UWM Holdings Corp (UWMC) 2025 Q2 法說會逐字稿

Hello, everyone, and good morning. My name is Jim, and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the UWM Holdings Corporation second quarter 2025 earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions)

大家好，早安。我叫吉姆，今天我將擔任您的會議主持人。現在，我歡迎大家參加 UWM Holdings Corporation 2025 年第二季財報電話會議。（操作員指示）

Blake Kolo, you may begin your conference.

布萊克·科洛，您可以開始您的會議了。

Good morning. This is Blake Kolo, Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Relations. Thank you for joining us, and welcome to the second quarter 2025 UWM Holdings Corporation's earnings call.

早安.我是首席商務官兼投資者關係主管布萊克‧科洛 (Blake Kolo)。感謝您的加入，歡迎參加 2025 年第二季 UWM Holdings Corporation 的財報電話會議。

Before we start, I would like to remind everyone that this conference call includes forward-looking statements. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements, please refer to the earnings release that we issued this morning.

在我們開始之前，我想提醒大家，本次電話會議包含前瞻性陳述。有關可能導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述存在重大差異的因素的更多信息，請參閱我們今天上午發布的收益報告。

Our commentary today will also include non-GAAP financial measures. For information on our non-GAAP metrics and the reconciliation between GAAP and non-GAAP metrics for the reported results, please refer to the earnings release issued earlier today as well as our filings with the SEC.

我們今天的評論還將包括非公認會計準則財務指標。有關我們的非公認會計準則 (non-GAAP) 指標以及報告結果的公認會計準則 (GAAP) 和非公認會計準則 (non-GAAP) 指標之間的調節的信息，請參閱今天早些時候發布的收益報告以及我們向美國證券交易委員會 (SEC) 提交的文件。

I will now turn the call over to Matt Ishbia, Chairman, President and CEO of UWM Holdings Corporation and United Wholesale Mortgage.

現在我將電話轉交給 UWM Holdings Corporation 和 United Wholesale Mortgage 的董事長、總裁兼執行長 Matt Ishbia。

Thanks, Blake, and thank you, everyone, for joining today. UWM strong, consistent and differentiated values continue to be the foundation for everything we do here. Every day, our team of more than 9,000 people delivered the best products and services to the broker community, which in turn benefits homeowners with significant cost savings and a world-class mortgage experience.

謝謝，布萊克，也謝謝大家今天的參加。UWM 強大、一致且差異化的價值觀繼續成為我們在這裡所做的一切的基礎。每天，我們擁有超過 9,000 名員工的團隊為經紀人社區提供最好的產品和服務，從而使房主受益，節省大量成本並獲得世界一流的抵押貸款體驗。

Our operating profile and relentless drive to deliver results run themselves to a consistent message with the investment community. UWM is uniquely positioned to win in any market environment. While others have pulled back, UWM has doubled down, proving that we can and will dominate the purchase market regardless of market cycles. And when rates come down, we'll leverage our world-class operating system and industry-best technology that we have developed for brokers to scale and dominate.

我們的經營狀況和不懈追求成果的動力向投資界傳達了一致的訊息。UWM 在任何市場環境中都具有取勝的獨特優勢。當其他公司紛紛撤退時，UWM 卻加倍下注，證明無論市場週期如何，我們都能並且將會主導購買市場。當利率下降時，我們將利用我們為經紀商開發的世界一流的作業系統和行業最佳技術來擴大規模並佔據主導地位。

Over the last several years, we've built scalability in our business by investing in technology. While you are many other companies using AI as a buzzword, the difference is actually at UWM, we have products and services that are powered by AI that are actually impacting our business today and will impact our business even more when rates drop and just going forward in the future.

在過去的幾年裡，我們透過投資技術實現了業務的可擴展性。雖然許多其他公司都在使用人工智慧作為流行詞，但 UWM 的不同之處在於，我們擁有由人工智慧驅動的產品和服務，這些產品和服務實際上正在影響我們當前的業務，並且當利率下降以及未來向前發展時，它們將對我們的業務產生更大的影響。

Years ago, we invested heavily to build our AI-based underwriting system, BOLT. While underwriters and most lenders can do 2 or 3 loans per day, maybe even 4, we can do 2, 3x or more per day than anyone else in the country. Our loan quality is better because of this technology and will continue to improve.

幾年前，我們投入大量資金建構了基於人工智慧的核保系統 BOLT。雖然承銷商和大多數貸款機構每天可以發放 2 到 3 筆貸款，甚至 4 筆，但我們每天發放的貸款數量是國內其他任何機構的 2 倍、3 倍甚至更多。由於這項技術，我們的貸款品質變得更好，並將繼續提高。

So here at UWM, we can say AI is making a big impact on our business today. Another example of AI actually working is ChatUWM, which is similar to ChatGPT, but for mortgages. Our brokers and team members now use this as a primary resource for accessing job aids, guidelines and other information that arises that they need on a mortgage transaction.

因此，在威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校，我們可以說人工智慧正在對我們今天的業務產生巨大的影響。人工智慧實際發揮作用的另一個例子是 ChatUWM，它與 ChatGPT 類似，但用於抵押貸款。我們的經紀人和團隊成員現在將其作為獲取抵押交易中所需的工作輔助、指南和其他資訊的主要資源。

And within this is LEO, loan estimate optimizer, which we launched at UWM Live on May 16. LEO helps brokers compete and win by showing exactly how they can beat a competitor's loan estimate. All they need to do is drag and drop the borrowers loan estimate into LEO and they get a detailed analysis of tips and how to win a specific loan.

