的是，與賠償相關的義務與普通債務不同，因為它不能再融資。我們需要在債券到期時支付利息。所以，在目前這個階段，保留這個概念非常重要。但正如我所說，在未來幾年，我們將有機會對此進行重新審視。

Marcio Farid, Goldman Sachs.

馬爾西奧·法里德，高盛集團。

Rogério, another one for you. You're In very high demand today. How should we think about the change in the benchmark grades into next year? Obviously, Platts moving from 62% to 61% fee. [alumina, silica] and I think phosphorus benchmarks also increasing into next year as well.

羅傑裡奧，又一個給你。你現在非常搶手。我們該如何看待明年基準成績的變化？顯然，普氏能源資訊將氧化鋁和二氧化矽的費率從 62% 下調至 61%。我認為磷的基準價格明年也會上漲。

Seems to be part of a natural industry transition into lower-grade assets. But how should we think about that? And our understanding is that, especially for flat steel, which is -- I think is becoming more relevant than long steels now in China, flat is relatively more -- it's more important, especially when you think about (technical difficulty) -- content, and I think they are more sensitive to that.

這似乎是產業向低等級資產自然轉型的一部分。但我們該如何看待這個問題呢？我們的理解是，特別是對於扁鋼而言，我認為扁鋼在中國比長材更為重要，扁鋼相對而言更重要，尤其是在考慮（技術難度）含量時，我認為他們對此更加敏感。

So how does Vale plays into that trend in terms of benchmark change and the change in terms of product mix in China going forward as well?

那麼，淡水河谷將如何適應中國市場基準變化和產品組合變化的趨勢？

And maybe the second one to Gustavo. Gustavo, obviously, good job on the operational front being done in the last year or so. I think you've been talking on the media and you've mentioned that you -- Vale has regained the first part in terms of the largest iron ore producer potentially this year, but with higher confidence next year. So it's great.

或許第二個是給古斯塔沃的。顯然，古斯塔沃在過去一年左右的時間裡，在營運方面做得非常出色。我認為你一直在媒體上談論這件事，你也提到過——淡水河谷今年可能已經重新奪回了最大鐵礦石生產商的頭把交椅，但明年更有信心。所以這很棒。

But obviously, when we look at company size in terms of market cap or whatever other metrics you want to look at, Vale has clearly lagged peers as well, right? So everybody is asking about how we can expedite copper growth. And we obviously have other iron ore projects to be delivered into next year as well, especially in the north.

但顯然，當我們從市值或其他任何指標來衡量公司規模時，淡水河谷顯然也落後於同行，對吧？所以大家都在問如何才能加速銅礦的成長。顯然，我們明年還有其他鐵礦石項目需要交付，尤其是在北部地區。

So there's more value to be created for sure. But is there a strategy from the Board or from management to catch up to that lag. I mean when we look at Vale's ranking on a global scale, again, it's lost some position, right? So is there a strategy there? Or is it just it is what it is and you keep doing what you have in terms of internal endowment? That's obviously another way to ask about M&A or any other ways to grow the business in a faster mode.

所以肯定還有更多價值可以創造。但董事會或管理階層是否有應對這一差距的策略？我的意思是，當我們從全球範圍來看淡水河谷的排名時，它又一次失去了一些位置，對吧？所以這裡面有什麼策略嗎？或者，事情就是這樣，你只能繼續做你自身固有的能力範圍內的事情？這顯然是詢問併購或其他任何能更快發展業務的方式的另一種方式。

Marcio, to begin with the benchmark with the PRAs, this is a very good question. Indeed, there's a bit of uncertainty right now as most of our competitors are moving their product grades more towards 61%, such as the Pilbara Blend at 60.8. The agencies are discussing about migrating from the index 62 to an index 61. At this point in time, they are going to be publishing a very differential between the index 62 and the index 61. But probably down the road, the prevailing index will be a 61.

Marcio，首先，關於 PRA 的基準，這是一個很好的問題。的確，目前存在一些不確定性，因為我們的大多數競爭對手都在將其產品等級向 61% 靠攏，例如皮爾巴拉混合煤的 60.8%。各機構正在討論從指數 62 過渡到指數 61。目前，他們將公佈指數 62 和指數 61 之間存在很大的差異。但從長遠來看，主流指數可能會是 61。

We are -- our products are actually higher, even our BRBF is a 63% FE content. We're discussing with the index, for example, the possibility of launching -- and with the PRAs, that we're talking about metal bulletin plots (technical difficulty) -- about the possibility of launching a low alumina 61. It's important to say that our products are always sold at the specification, which is higher fee. Let's say, BRBF is 63, but when we bring it to an index, it's normalized for FE, okay?

我們的產品——實際上含量更高，甚至我們的 BRBF 的 FE 含量也達到了 63%。例如，我們正在與指數討論推出低氧化鋁 61 的可能性——並且與 PRA 討論，我們正在討論金屬公告圖表（技術困難）——需要說明的是，我們的產品始終按照規格出售，因此價格也更高。假設 BRBF 為 63，但當我們將其轉換為指數時，它會根據 FE 進行歸一化，好嗎？

So there shouldn't be much of a change. We will be discussing with the agencies what makes sense for us to sort of to compare our products with, what is the best reference, what's the most liquid reference. But this is still ongoing, okay?

