UWM Holdings Corp (UWMC) 2023 Q3 法說會逐字稿

Good morning. My name is Rob, and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I'd like to welcome everyone to the UWM Holdings Corporation Third Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) Blake Kolo, you may begin your conference.

早安.我叫羅布，今天我將擔任你們的會議操作員。現在，我歡迎大家參加 UWM Holdings Corporation 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。 （操作員指示）Blake Kolo，您可以開始會議了。

Good morning. This is Blake Kolo, Chief Business Officer and Head of Investor Relations. Thank you for joining us, and welcome to the Third Quarter 2023 UWM Holdings Corporation's Earnings Call. Before we start, I would like to remind everyone that this conference call includes forward-looking statements. For more information about factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from forward-looking statements, please refer to the earnings release that we issued this morning.

早安.我是首席商務官兼投資者關係主管 Blake Kolo。感謝您加入我們，歡迎參加 UWM Holdings Corporation 2023 年第三季財報電話會議。在開始之前，我想提醒大家，本次電話會議包含前瞻性陳述。有關可能導致實際結果與前瞻性陳述產生重大差異的因素的更多信息，請參閱我們今天上午發布的收益報告。

I will now turn the call over to Mat Ishbia, Chairman and CEO of UWM Holdings Corporation and United Wholesale Mortgage.

我現在將把電話轉給 UWM Holdings Corporation 和 United Wholesale Mortgage 董事長兼執行長 Mat Ishbia。

Thanks, Blake. Appreciate it, and thank you to everyone for joining the call. We had another great quarter, and I'm incredibly proud of our results and excited for the opportunity ahead. I know that every loan we do today means that much more opportunity for us when rates go back down in the next 6, 12, 18 months, and we're doing a lot of loans right now. So things are going great.

謝謝，布萊克。對此表示讚賞，並感謝大家加入通話。我們又度過了一個偉大的季度，我對我們的業績感到無比自豪，並對未來的機會感到興奮。我知道，我們今天發放的每筆貸款都意味著，當利率在未來 6、12、18 個月內回落時，我們將獲得更多機會，而且我們現在正在發放大量貸款。所以事情進展順利。

You're now seeing the reality of what I've been saying for years. When rates rise, both UWM and brokers shine, while others struggle. Despite about a 25-year high in mortgage rates and lower housing inventory, we continue to thrive in all aspects of the business, including having one of our best purchase quarters of all time.

你現在看到了我多年來所說的話的現實。當利率上升時，UWM 和經紀商都表現出色，而其他經紀商則舉步維艱。儘管抵押貸款利率處於約 25 年來的高點且房屋庫存較低，但我們業務的各個方面仍在蓬勃發展，包括擁有有史以來最好的購買季度之一。

It's no secret why UWM and the broker community continue to do so well in the purchase market. Purchase transactions require an expert. They require more attention to detail. They require a higher level of service for real estate agents, consumers and brokerage, everybody. And they require an efficient process where speed matters for getting contract deadlines. Together, UWM and independent mortgage brokers match these needs perfectly. We have world-class NPS scores, which was actually a plus 86 for this quarter. We have fantastic turn times that are the fastest in the industry.

UWM 和經紀人社群在購買市場上繼續表現出色的原因已不是什麼秘密。購買交易需要專家。他們需要更多地關注細節。他們要求為房地產經紀人、消費者和經紀公司等所有人提供更高水準的服務。他們需要一個高效的流程，其中速度對於獲得合約期限至關重要。 UWM 和獨立抵押貸款經紀人完美地滿足了這些需求。我們擁有世界一流的 NPS 分數，本季實際上為+86。我們擁有業內最快的周轉時間。

We provide brokers with tools and technology to ensure all transaction details are handled with a speed and efficiency and amazing client service. We love purchase because it's hard for others to compete at our level. And the business is less cyclical, providing UWM with stable and consistent volume and earnings as you continue to see.

我們為經紀商提供工具和技術，以確保所有交易細節都能快速且有效率地處理，並提供出色的客戶服務。我們喜歡購買，因為其他人很難在我們的水平上競爭。而且該業務的周期性較小，為 UWM 提供了穩定且一致的銷售和收益，正如您繼續看到的那樣。

And when refis turn, we will be ready because we are investing heavily right now to ensure our brokers will win bigger than ever in the next refi cycle. The combination of our purchase business and scale and quality of our servicing book is so strong that our business can thrive in virtually all markets. We embrace these cycles each time they happen and we come out stronger, and no other lender can say that.

當再融資轉向時，我們將做好準備，因為我們現在正在大力投資，以確保我們的經紀人在下一個再融資週期中贏得比以往任何時候都更大的收益。我們的採購業務與服務手冊的規模和品質相結合是如此強大，以至於我們的業務幾乎可以在所有市場中蓬勃發展。每當這些週期發生時，我們都會擁抱它們，並且我們會變得更加強大，這是其他貸款機構無法比擬的。

I've always said we'd rather be the best lender than the biggest, but we've, in fact, been both, all of last year and this year for the total numbers but really the last 5 consecutive quarters and, of course, for the last 9-plus years or 9 years or so in wholesale.