其中包括貸款估算優化器 LEO，我們於 5 月 16 日在 UWM Live 上推出了它。LEO 透過準確展示如何擊敗競爭對手的貸款估算來幫助經紀人競爭並獲勝。他們只需將借款人的貸款估算拖放到 LEO 中，即可獲得有關如何獲得特定貸款的詳細分析。

And finally, the big noise and big opportunity is around Mia. Mia has been a huge, huge success. It's an AI loan officer assistant. Mia is designed to help loan officers do more loans and get more business. right? She is the ultimate loan officer she works 24/7, 365. She doesn't get days off.

最後，巨大的喧囂和機會都圍繞著米婭。米婭取得了巨大的成功。這是一款人工智慧貸款專員助理。Mia 旨在幫助貸款人員發放更多貸款並獲得更多業務。對嗎？她是一名終極貸款員，她一年 365 天、每天 24 小時都在工作。她沒有休息日。

We rolled this out at UWM. The broker feedback was incredible. We rolled out at UWM Live back in May. We've been using it every single day, and it's having so much success, were scheduling meetings and helping brokers get more business, and that's really the game.

我們在威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校推出了這項計畫。經紀人的反饋令人難以置信。我們於 5 月在 UWM Live 上推出了該產品。我們每天都在使用它，並且它取得了很大的成功，我們安排了會議並幫助經紀人獲得更多業務，這才是真正的遊戲。

Now a stat that we are big on here at UWM is now 97% of all consumers that work with a mortgage broker give a 5-star review, which is phenomenal, unbelievable information. But only 10% of those people remember who the mortgage broker is when they go to refinance their mortgage because so much time has gone by. And until now, brokers haven't had great tools to stay in front of their business in front of their past borrowers.

現在，我們在 UWM 這裡非常重視的一個統計數據是，現在與抵押貸款經紀人合作的所有消費者中有 97% 都給出了 5 星評價，這是一個驚人的、令人難以置信的信息。但由於時間已經過去太久，只有 10% 的人在去再融資抵押貸款時記得抵押貸款經紀人是誰。到目前為止，經紀人還沒有很好的工具來在之前的借款人面前保持業務領先地位。

So Mia changes all of that. She'll stay in front of them, and we think that 10% number could go to 30%, 40%, maybe even 50% of them know who their mortgage broker, which just guarantees more business for brokers, which helps UWM, and the broker channel continue to grow.

所以米婭改變了這一切。她會一直走在他們前面，我們認為這個數字可能會上升到 30%、40%，甚至 50%，他們知道誰是他們的抵押貸款經紀人，這保證了經紀人的更多業務，這有助於 UWM 和經紀人管道繼續增長。

She makes thousands of outbound calls every single day. She takes inbound calls, she sets appointments. All this is happening today. It's not something that we plan on doing and some cool thing that we're going to tell you that's going to happen in 2028. It's happening today and it's impacting business today. And if rates tick down a little bit more, it will impact business greatly today and this year.

她每天要撥打數千通電話。她接聽來電，安排約會。這一切都發生在今天。這不是我們計劃要做的事情，而是我們要告訴你將在 2028 年發生的一些很酷的事情。它正在發生並且影響著當今的商業。如果利率進一步下降，將對目前和今年的業務產生巨大影響。

Supplying brokers with the best tools and technology helps them win, and the channel continues to post higher and higher overall market share. Broker share of all direct lending has more than doubled since 2016, reaching about 30%. Our goal is for brokers to be number 1. And in my mind, that means 50.1%. I don't know if that will take 5 years or 15 years, but we're going to grind it out and make sure it happens.

為經紀商提供最好的工具和技術有助於他們成功，而該通路的整體市場份額將繼續越來越高。自 2016 年以來，經紀人在所有直接貸款中的份額增加了一倍多，達到約 30%。我們的目標是讓經紀商成為第一名。在我看來，這意味著 50.1%。我不知道這是否需要 5 年或 15 年，但我們會堅持下去並確保它實現。

It's best for consumers. It's best for real estate agents. It's best for loan officers, which is why the channel continues to grow. I'm super excited about the opportunity as we continue to build this together. And a lot of the AI things I talked about will help brokers scale, help UWM scale, and we're going to all win together.

這對消費者來說是最好的。這對於房地產經紀人來說是最好的。這對於貸款人員來說是最好的，這也是該管道持續成長的原因。我對這個機會感到非常興奮，因為我們將繼續共同建立這個事業。我談到的許多人工智慧技術將幫助經紀商擴大規模，幫助 UWM 擴大規模，我們將共同實現共贏。

Okay. Let's get into the quarter. We closed $39.7 billion of production, our best quarter since 2021 and almost 20% higher than last year's second quarter. We did about $12.4 billion of refi volume, which is double what we did last year's second quarter and represents about 11% of the volume in the industry, which is really interesting because most people think you need to have the client in your servicing book to refinance them.

