UWM Holdings Corp (UWMC) 2025 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. My name is Aaron, and I'll be your conference operator for today. At this time, I'd like to welcome everyone to the UWM Holdings Corporation third quarter 2025 earnings conference call. (Operator Instructions)

早安.我叫亞倫，今天我將擔任你們的會議接線生。此時此刻，我謹代表 UWM Holdings Corporation 宣布 2025 年第三季財報，歡迎各位參加電話會議。（操作說明）

Blake Kolo, you may begin your conference. Thank you.

Blake Kolo，你可以開始你的會議了。謝謝。

Good morning. This is Blake Kolo, Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Relations. Thank you for joining us, and welcome to the third quarter 2025 UWM Holdings Corporation's earnings call. Before we start, I would like to remind everyone that this conference call includes forward-looking statements. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements, please refer to the earnings release that we issued this morning.

早安.這位是首席商務官兼投資者關係主管布萊克·科洛。感謝您參加本次會議，歡迎您來到 UWM Holdings Corporation 2025 年第三季財報電話會議。在會議開始前，我想提醒大家，本次電話會議包含前瞻性陳述。有關可能導致實際結果與前瞻性聲明存在重大差異的因素的更多信息，請參閱我們今天早上發布的盈利報告。

Our commentary today will also include non-GAAP financial measures. For information on our non-GAAP metrics and the reconciliation between the GAAP and non-GAAP metrics for the reported results, please refer to the earnings release issued earlier today as well as our filings with the SEC.

我們今天的評論還將包括非GAAP財務指標。有關我們的非GAAP指標以及已公佈業績的GAAP指標與非GAAP指標之間的調節情況的信息，請參閱今天早些時候發布的收益報告以及我們向美國證券交易委員會提交的文件。

I will now turn the call over to Mat Ishbia, Chairman, President and CEO of UWM Holdings Corporation and United Wholesale Mortgage.

現在我將把電話交給 UWM Holdings Corporation 和 United Wholesale Mortgage 的董事長、總裁兼執行長 Mat Ishbia。

Thanks, Blake, and thank you, everyone, for joining. Over the past three plus years, we've successfully navigated a higher rate environment with a focus on taking market share, showcasing that we are uniquely capable of both dominating purchase business and investing for the future. While most other lenders scaled back, we invested in our people, our technology and the broker channel, which are all operating at all-time high levels. We've been prepared for a rate reality for years. And the third quarter gave us a little bit of a glimpse of what it would look like, and we delivered on everything we said we would.

謝謝布萊克，也謝謝大家的參與。在過去的三年多時間裡，我們成功地應對了高利率環境，專注於獲取市場份額，展現了我們既能主導購買業務又能為未來投資的獨特能力。當大多數其他貸款機構縮減規模時，我們卻投資於我們的員工、技術和經紀管道，這些方面都達到了歷史最高水準。多年來，我們一直都在為利率現實做好準備。第三季讓我們對未來的發展方向有了一些了解，我們也兌現了所有承諾。

To give you a more tangible example, showcasing our capabilities, one day in September, we had an all-time record lock day. We locked $4.8 billion, yes, $4.8 billion of locks in one day. We handled it all in one day along with submissions that followed seamlessly. Now that was only a three, four, five day window of opportunity, and we took advantage of it by handling all the volume all the way through our organization from setup to submission to underwriting to closing to client service priorities and all went pretty close to flawless. We maintained turn times, SLAs, world-class Net Promoter Scores and our submission to critical close times actually got even faster from 12 days to 11 days, which are like record-breaking numbers.

為了給您一個更具體的例子，展示我們的能力，九月份的某一天，我們創下了有史以來最高的鎖定記錄。我們一天之內鎖定了價值 48 億美元的鎖，沒錯，是 48 億美元。我們一天之內就處理完了所有事情，後續的提交工作也進行得非常順利。那隻有三四五天的機會窗口，我們抓住了這個機會，從設置、提交、承保、結案到客戶服務優先事項，全程處理了我們組織的所有業務量，一切都進行得非常順利。我們維持了周轉時間、服務等級協定 (SLA)、世界一流的淨推薦值 (NPS)，而且從提交到關鍵成交的提交時間實際上從 12 天縮短到了 11 天，這簡直是破紀錄的數字。

It was phenomenal to see across the board the execution because we have been preparing for years when you actually have to do it and execute, you never know how it's going to go, and it went amazing. .The investments we have made in technology will continue to solidify our competitive advantage and the gap between UWM and our competitors continues to widen. Back in May at UWM LIVE!, we made headlines introducing Mia, our most intelligent agent, a generative AI loan officer assistant. A lot of people were unsure of what this meant and how it would impact business, but we now have actual results. Mia has made over 400,000 calls on behalf of our mortgage brokers, helping them stay in touch with past clients.

看到整個執行過程如此順利真是太棒了，因為我們為此準備了好幾年，但真正執行的時候，你永遠不知道結果會怎樣，而結果卻出乎意料的好。我們在技術方面的投資將繼續鞏固我們的競爭優勢，威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校與競爭對手之間的差距將繼續擴大。早在五月的 UWM LIVE! 大會上，我們推出了 Mia，我們最聰明的代理，一款生成式 AI 貸款專員助手，引起了廣泛關注。很多人不確定這意味著什麼以及會對業務產生什麼影響，但現在我們有了實際結果。Mia 代表我們的抵押貸款經紀人撥打了超過 40 萬通電話，幫助他們與過去的客戶保持聯繫。

Remember, as I told you before, 97% of all borrowers love their experience with the broker and want to work with them in the future and have a great experience, but only 10% remember who their brokers when they want to refinance again. Mia is built to solve that issue, and she's doing it. She made over 400,000 calls starting business conversations with borrowers on behalf of the brokers. These were mostly the rate watch calls. And of these, over 14,000 have already closed.

記住，正如我之前告訴你的，97% 的借款人對他們與經紀人的合作體驗非常滿意，並希望將來繼續與他們合作並獲得良好的體驗，但只有 10% 的人在再次需要再融資時還能記得他們的經紀人是誰。米婭天生就是為了解決這個問題而生的，而且她也正在這樣做。她代表經紀人撥打了超過 40 萬通電話，與借款人展開業務洽談。這些大多是利率觀察電話。其中超過 14,000 家已經關閉。

What's interesting is we forecasted a 10% to 15% answer rate, and we've actually seen over 40% answer rate. Mia has been phenomenal. We've been saying from the beginning, our business is tied to AI is based on 3 main issues: enhancing knowledge, which ChatUWM does along with a couple of other things we've done, create efficiency, which Bolt has done. And then the hardest one to solve is growth, which Mia is doing by solving the issue for brokers missing business from their past clients. So having over 14,000 closings from this in the last couple of months is even higher than we expected when we rolled it out, by a wide margin.