我總是說，我們寧願成為最好的貸款人，而不是最大的貸款人，但事實上，去年和今年的總數字，我們都是最好的貸款人，但實際上是過去連續5 個季度，當然， ，過去 9 年多或批發 9 年左右。

Turning to our results for the quarter. We delivered $29.7 billion in overall production, well within our guidance. Of that, almost $26 billion was purchase volume. As I talked earlier, we dominate in the purchase market. We were doing more purchase volume in the past few quarters than any other lender did volume, period.

轉向我們本季的業績。我們的總產值為 297 億美元，完全在我們的指導範圍內。其中，採購額接近 260 億美元。正如我之前所說，我們在採購市場上佔據主導地位。在過去的幾個季度中，我們的購買量比任何其他貸方的購買量都多。

Our gain margin was 97 basis points at the higher end of our range, and we generated $301 million of net income, which is inclusive of $92.9 million markup of our MSR portfolio. But as you know, I always like to point out regardless of the direction of MSR mark, we are operationally profitable, which almost no mortgage company in the country can say. This is the true barometer of our success. And actually, in fact, I think we made more money this quarter than many of our competitors that are refi-focused have made all year or even 5 or 6 quarters' worth. That's how strong our business is right now.

我們的利潤率為 97 個基點，處於我們範圍的高端，我們產生了 3.01 億美元的淨利潤，其中包括我們 MSR 投資組合的 9,290 萬美元的加價。但正如你所知，我總是想指出，無論MSR標誌的方向如何，我們在營運上都是盈利的，而國內幾乎沒有抵押貸款公司可以說這一點。這是我們成功的真正晴雨表。事實上，我認為我們本季賺的錢比許多專注於再融資的競爭對手全年甚至五、六個季度的收入還要多。這就是我們目前業務的強大程度。

I hope it is now clear more than ever that we are winning. I also hope people realize that we have seen multiple mortgage companies look great in low-rate environments who went out of business in the last 2 years or are struggling significantly. And that will continue to happen. You hear how other companies are doing great once rates drop. But remember, UWM is excellent regardless of interest rate. And that is why we are the obvious choice in the best-in-class mortgage originator in America, and we thank all of our investors that have noticed that and continue to see that.

我希望現在比以往任何時候都更清楚我們正在獲勝。我還希望人們認識到，我們已經看到多家抵押貸款公司在低利率環境下表現出色，但在過去兩年中倒閉或陷入困境。這種情況還將繼續發生。您會聽到其他公司在利率下降後表現出色。但請記住，無論利率如何，UWM 都是優秀的。這就是為什麼我們成為美國一流抵押貸款發起人的明顯選擇，我們感謝所有註意到這一點並繼續看到這一點的投資者。

The opportunity ahead will be massive. It might take 6 months, 12 months or 18 months to get there, but I believe it's on the earlier end of that scale when the market turns. UWM will be the most prepared mortgage company, whether it's a big refi boom, a mini refi boom, we will make the most opportunity.

未來的機會將是巨大的。可能需要 6 個月、12 個月或 18 個月才能達到這一目標，但我相信當市場轉向時，它處於該階段的較早階段。 UWM將是準備最充分的抵押貸款公司，無論是大型的再融資熱潮，還是小型的再融資熱潮，我們都會創造最多的機會。

I'm going to now turn it over to our CFO, Andrew, for a few more details.

我現在將把它交給我們的財務長安德魯，以了解更多細節。

Thanks, Mat. Against the market backdrop of continued increases in interest rates, particularly towards the end of the quarter, we delivered strong financial results in Q3 and favorable sequential and year-over-year comparisons. This strong operational performance is a result of a consistently high volume of purchase originations, gain margin on the high end of our guidance range and our continued emphasis on prudent cost management.

謝謝，馬特。在利率持續上漲的市場背景下，特別是在本季末，我們在第三季取得了強勁的財務業績，並且與去年同期相比也取得了良好的業績。這種強勁的營運績效是持續大量採購、在我們指導範圍高端獲得利潤以及我們持續強調審慎成本管理的結果。

Year-to-date, we've generated net income of $391.2 million, and our core operational income before considering changes in the fair value of MSRs increased sequentially and as compared to 2022 in Q3 and year-to-date. We are focused on growth as we continue to make investments in the wholesale channel and in preparing for the next interest rate cycle by hiring additional team members and rolling out new product and technology solutions.

今年迄今為止，我們的淨利潤為 3.912 億美元，在考慮 MSR 公允價值變化之前，我們的核心營運收入與 2022 年第三季和年初至今相比連續成長。我們專注於成長，繼續對批發管道進行投資，並透過僱用更多團隊成員和推出新產品和技術解決方案為下一個利率週期做準備。

Nevertheless, our core operational expenses, excluding servicing, interest and other nonoperational expenses, are down approximately 4% year-to-date. Our balance sheet, including our capital, available liquidity and leverage, remains strong and very consistent for the past 2 quarters. To date, we have generated just under $1.7 billion in net proceeds from sales of MSRs. We have continued to opportunistically sell MSRs as market conditions warrant to fund our operational capital liquidity needs.

儘管如此，我們的核心營運支出（不包括服務、利息和其他非營運支出）今年迄今下降了約 4%。我們的資產負債表，包括我們的資本、可用流動性和槓桿比率，在過去兩個季度仍然強勁且非常穩定。迄今為止，我們已從 MSR 銷售中獲得了近 17 億美元的淨收益。當市場條件允許滿足我們的營運資本流動性需求時，我們繼續機會主義地出售 MSR。

Despite these sales, we have maintained a sizable and high-quality servicing portfolio as originations of MSRs have largely kept pace with sales and payoffs. Our MSR portfolio consisted of loans with a total UPB of just over $280 billion as of the end of the quarter, which continues to deliver significant recurring quarterly cash flows. Liquidity and access to liquidity, including cash, self-warehouse and accessible borrowing capacity under our secured and unsecured lines of credit approximated $2.9 billion as of the end of the quarter, which is largely consistent with the past 2 quarters and a significant increase from the end of last year. We continue to believe that our current financial strength positions us well for any market cycle.