好的。讓我們進入本季。我們完成了 397 億美元的生產，這是自 2021 年以來最好的季度，比去年第二季度高出近 20%。我們的再融資額約為 124 億美元，是去年第二季度的兩倍，約佔行業再融資額的 11%，這真的很有趣，因為大多數人認為你需要將客戶納入你的服務範圍才能對其進行再融資。

First, we don't refinance any borrowers, our brokers do. But second, we only own about 2% of the industry servicing market. So for us to do 11%-plus really just proves the age-old theory that you must have the servicing to the refi. When you deliver a world-class experience, we get 97% of borrowers giving a 5-star rating. It really doesn't matter how big your servicing book. It gives brokers the ability to excel on refinances, and you're seeing that in real time here with UWM.

首先，我們不為任何借款人提供再融資，我們的經紀人負責。但其次，我們僅擁有約 2% 的產業服務市場。因此，對我們來說，11% 以上的利率實際上只是證明了一個古老的理論，即必須為再融資提供服務。當您提供世界一流的體驗時，我們會獲得 97% 的借款人給予的 5 星評級。您的服務手冊有多大其實並不重要。它使經紀人能夠在再融資方面表現出色，您可以透過 UWM 即時看到這一點。

Additionally, we originated $27.3 billion of purchases. This is our third best purchase quarter of all time, and this is a big number in the market that we're in right now, and it's tracking to do over $100 billion this year.

此外，我們也發起了 273 億美元的採購。這是我們有史以來第三好的購買季度，對於我們目前的市場來說，這是一個很大的數字，預計今年將超過 1000 億美元。

Gain on sale margin was 113 basis points, which is up a lot since the first quarter. We also had a pretty good quarter of earnings, $314.5 million in net income, demonstrating the earnings power of our business, and that also included $111 million decline in fair value of our MSRs. Our playbook won't change, invest in our business, win, grow the broker channel and repeat.

銷售利潤率為113個基點，自第一季以來大幅上升。我們本季的獲利情況也相當不錯，淨收入為 3.145 億美元，證明了我們業務的獲利能力，其中還包括 MSR 公允價值下降 1.11 億美元。我們的劇本不會改變，投資我們的業務，贏得勝利，發展經紀人管道並重複。

I'll now turn the call over to our CFO, Rami Hasani, to go over some more numbers.

現在我將把電話轉給我們的財務長 Rami Hasani，來討論更多數字。

Thank you, Matt. Q2 was a strong quarter for us. Net income of $314.5 million and adjusted EBITDA of $195.7 million. Production volume of $39.7 billion, up $7.3 billion from Q1 and gain margin of 113 basis points, up by 19 basis points from Q1. And consistently maintaining a strong MSR portfolio of $211.2 billion in UPB and WAC of 5.51%. All this while never skipping a beat on service with best-in-class Net Promoter Score of 87, again, a strong and successful quarter by all measures.

謝謝你，馬特。第二季度對我們來說是一個強勁的季度。淨收入為 3.145 億美元，調整後 EBITDA 為 1.957 億美元。產值397億美元，較一季增加73億美元，利差113個基點，較一季增加19個基點。並持續保持強勁的 MSR 投資組合，UPB 為 2,112 億美元，WAC 為 5.51%。同時，我們的服務也絲毫沒有受到影響，其淨推薦值達到 87，位居同類最佳，從各方面來看，這又是一個強勁而成功的季度。

To support our growth, we continue to invest in our people, processes and developing innovative technology to prepare us and our broker partners for growth in 2025 and beyond. We remain on strategy with our investments to be prepared for significant market opportunities for us and our broker partners. As we've said before, we believe our business is positioned to handle twice our current production volume with minimal impact to fixed costs. We are prepared and excited for the future.

為了支持我們的成長，我們繼續投資於我們的人才、流程和開發創新技術，為我們和我們的經紀合作夥伴在 2025 年及以後的成長做好準備。我們將繼續堅持投資策略，為我們和我們的經紀合作夥伴抓住重大市場機會做好準備。正如我們之前所說，我們相信我們的業務能夠處理目前生產量的兩倍，同時對固定成本的影響最小。我們已經做好了準備，並對未來充滿期待。

We also remain well capitalized with total equity of $1.7 billion, up from $1.6 billion in Q1 and continue to be in a strong liquidity position, cash of $490 million, total available liquidity of $2.2 billion and an MSR portfolio of $3.4 billion. We continue to assess and evaluate the opportunistic refinancing of our $800 million unsecured notes maturing in November of 2025.

我們的資本充足率仍然很高，總股本為 17 億美元，高於第一季的 16 億美元，並且繼續保持強勁的流動性狀況，現金為 4.9 億美元，總可用流動資金為 22 億美元，MSR 投資組合為 34 億美元。我們將繼續評估和評估 2025 年 11 月到期的 8 億美元無擔保票據的機會性再融資。

And given the current market conditions and strong investor demand for our last offering, we expect a favorable outcome in refinancing these notes. And as part of all this, we continue to maintain capital and liquidity leverage ratios within what we believe to be acceptable ranges in the current market environment.

鑑於當前的市場狀況和投資者對我們上次發行的強勁需求，我們預計這些票據的再融資將取得良好的結果。作為這一切的一部分，我們將繼續把資本和流動性槓桿率維持在我們認為當前市場環境下可接受的範圍內。

In summary, Q2 was a great quarter for us with strong production, gain margin and net income performance. We continue to invest to be the most prepared mortgage company in America. We are also prepared from a capital liquidity perspective and believe that we're well positioned operationally and financially for any market cycle.