有趣的是，我們預測的回覆率為 10% 到 15%，而實際回覆率超過了 40%。米婭的表現非常出色。我們從一開始就說過，我們的業務與人工智慧息息相關，主要基於三個方面：增強知識（ChatUWM 以及我們所做的其他一些事情都做到了這一點）、提高效率（Bolt 已經做到了這一點）。而最難解決的問題是成長，Mia 正在透過解決經紀人因失去老客戶而造成的業務損失問題來解決這個問題。因此，在過去的幾個月裡，透過這種方式達成的成交量超過 14,000 筆，遠高於我們推出時的預期。

And that's why we are the biggest and best mortgage company in America. We have been for years, and now we are just accelerating and widening the gap. Separately, Mia also answered about 70,000 inbound calls. Once again, this is actual AI working in our business, not just talking in buzzwords like a lot of other people like to do. She's taking messages, making appointments, helping them succeed. I'd love to see how many of our clients are utilizing Mia and having success.

正因如此，我們才成為美國規模最大、最好的房貸公司。多年來我們一直如此，現在我們只是在加速並擴大差距。此外，米婭還接聽了約 7 萬通來電。再次強調，這是人工智慧在我們業務中的實際應用，而不是像許多人那樣只會空談流行語。她負責接聽電話、安排預約、幫助他們取得成功。我很想知道有多少客戶正在使用 Mia 並取得了成功。

Now let's talk about the third quarter performance. We closed $41.7 billion of production, obviously beating our guidance. It was our best quarter since 2021 back when rates were in the 2.5% to 3% range. We did $25.2 billion of purchase, which is on track, as we said, is consistently doing about $100 billion of purchase every year. We have been doing that consistently at UWM.

現在我們來談談第三季的業績。我們完成了價值 417 億美元的生產，顯然超過了我們的預期。這是自 2021 年以來我們業績最好的季度，當時的利率在 2.5% 到 3% 之間。我們完成了 252 億美元的採購，正如我們所說，這符合預期，我們每年都會穩定地完成約 1000 億美元的採購。我們在威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校一直堅持這樣做。

And then $16.5 billion of refi, which is up significantly. Like I said, we were able to take advantage of a very small window, a couple of week window in there where we were able to execute and close loans fast. And we're excited to be able to prove that we can not only -- we are prepared, but we also executed.

此外，還有 165 億美元的再融資，增幅顯著。正如我所說，我們抓住了一個非常短暫的窗口期，大概只有兩週的時間，我們得以快速執行並完成貸款。我們很高興能夠證明我們不僅做好了準備，而且還執行了。

Our gain margin was 130 basis points, which is slightly above the gain margin that we provided in guidance. And part of that is market moves in our direction. We were able to take advantage of that for that couple of week window. Because of this window, you can see when rates drop, our volume goes up quickly, our margin goes up quickly, and we can really take advantage of it. And it's just a three to four week window, like I said, not dissimilar to what we saw last September, but we're even more prepared and we were able to take advantage of it in a bigger way this time.

我們的收益率為 130 個基點，略高於我們先前給出的收益率預期。部分原因是市場走勢朝著我們預期的方向發展。我們得以利用那兩週的時間窗口。正因為有了這個窗口期，你才能看到利率下降的時候，我們的交易量會迅速上升，利潤率也會迅速上升，我們才能真正從中獲利。正如我所說，這只是三到四周的時間窗口，與我們去年九月看到的情況類似，但我們準備得更加充分，這次我們能夠更好地利用它。

Last year, we had a similar three to four week window, and the 10-year went to about 3.75, maybe 3.80, and we had a great month. We did about $17 billion, but we didn't have the success we had this time because we have Mia. This time, the rates didn't even get that low. The rates got to about 4 in the 10-year, and it's about the same short window. Mia has helped us grow the business exponentially, and we're clearly prepared to handle that volume and more.

去年，我們也有類似的3到4週的時間窗口，10年期公債殖利率達到了3.75左右，也許3.80，那一個月我們表現得非常好。我們之前賺了大約 170 億美元，但沒有像這次這樣成功，因為我們有了米婭。這一次，利率甚至沒有降到那麼低。10 年期利率達到 4 左右，時間窗口也差不多這麼短。Mia 幫助我們實現了業務的指數級成長，我們顯然已經準備好應對目前的業務量，甚至更大。

Now from an income perspective, we did over $12 million of income. That's inclusive of $160 million decline at fair values. But really the number to focus on is over $211 million of adjusted EBITDA. Once again, a dominant performance from UWM.

從收入角度來看，我們的收入超過了1200萬美元。這其中包括以公允價值計算的 1.6 億美元跌幅。但真正值得關注的數字是超過 2.11 億美元的調整後 EBITDA。UWM再次展現了統治級的表現。

You heard me say this on every call, year after year, our playbook and recipe remain consistent. We will continue to invest in our people, our technology and dominate this industry with our service and by growing the broker channel. Our operating profile and relentless drive to deliver results provides a consistent message for the investment community. UWM is uniquely positioned to win in any market environment, and we are investing every day to further extend our lead for the benefit of independent mortgage brokers and their consumers.

你一定聽我說過，年復一年，我們每次通話都會強調這一點，我們的策略和方法始終如一。我們將繼續投資於我們的員工、我們的技術，並透過我們的服務和發展經紀管道來主導這個產業。我們的營運模式和對績效的不懈追求，向投資界傳遞了一致的訊息。UWM 擁有得天獨厚的優勢，能夠在任何市場環境下取得成功。我們每天都在投資，以進一步擴大我們的領先優勢，從而造福獨立抵押貸款經紀人及其客戶。

I'll now turn the call over to our CFO, Rami Hasani.

現在我將把電話交給我們的財務長拉米·哈薩尼。

Thank you, Mat. Q3 was a strong quarter for us. We reported net income of $12.1 million and adjusted EBITDA of $211.1 million, up from both Q2 and Q1 of this year. Loan production volume of $41.7 billion, also up from Q2 and Q1 and gain margin of 130 basis points, again, up from Q2 and Q1. Operationally, our business continues to deliver. We also continue to maintain a healthy MSR portfolio with net servicing income of $135.1 million. As we've said before, to support our growth, we continue to invest in our people, processes and innovative technologies to prepare us and our broker partners for long-term growth.

謝謝你，馬特。第三季對我們來說是一個表現強勁的季度。我們公佈的淨收入為 1,210 萬美元，調整後 EBITDA 為 2.111 億美元，均高於今年第二季和第一季的水平。貸款發放量為 417 億美元，也高於第二季和第一季；收益率為 130 個基點，同樣高於第二季和第一季。營運方面，我們的業務持續保持良好勢頭。我們也繼續保持健康的抵押貸款服務權組合，淨服務收入達 1.351 億美元。正如我們之前所說，為了支持我們的發展，我們將繼續投資於我們的員工、流程和創新技術，使我們和我們的經紀合作夥伴為長期發展做好準備。

We remain on strategy with our investments, including our investments to bring servicing in-house to be prepared for significant market opportunities for us and our broker partners going forward. We previously said that our business is positioned to handle twice the volume without interruptions or adding significant staffing or fixed costs. In Q3, we demonstrated that as there were several periods throughout the quarter where production more than doubled and it was seamless. From a liquidity perspective, we recently completed a successful offering of $1 billion in unsecured notes. With the proceeds received, we plan to pay off $800 million unsecured notes maturing in mid-November, and we'll utilize the remainder to support our growth.