儘管有這些銷售，我們仍保持著規模龐大且高品質的服務組合，因為 MSR 的推出基本上與銷售和回報保持同步。截至本季末，我們的 MSR 投資組合包括 UPB 總額略高於 2800 億美元的貸款，這將繼續帶來大量經常性季度現金流。截至本季末，我們的有擔保和無擔保信貸額度下的流動性和流動性獲取能力，包括現金、自庫和可利用的借貸能力約為29 億美元，這與過去兩個季度基本一致，並且較上季大幅增加。去年年底。我們仍然相信，我們目前的財務實力使我們能夠應對任何市場週期。

I will now turn things back over to our Chairman and CEO, Mat Ishbia, for closing remarks.

現在，我將把事情交回給我們的董事長兼執行長馬特‧伊什比亞 (Mat Ishbia)，他將致閉幕詞。

Thanks, Andrew. Appreciate it. I'll be brief so we can get to the Q&A. I may sound like a broken record here, but I know the marketing challenge for most businesses in the mortgage industry. But come the panic, missing sometimes. Would love to see you guys out here and see how things work at our headquarters. Our culture is vibrant. We are hiring. We are growing. We're investing in technology. In the 37 years we've been in business, we've never laid off a team member. And in fact, in the third quarter, we hired over 1,000 team members. We're going to hire more again in the fourth quarter.

謝謝，安德魯。欣賞它。我會簡短發言，以便我們進行問答。我在這裡聽起來可能像是一個破紀錄的人，但我知道抵押貸款行業大多數企業面臨的行銷挑戰。但有時會出現恐慌和失蹤。很高興見到你們，看看我們總部的運作情況。我們的文化充滿活力。我們正在招募。我們正在成長。我們正在投資技術。在我們從業 37 年來，我們從未解僱過任何團隊成員。事實上，在第三季度，我們僱用了 1,000 多名團隊成員。我們將在第四季再次招募更多員工。

We are growing the broker channel. By year-end, we'll host over 25,000 loan officers on our campus for training and development. Brokers are not slowing down, and I think the market numbers are starting to show that. UWM is very strong and will continue to be. We are dominating both purchase and the overall market by growing share with huge origination numbers, world-class service and technology that exceeds our clients' needs.

我們正在發展經紀人管道。到年底，我們將在校園內接待超過 25,000 名信貸員進行培訓和發展。經紀商並沒有放慢腳步，我認為市場數據已經開始顯示這一點。 UWM 非常強大，並將繼續如此。我們憑藉龐大的原產地數量、世界一流的服務和超越客戶需求的技術，不斷擴大市場份額，從而在採購和整個市場上佔據主導地位。

And we remain committed as ever to our shareholders. And this will be our 12th consecutive quarter that we announced a $0.10 quarterly dividend. We are consistent in rewarding our shareholders and those who continue to believe in us, and we appreciate them. We plan to close the year out strong. And for the fourth quarter, we expect production to be between $19 billion and $26 billion and our margins range of 75 to 100 basis points.

我們仍然一如既往地致力於我們的股東。這將是我們連續第 12 個季度宣布派發 0.10 美元的季度股息。我們始終如一地回報我們的股東和那些繼續信任我們的人，我們感謝他們。我們計劃以強勁的表現結束這一年。對於第四季度，我們預計產量將在 190 億美元至 260 億美元之間，利潤率將在 75 至 100 個基點之間。

I'm going to turn it over to the operator now for a Q&A.

我現在要把它交給接線員進行問答。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Your first question comes from the line of Kyle Joseph from Jefferies.

你的第一個問題來自傑富瑞 (Jefferies) 的凱爾約瑟夫 (Kyle Joseph)。

I just want to get your thoughts. Obviously, margins were very strong in the quarter. It's, obviously, a good thing despite what rates did, but volumes -- or sorry, guidance looks like you expect kind of normalized trends in the fourth quarter. Any sort of onetime items to call out there? Or anything you'd highlight there?

我只是想了解你的想法。顯然，本季的利潤率非常強勁。顯然，不管利率如何，這都是一件好事，但數量——或者抱歉，指導看起來像你預計第四季度會出現某種正常化的趨勢。那裡有什麼一次性物品可以呼叫嗎？或者您有什麼要強調的嗎？

Yes. No, thanks for the question. It was a great quarter. No, there's nothing -- there's no onetime items, nothing specific besides as we talk about, we're making our brokers competitive. We set the margins on a daily basis. And obviously, it seems like it's going well. And I continue to guide in the same range, 75 to 100, and that's what the margins on wholesale will be in the toughest markets. And we're, obviously, on the higher end of that margin for this quarter.