總而言之，第二季度對我們來說是一個偉大的季度，生產、利潤率和淨收入表現強勁。我們將繼續投資，以成為美國最有準備的抵押貸款公司。我們也從資本流動性的角度做好了準備，並相信我們在營運和財務上已經為任何市場週期做好了準備。

I will turn things back over to our Chairman, President and CEO, Matt Ishbia, for closing remarks.

我將把會議交還給我們的董事長、總裁兼執行長 Matt Ishbia，請他作最後發言。

Thanks, Rami. Appreciate it. And I'll close with a few points before the Q&A. First, our work to bring servicing in-house is progressing nicely. As I told you before, we'll have that done in the first quarter of next year. We'll have some positive financial impact to our business in 2026 and beyond.

謝謝，拉米。非常感謝。在問答環節之前，我想先談幾點。首先，我們將服務引入內部的工作進展順利。正如我之前告訴你的，我們將在明年第一季完成這項工作。我們將對 2026 年及以後的業務產生一些正面的財務影響。

More importantly than that, this gives UWM complete control of the borrower experience. We'll deliver the same world-class service we're known for on the servicing side, which will drive increased loyalty to brokers in UWM. Right now, in the market, it's not done that way on the servicing side, and UWM will be best-in-class.

更重要的是，這使得 UWM 能夠完全控制借款人的體驗。我們將提供我們在服務方面所聞名的相同的世界級服務，這將提高 UWM 經紀人的忠誠度。目前，市場上的服務方面還沒有做到這一點，而 UWM 將成為同類中最好的。

We recently partnered with a company called Built, which will help make an amazing front-end experience for the consumers in a lot of places, which I'll explain very soon. It will make a huge impact. I'm really excited about bringing servicing in-house and helping UWM dominate on this part of the business, just like we do in origination.

我們最近與一家名為 Built 的公司合作，這將幫助為許多地方的消費者帶來令人驚嘆的前端體驗，我很快就會解釋這一點。這將產生巨大的影響。我真的很高興將服務引入公司內部並幫助 UWM 主導這部分業務，就像我們在發起業務中所做的那樣。

All right. Turning to guidance. Based on where rates are and where they've been, I expect the third quarter production to be around $33 billion to $40 billion. And now I'm actually going to improve the guidance on the margin up 2 levels to 100 to 125 basis points. Based on the markets they've been in, I feel confident this is the first time in four years to move the margins up to those levels.

好的。轉向指導。根據目前的利率和過去的利率，我預計第三季的產量將在 330 億美元至 400 億美元左右。現在我實際上要將利潤率指導提高 2 個級別，至 100 至 125 個基點。根據他們所處的市場，我相信這是四年來利潤率首次升至這些水準。

And I'm excited about what's going to happen in the future, even in this tough market, but we see some reasons to believe the market is going to open up in a positive way going forward. I really believe that UWM is positioned to be great in the third quarter, the fourth quarter and into 2026. We're really excited about our business.

我對未來將要發生的事情感到興奮，即使在這個艱難的市場中，但我們有理由相信未來市場將以積極的方式開放。我堅信 UWM 將在第三季、第四季以及 2026 年取得優異成績。我們對我們的業務感到非常興奮。

I'll turn it over to questions from all of you guys now.

現在我將回答大家的問題。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Bose George, KBW.

博斯喬治，KBW。

Actually, just first on the guidance and the higher gain on sale margins. Does that reflect market trends? Or are you prioritizing higher margins a little more? Or just can you give us color on that?

實際上，首先要考慮的是指導和更高的銷售利潤率。這反映了市場趨勢嗎？還是您更看重更高的利潤率？或者您能給我們詳細解釋一下嗎？

Yes. No, we just understand the market. Like we obviously have a view at the market and understanding what we're doing and what our clients need and what's going on in the markets that maybe others don't have that same view as you've seen, our margins sometimes look a lot different than everybody else's.

是的。不，我們只是了解市場。就像我們顯然對市場有自己的看法，了解我們在做什麼、我們的客戶需要什麼以及市場正在發生什麼，而其他人可能並不像您所看到的那樣有同樣的看法，我們的利潤率有時看起來與其他人有很大不同。

So I feel very confident in my guidance and that we'll hit in that range. Obviously, we had a good quarter from a volume and margin perspective, and we expect to do the same in the third quarter, excuse me.

因此，我對我的指導非常有信心，我們一定會達到這個範圍。顯然，從銷售和利潤率的角度來看，我們這個季度的業績表現良好，我們預計第三季也會有同樣的表現，對不起。

Okay. Great. And then actually one on the servicing in-house. The costs related to that, like the OpEx number this quarter already -- did that already include costs related to that? And should we see any change? Or does that already kind of incorporate what's happening there?

好的。偉大的。然後實際上是內部服務。與此相關的成本，例如本季的營運支出數字 - 是否已經包含與此相關的成本？我們是否應該看到任何變化？或者這已經包含了那裡發生的事情嗎？

No, you'll see some of those costs come out in some savings and some opportunity for us in '26. So we're -- I think a lot of the stuff that we are doing right now, there's actually some increasing costs in the servicing side tied to -- we moved it all to one subservicer. We modify -- we're in the process of building out technology tied to servicing.

不，你會看到，這些成本中的一些會在 26 年轉化為我們的一些儲蓄和機會。所以，我認為我們現在做的很多事情，實際上與服務方面的成本增加有關，我們把所有工作都轉移到了一個子服務商。我們正在修改——我們正在建立與服務相關的技術。

We're partnering with a lot of different things to make it all happen in a very short time frame. But you'll see some of the costs come out in a positive way in '26. We're going to get the servicing up internally by early '26, first quarter, and then you'll see the costs come out throughout the year and then obviously beyond.