我們將繼續按策略進行投資，包括將服務業務納入內部營運的投資，以便為我們和我們的經紀合作夥伴迎接未來重要的市場機會做好準備。我們之前說過，我們的業務已經做好了應對兩倍業務量的準備，不會出現業務中斷，也不會大幅增加人員配備或固定成本。第三季度，我們證明了這一點，因為該季度有好幾個時期產量都翻了一番以上，而且整個過程非常順利。從流動性角度來看，我們最近成功完成了10億美元的無擔保債券發行。我們將利用所得款項償還 11 月中旬到期的 8 億美元無擔保票據，並將剩餘資金用於支持我們的發展。

We remain well capitalized with total equity of $1.5 billion and continue to be in a strong liquidity position with total available liquidity of $3 billion and $2.2 billion after paying off the bonds maturing in mid-November. While our liquidity and leverage ratios are slightly higher as of the end of Q3, it was the result of the timing of our bond issuance in September and our proactive liability management with the use of proceeds prior to mid-November maturity. Net of available cash, our leverage ratio as of the end of Q3 remained largely consistent with the prior quarter. Going forward, we expect to continue to maintain our capital, liquidity and leverage ratios within what we believe to be acceptable ranges in the current market conditions.

我們資本充足，總股本達 15 億美元，流動性狀況依然強勁，可用流動資金總額達 30 億美元，在償還 11 月中旬到期的債券後，剩餘流動資金為 22 億美元。雖然截至第三季末，我們的流動性和槓桿率略有上升，但這主要是由於我們在 9 月份發行債券的時機以及我們在 11 月中旬到期前積極利用所得款項進行負債管理所致。扣除可用現金後，截至第三季末，我們的槓桿率與上一季基本保持一致。展望未來，我們預計將繼續把資本、流動性和槓桿率維持在我們認為在當前市場條件下可以接受的範圍內。

In summary, Q3 was a great quarter with strong production and even stronger gain margin performance, levels we haven't seen in a while. We continue to invest in our people and technologies to be the most prepared mortgage company in the country. We're also prepared from a capital and liquidity perspective and believe that we are well positioned for Q4, 2026 and beyond.

總而言之，第三季表現出色，生產強勁，利潤率表現更加強勁，達到了我們一段時間以來從未見過的水平。我們將繼續投資員工和技術，力爭成為全國準備最充分的抵押貸款公司。從資本和流動性角度來看，我們也做好了準備，相信我們已經為 2026 年第四季及以後的發展做好了充分準備。

I will now turn things back over to our Chairman, President and CEO, Mat Ishbia, for closing remarks.

現在我將把發言權交還給我們的董事長、總裁兼執行長馬特·伊什比亞，請他作總結發言。

Thanks, Rami. I'll close with a few points before our Q&A. Our work to bring servicing in-house is on track for the first quarter of 2026. This will have a positive financial impact on our business, and we're excited to bring our world-class approach to the servicing world. This will no doubt strengthen the consumer loyalty to their brokers. It was great to share more details on our partnership with Bilt will deliver best service experience in the history of mortgage, plus a tremendous amount of exclusive benefits for our brokers, including 400,000 to 500,000 leads Bilt renters that convert to purchase every single year exclusively to our mortgage brokers.

謝謝你，拉米。在問答環節之前，我最後再補充幾點。我們將服務業務內部化的工作進展順利，預計 2026 年第一季完成。這將對我們的業務產生積極的財務影響，我們很高興能將我們世界一流的服務理念帶入服務領域。這無疑會增強消費者對經紀人的忠誠度。很高興能與大家分享我們與 Bilt 合作的更多細節，這將帶來抵押貸款史上最佳的服務體驗，以及為我們的經紀人帶來大量專屬福利，包括每年 40 萬至 50 萬條 Bilt 租房者轉化為購房者的潛在客戶線索，這些線索將專門提供給我們的抵押貸款經紀人。

We're also excited about the mortgage matchup center sponsorship out in Phoenix. We've seen a significant spike in both traffic and success through the mortgagematchup.com website since launching this. So very excited about all those things. Now I don't normally do this because I know you guys are going to ask me a bunch of questions. But before I move to guidance, I'll ask you a question. When rates drop, what mortgage company do you believe is most prepared to handle it with AI, with operational capacity, not with buzzwords, but with actual technology, process and preparation that's already been proven.

我們也對在鳳凰城贊助抵押貸款匹配中心感到興奮。自從推出 mortgagematchup.com 網站以來，我們看到該網站的流量和成功率都出現了顯著增長。我對所有這些都感到非常興奮。我通常不會這樣做，因為我知道你們一定會問我很多問題。但在我給指導之前，我想先問你一個問題。當利率下降時，您認為哪家抵押貸款公司最有能力利用人工智慧和營運能力來應對，而不是依靠空洞的口號，而是依靠已經過驗證的實際技術、流程和準備？

The 10-year dipped to 4%, and you saw what we did. I've been saying this for years, when the 10-year dips to 3.75%, we're going to double our business. No other lender can do that. Even if they could, were they going to go from $4 billion to $8 billion? Like we're going to go from $30 billion to $40 billion a quarter to $60 billion to $80 billion in a quarter, right, with margin expansion.

10 年期公債殖利率跌至 4%，你們也看到了我們採取的措施。我多年來一直這麼說，當 10 年期公債殖利率跌至 3.75% 時，我們的業務規模將會翻倍。其他貸款機構都做不到這一點。即使他們能夠做到，他們真的能從 40 億美元增加到 80 億美元嗎？例如，隨著利潤率的提高，我們的季度營收將從 300 億至 400 億美元成長到 600 億至 800 億美元。

That's how UWM works. I hope you feel good about what lies ahead for UWM because I do. All right. Now turning to guidance. I expect the fourth quarter production to be between $43 billion and $50 billion of production. And we're going to raise our levels on the gain margin to 105% to 130%, moving it up one level. And honestly, if we get another dip like we just saw, those numbers could be even higher.

這就是威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校的運作方式。我希望你對威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校的未來充滿信心，因為我的確如此。好的。現在進入指導環節。我預計第四季產量將在 430 億美元至 500 億美元之間。我們將把收益率水準提高到 105% 到 130%，提升一個等級。說實話，如果我們再次經歷像剛才那樣的下跌，這些數字可能會更高。

But overall, excited about what UWM is doing. We're going to continue to dominate. Thank you for your time today. Let's flip it over to the Q&A.

但總的來說，我對威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校正在做的事情感到興奮。我們將繼續保持優勢。感謝您今天抽出時間。接下來進入問答環節。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作說明）

Terry Ma, Barclays.

Terry Ma，巴克萊銀行。

I just wanted to follow up on the effort to bring servicing in-house and specifically with the Bilt partnership. Maybe just talk about what you're seeking to accomplish with that partnership, how widespread the adoption could be? And then like ultimately, like who's going to fund the rewards issued from the Bilt card?