是的。不，謝謝你的提問。這是一個很棒的季度。不，沒有什麼——沒有一次性的項目，沒有什麼具體的，除了我們所說的，我們正在讓我們的經紀人具有競爭力。我們每天設定利潤。顯然，一切似乎進展順利。我繼續指導在相同的範圍內，75 到 100，這就是在最艱難的市場中批發的利潤率。顯然，我們本季的利潤率處於較高水準。

Got it. And then on the MSR portfolio, I know you guys are opportunistically selling there. But as you think about the size of that portfolio, is this $280 billion number kind of the ballpark we should expect to be in going forward?

知道了。然後在 MSR 投資組合上，我知道你們正在機會主義地在那裡出售。但考慮到該投資組合的規模，2,800 億美元是我們未來應該預期的數字嗎？

Opportunistic. We make the decision on a monthly basis. We also done -- discuss what's best for the business. But yes, we feel good about it. We've been basically in that, I call it, $300 billion range for years now, and so between $250 billion and $350 billion seems like a right number. Does it go down to $230 billion at some point? Does it go up to $370 billion at some point? Probably, it will at one point. But right now, we feel pretty steady that it's going to be more of the same as what you've seen.

機會主義的。我們每月做出決定。我們也討論了什麼對業務最有利。但是，是的，我們對此感覺良好。多年來我們基本上一直處於我稱之為 3000 億美元的範圍內，因此 2500 億美元到 3500 億美元之間似乎是一個正確的數字。它會在某個時候下降到 2300 億美元嗎？它會在某個時候達到 3700 億美元嗎？也許，在某一時刻它會發生。但現在，我們非常確信它會與您所看到的更加相同。

Got it. And then one last one for me, Mat. Just on the NAR ruling and all the noise we've seen in the realtor space for the last few weeks, just kind of want to pick your brain and see how you're thinking about any sort of implications for the industry and opportunities or risk for UWMC specifically?

知道了。然後是我的最後一件事，馬特。就 NAR 的裁決以及過去幾週我們在房地產經紀人領域看到的所有噪音而言，我只是想動動腦子，看看您如何看待對行業以及機會或風險的任何影響專門針對 UWMC 嗎？

Well, obviously, there's a lot of talk about it, but also there's a lot of work to be done before anything actually ever changes if something ever does change. So we stay close to it. We're in the weeds of the business. We understand all of the implications. And what I always would tell you is with any change, and I'm not suggesting this change will happen or should happen, by the way. But with any change in the industry, the people that are most in tune, win.

嗯，顯然，有很多關於它的討論，但如果事情確實發生了變化，在任何事情真正改變之前還有很多工作要做。所以我們保持接近它。我們正處於業務的雜草之中。我們理解所有的影響。我總是會告訴你的是任何變化，順便說一句，我並不是說這種變化將會發生或應該發生。但隨著行業的任何變化，最合拍的人就會獲勝。

UWM has won in other changes in the past, whether it's [trade] changes, whether it's guideline changes like we usually win in those things. When there's a little bit of fluctuation, a little bit of uncertainty, that's when the best lenders in the country win. UWM has done that for years. And so I'm not suggesting this change will happen or any change will happen. But if something does happen, I'm really confident that our ability to take advantage of it in a positive way, help our brokers win, help realtors win and help consumers win at the same time.

UWM 過去在其他變革中取得了勝利，無論是[貿易]變革，還是像我們通常在這些方面獲勝的指導方針變革。當有一點波動、一點不確定性時，就是該國最好的貸方獲勝的時候。 UWM 多年來一直這樣做。因此，我並不是說會發生這種變化或發生任何變化。但如果真的發生了什麼事，我真的有信心我們有能力以積極的方式利用它，幫助我們的經紀人獲勝，幫助房地產經紀人獲勝，同時幫助消費者獲勝。

Your next question comes from the line of Bose George from KBW.

您的下一個問題來自 KBW 的 Bose George。

Actually I wanted to ask about the jumbo growth. I mean, it looks like that continues to go pretty well. And do you think that will continue to grow as a percentage of the total volume? And are banks sort of being a little less competitive there?

其實我想問一下關於巨大成長的問題。我的意思是，看起來一切都很順利。您認為這佔總銷售量的百分比會持續成長嗎？那裡的銀行競爭力是否稍差一些？

Yes. Thanks for the question. No, I don't really see it being a big change from what you see. I mean, it goes up and goes down. I don't think -- are banks competitive on jumbo more than other loans? Yes. So as they back out of the market or a little bit or they struggle a little bit or focus on other things, will there may be opportunity? Yes, but that's not a driver of our success or volume. It's really a -- it's around the year at best. So jumbos are good opportunity. Brokers win. Brokers are the best option for consumers on all loans. And that will continue to grow and continue to succeed, whether it's jumbo, whether it's $81,000 loans, whatever it may be, brokers are trying to do those loans and take great care of consumers.

是的。謝謝你的提問。不，我真的不認為這與你所看到的有什麼大的變化。我的意思是，它會上升和下降。我不認為銀行在巨額貸款方面比其他貸款更有競爭力嗎？是的。因此，當他們退出市場或稍微掙扎一下或專注於其他事情時，可能會有機會嗎？是的，但這並不是我們成功或銷售的驅動因素。這確實是——最好的情況是一年左右。所以巨無霸是一個很好的機會。經紀人贏了。經紀人是消費者所有貸款的最佳選擇。這種貸款將繼續成長並繼續取得成功，無論是巨額貸款，還是 81,000 美元的貸款，無論是什麼，經紀人都在努力辦理這些貸款，並為消費者提供極大的照顧。

Okay. Great. And then actually just going back to the gain on sale margin and the guidance. Just on the seasonality in 4Q, could we see the margins sort of at the midpoint or sort of not at the high end of the range? Or just any thoughts there?