我們正在與許多不同的機構合作，以便在很短的時間內實現這一切。但你會看到，26 年部分成本會以正面的方式反映出來。我們將在 26 年初，即第一季度，在內部完成服務，然後您將看到成本在全年甚至更長時間內顯現出來。

Okay. Great. Thanks.

好的。偉大的。謝謝。

Eric Hagen, BTIG.

BTIG 的 Eric Hagen。

Do you feel like the speed to close loans has room to fall further, while keeping your margin the same? Like what are the processes or catalysts that would support an even faster turn time from here?

您是否覺得在保持利潤率不變的情況下，貸款結算速度還有進一步下降的空間？例如，從現在起，哪些流程或催化劑可以支援更快的周轉時間？

Yeah. Thanks, Eric. I mean our speed to close loans, yes, with the AI investments and the things we've done, it will continue to get faster. There's laws that you can't actually close it quicker than like 8 days. So there's actually some laws in place that -- but we talk about how quickly you get the clear to close, purchase and refi. Obviously, refis are even faster and easier.

是的。謝謝，埃里克。我的意思是，我們的貸款結算速度會越來越快，是的，隨著人工智慧投資和我們所做的事情，它的速度會越來越快。法律規定你不能在 8 天內完成交易。因此，實際上存在一些法律——但我們討論的是您如何快速完成結算、購買和再融資。顯然，再融資更快速、更容易。

But the truth is what's going to happen is when rates do go down a little bit more and there are more refinancing in the market, everyone else's turn times are going to get longer, and they're going to slow down more, and we won't based on our AI investments, based on our team and our ability to scale. That's what I've been talking about for probably 3 or 4 quarters now that we're ready. And so that will not impact us. And what it will do is it creates a competitive advantage, which then gives us opportunity to get more business, more margin or both.

但事實是，當利率進一步下降，市場上出現更多再融資時，其他人的周轉時間都會變得更長，而且他們的速度會進一步放緩，而我們不會基於我們的人工智慧投資、基於我們的團隊和我們的擴展能力。現在我們已經準備好了，大概三、四個季度以來我一直在談論這個。所以這不會影響我們。它的作用是創造競爭優勢，從而給我們機會獲得更多的業務、更多的利潤，或兩者兼而有之。

Love it. Thank you. Has the playbook or the parameters around selling MSRs changed at all for you guys? Like do you think the market has the capacity to buy more than you're currently selling at these interest rates. And like how much capacity do you think would be available for MSRs if rates fall, like do you think the market can handle that?

愛它。謝謝。你們銷售 MSR 的策略或參數有改變嗎？例如，您是否認為市場有能力以這些利率購買比您目前出售的更多的商品？如果費率下降，您認為 MSR 的可用容量有多少，您認為市場可以承受嗎？

Yeah. The market is very robust in it. Honestly, we had new buyers coming in. We have people coming in and aggressively trying to buy our servicing. Once again, we're one of the few people that actually originate anything at scale. So if you want to get into the servicing game, you got to come to UWM because we originate a volume that makes sense.

是的。其市場非常活躍。說實話，我們有新買家進來。有人進來並積極嘗試購買我們的服務。再說一次，我們是少數幾個能夠真正大規模創造事物的人之一。因此，如果您想進入服務業，您必須來 UWM，因為我們提供的數量是合理的。

Also, a lot of people think that the way to refinance people is to buy servicing. And as I pointed out earlier, that's not how it really works anymore, but don't tell the servicing buyers. So it's fine for them to continue to buy loans and -- but there's a lot of people there.

此外，很多人認為再融資的方式就是購買服務。正如我之前指出的那樣，現在情況已經不再如此了，但不要告訴服務買家。因此，他們繼續購買貸款是可以的——但那裡有很多人。

And they also look at things -- there are some that aren't buying them to refinance. They're buying them to hedge other parts of their portfolio. So we've seen a good strong market. We're opportunistically selling, but at the same time, we can shut it down and not sell any. And we'll look at all those options, and we look at every single deal before we make the trade at all those. So we feel good about what we're doing on the MSR side.

他們也會觀察一些情況——有些人購買這些債券並不是為了再融資。他們購買這些資產是為了對沖投資組合的其他部分。因此，我們看到了一個良好強勁的市場。我們正在伺機銷售，但同時，我們也可以關閉它而不出售任何東西。我們會考慮所有這些選擇，並在進行交易之前仔細審查每一筆交易。因此，我們對在 MSR 方面所做的事情感到滿意。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Terry Ma, Barclays.

巴克萊銀行的馬特里 (Terry Ma)。

I just wanted to follow-up on expenses. Your noninterest expense growth has been quite elevated in the last six quarters, but it did moderate the last two. I'm just curious, like how should we think about the trajectory of that noninterest expense growth as we look out to the back half of the year, particularly as you start to build out in-house servicing?

我只是想跟進一下開支狀況。過去六個季度，您的非利息支出成長相當高，但最近兩個季度確實有所緩和。我只是好奇，當我們展望下半年時，我們應該如何看待非利息支出成長的軌跡，特別是當您開始建立內部服務時？

Yes. No, it's a good question, Terry. I look at the -- we look at the fixed expenses, that's really what we manage and monitor and understand. And a lot of them are investments, right? I look at them as investments into the scalability, into the AI, into the servicing. And so do I think those will moderate, as you already pointed out, yes, and they will continue to moderate going forward.