我只是想跟進一下將售後服務納入公司內部運作的努力，特別是與 Bilt 的合作。或許可以談談你希望透過這種合作關係實現什麼目標，以及這種合作模式的普及程度如何？那麼最終，誰來為Bilt卡發放的獎勵提供資金呢？

Yeah. Thanks for the question. So it's got nothing to do with the Bilt card. So it's every mortgage payment that goes through UWM we are letting them be the front-end servicing app, if you think of it that way, the technology on the front end. The real benefit for us at UWM is, one, we're going to be better than every other servicer out there because we're better than everyone at everything we do and servicing is a joke in our industry. And so we're going to make it really great for the client.

是的。謝謝你的提問。所以這跟Bilt卡沒有任何關係。所以，每一筆透過 UWM 進行的抵押貸款支付，我們都讓他們成為前端服務應用程序，如果你這樣理解的話，就是前端技術。對我們 UWM 來說，真正的好處是，第一，我們將比其他所有服務商都更出色，因為我們在所有方面都比其他人做得更好，而服務在我們這個行業簡直是個笑話。所以我們要盡力為客戶做到最好。

So when people call, we're going to actually answer the phone, not 43-minute waiting periods like everybody else does. So we'll be great on servicing from a service perspective for the consumers, so consumers will love it, and then they'll get rewards for making their mortgage payment, which is something that's never been done before. And then obviously, the front-end technology to your point about built will be fantastic. On top of that, as I mentioned, built has 5 million people making their rental payments to they're about 10% go and buy houses every year. Right now, they just leave Bilt and go buy house.

所以當人們打電話來時，我們會立即接聽，而不是像其他人一樣讓大家等待 43 分鐘。因此，我們將從服務角度為消費者提供優質服務，消費者會喜歡這項服務，並且他們還會因按時償還抵押貸款而獲得獎勵，這是以前從未做過的事情。很顯然，你提到的前端技術將會非常出色。此外，正如我所提到的，有 500 萬人支付租金，而每年只有大約 10% 的人去買房子。現在，他們直接離開比爾特去買房子。

Now they're going to have a way to make a mortgage payment through Bilt by working with a mortgage broker. So those turn into great leads and opportunities exclusive to our mortgage brokers. And so it's a win-win-win. Bilt is a great company. They do good things, but UWM and our servicing process is going to be the best-in-class. That's how we do things. And so we're excited about that.

現在他們可以透過與抵押貸款經紀人合作，利用 Bilt 平台支付抵押貸款。因此，這些都變成了我們抵押貸款經紀人獨有的優質潛在客戶和機會。所以這是三贏的局面。Bilt是一家很棒的公司。他們做了很多好事，但威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校和我們的服務流程將會是同類最佳。我們就是這麼做的。所以，我們對此感到很興奮。

Got it. Just to follow up on the rewards piece. Like will that show up on expenses anywhere on your P&L?

知道了。關於獎勵部分，我補充一下。這筆費用會出現在損益表的任何費用項下嗎？

P&L? No. That's a silly question, but no, it's not funded by UWM. There's no expense for it at all. This is all upside.

損益表？不。這是一個很愚蠢的問題，但答案是：不，它不是由威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校資助的。完全不需要任何費用。這全是好事。

Okay. Great. And then maybe just a follow-up on me. I appreciate the stats. I think you mentioned 14,000 loans off 400,000 outbound calls. Like any room for improvement as we kind of go forward and you continue to kind of use it?

好的。偉大的。然後或許會有人跟我進行後續報道。我很感謝這些統計數據。我想你提到過，透過 40 萬次外呼，發放了 1.4 萬筆貸款。就像隨著我們不斷前進和您繼續使用它，還有什麼改進的空間嗎？

Everything we do has room for improvement. So yes, Mia has been fantastic. It's been better than we expected. The answer rates are higher. The response has been better. But every day that goes by, she gets better. And every day that goes by, our brokers get more and more comfortable, consumers get more and more comfortable with the AI agents reaching out and it's not a human. Like every day, it's getting better and better, and it's only going to be more and more loans.

我們所做的每一件事都有改進的空間。是的，米婭表現非常出色。比我們預期的要好。回復率更高。反響有所好轉。但她每天都在好轉。隨著時間推移，我們的經紀人越來越適應，消費者也越來越適應由人工智慧代理而非真人聯繫客戶。情況每天都在好轉，貸款也會越來越多。

And so 14,000 was a really big number, surprisingly big number for us, but that's also the market we had that little couple of week blip where the market got really good, and we took advantage of that. But no, Mia has been fantastic. And we spend all of our time and investments internally on AI and investments around AI. Once again, it's not a buzzword for us, it's actually producing business. And so Mia has been great. And so I appreciate that question because she's been better than we expected.

所以 14,000 是一個非常大的數字，對我們來說是一個出乎意料的大數字，但那也是我們經歷了幾週市場波動，市場變得非常好的時候，我們抓住了這個機會。但是，米婭的表現非常出色。我們把所有的時間和投資都投入在人工智慧以及與人工智慧相關的投資中。再次強調，這對我們來說不是一句空話，而是實實在在的業務成長點。所以米婭一直都很棒。所以我很感謝你提出這個問題，因為她的表現比我們預期的還要好。

Eric Hagen, BTIG.

Eric Hagen，BTIG。

Good quarter. On the guidance for the gain on sale margin, is that a function of lower rates? Or is there another variable or condition in the market, which is supporting that? And how do you feel like the margin compares on refis versus purchased loans at this point?

本季表現不錯。關於銷售利潤率的指引，這是否與較低的利率有關？或者說，市場中是否存在其他變數或條件支撐著這種情況？您覺得目前再融資貸款和購買貸款的利潤率相比如何？

Yeah. So the margin on purchase and refis are -- there's no difference. It's not a different thing. The opportunity is if rates drop a little bit as rates get lower, more volume comes in the market. And anyone that's a good mortgage loan officer or knows how to do business knows that rates are not what drives business because if that was the case, then there will be no retail business because everyone in retail charges 400 basis point gain on sale, takes advantage of consumers, does the wrong thing.

是的。所以購買和再融資的利潤率——沒有差別。這沒什麼不同。機會在於，如果利率略微下降，隨著利率走低，市場交易量會增加。任何一個優秀的抵押貸款專員或懂得如何做生意的人都知道，利率並不是推動業務發展的因素，因為如果利率是推動業務發展的因素，那麼零售業就不會存在，因為零售業的每個人都會在銷售時收取 400 個基點的利潤，佔消費者的便宜，做錯事。

If rates really matter, then there would be no retail channel. Since there is 70% of the market goes through retail, rates are not the biggest thing. So margin being up 105%, 130% in that range, that just -- for years, we were at the low end. I always told you different levels, 75 to 100 was the lower. And I keep -- I've kept moving it up strategically and timely, and I control that. Nobody else does.