好的。偉大的。然後實際上只是回到銷售利潤率和指導的收益。就第四季的季節性而言，我們是否可以看到利潤率處於範圍的中點或不在範圍的高端？或只是有什麼想法？

Yes. I mean, I give a range for a reason because I usually expect that it's going to be somewhere in the middle of the range, plus or minus, is how I always think about it. You are correct, though, in pointing out cyclicality. A lot of people don't understand if you're doing all refis, there's no cyclicality in the fourth quarter and first quarter.

是的。我的意思是，我給出一個範圍是有原因的，因為我通常期望它會在該範圍的中間某個位置，加或減，這是我一直思考的方式。不過，你指出週期性是正確的。很多人不明白，如果你都進行再融資，那麼第四季和第一季就沒有週期性了。

But in real business, mortgage business purchases, fourth and first quarter are slower quarters. And you saw it even -- if you look at our first quarter earlier this year. And so we expect it to be a little slower in the fourth and first quarter. That's why I guided to where I'm guiding. I expect us to meet guidance in all aspects of things, I always say, which I've done, I think, for 12 consecutive quarters and will continue to do so. So -- but yes, you are astute to point out that fourth quarter and first quarter are slow mortgage months or quarters. And then second and third quarter, especially when you're doing a lot of purchase, and we're obviously the largest purchaser in the country.

但在實際業務中，抵押貸款業務採購，第四季和第一季是較慢的季度。如果你看看今年早些時候我們的第一季度，你甚至會看到這一點。因此，我們預計第四季和第一季的成長速度會稍慢一些。這就是為什麼我引導到我引導的地方。我總是說，我希望我們在各個方面都能滿足指導要求，我想，我已經連續 12 個季度做到了這一點，並將繼續這樣做。所以，但是，是的，您很機敏地指出，第四季度和第一季是抵押貸款緩慢的月份或季度。然後是第二和第三季度，尤其是當你進行大量採購時，我們顯然是全國最大的採購商。

Your next question comes from the line of Eric Hagen from BTIG.

您的下一個問題來自 BTIG 的 Eric Hagen。

Maybe one more on the margins. Just want to get a sense for the competitiveness in the market just really at these rate levels and maybe whether you've been surprised by the stability in margins at these rate levels and even like why the broker channel might have more stable margins if rates stay kind of in this ballpark right now?

也許還有一個在邊緣。只是想了解在這些利率水平下市場的競爭力，也許您是否對這些利率水平下的利潤率穩定性感到驚訝，甚至喜歡為什麼如果利率保持不變，經紀商渠道可能會擁有更穩定的利潤率現在在這個球場上嗎？

Yes. So like I've said for years, I set the margins daily. So it's -- we make the decision what the margins are going to be. We control those, and we always will control the margins in a positive way. So we -- so it's not market-driven. It's not -- it's UWM-driven, and we're very involved with the details of it. And we try to set great pricing out for the brokers and help the brokers be competitive. But -- so the market doesn't dictate that as much. I know people -- you guys don't like to understand that or believe that, but that's just the reality is that every day, I look at the pricing, I set it with our capital markets team. Personally, I do it.

是的。就像我多年來所說的那樣，我每天都會設定利潤。所以，我們決定利潤率是多少。我們控制這些，並且我們始終會以積極的方式控制利潤。所以我們——所以它不是由市場驅動的。它不是——它是 UWM 驅動的，我們非常關注它的細節。我們嘗試為經紀商制定優惠的定價，幫助經紀商提高競爭力。但是——所以市場並沒有那麼多決定。我認識一些人——你們不喜歡理解或相信這一點，但這就是現實，我每天都會查看定價，是我與我們的資本市場團隊一起設定的。就我個人而言，我這樣做。

And we know where our margins are going to be. And so that's why I'm very confident saying 75 to 100, and that's what it will be again this quarter. And when the market changes, to your point, I think what you're asking, when the market changes and evolves, that range will change. Instead of 75 to 100, I might say, hey, 80 to 105 or 85 to 110 or eventually, I'll say, 100 to 125. And then that changes as the margins -- as the market changes. But when that's in this range, it's completely tied to what UWM does, and others will follow.

我們知道我們的利潤將在哪裡。這就是為什麼我非常有信心地說 75 比 100，這也是本季的情況。當市場發生變化時，就您的觀點而言，我認為您所問的是，當市場發生變化和發展時，該範圍將會改變。我可能會說，嘿，80 比105 或85 比110，或者最終，我會說，100 比125，而不是75 比100。然後，隨著利潤率的變化——隨著市場的變化，情況也會發生變化。但當它在這個範圍內時，它與 UWM 所做的事情完全相關，其他人也會效仿。

Right. I appreciate that. So how are you guys thinking about conditions in the MSR market right now? A lot of expectations for banks to be sellers of MSR and how you see the capacity of large bulk buyers in the market and their capacity to buy more and how that develops and really what you think those buyers might be sensitive to going forward?