是的。不，這是個好問題，特里。我看了看——我們看了看固定開支，這才是我們真正管理、監控和理解的。其中很多都是投資，對嗎？我將它們視為對可擴展性、人工智慧和服務的投資。所以我認為這些將會緩和，正如你已經指出的那樣，是的，而且它們將繼續緩和下去。

Now the variable expenses, if we double our volume as an example, right, if that happens, obviously, the variable expenses will go up. But we're in a really good position from a ability to handle the volume, and then a lot more volume that we have today, along with the investments we've made from a perspective of broker business, along with servicing, along with technology tied to AI.

現在以變動費用為例，如果我們將交易量增加一倍，那麼，顯然變動費用就會增加。但從處理交易量的能力來看，我們處於非常有利的地位，而且我們今天的交易量要大得多，再加上我們在經紀業務、服務以及與人工智慧相關的技術方面所做的投資。

And so a lot of that stuff you see through there. But I do think that we're -- I won't say we're -- it will never go up again, but I feel pretty good that we're in a place that's not going to be going up significantly.

您可以透過那裡看到很多東西。但我確實認為——我不會說——它永遠不會再上漲，但我感覺我們處於一個不會大幅上漲的水平。

Got it. That's helpful. And then I guess maybe just on the 10b5, you've been -- that's been active since about mid-June. Any updated thoughts on how your kind of thinking about that and how much longer it will be kind of active? Like what's the end point?

知道了。這很有幫助。然後我想也許只是在 10b5 上，它從六月中旬就開始活躍了。您對此有何看法？它還能持續多久？有什麼最新想法嗎？例如，終點是什麼？

Yes. I mean the 10b5 is a plan out there that obviously you can't change once you start it. The stock price is way too low to be doing it, but I don't get to choose that anymore. But we feel fine about it because I know it's a long-term play. It's the right thing for the long-term build the float. All of you guys that are on the call tell me that we need more float.

是的。我的意思是 10b5 是一個計劃，一旦啟動就顯然無法更改。股價太低了，無法這樣做，但我不能再選擇這樣做了。但我們對此感覺良好，因為我知道這是一項長期計劃。這對於長期建造浮動艦隊來說是正確的做法。所有參加電話會議的人都告訴我，我們需要更多的浮動資金。

And so I'm selling at a massive discount to provide that for all of our investors. And my strategy and our strategy based on feedback from you guys is that -- the expectation is that the other 85% or 83% of what I own will be worth more because I'm getting more float on the market.

因此，我以大幅折扣出售，為所有投資者提供此優惠。我的策略以及我們根據大家的回饋制定的策略是——預計我所擁有的另外 85% 或 83% 的資產價值會更高，因為我在市場上獲得了更多的流通股。

Great. Thank you.

偉大的。謝謝。

Doug Harter, UBS.

瑞銀的道格·哈特。

Matt, you gave a little update on Mia, but hoping you could talk a little bit more about kind of broker reaction to it, consumer reaction to it? And any metrics on kind of around the success of that rollout.

馬特，你對米婭的情況做了一些更新，但希望你能多談談經紀人對此的反應，消費者對此的反應？以及有關此次推出的成功的任何指標。

Yes. Thanks a lot. It's been great. It's been -- we've not -- it's not been 100,000 calls a day because the market hasn't needed that yet, but it's ready. And she's been making a lot of calls. I actually played a couple in the sales huddle to all of our brokers, 10,000 people, almost 10,000 people watch that and let them hear Mia talking with borrowers calling inbound and she's answering and setting up an appointment for the broker, or she's making outbound calls, hey, it looks like your rates should be dropped -- could drop.

是的。多謝。非常棒。我們還沒有達到每天 10 萬通電話的規模，因為市場還不需要那麼多，但我們已經準備好了。她已經打了很多電話了。實際上，我在銷售會議上向我們所有的經紀人播放了幾個視頻，10,000 人，幾乎 10,000 人觀看了該視頻，讓他們聽到 Mia 與打入電話的借款人交談，她接聽並為經紀人安排約會，或者她正在撥打外撥電話，嘿，看起來你的利率應該下降 - 可能會下降。

Do you want to talk to Johnny Smith, your LO. And the person, yes, I love the schedule appointment. How about 5:00 tomorrow. And they literally schedule appointment and then the broker calls and the broker does a loan, I think it's really cool.

你想和你的 LO Johnny Smith 談談嗎？是的，我喜歡這個人的預約安排。明天 5:00 怎麼樣？他們確實安排了約會，然後經紀人打電話並發放貸款，我認為這真的很酷。

And now we're just doing it at scale, which we already are doing it at scale like thousands and thousands a day, but I think scale is 50,000, 100,000. And it doesn't go on scale until rates drop a little bit more to where it's going to drive more business. But I think that's -- it's close to happening right now where the 10-year is and where the market and mortgage-backed securities are trading right now, we're getting closer and closer.