如果利率真的那麼重要，那麼零售通路就不會存在了。由於 70% 的市場份額是透過零售管道獲得的，因此利率並不是最重要的因素。所以利潤率提高了 105%、130%，而多年來，我們的利潤率一直處於較低水準。我一直跟你說過不同的級別，75到100是較低的級別。而且我一直——我一直有策略、有時機地推進它，而且我掌控著它。其他人都不這麼做。

And so that's what's happening, and that's what it will be in that range again this month. And like I said, on the volume and margin guidance is accurate as it was last. But if I get a two week blip, we are unable to take advantage of it and margins go up and volume goes up and we crush it, just like we did this quarter, although I don't know if you guys recognize it, but it was a dominant quarter.

所以，這就是目前的情況，而且這個月價格還會在這個範圍內波動。正如我之前所說，銷售量和利潤率的指引與上次一樣準確。但如果我遇到兩週的波動，我們就無法利用它，利潤率上升，銷量上升，我們就能取得巨大成功，就像我們這個季度一樣，雖然我不知道你們是否意識到，但這確實是一個佔據主導地位的季度。

Yeah, we recognize it was good stuff. Good color from you as always. I mean the origination numbers look really strong, but what was the driver of the conventional purchase loans being down a little bit quarter-over-quarter? And how much upside do you think there is to the purchase numbers if rates fall? I think you mentioned 3.75% on the 10-year. I mean if that's the level, what is the upside to the purchase segment?

是的，我們承認那是好東西。你的色彩一如既往地好看。我的意思是，貸款發放量看起來非常強勁，但是是什麼原因導致傳統購屋貸款較上季略有下降？如果利率下降，您認為購屋數量會有多大的上漲空間？我想你有提到10年期公債殖利率是3.75%。我的意思是，如果這就是目前的水平，那麼購買細分市場的成長空間在哪裡？

The purchase business is -- the best part about our business, and you understand it pretty well, Eric, is that we're consistently dominant on the purchase. We do $25 billion a quarter, maybe $22 billion, maybe $27 billion. But basically, we're $95 billion to $105 billion of purchase every year. Rates go down to 4%, let's just play that out, just use an example, crazy not to 10-year, just the real rates. Yes, purchases will go up maybe 20% to 30%.

採購業務－我們業務中最棒的部分，埃里克，你也很清楚，就是我們在採購方面一直佔據主導地位。我們每季營收可能是 250 億美元，也可能是 220 億美元，或 270 億美元。但基本上，我們每年的採購額在 950 億美元到 1,050 億美元之間。利率降至 4%，讓我們來模擬一下，舉個例子，這很瘋狂，不是 10 年期，而是實際利率。是的，銷量可能會成長20%到30%。

It's not like a crazy difference. The real difference is the refi. Purchases are steady, consistent always. And that's why nobody else has that. That's why everyone else is sitting here waiting and they've been dying for the last 4 years, and we've been consistent with purchase.

這差別不算太大。真正的差別在於再融資。採購量穩定、始終如一。這就是為什麼其他人沒有那種東西的原因。這就是為什麼其他人都在這裡等待，並且在過去4年裡一直焦急等待的原因，而我們一直堅持購買。

So the real upside is in the refi business that will go up like we saw it can double or triple in a week or a day. And so the purchase business, especially in fourth quarter, first quarter, purchase business, as you know, is that's not the purchase season. Purchase season is second and third quarter in really the summer because that's when people are moving and all that stuff. And so it will be steady. It will be consistent.

所以真正的上漲空間在於再融資業務，正如我們所看到的，它可能在一周甚至一天內翻倍或兩番。因此，採購業務，尤其是在第四季度和第一季度，正如你所知，那並不是採購旺季。購買旺季實際上是夏季的第二和第三季度，因為那時人們都在搬家等等。所以它會保持穩定。它將保持一致。

Yes, there's plus 25%, maybe plus 30%, maybe plus 40% volume on purchase with lower rates because maybe some more people sell their houses and you can get all that stuff, affordability gets better, but people got to go out and buy houses still. So I'm not that focused on -- we will dominate the purchase market no matter what happens and then the refi is where the upside comes in.

是的，由於更多人可能賣掉房子，購屋量可能會增加 25%、30% 甚至 40%，利率也會降低，這樣一來，購屋能力就會提高，但人們仍然需要出門買房。所以我並不太關注——無論發生什麼，我們都將主導購屋市場，而再融資才是獲利的地方。

Bose George, KBW.

博斯·喬治，KBW。

Can you talk about the volume and margin trends that you've seen so far in October, is that kind of at the midpoint of the guidance range?

能否談談10月至今的銷售量和利潤率趨勢？目前的情況是否處於預期範圍的中點？

Yeah. I guided for -- to where I did for a reason. October was a great month and the volume and margins are aligned. Now November is a 19 business day month. And if you take out the Wednesday and Friday after Thanksgiving and before it's really a 17 business day month.

是的。我之所以做嚮導，是因為我做了某件事。十月份業績非常好，銷量和利潤率都很理想。11月有19個工作天。如果去掉感恩節前後的星期三和星期五，那麼一個月其實只有 17 個工作天。

So it's a really short month. So this quarter is actually a short quarter tied to the end of the year stuff. But I've just guided that no matter what, I'm going to have the best quarter we've had in four years. Maybe you guys will recognize that and realize that we're dominating out here. But either way, $43 billion to $50 billion is very good. It's never been done in four years at UWM. The margins are guided to those same places that I just did. And so we will not miss guidance just as I never have, I think, as long as I've been doing this.

所以這個月真的很短。所以這個季度其實比較短，跟年底的事情有關。但我已明確表示，無論如何，我們都要取得四年來最好的季度業績。或許你們會意識到這一點，並明白我們在這裡佔據絕對優勢。但無論如何，430億至500億美元都是非常不錯的數字。在威斯康辛大學密爾瓦基分校的四年裡，從未發生過這樣的事。邊緣被引導到我剛才所引導的相同位置。因此，我們不會錯過任何指導，就像我從事這項工作以來從未錯過任何指導一樣。

Okay. Great. And then actually, on the servicing side, you noted that you'll be bringing it in-house early '26. Does that happen? And is it staggered? Does it come in over time? Or -- how is that going to work?

好的。偉大的。而且實際上，在售後服務方面，您提到您將在 2026 年初將其收歸公司內部。這種情況會發生嗎？它是錯開的嗎？它會隨著時間而到來嗎？或者──這要怎麼運作呢？

Yeah. All new loans that close in 2026 will be -- will stay here, so we won't subservice those out to your point, to your question. And then the loans that are currently subserviced out at Cenlar over the year, we'll transition them here. So by the end of 2026, there won't be loans anywhere else outside of default loans and different things that we make decisions on. But for the most part, everything will be here internally, whether I move a big chunk of them in March or April, another chunk in September, October, but all new originations are coming in 2026. And by the end of 2026, 100% of the servicing book will be internal, like I said, outside of the loans that I've chosen to not come in town or come in-house.