所以應該不會有太大變化。我們將與各機構討論，對我們來說，將我們的產品與什麼進行比較才更有意義，什麼才是最佳參考標準，什麼才是最可靠的參考標準。但這件事還在進行中，懂嗎？

In terms of [FOS] content, you're absolutely right, [FOS] is becoming more and more important, especially when you have such large volumes of products such as [the Yandi] from BHP and Rio Tinto coming out of the market. And [FOS] should be one of the specific elements that has to come into the specs, has to be valued and put into a value difference. We are working on this front, so we'll give you more update as we firm up a solution.

就 [FOS] 內容而言，您說得完全正確，[FOS] 變得越來越重要，尤其是在像必和必拓和力拓的 [Yandi] 這樣的大量產品湧入市場時。[FOS] 應該是規範中必須包含的具體要素之一，必須對其進行評估並納入價值差異。我們正在努力解決這個問題，一旦找到解決方案，我們會及時向您報告最新進展。

So Marcio, Gustavo here. On your second question, look, we agree with you. I think there is still enormous opportunity for Vale to unlock value. I think this management team is highly focused on that. And despite some of the rerate we had recently, we still believe there is a lot of opportunities for us to continue to advance and regain our position in the market from a market cap standpoint. That's what we are working on. And this is the legacy we want to leave, be very focused on value creation as we go along.

我是馬爾西奧，我是古斯塔沃。關於你的第二個問題，我們同意你的看法。我認為淡水河谷仍有巨大的機會釋放其價值。我認為這個管理團隊非常重視這一點。儘管我們最近經歷了一些重新估值，但我們仍然相信，從市值角度來看，我們有很多機會繼續前進並重新奪回我們在市場中的地位。這就是我們正在努力的方向。這就是我們想要留下的遺產，那就是在前進的過程中始終專注於創造價值。

And our view is that the value we will accrue and we'll regain it if we continue to operate our assets well, that we are outstanding in terms of operational performance. So the results you've seen, it is highly encouraging, and I think we can do even better, not only in iron ore, but also in base metals. So this is a key priority for us. And in this industry, this is one of the most important things that you have to master.

我們的觀點是，如果我們繼續良好地經營我們的資產，我們將獲得並重新獲得價值，我們在營運績效方面非常出色。所以你們看到的成果非常令人鼓舞，我認為我們不僅可以在鐵礦石領域，而且在基本金屬領域，還能做得更好。所以這是我們的首要任務。在這個行業裡，這是你必須掌握的最重要的技能之一。

But we also see Vale as a company with potential highly-accretive growth opportunities. If we look at the comps and the capital intensity for some of our competitors, just to stand still, is substantially larger than us. And I think sometimes this is underappreciated by the market. Vale has a unique potential to bring volumes and grow with a capital intensity that is substantially better and more competitive than our competitors.

但我們也認為淡水河谷是一家具有巨大加值潛力的公司。如果我們看一下同業比較數據，就會發現我們的一些競爭對手僅僅為了維持現狀，其資本密集度就遠高於我們。我認為市場有時低估了這一點。淡水河谷擁有獨特的潛力，能夠以遠優於競爭對手的資本密集度實現產量成長和業務擴張，更具競爭力。

So if a few years out we are doing 360 million tons of iron ore, with the right mix of assets, lower cost, this is going to be, for sure, the most competitive iron ore platform in the world, I have no doubt about it. And I'm feeling more comfortable that we'll be able to get to that future.

所以，如果幾年後我們能夠生產 3.6 億噸鐵礦石，並且擁有合適的資產組合，降低成本，那麼這肯定會成為世界上最具競爭力的鐵礦石平台，對此我毫不懷疑。我越來越有信心，我們能夠實現那個未來。

And if we can double the size of copper and, tomorrow, do 700 kilotons, not 350, leverage the endowment, another unique advantage of Vale, the endowment that we have. We don't have to go through other places. M&A, yes, a lot of people are doing M&A. But we don't need to do. We do have the resources here.

如果我們能夠將銅的產量翻一番，並且明天將達到 700 千噸而不是 350 千噸，那麼我們將利用我們擁有的天賦——淡水河谷的另一個獨特優勢。我們不必去其他地方。併購，是的，很多人都在做併購。但我們沒必要這樣做。我們這裡確實有資源。

So it may take a little longer. But remember, we are very focused on value creation here. So I'd rather take a little more time, but develop the right projects with the right level of returns and grow consistently. Because I think that's what it's going to, a few years out, create sustainable value for our shareholders. That's what this team is very focused on. And I think it's in our hands to deliver.

所以可能需要更長時間。但請記住，我們非常注重價值創造。所以我寧願多花點時間，開發出回報合適的項目，並實現持續成長。因為我認為，幾年後，它將為我們的股東創造可持續的價值。這就是這支隊伍非常關注的重點。我認為能否達成這個目標掌握在我們手中。

Thank you. This concludes today's question-and-answer session. I would now like to close the conference. We thank you for your participation, and wish you a nice day.

謝謝。今天的問答環節到此結束。現在我想宣布會議結束。感謝您的參與，祝您有美好的一天。