現在我們正在大規模地進行這項工作，我們已經在大規模地開展這項工作，例如每天進行數千次，但我認為規模是 50,000、100,000。除非利率進一步下降，以至能夠推動更多業務，否則這種模式不會大規模推廣。但我認為——就目前 10 年期債券、市場和抵押貸款支持證券的交易情況而言，這種情況已經接近發生，我們正在越來越接近。

And so Mia will be making a lot of calls today and driving a lot of refinance activity, along with in general, just keeping the broker's name and information in front of the borrower for a referral-based system. And brokers are not good at that in general, and we are helping, and we are seeing brokers get more business and have more upside because of what we're doing.

因此，米婭今天會打很多電話，推動很多再融資活動，同時，總的來說，只是將經紀人的姓名和資訊放在藉款人面前，以便建立基於推薦的系統。而經紀人一般不擅長這一點，而我們正在提供幫助，而且我們看到，由於我們的工作，經紀人獲得了更多的業務，並擁有了更多的收益。

So Mia has been a great success. It's only going to continue. But it's not like in theory, hope you make some calls in 2027. It's like we're actually doing this today. I don't use AI as a buzzword like everybody else. We actually are doing stuff and it's actually working and we're getting more business, and we're more efficient because of the artificial intelligence that we've invested in and we built out here at UWM with our over 2,000 technology people.

所以米婭取得了巨大的成功。這種情況只會持續下去。但這並不像理論上那樣，希望你在 2027 年做出一些決定。就像我們今天實際上正在做這件事一樣。我並不像其他人一樣將人工智慧當作一個流行詞。我們確實在做一些事情，而且確實在發揮作用，我們的業務也得到了更多的發展，而且由於我們在威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校投資並由 2,000 多名技術人員開發的人工智慧，我們的效率也更高。

All right. Great. And then just -- I appreciate that, Matt. To shift, can you talk a little bit about the derivative gain in the quarter? Was that kind of opportunistic? Or is that kind of a change in kind of how you're using derivatives.

好的。偉大的。然後只是——我很感激，馬特。換個話題，您能談談本季的衍生性商品收益嗎？這是機會主義嗎？或者這是您使用衍生性商品方式的一種改變。

No, it's opportunistic, understand the market, understand the situations. And when the opportunity is there, we look at those things, right? As you saw, the 10-year dropped significantly over the last two weeks of the last quarter, which would had a -- it had a big hit on our MSR book, which is why we lost $111 million on our MSR book.

不，這是機會主義，了解市場，了解情況。當機會出現時，我們就會注意這些事情，對嗎？正如您所看到的，10 年期公債殖利率在上個季度的最後兩週大幅下跌，這對我們的 MSR 帳面造成了巨大打擊，這就是我們在 MSR 帳面損失 1.11 億美元的原因。

We put out a trade to hopefully manage some of that, and we took advantage of the opportunity. And that trade, we look at that. We have a lot of very analytical people here making those decisions, and we feel really good about that. And we'll look at that sometime, but it's all opportunistic.

我們進行了交易，希望能解決其中的一些問題，並且我們抓住了這個機會。我們會關注那筆交易。我們這裡有很多非常善於分析的人來做這些決定，我們對此感到非常滿意。我們有時會考慮這一點，但這都是機會主義的。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Jeff Adelson, Morgan Stanley.

摩根士丹利的傑夫·阿德爾森。

I wanted to follow-up on the guidance for originations. The $33 billion to $40 billion, if I look at the midpoint, it does seem to imply a bit of a decline versus this quarter and a year ago. And I think when we look at some of the industry forecasts, it does look like there's a bit more of a positive outlook and even with the weekly out data, it looks a little bit more positive. I was just wondering, maybe what you can -- what you're seeing that is causing you to maybe look for a little bit of a decline in the originations outlook versus prior periods?

我想跟進有關起源的指導。330 億美元到 400 億美元，如果我看中間點，它似乎確實意味著與本季和去年同期相比有所下降。我認為，當我們查看一些行業預測時，確實看起來有更積極的前景，即使從每週的數據來看，前景也更加積極。我只是想知道，也許您可以——您所看到的是什麼導致您可能認為與前期相比，起源前景略有下降？

Yeah. No, it was just understanding the market right now with where rates were and where rates are in June and July, it obviously impacts the purchase market a little bit. And so I feel confident in our guidance. Obviously, our margins are higher, and margin and volume is a combination to do things. Obviously, we feel good about the guidance I provided. We're obviously working to do as much volume and do margin and take care of brokers, help them grow.

是的。不，只是了解目前的市場利率以及六月和七月的利率，這顯然會對購買市場產生一些影響。因此我對我們的指導充滿信心。顯然，我們的利潤率更高，利潤率和銷售量是結合起來做的。顯然，我們對我提供的指導感到滿意。我們顯然正在努力擴大交易量、提供保證金並照顧經紀人，幫助他們成長。

So the market does dictate a little bit. So I want to give you a little bit of a range, $33 billion to $40 billion, and I feel good about that. But overall, we're the leader in the market. And so on the purchase side, I feel really confident in that. Now is there some tailwinds or headwinds based on how much refi happens? Yes. And so that's what we're trying to understand in the market. But we feel like it's going to be a great quarter across the board in the third quarter, and I think you'll love our results this quarter, just like you guys did this quarter.