是的。2026 年所有新發放的貸款都將——將留在這裡，所以我們不會再提供分包服務。至於你提到的問題，我們不會再提供分包服務。然後，目前由 Cenlar 提供分包服務的貸款，我們將在一年內轉移到這裡。因此，到 2026 年底，除了違約貸款和我們做出的其他決定之外，其他地方將不會再有貸款。但大部分資金都將保留在內部，無論我是在三月或四月轉移一大批資金，還是在九月或十月轉移另一批資金，所有新的資金都將在 2026 年到位。到 2026 年底，正如我所說，除我選擇不親自到公司處理或內部處理的貸款外，所有貸款服務業務都將 100% 由內部人員負責。

Doug Harter, UBS.

道格·哈特，瑞銀集團。

Mat, as we think about your ability to ramp up volumes, how -- you've talked about the scale of the business. How should we think about like what are the incremental costs that -- for funding that new volume and just how to think about the operating leverage that's in the business?

Mat，當我們考慮你提高產量的能力時，你談到了業務規模。我們應該如何考慮為實現新增產量所需的增量成本，以及如何考慮企業營運中的槓桿作用？

Yeah. The operating leverage in the business is substantial right now. So there's -- the cost -- you guys look at cost all the time. A lot of them are investments. You look at how do we invest in technology, how do I continue to invest in everything that we do, the broker channel, all the different pieces to it. But where we're at right now, I don't need to add costs to do -- double my business. I've said that before. And so therefore, you can kind of think of the cost. Like obviously, when you do more volume, there's more commissions that get paid out and there's things like that, but that's a variable cost.

是的。目前公司的經營槓桿作用相當大。所以，成本問題──你們總是會考慮成本。其中很多都是投資項目。你要考慮的是我們如何投資技術，如何繼續投資我們所做的一切，經紀管道，以及它的所有不同組成部分。但就目前的情況而言，我不需要增加成本就能讓我的業務翻倍。我以前說過這話。所以，你可以大致考慮一下成本。很顯然，當你的業務量更大時，支付的佣金也會更多，諸如此類，但這屬於可變成本。

From a fixed perspective, I feel really good about where we are right now. And I'd expect over the next year that to stay the same or stay in that range, plus or minus 10% and probably be on the lower end of the minus 10% is how I think about it based on just the AI initiatives and things that we've done. But at the same time, if there's an opportunity to make an investment to build the business and dominate, we will do that without question, without thought. And so the investments we make will continue. But the expenses like if you're looking like fixed costs, like how much more, we don't need anything to do the volumes I just told you guys. We don't need anything.

從客觀角度來看，我對我們目前的處境感到非常滿意。我預計在接下來的一年裡，這個數字會保持不變或保持在正負 10% 的範圍內，而且可能會接近負 10% 的下限，這是我根據人工智慧計劃和我們所做的工作得出的結論。但同時，如果有機會進行投資以發展業務並佔據主導地位，我們會毫不猶豫、毫不猶豫地去做。因此，我們的投資將會持續。但是，如果你考慮的是固定成本之類的開支，例如還需要多少，我們不需要任何東西就能達到我剛才告訴你們的產量。我們什麼都不需要。

And then speaking of investment, can you just remind us on the bringing the servicing in-house? I guess, have those investments already started? So like are those costs kind of already in your cost base? And just how to think about kind of the cost side as servicing comes in-house?

說到投資，您能否提醒我們將售後服務業務收歸公司內部的計畫？我猜想，這些投資已經開始了吧？所以這些成本是不是已經包含在你們的成本結構裡了？那麼，當維修服務轉為內部營運時，成本方面該如何考慮呢？

Yeah. Those costs -- so I'm getting double hit on it, right, because I'm paying subservicers and I'm also building out a servicing portfolio and servicing people, hiring people to build out the way I want to do it. I told you guys really I'd say between $40 million and $100 million. I think I guess said $60 million to $100 million, probably closer to the high end of these ranges I'm giving you, let's call it $40 million to $100 million to bring servicing in-house, and those numbers are accurate. You won't see that all the way through the income until 2027, right?

是的。這些成本——所以我要承擔雙重負擔，對吧，因為我既要支付給二級服務商，又要建立服務組合，還要服務人員，僱傭人員來按照我想要的方式進行建設。我之前就跟你們說過，我估計會在 4,000 萬美元到 1 億美元之間。我想大概是 6000 萬美元到 1 億美元，可能更接近我給出的這些範圍的上限，我們姑且稱之為 4000 萬美元到 1 億美元，用於將服務業務內部化，這些數字是準確的。直到 2027 年，你都看不到這筆收入，對吧？

Because this year is the worst because I'm double dipping, I'm hiring people, building it out, and I'm still subservicing. Next year is a combo of it. In 2027, I'll have all the savings baked into our business, along with the leads, along with the growth, along with the success, along with better retention and all the things that come from it. So yes, so you're correct. There's -- those costs are already in there.

因為今年情況最糟，因為我身兼兩職，既要招人，又要擴建，還要繼續做分包服務。明年將是兩者的結合。到 2027 年，我將把所有節省下來的成本都融入到我們的業務中，同時還將獲得潛在客戶、業務成長、業務成功、更高的客戶留存率以及由此帶來的一切。是的，你說得對。這些費用都已經包含在裡面了。

And same thing with the technology investments right now, building out some of those things from the AI perspective to make servicing, like I said, the best in the country. I'm not trying to be like all these other guys.

目前在技術投資方面也是如此，從人工智慧的角度建立一些東西，就像我說的，使服務成為全國最好的。我不想和其他人一樣。

Jeff Adelson, Morgan Stanley.

傑夫·阿德爾森，摩根士丹利。

Mat, just maybe a quick reminder of the hedging. I think this quarter, the hedge gain against the MSR loss was a little bit smaller than we saw last quarter. Just maybe give us a quick update on the hedging strategy. I know you've been a little bit more opportunistic there.

馬特，或許可以簡單提醒你對沖的問題。我認為本季對沖MSR損失的收益比上季略小。請您簡單介紹一下對沖策略的最新進展。我知道你在那邊有點投機。

Yeah. No, I appreciate it. We don't hedge our MSRs as you're hopefully aware of. I do look at opportunities and look at interest rates and make decisions. Sometimes we do more of it, sometimes we do less of it.

是的。不，我很感激。如您所知，我們不會對MSR進行對沖。我會關注投資機會和利率，並做出決定。有時我們會多做一些，有時我們會少做一些。

This quarter, we focused less on it because we focused on just the dominating the business. Obviously, the 10-year goes up and down, MBS rates go up and down and how it finishes, depending on how it started, it ties to an MSR loss. Anyone, and I know it's you guys because I love all of you guys, but anyone that (inaudible) focuses on MSRs and the fair value just doesn't understand mortgages, doesn't understand this business. It's got 0 to do with what I'm doing, the operating of the business. The 10-year can literally be at 3.75% for this whole quarter.