正確的。我很感激。那麼，你們現在如何看待 MSR 市場的狀況呢？人們對銀行成為 MSR 的賣家抱有很多期望，您如何看待市場上大宗買家的能力以及他們購買更多商品的能力，以及這種情況如何發展，您認為這些買家對未來可能會敏感什麼？

Yes. So we've seen a very active market. And what we found actually, I have to do a little research, and Blake Kolo and his team do a great job at this, is realizing what our business is and who we are has made it, so our bids are maybe a little bit higher than others in the market. So we've seen a really great market. We get multiple bids anytime we bring something out. We get people usually bidding up on it, and it's really tough because we like to partner with people and be consistent with them. But a lot of people are looking for that product.

是的。所以我們看到了一個非常活躍的市場。實際上我們發現，我必須做一些研究，布萊克·科洛和他的團隊在這方面做得很好，意識到我們的業務是什麼以及我們是誰已經成功了，所以我們的出價可能會高一點比市場上的其他產品。所以我們看到了一個非常好的市場。每當我們推出產品時，我們都會收到多個出價。人們通常會出價，這真的很困難，因為我們喜歡與人們合作並與他們保持一致。但很多人都在尋找該產品。

And I think as this new year starts, people will be looking for the product again. If there's less originations out there, and there's less opportunity out there, the less people they have the low rate, and there's less people that are originating the current product. And so I think there's actually a really big market out there for MSR buying and for MSR selling as well, obviously. It's a supply and demand issue. I think we have a lot of the supply, and there's a lot of demand out there.

我認為隨著新的一年的開始，人們將再次尋找該產品。如果那裡的原創性越少，機會就越少，那麼他們的利率就越低，原創當前產品的人就越少。因此，我認為顯然，MSR 購買和 MSR 銷售實際上都有一個非常大的市場。這是一個供需問題。我認為我們有很多供應，而且有很多需求。

Your next question comes from the line of James Faucette from Morgan Stanley.

您的下一個問題來自摩根士丹利的 James Faucette。

This is actually Jeff Adelson on for James. Just noticed that the direct loan production costs were up 50% this quarter even though your originations were down a little bit. Just wondering if there's anything to highlight there as a driver of those costs this quarter.

這其實是傑夫·阿德爾森為詹姆斯代言的。剛剛注意到，儘管您的貸款來源略有下降，但本季的直接貸款生產成本上漲了 50%。只是想知道是否有什麼值得強調的因素作為本季這些成本的驅動因素。

Yes. So actually, 1% down. Is that correct, Andrew, you want to...

是的。所以實際上，下降了 1%。是嗎，安德魯，你想...

Yes. Part of that is the initiative for our affordable programs, our 1% down program. That's where most of the increase is there.

是的。其中一部分是我們的平價計劃，即我們的 1% 首付計劃。這就是大部分成長的地方。

So it's not tied to what you're asking because expense is something we're doing to help affordability, which FHFA, Fannie and Freddie are very supportive of. And so it's in that bucket, but that's not what it is. Our expenses are not up 50% on a loan-by-loan basis or product -- on a variable cost basis.

因此，這與您所要求的內容無關，因為費用是我們為提高負擔能力而採取的措施，FHFA、房利美和房地美都非常支持這一點。所以它就在那個桶子裡，但事實並非如此。我們的費用在逐筆貸款或產品的基礎上（以變動成本為基礎）不會增加 50%。

Understood. Okay. And then just -- there's been a few headlines recently about rate of loan repurchase request for the industry increasing from Fannie, Freddie. Just wondering if you guys are seeing anything there, what kind of impact you're expecting for the industry going forward. And I know your Ginnie repurchase eligible loans were up, but not necessarily related to that issue, something different. So just maybe just talk about that.

明白了。好的。最近有一些頭條新聞稱房利美、房地美對該行業的貸款回購請求率不斷增加。只是想知道你們是否在那裡看到了一些東西，你們期望對產業的未來產生什麼樣的影響。我知道你們的吉尼回購合格貸款有所增加，但不一定與問題相關，有些不同。所以也許只是談談這個。

Yes. I think this is a hot topic in the industry and to give credit to FHFA Director, Sandra Thompson does a great job, and she knows what's going on in the market. And she realized it after it's been brought to our attention. And I think Fannie and Freddie are making changes to be more aligned with what the industry expects and what FHFA expects. And so it's not been a real issue. It's been more of just same old thing. And I think actually, with some of the changes they're making, I think it will be even reduced even beyond what we've seen in the last 24 months.

是的。我認為這是該行業的熱門話題，值得稱讚的是 FHFA 總監 Sandra Thompson 做得很好，她知道市場上正在發生什麼。在引起我們注意後她意識到了這一點。我認為房利美和房地美正在做出改變，以更符合業界的期望和 FHFA 的期望。所以這不是一個真正的問題。這更像是同樣的老事情。我認為實際上，隨著他們正在做出的一些改變，我認為它的減少甚至會超出我們在過去 24 個月所看到的水平。

So I think it will be a positive change. Some of the stuff that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are doing because I think some of it got a little bit out of normal course because of some of the interpretations tied to COVID, if you want to get to the real details. But I think overall, it's not a big deal and it won't be a big deal going forward.

所以我認為這將是一個積極的變化。房利美和房地美正在做的一些事情是因為我認為，如果你想了解真正的細節，由於一些與新冠病毒相關的解釋，其中一些事情有點不正常。但我認為整體而言，這並不是什麼大問題，未來也不會是什麼大問題。

(Operator Instructions)

（操作員說明）

Your next question comes from the line of Kevin Barker from Piper Sandler.