因此市場確實扮演著一定的角色。所以我想給你一個大概的範圍，330 億美元到 400 億美元，我對此感到滿意。但整體而言，我們是市場領導者。因此，在購買方面，我對此非常有信心。現在，根據再融資的規模來看，是否存在一些順風或逆風？是的。這就是我們試圖了解的市場情況。但我們感覺第三季度將是一個全面偉大的季度，而且我認為你們會喜歡我們本季的業績，就像你們對這個季度的業績感到滿意一樣。

Okay. Great. And just a follow-up on the hedge. I mean, I know in the past, you talked a bit about really hedge the MSR book and it sounds now like you're being a little bit more opportunistic. Is this something you think you'll kind of continue to evaluate and do more of going forward? Or maybe just what's the strategy on the go forward here?

好的。偉大的。這只是對沖的後續行動。我的意思是，我知道在過去，您曾談論過真正對沖 MSR 帳簿，現在聽起來您有點機會主義了。您是否認為您會繼續評估並進一步進行這項工作？或者也許這裡的前進策略是什麼？

Yes. I mean it's -- we're opportunistic with everything we do here at UWM from selling MSRs, to derivative trade, to doing more loans, to margin, to volume, to helping brokers grow, like, we look at everything to win. And we have a lot of smart people here that analyze things. But it's not -- I don't look at it like oh, we're going to hedge the MSR sometimes. That's not how I look at it. It's not -- I don't even look at it like that [it's not even] MSRs in my mind.

是的。我的意思是——我們在 UWM 所做的一切都是機會主義的，從銷售 MSR，到衍生品交易，到提供更多貸款，到保證金，到交易量，到幫助經紀人成長，我們考慮一切以贏得勝利。我們這裡有很多聰明人來分析事物。但事實並非如此——我不認為我們有時會對沖 MSR。但我的看法並非如此。它不是——我什至不認為它是 MSR。

My mind is understand the market and understanding how we do things. But obviously, when you sell MSRs, you have -- that hedges your position. But once again, I don't need to do that either. So we look at all those things. We're opportunistic with everything we do, and things go in a positive direction sometimes as they have been over the last couple of quarters tied to those things. But we analyze it all and make the decisions on a day-by-day, week-by-week basis here with our strategy team.

我的想法是了解市場並了解我們如何做事。但顯然，當您出售 MSR 時，您就——這對您的頭寸進行了對沖。但再說一次，我也不需要這麼做。所以我們會關注所有這些事情。我們所做的每件事都是機會主義的，事情有時會朝著正面的方向發展，就像過去幾季的情況一樣。但我們會與我們的策略團隊一起逐日、逐週地分析這一切並做出決策。

Okay. Thanks.

好的。謝謝。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員指示）

Mikhail Goberman, Citizens JMP.

米哈伊爾·戈伯曼（Mikhail Goberman），公民 JMP。

Congrats on a great quarter. If I could just follow-up real quick on a question about margins. The new margin guidance. What would you say is the biggest driver or drivers of that decision to bump that range up 10 basis points?

恭喜本季取得優異成績。如果我可以快速跟進有關利潤的問題。新的保證金指導。您認為促使您決定將該範圍提高 10 個基點的最大驅動因素是什麼？

Yes. Thanks for the question. Yes, we feel -- I've been always aligned with what we say we're going to do on the margin side and volume side, as you guys have seen for whatever, 16, 18, 19, whatever quarters, how many quarters we've been public. And I give you guys a range that I know that we'll be in, and I feel confident that we'll be in based on the market.

是的。謝謝你的提問。是的，我們感覺——我一直與我們在利潤率和交易量方面要做的事情保持一致，正如你們所看到的，無論是 16、18、19 個季度，無論多少個季度，我們已經上市了。我給你們一個我知道我們會處於的範圍，我相信我們會根據市場情況處於這個範圍。

The market -- understanding every aspect of the market. So it's not just, oh, what's going on with volume, it's tied to market, tied to inventory in the housing market. It's tied to interest rates. It's tied to the tenure; it's tied to how bonds are trading. There's a lot of pieces to it to come up with that range for you.

市場－了解市場的方方面面。所以，這不僅是交易量的問題，它也與市場、與房地產市場的庫存有關。它與利率掛鉤。它與期限有關；與債券交易方式有關。有很多部分可以為您得出該範圍。

And for the first time in a long time or first time ever, I guess, we've decided to move it up to levels because I feel very confident that that's the new range that will be from a margin perspective in the wholesale channel. And so we control that, and that's what we feel it will be. And we feel confident that that's what the margins will be. And at the same time, going forward, we feel good that 100 to 125 is a nice number until I change the levels again.

我想，這是我們很長一段時間以來第一次，或者有史以來第一次，我們決定將其提升到更高的水平，因為我非常有信心，從批發管道的利潤角度來看，這將是一個新的範圍。因此我們控制了它，我們認為它將會是那樣。我們相信利潤率將會達到這個水準。同時，展望未來，我們感覺 100 到 125 是一個不錯的數字，直到我再次改變等級。

And that was the final question in our queue today. I'm happy to turn the floor back to management for any additional or closing remarks.

這是我們今天要問的最後一個問題。我很高興將發言權交還給管理層，以便他們發表任何補充或結束語。

Well, thank you for the time today. I appreciate the questions, and I look forward to talking to you guys again after another great quarter after the third quarter. Have a great day.

好吧，感謝您今天抽出時間。我很感謝你們的提問，我期待在第三季之後的另一個精彩季度之後再次與你們交談。祝你有美好的一天。

This does conclude today's teleconference, and we thank you all for your participation. You may now disconnect your lines.

今天的電話會議到此結束，感謝大家的參與。現在您可以斷開線路了。