本季度，我們減少了對這方面的關注，因為我們專注於在業務上佔據主導地位。顯然，10 年期公債殖利率有漲有跌，抵押貸款支持證券 (MBS) 利率也有漲有跌，最終的收益率取決於其初始收益率，這與抵押貸款服務權 (MSR) 的損失有關。我知道這說的就是你們，因為我愛你們所有人，但是任何（聽不清楚）只關注抵押貸款服務權和公允價值的人，根本不了解抵押貸款，不了解這個行業。這跟我經營公司的工作沒有任何關係。整個季度，10年期公債殖利率可能真的會維持在3.75%。

Let's say if it drops to 3.75% today, I'm go to crush it, just crush it across the board. I'll call you next quarter. I'll say, $60 billion, $70 billion, 135 basis points of margin, we'll crush it. But on December 31, the 10-year goes back up to 4.40%, just to use some crazy number, and I'll have an MSR write-up of another $400 million also. That has zero to do with my business. And the inverse is accurate, too. So the MSR value stuff means nothing. I don't focus on it.

假設今天殖利率降到 3.75%，我就要全力以赴，徹底擊垮它。我下個季度會打電話給你。我估計，600億美元，700億美元，利潤率135個基點，我們肯定能大獲全勝。但到了 12 月 31 日，10 年期公債殖利率將回升至 4.40%（舉例），屆時我還會收到一份關於 MSR 的 4 億美元的報告。這跟我生意一點關係都沒有。反過來也同樣適用。所以MSR值之類的東西毫無意義。我不會把注意力放在這上面。

I don't care about it. I'm not going to care about it because it's like why would I focus on since I have zero control over, zero. you can hedge it, Mat, we'll hedge it. That -- once again, MSR value, I'd be putting costs out there to hedge something that I have zero control over. I don't care about the MSR values. If you guys write about the MSR values, you don't understand my business. It just doesn't matter. It matters zero.

我不在乎。我不會在意這件事，因為我根本無法控制它，我為什麼要注意它？你可以對沖風險，馬特，我們對沖的。那——再一次，MSR 價值，我投入成本去對沖我完全無法控制的事情。我不在乎MSR值。如果你們只專注在MSR值，那你們就不了解我的業務。這根本無關緊要。這毫無意義。

So just like, by the way, and you can go back and listen to the record I told you the same stuff when my -- I got an MSR write-up of $500 million. I'm like, don't give me credit for that. I didn't do anything for that. That means zero. Watch my core business watch what I do with my production, my gain on sale, my expenses and how we dominate in there. And our adjusted EBITDA of $200-plus million, like that's how you run a business. That's all we focus on. I don't focus on other stuff. I know other people like to talk about it because they just don't understand our business.

順便一提，你可以回去聽聽我之前跟你說過的話，當時我的 MSR 報告顯示價值 5 億美元。我心想，別把這功勞歸於我。我沒為此做任何事。那就是零。專注於我的核心業務，專注於我的生產、銷售收益、支出以及我們如何在該領域佔據主導地位。我們調整後的 EBITDA 超過 2 億美元，這才叫經營企業啊。我們只關注這一點。我不會把注意力放在其他事情上。我知道其他人喜歡談論這件事，因為他們根本不了解我們的行業。

And then just in terms of Mia, it was good to hear the color on the success so far there. Just as I sort of think about that 14,000 transactions closed, do you think about that as mostly refi at this point? And some really rough math, if I sort of think about an average loan size here would suggest there was somewhere in the ballpark of maybe like 10% of your originations this quarter. And if most of it was refi, that would be quite a bit of refi as well. So is that right? Or how should we be thinking about those numbers and the path from here?

至於 Mia，很高興聽到她目前的成功情況。我剛才還在想那14,000筆完成的交易，你覺得目前來看，這些交易大部分都是再融資嗎？粗略計算一下，如果我大致考慮一下平均貸款規模，那麼本季你們的貸款發放量中，可能有 10% 左右是貸款問題。如果其中大部分是再融資，那麼再融資的金額也會相當大。是這樣嗎？或者，我們應該如何看待這些數字以及未來的發展方向？

Yeah. And to be clear, and maybe I should have done a better job of stating it, the 14,000 probably includes loans that have closed in the beginning of October because I think I pulled the data like two weeks ago. So it's probably a little runoff. So it's not all 14,000 in the first quarter -- in the second quarter -- excuse me, third quarter. And also was probably a little bit in the second quarter.

是的。需要說明的是，也許我應該更好地說明這一點，這 14,000 筆貸款可能包括 10 月初完成的貸款，因為我記得我大概兩週前才提取了這些數據。所以這可能是少量徑流。所以，並不是第一季就達到了 14,000 人——而是在第二季——抱歉，是第三季。而且可能在第二季也有一點。

So it's not like pure, but we really saw a massive pickup in that September little blip that we just talked about. So a lot of that stuff closed in September and a little bit rolled in October. With that being said, I would assume that it's all refinanced. 95% is refi. Yes, there are some that Mia called and they're like, oh, I'm looking to buy a house or I want a second home. But the focus on the 400,000-plus calls were rate watch calls, which basically means, hey, you might be in the market for a refinance.

所以它並不完全是純粹的，但我們確實看到了九月份那次小小的波動之後出現了大幅回升，就像我們剛才談到的那樣。所以很多這類專案在9月就結束了，一部分專案延續到了10月。也就是說，我估計全部都是再融資的。 95%都是再融資的。是的，米婭給一些人打電話，他們說，哦，我想買房子，或者我想買第二套房子。但超過 40 萬通電話的重點是利率觀察電話，這基本上意味著，嘿，你可能正在考慮再融資。

You should be in the market for refinance. I've got good news, you're LO at this company. And so maybe at some point, we'll play the call. If you call our Investor Relations team, they'll let you hear a call, like the real live calls and people like, yes, I have Johnny call me, and then that turns into an import, which turns into a loan, which turns into a closing. And so I would say 95% refi in the data I just gave you on the 14,000, but I won't try to put it in the third quarter number because it's not all in the third quarter. I would say a good amount of it was in the third quarter, but some of it trickled into the fourth quarter, and we'll have more in the fourth quarter. We already have some since I pulled that data.

你應該考慮重新貸款了。我有個好消息，你是我們公司的LO（聯絡官）。所以也許在某個時候，我們會進行這通通話。如果你打電話給我們的投資者關係團隊，他們會讓你聽到一個電話錄音，就像真實的電話錄音一樣，人們會說：“是的，我讓約翰尼給我打電話”，然後這變成了一筆進口交易，進口交易變成了一筆貸款，貸款變成了一筆交易。因此，根據我剛才給你的 14,000 美元的數據，我認為有 95% 的資金用於再融資，但我不會把它算作第三季度的數據，因為它並不全部都發生在第三季。我認為其中很大一部分是在第三季度實現的，但有些延續到了第四季度，而且第四季度還會有更多。自從我提取了這些數據之後，我們已經有一些了。

So a pretty good number though, but appreciate the color, Mat --

所以數量還不錯，不過我更欣賞這色彩，馬特。--

(Operator Instructions)

（操作說明）

Mikhail Goberman, Citizens.

米哈伊爾·戈伯曼，公民。

Just a quick question about -- a big picture question about technology and how it's affecting the industry, especially with respect to refi, there's been a lot of talk about the sort of traditional 75 basis points incentive for refis really contracting to much lower level going forward, maybe even as low as 25, 30. Could you talk about that and how technology and specifically AI is affecting that?