您的下一個問題來自 Piper Sandler 的 Kevin Barker。

Great. And just a follow-up on some of the affordability comments that you made. I noticed you moved down in credit score to the 580 from 620. Is that move partly due to trying to expand the credit box and push to make more affordable loans? Can you just maybe give some more color on that move?

偉大的。這只是您提出的一些可負擔性評論的後續行動。我注意到你們的信用評分從 620 下降到了 580。這項變更的部分原因是試圖擴大信貸範圍並推動發放更實惠的貸款嗎？你能為這項舉動提供更多的色彩嗎？

Yes, that's not really tied to what the move was tied to. The real issue is on loans that brokers are doing is they want them to come to UWM. The biggest request I get is they want to send 100% of business to us. They want to use UWM. And so when they -- that's why we roll out some non-QM product. That's why we look at different things in Fannie and Freddie. We roll out products because our brokers want to use UWM because they know if they use UWM, they'll get referrals from the real estate agents and the consumers because we make the process faster and easier.

是的，這與此舉的具體內容並沒有真正的關聯。真正的問題是經紀人正在做的貸款是他們希望他們來到 UWM。我收到的最大的要求是他們希望將 100% 的業務轉移給我們。他們想使用 UWM。因此，當他們 - 這就是我們推出一些非品質管理產品的原因。這就是為什麼我們對房利美和房地美有不同的看法。我們推出產品是因為我們的經紀人想要使用 UWM，因為他們知道如果他們使用 UWM，他們會得到房地產經紀人和消費者的推薦，因為我們讓這個過程更快、更容易。

And so that's where a lot of our product expansions have been over the last 2 to 3 years, is just helping brokers with loans that they're already doing and not really tied to -- of course, we do a lot of stuff on affordability, which that 1% down program is a program that we're putting a lot of money towards to help FHFA, Fannie and Freddie hit their affordability goals with VLIP and LIP programs.

因此，這就是我們在過去 2 到 3 年裡進行的許多產品擴展，只是幫助經紀人提供他們已經在做的貸款，但並沒有真正與之掛鉤——當然，我們在負擔能力方面做了很多事情，我們投入大量資金用於1% 首付計劃，以幫助FHFA、房利美和房地美透過VLIP 和LIP 計劃實現其負擔能力目標。

But at the same time, we're focused on making sure we take care of our brokers. And we'll continue to increase wallet share and dominate the client experience for the brokers because that matters because we know that a lot of these loans that brokers are doing, they're going to be refinancing the clients here in the next 1 year or 2 years, and we want to make sure they have an amazing experience. If they use other lenders, quite honestly, the experience isn't the same. Thus, they don't get the loan back, and that's why people want to use UWM.

但同時，我們致力於確保照顧好我們的經紀人。我們將繼續增加錢包份額並主導經紀人的客戶體驗，因為這很重要，因為我們知道經紀人正在做的許多貸款，他們將在未來一年或一年內為客戶再融資2 年，我們希望確保他們擁有令人驚嘆的體驗。老實說，如果他們使用其他貸方，體驗就不一樣了。因此，他們無法收回貸款，這就是人們想要使用 UWM 的原因。

Okay. Great. And then just going back to the servicing and some of the MSR sales, how much of a servicing portfolio do you sell in the third quarter? Sorry if I missed it in your commentary. And then I noticed that the weighted average coupon drifted higher as well, went to 4.2% from 3.84%, which would seem that it might be lower-coupon MSRs that you're selling. What the average coupon was on the servicing that you are selling and how much it was?

好的。偉大的。然後回到服務和一些 MSR 銷售，您在第三季銷售了多少服務組合？抱歉，如果我在你的評論中錯過了它。然後我注意到加權平均優惠券也上升了，從 3.84% 上升到 4.2%，這看起來你銷售的可能是較低優惠券的 MSR。您所銷售的服務的平均優惠券是多少？是多少？

Yes, the average weight on our rates, weighted average coupon is a little higher. I think that's mostly because we do a lot of loans right now. So we're doing $29 billion of business at 7.5%. That's going to obviously drive your average WAC up, so it's got nothing to do with it. When we do some service and sales, we sold some higher WAC and some lower WAC, it's all tied to we originate a lot of loans. So you won't see other lenders' numbers move as much because they don't do any business, mortgage business that we're in. So that's kind of what we're seeing.

是的，我們的利率、加權平均優惠券的平均權重稍高。我認為這主要是因為我們現在已經發放了大量貸款。因此，我們的業務價值為 290 億美元，成長率為 7.5%。這顯然會提高你的平均 WAC，所以與此無關。當我們做一些服務和銷售時，我們出售了一些較高的WAC和一些較低的WAC，這都與我們發放大量貸款有關。所以你不會看到其他貸款人的數字變化那麼大，因為他們不做任何業務，我們從事的抵押貸款業務。這就是我們所看到的。

So what percent of your portfolio now has -- is greater than a 5% WAC or coupon? And then which may present an opportunity to refinance so we do see a little bit of softening of rates in the future?

那麼，您的投資組合中現在有多少百分比的 WAC 或優惠券大於 5%？那麼這可能會提供再融資的機會，因此我們確實會看到未來利率會有所軟化？

The loans that we're doing now usually have a WAC over 5%. I don't -- look, I just -- sort of random arbitrary number, 5%, I don't know why you picked that number, but that's got nothing to do with what we're looking at. So the loans we do now are higher than 5%. They're actually probably all like 6.5%, 7%, 7.5%, even 8% rates. And loans that we did before are usually lower because that's what happened with rates. I think you follow the market, so there's really no data there that would make sense to go through.