我有一個關於科技及其對產業影響的大局問題，特別是關於再融資方面的問題。目前有許多關於再融資傳統75個基點激勵措施未來大幅縮減的討論，甚至可能低至25、30個基點。您能否談談這方面，以及科技，特別是人工智慧，是如何影響這方面的？

Yeah. Just to clarify your question, so I understand so I can give you the right answer. You're saying that people are more likely to refinance because it's easier these days. They used to think you have to save more money. Now they're willing to do it quicker. Is that what you're asking?

是的。為了更清楚地了解您的問題，以便我能給您正確的答案，請您幫忙確認一下。你的意思是說，現在貸款再融資更容易了，所以人們更傾向於進行再融資。他們過去認為你應該存更多錢。現在他們願意加快速度。你問的是這個嗎？

Correct. Yes. Given that sort of the human element has always been the choke point in the refi experience and technology just collapsing that into a faster process.

正確的。是的。鑑於人為因素一直是再融資過程中的瓶頸，而科技只是將其簡化為一個更快的過程。

Yeah. I mean I see that. And I guess your point is will there be -- since there's less cost, less friction and it's easier to refinance because of -- will there be more refinances. And I guess I would say, yes, I see the opportunities there. But you're also assuming that all lenders are actually good at it. You're also assuming that other lenders actually have technology. The friction is still a pain in the butt for -- I mean, I think I said 11 days sub the CTC, and I've refis even faster than that. The industry average are still 40 days. There's still a lot of friction.

是的。我的意思是，我看到了。我想你的意思是，由於成本更低、摩擦更少，而且更容易進行再融資，是否會有更多的再融資？我想我會說，是的，我看到了那裡的機會。但你也假設所有貸款機構都擅長貸款。你也假設其他貸款機構也擁有相應的技術。摩擦仍然很煩人——我的意思是，我想我說在 CTC 下待了 11 天，我甚至更快地完成了再融資。行業平均仍是 40 天。仍然存在著許多摩擦。

People are still literally -- you get a mortgage with some of these retail lenders or some of these other lenders, you're literally going and printing out your 12 months bank statement, going and get your pay stubs, calling your tax people and getting your tax returns and setting them up, like it's a complete joke still. So don't get confused that just because we're dominating and doing these things and that a couple of other companies are focused on AI. A lot of AI is buzzwords and bulls*** right now. The truth is we're closing like why don't you check their data, see who is actually pulling the friction out.

現在人們仍然像個笑話一樣——你從一些零售貸款機構或其他貸款機構獲得抵押貸款時，你真的需要打印出你 12 個月的銀行對賬單，去拿你的工資單，打電話給稅務部門獲取你的納稅申報表並進行設置。所以不要誤以為我們佔據主導地位並做這些事情，而其他幾家公司也專注於人工智慧。目前很多人工智慧相關的詞彙都是空洞的噱頭和胡扯。事實是，我們最後想問的是，為什麼不去查他們的數據，看看究竟是誰在製造摩擦。

But you are correct. When you make it faster, easier and cheaper, people are willing to do it because like I was not a pain in the butt to refinance. I'll take $92 of savings. I don't need to wait for $200 of savings. In the old days, it was like, let me wait until $200 because it's not worth my time.

但你是對的。當你讓貸款再融資變得更快、更容易、更便宜時，人們就願意去做，因為像我這樣的人再融資過程並不麻煩。我願意省92美元。我不需要等到存夠200美元。以前，人們會想，等到200美元再說吧，因為這不值得我花時間。

I don't want to go get my pay stubs and go to Kinko's and fax, make copies and all that nonsense. But there are still lenders and the majority of lenders are still doing it the old way. So I wouldn't say there's a massive change. You'll see ours go faster from the opportunity because we'll be able to help people, but it's still -- it's not going to be a massive change in the markets yet.

我不想去拿薪資單，然後去影印店傳真，做那些亂七八糟的事情。但貸款機構仍然存在，而且大多數貸款機構仍然沿用舊方法。所以我覺得並沒有發生巨大的改變。你會看到我們的產品會因為能夠幫助人們而更快地發展，但這仍然——目前還不會對市場產生巨大的影響。

In the future, it will be, I think you're actually on to something. But you're still -- the technology that I speak of and we talk about in AI is, I say light years, but we'll call it three to five years ahead of all these other people. And so yes, there'll be more refinances. But with our servicing bringing it in-house, with our faster, easier process with mortgage brokers being cheaper and lower cost, it's going to be more refis. And that's why we're -- we dominated in September, and we dominated in October, and we'll dominate this fourth quarter.

將來一定會是這樣，我覺得你說的很有道理。但是，我所說的、我們在人工智慧領域討論的技術，我說是光年級的，但我們姑且稱之為領先其他人三到五年。所以，是的，還會有更多的再融資。但隨著我們將服務業務納入公司內部，以及我們更快、更方便的流程，加上抵押貸款經紀人更便宜、成本更低，再融資將會更多。這就是為什麼我們在9月份佔據主導地位，10月份也佔據主導地位，而且我們將在第四季度繼續佔據主導地位。

We continue with the volume on refis. And then we don't have to own the servicing book. And a lot of people like to say they own servicing book to get the refis, that isn't the game anymore, although people are spending billions and billions of dollars buying servicing books, that helps and they give you a little bit of a leg up, a little inside track, but that is not driving it. As you saw, I think I said last quarter that we own 2% of the servicing book or 3% of the book, and we did 11% or 12% of the refis in the market. So obviously, that's not the game anymore.

我們繼續關注refis的交易量。這樣我們就不用擁有維修保養手冊了。很多人喜歡說他們擁有維修手冊來獲得再融資，但這已經不是現在的勝利之道了。雖然人們花費數十億美元購買維修手冊，這確實有所幫助，可以讓你獲得一些優勢，一些內部信息，但這並不能決定成敗。正如你所看到的，我想我上個季度說過，我們擁有 2% 的服務業務或 3% 的業務，並且我們完成了市場上 11% 或 12% 的再融資業務。很顯然，遊戲規則已經改變了。

So taking the friction out is the game. Technology is the game, and that's why you see me making investments every single day to be prepared to dominate just like we did in the third quarter, and I will get in the fourth quarter and then in 2026.

所以，消除摩擦才是關鍵。科技是勝利之道，所以你會看到我每天都在進行投資，為的是像我們在第三季度那樣佔據主導地位做好準備，我也會在第四季度以及 2026 年繼續保持這種勢頭。

Ladies and gentlemen, that will conclude our Q&A portion for today. I would like to turn the call back over to Mat Ishbia for any closing comments.

女士們、先生們，今天的問答環節到此結束。我想把電話轉回給馬特·伊什比亞，讓他做最後的總結發言。

Yeah. Thanks for the time today, guys. Appreciate you guys. Have a good day.

是的。謝謝各位今天抽出時間。感謝大家。祝你有美好的一天。

Thank you. And ladies and gentlemen, that will conclude today's conference. Thanks for attending. We'll see you next time.

謝謝。女士們、先生們，今天的會議到此結束。謝謝各位的出席。我們下次再見。