我們現在做的貸款通常WAC超過5%。我不——看，我只是——某種隨機的數字，5%，我不知道你為什麼選擇這個數字，但這與我們正在研究的內容無關。所以我們現在做的貸款都是高於5%的。實際上可能都是 6.5%、7%、7.5%，甚至 8% 的利率。我們之前發放的貸款通常較低，因為利率就是這樣。我認為你關注的是市場，所以那裡確實沒有任何有意義的數據可供瀏覽。

I'm sorry, maybe I misasked question. It was more about how big -- the servicing portfolio, how much of it is the higher WAC or higher average coupon? That was just more about servicing portfolio, not...

抱歉，也許我問錯問題了。更多的是關於服務組合有多大，其中有多少是較高的 WAC 或較高的平均息票？這更多的是關於服務組合，而不是...

Once again, the loans we originate are higher. The loans that we had from years ago were lower. We got a lot of loans. I don't have like the exact breakdown of them. This is not relevant in any aspect of the business. So -- but thank you for the question.

我們發放的貸款再次更高。我們幾年前的貸款較低。我們得到了很多貸款。我沒有它們的確切分類。這與業務的任何方面都不相關。所以——但是謝謝你的提問。

Your next question comes from the line of Mikhail Goberman from JMP Securities.

您的下一個問題來自 JMP 證券公司的 Mikhail Goberman。

Just kind of a hypothetical scenario question from my end here. And definitely, hopefully, the scenario won't come to pass, but if we do get some sort of a consumer recession in the, let's say, middle part of next year, how do you guys see that affecting the industry competitively? And more specifically for United Wholesale, how do you guys see that affecting the company operationally, financially, in terms of volumes, margins and the MSR book?

這只是我在這裡提出的假設場景問題。當然，希望這種情況不會發生，但如果我們確實在明年中期出現某種消費者衰退，你們認為這會如何影響產業的競爭？更具體地說，對於 United Wholesale，你們如何看待這對公司營運、財務、銷售、利潤和 MSR 帳簿的影響？

Yes. So obviously, in almost throughout history, and you can track this and check the data, recessions usually are led out of recessions with lower interest rates with the mortgage market has been really successful. So if there was a recession, I actually would argue that it's actually going to be really good for our business because they'll will lower rates. And then lower rates mean a lot of refi activity, even more purchases, more people will sell their houses, more opportunity.

是的。顯然，幾乎在整個歷史中，你可以追蹤這一點並檢查數據，衰退通常是透過較低的利率走出衰退的，而抵押貸款市場確實很成功。因此，如果出現經濟衰退，我實際上會認為這實際上對我們的業務非常有利，因為他們會降低利率。較低的利率意味著大量的再融資活動，甚至更多的購買，更多的人會出售他們的房子，更多的機會。

And so there's really no negative to that if that happens. I think what you've seen in the last 2 years is the worst it can be for mortgage lenders. And a lot of mortgage lenders have gone out of business. A lot of them lose money all the time. A lot of them have laid off a bunch of people. And we are the strongest mortgage company in the country. And we've made a lot of money, obviously, but we also are hiring. We're prepared for the next opportunity.

因此，如果發生這種情況，實際上並沒有什麼負面影響。我認為過去兩年對於抵押貸款機構來說是最糟糕的情況。許多抵押貸款機構已經倒閉。他們中的很多人一直在賠錢。他們中的很多人都解雇了很多人。我們是全國最強大的抵押貸款公司。顯然，我們賺了很多錢，但我們也在招募。我們已準備好迎接下一次機會。

And so when that opportunity comes, whether it's because of a recession or because the Fed lowers rates or because of inflation or because of some war or whatever may happen, when rates do drop, other lenders will do really well. But we've all seen now a glimpse into the future of what lenders are the best in these markets. And so whether a recession or whatever happens, we'll be prepared for the lower rate. And in the meantime, we'll continue to win and to be successful as you've seen quarter after quarter going forward. So we appreciate it. Thank you for the question.

因此，當機會到來時，無論是因為經濟衰退，還是因為聯準會降低利率，或者因為通貨膨脹，或者因為某些戰爭或可能發生的任何事情，當利率確實下降時，其他貸款機構都會表現得很好。但我們現在都已經看到了這些市場上最好的貸款機構的未來。因此，無論是經濟衰退還是發生任何情況，我們都會為較低的利率做好準備。同時，我們將繼續獲勝並取得成功，正如您在未來一個又一個季度所看到的那樣。所以我們很感激。感謝你的提問。

That will wrap up the Q&A portion. I would like to turn the call back over to Mat Ishbia for some closing remarks.

問答部分就到此結束。我想將電話轉回給馬特·伊什比亞（Mat Ishbia），讓其發表一些結束語。

Thank you for the time today. We appreciate you all being on the call, and look forward to another great quarter in the fourth quarter, and we'll talk to you guys soon. Have a great day. Thank you.

謝謝你今天的時間。我們感謝大家的來電，並期待第四季又一個精彩的季度，我們很快就會與你們交談。祝你有美好的一天。謝謝。

This concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect.

今天的電話會議到此結束。您現在可以斷開連線。